Do you track your “Happy Spends” against your “Sad Spends”? Dr. Elizabeth Dunn of Happy Money will have you doing that and more with her money mental wellness tips. Don’t you feel better already?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn’s 5 Money Tips to achieve financial wellness

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I spend my day-to-day work life thinking about what makes people happy and how we can make people happier. In particular, I've been really interested in how we can harness money as a tool to increase our happiness. I think the sort of overarching idea that I've been arguing throughout my career is that how much money we have actually matters less than what it is we do with it. So making more careful choices around not just how we invest our money, how we save our money-- which we think so much about-- but also how we spend our money. Can we spend it in ways that genuinely make us happier, rather than just sort of squandering it on the things that daily life tempts us with? All the things we see in sort of advertisements, things we see other people buying. Instead, can we chart our own path and find the kinds of purchases that really fill us with happiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is such a great concept and one that I should mention you do cover in your book, Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending. All right, let's get to your five tips for financial wellness. Now some of these might sound familiar, but the way that you present them is going to really resonate I think, with our audience, because you also have the data to back them up and I think that's going to really motivate a lot of us to put these into action in our lives. Okay. The first one is normalize talking about money, which we hear a lot, but you've got a different spin on it.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. This really comes from our research at Happy Money where we've seen that people in debt especially really want a chance to hear from other people that have been through that journey too. They want to know how did you get through this? How did you pay off your debt? What challenges did you overcome? We're used to talking about money maybe on the brighter side of investments and savings and so forth, but I think it's really important that we start sharing our financial lows along with our financial highs just to normalize talking about money and just taking away some of the stigma that surrounds debt. We really encourage people to talk about and think about what it is that a rich life means to them. So I would argue that rich really is not about what's in your bank account. It's about what makes you happy and fulfilled in meaningful and sustainable ways. One thing we see is that over and above how much income people earn, it really matters how they think about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Your second money tip is to treat money as a tool, but again, you are reframing the conversation here.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. So I think very often, people treat money as an end in itself. So much of financial planning, for example, surrounds how to get more money. So if we shift the conversation to be about how to get more happiness, then we start thinking of money not as an end in itself, but as a tool, kind of pathway for getting to happiness. We do know that people who have more money tend to be happier than those who have less, but this is mainly because those people with more money tend to be more able to meet their expenses and stay out of debt. In reality, the amount of money that you have really matters less than what you do with it and the key here is figuring out how to use money as a tool to boost your mental health and happiness.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This holds true whether you have a little money or a lot of money. In some of our recent data, we're seeing just how consistently these ideas hold up across the whole spectrum of income. For example, we know from research that people tend to get more satisfaction from buying time. For example, buying some help with childcare or a meal delivery service can really pay dividends in terms of life satisfaction. And from our latest data from Happy Money, we're actually seeing that this relationship holds true again, even for people who are living paycheck to paycheck, kind of struggling to make ends meet.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
It's quite a consistent principal and even more consistent, we see that people who give, who use their money to benefit others, tend to experience greater happiness. This is what we see, remarkably, even for people below the poverty line. This relationship holds true all the way across the income spectrum. At the end of the day, that's really why we created Happy Money, which is to help people use their money in ways that support their wellbeing and happiness and also allow them to build healthier and more mindful habits more broadly around their finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because some of the examples you just gave like ordering in dinner are things that we generally think of as splurges and things that we can cut out when we're trying to get control of our budgets, but we shouldn't maybe make those assumptions.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's exactly right. In our research, we see that many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress, a lot of time stress... Buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has this changed during the pandemic? Do you have any data on that? I'm curious.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. We're just beginning to fully explore this question of how these principles might've been altered through the pandemic. But I think a particularly interesting one to focus on at this stage of the pandemic is giving, because we know that many people did not give as much money as they usually would to charity during the pandemic. Many charities are really hurting right now, and so as we kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel and maybe experience some gratitude over having made it this far and still being alive, still kind of being okay. I think this is a wonderful time to pay it forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's move on to the third one. I think this is my favorite one. Track your happy spends versus sad spends.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. So I always tell people to track what you spend and how it makes you feel. So people are used to tracking their spending to try to restrain their spending or know how much they've got, but I say add on how it makes you feel so you can actually decide what's worth it to you and what's not. So really pay attention to how these purchases affect your mood and then you can start to identify what I call happy spends, these spends that really make you happy. And sad spends, maybe things that used to make you happy but aren't really paying off in terms of your happiness anymore.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This is going to help you ask yourself what actually brings you real joy and what do you regret by the next day? I would argue that when you shift your spending toward what makes you truly happy... That might be paying off debt, or savoring a treat, helping a friend donating to charity. That can enable you to make better, happier decisions around your own wellbeing and it's also a great opportunity to start thinking about investing in your future self. What are the purchases that make you happy when you first acquire them, but also still continue to provide happiness dividends going forward. I think that's a really fascinating issue. Helping people gain better self insight into what makes them happy starts with just paying attention in the moment to what's providing you joy and what's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
I was so glad to see this next one on the list because it really resonates with so many of us coming out of this pandemic. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis for me on celebrate along the way, because we really don't know what's going to happen.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. I mean, this experience of the past year has really made me appreciate the value of just celebrating what's good in the moment. So, I recommend when people are tackling a big financial challenge or big life challenge, start with small manageable changes. Achievable changes. And then do take the time to celebrate those little milestones along the way. So it isn't necessarily about just achieving your final goal and that's the only time you should celebrate. Celebrate each piece of it. So break your big goals into more bite sized pieces and these small steps are going to be a lot easier to form into sticky sorts of habits. Just to give some examples, you could start with little changes like saving $10 a week, or maybe giving $15 to a charitable organization that needs your support, or try putting an extra $50 a month toward your credit card debt.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
These are potentially more achievable changes that over time can actually have a really big impact on your overall happiness. So what we've seen in our data at Happy Money is that even building up a little bit of savings can go a long way in terms of people's life satisfaction. So we see that people with just $400 in emergency savings reported over 13% higher levels of life satisfaction compared to people who didn't have that cushion.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're removing that anxiety, right?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I think that's a huge part of it. So we see that when people have savings, it kind of acts as this cushion that protects them from some of the shocks of unexpected events in daily life and can also just reassure people that they're going to be a little bit insulated. I think that's one of the big lessons for me from the pandemic because we just don't know what the future holds. Save up some money now so you're ready for whatever surprises the future might have in store.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this last one, I think, is just so essential and I hope that people take the time and really take it seriously. And that is to take the time to deal with your feelings around money... Because we often get so caught up in life's day-to-day, we never stop and kind of examine how we're approaching money.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. And I think this is probably the most important tip. That we focus so much on the sort of objective financial challenges surrounding money itself but we have to also deal with the feelings that are hovering around those challenges. So thinking about this, we decided last year to introduce a new money, mindfulness and stress reduction program that we call Peace. Like peace and love. This free course is really neat because it incorporates cognitive behavioral therapy and psychology to help people understand and reduce the impact that financial stress is having on their lives. The fact that it's completely free was super important to me. This is something we are giving away to just help people deal with the financial stress that the past year has created.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
What we did was really to try to think about how could busy people fit this into their lives? As somebody who's got a full-time job and a kid I thought, 'Could I make this work even for me?' Each exercise is really broken down into these small digestible bites and everything is personalized to the individual and really designed to build skills for addressing stress levels. And going beyond just combating stress, we also wanted to think about the positive sides. So we've got a whole week that's devoted to just helping people promote more positive thoughts and actions. To learn how to amplify their positive emotions and get more joy out of the tiny pleasures of daily life like sitting in the sunshine or eating a piece of chocolate.

Follow Dr. Elizabeth Dunn!

• Instagram - @happymoney

• Twitter - @DunnHappyLab

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/happy-money/

• Website - https://happymoney.com/company/

• Happy Money’s FREE course - Peace - https://peace.happymoney.com/peace
  
  
  
  

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grown-up for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
In our research, we see that people, many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress-- a lot of time stress-- buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being grown up is hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends! I hope everyone is having fun this summer and feeling healthy and most of all, feeling happier these days. A lot of things affect our moods. I know for me, I always feel better when the weather is good and there is scientific evidence that for some people, including me, sunshine and warmth really does have an impact on our moods. There's also evidence that what's going on with our money can have a measurable impact, a scientifically measurable impact on our mood and yes, our happiness. So, okay. For most of us, it doesn't take a scientific survey or research or whatever to tell us that if we're worried about money, we're not happy. But stick with me friends, because if we understand the science, we can then take it to the next level and implement real strategies to boost our financial wellness.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for example, a lot of the time, things like meal delivery plans are framed as something that maybe we should feel a little guilty about. We see it as a splurge, a luxury, and certainly discretionary when we're having budgeting discussions. But here's the thing. Apparently, things that buy us time are scientifically proven to be good for our mental health and could actually be one of the best uses of our money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I found the perfect guest to tell us more about all of that and also to teach us how we can incorporate good money habits that lead to happiness into our lives. Dr. Elizabeth Dunn is a professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of British Columbia and the Chief Science Officer at Happy Money, a Los Angeles based FinTech company. Now Dunn is also the author of Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending which she co authored with Michael Norton of Harvard Business School. Dr. Dunn conducts experimental research on happiness, exploring how people can optimize their use of time, money and technology to promote well-being. Her TED 2019 Talk on generosity and happiness, has been viewed over 3 million times and was selected by TED as one of the top 10 Talks of that year 2019. She is amazing and we are in for a treat. Here is Dr. Elizabeth Dunn. Dr. Elizabeth Dunn, you are a financial grownup. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, okay. Before we get to... You're going to be talking about five tips for financial wellness and improving our mental health, especially as it relates to money. I have to ask you, you call yourself a happiness researcher. Tell us about that.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Well, I spend my day-to-day work life thinking about what makes people happy and how we can make people happier. In particular, I've been really interested in how we can harness money as a tool to increase our happiness. I think the sort of overarching idea that I've been arguing throughout my career is that how much money we have actually matters less than what it is we do with it. So making more careful choices around not just how we invest our money, how we save our money-- which we think so much about-- but also how we spend our money. Can we spend it in ways that genuinely make us happier, rather than just sort of squandering it on the things that daily life tempts us with? All the things we see in sort of advertisements, things we see other people buying. Instead, can we chart our own path and find the kinds of purchases that really fill us with happiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is such a great concept and one that I should mention you do cover in your book, Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending. All right, let's get to your five tips for financial wellness. Now some of these might sound familiar, but the way that you present them is going to really resonate I think, with our audience, because you also have the data to back them up and I think that's going to really motivate a lot of us to put these into action in our lives. Okay. The first one is normalize talking about money, which we hear a lot, but you've got a different spin on it.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. This really comes from our research at Happy Money where we've seen that people in debt especially really want a chance to hear from other people that have been through that journey too. They want to know how did you get through this? How did you pay off your debt? What challenges did you overcome? We're used to talking about money maybe on the brighter side of investments and savings and so forth, but I think it's really important that we start sharing our financial lows along with our financial highs just to normalize talking about money and just taking away some of the stigma that surrounds debt. We really encourage people to talk about and think about what it is that a rich life means to them. So I would argue that rich really is not about what's in your bank account. It's about what makes you happy and fulfilled in meaningful and sustainable ways. One thing we see is that over and above how much income people earn, it really matters how they think about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Your second money tip is to treat money as a tool, but again, you are reframing the conversation here.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. So I think very often, people treat money as an end in itself. So much of financial planning, for example, surrounds how to get more money. So if we shift the conversation to be about how to get more happiness, then we start thinking of money not as an end in itself, but as a tool, kind of pathway for getting to happiness. We do know that people who have more money tend to be happier than those who have less, but this is mainly because those people with more money tend to be more able to meet their expenses and stay out of debt. In reality, the amount of money that you have really matters less than what you do with it and the key here is figuring out how to use money as a tool to boost your mental health and happiness.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This holds true whether you have a little money or a lot of money. In some of our recent data, we're seeing just how consistently these ideas hold up across the whole spectrum of income. For example, we know from research that people tend to get more satisfaction from buying time. For example, buying some help with childcare or a meal delivery service can really pay dividends in terms of life satisfaction. And from our latest data from Happy Money, we're actually seeing that this relationship holds true again, even for people who are living paycheck to paycheck, kind of struggling to make ends meet.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
It's quite a consistent principal and even more consistent, we see that people who give, who use their money to benefit others, tend to experience greater happiness. This is what we see, remarkably, even for people below the poverty line. This relationship holds true all the way across the income spectrum. At the end of the day, that's really why we created Happy Money, which is to help people use their money in ways that support their wellbeing and happiness and also allow them to build healthier and more mindful habits more broadly around their finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because some of the examples you just gave like ordering in dinner are things that we generally think of as splurges and things that we can cut out when we're trying to get control of our budgets, but we shouldn't maybe make those assumptions.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's exactly right. In our research, we see that many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress, a lot of time stress... Buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has this changed during the pandemic? Do you have any data on that? I'm curious.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. We're just beginning to fully explore this question of how these principles might've been altered through the pandemic. But I think a particularly interesting one to focus on at this stage of the pandemic is giving, because we know that many people did not give as much money as they usually would to charity during the pandemic. Many charities are really hurting right now, and so as we kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel and maybe experience some gratitude over having made it this far and still being alive, still kind of being okay. I think this is a wonderful time to pay it forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's move on to the third one. I think this is my favorite one. Track your happy spends versus sad spends.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. So I always tell people to track what you spend and how it makes you feel. So people are used to tracking their spending to try to restrain their spending or know how much they've got, but I say add on how it makes you feel so you can actually decide what's worth it to you and what's not. So really pay attention to how these purchases affect your mood and then you can start to identify what I call happy spends, these spends that really make you happy. And sad spends, maybe things that used to make you happy but aren't really paying off in terms of your happiness anymore.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This is going to help you ask yourself what actually brings you real joy and what do you regret by the next day? I would argue that when you shift your spending toward what makes you truly happy... That might be paying off debt, or savoring a treat, helping a friend donating to charity. That can enable you to make better, happier decisions around your own wellbeing and it's also a great opportunity to start thinking about investing in your future self. What are the purchases that make you happy when you first acquire them, but also still continue to provide happiness dividends going forward. I think that's a really fascinating issue. Helping people gain better self insight into what makes them happy starts with just paying attention in the moment to what's providing you joy and what's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
I was so glad to see this next one on the list because it really resonates with so many of us coming out of this pandemic. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis for me on celebrate along the way, because we really don't know what's going to happen.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. I mean, this experience of the past year has really made me appreciate the value of just celebrating what's good in the moment. So, I recommend when people are tackling a big financial challenge or big life challenge, start with small manageable changes. Achievable changes. And then do take the time to celebrate those little milestones along the way. So it isn't necessarily about just achieving your final goal and that's the only time you should celebrate. Celebrate each piece of it. So break your big goals into more bite sized pieces and these small steps are going to be a lot easier to form into sticky sorts of habits. Just to give some examples, you could start with little changes like saving $10 a week, or maybe giving $15 to a charitable organization that needs your support, or try putting an extra $50 a month toward your credit card debt.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
These are potentially more achievable changes that over time can actually have a really big impact on your overall happiness. So what we've seen in our data at Happy Money is that even building up a little bit of savings can go a long way in terms of people's life satisfaction. So we see that people with just $400 in emergency savings reported over 13% higher levels of life satisfaction compared to people who didn't have that cushion.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're removing that anxiety, right?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I think that's a huge part of it. So we see that when people have savings, it kind of acts as this cushion that protects them from some of the shocks of unexpected events in daily life and can also just reassure people that they're going to be a little bit insulated. I think that's one of the big lessons for me from the pandemic because we just don't know what the future holds. Save up some money now so you're ready for whatever surprises the future might have in store.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this last one, I think, is just so essential and I hope that people take the time and really take it seriously. And that is to take the time to deal with your feelings around money... Because we often get so caught up in life's day-to-day, we never stop and kind of examine how we're approaching money.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. And I think this is probably the most important tip. That we focus so much on the sort of objective financial challenges surrounding money itself but we have to also deal with the feelings that are hovering around those challenges. So thinking about this, we decided last year to introduce a new money, mindfulness and stress reduction program that we call Peace. Like peace and love. This free course is really neat because it incorporates cognitive behavioral therapy and psychology to help people understand and reduce the impact that financial stress is having on their lives. The fact that it's completely free was super important to me. This is something we are giving away to just help people deal with the financial stress that the past year has created.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
What we did was really to try to think about how could busy people fit this into their lives? As somebody who's got a full-time job and a kid I thought, 'Could I make this work even for me?' Each exercise is really broken down into these small digestible bites and everything is personalized to the individual and really designed to build skills for addressing stress levels. And going beyond just combating stress, we also wanted to think about the positive sides. So we've got a whole week that's devoted to just helping people promote more positive thoughts and actions. To learn how to amplify their positive emotions and get more joy out of the tiny pleasures of daily life like sitting in the sunshine or eating a piece of chocolate.

Bobbi Rebell:
We so needed all of these reminders. Where can people follow up with you and then follow you on all the socials?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Well, my number one tip would be to go over to happymoney.com\peace. There they can find more about our Peace program, this free six week program to help people decrease their stress levels. They can follow me on Twitter. I'm @DunnHappyLab. I would also just suggest checking out Happy Money more broadly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you feeling happier? Let's do a quick review of some of the concepts here. Okay. First of all, we want to make sure that we actually talk about money with other people. Not to other people by the way, with other people. And it doesn't mean revealing your personal data. It's more like finding comfort in the discussions and taking the stress out of mutual money decisions. So for example, if you make plans with friends to go out, think carefully not just about making sure the place that you go fits your budget, but also fits their budget. So one way to do this is to say that you're going to take control and you'll plan the event or the dining out or whatever you're doing, but give them a few choices. Make sure they're at kind of different price points and point that out to them and maybe in a casual way, be like, "We could splurge and do this, or we could be more budget friendly and do this," or somewhere in between. And you can gauge the reaction from that. It takes away the awkwardness.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the fact that Dr. Dunn talks about treating money as a tool, but not as an end in and of itself. So let's focus on how to get more happiness and how money can get us there. Letting go of the guilt when you buy time to boost happiness. So yeah, hire that babysitter and go on date night. I didn't do it a lot, but maybe I should have. All right track how you spend and how it makes you feel. This is going to help you identify happy spends versus sad spends. I love the way she puts that. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis on celebrating the milestones along the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
And finally, take the time to deal with your feelings about money. By the way, if you're looking for more info about happiness, definitely check out my recent episode with Meaghan Murphy, where we talk about specific ways to be happier and make sure to also read Meaghan's book, Your Fully Charged Life, which is a great summer beach read. You'll love the cover by the way, it's so... The cover itself makes you happy.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you enjoy this episode, I would love your help. Make sure you are following it on the platform of your choice and make sure you share it with friends. One easy way to do that is just take a screenshot and post it on your social media and of course, please tag me so I can thank you and I can also share it as well. Growing the show is really hard and your help means the world to me. On Instagram, by the way, I'm @bobbirebell1. B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L and then the number one. I highly recommend Dr. Dunn's free Peace course. So go to our show notes at bobbirebell.com under podcast for details. I also provide summaries and full transcripts of the show in the show notes. So please definitely use that resource. It's there for you. It's also free. And of course, we are so thankful and so happy that Dr. Elizabeth Dunn was able to join us and help us all be happy financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by [Steve Stewart 00:18:04]. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by [Ashley Wall 00:18:09]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts . Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Anne-Lyse, author of Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids, shares her money tips for home buyers as well as her experiences and lessons to not get taken advantage of in business- especially from people you think you can trust.

Anne-Lyse’s Money Story

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure, absolutely. When my husband and I were getting ready to buy a first home, we were looking in a specific neighborhood. And after a little while we found our home. And we went through the normal process to get a loan. We got a home inspection, and we were excited. We were going to become homeowners. We had our first child. Then we had two other kids. And one day, we decided to go out of town for the weekend.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
As first-time homeowners, we didn't know that when you leave, even if it's for a couple of days, it's probably a good idea to shut down the water at your house. So we came back to a...

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, just pause right there. I don't think a lot of people do know that, because that's a big tip right there. We live in an apartment. We don't shut off all of our water. I don't even know if that's possible in an apartment, but this is certainly news to me. When you leave a house, you're supposed to turn off the whole water system. Not just not leave a faucet running.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes. It's advice to shut off the water system, and we didn't know until this happened to us. When we came back, our house was... I mean, the main floor, which was the kitchen, there was water damage. It had gone all the way down to our basement. We had to redo the entire main level of the floors. We had to redo the basement. And it all happened because the water line connected to the dishwasher, there was an issue there. And then we were out of town for a couple of days. So by the time we came back, it was a complete mess.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had to move out of our house for about I want to say six weeks. At the time, we had twin babies and a three-year-old. It took a while for the house to be renovated. We stayed in temporary housing for a little bit. And luckily, our insurance company covered most of the costs, but we found out that they weren't going to renew our policy. Two lessons there. The first one is, well, first of all, make sure that you shut off your water when you are leaving for more than a day.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And then the second one is before signing up for insurance, you talk to your insurance company and understand their policies. Because what we found out is the prior year, there was hailstorm in our neighborhood and our roof was damaged. The insurance company had replaced our roof, so that was two claims in two years. But those were the only claims we've had in about, I think, four years. The policy was if you have two claims in the past five years, well, you need to find a new insurance company.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And even though those were the only things that we've ever had, we had a really hard time finding another company to cover our insurance. As a result of that, our premium went up by, I think, five or six times. My advice is make sure that you understand the policies that your insurance company has. And also like for us, when we finally got out of that five-year range, we signed up for a company that allowed two incidents to happen without basically cutting you off after five years.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
So now we have a company that will let you have two incidents in two, three years as opposed to five.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one thinks about that kind of thing, so I think that's a great lesson. What other lessons do you have as a first time home buyer for first time home buyers?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When we went through the process to get our loan approved, we went through the inspection. There was some initial structural damage that had been fixed by the previous owner, and we received a letter from the engineer. The engineer came back and provided a letter to say that everything was back in order. But when it was time for us to sell our home I want to say five, six years later, we were in the process of getting everything done. We had an offer on the table.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one. It turns out that the structural damage was not fixed. It was a much bigger problem than we thought, and the buyer pulled their offer. It was the same structural engineer that we had hired a couple of months prior to make sure that everything was back on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think here the lesson is, and nothing against real estate investors, but when you do buy a home, just consider bringing in your own structural engineer. But when you do buy from an investor, pay even more attention to everything that's going on within the house. Because in this situation, they didn't really fix the problem. They put a bandaid on it and it got worse with time. As a result of that, we ended up selling the house for $100,000 less than we were expected to.

Bobbi Rebell:
It was the same inspector, so he changed his report?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
It wasn't an inspector. It was a structural engineer. The inspector cleared the house, but he recommended that we get a letter from the structural engineer that had done the work. The structural engineer came back, provided a report. But then a few years down the line when we were getting ready to sell the home, we hired another engineer to make sure that we were on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When the buyer asked that we provided the number of the engineer, we didn't have a problem because we knew that everything was good. But the engineer came back and gave them a report, refused to show us a report saying that we had to also pay the fee so that they would give us the report. And after that, the buyer just walked away and we hired another company. And that's when we realized that no, it was going to cost a lot more to fix the problem.

Bobbi Rebell:
The same structural engineer changed his story?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you confront them about this?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, when this happened, he was like, "Well, I came probably..." I think it was maybe six months or a year prior things changed, so we couldn't really prove that he had given us a different scenario. He had recommended that we do work. We did the work. After that, he refused to show us the report. To this day, I haven't seen the report that he gave to the buyer.

Anne-Lyse’s Money Lesson + Money Tip

I think the tip for us is if you do buy a house that is a preexisting home, it's not a bad idea to go one step further than just hiring a home inspector, getting a structural engineer. In our case, I think it would have been better to get two different engineers so we could make an educated decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which seems expensive in the short-term, but clearly it costs you in the long-term not doing that, right?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Exactly. I think I would have gladly paid the extra $500 and save $100,000.

Follow Anne-Lyse!

• Instagram - @annelysewealth

• Facebook - @annelysewealth

• Twitter - @annelysewealth

• Pinterest - @annelysewealth

• Website - http://dreamoflegacy.com

• Book - Dream of Legacy

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have this solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates, if you can't decide. Use code "grownup" for a 15% off your first order.

Bobbi Rebell:
Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had an offer on the table. We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you wondering what that surprise was? Well, get ready to learn so much in this episode with Anne-Lyse. She has a wealth coach, a writer, and host of The Dreamers Podcast. She's also the founder of dreamoflegacy.com, a platform dedicated to inspiring millennials to build wealth with purpose, as well as the author of Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview, Anne-Lyse is very honest about the mistakes that she and her husband made with their home and all the grownup responsibilities that came with residential ownership. And here's the thing, even though she felt she should have done certain things that might have saved her from a lot of financial pain, the so-called mistakes were things that frankly all of us do, or in some cases, don't do. Please listen carefully because I don't want anyone else to get hurt the way she and her family did.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now later in the interview, things get even more real when Anne-Lyse shares details of how her father lost everything he had worked for, and she mentions it in the book, but she doesn't go into a lot of details. In our interview, I was really moved that she felt comfortable enough to share the details that weren't revealed in the book, and I am truly grateful for it. You are all going to benefit from it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Listening to this interview will be time very well spent. Here is Anne-Lyse. Anne-Lyse, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Hi, Bobbi. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm excited to talk in a few minutes about your book, Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids. But first, I wanted you to come on and talk about your experience buying a new home and sharing some of your tips for new home buyers, because that is something so many people are doing right now. Give us some context though first, Anne-Lyse. Tell us what happened to you and then we'll get to your tips.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure, absolutely. When my husband and I were getting ready to buy a first home, we were looking in a specific neighborhood. And after a little while we found our home. And we went through the normal process to get a loan. We got a home inspection, and we were excited. We were going to become homeowners. We had our first child. Then we had two other kids. And one day, we decided to go out of town for the weekend.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
As first-time homeowners, we didn't know that when you leave, even if it's for a couple of days, it's probably a good idea to shut down the water at your house. So we came back to a...

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, just pause right there. I don't think a lot of people do know that, because that's a big tip right there. We live in an apartment. We don't shut off all of our water. I don't even know if that's possible in an apartment, but this is certainly news to me. When you leave a house, you're supposed to turn off the whole water system. Not just not leave a faucet running.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes. It's advice to shut off the water system, and we didn't know until this happened to us. When we came back, our house was... I mean, the main floor, which was the kitchen, there was water damage. It had gone all the way down to our basement. We had to redo the entire main level of the floors. We had to redo the basement. And it all happened because the water line connected to the dishwasher, there was an issue there. And then we were out of town for a couple of days. So by the time we came back, it was a complete mess.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had to move out of our house for about I want to say six weeks. At the time, we had twin babies and a three-year-old. It took a while for the house to be renovated. We stayed in temporary housing for a little bit. And luckily, our insurance company covered most of the costs, but we found out that they weren't going to renew our policy. Two lessons there. The first one is, well, first of all, make sure that you shut off your water when you are leaving for more than a day.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And then the second one is before signing up for insurance, you talk to your insurance company and understand their policies. Because what we found out is the prior year, there was hailstorm in our neighborhood and our roof was damaged. The insurance company had replaced our roof, so that was two claims in two years. But those were the only claims we've had in about, I think, four years. The policy was if you have two claims in the past five years, well, you need to find a new insurance company.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And even though those were the only things that we've ever had, we had a really hard time finding another company to cover our insurance. As a result of that, our premium went up by, I think, five or six times. My advice is make sure that you understand the policies that your insurance company has. And also like for us, when we finally got out of that five-year range, we signed up for a company that allowed two incidents to happen without basically cutting you off after five years.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
So now we have a company that will let you have two incidents in two, three years as opposed to five.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one thinks about that kind of thing, so I think that's a great lesson. What other lessons do you have as a first time home buyer for first time home buyers?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When we went through the process to get our loan approved, we went through the inspection. There was some initial structural damage that had been fixed by the previous owner, and we received a letter from the engineer. The engineer came back and provided a letter to say that everything was back in order. But when it was time for us to sell our home I want to say five, six years later, we were in the process of getting everything done. We had an offer on the table.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one. It turns out that the structural damage was not fixed. It was a much bigger problem than we thought, and the buyer pulled their offer. It was the same structural engineer that we had hired a couple of months prior to make sure that everything was back on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think here the lesson is, and nothing against real estate investors, but when you do buy a home, just consider bringing in your own structural engineer. But when you do buy from an investor, pay even more attention to everything that's going on within the house. Because in this situation, they didn't really fix the problem. They put a bandaid on it and it got worse with time. As a result of that, we ended up selling the house for $100,000 less than we were expected to.

Bobbi Rebell:
It was the same inspector, so he changed his report?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
It wasn't an inspector. It was a structural engineer. The inspector cleared the house, but he recommended that we get a letter from the structural engineer that had done the work. The structural engineer came back, provided a report. But then a few years down the line when we were getting ready to sell the home, we hired another engineer to make sure that we were on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When the buyer asked that we provided the number of the engineer, we didn't have a problem because we knew that everything was good. But the engineer came back and gave them a report, refused to show us a report saying that we had to also pay the fee so that they would give us the report. And after that, the buyer just walked away and we hired another company. And that's when we realized that no, it was going to cost a lot more to fix the problem.

Bobbi Rebell:
The same structural engineer changed his story?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you confront them about this?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, when this happened, he was like, "Well, I came probably..." I think it was maybe six months or a year prior things changed, so we couldn't really prove that he had given us a different scenario. He had recommended that we do work. We did the work. After that, he refused to show us the report. To this day, I haven't seen the report that he gave to the buyer.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson and the tip from that?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think the tip for us is if you do buy a house that is a preexisting home, it's not a bad idea to go one step further than just hiring a home inspector, getting a structural engineer. In our case, I think it would have been better to get two different engineers so we could make an educated decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which seems expensive in the short-term, but clearly it costs you in the long-term not doing that, right?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Exactly. I think I would have gladly paid the extra $500 and save $100,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I think so. This breaks my heart. It unfortunately reminds me of some things that you share in your book, which I mentioned at the top of the episode. It's called Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids. But in that, you recall a lot of your family experiences and the money experiences of your parents. Can you share a little bit of that, because I believe there's a lot of tips we can learn from that?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure. I think there's so much to talk about here. But if I want to focus on the essential, one thing that I learned from my parents growing up is to live below your means.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that was especially important in your community. Can you talk about that and the cultural pressures that they did have?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Oh, absolutely. My parents had five biological children, but I grew up in a house full of cousins. A bunch of my cousins lived with us because in my culture, the person who makes it is expected to take care of the family. My parents were not only taking care of us financially, but they were financially providing for cousins and even like their siblings. There's a lot of financial pressure that comes with getting to a good place financially.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think one of the reason why my parents always lived below their means, and also just preparing for the unexpected. I'll share here a couple of instances where that will really help them and our family. One of them is... Sometime in the '90s, my father, he had a business partner that he had worked with for a while, and they had a couple of businesses together, or actually I should say, so he thought, because it turns out that...

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I don't know if you've ever watched the movie Catch Me If You Can, but his business partner was actually a master at deceiving. There were a couple of businesses that they had started and he basically robbed my father of a significant amount of money. To be fully transparent, that was in the '90s and it's the equivalent of $700,000 in today's dollars.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow!

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes, and that was very complicated schemes that his business partner did. Overnight your retirement funds or some of your retirement funds disappeared. It took a few years for my father to realize what this man was knowing, because he was not only his business partner, he was also his lawyer. So that definitely impacted my parents' bottom line. But because they had been living below their means, they were able to sustain that challenge.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Later on, my mother was diagnosed with a long-term illness and she kind of overnight needed 24-hour care. My parents live in a country where insurance or disability insurance is not really a thing. You have to finance it yourself. Now all of a sudden, my mother was working, so it's down to just one person working, and now you have to pay for very heavy medical fees. If my parents hadn't lived below their means, they wouldn't have been able to.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow! This is a lot. I'm so happy that they did do that. What is the tip from that, I guess, beyond obviously you want to live below your means?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, that's the main tip, but I think just in general... This is more like a general tip. You just have to double and triple check and even the people who are supposed to be your advisors, whether it's your financial or your lawyer, you just have to make sure that they are serving your best interests and you cannot blindly trust them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Don't blindly trust somebody. Yes. Check the paperwork. Even if someone else's is doing it and you think that they're taking care of everything and you trust them, it's still important to get in there and understand what's going on yourself. This has been wonderful. Anne-Lyse, where can people find out more about you and about Anne-Lyse Wealth?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure. I am at dreamoflegacy.com if you want to visit me there and sign up for my newsletter. You can also find out more about my book, which is Dream of Legacy, on my website or on Amazon. And I'm also on Instagram and Twitter @annelysewealth, which is A-N-N-E-L-Y-S-E-W-E-A-L-T-H.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for sharing so much. I really loved having you.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, grownups, let's review just some of the highlights from this interview with Anne-Lyse. Be careful when you buy insurance. Actually read and make sure you understand all the coverage limits. And if you don't fully understand it, take it to someone who can walk you through how things would actually play out in different scenarios. You don't think you're going to have those multiple claims, but, well, that's what insurance is for, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Double and triple check with a home inspectors and engineers so you do know the actual true status of your home's structural health and make sure you document everything. Just because you think you can trust someone like a business partner who is a dear friend and, in the case of Anne-Lyse's father, you're a long time lawyer, you still need to be checking the numbers. Do not trust blindly. That's a harsh lesson, but yeah. Be aware of cultural money pressures.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, Anne-Lyse talked about this a little bit, but I strongly recommend everyone read her book, Dream of Legacy, because in it she talks about the cultural norms that can often lead to damaging financial decisions and habits in the black community. Every culture is different, of course. But whatever your heritage is, it's important to identify and understand how it impacts the money habits for you and for those around you. I would love to hear how you think the environment, culture, and even the people around you impact your money decisions.

Bobbi Rebell:
DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. And if you aren't already subscribed, please sign up for my now weekly money tips newsletter. You're going to get insights about our interviews, previews of upcoming Clubhouse sessions, and links to relevant news and information to lead your best brought up life. Big thanks to Anne-Lyse of Anne-Lyse Wealth for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast's show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Our grownup lives sometimes take a turn for the worst at the time we least expect it. Jennifer Grimson experienced it all from filing for bankruptcy twice, becoming AirBNB pro and making some tough decisions to downsize her family's lifestyle in order to become a millionaire. 

