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5 Money Tips to play (and profit) at The Long Game with author Dorie Clark ENCORE
5 Money Tips to play (and profit) at The Long Game with author Dorie Clark ENCORE

Dorie Clark shares game-changing tips to upgrade our work and personal lives including a new alternative to the passion vs. money career debate, jet-lag productivity, heartbeat income and working more hours- in less time. 

 

5 Money Tips To Play And Profit At The Long Game

  • Rethink Multitasking

  • Use Jet lag for productivity

  • Do something interesting

  • Ask- but wait a year first

  • Patience leads to the pay off- but don’t be passive

 

Follow Dorie!

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates, if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Dorie Clark:
Lower the stakes a little bit, because honestly, thinking about what is my passion is the dating equivalent of meeting somebody on OkCupid And then the next day your friends just keep saying, "Well, is he your soulmate? Is he the one?" It's like, "Oh my God, I don't know. Give me some time."

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, Grownup friends. You guys are in for a treat. This week's interview is someone I have been trying to get on the podcast for quite some time. It is Dorie Clark. She is the author of the new book, The Long Game, it's her fourth book actually. If you're not familiar with her, and frankly, even if you are familiar with her, you're going to be so happy to listen to this episode. You're going to get so much out of this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Dorie is a big time public speaker, thought leader, and as I mentioned, an author and so much more. We totally hit it off. She covered some great topics for us, including what we can do if we haven't found our big passion. We all talk about follow your passion, but some of us, it's not so obvious what that passion is, but Dorie has a great solution.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also talked about super easy ways to up our productivity. Yes, you can have more than 24 hours in a day apparently. I'll tell you, some of these things were obvious once Dorie pointed them out, but they really weren't obvious to me beforehand. They're easy things that we can do once we know how to do them from Dorie. You'll see, we were doing it all wrong.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, we're going to talk about what we can learn from the amount of time it takes to learn to do a handstand. It was a great story and it made so much sense. If we're being honest, I, by the way, can not do a handstand and I'm not going to put in the time to do this handstand thing, guys, but the lesson that Dorie is going to give us totally works. This is all going to make sense. I know this was a little bit confusing, but just trust me. Listen to the interview. Here is The Long Game author, Dorie Clark.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Dorie Clark. You're a financial grownup.

Dorie Clark:
Bobbi, thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I'm so glad to finally have you on. I've been a fan of yours since our mutual friend, Danielle Towne, introduced us a few years ago, and at that time started reading your books, Reinventing You, Entrepreneurial You, and you have some other ones in the mix, but most recently, The Long Game: How to Be a Long-Term Thinker in a Short-Term World. You can see all of the tattered pages. Congratulations.

Dorie Clark:
Thank you. It is amazing. It looks like a dog attacked it. I'm glad you were that voracious with it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I read it by the pool, so there was a little bit of suntan lotion and water and all that stuff, but it was truly loved, mainly because I know you as the super successful Dorie Clark, you're such a celebrated thought leader, but you're very vulnerable in this book.

Dorie Clark:
Thank you. Well, one of the things that has been challenging for me over the course of writing books, and this is my fourth one, and it's not necessarily a philosophical or emotional challenge, but it's actually just overcoming training. But I started my career as a journalist, specifically a political journalist, and the thing that you learn above all else is you are not the story. You are not the interesting part of the story, you write about other people. That was the frame that I was coming from. Over the course of writing my four books, I've come to learn that actually, in terms of what connects with readers, what seems to really make an impact, that's exactly wrong. I mean, what we look for in the news I think is very different than what we look for in business or career books.

Dorie Clark:
Over time, the part that people seem to respond to the most strongly was actually hearing some of my own experiences, and so over the years, I've really learned to weave more about what I've done and what I've tried and what I've gone through into the books as a compliment to the narrative and the reporting that I did. I'm really glad that you responded to that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I really did. The book is very relatable and I think a lot of people in our Grownup audience will feel the same way. You have a lot of incredible money and, frankly, life tips in the book. I want to dive right into those. I have five that I've highlighted. The first one is you talk about rethinking multitasking, because multitasking has gotten a lot of pushback in recent years, but you have a different perspective.

Dorie Clark:
Absolutely. It is completely true that perhaps what we think of when it comes to multitasking is bad. That would be the equivalent of like, "Oh, I'm actually pretending do a podcast interview with you, Bobbi, but I'm actually checking my email," and that is not true, by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
You could pull it off.

Dorie Clark:
Well, the truth is, if you're trying to use the same parts of your brain, something is going to slip and it's just going to be suboptimal all around. But something that I realized, through some very meticulous time-tracking studies that I did over the course of several years, is that actually there are very complimentary activities that you can do. I mean, some examples might be working out and listening to a professional development book, or taking a walk and calling your mom, or whatever the case is, but it's two activities that you can do both of them equally well at the same time. It could be a cooking dinner with a friend, So you're doing a chore, but you're also visiting with someone that you want to spend time with. During my time tracking, I actually would double count those activities if I could legitimately do both of them equally well, and I came to realize that I'm actually able to build in about 28% more time into my week by doing that. I've become a huge fan of strategic multitasking.

Bobbi Rebell:
What I love about that is it's the anti-workaholic mentality, because it's giving you more downtime.

Dorie Clark:
Absolutely. It's really just being a little bit more thoughtful. I mean, sometimes we fritter away these moments. I mean, I remember back early in my career when I didn't live in New York and I had a car and I'd drive to work, sometimes I just wouldn't think about it and I'd put on top 40 radio and most of it was just listening to advertisements. I mean, that is legitimately wasted time. Whereas, with a little bit more thought, you're listening to some kind of an educational podcast, like this one, or you're listening to an audio book and you're actually using that as professional development time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number two, use jet lag for productivity.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. Speaking of things that we normally treat as wasted time, jet lag is often a top of the list. I mean, we all know, when we're jet lagged, you're not going to get anything "meaningful" done in terms of the way that we normally think of meaningful work. I mean, you can't do anything detail-oriented, you're propping your eyelids open, you're not much use, but what I came to realize is that, actually, we can begin to think about that time differently.

Dorie Clark:
Now, I would never say, "Oh, let's do your QuickBooks when you're jet lagged," that would be a bad move, but what I actually did one time, sort of inadvertently, was I was jet lagged on a trip to Russia and I ended up being able to do basically an entire year's worth of strategic planning while I was keeping myself awake at a cafe, partly because when you are jet lagged in that way, when you're half sleep deprived, your brain is able to make creative associations that are not necessarily logical and linear. I was able to be a lot more big picture about my thoughts and it enabled me to do better strategic planning than if I actually had been well slept and in a more logical frame of mind. I think it's really about matching your energy and your state of being to the tasks that are most appropriate at that time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number three, this one, I love this because it's a strategy that solves the issue of should you follow your passion or should you follow what's going to make a lot of money. You say focus on doing something interesting.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. What I've seen, and I'm sure you probably have too, Bobbi, is that there is so much pressure in our culture to find your passion. What's your passion? You don't know what your passion is? People can feel kind of inadequate and browbeaten at a certain point if you're not following your passion. I know a lot of people, smart, talented, hardworking people, that maybe they've reached a point where they have been working so hard and so long, they might not even necessarily be sure what their passions are anymore. With the work and the kids, they have kind of turned that part off because it's not even something you can really dwell on.

Dorie Clark:
What I wanted to do in my book, The Long Game, was to lower the stakes a little bit, because honestly, thinking about what is my passion is the dating equivalent of meeting somebody on OkCupid And then the next day your friends just keep saying, "Well, is he your soulmate? I mean, is he the one?" It's like, "Oh my God, I don't know. Give me some time." Instead of looking for the passion, instead of looking for the soulmate, what I suggest is just do what's interesting, just explore something that seems interesting. It's a low bar, but almost all of us are at least able to tell, okay, this seems interesting to me or not. Then if it stays interesting, keep moving in that direction, and if it doesn't, it's your signal to pivot. I think that that is sometimes a more sane and sustainable way to begin to move in the direction of things that you care about more.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, that can evolve. We're not going to go too deeply into it because I want people to read it more fully in the book, but one thing you weave throughout the book that I loved hearing about is your passion for theater, which was not something you did as a kid. You weren't a theater kid on stage every day, but you started to develop it and now it's evolving into perhaps a business. I can't wait to see the rest of the story evolve, but it can be something that sort of weaves through your life through different things, even taking a comedy course, different things that you did.

Bobbi Rebell:
But in the interest of moving on, we're going to go to number four because otherwise we'll just go on a million tangents with you. Number four, ask, but wait a year first. Because we do push people to go, go after that mentor, get a champion, get someone who's going to be a sponsor at work, but it's a little delicate. You say a year, that seems so long.

Dorie Clark:
It's true, it's true. I like to be a little extreme in this because I think that we have a cultural problem, because certainly in the United States, but in many other countries as well, where we have internalized way too much, the mentality of, well, it doesn't hurt to ask. I would like to say, actually yes, sometimes it does hurt to ask, because if you are making an inappropriate request too early in a relationship, you will destroy that relationship. Now, where people go sometimes is they say, "Oh, well I don't want to be a wallflower. I don't want to be stupid about things." Well, the point is, it's not that you never ask, it's that you have to let a relationship evolve to the point where the ask is appropriate and contextual.

Dorie Clark:
I mean, I am sure this is probably the case for you, Bobbi, with your business and the media profile that you've cultivated. I certainly experience this as well, where I will meet somebody, maybe at an event, maybe we connect on LinkedIn or something like that, and then five minutes later they're saying, "Oh, hey, I see you're connected to so-and-so," insert super prominent person, "Can you connect us?" It's like, "Wait, I don't even know anything about you." Also, people don't really get this context, but a million people are asking the same thing. I don't want to blow up my relationship with somebody by sending them five random people a day. It's important to be thoughtful and to be judicious.

Dorie Clark:
It's not like ask them anything. If it's like, "Oh, Bobbi, I really like that sweater. Where did you get it?" Fine, ask them that, but I'm talking about wait a year before you ask somebody for something that involves political capital. When you do that, you're able to establish a genuine relationship so that they understand that you are not in it for the wrong reasons and you're not in it to use them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and using is very different from mutually beneficial friendships. There's nothing wrong with that.

Bobbi Rebell:
The fifth one, my fifth tip I want you to talk about, is patience leads to a payoff, but it's not just patience, you have to not be passive. That's a lot of P words, but yes, patience leads to the payoff, but don't be passive.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. In The Long Game, I have a concept that I write about called strategic patients. This is something that is dear to my heart, because frankly, from the time that I've been a little kid, patience has never been my strong suit. I have not been very good at it, but it is something that I have had to learn over time. I think the part that used to bother me about patience was that it did seem so passive. I mean, the way that it gets talked about oftentimes, and at least how my mom would talk about it, it was like, "Oh, we're just going to sit back, good things will happen. Just be patient, things work out." I can't help it, I'm a little more type A than that. I like to make things happen, not just have them happen.

Dorie Clark:
We understand, of course, we can't make everything happen, but it's important for us to have agency and for us to have autonomy in our lives and to control what we can control. Therefore, I have created essentially a hybrid model of strategic patience, because the truth is, yeah, it takes time, they don't happen as fast as you want, but you don't want to be a sucker about it. So that means actually developing hypotheses about, well, how long should this take and what are the signs that it's working or not working, how can I monitor them and adjust accordingly?

Dorie Clark:
The truth is, there's a lot of power. If something is going to take five years and you know it's going to take five years and you're monitoring for your progress, you're actually able to weather that a lot better. I mean, would it be better if it was fast? Yes, but you're able to weather that in a way that mostly you couldn't if you thought it was going to take six months and then it's not happening, it's not happening. That's when people give up, and they give up prematurely and it means that they are not able to accomplish their dreams.

Bobbi Rebell:
You give such wonderful and tangible examples of that in the book. My favorite is the headstand example.

Dorie Clark:
Yeah, thank you. This is one of my favorites as well. It actually comes from Jeff Bezos from one of his shareholder letters to Amazon stockholders. He tells the story about how a friend of his hired a handstand coach for yoga, which is pretty funny of a concept, but it turns out it is actually a legit hard to do a handstand. What the handstand coach told Bezos' friend is that the average person guesstimates that it'll take about two weeks of practice in order to be able to do a handstand. That is not the case. It turns out it takes about six months of daily practice to be able to do a yoga handstand.

Dorie Clark:
The lesson I think for all of us is that unless we are thoughtful and deliberate, it is easy to wildly over or underestimate what is going to be necessary for something. We really have to be aware of that. We have to check our assumptions and be thoughtful, because if you think something's going to take two weeks and it ends up taking six months, which is a factor of 12 difference, you're going to give up, you are going to get discouraged. That's true whether your goal is writing a book, whether it's being featured in a high-profile publication, whether it's building a new career. Developing that strategic patience is a really important prerequisite to being able to persevere and succeed.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many wonderful insights in your book, The Long Game. I'm looking forward to hearing back from our listeners when they read it, so everyone should check it out. It will be everywhere, so we don't need to go through where your book will be, but where are you if people want to follow up with you?

Dorie Clark:
Thank you, Bobbi, I appreciate it. Well, the best place to find me, and also about 700 free articles on my website, is DorieClark.com. For people who are interested in the concept of playing the long game and becoming a more strategic and long-term thinker, I do have a free resource, which is The Long Game Strategic Thinking Self-assessment. Folks can get it for free at dorieclark.com/thelonggame.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much and continued success.

Dorie Clark:
Thanks, Bobbi, great to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, did any of you think that it took that long to learn how to do a handstand? Would you hire a coach to teach you that? Yeah, me too. Dorie is so great. I actually went to her website after the interview to get some of her extra materials, very much worth making the effort, everyone, highly recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many highlights from the interview, but the big takeaway for me was really that last part about strategic patience. Sometimes things just take time and if you don't have the right mindset, or in some cases, we don't have the resources to go the distance, we need to get honest about where we are spending our time and the best way to be spending our time. I have definitely been hit up by people very aggressively to make an introduction to other people way too early, so that whole thing really resonated with me. I mean, a year, it sounds like a long time, but time goes pretty quickly and you can't force a relationship. There's so much more in Dorie's latest book, The Long Game. She wasn't kidding, I really did read it intensely and I do plan to reference the book a lot. There's a lot of good stuff there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Everyone, please be in touch. Let me know what resonated with you on this interview and let me know what more you want to hear on the podcast. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. Of course, if you want to hear more from me, I would love for you to join my newsletter. Just go to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and sign up there. Big thanks to The Long Game author, Dorie Clark, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley [Wall 00:19:59]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your Grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Authors, Money, Personal FinanceBobbi Rebell KaufmanMoney Tips, Dorie Clark, Speaker, Keynote Speaker, Author
From the “Birds and the Bees” to the "Dollars and the Cents” with Disrupt Yourself host Whitney Johnson
From the “Birds and the Bees” to the "Dollars and the Cents” with Disrupt Yourself host Whitney Johnson
 

Bobbi chats with popular author and keynote speaker Whitney Johnson about how we can disrupt the traditional ways of talking to our kids about money to meet them where they are, boost their confidence and get comfortable revealing own financial struggles.   

 
 
 
 

Follow Whitney!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.



Full Transcript:

Money can be one of the hardest things to talk about with your kids- because it is so emotional and because we as parents often hide our own struggles from our kids. 

I have spent the past few months since the release of my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life While Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart” talking to a long list of exceptional journalists, podcast hosts and experts. 

And one of the real stand out ones was with someone who is very familiar to many of you because I have had her on repeatedly to share her wisdom with our financial grownup community. It is Whitney Johnson and for those of you who are not yet subscribed to her Disrupt Yourself podcast you are in for a treat. Guests on the podcast have included the world’s best thinkers and do-ers: names like Adam Grant, Simon Sinek, Benee Brown and Susan Cain- and recently yours truly. 

I feel honored to be in such incredible company- and you may hear me getting a little nervous in this interview but Whitney got a lot of stuff out of me that I don’t normally discuss in public and she also adds in her exceptional take on how we can teach the next generation about money. 

I’m so excited to share my chat with Whitney Johnson on her Disrupt Yourself podcast. 

 
Advice, Authors, Family + Relationships, Money, Personal FinanceBobbi Rebell KaufmanDisrupt Yourself, whitney johnson
How to give to causes like a financial grownup with Simple Acts Author Natalie Silverstein
How to give to causes like a financial grownup with Simple Acts Author Natalie Silverstein
 

Author Natalie Silverstein returns to the podcast to preview her latest book: Simple Acts: The Busy Teen's Guide to Making a Difference

 
 
 
 

Follow Natalie!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

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  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.



Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grown up friends. A big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to write, because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids, and what was not working. And I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you. So, first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends, and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest. And it was a lot of work, but I really love doing it. And I'm really happy with how it came out.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important, because the algorithm picks up on them, and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So, I truly appreciate it, and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Bobbi Rebell:
That feeling of when you give, the generosity, the good feeling that you get back in return is totally, totally worth it. Another cup of coffee that's costing you $8 at a fancy coffee shop, you don't need that cup of coffee.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips For Financial Grownups. With me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because you know what? Grown up life is really hard, but together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownups love that coffee reference in the open. And it is true. Whether the mission is to give to ourselves in the form of investing, or to give to others, thinking twice about the little ways money is sometimes mindlessly spent can be a good exercise. Friend of the podcast, Natalie Silverstein, is back to share her new book, Simple Acts: The Busy Teens Guide To Making a Difference. Among the things that we talk about is fundraising, how to ask people for money, something I personally find very hard to do, even when it is for a really good cause that I'm giving money to myself. We also talk about social media, and how teens, and really, all of us, can leverage our followings for good. Just quickly, before we roll the interview, I want to thank everyone who has picked up copies of Launching Financial Grownups. I am sending virtual hugs to all of you, especially if you took just a couple of minutes to write a review on Amazon. I'm trying to get a hundred reviews, and I need each and every one of you to help me get there.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm not going to lie, it is hard to keep asking, but it's slow going. You guys are busy. I get it. The link is right in the show notes, super easy. Also, if you're just on the Amazon page where you bought the book, scroll down, find it right at the bottom where it says post eight review or leave a review. You get it. I need this, and I appreciate all of you who do it so much. On that note, let's move on. Here is my interview with a fantastic Natalie Silverstein.

Bobbi Rebell:
Natalie Silverstein, you are a financial grownup. Welcome back to the podcast.

Natalie Silverstein:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. And it's so great to be with you again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I'm happy to have you back to celebrate the launch of your newest book. Simple Acts: The Busy Teens Guide to Making a Difference, which is a follow up to your earlier book, which was, Simple Acts: The Busy Family's Guide to Giving Back, which was published in 2019. And by the way, it was named one of the top books for parents who want to raise kind kids by the Huff Post. I am a parent of a teen as our listeners know. I wanted to know more about this, especially how things have evolved over COVID. So, tell us a little bit about the book, what's changed since the first book, what's added for teens and COVID. That was five questions in one, so I'll let you go now.

Natalie Silverstein:
Well, thank you so much. It's so good to be with you again. And congratulations to you on the new book. I love it. I have two emerging adults. I have a 19 year old and a 21 year old. And believe me, I am using your book almost daily now. So, basically when the first book came out, which was really geared towards families with young children, it came out in April of 2019. It was thrilling. And pretty much the very same day, on the day of my big party for the book launch, which was such a fun day, I had several people come over to me and say, "This is great, and I want you to sign it/ and it's awesome, but when are you going to write one for teenagers?" So, even the rabbi from our temple came over, and he's like, "This is awesome, but can you do one for kids doing bar and bat mitzvah and confirmation?"

Natalie Silverstein:
I'm like, "Okay, rabbi, can I just enjoy this moment for five minutes before someone asks me to write the follow up?" But I see the point there, which is that book was really for families with young children, and it was really about living our values and how we go through our days and setting this precedent for our kids and setting this example, role modeling this. And it's important, but it's really important as kids age and grow into compassionate and empathetic adults and young adults. And so immediately, I started thinking about the follow up. I had a proposal, and I got it out there into the world and I signed a contract, and literally was starting to write the new book in March of 2020. So, we all know what happened then. The world sort of shut down. I had a couple of months to write the book. And I was bereft, as everyone was.

Natalie Silverstein:
As schools shut down, my oldest child came home from her freshman year of college. She was disappointed, to say the least. So, we were all living together under one roof, remote school, remote everything. And it was tough. A mutual friend of ours, Erica [inaudible 00:06:23], reminded me that I should really write a little prologue, a little forward to the book, and explain the conditions under which I was writing this, and how for a few minutes there, I wondered to myself if this was really important. And I didn't know what was happening in the world. And my kids were just, again, bereft as everyone's kids were. They lost so much. And then slowly, day by day, as per Mr. Rogers, I looked around and I started looking for the helpers, right?

Natalie Silverstein:
And this was the story of the early days of the pandemic, certainly, where the only thing giving us hope, getting us out of bed in the morning was knowing that the situation was pretty dire, but there were people out there willing to literally risk their lives, to help us and to get our food delivered and to take care of those who were ill, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, the way that we got out of our sadness and depression and hopelessness was to volunteer, to engage, to send pizzas to the local emergency department, and to bake and to make blankets, and you name it. And that's what my kids and I did, when they weren't doing online school for those first few kind of really tough months. So, it was that mindset that sort of informed the work. I had an outline. I knew what I wanted to talk about, but it really re-energized my belief that serving others, caring for others, turning our focus outward helps us to feel better and to feel more hopeful, to feel less isolated.

Natalie Silverstein:
And so I just really felt like this was a message that teenagers, in particular, needed to hear, because they had really lost so much. So, the book emerged from that. It is written for teens, as opposed to being written for parents. And so that was an important piece of it too, because I didn't want to be preachy, right? I didn't want to talk down to kids. I didn't want to be corny. In your book, you talk a lot about speaking to your kids in a way that isn't preachy, that isn't nagging, right? You want them to make these choices and these decisions, you want to give them options, but you want it to come from them, and you want to encourage them to come up with these ideas, these things that they're passionate about so that they can find their purpose and they can connect to it. And that's how we're going to get them to do the work long term and to stay engaged in it.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, let's go over some of the money tips that you have in the book, because money does make a big difference when it comes to helping organizations. It does matter. It's important to be there in person too, but money can make a huge difference and should never be underestimated. The first thing that I think a lot of people find really hard is fundraising. You say it's easier than you think. Tell us how is it easy, because I find it totally intimidating. I've done fundraisers. It's hard.

Natalie Silverstein:
It is. It is hard. It's sort of funny. I've done a ton of fundraising for our kids' school, for our temple, for other organizations. I actually don't have a problem asking people for money, because I remind myself that the worst thing that someone can say is no. And if you're passionate about something, if you really care about an organization and its mission and what it is trying to accomplish, you're not asking for yourself. I'm not asking you for money so I can put it in my own pocket or go buy myself something. I am asking you to come on board with me. And it's also requiring me to express to you, to articulate to you why this cause is so important and why it matters, and why your donation will make a difference and how. And so I find that fundraising is this really wonderful way to distill what it is that you care about, why, why you have decided to give some of your very hard-earned money to this cause to help, and why it is worth trying to convince others to do the same.

Natalie Silverstein:
And so I think there are so many skills here that I've just described that I think we want our young people to have, which is understanding what they care about, knowing how to articulate it, and really trying to convince someone else, and then also developing kind of a thick skin. Because again, the worst thing that someone can say is no. You say, "Thank you. Thanks for consideration. Thank you for your time today." And you move on. And you need to let that sort of roll right off of you. I find, in asking people for money, people aren't typically rude about this. I'm not talking about cold calling, but I'm saying, asking folks, who you have their attention and talking about this fundraising issue. I think most of the time, people are receptive to this. They support the effort if they can. If they can't, they will apologize and say, "I'm sorry, I can't help you today," or whatever it is. I really think that this is a great life skill.

Bobbi Rebell:
You point out that money is important. No matter how much you make, you do have something to give. It doesn't have to be only about dollars.

Natalie Silverstein:
Right. Absolutely. I want kids to really tap into... And you'll see, there's a chapter of the book that really talks about what's your, why? What are the things that you're passionate about? And then what are your talents, your skills, your strengths, the things that you enjoy doing? And I want people to be sort of expansive in their thinking about this. When I say talents, I don't mean, are you a concert pianist? I mean, are you particularly strong? Are you really patient? Do you love to read? Do you have really neat handwriting? Are you great with technology? Which let's face it, every teenager is. They're technology natives. Can you go to a senior center and help elderly folks to learn how to use their phones, or how to use the FaceTime so that they can communicate or Zoom with their families? Every single kid has a talent or a gift or a strength that they can share. And they might not know it. And a lot of kids are very insecure, especially after these last few years.

Natalie Silverstein:
And they probably feel like, "Ugh, I don't really have anything special about me. What could anyone use that I have?" But every single kid has something special about them that they can share.

Bobbi Rebell:
Consistency is something that you talk about as being very important. Once you choose a cause, especially if it's a school you maybe went to, your alma mater, or whatever it is, to consistently to have. I think that's important, because you can make more of an impact if you're more consistent with one organization, whether it be small or large. Having that ongoing relationship can be really meaningful in your life. I have found that myself.

Natalie Silverstein:
Yeah, absolutely. I think there are a few things here. There are organizations that where you can set up to have a monthly donation come automatically out of your bank account or out of your PayPal or whatever. So, we do this with God's Love. We deliver here in New York City. I automatically give them some very small amount, but it comes out of my bank account or my credit card every single month. So, I don't even think about that. That automatically goes to them. And so consistently, over the course of years, that adds up, right? And then in terms of your alma mater or giving to a school or to another organization... I got a scholarship when I went to college. I don't know about you, Bobbi, but there was no way I was going to college unless I got scholarship money and loans and work study. My parents were immigrants, and I was the first of my family to go away to college.

Natalie Silverstein:
And the school that I attended was able to give me an academic scholarship, which meant that I got a certain amount of money, I want to say about $5,000, if I stayed on the Dean's list every semester for four years. So, this was a motivator for me to do well and to work hard in my academic work. I also had work study money that came in, so I worked a job. And that money bridged the gap and made it possible for me to attend college. So, my mom said to me, and they were not big philanthropists. They had come here with nothing in their pockets, not speaking the language. And they said to me, when I graduated, "They helped you. They gave you this gift of this scholarship money.

Natalie Silverstein:
It is your responsibility to give something back to the college, as much as you can when you're working." So, my very first job... I graduated in 1991. And I recently checked with the alumni office. I've given a gift to my college every year since 1992. Now, those dollars were not huge. Probably in the beginning, it was probably $25 or something, a hundred dollars. I don't know, but that adds up. And any development professional will tell you, it almost doesn't matter. Consistency is what matters. Participation is what matters. The loyalty to this, that I believe in this school, and it is important to me for my family to give back. And PS, over time, as my circumstances have changed, I've been able to increase that amount. And so that's just golden. And I think that's so important, and it makes me feel really, really great.

Natalie Silverstein:
And so I think having those types of things in your life, the things you really care about, you can show that you support this cause. This is important enough for you to set aside some money. As we know, there's been a lot of studies done, that those who do tithing in their religious communities, et cetera, typically folks who have less money give more as a percentage of their income, because it is just kind of what they feel is expected of them, and it's how they want to give back to support this organization, this cause, this community. And so I would just encourage young people to think this way, and to know that they always have something to give. And that feeling of when you give, the generosity, the good feeling that you get back in return is totally, totally worth it. Another cup of coffee that's costing you $8 at a fancy coffee shop, you don't need that cup of coffee, right? That $8 can probably make a bigger difference for an organization that really needs it. And I just want young people and teens to think about that.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also talk about using social media.

Natalie Silverstein:
I don't know about you, but I only want to follow and look at positive messages online. There is enough bad news in the world, if I try and watch any of the nightly news. I don't need to see negative messages on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook or anything else. So my account, which is simpleactsguide, all I do is promote the volunteer work that I do, the organizations that I support, other folks that I know who are doing good things. I just amplify amplify, amplify positive messages. And if I'm doing great out in the community, or I'm fundraising or I'm volunteering somewhere in a hands on way, and I want to share that, I just blast that out.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us where people can follow up with you on your socials, and also your website and key resources.

Natalie Silverstein:
I am @simpleactsguide. That's the Instagram account. That's my main platform really, because I love using photographs. So, simpleactsguide. And that's also on Facebook. And that's also the website, simpleactsguide.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Natalie Silverstein, thank you so much.

Natalie Silverstein:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. It's such a pleasure to be with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Natalie had so many great ideas. Again, a reminder full transcripts on my webpage, Bobbirebell.com, so no need to take notes. I follow Natalie, by the way and her simpleactsguide account on Instagram, and it is always a mood lifter and motivator. So, please make sure you are following her. And the simpleactsguide has a separate page, so follow that too.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is motivating you guys this summer, besides obviously Natalie? Please follow me on Instagram a@bobbirebell1, and on Twitter @bobbirebell, and DM me to let me know that you are part of the Financial Grownup community, so I can follow you back. And then let me know what is motivating you. What's getting you excited, especially with so many things finally opening up. And even though it is so crazy expensive, I know a lot of us are really getting down to it and taking those vacations that we have put off for so long. For more on Natalie, please check out our show notes.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can get those right on my website, bobbirebell.com, where you can also get our free newsletter, and as I mentioned, free transcripts of every podcast. I also want to support your company or organizations that you care about by being part of upcoming events that you might have, or if you have a need for personal finance education or consulting, get in touch by going to the work with me section on my website. I'm looking forward to hearing from you guys. I can't wait to hear back from everyone after you check out Natalie's book as well. As a reminder, it is called Simple Acts: The Busy Teens Guide to Making a Difference. And big thanks to Natalie for always making sure we are at our best as financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, Bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips For Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media, and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

 
Authors, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Productivity, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanNatalie Silverstein, Simple Acts, Author, Simple Acts: The Busy Teen's Guide to Making a Difference
How to Manage the Career Blah’s with Smart Growth author Whitney Johnson ENCORE
How to Manage the Career Blah’s with Smart Growth author Whitney Johnson ENCORE
 

Feeling ambivalent about your career these days? With the pandemic dragging on, you are not alone. Whitney Johnson is back with some tips to get unstuck and recharge

Tips for Managing the Career Blahs

  • Learn how common the Career Blahs

  • Find out what the S-curve is and where you are on the curve.

  • Why you shouldn’t just say “I quit”

  • Learn why it’s less difficult to take on something new if it corresponds to your identity

 
 

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey grownups, before we start the podcast I want to talk to you about keeping things in perspective. And remembering sometimes we just have to laugh it off. We need that. Life is full of grownup choices and it can be a lot. So it's important to keep things in perspective and have a sense of humor. That's why I created Grownup Gear. It is super fun merch to celebrate adulting. Tshirts, sweats, mugs, I even have kitchen aprons for cooking. It lets everyone know that you are a grownup. Or, at least a grownup in progress. Or, at least you know someone who's a grownup. We even have the cutest baby gear, from onesies to bibs, that say things like, "I can't believe you are the grownup." The best gifts for new parents, birthdays, engagements, graduation, pretty much any occasion. Even a great gift for yourself. Check it all out at grownupgear.com.

Whitney Johnson:
Often times, when we're in that blah place, we start to go into fantasy land of, "Oh, I think I want to do a different job in a different industry in a different country," which isn't really very practical most of the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what, when it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, grownups. Very excited to share the second in our Grownup Career miniseries that started last week, with Deborah Wheaton of Careers Done Right. This week, I'm so excited to share my interview with bestselling author and host of the Disrupt Yourself Podcast, Whitney Johnson. I invited Whitney back to the podcast because she has a new book out. It's her fourth one, guys. That's a lot. It's called Smart Growth. Whitney is a force in the career and workplace advisor space. She has 1.8 million followers on LinkedIn. 1.8 million. Maybe by the time this comes out, it's going to be two million. Oh my gosh. She also was selected as a Top Voice in 2020 at LinkedIn and her course on Fundamentals of Entrepreneurship has been viewed more than one million times.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview, we talked about something that is front-and-center for a lot of us, and good for you if it's not, but I don't know. Anyway, good for you. But for me, it is the career blahs, especially as I've said, as we enter year three of this pandemic. Oh, gosh. Hang in there, guys. Here is Whitney Johnson.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Whitney Johnson, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to back to the podcast.

