Learn the best advice, hacks and lessons to be your own self-made boss from top small business owners with authors Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg

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• Lauren’s Twitter - @WeinbergLauren

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• Website - https://www.selfmadeboss.com/

• Jackie and Lauren’s book - Self-Made Boss

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. This episode is sponsored by UNest. Start investing in your most important asset, your kids, with UNest. Soon you will also be able to give the gift of crypto. Join the UNest legacy wait list and get early access entry into giveaways and much more. Visit unest.co for more information.

Lauren Weinberg:
If you're in the food business, he talks about using a smaller plate when you're taking pictures of food, what time of day, how to capture the best light. He really goes into a lot of specific details, because if you think about social channels and all these places where people are getting information or where they're viewing content from business owners, the better you can put your brand out there with photography and how you portray things, the more likely you are to connect and breakthrough.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because you know what? Grownup life is really hard. But, together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
The money is in the details. If you want to succeed in business, my friends, wise words from Lauren Weinberg. She is the co-author of a new book, Self-Made Boss, that had me both smiling and taking notes as I read it. The other author is a longtime friend of mine, Jackie Reses. We went to Penn together, where we were also Tri Deltas.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jackie and Lauren met while working at Yahoo, and then worked together at Square, where they spent a lot of time with small business owners and entrepreneurs. Now they have come together with their first book, hopefully one of many, Self-Made Boss: Advice, Hacks, and Lessons from Small Business Owners.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview, we cover how businesses can leverage technology to connect more with customers, a great story about a pet-grooming business that you will definitely want to hear, upping the ante on the employee experience, creating an employee culture ... Super important these days when there's a lot of competition for workers, so you want to keep the good ones ... and how to set your company up to pass on to the next generation, although you also need to figure out if you even should.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here are Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg. Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg, you are both financial grownups. Welcome to the podcast.

Jackie Reses:
Thank you for having us.

Lauren Weinberg:
Yes, thanks for having us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Congrats on the book Self-Made Boss: Advice, Hacks, and Lessons from Small Business Owners. By the way, this is extra special because Jackie is a dear friend of mine going back to our days at University of Pennsylvania, where we were roommates and even, dare I say, Tri Delta sorority sisters. Oh my gosh. All right, before we get into the advice that you have for our listeners, you both met working at big companies. Tell us more about how you met and how this book was born.

Jackie Reses:
Sure. So we had the pleasure of meeting at Yahoo. We were both executives who ran the company. We then moved from Yahoo to Square. Lauren, I'll speak for you right now and just keep going for a second, and then you can introduce yourself.

Jackie Reses:
So Lauren is the chief marketing officer of Square. So wow, wow, wow. Incredible. And I ran banking and lending at Square and also the people team. And so, we had the benefit of working at a company that focuses on empowering small businesses and helping them start, run, and grow.

Jackie Reses:
And so, the idea was born out of listening to customers through the millions of Square sellers across the country, particularly in a pandemic, when we saw how much trauma was happening in the small business market. We understood some insights around how small businesses build community and learn and we thought this book would be an incredibly powerful guide to help them build their business.

Lauren Weinberg:
Yeah. I don't have too much to add to that other than, yes, Jackie and I met at Yahoo. We also were both New Yorkers who moved to California. So we shared that journey together of just moving our families across the country. We spent time in California walking around, because there was really nothing else you could do during the pandemic. We thought there's just this void of information.

Lauren Weinberg:
We also had the insight that more people than ever were starting their own businesses. That was true in 2020, where we saw more new business formations, and then again in 2021, where you have the great resignation where people aren't just leaving their jobs to sit home all day. They're leaving their jobs to go and start businesses.

Lauren Weinberg:
We thought, wow, anytime that there's these downturns in the economy or things are changing is a time where we tend to see a lot of innovation and new starts. And so, we thought the timing for putting a book like this out there with this kind of advice would be a good moment for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, it was definitely a good moment, and you have a very optimistic tone, Lauren. I love that. Self-Made Boss also is a book ... Even though it is definitely a business book, it is very practical, it is very specific, but it's driven by personality and it is a book that is joyous. There's a lot of fun stories in here. So I want to ask each of you, what was the funniest story in the book where you just couldn't help but smile?

Jackie Reses:
Yeah, I'll start. One of the things we really enjoyed about the book is that it's written through the eyes of small business owners, and each chapter is a business chapter like HR, finance, hiring, operations, and logistics, legal matters. But each chapter is told through the eyes of four or five small businesses in each chapter and also a handful of experts in each chapter.

Jackie Reses:
There's one in particular that I really enjoyed, and the entrepreneurs' names are Keith and Patricia Miller from Pampered Pooch Playground and Bubbly Paws in Minneapolis. You listen to Keith and Patricia, and it was Keith who I spent the most time with, talk about how they build their team at a grooming shop ... Grooming shops, because they now have a few, in Minneapolis. He had incredible insight in how he focuses on fun and teamwork and creating an environment that feels safe for the dogs, safe for dog customers, and also safe for his employees.

Jackie Reses:
And so, I loved his ideas. One really simple one in building trust was he took a video of the dog getting groomed while it was getting groomed. He saw so many advantages in this idea. From a dog owner's point of view, they could see how their dog behaved during grooming, which could be a trying time for some dogs. The dog obviously felt safe because they were going to be streamed to their owner. For his employees, they felt safe so that they could also show their work. If anything went wrong, they could show what happened. It was a great experience. They could show that as well.

Jackie Reses:
And so, it's kind of like one of those things that you would never think of, but it's a really interesting business hack that he created in the context of his grooming store.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that it's using technology to make it more human and more ... I don't know what you call it with the animal, but you know what I mean. It's connecting people. Lauren, do you have a fun story?

Lauren Weinberg:
I would say that Germanee G. is somebody that really stands out to me, because she epitomizes this idea of following your passion and your dreams. So she had this great job, corporate job, at Gap and she left that job to go become a stylist. She now splits her time between Atlanta and LA. I think just hearing about her saving up her money and just getting ready to take that leap of faith is just really cool, because to me it really, I think, just epitomizes that entrepreneurial spirit that we try to capture in the book and just how she really went for it to go pursue her dreams.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also so relatable because so many people do have these dreams. One thing in the book that I liked is that nothing was too small. You get into some very tiny decisions, but they are very important decisions. So can you share what the most overlooked thing, or one of the overlooked things, that many business owners forget to pay attention to that's really important, it moves the needle?

Lauren Weinberg:
I'll talk about two things to start with. I think one is just the entire look and feel of your business. I think thinking about your business from the notion that every touchpoint that somebody has with your store, what does your window look like? What does it look like when you walk through the door? If you have an online business, your website, your logo, your presence, every interaction that somebody has with your brand is a chance for them to make an impression and form a relationship with you. And so, I would just say all of those details really matter.

Lauren Weinberg:
And so, thinking about them from the very beginning of your business is really important. Then along those lines, we talked to Aundre Larrow in our marketing chapter and he is a photographer. He gave all these like very specific tips on how to take great pictures.

Lauren Weinberg:
So if you're in the food business, he talks about using a smaller plate when you're taking pictures of food, what time of day, how to capture the best light. He really goes into a lot of specific details, because I think if you think about social channels and all these places where people are getting information or where they're viewing content from business owners, the better you can put your brand out there with photography and how you portray things, the more likely you are to connect and breakthrough.

Lauren Weinberg:
So I thought the tips that he provided in there were really very specific, very detailed, and extremely actionable. Like don't take pictures outside in the middle of the day when it's sunny, but do take pictures inside when there's indirect sunlight. Just really practical tips that anyone can use on their own.

Jackie Reses:
I thought some of the financial advice was really helpful also, and just tiny decisions you might make at the very beginning of starting a company. For example, don't combine your business account and your personal account in terms of business accounts. A lot of small business owners, when they start to make it easy on themselves, they conflate the two. But there are a lot of downstream effects that could impact their business just by that one simple decision.

Jackie Reses:
And so, now there are lots of places, particularly online, where you can open up an online business account for free, and then get a lot of the technical tools that help support lots of other analytical decisions you can have.

Jackie Reses:
And so, the reason why you don't want to combine the accounts is if you ever want to get credit, it's hard to take apart your business account and your personal account. When you have to deal with taxes, it makes it more complicated. You're going to spend a headache's worth of time dealing with taxes. You might need to position your company to raise money at some point in the future. It just looks sloppy. Then you clearly have to do a separate accounting. Then you might also need trades and have to do trade invoicing and things like that.

Jackie Reses:
And so, you're going to have to start separating because they're going to want to get credit. They're going to want to see your different elements of your business operating independently.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was the number one hack each of you learned from the self-made bosses that you interviewed, ideally something that you guys ... Even though you have a big, strong history in small business which people can read about in the book, what did you learn?

Lauren Weinberg:
I think Jackie talked about Keith Miller and Bubbly Paws. I think that they were really ahead of their time when it came to just thinking about culture and employee benefits for small business owners. I think a lot of business owners are contending with this fact now, like how do we retain employees?

Lauren Weinberg:
Keith was bringing cupcakes for employees on their birthdays. He was doing engagement surveys. He was offering employees mats to stand on so that their feet were more comfortable throughout the day. I think in a lot of ways, those are really simple things, but not always things that small businesses have front and center when they're thinking about their employee experience.

Lauren Weinberg:
So that was definitely one that I thought, wow, he had the hiring and culture part of the business down in a way that I think a lot of businesses are really trying to get their head around in the moment.

Jackie Reses:
Yeah. Pete Stein, the oyster farmer that you had talked about, he hacked software. So he wanted to optimize his operations and he used bus software in order to build his own optimized routes. And so, it doesn't have to be something super complicated. You can go out and try to find a proxy for what you're trying to do.

Jackie Reses:
My comment before was go find a free online business savings and checking account. In this case, he optimized his utilization. And so, if you're really creative about some of these systems, you can do it in a cheaper way if you need to and have it done more quickly. I think that kind of creativity is great.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Last question. We talk a lot on this podcast about generational wealth. What is your advice to families who want to pass a small business to the next generation? Because it is complicated.

Lauren Weinberg:
It is complicated. I think a couple of things. One is to make sure that you have family members that want to take on your business. We heard a lot from business owners that just didn't have anybody to pass their business on to. So I think that's something that getting your family members involved in, making sure that the interest is there.

Lauren Weinberg:
Then when it does come time to transition, I would say give up some control. I think one of the things we learned from a lot of the people that we interviewed in the book that come from multi-generational businesses is that when the next generation could come in and they were given more free reign to think about how they would change the business operation, that that really helps the business evolve.

Lauren Weinberg:
So one example is with Acme Smoked Fish. That was the company that I talked about with my roommate from college. It's fourth generation. Her brother came in and said, "We really need to upgrade how we think about manufacturing. We have a smoked fish company." At the time, it felt like a huge risk to them, and it ended up becoming the thing that really helped propel their business into the next phase of growth.

Lauren Weinberg:
I think the same thing is true with Pesso's Ice Cream, where they were really starting to think about using data. They used to have 132 flavors and they realized they don't need 132 flavors, that they could have 30 flavors and that those 30 flavors are the most popular, that really cuts down on the amount of time that they spend then producing ice cream flavors that are less popular.

Lauren Weinberg:
So I would say make sure that you, a, have the people there that have the interest. Then give them the room to do things in a little bit of a different way, which does require giving up some control, which is hard to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jackie, by the way, oh, your parents had a small business that you did not take over.

Jackie Reses:
Oh me? Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh yeah.

Jackie Reses:
No, I definitely was not taking over my family's small business. I think I'm the only person in my family to not work for myself. I did come from a small business family, and I appreciated some of the upsides and downsides of working with people that you can't fire and they are part of your family.

Jackie Reses:
And so, the message that I would add to this ... And I think about Jonathan Sciabica from Sciabica Family California Olive Oil and Gourmet Foods. Literally his grandfather and great-grandfather began the business with information they had pulled coming from Italy. The insight from him was to think about rules for how you're going to work together. Think about who decides what and how do you operate.

Jackie Reses:
I think that was really good advice he gave us so that you could try to minimize the ambiguity in how you make decisions and how you operate together. And so, people had their roles. Sometimes in family business, that can be incredibly challenging because you have, I'll call it, sloppy decisions. But where you don't make sloppy decisions and you're very specific about who does what, who decides, it can help alleviate some of that family tension.

Bobbi Rebell:
Excellent advice. Thank you both for joining us. Where can people learn more about you guys and Self-Made Boss?

Jackie Reses:
Well, they absolutely should go to our website, selfmadeboss.com. They can go onto Amazon or any independent book seller, if they prefer that, and look up Self-Made Boss. Hopefully they will enjoy the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you both.

Lauren Weinberg:
Thank you.

Jackie Reses:
Thank you so much for having us.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many great stories we couldn't get to. So even if you are not a small business owner, read this book, just for the entertainment value and the amazing stories these self-made bosses share with Jackie and Lauren.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what resonated with you in the interview? DM me on Instagram, @bobbirebell1, or on Twitter, @bobbirebell. Please share this podcast on social media, or just tell a friend, so we can grow the Financial Grownup community.

Bobbi Rebell:
I also want to thank those you who have reviewed my new book Launching Financial Grownups wherever, maybe Amazon, maybe Goodreads, and have shared it on social media. Please let me know when you do through all the social channels, and I would love to thank some of you. I'll surprise you with some Grownup Gear merch, which, by the way, you can check out at grownupgear.com to celebrate all of the adulting moments in your life.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, if you are looking for someone to speak to your company or your school or your parent group, please get in touch. Just go to my website, super easy, bobbirebell.com, and click on the Work with Me tab, or you can also get a Grownup Gear discount by signing up for the newsletter.

Bobbi Rebell:
Big thanks to Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg, authors of Self-Made Boss. Pick up a copy. Thanks to both of them for helping us be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Who needs a start-up when you can buy your way into a business? My Fab Finance founder Tonya Rapley shares why and how she decided to buy an online business and her tips on what she would and would not do differently.

Money Tips On Buying An Online Business

• Learn the types of questions you should ask before buying a business.

• Learn how Tonya increased the average order value and how you can do the same.

• Learn what kind of things you can do in the beginning to prepare for the growth that comes later.

• Why it’s so important to have a marketing strategy for your business.

Follow Tonya!

• Instagram - @tonya.rapley

• Facebook - @OfficialTonyaRapley

• Twitter - @tonya.rapley

• Pinterest - @ItsTonyaRapley

• LinkedIn - @tonyarapley

• Website - tonyarapley.com

Follow Club Loofah!

• Instagram - @clubloofah

• Facebook - @clubloofah

• Pinterest- @OfficialClubLoofah

• Website - https://loofah.club

Follow My Fab Finance!

• Instagram - @myfabfinance

• Facebook - @MyFabFinance

• Twitter - @MyFabFinance

• Website - myfabfinance.com

Other Important Links

• My Fab Finance Bootcamp

• The Blue Ribbon Club

• The Fab Fam Community
  
  
  

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Tonya Rapley:
They were taking a significant loss. They were selling these loofahs for 4.99 and doing free shipping. Ridiculous.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hi, friends. Okay, we all know starting a business is not easy, but the truth is you don't have to start a business to be a business owner. There's a whole lot of options out there if you want to buy your way in. But there's a lot you need to know before you get started, and we're going to share some of the secrets that you need to know.

Bobbi Rebell:
My guest today is Tonya Rapley. You may know her as the co-host of one of the shows we featured in our summer watch party, Going From Broke. We were a little obsessed with it. Anyway, it's executive produced by Ashton Kutcher. Check it out on the Crackle channel. Tonya is also the founder of My Fab Finance and the author of The Money Manual. She is a big deal, guys. She's been featured everywhere from Vogue, Good Morning America, and The Today Show. But what you probably don't know is that she's also a holistic wellness business owner. In 2019 Tonya purchased Club Loofah, an inclusive self-care brand focused on inspiring and supporting regenerative practices for all. She mentioned this to me in passing recently, so I roped her into a podcast interview to tell us more about buying a business and basically how it all works. It's really interesting, guys. Here is Tonya Rapley.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tonya Rapley, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you. I'm excited.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so excited to have you. Long time overdue. I loved having you in my book and now here. You are the founder of My Fab Finance, which has an incredible community as well. You're host of Going From Broke, which was one of my favorite shows that I caught up on this summer. We highlighted it in our summer watch series. You have the 30-day shift program. And what we're going to talk about is your new online business, Club Loofah. Welcome, welcome.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you so much. It sounds like I do so many things, and I do.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many things, and wife and mother and all the things. Before we get into your online business, tell us a little bit about My Fab Finance.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, I mean, My Fab Finance, I started in 2013. It was essentially my accountability partner, as I decided that I was tired of being inconvenienced by being financially insecure. My goal at the time was to improve my credit score so that I could get my own apartment in New York City and hopefully get free clothes from Macy's. I just wanted free clothes. I was like, "Maybe they'll see what I'm doing and send me free clothes."

Bobbi Rebell:
Free clothes, always a noble cause.

Tonya Rapley:
You know, you know. And here we are, I guess. Well, I've been a full-time entrepreneur. I was able to transition into doing My Fab Finance full-time in 2015. We've created so many different elements of My Fab Finance and different iterations, but today our goal is to create a safe space for women to talk about money, as well as we have a mission of helping 1000 people achieve at least one financial goal that they're proud of.

Bobbi Rebell:
When we were doing our interview for my book, which is going to come out in the spring, which, guys, I'll talk about another time, you kind of mentioned, "Oh, by the way, yeah, I bought an online business." And so I wanted to bring you on the podcast, because you mentioned this oh so casually, like, "I'm doing 100 things, and by the way, I bought an online business," and then you move on to something else. I need to know about this. So a lot of people, they're home during this extended version, unfortunately, this extended pandemic that's so much longer than we thought we would be home. Of course it's good to start an online business, but not everyone has to start from scratch. Sometimes if you have the resources you could actually buy something and give yourself a jumpstart. And it sounds like that's what you did. So tell us about this decision to buy an online business and what you did. What is it?

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. So as a financial educator, I realized that a lot of my income was service-based. It was based on my ability to show up to coach my audience and everything else, and I wanted something that was easier to scale. That's how I thought about it before I bought the business, easier to scale. I knew I did not want to come up with a new concept, create a new brand and everything else. And so my sister, who had just closed her Shopify store, asked me... She said, "I know you're interested in potentially purchasing another business. Have you checked out the Shopify exchange?" And I hadn't heard of it, but I went to check it out immediately. And she then sent me this company, Club Loofah. And she just typed, "I think that you could really do something with this. It's a great concept."

Tonya Rapley:
And so I started to look into it more, and I thought to myself, "Wow, this is a really good concept." It is essentially a bath subscription business, a bath tool subscription business, because most people don't realize that you're supposed to replace your loofah every three to four weeks. Your loofah, your sponge, whatever it is you use in a bathroom, before it starts smelling, before it starts crumbling, you're to replace it. So we reached out to the owner, and he was about to actually close the doors, because he hadn't had any bites or anyone that had... He had a few conversations, but no one that was really serious. [inaudible 00:06:09], "Hey, the money's in escrow. Let's do this." So we ended up buying the business from him. He was actually based in Riverside, California at that time. We were living in Los Angeles, so we drove up to Riverside with a U-Haul, got all the inventory that he had on him-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, right, so you actually have to take inventory, because I have-

Tonya Rapley:
It is not drop shipping. Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
I do drop shipping for my grownup gear.

Tonya Rapley:
It is not drop shipping. We do not have a fulfillment center just right now. And so that's the thing. We got the items from them. We just started learning the e-commerce business when it came to loofahs. When we purchased the company, one of the things that was attractive to me was that it already had subscribers. It was a subscription business. So the day that we purchased the company, they had new orders, because it billed monthly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, why was he selling it? Presumably... I would always be suspicious. If someone's selling a business, you kind of go, "Well, why?" Because maybe if it's a good business, why would he sell it? So I would be wondering, what are the red flags?

Tonya Rapley:
So the reason he was selling it actually was because he inherited the business from the previous owner. So there was a previous owner who started the business for her daughters because she wanted to teach her daughters entrepreneurship. Then her daughters lost interest in it, and she didn't have the capacity to manage it, but he was already onboard as the marketing officer, the chief marketing officer, so he bought it. He believed in the business, thought it was a good company. He took it over. But then his father passed away, and he decided that he didn't want to do things just because anymore. He wanted to live a more purpose-focused life.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I have not seen this site before you, but it has a really nice editorial focus, and that's something that that is one of your strengths. Tell us more about the changes that you then brought in.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. Thank you very much, because when I bought the company, it was very fun and kitschy, and one of the things we realized was, if we're going to compete with the Targets... And we're not going to compete with Target and Amazon. We cannot drive our prices low enough to compete with them, so we have to appeal to a different demographic, someone who value self-care, who is willing to invest in their self-care and what's a higher end feeling product. And so we rebranded to go for a higher end. And so now the products that we're rolling out are more luxury-focused, or they're items that you can't find in your drug store. That was very intentional. And we wanted to clean it up a little bit. The company was based in California, so it was very beachy, Hollister... Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
When you look back, what would you have done differently? Are there questions you would have asked that you would advise people that are looking to buy an online business that's already somewhat established... What should they go in knowing that you wish you knew?

Tonya Rapley:
Absolutely. So when I bought the company, [inaudible 00:08:55], "Okay, it's bringing in revenue. You have XYZ subscribers. Cool. All right. Yeah, let's do this." Now I would definitely ask about their average order value, because the average order value determines if you can run ads. From my perspective, I was thinking, "All right, we're going to buy this company, and we're going to run ads, and we're just going to blow this out the water." But in order for ads to make sense, your average order value needs to be above what your minimum ad spend is going to be, or what it costs to acquire a customer.