Jennifer’s Money Story + Money Tips To Handle Financial Chaos

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, yes I have. So have many people. So my story is that I lost everything twice. So no job, no car, no place to live, two kids to raise, and chapter 13 bankruptcy. And that happened to me twice, once at the age of 29 and once at the age of 41, and the second time that it happened, I realized that I needed to do something to rebuild in a way that would protect me. So for me, that meant building small pockets of wealth, finger quotes, and security. And that's what the show that I have, which is called Micro Empires, is about, is just basically creating these small pockets so that if anything is taken away, you aren't left completely empty handed and at a loss of what to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those two bankruptcies, different stories each time, give us just a little sense of what caused those, because a lot of people go, well, how did that happen? I mean, the first time you had a one and a three-year-old. What happened?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, the bankruptcies were are actually caused by the same thing, but how it happened to me was that I was in a very contentious divorce. So my ex-husband sued me twenty-five times in 10 years, and I amassed over $500,000 in attorney's fees. And I can go into great detail about that, but I don't think we have time for it, but in my case, it wasn't that I purchased a home and went in upside down, or I bought expensive cars, or had terrible spending habits. It's that I was running from somebody who was punishing me financially through the court system, which is another entire story altogether.

Jennifer Grimson:
But chapter 13 was a way for me to escape the lawsuits, and the first one helped me preserve the home that I lived in. So it was probably the first lesson I got in there are tools out there for you to use to help you financially. Now, chapter 13 bankruptcy is no fun. You pay your creditors back. Your credit is ruined for 10 years. You have to live on cash. It is not a great existence, but it did release me from lawsuits. So I did that not only once, but twice. But on top of everything, the second time I found myself without anything, no car, no job, no place to live. What I had done then was to turn my financial wellbeing over to someone else, namely the person that I was in a relationship with, so that when that relationship ended, I was really left with nothing.

Jennifer Grimson:
And as shameful as I felt that was, I decided a year ago, when I decided to start the show, that I would share the story because I knew I wasn't the only one. I think women do it more than men. I think it happens a lot, and there's a lot of shame in it when really the shame should be honestly on the other person, who's kind of not being fair about that. But at any rate, it taught me a hard, hard lesson and I really didn't get the message until I was about 41, that no matter what I did, I was going to have to rebuild in a different way than I had done in the past.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now it is a decade after that second bankruptcy. Just to catch people up, you became a real estate investor.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yes, I did. So from 41 years old, the following three years it took me to correct my credit, which is a journey in and of itself. And then the first thing I did was to purchase a home, which was a miracle. And I walk through how I made that happen. And then through house hacking and short term rental, in four years, I created $1.4 million in income producing investments.

Jennifer Grimson:
And there's a reason they're called income producing investments. I didn't have $1.4 million. I had mortgages, I had overhead, I had all of the things, but what I had done was created, I actually had three properties that were Airbnb. And those properties all had their own incomes, their own empires, on top of a corporate job. So that way, I had at least four areas of income, and then I created other areas of income, as well. So I kept creating these little pockets of income.

Jennifer Grimson:
And then that's morphed. I've moved into investing into multi-family and other things. But again, by using tools, tools that I had at the ready. So I didn't realize, when I rebuilt the second time, I did it with a W-2 really and some grit. So other than that, I mean, I didn't have a great investment that I made a ton of money off of or anything like that. I simply just used the tools at hand, which are part of why I want to do the show, to share what's available to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know you don't do Airbnb investing right now, but just quickly, give us some insider secrets and tips for getting started with Airbnb. What did you learn there?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, I learned a lot. So first and foremost, I started doing it in 2014 in Nashville, Tennessee, where no one was doing it at the time. And that was a great time to do it. So my advice to anybody is anytime you see an opportunity, and maybe it's something new and edgy, and you're willing to take the risk, and risk, you know, I talk about risk a lot, it has to be a risk that you're comfortable with, I say, go for it. I needed to do everything in micro steps. Also part of why I do the things the way that I do. I'm not a huge risk taker.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I had my home. I started renting it out on the weekends through Airbnb and quickly realized that this could be a real way for me to not only cover my mortgage and expenses, but a way for me to create an income. My best advice for people, if you're getting involved in Airbnb and you're just starting out and you're just a normal person, like you're not a person who has hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank or millions to lose, I say, go find an emerging market and buy a really, really affordable home. Your money in real estate is made on the purchase. So if you purchase high, you're not really probably going to make a lot of money off it, no matter what your plan is with it. You've got to find a way to purchase low.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I purchased in evolving neighborhoods. I took a chance in that. And I went ahead and lived in the properties, which allowed me to get in there for very little money. I furnished them myself. I managed them myself, until such time that they were up and running and I was able to hire other people to do that. Those would be my basic tips on Airbnb. I could talk about that forever, but those are sort of the basics.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hands-on first, then hand it off. Okay, so that was a nice little bonus tangent for everybody. But the real reason I asked you to come on was to tell us your tips on how to handle financial chaos, which of course has to start with actually recognizing financial chaos. Like, there was a cereal incident in your car, with your children.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. So financial chaos is a really sad, scary place to live and to be. And I lived in it for many, many years, and I didn't know what I was living in. I like to describe it to people, I have this metaphor, like imagine you're living in a home, there's no lights in the home, and it's a hoarder. You're living in a home with a hoarder, and there's all this stuff piled up, but you don't know it's there, but you feel like something's wrong. You're not really sure what it is.

Jennifer Grimson:
And one day, someone turns the light switch on and you see all of the chaos, all of the mayhem, and that person who's creating it, whether it's you or potentially your partner, runs over and shuts that light off, and says, "Oh, never mind, never mind." You can't unsee it. So in my case, I lived in a situation where I was, to simplify it, I was a saver and my ex-husband was a spender. He had a lot of emotional attachment to money and how it made him feel. And we were living in absolute dire straights, things like he would get angry if I bought the generic brand cereal. We were so broke, I was bouncing checks to buy groceries. I would go to three different grocery stores to find the best deals.

Jennifer Grimson:
I took my children shopping one night, like I did normally, so I had them with me in the evening, little babies in diapers, in and out of the car. We'd go to three different grocery stores to save the money. And then on the way home, we're in California on Highway 101, I pull over on the side of the road, I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos. You're risking your entire life to keep someone happy about something that has to really do with money and your relationship with money. So that's financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
And when I talk to people about their money, and it's very, very personal. People will tell you about their sex lives before they'll tell you about their money, which is kind of crazy, but they'll explain things to me that they've become accustomed to because they've been living in it for so long. But that is sort of the truth of it, and recognizing it, as well. My advice is to look at, do you have a shared approach to money? Do you and your partner have a shared approach? Do you find it really difficult to go without the nice to haves? Or does your partner? Do you feel sick whenever you have to talk about money? And then examining what wealthy might mean to you, also a good tool in figuring out where you are on the money spectrum.

Bobbi Rebell:
Once we've identified that we are in financial chaos, which probably more of us are in than we realize, give us some tips to calm that financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, if you're in a partnership with someone who is creating the chaos, and it's not yourself, because sometimes it could be yourself, and there's a little test that I offer in the episode that I did this week, but probably the first thing is to sit down and have a conversation with that partner. Chances are, that may not go well if you've never had a conversation before, and there are therapists and books and things that can help you with that, but it's really taking a hard look at your own relationship with money. I happen to call it money culture, and I have a free ebook, as well, that walks you through like where are you with money and how do you feel and why do you do the things that you do?

Jennifer Grimson:
Hopefully if you can sit down and have a conversation with a partner and that person is able to come to grips with their own relationship with money, perhaps saying, "Yeah, I do these things because it makes me feel loved," or, "I didn't get this as a child," or, "It makes me feel like a better person when I have expensive things," you can start to work through that and come up with a plan together about how money is tied directly to identity and security. And so examining that and looking at it as a whole and saying is our identity more important than our security? Do we have to have a Mercedes-Benz outside and a really expensive house that we can't afford? Or is it better for us to have a little bit less and feel safe? That's what it is for me, anyway. I have to feel safe when it comes to money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a lot of us feel that way. So that's if a partner's involved. What if it's on you? What if there is financial chaos in your life and you just need to do something about it? What are your tips?

Jennifer Grimson:
So one of the things I say is try to go 30 days without purchasing anything above food and shelter, and see if you can do it, see how it makes you feel, write it down, those sorts of things. I think the root of it, if you're in it and you're causing it, is that you've got to figure out why you're doing it. So for me, my money lessons, my money culture, has been based in fear because I've been in these really extreme situations twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also sometimes give people some very tough love that they do not want to hear about big life decisions about their lifestyle overall.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I say a lot that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This is interesting to me. Met with a woman recently and she said, "I'm really struggling. I've been out of work." She's somebody I knew years ago in the corporate world. She'd been out of work for a long time. She was struggling to find a new corporate job, and let's face it, age-ism is a real thing. And there isn't much I can do to help her with that, other than networking. But I said, "Well, let's take a look at what you've got." And she's got this amazing home in a phenomenal location here in Nashville. She's got an outbuilding, an apartment. She already has an apartment.

Jennifer Grimson:
I said, "Well, you could turn that into an Airbnb." This is just an example. And obviously with all the experience I have, I was even willing to help her with the marketing and tell her what works best and all the tips. And she was like, "Well, I don't want people at my house." And okay, you don't want people at your house. That's okay. But you're choosing your identity, I think, over your security. I didn't want people at my house, either, Bobbi. I was tired of people using my bathrooms and sleeping in my beds, but I cared more about my security.

Jennifer Grimson:
So maybe you don't want somebody living in your house. That's fine. Maybe you don't want to give up the expensive purses. That's fine. But are you going to be able to give up the travel, or are you going to be able to give up eating out, or are you going to be able to give up, or are you willing to live basically on the fringe of complete financial ruin day in and day out?

Jennifer Grimson:
So for me, the second time I lost everything, my kids were in private school. I was living in this beautiful neighborhood. My first thought was, how do I keep them in private school? How do I get an apartment in this neighborhood? How do I keep this lifestyle that I've been creating for them? And the truth was, I wasn't going to keep any of that. I needed to move out. I needed to live with my sister, on her generosity, for four months. I needed to look at different areas for them to go to school.

Jennifer Grimson:
And so grappling with the fact that you may need to give up what you've become accustomed to, to achieve freedom, is just a really important topic that we go into over and over again. Clinging to what you had may not be your path to freedom.

Follow Jennifer!

• Instagram - @microempires

• Facebook - @MicroEmpiresPodcast

• Twitter - @jives3_jennifer

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-grimson-7265bb8/

• Website - http://www.micro-empires.com/

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Jennifer Grimson:
We're in California on Highway 101. I pull over on the side of the road. I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there, pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. As you heard, there was a point when Micro Empires podcast host Jennifer Grimson's life was truly in financial chaos. She can talk about it now, but literally pulling over to put generic cereal into brand name boxes so your husband won't know you saved money, that's really bananas, right? Jennifer talks candidly about her decisions to file for bankruptcy twice and the consequences of that tough decision. But she also gives some priceless tips on how we can first recognize when our financial lives are in chaos, because very often we are in the dark.

Bobbi Rebell:
And while it's not the primary focus of our interview, I did manage to sneak in some questions about maximizing your Airbnb properties and what makes a good investment. And you'll also hear why that's so relevant to Jennifer's story. Here is Jennifer Grimson. Jennifer Grimson, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jennifer Grimson:
Thank you so much for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am looking forward to speaking with you about your tips to handle financial chaos. That's why I brought you on, because it was a recent episode of your podcast, Micro Empires. But first, I want to hear a little bit more about your backstory because you have been through it all.

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, yes I have. So have many people. So my story is that I lost everything twice. So no job, no car, no place to live, two kids to raise, and chapter 13 bankruptcy. And that happened to me twice, once at the age of 29 and once at the age of 41, and the second time that it happened, I realized that I needed to do something to rebuild in a way that would protect me. So for me, that meant building small pockets of wealth, finger quotes, and security. And that's what the show that I have, which is called Micro Empires, is about, is just basically creating these small pockets so that if anything is taken away, you aren't left completely empty handed and at a loss of what to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those two bankruptcies, different stories each time, give us just a little sense of what caused those, because a lot of people go, well, how did that happen? I mean, the first time you had a one and a three-year-old. What happened?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, the bankruptcies were are actually caused by the same thing, but how it happened to me was that I was in a very contentious divorce. So my ex-husband sued me twenty-five times in 10 years, and I amassed over $500,000 in attorney's fees. And I can go into great detail about that, but I don't think we have time for it, but in my case, it wasn't that I purchased a home and went in upside down, or I bought expensive cars, or had terrible spending habits. It's that I was running from somebody who was punishing me financially through the court system, which is another entire story altogether.

Jennifer Grimson:
But chapter 13 was a way for me to escape the lawsuits, and the first one helped me preserve the home that I lived in. So it was probably the first lesson I got in there are tools out there for you to use to help you financially. Now, chapter 13 bankruptcy is no fun. You pay your creditors back. Your credit is ruined for 10 years. You have to live on cash. It is not a great existence, but it did release me from lawsuits. So I did that not only once, but twice. But on top of everything, the second time I found myself without anything, no car, no job, no place to live. What I had done then was to turn my financial wellbeing over to someone else, namely the person that I was in a relationship with, so that when that relationship ended, I was really left with nothing.

Jennifer Grimson:
And as shameful as I felt that was, I decided a year ago, when I decided to start the show, that I would share the story because I knew I wasn't the only one. I think women do it more than men. I think it happens a lot, and there's a lot of shame in it when really the shame should be honestly on the other person, who's kind of not being fair about that. But at any rate, it taught me a hard, hard lesson and I really didn't get the message until I was about 41, that no matter what I did, I was going to have to rebuild in a different way than I had done in the past.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now it is a decade after that second bankruptcy. Just to catch people up, you became a real estate investor.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yes, I did. So from 41 years old, the following three years it took me to correct my credit, which is a journey in and of itself. And then the first thing I did was to purchase a home, which was a miracle. And I walk through how I made that happen. And then through house hacking and short term rental, in four years, I created $1.4 million in income producing investments.

Jennifer Grimson:
And there's a reason they're called income producing investments. I didn't have $1.4 million. I had mortgages, I had overhead, I had all of the things, but what I had done was created, I actually had three properties that were Airbnb. And those properties all had their own incomes, their own empires, on top of a corporate job. So that way, I had at least four areas of income, and then I created other areas of income, as well. So I kept creating these little pockets of income.

Jennifer Grimson:
And then that's morphed. I've moved into investing into multi-family and other things. But again, by using tools, tools that I had at the ready. So I didn't realize, when I rebuilt the second time, I did it with a W-2 really and some grit. So other than that, I mean, I didn't have a great investment that I made a ton of money off of or anything like that. I simply just used the tools at hand, which are part of why I want to do the show, to share what's available to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know you don't do Airbnb investing right now, but just quickly, give us some insider secrets and tips for getting started with Airbnb. What did you learn there?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, I learned a lot. So first and foremost, I started doing it in 2014 in Nashville, Tennessee, where no one was doing it at the time. And that was a great time to do it. So my advice to anybody is anytime you see an opportunity, and maybe it's something new and edgy, and you're willing to take the risk, and risk, you know, I talk about risk a lot, it has to be a risk that you're comfortable with, I say, go for it. I needed to do everything in micro steps. Also part of why I do the things the way that I do. I'm not a huge risk taker.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I had my home. I started renting it out on the weekends through Airbnb and quickly realized that this could be a real way for me to not only cover my mortgage and expenses, but a way for me to create an income. My best advice for people, if you're getting involved in Airbnb and you're just starting out and you're just a normal person, like you're not a person who has hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank or millions to lose, I say, go find an emerging market and buy a really, really affordable home. Your money in real estate is made on the purchase. So if you purchase high, you're not really probably going to make a lot of money off it, no matter what your plan is with it. You've got to find a way to purchase low.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I purchased in evolving neighborhoods. I took a chance in that. And I went ahead and lived in the properties, which allowed me to get in there for very little money. I furnished them myself. I managed them myself, until such time that they were up and running and I was able to hire other people to do that. Those would be my basic tips on Airbnb. I could talk about that forever, but those are sort of the basics.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hands-on first, then hand it off. Okay, so that was a nice little bonus tangent for everybody. But the real reason I asked you to come on was to tell us your tips on how to handle financial chaos, which of course has to start with actually recognizing financial chaos. Like, there was a cereal incident in your car, with your children.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. So financial chaos is a really sad, scary place to live and to be. And I lived in it for many, many years, and I didn't know what I was living in. I like to describe it to people, I have this metaphor, like imagine you're living in a home, there's no lights in the home, and it's a hoarder. You're living in a home with a hoarder, and there's all this stuff piled up, but you don't know it's there, but you feel like something's wrong. You're not really sure what it is.

Jennifer Grimson:
And one day, someone turns the light switch on and you see all of the chaos, all of the mayhem, and that person who's creating it, whether it's you or potentially your partner, runs over and shuts that light off, and says, "Oh, never mind, never mind." You can't unsee it. So in my case, I lived in a situation where I was, to simplify it, I was a saver and my ex-husband was a spender. He had a lot of emotional attachment to money and how it made him feel. And we were living in absolute dire straights, things like he would get angry if I bought the generic brand cereal. We were so broke, I was bouncing checks to buy groceries. I would go to three different grocery stores to find the best deals.

Jennifer Grimson:
I took my children shopping one night, like I did normally, so I had them with me in the evening, little babies in diapers, in and out of the car. We'd go to three different grocery stores to save the money. And then on the way home, we're in California on Highway 101, I pull over on the side of the road, I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos. You're risking your entire life to keep someone happy about something that has to really do with money and your relationship with money. So that's financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
And when I talk to people about their money, and it's very, very personal. People will tell you about their sex lives before they'll tell you about their money, which is kind of crazy, but they'll explain things to me that they've become accustomed to because they've been living in it for so long. But that is sort of the truth of it, and recognizing it, as well. My advice is to look at, do you have a shared approach to money? Do you and your partner have a shared approach? Do you find it really difficult to go without the nice to haves? Or does your partner? Do you feel sick whenever you have to talk about money? And then examining what wealthy might mean to you, also a good tool in figuring out where you are on the money spectrum.

Bobbi Rebell:
Once we've identified that we are in financial chaos, which probably more of us are in than we realize, give us some tips to calm that financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, if you're in a partnership with someone who is creating the chaos, and it's not yourself, because sometimes it could be yourself, and there's a little test that I offer in the episode that I did this week, but probably the first thing is to sit down and have a conversation with that partner. Chances are, that may not go well if you've never had a conversation before, and there are therapists and books and things that can help you with that, but it's really taking a hard look at your own relationship with money. I happen to call it money culture, and I have a free ebook, as well, that walks you through like where are you with money and how do you feel and why do you do the things that you do?

Jennifer Grimson:
Hopefully if you can sit down and have a conversation with a partner and that person is able to come to grips with their own relationship with money, perhaps saying, "Yeah, I do these things because it makes me feel loved," or, "I didn't get this as a child," or, "It makes me feel like a better person when I have expensive things," you can start to work through that and come up with a plan together about how money is tied directly to identity and security. And so examining that and looking at it as a whole and saying is our identity more important than our security? Do we have to have a Mercedes-Benz outside and a really expensive house that we can't afford? Or is it better for us to have a little bit less and feel safe? That's what it is for me, anyway. I have to feel safe when it comes to money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a lot of us feel that way. So that's if a partner's involved. What if it's on you? What if there is financial chaos in your life and you just need to do something about it? What are your tips?

Jennifer Grimson:
So one of the things I say is try to go 30 days without purchasing anything above food and shelter, and see if you can do it, see how it makes you feel, write it down, those sorts of things. I think the root of it, if you're in it and you're causing it, is that you've got to figure out why you're doing it. So for me, my money lessons, my money culture, has been based in fear because I've been in these really extreme situations twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also sometimes give people some very tough love that they do not want to hear about big life decisions about their lifestyle overall.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I say a lot that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This is interesting to me. Met with a woman recently and she said, "I'm really struggling. I've been out of work." She's somebody I knew years ago in the corporate world. She'd been out of work for a long time. She was struggling to find a new corporate job, and let's face it, age-ism is a real thing. And there isn't much I can do to help her with that, other than networking. But I said, "Well, let's take a look at what you've got." And she's got this amazing home in a phenomenal location here in Nashville. She's got an outbuilding, an apartment. She already has an apartment.

Jennifer Grimson:
I said, "Well, you could turn that into an Airbnb." This is just an example. And obviously with all the experience I have, I was even willing to help her with the marketing and tell her what works best and all the tips. And she was like, "Well, I don't want people at my house." And okay, you don't want people at your house. That's okay. But you're choosing your identity, I think, over your security. I didn't want people at my house, either, Bobbi. I was tired of people using my bathrooms and sleeping in my beds, but I cared more about my security.

Jennifer Grimson:
So maybe you don't want somebody living in your house. That's fine. Maybe you don't want to give up the expensive purses. That's fine. But are you going to be able to give up the travel, or are you going to be able to give up eating out, or are you going to be able to give up, or are you willing to live basically on the fringe of complete financial ruin day in and day out?

Jennifer Grimson:
So for me, the second time I lost everything, my kids were in private school. I was living in this beautiful neighborhood. My first thought was, how do I keep them in private school? How do I get an apartment in this neighborhood? How do I keep this lifestyle that I've been creating for them? And the truth was, I wasn't going to keep any of that. I needed to move out. I needed to live with my sister, on her generosity, for four months. I needed to look at different areas for them to go to school.

Jennifer Grimson:
And so grappling with the fact that you may need to give up what you've become accustomed to, to achieve freedom, is just a really important topic that we go into over and over again. Clinging to what you had may not be your path to freedom.

Bobbi Rebell:
This has been so wonderful. Tell us where people can follow up with you. Of course, everybody needs to subscribe to the Micro Empires podcast.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah, the podcast, of course. My website is micro-empires.com. I'm on all the socials, either by Micro Empires or Jennifer Grimson. I have a free book. It's 28 pages. You can download it at my website. And I'm also creating a course called You Don't Have to Be Wealthy to Build Wealth. So I hope that will be really helpful for people. It's really for folks that are just kind of starting out, because I get asked the same questions over and over again. You know, I may not be the only person who's gone through this, but for a lot of folks who I hear, it's too late to start over, et cetera, et cetera, I think I'm a good example of somebody who went through it more than once, and later in life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Jennifer Grimson:
Thank you, Bobbi. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, let's review some of Jennifer's tips from the interview. First of all, look, bankruptcy is a serious decision, but it can be a tool to help in the most dire financial situations. So think about it carefully, but know that it might be right in some extreme situations. Don't turn your financial wellbeing over to someone else completely, even if that is someone that you are in a relationship with and you love and you believe will last forever. And I hope it does. But sometimes when a relationship ends, you can end up like Jennifer, with nothing. Just think about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jennifer set up her real estate as income producing investments. She had three Airbnbs with their own incomes that were separate, in addition to her W-2 job. So think about that when you are working on different side hustles or other ventures.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you find yourself in financial chaos and it involves a partner, make sure you sit down and try to have a conversation about it. Think about having them come to grips with their relationship with money and what is driving their decisions that are impacting both of you. Come up with a plan together. If you and you alone are the cause of the financial chaos, well, Jennifer suggests trying, for example, to go 30 days with just the most basic expenses. We're talking food and shelter, and maybe write down any time you stray. See how it makes you feel.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, figure out why you are doing it. Is it about identity, security, validation from others? Figure out what is your money culture based on? For Jennifer, it's based on fear of having to start over financially yet again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, I'd love to hear what you think of this episode. Have you ever found yourself in financial chaos? I would love to hear your reaction to this episode and maybe your stories. DM me on Instagram at @BobbiRebell1, and for previews of upcoming episodes and news that is relevant to our grownup lives, please subscribe to my newsletter. You can do so on my website, bobbirebell.com. Big thanks to Micro Empire's podcast host Jennifer Grimson for her fantastic advice and for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media, and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself, as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we've got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Jesse Mecham, found of You Need a Budget joins us with a fantastic list of ways we can be a lot less stressed out about money, communicate better about money with out loved ones, and in the end feel and be more in control of our finances. 

Jesse’s Money Tips

Bobbi Rebell:
You are the founder, CEO, and creator, creative mind, I should say, behind You Need a Budget, affectionately known by many as YNAB. Congratulations on all the success of this product, and really, it's more than a product. It's really a whole suite of tools to help grownups.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're focused on anyone that thinks at some moment in time, "I think I might need a budget," and then we try and convince them that a budget is fun and useful and productive. Then we just teach them kind of a new way of thinking about their money and have them go on their way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the backstory of this really started with you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. I was the first one to realize that I needed a budget, at least that I knew, and my very new wife and I, we were both just newlyweds, broke, both in school. We wanted to get through school. We wanted to do it without taking on any debt, and we weren't making a lot of money at all. So I just thought, "Well, we need to watch this carefully." So I built this little spreadsheet for just me and my wife, Julie. A year later, it had done a lot of heavy lifting for us. We were on the same page. We were saving money.

Jesse Mecham:
Then this little baby came along, and our two big goals, we didn't want to borrow any money for school and we wanted Julie to be able to step out of the workforce and just focus on this baby, and she was the breadwinner at that time. I was still mainly focused on school. So the whole impetus was like, "Well, could we figure out some way to just kind of close that gap?" That was where I thought, "Well, maybe other people would want to use this spreadsheet that Julie and I have used." So we launched it and iterated for the next 17 years, and here we are.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of people are working from home, but they're thinking or they're being told that they're going to come back in some form. So much is up in the air. Give us some money tips for managing this time in our lives.

Jesse Mecham:
Structure. That is the word. You want to build structure in. It's not so you can be uber super productive, right? We're not saying, "Oh, now you can be Superwoman because you've got work right there. You can go sit over there and just start plugging away." Not that at all. It's actually structure to be able to stop working and find time to close things down. So anything you can do, if it's a morning routine and a shutdown routine, our team swears by that, if you have the luxury of finding a separate space with maybe a door that you can close, that's excellent. Headphones that you can pop on and mute things, that's excellent. Anything where you can create structure around your work, but most importantly it's so you can shut things down. We saw a lot of burnout from 2020, not because ... Well, I mean, yeah, because of the pandemic, but because people didn't know how to not be at work when work had come home.

Bobbi Rebell:
All the rules changed when the pandemic hit. It became kind of okay to have kids in the background, but at a certain point, there is a productivity cost. So give us some money tips for parents balancing work and family, especially in this transitional time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're promoters of remote work, and it's been kind of unfair for remote work to have the pandemic come along with the experiment, because what you were dealing with, it's like, "Oh, we don't like working from home because my kids are here." I'm like, "Well, they won't always be there. They'll probably be back in school, and it'll feel different," or suddenly someone's having to just on a whim work from their kitchen table. That's not ideal for basically most everyone. I say most because I do know one person that loves the chaos, and he works, codes right in that. But he is the exception.

Jesse Mecham:
So we don't want to combine our experience of working from home with the fact that we had all these other dynamics with the pandemic, number one, and maybe only, because you'd start here and then see what happened. You've got to have conversations with your spouse. You're probably both working, and you kind of have to say, "Okay, how do we divide and conquer this situation?" But Julie and I, when I used to work in our home, we had to have just straightforward conversations. I would say, "Hey, I'm going to go down." It's like I'm gone, just gone, and she was clear on that. Then she also needed to know from me, "Hey, are you going to come up for lunch? Should I eat without you?" She didn't want to just miss out on something. But it was a little bit of a burden for her if I wasn't very communicative on what my schedule looked like. She's like, "Oh, should I wait around, or should I take off with the kids and go somewhere?"

Jesse Mecham:
So just overly communicating as far as the boundaries go has been really helpful, but you have to recognize you're always going to iterate on this. Everything's changing. Life will change. The kids will get a little older, and they can understand things like, "Hey, don't come in when the door's closed." I lock my door here when I'm doing something like this. It's recording where I'll hear Faye, my little five-year-old, run across the garage floor, and I'll hear her coming. She knows if the door's locked, that means don't knock. That means just give Dad a little bit of time, and I can pop out at some point. But you've got to communicate those boundaries like, "Hey, this is real. I'm really at work."

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's an area that is ripe for improvement in my home, for sure.

Jesse Mecham:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So okay. So your product is YNAB, and I'm sure some people are super fans and some people give you the eye roll. Part of it is that there's a perception that budgets are all about being restrictive. I'd like you to share an experience you had with your wife when you had a certain amount budgeted for groceries, but it wasn't working for her because it wasn't about the money.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, it's almost nothing is ever really about just the money. There's always something at least a few layers deep, and in this instance, I regret to say that it was a 10-year evolution of my learning on this and Julie also learning it as well. But for the most part, when we were first early on married and I was not even working just on YNAB, I had a real job and stuff, I mean, I was swamped doing that, and she was swamped doing these little kids. So we were both pretty swamped. I do still the heavy lifting of the budgeting as far as running the software and making sure everything's reconciled, and then she comes over and I'm like, "Hey, I'm ready for you." She comes over and she looks at it all, and we make sure we're on the same page.

Jesse Mecham:
That was always how it worked, and one of those categories in there was the groceries category. Our third rule of budgeting is to roll with the punches, meaning you can overspend. You just adjust. It's flexible. So every month, we would overspend in groceries, and then literally 10 years in, one day ... So this would mean we had four kids, probably, at the time. I was like ... Same old conversation. It was like a light bulb went off for Julie or something where she's like, "For me, a successful grocery trip doesn't mean I'm under budget. It means that the kids don't meltdown. It means that it's just smooth. It means we're in and out. That's success."

Jesse Mecham:
I was trying to have the old school Julie, when we were first married and she knew the price of every brand of can of corn. But over time, we had evolved, and she didn't have the brain space for it, nor should she have. So it was her recognizing the value that she was placing was on the experience, not on just, "Oh, look how little we spent." Way back when we were first married, it was vital that we spent so little because it was so tight. So I bumped our budget up quite a bit, and we haven't overspent since. That was a big lesson for me. There's usually something behind the scenes when we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and you're speaking to something that hits home for so many of our grownup listeners, that it is an evolution as you go through the different stages of being a grownup. At the early times, when you made that budget initially and the decision about how much money you would have for groceries, she was in a position where it made sense with her time and her attention to be looking at every little price. There sometimes is a time in life when the price within that budget is not the most important thing. It might be the time, that it's not worth her time, resources, especially now, as you have seven children, to know the price of corn or whatever it may be. So I think it's really important that financial grownups understand that things change and that's okay. It's important to be able to adjust things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're a big believer in not having debt. Obviously, you say it's not inevitable, but there are a lot of people that point out that debt can be used for good, like education. You were able to avoid debt for your education. Tell us about that, and give us some tips about avoiding debt, especially for people that are looking at student debt, credit card debt, what have you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. The student debt, I'll kind of set aside for just a moment. Credit card debt, for the most part, at least as it's reported, you see a lot of people say, "The worst situations are someone declares bankruptcy." They'll say, "A lot of the time, it's a medical debt that will kind of tip the scales," but we don't recognize all of the little debts that come along that kind of pile up. Then it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. This final one is a medical bill or something a little bit larger than is the norm. Most people, it's kind of death by a thousand cuts with that credit card balance. So it goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way. It goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way.

Jesse Mecham:
It's really because they're making spending decisions now, not considering future expenses that are going to happen, that are very much going to happen. The car will need to be repaired at some point or an appliance will need to be replaced. So when these abnormal kind of ... Someone will say, "Oh, it's this one-off thing. This isn't a normal month, but we had this one-off kind of 'Ah' experience. I just had a water heater go out. Well, just the pipe for it, where it started shooting a little stream of water in your face if you walked by. We were like, 'Well, we've got to get that fixed.'" That just happens. So that's all real, and there is no such thing as a normal month. So every time we see a new expense pop up, we're like, "Oh, that's abnormal. That's not normally what happens. So I'll just put it on this card because it's a one-off." You find out that that abnormal stuff happens all the time. So we're always kind of telling ourselves that story, and that story isn't true.

Jesse Mecham:
So when we get to our second rule, we are embracing those true expenses, we want people to be able to look ahead to those larger, less frequent expenses that surprise them and break them up into monthly amounts and start saving up for the car repair, the appliance repair, or the vacation, kids' summer camp or whatever it may be, not always just bad things. Then when they're choosing to spend money in the moment, they're considering the future as well. So that thinking shift, and I should say I'm not talking about people that are truly in dire straights. They know how to stretch. I mean, you talk about financial grownups, financial tips, they know how to stretch a dollar in ways that would just blow our minds. So I'm talking about people that make good money. They don't have good information, and so they're just not choosing in the moment based on information that's fit to really give them the answer they need. That's how we slowly get into the credit card debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can you get that information?

Jesse Mecham:
You need to stop looking at your checking account balance as the end all, be all point of information. Say, "Well, how much money do I have? Can I go out to sushi, or are we going to get some cheap pizza? Can I do this? Can I buy these shoes that I just saw or not?" People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Jesse Mecham:
So instead, we want them to follow our first rule. You take that bank balance, you break it up into jobs, and you say, "This month" ... Say we have $1,000. "400 of that is for groceries for the next little while. The 200 of it is for this thing. 100 of it is for a car repair that I know will happen, but I don't know when and I don't know how much, but 100 bucks would be better than zero. I'm going to set that aside this month." You just start breaking that pile of money down. 50 bucks will be for sushi. Then you live according to that plan.

Jesse Mecham:
When your friend says, "Hey, we should go get some sushi," you look at your phone, and instead of seeing that you have $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, yeah, sushi, slam dunk" or you see $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, should I? I don't know," you still don't know, still stressful, you look at the sushi category and you're like, "Oh, I've got 50 bucks. I'm sitting pretty. Let's go do sushi," or you see that your eating out category is $2 and you're like, "You want to just come over? I'll make you some tea or something." But you're not choosing something now without considering all of those future obligations that are going to hit you. That's the key.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to get through a couple other tips we have prepared for our listeners. You talk a lot about embracing your true expenses, and I feel like you were alluding to that in the last answer. What does it mean to embrace your true expenses?

Jesse Mecham:
You have to recognize that expenses are not even. They're not steady. They're like, I don't know, a really unhealthy EKG, maybe, where it's just like, "Boom, here's a big surprise. Boom, here's a big surprise." You always think, "Oh, that's the exception." It's not. It's real. Christmas comes every single year. So if you celebrate Christmas, if you do the gift thing, then you'd say, "Well, how much do we want to spend on that? Maybe it's $600." So you set aside 50 bucks a month. For all of 2021, you're setting aside 50 bucks a month, and then when Christmas comes, you have $600. Instead of flipping it around and starting to say, "Oh, well, I don't have any money, so I'll just put it on a card and then I'll pay that down," think about it this way, Bobbi. It's always you and future you that are sitting there with the pile of money. Future you needs to have a voice at the table.