Whitney Johnson:
Oh, Bobbi, I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I asked you back because you have your number four book, Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company. You're going to be talking to us about the work blahs, so we're going to get to that in a minute.

Bobbi Rebell:
But before we do that, tell me about this book. And gosh, writing a book in a pandemic, my goodness.

Whitney Johnson:
Well, I think it's the best time to write a book because you have focused time and you're not traveling. But, here is what it's about. I've written three books prior to that, and the last two, one was called Disrupt Yourself, the second one was called Build an A Team. And in those books, I had something called the S Curve of Learning, kind of in the background. It was the supporting actor. And people kept looking at it, and calling it out and saying, "Let's talk about it."

Whitney Johnson:
And basically, what it does is it gives us this simple visual model of what growth looks like, of what it feels like. It was always in the background and I said, "We need to write a book so that people can have this front-and-center. And understand, okay now I have this way to think about the emotional arc of growth." So that's what this book is about, is giving people a map to grow.

Bobbi Rebell:
And we all want to grow, but the truth is, as I kind of said, you could hear it in my voice at the beginning of this interview, it's really hard. We're going on year three here. A lot of us have the blahs when it comes to work. And that is something that you do address in the book Smart Growth.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us, first of all, how common is it? We think, whatever level we're at, that it's just us. Even the biggest bosses get this. You know some VIPs and they definitely get the workplace blahs.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah. The reason you get the blahs is ... I want you to picture an S in your mind and you can draw it with your hand, left to right, a line where you get the launch point. And that's where you start something brand new, and you don't know what you're doing and you're trying to figure it out. And it's overwhelming, and exhilarating and all those important things. And growth initial feels very slow, even though it's fast. But then, you put in the effort and you accelerate into what I call the sweet spot. This is the place where it's exciting, and exhilarating and it's hard but not too hard, easy but not too easy. And this is the place where growth not only is fast, it feels fast. But then, and now we're coming to the blahs, you get into mastery.

Whitney Johnson:
And mastery is this place where you're, "I'm at the top of the mountain! I am the king or queen of the mountain." But the problem is, is that because you have figured it all out, you're not longer learning, you're no longer enjoying the feel good effects of learning. You can get bored. So if you don't do something new, you're going to either potentially self sabotage, you're going to get complacent or have to go somewhere else. So, enter the blahs, this feeling of, "I'm really good at this but I feel like I can no longer do it."

Bobbi Rebell:
So relevant these days and something I think so many of us feel so often. So how do we know where we are on the S curve? Because I think you can get the blahs at many different stages. And then, how do we get out of the blahs? Especially when it feels like we're just home, alone. And there's a very thin line between oh, we have our privacy, but then it's a lot of isolation. You put on a big face when you have that Zoom meeting, maybe even turn your camera off these days, more and more. And then, you get off that and you're just still home. Blah, blah, blah.

Whitney Johnson:
It's an interesting predicament. What I would say is that, when you're on an S curve of learning and you're at the launch point, you don't always know is this the fact that it's the wrong S curve and therefore the blahs, or if it's the right S curve but you just don't have momentum yet and you need to persist. And so, one of the things you want to do when you're at that launch point is ask yourself questions like is this something that is in sync with my identity, in sync with my values, in sync with my why? And maybe, I'm just burned out. Because I think the blahs, right now, can also be, "I'm just burned out and I need a rest, I need a break."

Whitney Johnson:
But, if all those questions are, "Yes, I actually really like doing this but I just need a break," then you want to stay on this curve and find a way to rest and reflect. There's a wonderful quote by Tiffany Shlain who wrote a book called 24/6. And she says, "What if we thought of rest as technology? Because the promise of technology is that it makes our life more efficient and more productive. And if we're willing to rest, that will also make our life more efficient and more productive."

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any practical tips to decide where do you even begin?

Whitney Johnson:
Start assessing, "What do I like about what I'm doing currently?" There's going to be lots of things that you do actually like. And, "What don't I like?" Start having lots and lots of conversations with people about, "What do I do well? What are my superpowers?" What do people compliment you on? Because in those compliments, there are going to be lots and lots of clues to what you do well and what you might want to do next.

Whitney Johnson:
Often times, when we're in that blah place, we start to go into fantasy land of, "Oh, I think I want to do a different job in a different industry in a different country," which isn't really very practical most of the time. So you want to initially say, "Well, okay. If I've been a CFO for a really long time and I'm tired of being a CFO, and I want to do something different, how about if I go be a CFO in a different town? Or, maybe I work as a CFO part time, so that I can still put food on the table but I can think about what else I might want to do." Maybe working with startups. And then, over time that could move to a new S curve where you become the CFO, or even the CEO of a startup, because you've given yourself an opportunity to jump to a new curve but not just leap off without a parachute.

Bobbi Rebell:
That goes to a theme that you talk about in the book, which is the concept of familiar yet novel. And I think that's really relevant to so many people these days, that have this frustration and this blah about their careers, where they're first instinct might just be to join the Great Resignation and just say, "I quit." But there's some red flags with that. You're pointing out that maybe too big a leap doesn't make sense.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah. There's two thoughts on that.

Whitney Johnson:
First of all, yes I do talk about this idea of familiar versus novel. There was some terrific research out of Northwestern. They looked at 10 million research papers written over the course of 10 years and they found that the ones that were most cited were the ones that have 85 to 95 percent of the sources were familiar, in the lane, usual suspect, but five to 15 percent were novel, outside of the scope of what people would expect. And so, if you use that as an analog or as a benchmark, when you're thinking about doing something new, you want it to be 85 to 95 percent familiar, then five to 15 percent novel. So it's familiar enough that you can get a handle on it, but it's novel enough that it surprises and delights you, and it gets your dopamine going. That's a good place to start.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you talk about the fact that it is less difficult to take on something new if it corresponds to your identity. We have to pay attention. As much as we may want to change, we have to be realistic about the fact ... and also maybe make it our superpower, I don't know if that's the right term. That we do have an identity that people are used to seeing and it has to still make sense. You can reinvent yourself and disrupt yourself, as you often talk about, but it also has to be in a way that people will still recognize you.

Whitney Johnson:
Right. Well, and it depends. Because sometimes, for example, there might be an identity shift that you want to make, that is very important to you to make. So you want to change how people perceive you as being kind versus mean, so in that case it's an identity you aspire to.

Whitney Johnson:
But in this case, we would talk about it as being on brand. Is this something that people say, "Oh yeah, Bobbi is going to do something in the financial arena." You've got a new book coming up. What's it called? Financial ...

Bobbi Rebell:
Launching Financial Grownups.

Whitney Johnson:
Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Whitney Johnson:
That's in your lane, that identity works. But if you said, "Hey everybody, I'm going to write a book about dressage." Equestrian. People would be like, "Whoa, okay."

Bobbi Rebell:
What?

Whitney Johnson:
Not sure what to do with that. You would have to do a lot of work to get people to say, "I'm still going to follow her there."

Whitney Johnson:
What's happening is that when you want to jump to a new S curve, you are asking everyone else around you, in this case a potential employer, to jump to a new S curve as well. There's risk involved for them to do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, I want to get to one more thing before I let you go. There's a story that just was ... I don't know if the word magical is the right word because it's a dirty story. It's a dirty story because it has to do with the Dirty Jobs guy, Mike Rowe. I just want you to share at least part of it, I know we don't have time to do all of it. But, I want you to share it because it just shows that sometimes, it's not about ... You have to find the right sort of job and the right identity for yourself, but you also have to find the right place for it, where you can monetize it and make it your career. So tell us quickly about the Mike Rowe story and how he had all these different jobs, he was bumbling around. On the surface, I would say he was pretty successful, he was on TV and all that stuff.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
But ...

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah. Mike Rowe, we all know him from Dirty Jobs. He was jumping onto a lot of S curves. I mean, you could argue that he was a master explorer. He had job after job. And he was an opera singer, and he was on Home Shopping Network, lots of jobs. Well, he's now on the Evening Show in San Francisco. He gets a call. He's gone to yet another winery and he gets a call from his mother.

Bobbi Rebell:
Winery representing another boring location to him.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah, exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
For him, that was boring.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah, exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
I would like it. But for him, this was not desirable. Not a desirable reporting assignment.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah, exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Go on, Whitney.

Whitney Johnson:
Nor to his mother. So his mother calls him up and says, "Hey, Mike." I think she said Michael. "When are you going to do a job that your grandfather can be proud of? He's over 90, he's about to die. When are you going to do that?"

Whitney Johnson:
This was the call to adventure, the jump to a new S curve. He says, "You know what, I'm going to go into a sewer and I'm going to film a sewer inspector." He goes into this sewer, and he has raw sewage all over him and all these roaches. And it's on Evening Magazine in San Francisco. And he says he loved it, but the producers called him in and they fired him.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. He found his calling but they didn't like his calling.

Whitney Johnson:
They did not. They kicked him off the curve, but they gave him the footage. It was originally called Somebody's Got to Do It, but that became the pilot for Dirty Jobs, which arguably changed the face of reality television.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, yeah. My husband loves that. Yeah. I can't watch it, but good for them. They should enjoy it. The point being ... Well, you tell me. What is the takeaway from this? I love that story.

Whitney Johnson:
The point is is that, first of all, I think he was 42. He was over 40 when this happened. So I think that's an important point, which is so often we think, "Oh, I'm in my 20s, my life is over. I'm 15, my life is over. I'm 25, my life is over." 35, your life is over. And the reality is your life is never over until it's over, so I think that's the first thing.

Whitney Johnson:
The second thing is pay attention to your mother. Just joking, but not really. The third thing is that you're going to be on a lot of S curves and many of those S curves won't be the right S curve. But if you're willing to continue to explore, you will eventually find the S curve that is the right S curve for you. What I have found in my own life, and I think most of your listeners will find, is most of us don't really find our calling until we're in our 30s or 40s.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. So much changes, it's so true. So true. Wonderful advice. Thank you for coming back. Where can people find out more about you and Smart Growth?

Whitney Johnson:
Well, you can go to smartgrowthbook.com to find out more about the book. I have a podcast as well, so you can go to Disrupt Yourself, the podcast. As you just heard, we had Mike Rowe on and he told the story much better than I did just now. So those are probably the best two places.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Whitney Johnson:
Thank you, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
This podcast is way too short in the case of Whitney's book, so definitely pick up a copy of Smart Growth. There were so many incredible stories there. Lots of unexpected anecdotes and stories, like that Mike Rowe Dirty Jobs one, that really makes you see things in a different perspective. And helps you understand that people who you think are totally set in their careers, and they've always been on the right path, maybe not so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway, I also fully appreciated Whitney's mentioning of my book, Launching Financial Grownups. Thank you for all of your support. I know quite a few of you have already put in preorders. DM me and let me know, so that I can thank you. It really does help with how book sellers will present suggestions to other potential listeners, to see activity before the official release date. Which, by the way, is March 22nd. So placing that preorder is very appreciated.

Bobbi Rebell:
Some of you have asked me where to order, among the different retailers. Where's the best place to order Launching Financial Grownups? Well, my answer is frankly, wherever it's most convenient for you. You can find links to buy Launching Financial Grownups on my website, bobbirebell.com, where there are also, by the way, full show notes with relevant links, as well as free transcripts of every episode of the Money Tips For Financial Grownups Podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
I also have one more thank you to those of you who also support this free podcast and my free newsletter, through buying our merch at grownupgear.com. I design every product personally with my incredible team member, Ashley. And yes, we do go with the highest quality materials that we can get. And that does cut our profit margins a bit, and it makes it sometimes a little bit more expensive, but I think it's pretty affordable. All of you have always given us major compliments on what you've gotten from Grownup Gear and I really appreciate that. Especially if you're buying gifts, and gifts can be for yourself, I think it's really important that it be high quality so we're going to stick with that. But, if you do want a discount on your first order, you can use the code Grownup to get 15% off. Thanks again for your support and thanks again to Smart Growth author, Whitney Johnson, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of 100s of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips For Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what, it really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

 
Career, Advice, Authors, Financial Grownup, Productivity, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanWhitney Johnson, Smart Growth, Author, Career, Career Tips, Career Blahs
The Most Essential Grownup Tips for Working Remotely ENCORE
The Most Essential Grownup Tips for Working Remotely ENCORE
 

WFH is not going away. Learn how to love it more- or hate it less without spending any more money than you need with Jill Duffy, author of the Everything Guide to Remote Work

Money Tips

1. You don't need to spend a lot to have a good at-home work setup.

2. We have incredible opportunities to reduce the amount of time we spend in meetings.

3. If you work remotely for an organization, don't skimp on what you ask them to pay for! Learn about what items an employer should be paying for.

 
 

Follow Jill!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm thinking a lot, these days, about financial anxiety and how much we all just want to feel secure about the future for us, and of course, for the people that we love. There's a saying, "You are never happier than your most unhappy child," and I would expand that to, "your most unhappy person you care about." I want everyone who hears this to be able to give the next generation the gift of financial security and the freedom that comes with it. That's why I wrote Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. I'm excited to share it with all of you, and I hope it can help put all generations of your family on the path to reaching all of your financial goals and dreams. Order your copy of Launching Financial Grownups today, and thank you for your support.

Jill Duffy:
The more that you're asked to show up to meetings and be on, have your camera on, have maybe your home environment shown, there's a cost to you in terms of your energy levels.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. You know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this,

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. Welcome to our third week in our grown up career miniseries. This episode is all about specific and practical solutions, including what can we get companies to pay for? It turns out, it may be a lot more than just an ergonomic chair and stuff like that. If you have not already listened to the past couple of episodes, we spoke with Deborah Wheatman of Careers Done Right. She had solutions for how to present ourselves when we want to level up our careers, either where we are or where we want to be.

Bobbi Rebell:
Then last week, I was thrilled to have the brilliant Whitney Johnson back. We focused on how to get past career blahs and how compliments can help us figure out what we should be doing, what we're really good at, and what we can get paid for. And now to round out our grownup career miniseries this week, Jill Duffy, the author of The Everything Guide to Remote Work takes us through the most practical ways to set up our work from home or work from, well, wherever life is taking us, including what we can get for free, and who doesn't love free? Here is Jill Duffy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jill Duffy, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jill Duffy:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think you get the award for one of, if not the most, relevant books this winter of 2022, The Everything Guide to Remote Work, the ultimate resource for remote employees, hybrid workers, and digital NOMADS, which I think covers almost all of us at this point. So, congrats on the book.

Jill Duffy:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's start with the at home setups. They've kind of evolved over the last two years. What are people spending money on that's working out, and what are things that we're, or should be, moving away from?

Jill Duffy:
You can spend as much money as you want on a home office or a home work setup. What you actually need may not be something super expensive. So, you can spend a lot of money if that will make you happy and it will improve your work life, and you can go very, very lean if what you're concerned about is not creating a lot of waste and not spending too much money. So, the basic things you need will probably be some kind of a computer, maybe headphones to help your concentration or to have video call meetings be a little bit better, but then beyond that, it starts to get a little bit more choosy. So, you'll want to have a desk. You'll want to have a chair. Whether you use a chair that's already in your home, or you buy inexpensive office chair, may be up to you.

Jill Duffy:
However, if you work for an employer, you should really ask if they will pay for some of this equipment, especially a chair, because it's necessary, and it's usually a little bit more expensive than the other things you'll need. So, get a good chair that you're comfortable sitting in. I sit in a dining room chair. I had an office chair. I found it wasn't very comfortable. I like this better, and I invested about $30 or $40 in a back cushion. So, a back cushion is a very inexpensive item you can add that makes your setup a little bit more comfortable.

Jill Duffy:
For people who work remotely, but aren't always at home, a good way to use things around the house is to try working from a kitchen table or a dining room table, rather than a desk, if you find that your desk is too high. You don't need to go out and buy a whole new desk, but it turns out that kitchen tables are usually two or three inches lower than the standard desk. So again, rather than buying a new desk or maybe getting a keyboard tray, that would be another solution. Just try using a different table. See if that changes the height of things a little bit for you.

Jill Duffy:
Then if you're really lean and you don't want to invest in a back cushion, you can also use a small towel rolled up in a roll for lumbar support or even just a small pillow in the same kind of way, and then other things, something like a lamp, would be really necessary for people who do paper-based work. If you are an artist, you might need some extra peripherals. I think having external keyboard and a mouse are really, really important. So if you're working from a laptop, you may not have those things already. That's a good one to spend maybe about a hundred dollars on, just to make your wrist and your hands a little bit more comfortable, but if you don't have them and you find working on a laptop is okay, that's perfectly ergonomically correct, because laptops are now thin enough that it's not going to create a huge stress on your wrist joints if you just work on a laptop.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's interesting because we moved home in a frenzy in March of 2020, and we kind of put together our setups thinking they were temporary. Now that many people are thinking that these remote setups, we say work from home, but home has become very loosely defined these days. How has it evolved? Are there things that people should be doing? I mean, you really just talked about very basic things. Okay. People, if they're realizing this is a more permanent situation, how do you up it beyond that? Because I also feel like we could be suckers. I mean, there's a whole industry now that is trying to tell us that we need, like you just talked about, rolling up a towel, but there's many people that will sell you at all price points, all kinds of back support. How much is necessary? I mean, obviously as you said, we can spend infinite money, but should we be rolling our eyes at a lot of this stuff?

Jill Duffy:
Sometimes, I think so. I mean, you could buy a laptop riser or you could stick your laptop on three or four books when you need it to be a little bit higher, which is something people often do for remote work calls. You want your camera to be a little higher. You could buy the expensive chair, or you could go with the back cushion or the towel. There's always a way to trade it off, but I think ultimately, making sure that you're happy and comfortable is really important. So if you're going to invest a little bit of money, think about what items you would want that will actually improve your work from home life or your remote work life and make you happy.

Jill Duffy:
Another place people often spend money is on shared workspaces, so something like a WeWork subscription or even a rental office that you might share with other people or that you might use once a week, and you have another friend use it a couple of other days a week. That will allow you to get out of the house. So for people who find themselves very antsy being at home, being in the same situation all the time, that's a good way to change it up. Before the COVID pandemic, I had a great routine of working two days every week from a coffee shop, and that was sort of my second location. It was a way for me to get away from the same stimuli I was always surrounded by in my home environment, and then COVID really changed that. I didn't go as much.

Jill Duffy:
I think as we're moving into a space where our risks are coming down, people are vaccinated, things have opened up, finding yourself a second place to be is really, really helpful, especially on those days when you just start to feel like you're stagnating. So again, if you have a little bit of money or maybe your employer is supporting you financially, look into a coworking space, look in to an office you might rent, and if you don't, maybe a coffee shop is a good place. Maybe you have a friend or a relative nearby who isn't at home, and you can use their home to work every now and again when you need a little bit of peace and quiet.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a change of scenery is so important. You also talk, in the book, about the fact that meetings have a cost. Part of that is financial, but there's other costs, as well. Can you talk about, both, the financial cost of meetings and then the other things that we don't always fully appreciate?

Jill Duffy:
People get so burned out by meetings, and a lot of studies are showing that they feel more burned out by meetings in the remote work environment, where meetings are often virtual, and the dynamic changes a little bit. The way that people interact changes a little bit. So, people feel like they're always on, and so there's a cost with your energy. The more that you're asked to show up to meetings and be on, have your camera on, have maybe your home environment shown, there's a cost to you in terms of your energy levels, what work you can do after the meeting ends, that time spent ramping up to the meeting, the time spent with winding down from the meeting.

Jill Duffy:
So, I like to think, instead, about the way that we want to take value from a meeting. So rather than say, we used to have meetings in the workspace, let's transfer that online, what we should really say is, "What value do we get from meetings? And is there a better way to do this in a remote work environment" What I've seen in a lot of remote first companies is they start to embrace tools that allow them to replicate parts of the meeting or value that they get from the meeting without actually being on a camera call.

Jill Duffy:
A good example is a shared whiteboard. Let's say you have a weekly or a monthly meeting where people are brainstorming ideas. Rather than wait for the meeting time, where everybody must show up and be there and be on and have energy, give them the shared whiteboard where people can post their ideas at any time that it strikes them, and that way, you can still have a meeting where you discuss it, and you come up with some more ideas, but that allows people to have the time and the space and the energy to think about their ideas and add them when it's right for them, rather than pigeonhole them into this meeting format.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm curious about your take on something that's becoming a little bit controversial with all this online meeting burnout. I have a friend that works for a large corporation, and she has a team that is, at this point, pretty much... It's all virtual, but it's people that were even hired virtually at this point, that they're not people that she knew in the before times, and the frustration is that many of them don't want to turn their cameras on during meetings.

Bobbi Rebell:
Part of it could be the things that you're talking about, that it says take so much energy, but they never turn on their cameras, and she's asking them to, and as a manager, she feels she can't really connect with them. We are recording this. We're only recording the audio, but you and I are looking at each other on camera. I feel it helps us connect and have a better interview, even though we're not in the same place. What's the flip side of that? How do you get people to, when you do meet, turn the cameras on, and is that something that managers are going to start pushing for more, as we keep this remote world and it evolves?

Jill Duffy:
I think about this in two ways. One is the very real situation that you're talking about, that people expect you to have your camera on because they want to connect. The other thing to think about here is that in COVID times, a lot of people were told to work remotely from home without being asked, so it wasn't voluntary. We didn't opt into it. We were told that we had to do it. What I've heard a lot of, especially from women of color, is that they feel it's a deep invasion of privacy to be told that your camera must be on. They're in their home environment. You might not dress up as much as you would if you were presenting yourself in a professional environment. You might have kids or elderly people or people with special needs in your home. You might not want to show what's in your home. You might not just want to do it, because that's really asking a lot of people, and I think we need to be sensitive to that.

Jill Duffy:
I think, hands down, the rule should be, if at any point in time, you need to have your camera off, leave your camera off. The reality is, in the business world, we have expectations that aren't always great placed upon us, and sometimes we do need to turn our cameras on and show up. I would say for people who really don't like to be on camera, try to pick one or two times in regular meetings that you have, where you're willing to have your camera on. You can blur your environment. You can use a background image to create a little bit more privacy. You can swivel your computer setup so that your back is against a plain wall. Don't show the kid mess. Don't show your kitchen. Don't show the art on your wall. You don't have to show those things, but I think we need to give everybody a pass, especially in this time where we've been told to work from home, and we didn't opt into it, that people are allowed to have their privacy when they need it.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good perspective to really process. One last question, before I let you go, Jill. One thing that you talk about in the book is that there are things that we may not know we can ask for our companies to pay for, but they can, and it's they can, and they should. We think of things like, you talked about chairs and this and that. Yeah. We can make the case, they should buy us an ergonomic chair. It may work. It may not. What can we get at companies to pay for these days?

Jill Duffy:
There are a lot of other things. If you think about the amount of time you may have put into learning and networking in the past, such as going on a business trip or a business conference, those are the kinds of things you can ask for in the remote world, too. Maybe it's something like an online business conference or an online learning program, instead, which there are many of, and they're very inexpensive. They're extremely accessible, but those are the kinds of things that you can just say, "Hey, I want to learn more about such and such topic," or, "I think it would advance my career if I learned about this. Would you be willing to pay for it?"

Jill Duffy:
I think it's always a good idea to come forward with a complete plan. So rather than say, "Hey, do we have any money for learning?" You say, "I want to take this particular course. Here's the link to it. Here's a little bit about the instructor and what it would cost when I plan to do it," something like that. Give your manager a reason to say, "Yes," easily. The more that you do the work in advance for them, the easier it is for them to say, "Yes."

Jill Duffy:
I think another compelling point to this is that it doesn't always have to relate directly to your job. If we look at productivity research, we find that people who cultivate interest and expertise in areas outside of their job end up being more productive at work, and there's a lot of theory as to why people sometimes think, "Oh, if you can think outside of the box, because you have different experiences from another world, that's great," but anything from learning to play a musical instrument, to doing artwork, sports, even practicing comedy routines, we found that it does make people more productive. So if you can convince your employer to pay for something that enriches your learning, that maybe isn't directly tied to your work, you could be able to convince them to pay for that, too.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So, everyone who dreams of being a standup comic, you now know you can try to make your case to your boss. Jill, this was great. Tell us, where can we find out more about you and The Everything Guide to Remote Work?

Jill Duffy:
The Everything Guide to Remote Work is on sale now, anywhere that you buy books. Online, I'm on Twitter @JillEDuffy, J-I-L-L-E-D-U-F-F-Y, and I'm also a contributing writer and editor at pcmag.com, where I write a lot about productivity and software and organizing your digital life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Thank you so much.

Jill Duffy:
Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many great takeaways. I love the idea of using just a simple dining chair with a back cushion or even a towel rolled up for lumbar support. Who needs all those fancy things? And of course, just the idea of asking for things from your employers, the worst they can say is, "No." Even then, as things go on, policies may adjust. So, make sure to check in at your job's HR website periodically to see if new benefits pop up. Things are always changing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, I do want to take a minute before we wrap up to say thank you to so many of you. A lot of you have been pre-ordering my book, Launching Financial Grownups, and it is truly appreciated. It is being noticed. If you do, I would love to thank you. So, please DM me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1. That's B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L-1, the number one. Pre-ordering tells online retailers that Launching Financial Grownups is a book that people are interested in, and that will help get it a boost from them. By the way, if it is not in your budget, please reach out to your local library and ask if they will buy a few copies so you can borrow it for free. A big thanks to The Everything Guide to Remote Works, Jill Duffy, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast, is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @Bobbirebell1 on Instagram and BobbiRebell on Twitter, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media, and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcast. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownup gear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself, as well, and most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Advice, Authors, Career, Financial Grownup, Productivity, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJill Duffy, WFH, Work From Home, Remote Work, Working Online, Working Remotely
Top Ways for Grownups to Succeed in the New World of Work
Top Ways for Grownups to Succeed in the New World of Work
 

Kerry Hannon, author of In Control at 50+ shares her tips for all grownups on getting ahead by keeping up no matter what grownup life stage you are in. 

 
 
 
 

Follow Kerry!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.



Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
Kerry Hannon, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Kerry Hannon:
Great to be here. Thanks for the invitation, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
And congratulations on your latest book. It's 14 books you've done. The latest book is In Control at 50+: How to Succeed in the New World of Work. And by the way, you also wrote the book right before this, which is very important, was Great Jobs for Everyone 50+. So this is an emerging category I think that we need to be talking more about. Tell us a little bit about the book, but I also want to hear about the pivot that you made because many people take a pivot into solo careers around the age of 50, sometime in midlife. You just did the opposite and you're now also senior columnist at Yahoo Finance.

Kerry Hannon:
I know. I know it is crazy. I am walking the walk for the older worker, or I should say experienced worker over 50. Bobbi, I was in house for 20 years. I ran my own business for 20 years. And then out of the blue, I got this opportunity at Yahoo Finance earlier this year to come on as a senior columnist. It was just unexpected. I wasn't looking for it, but I was open to new opportunities. And that's what is really magical because it's what I've been telling workers over 50 for years now that they need to be willing to step it up, try new ways of doing things, work with younger bosses, learn new technology. Yep, I got to do all of them in the last couple of months and I'm having a blast. It is absolutely fabulous. But I've done my time in the trenches with Forbes and Money and U.S. News and USA Today. So it's just fun to add this one to my quiver, you know? Yahoo Finance. Woo-hoo!

Bobbi Rebell:
It's great. I'm a huge fan of Yahoo and Yahoo Finance in particular. I have many friends there. It's very interesting because that came so well with this new book, because you are effectively living what you are teaching people to do. And I want to go over some of the tips that you have in the book. And a lot of them, they almost sound obvious but they're not at all obvious. They're things that I never would think to do. And they're so easy and actionable. So for example, and I wonder if you did these things because... Well, you weren't proactively looking. They kind of found you.

Kerry Hannon:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
But if you were proactively looking. One tip you had was to read LinkedIn profiles of people that have the jobs you want. I love that. Tell us more about that and how that plays out and how people would do that. What to search for?

Kerry Hannon:
Yeah, I mean, you're so right, Bobbi. I mean, that is an easy thing we can all do. If you're sort of in that stage where you're looking for something new, you have an idea of the kind of work you want to do, or the company you want to work with, the most important thing is that you have the right skills, right? That you've upskilled, that you've sharpened your skills, added new things. So go to the LinkedIn profiles of people who have jobs that interest you and say, "Huh, what experience do they have? What skills do they have? Do I have those? How can I put those? How do I get that?" Because online virtual education has exploded since the pandemic. You don't have to spend a fortune to pick up new skills. You don't need a master's degree. Just dip in and you can add some new things quite easily these days.

Kerry Hannon:
And so I think that LinkedIn is... I'm a big fan of LinkedIn, if you're a white collar worker particularly. So we got to be clear there. But you can find out who you know at companies where you're interested in working. It's really a great source of research on those kinds of things. But the really simple thing is you look at what those people who have jobs that you're interested, what they have in their summary on LinkedIn, you go, "Oh, that's how they describe what they do. I think maybe I'll go change mine." And you just shift it up, you know? So it's really kind of fun because with LinkedIn, it's so simple to go in and just edit your profile anytime you want to.

Bobbi Rebell:
That said, you also emphasize that you might actually be asked for an old school resume, but you have to really focus on keywords. And this is a time when it's kind of okay to plagiarize in a way to kind of lift exact words. So tell us more about that and why people have to bother, because people might think, "Well, can't they just look at my LinkedIn resume?" I mean, that's what you thought.

Kerry Hannon:
Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it might be true, but it's not always true.

Kerry Hannon:
No. There's bureaucratic process that goes into this hiring stuff. So with HR, you've got to play the game. And the game today is these artificial intelligence platforms that filter out different things because it's one way employers can weed down the number of applications they get. They know they're missing out on good people, but this is the way they do it. So you have to be really game the system the best that you can. And the simplest way, to start at least, is to actually replicate the exact word that was in that job posting. So you may call yourself a project manager, but they're looking for a project director. I don't know. I'm just making that up. But change it to director and go with whatever that word is that they use. And so you have your basic resume already and to go, and you jump into the document and you just create a new one and throw in these new terms that apply to this... Customize it. Bespoke it so to speak.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also advise people to kind of take a different perspective on social media, which many people feel is something that's fun, maybe it's optional and something social, but it also can factor into whether or not you get that job.

Kerry Hannon:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have to be very strategic. Someone's going to Google you. You Googled the company, you found out about the job. You hopefully did your research on the person who's going to interview you and found out some little tidbit about them that's helpful. They're doing the same for you. They're going to go see everything that's out there about you. So if you can, go clean some stuff up, get rid of kooky things on Facebook, or on Twitter you can delete tweets that maybe are political. Just try to stay in your lane.

Kerry Hannon:
And also one thing I found super helpful about social media is it's a great way when you're searching for a job to support other people. It's just not all about you. Look at stories you think are interesting that other people have written or research. Highlight that, share it with your people and tag that person. And they feel like, "Oh wow. They noticed that I did this." It builds a network for you, and a very easy way to do it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I completely agree. And another thing that is not obvious to most people but very easy to do and obvious once we're going to say it, is to pay attention to the photo and other ways that you present yourself visually.

Kerry Hannon:
Yeah, especially as you push 60 or whatever, people go, "Oh, I don't really want to show that photo with me with gray hair or whatever." Get over it. They're going to figure out how old you are. And put a really great energetic picture of yourself up there. And I mean, energetic. Don't be a boring old headshot. Yeah, it can be a headshot, but try to show some personality. I do think it's important. They're going to find a picture of you somewhere, but also hopefully they're going to meet you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. They are going to meet you. But at the same time, just because you're not going to hide who you are, doesn't mean you have to include everything you've ever done. We don't want the four page resume. I mean, you have some advice about sort of being deliberate in how you present your resume.