Tonya Rapley:
They were taking a significant loss. They were selling these loofahs for 4.99 and doing free shipping. Ridiculous. So one of the things we did when I came in was changed the shipping model. We now charge 2.99 for shipping. And then we also increased the price point on some of the items. We allow the loofah, the classic loofah, to be the loss leader, but we increased the price points on some of the other items and introduced higher-priced items to the store as well, so that average order value and just the opportunity to bundle products... There wasn't really a strong opportunity to bundle products. So now we're in the final stages of developing a body care line so that you can bundle your body care with your loofah, since it's it's all body care anyway. So that's one of the questions I definitely, definitely would have asked, is average order value.

Tonya Rapley:
The retention rate was pretty good. Their retention rate... And that's a question, especially if you're buying a subscription business. How long does your average customer stay around? And do you have any existing customer service infrastructure in place? Because he was handling customer service inquiries. I found very early that I hated that aspect of the business, and we ended up hiring someone, but it would have been nice if there was somebody that came along with the company. So any personnel that would come that know the business outside of us going and doing training with you is another question that I probably would have asked. Those are the two big things we had to change, was... The average order value was a killer early on, because the company was basically losing money.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you really didn't know that when you bought it.

Tonya Rapley:
No, I didn't, and I should have asked for stronger financials, but I think that [inaudible 00:10:55] I was like, "It's a subscription business. How bad could it be? It's not to the point where they're searching for customers every month. I bought the customers with the business. How bad could it be?" Yeah, I didn't do the math on that one, Bobbi. I didn't think like, "Okay, this is a 4.99 loofah, and they're charging nothing. Free shipping. How much is shipping?" But we addressed that, and within the first year we increase the average order value I think by like 32%.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you do that?

Tonya Rapley:
We introduced a candle line, so most people were buying candles. And our candles are not... They're high-quality soy candles. Our candles were about 20... I think $28 for a candle. And so that definitely drives up, if you're buying a 4.99 loofah and a $28 candle. We introduced two higher end products, the ayate washcloth, and we actually just dropped our Japanese smoothing brush. So those aren't terribly expensive, but they're 10.99 and 11.99. And then we started adding bundle options. So when people checked out, we offer the upsell of a shower hook for people who don't have any hooks in their shower, so we offer that upsell. And then we also invited people to buy our family bundle, which was essentially four loofahs instead of one, just in case it's a family of four, and quite a few people decided to do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, you mentioned you wanted something that you could scale. Are you still bundling at home? Who is packaging this stuff up? You said you had no fulfillment center.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, so we still have a fulfillment manager. We do have a storage facility where we keep the things, and we have a facility manager, our fulfillment manager. So we are very hands-on still in that process. I don't pack the loofahs anymore, my husband doesn't, but our fulfillment manager does. And she's great. She's awesome. And that's something we had to look at when we were considering if it makes sense for us to place our products in a fulfillment center, which [inaudible 00:12:42] take about $2.80 to $3 per product, and our average order value just could not sustain that yet.

Tonya Rapley:
So maybe when we roll out the body care line... Our body care line is sulfate-free, microbiome friendly, and we've been really intentional about the body cream that we're creating. And we have a non-abrasive exfoliant that we're also rolling out a non-abrasive skin exfoliant, so it's papaya extract and natural fruit extract to help with skin turnover and cell turnover. So I think that once we roll those out, we might be in the zone of being able to send it to a fulfillment center, but maybe not. We have to see how our fulfillment manager feels, because we'll keep those profit margins... We'll grow them as long as we can, and we'll minimize the money that we're spending as much as we can.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I am impressed, as someone that started a small online business during the pandemic. The amount of detail that you're going into is incredible. You know all of your numbers. What is your best advice, before we wrap up, for people that are considering buying an online business? You went basically to the Shopify exchange, and you can look for whoever's selling a Shopify site. Is that what you advise? And what else?

Tonya Rapley:
It's work. It's work. And decide what works for you, drop shipping, or whether you're going to do the order fulfillment yourself. But you also have to ask yourself, "Do I have the endurance to grow this?" Because I think a lot of times we hear about these overnight successes when it comes to shop owners. They get placed in Oprah's most favorite things list and everything else. But what happens if it doesn't? What is your marketing strategy? My main advice would be, have a sound marketing strategy for how you're going to acquire customers and keep your customers, because if you don't have customers, you don't have a business.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true and such good advice. Okay. We know everyone needs to go to Club Loofah for sure. Where else can people find you and find out more about you and My Fab Finance and the community there? And also you have a 30 day shift program.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. Yeah, because I don't have enough things going on, right, Bobbi?

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:14:44]. You need more.

Tonya Rapley:
So I decided to launch a personal coaching company, because a lot of women who didn't fall into the scope of work we do at My Fab Finance but wanted to know more about, "How do I confidently take on my next life phase?" And so I created a program, 30 day shift, for women who are looking to powerfully move into the direction of their next life shift. So that's at my personal platform. It's Tonya, T-O-N-Y-A, .rapley, or tonyarapley.com. If you go to that website, it actually has all of my companies. So it has a link to My Fab Finance. It has the link to Club Loofah. But if you're interested in Club Loofah, that website is actually loofah.club, so L-O-O-F-A-H.club.

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't know that. That's another question though. You got to get the URL there. That's another thing you got to be asking. Wow.

Tonya Rapley:
Clubloofah.com is not available. And one of the things I wanted to do was make sure that we were in it for the long haul before I invested in buying the domain from someone else. Actually, after this interview, we're finally finalizing our trademark application, because the business was not trademarked, or they abandoned their previous trademark, so we're trademarking. So now that we've been in it for almost two years now, I'm in a phase like, "Okay, let's do all the things that we need to do and probably should have done." So I'm going to... Hopefully in the next year clubloofah.com will be ours. I'm like, "Who had a Club Loofah other than us?" I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they're just squatting on the name.

Tonya Rapley:
They're squatting, waiting for someone like me to come buy it from them. Because that's a big business too. Think about it. Buying and selling domains is actually a big business.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is a big business. And when I named Grownup Gear Grownup Gear, I looked very carefully at what was available before I named a company. So that's also something to really look at, whether you start a company or buy a company. Look at the domain names that the company owns, because that's really important.

Tonya Rapley:
That is. That is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tonya, thank you so much. Oh, you didn't say your socials.

Tonya Rapley:
Oh. So My Fab Finance, that's M-Y-F-A-Bfinance.com. And then Tonya Rapley, so that's T-O-N-Y-A.rapley. And then Club Loofah is Club Loofah, C-L-U-B L-O-O-F-A-H.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. So you have that on social media.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank goodness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank goodness.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, we have that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Good. Thanks so much.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, there was a lot there, so much good stuff. I want to remind everyone full transcripts are available. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com. Go to the podcast section. You'll get the show notes and the transcripts.

Bobbi Rebell:
My take here is that whether you're going to start a business or you're going to buy a business, you need to know that it's going to be a lot of work, probably more than you expect, probably lots of surprises, and probably going to cost you a lot more than that purchase price. Yes, Tonya had customers. They were subscription-based. That's all good. But it wasn't a profitable business, and then she had to deal with that. You need a lot of, frankly, capital runway to manage a business when you're dealing with it initially and you don't really know what's coming at you. So make sure you ask all the questions you need to ask and that you're happy with the answers. The good news with buying a business is you do kind of get a headstart. She already had customers. That's great. You start in the middle. You have a concept there. But you also have challenges that were created by someone else, and you may not be aware of all of them, and they come at you a lot faster because you're already sort of in the middle. Make sure you're ready.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow or subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, reviews are so appreciated. I read every one, and they mean the world to me. Let me know what topics you want me to cover. DM me. And please follow me also on Instagram at bobbirebell1. And go to my website if you want to get on my newsletter list. Just as I said, bobbirebell.com. Pretty simple, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please, support Tonya. She is amazing. Check out Club Loofah. Follow it on all the socials. And, of course, My Fab Finance and Tonya Rapley as well. Say thanks to Tonya for sharing her journey and for helping us all be financial grownups

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of 100s of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking out fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Competition is fierce for home buyers. Greg McBride tells us everything financial grownups need to know to get the best deal on their new home and other real estate buying insider secrets.

Greg’s Best Tips For Aspiring Homeowners

Yeah, this is a market where I start to get concerned that there's the tendency to get swept up in the fervor, and then people stretch and stretch too far. I mean, people typically stretch when we buy a home anyway, but I think in an overheated market like this, you've got to be really wary because the competition is so heated. People might have a tendency to stretch a little too far. And so, don't buy a home based on your best case scenario, or assuming that your best income year is what is going to be status quo going forward. I mean, as we learned over the last 12 months, the economy goes through ebbs and flows, how a lot of households saw their incomes drop off very suddenly.

Greg McBride:
You need to plan for those types of contingencies and lead yourself plenty of financial breathing room. And look, the bottom line is for a lot of people, that might mean rethinking home ownership, not for good, but at least just for right now, given the overheated market and the tendency to stretch beyond what you can afford. The novelty of that new home is going to wear off in a few years, the mortgage payments will not, that's the thing to keep in mind.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. But also we tend to look at what the bank will approve us for. The base will say, "Here's how much we will give you a mortgage for," this is what you qualify for when they do pre-approvals, which is something that is a tip for everybody, make sure you do get pre-approved for mortgages. How do people gauge realistically what that number means in terms of figuring out, as you say, what's the stretch and what's the more conservative number?

Greg’s Tips For Gauging A More Realistic Number Than What We Are Pre-Approved For

Greg McBride:
Well, couple things. First that pre-approval amount, this is not the Wild Wild West, anything goes, days of 2005, 2006, 2007, where people were being approved for far more than they can afford to repay. Lending standards are much more sane now, if anything, lenders are eerie on the side of being conservative. The amount that people are getting approved for isn't sky high, relative to what they can actually afford.

Greg’s Tips For Managing Interest Rates

Greg McBride:
The best rates out there are available for consumers and have credit scores of 740 and above. So, if you're in that neighborhood, you're going to score those great rates that are out there. But even if your credit scores, 700, 710, 720, you're still going to get a really good rate. It's if your credit score gets below 680, that's where lenders get a little bit more conservative. There's not as many lenders at the table and the offers aren't as good. And, I think that's where you really got to worry about biting off more than you can chew, in terms of the actual cost of the financing. Rates are still well below 3% and those are on 30-year fixed rate. Mortgage rates aren't going to price people out. It's the pricing, it's the lack of inventory of homes available for sale, those are going to be the real obstacles, not mortgage rates, at least for well qualified borrowers.

Greg’s Tips For Mitigating Surprises

Greg McBride:
There are a lot of other costs that go beyond just that monthly principal and interest on the mortgage payment. You're going to have property taxes. You're going to have property insurance. And the property insurance, that's one that tends to sneak up on people. I mean the average premium annually is over 1300 bucks. Now that varies widely based on geography, property type, but just as a sort of a rough place holder, that's more than a hundred bucks a month that you need to factor in whenever you're shopping, so that you don't stretch too far. And too often as home buyers, you're well into the process, you've already signed the contract by the time you start shopping around for homeowners insurance, and that's where the potential for surprises can come into play.

Bobbi Rebell:
What other surprises are out there?

Greg McBride:
Well, there's the maintenance, the upkeep. I mean, when you own it, if it breaks, you got to fix it. There's no picking up the phone and calling the landlord to fix it. And so, it's those ongoing costs that really need to be factored in. I mean, we have found that Millennial home buyers, for example, almost two thirds of millennial home buyers have some regrets about their home purchase, and the top one was maintenance and the cost of home ownership. So, buying a house that is 20 years old means that you're kind of getting to that end of life cycle on a lot of the initial appliances, things like, you might be looking at a new roof within the next five to 10 years, depending on the type of construction market you live in, wear and tear, those kinds of things.

Greg McBride:
But these are the type of costs that you need to be mindful of going in and being able to budget for. Setting aside 2% of your home value every year as a budget for the inevitable maintenance and upkeep, factor that in from the beginning. And with prices going up, that's going to squeeze people's budgets even more, but that's also means that people buying older properties means they're going to face higher, and higher maintenance and upkeep costs as time goes on.

Greg’s Tips For Avoiding Red Flags

Greg McBride:
Do not skip the home inspection. Do not. People are doing that because the market's so hot and they're in competition to get this house. They've been outbid on other ones. And so, people tend to take shortcuts. And one of the shortcuts is people are... They're waving the inspection, that can really come back to bite you financially in a huge way. Do not skip the home inspection, because that home inspection, that's really what's going to tip you off. Not just the things that might need repair now before the sale takes place, but things that might be on the near term horizon, things you're going to have to factor in terms of, is this the right price for this house, given that I have these other upcoming costs?

Greg McBride:
And we talked about the appliances, that's sort of the 15, 20 year mark on a lot of appliances are 20 to 30 years on a roof, for example, some things are even shorter than that. If you're in Sun Belt states where you're running your air conditioner a lot, lifecycle of air conditioners could be five to seven years. So again, other costs that you need to factor in, be aware of and be setting money aside regularly, so that you are not in a pinch at the time when something breaks.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important to remember. I do want to circle back. We talked about the fact that people are moving out of generally places where they absolutely had to live previous to the pandemic for work into areas that may be more rural, maybe have more space, maybe have amenities that they couldn't have where they were living. If you are interested in buying in one of the places that is maybe less popular now, what advice do you have for buyers? I mean, is there a buyers market there at least for people, is this an opportunity for them?

Greg McBride:
Well, I wouldn't term it a buyer's market because there, you still suffer from this limited inventory of homes that are available for sale. Builders aren't able to build fast enough. The prices of new homes, newly constructed homes have also been bid up, but a lot of people, that's where they're looking. And, people are moving into newer areas, different zip codes. We talked about the homeowners insurance earlier, that could bring on some additional costs on the homeowners insurance. It may be a quote, "Local move, but changing zip codes could be enough to trigger a different pricing structure on the homeowners insurance."

Greg McBride:
It could be in a flood zone that necessitates having a separate flood insurance policy, for example. Really important to factor all those issues in, things that can impact, not just your property insurance, also the property taxes. Some states, the current owner, their increases in property taxes may have been protected by an amendment to kind of prevents them from being priced out of their home. So, what they're paying may have no bearing on what you were paying. And a lot of people, again, they don't find that out until after the fact, check with the local tax recording office to get a sense of what the property tax is going to be on that particular property before you sign them at that point.

Greg’s Tips For Finding The Best Resources

Bobbi Rebell:
What are the best resources for people? I know that Bankrate has tons of information for people. You just mentioned the local government, I guess. How do you do that? Is there a website? Do you know? Can you give us some guidance and other resources as well?

Greg McBride:
Again, it depend upon your locality, but look at your local city, state or county, tax recording office, that's where you're likely to find information on property tax rates, what the assessed value of homes are in a particular area. If there are any sort of homestead exemptions for new home buyers and what the process is for that. On homeowners insurance, comparison shop. Not every insurer charges the same price. And like I said, premiums have been going up, so puts even more urgency on that comparison shopping. Look at bundling your policies, your auto policy, your liability policy, putting that in with your homeowners insurance policy could be a way to reduce the total cost of all three of those. Look for potential discounts, do you have a security system? Even something like distance from a fire station or a fire hydrant can affect the premiums that you pay.

Greg McBride:
And then, shop around for your mortgage. This is another one where just a slight difference in rate could save you thousands of dollars. Shopping around can also save you thousands of dollars in fees. Not everybody charges the same price. That was one of the top regrets among new homeowners as well, is that the financing costs surprised them to the upside. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have done surveys in the past that show homeowners that shop around, that get additional quotes on their mortgage save thousands of dollars relative to those that did not. So, all of that critically important, doing that earlier in the process rather than later.

Follow Greg!

• Twitter - @BankrateGreg

• Website - www.bankrate.com/authors/greg-mcbride/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And, you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code grownup for 15% off your first order, buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And, you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Greg McBride:
The novelty of that new home is going to wear off in a few years, the mortgage payments will not.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being thrown up is hard, but together we got this. Hello my grownup friends. We all know as we go through life, all those adulting milestones, things change. So, that was magnified recently during the pandemic, when it came to what so many of us wanted and needed in our homes. Subtly, it wasn't just where we lived, it was where we worked, it was where we socialized, it was our everything. That meant rethinking where we lived, how we lived. And for a lot of people, that meant moving to a home that fit new needs. So, I decided to call in one of my favorite financial grownup experts to give us the best tips for what we need to know, not just when we are looking to buy a home, but when we are deciding even if we should be, because maybe buying a home is not for us, even maybe not for us right now, maybe later, we'll see.

Bobbi Rebell:
But how do you know? Bankrate's Chief Financial Analyst, Greg McBride was one of my favorite people to interview when I was an anchor at Reuters. And, I was so glad I was able to get him on this podcast to walk us through what we need to know. Here is Greg McBride. Greg McBride, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Greg McBride:
Great to be with you, Bobbi. Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I asked you on as the chief financial analyst over at Bankrate, because I want you to share with us a lot of money tips that you have for our grownup audience on home buying, home ownership and so on. But as we get out of the pandemic, before we get to those tips, I'd love for you to give us a state of the housing market overview. How do things look right now, aspiring homeowners and for buyers and sellers in general?

Greg McBride:
The housing market is red hot. We haven't seen housing market this hot since the housing boom prior to the financial crisis. It is very much a sellers market. We are back to the days of bidding wars, people even doing things like buying homes, sight unseen. And, the reason is there's just a massive imbalance between demand and supply. Demand is really, really high. People have the flexibility to work from home. And so, geography matters a lot less. They don't necessarily need to live downtown in a metro area, they can move to the suburbs, they can move to another part of the country. People that have been working from home realize, "You know what?" "We probably need a different set up here if we're going to do this."

Greg McBride:
And so, that's driven a lot of demand for people moving, people moving up, or first time home buyers getting in the market. At the same time, the supply of homes available for sale, which was already a low coming into the pandemic has only gotten lower. It's now at a record low, so you see that massive imbalance between supply and demand, and that is driving a lot of what we're seeing prices have been going up at at a breakneck pace. So great time for sellers, but not so much for buyers.

Bobbi Rebell:
So the obvious question then, what are your best tips for aspiring home buyers?

Greg McBride:
Yeah, this is a market where I start to get concerned that there's the tendency to get swept up in the fervor, and then people stretch and stretch too far. I mean, people typically stretch when we buy a home anyway, but I think in an overheated market like this, you've got to be really wary because the competition is so heated. People might have a tendency to stretch a little too far. And so, don't buy a home based on your best case scenario, or assuming that your best income year is what is going to be status quo going forward. I mean, as we learned over the last 12 months, the economy goes through ebbs and flows, how a lot of households saw their incomes drop off very suddenly.

Greg McBride:
You need to plan for those types of contingencies and lead yourself plenty of financial breathing room. And look, the bottom line is for a lot of people, that might mean rethinking home ownership, not for good, but at least just for right now, given the overheated market and the tendency to stretch beyond what you can afford. The novelty of that new home is going to wear off in a few years, the mortgage payments will not, that's the thing to keep in mind.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. But also we tend to look at what the bank will approve us for. The base will say, "Here's how much we will give you a mortgage for," this is what you qualify for when they do pre-approvals, which is something that is a tip for everybody, make sure you do get pre-approved for mortgages. How do people gauge realistically what that number means in terms of figuring out, as you say, what's the stretch and what's the more conservative number?

Greg McBride:
Well, couple things. First that pre-approval amount, this is not the Wild Wild West, anything goes, days of 2005, 2006, 2007, where people were being approved for far more than they can afford to repay. Lending standards are much more sane now, if anything, lenders are eerie on the side of being conservative. The amount that people are getting approved for isn't sky high, relative to what they can actually afford.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are there tips for how to manage interest rates and lock-in rates in a sustainable way, and a deal that you're really going to actually get? Because sometimes, I know in the past I would just skim what the rates were, these teaser rates on the ads, and that's not always the rate that you're going to get.

Greg McBride:
The best rates out there are available for consumers and have credit scores of 740 and above. So, if you're in that neighborhood, you're going to score those great rates that are out there. But even if your credit scores, 700, 710, 720, you're still going to get a really good rate. It's if your credit score gets below 680, that's where lenders get a little bit more conservative. There's not as many lenders at the table and the offers aren't as good. And, I think that's where you really got to worry about biting off more than you can chew, in terms of the actual cost of the financing. Rates are still well below 3% and those are on 30-year fixed rate. Mortgage rates aren't going to price people out. It's the pricing, it's the lack of inventory of homes available for sale, those are going to be the real obstacles, not mortgage rates, at least for well qualified borrowers.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also brought some tips to mitigate surprises. What kind of surprises do new homeowners and aspiring homeowners need to be prepared for?

Greg McBride:
There are a lot of other costs that go beyond just that monthly principal and interest on the mortgage payment. You're going to have property taxes. You're going to have property insurance. And the property insurance, that's one that tends to sneak up on people. I mean the average premium annually is over 1300 bucks. Now that varies widely based on geography, property type, but just as a sort of a rough place holder, that's more than a hundred bucks a month that you need to factor in whenever you're shopping, so that you don't stretch too far. And too often as home buyers, you're well into the process, you've already signed the contract by the time you start shopping around for homeowners insurance, and that's where the potential for surprises can come into play.

Bobbi Rebell:
What other surprises are out there?

Greg McBride:
Well, there's the maintenance, the upkeep. I mean, when you own it, if it breaks, you got to fix it. There's no picking up the phone and calling the landlord to fix it. And so, it's those ongoing costs that really need to be factored in. I mean, we have found that Millennial home buyers, for example, almost two thirds of millennial home buyers have some regrets about their home purchase, and the top one was maintenance and the cost of home ownership. So, buying a house that is 20 years old means that you're kind of getting to that end of life cycle on a lot of the initial appliances, things like, you might be looking at a new roof within the next five to 10 years, depending on the type of construction market you live in, wear and tear, those kinds of things.