Jesse Mecham:
If you think about the debt situation that you asked me about earlier, when you say someone's like, "Oh, we'll put that on a payment plan. We'll put this on a payment plan. That's the name of the game," that person, that company is thinking about future them. They're like, "Oh, man, it'd be great if you'd finance this car. Absolutely. It'd be great for us." They're totally thinking about future them, future quarterly earnings things for shareholders, future bank balance. I mean, they're all over the future. Then you have the person that signs it away saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that note for this car." They're not thinking about the future. I'm trying to flip that around. I'm trying to have people think about their future and position themselves to be future-oriented, where then they're making decisions with both of you in mind, future Bobbi, present Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and it's hard, because the truth is one of the things that worries a lot of us right now is that things like you talk about a car, car loans are getting longer and longer in term to make the payments look lower, but ultimately, you're paying more, and it's over your head for a very long time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're orienting where they know. Well, don't even look at the repo situation. I mean, how many times people will get cars repossessed, and the same car will get repossessed five times. There is someone making money in that scenario, and it's not the person driving the car. So that seven-year note that you see on cars now, they used to be three, then five. Now they're seven. All that is is an evolution of the financing of that GM, Ford. Every car company makes most of their money, most of their profits from the financing side of this, not from the manufacture of the car. They're putting it out to seven years because they know that future Toyota, future Honda, no knock on any of the companies, but they are future- and profit-oriented, and people that are buying the car are now-oriented.

Jesse Mecham:
That's where we have to just try and get that shift to happen. So you start paying yourself a car payment, saving up cash for it over time. It might mean that you buy a car that's beneath you for a little while, but then you trade up over time and you start paying cash for that. You get out of that car payment trap. It's not a given.

Bobbi Rebell:
Or you don't trade up. A lot of really wealthy people drive really crummy cars.

Jesse Mecham:
It is absolutely. Yeah. They're hiding in plain sight.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. One final tip. What does it mean to age your money?

Jesse Mecham:
So we're essentially talking about if you were to earn a dollar today that it would be 30 to 60 days before you actually spent that dollar. So when a dollar enters your system, the clock starts ticking, and that dollar starts getting older and older and older. Right now, most people that are living paycheck to paycheck, they are spending dollars. I mean, they have a pile of bills just waiting for money to land, and we want to flip that around. We want to have a pile of money where bills come and land and you're like, "Oh, okay, I've got the money here set aside."

Jesse Mecham:
If you follow our first three rules, which we talk about ad nauseum, if you follow our first three rules, that fourth rule where you start to spend money that's a little older, a little older, a little older, it almost just happens automatically. It's a way to step back from the financial edge. You sleep better. You can talk more effectively about money with your partner because the stress levels are much lower. You make better decisions because of those stress levels being lower. You probably live longer because your stress levels are lower.

Jesse Mecham:
That's the aging your money concept. Spend money that is old. When you think about swiping a card, you actually spend money that ... Well, the metaphor breaks down, but it hasn't even been born yet. You haven't even earned it yet. The shift that we're seeing where companies are paying people for that day, for that shift, and they think that's going to help people break the paycheck to paycheck cycle, that's not going to do it. We're just pushing that can down the road. We have to have people start to orient themselves around thinking a little further ahead.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the way that you are reframing this and the different perspectives that you're giving, because I'm sitting here listening, and my mind is turning. It's so interesting to come at this from a different perspective. So thank you so much for joining us.

Follow Jesse!

• Instagram - @youneedabudget

• Facebook - @iYNAB

• Twitter - @ynab

• YouTube - @YouNeedABudget

• Website - https://www.youneedabudget.com

• Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-need-a-budget-ynab/id477248343

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Jesse Mecham:
People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey there, grownup friends. Do you guys stress out about money? I do some of the time. I do. Do you check your bank balance before you make a purchase? Do you get anxious worrying about something unexpected coming at you, whacking your delicately balanced finances that are okay for now, but maybe not as strong as you would like, especially if those unexpected things should happen? But we have you covered with this week's financial grownup, Jesse Mecham. He is the founder of the You Need a Budget app and software, I should say, AKA, YNAB. Jesse has a lot to say about how we take the stress out of our grownup financial lives. The father of seven is remarkably calm. Yeah, I said the father of seven, in part because he has been able to separate his work from his family life, something we also talk about. I think you're really going to love his work from home tips as well. So with that, here is YNAB's Jesse Mecham. Hey, Jesse Mecham, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jesse Mecham:
Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are the founder, CEO, and creator, creative mind, I should say, behind You Need a Budget, affectionately known by many as YNAB. Congratulations on all the success of this product, and really, it's more than a product. It's really a whole suite of tools to help grownups.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're focused on anyone that thinks at some moment in time, "I think I might need a budget," and then we try and convince them that a budget is fun and useful and productive. Then we just teach them kind of a new way of thinking about their money and have them go on their way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the backstory of this really started with you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. I was the first one to realize that I needed a budget, at least that I knew, and my very new wife and I, we were both just newlyweds, broke, both in school. We wanted to get through school. We wanted to do it without taking on any debt, and we weren't making a lot of money at all. So I just thought, "Well, we need to watch this carefully." So I built this little spreadsheet for just me and my wife, Julie. A year later, it had done a lot of heavy lifting for us. We were on the same page. We were saving money.

Jesse Mecham:
Then this little baby came along, and our two big goals, we didn't want to borrow any money for school and we wanted Julie to be able to step out of the workforce and just focus on this baby, and she was the breadwinner at that time. I was still mainly focused on school. So the whole impetus was like, "Well, could we figure out some way to just kind of close that gap?" That was where I thought, "Well, maybe other people would want to use this spreadsheet that Julie and I have used." So we launched it and iterated for the next 17 years, and here we are.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of people are working from home, but they're thinking or they're being told that they're going to come back in some form. So much is up in the air. Give us some money tips for managing this time in our lives.

Jesse Mecham:
Structure. That is the word. You want to build structure in. It's not so you can be uber super productive, right? We're not saying, "Oh, now you can be Superwoman because you've got work right there. You can go sit over there and just start plugging away." Not that at all. It's actually structure to be able to stop working and find time to close things down. So anything you can do, if it's a morning routine and a shutdown routine, our team swears by that, if you have the luxury of finding a separate space with maybe a door that you can close, that's excellent. Headphones that you can pop on and mute things, that's excellent. Anything where you can create structure around your work, but most importantly it's so you can shut things down. We saw a lot of burnout from 2020, not because ... Well, I mean, yeah, because of the pandemic, but because people didn't know how to not be at work when work had come home.

Bobbi Rebell:
All the rules changed when the pandemic hit. It became kind of okay to have kids in the background, but at a certain point, there is a productivity cost. So give us some money tips for parents balancing work and family, especially in this transitional time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're promoters of remote work, and it's been kind of unfair for remote work to have the pandemic come along with the experiment, because what you were dealing with, it's like, "Oh, we don't like working from home because my kids are here." I'm like, "Well, they won't always be there. They'll probably be back in school, and it'll feel different," or suddenly someone's having to just on a whim work from their kitchen table. That's not ideal for basically most everyone. I say most because I do know one person that loves the chaos, and he works, codes right in that. But he is the exception.

Jesse Mecham:
So we don't want to combine our experience of working from home with the fact that we had all these other dynamics with the pandemic, number one, and maybe only, because you'd start here and then see what happened. You've got to have conversations with your spouse. You're probably both working, and you kind of have to say, "Okay, how do we divide and conquer this situation?" But Julie and I, when I used to work in our home, we had to have just straightforward conversations. I would say, "Hey, I'm going to go down." It's like I'm gone, just gone, and she was clear on that. Then she also needed to know from me, "Hey, are you going to come up for lunch? Should I eat without you?" She didn't want to just miss out on something. But it was a little bit of a burden for her if I wasn't very communicative on what my schedule looked like. She's like, "Oh, should I wait around, or should I take off with the kids and go somewhere?"

Jesse Mecham:
So just overly communicating as far as the boundaries go has been really helpful, but you have to recognize you're always going to iterate on this. Everything's changing. Life will change. The kids will get a little older, and they can understand things like, "Hey, don't come in when the door's closed." I lock my door here when I'm doing something like this. It's recording where I'll hear Faye, my little five-year-old, run across the garage floor, and I'll hear her coming. She knows if the door's locked, that means don't knock. That means just give Dad a little bit of time, and I can pop out at some point. But you've got to communicate those boundaries like, "Hey, this is real. I'm really at work."

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's an area that is ripe for improvement in my home, for sure.

Jesse Mecham:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So okay. So your product is YNAB, and I'm sure some people are super fans and some people give you the eye roll. Part of it is that there's a perception that budgets are all about being restrictive. I'd like you to share an experience you had with your wife when you had a certain amount budgeted for groceries, but it wasn't working for her because it wasn't about the money.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, it's almost nothing is ever really about just the money. There's always something at least a few layers deep, and in this instance, I regret to say that it was a 10-year evolution of my learning on this and Julie also learning it as well. But for the most part, when we were first early on married and I was not even working just on YNAB, I had a real job and stuff, I mean, I was swamped doing that, and she was swamped doing these little kids. So we were both pretty swamped. I do still the heavy lifting of the budgeting as far as running the software and making sure everything's reconciled, and then she comes over and I'm like, "Hey, I'm ready for you." She comes over and she looks at it all, and we make sure we're on the same page.

Jesse Mecham:
That was always how it worked, and one of those categories in there was the groceries category. Our third rule of budgeting is to roll with the punches, meaning you can overspend. You just adjust. It's flexible. So every month, we would overspend in groceries, and then literally 10 years in, one day ... So this would mean we had four kids, probably, at the time. I was like ... Same old conversation. It was like a light bulb went off for Julie or something where she's like, "For me, a successful grocery trip doesn't mean I'm under budget. It means that the kids don't meltdown. It means that it's just smooth. It means we're in and out. That's success."

Jesse Mecham:
I was trying to have the old school Julie, when we were first married and she knew the price of every brand of can of corn. But over time, we had evolved, and she didn't have the brain space for it, nor should she have. So it was her recognizing the value that she was placing was on the experience, not on just, "Oh, look how little we spent." Way back when we were first married, it was vital that we spent so little because it was so tight. So I bumped our budget up quite a bit, and we haven't overspent since. That was a big lesson for me. There's usually something behind the scenes when we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and you're speaking to something that hits home for so many of our grownup listeners, that it is an evolution as you go through the different stages of being a grownup. At the early times, when you made that budget initially and the decision about how much money you would have for groceries, she was in a position where it made sense with her time and her attention to be looking at every little price. There sometimes is a time in life when the price within that budget is not the most important thing. It might be the time, that it's not worth her time, resources, especially now, as you have seven children, to know the price of corn or whatever it may be. So I think it's really important that financial grownups understand that things change and that's okay. It's important to be able to adjust things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're a big believer in not having debt. Obviously, you say it's not inevitable, but there are a lot of people that point out that debt can be used for good, like education. You were able to avoid debt for your education. Tell us about that, and give us some tips about avoiding debt, especially for people that are looking at student debt, credit card debt, what have you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. The student debt, I'll kind of set aside for just a moment. Credit card debt, for the most part, at least as it's reported, you see a lot of people say, "The worst situations are someone declares bankruptcy." They'll say, "A lot of the time, it's a medical debt that will kind of tip the scales," but we don't recognize all of the little debts that come along that kind of pile up. Then it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. This final one is a medical bill or something a little bit larger than is the norm. Most people, it's kind of death by a thousand cuts with that credit card balance. So it goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way. It goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way.

Jesse Mecham:
It's really because they're making spending decisions now, not considering future expenses that are going to happen, that are very much going to happen. The car will need to be repaired at some point or an appliance will need to be replaced. So when these abnormal kind of ... Someone will say, "Oh, it's this one-off thing. This isn't a normal month, but we had this one-off kind of 'Ah' experience. I just had a water heater go out. Well, just the pipe for it, where it started shooting a little stream of water in your face if you walked by. We were like, 'Well, we've got to get that fixed.'" That just happens. So that's all real, and there is no such thing as a normal month. So every time we see a new expense pop up, we're like, "Oh, that's abnormal. That's not normally what happens. So I'll just put it on this card because it's a one-off." You find out that that abnormal stuff happens all the time. So we're always kind of telling ourselves that story, and that story isn't true.

Jesse Mecham:
So when we get to our second rule, we are embracing those true expenses, we want people to be able to look ahead to those larger, less frequent expenses that surprise them and break them up into monthly amounts and start saving up for the car repair, the appliance repair, or the vacation, kids' summer camp or whatever it may be, not always just bad things. Then when they're choosing to spend money in the moment, they're considering the future as well. So that thinking shift, and I should say I'm not talking about people that are truly in dire straights. They know how to stretch. I mean, you talk about financial grownups, financial tips, they know how to stretch a dollar in ways that would just blow our minds. So I'm talking about people that make good money. They don't have good information, and so they're just not choosing in the moment based on information that's fit to really give them the answer they need. That's how we slowly get into the credit card debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can you get that information?

Jesse Mecham:
You need to stop looking at your checking account balance as the end all, be all point of information. Say, "Well, how much money do I have? Can I go out to sushi, or are we going to get some cheap pizza? Can I do this? Can I buy these shoes that I just saw or not?" People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Jesse Mecham:
So instead, we want them to follow our first rule. You take that bank balance, you break it up into jobs, and you say, "This month" ... Say we have $1,000. "400 of that is for groceries for the next little while. The 200 of it is for this thing. 100 of it is for a car repair that I know will happen, but I don't know when and I don't know how much, but 100 bucks would be better than zero. I'm going to set that aside this month." You just start breaking that pile of money down. 50 bucks will be for sushi. Then you live according to that plan.

Jesse Mecham:
When your friend says, "Hey, we should go get some sushi," you look at your phone, and instead of seeing that you have $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, yeah, sushi, slam dunk" or you see $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, should I? I don't know," you still don't know, still stressful, you look at the sushi category and you're like, "Oh, I've got 50 bucks. I'm sitting pretty. Let's go do sushi," or you see that your eating out category is $2 and you're like, "You want to just come over? I'll make you some tea or something." But you're not choosing something now without considering all of those future obligations that are going to hit you. That's the key.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to get through a couple other tips we have prepared for our listeners. You talk a lot about embracing your true expenses, and I feel like you were alluding to that in the last answer. What does it mean to embrace your true expenses?

Jesse Mecham:
You have to recognize that expenses are not even. They're not steady. They're like, I don't know, a really unhealthy EKG, maybe, where it's just like, "Boom, here's a big surprise. Boom, here's a big surprise." You always think, "Oh, that's the exception." It's not. It's real. Christmas comes every single year. So if you celebrate Christmas, if you do the gift thing, then you'd say, "Well, how much do we want to spend on that? Maybe it's $600." So you set aside 50 bucks a month. For all of 2021, you're setting aside 50 bucks a month, and then when Christmas comes, you have $600. Instead of flipping it around and starting to say, "Oh, well, I don't have any money, so I'll just put it on a card and then I'll pay that down," think about it this way, Bobbi. It's always you and future you that are sitting there with the pile of money. Future you needs to have a voice at the table.

Jesse Mecham:
If you think about the debt situation that you asked me about earlier, when you say someone's like, "Oh, we'll put that on a payment plan. We'll put this on a payment plan. That's the name of the game," that person, that company is thinking about future them. They're like, "Oh, man, it'd be great if you'd finance this car. Absolutely. It'd be great for us." They're totally thinking about future them, future quarterly earnings things for shareholders, future bank balance. I mean, they're all over the future. Then you have the person that signs it away saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that note for this car." They're not thinking about the future. I'm trying to flip that around. I'm trying to have people think about their future and position themselves to be future-oriented, where then they're making decisions with both of you in mind, future Bobbi, present Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and it's hard, because the truth is one of the things that worries a lot of us right now is that things like you talk about a car, car loans are getting longer and longer in term to make the payments look lower, but ultimately, you're paying more, and it's over your head for a very long time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're orienting where they know. Well, don't even look at the repo situation. I mean, how many times people will get cars repossessed, and the same car will get repossessed five times. There is someone making money in that scenario, and it's not the person driving the car. So that seven-year note that you see on cars now, they used to be three, then five. Now they're seven. All that is is an evolution of the financing of that GM, Ford. Every car company makes most of their money, most of their profits from the financing side of this, not from the manufacture of the car. They're putting it out to seven years because they know that future Toyota, future Honda, no knock on any of the companies, but they are future- and profit-oriented, and people that are buying the car are now-oriented.

Jesse Mecham:
That's where we have to just try and get that shift to happen. So you start paying yourself a car payment, saving up cash for it over time. It might mean that you buy a car that's beneath you for a little while, but then you trade up over time and you start paying cash for that. You get out of that car payment trap. It's not a given.

Bobbi Rebell:
Or you don't trade up. A lot of really wealthy people drive really crummy cars.

Jesse Mecham:
It is absolutely. Yeah. They're hiding in plain sight.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. One final tip. What does it mean to age your money?

Jesse Mecham:
So we're essentially talking about if you were to earn a dollar today that it would be 30 to 60 days before you actually spent that dollar. So when a dollar enters your system, the clock starts ticking, and that dollar starts getting older and older and older. Right now, most people that are living paycheck to paycheck, they are spending dollars. I mean, they have a pile of bills just waiting for money to land, and we want to flip that around. We want to have a pile of money where bills come and land and you're like, "Oh, okay, I've got the money here set aside."

Jesse Mecham:
If you follow our first three rules, which we talk about ad nauseum, if you follow our first three rules, that fourth rule where you start to spend money that's a little older, a little older, a little older, it almost just happens automatically. It's a way to step back from the financial edge. You sleep better. You can talk more effectively about money with your partner because the stress levels are much lower. You make better decisions because of those stress levels being lower. You probably live longer because your stress levels are lower.

Jesse Mecham:
That's the aging your money concept. Spend money that is old. When you think about swiping a card, you actually spend money that ... Well, the metaphor breaks down, but it hasn't even been born yet. You haven't even earned it yet. The shift that we're seeing where companies are paying people for that day, for that shift, and they think that's going to help people break the paycheck to paycheck cycle, that's not going to do it. We're just pushing that can down the road. We have to have people start to orient themselves around thinking a little further ahead.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the way that you are reframing this and the different perspectives that you're giving, because I'm sitting here listening, and my mind is turning. It's so interesting to come at this from a different perspective. So thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find out more about you and about your company?

Jesse Mecham:
You can just go to youneedabudget.com, and we are on all the social stuff. We're even on TikTok, which I don't even understand, but we're there. I personally am not on any of the social stuff. I stay plenty busy not doing that. But you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, all over the place. My podcast is called You Need a Budget as well, and if you loved listening to this silky voice, you can listen to it all you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
So great having you. Thank you.

Jesse Mecham:
Thanks so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's review some of what we learned from Jesse. First of all, it took 17 years for Jesse to get his business where it is now. So be prepared to play the long game with your goals. If you are working from home for the long haul, make sure you create structure to put up guardrails and protect your time so you don't get burned out. Remember, the kids are going back to school. Because kids were home at the same time, remote work was very different during the pandemic. With the kids back in school, it likely will be easier, but make sure to communicate with your family about exactly how things are going to run. Be prepared for abnormal expenses, which are actually kind of routine. We just don't think of it that way. Start putting money aside for unexpected expenses that you know to expect.

Bobbi Rebell:
Consider the future. When you were about to buy something, are you considering future you and how that will impact future you, the decision you make today, right? Break up your money and give every dollar a job to start getting control of your money. Think it through. When you borrow money, like for a car, know that the companies stretch out the length of the loan to make those payments lower. Do the math, but I'm going to bet you probably are going to pay more in the end. Age your money. Try to wait and have money in your account for a period of time before you spend it. It'll take a lot of anxiety out of your life. How do you lower the stress levels when it comes to money? I'd love to hear your ideas. DM me at bobbirebell1, and let me know.

Bobbi Rebell:
A reminder, if you are shopping for gifts, please check out grownupgear.com. I will be eternally grateful for your business. As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to grownupgear.com each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. We could also call it Financial Independence Day, I hope. I don't know. Maybe. There are two ways to enter to win. Take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, and tag me at bobbirebell1. Then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. That's hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter to win a $50 gift card to grownupgear.com is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. So easy, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Grownup Gear, as I like to say, is it's a micro business. We really do need and appreciate all of your support, so check it out and, of course, tell your friends. Big thanks to Jesse Mecham of You Need a Budget for helping us lower our stress levels and be our best financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup, the podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free. But I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

After being stuck at home for more than a year, many of us are ready to spend! This week’s Financial Grownup Dr. George Blount says that’s actually ok. But there’s some important strategies to keep us out of trouble when we hit that “buy” button.

George’s Money Tips

George Blount:
I'm a financial therapist. I means I help people with their emotional relationship with money, and that usually takes place in a few aspects. There are five areas of financial health and that's the economic, the relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional elements of financial health and I try to help individuals with each of those. The economic is the most common one that is primarily products and services or processes that people are used to. The parts that people are not as familiar with, or delving deeper into your financial behavior kind of some of the feelings that you have, the psychological aspects of money, or maybe the emotional response that you have the money. So I try to delve deeper into those aspects.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper now. Let's talk about spending habits and ways to improve them. What are your top tips for that to begin with? And then we'll get back into the emotional things and the economic stuff that you were talking about.

George Blount:
Yeah. Some of the things that are going to be helpful to at least curb your spending are first and foremost, putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase. So if you have a reason, or if you have a goal that you're aligning some of your spending to, it makes it easier for you to be aware of the spending, one, it also allows you to have a timeframe on what is an appropriate amount of spending and then what's an appropriate time to enjoy that spending and sort of really just allows you to have a better understanding.

George Blount:
The second thing I would say is the pace. We just have to understand that you don't always have to spend money right away. So as you come up with these decisions, or as you have an opportunity to spend really think about it, take a little bit of time before you make that decision and then you move forward. So having a purpose to your purchases, and then think about the pace that you have in your spending as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming out of the pandemic a lot of us feel whether we're aware of it or not, this urge to splurge, we call it revenge spending. How do you manage that? What do you do? Because we've had this pent up, we've literally been pent up, I should say, for so long that I don't know, we feel like we deserve it. Right?

George Blount:
So it's important to look at it as not a zero sum game. There are some things that are bad habits that were formed throughout this period of time, but then there are also some good things that happen throughout this period of time. So you can look back and say, "Okay, I have improved in these areas. I've saved in this part of my spending," or, "I improved my saving in this area. So that's something that I want to hold on to, and this is something that I'm doing that that I really don't want to hold onto. It's a poor habit and I need to get rid of it."

George Blount:
So really comparing and contrasting some of the good things and bad things that you have learned, and then making a choice that the mindful spending is really about presenting yourself with viable alternatives and then selecting the appropriate choice for you. So that when you're spending isn't based on regret or some type of emotional element, but where it's based on achieving a goal and based on some type of alignment to an objective that is going to serve well for the longer term.

Bobbi Rebell:
What role does peer pressure play in our spending, especially now when other people are telling us we deserve certain things?

George Blount:
Yeah. It takes a large part of our brain capacity to really hear what everybody else is saying. So it's a really significant part of what we deal with. Peer pressure is something that allows us to exacerbate some of our bad spending. Maybe it amplifies or validate some of our good behaviors, but let's just talk about the negative side of it, because that's what we see. People in general don't need a lot of people to tell them what to do. In fact, we trust information from a very small number of people. So if we hear a couple of things from a small number of people that we may trust, or that we believe in, we take it to heart.

George Blount:
So sometimes if it may not be well-informed financial decisions, or it may be more of an opinion that someone has based on their previous experience as opposed to an educational opportunity, then it really is a negative effect of peer pressure. So we need to try to avoid that because it's pretty popular and we should probably convert it to some of the other forms, which is maybe listen to your professors or, or some of the journalist, or maybe the contextual way that some individuals can allow conversations to make sense. That's good peer pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any specific suggestions to combat that when someone say, "Oh, you haven't bought anything in this long. Just get it."

George Blount:
I think I would always recommend there's a simulation that you can play. It's a playspent.org, playS-P-E-N-T.org. And what it is, it's just a simulation on trying to balance out your spending and it takes about five minutes or so to go through. But go through that exercise and it is a hypothetical simulation of whether or not you could save money in a month and what types of activities may come in throughout the month that can deter your spending or deter your savings. And that single perspective is often really good and allowing people to understand just the randomness that life presents when it comes to our financial decisions, our financial purchases, or where we need to save.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some red flags to look for?

George Blount:
Red flags I think normally will come from things that you don't feel well about. When I talk to individuals and I say, "I help people with their emotional relationship with money." Some people don't know what that emotional relationship is. It's hard to describe, you can't go into it and we have to go through this mode of discovery. Some people understand it very well. And some people know that there are bad influences on their spending, where they're spending to make themselves feel better, or they're doing things that they know that they just don't want to do. So if you subconsciously know that, or even if you are overtly saying that that would be a red flag.

Bobbi Rebell:
And a lot of people became more comfortable online shopping than ever during the pandemic. What can we do to make sure that we're not overspending in terms of online?

George Blount:
Limiting the exposure to your phone, your screen time, similar to the way that you would with social media and you take a fast or you take a little break, you have to do the same thing with the shopping apps that are on your phone. You can remove them, you can take a break from them, nothing to look at them. I think the more we are away from it, it's a little bit easier.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about also subscribing to newsletters, websites, store cards, that kind of stuff?

George Blount:
Yeah. I think as long as it is serving a purpose. Again, you have this a situation where you're looking at information that is going to allow you to one way or another, make a purchase that satisfies your need or not. So if it's purposeful, then by all means go right ahead. But if it's not, I think that's where there's a problem. So just giving yourself better alternatives is always going to be the approach that I would recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

George Blount:
Yeah, I would just add two things to think. The first one is that as you mentioned, I think more people have become more comfortable shopping online. I think more people, they've gotten a lot better at seeking help out. So maybe it is not always been seen as appropriate to seek out therapy when it comes to your financial decisions, but that is something that is very possible as well. I think the second thing is you can always look at trusted sources like mymoney.gov, For places that will give you great information on how you should spend, how you should save and terms that are incredibly important. And that's free websites that are accessible to everybody.

Follow George!

• Instagram - @nbalancefinancial

• Facebook - @nbalancefinancial

• Twitter - @nbalancefin

• YouTube

• LinkedIn

• Website - www.nbalancefinancial.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grown-up for 15% off, your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

George Blount:
Putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we've got this. Hello grownups, feeling the urge to splurge these days? Maybe a little revenge spending after over a year of basically being stuck at home. That is totally normal and probably okay. A little, as long as you follow the rules you are going to hear from this week's guest financial therapist, Dr. George Blount, Managing Partner at nBalance Financial. Dr. Blount works with individuals on financial matters, but with a special focus on the emotional, behavioral and psychological elements that impact their financial decisions. In our interview, Dr. Blount walks us through the five areas of financial health, and then we're going to get into his money tips and how we can all still enjoy spending and even splurging without derailing our goals. Here is Dr. George Blount. Dr. George Blount, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

George Blount:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. Pleasure to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am excited to have you on, you're going to be sharing your tips to improve our spending habits. But before we do that, I introduced you as Dr. George Blount. You're a financial therapist, tell us about that.

George Blount:
Yep. So I'm a financial therapist. I means I help people with their emotional relationship with money, and that usually takes place in a few aspects. There are five areas of financial health and that's the economic, the relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional elements of financial health and I try to help individuals with each of those. The economic is the most common one that is primarily products and services or processes that people are used to. The parts that people are not as familiar with, or delving deeper into your financial behavior kind of some of the feelings that you have, the psychological aspects of money, or maybe the emotional response that you have the money. So I try to delve deeper into those aspects.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper now. Let's talk about spending habits and ways to improve them. What are your top tips for that to begin with? And then we'll get back into the emotional things and the economic stuff that you were talking about.

George Blount:
Yeah. Some of the things that are going to be helpful to at least curb your spending are first and foremost, putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase. So if you have a reason, or if you have a goal that you're aligning some of your spending to, it makes it easier for you to be aware of the spending, one, it also allows you to have a timeframe on what is an appropriate amount of spending and then what's an appropriate time to enjoy that spending and sort of really just allows you to have a better understanding.

George Blount:
The second thing I would say is the pace. We just have to understand that you don't always have to spend money right away. So as you come up with these decisions, or as you have an opportunity to spend really think about it, take a little bit of time before you make that decision and then you move forward. So having a purpose to your purchases, and then think about the pace that you have in your spending as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming out of the pandemic a lot of us feel whether we're aware of it or not, this urge to splurge, we call it revenge spending. How do you manage that? What do you do? Because we've had this pent up, we've literally been pent up, I should say, for so long that I don't know, we feel like we deserve it. Right?

George Blount:
So it's important to look at it as not a zero sum game. There are some things that are bad habits that were formed throughout this period of time, but then there are also some good things that happen throughout this period of time. So you can look back and say, "Okay, I have improved in these areas. I've saved in this part of my spending," or, "I improved my saving in this area. So that's something that I want to hold on to, and this is something that I'm doing that that I really don't want to hold onto. It's a poor habit and I need to get rid of it."

George Blount:
So really comparing and contrasting some of the good things and bad things that you have learned, and then making a choice that the mindful spending is really about presenting yourself with viable alternatives and then selecting the appropriate choice for you. So that when you're spending isn't based on regret or some type of emotional element, but where it's based on achieving a goal and based on some type of alignment to an objective that is going to serve well for the longer term.

Bobbi Rebell:
What role does peer pressure play in our spending, especially now when other people are telling us we deserve certain things?

George Blount:
Yeah. It takes a large part of our brain capacity to really hear what everybody else is saying. So it's a really significant part of what we deal with. Peer pressure is something that allows us to exacerbate some of our bad spending. Maybe it amplifies or validate some of our good behaviors, but let's just talk about the negative side of it, because that's what we see. People in general don't need a lot of people to tell them what to do. In fact, we trust information from a very small number of people. So if we hear a couple of things from a small number of people that we may trust, or that we believe in, we take it to heart.

George Blount:
So sometimes if it may not be well-informed financial decisions, or it may be more of an opinion that someone has based on their previous experience as opposed to an educational opportunity, then it really is a negative effect of peer pressure. So we need to try to avoid that because it's pretty popular and we should probably convert it to some of the other forms, which is maybe listen to your professors or, or some of the journalist, or maybe the contextual way that some individuals can allow conversations to make sense. That's good peer pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any specific suggestions to combat that when someone say, "Oh, you haven't bought anything in this long. Just get it."

George Blount:
I think I would always recommend there's a simulation that you can play. It's a playspent.org, playS-P-E-N-T.org. And what it is, it's just a simulation on trying to balance out your spending and it takes about five minutes or so to go through. But go through that exercise and it is a hypothetical simulation of whether or not you could save money in a month and what types of activities may come in throughout the month that can deter your spending or deter your savings. And that single perspective is often really good and allowing people to understand just the randomness that life presents when it comes to our financial decisions, our financial purchases, or where we need to save.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some red flags to look for?

George Blount:
Red flags I think normally will come from things that you don't feel well about. When I talk to individuals and I say, "I help people with their emotional relationship with money." Some people don't know what that emotional relationship is. It's hard to describe, you can't go into it and we have to go through this mode of discovery. Some people understand it very well. And some people know that there are bad influences on their spending, where they're spending to make themselves feel better, or they're doing things that they know that they just don't want to do. So if you subconsciously know that, or even if you are overtly saying that that would be a red flag.

Bobbi Rebell:
And a lot of people became more comfortable online shopping than ever during the pandemic. What can we do to make sure that we're not overspending in terms of online?

George Blount:
Limiting the exposure to your phone, your screen time, similar to the way that you would with social media and you take a fast or you take a little break, you have to do the same thing with the shopping apps that are on your phone. You can remove them, you can take a break from them, nothing to look at them. I think the more we are away from it, it's a little bit easier.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about also subscribing to newsletters, websites, store cards, that kind of stuff?

George Blount:
Yeah. I think as long as it is serving a purpose. Again, you have this a situation where you're looking at information that is going to allow you to one way or another, make a purchase that satisfies your need or not. So if it's purposeful, then by all means go right ahead. But if it's not, I think that's where there's a problem. So just giving yourself better alternatives is always going to be the approach that I would recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

George Blount:
Yeah, I would just add two things to think. The first one is that as you mentioned, I think more people have become more comfortable shopping online. I think more people, they've gotten a lot better at seeking help out. So maybe it is not always been seen as appropriate to seek out therapy when it comes to your financial decisions, but that is something that is very possible as well. I think the second thing is you can always look at trusted sources like mymoney.gov, For places that will give you great information on how you should spend, how you should save and terms that are incredibly important. And that's free websites that are accessible to everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Where can people find out more about you and be in touch?

George Blount:
Absolutely. So they can go to my website, which is nbalancefinancial.com. And that's N-B-L-A-N-C-E, that's nbalancefinancial.com. And they can always get in touch with me directly through that site. I'm located in Boston, but servicing all throughout the US through this virtual environment.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

George Blount:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. It's just been such a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's review some of Dr. Blount's money tips. First of all, there are five areas of financial health, economic, relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional. To curb your spending, put a goal in front of you, a purpose to your purchase. Watch out for negative peer pressure and make sure to include vetted third party information when you're making big money decisions. Take a break, not just from social media, which pushes those shopping ads, but also from those shopping apps on your phone. It may not be something that you think of naturally, but there is a lot of emotion and psychology in our financial decisions, and it may be worth seeking therapy if you find yourself struggling with your financial situation, especially in these times that are really unprecedented. One thing that is definitely okay to spend the right amount of money on is celebrating life's adulting moments. And the best place of course, to get those gifts is at grownupgear.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you haven't checked it out yet, take a look. We have the perfect gift for all of those adulting celebrations, those adulting milestones that we celebrate from graduations, to engagements, bridal showers, new homes, birthdays, becoming new parents, all those good things. As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to grown-up gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. And maybe we can also call it financial independence day. I don't know. Anyway, there are two ways to enter to win. Way number one is to take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, tag me @bobbirebell1. And then also this is key, email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. That's hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot, and then send that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Growing up here is what we like to call a micro business, and we really do and appreciate all of your support. So please check it out and tell your friends. We also appreciated Dr. George Blount for helping us all be financial grownups. Money tips for financial grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

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Rachel Rodgers is back! She has a new book "We Should All Be Millionaires" plus why broken kitchen cabinets drive her nuts and why she is throwing out her “shitty bras”. Rachel also updates us on the Rodgers Ranch and her company Hello Seven.

Rachel’s Tips

Tip #1- We have this thing where we want to be liked. Every human wants to be liked, this is not unique to women, but our culture has created this situation where women think they need to be nice and they need to be liked by all. Let me tell you something, that is a losing game. That desire to be liked really kills your ability to generate more money. I think, we think like, "Oh, if I make a bunch of money, people are not going to like me." You know what? People already don't like you, so who cares? Might as well make some money.

Tip #2- It's just little things like that, where we have shabby conditions around us that make us feel shabby inside. When you wake up and your environment tells you, "You know what? You must be a boss because look at this environment that you're in," guess what? You're going to go out there and you're going to make million-dollar decisions all day, every day. It really shifts your energy when you are in an environment that makes you feel really good.