Kerry Hannon:
Oh, without question. And you know what's funny, Bobbi, I always say, "It's not your obituary. It's an advertisement." So get over it. This is your song and dance time. So let's keep it down to the last 10 years of working, maybe 15, and just a little box saying additional stuff, but highlight the stuff that applies to that job that you're interviewing for. That's, again, why each job has a special resume going that direction, but you need to really customize it for that employer. One great way is just shrink it down, tell stories. We call these CAR stories, challenge, action, result. People love to read narratives. I did this. I brought in a project three months ahead of time. Whatever it is, try to quantify. People love numbers. Hiring managers love numbers. They love little stories. They do not understand titles usually or boring job descriptions.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of people may reach their midlife stage, even frankly it can happen even at the quarter-life stage, let's be honest, and they sort of don't know where they want to go in terms of their life structure and their career because it's all blending together. You have something called the You Bet Your Life exercise where you can kind of figure out where you have the most potential. Tell us about You Bet Your Life.

Kerry Hannon:
Yeah. I got to say I have to give a hat tip to Steve Dalton at Duke University's Fuqua School of Business for that one. Steve is awesome. He shared that with me and I'm owning it too. It's just a quick hit, like what is your best skill? If you have one or two or 10 seconds of maximum, just write it down, what do you think you're very best at in the whole world and maybe you're better than most anybody you know? And that kind of gives you a clue to start figuring out what it is you're really good at and what you like to do. I think these are kind of trying to put the breadcrumbs together. There's a lot of different steps, but one of the first things you need to do is, what are you really good at? And what do you really like to do? And truthfully, most of us are a little oblivious to what we're really good at because we take it for granted. We do actually know what we like to do. So how do you put those two together?

Bobbi Rebell:
And what someone will pay you to do.

Kerry Hannon:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So we had this pandemic and it impacted all of us in different ways, but many ways were sort of universal. Many people have been frustrated with where they were in their jobs and made big changes. But for people, especially midlife and older, you really stress the idea that they should not necessarily be part of the great resignation. Talk a little bit about that.

Kerry Hannon:
Well, I actually call it the great reimagination. A lot of people may have stepped away from the workplace during the pandemic for a lot of reasons. I mean, caregiving is a big one and it's not just for kids. I mean, for me, I had my 91-year old mom living with me and she had dementia. My sister and I traded her back and forth, but it was really hard. I was hanging by a shoestring. If I had been working full time for an employer, I would've probably had to step away. So there were many reasons people stepped away. But what it did is it provided an opportunity to rethink work. It's not like they never want to work again or they never want to work even for that particular company where they were working, but they need flexibility. They need to find ways that they can balance.

Kerry Hannon:
We all, in the pandemic, did that in our MRI. We're like, "What are our priorities? What matters to us? Is it our family? Is it time that we spend doing hobbies or volunteering, giving back?" There's lots of things that go into our life. And we started to... Some of us, at the later stages of some of my readers, is you realize you have more yesterdays than tomorrows. And so this is where you, "Let's put pedal to the metal and make life matter."

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you know whether it's time to retire, resign, whatever, or to kickstart a new phase of your career or a different kind of career? How can you sort of figure out the balance there?

Kerry Hannon:
Yeah, Bobbi, that's a real tough one, because retiring, I hate that word altogether because that's like stepping away and you're... Ugh. At this stage of life, everyone should be eager to step forward to do new things. And so I think this is really a gut check, but the most important piece of it is something that you know all about is financial fitness. And if you're financially secure... And I write my book about how that is a big part of my fitness program is financial fitness, and if you are financially secure, you can make these kinds of decisions. You can choose to step off the rabbit... My brother calls it the pony at the state fair going around in circles. You can stop doing that, but you can move to do something else that might not pay as much as that primary career did, but it's something that you're using your skills that matters to you.

Kerry Hannon:
I do think debt is the biggest dream killer and the biggest stumbling block to starting your own business. People at this age, I mean, entrepreneurship is hot. I mean, it lit up for the over 50 set after the pandemic. It had already started. But self-employment and entrepreneurship is just booming for this category because people say, "Guess what? I want to be my own boss. I want to be in control. And this is what I've always wanted to do." But in order to do that, they had to be financially fit, because otherwise it's a recipe for disaster.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I just want to add the other two parts of that. You really have a three part fitness plan, financially fit, physically fit, and spiritually fit. People can read that in the book. Because we're going to wrap up, I want to give people a teaser so they can read it. It's on page 47, everyone.

Kerry Hannon:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. In control at 50+. Kerry Hannon, where can people find out more about you and the book?

Kerry Hannon:
Oh, thanks Bobbi. My website is the best. It's kerryhannon.com. K-E-R-R-Y-H-A-N-N-O-N.com. I'm on Twitter at @kerryhannon and on LinkedIn, so check in.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Kerry Hannon:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think my favorite thing about Kerry's tips is that they're always so easy to do once we are made aware of them, just like copying those keywords so the computer picks up your resume, and making sure your picture is on point. So what were your top tips from Kerry? What did you like the best? I'd love to know. Please DM me on instagram, @bobbirebell1, or on Twitter, @bobbirebell, and be sure to go to my website, @bobbirebell.com for the transcript and show notes from this and every episode and to sign up for the newsletter.

Bobbi Rebell:
My latest book Launching Financial Grownups is out. If you do choose to buy it, which I would love if you did, buy it for yourself, buy it for your friend, great graduation present, for the parents. If you do, please leave a review on Amazon. I truly appreciate it. I love doing this and your support doing things as simple as leaving a review on Amazon, it's free. That is what makes this all worth it for me. Big thanks to Kerry Hannon for making us all financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, @bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 one on Instagram, and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Advice, AuthorsBobbi Rebell KaufmanKerry Hannon, Author, Success, LinkedIn
Money Tips for Self-Made Bosses
Money Tips for Self-Made Bosses
 

Learn the best advice, hacks and lessons to be your own self-made boss from top small business owners with authors Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg

 
 
 
 

Follow Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg!

Follow Bobbi!


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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. This episode is sponsored by UNest. Start investing in your most important asset, your kids, with UNest. Soon you will also be able to give the gift of crypto. Join the UNest legacy wait list and get early access entry into giveaways and much more. Visit unest.co for more information.

Lauren Weinberg:
If you're in the food business, he talks about using a smaller plate when you're taking pictures of food, what time of day, how to capture the best light. He really goes into a lot of specific details, because if you think about social channels and all these places where people are getting information or where they're viewing content from business owners, the better you can put your brand out there with photography and how you portray things, the more likely you are to connect and breakthrough.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because you know what? Grownup life is really hard. But, together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
The money is in the details. If you want to succeed in business, my friends, wise words from Lauren Weinberg. She is the co-author of a new book, Self-Made Boss, that had me both smiling and taking notes as I read it. The other author is a longtime friend of mine, Jackie Reses. We went to Penn together, where we were also Tri Deltas.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jackie and Lauren met while working at Yahoo, and then worked together at Square, where they spent a lot of time with small business owners and entrepreneurs. Now they have come together with their first book, hopefully one of many, Self-Made Boss: Advice, Hacks, and Lessons from Small Business Owners.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview, we cover how businesses can leverage technology to connect more with customers, a great story about a pet-grooming business that you will definitely want to hear, upping the ante on the employee experience, creating an employee culture ... Super important these days when there's a lot of competition for workers, so you want to keep the good ones ... and how to set your company up to pass on to the next generation, although you also need to figure out if you even should.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here are Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg. Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg, you are both financial grownups. Welcome to the podcast.

Jackie Reses:
Thank you for having us.

Lauren Weinberg:
Yes, thanks for having us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Congrats on the book Self-Made Boss: Advice, Hacks, and Lessons from Small Business Owners. By the way, this is extra special because Jackie is a dear friend of mine going back to our days at University of Pennsylvania, where we were roommates and even, dare I say, Tri Delta sorority sisters. Oh my gosh. All right, before we get into the advice that you have for our listeners, you both met working at big companies. Tell us more about how you met and how this book was born.

Jackie Reses:
Sure. So we had the pleasure of meeting at Yahoo. We were both executives who ran the company. We then moved from Yahoo to Square. Lauren, I'll speak for you right now and just keep going for a second, and then you can introduce yourself.

Jackie Reses:
So Lauren is the chief marketing officer of Square. So wow, wow, wow. Incredible. And I ran banking and lending at Square and also the people team. And so, we had the benefit of working at a company that focuses on empowering small businesses and helping them start, run, and grow.

Jackie Reses:
And so, the idea was born out of listening to customers through the millions of Square sellers across the country, particularly in a pandemic, when we saw how much trauma was happening in the small business market. We understood some insights around how small businesses build community and learn and we thought this book would be an incredibly powerful guide to help them build their business.

Lauren Weinberg:
Yeah. I don't have too much to add to that other than, yes, Jackie and I met at Yahoo. We also were both New Yorkers who moved to California. So we shared that journey together of just moving our families across the country. We spent time in California walking around, because there was really nothing else you could do during the pandemic. We thought there's just this void of information.

Lauren Weinberg:
We also had the insight that more people than ever were starting their own businesses. That was true in 2020, where we saw more new business formations, and then again in 2021, where you have the great resignation where people aren't just leaving their jobs to sit home all day. They're leaving their jobs to go and start businesses.

Lauren Weinberg:
We thought, wow, anytime that there's these downturns in the economy or things are changing is a time where we tend to see a lot of innovation and new starts. And so, we thought the timing for putting a book like this out there with this kind of advice would be a good moment for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, it was definitely a good moment, and you have a very optimistic tone, Lauren. I love that. Self-Made Boss also is a book ... Even though it is definitely a business book, it is very practical, it is very specific, but it's driven by personality and it is a book that is joyous. There's a lot of fun stories in here. So I want to ask each of you, what was the funniest story in the book where you just couldn't help but smile?

Jackie Reses:
Yeah, I'll start. One of the things we really enjoyed about the book is that it's written through the eyes of small business owners, and each chapter is a business chapter like HR, finance, hiring, operations, and logistics, legal matters. But each chapter is told through the eyes of four or five small businesses in each chapter and also a handful of experts in each chapter.

Jackie Reses:
There's one in particular that I really enjoyed, and the entrepreneurs' names are Keith and Patricia Miller from Pampered Pooch Playground and Bubbly Paws in Minneapolis. You listen to Keith and Patricia, and it was Keith who I spent the most time with, talk about how they build their team at a grooming shop ... Grooming shops, because they now have a few, in Minneapolis. He had incredible insight in how he focuses on fun and teamwork and creating an environment that feels safe for the dogs, safe for dog customers, and also safe for his employees.

Jackie Reses:
And so, I loved his ideas. One really simple one in building trust was he took a video of the dog getting groomed while it was getting groomed. He saw so many advantages in this idea. From a dog owner's point of view, they could see how their dog behaved during grooming, which could be a trying time for some dogs. The dog obviously felt safe because they were going to be streamed to their owner. For his employees, they felt safe so that they could also show their work. If anything went wrong, they could show what happened. It was a great experience. They could show that as well.

Jackie Reses:
And so, it's kind of like one of those things that you would never think of, but it's a really interesting business hack that he created in the context of his grooming store.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that it's using technology to make it more human and more ... I don't know what you call it with the animal, but you know what I mean. It's connecting people. Lauren, do you have a fun story?

Lauren Weinberg:
I would say that Germanee G. is somebody that really stands out to me, because she epitomizes this idea of following your passion and your dreams. So she had this great job, corporate job, at Gap and she left that job to go become a stylist. She now splits her time between Atlanta and LA. I think just hearing about her saving up her money and just getting ready to take that leap of faith is just really cool, because to me it really, I think, just epitomizes that entrepreneurial spirit that we try to capture in the book and just how she really went for it to go pursue her dreams.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also so relatable because so many people do have these dreams. One thing in the book that I liked is that nothing was too small. You get into some very tiny decisions, but they are very important decisions. So can you share what the most overlooked thing, or one of the overlooked things, that many business owners forget to pay attention to that's really important, it moves the needle?

Lauren Weinberg:
I'll talk about two things to start with. I think one is just the entire look and feel of your business. I think thinking about your business from the notion that every touchpoint that somebody has with your store, what does your window look like? What does it look like when you walk through the door? If you have an online business, your website, your logo, your presence, every interaction that somebody has with your brand is a chance for them to make an impression and form a relationship with you. And so, I would just say all of those details really matter.

Lauren Weinberg:
And so, thinking about them from the very beginning of your business is really important. Then along those lines, we talked to Aundre Larrow in our marketing chapter and he is a photographer. He gave all these like very specific tips on how to take great pictures.

Lauren Weinberg:
So if you're in the food business, he talks about using a smaller plate when you're taking pictures of food, what time of day, how to capture the best light. He really goes into a lot of specific details, because I think if you think about social channels and all these places where people are getting information or where they're viewing content from business owners, the better you can put your brand out there with photography and how you portray things, the more likely you are to connect and breakthrough.

Lauren Weinberg:
So I thought the tips that he provided in there were really very specific, very detailed, and extremely actionable. Like don't take pictures outside in the middle of the day when it's sunny, but do take pictures inside when there's indirect sunlight. Just really practical tips that anyone can use on their own.

Jackie Reses:
I thought some of the financial advice was really helpful also, and just tiny decisions you might make at the very beginning of starting a company. For example, don't combine your business account and your personal account in terms of business accounts. A lot of small business owners, when they start to make it easy on themselves, they conflate the two. But there are a lot of downstream effects that could impact their business just by that one simple decision.

Jackie Reses:
And so, now there are lots of places, particularly online, where you can open up an online business account for free, and then get a lot of the technical tools that help support lots of other analytical decisions you can have.

Jackie Reses:
And so, the reason why you don't want to combine the accounts is if you ever want to get credit, it's hard to take apart your business account and your personal account. When you have to deal with taxes, it makes it more complicated. You're going to spend a headache's worth of time dealing with taxes. You might need to position your company to raise money at some point in the future. It just looks sloppy. Then you clearly have to do a separate accounting. Then you might also need trades and have to do trade invoicing and things like that.

Jackie Reses:
And so, you're going to have to start separating because they're going to want to get credit. They're going to want to see your different elements of your business operating independently.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was the number one hack each of you learned from the self-made bosses that you interviewed, ideally something that you guys ... Even though you have a big, strong history in small business which people can read about in the book, what did you learn?

Lauren Weinberg:
I think Jackie talked about Keith Miller and Bubbly Paws. I think that they were really ahead of their time when it came to just thinking about culture and employee benefits for small business owners. I think a lot of business owners are contending with this fact now, like how do we retain employees?

Lauren Weinberg:
Keith was bringing cupcakes for employees on their birthdays. He was doing engagement surveys. He was offering employees mats to stand on so that their feet were more comfortable throughout the day. I think in a lot of ways, those are really simple things, but not always things that small businesses have front and center when they're thinking about their employee experience.

Lauren Weinberg:
So that was definitely one that I thought, wow, he had the hiring and culture part of the business down in a way that I think a lot of businesses are really trying to get their head around in the moment.

Jackie Reses:
Yeah. Pete Stein, the oyster farmer that you had talked about, he hacked software. So he wanted to optimize his operations and he used bus software in order to build his own optimized routes. And so, it doesn't have to be something super complicated. You can go out and try to find a proxy for what you're trying to do.

Jackie Reses:
My comment before was go find a free online business savings and checking account. In this case, he optimized his utilization. And so, if you're really creative about some of these systems, you can do it in a cheaper way if you need to and have it done more quickly. I think that kind of creativity is great.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Last question. We talk a lot on this podcast about generational wealth. What is your advice to families who want to pass a small business to the next generation? Because it is complicated.

Lauren Weinberg:
It is complicated. I think a couple of things. One is to make sure that you have family members that want to take on your business. We heard a lot from business owners that just didn't have anybody to pass their business on to. So I think that's something that getting your family members involved in, making sure that the interest is there.

Lauren Weinberg:
Then when it does come time to transition, I would say give up some control. I think one of the things we learned from a lot of the people that we interviewed in the book that come from multi-generational businesses is that when the next generation could come in and they were given more free reign to think about how they would change the business operation, that that really helps the business evolve.

Lauren Weinberg:
So one example is with Acme Smoked Fish. That was the company that I talked about with my roommate from college. It's fourth generation. Her brother came in and said, "We really need to upgrade how we think about manufacturing. We have a smoked fish company." At the time, it felt like a huge risk to them, and it ended up becoming the thing that really helped propel their business into the next phase of growth.

Lauren Weinberg:
I think the same thing is true with Pesso's Ice Cream, where they were really starting to think about using data. They used to have 132 flavors and they realized they don't need 132 flavors, that they could have 30 flavors and that those 30 flavors are the most popular, that really cuts down on the amount of time that they spend then producing ice cream flavors that are less popular.

Lauren Weinberg:
So I would say make sure that you, a, have the people there that have the interest. Then give them the room to do things in a little bit of a different way, which does require giving up some control, which is hard to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jackie, by the way, oh, your parents had a small business that you did not take over.

Jackie Reses:
Oh me? Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh yeah.

Jackie Reses:
No, I definitely was not taking over my family's small business. I think I'm the only person in my family to not work for myself. I did come from a small business family, and I appreciated some of the upsides and downsides of working with people that you can't fire and they are part of your family.

Jackie Reses:
And so, the message that I would add to this ... And I think about Jonathan Sciabica from Sciabica Family California Olive Oil and Gourmet Foods. Literally his grandfather and great-grandfather began the business with information they had pulled coming from Italy. The insight from him was to think about rules for how you're going to work together. Think about who decides what and how do you operate.

Jackie Reses:
I think that was really good advice he gave us so that you could try to minimize the ambiguity in how you make decisions and how you operate together. And so, people had their roles. Sometimes in family business, that can be incredibly challenging because you have, I'll call it, sloppy decisions. But where you don't make sloppy decisions and you're very specific about who does what, who decides, it can help alleviate some of that family tension.

Bobbi Rebell:
Excellent advice. Thank you both for joining us. Where can people learn more about you guys and Self-Made Boss?

Jackie Reses:
Well, they absolutely should go to our website, selfmadeboss.com. They can go onto Amazon or any independent book seller, if they prefer that, and look up Self-Made Boss. Hopefully they will enjoy the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you both.

Lauren Weinberg:
Thank you.

Jackie Reses:
Thank you so much for having us.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many great stories we couldn't get to. So even if you are not a small business owner, read this book, just for the entertainment value and the amazing stories these self-made bosses share with Jackie and Lauren.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what resonated with you in the interview? DM me on Instagram, @bobbirebell1, or on Twitter, @bobbirebell. Please share this podcast on social media, or just tell a friend, so we can grow the Financial Grownup community.

Bobbi Rebell:
I also want to thank those you who have reviewed my new book Launching Financial Grownups wherever, maybe Amazon, maybe Goodreads, and have shared it on social media. Please let me know when you do through all the social channels, and I would love to thank some of you. I'll surprise you with some Grownup Gear merch, which, by the way, you can check out at grownupgear.com to celebrate all of the adulting moments in your life.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, if you are looking for someone to speak to your company or your school or your parent group, please get in touch. Just go to my website, super easy, bobbirebell.com, and click on the Work with Me tab, or you can also get a Grownup Gear discount by signing up for the newsletter.

Bobbi Rebell:
Big thanks to Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg, authors of Self-Made Boss. Pick up a copy. Thanks to both of them for helping us be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Advice, Authors, Business, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Money, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJackie Reses, Lauren Weinburg, Self-Made Boss
Answering the question I keep being asked by young adults and parents
Answering the question I keep being asked by young adults and parents
 

In this week’s episode Bobbi answers the question she is getting asked the most after the release of her new book “Launching Financial Grownups”


 
 

Follow Bobbi!


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Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

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Full Transcript:

Hi grownups!

I hope everyone is enjoying the spring and spending lots of time with their friends and family- hopefully staying healthy and having time with our loved ones in person. 

I’ve been enjoying getting out as well- and getting to share my new book: Launching Financial Grownups. Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids be Everyday Money Smart. In fact when this episode is released I will be in Los Angeles both for some speaking engagements and also getting to spend time with friends I have not seen since the before times. I’m so excited to get back out there in person. 

It’s been about a month since Launching Financial Grownups was released and it’s been so interesting seeing what people react to- a lot of people have related to my specific tips about teaching the next generation about money and also enjoyed the not always conventional  advice from the experts I was able to interview for the book including Tori Dunlap from her first 100k and financial therapist Dr. Brad Klontz. 

But there is one question that I keep getting when people learn about the book. And I have been surprised because I thought it was something people were more aware of - it wasn’t something I came up with myself and it wasn’t something that I thought would surprise anyone or really be that interesting. In fact it was kind of a last minute decision to expand the section in the book that talks about it. 

The question everyone has been asking is why do parents these days have such a harder time than their parents did- is there something different going on or are we just bad at this parenting thing even though we seem to be trying so much harder?

The last part of that question is the one that really gets everyone frustrated- should be we BETTER at parenting since we are paying so much more attention to it. I mean when we were coming of age, our parents didn’t pay nearly as much attention to us. They certainly didn’t spend as much money on us- and once we were out of school whether it was high school or college they just kind of let us figure it out. 

We’re working so hard to set our kids up for success. Many of us prioritize education and frankly almost any kid related expense over almost anything that seems indulgent or even wanted for us. And yet, their childhood seems to be endless. 

It’s even become a thing on social media. So many parents of early 20 something joke about the fact that their almost adult kids just don’t seem to leave the nest- financially. And the next generation is not shy about embracing their endless adolescence- joking that they are “adulting” as if doing something adult like in their 20’s is a game and they aren’t actually adults. 

But this didn’t just happen.

Parents are financially tied to their kids for longer for some very specific reasons. Here are some of them. 

First: The Affordable Care Act- aka Obamacare allows our offspring to be on our health insurance until age 26. So that often creates a financial tie in the family until age 26- boom- how do you cut off your kid when you are paying their health insurance. That discussion never happened when anyone who is a parent of a 20 something was growing up . 

Ok you’re saying- just limit it at that. But there are other things parents often pay for that also literally did not exist when we were growing up. Let’s talk about the cell phone bill. If it costs $100 for your kid to have their own bill- and your bill doesn’t go up much- maybe $25 to keep them on- you probably are going to do the math and keep them on there at least until they are .. say 26.. when that health insurance tie happens. But time slides- let’s just way a recent bit political investigation turned up a high ranking former presidential aide that was still on his parents phone bill. Google it. 

And who among us is going to take their kid off their Netflix and other streaming services if it literally costs nothing to keep them on. 

All of this is not bad- but it is something that keeps their finances tied to ours, and better for it. 

We’re closer to our kids and frankly tend to be more involved in their lives thanks to technology. When we were dropped off at college we could use a payphone to call home.. at some point. If we had a question about a life skill- we tended to ask around or figure it out. Now the answer is just a text away. Also a quick text away- money. As in, they can get money to us immediately. No waiting for a check in the mail. Which is a good thing because most young people haven’t even really dealt with physical checks. 

The point being- we’re there so solve their problems- instantly - and there’s a lot of good with that- but it also undermines their ability to develop their own solutions- financial or otherwise. 

And they need us more than ever because corporate America - for all it’s talk of upgrading the workplace - is also relying more on contract workers and many of our kids spend their first years in the gig economy- so they don’t have that structure that helped many of us feel like adults. They don’t have income reliability so how can they manage to have their own home- rented or owned. Ditto that for really being able to save up to live somewhere NOT their parents home. 

Which goes a long way to explain why so many of this generation of emerging adults live at home- which used to have a stigma. But will trillions in student debt and minimal wage gains relative to inflation- who can blame them. 

It’s a lot falling on our young adults- and in turn on us. 

So I’m glad we are all gaining a new appreciation of the challenges facing our young adult kids- and so we can understand how we can help them embrace being adults and move past the gamification of adulting. 

If this makes sense to you- I know you will really get a lot out of Launching Financial Grownups and I hope you will check it out. 

In the meantime I’m also giving some tips and having a little fun at my own expense over on Tik Tok- I keep it simple - the handle is just my name.. as it is on all social media except instagram which is bobbirebell1 - DM me or leave a comment on any of the social platforms with your ideas on how to tackle these challenges- whether you are a young adult or a parent- or if you just care about a young adult in your life. 

Also a reminder- if you are celebrating a big milestone this spring- graduation, mothers day, fathers day, an engagement or a big birthday- great gifts are available at grownupgear.com

Thanks so much as always for joining me as we all learn to be financial grownups. 

 
Advice, Authors, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanQuestions Answered, Young Adults, Parents, Parenting, Parenthood, Money, Money Advice
Breaking format! How synthetic biology is impacting luxury handbags, preventing hangovers, innovating skincare products and creating next-level diets with futurist Amy Webb
Breaking format! How synthetic biology is impacting luxury handbags, preventing hangovers, innovating skincare products and creating next-level diets with futurist Amy Webb
 

Futurist Amy Webb, co-author of The Genesis Machine, explains how money influences the development synthetic biology, and the risks we need to be aware of before it is too late. 







 
 

Follow Amy!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends, a big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to rate because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. And I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you. So, first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest. And it was a lot of work, but I really love doing it and I'm really happy with how it came out. On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So, I truly appreciate it and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Amy Webb:
Hermès, they've got a bag coming out this year made of something that looks exactly like leather but is made out of a synthetic process. So, it's not like chemical-based, it's totally organic. It's just engineering cells to produce something different. That's going to retail for $4,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups. Because you know what, grownup life is really hard, but together, we got this. Hey grownups, we are going off script today for an epic topic because futurist Amy Webb is my guest. She is going to share information that you have not heard before but that we all need to be paying attention to because it is going to change everything you think you know literally about life. She basically reveals a lot about where money goes in our society. What is getting funded is going to shape the very genetics of humans in the future. It also, by the way, could mean the end of hangovers and diets.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, look out for $4,000 plus Hermès bags not even made of leather. Yes, you heard that right. Now, at first, Amy's new book, The Genesis Machine: Our Quest to Rewrite Life in the Age of Synthetic Biology, which he co-wrote with scientist Andrew Hessel, may sound a bit intimidating, I certainly was. But I promise you, after our conversation, you're going to go out, you're going to get the book and you're going to read it. And by the way, she has many different accolades but Amy Webb is the founder and CEO of the Future Today Institute and a professor at NYU. Let's just get into it. Here is The Genesis Machine author, Amy Webb. Hey, Amy Webb, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Amy Webb:
Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
That is, in this case, sort of besides the point because I am having you on for reasons that are about money but also at a new level. Money plays a big role in the topic we're going to talk about, which is synthetic biology. We're going to get to that in a minute. But first, I want to just put it out there. Your futurist, your latest book is called The Genesis Machine: Our Quest to Rewrite Life in the Age of Synthetic Biology. It's about an emerging technology that's going to allow us basically to edit and design new forms of life. So, set us up here. Tell us about what all this means.

Amy Webb:
Sure. And I should qualify maybe, futurist sounds like a strange job title and so it could be easy to dismiss. Me, if I have to say, I would too. That's a ridiculous made-up sounding job title. My academic background is game theory in economics. This is a branch of research called strategic foresight. And so, we use data and build out models to try to see what's happening in the present and anticipate what could happen in the future. So, I just bring that up first because this is kind of a weird book. It's a book about the technology that pretty soon is going to allow us to edit, redesign, or totally design from scratch new forms of life. And that's important because it gives us the ability to deal with existential threats like climate change, we just got some pretty horrifying news from the UN a couple days ago, and also to manage and mitigate novel pathogens.

Amy Webb:
So, we've got risks on the horizon, but this is the same technology that helps us potentially improve the human condition and improve longevity. The book is about this area of science that kind of incorporates gene editing, and DNA sequencing, and synthetic biology. These are new relatively areas of science and tech that combines engineering, and design, and computer science. And essentially, what this allows researchers to do is to program biology the way that you might program a computer. If you kind of forgot what you learned in biology class in high school, it's totally fine because this book is written for everyday people to understand what's coming because what's coming is it is enormous. I think 10 years from now, we're going to look back at this moment in time and be able to see how clearly things were changing right before our eyes. I think we're going to eventually be talking about synthetic biology the way we talk about AI today.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this is, in fact, has a lot in common with AI which you covered in your previous book, including the story of where the money flows. Can you talk a little bit about the fact that a lot of science is very underfunded but yet it's interesting who is funding this and what money is going into this and what purpose that's going to have in the future.

Amy Webb:
Right. So, everybody's thinking about NFTs in the metaverse right now, but this is kind of a really interesting area that some big unusual names are paying very close attention to. Bill Gates is a big proponent of this tech and a big investor in this space. But so is Eric Schmidt. Eric Schmidt, as some of you probably know, used to be the head of Google. One of the things that's interesting is that there's actually kind of an overlap between the VCs, and the hedge funds, and a lot of the investment community that funds AI, and those who are funding the future of synthetic biology, as strange as that sounds. I can give you a concrete example. In part because of SARS-CoV-2, which is the virus that causes COVID-19, this acted as a catalyst. Suddenly, everybody was trying to find a way to test and diagnose and then treat this horrible pathogen.

Amy Webb:
But that had some interesting knock-on effects. I think it was like two weeks ago, some biotech veterans raised $3 billion, that is billion with a B, to create a new company called Altos Labs on the premise that the fundamental machinery of life, which is cells, can be reprogrammed. If they raised $3 billion, think of what the valuation, the pitch must be. I mean, it's like incomprehensible. I bring this up just to say this is not a bunch of weirdos playing biohacker in their garage. This is real stuff and this is on a long time horizon, and there are majors in the space that are investing. But also, Google has a division dedicated to research in this space, so does Microsoft. Microsoft is trying to figure out how to use DNA as a storage device, which is kind of insane, right? But they're working in this space too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah and I should say what you mean is to store data inside of DNA-

Amy Webb:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
... which is bananas. One of my favorite parts of the book is you talk about the futures and you talk about different scenarios of how this could be used in our practical lives. And when you think about those scenarios, you think, "What would people pay for this?" For example, you talk about the idea of no longer having hangovers, of no longer having to diet when you want to lose weight because of the things that we can do to our food and to the way that we consume food. Tell us more about that, because to me, that's an investment I want to make-

Amy Webb:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
... both as a consumer, I want that technology, and also as an investor.

Amy Webb:
Right. On the consumer side of things, I think it's worth noting that you can already get an entire genome sequenced for less than the cost of a pair of Nike Air Jordans. And that's pretty spectacular that prices come down by orders of magnitude since the first human genome, with the first draft was completed in the early 2000s. What does that mean? That means that a lot of people are sending off their samples to 23andMe and similar types of services, which pre-COVID probably was a select few. But in the age of COVID, we're used to giving our DNA samples to anybody who feels like, literally in New York City, I had to get a COVID test a couple months ago and I went to a guy in a van. And I was like, "Yeah, take my data. I guess that's what we're doing now," which is terrifying at any rate.

Amy Webb:
There's just this entire economy that's blossoming, that's blossoming now, but there's some practical reasons why. So, with regard to Microsoft, at some point, our computers can only get so small and they can only get so powerful. And we also have a geopolitical problem because most of our semiconductors come from a troubled region of the world. So, I think some of what's going on here is, can we reduce some of the soul-crushing uncertainty of our supply chains? And can we shrink components down to like nanoscale? Which again, I know it sounds insane, but there's a company called Roswell Technology that just did this. They just made an announcement of the world's first molecular chip. It has 16,000 sensors on it, smaller than the size of a fingernail. It makes use of biology as a computing platform.

Amy Webb:
So, again, I know all this sounds crazy, but their practical reasons that we describe in the scenarios, obviously, this changes food. It means that a couple of Super Bowls from now, the 1.45 billion with a B chicken wings that we consume on a single day in the United States won't have to come from 750,000 chickens. We could get it all out of a bioreactor. And bioreactors could be in every town and every city so it drastically shorten supply chains. In the beauty space, that's actually a pretty mature area where this research is already being applied, so just different approaches to products that make your cells work for you versus a cream or something that layers on top of your skin and doesn't really solve any problems to totally different ways that were going to produce materials.

Amy Webb:
I've seen some leather already that is made out of mycelium. It's made out of the fibrous material that connects mushrooms. And you would never know the difference. In fact, Hermès, I don't, obviously I carry many Hermès's bags. I don't know how to say that correctly, I'm not fancy. They've got a bag coming out this year made of something that looks exactly like leather but is made out of a synthetic process. So, it's not like chemical-based, it's totally organic. It's just engineering cells to produce something different. That's going to retail for $4,000, I think.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. So wait, so just to circle back though in terms of the not gaining weight and in terms of the not having a hangover, because I know people want to hear that.