Greg McBride:
But these are the type of costs that you need to be mindful of going in and being able to budget for. Setting aside 2% of your home value every year as a budget for the inevitable maintenance and upkeep, factor that in from the beginning. And with prices going up, that's going to squeeze people's budgets even more, but that's also means that people buying older properties means they're going to face higher, and higher maintenance and upkeep costs as time goes on.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's interesting, so there's a tip there about 20 years, is the life cycle of a house in terms of maintenance of things. So, you need to go in and look for example at say the appliances and stuff, I mean, how do you manage that stuff? What are some things to look at when you're examining a home that are sort of red flags in terms of maintenance that's going need to be done sooner rather than later?

Greg McBride:
Do not skip the home inspection. Do not. People are doing that because the market's so hot and they're in competition to get this house. They've been outbid on other ones. And so, people tend to take shortcuts. And one of the shortcuts is people are... They're waving the inspection, that can really come back to bite you financially in a huge way. Do not skip the home inspection, because that home inspection, that's really what's going to tip you off. Not just the things that might need repair now before the sale takes place, but things that might be on the near term horizon, things you're going to have to factor in terms of, is this the right price for this house, given that I have these other upcoming costs?

Greg McBride:
And we talked about the appliances, that's sort of the 15, 20 year mark on a lot of appliances are 20 to 30 years on a roof, for example, some things are even shorter than that. If you're in Sun Belt states where you're running your air conditioner a lot, lifecycle of air conditioners could be five to seven years. So again, other costs that you need to factor in, be aware of and be setting money aside regularly, so that you are not in a pinch at the time when something breaks.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important to remember. I do want to circle back. We talked about the fact that people are moving out of generally places where they absolutely had to live previous to the pandemic for work into areas that may be more rural, maybe have more space, maybe have amenities that they couldn't have where they were living. If you are interested in buying in one of the places that is maybe less popular now, what advice do you have for buyers? I mean, is there a buyers market there at least for people, is this an opportunity for them?

Greg McBride:
Well, I wouldn't term it a buyer's market because there, you still suffer from this limited inventory of homes that are available for sale. Builders aren't able to build fast enough. The prices of new homes, newly constructed homes have also been bid up, but a lot of people, that's where they're looking. And, people are moving into newer areas, different zip codes. We talked about the homeowners insurance earlier, that could bring on some additional costs on the homeowners insurance. It may be a quote, "Local move, but changing zip codes could be enough to trigger a different pricing structure on the homeowners insurance."

Greg McBride:
It could be in a flood zone that necessitates having a separate flood insurance policy, for example. Really important to factor all those issues in, things that can impact, not just your property insurance, also the property taxes. Some states, the current owner, their increases in property taxes may have been protected by an amendment to kind of prevents them from being priced out of their home. So, what they're paying may have no bearing on what you were paying. And a lot of people, again, they don't find that out until after the fact, check with the local tax recording office to get a sense of what the property tax is going to be on that particular property before you sign them at that point.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that was going to be my next question, which was what are the best resources for people? I know that Bankrate has tons of information for people. You just mentioned the local government, I guess. How do you do that? Is there a website? Do you know? Can you give us some guidance and other resources as well?

Greg McBride:
Again, it depend upon your locality, but look at your local city, state or county, tax recording office, that's where you're likely to find information on property tax rates, what the assessed value of homes are in a particular area. If there are any sort of homestead exemptions for new home buyers and what the process is for that. On homeowners insurance, comparison shop. Not every insurer charges the same price. And like I said, premiums have been going up, so puts even more urgency on that comparison shopping. Look at bundling your policies, your auto policy, your liability policy, putting that in with your homeowners insurance policy could be a way to reduce the total cost of all three of those. Look for potential discounts, do you have a security system? Even something like distance from a fire station or a fire hydrant can affect the premiums that you pay.

Greg McBride:
And then, shop around for your mortgage. This is another one where just a slight difference in rate could save you thousands of dollars. Shopping around can also save you thousands of dollars in fees. Not everybody charges the same price. That was one of the top regrets among new homeowners as well, is that the financing costs surprised them to the upside. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have done surveys in the past that show homeowners that shop around, that get additional quotes on their mortgage save thousands of dollars relative to those that did not. So, all of that critically important, doing that earlier in the process rather than later.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much, Greg. I have owned multiple homes in my life and I just learned so much information from you. This has been amazing. Where can people keep up with you?

Greg McBride:
Bankrate.com. We have all this content we talked about. Shopping around for the insurance, shopping around for the mortgage, using our calculator to figure out how much you can afford, what fits in your budget. You can follow me on Twitter @BankrateGreg.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, much great info there. Here is a recap of some highlights. When it comes to the price that you pay for a home, don't get caught up in the FOMO and the hype, do not overextend yourself, be a little conservative. Pay attention to your credit score, the better the score, the better deal you will get on a mortgage. Don't wait until the end to price in homeowners insurance, know the cost early in the process, so you budget for it. With a home, you own it and it is going to be on you to get whatever needs fixing fixed. Maintenance is real for grown-up homeowners. Appliances have a life cycle, make sure you know the age of not just the kitchen appliances, but also things like air conditioning, things break. Your taxes could be higher than the current homeowner who may be grandfathered in to a lower rate, check with a primary source.

Bobbi Rebell:
Don't assume the real estate's information is fully up-to-date. And finally, look at bundling your insurance policies. Look for ways to get a discount. Even being near a fire station could be a factor that can work in your favor. Now to some podcasts housekeeping. First, how are you guys liking the new money tips format. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and let me know. Also, get out and celebrate life's milestones with your friends and families. We all need and deserve it. It's been a really hard year, plus make sure you get your gifts at grownupgear.com, and I will be eternally grateful for your business. As a special promotion, we are going to keep giving away $150 gift card to Grownup Gear each week to listeners until July 4th, which of course is Independence Day. Maybe we can also call it Financial Independence Day. There are two ways to enter to win.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, you can take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media and tag me @bobbirebell1. And then also, email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us again at hello@financialgrownup.com. Grownup Gear is what a lot of people call a micro business and we really do need and appreciate all of your support, so please check it out and tell your friends. And, thank you. Please share this podcast as well. Greg McBride was so amazing with all of his grownup advice, so thank you Greg, and the team by the way, at Bankrate for helping us all be financial grownup's.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com you can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips For Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me, so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts, reading each one means the world to me. And, you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Acorn’s Chief Education Officer Jennifer Barrett shares her own “wake up’ call’ when she learned to think like a breadwinner, and gives us specific strategies to build wealth and create a path to have the rich life we all deserve. 

Jennifer’s Money Lesson-

I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth. So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Jennifer’s Money Tip-

I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbi’s Tips-

Financial Grownup Tip #1-

Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent.

Financial Grownup Tip #2-

Thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Get your copy of Think Like A Bread Winner by Jennifer Barrett

Follow Jennifer!

• Instagram - @jbarrettnyc

• Twitter- @jbarrettNYC

• LinkedIn- Jennifer Barrett

• Website- www.jenniferbarrett.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

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• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbie Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good, and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more thaT I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle.

Bobbie Rebell: Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently. Like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup, or almost grownup, friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear, and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Jen Barrett: Deep down. I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life. I really thought my husband would be the main earner. So it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary, and then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises.

Bobbie Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbie Rebell: Hey, Grownups, this episode has been about five years in the making. I'll never forget sitting in a Midtown restaurant with my new friend, Jennifer Barrett. A mutual friend had introduced us thinking, "Well, you guys have a lot in common and maybe you guys will come up with some projects together." So we were brainstorming our two big ideas. For me, it was Financial Grownup and the idea of sharing money stories to inspire people to build the foundation for a wealthy life of choices, getting to live the life that they want. For Jen, it was the concept that we all had to, well, think like breadwinners. Jen had, and still has, I should say, what we call a big job. She really is the breadwinner and her job as the chief education officer at Acorns is intense and sometimes all consuming. But finally, her new book, Think Like a Bread Winner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less is coming out.

Bobbie Rebell:I can tell all of you it has been well worth the wait. I was honored that Jen asked me to contribute to this book and to endorse it along with David Bach, Eve Rodsky, the author of Fairplay, Farnoosh Torabi, who by the way wrote When She Makes More, so thinking along the same path, and Erin Lowry, who's been a frequent guest on this podcast, author of the Broke Millennial books series, and many more. In our interview, Jen Barrett shares the story that started it all when she realized what she didn't want to admit. If she wanted to get what she wanted to get, she was going to have to start thinking like a breadwinner. Here is Jennifer Barrett.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen Barrett, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jen Barrett: Thanks so much for having me.

Bobbie Rebell: I'm so excited to talk to you about your new book. So many years in the making, we've been talking about this for years. It's finally here. Think Like A Breadwinner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less. By the way, Jen, it's already getting reviews that are amazing. This one I'm going to read to people. It's from Ladders, which is a career website. "Jennifer Barrett's manifesto for working women transcends its goal by being more than a finance book, but a testament that anyone anywhere can achieve their goals with the right advice." Not bad, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, that was a nice review. It was nice to read.

Bobbie Rebell: You're very modest.

Jen Barrett: I know. You're so nervous. You're on pins and needles before the book comes out. You're like, "I hope they like it." So it was really nice to read that.

Bobbie Rebell: Well, I got a sneak peek of the book because I got to endorse it so everyone can read my blurb when they get the book. Before we talk more about it, though, you did bring with you a money story, which really inspired the book so many years ago. Tell us your money story, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, well, there's a material difference between being able to cover the bills and handle a budgets and building wealth that supports your life and the future you want. That difference became super clear to me just after we'd had our oldest son. At the time, I was in my early 30s and we were sharing a small one bedroom apartment with our toddler who was about 18 months old. One night I was pacing back and forth with him, trying to get him back to sleep, and I think it just hit me so hard in that moment that we were in a situation that was just completely unsustainable.

Jen Barrett: I had this moment of, "Wait a second. I thought I was doing everything right financially." I had a little 401k. I had a little bit of savings. I was paying half the bills. But what I realized was that I hadn't been putting money away for the things that were most important to me, and that was being able to have another child, to afford to buy a place or even to move into a bigger apartments because we lived in Brooklyn, which is not cheap. I did some real soul searching and asked myself, "Why didn't I make those choices with my money to save more and to invest more?" I realized that subconsciously I had been thinking that my husband would take the lead there. In that moment, I think it finally dawned on me how precarious an assumption that is. So I asked myself in the days that followed, "How would the choices I make with my money and my career be different if I had been raised to think like a breadwinner?"

Jen Barrett: That's what sort of set me off on a whole new journey and brought me to where I am today, more than a decade later, which is a much better place financially. We have a larger home. I helped with most of the down payment. We have two lovely sons now. I've had both a career and been able to build the kind of wealth that I couldn't have even imagined 12 years ago when I had that wake up call.

Bobbie Rebell: Tell us more about what you were doing before you had that wake up call, what kind of job you had. Because you had a really good job that a lot of people would be very, very envious of and really admire. I mean, you were high achieving and then the things that you looked for in the next job, besides obviously paying more. I know there was a lot of soul searching about sort of what people would think, because we're both journalist backgrounds, there's a lot of judgment there.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, and I think that's an important point is just because you have a good job doesn't mean that you have your finances together. You can be a professional success and feel like a financial failure. I interviewed more than 100 women for the book and I did find that to be the case with a surprising number of women who were otherwise very successful. So I think I was in sort of the same situation but with one crucial distinction, which is I was an editor at Newsweek at that point a pretty big weekly news magazine. It has since sort of gone under and been reborn and it's not quite the same as it used to be, but it was a great job. I really looked like I had it all together from the outside, but I was really living paycheck to paycheck for the most part.

Jen Barrett: We say paycheck to paycheck, but what I was was broke, right? I only had a few hundred dollars in my savings. I was still paying down some credit card debt. So if you looked at my actual net worth, I was in negative territory and I really wasn't making the kinds of choices or making the kinds of money that would allow me to support the life that I really wanted. One big reason for that, which is almost embarrassing to admit now and I've since changed my approach with this significantly, is that I had never negotiated my salary. So when I got the job at Newsweek, I was just so thrilled to be hired there I literally did not even think to negotiate. I do think part of that was that I was so excited to be hired there, but the other part of it was deep down I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life.

Jen Barrett: I really thought my husband would be the main earner and so it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary. Then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises. So one other critical moment for me was I came back from maternity leave and I found out that someone had been hired who had just a few more years experience than me in a very similar role and they were making 50% more than me. That moment was like ... It was so crushing that I vowed I would never ever make that mistake again and I was going to negotiate the hell out of every job offer and raise that I got from that point on, and it made me sort of reassess this idea I had about loyalty and about employers just taking care of you because you're doing a great job. It was a real wake up call in that sense too, where I realized I need to advocate for myself. I need to show my value. I need to ask for it and not assume that I'm going to get it just because I'm doing a good job.

Bobbie Rebell: So you set out to get a job that paid more. Tell us what that job was and how that onboarding went.

Jen Barrett: Yeah. So I was hired in my first job in management. I became the director of a health site. It was part of NBC. It was called iVillage Health. It was a huge site at the time. I think one of the top five largest health sites for women. It was a dramatic increase in the amount of responsibility I had, but also in my salary. So I ended up making almost double what I had ... Actually, no. More than double what I had been making at Newsweek and in between there I freelanced, and when I was freelancing, I really understood that I had undervalued myself and my skills because I was able to make a lot more freelancing than I had in my full-time job at Newsweek. So that was also a realization and a validation of the fact that the skills that I had were valuable. Then with this job, it both provided a lot more income. It allowed me to get the mortgage and it also put me on the management track, which I have been on ever since.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what was your husband thinking while this was going on? Did you have talks about this?

Jen Barrett: We did and I think part of it was when he and I first started dating, he was working at a startup at the time and was making a lot more than I was as a reporter. But I think that's where some of the assumptions sort of got set in my head. The startup went under and then he moved back to journalism. So he took a pretty big pay cut and suddenly our salaries were much closer than they have been. But I think in my head, I still kept telling myself that that was a temporary situation. I still expected him to earn considerably more than me, even as the evidence started to mount that that may not be the case, particularly with both of us being in journalism. We did have some discussions around that and in particular, when I got that job in management at that point, he was on contract.

Jen Barrett: So we realized that my income and my income prospects were probably greater at that particular point. Certainly I was the one who had secured the mortgage in part because I had a full-time job and it's very difficult when you are on contract to get approved. So we realized that my income was really critical to the household and so that launched a whole series of discussions about how is this going to work. I'm not going to say it was easy. We had to have a lot of really difficult discussions because I was pregnant with our second son when I moved into the breadwinner role. In my mind, again, I thought, "Oh, this is sort of a temporary situation where I'm going to take on this really demanding role so we can get the mortgage. I'll keep doing this."

Jen Barrett: Then I found I really enjoyed it. I realized I really am quite ambitious and so I wasn't sure I wanted to give up that role, but at the same time, for a while I was also trying to be the primary caregiver and that, as anyone who has tried to do both can tell you, is almost impossible to sustain. So it led to some really emotional and candid conversations with my husband about what role are we each going to take here and how are we going to divide all the responsibilities, household responsibilities, caregiving, breadwinning, in a way that feels fair to each of us?

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what is the lesson from your story?

Jen Barrett: I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth.

Jen Barrett: So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Bobbie Rebell: You also brought with you in everyday money tip.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbie Rebell: It's a very good gut check and I think it's something that sounds easy, but we don't really do that a lot. We don't usually just kind of pause and sit down and really think about that and maybe even write down a few things that we want to do. I find when you write things down, sometimes they stick a little bit better. I don't know. All right, we got to shift gears because I don't want to run out of time and we have to talk about Think Like A Breadwinner because this is a book that has been in the making for quite a long time, because it is so well researched, Jen. You spent a lot of time doing the work here and the book is chock-full of statistics that are ... Some of them would just blow my mind. If you could share with us just one statistic that's sort of your elevator pitch to get this book, what is that one stat that stands out?

Jen Barrett: Well, I think one of the most significant stats is that half of moms in this country today are contributing at least 40% of the total household earnings. That's according to the latest Institute for Women's Policy Research report. That just reinforces the fact that women's income is absolutely critical right now. I think we saw that when women started dropping out of the workforce. We could see what the impact was going to be, not just on families, but on the economy.

Bobbie Rebell: A lot of this book was already done before the pandemic, but you were still finishing it up during the pandemic. What is in the book now that would not have been pre-pandemic?

Jen Barrett: The pandemic reminded us of how important it is to take charge of our finances and to build the kind of savings and wealth that provide financial security and help us weather tough times like this. So that message of taking care of yourself and putting money into an investment account and building wealth to support you not just now but in the future is more important than ever.

Bobbie Rebell: So well said. Jen, where can people catch up with you? I know that your book is going to be everywhere.

Jen Barrett: I hope so. You can find me at jenniferbarrett.com and you can read more about the book there, and then I'm on social media all over the place. It's @jbarrettNYC on Instagram, Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn.

Bobbie Rebell: All the places.

Jen Barrett: Oh, the places. Clubhouse. Yes.

Bobbie Rebell: Yes, Clubhouse. Let's not forget that. Thanks, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Thank you.

Bobbie Rebell: Here we go. Financial Grownup tip number one. Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent. Financial Grownup tip number two, thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Bobbie Rebell: One thing I do, I always try to think of new revenue streams. My latest is Grownup Gear. You can see more about it at grownupgear.com. I hope you'll support it by checking out the merchandise. It's perfect for all of your grownup milestones. Gifts for graduation, new parents, mother's day, father's day, a new home, birthdays, or just celebrating being a grownup and kind of owning it. Discount codes available on my Instagram @bobbirebell1. Another reason to follow me on Instagram, we will be giving away copies of Jen's book and of other authors on the show. This spring, so many amazing authors are on tap and they're generously giving gifts to our Grownup community. I also want to invite everyone to join our weekly Friday at 1:00 PM Clubhouse chats in the Money Tips For Grownups club. DM me on Instagram if you need and invite to Clubhouse. Big thanks to Jen Barrett for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbie Rebell: The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books.

Bobbie Rebell: To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Author Lindsey Pollak watched her thriving speaking career hit a wall when the pandemic hit a year ago. The career and workplace expert realized she had ignored her own advice, and had all her eggs in one basket. Lindsey gets refreshingly candid about how bad it got, what she did, and how we can all do better. 

Financial Grownup Tip #1: Social media is more than social. Certainly during the pandemic depending on your business,  it has become an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the ones that fit your business. It’s not just about being social- it is about career success -and sometimes survival as well.

Financial Grownup Tip #2- If you are on social media- don’t forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in clubhouse- raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only but I do have invites so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on clubhouse- Money Tips for Grownups. I’d love to connect with you there. 

Buy your copy of Recalculating : Navigate Your Career Through The Changing World of Work.

Follow Lindsey!

• Twitter- @LindseyPollak

• LinkedIn- Lindsey Pollak

• Website- lindseypollak.com

• Instagram- @LindseyPollak

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Full Transcript-

Bobbi Rebell: Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes. And thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Lindsey Pollak : I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures in speaking bookings. And my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to financial grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: It's been a year guys. If you want to get technical, it's been a year and about a week. Although most of us, frankly, lost count of the days and didn't even know which day of the week it was for a while. The pandemic put so many of our lives on hold and so many of our businesses in the tank.

Bobbi Rebell: For people who make their living talking to people in-person, they went from thriving to, well, there's no cute pun here. The business died. There was nothing there. For my friend, Lindsey Pollak, who is a top speaker and bestselling author, ironically in the career space, her career literally went poof last March with no end in sight.

Bobbi Rebell: This was literally unchartered territory for pretty much anyone alive these days. Two weeks to stop the spread was one thing, but getting back to packed rooms with over 1,000 people as she was used to, yeah, crickets. Even now. Lindsey agreed to share her experience with us in the hopes that many of us can at least relate to and get some solace from her experiences.

Bobbi Rebell: She also has, as she always has, great and specific advice on how we can better be prepared for the future and the unimaginable. She also managed to write a fantastic book in quarantine. It is called Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work. we do a little sneak peak at the end of our interview. Here is Lindsey Pollak. Lindsey Pollak, you are a financial grownup and welcome back to the show.

Lindsey Pollak : It is an honor to be back for the second time. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk about your new book, which was written in quarantine and has a lot of really relevant advice for anyone who is thinking of recalculating. That's also the name of the book. But first you brought us a very relevant story that happened to you just when quarantine was starting. And sadly, too many of us can relate to this. Tell us your money story, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I'd be happy to. So, like many people in March of 2020, everything stopped and everything changed. And I think we hear about food service people and certain jobs that you know would be destroyed by the pandemic or pushed off. Professional speakers were in that category.

Lindsey Pollak : I had at that time, been doing about 70 to 80 live speaking events per year. And I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures. I can't even say it. I stumble on the words. I lost six figures in speaking bookings and my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: Just to explain how speaking works, you had deposits. How does the contract work? Did you have to return all the deposits or did they reschedule or was it just gone?

Lindsey Pollak : So, you know what's interesting is, my contract said that the deposits were nonrefundable and that we would make our best efforts to reschedule if something got canceled. Several people took me up on that, I will say, and let me keep the deposits.

Lindsey Pollak : Several requested for their own financial difficulties to return it and I made the decision to do that, to keep the relationships because I understood that people were in really tough times. So I did return them. So it sort of went beyond the contract. And for anything that had been booked, but not yet paid, of course, that just disappeared. Bobbi Rebell: So then what?