Tip #3-Are you surrounding yourself with people who make broke decisions all day? Is your best girlfriend, Brenda, calling you to complain about her job every day, but never does anything to go get a better job or talk to her boss about it or deal with her situation? Or are you surrounded by people who when you say, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this exciting thing. Hey, I'm thinking about buying a house. Hey, I'm thinking about making this money move," they're like, "Ooh, I wouldn't do that," and discouraging you and being very negative about it and making you feel bad about being ambitious? When you have those kinds of people around you all day, trust me, it is affecting your ability to make million-dollar decisions. This is literally nonstop. This is exactly how it works, and there's science to back it up. Harvard studies, where it shows that the people that you spend the most time with, 95% of your success or failure in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish comes from the people you surround yourself with on a daily basis. If you are surrounding yourself with naysayers, people who are negative, people who are not ambitious at all, people who are discouraging, you are going to be discouraged and you're likely not going to make the moves that you want to be making.

Tip #4- Okay, a lot of times we say, "Well, I really want to upgrade my home, but I don't have enough money." One of the sections of the book, what we talk about is can we flip that but to an and? Can we say instead of, "I want to do this thing, but I can't afford it," what if you said, "I want to do this thing and I don't currently have the money." Cool, now that opens up possibilities. It makes you feel like, "Oh, okay. These are the facts of the case. I want to do this thing and I don't have the money right now, but what could I do to change the situation?" I could potentially change it. It creates opportunity. It opens it up, it expands the possibilities. Whereas when you say, "But," it's kind of like it closes the door on that being a possibility, it closes the door on that opportunity. I encourage you to be and people instead of but people. This goes to the peer group. Are you surrounded by people who can say, "Yes, that's true, and what could you do differently? Let's brainstorm some opportunities." Imagine if we had friends who would brainstorm business opportunities, money-making opportunities, networking opportunities with us, instead of talking about everything that's wrong with the world and just complaining all the time and commiserating. We could do that too, but let's make sure that we are also being expansive. If you change your but to and, that might open up some creativity for you to come up with solutions to the financial problems that come up.

Follow Rachel!

• Instagram - @hello7co

• Instagram - @therodgersranch

• Instagram - @rachrodgersesq

• Facebook - @Hello7Co

• Facebook - @rachelrodgerslaw

• Twitter - @rachrodgersesq

• Rachel’s website - www.helloseven.co

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

It is officially spring, and that means graduation season is on. We here at the Financial Grownup Podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and the seriously most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts, all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup Gear also makes great gifts for Mother's Day, Father's Day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette parties, birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code GRADUATION for a 15% discount, and thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and we truly appreciate your support.

Rachel Rodgers :

We did a 10K in 10 Days challenge with 350 of our clients. The average was like $6,700 per person, and they, as a group, made $2.4 million in 10 days.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes, my friends, $10,000 in 10 days, do you dare take the challenge? You want to hear about it though, right? Rachel Rodgers is back and the perfect guest for our newly updated format here on Money Tips for Financial Grownups. If you missed the bonus episode, it should be just before this one in your feed, but in short, we're streamlining the show to focus more on money tips to help us all be our best financial grownups. I lost count of all the incredible money tips that Rachel shares in our interview, but you're going to hear ... sound every time she drops one.

Bobbi Rebell:

Rachel, who is the CEO of HelloSeven and runs the Rodgers' Ranch, which you're going to hear about in our interview, has a new book out called We Should All be Millionaires. I read it cover to cover in one sitting and you should too, then you should also go back and make note of all the gems in the book. But first, let's get some extra money tips in our interview. Here is Rachel Rodgers.

Bobbi Rebell:

Rachel Rodgers, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast again, welcome back.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yay, I'm so glad to be back. I'm excited.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, we're celebrating because your book, We Should All be Billionaires: A Woman's Guide to Earning More, Building Wealth, and Gaining Economic Power, is released today, the day that this episode is coming out. Tell us high level about the book and what we can expect.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Well, you can expect some tough love and you can expect a guide to becoming a millionaire, making a million dollars. I think we need that. We shoot for six figures and it's not enough, I don't know if you've noticed. You probably have, because you're a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I live in New York City.

Rachel Rodgers :

Exactly, but I want women to be shooting for seven figures so that we can really make a massive impact. The reality is that 2% of women entrepreneurs ever hit the seven-figure mark, and when it comes to the world's billionaires, very, very few of them are women. I think we need to understand how to earn more, and that's what this book is about. It's not about what to put in your 401k or how to invest, what to do with your money on the backend. No, it's about how to get more of it in the first place.

Bobbi Rebell:

You challenge your clients to come up with a way to make $10,000 in 10 days. Let's just start with the results, and then tell me some of the ways that you could make $10,000 in 10 days.

Rachel Rodgers :

We did a 10K in 10 Days challenge with 350 of our clients, and they, as a group, made $2.4 million in 10 days.

Bobbi Rebell:

What was the average?

Rachel Rodgers :

The average was like $6,700 per person, approximately.

Bobbi Rebell:

Which is incredible.

Rachel Rodgers :

I mean, incredible, right? To me, it's not about the money. It's about the fact that what I'm trying to prove and what I want women to be able to prove to themselves is that you can earn as much as you want, whenever you want. You have the ability to generate cash whenever you need to. I think we have a money problem come up and we're like, "I don't know what I'm going to do. Let me start cutting things and slashing things. Let me start shrinking my life," and I'm like, "I do the opposite." If something comes up and I want to spend money on something, I'm like, "Okay, well, let me think about what are my different ways of earning more and which one am I going to choose? Okay, great. I'm going to choose that one, let me put it out there," and then I earn that money in 30 days or less and then I go do that thing I wanted to do.

Bobbi Rebell:

What are some of the best ways people came up with to earn money?

Rachel Rodgers :

Oh, it was amazing. There were people having yard sales, people were just reaching out to past clients who owed them money and they just hadn't reached out to them and said, "Hey, you owe me money. Hey, you hadn't paid your invoice, can you go ahead and take care of that?" They made all this money from clients that were like six months late, just because they weren't following up. I'm like, "Honey, we need to focus on our money and not let all of those dollars trickle out of our hands." That's what I see happening with women as a whole, and so I'm asking us to hold ourselves accountable to really pay attention to our money.

Rachel Rodgers :

That was some of the things that they did. They launched new programs, they created products. They had ideas for all these different ways that they could make money or they thought like, "Oh, one day maybe I'll do X," and I'm like, "I challenge you to go do X right now," and they would do it. They would launch a new program or launch a product and put it out there. They didn't even have to create the product or the program yet, they could just say, "Hey, this is coming. Would you like one? If you purchase it early, here's what happens. You have 10 days to say, yes, you want it," they buy it and then you have a little bit of time to go create the thing and deliver it.

Bobbi Rebell:

And it's also a proven idea. One of my favorite parts of the book, you say you have three ways that women make bad money decisions. What are the three ways that women make bad money decisions?

Rachel Rodgers :

Well, we have this thing where we want to be liked, it's like every human wants to be liked, this is not unique to women, but our culture has created this situation where women think they need to be nice and they need to be liked by all. Let me tell you something, that is a losing game. That desire to be liked really kills your ability to generate more money. I think, we think like, "Oh, if I make a bunch of money, people are not going to like me." You know what? People already don't like you, so who cares? Might as well make some money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Absolutely. Okay, number two, what was the second thing?

Rachel Rodgers :

Environment. We're in this broke (beep) environment. We have (beep) bras. I literally just bought 12 new bras because we've been in a pandemic and every bra has a busted strap, the wire is broken. I was like, "Honey, get your life together." It was just things like that. One of my clients used to have a cabinet in her kitchen that would not open all the way, and because of that, she had a small little kitchen and so it was all shoved into the other cabinets. Every time she opened her cabinets, all this (beep) falling out. She was just like, "This drives me nuts literally all day, every day," every time she's making coffee, every time she's preparing a meal.

Rachel Rodgers :

It's just little things like that, where we have shabby conditions around us that make us feel shabby inside. When you wake up and your environment tells you, "You know what? You must be a boss because look at this environment that you're in," guess what? You're going to go out there and you're going to make million-dollar decisions all day, every day. It really shifts your energy when you are in an environment that makes you feel really good.

Bobbi Rebell:

And then the third one has to do with who we surround ourselves with, right?

Rachel Rodgers :

Exactly. Are you surrounding yourself with people who make broke (beep) decisions all day? Is your best girlfriend, Brenda, calling you to complain about her job every day, but never does anything to go get a better job or talk to her boss about it or deal with her situation? Or are you surrounded by people who when you say, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this exciting thing. Hey, I'm thinking about buying a house. Hey, I'm thinking about making this money move," they're like, "Ooh, I wouldn't do that," and discouraging you and being very negative about it and making you feel bad about being ambitious? When you have those kinds of people around you all day, trust me, it is affecting your ability to make million-dollar decisions.

Rachel Rodgers :

This is literally nonstop. This is exactly how it works, and there's science to back it up. Harvard studies, where it shows that the people that you spend the most time with, 95% of your success or failure in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish comes from the people you surround yourself with on a daily basis. If you are surrounding yourself with naysayers, people who are negative, people who are not ambitious at all, people who are discouraging, you are going to be discouraged and you're likely not going to make the moves that you want to be making.

Bobbi Rebell:

Another money tip in the book that I love has to do with flipping just one word. Tell us about that.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Okay, a lot of times we say, "Well, I really want to upgrade my home, but I don't have enough money." One of the sections of the book, what we talk about is can we flip that but to an and? Can we say instead of, "I want to do this thing, but I can't afford it," what if you said, "I want to do this thing and I don't currently have the money." Cool, now that opens up possibilities. It makes you feel like, "Oh, okay. These are the facts of the case. I want to do this thing and I don't have the money right now, but what could I do to change the situation?" I could potentially change it. It creates opportunity. It opens it up, it expands the possibilities. Whereas when you say, "But," it's kind of like it closes the door on that being a possibility, it closes the door on that opportunity. I encourage you to be and people instead of but people.

Rachel Rodgers :

This goes to the peer group. Are you surrounded by people who can say, "Yes, that's true, and what could you do differently? Let's brainstorm some opportunities." Imagine if we had friends who would brainstorm business opportunities, money-making opportunities, networking opportunities with us, instead of talking about everything that's wrong with the world and just complaining all the time and commiserating. We could do that too, but let's make sure that we are also being expansive. If you change your but to and, that might open up some creativity for you to come up with solutions to the financial problems that come up.

Bobbi Rebell:

Changing the way that you frame how you see things, so important. You also talk about taking certain tests to figure out basically where your talent is, where you're most likely to be the most successful.

Rachel Rodgers :

One of the things that we recommend is that we do an assessment, a skills assessment, to see what skills have I acquired over the years, what are my natural talents and gifts and strengths, what am I naturally good at, what do people come to me all the time to ask me for, where you can start to really hone in on the way that you add value in the world and then how can you capitalize on that skill, how can you start charging for that service, or how can you create a product based on that skillset that can increase your earning potential.

Bobbi Rebell:

And there are specific tests you recommend.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes, exactly. You can take StrengthsFinders, Kolbe, DiSC. There's also a great book called The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. Each one of these will help you assess for yourself where your natural talents and skills lie, and so you can figure out where is my money-making potential.

Bobbi Rebell:

You were waiting for a client's check.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you needed that money. It's very relatable in the last year, because we all learned how important having that cash cushion, whether you label it as an emergency fund or just savings, whatever it may be, you were in a precarious position waiting on money to come in. Tell us what you needed the money for, what was going on, and how it was resolved.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. This was years ago, I was probably two years into building my business. I was pregnant with my son, my daughter was one years old. I was trying to put her in daycare. I was working from home, my husband was in school at the time. My child had been home with us for a full year, there was zero childcare. My child was with her father or me or both of us for the whole first year of her life. I'm trying to grow a law practice, so I needed childcare, and searched for the right childcare, found a great place and her spot came up on the wait list. I'm like, "Great." Now, I'm waiting for this corporate check to come from a client. This was one of my first corporate clients and it was a big check for $5,000, which was the most money that I had ever received at one time in my life at the time.

Rachel Rodgers :

I'm waiting for months for this check to come, because we all know corporations, sometimes it's like net 30. I mean, they just pay you when they feel like it, basically. Three, four months later, finally the check shows up, I go to the bank to deposit, I'm like, "Thank God, I'm going to deposit this check and then immediately write a check for the daycare and go drop that off so that I can hold her spot," because it was like the last day to reserve her spot. I get to the bank, I deposit it, I'm all giddy and excited. I mean, I'm in my sweats, looking like crap, but who cares, I got money so I'm happy. I go to deposit it and the bank teller says, "Great, that'll be a two-week hold," and I'm like, "Pardon me? What?" I'm whispering to her because I don't want the other people in the bank to hear me and I'm like, "Is there any way you can make that available like today?" and she's like, "Nope, I can't because it's an out-of-state check."

Rachel Rodgers :

She sent me to go talk to the branch manager. I go talk to the branch manager, who's an older white guy. Here I am in my sweats looking like a broke (beep) college student and not a trustworthy professional. I go and talk to him and tell him I need the money right away. My face is getting red and I'm just absolutely mortified to be an attorney who has to go beg the branch manager to make her money available right away. It was a good wake up call. I was watching the branch manager and another banker looking at their monitor, I could tell they're scrolling through my account, looking at all my purchases. I'm sitting there and I'm feeling the hot tears come, my face is all red. As I sat there, I just had this moment where I was like, "Never again. This is my fault that I'm here right now and it will never, ever happen again."

Rachel Rodgers :

Luckily, they did release the check, I was able to put my daughter in childcare. That year I took that business from $60,000 a year to $300,000, so 5X'd my revenue, because I got focused because I realized the money was on me. Somebody else isn't going to make that money for me, it's not going to manifest out of thin air, and it's nobody's fault necessarily. Yes, there are systemic things at play. There is racism and sexism at play for sure, and at the same time, I also have a choice in the matter and there's also decisions that I'm making on a daily basis. I held myself to being a financial grownup, and that year, I really grew up and made a lot more money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Just one of the many, many incredible and inspiring stories in your new book. Tell us, we know the book is available everywhere, what else should people be looking out for from you? I know you have a course associated with the book and a lot more going on at the Rodgers' Ranch and so on. Tell us.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Lord, I seem to have way too much going on. We have a podcast called the HelloSeven Podcast. We're always interviewing women, definitely women of color, who are making seven figures or more, because again, I like to provide my clients with evidence.

Bobbi Rebell:

And the Rodgers' Ranch, what's going on there?

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes, we have been fixing it up. It's so funny, my children are right outside my window. My little cottage is right next to the arena where we do horse training and lessons and stuff. My kids are out there right now, riding horses. Yeah, we're crazy up in here. We've also been renovating our retreat house. We're going to be opening up to be able to offer our retreat house up to people who want to come and have a little equestrian getaway here in North Carolina, in the next couple of weeks, so that's really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you have social handles for all these things, right?

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. We are @therodgersranch, Rodgers with a D, on Instagram. Then my personal Instagram is @rachrodgersesq, and you can follow my company, HelloSeven, @hello7co.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much for coming back to the show.

Rachel Rodgers :

Thank you for having me. I love talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, let's review some of the key money tips that Rachel gave us. First of all, aim high. Rachel is all about seven figures, not six. Having high goals is a win-win. If you reach it, you win, but if you get closer than you would have with a lower goal, you also are better off and you still have more room to grow, win. One of the easiest ways to make money is to collect the money that you are owed receivables matter, get them settled. Sell before you create, that way you prove the concept and you have built in pre-orders when you do launch. Just be careful to manage timeline expectations for when customers will get the product.

Bobbi Rebell:

Get over getting everyone to like you and choose who you spend your time with very carefully. Be a friend, be a business colleague, do not be a therapist, unless of course you are a therapist. Make the effort to create a work environment where you will be your most productive. People are shocked that I wrote most of my book, How to Be a Financial Grownup, at a big ugly Formica table under bright lights at the Whole Foods across the street from my apartment. But you know what? There were no distractions and there was great wifi, it worked. Try to experiment a bit and find what works for you. And take a skills assessment test. We'll have the links to the ones Rachel suggested in the show notes.

Bobbi Rebell:

Friends, there is also a companion course to Rachel's book. You can find out more on her website, which we will also have linked in the show notes. Let me know how you guys liked the updated format. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and get more money tips by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and signing up for our now weekly Money Tips newsletter. Big thanks to Rachel Rodgers for coming back and sharing her money tips for financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Saven is our talent coordinator and content creators, so yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com, and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts, it only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Follow Rachel!

• Instagram - @hello7co

• Instagram - @therodgersranch

• Instagram - @rachrodgersesq

• Facebook - @Hello7Co

• Facebook - @rachelrodgerslaw

• Twitter - @rachrodgersesq

• Rachel’s website - www.helloseven.co

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Catherine Alford did everything right as she got ready to start a family with her medical student husband. But the unexpected and financially devastating cost of her newborn twins forced her to make some tough choices, that have changed her whole view of the world. Plus- her top negotiating tip and a preview of her new book Moms Got Money: A Millennial Mom’s Guide to Managing Money Like a Boss. 

Catherine’s Money Story-

Before I became self-employed, before I gave birth to twins in 2014, I had chronicled my whole plan to become self-employed, super motivating. I saved this $10,000 baby fund. I saved all this money because I knew we'd have to move shortly after having the kids. I kept showing everyone the side hustles of this, the building up, so I was very organized and prepared which is sort of my way with money. But after I had the twins, after we moved, all of those things, having preemie twins, having some health problems with them, it pretty much drained everything I had saved and announced to thousands of people in the world on my blog that I had saved. And the twins needed this specialty formula, expensive formul. I told my pediatrician, "I don't know if I can afford it." It was like, $50 a can or something. And my husband was a student at the time, so it was just me, big time, brand new entrepreneur, mom of twins. I got this, and I did not have it. And so the pediatrician said, "Well, you can use this program called WIC which is for low-income mothers. It provides food and other things to make sure that mom and baby are well-nourished." I went and got them. And I didn't tell anybody because I felt such shame. I just felt like I was supposed to be this person helping other people with their savings, and I was supposed to be this motivating person. And I felt so ashamed that I couldn't buy this formula. And what made it worse is that I get the check. I've got these two babies with me in the grocery store, and I find the formula, do the whole thing, and the checkout lady is looking at the check, "What is this? I'm so nervous. I'm already feeling such shame. Got the two babies. I'm like, "It's a WIC check. You use it, and then I take the formula." She's like, "We've never seen one of these before. No one uses these at this store, and I don't know what to do." And so she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." And in that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids get so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store. So I start crying. The kids start crying. The manager comes over. We all made it to the car. All of us cried the whole way home, babies, me. And I think that was probably the lowest point for me, and my kids just turned seven. So it took me six or seven years to actually share that with the public.

Catherine’s Money Lesson-

I think the biggest lesson is even in those bleakest kind of bottom moments, don't give up. There can always be a comeback story. I could've asked for help. I have a whole chapter on the importance of vulnerability and telling people when you need help and even being vulnerable and sharing your successes with people too. But I am stubborn and super independent. I really wanted to make it on my own, wanted the business to work. And it just felt like such a failure for me, but I could have easily asked for help from a family member, from somebody, but I didn't. And I wanted to make myself suffer as if it was my fault, even though I had done everything right. So the experience really fueled me. I was like, "I don't want to do this again. I don't want to go through this again." So I really doubled down on my business after that. And by the time my kids were three, I was earning six figures for my business, and things got better from there. But it was really that moment that was like, "Look, we can't mess around with this business. Girl, you got sit down. You got to get going on this because we can't be in this checkout line again like this."

Buy your copy of Mom’s Got Money now!

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• Website- www.catherinealford.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell :

I was watching this interview the other day with Nick Jonas. He was promoting his upcoming album and telling everyone about how he learned to make these cool designs in his homemade cappuccinos. And by the way, based on the picture that they showed, he's actually pretty good at it.

Bobbi Rebell :

And then he broke character. You could just see the change in his body language and his voice as he got honest. Nick Jonas says he is just so bored, and you know what? I believe him. I am too. I don't know. How about you? I would love to come in here and say that I have some magical solution. Sorry, but at least I can try to get all of us to break down our walls a little bit like Nick and maybe have a little laugh at everything?

Bobbi Rebell :

We take being a grownup really seriously, and that's for all good reasons, but we also need a break. And we need to give our friends and family a break.

Bobbi Rebell :

Grownup Gear is perfect for that. Who doesn't need a pillow that says, "You had me a debt free" with an adorable pig wearing shades. And let's be honest. A sweatshirt reading, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either" is really what we're all thinking.

Bobbi Rebell :

You can see more designs at grownupgear.com or on my website, bobbirebell.com. The merch makes great gifts for everything from graduations, engagements, bachelor and bachelorette parties, bridal showers, Mother's Day, Father's Day, and the most important holiday of all, today because we're all still here living our lives the best we can in spite of all the things.

Bobbi Rebell :

Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes, and thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Catherine Alford :

So she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." In that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids gets so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store.

Catherine Alford :

I start crying. The kids start crying. All of us cried the whole way home.

Bobbi Rebell :

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, but you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hello, my grownup friends. The title of this episode is Public Money Shame at the Grocery Store.

Bobbi Rebell :

Now at first glance, you might think I was talking about guest, Mom's Got Money author, Catherine Alford. But the title doesn't refer to Catherine. It's actually meant to point to the dad who judged her, standing behind her at the grocery store, knowing nothing about her or her situation. Shame on him because Katherine's newborn twins were preemies. She needed a special formula that was crazy expensive. And so, yes, she needed help. And she had the humility and frankly, the common sense as someone responsible for two tiny humans to get the babies the help they needed, even if it meant asking for help.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'll leave it to Catherine to share more in our interview, and I'll be back with some very strong feelings about this other person later.

Bobbi Rebell :

But first, a quick check-in. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Financial Grownup. We share stories from accomplished financial grownups and the lessons from them, and then we wrap things up with the money tip we can all put to work to live a richer life.

Bobbi Rebell :

When I met Catherine for the first time in 2016, my book had just come out, and she asked me for advice because she had an idea for a book. Her twins were, I would guess, about two years old, and now they're seven. And she has published that book. I'm so truly and deeply proud of this woman, having witnessed just a fraction of what she's experienced and is now sharing.

Bobbi Rebell :

And for the non-moms out there, invest the time to listen to this story because as I said a few moments ago, the story isn't so much about Catherine. It's about all of us, including that dad who couldn't hit pause for just a moment to see the human being right in front of him and the money struggles that we choose not to see.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'm so grateful Catherine shared her story. Here is Mom's Got Money author, Catherine.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hello, Catherine Alford, my friend. You are a Financial Grownup. Welcome.

Catherine Alford :

Thanks for having me, Bobbi. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell :

I am excited to share more about your new book, Mom's Got Money: A Millennial Mom's Guide to Managing Money like a Boss. Congrats on the book.

Catherine Alford :

Thank you so much. Been a long time coming, as you know.

Bobbi Rebell :

I do know. And I want to first do your money story. We'll get back to more about the book, but the money story I've asked you to talk about is from the book. And you're going to elaborate a little bit on it here, but I hope people will go back and read the full story in the book.

Bobbi Rebell :

It's a topic that is really uncomfortable. Very few people want to talk about, but we should because, I'm just going to guess, it's probably more common in different ways than any of us want to admit in public to the world, and you were very brave to do so.

Bobbi Rebell :

Tell us your money story, Catherine.

Catherine Alford :

Sure. Well, before I became self-employed, before I gave birth to twins in 2014, I had chronicled my whole plan to become self-employed, super motivating. I saved this $10,000 baby fund. I saved all this money because I knew we'd have to move shortly after having the kids. I kept showing everyone the side hustles of this, the building up, so I was very organized and prepared which is sort of my way with money.

Catherine Alford :

But after I had the twins, after we moved, all of those things, having preemie twins, having some health problems with them, it pretty much drained everything I had saved and announced to thousands of people in the world on my blog that I had saved. And the twins needed this specialty formula, expensive formula reflux, blah, blah, blah.

Catherine Alford :

I told my pediatrician, "I don't know if I can afford it." It was like, I don't know, $50 a can or something. And my husband was a student at the time, so it was just me, big time, brand new entrepreneur, mom of twins. I got this, and I did not have it.

Catherine Alford :

And so the pediatrician said, "Well, you can use this program called WIC which is for low-income mothers. It provides food and other things to make sure that mom and baby are well-nourished." I went and got them. And I didn't tell anybody because I felt such shame. I just felt like I was supposed to be this person helping other people with their savings, and I was supposed to be this motivating person. And I felt so ashamed that I couldn't buy this formula.

Catherine Alford :

And what made it worse is that I get the check. I've got these two babies with me in the grocery store, and I find the formula, do the whole thing, and the checkout lady is looking at the check, "What is this? I'm so nervous. I'm already feeling such shame. Got the two babies. I'm like, "It's a WIC check. You use it, and then I take the formula." She's like, "We've never seen one of these before. No one uses these at this store, and I don't know what to do."

Catherine Alford :

And so she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." And in that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids get so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store.

Catherine Alford :

So I start crying. The kids start crying. The manager comes over. We all made it to the car. All of us cried the whole way home, babies, me. And I think that was probably the lowest point for me, and my kids just turned seven. So it took me six or seven years to actually share that with the public.

Catherine Alford :

But that one made it in the book. It's still the one story in the whole book that gets me every time. I go right back there to the intercom every time I read that.

Bobbi Rebell :

What's the lesson from that? I mean, there are so many. There are so many lessons, I don't know where to begin. For you, for our listeners, what is the biggest lesson, I guess?

Catherine Alford :

I think the biggest lesson is even in those bleakest kind of bottom moments, don't give up. There can always be a comeback story. I mean, I could've asked for help. I mean, I have a whole chapter on the importance of vulnerability and telling people when you need help and even telling... being vulnerable and sharing your successes with people too.

Catherine Alford :

But I am stubborn, super independent. I really wanted to make it on my own, wanted the business to work. And it just felt like such a failure for me, but I could have easily asked for help from a family member, from somebody, but I didn't. And I wanted to make myself suffer as if it was my fault, even though I had done everything right.

Catherine Alford :

So the experience really fueled me. I was like, "I don't want to do this again. I don't want to go through this again." So I really doubled down on my business after that. And by the time my kids were three, I was earning six figures for my business, and things got better from there. But it was really that moment that was like, "Look, we can't mess around with this business. Girl, you got sit down. You got to get going on this because we can't be in this checkout line again like this."

Bobbi Rebell :

How did it affect your view of people that you now see that need help?

Catherine Alford :

So much compassion, and I have so much empathy. You just... you never really know what someone is going through. And I'm actually grateful for the experience because I think I have a lot more compassion.

Catherine Alford :

I actually... I tried to buy two cans of formula for a mom behind me in line. I like really want to do this now. It was funny because I was finishing checking out, and the mom behind me had two cans of formula. I'm like, "I'll take her formula too." And she said, "Oh no, I'm buying it with WIC. Don't worry about it." And I was like, "I know about that. I used that with my twins." And I always try to help moms when I see formula on their checkout line instead of leave like the dad behind me.

Catherine Alford :

So I think even really successful people have these down moments, especially in our industry and the kind of jobs we do. We don't really like to talk about the bad stuff. Educators about personal finance talk about all the good stuff. All you see is the million dollar business. Even when you've had a lot of good runs, you can still have the bad moment and come back from it.

Bobbi Rebell :

And we learned a lot about that in the pandemic. Many people just lost clients overnight, or the clients hit pause, and there was so much uncertainty in what we do and in what so many people do. Thank you for sharing that.

Bobbi Rebell :

Let's move on to your money tip because this has to do with valuing yourself, and it particularly applies to moms in the context of your book, but it really could apply to so many people that do things that aren't necessarily valued for what they should be.

Bobbi Rebell :

What is your money tip?

Catherine Alford :

Well, this one is for all the mamas out there. I really like to encourage moms to know their approximate hourly rate. As moms, we feel so guilty. All of us know we need help. We need Mary Poppins. We [inaudible 00:12:02] fairy godmother. We all need so much help. But we resist. We're like, "We don't really need the housekeeper. Do we really need a babysitter for that thing? I could just take the kids to my hair appointment."

Catherine Alford :

It's like, "No, you need to know your hourly rate so that you can eliminate that guilt about outsourcing." As long as you make more per hour than what you're paying the person helping you, then there should be no guilt. If you're a stay-at-home mom, you could maybe do a little side hustle or something to help you out, or if you're a working mom, make sure you calculate that rate, and that way you, don't have any guilt.

Bobbi Rebell :

Fun fact, LinkedIn recently added Stay-at-Home Mom as a job category.

Catherine Alford :

I saw that. That's cool.

Bobbi Rebell :

Why so long?

Bobbi Rebell :

Anyway, I want to talk about your book, Mom's Got Money: A Millennial Mom's Guide to Managing Money Like a Boss, and I'm going to put you on the spot. In the book, you talk about cringe-worthy purchases when you advise moms to go and look at things that are maybe not necessarily needed in terms of the things that they spend money on.

Bobbi Rebell :

What is your most cringe-worthy purchase, Catherine Alford?

Catherine Alford :

I remember when I first started running ads from Facebook for my business really early on in my business, I pretty much did not have the money to spend, or it was most of what I had earned that month. And I remember spending almost $1,000 on Facebook Ads to run webinars [inaudible 00:13:22] and nothing converted and nothing sold. It was in two days, the money just disappeared like I was gambling with it.

Catherine Alford :

Now, 10 years later, I know a lot more about Facebook Ads, but just so many choices in business like that. You have to kind of try things. But that was a painful one.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right, one more thing. One thing I love in the book is that you talk about the fact that you would love negotiating, and you've taught your children too. What is your number one tip for negotiating successfully?

Catherine Alford :

My number one tip is to be nice. I think people think negotiating is all about being really aggressive and making sure you get your words in, and you make sure you say the number first. I am just so nice when negotiating, and I'm really complimentary about how much I really want to work with the person, how awesome they are. But I have to have a certain number, and it's such a bummer just because I have all these time constraints, it really has to be this number to make it work. So I am the nicest negotiator.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right. Tell us where people can find out more about you and the book.

Catherine Alford :

You could find out more about me at catherinealford.com. I'm always on the 'gram under @catherinecalford. And on my website, my readers can go to the homepage, and they can download a Mom's Got Money workbook which has a ton of stuff from the book and a lot of great things to think about and for moms to sort of jumpstart their money journey.

Bobbi Rebell :

Perfect. Thank you so much. This has been wonderful, so much great advice, and I hope everyone picks up the book.

Catherine Alford :

Thanks for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell :

Here we go, my friends. Financial Grownup Tip Number One: Do as Catherine now says, not as she did. Ask for help from people who love you. Catherine didn't take her own advice to ask for help from the people that care about her, her closest friends and family. As she said in our interview, she has a whole chapter on vulnerability. But Catherine, like many of us, wanted to make it on her own and felt that asking for help, even in these unforeseen and very extreme circumstances, would have been perceived as a failure. She was afraid of letting people down. She now knows so much better.

Bobbi Rebell :

I get it. I bet you do too. It's a really hard thing to ask for help from people that are cheering you on because they think you've got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Well, try to at least have the discussion. It's okay to say that things have changed. You might feel so much relief, just not hiding your secret.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup Tip Number Two, and this is a big one: Do not presume you have any idea what is going on with the person ahead of you in a grocery line who may be using coupons, government assistance, whatever. And don't presume you won't be in a financially vulnerable position in the future. We should all know better after the past year.

Bobbi Rebell :

I also want to share a fun moment that we experienced, we shared, I should say, over social media Catherine and I had soon after we recorded this interview. Her books arrived, and she shared the big unboxing with her kids on her Instagram account. It made me remember my own unboxing moment from 2016 with my now 13-year-old, and guess what? I found the video, and I was able to share it. It was great.

Bobbi Rebell :

The best part of writing a book or any big achievement, frankly, is seeing people you love, and especially your kids, light up with pride. Please think about that the next time you feel guilty working towards a goal or having to spend more time than you would like away from your kids and loved ones.

Bobbi Rebell :

On that note, a couple of big announcements. April is Financial Literacy Month, and thanks to the generosity of our Financial Grownup guests who have new books out and their publishers, I am giving out books to all of you to celebrate. DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and just write, "I'd love a book by a Financial Grownup," and we'll send you one.

Bobbi Rebell :

Next, I want to spend more time getting to know you. Please join me and my Financial Grownup money experts on our weekly Clubhouse chats. They happen Friday at 1:00 PM Eastern in the Money Tips for Grownups Club. DM me on Instagram if you need invitation for Clubhouse or any help in figuring out how to get there. I am @bobbirebell1.

Bobbi Rebell :

And finally, Mother's Day is coming up. I have some great gift options at grownupgear.com. I hope you take a moment to check it out. The podcast is free to you, but the revenue from Grownup Gear helps to support and pay for the podcast, so thank you for your support.

Bobbi Rebell :

Go pick up a copy of Mom's Got Money for yourself or for the moms in your life, and big thanks to Catherine Alford for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell :

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Saven is our talent coordinator and content creator, so that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell :

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell :

While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup.

Bobbi Rebell :

Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes.

Bobbi Rebell :

Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Former pre-school teacher Tiffany Aliche created a mini-“boss” entrepreneur when her savvy stepdaughter started asking questions about money- and put her on an early path to being a financial grownup. Plus we preview Tiffany’s latest book, Get Good with Money. 10 Steps to Financial Wholeness. 

Tiffany’s Money Story

Every time we would go out shopping, My husband would buy my step-daughter a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him thatt his is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup. I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words." She would get birthday money or Christmas money. I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me." What he realized, because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving, she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that. She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time. I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn. Now, when she was buying ( her favorite place is Staples) she was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were. And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy. She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

Tiffany’s Money Lesson

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently. And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Tiffany’s Everyday Money Tip

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered. And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

#2 - Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Buy Tiffany’s book, GET GOOD WITH MONEY today!

Follow Tiffany!

• Instagram - @thebudgetnista

• Twitter- @thebudgetnista

• LinkedIn- Tiffany Aliche

• Website- thebudgetnista.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up-for-work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy t-shirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded-but-still-super-comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick-me-ups to, to let them know it's all good. And that includes you.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently, like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either," or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost-grownup friend.

Bobbi Rebell:

Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

When I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others, so she had... because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, grownups, how many of you had parents who had you open up their paychecks? Definitely not me. But our financial grownup this week, Tiffany Aliche, known as The Budgetnista, didn't just do that; she talked to her bonus daughter about all the money stuff. Not just the paychecks that she was allowing her to open, as early as age seven; she talked to her about the taxes, the business deductions, the negotiations, the side hustles, the net profit and so much more. These ladies do business plans in their sleep.

Bobbi Rebell:

Welcome everyone to the Financial Grownup podcast. So, glad you guys are here. We talk with high-achieving grownups about money stories that inspired their lives and the lessons from them. And this week's financial grownup, Tiffany Aliche, is truly next-level. I joke with her that while most books these days are Money 101, hers, Get Good With Money, is Money 201 because she holds her readers to a higher standard and goes into the real grownup stuff. Not surprising, given her background in teaching preschool, where she sets kids as young as three up for success. You'll hear what she has to say about what kids that age should hear, when they say, "Buy me... " She pulls no punches.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany has a thriving business, teaching money skills to thousands of Dream Catchers and co-hosts the Brown Ambition podcast with Mandi Woodruff. But as you will hear, this mega entrepreneur, wife and mother's biggest accolades may in fact come from the lessons she is teaching her step-daughter. Here is The Budgetnista, Tiffany Aliche.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you so much, Bobbi with an "I".