Amy Webb:
Yeah. So, there is a product, I think it's in the market already, it's an enzyme. It's kind of like functions a little bit like a probiotic. So, the idea is before were a night out drinking, you would take this enzyme and probably still get pretty drunk if that's what you were trying to do but it would prevent the after effects, the hangover part. But what's really interesting is, couldn't you just engineer a molecular whiskey or like a bioengineered wine to have that enzyme side of it already so that you just don't suffer those ill effects afterwards? And that research is underway and you can already buy some functional beverages that are hoping to do some of that.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the dieting?

Amy Webb:
The dieting is something that people are looking at. That one's a little bit more tricky because there is what causes hunger and then there's the mental, like the part of you that wants to eat, so there's deeply rooted psychological things that have to do with that as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, it's out there but it's a longer timeline. All right. We don't have that much time left and I want to touch on risks. You talk about nine risks in the book. We can't go out to all of them. But one thing that I find fascinating is that you talked about, we gave our DNA to these random trucks on the street to get these tests for COVID. We leave DNA all over the place. And this is true, for example, you talked about the example of CEOs. They leave DNA all over the place. Someone could program, could somehow take the DNA and you could explain this better than I can, but they can be a little bit mischievous. Talk through that scenario of what could happen and how this could affect the company if the CEO's health is compromised through having their DNA effectively stolen.

Amy Webb:
Right. So, I know this sounds insane, but if you recall, President Macron of France met with Putin just before Russia started its attack and he refused to have a COVID test because he didn't want his data housed within Russia. And some people made fun of him but he was really smart to do that. A couple of years ago, there was a artists collective/activists collective that said that after WEF, so after the World Economic Forum Meeting in Davos, I was actually at that one, I'm assuming that I am nowhere near important enough that anybody went around to collect my stuff, my data, but they collected used napkins and coffee cups and things from world leaders and scraped the DNA off, had it sequenced and said, "We're going to auction off your sequences to the highest bidder."

Amy Webb:
Now, that is challenging to do but it's not impossible to do. And it does beg the question, "If I have your sequence, can I engineer something, some type of virus that is maybe not deadly but is debilitating?" And if you, as a CEO or you as a global leader had like chronic stomach pain or chronic diarrhea or something like that, the question I ask is, "Well, what fiduciary responsibility do you have to report that to your board and to shareholders and what do you do about it?" I mean, that's one of these weird questions, but we're already starting to see malware show up in sort of new ways and new forms of corporate espionage that involve biology. And it's not out of the realm of possibility that we could start seeing biological malware enter the mainstream here and there, which is kind of scary.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's really scary. Okay, I'm going to pivot one last quick question.

Amy Webb:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Not a very smooth transition, but I know there's already ETFs out there that people can invest in.

Amy Webb:
Oh yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Can you share a little bit about how people can invest in this space?

Amy Webb:
Yeah. And I want to be clear, I'm not specifically making investment advice, but there are ETFs, there's also a lot of thematic investing, Cathie Wood's ARK capital management or is it ARK investments? So, synthetic biology is a big piece and they have an ETF. Franklin Templeton launched an ETF. So, there are funds that exist and they're performing pretty well, but there's also individual companies that either IPOed or SPACed. So, Ginkgo Bioworks is an example of the latter but they're performing pretty well. They make custom microbes. Twist Bioscience is a really interesting company. It's an infrastructure company and those are always good to look at when a new ecosystem is forming.

Bobbi Rebell:
Very, very interesting. And by the way, if anyone wants a little more incentive to buy Amy's book, there is more information on page 96. So, you got to go to the book to get more info. Amy, this has been amazing. Tell us more about where people can find out more about you. I know your book is available everywhere.

Amy Webb:
Thank you. The book's available everywhere. Independent local bookstore is terrific but it's also available on Amazon and Walmart and everywhere books are sold online. And if you're interested in trends and what's on the horizon, all of our work is open source and freely available to download at the futuretodayinstitute.com. We've got our 15th annual Tech Trends Report launching in about two weeks at South By South West. And there are, I guess you're the first to know this, we have 574 trends this year spread across 13 individual volumes and like 20 different industries. So, it's pretty enormous.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Well, thank you so much for being here on Financial Grownup and good luck with everything. Thank you.

Amy Webb:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, friends, I'll admit it, I am a little obsessed with this Hermès bag is going to be and whether it will be like synthetic diamonds where it is still not considered real or whether because it's so cool and new it's going to be considered something better than I guess what we would say the real thing was. This stuff is so cool. I also really found it interesting that we can all invest in synthetic biology. Let me know if you're going to do that. This episode was pretty intense, but I hope you enjoyed it. I usually cut interviews down but I did not want to have you guys miss anything I had to say. So, it is really all there and there is so much more in her book. So definitely, pick up Amy's book, The Genesis Machine. Check out the Future Today Institute for more incredibly cool info.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's so generous that they make everything open source, so cool. If you enjoyed this episode, please share on social. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 if you do so. And big social media news, I started a TikTok channel. I have no idea what I'm doing so please follow me for all the cringiest videos ever. Super easy to find, just Bobbi Rebell, that is my TikTok handle. Thank you to everyone buying my book, Launching Financial Grownups, and for leaving reviews on Amazon. Algorithms pick up on that stuff so I really need your support. Please leave an Amazon review. Loved having Amy Webb of the Future Today Institute on talking about her latest bestseller, The Genesis Machine, and thanks Amy for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what, it really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Authors, Financial Grownup, Health + Fitness, Money, Personal Finance, Productivity, Technology, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanAmy Webb, Future Today Institute, The Genesis Machine, CEO
5 Tips to Launch Financial Grownups
5 Tips to Launch Financial Grownups
 

Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart it out! Bobbi shares some background and reveals the key takeaways from the book. 

Tips to Launch financial Grownups

  1. Make it about them- not you

  2. Listen to them if you want them to listen to you

  3. Don’t be the solution- help them find solutions

  4. Be clear with your expectations and also the support to get there

  5. When it comes to investing- focus on risk tolerance 

 
 

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

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Full Transcript:

Grownups! If you are listening to this on Tuesday March 22, 2022 this is a day I have been working towards literally for years. My new book: Launching Financial Grownups: Live your richest life by helping your (almost) adult kids become everyday Money Smart is officially out!

In this episode I am going to be sharing my top tips to launch financial grownups but first: 

I know we have been getting some new listeners so I want to bring you up to speed with a little background on me and what we talk about here on the podcast. 

I was for many years a business journalist- I covered mainly stock market news and economics - I interviewed CEO’s and talked a lot about what the fed was doing. I started at CNBC out of college, went on to CNN, PBS and finally Reuters were I spent more than a decade as a global business news tv reporter and anchor. I also was able to write a column on personal finance that was syndicated which was so much fun. But a few years ago I decided to switch gears- and become an author. My first book was How to Be a Financial Grownup. I interviewed what I would call the celebrities of the business world- people like Kevin O’Leary from Shark Tank, Tony Robbins, Designer Cynthia Rowley and I even got some money tips from Drew Barrymore who is actually quite the business woman.

After the book I decided that even though I knew a lot about money I wanted to really be confident when people asked me stuff so I went and became a Certified Financial Planner, also known as a CFP®. Let me tell you, it’s a lot of studying and work, and then at the end of it all you take this super hard test that almost half the people taking it fail. To this day, I consider passing the CFP exam to be my biggest academic and career accomplishment- even more than the books or my college degree from the University of Pennsylvania (Go Quakers) 

So fast forward: Books take time and Launching Financial Grownups was no exception. It was inspired by my own experiences- and challenges.  And full disclosure- stuff still comes up today that it not easy - not at all- with launching my own (almost) adults. 

Like they say on the bachelor- it’s a journey. Oh- yes- I got back into the bachelor over the pandemic. I’m team Gabby all the way. But we digress.

So it’s a whole book but here are a few highlights just to get the conversation going about what it means to launch financial grownups. 

Tip # 1. Make it about them- not you

You have your dreams for them- we all do. And you know what’s best for them. But these are not little kids- your children are adults and you need step away from the mirror and stop seeing their life as a reflection of you. Stand beside them and look through the window and see the possibilities that they are seeing from the their perspective. 

Tip #2: Listen to them if you want them to listen to you. So someone recently asked me about a script to get their kids to listen. Ok. Consider a script with lots of white space and room for improv. This is something Tori Dunlap of Her First 100k talks bout in my book- we as parents need to make sure we are actively listening and hearing and processing what our almost adults are sharing with us. If we tune them out- how are we surprised that they tune US out. Right?

Tip #3: Don’t be the solution - instead help them find solutions. Let’s say your almost adult comes to you and needs money for a project that is super important to them. You could write them a check- and some of us might even dig into our savings because we really want to be there for our kids. Instead- maybe brain storm with them to help them find other ways to fund the project- maybe a go fund me type page, maybe a side hustle, maybe look for grants from non profits or the government. 

Tip #4 Keep your expectations high but also realistic- and make sure they know you have the confidence to believe in them that they can do it. Don’t offer help your (almost) adults without them asking though. Wait for it. The ask may not come and that is good for them. It may be hard if you feel you aren’t needed. But that’s on us as parents. We want to feel needed- and we are- but how we are needed changes. 

Tip #5: When it comes to investing- don’t judge specific investments. Focus on broader skills and strategies. For example, teach them about diversification. If they want to invest in NFT’s who are we to say that’s not going to pay off- we may even have some ourselves. But make sure it is the right percentage of their assets. Same goes for making sure they are tuned in to their personal risk tolerance. And because time is on their side, they can afford to take more risk than us. Let them know that- oh- and no “I told you so’s” if their investments don’t pan out. 

For more I hope all of you pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups- it is on sale now. And then tell me your tips on Launching Financial Grownups- on instagram I am at bobbirebell1 on twitter at bobbirebell. 

I also would love to share more about the book with you, your company, or your school or non profit so be in touch- go to my website and click on the work with bobbi tab at the top right to be in touch. 

And as always show notes and full transcripts are available on my website bobbirebell.com where you can sign up for the newsletter where I curate media that can help us all live our best grownup lives. 

Thanks to all of you for your kind notes and all the likes- and for being financial grownups. 

 
Advice, Authors, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal FinanceBobbi Rebell KaufmanLaunching Financial Grownups, Author
4 steps to be Debt Free with Marcus Garrett
4 steps to be Debt Free with Marcus Garrett
 

There’s nothing grownup about having bad debt. Marcus Garrett joins us to share how he got into debt, how his parents helped him become a financial grownup,  and his 4 step strategy to become debt free. 

4 Steps to Become D.E.B.T. Free

  • Define the problem

  • Establish a plan

  • Build a budget

  • Trust the process


 
 

Follow Marcus!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.



Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I'm thinking a lot these days about financial anxiety and how much we all just want to feel secure about the future for us and, of course, for the people that we love. There's a saying you are never happier than your most unhappy child. And I would expand that to your most unhappy person you care about. I want everyone who hears this to be able to give the next generation the gift of financial security and the freedom that comes with it. That's why I wrote Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. I'm excited to share it with all of you, and I hope it can help put all generations of your family on the path to reaching all of your financial goals and dreams. Order your copy of Launching Financial Grownups today, and thank you for your support.

Marcus Garrett:
I had never made more than $9 an hour in my entire life. They sent me what might as well have been a blank check for $10,000. And it was like, "Hey, 22-year-old has not demonstrated any level of responsibility in your entire life up to and including the day that you got this check. Spend this responsibly."

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grown up friends. A lot of us spent, well, more money than we expected in November and December. Oh, high inflation. Yeah. Things got a lot more expensive, and they still are. And so we set resolutions in January. But here we are, it's February. And I kind of feel like this is the month of the reality check. So we were so determined in January to reach our goals. We started out so strong, but then each day and each week passes and here we are, it is February. Marcus Garrett is an award-winning freelance money writer. He is the podcast host of the Marcus Garrett Show and the author of Debt Free or Die Trying. You have seen him all over the media, including CBS News and USA Today.

Bobbi Rebell:
I asked him to swing by and kind of help us out with the debt issues that we may be experiencing. Or if not you, maybe some friends that want to help out that may be in a little bit over their head. Marcus has an incredible backstory that he shares with me that I think you guys are going to really find compelling. And then we get into some very specific tips about how to get out of debt. Here is Marcus Garrett. Hey, Marcus Garrett. You're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Marcus Garrett:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I brought you on to talk about your strategy for debt payoff. This is something near and dear to my heart because it's something that we have a lot of money shame about. I know I've had moments in my life when I have had debt and certainly not talked about it. I'm fortunate to have come out of them at this point and be in a much healthier position. But it's something that we all have, or at least a lot of us have experienced and can relate to and a lot of us don't talk about, certainly at the time. Tell us briefly about your experience, because that's a lot of what's brought you to where you are these days.

Marcus Garrett:
I got $26,000 in debt in 72 hours.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ouch.

Marcus Garrett:
It all started with a yo-yo. I was 18-years-old walking through the campus like many, millennial flashbacks. I should have hit hashtag trigger warning. And I went to the table where they had the credit cards and they had the swag to choose for. I chose a yo-yo. I signed up for $9,000 credit card at the time. I didn't know it was $9,000. It was a Discover card if I remember correctly. Then I got three more credit cards, graduated school with $9,000 in debt. And then I got a consolidation loan, which was supposed to consolidate in all one low monthly payment, as we all know. I took that consolidation loan, bought a car, bought some rims, I bought a $3,000 TV. I'm very specific about that because people can't wrap their head around the TV used to be $3,000. But that's just a reflection of how old I am.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can still get a TV for $3,000 or more, trust me.

Marcus Garrett:
But not a 42-inch TV.

Bobbi Rebell:
No, no.

Marcus Garrett:
I got a 70-inch TV this year for $300. So I ran out and buy a bunch of stuff that I don't need and didn't appreciate the value. And then I wrote a book about it, $30,000 in debt. It took me seven years to pay off that yo-yo.

Bobbi Rebell:
I just want to clarify. So you rang up $9,000 in debt, and then when you got the consolidation loan, you were supposed to use that money to pay off the debt, but you did not.

Marcus Garrett:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
You then use that too for more debt.

Marcus Garrett:
I bought more debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just so that we followed more debt correctly.

Marcus Garrett:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
You got more debt. Okay.

Marcus Garrett:
I used debt to buy more debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what was going on there? I mean, without getting too detailed, just because I have this book launching, Financial Grownups, coming out. What happened in sort of your childhood or early adulthood that you had no idea this was happening?

Marcus Garrett:
I'd say kind of reminds me of the mind of [inaudible 00:05:05] is just the mind of a 22-year-old. Now that I'm on the wrong side of 30, I can barely wrap my head around that I did that. It almost seems like a dream that I watched on Netflix or something like that. It didn't actually happen to me. But I was really just ignorant of how money worked. It was really that simple. I really thought it was free money. I got a credit card, I thought I was getting over all the banks. I'm like, "Can you believe how low this minimum payment is? These guys, they don't know what they're doing. They're just giving me money." And then when I got the consolidation loan, I truly believed that they would pay off the credit card for me and that I would just make this new monthly payment.

Marcus Garrett:
And they sent a 22-year-old, I had never made more than $9 an hour in my entire life, they sent me what might as well have been a blank check for $10,000. And it was like, "Hey, 22-year-old has not demonstrated any level of responsibility in your entire life up to and including the day that you got this check. Spend this responsibly." And I mean, I don't know how 22-year-olds are today. Now when I talk to kids, I feel they are more advanced that they have more information available to them, but they're still young-minded. I was just young-minded and I didn't have information available to me. But what I did have was a blank $10,000 check.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And were there any stakeholder, financial stakeholders, in your life that were influencing you? Who was influencing you? I mean, were you getting information from parents or other adults in your life, from the school, or were your influences just your peer group who maybe were getting the same thing?

Marcus Garrett:
I don't want to discount the role that my parents played because my parents are actually very good with money, but they've stumbled into it. They're just very cheap. And they've done really well for themselves. They're just your traditional savers, and they just save consistently. They're they're now both retired. My parents practiced FIRE and didn't even know what FIRE was. So they both retired early and they're currently retired now 20 years in. They were both retired in their fifties. But at the same time, which is weird, they were doing that as my parents, but not as my peers or my friends, which answers the other part of your question. We didn't really talk about money in the household. They helped me set up a savings account, which I'm very grateful and appreciative of. They showed me how to save and ultimately help buy my first car.

Marcus Garrett:
But we didn't really talk about the why. It wasn't as in-depth as it is today with the personal finance community and all the podcasts. So to pivot to the other side of your question, yes, it was thus other ignorant 22-year-olds just like myself. And what was fascinating is they were always buying stuff and I could never figure out how. I had three jobs and they had no jobs, yet they were always buying stuff. I learned later they were using their loans, their student loans and cash back. I didn't have any student loans. So I was like, "I have to keep up with the Jones's, or in this case, my juniors." I had to keep up with the juniors. And so I was buying it all with credit cards. And I learned too late in life that they were buying all that with debt, a different type of debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think peer pressure is a big thing when it comes to money, especially for young people. And were your parents aware that this credit card debt was building up? Were their conversations about it? Did you get any education from your school?

Marcus Garrett:
None from the school.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Marcus Garrett:
I can say that for a fact. I don't think they knew how big the scope of it was. And I remember one time, I distinctly remember this conversation. By then in Colorado, at the time I had moved to Colorado because I had so much debt, or part of the reason I moved to Colorado was because I had so much debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
Why? Why Colorado?

Marcus Garrett:
I got a job opportunity that increased my pay 40%. And so by this point in my life, I had to move for money. I had to chase money to pay off all this debt I accumulated. I was 27-years-old. So five years after that, that car and $26,000 experience. So now I'm chasing after more money, because like most people, I think trading time for money is how you solve all your money problems.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you're paying for your past.

Marcus Garrett:
Right. So I went to Colorado. And just having a good conversation, my mom's super proud of me. And it always has been super supportive. She knows how much I make. I mean, I work in the public sector, it's not hard to find. And she was like, "Oh, you must be," frankly, whatever she said, but balling out of control, which would be my terms. That's not what came out of my mom's mouth. I was like, "No, I got $18,000 in credit card debt." And I remember her eyes. My mom's probably never had a $18,000 credit card debt in her entire life. But she was in shock by that. But even that wasn't that big of a deal to me because I knew my friends had $30,000 in debt. And 20 is like, everybody's doing it. It's just I really didn't realize how big of a number it was, because I didn't see it objectively. I just said, "Well, everybody has debt. That's the American way of life."

Bobbi Rebell:
And your mother, did she offer to step in? Did she talk to you? Did she offer solutions? What was her reaction?

Marcus Garrett:
She definitely didn't offer to step in. My parents, they're they're not the salvation type. They're not the helicopter type. They're the, we've done what we can for you and good luck with that type. So she's like, "Oh you got $18,000 of debt. So what you going to do about that?" I asked my parents for money once and it's only because my roommate was late with rent. And I still look upon that day with great lament and pain.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did they give it to you?

Marcus Garrett:
Yeah, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
They did? Oh good. I could talk to you about this forever, but I want to give our listeners, you got four steps to becoming debt free. And obviously there's more information in your book. Let's go through. So debt free, and they go by D-E-B-T. So the first one is to find the problem.

Marcus Garrett:
Yes. So I tell people, and if they want this plan, they can get it at themarcusgarrett.com/salary. I now give it away for free, because I think it's that important. And the first step is, yes, to find the problem. For me, that's going to annualcreditreport.com and downloading, there you can get your credit report, not your credit score, related but different. And I remember when I had a conversation the second time to get a consolidation loan when I was finally making the proactive and responsible steps to get out of debt, they were asking me basics like what's your credit score? How much debt do you have outlaid?

Marcus Garrett:
I'd had no idea how much debt I even had available to me, assigned to me, my monthly payments. I was just, like most people, I was floating from paycheck to paycheck and making the minimum payment thinking I was doing well or getting by. And so I said I would never put myself in that position again. So step one, I tell people to find the problem. And I found out recently from a recent news interview I did, that's still true. I think it said at least one in three, but I think it was one in five people don't know their credit score or how much debt they have. You kind of just go into this wave of denial and start making the minimum payments.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, definitely. So D could also be for denial because I've had moments where I just do not want to open certain envelopes that come in the mail. And now that we do digital, it's even worse because you'd have to proactively log on and see something you may not want to see. But you know what? Guys, I have found it is usually not as bad as you think. And once you look at it, you know what it is, only then can you get a plan. And that brings us to E, which is establish a plan.

Marcus Garrett:
For me I use, it's still available, it's actually the one that I used. It was bankrate.com/calculators with a S. If they have under 70 calculators, I'd be amazed. But it's every calculator that you can think of. Mortgage loan, any way that you can get yourself from debt, I guarantee you Bankrate as it covered. And I use their debt calculator. And I remember I used this for frame of reference. Yahoo, I'm not even sure Google was around. I used yahoo.com to find bankrate.com/calculator. And I printed it out, the PDF. And that was the debt plan that I ultimately put together. And of course, things have been updated since then. There's all kinds of tools.

Marcus Garrett:
But I just tell people the tool doesn't matter. The best system is a system that works. So establish your plan. How are you going to pay down this debt? I think a lot of people are just like, "I want to be debt free." That was probably their new year's resolution. "I want to be debt free." And those goals sound good, but how much does that cost? How many months, how much do you have to pay each month to truly be debt free in that timeframe that you set for yourself? That's the hard part that you're talking about. That's where you're doing the work. So establish a plan, a true plan with a system to become debt free.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I totally agree. People will get caught up in the avalanche or the snowball or whatever, all these different things. The truth is, whatever works for you. And I am also a big fan of bankrate.com. All right, then we've got B is for build a budget. Ooh. I hate budgets, Marcus.

Marcus Garrett:
Well, that's good because I think the chapter is you actually don't need a budget.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Marcus Garrett:
What I say is you need a system. So the first budget is really to say, "Once you've got that, you know how much debt you had, you define. You've established a plan." And now really what I'm saying is build a budget around that plan, because sometimes a plan might say it's $500 a month. If you don't have an extra or cannot find $500 a month, then you've set yourself up to fail. So you've set your plan incorrectly. So it forces you to go back and revisit the plan. And that's why I say budget is actually step number three because it supports what you define and if you have an actual plan that you can follow. It's like a diet. If your diet says cut 2,000 calories, you're probably not going to do that because I think you need 2,000 a day to survive. So it forces you to, is this reasonable? Can I survive on this plan?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. Being realistic is so important. And then the last one is trust the process.

Marcus Garrett:
So that's a shout out to my millennials and zennials out there. I'm actually a geriatric millennial, I found out. Those of you 37 and up are with me. But really all that means is the system works. I know for a fact this system cannot fail. And you said the avalanche and the snowball, I've used both of those as well. And in combination I've used a number of different systems that adjusted to my lifestyle as necessary. But once you choose one and you trust the process, truly buy in. That's why the book is called Debt Free or Die Trying. Not debt free until inconvenient, not debt free until I need a new TV. It is Debt Free or Die Trying. There's very little outs other than being out of debt. So hashtag trust the process.

Bobbi Rebell:
Great tips. You have a bunch of other stuff going on this winter going into spring. Tell us what you're up to, Marcus.

Marcus Garrett:
Yeah, I've got a lot. I'm currently, and thank you to Apple Podcast, I'm featured in Apple Podcast for black history month in they're hashtag secure the bag category. For the people who are interested in this plan, they can get it downloaded for free at themarcusgarrett.com/salary. And then I have a newsletter of now about 5,000 individuals. I've scaled from 200 to 5,000 in the last 12 months. And every week I send out something informative about getting out of personal finance. And my season three episode focus is from employee to entrepreneur. I just want to see people be great and do well. And it's called The Marcus Garrett Show. But honestly, it's just opportunities for me to have cool conversations with people I would've loved to talk to anyway. And you'll be on an upcoming show actually in the spring in March promoting your book. And then in April, I always do a big push for financial literacy month.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Well thank you so much. And let's just give your socials and where else people can find out more about you.

Marcus Garrett:
I'm universally branded under The Marcus Garrett. I'm most active now at youtube.com/themarcusgarrett. And then I've always been super active on Instagram. Again, it's themarcusgarrett as well. I have about 10,000 coming close to 11,000 followers there. So I just, once again, share memes. That's the lighter side of me. So the cat makes cameo appearances. The cat gets more views than any video I ever put up. She has a video right now that's like I would describe as viral. So I do reels and memes on instagram.com/themarcusgarrett.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Marcus Garrett:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, grownups, I think the thing that I liked most about this interview with Marcus Garrett was hearing about how his parents dealt with his financial ups and downs. For example, when his mom heard that Marcus was $18,000 in debt when he was in his mid twenties. So not even that young, he should have known better by then. She put it to him to find a solution rather than giving him actual money to pay down his debt. That said, in a true clutch situation, when, and this was at a younger time when Marcus's roommate did not pay his rent, probably knowing how hard it was for Marcus to come to his parents for financial help, they were there for their son. It's a fine line. It's a lot of what I talk about in my book, Launching Financial Grownups, because yeah, it's a tricky situation and there's a lot of nuances. Being there for kids, grandkids, and just young adults that care about in your life. But not always with a check or a financial gift as a solution. Sometimes, but usually not. Sometimes just as a support and helping them work through it.

Bobbi Rebell:
There are times when, if you can financially help in a specific situation, that is okay too. It's a lot about figuring out what to do when. So this is a perfect segue to ask everyone to pre-order Launching Financial Grownups. A lot of authors do big giveaways. But as you know, I put a lot of time, energy and yes, financial resources into providing this podcast for free. Along with my newsletter that you can sign up for free on my website, bobbirebell.com. I hope you will help me out by pre-ordering Launching Financial Grownups because the early sales, especially pre-orders, really help. And of course, Marcus is terrific. So everyone, please check out The Marcus Garrett Show wherever you enjoy podcasts. And big thanks to Marcus Garrett for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money tips for financial grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 one on Instagram and bobbirebell on Twitter, where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Advice, Authors, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal FinanceBobbi Rebell KaufmanDebt, Debt Free, Marcus Garrett, DEBT Free or Die Trying, Author, Personal finance
The Most Essential Grownup Tips for Working Remotely
The Most Essential Grownup Tips for Working Remotely
 

WFH is not going away. Learn how to love it more- or hate it less without spending any more money than you need with Jill Duffy, author of the Everything Guide to Remote Work

Money Tips

1. You don't need to spend a lot to have a good at-home work setup.

2. We have incredible opportunities to reduce the amount of time we spend in meetings.

3. If you work remotely for an organization, don't skimp on what you ask them to pay for! Learn about what items an employer should be paying for.

 
 

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm thinking a lot, these days, about financial anxiety and how much we all just want to feel secure about the future for us, and of course, for the people that we love. There's a saying, "You are never happier than your most unhappy child," and I would expand that to, "your most unhappy person you care about." I want everyone who hears this to be able to give the next generation the gift of financial security and the freedom that comes with it. That's why I wrote Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. I'm excited to share it with all of you, and I hope it can help put all generations of your family on the path to reaching all of your financial goals and dreams. Order your copy of Launching Financial Grownups today, and thank you for your support.

Jill Duffy:
The more that you're asked to show up to meetings and be on, have your camera on, have maybe your home environment shown, there's a cost to you in terms of your energy levels.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. You know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this,

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. Welcome to our third week in our grown up career miniseries. This episode is all about specific and practical solutions, including what can we get companies to pay for? It turns out, it may be a lot more than just an ergonomic chair and stuff like that. If you have not already listened to the past couple of episodes, we spoke with Deborah Wheatman of Careers Done Right. She had solutions for how to present ourselves when we want to level up our careers, either where we are or where we want to be.

Bobbi Rebell:
Then last week, I was thrilled to have the brilliant Whitney Johnson back. We focused on how to get past career blahs and how compliments can help us figure out what we should be doing, what we're really good at, and what we can get paid for. And now to round out our grownup career miniseries this week, Jill Duffy, the author of The Everything Guide to Remote Work takes us through the most practical ways to set up our work from home or work from, well, wherever life is taking us, including what we can get for free, and who doesn't love free? Here is Jill Duffy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jill Duffy, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jill Duffy:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think you get the award for one of, if not the most, relevant books this winter of 2022, The Everything Guide to Remote Work, the ultimate resource for remote employees, hybrid workers, and digital NOMADS, which I think covers almost all of us at this point. So, congrats on the book.

Jill Duffy:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's start with the at home setups. They've kind of evolved over the last two years. What are people spending money on that's working out, and what are things that we're, or should be, moving away from?

Jill Duffy:
You can spend as much money as you want on a home office or a home work setup. What you actually need may not be something super expensive. So, you can spend a lot of money if that will make you happy and it will improve your work life, and you can go very, very lean if what you're concerned about is not creating a lot of waste and not spending too much money. So, the basic things you need will probably be some kind of a computer, maybe headphones to help your concentration or to have video call meetings be a little bit better, but then beyond that, it starts to get a little bit more choosy. So, you'll want to have a desk. You'll want to have a chair. Whether you use a chair that's already in your home, or you buy inexpensive office chair, may be up to you.

Jill Duffy:
However, if you work for an employer, you should really ask if they will pay for some of this equipment, especially a chair, because it's necessary, and it's usually a little bit more expensive than the other things you'll need. So, get a good chair that you're comfortable sitting in. I sit in a dining room chair. I had an office chair. I found it wasn't very comfortable. I like this better, and I invested about $30 or $40 in a back cushion. So, a back cushion is a very inexpensive item you can add that makes your setup a little bit more comfortable.

Jill Duffy:
For people who work remotely, but aren't always at home, a good way to use things around the house is to try working from a kitchen table or a dining room table, rather than a desk, if you find that your desk is too high. You don't need to go out and buy a whole new desk, but it turns out that kitchen tables are usually two or three inches lower than the standard desk. So again, rather than buying a new desk or maybe getting a keyboard tray, that would be another solution. Just try using a different table. See if that changes the height of things a little bit for you.

Jill Duffy:
Then if you're really lean and you don't want to invest in a back cushion, you can also use a small towel rolled up in a roll for lumbar support or even just a small pillow in the same kind of way, and then other things, something like a lamp, would be really necessary for people who do paper-based work. If you are an artist, you might need some extra peripherals. I think having external keyboard and a mouse are really, really important. So if you're working from a laptop, you may not have those things already. That's a good one to spend maybe about a hundred dollars on, just to make your wrist and your hands a little bit more comfortable, but if you don't have them and you find working on a laptop is okay, that's perfectly ergonomically correct, because laptops are now thin enough that it's not going to create a huge stress on your wrist joints if you just work on a laptop.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's interesting because we moved home in a frenzy in March of 2020, and we kind of put together our setups thinking they were temporary. Now that many people are thinking that these remote setups, we say work from home, but home has become very loosely defined these days. How has it evolved? Are there things that people should be doing? I mean, you really just talked about very basic things. Okay. People, if they're realizing this is a more permanent situation, how do you up it beyond that? Because I also feel like we could be suckers. I mean, there's a whole industry now that is trying to tell us that we need, like you just talked about, rolling up a towel, but there's many people that will sell you at all price points, all kinds of back support. How much is necessary? I mean, obviously as you said, we can spend infinite money, but should we be rolling our eyes at a lot of this stuff?

Jill Duffy:
Sometimes, I think so. I mean, you could buy a laptop riser or you could stick your laptop on three or four books when you need it to be a little bit higher, which is something people often do for remote work calls. You want your camera to be a little higher. You could buy the expensive chair, or you could go with the back cushion or the towel. There's always a way to trade it off, but I think ultimately, making sure that you're happy and comfortable is really important. So if you're going to invest a little bit of money, think about what items you would want that will actually improve your work from home life or your remote work life and make you happy.