Lindsey Pollak : It was tough. And I'll tell you a couple of things, because it's a financial podcast. Number one, just by luck, about a year before my bookkeeper had said, "You really need to have a credit line for your business." I had contacted my bank, Chase Bank, and gotten a very significant credit line because I have good credit that I'm extremely proud of. It's one of the proudest things in my life that I have good credit. And I got a significant six-figure credit line, which saved me.

Lindsey Pollak : I paid it all back ultimately over time, but having that fund to dip into to make sure that I could continue to pay my assistant and my rent and so on. I cut back on expenses tremendously, and I started reaching out. And it's really interesting as I didn't have a plan for where the money would come from, but I've always relied on the fact that relationships are where opportunities come from.

Lindsey Pollak : And I just called people, checked in, "How are you doing? What's going on? How are you?" I mean, for about four weeks, it was just, "Oh my gosh, what's happening?" And slowly but surely, a relationship with a UK firm that had been pending for a while, took off. Slowly but surely, people who had never booked for years were like, "Hey, could you do a session on how to work remotely?" And I was like, "Yes, I can." That had been one slide in my presentation. And now, suddenly that became a presentation.

Lindsey Pollak : It was nowhere near what I had projected for the year, but the year turned out okay. And this miracle moment was on May 5th. I'll never remember. I got an email from my agent about something totally different. And at the very bottom of the email, she said, "And by the way, do you think you might want to write a book during this pandemic experience? I feel like you might have something to say." And that one sentence turned into Recalculating, which we're here today to talk about.

Bobbi Rebell: So perfect. So you basically pivoted from doing speaking to going back to book writing, which you were always doing. This is I think number four, number five? I can't keep track of you, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I think of them like children and I had been writing a book every five years. And I had written the remix last year in 2019. And I say it's like my accidental fourth child. I didn't mean to have a child so quickly after my third, but so it happens. Bobbi Rebell: Well, it's a wonderful book. We're going to talk about it soon, but tell me what is the lesson for our listeners from this?

Lindsey Pollak : It's something that I think is such a cliche, but true. Necessity is the mother of invention. I was a speaker. I was like, I'm a speaker. That's what I do. And I realized I can't only be a speaker.

Lindsey Pollak : And when I look at the people I most admire in my world, people like you, it's do you have a podcast? Do you have online courses? Do you have newsletters? Do you get paid to write? And what I remembered is sometimes you go back to basics, which I think is the other lesson.

Lindsey Pollak : When I was first starting out, I didn't make enough money from speaking. So I was freelance writing. I was coaching. I was doing resume reviews. I was doing anything I could. And I realized I have to get back into that mindset that I'm not "just a speaker." And that's what led to these other opportunities.

Lindsey Pollak : Now, I don't want to say it was easy. I don't want to say I wasn't scared, or I didn't stay up at night, or I wasn't uncomfortable dipping into my savings or my credit line, which I did do. But ultimately, what got me through it, was going back to basics and realizing I have to get creative.

Bobbi Rebell: Looking back, what would you have done differently in terms of setting up your life? Would you have diversified your business more in advance?

Lindsey Pollak : Yes. Sometimes success is not so good because you get so deep into one area that you put all your eggs in one basket. And what's really funny is I've advised job seekers for years, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Even if you're happily employed, keep your network going. Don't just apply for jobs in one field." And I had to take my own advice.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said. And it's good to know that even people far along and super successful in their careers, sometimes have to take their own advice, which they move past. I love this. You brought with you an everyday money tip and I'm going to give a little bit of a spoiler. One part of this made you $2,000 in just extra cash. Tell us your everyday money tip because this is so fascinating. I had no idea this was such a big thing.

Lindsey Pollak : Okay. So at my heart, I grew up in Norwalk, Connecticut, the burbs. I am just a suburban girl. And in my high school, I remember they had all these categories, best dressed, best looking, all that. There was informal stuff that we would just send around to be silly.

Lindsey Pollak : And mine was most likely to drive a station wagon in the suburbs. Which by the way, I have not done, but my money tip was to clip coupons. And in the old days, I remember going to the grocery store with my mom and she had an envelope. Right. And she would hand the coupons to the checkout person. And apparently, I used to play that at home, handing the coupons to the checkout person. Bobbi Rebell: I think we all did.

Lindsey Pollak : I think we all did. Right. Bobbi Rebell: My mom definitely had the coupons. And a whole organizer. There was a coupon organizer box.

Lindsey Pollak : Oh yeah. A little box. Bobbi Rebell: And she would organize what she was going to bring that day. And you were waiting for the double coupon day.

Lindsey Pollak : And here we are, talking about personal finances on a podcast. So, the modern day version of that, it used to be called Ebates. Now it's called Rakuten. Rakuten is I have this little widget on my browser and on my phone that tells me that I can get cash back if you shop through Ebates or Rakuten.

Lindsey Pollak : And over the past several years, I've made $2,000 using that little widget to get little discounts on things. And yeah, of course, I look like, "Ooh, that's fine. I can get a little bit more cash back than if I shop at such and such." And it's funny. I always did it. My husband would make fun of me like, "Ooh, you got your $7.53 check today." And then I looked and I saw, wow, over a few years, I've made $2,000 back and that's real money.

Bobbi Rebell: And that was basically on money you were probably going to spend anyway. Now you might've chosen one retailer over another because of it, but still, it's money.

Lindsey Pollak : Target is my favorite one. The Target app I've saved, I think $110. We've been quarantining in Connecticut. And I think I've saved $110 this year, which is only $10 a month, but hey, I used that credit for other good stuff.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, absolutely. So I have in my hand, my early copy. This is one of my favorite perks of doing this podcast. I have an early copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work, which you wrote during quarantine. So, tell us what is different now, both in quarantine and hopefully, very soon as we emerge from quarantine, in terms of how we recalculate our careers and our life?

Lindsey Pollak : The first thing to think about is, recalculating is not one thing that you do in a moment and then it's over. Right. It's not like a fork in the road. I think we all need to be re-skilling, up-skilling pivoting, diversifying all the things that we talked about in my own story.

Lindsey Pollak : What we've learned through COVID is you cannot coast. Right. You can't just say, "Well, I'm comfortable where I am and I'm going to keep moving forward." You probably never could. But I think we all know that now more than ever.

Lindsey Pollak : And a really important piece of that, that I know you're so good at and is important to you, is if you're not getting good at virtual communication, and remote communication, and email, and texting, and Slack, and social media, you are not keeping up with the tools that you need to have to succeed now and into the future. It's no longer a nice to have. It's an absolute must have skill.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes, I am always learning different things. I mean, for example, right now, I started this merch store and I had to learn all this stuff about how to connect it to Instagram and so on. But it's actually really fun and you feel very accomplished. So, technical skills and learning new ways of doing business is very important.

Bobbi Rebell: And on that note, a lot of people have questions about how to use social media differently while we're in this pandemic, because it does become more important when we can't be social in person. Right.

Lindsey Pollak : Absolutely. But I think there are parallels. And so, the parallels are you've got to remember that each social network, if you're looking at it from a professional standpoint, like networking to find a job or new clients. Just like it's different to chat with people at the supermarket than to chat with people at a black tie gala, you have to see the social networks as different. You can't be the same or use the same language and style, or even necessarily profile photo, on Twitter as you would on LinkedIn, or on Instagram, or on Clubhouse, or what have you. So, number one is to acknowledge that they're all different.

Lindsey Pollak : Number two is I think you do use them in the same way you would in-person networking. So, you and I, let's say, may bond on Facebook because you're wearing a cute shirt or I see a cute picture of your son. I'm not going to say, "Do you have a job." Or, "Can I send you my resume?" I'm going to say, "Hey, great photo. Hey, do you want to get together and talk sometime about work stuff?" It's an entry point, just as if I saw you on the sidelines of a soccer game, we would talk about the game. I wouldn't start to launch into my sales pitch.

Lindsey Pollak : So, I think that social media should be seen as these personal moments where you might "bump into somebody." And then you take it to the next level off of that social network to have the professional conversation. LinkedIn is a bit different. I think LinkedIn is like a professional conference where people go, no one's going to be offended if you try to network professionally on LinkedIn. That's the point. It's like being at a conference. But for all the other sites, it's about building and solidifying real, authentic, personal relationships. And then you take the conversation elsewhere after that. Bobbi Rebell: And what do you think about Clubhouse? Because you're very successful on Clubhouse. I love dropping in on the rooms that you're in and the conversations. What's your take and your advice to people on how to use Clubhouse?

Lindsey Pollak : So that's a really good example of like, "I don't know, I'll give it a try. This is a new thing, and I'm going to try it." And I wasn't sure. To me, it's like a mix between listening to the radio and dropping in on a podcast or a webinar. But sometimes you get to talk.

Lindsey Pollak : What's absolutely amazing to me is how much free advice is there. I'm providing it myself. I do a career chat every Wednesday at one o'clock with a bunch of career experts and people just ask their questions. And what's really cool is, not only do we give our thoughts or advice, but other people on the call can raise their hand and say, "Hey, I know somebody." Or, "Oh, I have an idea for you."

Lindsey Pollak : And so, what's happening is like these conference moments in the Clubhouse app. So I'd really encourage people to give it a try. And if it's not for you, it's not for you, but it's just another tool where you might bond. And just funny things like bumping into each other. I was on it yesterday. I went to graduate school in Australia at this school called Monash University, which is just outside of Melbourne. Most people have never heard of it.

Lindsey Pollak : There was a woman on the call who had gone to Monash University and had moved to the United States. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, you're kidding." And we met on Clubhouse. So you just never know what kinds of moments like that can happen wherever you decide to show up, but you have to decide to show up.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely. So, everyone should follow Lindsey on Clubhouse. And also me. I'm on Clubhouse too.

Lindsey Pollak : Yeah. Bobbi Rebell: And I'm still learning the ropes, but I'm having a great time on it too. So, please follow both of us. Your book Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work is going to be available everywhere, March 23rd. Where can people get in touch with you?

Lindsey Pollak : So my website is my name, lindseypollock.com. I'll spell it for you because it's a doozy. L-I-N-D-S-E-Y-P-O-L-L-A-K. I'm the only one in the world who spells it that exact way. And I'd be delighted to connect with anyone there or on social media.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Lindsey Pollak : Thank you, Bobbi. Bobbi Rebell: Here we go. Financial grownup tip number one. Social media is a lot more than social these days. Certainly during the pandemic, depending on your business, it became an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the onesthat fit your business. It's not just about being social. It is about career success and sometimes career survival as well.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two. If you are on social media, don't forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in Clubhouse, raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only, but I do have invites, so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on Clubhouse, Money tips for Grownups. I'd love to connect with you there.

Bobbi Rebell: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a screenshot and share it on social media. And if you tag me, @bobbirebell1, that will also enter you into our book and merch giveaways. I also want to encourage everyone to pre-order a copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work by Lindsey Pollak. It is a bit complicated, but it really helps Lindsey if you pre-order it.

Bobbi Rebell: And this episode is dropping about a week before it's released, so you still have a week to get it done. And it is truly a big deal to Lindsey, so thank you for doing that. I promise you will love it. And big thanks to my friend, Lindsey Pollak, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell: The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell: Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell: While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram, @bobbirebell1, and on Twitter,

@ bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcast. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Are you working harder than ever and not getting paid what you are worth? Claire Wasserman explains why so many of us get short-changed and shares 5 specific strategies that will upsize our income and compensation. Plus, Claire reveals the behind the scenes story of AOC’s decision to run for political office and her role in the gutsy move. 

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Claire’s 5 Tips For How To Get Paid More!

Tip #1-

Talk to real people about their salary. You could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to a real person. Remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Tip #2-

Have three numbers. I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. This is a big problem because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. Oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter. So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there. So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Tip #3-

Talk about the whole picture. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Tip #4-

Talk about your value add. I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but make the case for yourself. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company." If you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. Discounts with vendors? Maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money. That is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees. Have testimonials too. You should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review.

Tip #5-

You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. So how do you address this? You use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." You've said your big number. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together."

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Get your copy of LADIES GET PAID.

Follow Claire!

• Twitter - @ladiesgetpaid

• Instagram - @ladiesgetpaid + @clairegetspaid

• Claire’s website - www.ladiesgetpaid.com + www.clairewasserman.com

• Facebook - Ladies Get Paid

• LinkedIn - Ladies Get Paid

Follow Bobbi!

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Merch - grownupgear.com
  

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy Tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally, makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

Bobbi Rebell: I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good. And that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of T-shirts sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more, that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently, like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt.

Bobbi Rebell: The most comfy sweatshirts, T-Shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more, give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost grownup friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle @GrownupGear, and DMS with any questions. And thank you, because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup Guide, five ways to get paid more with Ladies Get Paid's Claire Wasserman.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey, grownup friends. Do you want to make more money? Yeah I thought so, and yeah, me too. The harsh reality is that the pandemic has been brutal, not just for our health, but also, yeah, for our wealth. Because how do you ask for more money from your boss, or how do you raise prices on your customers in a pandemic? I mean, we should be grateful just to have our jobs, just to have our businesses running if that's the case, which is true. That doesn't mean that we don't deserve to get paid more, and that doesn't mean that we can't get paid more. And we should not assume that those who make the decisions can't and aren't willing to pay us more. Right?

Bobbi Rebell: So I was thrilled to get to talk with Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid about her new book aptly titled, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. So, if you are open to making more money, this episode is definitely for you. By the way, no need to take notes. As always, the show notes have a quick summary of the episode, and all the links that you will need, and even a transcript of the entire interview. You just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and click on the Financial Grownup tab to bring you to the podcast section. There's also a search box on the top right if you want to search for this or a past episode.

Bobbi Rebell: Okay, my friends here is Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid.

Bobbi Rebell: Claire Wasserman, welcome to the Financial Grownup Podcast, and congrats on your new book, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career.

Claire Wasserman: Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk more about the book later in the show, but I want to get right into the five ways to get paid more that you brought for us. The first one is about talking to real people. And that sounds easy, but in this age, it can be complicated.

Claire Wasserman: Well, you could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to real people.

Claire Wasserman: Here's the good news, if you are nervous, remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Claire Wasserman: Now, you don't have to ask people specifically, "How much do you make?" Because sometimes that can feel a little uncomfortable. So instead, how about you bring them the research that you've done? "Listen, I'm an art director, five years into my career. I am working for a company that has 10 people." And please note here, I'm talking about context. Context is key. Tell them, "This is the research I did between X and Y. This is the salary. I think I should be getting paid. Am I off base, or, more abstractly, what's the ballpark that you're making?" Just remember, you want to talk to white men also, because they're the ones who are getting paid the most.

Claire Wasserman: And if any of them were trying to figure out how to be allies, which a lot of them are, this is a great way that they can support you. So don't be afraid to even cold email people, find them on LinkedIn, tell them you're trying to figure out your salary and you'd love for them to be an ally. How much do they make? Would they be willing to share, even just a ballpark. The worst thing that can happen is they just don't respond.

Bobbi Rebell: The second tip to get paid more is, "Have three numbers." What does that mean, Claire?

Claire Wasserman: Well, I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. Big problem, big problem, because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. I mean, oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter.

Claire Wasserman: So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there.

Claire Wasserman: So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Bobbi Rebell: Even though you have those three numbers in your head, is it better to try to get them to make the first offer, or is it better for you to throw out the number first?

Claire Wasserman: I have a controversial opinion here, because I think when you do research, a lot of other coaches will tell you, "Never be the first one to say the number, because you might low ball yourself."

Claire Wasserman: If you've done the market research and they're paying in the market research, when you were the first person to say it, you're anchoring high. If they are the first person, they may be anchoring low. And it sometimes can feel a little uncomfortable to say, "Well, that wasn't really what I was thinking," or it might throw you off, maybe even demoralizes you. So start with the number you want, but back it up with the research that you've done. You can even say, "I've spoken to a number of other people," if they ask, "Where did you get this number?"

Claire Wasserman: And you can also say things like, "This is the number, the market research that I found, but what are you proposing?" So it's not like you're ending the conversation with that first number.

Bobbi Rebell: And a lot of employers, though, try to find out what you were making before and anchor to that. How should people handle that? Because it also depends where you live.

Clair Wasserman: Exactly. So some states have passed what's called the Salary History Ban. The thinking behind that is if marginalized groups are getting paid less than other people from the beginning of their career, and every time that they get a raise, if that's always based on that original salary, well then, the gap will compound over time and will never catch up. So you can decline to respond, or you can be abstract, or tell them how much you got paid, but listen, that's not relevant to the ask now.

Claire Wasserman: I mean, even think about this, look at the original job description, write a new one for what you did. You're going to see a lot of changes. You're going to see experiences, growth, maybe totally different work that you ended up taking on. So the salary that was originally given to you was based on what you knew then. Regardless of what this next job is, and the market research, just know for yourself that you have grown by leaps and bounds since that first salary.

Bobbi Rebell: Number three, "You want to talk about the whole picture."

Claire Wasserman: Yes. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability, full compensation. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Claire Wasserman: So I would say, "What are the top one, two and three items for full comp you can bring up?" I would personally bring it up after the salary conversation is over, only because I don't want them to use your full comp ask as leverage to get that salary down. And you want to ask for this, regardless of whether or not it's a pandemic, just be prepared that you may need to ask for more things, more full comp, if a time like now, if they're not saying yes to the salary.

Claire Wasserman: If you're wondering, "Well, Claire, if they don't have the money to give me a salary bump, how are they going to afford to give me a signing bonus, or pay for me to go to a conference?" A lot of times these come from different budgets. I know so many women who were not able to get the salary they wanted, but the signing bonus actually got them to a place where their now annual salary was exactly what they wanted to begin with. And that was simply because different budgets from different departments.

Claire Wasserman: So if you don't ask, a hundred percent, you're not getting. Again, the worst thing that can happen is they say, "No," which in my mind is really a, "Not yet." And then you can continue the conversation later.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that. A "Not yet." Not a "No." Are there benefits that have evolved during the pandemic that people may not be aware of, that they can ask for?

Claire Wasserman: Well, make sure that you're getting cell phone and internet and anything that requires you to do work from home, which by the way, I think most of us are doing, or a lot of us are doing that.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh yeah.

Claire Wasserman: I wonder if it can even be your laptop, paper, pen, I mean, really pretend you're a freelancer, to be honest. Your overhead costs, they should be paying for. If you want to continue flexibility, you've really proven now to them that it is possible. So if this fits for your lifestyle and you want to do a hybrid model, be prepared to ask, and you can make the case, I think, pretty easily.

Bobbi Rebell: Is that something you should ask before you start, or is that something that you should wait? Because traditionally, people often said "Go in 100% and be extremely present. And then once you prove yourself and they know you and they trust you, then you can ask for a hybrid approach." What's your take on that?

Claire Wasserman: Yeah. I mean, if this is a deal breaker for you, then you definitely want to bring this up maybe during the interview, otherwise you're wasting your own time along with theirs. You can also ask open-ended question of, "Do you have a hybrid model? Are there other people doing this? I'm just curious." So you can get a sense from the very beginning of their openness to the conversation.

Claire Wasserman: And then in terms of proving yourself, sure, but just to remember that it's not necessarily all or nothing. You can ask for maybe once or twice a month, or once a week, or something where they can see how this is going to go. And also proactively address all the reasons that they might be hesitant, so you're not just, "Hey, can I work from home?" And letting them tell you, "No, no, no." It's okay if you're concerned about team dynamic or communication, "Here's a way that we can address that." Just making it really easy for them to feel good about saying yes to you.

Bobbi Rebell: Exactly. And make it easy to say yes. The fourth way to get paid more is my favorite. It's about your value add, really.

Claire Wasserman: I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but making the case... So it's you say, "Well, Hey, I want top dollar." "Well, hold on now. You have to prove to me that you're a top performer." You don't get the money, because you deserve it, even though, I know you deserve it. And it's also not about, "Here's the work that I did," because guess what? It was your job. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company."

Claire Wasserman: Now, if you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, well, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. I mean, discounts with vendors, maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money that is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees.

Claire Wasserman: So if you're a part of contributing to the culture of the company, it means as much as if you were able to land a client, but you just have to make the case. Have testimonials too. So through all throughout the year, I mean, first of all, you should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review. I mean, not to put it so... It sounds not great, but that's the same thing. It's like, "Don't just take my word for it. Take Bob's word for it."

Bobbi Rebell: Okay. The fifth way to get paid more, this is something I think is very hard for a lot of women, because you tell them to be assertive, but you also have to have empathy.

Claire Wasserman: You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because we are, this is terrible, but there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating, put others before ourselves, be nice, be good girls, don't disrupt.

Claire Wasserman: Well, hold on now. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. Well, what's the chance that they're going to now look at you like you're aggressive? And women of color, I know you're nodding. This is something that they even more. So how do you address this? Well, you use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." But you've said your big number, I want to be clear. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together." Or, "I know this is a company that pays women equitably." That's actually shaming them a little bit.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that one.

Claire Wasserman: Or, "This is a company that is very fair. I'm sure we can figure this out together." And you can always, at the very end, just say, "Well, what would you do if you were in my shoes?" Bring it around. And do remember that we're all negotiating in this environment. They will, I think, automatically have empathy with you if you have empathy with them.

Bobbi Rebell: I don't want to let you go before we talk a little bit about your book directly. Like I said, it's called Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. What was your favorite chapter?

Claire Wasserman: I don't think I have a favorite chapter. I just have favorite stories. So for those of you listening, if you're not familiar with the book, I structure it by following the lives of nine real women from the Ladies Get Paid community. Each of them is going through a different professional challenge. And as I tell their story, I stop along the way, and I give advice.