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes. And congratulations on your book. I'm going to hold it up here, even though no one can see it, just because I feel good holding it up because I love the cover. Your book is Get Good with Money: Ten Simple Steps to Become Financially Whole. We're going to talk about it more later in the podcast, but give us just high-level what it's about.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's about financial wholeness, which is when these 10 core aspects of your financial life grow together and meld together to create the strongest financial foundation possible so you can build any financial house you want on top of it.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I love, when you read the book, you go along and you get percentages, so you feel like you're building to get to that 100%, which is great. Like I said, we're going to circle back to the book, but first I want to ask you your money story. And it has to do with your bonus baby, your daughter, your 14-year-old step-daughter. She was seven when you came into her life. And you had some interesting discussions about money. Tell us how your money conversations began and how they've evolved.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, they began because I just noticed that her father, every time we would go out shopping, food-shopping or whatever, she would always get a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him, "This is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup." So, I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words."

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would get birthday money or Christmas money. And so, I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me."

Tiffany Aliche :

What he realized... because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving... she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that."

Tiffany Aliche :

She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time.

Tiffany Aliche :

I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn like, "Oh... "

Tiffany Aliche :

So, now, when she was buying... her favorite place is Staples. She was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were.

Tiffany Aliche :

And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy.

Tiffany Aliche :

She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you also were very brave in that you were transparent with your money coming in and the costs associated with running a business. Tell us a little bit about why you did that because many parents hold back. We all hold back secret... I don't know if "secrets" is the right word, but we're not with our money, certainly to young people. And that was an interesting decision.

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah. So, I used to allow her... when I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Tiffany Aliche :

And I remember, I think she was in fifth or sixth grade and she had to interview someone she admired. And she chose me because she wanted to be an entrepreneur. She wasn't sure what she wanted to be. I mean, she's sold lip gloss. She's made friendship bracelets. She's done a bunch of different... now, she's got a YouTube channel. Now, she's teaching adults how to use TikTok. It's like she's got a bunch of different businesses going.

Tiffany Aliche :

But I remember when I realized she was really getting it, because she was still young then, maybe eight or nine. And I explained to her how taxes worked. She heard me talking to her father about taxes. She asked me what they were. And I told her, "Similar to sales tax, taxes are when you pay some of the money that you earn to the government so they can use it to make our country better."

Tiffany Aliche :

And I said, "But when you're an entrepreneur, taxes work differently. When I was a teacher," I told her, "Before I even get my paycheck, the government takes their taxes." And she was like, "That's unfair." I'm like, "Many would say so." But I said, "But as an entrepreneur, when you see those paychecks, Supergirl, I get all my money. Then I can use that money to grow and maintain the business. And what's left over, I pay taxes on. That's why you see me save the receipts. I save the receipts so I can show the government, 'Hey, I spent money to run my business.'" She had a bag one day and it was 15 different receipts. And I'm like, "Well, what are these from?" She's like, "These are the receipts so you give to the government so you could show them that you spend money on the business." And I was like, "Well, they have to be receipts for my business." But the fact that at eight or nine that she was thinking like that was just really transformative.

Tiffany Aliche :

I was a school teacher before I started The Budgetnista. I've seen firsthand that a lot of parents think that it's not age-appropriate to teach financial education to kids. It's inappropriate not to. There are ways to do it in a way that's appropriate as young as three because typically by three or four or five, kids start to saying, "Mommy, Daddy, Auntie, Uncle, can you buy me... " not just, "Can I have... " So, once you hear that word "buy", they've already made the connection between stuff and money. You want to make sure it's the right connection.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson from your money story?

Tiffany Aliche :

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently.

Tiffany Aliche :

And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Bobbi Rebell:

So brilliant. You brought with you an everyday money tip that has to do with paper towels?

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tell us. Tell us. This is great.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered.

Tiffany Aliche :

And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"

Tiffany Aliche :

And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

Bobbi Rebell:

Skip the drama. Find the solution.

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's talk about this book because it is... this is a substantial book. Again, it's called Get Good with Money. One of my favorite things is you say something that has become somewhat controversial. In this age, where we are so focused on automating things... and some things should be automated, absolutely. We should automate our savings and things like that. But just because something, like certain apps, can automate investing doesn't mean you don't need the human touch. You really advocate for having a human involved. Tell us more about the belief and why we need to be more cognizant of it.

Tiffany Aliche :

No, absolutely. Because there's nuance with human beings that you don't get from just automating everything. And also too, it's really from people that you learn. So, if everything is automated and you automate your investments, that's great, but you don't really learn why something works. That's why we have teachers because it's through these teachers that you get to really learn why something works and how it works.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's critically important, depending on where you are in life, that you have actual people who have been there, done that to lean into, whether it's a CFP, whether it's an accountant. You may or may not need one. You might need an insurance agent. You might need an attorney. It all depends. But at the very least, I tell people to get themselves an accountability partner, someone that you can travel the financial journey with. It might be your work mom, it might be your sister, your cousin, but someone that you can link with that you can kind of share the struggles, that you can get accountability and encouragement from and someone who can help to normalize the process. I think human beings work best in community. And it's not something that goes away just because we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:

I read so many books, Tiffany. And many of them are very good, but they're very much Money 101. This is, I feel, more Money 201. You're a former teacher. Well, you're really still a teacher, let's be honest. You hold people to a higher standard. You go into some much more sophisticated topics, but in an accessible way. Tell us about that decision to be a little bit more challenging and to be a little more ambitious with this book.

Tiffany Aliche :

Well, as a teacher, Bobbi, one of the things that we really learn is something called differentiated learning, that people learn differently. So, literally, when I taught, I had kids ages just turned three to turned five. So, that's like high school and college in the same classroom. So, I really had to learn how do I teach something in a way that doesn't offend the five-year-olds and they don't get bored and start tearing up the classroom, or it's not too heavy for the three-year-olds so they don't start tearing up the classroom. And so, I really mastered how do I speak to different ranges of folks.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, the first five steps in financial wholeness, Get Good with Money are really the foundational: budgeting, debt, credit, savings, learn to earn. But the next five really are a deeper dive. So, that's how I address that. I was like, "Okay, if you have that great super foundation, then here's where you're going to learn how to invest for retirement and wealth. Here's where you're going to learn how to make sure you get good with insurance, your net worth, getting your money team and estate planning." And so, I spoke to both of those levels by including both of them in the book. But I wanted to make sure that even if you're like, "You know what? I've got the super foundation," I really did deeper dives so you could learn something new, even if you were pretty good there. Or if you were ready to go to the next level and it was new to you, I really explained it in such a way that even if investing was new to you, that you could really learn.

Bobbi Rebell:

You did a great job. Where can people learn more about you and be in touch?

Tiffany Aliche :

So, you can learn more about me... I'm The Budgetnista on all social media platforms. And you can keep in touch and get the book at getgoodwithmoney.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one. As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup tip number two. Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends. April is Financial Literacy Month and I'm giving away a ton of incredible money books, including Tiffany's. Want one? All you have to do is DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and just say, "I'd love a book from a financial grownup." The authors that are on this podcast and their publishers are incredibly generous. And I can't wait to send out lots and lots of books.

Bobbi Rebell:

And by the way, I was so honored to have the Financial Grownup podcast on Real Simple's list of the top 10 best finance podcasts for beginners, investors and everyone, along with Tiffany and Mandi's Brown Ambition podcast and many more really fantastic shows. I'll share the article in the show notes, which you can see on my website, bobbirebell.com. And I hope you'll make the time to check out some of the other great money podcasts on the list.

Bobbi Rebell:

Big thanks to Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, for teaching us all how to be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell. But the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator, so, yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell:

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear Shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

Stay in touch on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter at @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

The best-selling author reveals what happened when her dad opened her mail and saw her credit card debt, and the surprising result when she and her husband cut their budget by 90 percent. Plus a preview of her new book: Your Turn: How to be an Adult. 

Julie’s Money Lesson:

Okay, the recliner. I'm starting to make a lot of money. I'm making enough that my husband is like, "How would you feel about me being a full-time artist?" And I was like, “Yes!”. I was supporting a family of four. My husband became a full-time artist and we started spending money. We're buying the nicer table. We're buying the nicer artwork. We're buying the nicer recliner. We realized that our set point of what we could just spend money on, in terms of discretionary spending, had just increased as our salary increased. We're looking around like we're making far more money than we ever had, but we're not saving a darn thing. What is up? And we realized that set point was just out of control. We were just dropping $1,000 without thinking about it. I read up, I talked to people and I learned this rule of if you want to save, you want to change your habits, you don't just try to start saving 5% or 10% if you've been saving nothing, you need to start saving for yourself first. You need to pay yourself first and decide what your savings goals are and set that to the side and then pay the rest of your bills. And that meant that our discretionary spending, we were going to cut by 95% or by 90%. If we were spending $1,000 on a recliner, when we had to buy the second recliner, it was going to be $100. And I was bummed because the second recliner was for me and my husband had the fancy recliner. We went to the cheaper furniture store and sat in recliners. And we had these down, sad faces, like “poor us” right? And I sound so privileged talking about this. I realize some people are like, "$100 is a lot of money." I'm just saying for me, it was a big cut. And then we found this recliner for $100 that is so comfortable. It is like the recliner of choice. You come to our house, everyone gravitates to it. It looks comfortable and it is comfortable. It's the kind of thing when you push the buttons and it starts to leans back, you're like, "Ah". It feels like a spa. And it's the cheapest thing in the whole downstairs of our house. Cut spending on something by 90% and see if you noticed.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - Julie jokes about how retirement is over romanticized and I couldn't agree more. Work is not just a path to retirement. We put in about a third of our 24 hour day, and for many of us, a lot more than those eight hours. If you hate what you're doing so much, that you are laser focused on retirement, consider refocusing that energy on enjoying your day to day more. If there's anything we've learned during the pandemic, it's that we should not assume things need to stay the same. Hit pause, give yourself some grownup tough love and fix it.

#2 - Let's get better about asking our friends and colleagues of different backgrounds and races about their experiences with money. Even though Julie clearly and candidly talks about how being a person of color impacted her money decisions in the book, as a white person I wasn't sure about asking Julie about it. I'm really glad I did. I'm not sure why I was so hesitant. And I hope we can all make time to both listen and share with each other as well. And in case you're wondering, as a white person in this country, it never even occurred to me that I needed to use a credit card to prove I belonged in a store. We need to be talking about this.

Get your copy of YOUR TURN: How to Be an Adult today!

Follow Julie!

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• Website- www.julielythcotthaims.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

It is officially spring. And that means graduation season is on. We here at The Financial Grownup Podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and the seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweaters all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup Gear also makes great gifts for Mother's Day, Father's Day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette, parties birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code graduation for a 15% discount. And thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and we truly appreciate your support.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

They handed me a check for the full amount, $3,900 plus change, and I felt so shamed and so just embarrassed. Here I am highly educated, a fancy degree from a fancy college and I'd managed to get so far in the hole. And I just cried. I just cried. Tears just rolled down my face.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a Financial Grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this. Hello, my grownup friends. It is April. I am so happy it's April. I don't know about you, but I just, I needed the better weather. Speaking to you from my home in New York City, where we've had a very brutal winter. I was fortunate. I got to go to Florida for a little bit, but we've been home for a while and this better weather could not come at a better time.

Bobbi Rebell:

And also, as some of you get to see, it's very much a work in progress, you see it on my Instagram, but I do get to go out and play golf, which is a really great way to spend time. Anyway, let's talk about this week's Financial Grownup. The adjective that I am going to use to describe her, delightful, Julie Lythcott-Haims is out with a new book, Your Turn: How to be an Adult. It is the much anticipated follow-up to her previous book, How to Raise an Adult, and not to be forgotten in between those, Real American: A Memoir, and a very personal book, which continues to grow in relevance.

Bobbi Rebell:

Julie is a former Stanford Dean. She left that position to pursue her passion, the career she'd always dreamed about, writing. You know what? It's working out okay. Julie's new book, Your Turn: How to be an Adult, is about more than just being a Financial Grownup, though she does have a chapter which is pretty much on the topic. Chapter eight, check it out. The book is about being a full on adult, but for the purposes of this podcast, she was a good sport and gets candid about her money blunders and victories. Here is Julie Lythcott-Haims. Julie Lythcott-Haims, you are a Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Bobbi, no one's ever said that to me before. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

You are very much a Financial Grownup. You're the author of Your Turn: How to be an Adult. Welcome.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I think I'm going to learn something.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm going to ask you to share a money story from the book, which has to do with credit card debt, but there's a really interesting angle that has to do with how you relate to your family, which is so appropriate when we talk about Financial Grownups.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. Thanks for pointing to something that's deeply personal. No, of course. I shared it in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's in the book, Julie.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I know. I'm trying to be vulnerable with my readers so that they can feel more safe and seen. Okay, picture me. I now 53, but in the story, I was maybe 22. I had amassed a lot of credit card debt in college. I was at Stanford University. The student union was basically lined with the desks of fakes who were there to offer me a credit card application. And I filled out maybe two of them. I had two credit cards. I would use my credit cards at the local shopping center. I would use them for groceries. I would use them for dinners and lunches out and coffee. I was just, I was spending money without having really learned the habits of how you keep track of your expenses and the whole interest part with credit cards. Long and short, I had accumulated about $3,900 in debt.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

This would be around 1990, 1991. Maybe double that, maybe like $6,000, $7,000 in today's dollars. I had no way to pay it off. My first job I'd earned $20,000 a year. It's hard to pay down a debt of $3,000 when you're only earning $20,000 gross. And I was headed off to law school and was living with my parents over the summer before law school started. And so my mail, including my bills, was being forwarded to my parents' address. Well, unbeknownst to me, after I had opened the latest credit card bill showing just how much I owed, my parents had read it as well.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

One night they just solemnly came toward me and said, "You're about to go start grad school and you're getting married. And we want you to start life with Dan", my boyfriend and soon to be husband, "with a financial clean slate. So here's a check." They handed me a check for the full amount, $3,900 plus change. And I felt so shamed. And so just embarrassed. Here I am highly educated, a fancy degree from a fancy college, and I'd managed to get so far in the hole and I just cried. I just cried. Tears just rolled down my face. They weren't judgmental. They weren't scolding me. They were offering me this gift.

Bobbi Rebell:

There's also another lesson for our listeners about relationships and how you communicate with your family.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. That really pushes the button, right? I think I was so ashamed that I had let them down by being this child of theirs who had been so irresponsible. And I think the lesson is had I only reached out sooner. I just kept digging the hole deeper and deeper by paying the minimum on my credit cards. If I had reached out to my parents six months earlier, or a year before, or two years before, I would probably never have gotten into such bad debt to start with.

Bobbi Rebell:

We're going to talk for your everyday money lesson about the fact that you guys like to splurge. But then there was sort of an aha moment. Tell us about the recliner.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Okay, the recliner. I'm starting to make a lot of money. I'm making enough that my husband, who's a designer, a product designer, user experience designer, is like, "How would you feel about me being a full-time artist?" And I was like, yes. Okay, that's how capable I was of supporting a family of four. My husband became a full-time artist and we started spending money. We're buying the nicer table. We're buying the nicer artwork. We're buying the nicer recliner.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

We realized that our set point of what we could just spend money on, in terms of discretionary spending, had just increased as our salary increased. We're looking around like we're making far more money than we ever had, but we're not saving a darn thing. What is up? And we realized that set point was just out of control. We were just dropping $1,000 without thinking about it. I read up, I talked to people and I learned this rule of if you want to save, you want to change your habits, you don't just try to start saving 5% or 10% if you've been saving nothing, you need to start saving for yourself first.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

You need to pay yourself first and decide what your savings goals are and set that to the side and then pay the rest of your bills. And that meant that our discretionary spending, we were going to cut by 95% or by 90%. If we were spending $1,000 on a recliner, when we had to buy the second recliner, it was going to be $100. And I was bummed because the second recliner was for me and my husband had the fancy recliner. We went to the cheaper furniture store and sat in recliners. And we had these down, sad faces, like poor us, we can only, right? And I sound so privileged talking about this. I realize some people are like,"$100 is a lot of money."

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I'm just saying for me, it was a big cut. And then we found this recliner for $100 that is so comfortable. It is like the recliner of choice. You come to our house, everyone gravitates to it. It looks comfortable and it is comfortable. It's the kind of thing when you push the buttons and it starts to leans back, you're like, "Ah". It feels like a spa. And it's the cheapest thing in the whole downstairs of our house.

Bobbi Rebell:

But it's good. It's working for you and you saved 90%.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

Nobody misses not spending the money.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

That's right.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's so great. And yeah, the tip is basically cuts something by 90% and see if you noticed.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Right. That's right.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That's a good one.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

100%. Yep.

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's talk more about this book. I devoured it. I have to say it's a robust book. This is a book that took a lot of research. I really encourage people, not only to read it, but to settle in with it because it really is worth your time. I picked out a few of the things that I'd like you to elaborate on within the book. And the first one kind of tag team to what we just talked about because there's a lot of talk about cutting your expenses so that you can retire early. That's one of the motivations for taking drastic action when it comes to spending. But you talk about the fact that retiring early is really over romanticized.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

The retiring early rhetoric tends to be, "My job sucks. I can't wait to retire. I'm just going to slog away working in this dungeon so that I can at 55 or 57 or 60, whatever, I can kick back and relax and travel." If that's the choice you're making, more power to you. But in the book, I'm trying to expand people's horizons and get folks to think maybe work doesn't have to feel so awful, such that all you want to do is leave work. Maybe you can lead a career life, a job life, a professional life that is intrinsically rewarding. It feels good. You're tapping into your talents, your strengths, your loves, you're growing. You're making enough money to pay your bills.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

And you're like, "Hey, I'm not eager to retire. I enjoy what I'm doing." And then to put a fine point on it, Bobbi, oftentimes when people retire, that is they cease doing that which they have always done, that which has been a huge part of their identity, they begin to wither psychologically. They begin to wither physically. They begin to wither in terms of their personal connections, because they're not making things with their hands, they're not doing as much with their brain and they're not seeing human beings as much. Retirement can often lead to a downward spiral. If one is not sort of healthy, hail and active in one's retirement, it can really be the beginning of the end.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I'm here to say, love the work you do, do the work you love, make sure it pays your bills and do it for as long as you can and build in the travel and the enjoyment and the fishing and all of that along the way, rather than waiting to live that life you imagined only after you've retired from some terrible job.

Bobbi Rebell:

Such a good reminder. Another thing that really stood out in the book that I went, oh, that I don't think about enough, when you talked about the spending, and this ties into your spending on the credit cards when you were younger especially, you talk about the fact that racial stereotypes played into your spending decisions. Tell us more.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Well, what listeners need to know is I'm a black and biracial woman, very light skin. But nevertheless, I think to the world, unambiguously of color. And most people figure out that I'm black. I, as a young person, had learned to ... I had internalized the hate that I had experienced along the way. Microaggressions, outright racism, these things were things I experienced in childhood. By the time I get to college and I'm at an elite college, I'm at Stanford University in Silicon Valley and I have these credit cards. I am using the credit cards when I'm in a store, in a fancy store, at the Stanford Shopping Center or in a nice restaurant as a way to demonstrate, I have credit, I am capable. You do not have to associate me with that stereotypical black person you think can't afford to purchase your goods, your food, because I have this credit card.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I was really deep in my internalized oppression that I was trying to not be the stereotypical black person. I was trying to be the model Negro, if you will, I'm using terms of stereotype. I have long since grown out of that behavior, but I will say, yeah, the credit card was like an appendage that was proving my ability or my worthiness or my right to be in these white environments. I overspent as a result, I'd be with friends at dinner and say like, you know what? I'll take care of the bill. And I'd plunk down my gold. How did I have a gold American Express card so young? But I did. They knew who they were preying on. It worked, right? I was like, I'll take care of the bill. And it was my way of showing, not just the restaurant, but my friends, I have money, even though I didn't necessarily have the money in the bank to pay that bill.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's a tough situation that society puts people in that mindset.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

We could talk about this a lot more, but this is a short podcast and I want to talk about one final theme. And that is that you really humanize a lot of our experiences with money by bringing stories of other people into the book. I wanted to ask you to share that a little bit.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. Thank you so much. The book is part memoir, me telling my lived experience, as you've just asked me about, me with some self-help tips, practical advice, but then I've got the stories of these other people in every chapter, a really diverse set of people from all walks of life in order to say to all readers, I'm trying to envision all of you as I write this. And the two stories in the money chapter are Wesley, who grew up working poor, put himself through community college, put himself into position of getting to drive for UPS and has been with UPS now for 35 years and will retire with a full pension from UPS.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

It hearkens back to days of yore, when you'd work for one employer all your life, and they were very loyal to you and you were loyal to them and unions were strong and that's not really the way much of the working world works these days, but there are plenty of industries that still do offer pensions, like the package driving industry, like UPS and police and law enforcement more broadly and schools. People who work for the government tend to have a pension. And this is a way to the middle class. Wesley has provided a life for himself, his wife and his son that is just many steps above what he grew up with financially. I wanted that story in there. I think it's a really important story about the American dream and that in many ways it is alive and well today.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

The other story is Denae, who's a dancer, got an undergraduate degree and a master's in dance. She's a professional dancer in New York City. She's done some amazing gigs, but dancing gigs come and they go. And when they go, she doesn't have income unless she supplements that with other work, which she does. Nevertheless, she had racked up with interest $50.000 in student loan debt, living in the most expensive city in America, New York, and or one of the most expensive, and she set herself a goal to get out of that credit card debt.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

She said, "I'm going to be debt three and three years." And she did it by being extremely frugal about her food, extremely thoughtful and mindful about her choices, about how she went places, what kinds of places she rented. She would even say when she was working a temp job in between dancing gigs, somebody took her food out of the fridge and started eating it. And she put a note on the refrigerators, "Hey, please don't eat my food. I'm paying down my student loans." And if that wasn't crystal clear, because she didn't know who did it, but she just knew I have to send this message.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

She stood up for herself, both to herself and to her friends and coworkers to say, "Hey, don't take my stuff. I'm paying off my student loan." Really brave. She did pay down that loan. Danced through the subway in a rented dress that she got from Rent the Runway with a big sign saying, "I'm debt-free. Hug me." And then she became a financial planner to help other people. When she's not dancing, she's now a certified financial planner person because she saw how many of her own peers, highly educated, didn't know enough about money. Here's to Denae, very much a resource for other people now that she is completely debt free.

Bobbi Rebell:

I am smiling ear to ear hearing that story. And there's so many other wonderful human stories in this book. We know it's going to be available everywhere. I won't have you say that, but where can people find out more about you and any virtual touring that you're going to be doing, my dear?

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thank you, Bobbi. The best way to be in touch with me is through my website, JulieLythcott-Haims.com. I'm sure Bobbi will put the spelling of that in the show notes. From there, you can follow me on social I'm @JLythcott-Haims everywhere. Maybe even Tik Tok, who knows, we'll see. I'm starting a membership club because I like to get real with people. I like to get really vulnerable and share. I know that that's the way we learn and grow and feel less lonely and I'm starting that. That's all online. Go to my website and just from there, you'll be able to follow me what I'm up to and all the virtual tour stuff will be on there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, thank you so much for this. Thank you for the book and thank you for joining us.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

You're amazing. Thanks for having me. And I actually feel more competent about my financial choices and what I've learned from them because you helped me think it through, by walking through these stories with me. Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:

They're all your stories. Thank you.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thanks.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, here's my take. Financial Grownup tip number one, Julie jokes about how retirement is over romanticized And I couldn't agree more. Work is not just a path to retirement. We put in about a third of our 24 hour day, and for many of us, a lot more than those eight hours. If you hate what you're doing so much, that you are laser focused on retirement, consider refocusing that energy on enjoying your day to day more. If there's anything we've learned during the pandemic, it's that we should not assume things need to stay the same. Hit pause, give yourself some grownup tough love and fix it.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial Grownup tip number two, let's get better about asking our friends and colleagues of different backgrounds and races about their experiences with money. Even though Julie clearly and candidly talks about how being a person of color impacted her money decisions in the book, as a white person I wasn't sure about asking Julia about it. I'm really glad I did. I'm not sure why I was so hesitant. And I hope we can all make time to both listen and share with each other as well. And in case you're wondering, as a white person in this country, it never even occurred to me that I needed to use a credit card to prove I belonged in a store. We need to be talking about this.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is Financial Literacy Month and I am giving away a ton of incredible books, including Julie's. You want one? All you have to do is DM me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1, and just say, "I'd love a book from a Financial Grownup". The authors that are on this podcast and their publishers are incredibly generous. And I can't wait to send out lots and lots of books. Everyone, pick up Your Turn: How to be an Adult and big thanks to Julie Lythcott-Haims for helping us all be Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creators. Yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life.

Bobbi Rebell:

And this year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go-to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free, while you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear Shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Acorn’s Chief Education Officer Jennifer Barrett shares her own “wake up’ call’ when she learned to think like a breadwinner, and gives us specific strategies to build wealth and create a path to have the rich life we all deserve. 

Jennifer’s Money Lesson-

I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth. So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Jennifer’s Money Tip-

I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbi’s Tips-

Financial Grownup Tip #1-

Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent.

Financial Grownup Tip #2-

Thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Get your copy of Think Like A Bread Winner by Jennifer Barrett

Follow Jennifer!

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• Website- www.jenniferbarrett.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbie Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good, and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more thaT I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle.

Bobbie Rebell: Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently. Like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup, or almost grownup, friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear, and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Jen Barrett: Deep down. I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life. I really thought my husband would be the main earner. So it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary, and then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises.

Bobbie Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbie Rebell: Hey, Grownups, this episode has been about five years in the making. I'll never forget sitting in a Midtown restaurant with my new friend, Jennifer Barrett. A mutual friend had introduced us thinking, "Well, you guys have a lot in common and maybe you guys will come up with some projects together." So we were brainstorming our two big ideas. For me, it was Financial Grownup and the idea of sharing money stories to inspire people to build the foundation for a wealthy life of choices, getting to live the life that they want. For Jen, it was the concept that we all had to, well, think like breadwinners. Jen had, and still has, I should say, what we call a big job. She really is the breadwinner and her job as the chief education officer at Acorns is intense and sometimes all consuming. But finally, her new book, Think Like a Bread Winner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less is coming out.

Bobbie Rebell:I can tell all of you it has been well worth the wait. I was honored that Jen asked me to contribute to this book and to endorse it along with David Bach, Eve Rodsky, the author of Fairplay, Farnoosh Torabi, who by the way wrote When She Makes More, so thinking along the same path, and Erin Lowry, who's been a frequent guest on this podcast, author of the Broke Millennial books series, and many more. In our interview, Jen Barrett shares the story that started it all when she realized what she didn't want to admit. If she wanted to get what she wanted to get, she was going to have to start thinking like a breadwinner. Here is Jennifer Barrett.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen Barrett, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jen Barrett: Thanks so much for having me.

Bobbie Rebell: I'm so excited to talk to you about your new book. So many years in the making, we've been talking about this for years. It's finally here. Think Like A Breadwinner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less. By the way, Jen, it's already getting reviews that are amazing. This one I'm going to read to people. It's from Ladders, which is a career website. "Jennifer Barrett's manifesto for working women transcends its goal by being more than a finance book, but a testament that anyone anywhere can achieve their goals with the right advice." Not bad, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, that was a nice review. It was nice to read.

Bobbie Rebell: You're very modest.

Jen Barrett: I know. You're so nervous. You're on pins and needles before the book comes out. You're like, "I hope they like it." So it was really nice to read that.

Bobbie Rebell: Well, I got a sneak peek of the book because I got to endorse it so everyone can read my blurb when they get the book. Before we talk more about it, though, you did bring with you a money story, which really inspired the book so many years ago. Tell us your money story, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, well, there's a material difference between being able to cover the bills and handle a budgets and building wealth that supports your life and the future you want. That difference became super clear to me just after we'd had our oldest son. At the time, I was in my early 30s and we were sharing a small one bedroom apartment with our toddler who was about 18 months old. One night I was pacing back and forth with him, trying to get him back to sleep, and I think it just hit me so hard in that moment that we were in a situation that was just completely unsustainable.

Jen Barrett: I had this moment of, "Wait a second. I thought I was doing everything right financially." I had a little 401k. I had a little bit of savings. I was paying half the bills. But what I realized was that I hadn't been putting money away for the things that were most important to me, and that was being able to have another child, to afford to buy a place or even to move into a bigger apartments because we lived in Brooklyn, which is not cheap. I did some real soul searching and asked myself, "Why didn't I make those choices with my money to save more and to invest more?" I realized that subconsciously I had been thinking that my husband would take the lead there. In that moment, I think it finally dawned on me how precarious an assumption that is. So I asked myself in the days that followed, "How would the choices I make with my money and my career be different if I had been raised to think like a breadwinner?"

Jen Barrett: That's what sort of set me off on a whole new journey and brought me to where I am today, more than a decade later, which is a much better place financially. We have a larger home. I helped with most of the down payment. We have two lovely sons now. I've had both a career and been able to build the kind of wealth that I couldn't have even imagined 12 years ago when I had that wake up call.

Bobbie Rebell: Tell us more about what you were doing before you had that wake up call, what kind of job you had. Because you had a really good job that a lot of people would be very, very envious of and really admire. I mean, you were high achieving and then the things that you looked for in the next job, besides obviously paying more. I know there was a lot of soul searching about sort of what people would think, because we're both journalist backgrounds, there's a lot of judgment there.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, and I think that's an important point is just because you have a good job doesn't mean that you have your finances together. You can be a professional success and feel like a financial failure. I interviewed more than 100 women for the book and I did find that to be the case with a surprising number of women who were otherwise very successful. So I think I was in sort of the same situation but with one crucial distinction, which is I was an editor at Newsweek at that point a pretty big weekly news magazine. It has since sort of gone under and been reborn and it's not quite the same as it used to be, but it was a great job. I really looked like I had it all together from the outside, but I was really living paycheck to paycheck for the most part.

Jen Barrett: We say paycheck to paycheck, but what I was was broke, right? I only had a few hundred dollars in my savings. I was still paying down some credit card debt. So if you looked at my actual net worth, I was in negative territory and I really wasn't making the kinds of choices or making the kinds of money that would allow me to support the life that I really wanted. One big reason for that, which is almost embarrassing to admit now and I've since changed my approach with this significantly, is that I had never negotiated my salary. So when I got the job at Newsweek, I was just so thrilled to be hired there I literally did not even think to negotiate. I do think part of that was that I was so excited to be hired there, but the other part of it was deep down I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life.

Jen Barrett: I really thought my husband would be the main earner and so it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary. Then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises. So one other critical moment for me was I came back from maternity leave and I found out that someone had been hired who had just a few more years experience than me in a very similar role and they were making 50% more than me. That moment was like ... It was so crushing that I vowed I would never ever make that mistake again and I was going to negotiate the hell out of every job offer and raise that I got from that point on, and it made me sort of reassess this idea I had about loyalty and about employers just taking care of you because you're doing a great job. It was a real wake up call in that sense too, where I realized I need to advocate for myself. I need to show my value. I need to ask for it and not assume that I'm going to get it just because I'm doing a good job.

Bobbie Rebell: So you set out to get a job that paid more. Tell us what that job was and how that onboarding went.

Jen Barrett: Yeah. So I was hired in my first job in management. I became the director of a health site. It was part of NBC. It was called iVillage Health. It was a huge site at the time. I think one of the top five largest health sites for women. It was a dramatic increase in the amount of responsibility I had, but also in my salary. So I ended up making almost double what I had ... Actually, no. More than double what I had been making at Newsweek and in between there I freelanced, and when I was freelancing, I really understood that I had undervalued myself and my skills because I was able to make a lot more freelancing than I had in my full-time job at Newsweek. So that was also a realization and a validation of the fact that the skills that I had were valuable. Then with this job, it both provided a lot more income. It allowed me to get the mortgage and it also put me on the management track, which I have been on ever since.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what was your husband thinking while this was going on? Did you have talks about this?

Jen Barrett: We did and I think part of it was when he and I first started dating, he was working at a startup at the time and was making a lot more than I was as a reporter. But I think that's where some of the assumptions sort of got set in my head. The startup went under and then he moved back to journalism. So he took a pretty big pay cut and suddenly our salaries were much closer than they have been. But I think in my head, I still kept telling myself that that was a temporary situation. I still expected him to earn considerably more than me, even as the evidence started to mount that that may not be the case, particularly with both of us being in journalism. We did have some discussions around that and in particular, when I got that job in management at that point, he was on contract.

Jen Barrett: So we realized that my income and my income prospects were probably greater at that particular point. Certainly I was the one who had secured the mortgage in part because I had a full-time job and it's very difficult when you are on contract to get approved. So we realized that my income was really critical to the household and so that launched a whole series of discussions about how is this going to work. I'm not going to say it was easy. We had to have a lot of really difficult discussions because I was pregnant with our second son when I moved into the breadwinner role. In my mind, again, I thought, "Oh, this is sort of a temporary situation where I'm going to take on this really demanding role so we can get the mortgage. I'll keep doing this."

Jen Barrett: Then I found I really enjoyed it. I realized I really am quite ambitious and so I wasn't sure I wanted to give up that role, but at the same time, for a while I was also trying to be the primary caregiver and that, as anyone who has tried to do both can tell you, is almost impossible to sustain. So it led to some really emotional and candid conversations with my husband about what role are we each going to take here and how are we going to divide all the responsibilities, household responsibilities, caregiving, breadwinning, in a way that feels fair to each of us?

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what is the lesson from your story?

Jen Barrett: I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth.

Jen Barrett: So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Bobbie Rebell: You also brought with you in everyday money tip.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbie Rebell: It's a very good gut check and I think it's something that sounds easy, but we don't really do that a lot. We don't usually just kind of pause and sit down and really think about that and maybe even write down a few things that we want to do. I find when you write things down, sometimes they stick a little bit better. I don't know. All right, we got to shift gears because I don't want to run out of time and we have to talk about Think Like A Breadwinner because this is a book that has been in the making for quite a long time, because it is so well researched, Jen. You spent a lot of time doing the work here and the book is chock-full of statistics that are ... Some of them would just blow my mind. If you could share with us just one statistic that's sort of your elevator pitch to get this book, what is that one stat that stands out?

Jen Barrett: Well, I think one of the most significant stats is that half of moms in this country today are contributing at least 40% of the total household earnings. That's according to the latest Institute for Women's Policy Research report. That just reinforces the fact that women's income is absolutely critical right now. I think we saw that when women started dropping out of the workforce. We could see what the impact was going to be, not just on families, but on the economy.