Jill Duffy:
Another place people often spend money is on shared workspaces, so something like a WeWork subscription or even a rental office that you might share with other people or that you might use once a week, and you have another friend use it a couple of other days a week. That will allow you to get out of the house. So for people who find themselves very antsy being at home, being in the same situation all the time, that's a good way to change it up. Before the COVID pandemic, I had a great routine of working two days every week from a coffee shop, and that was sort of my second location. It was a way for me to get away from the same stimuli I was always surrounded by in my home environment, and then COVID really changed that. I didn't go as much.

Jill Duffy:
I think as we're moving into a space where our risks are coming down, people are vaccinated, things have opened up, finding yourself a second place to be is really, really helpful, especially on those days when you just start to feel like you're stagnating. So again, if you have a little bit of money or maybe your employer is supporting you financially, look into a coworking space, look in to an office you might rent, and if you don't, maybe a coffee shop is a good place. Maybe you have a friend or a relative nearby who isn't at home, and you can use their home to work every now and again when you need a little bit of peace and quiet.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a change of scenery is so important. You also talk, in the book, about the fact that meetings have a cost. Part of that is financial, but there's other costs, as well. Can you talk about, both, the financial cost of meetings and then the other things that we don't always fully appreciate?

Jill Duffy:
People get so burned out by meetings, and a lot of studies are showing that they feel more burned out by meetings in the remote work environment, where meetings are often virtual, and the dynamic changes a little bit. The way that people interact changes a little bit. So, people feel like they're always on, and so there's a cost with your energy. The more that you're asked to show up to meetings and be on, have your camera on, have maybe your home environment shown, there's a cost to you in terms of your energy levels, what work you can do after the meeting ends, that time spent ramping up to the meeting, the time spent with winding down from the meeting.

Jill Duffy:
So, I like to think, instead, about the way that we want to take value from a meeting. So rather than say, we used to have meetings in the workspace, let's transfer that online, what we should really say is, "What value do we get from meetings? And is there a better way to do this in a remote work environment" What I've seen in a lot of remote first companies is they start to embrace tools that allow them to replicate parts of the meeting or value that they get from the meeting without actually being on a camera call.

Jill Duffy:
A good example is a shared whiteboard. Let's say you have a weekly or a monthly meeting where people are brainstorming ideas. Rather than wait for the meeting time, where everybody must show up and be there and be on and have energy, give them the shared whiteboard where people can post their ideas at any time that it strikes them, and that way, you can still have a meeting where you discuss it, and you come up with some more ideas, but that allows people to have the time and the space and the energy to think about their ideas and add them when it's right for them, rather than pigeonhole them into this meeting format.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm curious about your take on something that's becoming a little bit controversial with all this online meeting burnout. I have a friend that works for a large corporation, and she has a team that is, at this point, pretty much... It's all virtual, but it's people that were even hired virtually at this point, that they're not people that she knew in the before times, and the frustration is that many of them don't want to turn their cameras on during meetings.

Bobbi Rebell:
Part of it could be the things that you're talking about, that it says take so much energy, but they never turn on their cameras, and she's asking them to, and as a manager, she feels she can't really connect with them. We are recording this. We're only recording the audio, but you and I are looking at each other on camera. I feel it helps us connect and have a better interview, even though we're not in the same place. What's the flip side of that? How do you get people to, when you do meet, turn the cameras on, and is that something that managers are going to start pushing for more, as we keep this remote world and it evolves?

Jill Duffy:
I think about this in two ways. One is the very real situation that you're talking about, that people expect you to have your camera on because they want to connect. The other thing to think about here is that in COVID times, a lot of people were told to work remotely from home without being asked, so it wasn't voluntary. We didn't opt into it. We were told that we had to do it. What I've heard a lot of, especially from women of color, is that they feel it's a deep invasion of privacy to be told that your camera must be on. They're in their home environment. You might not dress up as much as you would if you were presenting yourself in a professional environment. You might have kids or elderly people or people with special needs in your home. You might not want to show what's in your home. You might not just want to do it, because that's really asking a lot of people, and I think we need to be sensitive to that.

Jill Duffy:
I think, hands down, the rule should be, if at any point in time, you need to have your camera off, leave your camera off. The reality is, in the business world, we have expectations that aren't always great placed upon us, and sometimes we do need to turn our cameras on and show up. I would say for people who really don't like to be on camera, try to pick one or two times in regular meetings that you have, where you're willing to have your camera on. You can blur your environment. You can use a background image to create a little bit more privacy. You can swivel your computer setup so that your back is against a plain wall. Don't show the kid mess. Don't show your kitchen. Don't show the art on your wall. You don't have to show those things, but I think we need to give everybody a pass, especially in this time where we've been told to work from home, and we didn't opt into it, that people are allowed to have their privacy when they need it.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good perspective to really process. One last question, before I let you go, Jill. One thing that you talk about in the book is that there are things that we may not know we can ask for our companies to pay for, but they can, and it's they can, and they should. We think of things like, you talked about chairs and this and that. Yeah. We can make the case, they should buy us an ergonomic chair. It may work. It may not. What can we get at companies to pay for these days?

Jill Duffy:
There are a lot of other things. If you think about the amount of time you may have put into learning and networking in the past, such as going on a business trip or a business conference, those are the kinds of things you can ask for in the remote world, too. Maybe it's something like an online business conference or an online learning program, instead, which there are many of, and they're very inexpensive. They're extremely accessible, but those are the kinds of things that you can just say, "Hey, I want to learn more about such and such topic," or, "I think it would advance my career if I learned about this. Would you be willing to pay for it?"

Jill Duffy:
I think it's always a good idea to come forward with a complete plan. So rather than say, "Hey, do we have any money for learning?" You say, "I want to take this particular course. Here's the link to it. Here's a little bit about the instructor and what it would cost when I plan to do it," something like that. Give your manager a reason to say, "Yes," easily. The more that you do the work in advance for them, the easier it is for them to say, "Yes."

Jill Duffy:
I think another compelling point to this is that it doesn't always have to relate directly to your job. If we look at productivity research, we find that people who cultivate interest and expertise in areas outside of their job end up being more productive at work, and there's a lot of theory as to why people sometimes think, "Oh, if you can think outside of the box, because you have different experiences from another world, that's great," but anything from learning to play a musical instrument, to doing artwork, sports, even practicing comedy routines, we found that it does make people more productive. So if you can convince your employer to pay for something that enriches your learning, that maybe isn't directly tied to your work, you could be able to convince them to pay for that, too.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So, everyone who dreams of being a standup comic, you now know you can try to make your case to your boss. Jill, this was great. Tell us, where can we find out more about you and The Everything Guide to Remote Work?

Jill Duffy:
The Everything Guide to Remote Work is on sale now, anywhere that you buy books. Online, I'm on Twitter @JillEDuffy, J-I-L-L-E-D-U-F-F-Y, and I'm also a contributing writer and editor at pcmag.com, where I write a lot about productivity and software and organizing your digital life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Thank you so much.

Jill Duffy:
Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many great takeaways. I love the idea of using just a simple dining chair with a back cushion or even a towel rolled up for lumbar support. Who needs all those fancy things? And of course, just the idea of asking for things from your employers, the worst they can say is, "No." Even then, as things go on, policies may adjust. So, make sure to check in at your job's HR website periodically to see if new benefits pop up. Things are always changing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, I do want to take a minute before we wrap up to say thank you to so many of you. A lot of you have been pre-ordering my book, Launching Financial Grownups, and it is truly appreciated. It is being noticed. If you do, I would love to thank you. So, please DM me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1. That's B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L-1, the number one. Pre-ordering tells online retailers that Launching Financial Grownups is a book that people are interested in, and that will help get it a boost from them. By the way, if it is not in your budget, please reach out to your local library and ask if they will buy a few copies so you can borrow it for free. A big thanks to The Everything Guide to Remote Works, Jill Duffy, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast, is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @Bobbirebell1 on Instagram and BobbiRebell on Twitter, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media, and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcast. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownup gear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself, as well, and most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Advice, Authors, Career, Financial Grownup, Productivity, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJill Duffy, WFH, Work From Home, Remote Work, Working Online, Working Remotely
How to Manage the Career Blah’s with Smart Growth author Whitney Johnson
How to Manage the Career Blah’s with Smart Growth author Whitney Johnson
 

Feeling ambivalent about your career these days? With the pandemic dragging on, you are not alone. Whitney Johnson is back with some tips to get unstuck and recharge

Tips for Managing the Career Blahs

  • Learn how common the Career Blahs

  • Find out what the S-curve is and where you are on the curve.

  • Why you shouldn’t just say “I quit”

  • Learn why it’s less difficult to take on something new if it corresponds to your identity

 
 

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey grownups, before we start the podcast I want to talk to you about keeping things in perspective. And remembering sometimes we just have to laugh it off. We need that. Life is full of grownup choices and it can be a lot. So it's important to keep things in perspective and have a sense of humor. That's why I created Grownup Gear. It is super fun merch to celebrate adulting. Tshirts, sweats, mugs, I even have kitchen aprons for cooking. It lets everyone know that you are a grownup. Or, at least a grownup in progress. Or, at least you know someone who's a grownup. We even have the cutest baby gear, from onesies to bibs, that say things like, "I can't believe you are the grownup." The best gifts for new parents, birthdays, engagements, graduation, pretty much any occasion. Even a great gift for yourself. Check it all out at grownupgear.com.

Whitney Johnson:
Often times, when we're in that blah place, we start to go into fantasy land of, "Oh, I think I want to do a different job in a different industry in a different country," which isn't really very practical most of the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what, when it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, grownups. Very excited to share the second in our Grownup Career miniseries that started last week, with Deborah Wheaton of Careers Done Right. This week, I'm so excited to share my interview with bestselling author and host of the Disrupt Yourself Podcast, Whitney Johnson. I invited Whitney back to the podcast because she has a new book out. It's her fourth one, guys. That's a lot. It's called Smart Growth. Whitney is a force in the career and workplace advisor space. She has 1.8 million followers on LinkedIn. 1.8 million. Maybe by the time this comes out, it's going to be two million. Oh my gosh. She also was selected as a Top Voice in 2020 at LinkedIn and her course on Fundamentals of Entrepreneurship has been viewed more than one million times.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview, we talked about something that is front-and-center for a lot of us, and good for you if it's not, but I don't know. Anyway, good for you. But for me, it is the career blahs, especially as I've said, as we enter year three of this pandemic. Oh, gosh. Hang in there, guys. Here is Whitney Johnson.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Whitney Johnson, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to back to the podcast.

Whitney Johnson:
Oh, Bobbi, I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I asked you back because you have your number four book, Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company. You're going to be talking to us about the work blahs, so we're going to get to that in a minute.

Bobbi Rebell:
But before we do that, tell me about this book. And gosh, writing a book in a pandemic, my goodness.

Whitney Johnson:
Well, I think it's the best time to write a book because you have focused time and you're not traveling. But, here is what it's about. I've written three books prior to that, and the last two, one was called Disrupt Yourself, the second one was called Build an A Team. And in those books, I had something called the S Curve of Learning, kind of in the background. It was the supporting actor. And people kept looking at it, and calling it out and saying, "Let's talk about it."

Whitney Johnson:
And basically, what it does is it gives us this simple visual model of what growth looks like, of what it feels like. It was always in the background and I said, "We need to write a book so that people can have this front-and-center. And understand, okay now I have this way to think about the emotional arc of growth." So that's what this book is about, is giving people a map to grow.

Bobbi Rebell:
And we all want to grow, but the truth is, as I kind of said, you could hear it in my voice at the beginning of this interview, it's really hard. We're going on year three here. A lot of us have the blahs when it comes to work. And that is something that you do address in the book Smart Growth.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us, first of all, how common is it? We think, whatever level we're at, that it's just us. Even the biggest bosses get this. You know some VIPs and they definitely get the workplace blahs.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah. The reason you get the blahs is ... I want you to picture an S in your mind and you can draw it with your hand, left to right, a line where you get the launch point. And that's where you start something brand new, and you don't know what you're doing and you're trying to figure it out. And it's overwhelming, and exhilarating and all those important things. And growth initial feels very slow, even though it's fast. But then, you put in the effort and you accelerate into what I call the sweet spot. This is the place where it's exciting, and exhilarating and it's hard but not too hard, easy but not too easy. And this is the place where growth not only is fast, it feels fast. But then, and now we're coming to the blahs, you get into mastery.

Whitney Johnson:
And mastery is this place where you're, "I'm at the top of the mountain! I am the king or queen of the mountain." But the problem is, is that because you have figured it all out, you're not longer learning, you're no longer enjoying the feel good effects of learning. You can get bored. So if you don't do something new, you're going to either potentially self sabotage, you're going to get complacent or have to go somewhere else. So, enter the blahs, this feeling of, "I'm really good at this but I feel like I can no longer do it."

Bobbi Rebell:
So relevant these days and something I think so many of us feel so often. So how do we know where we are on the S curve? Because I think you can get the blahs at many different stages. And then, how do we get out of the blahs? Especially when it feels like we're just home, alone. And there's a very thin line between oh, we have our privacy, but then it's a lot of isolation. You put on a big face when you have that Zoom meeting, maybe even turn your camera off these days, more and more. And then, you get off that and you're just still home. Blah, blah, blah.

Whitney Johnson:
It's an interesting predicament. What I would say is that, when you're on an S curve of learning and you're at the launch point, you don't always know is this the fact that it's the wrong S curve and therefore the blahs, or if it's the right S curve but you just don't have momentum yet and you need to persist. And so, one of the things you want to do when you're at that launch point is ask yourself questions like is this something that is in sync with my identity, in sync with my values, in sync with my why? And maybe, I'm just burned out. Because I think the blahs, right now, can also be, "I'm just burned out and I need a rest, I need a break."

Whitney Johnson:
But, if all those questions are, "Yes, I actually really like doing this but I just need a break," then you want to stay on this curve and find a way to rest and reflect. There's a wonderful quote by Tiffany Shlain who wrote a book called 24/6. And she says, "What if we thought of rest as technology? Because the promise of technology is that it makes our life more efficient and more productive. And if we're willing to rest, that will also make our life more efficient and more productive."

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any practical tips to decide where do you even begin?

Whitney Johnson:
Start assessing, "What do I like about what I'm doing currently?" There's going to be lots of things that you do actually like. And, "What don't I like?" Start having lots and lots of conversations with people about, "What do I do well? What are my superpowers?" What do people compliment you on? Because in those compliments, there are going to be lots and lots of clues to what you do well and what you might want to do next.

Whitney Johnson:
Often times, when we're in that blah place, we start to go into fantasy land of, "Oh, I think I want to do a different job in a different industry in a different country," which isn't really very practical most of the time. So you want to initially say, "Well, okay. If I've been a CFO for a really long time and I'm tired of being a CFO, and I want to do something different, how about if I go be a CFO in a different town? Or, maybe I work as a CFO part time, so that I can still put food on the table but I can think about what else I might want to do." Maybe working with startups. And then, over time that could move to a new S curve where you become the CFO, or even the CEO of a startup, because you've given yourself an opportunity to jump to a new curve but not just leap off without a parachute.

Bobbi Rebell:
That goes to a theme that you talk about in the book, which is the concept of familiar yet novel. And I think that's really relevant to so many people these days, that have this frustration and this blah about their careers, where they're first instinct might just be to join the Great Resignation and just say, "I quit." But there's some red flags with that. You're pointing out that maybe too big a leap doesn't make sense.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah. There's two thoughts on that.

Whitney Johnson:
First of all, yes I do talk about this idea of familiar versus novel. There was some terrific research out of Northwestern. They looked at 10 million research papers written over the course of 10 years and they found that the ones that were most cited were the ones that have 85 to 95 percent of the sources were familiar, in the lane, usual suspect, but five to 15 percent were novel, outside of the scope of what people would expect. And so, if you use that as an analog or as a benchmark, when you're thinking about doing something new, you want it to be 85 to 95 percent familiar, then five to 15 percent novel. So it's familiar enough that you can get a handle on it, but it's novel enough that it surprises and delights you, and it gets your dopamine going. That's a good place to start.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you talk about the fact that it is less difficult to take on something new if it corresponds to your identity. We have to pay attention. As much as we may want to change, we have to be realistic about the fact ... and also maybe make it our superpower, I don't know if that's the right term. That we do have an identity that people are used to seeing and it has to still make sense. You can reinvent yourself and disrupt yourself, as you often talk about, but it also has to be in a way that people will still recognize you.

Whitney Johnson:
Right. Well, and it depends. Because sometimes, for example, there might be an identity shift that you want to make, that is very important to you to make. So you want to change how people perceive you as being kind versus mean, so in that case it's an identity you aspire to.

Whitney Johnson:
But in this case, we would talk about it as being on brand. Is this something that people say, "Oh yeah, Bobbi is going to do something in the financial arena." You've got a new book coming up. What's it called? Financial ...

Bobbi Rebell:
Launching Financial Grownups.

Whitney Johnson:
Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Whitney Johnson:
That's in your lane, that identity works. But if you said, "Hey everybody, I'm going to write a book about dressage." Equestrian. People would be like, "Whoa, okay."

Bobbi Rebell:
What?

Whitney Johnson:
Not sure what to do with that. You would have to do a lot of work to get people to say, "I'm still going to follow her there."

Whitney Johnson:
What's happening is that when you want to jump to a new S curve, you are asking everyone else around you, in this case a potential employer, to jump to a new S curve as well. There's risk involved for them to do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, I want to get to one more thing before I let you go. There's a story that just was ... I don't know if the word magical is the right word because it's a dirty story. It's a dirty story because it has to do with the Dirty Jobs guy, Mike Rowe. I just want you to share at least part of it, I know we don't have time to do all of it. But, I want you to share it because it just shows that sometimes, it's not about ... You have to find the right sort of job and the right identity for yourself, but you also have to find the right place for it, where you can monetize it and make it your career. So tell us quickly about the Mike Rowe story and how he had all these different jobs, he was bumbling around. On the surface, I would say he was pretty successful, he was on TV and all that stuff.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
But ...

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah. Mike Rowe, we all know him from Dirty Jobs. He was jumping onto a lot of S curves. I mean, you could argue that he was a master explorer. He had job after job. And he was an opera singer, and he was on Home Shopping Network, lots of jobs. Well, he's now on the Evening Show in San Francisco. He gets a call. He's gone to yet another winery and he gets a call from his mother.

Bobbi Rebell:
Winery representing another boring location to him.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah, exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
For him, that was boring.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah, exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
I would like it. But for him, this was not desirable. Not a desirable reporting assignment.

Whitney Johnson:
Yeah, exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Go on, Whitney.

Whitney Johnson:
Nor to his mother. So his mother calls him up and says, "Hey, Mike." I think she said Michael. "When are you going to do a job that your grandfather can be proud of? He's over 90, he's about to die. When are you going to do that?"

Whitney Johnson:
This was the call to adventure, the jump to a new S curve. He says, "You know what, I'm going to go into a sewer and I'm going to film a sewer inspector." He goes into this sewer, and he has raw sewage all over him and all these roaches. And it's on Evening Magazine in San Francisco. And he says he loved it, but the producers called him in and they fired him.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. He found his calling but they didn't like his calling.

Whitney Johnson:
They did not. They kicked him off the curve, but they gave him the footage. It was originally called Somebody's Got to Do It, but that became the pilot for Dirty Jobs, which arguably changed the face of reality television.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, yeah. My husband loves that. Yeah. I can't watch it, but good for them. They should enjoy it. The point being ... Well, you tell me. What is the takeaway from this? I love that story.

Whitney Johnson:
The point is is that, first of all, I think he was 42. He was over 40 when this happened. So I think that's an important point, which is so often we think, "Oh, I'm in my 20s, my life is over. I'm 15, my life is over. I'm 25, my life is over." 35, your life is over. And the reality is your life is never over until it's over, so I think that's the first thing.

Whitney Johnson:
The second thing is pay attention to your mother. Just joking, but not really. The third thing is that you're going to be on a lot of S curves and many of those S curves won't be the right S curve. But if you're willing to continue to explore, you will eventually find the S curve that is the right S curve for you. What I have found in my own life, and I think most of your listeners will find, is most of us don't really find our calling until we're in our 30s or 40s.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. So much changes, it's so true. So true. Wonderful advice. Thank you for coming back. Where can people find out more about you and Smart Growth?

Whitney Johnson:
Well, you can go to smartgrowthbook.com to find out more about the book. I have a podcast as well, so you can go to Disrupt Yourself, the podcast. As you just heard, we had Mike Rowe on and he told the story much better than I did just now. So those are probably the best two places.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Whitney Johnson:
Thank you, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
This podcast is way too short in the case of Whitney's book, so definitely pick up a copy of Smart Growth. There were so many incredible stories there. Lots of unexpected anecdotes and stories, like that Mike Rowe Dirty Jobs one, that really makes you see things in a different perspective. And helps you understand that people who you think are totally set in their careers, and they've always been on the right path, maybe not so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway, I also fully appreciated Whitney's mentioning of my book, Launching Financial Grownups. Thank you for all of your support. I know quite a few of you have already put in preorders. DM me and let me know, so that I can thank you. It really does help with how book sellers will present suggestions to other potential listeners, to see activity before the official release date. Which, by the way, is March 22nd. So placing that preorder is very appreciated.

Bobbi Rebell:
Some of you have asked me where to order, among the different retailers. Where's the best place to order Launching Financial Grownups? Well, my answer is frankly, wherever it's most convenient for you. You can find links to buy Launching Financial Grownups on my website, bobbirebell.com, where there are also, by the way, full show notes with relevant links, as well as free transcripts of every episode of the Money Tips For Financial Grownups Podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
I also have one more thank you to those of you who also support this free podcast and my free newsletter, through buying our merch at grownupgear.com. I design every product personally with my incredible team member, Ashley. And yes, we do go with the highest quality materials that we can get. And that does cut our profit margins a bit, and it makes it sometimes a little bit more expensive, but I think it's pretty affordable. All of you have always given us major compliments on what you've gotten from Grownup Gear and I really appreciate that. Especially if you're buying gifts, and gifts can be for yourself, I think it's really important that it be high quality so we're going to stick with that. But, if you do want a discount on your first order, you can use the code Grownup to get 15% off. Thanks again for your support and thanks again to Smart Growth author, Whitney Johnson, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of 100s of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips For Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what, it really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

 
Career, Advice, Authors, Financial Grownup, Productivity, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanWhitney Johnson, Smart Growth, Author, Career, Career Tips, Career Blahs
Why you need a mentor- and where to find them with Dr. Ruth Gotian.
Why you need a mentor- and where to find them with Dr. Ruth Gotian.
 

The Success Factor author explains how to know what kind of mentor you need, how to look for one in sometimes unexpected places, and the best ways to get top mentors to help you achieve your goals.

Learn Why You Need A Mentor, Where To Find Them, And More!

Learn what the 24/7/30 rule is and how it can help to grow your network.

How to approach someone to be your mentor.

Be open to learning from anyone and at any age. You never know when or where you will run into your next mentor.

Be open and honest with your mentor. If you don’t know how to do something, tell them.

 
 

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownups. Before we start the podcast, I want to talk to you about keeping things in perspective and remembering sometimes, we just have to laugh it off. We need that. Life is full of grownup choices and it can be a lot. So, it's important to keep things in perspective and have a sense of humor. That's why I created Grownup Gear. It is super fun merch to celebrate adulting. T-shirts, sweats, mugs, I even have kitchen aprons for cooking. It lets everyone know that you are a grownup or at least a grownup in progress, or at least you know someone who's a grownup. We even have the cutest baby gear from onesies to bibs that say things like, "I can't believe you are the grownup." The best gifts for new parents, birthdays, engagements, graduation, pretty much any occasion, even a great gift for yourself. Check it all out at grownupgear.com.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
He told me at the Olympic Village they would practice and warm up with this technique, with a skill called pepper which works on the ball control. He said, "We did that at the Olympics. It's what I did in my backyard when I was seven years old, the same exact thing." That's what they all do.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what, when it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. I hope everyone is staying healthy and safe these days. Last week, I talked about the use it or lose it strategy and how, as hard as the last two years have been with COVID, when we are ready, we really should try to get on with it when it comes to our goals. Many of us hit pause on a lot of stuff and just sat still for a while. And at a certain point, I think a lot of us have to decide if the pause is a stop and exit or if we are going to hit play again and move forward. And it is with that in mind that I am excited to share my interview with Dr. Ruth Gotian. She is the chief learning officer and assistant professor of education in anesthesiology and former assistant dean of mentoring and executive director of the Mentoring Academy at Weill Cornell Medicine.

Bobbi Rebell:
There's more. She also writes a fantastic Forbes column that I have been binging on. But I wanted her to come on the podcast because of her new book, The Success Factor. For the book, she talked to super high achievers, Nobel Prize winners, astronauts, top athletes to kind of figure out what they all had in common. One highlight that I'm excited to share with you is what she had to say about mentoring and a very well known doctor that she talked to. I hope you enjoy our chat. Here is Dr. Ruth Gotian. Dr. Ruth Gotian, welcome to the podcast. You are a financial grownup.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
I am, I guess.

Bobbi Rebell:
You absolutely are. You are so amazing. I mean, look, I've already introduced you to our listeners, but you studied the mindset and skillset of peak performers including Nobel Prize winners, astronauts, Olympic champions, Dr. Anthony Fauci. We're going to talk about that later. You put it all into a new book called The Success Factor.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
I did. For years, and years, and years, I literally got a doctorate in success. I'm not obsessed with it. I want to know how people get it and how the rest of us can attain it and keep it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, one of the things that caught my eye in your work is that you really focus on mentoring. I mean, that's been something that's been a big part of your career. You were the assistant dean of mentoring and executive director of the Mentoring Academy at Weill Cornell. Now, what role does mentoring play in success?

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
All of the extreme high achievers who I've interviewed, and it ranges from, as you said, the Nobel Prize winners, the astronauts, the NBA champions, Olympic champions, CEOs, every single one of them had not one mentor but a team of mentors. So, instead of looking for that one perfect person, they created their version of perfect by surrounding themselves with people who believed in them more than they believed in themselves. And if that's what the astronauts, and the Olympic champions, and the Nobel Prize winners do, why aren't the rest of us doing that?

Bobbi Rebell:
How do we even get started identifying what we need? And especially in the pandemic, which as of now, I mean, there's still a lot of things keeping us from doing those IRL things that used to be a resource. What do we do now given where we are in the world?

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
I actually think it's easier now.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hmm, interesting.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
Because, yes, because you're no longer confined to the people who are close to you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
You can actually spread your wings and find mentors from all over the world. So, what are some of the ways that we can find mentors when we can't meet face to face? Well, if you ever listen to a podcast, if you ever listen to a lecture or a workshop or a YouTube video, or took a class, or you're in these meetings at work, listen to what is being said, listen to the person who is talking. But, and here's the secret that most people don't do, pay attention to the comments. The people who are attending, whatever it is that you are actually watching and participating in, they have the same ideas, they have the same vision, they have the same hopes and goals. They want to learn from whoever is the presenter. So, you have that commonality.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
Now, if they made a comment that really resonated with you, you should reach out to them and say, "You know, Bobbi, I really loved what you said about blah, blah, blah that really resonated with me because of whatever." And then, you start connecting with them on social media and then you start engaging with their posts, and then you can start sharing information with what my friend, Andy Lopata, calls the 24/7/30 rule. Which is, after you meet someone, your first point of contact is 24 hours later, second point of contact is seven days later, and then the third point of contact is 30 days later. Now, at this point, you are no longer a stranger. You've actually communicated with someone, you've been engaging with them, not so much that you're stalking, but engaging with their content. Now, the thing is, you don't ever ask someone to be your mentor, because, "I don't know about you. I think we're all busy, really busy."

Bobbi Rebell:
It feels like another to-do item on my list-

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
... when someone says that to me.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
Exactly. It feels like another obligation, doesn't it?

Bobbi Rebell:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
So, don't ask someone to do that because that almost feels like, "Ugh, I got to take on another job." But ask them for their perspective on something, "Can I get your opinion on something? I just wanted to run something by you to make sure I don't have my blinders," we all have 15 minutes for that, don't we? That's actually mentorship. We just didn't give it that label. And once you start doing that, it really helps. And remember, you are not a mentor until the mentee calls you one. It's earned.

Bobbi Rebell:
Very interesting. And it also needs to be not just a one-way relationship, right?

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
Absolutely. It's definitely two ways. And actually, you can and should be helping your mentor out. And trust me, I don't care how junior you are, there is always something that you can offer the mentor. And you should be giving before you're ever taking, before you ever ask for their help. Always offer to help.

Bobbi Rebell:
What would be an example? Because a lot of people may be saying, "Oh, what can I possibly offer?"

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
I'm actually helping a Nobel Prize winner market his book. I'm never going to be a Nobel Prize winner, I'm not even a basic scientist. But here is somebody who is a Nobel Prize winner and he is a brilliant physician scientist, wrote a book, but doesn't know the first thing about marketing. I have a Master's Degree in Business, I know a thing or two about marketing, plus I have my own book, The Success Factor. So, I'm actually help helping him through that. So, here is somebody who's significantly junior, in this case me, helping somebody who's significantly senior to me. Now, the flip side of that, I was once at a conference and I was recruiting students for this program that I used to run.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
I don't know if you've ever been recruiting at these conferences, you stand in your booth and you say the same thing over and over and over again, really hoping to sound excited at the 100th time that you've said it. All of a sudden, I see everybody staring at their phone. I realized as we walked into the conference center, there was a big board on easel with what I thought was a symbol of the pound symbol. It actually turned out to the a hashtag and a blue bird. And that's when I first found out about Twitter. And I called somebody, a former student of mine who's a generation and a half younger than me and I said, "Why is everyone staring at the phone? What is all this tweet, tweet, tweet they're talking about?"

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
And that's when I realized that the conversations I was having one on one, I could have one with thousands of people. And they were much more chatty on that platform than they were with me because they might have been intimidated. That night, I went to my hotel room. 11:30 at night, I sat on the floor, opened my first Twitter account, didn't even have a picture, it was just an egg, but that's how I got introduced, how I got trained. It was actually somebody, a generation a half younger than me. So, you never know where this can come from.

Bobbi Rebell:
You never know where this can come from. One of the many things that you do, you have so many different things going on. I am so in awe of everything you do, but I really enjoy your Forbes column. And so, I did see you have a number of them on the topic of mentoring. But I did want to pull a few tips from one of them and encourage everyone to go right on your website, you can go to all of your Forbes articles and get the full thing. But let's do a few highlights there because you have some mentor-related tips of how to be a good mentor. And you've talked about staying engaged in person, virtual, and social. "Deadlines' not recommendations." I thought that-

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
... was interesting.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
Yeah, that's a big one which I repeat quite often. And I'm really excited that we're talking about it because January's National Mentoring Month. So, this whole idea of deadlines are not recommendations, if someone tells you that something is due on January 10th, you don't submit it January 11th. Frankly, if you're submitting it January 10th, it's likely too late because the deadline is the drop dead date. So, you always want to submit it early because you know on that deadline date, the Internet's going to go down, the copier is jammed, there's always a problem. But there are always people who think that those deadlines are flexible. No, they're not. And they're not recommendations. They are firm, very firm. And you always want to, not just meet, meeting is average, you want to exceed. So, you want to submit it early.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another tip from the article is, "Be honest." In the context of mentoring, what does that mean?

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
Don't promise that you can do something that you can't. Don't say that you know how to do something when you can't. Be transparent about what you can and cannot do. Be transparent about what you're hesitant to do, what you're afraid to do, what you're excited to do and why. And I think the more honest you are and more transparent you are, your mentor will be as well. And those are the best kind of relationships.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to leave time to talk about your book. So, I'm going to just tell people to go look at your website, which is just your name. And we'll have links in the show notes, et cetera, to get more of your tips in your Forbes articles. But tell us more about The Success Factor.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
The Success Factor is years of research that I put into setting the most extreme high achievers of our generation, everyone from the former NASA Chief Astronaut Dr. Peggy Whitson, a lot of Nobel Prize winners, Dr. Mike Brown and Dr. Bob Lefkowitz, NBA stars, eight-time NBA champion Steve Kerr, NFL Hall of Famer Curtis Martin, Olympic champions like Scott Hamilton and the most decorated Winter Olympian, Apolo Anton Ohno.