Claire Wasserman: A woman who came to the second workshop that I ever organized about getting unstuck in her career, and all the way, for the next year and a half, she wanted to be in some kind of civic engagement role, maybe in politics. And finally, at a town hall that I hosted about reinventing yourself, she stood up and she declared to the whole room, "I have always wanted to run for office, but people who look like me don't run for office." And she was a young Hispanic woman. And this was in front of a room, this is a hundred women. She said, "But I am going to run for office."

Claire Wasserman: And everybody cheered. And I cried. I cried, because I knew her. I knew her since college. We were so excited for her, because of how brave she was. She declared that she was going to do something that she was probably not going to succeed at. She was going to be going against an incumbent who was 20 or 30 years older than her, of course, a white man. And so here she was, saying, "I'm going to do this thing. And the chances that I even seed are so slim." But that was why it was courageous, and that's why we were so moved by her.

Claire Wasserman: Now, of course, a year later, she wins. Then she became the youngest Congresswoman ever. And her name is Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. So that story is my favorite. I guess I just gave away the ending of that story. If that wasn't enough to have you read the book... Well, you'll read the book. I know you all will.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah, the book was amazing. And by the way, it's important to know that even though the title is Ladies Get Paid, there is a lot of general career advice here. It's really powerful. And things that you haven't necessarily heard before are very original strategies that I think will be helpful to everyone.

Bobbi Rebell:My favorite chapter, by the way, was in level up section, you have different sections. I love chapter eight, Get Allies, because I think it's so important to have allies in your corner. As you mentioned, so many jobs are never publicly listed. And so it's important to have people that are looking out for you. And it's not always your direct inner circle. Sometimes it's your acquaintances that can be so valuable in helping your career.

Claire Wasserman: I have never gotten a job that I applied to online. I think I maybe got an interview once. My whole career has come from relationships that I've built over time. They've also been strategic. It's not mutually exclusive to be authentic and have a genuine friendship while also knowing how both of you are going to leverage each other's strengths and connections. And that, again, has been the key, the key to men, the old boys club that exists for a reason. And so we have to create the young girls club. How about that?

Bobbi Rebell: Yes. Well, it's the everyone club, really. And you have to... One of my favorite stories was the last one that you share, which is Madeline, who really investigated and was very upset to find that the men in her company were making multitudes of what she was making. I was a little bit upset by what the ending was, but it was a big lesson.

Claire Wasserman: So that name has been changed.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes.

Claire Wasserman: Her story is in the New Yorker. You can all figure it out.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah.

Claire Wasserman: It is wild. It is even more dramatic than I put in the book, because my editor thought, "Well, the people won't believe this." So you know what? Truth is stranger than fiction, and I'm so honored by her and everybody else who so vulnerably shared their struggles with me. I think it goes a long way to showing folks out there that they're not alone, which is the first step, undo any shame that you have in order to be open to learning and to helping others. We're all going through something. It's so relieving. It's like you just alleviate this weight off of you when you share your story, and I'm just honored that these women did that with me and for you all.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. And thank you for sharing all of those stories. Tell us more about where people can reach you. We know the book is available everywhere. Where can people be in touch with you and Ladies Get Paid?

Claire Wasserman: I would love you all to follow me on Instagram. I'm @ClaireGetsPaid. You can also follow @LadiesGetPaid on Instagram, and join our Slack group. We've got 75,000 women from all over the world. They've exchanged more than two million messages since 2016. So very talkative in there, and it's free. So just join at LadiesGetPaid.com, and we'll add you. And thanks, Bobbi, for having me. I always love an opportunity to share my story, and as you can tell, I like to talk.

Bobbi Rebell: If you loved what Claire had to say as much as I did, I hope you will, first of all, go buy her book. It's great. And I also hope you will take a moment, while you are listening to this podcast, and take a screenshot of it and post it on Instagram Stories or other social media. And if you tag me @BobbiRebell1, that's B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L, and then the number one, you will be entered into our monthly giveaways. You can win books by our authors that are on the podcast, as well as merch from our new Grownup Gear store. You can see the merch, by the way, right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. You'll see it says shop grownup gear.

Bobbi Rebell: Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of the Financial Grownup podcast. So grateful for Claire Wasserman for helping us all learn to get paid like financial grownups. Bye, everyone.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Jessica Zweig leads the thriving personal branding business: Simply Be. But the author of the new book "Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself” only got to this point in her life because she was able to exit a toxic business relationship that brought her personally and financially to rock bottom. Plus she shares an everyday money tip that will help us reach our goals during the pandemic, no matter what obstacles we are facing. 

Jessica’s Money Story:

My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had 100,000 local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship." And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth. It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch.

Jessica’s Money Lesson:

Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page.

Jessica’s Money Tip:

So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Bobbi’s Take:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships, and used the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. - This past week the dating app Bumble went public. Its founder,  Whitney Wolfe Herd started Bumble in 2014..  after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder, where she was a co-founder- after a breakup with another co-founder. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and is worth over a billion dollars. 

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

So many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic- in part because it feels like no one is watching. I mean after all. We can and do literally work in our pajamas. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time. Get an accountability partner. Get someone who will be committed to you- and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren’t doing that- break up fast and find another accountability partner. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy, but this more quiet time will come to an end, and the opportunity to get to your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste. 

Get your copy of Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself.

Follow Jessica!

• Twitter - @jessica_zweig

• Instagram - @jessicazweig

• Jessica’s website - www.jessicazweig.com

• Facebook - Jessica Zweig

• LinkedIn - Jessica Zweig

Follow Bobbi!

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Merch - grownupgear.com

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys, are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy t-shirts and we need to give ourselves an upgraded but still super comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

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Bobbi Rebell: The debt and the brokeness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would've if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We've got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Financial Grownup Podcast. We share money stories here that had big impacts on our guests lives and of course then they share with us the lessons from them. I'm your host Bobbi Rebell, Journalist, Certified Financial Planner and author of the book How To Be a Financial Grownup. If you're new here welcome. I'm so glad you found us.

Bobbi Rebell: So that clip that you heard at the top of the show was from author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig. Jessica has a new book out called Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. I have to say I love that title. The thing about Jessica is that if you don't know her you would never know all the things that she has had to overcome to well be where she is now that included a toxic business relationship that lasted for seven years. The breakup left her with nothing hitting rock bottom at age 33, even having to ask her parents for money just to pay her phone bill. Just when we think we will be hitting our grownup stride you never know what's going to hit us. There is a lot to learn from this remarkable woman and she does not hold back in this interview. Here is Jessica Zweig.

Bobbi Rebell: Jessica Zweig, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me Bobbi. I'm pumped to be here.

Bobbi Rebell: Well, I am pumped to have you here. Your book Be, I'm holding it up by the way, Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself is about to come out and it's your first book. Congratulations.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much. You know how much goes into it so thank you for saying that.

Bobbi Rebell: I really enjoyed learning so much about you and what you teach people in the book. What's interesting is you come across as having it all together which you do now I'm going to say but it wasn't always the case. You brought with us a money story that is sadly something many of us can relate to but often don't know what to do with, I should say that often don't know what to do about, and that is finding ourselves in toxic relationships personally and in business in work environments. Tell us your money story Jessica.

Jessica Zweig: My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had a hundred thousand local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship."

Jessica Zweig: And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth.

Jessica Zweig: It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch. Bobbi Rebell: When you look back were there red flags that you should have spotted in the relationship, in the business in terms of the skills that you both brought?

Jessica Zweig: From day one. I mean, there were massive red flags. I think I realized three months in just how different we were but we were young and we were so naive and we both really loved this business. This magazine Cheeky was our baby. And so I didn't want to give it up and she didn't want to give it up and at the core there was a magic connection with us. We wouldn't have created what we created if there wasn't that synergistic spark. And we both loved each other to a degree which was what made it so difficult.

Jessica Zweig: But there were red flags and it was honestly one of the most toxic relationships of my life. I mean, we were together for seven years and we were water and vinegar. We were just totally different people. And I'm not saying I was better or she was worse, we were just different. I've come to so much peace and love and honestly forgiveness for myself first in the way that I showed up in that relationship as much as her and how she showed up in the relationship which I think has really been a huge key to me soaring in the last few years because I really did my own work.

Jessica Zweig: I think it's so easy to point fingers at people when they burn us or they hurt us or they come after us. There's that expression when you point one finger at someone, I mean do it, you're pointing three back at yourself. So you really do have to look at yourself in any sort of situation but when it comes to money it's especially loaded and I could still be angry, I could still be bitter, I could still be resentful. I don't feel any of those feelings. And it was the greatest learning lesson of my life. I applied all of those mistakes, all of those failures to simply be and simply be is so successful and it wouldn't have been unless I had that seven year chapter and run of making all of those mistakes.

Jessica Zweig: So, I think that everything happens for a reason and I feel like the debt and the brokenness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would have if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. So, everything happens for a reason and divine order. It's happening for you not to you even though it can really feel the opposite in the moment. I wouldn't be who I am without that business and that failure.

Bobbi Rebell: Can you me a specific example of something that happened that highlighted your differences? It doesn't have to be your biggest fight or something but something especially money related that you just never agreed on.

Jessica Zweig:I think we were both pretty irresponsible with the way we spent the business's money. I really wanted to grow it and scale it and exit. I wanted to be that type of entrepreneur and she wanted it to be a more lifestyle business. If you're going to go into business with anyone whether it's a business partner or someone on your team or your leadership team to really understand those nuances and get everyone on the same page. Because it sets the foundation for the type of business and the rate in which you want to grow and how you want to operate and who you want to do business with so, so much. And we just didn't have the skills. We were so young. We didn't have the tools to talk about money and business at that level. We were green as grass. So, of course it netted out the way that we netted out. And we also were really done when we opened up our credit cards. She was the personal guarantor on the credit cards. It was just mistake, after mistake, after mistake.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. I love that you're talking about the fact that it is so hard to talk about money and it sounds like you guys didn't have a lot of talks about money and how you were going to structure your firm and how you were going to fund it before you started it. What is the lesson for our listeners as we put it all in context?

Jessica Zweig: Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken and I think actually way, way up and make the right decision to partner with the right people in the first place. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page. And yet money makes people funny no matter what and so you really have to recognize that in yourself and in the others and bring as much consciousness and integrity to those kinds of negotiations, conversations, whatnot.

Bobbi Rebell: I could talk to you forever about this but I want to get your everyday money tip because it's something that I am already implementing for 2021 and that is having accountability, having an accountability partner. Talk about that.

Jessica Zweig: Yeah. So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Jessica Zweig: And so, I brought in my husband who is a financial advisor, as well as you are. And his business had kind of slowed down, he couldn't go out and network, we were quarantining. And he's like, "Jess, I'll help you with the PPP." He took one look at my finance team and was like, "Dude, I can do this better." And so I fired my finance team and I hired my husband. And my husband and I have always obviously been partners and accountable to each other because we're married but bringing him into my business...

Jessica Zweig: He's now my CFO, he helps me run the shop, saving money, ensuring that our P and L's are always balanced, making sure we're net profitable. Having someone that I trust, obviously I trust no one more than my own husband but he has really allowed me to fly as the CEO because I know that he's got things covered. And we operate like a legit finance CFO to CEO. We take weekly meetings. He has an agenda. We run through every money in money out, hiring, investments, savings. We don't have any debt in our business. It's a really powerful person, obviously it's my own husband. But if you can have someone to pulse check you, to support you, to believe in you, to honestly be able to see the forest from the trees more than you can in your own project or business or money endeavor that is so key.

Jessica Zweig: And then another thing that I have done that has really allowed me to get out of debt and save money and feel really, really peaceful and abundant and my husband has helped me with this is we've set up an account. I call it my island account and it's a bank account we can only put money in. And if I needed to take money out I'd have to drive all the way across town in the worst hours, whatever. It's my island account. I can only send money to it, it can only grow. And I'm stacking my cheddar as my accountant once told me and my husband helps me ensure that money is being sent to that account every single month and that we're totally able to send that level of money over to that account and that's really grown our savings. My husband and I sleep well at night because of it.

Jessica Zweig: And so those are the key hacks that having my husband and having that account has changed honestly my financial wellbeing more than my finances but more of my financial wellbeing, which I think is key to vibrating at that level of abundance and attracting more.

Bobbi Rebell: That's such great advice. There's also a lot more great advice and I'm picking up your book now even though I know we're on audio and your book, okay I'm going to read the title Be, with a period, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. And I love the yellow cover. Yellow became one of your themes in the book so it transcends so much about you and your sunny personality. Tell us briefly about the book.

Jessica Zweig: So the book is a personal branding book. It's going to walk you through my trademark methodology of how to build your platform, the platform of you. Whether you work for yourself, or you work for someone else, or you want to one day work for yourself, having an understanding of what makes you you is an invaluable asset that you can take with you no matter what your job title is. That's number one. It's going to teach you tactically step-by-step how to do that from messaging, to strategy, to content, to social media, to PR.

Jessica Zweig: However, it is a personal empowerment book in fact disguised as a business book. Because I think at the core most people feel afraid to do that and to put themselves out there. And I say that my book is the permission slip and the reminder that you are worthy to be seen and to shine and to have everything you ever want. And it's my own journey in fact as well and my uncovering that truth for myself. And so, I'm right along with you throughout the whole book and you're going to take away so much tactical knowledge but at the end of the day I hope it inspires people to stop playing small and stop apologizing for their authentic amazingness. And that's what my book Be is about.

Bobbi Rebell: One of the recommendations in the book is to keep your social media and all of your public identifying names, et cetera, very consistent. So let's end with you telling us where people can find you on all of the social media because I know you keep it easy.

Jessica Zweig: I walk the talk as I say I drink my own Kool-Aid. So yes I am at Jessica Zweig on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, jessicazweig.com. You can also go to simplybeagency.com which is my company's website and find me. I'm really, really, really easy to find. I'm out there. So please come and say hi.

Bobbi Rebell: Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me. This was amazing.

Bobbi Rebell: Here we go my friends Financial Grownup tip number one, some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships like Jessica, and like Jessica they use the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. This past week the dating app Bumble went public and its founder Whitney Wolfe-Herd started Bumble in 2014 after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder where she was a co-founder after a breakup with another co-founder. And she's talked about it a lot, it was a toxic relationship for sure. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and worth over a billion dollars. What a great story.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup tip number two, so many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic in part because it feels like no one's watching. I mean, after all we can and do literally work in our pajamas, certainly the off-camera part. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time, get an accountability partner like Jessica. Get someone who will be committed to you and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren't doing that well break up fast and find another accountability partner who's a better fit. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy but this more quiet time will come to an end and the opportunity to get your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste.

Bobbi Rebell: One way to get motivated, get out of those PJ's. Realistically, I know we aren't getting dressed up but have some fun with your pandemic wardrobe. That's what I know I needed when I came up with a concept for Grownup Gear it is all about celebrating wherever we are in our journey to being grown ups which never really ends let's be honest. Check out the designs on my website, bobbirebell.com. Click on shop or just go directly to grownupgear.com. And please be in touch. DM me what you want more of on this podcast. I love your feedback. I put discount codes for Grownup Gear on my Instagram, which by the way is Bobbi Rebell one. And we did just start a Grownup Gear Instagram. We don't have a lot of followers so please come check it out. That's at @GrownupGear on Instagram.

Bobbi Rebell: So big thanks to Jessica Zweig, author of Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing You Self-Worth and Your Net Worth By Simply Being Yourself. Everyone check out the book and thanks again to Jessica for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Gamestop's meteoric rise and fall, and the roles Reddit, Hedge Funds, and Robinhood played in it, have many lessons for financial grownups. Bobbi explains what happened, and reveals what new data is showing that many news reports initially got wrong. 

In this episode, you will learn:

-What actually happened?

- Why did Gamestop stock surge?

-How does short selling work?

-What goes on in the online forums (like reddit’s Wall Street Bets)?

-What is a short squeeze?

-How FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) played into things.

-Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

-Who got hurt and why?

-What did we learn from this?

Takeaways:

#1 - While everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

#2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

#3 -Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

This is going to be a special solo episode and we are going to talk about the Gamestop phenemonon that happened recently that has gotten a lot of you interested in how the stock market works, how the companies that hold the money you invest in stocks work, and most of all, how you can make money by buying stocks. 

Here on the financial grownups podcast we normally share money stories that impacted our lives and the lessons from them, or tips and tricks to improve your financial situation but today we’re breaking format because what happened recently with Gamestop, and a few other stocks, and Robinhood and some other brokerage firms really changed the game for a lot of people. 

Here’s what we are going to cover:

What actually happened- why did Gamestop (which is a company that wasn’t doing well). suddenly have a surging stock?

How does short selling work?

What goes on in the online forums, like reddit’s Wall Street Bets?

What is a short squeeze?

FOMO- fear of missing out- how that played into things…

Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

Who got hurt and why?

What did we learn?

So let’s start with what happened. Gamestop’s actual business, which is primarily selling video games in brick and mortar retail stores, was not doing well. So a lot of professional investors, including hedge funds, were betting against it, doing something called short selling. And by the way- this happened recently with a few stocks but we’re just going to talk about Gamestop here. 

What is short selling. Essentially- the investor goes to the broker and borrows the stock. They turn around and sell that stock to someone else. So they don’t have the stock, but they do have to return it to the broker. The goal is for the stock to go down between the time they sold it to someone else, and the time they have to buy it back, to return it back to the broker who lent it to them. Short selling is super risky because if the stock goes up- it absolutely has to be bought to give back to the broker. Since there is no limit to how high a stock can go, there is no limit to how much the short seller can lose. In other words- don’t go there unless you really know what you are doing. 

While this was happening, the stock started getting talked about on reddit, in particular on a page called Wall Street bets. They noticed that the stock was heavily shorted- and that there was a big change at Gamestop- some new members of the board. One in particular, Chewy Co-founder Ryan Cohen got noticed because he had a lot of digital experience- something Gamestop really needed. That combination got the Wall Street Bets folks to pile into the stock and cause it to rally. 

Next topic: The short Squeeze. Remember all those Wall Street professionals that had shorted the stock? As the stock rose, they were seeing that the price to re-buy the stock they had shorted was skyrocketing and they had to cover their bets.. by buying the stock… which set in motion this seemingly accelerating rise in Gamestop stock-

Then came the FOMO- fear of missing out. As news reports of this were coming out, more and more people wanted in on the action, and things started to get out of hand. Plus the whole thing took on a larger meaning because of media reports that  all these little guys banding together- there were more than 5 million folks on that reddit page- and the word was they were beating these big professional hedge funds. Everyone was talking about it. 

Now let’s talk about the brokerage firms and one in particular that gets a lot of attention: Robinhood. Amateur investors can go on Robinhood and trade for free. Robinhood has had it’s share of controversy in the past, but that’s a whole other podcast. In this case, Robinhood started to get worried- and, citing extreme volatility stopped allowing it’s customers to buy the stock- though they could still sell it. So keep in mind, Robinhood’s customers are generally individuals. The professional investors who were not dependent on Robinhood could keep buying and selling. The optics were not good. Some people thought they were doing it to protect the Wall Street pro’s from losing too much money. Politicians cried foul, and people lawyered up. 

As the dust settles - there is another dramatic twist. University of Chicago law professor Todd Henderson, says the pros saw what was happening and basically piggy backed on the little guys. 

He studied the data from that time. And while there was a burst of retail activity-  he says in a cnbc piece- eventually it was actually the big guys- against the other big guys. According to Henderson, hedge funds purchased stock and held it. This created fewer shares for short sellers to borrow in the market, and that squeezed the number of possible shares available to be loaned, making it harder for short sellers to bet against the stock. The desperate short-sellers needed to find new shares to borrow but supply got constricted.. If you are not following at this point- that’s kind of the point. It’s complicated. And it is not for amateurs. 

And that brings us to who got hurt and why. So yes, hedge funds and one in particular got hurt. As I write this, Gamestop’s gains have almost all disappeared, so a lot of people who bought it will likely sell it for a big loss. And they probably won’t talk about it. Especially with all the bragging going on about how much their friends and family made on the rise up- assuming they sold it at a profit. FOMO can cost you. 

So finally - what are the lessons to take away from all this?

Lesson #1 - while everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

Lesson #2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

Lesson #3 Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

As for my take, it’s never a good feeling to know that many well meaning people took risks they didn’t understand and lost money, I am glad that this got so many non-investors interested in learning more about the stock market. And even though that interest was motivated by momentum driven trading, my hope is that eventually that will evolve into learning about thoughtful, intentional and strategic investing, that will help all of us reach out grownup financial goals. 

Thanks everyone for joining me- for more money tips and advice- plus lots of giveaways please go to my website bobbirebell.com and sign up for the grownup list. 

I love bringing you this podcast and it is and always will be free to you but there are a number of ways that you can support the show if you enjoy it. 

Number one- tell a friend about it. 

Number two- take a screenshot and share on social media

Number three- write a review on apple podcasts

And finally- do a little responsible shopping on my grownupgear.com website. It’s got t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags and more- all tied to being grownups. The products make great gifts, for friends, family and co-workers, and even for yourself. 

Thanks everyone, for joining me and for being financial grownups. 

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn-https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbirebellkaufman

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

When Jessica Goodman landed a book deal, and later a TV deal for her debut novel “They Wish They Were us” many people though she would go full time on her side-hustle. But Goodman says that was never the plan, and explains why and how she blends the finances and demands of her two dream jobs.

In Jessica’s Money Story she shares:

-How she started writing her e first book, “They Wish They Were Us.”after having the idea for years.