Bobbie Rebell: A lot of this book was already done before the pandemic, but you were still finishing it up during the pandemic. What is in the book now that would not have been pre-pandemic?

Jen Barrett: The pandemic reminded us of how important it is to take charge of our finances and to build the kind of savings and wealth that provide financial security and help us weather tough times like this. So that message of taking care of yourself and putting money into an investment account and building wealth to support you not just now but in the future is more important than ever.

Bobbie Rebell: So well said. Jen, where can people catch up with you? I know that your book is going to be everywhere.

Jen Barrett: I hope so. You can find me at jenniferbarrett.com and you can read more about the book there, and then I'm on social media all over the place. It's @jbarrettNYC on Instagram, Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn.

Bobbie Rebell: All the places.

Jen Barrett: Oh, the places. Clubhouse. Yes.

Bobbie Rebell: Yes, Clubhouse. Let's not forget that. Thanks, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Thank you.

Bobbie Rebell: Here we go. Financial Grownup tip number one. Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent. Financial Grownup tip number two, thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Bobbie Rebell: One thing I do, I always try to think of new revenue streams. My latest is Grownup Gear. You can see more about it at grownupgear.com. I hope you'll support it by checking out the merchandise. It's perfect for all of your grownup milestones. Gifts for graduation, new parents, mother's day, father's day, a new home, birthdays, or just celebrating being a grownup and kind of owning it. Discount codes available on my Instagram @bobbirebell1. Another reason to follow me on Instagram, we will be giving away copies of Jen's book and of other authors on the show. This spring, so many amazing authors are on tap and they're generously giving gifts to our Grownup community. I also want to invite everyone to join our weekly Friday at 1:00 PM Clubhouse chats in the Money Tips For Grownups club. DM me on Instagram if you need and invite to Clubhouse. Big thanks to Jen Barrett for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbie Rebell: The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books.

Bobbie Rebell: To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Author Lindsey Pollak watched her thriving speaking career hit a wall when the pandemic hit a year ago. The career and workplace expert realized she had ignored her own advice, and had all her eggs in one basket. Lindsey gets refreshingly candid about how bad it got, what she did, and how we can all do better. 

Financial Grownup Tip #1: Social media is more than social. Certainly during the pandemic depending on your business,  it has become an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the ones that fit your business. It’s not just about being social- it is about career success -and sometimes survival as well.

Financial Grownup Tip #2- If you are on social media- don’t forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in clubhouse- raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only but I do have invites so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on clubhouse- Money Tips for Grownups. I’d love to connect with you there. 

Buy your copy of Recalculating : Navigate Your Career Through The Changing World of Work.

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Full Transcript-

Bobbi Rebell: Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes. And thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Lindsey Pollak : I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures in speaking bookings. And my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to financial grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: It's been a year guys. If you want to get technical, it's been a year and about a week. Although most of us, frankly, lost count of the days and didn't even know which day of the week it was for a while. The pandemic put so many of our lives on hold and so many of our businesses in the tank.

Bobbi Rebell: For people who make their living talking to people in-person, they went from thriving to, well, there's no cute pun here. The business died. There was nothing there. For my friend, Lindsey Pollak, who is a top speaker and bestselling author, ironically in the career space, her career literally went poof last March with no end in sight.

Bobbi Rebell: This was literally unchartered territory for pretty much anyone alive these days. Two weeks to stop the spread was one thing, but getting back to packed rooms with over 1,000 people as she was used to, yeah, crickets. Even now. Lindsey agreed to share her experience with us in the hopes that many of us can at least relate to and get some solace from her experiences.

Bobbi Rebell: She also has, as she always has, great and specific advice on how we can better be prepared for the future and the unimaginable. She also managed to write a fantastic book in quarantine. It is called Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work. we do a little sneak peak at the end of our interview. Here is Lindsey Pollak. Lindsey Pollak, you are a financial grownup and welcome back to the show.

Lindsey Pollak : It is an honor to be back for the second time. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk about your new book, which was written in quarantine and has a lot of really relevant advice for anyone who is thinking of recalculating. That's also the name of the book. But first you brought us a very relevant story that happened to you just when quarantine was starting. And sadly, too many of us can relate to this. Tell us your money story, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I'd be happy to. So, like many people in March of 2020, everything stopped and everything changed. And I think we hear about food service people and certain jobs that you know would be destroyed by the pandemic or pushed off. Professional speakers were in that category.

Lindsey Pollak : I had at that time, been doing about 70 to 80 live speaking events per year. And I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures. I can't even say it. I stumble on the words. I lost six figures in speaking bookings and my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: Just to explain how speaking works, you had deposits. How does the contract work? Did you have to return all the deposits or did they reschedule or was it just gone?

Lindsey Pollak : So, you know what's interesting is, my contract said that the deposits were nonrefundable and that we would make our best efforts to reschedule if something got canceled. Several people took me up on that, I will say, and let me keep the deposits.

Lindsey Pollak : Several requested for their own financial difficulties to return it and I made the decision to do that, to keep the relationships because I understood that people were in really tough times. So I did return them. So it sort of went beyond the contract. And for anything that had been booked, but not yet paid, of course, that just disappeared. Bobbi Rebell: So then what?

Lindsey Pollak : It was tough. And I'll tell you a couple of things, because it's a financial podcast. Number one, just by luck, about a year before my bookkeeper had said, "You really need to have a credit line for your business." I had contacted my bank, Chase Bank, and gotten a very significant credit line because I have good credit that I'm extremely proud of. It's one of the proudest things in my life that I have good credit. And I got a significant six-figure credit line, which saved me.

Lindsey Pollak : I paid it all back ultimately over time, but having that fund to dip into to make sure that I could continue to pay my assistant and my rent and so on. I cut back on expenses tremendously, and I started reaching out. And it's really interesting as I didn't have a plan for where the money would come from, but I've always relied on the fact that relationships are where opportunities come from.

Lindsey Pollak : And I just called people, checked in, "How are you doing? What's going on? How are you?" I mean, for about four weeks, it was just, "Oh my gosh, what's happening?" And slowly but surely, a relationship with a UK firm that had been pending for a while, took off. Slowly but surely, people who had never booked for years were like, "Hey, could you do a session on how to work remotely?" And I was like, "Yes, I can." That had been one slide in my presentation. And now, suddenly that became a presentation.

Lindsey Pollak : It was nowhere near what I had projected for the year, but the year turned out okay. And this miracle moment was on May 5th. I'll never remember. I got an email from my agent about something totally different. And at the very bottom of the email, she said, "And by the way, do you think you might want to write a book during this pandemic experience? I feel like you might have something to say." And that one sentence turned into Recalculating, which we're here today to talk about.

Bobbi Rebell: So perfect. So you basically pivoted from doing speaking to going back to book writing, which you were always doing. This is I think number four, number five? I can't keep track of you, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I think of them like children and I had been writing a book every five years. And I had written the remix last year in 2019. And I say it's like my accidental fourth child. I didn't mean to have a child so quickly after my third, but so it happens. Bobbi Rebell: Well, it's a wonderful book. We're going to talk about it soon, but tell me what is the lesson for our listeners from this?

Lindsey Pollak : It's something that I think is such a cliche, but true. Necessity is the mother of invention. I was a speaker. I was like, I'm a speaker. That's what I do. And I realized I can't only be a speaker.

Lindsey Pollak : And when I look at the people I most admire in my world, people like you, it's do you have a podcast? Do you have online courses? Do you have newsletters? Do you get paid to write? And what I remembered is sometimes you go back to basics, which I think is the other lesson.

Lindsey Pollak : When I was first starting out, I didn't make enough money from speaking. So I was freelance writing. I was coaching. I was doing resume reviews. I was doing anything I could. And I realized I have to get back into that mindset that I'm not "just a speaker." And that's what led to these other opportunities.

Lindsey Pollak : Now, I don't want to say it was easy. I don't want to say I wasn't scared, or I didn't stay up at night, or I wasn't uncomfortable dipping into my savings or my credit line, which I did do. But ultimately, what got me through it, was going back to basics and realizing I have to get creative.

Bobbi Rebell: Looking back, what would you have done differently in terms of setting up your life? Would you have diversified your business more in advance?

Lindsey Pollak : Yes. Sometimes success is not so good because you get so deep into one area that you put all your eggs in one basket. And what's really funny is I've advised job seekers for years, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Even if you're happily employed, keep your network going. Don't just apply for jobs in one field." And I had to take my own advice.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said. And it's good to know that even people far along and super successful in their careers, sometimes have to take their own advice, which they move past. I love this. You brought with you an everyday money tip and I'm going to give a little bit of a spoiler. One part of this made you $2,000 in just extra cash. Tell us your everyday money tip because this is so fascinating. I had no idea this was such a big thing.

Lindsey Pollak : Okay. So at my heart, I grew up in Norwalk, Connecticut, the burbs. I am just a suburban girl. And in my high school, I remember they had all these categories, best dressed, best looking, all that. There was informal stuff that we would just send around to be silly.

Lindsey Pollak : And mine was most likely to drive a station wagon in the suburbs. Which by the way, I have not done, but my money tip was to clip coupons. And in the old days, I remember going to the grocery store with my mom and she had an envelope. Right. And she would hand the coupons to the checkout person. And apparently, I used to play that at home, handing the coupons to the checkout person. Bobbi Rebell: I think we all did.

Lindsey Pollak : I think we all did. Right. Bobbi Rebell: My mom definitely had the coupons. And a whole organizer. There was a coupon organizer box.

Lindsey Pollak : Oh yeah. A little box. Bobbi Rebell: And she would organize what she was going to bring that day. And you were waiting for the double coupon day.

Lindsey Pollak : And here we are, talking about personal finances on a podcast. So, the modern day version of that, it used to be called Ebates. Now it's called Rakuten. Rakuten is I have this little widget on my browser and on my phone that tells me that I can get cash back if you shop through Ebates or Rakuten.

Lindsey Pollak : And over the past several years, I've made $2,000 using that little widget to get little discounts on things. And yeah, of course, I look like, "Ooh, that's fine. I can get a little bit more cash back than if I shop at such and such." And it's funny. I always did it. My husband would make fun of me like, "Ooh, you got your $7.53 check today." And then I looked and I saw, wow, over a few years, I've made $2,000 back and that's real money.

Bobbi Rebell: And that was basically on money you were probably going to spend anyway. Now you might've chosen one retailer over another because of it, but still, it's money.

Lindsey Pollak : Target is my favorite one. The Target app I've saved, I think $110. We've been quarantining in Connecticut. And I think I've saved $110 this year, which is only $10 a month, but hey, I used that credit for other good stuff.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, absolutely. So I have in my hand, my early copy. This is one of my favorite perks of doing this podcast. I have an early copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work, which you wrote during quarantine. So, tell us what is different now, both in quarantine and hopefully, very soon as we emerge from quarantine, in terms of how we recalculate our careers and our life?

Lindsey Pollak : The first thing to think about is, recalculating is not one thing that you do in a moment and then it's over. Right. It's not like a fork in the road. I think we all need to be re-skilling, up-skilling pivoting, diversifying all the things that we talked about in my own story.

Lindsey Pollak : What we've learned through COVID is you cannot coast. Right. You can't just say, "Well, I'm comfortable where I am and I'm going to keep moving forward." You probably never could. But I think we all know that now more than ever.

Lindsey Pollak : And a really important piece of that, that I know you're so good at and is important to you, is if you're not getting good at virtual communication, and remote communication, and email, and texting, and Slack, and social media, you are not keeping up with the tools that you need to have to succeed now and into the future. It's no longer a nice to have. It's an absolute must have skill.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes, I am always learning different things. I mean, for example, right now, I started this merch store and I had to learn all this stuff about how to connect it to Instagram and so on. But it's actually really fun and you feel very accomplished. So, technical skills and learning new ways of doing business is very important.

Bobbi Rebell: And on that note, a lot of people have questions about how to use social media differently while we're in this pandemic, because it does become more important when we can't be social in person. Right.

Lindsey Pollak : Absolutely. But I think there are parallels. And so, the parallels are you've got to remember that each social network, if you're looking at it from a professional standpoint, like networking to find a job or new clients. Just like it's different to chat with people at the supermarket than to chat with people at a black tie gala, you have to see the social networks as different. You can't be the same or use the same language and style, or even necessarily profile photo, on Twitter as you would on LinkedIn, or on Instagram, or on Clubhouse, or what have you. So, number one is to acknowledge that they're all different.

Lindsey Pollak : Number two is I think you do use them in the same way you would in-person networking. So, you and I, let's say, may bond on Facebook because you're wearing a cute shirt or I see a cute picture of your son. I'm not going to say, "Do you have a job." Or, "Can I send you my resume?" I'm going to say, "Hey, great photo. Hey, do you want to get together and talk sometime about work stuff?" It's an entry point, just as if I saw you on the sidelines of a soccer game, we would talk about the game. I wouldn't start to launch into my sales pitch.

Lindsey Pollak : So, I think that social media should be seen as these personal moments where you might "bump into somebody." And then you take it to the next level off of that social network to have the professional conversation. LinkedIn is a bit different. I think LinkedIn is like a professional conference where people go, no one's going to be offended if you try to network professionally on LinkedIn. That's the point. It's like being at a conference. But for all the other sites, it's about building and solidifying real, authentic, personal relationships. And then you take the conversation elsewhere after that. Bobbi Rebell: And what do you think about Clubhouse? Because you're very successful on Clubhouse. I love dropping in on the rooms that you're in and the conversations. What's your take and your advice to people on how to use Clubhouse?

Lindsey Pollak : So that's a really good example of like, "I don't know, I'll give it a try. This is a new thing, and I'm going to try it." And I wasn't sure. To me, it's like a mix between listening to the radio and dropping in on a podcast or a webinar. But sometimes you get to talk.

Lindsey Pollak : What's absolutely amazing to me is how much free advice is there. I'm providing it myself. I do a career chat every Wednesday at one o'clock with a bunch of career experts and people just ask their questions. And what's really cool is, not only do we give our thoughts or advice, but other people on the call can raise their hand and say, "Hey, I know somebody." Or, "Oh, I have an idea for you."

Lindsey Pollak : And so, what's happening is like these conference moments in the Clubhouse app. So I'd really encourage people to give it a try. And if it's not for you, it's not for you, but it's just another tool where you might bond. And just funny things like bumping into each other. I was on it yesterday. I went to graduate school in Australia at this school called Monash University, which is just outside of Melbourne. Most people have never heard of it.

Lindsey Pollak : There was a woman on the call who had gone to Monash University and had moved to the United States. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, you're kidding." And we met on Clubhouse. So you just never know what kinds of moments like that can happen wherever you decide to show up, but you have to decide to show up.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely. So, everyone should follow Lindsey on Clubhouse. And also me. I'm on Clubhouse too.

Lindsey Pollak : Yeah. Bobbi Rebell: And I'm still learning the ropes, but I'm having a great time on it too. So, please follow both of us. Your book Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work is going to be available everywhere, March 23rd. Where can people get in touch with you?

Lindsey Pollak : So my website is my name, lindseypollock.com. I'll spell it for you because it's a doozy. L-I-N-D-S-E-Y-P-O-L-L-A-K. I'm the only one in the world who spells it that exact way. And I'd be delighted to connect with anyone there or on social media.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Lindsey Pollak : Thank you, Bobbi. Bobbi Rebell: Here we go. Financial grownup tip number one. Social media is a lot more than social these days. Certainly during the pandemic, depending on your business, it became an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the onesthat fit your business. It's not just about being social. It is about career success and sometimes career survival as well.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two. If you are on social media, don't forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in Clubhouse, raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only, but I do have invites, so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on Clubhouse, Money tips for Grownups. I'd love to connect with you there.

Bobbi Rebell: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a screenshot and share it on social media. And if you tag me, @bobbirebell1, that will also enter you into our book and merch giveaways. I also want to encourage everyone to pre-order a copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work by Lindsey Pollak. It is a bit complicated, but it really helps Lindsey if you pre-order it.

Bobbi Rebell: And this episode is dropping about a week before it's released, so you still have a week to get it done. And it is truly a big deal to Lindsey, so thank you for doing that. I promise you will love it. And big thanks to my friend, Lindsey Pollak, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell: The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell: Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell: While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram, @bobbirebell1, and on Twitter,

@ bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcast. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Are you working harder than ever and not getting paid what you are worth? Claire Wasserman explains why so many of us get short-changed and shares 5 specific strategies that will upsize our income and compensation. Plus, Claire reveals the behind the scenes story of AOC’s decision to run for political office and her role in the gutsy move. 

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Claire’s 5 Tips For How To Get Paid More!

Tip #1-

Talk to real people about their salary. You could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to a real person. Remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Tip #2-

Have three numbers. I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. This is a big problem because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. Oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter. So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there. So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Tip #3-

Talk about the whole picture. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Tip #4-

Talk about your value add. I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but make the case for yourself. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company." If you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. Discounts with vendors? Maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money. That is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees. Have testimonials too. You should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review.

Tip #5-

You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. So how do you address this? You use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." You've said your big number. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together."

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• Merch - grownupgear.com
  

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy Tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally, makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

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Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup Guide, five ways to get paid more with Ladies Get Paid's Claire Wasserman.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey, grownup friends. Do you want to make more money? Yeah I thought so, and yeah, me too. The harsh reality is that the pandemic has been brutal, not just for our health, but also, yeah, for our wealth. Because how do you ask for more money from your boss, or how do you raise prices on your customers in a pandemic? I mean, we should be grateful just to have our jobs, just to have our businesses running if that's the case, which is true. That doesn't mean that we don't deserve to get paid more, and that doesn't mean that we can't get paid more. And we should not assume that those who make the decisions can't and aren't willing to pay us more. Right?

Bobbi Rebell: So I was thrilled to get to talk with Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid about her new book aptly titled, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. So, if you are open to making more money, this episode is definitely for you. By the way, no need to take notes. As always, the show notes have a quick summary of the episode, and all the links that you will need, and even a transcript of the entire interview. You just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and click on the Financial Grownup tab to bring you to the podcast section. There's also a search box on the top right if you want to search for this or a past episode.

Bobbi Rebell: Okay, my friends here is Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid.

Bobbi Rebell: Claire Wasserman, welcome to the Financial Grownup Podcast, and congrats on your new book, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career.

Claire Wasserman: Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk more about the book later in the show, but I want to get right into the five ways to get paid more that you brought for us. The first one is about talking to real people. And that sounds easy, but in this age, it can be complicated.

Claire Wasserman: Well, you could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to real people.

Claire Wasserman: Here's the good news, if you are nervous, remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Claire Wasserman: Now, you don't have to ask people specifically, "How much do you make?" Because sometimes that can feel a little uncomfortable. So instead, how about you bring them the research that you've done? "Listen, I'm an art director, five years into my career. I am working for a company that has 10 people." And please note here, I'm talking about context. Context is key. Tell them, "This is the research I did between X and Y. This is the salary. I think I should be getting paid. Am I off base, or, more abstractly, what's the ballpark that you're making?" Just remember, you want to talk to white men also, because they're the ones who are getting paid the most.

Claire Wasserman: And if any of them were trying to figure out how to be allies, which a lot of them are, this is a great way that they can support you. So don't be afraid to even cold email people, find them on LinkedIn, tell them you're trying to figure out your salary and you'd love for them to be an ally. How much do they make? Would they be willing to share, even just a ballpark. The worst thing that can happen is they just don't respond.

Bobbi Rebell: The second tip to get paid more is, "Have three numbers." What does that mean, Claire?

Claire Wasserman: Well, I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. Big problem, big problem, because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. I mean, oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter.

Claire Wasserman: So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there.

Claire Wasserman: So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Bobbi Rebell: Even though you have those three numbers in your head, is it better to try to get them to make the first offer, or is it better for you to throw out the number first?

Claire Wasserman: I have a controversial opinion here, because I think when you do research, a lot of other coaches will tell you, "Never be the first one to say the number, because you might low ball yourself."

Claire Wasserman: If you've done the market research and they're paying in the market research, when you were the first person to say it, you're anchoring high. If they are the first person, they may be anchoring low. And it sometimes can feel a little uncomfortable to say, "Well, that wasn't really what I was thinking," or it might throw you off, maybe even demoralizes you. So start with the number you want, but back it up with the research that you've done. You can even say, "I've spoken to a number of other people," if they ask, "Where did you get this number?"

Claire Wasserman: And you can also say things like, "This is the number, the market research that I found, but what are you proposing?" So it's not like you're ending the conversation with that first number.

Bobbi Rebell: And a lot of employers, though, try to find out what you were making before and anchor to that. How should people handle that? Because it also depends where you live.

Clair Wasserman: Exactly. So some states have passed what's called the Salary History Ban. The thinking behind that is if marginalized groups are getting paid less than other people from the beginning of their career, and every time that they get a raise, if that's always based on that original salary, well then, the gap will compound over time and will never catch up. So you can decline to respond, or you can be abstract, or tell them how much you got paid, but listen, that's not relevant to the ask now.

Claire Wasserman: I mean, even think about this, look at the original job description, write a new one for what you did. You're going to see a lot of changes. You're going to see experiences, growth, maybe totally different work that you ended up taking on. So the salary that was originally given to you was based on what you knew then. Regardless of what this next job is, and the market research, just know for yourself that you have grown by leaps and bounds since that first salary.

Bobbi Rebell: Number three, "You want to talk about the whole picture."

Claire Wasserman: Yes. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability, full compensation. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Claire Wasserman: So I would say, "What are the top one, two and three items for full comp you can bring up?" I would personally bring it up after the salary conversation is over, only because I don't want them to use your full comp ask as leverage to get that salary down. And you want to ask for this, regardless of whether or not it's a pandemic, just be prepared that you may need to ask for more things, more full comp, if a time like now, if they're not saying yes to the salary.

Claire Wasserman: If you're wondering, "Well, Claire, if they don't have the money to give me a salary bump, how are they going to afford to give me a signing bonus, or pay for me to go to a conference?" A lot of times these come from different budgets. I know so many women who were not able to get the salary they wanted, but the signing bonus actually got them to a place where their now annual salary was exactly what they wanted to begin with. And that was simply because different budgets from different departments.

Claire Wasserman: So if you don't ask, a hundred percent, you're not getting. Again, the worst thing that can happen is they say, "No," which in my mind is really a, "Not yet." And then you can continue the conversation later.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that. A "Not yet." Not a "No." Are there benefits that have evolved during the pandemic that people may not be aware of, that they can ask for?

Claire Wasserman: Well, make sure that you're getting cell phone and internet and anything that requires you to do work from home, which by the way, I think most of us are doing, or a lot of us are doing that.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh yeah.

Claire Wasserman: I wonder if it can even be your laptop, paper, pen, I mean, really pretend you're a freelancer, to be honest. Your overhead costs, they should be paying for. If you want to continue flexibility, you've really proven now to them that it is possible. So if this fits for your lifestyle and you want to do a hybrid model, be prepared to ask, and you can make the case, I think, pretty easily.

Bobbi Rebell: Is that something you should ask before you start, or is that something that you should wait? Because traditionally, people often said "Go in 100% and be extremely present. And then once you prove yourself and they know you and they trust you, then you can ask for a hybrid approach." What's your take on that?

Claire Wasserman: Yeah. I mean, if this is a deal breaker for you, then you definitely want to bring this up maybe during the interview, otherwise you're wasting your own time along with theirs. You can also ask open-ended question of, "Do you have a hybrid model? Are there other people doing this? I'm just curious." So you can get a sense from the very beginning of their openness to the conversation.

Claire Wasserman: And then in terms of proving yourself, sure, but just to remember that it's not necessarily all or nothing. You can ask for maybe once or twice a month, or once a week, or something where they can see how this is going to go. And also proactively address all the reasons that they might be hesitant, so you're not just, "Hey, can I work from home?" And letting them tell you, "No, no, no." It's okay if you're concerned about team dynamic or communication, "Here's a way that we can address that." Just making it really easy for them to feel good about saying yes to you.

Bobbi Rebell: Exactly. And make it easy to say yes. The fourth way to get paid more is my favorite. It's about your value add, really.

Claire Wasserman: I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but making the case... So it's you say, "Well, Hey, I want top dollar." "Well, hold on now. You have to prove to me that you're a top performer." You don't get the money, because you deserve it, even though, I know you deserve it. And it's also not about, "Here's the work that I did," because guess what? It was your job. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company."

Claire Wasserman: Now, if you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, well, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. I mean, discounts with vendors, maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money that is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees.

Claire Wasserman: So if you're a part of contributing to the culture of the company, it means as much as if you were able to land a client, but you just have to make the case. Have testimonials too. So through all throughout the year, I mean, first of all, you should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review. I mean, not to put it so... It sounds not great, but that's the same thing. It's like, "Don't just take my word for it. Take Bob's word for it."

Bobbi Rebell: Okay. The fifth way to get paid more, this is something I think is very hard for a lot of women, because you tell them to be assertive, but you also have to have empathy.

Claire Wasserman: You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because we are, this is terrible, but there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating, put others before ourselves, be nice, be good girls, don't disrupt.

Claire Wasserman: Well, hold on now. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. Well, what's the chance that they're going to now look at you like you're aggressive? And women of color, I know you're nodding. This is something that they even more. So how do you address this? Well, you use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." But you've said your big number, I want to be clear. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together." Or, "I know this is a company that pays women equitably." That's actually shaming them a little bit.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that one.

Claire Wasserman: Or, "This is a company that is very fair. I'm sure we can figure this out together." And you can always, at the very end, just say, "Well, what would you do if you were in my shoes?" Bring it around. And do remember that we're all negotiating in this environment. They will, I think, automatically have empathy with you if you have empathy with them.

Bobbi Rebell: I don't want to let you go before we talk a little bit about your book directly. Like I said, it's called Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. What was your favorite chapter?

Claire Wasserman: I don't think I have a favorite chapter. I just have favorite stories. So for those of you listening, if you're not familiar with the book, I structure it by following the lives of nine real women from the Ladies Get Paid community. Each of them is going through a different professional challenge. And as I tell their story, I stop along the way, and I give advice.

Claire Wasserman: A woman who came to the second workshop that I ever organized about getting unstuck in her career, and all the way, for the next year and a half, she wanted to be in some kind of civic engagement role, maybe in politics. And finally, at a town hall that I hosted about reinventing yourself, she stood up and she declared to the whole room, "I have always wanted to run for office, but people who look like me don't run for office." And she was a young Hispanic woman. And this was in front of a room, this is a hundred women. She said, "But I am going to run for office."

Claire Wasserman: And everybody cheered. And I cried. I cried, because I knew her. I knew her since college. We were so excited for her, because of how brave she was. She declared that she was going to do something that she was probably not going to succeed at. She was going to be going against an incumbent who was 20 or 30 years older than her, of course, a white man. And so here she was, saying, "I'm going to do this thing. And the chances that I even seed are so slim." But that was why it was courageous, and that's why we were so moved by her.

Claire Wasserman: Now, of course, a year later, she wins. Then she became the youngest Congresswoman ever. And her name is Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. So that story is my favorite. I guess I just gave away the ending of that story. If that wasn't enough to have you read the book... Well, you'll read the book. I know you all will.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah, the book was amazing. And by the way, it's important to know that even though the title is Ladies Get Paid, there is a lot of general career advice here. It's really powerful. And things that you haven't necessarily heard before are very original strategies that I think will be helpful to everyone.

Bobbi Rebell:My favorite chapter, by the way, was in level up section, you have different sections. I love chapter eight, Get Allies, because I think it's so important to have allies in your corner. As you mentioned, so many jobs are never publicly listed. And so it's important to have people that are looking out for you. And it's not always your direct inner circle. Sometimes it's your acquaintances that can be so valuable in helping your career.

Claire Wasserman: I have never gotten a job that I applied to online. I think I maybe got an interview once. My whole career has come from relationships that I've built over time. They've also been strategic. It's not mutually exclusive to be authentic and have a genuine friendship while also knowing how both of you are going to leverage each other's strengths and connections. And that, again, has been the key, the key to men, the old boys club that exists for a reason. And so we have to create the young girls club. How about that?

Bobbi Rebell: Yes. Well, it's the everyone club, really. And you have to... One of my favorite stories was the last one that you share, which is Madeline, who really investigated and was very upset to find that the men in her company were making multitudes of what she was making. I was a little bit upset by what the ending was, but it was a big lesson.

Claire Wasserman: So that name has been changed.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes.

Claire Wasserman: Her story is in the New Yorker. You can all figure it out.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah.

Claire Wasserman: It is wild. It is even more dramatic than I put in the book, because my editor thought, "Well, the people won't believe this." So you know what? Truth is stranger than fiction, and I'm so honored by her and everybody else who so vulnerably shared their struggles with me. I think it goes a long way to showing folks out there that they're not alone, which is the first step, undo any shame that you have in order to be open to learning and to helping others. We're all going through something. It's so relieving. It's like you just alleviate this weight off of you when you share your story, and I'm just honored that these women did that with me and for you all.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. And thank you for sharing all of those stories. Tell us more about where people can reach you. We know the book is available everywhere. Where can people be in touch with you and Ladies Get Paid?

Claire Wasserman: I would love you all to follow me on Instagram. I'm @ClaireGetsPaid. You can also follow @LadiesGetPaid on Instagram, and join our Slack group. We've got 75,000 women from all over the world. They've exchanged more than two million messages since 2016. So very talkative in there, and it's free. So just join at LadiesGetPaid.com, and we'll add you. And thanks, Bobbi, for having me. I always love an opportunity to share my story, and as you can tell, I like to talk.

Bobbi Rebell: If you loved what Claire had to say as much as I did, I hope you will, first of all, go buy her book. It's great. And I also hope you will take a moment, while you are listening to this podcast, and take a screenshot of it and post it on Instagram Stories or other social media. And if you tag me @BobbiRebell1, that's B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L, and then the number one, you will be entered into our monthly giveaways. You can win books by our authors that are on the podcast, as well as merch from our new Grownup Gear store. You can see the merch, by the way, right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. You'll see it says shop grownup gear.

Bobbi Rebell: Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of the Financial Grownup podcast. So grateful for Claire Wasserman for helping us all learn to get paid like financial grownups. Bye, everyone.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Jessica Zweig leads the thriving personal branding business: Simply Be. But the author of the new book "Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself” only got to this point in her life because she was able to exit a toxic business relationship that brought her personally and financially to rock bottom. Plus she shares an everyday money tip that will help us reach our goals during the pandemic, no matter what obstacles we are facing. 

Jessica’s Money Story:

My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had 100,000 local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship." And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth. It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch.

Jessica’s Money Lesson:

Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page.

Jessica’s Money Tip:

So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Bobbi’s Take:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships, and used the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. - This past week the dating app Bumble went public. Its founder,  Whitney Wolfe Herd started Bumble in 2014..  after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder, where she was a co-founder- after a breakup with another co-founder. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and is worth over a billion dollars. 

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

So many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic- in part because it feels like no one is watching. I mean after all. We can and do literally work in our pajamas. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time. Get an accountability partner. Get someone who will be committed to you- and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren’t doing that- break up fast and find another accountability partner. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy, but this more quiet time will come to an end, and the opportunity to get to your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste. 

Get your copy of Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself.

Follow Jessica!

• Twitter - @jessica_zweig

• Instagram - @jessicazweig

• Jessica’s website - www.jessicazweig.com

• Facebook - Jessica Zweig

• LinkedIn - Jessica Zweig

Follow Bobbi!

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Merch - grownupgear.com

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys, are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy t-shirts and we need to give ourselves an upgraded but still super comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

Bobbi Rebell: I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick me ups to to let them know it's all good and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost grownup friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales follow us on Instagram at our new handle at @GrownupGear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear you help support this free podcast.

Bobbi Rebell: The debt and the brokeness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would've if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We've got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Financial Grownup Podcast. We share money stories here that had big impacts on our guests lives and of course then they share with us the lessons from them. I'm your host Bobbi Rebell, Journalist, Certified Financial Planner and author of the book How To Be a Financial Grownup. If you're new here welcome. I'm so glad you found us.

Bobbi Rebell: So that clip that you heard at the top of the show was from author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig. Jessica has a new book out called Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. I have to say I love that title. The thing about Jessica is that if you don't know her you would never know all the things that she has had to overcome to well be where she is now that included a toxic business relationship that lasted for seven years. The breakup left her with nothing hitting rock bottom at age 33, even having to ask her parents for money just to pay her phone bill. Just when we think we will be hitting our grownup stride you never know what's going to hit us. There is a lot to learn from this remarkable woman and she does not hold back in this interview. Here is Jessica Zweig.

Bobbi Rebell: Jessica Zweig, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me Bobbi. I'm pumped to be here.

Bobbi Rebell: Well, I am pumped to have you here. Your book Be, I'm holding it up by the way, Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself is about to come out and it's your first book. Congratulations.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much. You know how much goes into it so thank you for saying that.

Bobbi Rebell: I really enjoyed learning so much about you and what you teach people in the book. What's interesting is you come across as having it all together which you do now I'm going to say but it wasn't always the case. You brought with us a money story that is sadly something many of us can relate to but often don't know what to do with, I should say that often don't know what to do about, and that is finding ourselves in toxic relationships personally and in business in work environments. Tell us your money story Jessica.

Jessica Zweig: My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had a hundred thousand local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship."

Jessica Zweig: And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth.

Jessica Zweig: It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch. Bobbi Rebell: When you look back were there red flags that you should have spotted in the relationship, in the business in terms of the skills that you both brought?

Jessica Zweig: From day one. I mean, there were massive red flags. I think I realized three months in just how different we were but we were young and we were so naive and we both really loved this business. This magazine Cheeky was our baby. And so I didn't want to give it up and she didn't want to give it up and at the core there was a magic connection with us. We wouldn't have created what we created if there wasn't that synergistic spark. And we both loved each other to a degree which was what made it so difficult.

Jessica Zweig: But there were red flags and it was honestly one of the most toxic relationships of my life. I mean, we were together for seven years and we were water and vinegar. We were just totally different people. And I'm not saying I was better or she was worse, we were just different. I've come to so much peace and love and honestly forgiveness for myself first in the way that I showed up in that relationship as much as her and how she showed up in the relationship which I think has really been a huge key to me soaring in the last few years because I really did my own work.

Jessica Zweig: I think it's so easy to point fingers at people when they burn us or they hurt us or they come after us. There's that expression when you point one finger at someone, I mean do it, you're pointing three back at yourself. So you really do have to look at yourself in any sort of situation but when it comes to money it's especially loaded and I could still be angry, I could still be bitter, I could still be resentful. I don't feel any of those feelings. And it was the greatest learning lesson of my life. I applied all of those mistakes, all of those failures to simply be and simply be is so successful and it wouldn't have been unless I had that seven year chapter and run of making all of those mistakes.

Jessica Zweig: So, I think that everything happens for a reason and I feel like the debt and the brokenness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would have if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. So, everything happens for a reason and divine order. It's happening for you not to you even though it can really feel the opposite in the moment. I wouldn't be who I am without that business and that failure.