Bobbi Rebell:
And Dr. Anthony Fauci, by the way, what was he like?

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
Yes. He was great. They were all fantastic, very forthcoming. It was interesting I actually interviewed him before the pandemic. I said, "How do you pick which projects to work on?" Because he worked on HIV, Ebola, SARS, right? He said, "I pick something important, not just interesting. Because if it's important, it'll have an impact. And that's why I can't drop my pen at 5:00." And that explains why he's over 80 years old. He could have retired a long time ago, but he's clearly so passionate about what it is that he's doing. And that was the same thing with Dr. Fauci, that was the same thing with the astronauts, that was the same thing with the elite athletes. They have found what it is that they are so passionate about, that they love doing. They can't see themselves not doing it. They would do it for free if they didn't have bills to pay. Right?They loved it so much and that's why they work so hard at it.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
And it's not just working the long hours, it's actually working smarter, which also includes rest time which is critical. So, those are the first two and Dr. Fauci was a perfect example of that as well. The third thing that they all had in common was a really strong foundation which they're constantly reinforcing, what they did early in their careers is what they did later in their careers. They don't say, "Oh, I won an NBA championship. I don't need to do lay ups anymore in my warmup." No. Ryan Millar, three-time Olympian, gold medal volleyball player, he told me that the most important thing in volleyball is not how high you can jump, it's ball control. And he told me at the Olympic village, they would practice and warm up with this technique, with a skill called pepper which works on the ball control.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
He said, "We did that at the Olympics. It's what I did in my backyard when I was seven years old, the same exact thing." That's what they all do. And then, last but not least, doesn't matter that they have the Nobel, doesn't matter that they have all these fancy degrees, they are constantly learning, constantly trying to get new knowledge. While some of them, like you've heard the billionaires who read for three to eight hours a day, that works for them. But what made them billionaires is not that they read three to eight hours a day, it's that they were open to new knowledge. So, what are some of the other ways that you can get new knowledge? You could read articles, blogs, listen to podcasts such as this one, hopefully I'm sharing good stuff, YouTube, LinkedIn learning. I mean it's endless, the ways that you can learn new things.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is. And by the way, for our listeners, you read something like 70 to 100 books a year. You're reading three at once. So, I'm not going to challenge people to do that, but my challenge for myself is to just read more, maybe two a month. I read about one and a half a month, I would say. And I really enjoy my reading time and I enjoy more and more reading books not on screens. I know you are on every medium, so. But anyway, thank you so much for joining us. Where can people catch up with you and get all of your resources including The Success Factor?

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
Thank you so much. Yes. The Success Factor is available wherever you love to buy books. And if you want to know where you can find them, you could just go to my website, ruthgotian.com. And to find out where the books are, it's ruthgotian.com/book. And if you get the book by January 24th, you actually get a free bonus of all these different ways that you can approach strangers and start a conversation and not be awkward or weird about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh, I need that right away. Okay. It's so hard. Oh, conversation starters. Oh my goodness. All right. Thank you so much.

Dr. Ruth Gotian:
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So much to think about. And I definitely want those conversation starter tips. I mean, it's always so awkward. I'm also thinking a lot about what she said on how we shouldn't only think about that person who's up on stage speaking when we attend some kind of conference, it's also the people in the room, even by the way, if that room is virtual. And also, the additional opportunities that this remote world has opened up for all of us to connect in new and sometimes more focused ways. I would love to hear what resonated with you guys. DM me @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and I would love to share more grownup resources with you. I'm putting them in my newsletter, which is free. You can sign up for it right on my website, bobbirebell.com, which is also where you get show notes and other resources. Big thanks to The Success Factor author Dr. Ruth Gotian for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free. But I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Advice, Authors, Career, Financial Grownup, Money, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanMentor, Dr Ruth Gotian, Ruth Gotian, The Success Factor, Author
Financial free association Money Tips with Stacked author Joe Saul-Sehy
Financial free association Money Tips with Stacked author Joe Saul-Sehy
 

Joe Saul-Sehy, along with co-author Emily Guy Birken, is out with his first book. Bobbi puts him on the spot with a fun game of financial free association. Listen to hear how Joe did- and if you would have the same answers. 

Money Tips from Joe’s book

  1. Financial Fasting

  2. Electricity Jumanji

  3. Pretend it’s the 70’s and Do the hustle

  4. Understanding the CubE

  5. Emily’s love of custom stickers

  6. Get Two drinks even with American Express

  7. Cancel culture ( as in credit cards)

  8. Einstein approved 

  9. God Invest the queen

  10. Analysis paralysis

  11. Quick Draw

 
 

Follow Joe!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.


Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never-ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love, but the truth is, it's also really hard, and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic, and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
My team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you are the grownup, either," and new colors and designs of our top-selling Generosity line.

Bobbi Rebell:
For the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity Collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code HOLIDAY, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y, and thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy Holidays, guys.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
You play the reward game once you have your act together. I had no business playing the reward game before. Now, I'm getting all that money back that I gave them by making sure that I have two drinks on them every time I fly.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips For Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownups. Do you always make sure you get your money's worth, especially when you paid for something and you feel like it's kind of your revenge reward kind of thing? So for example, and this is something we're going to talk about in the episode, in the interview, if you've earned status on a credit card, are you going to use every single perk and get every possible freebie? Even if it's not something that you necessarily would've wanted, otherwise? I mean, there's no reason not to. Money is funny that way, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Also funny is Joe Saul-Sehy. He is the co-host of the Stacking Benjamin's Podcast and the co-author of Stacked: Your Super-Serious Guide to Modern Money Management, out today, by the way, if you are listening to this episode on the day that it drops. If you've been listening, by the way, to this podcast for a while, you know that name because Joe and I used to have a little podcast together, called Money With Friends, that we put on hold because, well, we both got book deals. So, Joe stopped by to promote his book, and I, of course, took the opportunity to put him on the spot with a little game of financial free association. Joe was kind enough to play along, and you'll get a kick out of this, I promise. Here is Joe Saul-Sehy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Joe Saul-Sehy, my friend, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
It feels like old days. We're back on together, Bobbi. We got the band back together.

Bobbi Rebell:
We are back on, and typical of me, I'm literally multitasking as we start because I didn't check all your audio stuff, but you're all good. Of course, you are.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
And typical of me, I am about 20 minutes late.

Bobbi Rebell:
That is typical of you, yes. Okay. So, we know we are still ourselves, very much so. This is a big occasion. We stopped our mutual podcast because we both, which was called Money With Friends, which was an amazing podcast, and maybe one day it will be revived, but we stopped it because we each got these book deals. So of course, you had to be first. Your book is coming out in late... December 28th. So first of all, congratulations for getting it done.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one doubted it at all.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
The first time I tried it, it took 10 years. So as you know, I got a great co-author. Emily Guy Birken kind of helped me get through the process, which was fantastic.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So Joe, you beat me to the punch. Your book is coming out first. It is called Stacked: Your Super-Serious Guide to Modern Money Management. I like to keep you on your toes, so we're going to play a game, and it's called Financial Free Association. What I'm going to do is, I'm going to pull some words and catch phrases out of the book, Stacked, and you're going to tell me a money tip or a money lesson from that phrase. Just so everyone knows, this has not been rehearsed. I am throwing this at Joe, spontaneously. He's doing a little crying on the screen, which you guys can't see, but it's going to be all worth it because I know he's going to come up with some amazing advice from these little catch phrases and words from his book, Stacked, which by the way, again, co-written with Emily Guy Birken, who we have to give all the credit for the book, and Joe is wonderful as the face of the book, promoting it here today with us. All right. So, here we go. Number one, financial fasting.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Financial fasting is when you to take a break, just like when you do a regular fast. You take a break from spending to really see what comes out. What's important to spend money on, and what's not important to spend money on? So when you do a financial fast, you say, "You know what? I'm no longer going to maybe," along with eating, "I'm no longer going to eat at restaurants. I'm no longer going to buy stuff I don't need," outside of, let's say, groceries to live, right? But even before groceries to live, if you're really doing the fast, depending on how big a fast you're doing, you might not buy groceries until you clean everything out of the freezer and the refrigerator. You go through everything before you end the fast. A fast is a way to figure out what's important in your life and what's not, so when you create the real budget, you can design it around those things that are important to you and avoid all the stuff that's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number two, electricity Jumanji.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
My kids are 26 now, but this is back when they were about eight-years-old, and at that time, bills came in the mail once a month for the utility bill for electricity. So what we did was, we just took out some graph paper, and you could still do this, right, with your monthly... if you get the electronic notice of what your bill is going to be each month. We took out some graph paper, and we played a limbo game. We played Jumanji. It's, how low can you go with this electric bill? And it was awesome because I went from me being the only one who cared.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Guess what the prize was? There was no prize. There was no prize. It was just, let's see if we can do this together and make it a game. How low can we go? Can we beat last month? And just that little bit of motivation, I would be watching a television, and I'd leave the room to go get a snack, and I come back, and my daughter's got the TV off. She's like, "Dad, you left the room. You got to turn the TV off. You're wasting electricity." So, my kids went from not caring at all to caring a lot, and it wasn't through yelling. It was through involving my kids in what the real goal was for the family.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm processing that. I'm seeing how I can apply that to my family. It's hard.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
It is hard.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're going to work at it. All right, for number three, we're going to pretend it's the 1970s. Okay. Do the hustle.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
I had a great interview with a guy that, Bobbi, you know I've had a crush on for a long time, Austin Kleon, who wrote Steal like an Artist, and he's this business person meets artist, and I asked him about side hustles and he said, "You know what? Time away from your job actually informs your job." And he said, "It's when I play guitar that I get great ideas for my business. It's not when I'm in the trenches doing the business. It's when I'm away." He said, "So, I really like side hustles because they kind of inform each other. It keeps you fresh. And, if it's for something small, like I want to pay off this credit card that I screwed up with, or I want to pay for this trip without having it come out of the budget. I want it to be extra, the side hustle can do all of that."

Bobbi Rebell:
Number four, understanding the cube, understanding the cube.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Oh, this is fantastic. I had a mentor tell me this, that whenever you're in a discussion, we all are trying so hard to get whoever we're in this discussion with to understand our point of view, and yet every discussion that we have is a cube. You're sitting, Bobbi, on one side of the cube, and I'm sitting on the other side of the cube, and it's imaginary. My mentor told me, he said, "Whoever sees the other person's side of the cube and looks at it from their point of view, from the other person's point of view, that person will be the first person to really be able to bridge that gap between the two of us." So when you're in any negotiation, and in the book, we talk about it in terms of a salary negotiation, right?

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Understand what your boss wants. Your side of the cube is I got a lot of bills. I want more money. Daddy needs new shoes, whatever the thing is, that's what we want, but your boss wants more productivity, wants to understand how they tell their boss to give you a raise. What are you going to do for the department then that you're not doing for them now? Understand the other side. There's a truism that mom has said for a long time, that this goes back to, which is seek first to understand, and then to be understood, and that really is what the cube is all about.

Bobbi Rebell:
This one's a bit of a twist. Custom stickers, as in something Emily wanted. Custom stickers.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
You pulled for these, man. We get tripped up by credit card debt, and Emily, as a young college student, was like, "You know what? I'm not going for the Frisbee, or the pizza, or the stadium blanket," that they would used to have on campus. As you know, Bobbi, they can't do that anymore. But back in the day, man, a lot of us got in trouble for a free, quote, free Frisbee or a free stadium blanket, and they still offer these things even through the mail now. So, Emily was very proud of herself that she did not get caught up in credit card debt by the usual means.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
And then, she got this letter in the mail from a credit card company, and it said that she could get stickers, that she would be able to choose what her credit card looked like on the front, and if you want to get Emily, you just got to offer her stickers, and she's yours. So, Emily ended up in credit card debt, like the rest of us, over custom stickers, which was really to make the bigger point that credit card companies have done so much research on you, and they know what your hot button is, and if they don't, they're going to find it and realize that there's a serious game being played against you when it comes to credit cards. So, you need to play a serious game on your end, as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Next, we've got tipsy flying as in two drinks at the airport lounge, two drinks at the airport lounge, Joe, courtesy of American Express?

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Two drinks at the... Is this talking about getting the reward cards?

Bobbi Rebell:
You talk about the fact that you always get at least two drinks...

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
... when you go to the Amex lounge.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
This is...

Bobbi Rebell:
So, you're always a little tipsy on the airplane, Joe, but you got your money's worth. That's the important thing.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's okay to be a little bit tipsy, as long as you get your money's worth.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Well, no. Actually, the bigger point there was actually that maybe I wrote that wrong, because I didn't want that to be the point. The point, though, was I was a mess with credit cards when I was, like we just talked about with Emily, I was a disaster with credit cards. I had a bunch of credit card debt. I also went for the reward point program when I had no business doing that. I'm paying 25% interest, and I'm thinking, "Yeah, I'm getting these rewards." Well, I'm paying way, way over the amount that I was paying then in interest for the rewards I was getting. I was funding my own quote rewards. Well, now, I'm the opposite.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Now, I have this badass credit card that gets me into the lounges, and I love... It's funny. My son just went to one of the lounges with us. He went as my guest on a flight that we just took, and he's like, "Oh, I've heard about these. I don't really care," and then we went up into the lounge, and 10 minutes in, Bobbi, he's like, "How much did this cost? What is this? Really? I can eat whatever I want over here and..." Yes. You can do all that. You have your own little private area. It's very nice. They take care of you. You're in this calm environment. I now go to the airport, sometimes, 45 minutes early, just so I can have a good meal before my flight, relax a little bit, and to your point, have a couple drinks. But my point is, you play the reward game once you have your act together. I had no business playing the reward game before. Now, I'm getting all that money back that I gave them by making sure that I have two drinks on them every time I fly.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, let's stick with the credit card theme here. Beware cancel culture. Beware of cancel culture.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yeah. If you cancel a credit card that's your oldest credit card, that may lower the amount of time that they think that you've had credit. I actually had this horrible credit card from the mid '90s, Bobbi, that I only last year finally canceled. I finally canceled it last year, and it's because I've got plenty other credit. My length of credit's fine without it, so I went ahead and got rid of that. What is interesting, though, because like everybody or like a lot of people, my credit cards also show me my credit score all the time now, which is a cool perk of a lot of cards. When I canceled that card, still went down a couple points. It went from like 820 to 815, and nothing happened, besides the fact that I canceled a credit card.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so wrong.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
It's stupid.

Bobbi Rebell:
But it is what it is. Like a lot of these things, it's wrong. It shouldn't be, but we got to work with what...

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
... we got to work with.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Know how the game's played.

Bobbi Rebell:
Next up, Einstein-approved.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
There's this phrase that's been attributed to Einstein, which is about compounding interest is the eighth wonder of the world. A lot of people say, Einstein said that. Well, Einstein didn't really say that. However, it still made our book because it's so often attributed to him, and we talked about here's this guy who's splitting atoms for fun, doing these crazy things with tweezers and atoms that nobody else can do, and he's bragging, supposedly, about compounding interest, and what is compounding interest? People talk about it different ways.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Here's the way Emily and I talk about it. Your money, when you get interest, it's like your money, Bobbi had a baby, right? And that's interest, but compounding interest is when your money baby has a baby, and then your money grandkid has a baby, and you're in with this $1. You're creating this lineage of compounding interest, so that... I'm as lazy as the next guy, so that I can sit on my butt at home, and I've got my money out there. All my money babies are out there working for me. How great is that? And so, that strategy of building money on your money, that's Einstein-approved.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Last one for the win, analysis paralysis.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yes. Oh, I play board games as you know, Bobbi, and we've got this friend who takes all day to do anything, and it kills the game. That's fine. Killing game nights, okay, but taking so long to make a decision that you miss the opportunity is absolutely horrible, and I have a coach who taught me recently that you should work by the 80% rule, which is if it's 80%, right and the way that you should go, then you got to get moving that way, and I like that because movement, even the wrong movement, teaches you something. If you learn that this was the wrong way to move, it's easy, then, to tweak, right? We'll tweak. We'll either not make the same mistake, or we'll tweak it to be better next time, or we can tweak it this time. Most of the time, movement is not going to hurt you, unless it's second-guessing your strategy. That's the one place where sitting in one place is good, but too many people suffer from... I need more information. I need more information. It's just, I don't want to make a decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true, and so many things just don't happen in life because we just don't act, and I think one thing that I like about Sacked is that it will hopefully inspire lots of people to act. Tell us more about... Wait, I have to say the whole title properly now. We practiced this. Stacked: Your Super Serious Guide to Modern Money Management. Did I say it right, Joe?

Joe Saul-Sehy:
You did. So when you're pitching the book, I was telling these editors from these different publishing houses. So here's the idea. I'd like to take the Cub Scout Wolf Guide, combined with the Hardy Boys Detective Manual, but make it serious and about money for adults. What do you think? And I thought, they're going to think I'm crazy, and the world's biggest publishing house said, "We're in. That sounds awesome." The book is meant to be very easy at the beginning, because I don't know where you're starting from, but at the end, it goes over some very seriously complex things. We start off with stacking your first Benjamin, and then stacking Benjamins, and then protecting your Benjamins, and then stacking stacks on your stacks of Benjamins. It isn't meant to be read from beginning to end. It's meant to be this guidebook, like I had when I had the Hardy Boys Detective Manual. I'd pick it up and learn how to...

Joe Saul-Sehy:
When my mom touched a doorknob, my brother and I would go over with the tape. Right? We'd make that we got that fingerprint, because you never knew what mom was doing. I wanted people to carry the book around that way. So, it's Stacked. It's out today, which is awesome. We're so excited, and it's available everywhere. Please, if you're going to buy it, buy it from your local bookshop, if at all possible, and we've got lots of links on our site, stackingbenjamins.com/stacked. I'm also going to be going on the road, 42 cities. I'm going to come see Bobbi, and we're going to see different cities. So if you want to follow us and come hang out and nerd out with other like-minded people, see what city is close to you, and come hang out with us in the next three months.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thanks, Joe.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
So much great stuff there to get us set up for the new year. I love the part about Joe making sure to get the most out of those reward cards, because like I talked about in the open, we totally do things that we can get for free, even if we don't actually want them as is often the case with things like free food, or in Joe's case, free alcohol. We just like the idea that it's free, and we don't want to miss that opportunity, even if we don't actually want the thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I'm curious, what freebies do you guys take, just because they're free and maybe you wouldn't, if you actually were paying for them? Probably a lot, but you kind of feel like you earned it, right? So those kind of things, DM me on Instagram at @BobbiRebell1 or on Twitter @BobbiRebell, and I'm going to have some freebies for all of you in the new year, as I get ready to release my book, called Launching Financial Grownups. Get on my newsletter to be the first ones to hear about them. You can sign up by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
In the meantime, Stacked is now out, so get your copy, and get yourself set up for the new year in a really good way. Big thanks to my friend, Joe Saul-Sehy, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media. @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and @BobbiRebell on, both, Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media, and tag me, so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself, as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Advice, Authors, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJoe Saul-Sehy, Stacked, Stacking Benjamins, Author, Financial Fasting, Electricity Jumanji, Do The Hustle, Understand The Cube, Credit Card Rewards, Cancel Culture, Einstein Approved, God Invest The Queen, Analysis Paralysis, Quick Draw
Money Tips for every single day of 2022 with So Money’s Farnoosh Torabi
Money Tips for every single day of 2022 with So Money’s Farnoosh Torabi
 

Treat yourself to the best grownup advice from podcast favorite Farnoosh Torabi. The So Money host and CNET Editor-at-Large joins Bobbi with a preview of her Page a Day Calendar for the new year- including some surprising advice from GirlBoss Sophia Amoruso.

Money Tips

  • Learn from your mistakes so you don’t repeat them

  • Rethink retirement

  • Envision your goals and be specific


 
 

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love, but the truth is it's also really hard. I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you're the grownup, either." And, new colors and designs of our top selling Generosity line. And for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code Holiday, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. And, thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays, guys.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Money advice is not just money advice. It's live advice and I think we need it now more than ever, to help us make big changing decisions around all the things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And, you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. Hard to believe we are in countdown mode to the year 2022. I hope everyone had a good year this part year. Probably better than 2020, right? Anyway, I want everyone to be set up for success and just a really good year. And, what better way than getting advice for each and every day?

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that I've been struggling with this past year has been all the damn screen time. I find myself just wanting to be away from all the glowing screens in my life. So, one thing I got recently was my friend Farnoosh Torabi's new page-a-day calendar. I have it right on my nightstand. It is paper, my friends. It is awesome. I do not have to charge it and it doesn't glow at night, it's just there. The added bonus for all of us is that I was able to get Farnoosh on the podcast, to give us all a proper sneak preview.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for the few of you who do not know who Farnoosh Torabi is, in addition to putting together this lovely little calendar that I'm looking at as I record this, Farnoosh is a longtime financial journalist, content creator, bestselling author. She is also the host of the So Money Podcast, which is literally one of the most successful money podcasts ever, with more than 18 million downloads. She recently licensed the podcast to CNET, where she is now the editor at large. With that, let's get to this interview. Here is Farnoosh Torabi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Farnoosh Torabi, welcome back to the podcast. You're a financial grownup.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Am I, Bobbi? Thank you. That means a lot, coming from you. That's official, I'm a grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is official, in this year, two years I guess, we're losing count, where we're looking at screens so much. It can be so overwhelming. You are saving us all for the new year, because you have the ultimate product that we all need and that is a literal old school page-a-day calendar. It's called So Money: A year of managing your money, your life and your dreams. And, what I love most about this is that it is a physical product, which is something you haven't done before.

Farnoosh Torabi:
No. I've done books. I haven't done a book in forever. I have another one coming out in 2023. Yikes.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But in the meantime, I've got a couple calendars that you can play with. I have this one for 2022, and then I have one for 2023. This is an opportunity to bring what has been a very virtual experience for people, the podcast and then following me on social, in the form of something really tangible. And, that they can gift.

Farnoosh Torabi:
For fans of the show, occasionally they'll write to me and they'll say, "Are you selling a t-shirt or a mug, or something with the words So Money on it? We want to show and express our fandom." I don't have anything in that world. So then, this is it. This calendar is special and it's one of those things where I find that we often need all the inspiration and reinforcement, and this is something that can sit on your desktop, wherever you work, which is probably home now. Or, you can take it with you, gift it. It's handy. And every day, a new piece of wisdom, often derived from the show and the wonderful guests that we've had, or a lot of them are just my own life philosophies.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, so we can't go through all 365 days, but I wanted to give some people the highlights of the highlights. So we're going to play, I don't know, we could call it Calendar Roulette, but it's not really that. We're just going to flip through and we're going to have Farnoosh randomly pick a page.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, stop.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So, I just stopped, this is not going to be in order, obviously. June 29th, it's a Wednesday. By the way, this calendar will also let you know what day of the week it is, which I don't know, it's been pretty hard to-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it blends. It definitely blends sometimes, in this work-from-home life that we have.

Farnoosh Torabi:
A short while ago, I had on the founder of Girlboss, Sophia Amoruso, who has become a friend. It's just funny how the podcast ... Do you ever become friends with your guests?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Farnoosh Torabi:
After they come on the show?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Farnoosh Torabi:
It's not a friend that I ever thought I would have, but when she first came out with the book, which became a New York Times bestseller, I was in awe of her and I tried to get her on the show. She was way too busy for me. And then, I don't know, I just caught her at a good time, she came on the show.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But at this point, she had experienced a lot of public failure, where-

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait. Isn't there a Netflix show? There was definitely some series about her life, which was awesome.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Yeah. It was Charlise Theron produced. Her story is phenomenal. I think she was a college dropout, she was dumpster diving for vintage clothing and all that. And, turned it into an eBay store and earned millions of dollars. And then, turned that into a clothing store called Nasty Gal, and then came up with this Girlboss movement.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Anyhow, Nasty Gal went bankrupt. This was after she was on the cover of Forbes, touted as one of the youngest potential multi-millionaires of our time, self made women. So we talked on the show a lot about that, the ups and the downs, and she was very candid.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So this date, Wednesday the 29th, the title of the wisdom is "Learn From Your Mistakes so That You Don't Repeat Them." It goes on to say that, "Sophia Amoruso is the poster child for a certain type of media backlash. When she started her first business, Nasty Gal, she was a darling of the financial press. Before long, she was routinely being called out for creating less-than-inclusive work environments."

Farnoosh Torabi:
This is true. She got a lot of heat, she almost got canceled.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which, a lot of female founders do get.

Farnoosh Torabi:
They get a disproportionate amount of that, for sure.

Farnoosh Torabi:
"The criticism hurt," she told me on my show. "But it was fair," and she took a lot away from it. "It's an important opportunity for everyone to learn," she said, "when they get negative feedback. It doesn't always feel constructive, but there are ways to make it constructive for yourself."

Farnoosh Torabi:
And, there's a lot to say to that. I think for me, what she's really saying there, at least how it's hitting for me, is that in life, there are going to be challenges and you shouldn't be afraid of the feedback. Look, if we were afraid of feedback, would we be doing what we're doing?

Farnoosh Torabi:
It was hard at first, when I was first starting out working in financial news and giving opinions. And of course, with the internet, it's very easy to give feedback. I was getting a lot of nasty feedback, for things that were not even in my control. People didn't like the way I looked, or the way that I sounded, or the fact that they thought I was not qualified. And my boss told me, he said, "Listen, for every negative comment about you that you receive, there's 100 positive comments that weren't created, that weren't reported because people tend to be more negative than positive."

Farnoosh Torabi:
If you have a bad experience at a restaurant, you're going to write that review on Yelp. Versus a great experience, you might not. You might tell a friend, but you're not going to publicly put it on Yelp.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. Okay, let's do another one.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Okay. Wednesday, September 28th.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Farnoosh Torabi:
"Rethink Retirement. The words we use matter."

Farnoosh Torabi:
In this tip I say, "Rather than saving for 'retirement,' which carries potentially negative connotations ... " And also, whose really retiring? Ron Lieber just wrote in the New York Times about the fact that we're all going to have to work longer, let's just face it. Face the music. Now's a good time to rethink your career, if you aren't happy.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So it says, "Rather than saving for retirement, which carries potentially negative connotations, consider saving for your freedom."

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't know, that's a little scary, too. But okay, go on.

Farnoosh Torabi:
The day in the future when I'll be able to actually call my own shots. This actually, I took this out of the page of NerdWallet's website. But this way, you're not putting away money for a hypothetical life stage you're not sure you'll ever reach. You're saving so that you have flexibility and security when you need it, and that's more enticing.

Farnoosh Torabi:
And if I hard more room, I would probably write that, as you're saving for retirement or whatever you want to call it, to really imagine yourself in that stage of your life. And, actually visualize yourself, what are you doing, what are you wearing, who are you with, where are you hanging out, what does your face look like. They have these studies now, Bobbi-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh yeah, that app.

Farnoosh Torabi:
These simulations where they age you and then they did a test. People who saw their age progressed selves were more likely to save for retirement.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, let's do one more.

Farnoosh Torabi:
All right, one more. Why don't we do ... What's your birthday?

Bobbi Rebell:
January 3rd.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Oh my gosh!

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming up.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Well, that takes us right to almost the beginning. Oh, this is good.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Farnoosh Torabi:
"Envision your goals and be specific. The more details an idea you have of what you want to accomplish this year, the better your chances of actually accomplishing it. Rather than aiming to save more, aim to save $5000 in a high yield savings account by year's end. This gives you a target that you can measure your progress against. And as I always say, goals carry price tags."

Farnoosh Torabi:
If you want to make that sentence even longer and say, "I'm going to save $5000 in a high yield savings account for my daughter's whatever, college," or even something closer, like her tennis camp. Gosh, I'm not there yet. I don't know what tennis camp costs. But, her braces, let's be more practical.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Just the point is, back to that visualization tip, the more you can make real what it is that you're after, one, the more excited you can get. And, the more motivated and consistently you'll save because it's actually this thing, this tangible thing in front of you, as opposed to this abstract, saving just for saving. Decide your why, and then go and try to achieve the goal.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, it has to be something that you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am excited for the next year, with having this physical calendar on my desk. Because like I said, I'm so excited to have something that's not on a screen, and it can inspire me and give me different things to think about. Even if they're just reminders of things I know I should already be thinking about, reminders are really good and they push you to think about what's important to you. So thank you for this calendar. And by the way, it's super affordable, if you are looking for last minute gifts for the holidays.

Farnoosh Torabi:
We have a discount right now, going on. If you go to workman.com and you use the code So Money, you can get 20% off. And, I have a very special offer for anyone who wants to buy multiple copies. Let's say you want to buy 25 or more for your office friends, for your clients, for your extended family. If you want to do that, get in touch with me, I'll get you even a bigger discount. And, I'll show up virtually, for 15, 20 minutes and chat with your book club, your office mates. I've been doing this, so far. It's been fun to make face time with people. But, I'm offering this only until the end of the year, so you've got to get those purchases in and then we can schedule something in the new year.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But, if you're interested in that bulk purchase and having me show up, and talk my mouth off in front of your group, it's farnoosh@somoneypodcast.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You made some very big changes in your professional direction in the year 2021. Tell us your latest news and what you're up to for 2022. Oh my gosh, 2022.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. So much has changed, I'm very excited. I've gone back to my roots of journalism and working in the media biz. And I've joined CNET as editor at large, and will be helping them launch and grow their money vertical. That means writing for them, doing a lot of media for them. We started a YouTube channel, so you go check out YouTube.com/CNETMoney. A newsletter, and the podcast, they're licensing the podcast which means they're helping me grow that, and we'll be integrating some more CNET content into the show.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But, it's an opportunity for me to grow. I don't know about you, but the last 20 months, career wise, was a tremendous inflection point, for I think me and millions of Americans. I personally wanted to work with a team again and feel like I could make more of an impact. And of course, the show, as I mentioned at the top, I'm so blessed. The people just keep coming, it's millions of downloads. But, it's been a weird time and I feel like money advice is not just money advice. It's live advice and I think we need it now, more than ever, to help us make big changing decisions around all the things.

Farnoosh Torabi:
CNET's got an incredibly big, engaged audience so it was just a great partnership. And, they're giving me a lot of freedom to grow and try things, things that I would really do on my own. I tried to start a YouTube channel on my own in the pandemic, didn't work. Who knew you couldn't start a YouTube channel, on top of everything else? Raising your kids, teaching them school, going to work, in the same place, 24 hours a day.

Farnoosh Torabi:
I'm also writing a book, that has nothing and everything to do with money. But, it's really a memoir, big idea, memoir-ish kind of book. Which is a little different for me, because I'm very used to technical writing but it's really making me think and write creatively, about the fears that I grew up with. And, why I don't think that was always such a bad thing. I'm still a very frightened woman, who's very skeptical of a lot of things, but I get stuff done. And, I have to think that there's a connection there, that my fears have actually come out to work in my favor. But at the same time, I think there's also just panic and that's not what we want to have.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So the book is really about how to be smart and emotionally intelligent about the fears that you experience, and recognizing what ones are worth paying attention to and what ones we need to kick to the curb. But, this idea that we need to ignore our fears or run away from our fears, I have a different philosophy. I feel like we should really embrace them in some ways, because I think it can help us to get closer to what we define as success and that's different for everybody.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But, looking forward to finishing that. As you know, it's hellish when you're in the midst of ... I always like having written and I like going to book parties, but this process is like pulling teeth a little bit. But, it's good for me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I can't wait to read it. You're such an inspiration. Thank you so much.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, friends, I hope you guys enjoyed that interview as much as I did. Farnoosh really is the best. Such a generous, lovely person, I love having her on. We barely got into all of the incredible nuggets of wisdom in her calendar, but I am really into it.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, she is doing another one for 2023, so it's going to keep going on. The great thing is, like I said, paper, no screen. By the way, it's recycled paper so it is eco-friendly, all the good stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do not forget to get that discount code that Farnoosh so generously gave us. It's So Money, when you order it on the Workman Publishing Page. You can also, by the way, get that info on my website, in the show notes. It's just my name, bobbirebell.com. Where like I said, you've got show notes, summarizing every episode. Also, full transcripts all there, just for you.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, big almost end of year thank you to Ashley Wall, our producer who puts that together, all of the show notes, so well. She also puts the quote boards that we use on social media into the show notes, so you can see highlights of the interviews from all of our guests.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, if you're wondering what I'm talking about, I post them also, sometimes on Instagram, but pretty much always on Twitter. I'm going to do more Instagram in the new year, so follow me on Instagram. That is Bobbi Rebell and the number one. And also, on Twitter, that's just my name. It's easier, just Bobbi Rebell. B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L. Even though I definitely get tired of the screen time, I am going to be on social media much more in the new year, with a lot of great stuff. DM me if you follow me on either platform, so that I know to follow you back and I know your part of our Grownup community.