-How she researched what is involved in selling a book to a publisher, including getting an agent

-How she kept her employer, Cosmopolitan Magazine informed and supportive of her book writing side hustle

-How an advance works for an author, including the tax implications

-What she wishes she knew about being an author and how much they are paid before she wrote and sold the book

-How she was able to adapt her schedule to both her full time job at Cosmopolitan Magazine, and writing books

-What you need to know about how a full time job works compared to being a self-employed author, including quarterly taxes

-When you should think about bringing in an accountant.

In Jessica’s Money Lesson you will learn:

-Why and how you should re-evaluate the way you think about money

-The best strategies to manage money when you are paid inconsistently in chunks

-How she and her partner adapted their spending during the pandemic

-How to resist it when people who care about you give you bad financial advice

Jessica’s Money Tip:

-Even if you live in a small space it can pay to buy in bulk during quarantine (and maybe after!)

-Think of non-traditional items that you would not have used as much at home- like buying wine by the case

-Tips about ordering groceries online including having the heaviest items delivered

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. If you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Get a system going and understand that you might miss out on things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Episode Links:

• Jessica’s website - https://www.goodmanjessica.com/

• Buy They Wish They Were Us

• Pre-Order They’ll Never Catch Us

Follow Jessica!

• Instagram - @jessicagoodman

• Twitter - @jessgood

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

  
  Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Full transcript of show:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees. Much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Jessica Goodman:

When I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. You publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey friends, do you have a passion project or a side hustle? One you dream of doing full time one day and maybe getting to ditch that day job? Well, Cosmopolitan's Jessica Goodman had a passion project that she was quietly working on for years. And that was to be an author. Her debut novel, a murder mystery set in an elite private school called They Wish They Were Us ended up being such a hit that it is now being made into a TV series, starring Halsey and Euphoria's Sydney Sweeney. Fast-forward and Jessica has now scored a book for a second novel that is already coming out this summer. So all systems go on the dream career, right? Well, not so fast. To the surprise of quite a few people in her life, rather than ditch, she doubled down, staying on a Cosmopolitan magazine where she is currently the op-ed editor.

Bobbi Rebell:

In our interview, Jessica shares why she is sticking with the day job, goes through exactly how she manages her time and gets candid about what she wishes she knew about before diving into the book business, including, well, a lot of tech stuff. For those of you new to the Financial Grownup Podcast, welcome. I'm so glad that you are here. We talk with financial grownups here about money stories that impacted their lives and the lessons learned from those stories. We also ask them to bring along an everyday money tip that we can put to work right away. Spoiler alert. Jessica's has to do with how she and her partner buy their wine. So stay tuned for her tip on that. And with that, let's get to this week's interview. Here is Cosmo op-ed editor and author of They Wish They Were Us, Jessica Goodman.

Bobbi Rebell:

Jessica Goodman, I'm so excited to finally have you on the show. You are definitely a financial grownup. Welcome.

Jessica Goodman:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

And happy 2021, a year when your second, soon to be bestseller is going to be released. Before we get into your money story, tell us a little bit about each of your books just briefly.

Jessica Goodman:

So my first book, They Wish They Were Us came out in August and it is a young adult thriller that follows a high school senior, Jill Newman, who is in a very exclusive society within her Long Island prep school. And at the beginning of the book, she is reflecting on the fact that her best friend died when she was a freshman and she was also part of this society. And soon after the book begins, she starts getting text messages that say that her best friend Shayla didn't die the way that everybody thinks she did. And so what follows is kind of a whodunit, murder mystery set in this very exclusive prep school. And it's really an exploration of privilege and friendship and peer pressure. And I kind of like to say that it's like Gossip Girl meets Pretty Little Liars, meets A Secret History. It's really fun. And it's being adapted into a TV series, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey. So if those people are on your brain, I think you might enjoy.

Jessica Goodman:

And then I also have a new book coming out this summer. It's called, They'll Never Catch Us. It's currently available for pre-order wherever books are sold. And it is also a young adult thriller about two super competitive sisters who run cross country. And they're both trying to be the best on their team and in the state. And they threaten to kind of lose the number one and two spots when a new girl comes to town. And then soon after she arrives, she also disappears. And everybody in the town begins to suspect that the sisters had something to do with it. So that's where my brain has been for the past couple of months, which is really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is really exciting. What's amazing to me, and I think our listeners will really enjoy hearing about this is while you are doing this, this is actually really a side hustle to your primary job. You have been in a number of different positions at Cosmopolitan magazine. You're currently the op-ed editor. Did I get that right?

Jessica Goodman:

You did. And I'm very impressed that you didn't trip up over the ed editor because I always do when I say it out loud and I have to be like, oh wait, no, this is my job.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is your job now, you are still working there with one book out, another one on the way. So for your money story, I've asked you to kind of talk about how that happened, especially the money-related decisions that you had to make along the way to make this happen. Having a very full-time job at Cosmo. And then on the side, writing this book. It was a lot of choices you had to make I would say. Tell us your money story.

Jessica Goodman:

Definitely. Yeah, so many choices along the way. When I started writing the first book, They Wish They Were Us. And I really started writing it in earnest after having kind of dabbled with it for many years. In earnest, I started working on it in like 2015, 2016. I would say. I didn't get to the point where I thought I could actually sell it and be a professional author until maybe like 2018. And that's when I got connected with my agent and we started working towards being able to sell it. But I did a lot of research into how one becomes an author. I was literally Googling like, how do you publish a book? Like, how do you find an agent? Like what is a book advance? Like all of these kinds of really basic questions that I just had no idea what it was all about.

Jessica Goodman:

And I basically found out that it's really, really, really difficult to publish and sell a book. And that be your sole income or your sole career, like one book basically. And so it was never really an option for me to quit my ... Like I never thought about quitting my jobs in journalism while I was trying to sell the book. So it was always just like, how can I make both of these dreams come true at the same time? And so we sold the book, They Wish They Were Us, in the fall of 2018. And we got an advance, which is what they call the income that you make from selling your book. And publishers usually split it up into a few big chunks. For mine, it was like, I got a chunk of money when I signed the contract, a chunk of money when I turned in the book and then a chunk of money when the book came out. And when, at least when I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. It's like you publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case. And it's certainly like a fantastic thing to have of course, but it's not the kind of financial gains that I originally thought it would be. And I think that a lot of people think about when they think of like someone getting a book advance. Like I said, it was always like a no-brainer that I would keep my job, but I really had to learn how to prioritize both jobs to be able to do them well. So my schedule when I'm being my best self is that I write in the morning before work, usually from seven to nine. And then I do my job from ten to whenever. And then I write on the weekends as well. It's certainly hard at some points, especially at my job at Cosmo, I cover the news, especially like elections and special elections and anything relating to, like having to do with politics. So obviously this past year was hard to balance everything.

Bobbi Rebell:

Were you open with your bosses about these efforts, or was it something you kept private?

Jessica Goodman:

When the book deal actually happened, I went in and told my boss, hey, I just want to give you a heads up that like this happened and it's not going to affect the work that I do here. Like, I really wanted to make sure that they knew that I wasn't about to quit basically, that I was just like, this is just something that I'm doing for myself and my personal dreams. But like, it's not going to affect my work or my productivity here. And I just wanted to give you like a courtesy heads up basically. And everybody was really supportive and they have been really supportive of the book. And so it's been lovely honestly, but I definitely have heard some horror stories at other companies. But I think when you work in a field that's somewhat like adjacent to whatever your side hustle is, it does make it a little bit easier for people to understand why you might be doing something or how it won't interfere with your responsibilities.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you wish you knew in terms of the book business and the financial aspects of it? What do you wish you knew ahead of time? You mentioned that you get the bulk payments and you kind of had this idea as a child that authors become millionaires.

Jessica Goodman:

Yeah, I think something that I definitely wish that I knew was like taxes. Like I think if you're like me and you've really only had a job that you get a salary and benefits from your employer, it's really difficult to self-manage money that comes in chunks, whether you're a freelance writer or you're your own boss and you're not part of like a company. I think it's really difficult to know things like, oh, I have to pay quarterly taxes on this income. Or like, oh, I don't know how much money to put aside from this advanced check that I got, because that advance doesn't reflect the taxes I need to pay on it. So I ended up working with an accountant because I had no idea how to navigate this on my own. And I wanted to make sure that I was doing everything by the book.

Jessica Goodman:

And I wasn't going to get dinged at the end of the fiscal year because I have heard horror stories of people getting, like a $100,000 of their advance, spending it, and then not realizing that they needed to pay however many tens of thousands of dollars of taxes on that. And like, oh my God, what a nightmare. Or even realizing that I had to pay quarterly taxes on like freelance income was the real shock to me. So I got an accountant kind of like late in the game, I would say. And I wish I had got one, like even before the first check came in to like really help me navigate that.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson for our listeners, from this story? What's your advice to people thinking about whether it's writing a novel or any kind of side hustle where they're going to have to hold on to their job?

Jessica Goodman:

I think for me, it was really reevaluating the way that I thought about money. Like I think after having been in jobs where like I got a salary check every other week. That was like, okay, like I know what my monthly expenses are. I know how much my rent is. I know how much my utilities are. Like, I know how much I spend on groceries. Like all that stuff that they tell you. And I knew how to manage that money. Like I knew how much I might be able to save, how much I would need to pay my credit card bill, like all this stuff. But when you get these like big chunks of money, or even just smaller chunks of money from like freelance gigs or whatever, I think it can feel really tempting to just kind of spend it immediately. Even if you're the type of person who is really invested in saving and planning for your future, I think it's hard to conceptualize like how much money you might need for stuff. And especially this year, when I wasn't interested in spending a lot of money at all, based on the kind of times we're in, I splurged on a few things and those things I was thinking about them before we hopped on the call. Those are the things that I really splurged on this year where I turned 30 and I bought myself $80 worth of oysters that were shipped from Cape Cod and an oyster shucker. And that's how I spent my 30th birthday with my partner. We shucked like 50 oysters and save the additional, however many for the next day. And it was such a treat and it was so much fun and something that I'll remember forever. And I bought myself a $90 tie dyed sweatsuit because I am a millennial and on Instagram and it just looked really cozy. And those were like my two big splurges of the year.

Jessica Goodman:

And I know a lot of people, when they get like a book advancer or kind of achieve these really big milestones, they're like, I'm going to buy myself a really expensive piece of jewelry or a fancy handbag, or even like house or whatever. And I mean, I think all of those things are fantastic, but for me, the lesson for me, the lesson here was like, all right, I don't really have anything that I'm ready to splurge on that big right now. I really want to like, save all of this money as much as I can. And those are the things I'm going to splurge on, like oysters and a tie dyed sweatsuit. And knowing that like my big splurge might come later. Like I am saving up to buy a house with my partner. And I think that like my book advance will of course go towards that.

Jessica Goodman:

But realizing that like, I didn't need to spend it all right away I think was a huge revelation, especially because so many people were like, what are you going to treat yourself to? Like your book just came out, like, what are you going to do to mark the occasion? And I didn't really do that much because it just didn't feel right for me. Those were my splurges.

Bobbi Rebell:

I love it. I love the idea of oysters. So tell us your everyday money tip.

Jessica Goodman:

Oh yes. Okay. So this is one that I really got to be obsessed with during the pandemic. Like I am not the type of person that should or would traditionally buy in bulk. Like I live with one other person. We live in a one bedroom apartment. It's very small. We don't have a lot of storage space, but this year I became the kind of person that buys in bulk. Obviously, so many people are doing this during the pandemic, but I don't think I really realized how much you actually save when you buy in bulk and you know what you're going to use in those bulk quantities. And I think the pandemic has really shown people like what they actually use and what is actually important to them. And so for us, like there were a few things that really changed the way I thought about this. One was I started doing like subscribe and save Amazon paper towels and toilet paper. And actually I had done this pre run out of toilet paper in like March moment. So I pat myself on the back for knowing that would be a thing.

Jessica Goodman:

But I think I did the math recently. And it was like if I were to buy a few rolls every time I went to the grocery store, I would spend nearly twice the amount that I do just doing subscribe and save and having them shipped directly to my house. And even though they just sit in boxes in like a corner of our apartment. Because again, small one bedroom apartment, I think it's like totally worth it for us. And the other way that I found this to be really useful was we started buying our wine in cases, which a year ago I would have said like, are you okay? Like what's going on here?

Jessica Goodman:

But my local wine shop, they started offering a 15% discount if you bought a case of wine. And so we basically did the math and we were like, well, we'd be losing money if we didn't do this. And we don't go through them that quickly. I mean, it's no brainer how much money you save. We started looking for ways that you could buy in bulk and save like that. Like the fancy coffee shop near us. If you buy beans in bulk, it's like the same thing. And all these companies now do like subscribe and save membership things, like there's so many coffee ones where like every week they'll send you a bag of beans or whatever. And I think like looking for those has really been super helpful for us and certainly cut down on how we spend.

Jessica Goodman:

The other thing about like this buying in bulk grocery shopping thing is I heard this tip from Carla Lalli Music who used to work at Bon Appetit and now is she's like a chef home cook person on Instagram and has like a fantastic cookbook. But her big tip was always like, if you're ordering groceries, like order all the heavy stuff that's going to be delivered to your apartment. So you don't have to carry stuff, especially in an apartment. And that has been so helpful to me too, where it's like, every time I do like a big shop online or Instacart or Whole Foods or whatever, I get like 10 cans of beans, because like, I don't want to carry that. Or like four jugs of olive oil or like four twelve packs of seltzer because yes, you're buying in bulk. And sometimes you can get discounts that way, but also like who wants to carry that stuff home?

Bobbi Rebell:

Definitely good to always make your life easier. Especially if you are paying those fees to have it delivered. You want to get the most out of that delivery fee. Jessica, thank you so much for being with us, tell us where people can find out more about you. We know your books are available everywhere. We don't know when is the TV series coming.

Jessica Goodman:

TBD on the TV series, but you can stay up to date with all of that info on my Instagram, which is @JessicaGoodman or Twitter @JessGood. And I also have a website goodmanjessica.com. Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. My friends let's do this. Financial Grownup tip number one, Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. And by the way, if you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.Financial Grownup tip number two, get a system going and understand that you might miss things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Bobbi Rebell:

I had so much fun talking with Jessica and her book was really, really a page turner. As I mentioned, it is a murder mystery. And for the record, I really was totally fooled. I didn't see the twists and turns coming. One thing that I've really loved during our forced stayed home time during this pandemic has been catching up on reading fiction and really getting lost in books. We're going to be giving away a few signed copies of Jessica's book to that end so please make sure you are on the Grownup list ASAP so you don't miss that. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you can sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell:

Now while you are there, please check out my big project that I have been working on. I am so excited to see what you guys think. It is the new Grownup Gear Shop. It's a passion project of mine, and I hope you guys will all support it. Podcasts listeners can get 10% off if you use the code “Jessica” within one week of this episode dropping. So just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you'll see the word shop, click on there. Check it out. I hope you guys like it. Big thanks to author Jessica Goodman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Author Ron Lieber returns to the Financial Grownup podcast to preview his new book "The Price You Pay for College”and share tips on the best ways to control college costs, including debunking some big myths about why college is so expensive and who gets how much aid, and why. 

Tip #1:

There is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called Merit Aid. Rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can. Figure out whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes. You have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Tip #2

You can appeal the financial aid package you receive from these colleges. The need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. You may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need-based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid. That's going to give you the best chance of success.

Tip #3

Save the “right” way. There's this idea out there that you need to make a choice between saving for your retirement and saving for college for your kids. You can do both. Borrowing for college may not be for some families. This idea also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time. The financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Tip #4

You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children. We do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. You don't get, make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old. So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Tip #5

What we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, our spouses, or even our exes. We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt. The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us. We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Full Transcript of Episode:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works.

Bobbi Rebell:

You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit, split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com. Financial grownup guide, five things you can control about the price you pay for college with author Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of, 'How To Be a Financial Grownup.' But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hello, my friends, for all our talk about budgeting, spending, penny pinching in some cases, looking at the prices of everything we buy. Most of us, our parents, our children, friends, we buy one really big ticket item that we shop for without actually getting to see the real price that we will pay. I am of course, talking about college. And while yes, we can see the full retail price on many university's websites, the majority of us actually, aren't going to pay that price.

Bobbi Rebell:

In fact, I learned in Ron Lieber's new book, "The Price You Pay for College" that only 11% pay that price. So then the question is how much of a discount can we get, and how is that decided? Welcome everyone here on the Financial Grownup podcast, we talk about money issues that matter to us as we move through adulthood and college certainly qualifies.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber, the New York Times Your Money Columnist, who was first on the podcast in 2018, talking about how he got into school is now back to give us a peek at his very grownup book, "The Price You Pay for College," an entirely new roadmap for the biggest financial decision your family will ever make. Yeah, that's the truth. Like so much of our lives these days, there are lot of things that we can't control. So I asked Ron to tell us what we can control, and he did a little myth-busting along the way. Here is Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber welcome back to the podcast and congratulations on your new book, "The Price You Pay for College."

Ron Lieber:
It's great to be back. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

What inspired this book before we get into your tips about the things that we can control about the price that we all pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, this book is both personal and professional. It's personal because, I have a 15 year-old ninth grader and a five-year-old kindergartener. I live in New York city with extremely high costs and it's a two journalist household. So we're not exactly rolling at it. So this is going to be hard for our daughters to have the same kinds of choices that my wife and I had albeit for me with a whole bunch of need-based financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

So it's personal, but it's also professional because readers kept getting in touch and expressing marvel, but also alarm at the fact that the rack rate for the most expensive colleges in the country had passed $300,000 for four years and even the flagship state universities.

Ron Lieber:

Many of them are now more than a hundred grand for four years. So you've got a $200,000 gap between them and these readers were saying to me, "Hey, we live in the era of big data, where's the big dataset that explains why NYU is $200,000 better than SUNY Binghamton." I did not know and it felt like a new question to me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well you answer a lot of the questions in the book? And unfortunately there is a lot about this process that we simply cannot control, but I want to focus for our grownup audience on the things that we can control. And we've got a list of a few things we're going to go through. What is the first one? What can we control when it comes to the price we pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, you can control what you know, right? You can learn how the system works. One of the things that continues to amaze me is the number of sophisticated people who are extremely successful in their own chosen fields of employment who show up in my inbox or in my text messages in March or April of their child's senior year in high school.

Ron Lieber:

And they have no idea what has hit them. They have no idea that there is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called merit aid. And that rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can.

Bobbi Rebell:

And that's kind of one of the reasons why college has gotten so expensive in fact, is that it's become the sort of vicious cycle.

Ron Lieber:

One of the things that's made it also complicated for the people who run these schools, it's not just the pricing wars going on in the background, although that certainly helps drive down revenue and the net tuition revenue per student. But one of the things that we can't control as individuals and the schools have a lot of trouble controlling, is that people good ones, well trained people cost money, right?

Ron Lieber:

Professors spend, a minimum of five years in graduate training and Economics 101 suggests that, people who need to spend that long learning and training ought to be compensated at an above average rate. There are also more administrators than there used to be for every 1000 undergraduates. But that's mostly because we like it that way, right?

Ron Lieber:

We want disabled kids to have access. We want kids with mental health issues to have access. We want there to be a good counseling center on all of that. So, we get the administrators, we demand in the marketplace. But it is not cheap to run these places and if we made them more efficient, we might not like the result.

Bobbi Rebell:

So for parents that want merit aid, how can we control merit aid and how much we can get for our child or for kids going to college, if you're a teenager listening to this?

Ron Lieber:

Well, the first thing you have to be able to figure out is whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes.

Ron Lieber:

I think of schools like, Oberlin or Connecticut College, relatively Tony Brand’s private schools. A lot of fancy kids go there. They don't really want to talk about this. They're ashamed that they've got to, get in there and slug it out in the marketplace.

Ron Lieber:

And so you have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts.

Bobbi Rebell:

Another thing I was shocked about that you talk about in your book that people can control is if they do get a financial aid package, they can appeal it.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. There are a lot of people who don't know that this is the case as well. And it gets a little messy, right? Because the need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. But the merit aid awards come from admissions. So depending on which awards you have, you may need to file your appeal to different people.

Ron Lieber:

And then when you do, you may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need- based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

That's going to give you the best chance of success. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's get into other things that people can control. There's a lot of myths about how to save, where to save and how much to save to get the best opportunity in terms of support from the college. What should people be doing? What can they control there?

Ron Lieber:

Well, let's go through a couple of the maxims here that are repeated as truths in financial planning and in personal finance, journalism, by people who ought to know better that are not actually true. First of all, there's this idea out there that if you need to make a choice between saving for retirement and saving for college, you should save for retirement because you can't borrow for retirement. That implies a couple of things.

Ron Lieber:

First of all, that borrowing for college is necessarily and always a good idea, and it may not be for some families. But it also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home.

Ron Lieber:

So, I hate things that are presented as maxims. They're actually based in factual inaccuracies. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time.

Ron Lieber:

So there's a whole bunch of problems with this. I mean, first of all, the financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. And let me also say this, right?

Ron Lieber:

I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Bobbi Rebell:

And speaking of your kids, that's also something you can control. You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. Look, I mean, we do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. That's not how it works when this thing that they are chasing costs today, as much as $325,000 for University of Chicago at the rack rate, right? You don't get to make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old.

Ron Lieber:

So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Bobbi Rebell:

And the final thing I want to talk about is our own emotions. There's the cliche, "Keeping up with the Joneses" and everyone says, "Oh, I just want what's best for my child." But people get pretty emotional. This for many parents, it's a reflection on, it's almost like, did they get an A+ in parenting, depending on where their child goes to school. They want that sticker on the car, right?