Bobbi Rebell: Can you me a specific example of something that happened that highlighted your differences? It doesn't have to be your biggest fight or something but something especially money related that you just never agreed on.

Jessica Zweig:I think we were both pretty irresponsible with the way we spent the business's money. I really wanted to grow it and scale it and exit. I wanted to be that type of entrepreneur and she wanted it to be a more lifestyle business. If you're going to go into business with anyone whether it's a business partner or someone on your team or your leadership team to really understand those nuances and get everyone on the same page. Because it sets the foundation for the type of business and the rate in which you want to grow and how you want to operate and who you want to do business with so, so much. And we just didn't have the skills. We were so young. We didn't have the tools to talk about money and business at that level. We were green as grass. So, of course it netted out the way that we netted out. And we also were really done when we opened up our credit cards. She was the personal guarantor on the credit cards. It was just mistake, after mistake, after mistake.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. I love that you're talking about the fact that it is so hard to talk about money and it sounds like you guys didn't have a lot of talks about money and how you were going to structure your firm and how you were going to fund it before you started it. What is the lesson for our listeners as we put it all in context?

Jessica Zweig: Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken and I think actually way, way up and make the right decision to partner with the right people in the first place. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page. And yet money makes people funny no matter what and so you really have to recognize that in yourself and in the others and bring as much consciousness and integrity to those kinds of negotiations, conversations, whatnot.

Bobbi Rebell: I could talk to you forever about this but I want to get your everyday money tip because it's something that I am already implementing for 2021 and that is having accountability, having an accountability partner. Talk about that.

Jessica Zweig: Yeah. So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Jessica Zweig: And so, I brought in my husband who is a financial advisor, as well as you are. And his business had kind of slowed down, he couldn't go out and network, we were quarantining. And he's like, "Jess, I'll help you with the PPP." He took one look at my finance team and was like, "Dude, I can do this better." And so I fired my finance team and I hired my husband. And my husband and I have always obviously been partners and accountable to each other because we're married but bringing him into my business...

Jessica Zweig: He's now my CFO, he helps me run the shop, saving money, ensuring that our P and L's are always balanced, making sure we're net profitable. Having someone that I trust, obviously I trust no one more than my own husband but he has really allowed me to fly as the CEO because I know that he's got things covered. And we operate like a legit finance CFO to CEO. We take weekly meetings. He has an agenda. We run through every money in money out, hiring, investments, savings. We don't have any debt in our business. It's a really powerful person, obviously it's my own husband. But if you can have someone to pulse check you, to support you, to believe in you, to honestly be able to see the forest from the trees more than you can in your own project or business or money endeavor that is so key.

Jessica Zweig: And then another thing that I have done that has really allowed me to get out of debt and save money and feel really, really peaceful and abundant and my husband has helped me with this is we've set up an account. I call it my island account and it's a bank account we can only put money in. And if I needed to take money out I'd have to drive all the way across town in the worst hours, whatever. It's my island account. I can only send money to it, it can only grow. And I'm stacking my cheddar as my accountant once told me and my husband helps me ensure that money is being sent to that account every single month and that we're totally able to send that level of money over to that account and that's really grown our savings. My husband and I sleep well at night because of it.

Jessica Zweig: And so those are the key hacks that having my husband and having that account has changed honestly my financial wellbeing more than my finances but more of my financial wellbeing, which I think is key to vibrating at that level of abundance and attracting more.

Bobbi Rebell: That's such great advice. There's also a lot more great advice and I'm picking up your book now even though I know we're on audio and your book, okay I'm going to read the title Be, with a period, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. And I love the yellow cover. Yellow became one of your themes in the book so it transcends so much about you and your sunny personality. Tell us briefly about the book.

Jessica Zweig: So the book is a personal branding book. It's going to walk you through my trademark methodology of how to build your platform, the platform of you. Whether you work for yourself, or you work for someone else, or you want to one day work for yourself, having an understanding of what makes you you is an invaluable asset that you can take with you no matter what your job title is. That's number one. It's going to teach you tactically step-by-step how to do that from messaging, to strategy, to content, to social media, to PR.

Jessica Zweig: However, it is a personal empowerment book in fact disguised as a business book. Because I think at the core most people feel afraid to do that and to put themselves out there. And I say that my book is the permission slip and the reminder that you are worthy to be seen and to shine and to have everything you ever want. And it's my own journey in fact as well and my uncovering that truth for myself. And so, I'm right along with you throughout the whole book and you're going to take away so much tactical knowledge but at the end of the day I hope it inspires people to stop playing small and stop apologizing for their authentic amazingness. And that's what my book Be is about.

Bobbi Rebell: One of the recommendations in the book is to keep your social media and all of your public identifying names, et cetera, very consistent. So let's end with you telling us where people can find you on all of the social media because I know you keep it easy.

Jessica Zweig: I walk the talk as I say I drink my own Kool-Aid. So yes I am at Jessica Zweig on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, jessicazweig.com. You can also go to simplybeagency.com which is my company's website and find me. I'm really, really, really easy to find. I'm out there. So please come and say hi.

Bobbi Rebell: Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me. This was amazing.

Bobbi Rebell: Here we go my friends Financial Grownup tip number one, some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships like Jessica, and like Jessica they use the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. This past week the dating app Bumble went public and its founder Whitney Wolfe-Herd started Bumble in 2014 after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder where she was a co-founder after a breakup with another co-founder. And she's talked about it a lot, it was a toxic relationship for sure. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and worth over a billion dollars. What a great story.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup tip number two, so many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic in part because it feels like no one's watching. I mean, after all we can and do literally work in our pajamas, certainly the off-camera part. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time, get an accountability partner like Jessica. Get someone who will be committed to you and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren't doing that well break up fast and find another accountability partner who's a better fit. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy but this more quiet time will come to an end and the opportunity to get your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste.

Bobbi Rebell: One way to get motivated, get out of those PJ's. Realistically, I know we aren't getting dressed up but have some fun with your pandemic wardrobe. That's what I know I needed when I came up with a concept for Grownup Gear it is all about celebrating wherever we are in our journey to being grown ups which never really ends let's be honest. Check out the designs on my website, bobbirebell.com. Click on shop or just go directly to grownupgear.com. And please be in touch. DM me what you want more of on this podcast. I love your feedback. I put discount codes for Grownup Gear on my Instagram, which by the way is Bobbi Rebell one. And we did just start a Grownup Gear Instagram. We don't have a lot of followers so please come check it out. That's at @GrownupGear on Instagram.

Bobbi Rebell: So big thanks to Jessica Zweig, author of Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing You Self-Worth and Your Net Worth By Simply Being Yourself. Everyone check out the book and thanks again to Jessica for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Gamestop's meteoric rise and fall, and the roles Reddit, Hedge Funds, and Robinhood played in it, have many lessons for financial grownups. Bobbi explains what happened, and reveals what new data is showing that many news reports initially got wrong. 

In this episode, you will learn:

-What actually happened?

- Why did Gamestop stock surge?

-How does short selling work?

-What goes on in the online forums (like reddit’s Wall Street Bets)?

-What is a short squeeze?

-How FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) played into things.

-Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

-Who got hurt and why?

-What did we learn from this?

Takeaways:

#1 - While everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

#2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

#3 -Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

This is going to be a special solo episode and we are going to talk about the Gamestop phenemonon that happened recently that has gotten a lot of you interested in how the stock market works, how the companies that hold the money you invest in stocks work, and most of all, how you can make money by buying stocks. 

Here on the financial grownups podcast we normally share money stories that impacted our lives and the lessons from them, or tips and tricks to improve your financial situation but today we’re breaking format because what happened recently with Gamestop, and a few other stocks, and Robinhood and some other brokerage firms really changed the game for a lot of people. 

Here’s what we are going to cover:

What actually happened- why did Gamestop (which is a company that wasn’t doing well). suddenly have a surging stock?

How does short selling work?

What goes on in the online forums, like reddit’s Wall Street Bets?

What is a short squeeze?

FOMO- fear of missing out- how that played into things…

Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

Who got hurt and why?

What did we learn?

So let’s start with what happened. Gamestop’s actual business, which is primarily selling video games in brick and mortar retail stores, was not doing well. So a lot of professional investors, including hedge funds, were betting against it, doing something called short selling. And by the way- this happened recently with a few stocks but we’re just going to talk about Gamestop here. 

What is short selling. Essentially- the investor goes to the broker and borrows the stock. They turn around and sell that stock to someone else. So they don’t have the stock, but they do have to return it to the broker. The goal is for the stock to go down between the time they sold it to someone else, and the time they have to buy it back, to return it back to the broker who lent it to them. Short selling is super risky because if the stock goes up- it absolutely has to be bought to give back to the broker. Since there is no limit to how high a stock can go, there is no limit to how much the short seller can lose. In other words- don’t go there unless you really know what you are doing. 

While this was happening, the stock started getting talked about on reddit, in particular on a page called Wall Street bets. They noticed that the stock was heavily shorted- and that there was a big change at Gamestop- some new members of the board. One in particular, Chewy Co-founder Ryan Cohen got noticed because he had a lot of digital experience- something Gamestop really needed. That combination got the Wall Street Bets folks to pile into the stock and cause it to rally. 

Next topic: The short Squeeze. Remember all those Wall Street professionals that had shorted the stock? As the stock rose, they were seeing that the price to re-buy the stock they had shorted was skyrocketing and they had to cover their bets.. by buying the stock… which set in motion this seemingly accelerating rise in Gamestop stock-

Then came the FOMO- fear of missing out. As news reports of this were coming out, more and more people wanted in on the action, and things started to get out of hand. Plus the whole thing took on a larger meaning because of media reports that  all these little guys banding together- there were more than 5 million folks on that reddit page- and the word was they were beating these big professional hedge funds. Everyone was talking about it. 

Now let’s talk about the brokerage firms and one in particular that gets a lot of attention: Robinhood. Amateur investors can go on Robinhood and trade for free. Robinhood has had it’s share of controversy in the past, but that’s a whole other podcast. In this case, Robinhood started to get worried- and, citing extreme volatility stopped allowing it’s customers to buy the stock- though they could still sell it. So keep in mind, Robinhood’s customers are generally individuals. The professional investors who were not dependent on Robinhood could keep buying and selling. The optics were not good. Some people thought they were doing it to protect the Wall Street pro’s from losing too much money. Politicians cried foul, and people lawyered up. 

As the dust settles - there is another dramatic twist. University of Chicago law professor Todd Henderson, says the pros saw what was happening and basically piggy backed on the little guys. 

He studied the data from that time. And while there was a burst of retail activity-  he says in a cnbc piece- eventually it was actually the big guys- against the other big guys. According to Henderson, hedge funds purchased stock and held it. This created fewer shares for short sellers to borrow in the market, and that squeezed the number of possible shares available to be loaned, making it harder for short sellers to bet against the stock. The desperate short-sellers needed to find new shares to borrow but supply got constricted.. If you are not following at this point- that’s kind of the point. It’s complicated. And it is not for amateurs. 

And that brings us to who got hurt and why. So yes, hedge funds and one in particular got hurt. As I write this, Gamestop’s gains have almost all disappeared, so a lot of people who bought it will likely sell it for a big loss. And they probably won’t talk about it. Especially with all the bragging going on about how much their friends and family made on the rise up- assuming they sold it at a profit. FOMO can cost you. 

So finally - what are the lessons to take away from all this?

Lesson #1 - while everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

Lesson #2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

Lesson #3 Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

As for my take, it’s never a good feeling to know that many well meaning people took risks they didn’t understand and lost money, I am glad that this got so many non-investors interested in learning more about the stock market. And even though that interest was motivated by momentum driven trading, my hope is that eventually that will evolve into learning about thoughtful, intentional and strategic investing, that will help all of us reach out grownup financial goals. 

Thanks everyone for joining me- for more money tips and advice- plus lots of giveaways please go to my website bobbirebell.com and sign up for the grownup list. 

I love bringing you this podcast and it is and always will be free to you but there are a number of ways that you can support the show if you enjoy it. 

Number one- tell a friend about it. 

Number two- take a screenshot and share on social media

Number three- write a review on apple podcasts

And finally- do a little responsible shopping on my grownupgear.com website. It’s got t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags and more- all tied to being grownups. The products make great gifts, for friends, family and co-workers, and even for yourself. 

Thanks everyone, for joining me and for being financial grownups. 

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn-https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbirebellkaufman

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

When Jessica Goodman landed a book deal, and later a TV deal for her debut novel “They Wish They Were us” many people though she would go full time on her side-hustle. But Goodman says that was never the plan, and explains why and how she blends the finances and demands of her two dream jobs.

In Jessica’s Money Story she shares:

-How she started writing her e first book, “They Wish They Were Us.”after having the idea for years.

-How she researched what is involved in selling a book to a publisher, including getting an agent

-How she kept her employer, Cosmopolitan Magazine informed and supportive of her book writing side hustle

-How an advance works for an author, including the tax implications

-What she wishes she knew about being an author and how much they are paid before she wrote and sold the book

-How she was able to adapt her schedule to both her full time job at Cosmopolitan Magazine, and writing books

-What you need to know about how a full time job works compared to being a self-employed author, including quarterly taxes

-When you should think about bringing in an accountant.

In Jessica’s Money Lesson you will learn:

-Why and how you should re-evaluate the way you think about money

-The best strategies to manage money when you are paid inconsistently in chunks

-How she and her partner adapted their spending during the pandemic

-How to resist it when people who care about you give you bad financial advice

Jessica’s Money Tip:

-Even if you live in a small space it can pay to buy in bulk during quarantine (and maybe after!)

-Think of non-traditional items that you would not have used as much at home- like buying wine by the case

-Tips about ordering groceries online including having the heaviest items delivered

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. If you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Get a system going and understand that you might miss out on things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Episode Links:

• Jessica’s website - https://www.goodmanjessica.com/

• Buy They Wish They Were Us

• Pre-Order They’ll Never Catch Us

Follow Jessica!

• Instagram - @jessicagoodman

• Twitter - @jessgood

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

  
  Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Full transcript of show:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees. Much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Jessica Goodman:

When I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. You publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey friends, do you have a passion project or a side hustle? One you dream of doing full time one day and maybe getting to ditch that day job? Well, Cosmopolitan's Jessica Goodman had a passion project that she was quietly working on for years. And that was to be an author. Her debut novel, a murder mystery set in an elite private school called They Wish They Were Us ended up being such a hit that it is now being made into a TV series, starring Halsey and Euphoria's Sydney Sweeney. Fast-forward and Jessica has now scored a book for a second novel that is already coming out this summer. So all systems go on the dream career, right? Well, not so fast. To the surprise of quite a few people in her life, rather than ditch, she doubled down, staying on a Cosmopolitan magazine where she is currently the op-ed editor.

Bobbi Rebell:

In our interview, Jessica shares why she is sticking with the day job, goes through exactly how she manages her time and gets candid about what she wishes she knew about before diving into the book business, including, well, a lot of tech stuff. For those of you new to the Financial Grownup Podcast, welcome. I'm so glad that you are here. We talk with financial grownups here about money stories that impacted their lives and the lessons learned from those stories. We also ask them to bring along an everyday money tip that we can put to work right away. Spoiler alert. Jessica's has to do with how she and her partner buy their wine. So stay tuned for her tip on that. And with that, let's get to this week's interview. Here is Cosmo op-ed editor and author of They Wish They Were Us, Jessica Goodman.

Bobbi Rebell:

Jessica Goodman, I'm so excited to finally have you on the show. You are definitely a financial grownup. Welcome.

Jessica Goodman:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

And happy 2021, a year when your second, soon to be bestseller is going to be released. Before we get into your money story, tell us a little bit about each of your books just briefly.

Jessica Goodman:

So my first book, They Wish They Were Us came out in August and it is a young adult thriller that follows a high school senior, Jill Newman, who is in a very exclusive society within her Long Island prep school. And at the beginning of the book, she is reflecting on the fact that her best friend died when she was a freshman and she was also part of this society. And soon after the book begins, she starts getting text messages that say that her best friend Shayla didn't die the way that everybody thinks she did. And so what follows is kind of a whodunit, murder mystery set in this very exclusive prep school. And it's really an exploration of privilege and friendship and peer pressure. And I kind of like to say that it's like Gossip Girl meets Pretty Little Liars, meets A Secret History. It's really fun. And it's being adapted into a TV series, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey. So if those people are on your brain, I think you might enjoy.

Jessica Goodman:

And then I also have a new book coming out this summer. It's called, They'll Never Catch Us. It's currently available for pre-order wherever books are sold. And it is also a young adult thriller about two super competitive sisters who run cross country. And they're both trying to be the best on their team and in the state. And they threaten to kind of lose the number one and two spots when a new girl comes to town. And then soon after she arrives, she also disappears. And everybody in the town begins to suspect that the sisters had something to do with it. So that's where my brain has been for the past couple of months, which is really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is really exciting. What's amazing to me, and I think our listeners will really enjoy hearing about this is while you are doing this, this is actually really a side hustle to your primary job. You have been in a number of different positions at Cosmopolitan magazine. You're currently the op-ed editor. Did I get that right?

Jessica Goodman:

You did. And I'm very impressed that you didn't trip up over the ed editor because I always do when I say it out loud and I have to be like, oh wait, no, this is my job.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is your job now, you are still working there with one book out, another one on the way. So for your money story, I've asked you to kind of talk about how that happened, especially the money-related decisions that you had to make along the way to make this happen. Having a very full-time job at Cosmo. And then on the side, writing this book. It was a lot of choices you had to make I would say. Tell us your money story.

Jessica Goodman:

Definitely. Yeah, so many choices along the way. When I started writing the first book, They Wish They Were Us. And I really started writing it in earnest after having kind of dabbled with it for many years. In earnest, I started working on it in like 2015, 2016. I would say. I didn't get to the point where I thought I could actually sell it and be a professional author until maybe like 2018. And that's when I got connected with my agent and we started working towards being able to sell it. But I did a lot of research into how one becomes an author. I was literally Googling like, how do you publish a book? Like, how do you find an agent? Like what is a book advance? Like all of these kinds of really basic questions that I just had no idea what it was all about.

Jessica Goodman:

And I basically found out that it's really, really, really difficult to publish and sell a book. And that be your sole income or your sole career, like one book basically. And so it was never really an option for me to quit my ... Like I never thought about quitting my jobs in journalism while I was trying to sell the book. So it was always just like, how can I make both of these dreams come true at the same time? And so we sold the book, They Wish They Were Us, in the fall of 2018. And we got an advance, which is what they call the income that you make from selling your book. And publishers usually split it up into a few big chunks. For mine, it was like, I got a chunk of money when I signed the contract, a chunk of money when I turned in the book and then a chunk of money when the book came out. And when, at least when I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. It's like you publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case. And it's certainly like a fantastic thing to have of course, but it's not the kind of financial gains that I originally thought it would be. And I think that a lot of people think about when they think of like someone getting a book advance. Like I said, it was always like a no-brainer that I would keep my job, but I really had to learn how to prioritize both jobs to be able to do them well. So my schedule when I'm being my best self is that I write in the morning before work, usually from seven to nine. And then I do my job from ten to whenever. And then I write on the weekends as well. It's certainly hard at some points, especially at my job at Cosmo, I cover the news, especially like elections and special elections and anything relating to, like having to do with politics. So obviously this past year was hard to balance everything.

Bobbi Rebell:

Were you open with your bosses about these efforts, or was it something you kept private?

Jessica Goodman:

When the book deal actually happened, I went in and told my boss, hey, I just want to give you a heads up that like this happened and it's not going to affect the work that I do here. Like, I really wanted to make sure that they knew that I wasn't about to quit basically, that I was just like, this is just something that I'm doing for myself and my personal dreams. But like, it's not going to affect my work or my productivity here. And I just wanted to give you like a courtesy heads up basically. And everybody was really supportive and they have been really supportive of the book. And so it's been lovely honestly, but I definitely have heard some horror stories at other companies. But I think when you work in a field that's somewhat like adjacent to whatever your side hustle is, it does make it a little bit easier for people to understand why you might be doing something or how it won't interfere with your responsibilities.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you wish you knew in terms of the book business and the financial aspects of it? What do you wish you knew ahead of time? You mentioned that you get the bulk payments and you kind of had this idea as a child that authors become millionaires.

Jessica Goodman:

Yeah, I think something that I definitely wish that I knew was like taxes. Like I think if you're like me and you've really only had a job that you get a salary and benefits from your employer, it's really difficult to self-manage money that comes in chunks, whether you're a freelance writer or you're your own boss and you're not part of like a company. I think it's really difficult to know things like, oh, I have to pay quarterly taxes on this income. Or like, oh, I don't know how much money to put aside from this advanced check that I got, because that advance doesn't reflect the taxes I need to pay on it. So I ended up working with an accountant because I had no idea how to navigate this on my own. And I wanted to make sure that I was doing everything by the book.

Jessica Goodman:

And I wasn't going to get dinged at the end of the fiscal year because I have heard horror stories of people getting, like a $100,000 of their advance, spending it, and then not realizing that they needed to pay however many tens of thousands of dollars of taxes on that. And like, oh my God, what a nightmare. Or even realizing that I had to pay quarterly taxes on like freelance income was the real shock to me. So I got an accountant kind of like late in the game, I would say. And I wish I had got one, like even before the first check came in to like really help me navigate that.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson for our listeners, from this story? What's your advice to people thinking about whether it's writing a novel or any kind of side hustle where they're going to have to hold on to their job?

Jessica Goodman:

I think for me, it was really reevaluating the way that I thought about money. Like I think after having been in jobs where like I got a salary check every other week. That was like, okay, like I know what my monthly expenses are. I know how much my rent is. I know how much my utilities are. Like, I know how much I spend on groceries. Like all that stuff that they tell you. And I knew how to manage that money. Like I knew how much I might be able to save, how much I would need to pay my credit card bill, like all this stuff. But when you get these like big chunks of money, or even just smaller chunks of money from like freelance gigs or whatever, I think it can feel really tempting to just kind of spend it immediately. Even if you're the type of person who is really invested in saving and planning for your future, I think it's hard to conceptualize like how much money you might need for stuff. And especially this year, when I wasn't interested in spending a lot of money at all, based on the kind of times we're in, I splurged on a few things and those things I was thinking about them before we hopped on the call. Those are the things that I really splurged on this year where I turned 30 and I bought myself $80 worth of oysters that were shipped from Cape Cod and an oyster shucker. And that's how I spent my 30th birthday with my partner. We shucked like 50 oysters and save the additional, however many for the next day. And it was such a treat and it was so much fun and something that I'll remember forever. And I bought myself a $90 tie dyed sweatsuit because I am a millennial and on Instagram and it just looked really cozy. And those were like my two big splurges of the year.

Jessica Goodman:

And I know a lot of people, when they get like a book advancer or kind of achieve these really big milestones, they're like, I'm going to buy myself a really expensive piece of jewelry or a fancy handbag, or even like house or whatever. And I mean, I think all of those things are fantastic, but for me, the lesson for me, the lesson here was like, all right, I don't really have anything that I'm ready to splurge on that big right now. I really want to like, save all of this money as much as I can. And those are the things I'm going to splurge on, like oysters and a tie dyed sweatsuit. And knowing that like my big splurge might come later. Like I am saving up to buy a house with my partner. And I think that like my book advance will of course go towards that.

Jessica Goodman:

But realizing that like, I didn't need to spend it all right away I think was a huge revelation, especially because so many people were like, what are you going to treat yourself to? Like your book just came out, like, what are you going to do to mark the occasion? And I didn't really do that much because it just didn't feel right for me. Those were my splurges.

Bobbi Rebell:

I love it. I love the idea of oysters. So tell us your everyday money tip.

Jessica Goodman:

Oh yes. Okay. So this is one that I really got to be obsessed with during the pandemic. Like I am not the type of person that should or would traditionally buy in bulk. Like I live with one other person. We live in a one bedroom apartment. It's very small. We don't have a lot of storage space, but this year I became the kind of person that buys in bulk. Obviously, so many people are doing this during the pandemic, but I don't think I really realized how much you actually save when you buy in bulk and you know what you're going to use in those bulk quantities. And I think the pandemic has really shown people like what they actually use and what is actually important to them. And so for us, like there were a few things that really changed the way I thought about this. One was I started doing like subscribe and save Amazon paper towels and toilet paper. And actually I had done this pre run out of toilet paper in like March moment. So I pat myself on the back for knowing that would be a thing.

Jessica Goodman:

But I think I did the math recently. And it was like if I were to buy a few rolls every time I went to the grocery store, I would spend nearly twice the amount that I do just doing subscribe and save and having them shipped directly to my house. And even though they just sit in boxes in like a corner of our apartment. Because again, small one bedroom apartment, I think it's like totally worth it for us. And the other way that I found this to be really useful was we started buying our wine in cases, which a year ago I would have said like, are you okay? Like what's going on here?

Jessica Goodman:

But my local wine shop, they started offering a 15% discount if you bought a case of wine. And so we basically did the math and we were like, well, we'd be losing money if we didn't do this. And we don't go through them that quickly. I mean, it's no brainer how much money you save. We started looking for ways that you could buy in bulk and save like that. Like the fancy coffee shop near us. If you buy beans in bulk, it's like the same thing. And all these companies now do like subscribe and save membership things, like there's so many coffee ones where like every week they'll send you a bag of beans or whatever. And I think like looking for those has really been super helpful for us and certainly cut down on how we spend.

Jessica Goodman:

The other thing about like this buying in bulk grocery shopping thing is I heard this tip from Carla Lalli Music who used to work at Bon Appetit and now is she's like a chef home cook person on Instagram and has like a fantastic cookbook. But her big tip was always like, if you're ordering groceries, like order all the heavy stuff that's going to be delivered to your apartment. So you don't have to carry stuff, especially in an apartment. And that has been so helpful to me too, where it's like, every time I do like a big shop online or Instacart or Whole Foods or whatever, I get like 10 cans of beans, because like, I don't want to carry that. Or like four jugs of olive oil or like four twelve packs of seltzer because yes, you're buying in bulk. And sometimes you can get discounts that way, but also like who wants to carry that stuff home?

Bobbi Rebell:

Definitely good to always make your life easier. Especially if you are paying those fees to have it delivered. You want to get the most out of that delivery fee. Jessica, thank you so much for being with us, tell us where people can find out more about you. We know your books are available everywhere. We don't know when is the TV series coming.

Jessica Goodman:

TBD on the TV series, but you can stay up to date with all of that info on my Instagram, which is @JessicaGoodman or Twitter @JessGood. And I also have a website goodmanjessica.com. Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. My friends let's do this. Financial Grownup tip number one, Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. And by the way, if you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.Financial Grownup tip number two, get a system going and understand that you might miss things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Bobbi Rebell:

I had so much fun talking with Jessica and her book was really, really a page turner. As I mentioned, it is a murder mystery. And for the record, I really was totally fooled. I didn't see the twists and turns coming. One thing that I've really loved during our forced stayed home time during this pandemic has been catching up on reading fiction and really getting lost in books. We're going to be giving away a few signed copies of Jessica's book to that end so please make sure you are on the Grownup list ASAP so you don't miss that. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you can sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell:

Now while you are there, please check out my big project that I have been working on. I am so excited to see what you guys think. It is the new Grownup Gear Shop. It's a passion project of mine, and I hope you guys will all support it. Podcasts listeners can get 10% off if you use the code “Jessica” within one week of this episode dropping. So just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you'll see the word shop, click on there. Check it out. I hope you guys like it. Big thanks to author Jessica Goodman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Author Barbara Huson joins the Financial Grownup podcast to share her research and insights on a new way to approach learning about money and wealth, as well as preview her latest book Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success

Get Barbara’s new book, Rewire for Wealth here.

Get all of Barbara’s books along with other books by Financial Grownups here.

Barbara’s Steps to Rewire Your Brain for Wealth

Step #1 -

Start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. Separate yourself from the thought.

Step #2-

The second step is reframing your negative thoughts to see it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought.

Step #3-

The third step is you respond differently. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Episode Links:

• Barbara’s website - https://www.barbara-huson.com

Follow Barbara!

• Instagram - @thebarbarahuson

• Twitter - @thebarbarahuson

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbarahuson/

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT-

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. Now, we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online, and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So, if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power. I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it, and I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have. Go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Three ways to rewire your brain for financial success with Rewire for Wealth author Barbara Huson. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. You know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey, everyone. Hope you guys are well despite all the chaos going on in the world. It's pretty hard to just keep functioning in daily life, but that's what a lot of us have to kind of find a way to keep doing. I've been continuing to work on my book, tentatively called Launching Financial Grownups, and I'm really taking some time to focus, to refocus, I should say, more on this podcast, which I love doing this podcast for you guys. Some of you know I made a big decision coming into this new year to take a sabbatical from my other podcast, Money with Friends with Joe Saul-Sehy. There was literally no way I was going to get my book done anywhere near the spring deadline, so I needed a jolt and this is what I had to do.

Bobbi Rebell:

Coming into the new year, I think a lot of us can benefit from a jolt and just kind of waking up and seeing things maybe a little differently. We've been dealing with a lot of the same old, same old. A lot of us have gotten into ruts, not surprising given everything going on, but look, we've been quarantining and sometimes this can be a good time for a change in mindset, even though yeah, the new year is sort of an artificial way of marking it. But I think there's something about coming into a new year that can motivate us to change our mindset. So on that note, this week's guest is really perfect for all of that. You guys that want to join me in changing your mindset and getting remotivated, Barbara Huson is an author. She has written seven books. The best one is probably, the one that's really best-known, I should say, is Prince Charming is Not Coming. By the way, it was written not under her current married name, it was written under Barbara Stanny.

Bobbi Rebell:

She now is coming out with her number eight book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. When I first heard the title, I was a bit skeptical, but her team sent me an advanced copy, and not too far into it I was on board. That's why I'm so excited that she made the time to come on the podcast and talk about the themes in the book and how we can all integrate them into our lives. And by the way, even though the book is technically aimed at women, I really believe these strategies are truly for any gender. Before I roll the interview, I'm doing big things this year that I want to make sure to keep you guys informed about, because I'm hoping they can really help you reach a lot of your grownup goals this year.

Bobbi Rebell:

The first thing is I'm going to really be upping the ante with The Grownup List. It's been coming out... well, I've been trying to do it once a month. That hasn't really happened, so we're going to, first of all, try to have it actually come out once a month. We're going to have some big giveaways that I'm really excited about, starting with the one that's going to come out soon in January. So please get on the list. It is free. You just go to my website, BobbiRebell.com to sign up. Please also follow me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1. If you go there, just send me a DM just to say hi so I know that you're there and you've heard this on the podcast. And by the way, apologies in this interview for any audio glitches. Barbara was coming to us from an area with really weak signals, wifi, whatever you want to call it. So the audio is not ideal, but the interview is well worth it. Here is Barbara Huson.

Bobbi Rebell:

Barbara Huson, welcome to Financial Grownup. We're so glad to have you here and we're so excited to hear more about your new book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. Welcome.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you, and thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Before we get into that, I want people to know a little bit about your background, because it is one of a kind. You come from a very unique perspective in your approach to wealth and basically how we should be thinking about it.

Barbara Huson:

I grew up in a wealthy family. My father was the R of H&R Block. The only advice he ever gave me about money was, "Don't worry," which I thought was great advice. I didn't understand money. I just wanted to spend it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't want to worry about money. I would love to just spend it. Sounds good to me, Barbara.

Barbara Huson:

Yeah. It sounded great to me until I found out very early in my marriage that my husband, who was a stockbroker, was a compulsive gambler. Over the course of our marriage, he lost a fortune of my inheritance. Here's the insane part, I continued to let him manage the money because that's how terrified and intimidated I was by anything to do with money. After our divorce, I decided I didn't want to deal with money, it's not my thing. Well, I have learned that if you don't deal with your money, your money will deal with you. Then the next year, I got tax bills for over a million dollars for back taxes my ex didn't pay for illegal deals he got us in. My signature was on everything. I hired lawyers, I got the tax bill down. I sold what was left in my trust. I was left with nothing. I had a few properties. I had a few properties…and so if I lived frugally, I'd be fine. I had three daughters. I was not going to raise them on the street. I was determined to get smart.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That's what we call a financial grownup moment, is having your husband gamble away your fortune and having to figure it out with young children. For sure. So you have a lot to teach us. I know that from that moment, you went on this mission. For years, you've really dedicated your life to educating women, to coaching women about wealth. You now have seven books out. Your eighth one is coming out and now you're here talking to us, which I'm so grateful for. You brought us three tips to rewire your brain for financial success. First, talk a little bit before we get to that about the whole concept of that, because this is a whole different way to think about money, starting with how our brains work.

Barbara Huson:

About six years ago, I stumbled on an article about neuroscience. If I could integrate neuroscience, the principles of neuroscience, of rewiring your brain into the work that I was doing with finances, helping women become financially empowered, that can expedite the learning curve and get them past the resistance in a very short time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us an overview of the three tips, and then we can talk about what each one is.

Barbara Huson:

So the three steps are simply recognize, reframe and respond differently. Recognize, reframe, and respond differently. I'll explain these steps in a minute, but you must do these over and over and over and over again, because the key to rewiring your brain, to changing the habits, is repetition. So the first step, recognize. What that means is you start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Start observing them. "Oh, I'm having a thought about not having enough. Oh, I'm having a thought about I have to have those shoes. I have to have that designer handbag," or whatever. Or, "I'm not enough." But you start observing, and you observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. "Oh, isn't that interesting? I'm having a thought," because by doing that, you separate yourself from the thought.

Barbara Huson:

The second step is taking that thought, "There's never enough," and reframing it, seeing it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought, "Oh, there's enough. There's enough," or maybe it's, "oh, here's an opportunity to rewire that thought." The third step is you respond differently. You [inaudible 00:09:24] do. What you do want to do, which doesn't feel right, which doesn't come naturally. In that case, there's never enough and you could go into fear and not want to open your bills and not want to look at your checkbook. Therefore, the thing to do is open at least one bill or start looking at your checkbook. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you say to people that maybe have people around them that are counter-effective? I don't know if that's quite the right word. They're not supportive of this rewiring idea. That are filling people with the wrong kinds of thoughts. How do you do that? Especially, we're in quarantine, sometimes we don't have much choice with who we're with.

Barbara Huson:

It's really, really important that you, at least while you are rewiring, while you want to shift from being one way to being another way, it's really important to surround yourself with people who are supporting you and not trying to rain on your parade. And that may mean if your husband is being a naysayer, simply not listening, walking out of the room. But it's really important, it's a really good point you made, because you become who you're with. There is a tendency to become who you're with. It's very important to distance yourself emotionally, if not physically, from the people who are not there supporting you.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is such good advice. Tell us more about... The book is coming out in January. Tell us more about where people can find out more about the book and about you and be in touch with you.