Bobbi Rebell:
In the meantime, get yourself set up for the new year with the So Money page-a-day calendar. You're going to be really happy you did. It's just really calming and I feel like it's a nice thing to wake up to something inspirational in the morning. So big thanks to my friend, Farnoosh Torabi, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Steward. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes, to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what, it really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Authors, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Role Models, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanFarnoosh Torabi, Editor At Large, CNET, So Money, Podcast, Podcast Host, Calendar, Farnoosh Inspiration, Highlight Reel
Is unfollowing your passion the secret to grownup success with author Terri Trespicio
Is unfollowing your passion the secret to grownup success with author Terri Trespicio
 

Feeling unmotivated, indifferent and blah about your career (AKA how you make money)? With the great resignation we’re experiencing you are not alone. Unfollow Your Passion Author Terri Trespicio shares her tips on creating a life that matters to you AND  that can also pay your bills.

Money Tips

  • Get a job, any job, that pays money.

  • Commitments- this is where a lot of people get the wrong idea. 

  • Avoid doing something just because other people say you should.

  • Think about the effect of being paid when you do something for pay.

  • Jobs are not all of nothing.

  • Don’t be judgy- especially for yourself.

  • Explore your off label use.

 
 

Follow Terri!

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Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love. But, the truth is it's also really hard, and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic, and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
So my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you are the grownup either," and new colors and designs of our top selling Generosity line. And for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity Collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code holiday, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. And thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Rather than think about the ideal job. I say, think about the life that you want, because if you're getting paid at such a high rate, that it makes your life, the kind of life you want, then you can do other things, you didn't sell out.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what, when it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grown up friends. Did you always know what you wanted to do for a living? I kind of did. I wanted to be a journalist pretty early on. And while I have been able to do that, and you'll see why this is important, I have been able to get paid pretty well for it. This week's guest has me thinking, "It might have been okay or even pretty good to have tried out some other stuff first. But in my early twenties, I was in such a rush to follow my passion and turn it into a paying job. I mean, look, there was pressure from parents, from teachers, from friends that were doing this to just get started, to be the grownup right away, lock it in, define who you are. Now, again, to be clear, it's worked out pretty well. But looking back, I kind of wish I had known this week's guest back then and with the wisdom that she has now, since we are peers, but she wasn't so sure about what her passion was and that also worked out pretty well for her.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's going to be interesting for you to hear what she has to say. It's pretty epic stuff. Terri Trespicio gave a TED Talk a few years ago. It has racked up close to 8 million views. And by the time this goes out, it could be even more. It is amazing. It is about unfollowing your passion. And now she has a book by that same name, which follows up on that really landmark talk. I mean this talk, I can't even begin to tell you how much it mattered to so many people. So in my interview with Terri, we get into how her winding path to finding her passion actually led to this aha moment. That that is not what it's all about and most important, how we can all use Terri's experiences to take the pressure off, and find out what we actually want to do or confirm, it's okay. Confirm that we're doing what we want to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's good too. But to be clear, sometimes it's okay to have a job that's for money to follow your passion. And so it's okay to just kind of work for the money. I mean, not to be so miserable, but you guys get the idea. Anyway, this interview is going to have you taking action and getting excited about your future. I promise you that. You got to hear it from Terri herself. I'm not as good at explaining this as Terri. So let's get to it. Here is Terri Trespicio.

Bobbi Rebell:
Terri Trespicio, you are a financial grown up. Welcome to the podcast.

Terri Trespicio:
Thank you. Happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so glad that you are here. You are well known for your TED talk. Tell us a little bit about that, and then tell us about the book now following the TED Talk called Unfollow Your Passion.

Terri Trespicio:
The TED Talk I gave in 2015, it's called Stop Searching For Your Passion. I gave it and I thought, great. Whoever was there in the audience saw it. And that's probably the last time anyone will. And I was wrong about that. It took off. The thesis is that the question we ask each other and ourselves, whether we should or have found the one thing we should be doing, is not a helpful question. It is incredibly limiting, and it presumes that we're supposed to know what we're doing, and I'm not convinced that any of us does. And so [crosstalk 00:05:05]-

Bobbi Rebell:
I took issue with it-

Terri Trespicio:
... the world changes.

Bobbi Rebell:
... and that's an important point that you bring up in this book that I'm so happy we finally finally have. Okay. So taking that, the book really expands on the idea of the TED Talk about how we balance this whole notion of passion with look, we do need the practical reality that we have to earn money. And we also want to be happy because we spend a lot of time doing the things that earn us money very often. Not always, some of us are fortunate. We don't have to spend a lot of time, but most of us spend a good deal of time at what we like to refer to as work, or things that bring in money.

Terri Trespicio:
Yes, both those things. And the book picks up where the TED Talk leaves off and goes deeper to question all of the ways in which we have assessed career and meaning, and value, and time, especially now, and people are going, "What am I spending my time on? And is it worth it?"

Bobbi Rebell:
I loved the book, and I pulled some of my favorite grownup tips from it to share. So the first one, which goes to what you were just saying, and you were sort of... It's well, the tip is that you should get a job, any job that pays money when you're sort of lost. And this relates back to you soon after you graduated college, going back to what you just said about all this pressure on finding the one thing. You were sort of stuck because you were doing nothing because it wasn't the one thing.

Terri Trespicio:
I would get offers for jobs, and I would turn them down. Low-paying entry-level jobs. And I said, "I can't do that one. I can't do that one." My mom said, "Why, why?" I said, "Because I don't want to do that for my life." And she said, "But you," I said, "But I'll be trapped. If I take it, I'll be stuck there for life." And I don't know, I don't know. I was really in a bad place. She was like, "Listen to me, you have to take a job, any job, and you will figure it out, but you've got to start." And so finally, when I finally said, "Okay, fine." It wasn't a dream job.

Terri Trespicio:
It wasn't meant to be a dream job. It was an executive assistant job at a management consulting company in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I knew nothing of what they talked about. I didn't understand it. They were super brilliant people, went to MIT, I was charged with, "Sit there and answer the phone, and make travel arrangements," and do things I didn't know how to do. You'd say, "Well, why would that be some kind of breakthrough job?" Because I had a place to go, and I had a job, salary, benefits, people who waited for me in the morning and called me by name during the day. And I felt like I had a purpose there, which I did until I left. But If you don't let yourself do it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Well, and it was a grown up job. And that's actually the second point, the second tip that I wanted to talk to you about was just that, commitments. People overthink this idea of commitments that they have to commit to that job forever when that's far from the truth. And by the way, the job is not committing to you, you point out too.

Terri Trespicio:
Oh, definitely not. Commitment does not have to be lifelong. Commitment means you're in it right at that moment.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you're very candid in the book. For example, you talk about being laid off, and how it just sort of at the moment was so devastating because you felt committed, and it was apparently a one-sided commitment at that moment.

Terri Trespicio:
Well, let's be real. By the time I got laid off from Martha Stewart, in my mind the writing was on a wall a little bit, because my boss had left. And they brought in a new editor-in-chief of that magazine. And that editor-in-chief didn't know me at all. And I thought, "There goes my connection." It just, I had a feeling, but I was also afraid to leave the full-time job. Well, you can't leave a full-time job when you don't have any something else. But by the time it happened, I remember the day before I got laid off, I said, " You know what's funny. I would imagine there might be a chance I could get laid off."

Terri Trespicio:
And it happened the next day, because they were cutting, cutting, cutting. It just, magazines weren't making Martha all the money. And ultimately the magazine work foreclosed a few months later, so that's it. But I didn't feel betrayed, actually. I said, "I need to leave," but it was almost like, "You're going to have to break up with me because I don't know if I'm going to leave." And then they did. And when I knew that commitment ended, I was a little bit fearful, but I knew then that I had to do something. Again, that prompted me to dig in.

Bobbi Rebell:
The third tip that I want to discuss is that you talk about avoiding doing something just because other people say you should. And you give the example of Michelangelo, which I thought was so genius.

Terri Trespicio:
It came out of the work of fiction about his life by Irving Stone, The Agony and the Ecstasy. And there's a moment when Michelangelo just wants to sculpt. He endures drawing or painting. He doesn't love it. He wants to be a sculptor. And he gets an opportunity [crosstalk 00:09:14] in Lorenzo's sculpture-

Bobbi Rebell:
A paid opportunity.

Terri Trespicio:
... Got paid. [crosstalk 00:09:17] paid for being in the sculpture garden. He was very excited about it. And he's like, "This is so great." It was like the equivalent of being a writer at SNL, except you're doing sculpture from marble. And one of his friends says, "Let's get out of here. What if this garden goes down? What if we don't... No one cares about this. Why are we doing this? It's not at the top of my list." And Michelangelo said, "There is no list. This is all I want to do."

Terri Trespicio:
Now that doesn't mean Michelangelo is right, and his friend would've been the next genius sculptor. It wasn't right for that kid. And I believe they were kids at the time. That kid wanted something steady. He said, "Let's get into something that makes some money, like pork. Maybe he went on to be a pork salesman who knows? But Michelangelo said, "No, this is what I'm doing right now." And he didn't say someday, I'm going to be to... Yeah, he was just like, this is all it. This is it. Now he knew, but there's a proof of my point though, Bobbi, because we don't all grow up craving marble. I didn't, I wasn't like I'm going to do this. That's the rare. Most of us are afraid and wanting to do something that makes money. But the idea that you have to make both the answer, that you have to do what you love and make a fortune doing it, is a lot of pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
There's a lot of things that focus on being in the right mindset, in your book. So the fourth grownup tip is, think about the effect of being paid when you do something for pay, how does being paid make you feel? And I mean, for me, I had a tangent conversation with a friend of mine who had a very high paying job that she didn't love, but she loved the money and she didn't hate the job, but she really liked being paid so much money because it opened up opportunities and she's like, "Yeah, I took the job for the money. And somehow people have trouble with that. But I really liked being paid a high salary."

Terri Trespicio:
But that's the life. Rather than think about the ideal job, I say think about the life that you want. Because if you're getting paid at such a high rate, that it makes your life the kind of life you want, then you can do other things. You didn't sell out. I really hate this idea that you don't have to turn everything you love into a business. First of all, not everyone has to be an entrepreneur, and there's nothing wrong with taking something. You don't win points for being a starving artist. I'm sorry. You just don't. Unless you don't mind someone finding yourself 20 years from now and maybe caring about it, I'd rather enjoy the stuff I'm doing now.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said, all right, number five. Jobs are not all or nothing. There's a lot of nuance. We tend to be very literal with jobs.

Terri Trespicio:
This is my problem with the linear thinking around jobs. That were only this job or we're defined by this job. Anyone you can think of who has a job, that that's what they do. I guarantee you, they have lots of other things they love to do too. On one hand, we want the work to inspire us, and we want to be known for doing something wonderful. But who said that the thing you create that's amazing has to be the thing you're getting paid for. I think we don't open up the bandwidth enough to see all of the potential from all the things we can do. This is what I usually say. Bobbi is like, "The world does not owe you a job that suits your dreams and passion." The world does not owe you that it's on you to figure out a way to do something you love that matters to someone else. No one just pays you more because you like it. That is not how it works. It's not how the economy works.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the stories you share in the book that I love is about your sister, who is a very talented singer, but that is not the job for pay that she wanted.

Terri Trespicio:
Right. My sister is an amazing singer. She could have had a chance of making a living as a singer. I don't know that she would've been like Jlo, I just know that she could have made a living singing, and she knew that from an earlier age. And she fought it and said, "No way, no way, no how." And no one understood it. And they still don't. If they hear her sing when she does do for fun. "You're so good. You could have been famous. Why don't you that?"

Terri Trespicio:
And she's like, "Do you understand that if I could have been the most successful you could be as a singer, my life would be singing every day or traveling all the time." She said, "My big goal is to have my own house, to have a couch, to sit on it every night, to watch TV, and have kids and a dog. That is the life I want. You don't get to make a living as a huge recording artist and then never go out and tour or perform." She said, I want to do it when I do it. And if I made singing my life, I would've come to resent it."

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the other themes that you talk about that I really picked up on is don't be judgey, especially of yourself. And I'm referring to, for example, the idea that you were selling jewelry in the suburbs on this MLM, you embraced it, you were good at it. You learned a lot from it. You formed relationships from it. It worked for you at that time.

Terri Trespicio:
I was bad at it at first. And I was like, "Really? I feel weird selling." I was a copywriter. This was not my jam, but I quite frankly needed to earn the money. And I really liked the jewelry. And so I realized liking jewelry, and having a passion for accessorizing does not directly link to a skill in sales. That I had to learn. It was tough, but I was incentivized to learn it. And when I figured out how to make it work for me, it was something I did well at. I didn't do it very long. I think I did this organization for maybe two years, if that, and then I kept those skills in my back pocket. And then when I got laid off and had to work for myself, guess what I pulled out? My skills that I had learned on how to sell. And now I had to sell myself. So nothing is wasted, no job, no opportunity is wasted if you know to take those skills and use them somewhere else to benefit you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right? Because what we're hearing is whether it's the executive assistant job or the job selling jewelry at these parties, these were all things that built up who you are and the skillset that you had. And had you been judgey about them and looked down on them, and not realize the opportunity in them, you would not be where you are today.

Terri Trespicio:
Oh I used to make a joke about earning an MFA in poetry. First of all, it was not a joke. It was a very expensive investment that my family was able to and willing to make for me. So there is a level of privilege right there. You don't need to go get an MFA.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you make an argument there of how it would lead to income someday when you were asking them to pay for it?

Terri Trespicio:
I said, "This is what I want to do. I want to be in this program and learn it, and to become better at it. I don't know how it'll directly relate, but it is a Master's degree, and it could really be helpful, and I don't know how. My family is willing to back me on that. Plenty of people wouldn't. And you don't need an MFA to be a writer. However, I used to joke about it later. "Oh, I had an MFA poetry." I was real practical. Well, in fact, today I make my living, a lot of it from writing.

Terri Trespicio:
And what did I do? I apprenticed to study the words, the beats, the lines. I basically consider myself today a corporate poet. I use the skills I studied to create poetry for companies, to make it sing on the page. And that comes from years of study of line beats and forms, and all of that stuff. So I had the weird life that just is uniquely mine, but so did everyone else's. But I hear people dismissing, "Oh, I did that for a while. That was stupid. Oh, I did that. That was dumb." What did you... You learned something. Why would you let it go to waste? There isn't a thing I did that I don't use.

Bobbi Rebell:
We have to look and see if the URL, the corporate poet, is available for you. I feel like that's a good brand for you.

Terri Trespicio:
I don't know if a company wants to invest in a bard.

Bobbi Rebell:
But no, but you call it the corporate poet, which is really what it is. I think that's a very catchy brand-

Terri Trespicio:
You Think?

Bobbi Rebell:
... for someone that does something less. Yes-

Terri Trespicio:
Maybe I'll do it.

Bobbi Rebell:
... I do. The corporate poet. Do it before this airs. All right, the last one. This is my favorite one, because it's just so you. Explore your off label use.

Terri Trespicio:
Yes. This is again taking stock. And I walk people through that in the book. Of all the skills you've learned, no matter if it was paid or unpaid, whether it was what you learned from babysitting or raising your own kids, or running this nonprofit, you don't look at it just by, well, how much did I get paid there? What are the skills that you know? And how can you use them. Off label meaning, yeah, I trained as a poet. So now I know language really well. I also work as a brand advisor, so I know that, but the brand advising work, I can do that for anyone and anything.

Terri Trespicio:
Stop looking at our skills, stop looking at your own skills as tunnel vision, like they only work here. Your whole batch of skills is like a bag of tricks, and you can take it from landscape to landscape. From one group to another. The creativity, everyone's always saying they want to have a creative career, the creativity in a career does not come, whether it's labeled creative. It's how are you using all these different skills to light up different areas of your work and different people? How do you all your different skills help people in ways you might not have thought about? That's the magic. That really, really is.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said, and so much great stuff in your book, Unfollow Your Passion, How to Create a Life that Matters to you. And I love on the cover that "to you" is in script and underlined, because that's really the big thing I think that stands out. That it's unique to you and everyone needs to take what matters to them from this book. And there's a lot to take there. Tell us more about the book, what you have planned. I know you're doing a lot of promotion for it. And then how people can get in touch with you and follow you and all the good things.

Terri Trespicio:
Well, the to you, by the way, imagine if it didn't have to you at the bottom, it would just say how to create a life that matters. Who says what matters? That's the key. It doesn't have to matter to anyone else, but you. But people I'll say, more women than men, are concerned that their life isn't serving enough people in enough ways. And as they say, "If you live out what everyone else wants, what are you left with? So my hope for the book is yeah, of course. Yeah. I hope people read it and use it. The thing that I most hope that it will do for people.

Terri Trespicio:
It's not going to tell you what you should pursue in your career. That it's too linear. That's not my job. I would be very arrogant to think I could tell you that, but I would hope that it will open up your thinking and unlock something so that you don't feel chained to one way, one role, one path for being in the world. That is a kind of self-imposed prison. And the sooner we can free ourselves of that and see that we really do get to make things up as we go and our lives can be what we want. The sooner we do that, the freer and the more self-possessed we will be. And isn't that the goal, the goal isn't just happy. The goal is free.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said, where could people be in touch with you?

Terri Trespicio:
Well, they can find me, I'm on all the things. And I'm the only one with my name. So if you look up me up, you will find me, but if you want to learn more about the book it's at unfollowyourpassion.com, because that's easier to remember than my name, but of course you can find me @territrespicio on Instagram, Terri Trespicio, if you Google it, the Google knows how to correct the spelling, no matter how you do it. And I would love to hear from people.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Terri Trespicio:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love that part about being a corporate poet. She really is. And that story about her sister's incredible singing talent really hits home. It makes so much sense just because you have a talent that others will pay you for. Doesn't mean you have to go sell that talent for a living, If it's not going to give you the life you want. You want to do something that will give you the life that you want. It's also okay to take a job that you don't love. But of course, obviously you don't want to take a job that you hate, but you love the fact that it pays super well and gives you something that you're really into. It gives you the ability to do things that you can afford to do. Jobs don't have to be for fun. They really can be for the money, after all, companies are paying you to do what they need to get done.

Bobbi Rebell:
They are not paying you to fulfill your dreams. If they work together. Great. But if not, well, seriously you are in the majority. Don't sweat it. Enjoy the regular paycheck and health insurance, and so on. I highly encourage everyone to not just check out Terri's book, Unfollow Your Passion, but also to check out some of her other content, she creates so much great stuff and has all of these workshops and other resources, including, but not limited to by the way, her TED Talk. Invest your time in her teachings. All to be found at unfollowyourpassion.com. And big thanks to the wonderful Terri Trespicio for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grown up. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how can do that first connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our Merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Authors, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Role Models, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanTerri Trespicio, Author, Unfollow Your Passion, Passion
Spoiled kids? How to talk money during the holidays
Spoiled kids? How to talk money during the holidays
 

The holiday season can be a great opportunity to teach young children money lessons including needs vs wants, the importance of saving and investing, and the power of giving. Bobbi talks with The Wisest Investment author Robin Taub, about the best ways to have those talks, and make an impact on your kids. 

Money Tips

  • Talk about needs vs wants

  • Find Opportunities where children can learn how to be generous

  • Learn how to have a conversation about money with kids of any age

  • The important lesson that children can learn by walking away empty handed

  • Have children use their own money when purchasing things they want

 
 

Follow Robin!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love, but the truth is it's also really hard and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile. So my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the Wednesdays with phrases like, "I can't believe you're the grownup either," and new colors and designs of our top selling generosity line. And for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code holiday, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. Thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays, guys.

Robin Taub:
It's really hard as parents not to rescue your kids and you say you've done it, I know I've done it, and you're standing there and they're so disappointed, but it is a really important lesson that they have to understand that money's a finite resource and you have to do some planning and you have to do some research and know what things cost and whether you have enough.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Grown friends and happy holidays, whatever holidays you are celebrating. It is the season for so many good things, but we also want to make sure that we keep our kids from developing bad money habits, because that can happen with all the giving that goes on. Giving and getting presidents is good, don't get me wrong, but we just want to make sure that the young people in our lives don't get a sense of entitlement. Not just because we'll have to live with it, ugh, but also because it's just not going to serve them well as they grow into being grownups. Robin Taub is the author of The Wisest Investment: Teaching Your Kids to be Responsible, Independent, and Money Smart for Life. While she's based in Canada, her lessons are really universal. In my interview with Robin, we talk about using the holidays as an opportunity to teach kids, well, to be their best selves, maximize the fun and giving spirit of the holidays and not get caught up in all the bad stuff. All the me, me, me, get me, get me, buy me, buy me. Right? We've all heard that. Robin is so warm. You can tell she has a great heart and really cares about teaching young people. I think that's why we bonded so much. You're going to love this interview. Here is Robin Taub.

Bobbi Rebell:
Robin Taub, you're a financial grownup, welcome to the podcast.

Robin Taub:
Thanks Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
We are of like minds across international borders. You are Canadian, I am obviously a US citizen, but we are like mines because we both are very interested in teaching children about money. I heard about your book, The Wisest Investment: Teaching Your Kids to Be Responsible, Independent, and Money Smart for Life and I had to have you on the podcast, so welcome.

Robin Taub:
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, so this book, full disclosure, it is a book that is has Canadian references, but I think there's a lot of lessons that are universal and cross the international border between the US and Canada so I think that we're going to have a lot to discuss.

Robin Taub:
Good.

Bobbi Rebell:
Starting with the fact that you specialize in teaching parents how to teach their kids about money and in the book you go through different ages. You really start at the very youngest ages. It is the holiday season. It's a time when little kids may be asking for more and more and more, and this may be a time when things slow down a little bit with the older kids, the kids in elementary, middle school, maybe even high school, they may have more time to be around you. What kind of opening does this create for parents to have those discussions about money and money lessons with their children?

Robin Taub:
I think with holidays and gifts, you can have a talk about needs versus wants because I think this is the time of year where everyone wants the fun things, the things that are not must haves for survival, but the nice to haves. So having a conversation with your kids about what things cost and if they're working, how many hours it would take to work, they would have to work to earn something like the equivalent of what they want. Just talking about things like even buyer's remorse and thinking before you buy something, being more mindful about your spending.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing that parents want to teach their children about obviously is being generous and giving. What kind of opportunities are presented around that during the holiday season?

Robin Taub:
I think you could be going with your kids to a place where they're giving out hot meals to people that are homeless or having trouble this time of year. It could be donating dry goods or new toys to an organization that's collecting for families that are in need this year. I feel like doing a project like that as a family really does help put things into perspective if your kids are developing a sense of entitlement and it just opens their eyes up to the fact that not everyone lives the way that they do. It teaches them to be grateful for what they have, which I think is a really important message all year round but especially around the holidays when they can be a little bit demanding of all the things on their list.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some good ways to even open the conversation about money with kids, especially at the younger ages, if they don't show an interest in it and they don't really ask you? How do you even bring it up?

Robin Taub:
Yeah. As you mentioned, my book does start at the younger end around five, and I say that it usually does start when they go to school like preschool and they can see what other kids have and do and they might start expressing a curiosity around money. If they haven't initiated it and you think that they already based on their maturity, you can start with cash and you can start by showing them bills and coins and how you use those to pay for things, assuming you still do here and there. You would play county games with money. Canadian money's actually a lot more colorful and interesting than American money. That's something that I did when my kids were little, but it's always about sharing age appropriate information. You're going to interest a five year old in things that are outside of their little world. What does an ice cream cost and what does an apple cost? What about this toy that they want? How much does that cost, and showing them how you would actually add that up with cash and pay for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing that is interesting is in the book you talk about if a little boy, I forget if it was a little boy or a little girl, whatever, if a child wants something and they're short, like they have a certain amount of money at the store and they come up short, many parents, and I myself have been guilty of this, pony up the last dime or whatever it is, you say not to do that.

Robin Taub:
Yeah, there is a story in the book about letting your child walk away empty-handed because they didn't have enough, they hadn't saved enough, or maybe it was a simple question if they didn't have enough for the tax, the sales tax. Again, that's another really good teachable moment because it's not just the sticker price, it's all these additional taxes. Yeah, it's really hard as parents not to rescue your kids and you say you've done it, I know I've done it, and you're standing there and they're so disappointed, but it is a really important lesson that they have to understand that money's a finite resource and you have to do some planning and you have to do some research and know what things cost and whether you have enough.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's interesting because that's sort of an evergreen lesson and many of the books lessons are evergreen, but the book is actually 10 years old and you've updated it. Tell me about what changed over the last decade when you went back and looked at it, how has the world changed and therefore, the way that we teach our children about money has changed?

Robin Taub:
Quite a bit, it's changed quite a bit, and in two major ways, I would say. The first is that we live in an increasingly cashless and digital society. With young kids you still want to teach them with cash because it's tangible and concrete and it's not as conceptual but older kids are ready to learn about digital money, but that has been a huge change. We are rarely using cash anymore. We are tapping, we are using our phones, everything's being done from our phone or computer. A lot of people were taught about money using jars and using cash and sort of when you run out, then you know you can't spend anymore. Well, that doesn't really happen anymore. We also don't feel that same pain of loss that you feel when you hand money over to somebody, when you just tap. It just doesn't feel that same visceral feeling.

Robin Taub:
You have to build some of that friction back into the system. As much as technology has made spending so much easier, and it's really changed the game on how we manage money, you can also use it to help you. I think that this move to digital has been huge in how we teach our kids and some of the challenges.

Robin Taub:
The other thing was COVID, was the pandemic. It just felt like it was a wake up call for parents. Well, for everyone really, about being prepared financially and about the importance of making sure the next generation is prepared, whether it's something crazy like a pandemic where things were shut down for a while and some people weren't able to work or be prepared for something good like some kind of a financial windfall. On the downside, a lot of people didn't have emergency money and they were really scrambling until the government stepped in with assistance. Just how important it is to have that safety net built.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you think that the pandemic made or created a situation where parents were more candid with their children about money?

Robin Taub:
I think that especially teenagers and older kids, they are aware of what's going on in the house and I think it is catalyst for some difficult conversations. You want your child to have some context as to what's happening in the household, if you have to say, no, maybe this year celebrations are not going to be what they have been in the past for that reason, but you all also have to take on the responsibility of managing the household. You don't want to overburden your child with too much information or worry them, even teachable moments like taking your kid grocery shopping, that was such a go-to example, and all of a sudden no one was going to grocery stores, everyone was shopping online so just how do you then use those as opportunities to teach your kids?

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you can also sit at the computer with your kid and go shopping online with your kids all the same.

Robin Taub:
Yeah, for sure.

Bobbi Rebell:
The other interesting thing is that you talk about digital tools. We can also see when I ... I no longer give my child actual cash. He has a debit card that actually works through digital, is through his phone on Apple Pay and so I can see everything he buys. How would you recommend, sometimes I don't like what he buys. How would you handle this with a child? How do you discuss what they're buying when they don't necessarily fully understand that you see everything?

Robin Taub:
Yeah. Well, is your child a teenager?

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, this one is. He's 14, yes. But any kid that has a debit card, I think it's a great tool because you used to, you'd give them money and you kind of don't know exactly but here you can see. They were at Dunkin' Donuts at 3:30 PM with their friends after school.

Robin Taub:
Yeah. That's a good example. You're right. With cash it's not traceable, so he might have been doing that. You just didn't know about it. With teenagers, the allowance that you're giving them, assuming you're having a conversation or I recommend parents do have a conversation about it, what are the expectations? Is it just for their wants? Is it for just going to Dunkin Donuts after school? Or is it supposed to cover some other things, maybe cell phone or ... Have that conversation about who's paying for, what are they working? Are they contributing also? Are you just paying for everything in the household? Most parents aren't charging teenage kids living at home rent or anything like that. But just going over what their daily spending or their weekly spending looks like.

Robin Taub:
Then I would sort of try and step back because you don't want to fight every little battle, as you know as a parent. You don't want to be arguing over every wasteful coffee or drink or fast food meal that they buy. If you've kind of got the big picture category sorted out, you're giving them some money for entertainment and some money for transportation and clothes, and I think within that, you want to let them do what they want because they are going to make mistakes and waste money and you kind of want them to, because that's how you learn.

Robin Taub:
Speaking of coffee, my daughter went through a phase in high school where she was going to Starbucks all the time after school. I know when I would take my kids to Starbucks, I wouldn't get anything because it was expensive when for two or three people. When she was going every day herself, she was spending 5, $6 at a pop, so that could be $30 a week.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you ever talk to your daughter when you were going to Starbucks with all of them and buying them treats and not-

Robin Taub:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Not buying yourself. Would you say to them, "I'm buying you, but I'm not buying myself because it's too expensive?"

Robin Taub:
Yes, I would.

Bobbi Rebell:
It didn't work, Robin, they didn't-

Robin Taub:
I know.

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:13:36]

Robin Taub:
It might make me look cheap, but I didn't really care because I was like, "I don't really need this or want this that badly," and it was more like an outing so it was like, "Happy to buy it for you guys, but I don't need this so I'm not going to spend the money on myself." But I think it became for her the social thing. It was like they went en masse after school as a group and you don't want to be the odd kid out and whatever, but it can really add up. My son was the same, but for him it was cans of pop at a convenience store across the street. If you bring up from home, it's way cheaper.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you handle that peer pressure to spend money with kids? Because that's what you're talking about.

Robin Taub:
It is and it's so hard now because it's in person and it's online with social media and social commerce and stuff. Yeah. It's a really hard thing. Again, I think it goes back to needs versus wants. Just emphasizing that with your kids, first we have to take care of the must-haves for survival and then if there's money left over for the nice haves, okay. When they start working, even as teenagers and they have to earn some of their own money to pay for some of the things that they have FOMO over or peer pressure over and they know that they have to work a certain number of hours to be able to afford that thing, it makes it a lot more real for them. When they're spending their own money compared to when they're spending yours, it just hurts more.

Robin Taub:
Even if you've given them that money as an allowance, as you were saying, it's still their money and they have ownership over it and they know if they spend it on this, they won't have it left over for that. It forces them to make these choices. I think that's another way. Doing those family philanthropy projects that we talked about maybe around the holidays, but all times of year schools are always doing fundraisers, just also reinforces the fact that life is not just about consuming and having the latest this and the greatest that, and just having some kind of a gratitude practice, even informally at home like going around the dinner table and everyone sharing one thing that happened that week that they're grateful for, it just changes the context from this whole got to have it, got to have it now, I deserve it to life's about a lot more than just stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
What's your number one money tip for parents?

Robin Taub:
I think for parents it's to try to get their own financial house in orders so that they can be good financial role models and lead by example. Kids are watching and listening and learning and they are aware of both the good and the bad money habits in the home. They're modeling us, we are their role models for so many areas, including with money. I think that's an easy way, in some ways it's hard if you haven't done that, if you're not financially on top of things, but if you are then just by doing what you do normally you're teaching your kids. They have a good example to follow.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Where can people follow up with you and be in touch?

Robin Taub:
I have this book that has now been updated called The Wisest Investment and that is the name of the website where you can find it and links to it as well as some free resources. I actually have an exercise from the book that will help parents figure out if they're a good financial role model and how they could become one. That's all on thewisestinvestment.com and then on social media, I'm Robin Taub which is T-A-U-B.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Robin Taub:
Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
So much great stuff in that interview, especially that last part about the fact that whether we are aware of it or not, the kids are watching how we talk about money and they are probably a lot more aware of what is going on with us financially than we realize, especially to so many of us were home so much more with those kids around in the last year and a half. I love this topic and I am so excited to start sharing more about my next book, Launching Financial Grownups with all of you soon. To learn more about it, please go to my website, bobbirebelle.com, you can learn more just in the dropdown menu, click on books, but also sign up for my newsletter. There's an invitation right there waiting for you when you go to the website and I will keep you posted.