Ron Lieber:

I am so glad you bring this up. Obviously the students have a tendency to be emotional. They're getting ready to leave home, they feel like it's competitive. They want to be able to hold their head up in the community. They want what they want and that's normal for adolescents.

Ron Lieber:

But what we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, with our spouses if we have one, with our exes, if we have some of those about the feelings that all of this invokes and evokes, right? We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt, right? The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us.

Ron Lieber:

And so therefore we should borrow $150,000 per kid, right? We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Bobbi Rebell:

Very interesting. And it's true in schools, one of the myths that you dispel in the book is that schools, they have all these things you joke about the lazy river and the rock climbing wall. I mean, that is something that is eye candy for students. That's not the reason that schools are so expensive by the way.

Ron Lieber:

No, I mean, these are really fun things to go gawk at and talk about and old school types will snicker and think that everything's gone to rot. But I don't blame the schools for this. I mean, these 18 year olds want to continue to live in the manner to which they become accustomed.

Ron Lieber:

And all of a sudden in a generation we've gone from, having a VCR in your room and a private phone line, and your own camcorder, being a luxury to everybody walking around with this little rectangle that like does all of those things and then some, right?

Ron Lieber:

We just have a way higher standard of living that we used to. And so it doesn't surprise me that a bunch of institutions would want to raise the quality of the lived experience for their undergraduates. I would argue that this is market driven. It's not driven by the institutions and it doesn't actually cost a ton. Again, it's the people who cost money at the schools, not the amenities.

Bobbi Rebell:

Right. And that's a big, big myth that you bust in the book. I loved your book. I hope lots of people pick it up because it is eye-opening about so many things that I thought were true that are not true like that last example. Ron, where can people be in touch with you?

Ron Lieber:

Yeah, I am itching to get back out on the road again, but it's probably not going to happen until November at the earliest. So I will be all over the internet. The best way to catch up with me is to sign up for my newsletter, which I promise I don't send out all that often. But if you go to ronlieber.com and just drop your first name and your email address in there, you can keep up with me and I will continue to send notes and notices about where I will be appearing via zoom. And I'm on all the usual social channels @RonLieber.

Bobbi Rebell:
So wonderful. Thank you so much.

Ron Lieber:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay my friends. I was pretty surprised about how little at a relative basis, all those luxuries amenities costs, but I guess overall, it is a good thing that the money is going in large part to educators. Right? I would love to hear about your experiences with paying for college. You can DM me at @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, @BobbiRebell on Twitter, and please join the grownup list.

Bobbi Rebell:

We share recommendations of books, podcasts, and other fun things to level up your grownup life, plus we are doing giveaways of books from the authors on the show and exclusive financial grownup merchandise. Just go to my website, Bobbirebell.com to sign up. Big thanks to, "The Price You Pay for College" author, Ron Lieber for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Author Erica Keswin returns to the Financial Grownup podcast to discuss her new book Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines Into Workplace Magic. Erica shares specific, free and low cost ways to use rituals to improve productivity, increase a sense of safety and belonging, as well as purpose both for work and for life.

Tip #1:

Begin and end with intention. Beginnings and endings are prime rituals real estate. So be aware of how you start and end your day, and do something that makes you feel most like you.

Tip #2:

Take breaks. We need to build in rituals to actually get up and move.

Tip #3:

Make sure that you're staying connected. We are all feeling isolated and lonely and we're really wired for connection. This may look like scheduling a phone call with a friend. We can build that ritual in once a week or once a month for us to stay connected.

Tip #4:

Give back. If there's ever a time to building a ritual around gratitude, it's 2021. I do believe it's something that many of us started in 2020 that we need to really focus on. There's a lot of data around the impact of gratitude on performance and how we feel in general.

Tip #5:

Build in some rituals to have fun. These days can feel long and heavy and just because it's 2021, that doesn’t mean the pandemic went away. So we need to build in some time for fun, some time for silliness and not feel guilty about it.

Get Erica’s new book, Rituals Roadmap, here

Get all of Erica’s books here

Full Show Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell :

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money, and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy.

Bobbi Rebell :

So, if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable, and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power. I know, I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have. Go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup Guide. Five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021 with author Erica Keswin. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Okay, my friends, if ever there was a time we really need to find ways to cope with chaos, total chaos, things we never thought could possibly happen, it is now. And so the timing could not be better to bring back my friend, Erica Keswin to give us some really powerful ways to use rituals, to help get a fresh start and really a better sense of control as we move into 2021, which so far has not been as boring as many of us had hoped it would be.

Bobbi Rebell :

Here in the Financial Grownup podcast we have two formats, one in which we share money stories and the lessons from those stories, but sometimes we like to mix things up. And we have something called Financial Grownup Guides, which focus on tips and strategies for you to live your best financial grownup life. And as Erica shared with me the details of her latest book, it was perfect for that. And even more so, given the events of early 2021.

Bobbi Rebell :

Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines Into Workplace Magic, got me thinking about the rituals I already have and brainstorming new ones to try out. And spoiler alert, not just for the workplace. Now, before I roll the interview, I also to invite everyone to join the Grownup List. We have amazing giveaways coming, including free books from our financial grownup authors. We're also building out some grownup merch, but it's not yet available for sale. You can only get it if you were on the Grownup List and win. Go to my website, bobbirebell.com to get on the List for free. We'll also leave a link in the show notes, and when you get the next newsletter, you will learn how to win the prizes.

Bobbi Rebell :

Speaking of show notes, don't feel you need to take notes on all of the great Intel Erica is going to share. We'll have it all for you in those show notes, which are available under the financial grownup dropdown again, on my website. Okay. I'm really excited for you guys to hear the interview here is Erica Keswin giving us some highlights of Rituals Roadmap. Erica, thanks for coming back to the Financial Grownup Podcast.

Erica Keswin :
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell :

Big congratulations on your next bestseller, Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines into Workplace Magic. You're going to be giving us five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021. But before we get there, first of all, tell us about the book a little bit. And then I'm going to ask you a couple of quick questions.

Erica Keswin :

Sure. I had a book in 2018 as you know because it was on your show called Bring Your Human to Work. And one of the things I realized after it came out that rituals are a tool to create a more human workplace, and to feel more connected. And I know we'll get into some of that. We can use rituals at home. We can use them at work. Right now, working home are pretty much the same thing, so they're even more important. But rituals are very accessible and there's something that we can all use in our lives. And one of the things I found over the last nine months is that they really do help us during turbulent times, especially now.

Bobbi Rebell :

Especially now, and as much as we turn the page and we're now in 2021, the reality is 2021 is likely to be full of so many surprises just as 2020 was. I want to quickly ask you a couple questions about the book and some things that you say in there that I think are particularly relevant to Financial Grownups. The first one is you say in there, the cost of rituals is minimal, but their value is priceless.

Erica Keswin :

Yes. When I started studying rituals, I came up with an equation called the three Ps. The three Ps of rituals. Rituals give us a sense of psychological safety and belonging. They give us an opportunity to connect to purpose. And if you add those two together, it equals performance. And so when I think about performance, it could be that rituals impact how our team feels more connected. It could be bottom line performance, but also performance in our personal lives, that when we have rituals in our lives, our cortisol, our stress goes down, our oxytocin, our feel good hormone goes up. We're more engaged at work. We're more engaged in life. And the book has tons of different studies and science and stories of how rituals impact our lives in really positive ways.

Bobbi Rebell :
And one thing I really enjoyed about the book is that there were a lot of specific examples of that. That we can sort of emulate in our own lives. You call rituals magic, expand a little bit on that.

Erica Keswin :

So people will say, "Well, what is a ritual?" To me, a great example is, if I'm lighting a candle, that may or may not be a ritual. If I'm sitting here lighting a candle because my lights went out, I'm just lighting a candle because I need light. A ritual is something that goes beyond its practical purpose. So if I light a candle every Friday at five o'clock to signify the transition from the workweek to the weekend, I'm almost elevating that act of lighting a candle.

Erica Keswin :

And again, it's not to give me light per se, but it does give me a sense of meaning and connection to myself and to what's going on around me. So that's really that magical element of bringing awareness and intention to what we do.

Bobbi Rebell :
And it's different from something like habits.

Erica Keswin :

Yes. I mean, I believe so. A ritual is something that if you missed it for a day or for a week, something would feel really, really off in your life. It could be if you meditate every morning, for me during the pandemic, we started quarantining on a Thursday I believe, and the following Tuesday I said, "You know what? Our family ritual is to have taco Tuesday, I'm going to do it." I saw the look on it, and my kids are older, they're they're teenagers, but the look on their faces and they were able to smell the same smell and the things that we did pre pandemic. And I was able to see firsthand the impact of maintaining some of those rituals, and how it gave them a sense of psychological safety and belonging.

Erica Keswin :

And rituals also create some order out of chaos. And so I think for everyone now, we need to think about how do we maintain some of our old rituals, but also think about, given that things are so different right now, what are new rituals that we also can add to our lives.

Bobbi Rebell :

Which leads us to the five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021 that you have brought to us.

Erica Keswin :

Great. Begin and end with intention. Beginnings and endings are what I call prime rituals real estate. So be aware of how you start your day, and do something that makes you feel most like you. It could be meditation, taking a few deep breaths or having coffee at Starbucks, which is as many people know my favorite ritual. So that's a really important place to start. It also could be how you end the day. It could be how you transition from work to home, especially when we're all doing that in basically one room. So, transition rituals are important as well.

Erica Keswin : Number two is take breaks. For me if I learned anything in 2020, it's that it's really hard to be in front of your computer all day. And so we need to build in rituals to actually get up and move. And a really fun ritual a woman just share with me recently, she calls 20 by 20 by 20. Every 20 minutes, she takes a 22nd break, 20 feet from her computer-

Bobbi Rebell : Oh I love that.

Erica Keswin :

... and stretches. And again, it's not a box check. It's this elevation of, I know this is important, it's giving me a moment, 20 seconds to connect to something outside of myself. So something that your listeners can try.

Bobbi Rebell :

Yeah. And I think that you wouldn't do that if you didn't have the ritual, because you would feel like if you were taking a break, you are interrupting your workflow and it's not going to help your productivity. But if you have it as a ritual, then that becomes something that you don't feel guilty about. In fact, you know that it's going to empower you to do better the rest of the way.

Erica Keswin :

Exactly. And it's something that you're looking forward to. And it would all of a sudden feel weird if all of a sudden three hours went by and you hadn't gotten up to do it.

Erica Keswin :

Number three is to make sure that you're staying connected. Whether you live alone or living with five other people as I'm doing right now, we are all feeling isolated and lonely and we're really wired for connection. And so, one of the things I've been doing as part of my rituals is to say, "I am going to reach out to some friends and check-in, schedule those phone calls. I have one friend where, and this is actually how you and I met the first time we went for a walk around the reservoir in New York, so maybe when we're both back in New York, we can build that ritual in, you know, once a week or once a month for us to stay connected.

Erica Keswin :

But it's been really nice to get off of Zoom, outside in nature with a friend on a regular time, you know, once a week. So staying connected is number three. Number four is giving back. And I do think that if there's ever a time to building a ritual around gratitude, it's 2021. And that could be anything from coming together with your kids and talking about what you're grateful for, figuring out how you want to give back as a family, you know, the beginning of quarantine, living in New York city, checking in an elderly neighbor, dropping off groceries, I do believe it's something that many of us started in 2020 that we need to really focus on. And there's a lot of data around the impact of gratitude on performance and how we feel in general.

Bobbi Rebell :
And part of a ritual can be involving your entire family.

Erica Keswin :

Yes, 100%. And the kids need to, and they want to. Once they get into it and see the impact on how they feel. I mean, I know we both have seen that firsthand. And last and definitely not least, I'm trying to build in some rituals to have fun. These days can feel long and heavy, and as you said in the beginning, just because it's now on the calendar 2021, it's not as if the pandemic went away. I mean, some people woke up depressing, wow, it's 2021 and things still feel the same. And so we need to build in some time for fun, some time for silliness and not feel guilty about it.

Erica Keswin :

You and I have a mutual friend in Randi Zuckerberg, and she shared with me that on Fridays, and she has little kids, so I think that this connects with the under 10 set, but her family has dessert before dinner on Fridays. And they all think it's like the most hilarious thing.

Bobbi Rebell :
Oh, I think any family will go for that. I think kids of all ages will be on board with that ritual.

Erica Keswin :

You know, or on the company side I've worked, spoke with a group at LinkedIn that has a one-minute dance party every day at three o'clock and they just get up and they let loose, they did it in person, you can do it remote. But again, we need-

Bobbi Rebell :

Erica, I want to see you get your twin daughters to do the one minute dance ritual every day at three o'clock. I think that'd be great.

Erica Keswin :

They would, they probably would want me to film it and put it on my social media, which I have to get special permission to do now. But what we do to have fun is every Monday, our entire family, my husband, my 15 year old son and my dog, we all watch the Bachelor. That is our guilty pleasure. We laugh so hard and we are actually this year doing a bracket like a final four bracket-

Bobbi Rebell : Oh my gosh.

Erica Keswin :
... of the Bachelor.

Bobbi Rebell : I love it.

Erica Keswin :

but be intentional and build in some rituals for fun because we all need it, and it's contagious.

Bobbi Rebell :

Well, there're a lot of great ideas and specific examples in your book. So everyone should check it out. Where can people learn more about you? And I assume the book is going to be available pretty much everywhere.

Erica Keswin :

So you can find me, my email is my name, ericakeswin.com, which is K-E-S as in Sam W-I-N.com. You can sign up for my monthly-ish newsletter to hear more about the book. On the website, there's lots of places, as you said, to order the book from Amazon to Barnes & Noble to the Strand, I'm trying to support local bookstores. And I really do believe that rituals now more than ever can help us through these turbulent times. They don't have to cost a penny, but the impact is priceless

Bobbi Rebell :
Very well said. Thank you so much.

Erica Keswin :
Thanks, Bobby. I can't wait to see you in person.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right my friends. What was your favorite ritual that Erica talked about? For me, definitely dessert before dinner. But most of you guys would guess that pretty quickly. Taco Tuesday though, definitely a classic we can all go for. I would love to hear from you. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 or on Twitter @bobbirebell, let me know what rituals you and your family and your coworkers use. A lot of the stuff is for work, but frankly, work and home is kind of the same thing these days.

Bobbi Rebell :

Anyway, I'm also really excited about the changes that we're making to the Grownup List. It's going to be coming out pretty reliably I hope, that's the plan once a month. And I want you guys to join ASAP by going to my website, bobbirebell.com because we are going to be doing a lot of giveaways, including author books like Erica's. We're going to be giving away a number of signed copies of that. And also other authors that are appearing on the show. We have a lot of really amazing ones.

Bobbi Rebell :

And as I mentioned at the top of the show, we are developing some merchandise and some really cool stuff that we are going to give away at first, because we're still setting up the store and we want to see what you guys like and get some feedback. So you can be our beta testers and win some free merch. Just get on the Grownup List again at my website. And of course, don't forget to pick up a copy of Erica Keswin's book, Rituals Roadmap. And if you like it, recommend it to friends. We could all use some calming rituals right now. And of course, big thanks to other Erica Keswin for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Episode Links:

• Erica’s website - https://ericakeswin.com/

Follow Erica!

• Instagram - @ericakeswin

• Twitter - @erica_keswin

• LinkedIn - @ericakeswin

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn-https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbirebellkaufman

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Author Barbara Huson joins the Financial Grownup podcast to share her research and insights on a new way to approach learning about money and wealth, as well as preview her latest book Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success

Get Barbara’s new book, Rewire for Wealth here.

Get all of Barbara’s books along with other books by Financial Grownups here.

Barbara’s Steps to Rewire Your Brain for Wealth

Step #1 -

Start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. Separate yourself from the thought.

Step #2-

The second step is reframing your negative thoughts to see it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought.

Step #3-

The third step is you respond differently. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Episode Links:

• Barbara’s website - https://www.barbara-huson.com

Follow Barbara!

• Instagram - @thebarbarahuson

• Twitter - @thebarbarahuson

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbarahuson/

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT-

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. Now, we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online, and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So, if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power. I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it, and I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have. Go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Three ways to rewire your brain for financial success with Rewire for Wealth author Barbara Huson. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. You know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey, everyone. Hope you guys are well despite all the chaos going on in the world. It's pretty hard to just keep functioning in daily life, but that's what a lot of us have to kind of find a way to keep doing. I've been continuing to work on my book, tentatively called Launching Financial Grownups, and I'm really taking some time to focus, to refocus, I should say, more on this podcast, which I love doing this podcast for you guys. Some of you know I made a big decision coming into this new year to take a sabbatical from my other podcast, Money with Friends with Joe Saul-Sehy. There was literally no way I was going to get my book done anywhere near the spring deadline, so I needed a jolt and this is what I had to do.

Bobbi Rebell:

Coming into the new year, I think a lot of us can benefit from a jolt and just kind of waking up and seeing things maybe a little differently. We've been dealing with a lot of the same old, same old. A lot of us have gotten into ruts, not surprising given everything going on, but look, we've been quarantining and sometimes this can be a good time for a change in mindset, even though yeah, the new year is sort of an artificial way of marking it. But I think there's something about coming into a new year that can motivate us to change our mindset. So on that note, this week's guest is really perfect for all of that. You guys that want to join me in changing your mindset and getting remotivated, Barbara Huson is an author. She has written seven books. The best one is probably, the one that's really best-known, I should say, is Prince Charming is Not Coming. By the way, it was written not under her current married name, it was written under Barbara Stanny.

Bobbi Rebell:

She now is coming out with her number eight book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. When I first heard the title, I was a bit skeptical, but her team sent me an advanced copy, and not too far into it I was on board. That's why I'm so excited that she made the time to come on the podcast and talk about the themes in the book and how we can all integrate them into our lives. And by the way, even though the book is technically aimed at women, I really believe these strategies are truly for any gender. Before I roll the interview, I'm doing big things this year that I want to make sure to keep you guys informed about, because I'm hoping they can really help you reach a lot of your grownup goals this year.

Bobbi Rebell:

The first thing is I'm going to really be upping the ante with The Grownup List. It's been coming out... well, I've been trying to do it once a month. That hasn't really happened, so we're going to, first of all, try to have it actually come out once a month. We're going to have some big giveaways that I'm really excited about, starting with the one that's going to come out soon in January. So please get on the list. It is free. You just go to my website, BobbiRebell.com to sign up. Please also follow me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1. If you go there, just send me a DM just to say hi so I know that you're there and you've heard this on the podcast. And by the way, apologies in this interview for any audio glitches. Barbara was coming to us from an area with really weak signals, wifi, whatever you want to call it. So the audio is not ideal, but the interview is well worth it. Here is Barbara Huson.

Bobbi Rebell:

Barbara Huson, welcome to Financial Grownup. We're so glad to have you here and we're so excited to hear more about your new book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. Welcome.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you, and thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Before we get into that, I want people to know a little bit about your background, because it is one of a kind. You come from a very unique perspective in your approach to wealth and basically how we should be thinking about it.

Barbara Huson:

I grew up in a wealthy family. My father was the R of H&R Block. The only advice he ever gave me about money was, "Don't worry," which I thought was great advice. I didn't understand money. I just wanted to spend it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't want to worry about money. I would love to just spend it. Sounds good to me, Barbara.

Barbara Huson:

Yeah. It sounded great to me until I found out very early in my marriage that my husband, who was a stockbroker, was a compulsive gambler. Over the course of our marriage, he lost a fortune of my inheritance. Here's the insane part, I continued to let him manage the money because that's how terrified and intimidated I was by anything to do with money. After our divorce, I decided I didn't want to deal with money, it's not my thing. Well, I have learned that if you don't deal with your money, your money will deal with you. Then the next year, I got tax bills for over a million dollars for back taxes my ex didn't pay for illegal deals he got us in. My signature was on everything. I hired lawyers, I got the tax bill down. I sold what was left in my trust. I was left with nothing. I had a few properties. I had a few properties…and so if I lived frugally, I'd be fine. I had three daughters. I was not going to raise them on the street. I was determined to get smart.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That's what we call a financial grownup moment, is having your husband gamble away your fortune and having to figure it out with young children. For sure. So you have a lot to teach us. I know that from that moment, you went on this mission. For years, you've really dedicated your life to educating women, to coaching women about wealth. You now have seven books out. Your eighth one is coming out and now you're here talking to us, which I'm so grateful for. You brought us three tips to rewire your brain for financial success. First, talk a little bit before we get to that about the whole concept of that, because this is a whole different way to think about money, starting with how our brains work.

Barbara Huson:

About six years ago, I stumbled on an article about neuroscience. If I could integrate neuroscience, the principles of neuroscience, of rewiring your brain into the work that I was doing with finances, helping women become financially empowered, that can expedite the learning curve and get them past the resistance in a very short time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us an overview of the three tips, and then we can talk about what each one is.

Barbara Huson:

So the three steps are simply recognize, reframe and respond differently. Recognize, reframe, and respond differently. I'll explain these steps in a minute, but you must do these over and over and over and over again, because the key to rewiring your brain, to changing the habits, is repetition. So the first step, recognize. What that means is you start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Start observing them. "Oh, I'm having a thought about not having enough. Oh, I'm having a thought about I have to have those shoes. I have to have that designer handbag," or whatever. Or, "I'm not enough." But you start observing, and you observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. "Oh, isn't that interesting? I'm having a thought," because by doing that, you separate yourself from the thought.