Barbara Huson:

Well, you can go to my website, which is Barbara-Huson, H-U-S-O-N, .com. Barbara-Huson.com. The book is actually for presale now. I know it's on Amazon and Barnes & Noble, but yes, you can come to my website. There's just lots of stuff on there, and I have wonderful offerings on there. I invite anyone to come.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, thank you so much for joining us. I love the book. In fact, I endorsed it, so that's truly something that I don't do very often, but this book really struck me as something very important that we should all be embracing in the way that we approach money. I think a lot of people can benefit from this different way of thinking about wealth and our money. So thank you so much for being here and thank you so much for this newest book.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, are you guys ready to rewire for wealth? Let me know how you like the book and what other authors you'd like for me to invite on the Financial Grownup podcast. We actually have a lot of big author interviews coming up this winter, and most of them are going to be donating books to be given away to those of you on The Grownup List. We're also giving away branded merchandise as a sneak peek to what we're going to be fully launching a little bit later on, probably early spring. And you can enter and win only if you are on The Grownup List. Super easy to join. Go to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and just sign up. See you guys there. Big thanks, of course, to Barbara Huson, for helping us rewire for wealth and be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

 

Clever Girl Finance’s Bola Sokunbi is famous for saving $100k on a $54k salary in about 3 years. But then she started dropping $3,000 on a massive collection of luxury handbags, most of which she never even used. 

In Bola’s money story you will learn:

-How she saved more than $100,000 on a salary of just $54,000 in three and a half years

-The side hustle that helped her reach that goal

-How after she reached that goal, she made a very unexpected spending splurge

-The fascinating reason, looking back, that she went down that path and kept going!

-The moment she woke up and realized she had to make a change

-Exactly what she did to get back on track and make a profit in the process

-The regret she had despite making money on her debacle

-Why she thinks so much about Amazon stock

In Bola’s money lesson you will learn:

-Why keeping her handbags in top condition was the key in getting a solid return when she went to sell them

-Other ways to maintain the value of resale able luxury goods like handbags

-Her take on investing in goods like handbags compared to the stock market and corporations

In Bola’s money tip you will learn:

-Ways to get luxury goods like handbags for less money without compromising quality

-Bola’s favorite pre-owned goods resources

-How friends can trade or sell handbags to each other

-Bola’s new strategy for buying expensive handbags

In my take you will learn:

-Why I compare Bola’s handbag venture to winning the lottery

-The difference between saving money and building wealth

-How to sell luxury goods like handbags, as well as other things you can sell, like baby strollers

-Why I do not promote buying fake goods as a cheaper option

Episode links

Bola’s website: CleverGirlFinance.com

Bola’s podcast: Clever Girls Know

Follow Bola!

Twitter Clever Girl Finance

Instagram Clever Girl Finance

Facebook Clever Girl Finance

LinkedIn Bola Sokunbi

 

Also mentioned in the show:

Vestiare Collective

Fashionphile

Rent the Runway

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Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
Support for Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell and the following message come from TransferWise, the cheaper way to send money internationally. TransferWise takes a machete to the hefty fees that come with sending money abroad. Test it out for free at transferwise.com/podcast or download the app.

Bola Sokumbi:
I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather. Like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. You know what, being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. This is one of those, "She did not do that," episodes. My guest was a champ at saving money on a very low income, but once she had that money, things took in unexpected turn and then there was yet another unexpected twist to the story. Bola Sokumbi is a certified financial education instructor and the force behind the very popular, Clever Girl Finance, a website and podcast that empowers and educates women to make the best financial decisions for them. Here is Bola Sokumbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Bola Sokumbi, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am such a fan of yours. First of all, in addition to being a money expert, you are the force behind Clever Girl Finance, which is a website and a podcast. It started after you. I don't even know how you did this. You saved $100,000 in three and a half years on a salary of, I want to say, about $50,000?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I was making $54,000 before taxes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Give us just the high level. How you did that.

Bola Sokumbi:
I basically got lean and mean with, probably, my finances. I contributed to my retirement fund from my employer because I knew they were offering a match and that was a way for me to get some free money. I kept my expenses super low. I avoided my friends and stayed home. I wasn't going out to eat very much. I wasn't buying alcohol. I was the-

Bobbi Rebell:
Temporarily, right?

Bola Sokumbi:
Temporarily.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Bola Sokumbi:
I was in a steady ramen noodles and coke diet. I focused on saving 40 to 50% of my paycheck and anything extra.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I save my tax returns, my bonuses. I try to save as much as possible. I also started a side hustle. I started a wedding photography business, which really helped to increase the amount of money I was bringing in. That helped contribute to me being able to save that amount of money. Finally, I avoided credit cards as best I could. I, instead, used a charge card that require me to pay my balance in full every month. That kept me really mindful about my spending, but overall, it was really just setting the intention that I wanted to save and I wanted to challenge myself to save six figures. I put my mind to it. I gone to that focus and three and a half years later, I was able to save that $100,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
So smart. In full details, if anyone wants, go to Clever Girl Finance. I want to talk about your money story that you brought because Bola, this is like an incredible story given what you just said.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here you are. You got $100,000. You're hustling with a side hustle. You're eating ramen noodles. You're doing everything intentionally, maxing out your retirement account to get the max. What do you do? You start buying $3,000 handbags. Tell us what, what.

Bola Sokumbi:
Holla.

Bobbi Rebell:
What?

Bola Sokumbi:
Let me break it down. Basically, I got to this point where I had saved a ton of money. I had a lot of money in the bank. Actually, at the end of the four years, I had about $150,000 saved. I was making more money. I had my business. I gone raising at my job. I was earning, now, well over six figures at this point. I was like "Wow, I have all this money. I maxed out my retirement savings. I'm still meeting my savings obligations. I just have to treat myself." I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather, like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I personally would've bought a pint of Haagen-Dazs if I wanted to treat myself but okay. $3,000 handbags.

Bola Sokumbi:
I went all the way, yes. I got my first designer handbag like "Oh my God, this is amazing. It's beautiful. I bought this in cash. I love it."

Bobbi Rebell:
What was it? Describe it.

Bola Sokumbi:
It was a Channel Jumbo in black caviar leather with gold hardware, classic, beautiful.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. I wouldn't know.

Bola Sokumbi:
I got the one. Should've been enough, but then I was like well, few months later, I have all the spare money. I'm still saving. I didn't know what to do. I want to invest, but I don't need to invest that much. I'm going to buy another designer handbag. I got to the point where I was buying several handbags for maybe three or four years. To me, it was fine because I was still saving. I was still meeting my obligation.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much do you think you spent in total, Bola, on the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh my goodness. I don't know. If we were to have an Instagram competition on who could grab their handbags steady for the next 30 to 60 days, I would win, every time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait. Wait. You're going to have a different handbag every day for 30 to 60 days?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah, I could. Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Bola Sokumbi:
I could've. I have a lot of handbags. I had them in different colors-

Bobbi Rebell:
Were they just sitting in the closet? Were you taking them to work? What was going on with the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
That's the sucky part. I maybe use like two or three. Well, I was exaggerated. I didn't have 60. Exaggerating. About a month. Let's say, a month. I didn't really use them. That was a disappointing factor. I'm one of those people that believe that if there's something that you like and it's something that you're going to use, go for it as long as you plan it out financial, but I wasn't using them. They did not make financial sense for me. I was using like one or two of them, and then maybe the others, I would look at or wear to a baby shower for 25 minutes and it goes right back into the closet. It did not make any financial sense. Fortunately, for me, at the time that I purchase them, for those of you who are into handbags, knew that there have been a flurry of price increases especially with the higher end luxury brands.

Bola Sokumbi:
At the time I bought the handbags, I bought them before the crazy price increases started. I got to a point where I was like "Okay, this doesn't make any sense." I will look in my closet and all I would see would be dollar bills stacked up. My husband is like "You need to let these go. You don't even use them. It doesn't make sense. You feel so guilty about having them because you're not using them." I took it upon myself to sell almost every one of them. I still have a few. The ones I use. It was really hard to sell them because I felt like I was selling my children. It's crazy. When I think about it, it's ridiculous, but I sold them. Luckily, for me, because of the price increases, I was able to sell them for a lot more than I purchase. That very first Channel handbag, the black jumbo I just described with caviar hardware, I paid $2,900 for it and I sold it for $5,500.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness. Only you, Bola, would actually turn a cringeworthy shopping habit into a positive investment experience.

Bola Sokumbi:
However, Bobbi, to the point you asked me before we started recording was, I made money but when I think about it, I really didn't make that much money because one of the things that trigger me to start selling those handbags was Amazon stock. I realized that if I had spent all that money I spent on those handbags on Amazon Stock, I would've had times 100 of what I had spent on handbags. Not just doubling my money. I would've like times 100 it, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
If you had actually bought Amazon Stock, but truthfully, how much do you think ... do you think you spent $90,000 on handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh, I don't know. Over a three to four year period, I spent a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. You bought 30 handbags at $3,000 each.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I had about 30. They were not all the same price.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Bola Sokumbi:
They were not all $3,000 handbags.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was the most expensive one?

Bola Sokumbi:
The Channel handbags I had. They were about in the $3,000, $3,500 range at that time. Now, they're not anymore. They're about 6 to $7,000 now.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I don't own any more handbags by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson from this beyond the fact that there was a time in life when investing in handbag was actually an appreciable asset? Still, they probably know. I don't know the market, but anyway, beyond the fact that it actually turned on to be a good investment.

Bola Sokumbi:
I wouldn't even describe as an appreciable handbag because for me, it was just purely for the fact that I was not using them. No one is going to pay you top dollar for a handbag that has been worn and beat up. If you're buying something, I believe that you should be using it. Lesson for this is cost per wear. You can have 100 Channel handbags if you want to have them and if you can afford them and you're paying for them in cash and it's not taking off your financial goals, but what is your cost per wear. How often are you using them? Are you getting your money's worth? If you buy a handbag for $3,000 and you wear it once, then that one time you wore it cost you $3,000 and that makes no sense. If you buy this handbag and you wear it 3,000 times over four years, then that handbag cost you $1 or maybe it comes down to cents and pennies and that starts to make more sense because as opposed to buying $25 handbags over that three-year period and use that one handbag over that time and you get your cost per wear.

Bola Sokumbi:
To me, cost per wear is really important. That's how I plan out my wardrobe. I still buy fancy things, but I have to be using them. I have to get my cost per wear down to pennies for it to make sense. I know when I see something if I'm going to use it or not. Understand your cost per wear. People may think, "Oh, buying handbags is crazy," but people spend their money on different things. For me, it was the handbag thing. Some people spend their money on electronics, on cars, on things that they don't necessarily use like having a second car in your garage that you drive on Saturday is not good to drive per wear.

Bobbi Rebell:
The handbags make you feel good.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I would pick a handbag over a lot of things. That was me. That was a lesson I learned. I put the money right back into my investment accounts. I was better for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's stick with the handbag thing. What is your money tip, your everyday money tip for everyone?

Bola Sokumbi:
I would say that if you are a handbag girl like me, no shay, no judgment, find ways to get the handbags that you like at a cheaper cost or without putting out so much money. For instance, Bobbi, you and I talked about Rent the Runway. You really like that. If you want to actually own them, you can think about getting them preowned from sties like Fashion File or Vestiaire Collective. There's a bunch of different ones that are reputable that sell authentic products or even local consignment stores in New York. There's a ton of them. Or buying them off of friends who are trying to let go of their handbags or trying to recycle their wardrobe. Those are great ways that you can get luxury at a lower cost. You can also wait until some of these handbags go into the sale and purchase them that way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because a lot of them are really classic.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yes. It's all about buying something that you know you're going to use for a long time. I tend to avoid any trend pieces because I don't want to be out of fashion next year after spending all this money on it. I buy bags that I can carry forever. That's what I do. Every purchase I make right now, I carry that bag to shreds, basically.

Bobbi Rebell:
Definitely. Get that cost per wear down. Where can people find you and learn more about Clever Girl Finance?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. You can find me on my website at clevergirlfinance.com, on Instagram at Clever Girl Finance, on Facebook, Clever Girl Finance. I also have a podcast called, Clever Girls Know. You can search for it on iTunes, Stitcher, Sound Cloud. You'll find it there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think everyone should definitely check all of that out. I am a big fan. Thank you so much, Bola.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. Except for the fact that she was ironically able to sell the handbags at a profit, this whole thing reminds me of what happens when people inherit a ton of money or they win the lottery and then they just don't know what to do, so they go shopping. Financial Grownup tip number one, Bola was great at accumulating money but she was selling herself short when it came to building wealth. She was meeting her goals in terms of saving and investing and all that, but that doesn't mean she couldn't move the goal post given the resource that she had and make even more ambitious goals. Not a problem to buy a bag that you can afford, but she wasn't even using most of them. Bola is very specific that, well, they ironically went up in value if she had invested the money. In her case, she talks about Amazon Stock, she would've made a lot more money. Of course, you could lose money in the stock market. There's no guarantee of that. It's just something to consider.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two, if you do buy luxury goods and you aren't using them, it is easier than ever to sell them, so many resources online. You may not make as big a profit as Bola did, you may lose money but you're still going to get some cash. I have sold some bags on the real wheel. I've been happy to have the cash even though it went for less than I paid. You can also buy slightly used bags there at a discount if you want them. As I've said before, you can rent them at Rent the Runway or other similar websites. I will leave some links in the show notes for you guys. Given these resources, I would also urge you to stay away from the fakes. It undermines the economy and the business of the companies that produce the real thing. Don't buy fake bags. Also, it is illegal.

Bobbi Rebell:
We want you to be a financial grownup. Send us an email to info@financialgrownup.com if you want to be considered for one of our monthly listener episodes. Just tell us what the money story is that you want to share and your everyday money tip. If you have not already, please rate and review the podcast on iTunes, Apple Podcast. That helps others discover us and grow the community. It is truly appreciated. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any upcoming episodes and follow me at Bobbi Rebell on Twitter @ bobbirebell1 on Instagram and on Facebook, I am at Bobbi Rebell. Bola is the best. I am so appreciative that she was brave enough to get really candid. She definitely got us all one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media Production.

Journalist and author Nicole Lapin shares a hilarious story of how a lack of preparation almost led to total humiliation.  Plus why procrastination can be a good thing for financial grownups.

Nicole’s Money Story:

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. I started as a business reporter on the floor of the Chicago Merc when I was 18 years old, and when I was asked if I knew anything about money news or business news, I totally lied, and I faked it till I made it. And then I had to become real, because I found that money is just a language like anything else, and I could not speak that language. So I was going to interview the founders of a tech company at the time and my boss, who was awesome, said to me as I ran out the door, and I would always carry like a big diaper bag, almost combat ready with all sorts of stuff, like a poncho just in case, from my time in actual general news, I didn't know what would happen. I was combat ready. And he was like, "Do you have the P&L?" You know, a lot of people call me NL or Lapin for short.

Nicole Lapin:
And I was like, "No dude, I'm good. I don't need to pee." And I get to the interview and the PR person was like, "Do you have the P&L?" And I'm like, okay, think, Lapin, think. She is not asking you if you need to pee, this must be a money term. I sit down with the founders, and they're like, our profits, as you can see from our P&L, you know, blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, okay, okay, has to do with profits, think, think, think. Profits. L, losses. And I kept saying PnL, like Kibbles 'n Bits, and I didn't even know it was an and. Like, I just was so clueless, and that was a great example of how I had to think about this right on the spot and definitely was not prepared.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, so what happened? How did this play out? Did you have an aha moment in the middle of the interview?

Nicole Lapin:
I had the aha moment, and I knew enough that it had to do with their balance sheet, and so I could sort of dance around it and get through the interview. Then after that I wrote down PnL, like N for Nicole, and then it took me another hot minute to realize there was an and sign. It was like profits and losses.

Bobbi Rebell:
At the time, did you confess to anyone? Did you tell your boss, "I didn't know what that meant," or did you just keep going?

Nicole Lapin:
No, no, no, no, no. I just had super intense imposter syndrome, and I just thought everyone was going to figure out that I didn't know what I was talking about, and I would have never, ever admitted at the time that I couldn't speak this language. I only now can talk about this, very gladly in hindsight. I love making fun of myself with the most embarrassing money stories, but no, definitely not at the time.

“Money is an intimidating language. It’s ok if you can’t speak the language. Just ask what something means.”

Nicole’s Money Lesson:

Nicole Lapin:
I think realizing that money is an intimidating language. We just don't have a Rosetta Stone for this growing up. And it's okay if you can't speak the language. Just ask what something means. I've talked to COs of major publicly traded companies who have asked me like what does [inaudible 00:06:00] mean, for example, like right before we went on the air, and I was like, "Dude, it's just the bond buyback program." Like, no big deal. And they were like, "Yeah, I just didn't know the terminology." And so there's lots of terminology that sounds confusing. If you went to China and you didn't speak Chinese, you'd be confused. If you went to Wall Street and you didn't speak the language of money, you would be confused, too.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I love that you're saying that, because so many of us kind of nod and pretend we understand something and maybe make decisions that we shouldn't make, because we don't want to admit that we don't get it.

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah, totally. And you're definitely not alone. I think a lot of people smile and nod and don't join basic money conversations because they're too intimidated and too scared to admit that they don't know what's going on.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And by the way, your website and your books are a tremendous resource for understanding a lot of this stuff.

“I aim for progress and not perfection. If I have more good days than bad days then I am totally winning.”

Nicole’s Money Tip:

Nicole Lapin:
I like to rethink conventional financial wisdom, conventional business wisdom. And yes, you're right. I rewrite financial dictionaries and business dictionaries. I did it in the back of Rich (beep) and Boss (beep). This is maybe why I'm single. But at the end of every chapter in every book, I rethink conventional wisdom to hopefully help you think for yourself. And procrastination is often used as a bad word. It's used as something that you should avoid, but I actually think that you can not fully procrastinate, because it's so cathartic to cross out all the things on your to-do list, like, here we go, dry cleaning, you know, pick up this, blah blah blah blah blah. And actually, those things might not move you towards your goals. So if you remind yourself of what you're working toward and what you have to do and almost connect the dots, I came up with a Super Woman journal that's a companion journal along with Becoming Super Woman to help you do that throughout the day, and I create this point system that's almost like a weight loss sort of system that allows you to give yourself points for things you're focusing on and forgive yourself first if you're not focusing on just the then and there. Because I think we can have it all. We just can't do it all, especially not at the same time.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And another thing that I love about the book is you have these really compelling quotes. For example, related to what we were just talking about, you have a quote from Mark Twain, "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow," which makes a lot of sense when you really think about the reasoning behind it.

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. If you have to pick up your dry cleaning or something, and you need to get something done that will move you toward making your side hustle your full time hustle, I would do that and then get your dry cleaning, unless you really have like nothing, nothing to wear. I would do that later on.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing in the book that I love is that you have not just a to-do list, but a have done list.

Nicole Lapin:
Yes. Because, you know, we often get into this mode of we've just not accomplished anything, and we're not doing anything compared to everybody else on Instagram. And I think comparison is the thief of joy, and also we tend to compare ourselves to the best version of each aspect of our lives. So we compare our fitness regime to a fitness blogger who works out five hours a day, or our mommy life to that of a mommy YouTuber who bakes bread for her kids and homeschools them. That's not realistic. And so if we get into that cycle and we don't have the definition of what success is to us, we often feel inadequate. We shouldn't.

Bobbi Rebell:
No, we should not feel inadequate. But one thing that you also work through in the book is you have specific plans for people to organize and get towards those goals in a realistic way, not in a way where you're trying to keep up with somebody, like you were just talking about.

“Comparison is the thief of joy”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

We didn't get to this in the interview, but a lot of Nicole's advice focuses on productivity and avoiding distraction and all the stress that that causes, and of course spending time when you didn't mean to on things. For example, she recommends a browser extension called unroll.me. It's free, and I am now using it. I will leave a link in the show notes. You can always find the show notes by going to bobbirebell.com and then going to the Financial Grownup podcast area. There's also a handy search box in the upper right hand corner, where you can always just type in the guest name or any keyword, but definitely check out unroll.me.

Financial grownup tip number two:

Another one from Nicole's book was to keep emails to five sentences. If it has to be longer than five sentences, then it deserves a phone call. I'm going to start trying that in my workflow. We'll see how it goes, but if you do it, too, let me know how it goes.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Nicole’s website - nicolelapin.com

• Nicole’s book Becoming Super Woman

Follow Nicole!

• Instagram - @nicolelapin

• Facebook - @NicoleLapin

• Twitter - @NicoleLapin

• YouTube - @NicoleLapin

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Fran Hauser became a financial grownup very young, helping her immigrant parents build their businesses by doing the books and serving as a liaison to clients as early as 1st grade. The author of “The Myth of the Nice Girl, Achieving a Career You Love Without Becoming a Person You Hate” now applies those early life lessons to her search for  startup investment opportunities.   

 

Fran’s money story:

Fran Hauser:
Yes. So my parents are Italian immigrants who moved to Mount Kisco, as you said, and like many immigrants it took a lot of courage to make this move. They were uneducated, they didn't speak the language, and they were moving to a place that was completely foreign to them. What each of my parents did have though, was a skill. So my father was a stonemason, my mother was really good at sewing, so they both started small businesses. My dad a stonemeasonry business, and my mom opened up a tailoring shop with her best friend. Being the oldest of four, they needed my help, especially when it came to communication. So when I was in first grade I was preparing all of my dad's invoices. One memory that I have is I could only add at that point in time, I couldn't multiply yet, so my aunt actually created a sales tax chart for me, so that if the monthly maintenance was $300, I could see exactly what the sales tax was, and then just add the two numbers together.

Fran Hauser:
So that was first grade, and then even in middle school I was helping my mother with marketing. So helping her come up with a logo, and getting different marketing and sales materials printed. So I got exposed to business at a very young age, and even understanding things like revenue, and expense, cashflow, you know seeing that when more cash comes in than goes out, decisions that need to be made around what to do with that extra money. It was really interested watching my dad because he took some calculated risks and invested in both commercial and residential real estate, which proved to be fruitful. I would say at a very, very, very young age I played this role of bookkeeper/marketer/general manager.

Fran Hauser:
Another vivid memory I have that I'll just share with you is when my father was asked to go look at a job, a potential client, and give them an estimate, he wasn't able to understand the directions to actually get to the house. So I would listen in on another phone and write down the directions, and then I would go in the car with him and we would actually drive to the residence together, and then I would get out and I would basically be the translator for him. So that was my childhood, pretty unconventional.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Very unconventional. How did you assume this role? Were there specific deliberate conversations, or did it just evolve organically as you grew up in the household?

Fran Hauser:
It really evolved organically, because I was the oldest. Really, these things just fell on me. It made sense, if something was broken, even in the house, and needed to be repaired, I would be the one to call the plumber or the contractor, and at the time it felt really hard. It was frustrating, for sure, at times because I just felt so different from all of my "American" friends, who were doing sleepovers and play dates, and I had so much more responsibility. Obviously, looking back, it was actually such an incredible experience, because I learned so much, not just about business but also about risk taking. Watching my parents, who had so much going against them, they were at such a disadvantage, but they were still able to take these risks. Whether it was building these businesses, or investing in real estate, and if you look at my career, I've taken many risks in my career. I've reinvented myself several times. I left Coca-Cola and the late nineties to go to an early stage internet company, Movie Phone. Or five years ago, I left a really comfortable job at Time Inc. to move into startup investing.

Fran Hauser:
So I haven't been afraid to take risks, and I think a lot of that comes from seeing how disadvantaged my parents were, and feeling like if they could take risks, I should be able to.

Bobbi Rebell:
I wanted to ask you, so you mentioned, and I was going to bring this up, that you now are a startup investor. How did this background in business and understanding risks, and understanding strategy and marketing, and even just the basic economics of business, how does that inform your approach as an investor now?

Fran Hauser:
So I think in a lot of ways. For starters, when I'm evaluating the entrepreneurs I'm looking at them and I'm saying, "Do they have the capacity to take risks? Will they jump in with both feet?" And I'm also looking at what kind of mindset do they have? Are they optimistic? I always felt like my parents approached every single venture with such optimism, and with an abundance mindset, and treating people kindly and with respect. So those are things that I really look for in an entrepreneur, and then the other side of it is the brass tactics operational side, which is I feel like I'm really good at looking at financials and understanding what the risks are, really getting nitpicky when it comes to the assumptions that are being used. So I feel like I can look at a PnL pretty quickly, and projected cashflows, and all that good stuff, and I'm just co comfortable. I'm so comfortable with numbers, and I'm so comfortable with looking at forecasts and really trying to make sense of it, and also understanding is there a there there?

Fran Hauser:
The other part too, I would say, is just understanding markets, understanding consumers. I think that also comes from just having spent so much time with my parents clients. So it's impacted me as an investor in so many different ways.

Fran’s Money Lesson:

I would say the lesson is to not be afraid to take risks, and when you do so, really approach it with a mindset of abundance and optimism, and don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to go all in and to jump in with both feet, and then also the last thing I would say, which really ties back to the book, is to treat people with kindness and respect, because I think you look at my parents who barely spoke a word of english, and they were still able to communicate through a lot of nonverbal cues, and a lot of that had to do with being charming, and being kind, and that will take you far.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, because the book is really all about being nice, but in a strategic and smart way.

Fran Hauser:
Yes, being nice in a way where you're not a pushover, and you're not veering into people pleasing territory. It's really about how you can be both nice and strong. Those two things are not mutually exclusive, and that you bring both of those into virtually any situation at work.

Fran’s Everyday Money Tip:

Yeah, I love this. So what we do in my house is, instead of a normal piggy bank, we collect coins in a five gallon water jug. The kids love it because it's so much bigger than a piggy bank, and it's clear, so you can see the progress. The last time we cashed it in the coins were worth $4000, and it took us several years to fill it up, but it's just a really fun way to teach your kids about saving and about goals.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where do you cash it in, what's that experience like? Is it one of the machines, or do you bring it to a bank?

Fran Hauser:
It's actually hysterical because it's so heavy, so what you have to do is we put duct tape over the top of it to close it, and then we literally roll it-

Financial Grownup tip number one

one thing that Fran talks about in The Myth of the Nice Girl is the importance of how things are presented, the tone that you use in your voice. So you can be firm, and not be a pushover, and still be nice. Think about the way that you say things.


Financial Grownup tip number two

don't say sorry so much. Try replacing it with "Thank you." Fran points out that many women apologize of things that not only were not their fault, but also they aren't really sorry about. For example, not being able to attend an event. She would often apologize for declining an invitation, instead, she advises to simply say, "Thank you for the invitation." And say that you will not be able to attend.

Episode Links:

• Fran’s website - Franhauser.com

• Fran’s book - The Myth of the Nice Girl

 

Follow Fran!

• instagram - @fran_hauser

• twitter - @fran_hauser

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Optometrist Jen Tsai was in the process of launching her solo practice when the pandemic hit. She shares how she kept her cool and managed to overcome financing and construction challenges, as well as build a retail practice while the world was in turmoil. 

Jennifer’s Money Story:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, it definitely wasn't my goal to open a cold start practice in the start of pandemic. I honestly thought with the year being 2020 it would be good luck to open it with that, but you can never plan for things. I think that was an important lesson, to just always be prepared, especially financially, with working capital, when you go into any business. If we didn't do that, if I didn't do that, we would've been in a different place today.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
I think being prepared for that was always important, and being able to work the first couple of years, just seeing how other practices ran their business, really taught me a lot because I paid attention to their maybe downfalls and ways that they were efficient and applied that to my own business model.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, how did you balance everything? Because you had these plans in place, you were geared up to start this business, then coronavirus hit and you did have other financial things going on you had to balance. You still had student debt, so you had to balance that. Did you take out loans? How did you finance this business and how did you keep going as this pandemic is emerging?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, I definitely have student debt. Luckily, my undergrad was paid off and I had some scholarships. In terms of medical school and optometry school, it is quite expensive as we all know and we come out of it with a couple hundred thousand dollars with our name. I didn't always have a fear of taking out debt. I understood and I did my research about what the student rates were. I think a lot of people do have a fear of taking out student debt, and when they finish school their immediate goal is to completely pay off their loans because it may seem daunting or scary and they feel that they can't continue to do other things with their money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and it's not that it's bad to pay off the student debt. It's bad if it keeps you from living your life, I guess, is what you're getting at, that you don't start other things until you pay it down completely when you're facing, in your case, six-figure debt.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah. I think that is definitely something that stalls people or holds them back. I think it's important to realize that student debt is not a bad thing. I think people see it as a bad thing. There's definitely a lot of debt that other people have that they don't realize on a day-to-day basis that's actually worse, which is credit card loans that you purchase stuff with. Those interest rates are definitely higher.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Going into that, I definitely saved up enough working capital and I made sure that I refinanced my loans to make sure that I had a lower interest rate. I didn't really let that stop me from chasing my dreams and going after what I really wanted. Initially, I was held a bit back, looking at the cost of how much to start a complete cold start. I was even looking at buying old practices that were definitely a lot cheaper, but also evaluating their P&Ls. Thinking about the whole thing, I realized in the long run, this is a short-term investment for your end goal, which is the more important thing. So I was willing to take that investment, especially on myself. That's what I wanted to focus on.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did things change when you were in the pandemic and you're trying to start this?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Once it was around March, we were gearing up to open. We were finally putting down the finishing touches for the front of the store and then the pandemic happened. I'm in New York City, so when it first happened in March, it definitely was a tough time. It was really scary for us. We knew it was coming from upstate and then all of a sudden it became widespread and immediately everything just shut down. It was like a ghost town. We couldn't even go to the site to really look at the construction because we weren't even allowed to be in proximity with our contractors, so everything just came to a halt. I had to quickly convert to a virtual telehealth visit for my patients, while doing virtual Zoom calls with my architect team. It was just insane. It was an insane time. We couldn't even finish our construction because we had to apply for permitting in order to be able to finish construction during a pandemic.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Finally, around I would say maybe like June or July, they allowed us to go back in to finish construction. Of course, at that point there was delays in manufacturers with their materials, getting it to our store. It was just working around that. I mean, I will tell you, our store still isn't even completely done to this day. I've just learned to live day by day at this point. But luckily, we were able to at least open our doors August 6. I was just really excited to get in there. After four months of not really seeing patients in person, I wanted to be back in there to be able to care for the ones that really needed to see me during that time.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Then I was shocked because we basically, starting from the first day a month and a half ago to now, it's been seeing eight to 10 patients already. Partly, I think it would attribute to probably a little bit of social media, just sharing out there honest, brutal moments that I have and I think it makes it more authentic that people do see where you come from, and also sharing the fact that we're there to provide a space where they feel safe and comfortable, that it's modern and clean. I think that going forward, people really care about their health, patients really do, especially with COVID, that they realize how important their health is and they're willing to invest in that. I am grateful that people have been able to come in.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you do in advance financially to shore up your finances and made sure you had that runway?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
On a bigger scale level I think about it. People are either really trigger happy, or they're really risk adverse. If you're really risk adverse, you'll never take the first step because you're just afraid of all these self-doubts that you have. I think what has helped me is just really creating a strong financial plan and making sure that you have everything checked off for the worst-case scenario in case it happens, because you never know. I think for people who are trigger happy, I think that's one thing that they need to think about. Are there things that could happen, such as a pandemic, that will maybe cause me to not have any cashflow or working capital going into it?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Coming out of school a couple of years later, I realized it doesn't make sense to not refinance my loan so that I could reduce my interest rate and have it all in one place. That has helped me manage my money better. I was working, I would say for the first four years, full-time. Actually, when I first started in two practices, then I went down to one. I hustled, I worked really hard to save money. I didn't put it all into paying off my loans. I used it to save up money, invest on the side, so I had a better cash flow and working capital because I knew that I wanted to start my own practice at that point in time. I just knew that I needed money saved up to do that.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Starting lean when you start a practice is really important and only purchasing things when you need it. It has to justify. If you buy a piece of equipment, how many times do you have to perform the procedure to make the money back, thinking about that, cutting back on vendor purchases or offering more of a curated product of frame line. I think these days, patients prefer that one-on-one time, that one-on-one experience to feel like they've had an amazing experience at the store. You don't have to purchase a million things that don't get bought, instead focusing on limited product lines and setting aside cash reserves to pay bills and reducing your overhead capital expenditures and working with your vendors and landlord, if it's possible, if they're willing to negotiate with you.

Jennifer’s Money Lesson:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
I would say, little by little, a little becomes a lot. These little steps that you set in place for the long road is really important. One of the things for me is making sure that you have your financial steps in place. At least for me, that was refinancing my student loans, that was the very first step. For example, I use Laurel Road. Right now, I think federal interest rates are so low it's silly to not take advantage of that. It's great to have this digital lending platform that is built for specifically young professionals in healthcare as well to work towards their goals. There's definitely perks and rewards that they have for healthcare professionals. Refinancing definitely helps you with savings over time, and that's how you can use working capital to invest towards your future or your dream practice or something that you want to build.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and it's also going to help your credit score to have all of your finances in order, obviously, which is going to help if you do need to get more funding, especially if you get these unexpected things like a pandemic and you need to access maybe more capital, more time to pay loans and better rates than you maybe thought before.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Right, exactly. I agree.

Jennifer’s Money Tip:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, shiny object syndrome is definitely a public enemy if you go down this rabbit hole of just purchasing everything you find. They're really good at it with marketing, you're just sitting at home, scrolling through your phone on social media and there's something that you want. I remember when I first graduated out of school, with my first paycheck living in New York City, the first thing I decided to buy was a Chanel bag. That was the worst decision I ever made. I could not pay rent the next month. I learned really, really quickly to not do that. I think that was because of Sex and the City. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is so cool living in New York."

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
But I think learning stuff like that is really important. You don't have to have every single piece of brand new state-of-the-art technology in your office. I know you want it for your patients and for your store, but you want to start off very lean so that your savings don't get sucked dry so fast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and I think that makes sense. I mean, I was upset because the style that I wanted on your eyeglasses store was sold out, but you kept your inventory tight so you're living true to that. You don't want to buy so much inventory that you're holding on to inventory. You're starting out your business lean.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Take your time. I was so frustrated that the glasses I wanted to order it were sold out on her online store, Carrot Eyewear, but Dr. Jen explained that she needed to control her risk exposure by keeping inventories lean, even if that meant losing out on some sales, like to me. Yes, it may slow the pace of the retail business growth, but when the pandemic hit, she wasn't over leveraged. Patience pays. Think about how you can buy just what you need so you don't feel stretched and stressed.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Paying down debt is all good, but as we have learned in the past eight or nine months, well, it shouldn't be at the expense of having enough cash on hand to manage through something totally unexpected, like a global pandemic. Don't miss any payments, be mindful, think about how you can refinance maybe at a lower rate as Jen did, especially with our still super low interest rates, but also do the other things to build your life and keep living.

Episode Links:

• Jennifer’s websites -

  • www.drjennifertsai.com

  • www.lineofsightvision.com

  • www.carroteyewear.com

Follow Jennifer!

• Instagram - @drjenandjuice

• Instagram - @lineofsightvision

• Instagram - @carroteyewear

• Facebook - Carrot Eyewear

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.