Bobbi Rebell:
In the meantime, I would love to hear your tips on this topic or if you have any more questions or topic suggestions that you want to hear more about on the podcast. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell, and big thanks to The Wisest Investment author, Robin Taub, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find in the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebelle.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media at Bobby rebel, one on Instagram @bobbierebell1 and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share the is podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your Grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Authors, Women Role Models, MoneyBobbi Rebell KaufmanMoney Tips, Robin Taub, The Wisest Investment, Author, Kids and Money, Kids, Smart Kids
Brainstorm while sleepy + 10 other money making tips from Mindstorms author Kathleen Celmins.
Brainstorm while sleepy + 10 other money making tips from Mindstorms author Kathleen Celmins.
 

Learn from Mindstorms author Kathleen Celmins how to know which ideas are worth monetizing vs. keeping as a hobby, why and how you should record and watch yourself speaking on video, and specific to come up with a business idea that you can monetize.

11 Money Tips to making more money

  • Drill down to find your expertise- do this while sleepy- you should be able to smile at every topic when you are done with the list

  • It’s the small ideas that make a lot of money

  • Not all hobbies and interests are meant to be monetized

  • Find your over arching topic, idea and word

  • Record yourself on video talking about your ideas- then watch it

  • People are willing to pay to solve problems- come up with a list of problems you can solve

  • Write a book and step on a stage

  • Create digital products

  • Every 90 days find a new income stream to build

  • How to battle resistance

  • Build content on what you own not rent because the rules can change

 
 

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list, that includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love. But the truth is it's also really hard and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you're the grownup either." And new colors and designs of our top selling Generosity line. And, for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity collection, then we'll gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code HOLIDAY, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. And thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays, guys.

Kathleen Celmins:
So, what are the problems that you can solve? Not what are the problems you can solve better than anyone else in the world, but what are some of the problems that people come to you with and leave with a resolution?

Bobbi Rebell:
You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebel author of how to be a financial grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome everyone to a episode of the money tips for financial grown ups podcast. I'm your host, Bobbi Rebell. Let's start today with a question, do you ever stop and think what if I could make money not doing my job, but doing something I love? Really, stop running around and focus. Are you thinking that now? I'm not going to tell you to just go for it. In fact, in many cases, you should not go do what you love for money. That is the advice from this week's grownup guest, Amplify Now's Kathleen Celmins.

Bobbi Rebell:
Her new book, MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur has a lot of what to do, but just as importantly has some very big don'ts. And, trust me, I've done the don'ts, it's not good. You got to listen to Kathleen. There were so many incredible nuggets of wisdom in her book we raced through about 11, but we just barely touched the surface. So, don't worry about taking notes. As a reminder, everything is on my website, bobbirebell.com just go to the Podcast tab, show notes, you'll get the full transcript. But meanwhile, listen up. She's really good. Here is Kathleen Celmins.

Bobbi Rebell:
Kathleen Celmins, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm happy to have you. You've given me so much informal advice over the years about how I can monetize various business ventures of mine. I've taken some of your advice, I probably should take all of your advice because I'd be a lot wealthier by now, but I'm excited that you're going to your wisdom with all of our listeners.

Kathleen Celmins:
Well, thank you so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
And to that point, you wrote a book that is going to be very helpful to our listeners called MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur. This book sort of echoes the kinds of things that you do with your in-person clients. So everyone can it at their own pace at home. I have 11 tips that I took away from this book. We're going to try to plow through them as quickly as possible to get them all into the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
The first one... And, by the way, you say that you should do these a little bit sleepy. I want you to explain why, while you answer the first one, which is that you're going to drill down to find your expertise. So, you're going to do this while you're sleepy. Tell us about that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. Especially this first one, because if you do it first thing in the morning, you think, "Well, I don't even know how I brushed my teeth this morning. Like I don't know anything about anything. I'll never figure it out." But if you take your whole day and you do a bunch throughout the day and you get out of your desk, you get out of your office, you go out into the world, and somebody asks you for advice and you come back and you think, "Well, I did give somebody advice today. And I actually last week I give somebody advice too." By the end of the day, when you're tired is when you are the most creative. It's not when you should balance your checkbook, or do anything mathematic, but it's when you can really think about your ideas.

Kathleen Celmins:
And so, when you're drilling down on your expertise, there's a lot of different ways to come about it. It's what do you love doing? I don't start with that, but what do people ask you about? What are you the go-to expert in at work? What do your friends ask you about? What section of the bookstore or the library do you head toward every time without fail? That's different for everybody. What are the ordinary things that you find yourself explaining frequently that come really easy to you, but you see people taking a bunch of notes on? That's a good starting point for people who think, "Man, there's a lot of money out there to be made. I don't know how to get a piece of it." To me, that's a really good place to start.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, like you said, when you're at the end of the day, you sort of have this cumulative knowledge of all the things that you've been saying all day, and maybe some of those ideas will bubble to the top and be top of mind. And, hopefully, you'll smile at all of the topics.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number two, it is the small ideas that make a lot of money. That's kind of counterintuitive because I always think like we're waiting for the big idea. It's the small ideas you say.

Kathleen Celmins:
Maybe small ideas, isn't the right word. But it's the most simple, the thing you could put on a bumper sticker. There's a lot of profound wisdom to be found in the smallest thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number three, not all hobbies and interests are meant to be monetized.

Kathleen Celmins:
That's kind of a note to myself or even all of the entrepreneur friends that I have. My example was a friend of mine asked me to photograph her wedding. And I thought, "Oh, that'd be really fun. I really like her. I love her fiance. I have a fun camera. I need a new light. Okay, whatever. That sounds fun." And I had a great time. We did an engagement session. I did wedding photos and it was really, really fun. And I came home and I thought, "I'm keeping that as a hobby because I don't want to take away the joy of just grabbing my camera and going out and photographing the sunset." If everything can be monetized, and everything, can you have to keep something sacred. And you have to kind of test to see where that line is. It's really hard to do, but it's the sort of thing where you want to keep your beginner's mindset, your amateur's mentality. It helps a lot.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I think that's really important to remember in this age where everyone says, "Follow your passion for your career," but maybe your passion should just be your passion. That's okay too. That's really important to remember that sometimes work can be work depending on it shouldn't be miserable, but it's okay for work to be work.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number four, find your overarching topic, idea, and word. So this is sort of an exercise that people go through.

Kathleen Celmins:
Right so in one of the MINDSTORMS, we talk about expertise and you come up with a whole bunch of lists. And then one of the things you do is you highlight, and circle, and underline or whatever the things that show up on more than one list. Those are the kinds of things that you think about. Like you putting your ideas, you're downloading your brain into folders those are the titles on the outside of your folders.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number five, this is something that I think a lot of your students kind of were hesitant about, but it is record yourself on video talking about your idea, and then watch it. The second part being even harder, I think. I have trouble watching myself and I make a living doing video content basically.

Kathleen Celmins:
Me too, and me too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah.

Kathleen Celmins:
It is hard. You will find though, where you stumble. And the more you practice, and the more you dig into why you're stumbling, the better you can be about articulating your ideas in the future.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what do you say to people that just are so hesitant?

Kathleen Celmins:
Don't publish it anywhere. Don't do it on YouTube Live. Just put it on your phone and watch it yourself. To your same point about not every hobby needs to be monetized, not everything you do on your phone, or on your computer needs to be public.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's such a good reminder.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, the next one is people are willing to pay to solve problems. So, come up with a list of problems you can solve. This, I think, is so important because there's so many products out there and ideas that may sound like a great idea, but if it doesn't solve a problem it's really hard to monetize sometimes.

Kathleen Celmins:
It's also really hard to talk about complicated solutions. And so, the more complex your solution, the more likely you are, as a person, as a business owner, to really talk about the details of the solution. But remembering that people do pay to solve problems period. And that's another way to get at what your expertise is. So, what are the problems that you can solve? Not what are the problems you can solve better than anyone else in the world, but what are some of the problems that people come to you with, and leave with a resolution?

Kathleen Celmins:
The more you can drill down on that, the easier it is to sell. If the problem you're solving is how to look good on your Instagram feed all day, every day. Great. That is a very specific problem you can solve. That's not mine, but...

Bobbi Rebell:
But it does sell. I mean people will absolutely pay to have someone help them with their social media.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number seven, very near and dear to my heart and to yours, write a book and step on a stage.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. And those are hard as I have just recently found out.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Kathleen Celmins:
But it's a really good way to package up a lot of the things that you know. And writing a book is really challenging for the simple reason that you think you have to distill all of the knowledge you've ever gained into one book. And so, one of the things I say in the book is no, write your first of 10 books. Commit to writing 10 books. Then, that first one is nowhere near the mountain it was when you thought you had to write your odyssey, basically, on that. And stepping on a stage is hard also but, depending on who you are, it's nowhere near as hard as writing a book.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I agree with that. And stepping on stage, once you're on stage, it's much easier. It's the moment before you go on that's really the hardest.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number eight, create digital products. This is something I have really struggled with. You've urged me to do a video course and I am pushing back on you. I'm a bad student. All right, create digital products. Tell us more about that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah so, let's take the how to look good on your Instagram feed all day, every day. That's a very specific problem that you can solve. And it's probably not one you can just say, "Be yourself and smile more." One of the things you want to do is really show people exactly the step by step process. And, in order to do that, you give them the steps they need. And so, that can take a lot of different forms.

Kathleen Celmins:
Digital courses are really popular right now. Independent one on one coaching can be something you do. In fact, I say to lead with that because if you're coaching somebody through it, take notes, tell them, "First thing you need to do is make sure you have good lighting." Oh, good. Okay so, step one, lighting. So, then you're building out your digital product as you're getting paid to.

Bobbi Rebell:
So smart.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number nine, every 90 days find a new income stream to build. So, you're doing that. Are you keeping the old ones, or you're sort of dropping the ones that weren't working every 90 days?

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah so, it totally depends.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Kathleen Celmins:
So 90 days, to me, I think of that meme, the diamond mine, one where the person turns around right before they get the big diamond. You want to make sure you give it a full 90 days and, again, a lot of this is notes to myself, or my past self. That got to a point where I was convinced that people didn't need marketing help at one point, because I had not asked more than a handful of people, if they needed marketing help. And if I had not given it that full 90 days, spoiler alert, they do. Everybody needs marketing. But if you don't give it the full effort, if you don't decide to commit to something for an entire quarter, you're going to give up before you hit that diamond.

Kathleen Celmins:
And, to your point, not every one of them is going to hit. Maybe this market isn't interested in that solution. You're not going to know that until you've had conversations for three months. And so, giving yourself permission to change every three months, but also give yourself permission to stay the course for three months. Because every 90 days sounds, when we're talking about it, sounds like no time at all. But, when you're in the middle of it, feels like forever. The consistency will pay off down the line.

Bobbi Rebell:
The next one is build content on what you own not rent because the rules can change.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yes. So, you only own two things, and you don't even really because you're renewing your domain, but the two things you own are your website content and your email list. Everything else is at the mercy of somebody else's algorithm. And the algorithm is set up to make the people stay on that platform. Not to help individual business owners grow their own businesses on their platform. That's true across the board. So that's true with all social media platforms. It's true with course platforms. It's true with email lists that get your content.

Kathleen Celmins:
So if you have a newsletter, keep it on something that you can always access. If you have a course, make sure you know the rules of who owns your content. For a lot of times, the content is owned by, or kept hostage by the course platform. I have a former client who had a course that was selling really well, and then had six chargebacks in three weeks. And the platform locked her out of the content that she created. She could not communicate with. So, there's a lot of things that seem really easy are really... To me it's like building a house on rented land. "Okay, you can have this house. You live in it as long as you want. I'll never charge you rent," until they do right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Kathleen Celmins:
Then you've got something you did not anticipate.

Bobbi Rebell:
The final thing I want to have you talk about is that commercial success is not passive. There are so many people out there talk about digital courses, on all this passive income tell us the deal.

Kathleen Celmins:
Okay, the only passive income are investments where your money is making money on its money. That's it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Like stocks, you're talking about stocks, things like that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. Anything like that, where you put money in the market and you decide to take it out another time. That's it, that's the long and short of passive income. The rest of it takes a lot of work, which is why it's worth thinking about in terms of, yes, there's so much money to be made on the internet where, at the very beginning of it, you can have your piece of it, but it's not something where you can just set up a sales page and then get your Lamborghini tomorrow.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. And even people talk about real estate is passive income. It's not passive because you're either managing it yourself, dealing with tenants, or whatever, the electricity is out, or you're paying a management company. Someone has to be in charge. And so, therefore it's never passive.

Kathleen Celmins:
Right. Really, honestly, the only passive income is when your money is making money on itself in the stock market in general. So, thinking about that in terms of you're going to build this, you're going to build something, you're going to download ideas from your brain you can't just sit back and wait for something to happen. You got to work toward it and it's worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I think your book MINDSTORMS is definitely going to help a lot of people that can't get to you. Personally, reading really feels like you're there with you in a session with your three or four, a tight group going through these exercises. I particularly loved the back half of the book because you're very specific about exactly what to do and the steps to take. It's not one of these sort of just thoughtful books where you're just thinking about things. There's actual steps of specific things that people should be doing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about where we can find the book and where we can learn more about you and all of your stuff going on, all of your products.

Kathleen Celmins:
Sure. Thank you for saying that the book has its own URL. It's mindstormsbook.com and then I am, myself, on all of my social media. So I'm @KathleenCelmins on Instagram and Twitter, I have a lower presence on Facebook. But my business website is amplified, past tense, now.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that name.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thanks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for being here.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. This was wonderful.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, much great advice from Kathleen. I've gotten a lot, as I said, behind the scenes over the years. And I'm really glad that I was able to share some of her experience, and her guidance with all of you. So, definitely check out the book because there's a lot more there.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I related to so much of what we went over, especially the idea of not just speaking on video, I don't have so much trouble speaking on video, but watching myself back, that is really hard for me. It's part of why I'm bad about posting my appearances on TV, and the quotes in the press on my social media. I post a small fraction and I really should be better at that because do get a lot of nice feedback, and support from you guys when I do do that. So, hopefully, I'm sort of manifesting it by staying out loud. Hopefully, some of you will hold me accountable to it and I'll start posting a little bit more of those to share with you guys because they are kind of fun and I do enjoy it when I get the feedback from all of you. So thank you for that.

Bobbi Rebell:
And thank you also for listening and supporting this podcast. If you're any value out of this, please consider giving back by sharing on social media. Tag me, of course. Or write a review, or even just make sure that you're subscribed. It's now called follow on some platforms. So, this podcast, I do it for you guys. I don't make any money on this podcast. I don't take outside advertisers. I just share with you my Grownup Gear, which I hope you do support grownupgear.com. So, helping me grow the show is really all that I ask in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please make sure to check out Kathleen's book, MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur. And, of course, big thanks to Kathleen Celmins for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends, and treating yourself as well. And, most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Authors, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Startup, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanKathleen Celmins, Mindstorming, Authors, Make Money, Brainstorm, Money Tips, Amplified Now
Money Tips to be a Wallet Activist with author Tanja Hester
Money Tips to be a Wallet Activist with author Tanja Hester
 

Want to have more money AND a better planet? Learn what we can control that really matters- and what we are over stressing about when it comes to climate change, waste, carbon offsets, plastic straws and all those questions about which milk to order from Wallet Activist author Tanja Hester. 

Money Tips

  • Why you might want to consider joining the sharing economy

  • Donating isn’t always a good thing.

  • Learn what some alternatives are.

  • Beware the DIY trap

  • What it means to factor in your own financial well being and how to do that

 
 

Follow Tanja!


Follow Bobbi!




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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love. But the truth is, it's also really hard and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear, with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you are the grownup either." And new colors and designs of our top selling Generosity Line. And for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity Collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code holiday. Holiday. Thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays, guys.

Tanja Hester:
I love the idea of actually making yourself face up to your food waste, like put a bucket in the fridge or in the freezer and collect all the food waste that your family, or you, create for a week, two weeks, whatever it takes. Then I think most people, when you see it, it's sort of like when you really see what you're spending your money on, it's very eye-opening and that can be really motivating.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of, How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, everyone. That opening clip, from Tanja Hester, it's a bit much, while it would certainly be very impactful for my family, if we all put our wasted food in a bucket, in our refrigerator for a week, to see just how bad we are with wasting food. We already know that. Let's just be honest. We know we're terrible at it. So, that's part of why I wanted to talk to Tanja. And if her name by the way, sounds familiar, that's because she's been here before talking about her first book, Work Optional. Even though she is technically retired, that's the title of her book, Tanja is so passionate out the topic for her new book, Wallet Activism, that she couldn't help but write at least one more book. Tanja is also a familiar name to many of you because of her successful blog, Our Next Life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now in our interview, Tanja and I talk about everything from the sharing economy on a practical basis, because we say that a lot, but I don't know if we really do it in real life. Also, her unique take on Marie Kondo, when it matters to buy organic or even grass-fed, and also why I'm being ripped off when I get oat milk in my coffee and they charge me more. Apparently, it doesn't really cost more. We're going to learn a lot more from Tanja about kind of how everything fits into the ecosystem. It's pretty interesting stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here is Wallet Activism, author Tanja Hester.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tanja Hester. You're a financial grownup. Welcome back to the podcast.

Tanja Hester:
Thank you so much for having me back.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am excited to have you back to talk about your latest project. It's a book and it's a podcast called Wallet Activism: How To Use Every Dollar You Spend, Earn And Save, As A Force For Change. This is a follow-up book, well really a separate book, but your second book, to Work Optional, which I really enjoyed and was a huge bestseller. So congratulations and welcome back.

Tanja Hester:
Thank you so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's talk about the money tips that you share in Wallet Activists. The first one has to do with the sharing economy and kind of taking it to a next level. This is not just about sharing an Uber ride and that kind of thing. This is about just don't buy stuff.

Tanja Hester:
Share it.

Bobbi Rebell:
But you have various specific ways this can actually happen because some people, myself included as I started to read this part of the book, are doing some eye rolls right now.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah, you know, I think that the way that our economy and society have gone, they've worked to make everything cheaper, so that we've been trained out of thinking of different ways of acquiring something.

Tanja Hester:
So let's say you're doing a home improvement project and you think, "Oh, I'm going to need a saw for this." You look at Home Depot, it's only $60 to buy a saw and you think, "Oh, that's not bad. I'll just buy it." But then suddenly we've got a situation where we all have a ton of stuff sitting around that's really resource intensive to produce, impossible to recycle, that'll be obsolete after however many years, or it'll just sit in your garage or closet and rust and not be usable after a long time.

Tanja Hester:
But instead, we could all go back to how folks used to think about these things. I'm not saying this to like, oh, the good old days were the best or anything like that. But in this particular area, the idea of borrowing things or why does everyone on a block need own their own lawnmower? Why couldn't you share with different neighbors? Why couldn't you rent a saw or a drill for the project and then give it back and someone else can use it.

Tanja Hester:
A lot of the tips that I offer, I think this is a good example, are both good for the planet and other people, so we're not contributing a whole bunch of demand for stuff that's ultimately just going through our resources, resulting in a lot of carbon emissions, resulting in exploitation of workers, but it's also saving you money. You know, renting a power tool is a lot cheaper than buying it. The same is true if you share something across multiple neighbors, or friends, or whatever makes sense in your situation. Obviously not everybody has a house and a yard, but fill in the blanks with your stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
You talk throughout the book, by the way, about factoring in your own financial wellbeing and it's important to look out for yourself and don't always be... The dominant thing doesn't have to always be giving, giving, giving. Part of giving is creating your own financial foundation and maintaining it.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also say some things that make sense, but only after you explain it, because they're a little bit counterintuitive. For example, Marie Kondo, cleaning out. Minimalism has been a big trend, but it's not really that simple. You have some interesting thoughts about donations and what we do with our stuff because we all have so much stuff. We think we're doing good when we donate it and we certainly have good intentions, but explain. It's not so simple, right?

Tanja Hester:
Yeah. You know, the most important part to me of Marie's message is actually take good care of the things that you own and help them last longer. I think that part's been totally lost in favor of, trash anything that doesn't spark joy. The problem is that we have such a huge flow of things going to donation centers. You know, everybody loves to take their garbage bags full of stuff to Goodwill, that most of what Goodwill does is actually not sell our discards. It's actually throw them away and they pay a huge amount of money every month, as do other charitable organizations that take donations in physical form, just to send stuff to the landfill.

Tanja Hester:
I think if we all knew that what we were donating was most likely either going to the landfill or worse, getting loaded on a ship and sent to Africa, where it was decimating local textile industries, I think we would be a lot more thoughtful about it, but we feel like we're sending stuff out and it's doing good rather than we're sending stuff to the trash, I think we would approach things differently.

Tanja Hester:
So, I propose a different standard rather than sparking joy or using it, and thinking instead about, could I get more useful life out of this and maybe it's repurposing it in some way. It doesn't have to be wearing a dress that you hate forever, or a dress that doesn't fit. You know, it's thinking, could I use the fabric and make something else with it or whatever it might be. If you can't that, then working a little bit harder to put those items, you're discarding into the hands of someone who will actually use them, rather than just sort of blindly sending them off to the donation center.

Tanja Hester:
So rather whether it's trading with friends, or listing things online, or on a buy nothing group, there's so many different options now for discarding things a bit more thoughtfully, that will make sure we're not just sending huge amounts of stuff to the landfill and even worse than filling that empty space with new stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Very well said. And you have a lot of specific resources in the book and through your website, et cetera, that we can refer people to, to get more details on how to actually do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another interesting thing, we're talking about activism, but also money tips, is to be aware of the DIY trap. People think if they do it themselves, they're going to save money and it's all good and it's great, but there's a lot to be wary about there.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah. You know, I think if folks have hobbies that are doing things yourself, making kombucha, for example, that can actually be a great way to save resources because you don't need special gear to make kombucha versus buying a steady stream of bottles from the store. If you like to drink it often, you can reuse the same bottles over and over and over, if you make it yourself.

Tanja Hester:
But there are other things that are DIY where you sort of say, "Well, you know, if everyone just did this ourselves, we'd actually save resources." And that's in fact not true. If we all tried to grow all our own food, think about how much more equipment we'd all need. We'd all need hoses and tools and all the things you need to garden. I garden myself. It's my favorite hobby, but I do it because I love it, not because I'm under any illusions about it being some better way, where we'd also have to all spread out across the land when we should be leaving more of that land alone so that it can sequester carbon and just not have human impact on it.

Tanja Hester:
I think about a lot of folks I know here who love to home brew. And if you really love that and you're going to do it for a long time, that's great. But if you're thinking, "Oh, I buy a lot of beer and that comes with cans and bottles." Think about how much gear you actually need to do home brewing. You need all these buckets and you need metal tubes and you need a lot of stuff. And if you do what a lot of folks do, which is invest in all the gear and then give up that hobby, you've now gotten a whole bunch of stuff that's very specialized, that you can't easily use for other things, and then you're still having all the waste of the bottles and cans. Which by the way, bottles and cans, people shouldn't stress about. Just make sure they get recycled. Those are actually recycled at a high rate and are not a huge deal.

Tanja Hester:
So, that's really where I say it. It's also, I don't want anyone to feel pressure to DIY things, when you have a very busy life and you've got demands on your time. You need to work. You need to earn a living. All the things you need to do. I say, do DIY stuff if you love it, if it's fulfilling to you in some way but don't feel like you must. If that's not something that's doable for you, there are other good ways to be a wallet activist.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that theme that also runs throughout your book where you do talk about the fact that people should be realistic about what they can do. It doesn't have to be all at once. You don't need to overhaul your life immediately upon reading the book and treat it like a checklist and go through each thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And most importantly, don't be judgy about other people. You make a big point about the fact that if you feel passionate about something like I don't eat meat and it's for a number of reasons, but I'm also aware of a lot of the things that you talk about in the book. But I don't tell other people not to do that. I just say, "I don't eat meat," and I leave it at that. Let them do that. If they ask you more questions, then absolutely you can share some more information, but it's important to not impose your views too strongly because it can backfire.

Tanja Hester:
It absolutely can backfire. You know, I think there is ample research to show that shaming people doesn't work. Shaming corporations, that can work.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. That's a PR campaign. That's a whole different thing.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah. Shaming, very, very wealthy people can work in some instances. But shaming individuals really doesn't work and so there's no point in doing it.

Tanja Hester:
But the other thing and something that I really set out to do with this book is to balance both environmental concerns and human concerns. Oftentimes, those things are posited as opposites, as you can do one but not the other, and I just reject that. I think it's so important that we start thinking about both our fellow humans and the planet together and when we talk about climate change, that we're also talking about inequality and how all of that ties together. That's a big part of it.

Tanja Hester:
I think sometimes in the interest of making an environmental choice, we do things that hurt people. An example I use in the book is the popularity right now of plastic drinking straw bans that are going into place all over the country, all over the world. Those are doing a lot of harm actually to disabled communities. There's this thought of like, "Well, but you have all these other choices. You could use a paper straw." Well guess what? A lot of disabled folks say those don't work. They don't work in hot beverages. They aren't positionable.

Tanja Hester:
Okay, well what about that fancy stainless steel straw? Well, not everyone can afford that. First of all, they're expensive. And second, how are you supposed to clean that on the go and use it every time you're out and about. And so we just aren't having enough of that conversation of balancing both. And so if you're talking about shaming people who use single use plastics, or my favorite is seeing the tweet, that's like, "Hey, look at this peeled apple that's wrapped in plastic." Like, yeah. Okay. That is a lot of plastic. That's a bummer. But guess what? The people who need that are people with disabilities, where they can't use their hands properly, or they don't trust themselves to use a knife.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to go through kind of a quick hits list of food advice because this was my favorite area of the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
First of all, the question on everyone's mind, the whole organic thing and I'm going to throw in there the whole grass-fed thing, because my son Bradley, he wanted everything grass-fed for a while and it's really expensive, but is it bad if we don't buy grass-fed everything and organic everything? I know the prices are coming down for organic, but talk to us.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah, it's funny. Organic is often posited as sort of the panacea. This will fix everything and if you actually look at the science of it, and I say this as a person who loves to buy organic, so I'm talking to myself here too. The truth is a lot of organically produced food actually has a much bigger climate impact than things that are produced more conventionally.

Tanja Hester:
With grass-fed beef, for example, or grass-fed dairy, the cows have to live a lot longer because grass is much less caloric than the grain they're fed in feed lots and so the cows who live in feed lots, those are terrible conditions. I think we can all agree on that and they have a lot of waste they have to deal with. It's not a good system. We need to reform it, but those cows live less than half as long, to get to the same size as the cows that are fed grass.

Tanja Hester:
So if we are just looking at how much beef we want to produce, grass-fed actually has a much, much higher climate impact. So that's not to say-

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah. It's not to say the industrial side is great, but organic is not automatically a cure-all. I recommend that folks look at organic for most animal products, if possible, and certain produce, especially things that are grains, so that you're avoiding Roundup glyphosate. But I think folks will be shocked to hear that I recommend a lot of non-organic too, because of both the climate impact and the worker impact.

Tanja Hester:
There are a lot more injuries associated with organic fruits and vegetables because they have to do absolutely everything by hand. So those are important things to consider that I haven't seen be included in the conversation so far.

Bobbi Rebell:
What do we do about the whole milk options thing? Because first I was putting almond milk in my coffee. I felt really good about it and then I heard it was really bad. Now I'm doing oat milk but I also feel like rice milk. But I know from your book, rice milk is also not so good. So what do we do? What do we do, Tanja? And the price is that they're always charging me more for... I mean, do we have to pay more for the oat milk? Is it really more for the oat milk or are the coffee place is just charging us more because they can?

Tanja Hester:
With oat milk in particular, they're charging you more because they can. Oats are incredibly cheap to produce. If you were getting organic oats, which is actually really hard to find, that could be worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I have no idea.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
No idea.

Tanja Hester:
Most oats are sprayed with Roundup and people don't like hearing that, but the pesticide and herbicide levels in oat-based products are really high. In terms of dairy, non-dairy milks, I mean honestly, I think the answer I want to give folks is don't stress that much about it. Any plant-based milk is better for the planet, for people, for animal welfare, than dairy.

Tanja Hester:
So this getting ourselves tied up in knots about how many gallons go into a gallon of almond milk? Okay, yeah. Like that's true but it also is true that we're reforesting California Central Valley, when we grow almond trees that are replacing cotton, which is a much more water intensive crop.

Tanja Hester:
So everything exists on a spectrum. My point is not to try to get people twisted in knots. It's to say actually, stop twisting yourself in knots. If you're doing any non-dairy milk, you're doing great. Do organic with soy and with oat. With the rest, don't stress about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Final question before we wrap up. Give us your tips about food waste because food waste really costs people so much money, myself included. I am terrible at food inventory management. Things go bad all the time. I have the best intentions. I want to do a fancy recipe and then I'm missing one ingredient. I don't do it that night and then it just never happens and that fabulous herb that I bought goes bad. What do we do?

Tanja Hester:
Yeah. You know, food waste is a huge, huge problem. So some tips are, a lot of these I think folks have probably seen around, but making a meal plan before you shop, trying not to shop for a few weeks so that you can eat down what you already have. I love your example of the recipe. You know, don't buy some fad ingredient unless you have the recipe and have all the things for it and you know, you're going to make it right away.

Tanja Hester:
I love the idea of actually making yourself sort of face up to your food waste. Put a bucket in the fridge or in the freezer and collect all the food waste that your family or you create for a week, two weeks, whatever it takes. And then I think most people, when you see it, it's sort of like when you really see what you're spending your money on, it's very eyeopening and that can be really motivating. So once you see the types of foods you're wasting most, or where the sources are, you can start to come up with a plan. Maybe it's serving smaller portions for everyone, but letting them take seconds instead of putting big portions on the plate. Once you've sort of come face-to-face with your food waste, you can make a plan to reduce it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. I'm kind of sitting here processing that, getting ready to reveal that to my husband, who I'm sure will be thrilled to have all of our food waste in our refrigerator, front and center, for a week. So we're going to work on that here in my home, but in the meantime, Tanja, congratulations on the book again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where can people be in touch with you? I know the book is going to be available everywhere, so please pick up Wallet Activism, everyone. Where can they reach you?

Tanja Hester:
My website is ournextlife.com and I'm most active on Twitter and Instagram and that's at our_nextlife. I also recently joined TikTok, which is so embarrassing for a person over 40. That's @walletactivism.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love it and you have a podcast as well, right? Now with Wallet Activism?

Tanja Hester:
Yes, that's right. It's called Wallet Activism, same as the book, and you can find it in all the podcast places.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Tanja Hester:
Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many takeaways from our interview. I personally am bracing for a big post-pandemic closet clean-out and knowing what Tanja had to say about what really goes on when we donate clothing and other goods to charity is really making me think twice about what to do with all of that. So I'm definitely going to be checking out those, buy nothing groups, because I really have so much stuff that is perfectly good. I don't want to throw it out because it's perfectly good but if I said it to charity, well, it may not get to the right place either.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay my friends. There was a lot to digest in this episode, but do not stress. We have it all for you right on my website. You can get a full transcript of the show, along with resources and so on, by going to my website, Bobbirebell.com and just click on the podcast tab.

Bobbi Rebell:
What got you thinking in this interview? For me, it was the whole plastic straw thing. It shows we really have to think broadly about these decisions and there's a lot of gray areas out there. You really have to think through what this means for different people versus what this also means for our planet. It's complicated. DM me and let me know your take and what really stood out to you. On Instagram, I am at BobbiRebell1. The number one.

Bobbi Rebell:
Big thanks to Wallet Activism author, Tanja Hester, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, Bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a Financial Grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast, it's brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at Bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me, so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts reading. Each one means the world to me and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Authors, Advice, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanTanja Hester, Our Next Life, Work Optional, Wallet Activism