Barbara Huson:

The second step is taking that thought, "There's never enough," and reframing it, seeing it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought, "Oh, there's enough. There's enough," or maybe it's, "oh, here's an opportunity to rewire that thought." The third step is you respond differently. You [inaudible 00:09:24] do. What you do want to do, which doesn't feel right, which doesn't come naturally. In that case, there's never enough and you could go into fear and not want to open your bills and not want to look at your checkbook. Therefore, the thing to do is open at least one bill or start looking at your checkbook. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you say to people that maybe have people around them that are counter-effective? I don't know if that's quite the right word. They're not supportive of this rewiring idea. That are filling people with the wrong kinds of thoughts. How do you do that? Especially, we're in quarantine, sometimes we don't have much choice with who we're with.

Barbara Huson:

It's really, really important that you, at least while you are rewiring, while you want to shift from being one way to being another way, it's really important to surround yourself with people who are supporting you and not trying to rain on your parade. And that may mean if your husband is being a naysayer, simply not listening, walking out of the room. But it's really important, it's a really good point you made, because you become who you're with. There is a tendency to become who you're with. It's very important to distance yourself emotionally, if not physically, from the people who are not there supporting you.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is such good advice. Tell us more about... The book is coming out in January. Tell us more about where people can find out more about the book and about you and be in touch with you.

Barbara Huson:

Well, you can go to my website, which is Barbara-Huson, H-U-S-O-N, .com. Barbara-Huson.com. The book is actually for presale now. I know it's on Amazon and Barnes & Noble, but yes, you can come to my website. There's just lots of stuff on there, and I have wonderful offerings on there. I invite anyone to come.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, thank you so much for joining us. I love the book. In fact, I endorsed it, so that's truly something that I don't do very often, but this book really struck me as something very important that we should all be embracing in the way that we approach money. I think a lot of people can benefit from this different way of thinking about wealth and our money. So thank you so much for being here and thank you so much for this newest book.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, are you guys ready to rewire for wealth? Let me know how you like the book and what other authors you'd like for me to invite on the Financial Grownup podcast. We actually have a lot of big author interviews coming up this winter, and most of them are going to be donating books to be given away to those of you on The Grownup List. We're also giving away branded merchandise as a sneak peek to what we're going to be fully launching a little bit later on, probably early spring. And you can enter and win only if you are on The Grownup List. Super easy to join. Go to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and just sign up. See you guys there. Big thanks, of course, to Barbara Huson, for helping us rewire for wealth and be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

 

Clever Girl Finance’s Bola Sokunbi is famous for saving $100k on a $54k salary in about 3 years. But then she started dropping $3,000 on a massive collection of luxury handbags, most of which she never even used. 

In Bola’s money story you will learn:

-How she saved more than $100,000 on a salary of just $54,000 in three and a half years

-The side hustle that helped her reach that goal

-How after she reached that goal, she made a very unexpected spending splurge

-The fascinating reason, looking back, that she went down that path and kept going!

-The moment she woke up and realized she had to make a change

-Exactly what she did to get back on track and make a profit in the process

-The regret she had despite making money on her debacle

-Why she thinks so much about Amazon stock

In Bola’s money lesson you will learn:

-Why keeping her handbags in top condition was the key in getting a solid return when she went to sell them

-Other ways to maintain the value of resale able luxury goods like handbags

-Her take on investing in goods like handbags compared to the stock market and corporations

In Bola’s money tip you will learn:

-Ways to get luxury goods like handbags for less money without compromising quality

-Bola’s favorite pre-owned goods resources

-How friends can trade or sell handbags to each other

-Bola’s new strategy for buying expensive handbags

In my take you will learn:

-Why I compare Bola’s handbag venture to winning the lottery

-The difference between saving money and building wealth

-How to sell luxury goods like handbags, as well as other things you can sell, like baby strollers

-Why I do not promote buying fake goods as a cheaper option

Episode links

Bola’s website: CleverGirlFinance.com

Bola’s podcast: Clever Girls Know

Follow Bola!

Twitter Clever Girl Finance

Instagram Clever Girl Finance

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LinkedIn Bola Sokunbi

 

Also mentioned in the show:

Vestiare Collective

Fashionphile

Rent the Runway

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Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
Support for Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell and the following message come from TransferWise, the cheaper way to send money internationally. TransferWise takes a machete to the hefty fees that come with sending money abroad. Test it out for free at transferwise.com/podcast or download the app.

Bola Sokumbi:
I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather. Like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. You know what, being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. This is one of those, "She did not do that," episodes. My guest was a champ at saving money on a very low income, but once she had that money, things took in unexpected turn and then there was yet another unexpected twist to the story. Bola Sokumbi is a certified financial education instructor and the force behind the very popular, Clever Girl Finance, a website and podcast that empowers and educates women to make the best financial decisions for them. Here is Bola Sokumbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Bola Sokumbi, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am such a fan of yours. First of all, in addition to being a money expert, you are the force behind Clever Girl Finance, which is a website and a podcast. It started after you. I don't even know how you did this. You saved $100,000 in three and a half years on a salary of, I want to say, about $50,000?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I was making $54,000 before taxes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Give us just the high level. How you did that.

Bola Sokumbi:
I basically got lean and mean with, probably, my finances. I contributed to my retirement fund from my employer because I knew they were offering a match and that was a way for me to get some free money. I kept my expenses super low. I avoided my friends and stayed home. I wasn't going out to eat very much. I wasn't buying alcohol. I was the-

Bobbi Rebell:
Temporarily, right?

Bola Sokumbi:
Temporarily.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Bola Sokumbi:
I was in a steady ramen noodles and coke diet. I focused on saving 40 to 50% of my paycheck and anything extra.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I save my tax returns, my bonuses. I try to save as much as possible. I also started a side hustle. I started a wedding photography business, which really helped to increase the amount of money I was bringing in. That helped contribute to me being able to save that amount of money. Finally, I avoided credit cards as best I could. I, instead, used a charge card that require me to pay my balance in full every month. That kept me really mindful about my spending, but overall, it was really just setting the intention that I wanted to save and I wanted to challenge myself to save six figures. I put my mind to it. I gone to that focus and three and a half years later, I was able to save that $100,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
So smart. In full details, if anyone wants, go to Clever Girl Finance. I want to talk about your money story that you brought because Bola, this is like an incredible story given what you just said.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here you are. You got $100,000. You're hustling with a side hustle. You're eating ramen noodles. You're doing everything intentionally, maxing out your retirement account to get the max. What do you do? You start buying $3,000 handbags. Tell us what, what.

Bola Sokumbi:
Holla.

Bobbi Rebell:
What?

Bola Sokumbi:
Let me break it down. Basically, I got to this point where I had saved a ton of money. I had a lot of money in the bank. Actually, at the end of the four years, I had about $150,000 saved. I was making more money. I had my business. I gone raising at my job. I was earning, now, well over six figures at this point. I was like "Wow, I have all this money. I maxed out my retirement savings. I'm still meeting my savings obligations. I just have to treat myself." I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather, like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I personally would've bought a pint of Haagen-Dazs if I wanted to treat myself but okay. $3,000 handbags.

Bola Sokumbi:
I went all the way, yes. I got my first designer handbag like "Oh my God, this is amazing. It's beautiful. I bought this in cash. I love it."

Bobbi Rebell:
What was it? Describe it.

Bola Sokumbi:
It was a Channel Jumbo in black caviar leather with gold hardware, classic, beautiful.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. I wouldn't know.

Bola Sokumbi:
I got the one. Should've been enough, but then I was like well, few months later, I have all the spare money. I'm still saving. I didn't know what to do. I want to invest, but I don't need to invest that much. I'm going to buy another designer handbag. I got to the point where I was buying several handbags for maybe three or four years. To me, it was fine because I was still saving. I was still meeting my obligation.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much do you think you spent in total, Bola, on the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh my goodness. I don't know. If we were to have an Instagram competition on who could grab their handbags steady for the next 30 to 60 days, I would win, every time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait. Wait. You're going to have a different handbag every day for 30 to 60 days?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah, I could. Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Bola Sokumbi:
I could've. I have a lot of handbags. I had them in different colors-

Bobbi Rebell:
Were they just sitting in the closet? Were you taking them to work? What was going on with the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
That's the sucky part. I maybe use like two or three. Well, I was exaggerated. I didn't have 60. Exaggerating. About a month. Let's say, a month. I didn't really use them. That was a disappointing factor. I'm one of those people that believe that if there's something that you like and it's something that you're going to use, go for it as long as you plan it out financial, but I wasn't using them. They did not make financial sense for me. I was using like one or two of them, and then maybe the others, I would look at or wear to a baby shower for 25 minutes and it goes right back into the closet. It did not make any financial sense. Fortunately, for me, at the time that I purchase them, for those of you who are into handbags, knew that there have been a flurry of price increases especially with the higher end luxury brands.

Bola Sokumbi:
At the time I bought the handbags, I bought them before the crazy price increases started. I got to a point where I was like "Okay, this doesn't make any sense." I will look in my closet and all I would see would be dollar bills stacked up. My husband is like "You need to let these go. You don't even use them. It doesn't make sense. You feel so guilty about having them because you're not using them." I took it upon myself to sell almost every one of them. I still have a few. The ones I use. It was really hard to sell them because I felt like I was selling my children. It's crazy. When I think about it, it's ridiculous, but I sold them. Luckily, for me, because of the price increases, I was able to sell them for a lot more than I purchase. That very first Channel handbag, the black jumbo I just described with caviar hardware, I paid $2,900 for it and I sold it for $5,500.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness. Only you, Bola, would actually turn a cringeworthy shopping habit into a positive investment experience.

Bola Sokumbi:
However, Bobbi, to the point you asked me before we started recording was, I made money but when I think about it, I really didn't make that much money because one of the things that trigger me to start selling those handbags was Amazon stock. I realized that if I had spent all that money I spent on those handbags on Amazon Stock, I would've had times 100 of what I had spent on handbags. Not just doubling my money. I would've like times 100 it, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
If you had actually bought Amazon Stock, but truthfully, how much do you think ... do you think you spent $90,000 on handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh, I don't know. Over a three to four year period, I spent a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. You bought 30 handbags at $3,000 each.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I had about 30. They were not all the same price.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Bola Sokumbi:
They were not all $3,000 handbags.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was the most expensive one?

Bola Sokumbi:
The Channel handbags I had. They were about in the $3,000, $3,500 range at that time. Now, they're not anymore. They're about 6 to $7,000 now.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I don't own any more handbags by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson from this beyond the fact that there was a time in life when investing in handbag was actually an appreciable asset? Still, they probably know. I don't know the market, but anyway, beyond the fact that it actually turned on to be a good investment.

Bola Sokumbi:
I wouldn't even describe as an appreciable handbag because for me, it was just purely for the fact that I was not using them. No one is going to pay you top dollar for a handbag that has been worn and beat up. If you're buying something, I believe that you should be using it. Lesson for this is cost per wear. You can have 100 Channel handbags if you want to have them and if you can afford them and you're paying for them in cash and it's not taking off your financial goals, but what is your cost per wear. How often are you using them? Are you getting your money's worth? If you buy a handbag for $3,000 and you wear it once, then that one time you wore it cost you $3,000 and that makes no sense. If you buy this handbag and you wear it 3,000 times over four years, then that handbag cost you $1 or maybe it comes down to cents and pennies and that starts to make more sense because as opposed to buying $25 handbags over that three-year period and use that one handbag over that time and you get your cost per wear.

Bola Sokumbi:
To me, cost per wear is really important. That's how I plan out my wardrobe. I still buy fancy things, but I have to be using them. I have to get my cost per wear down to pennies for it to make sense. I know when I see something if I'm going to use it or not. Understand your cost per wear. People may think, "Oh, buying handbags is crazy," but people spend their money on different things. For me, it was the handbag thing. Some people spend their money on electronics, on cars, on things that they don't necessarily use like having a second car in your garage that you drive on Saturday is not good to drive per wear.

Bobbi Rebell:
The handbags make you feel good.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I would pick a handbag over a lot of things. That was me. That was a lesson I learned. I put the money right back into my investment accounts. I was better for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's stick with the handbag thing. What is your money tip, your everyday money tip for everyone?

Bola Sokumbi:
I would say that if you are a handbag girl like me, no shay, no judgment, find ways to get the handbags that you like at a cheaper cost or without putting out so much money. For instance, Bobbi, you and I talked about Rent the Runway. You really like that. If you want to actually own them, you can think about getting them preowned from sties like Fashion File or Vestiaire Collective. There's a bunch of different ones that are reputable that sell authentic products or even local consignment stores in New York. There's a ton of them. Or buying them off of friends who are trying to let go of their handbags or trying to recycle their wardrobe. Those are great ways that you can get luxury at a lower cost. You can also wait until some of these handbags go into the sale and purchase them that way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because a lot of them are really classic.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yes. It's all about buying something that you know you're going to use for a long time. I tend to avoid any trend pieces because I don't want to be out of fashion next year after spending all this money on it. I buy bags that I can carry forever. That's what I do. Every purchase I make right now, I carry that bag to shreds, basically.

Bobbi Rebell:
Definitely. Get that cost per wear down. Where can people find you and learn more about Clever Girl Finance?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. You can find me on my website at clevergirlfinance.com, on Instagram at Clever Girl Finance, on Facebook, Clever Girl Finance. I also have a podcast called, Clever Girls Know. You can search for it on iTunes, Stitcher, Sound Cloud. You'll find it there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think everyone should definitely check all of that out. I am a big fan. Thank you so much, Bola.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. Except for the fact that she was ironically able to sell the handbags at a profit, this whole thing reminds me of what happens when people inherit a ton of money or they win the lottery and then they just don't know what to do, so they go shopping. Financial Grownup tip number one, Bola was great at accumulating money but she was selling herself short when it came to building wealth. She was meeting her goals in terms of saving and investing and all that, but that doesn't mean she couldn't move the goal post given the resource that she had and make even more ambitious goals. Not a problem to buy a bag that you can afford, but she wasn't even using most of them. Bola is very specific that, well, they ironically went up in value if she had invested the money. In her case, she talks about Amazon Stock, she would've made a lot more money. Of course, you could lose money in the stock market. There's no guarantee of that. It's just something to consider.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two, if you do buy luxury goods and you aren't using them, it is easier than ever to sell them, so many resources online. You may not make as big a profit as Bola did, you may lose money but you're still going to get some cash. I have sold some bags on the real wheel. I've been happy to have the cash even though it went for less than I paid. You can also buy slightly used bags there at a discount if you want them. As I've said before, you can rent them at Rent the Runway or other similar websites. I will leave some links in the show notes for you guys. Given these resources, I would also urge you to stay away from the fakes. It undermines the economy and the business of the companies that produce the real thing. Don't buy fake bags. Also, it is illegal.

Bobbi Rebell:
We want you to be a financial grownup. Send us an email to info@financialgrownup.com if you want to be considered for one of our monthly listener episodes. Just tell us what the money story is that you want to share and your everyday money tip. If you have not already, please rate and review the podcast on iTunes, Apple Podcast. That helps others discover us and grow the community. It is truly appreciated. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any upcoming episodes and follow me at Bobbi Rebell on Twitter @ bobbirebell1 on Instagram and on Facebook, I am at Bobbi Rebell. Bola is the best. I am so appreciative that she was brave enough to get really candid. She definitely got us all one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media Production.

Journalist and author Nicole Lapin shares a hilarious story of how a lack of preparation almost led to total humiliation.  Plus why procrastination can be a good thing for financial grownups.

Nicole’s Money Story:

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. I started as a business reporter on the floor of the Chicago Merc when I was 18 years old, and when I was asked if I knew anything about money news or business news, I totally lied, and I faked it till I made it. And then I had to become real, because I found that money is just a language like anything else, and I could not speak that language. So I was going to interview the founders of a tech company at the time and my boss, who was awesome, said to me as I ran out the door, and I would always carry like a big diaper bag, almost combat ready with all sorts of stuff, like a poncho just in case, from my time in actual general news, I didn't know what would happen. I was combat ready. And he was like, "Do you have the P&L?" You know, a lot of people call me NL or Lapin for short.

Nicole Lapin:
And I was like, "No dude, I'm good. I don't need to pee." And I get to the interview and the PR person was like, "Do you have the P&L?" And I'm like, okay, think, Lapin, think. She is not asking you if you need to pee, this must be a money term. I sit down with the founders, and they're like, our profits, as you can see from our P&L, you know, blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, okay, okay, has to do with profits, think, think, think. Profits. L, losses. And I kept saying PnL, like Kibbles 'n Bits, and I didn't even know it was an and. Like, I just was so clueless, and that was a great example of how I had to think about this right on the spot and definitely was not prepared.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, so what happened? How did this play out? Did you have an aha moment in the middle of the interview?

Nicole Lapin:
I had the aha moment, and I knew enough that it had to do with their balance sheet, and so I could sort of dance around it and get through the interview. Then after that I wrote down PnL, like N for Nicole, and then it took me another hot minute to realize there was an and sign. It was like profits and losses.

Bobbi Rebell:
At the time, did you confess to anyone? Did you tell your boss, "I didn't know what that meant," or did you just keep going?

Nicole Lapin:
No, no, no, no, no. I just had super intense imposter syndrome, and I just thought everyone was going to figure out that I didn't know what I was talking about, and I would have never, ever admitted at the time that I couldn't speak this language. I only now can talk about this, very gladly in hindsight. I love making fun of myself with the most embarrassing money stories, but no, definitely not at the time.

“Money is an intimidating language. It’s ok if you can’t speak the language. Just ask what something means.”

Nicole’s Money Lesson:

Nicole Lapin:
I think realizing that money is an intimidating language. We just don't have a Rosetta Stone for this growing up. And it's okay if you can't speak the language. Just ask what something means. I've talked to COs of major publicly traded companies who have asked me like what does [inaudible 00:06:00] mean, for example, like right before we went on the air, and I was like, "Dude, it's just the bond buyback program." Like, no big deal. And they were like, "Yeah, I just didn't know the terminology." And so there's lots of terminology that sounds confusing. If you went to China and you didn't speak Chinese, you'd be confused. If you went to Wall Street and you didn't speak the language of money, you would be confused, too.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I love that you're saying that, because so many of us kind of nod and pretend we understand something and maybe make decisions that we shouldn't make, because we don't want to admit that we don't get it.

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah, totally. And you're definitely not alone. I think a lot of people smile and nod and don't join basic money conversations because they're too intimidated and too scared to admit that they don't know what's going on.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And by the way, your website and your books are a tremendous resource for understanding a lot of this stuff.

“I aim for progress and not perfection. If I have more good days than bad days then I am totally winning.”

Nicole’s Money Tip:

Nicole Lapin:
I like to rethink conventional financial wisdom, conventional business wisdom. And yes, you're right. I rewrite financial dictionaries and business dictionaries. I did it in the back of Rich (beep) and Boss (beep). This is maybe why I'm single. But at the end of every chapter in every book, I rethink conventional wisdom to hopefully help you think for yourself. And procrastination is often used as a bad word. It's used as something that you should avoid, but I actually think that you can not fully procrastinate, because it's so cathartic to cross out all the things on your to-do list, like, here we go, dry cleaning, you know, pick up this, blah blah blah blah blah. And actually, those things might not move you towards your goals. So if you remind yourself of what you're working toward and what you have to do and almost connect the dots, I came up with a Super Woman journal that's a companion journal along with Becoming Super Woman to help you do that throughout the day, and I create this point system that's almost like a weight loss sort of system that allows you to give yourself points for things you're focusing on and forgive yourself first if you're not focusing on just the then and there. Because I think we can have it all. We just can't do it all, especially not at the same time.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And another thing that I love about the book is you have these really compelling quotes. For example, related to what we were just talking about, you have a quote from Mark Twain, "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow," which makes a lot of sense when you really think about the reasoning behind it.

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. If you have to pick up your dry cleaning or something, and you need to get something done that will move you toward making your side hustle your full time hustle, I would do that and then get your dry cleaning, unless you really have like nothing, nothing to wear. I would do that later on.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing in the book that I love is that you have not just a to-do list, but a have done list.

Nicole Lapin:
Yes. Because, you know, we often get into this mode of we've just not accomplished anything, and we're not doing anything compared to everybody else on Instagram. And I think comparison is the thief of joy, and also we tend to compare ourselves to the best version of each aspect of our lives. So we compare our fitness regime to a fitness blogger who works out five hours a day, or our mommy life to that of a mommy YouTuber who bakes bread for her kids and homeschools them. That's not realistic. And so if we get into that cycle and we don't have the definition of what success is to us, we often feel inadequate. We shouldn't.

Bobbi Rebell:
No, we should not feel inadequate. But one thing that you also work through in the book is you have specific plans for people to organize and get towards those goals in a realistic way, not in a way where you're trying to keep up with somebody, like you were just talking about.

“Comparison is the thief of joy”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

We didn't get to this in the interview, but a lot of Nicole's advice focuses on productivity and avoiding distraction and all the stress that that causes, and of course spending time when you didn't mean to on things. For example, she recommends a browser extension called unroll.me. It's free, and I am now using it. I will leave a link in the show notes. You can always find the show notes by going to bobbirebell.com and then going to the Financial Grownup podcast area. There's also a handy search box in the upper right hand corner, where you can always just type in the guest name or any keyword, but definitely check out unroll.me.

Financial grownup tip number two:

Another one from Nicole's book was to keep emails to five sentences. If it has to be longer than five sentences, then it deserves a phone call. I'm going to start trying that in my workflow. We'll see how it goes, but if you do it, too, let me know how it goes.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Nicole’s website - nicolelapin.com

• Nicole’s book Becoming Super Woman

Follow Nicole!

• Instagram - @nicolelapin

• Facebook - @NicoleLapin

• Twitter - @NicoleLapin

• YouTube - @NicoleLapin

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Fran Hauser became a financial grownup very young, helping her immigrant parents build their businesses by doing the books and serving as a liaison to clients as early as 1st grade. The author of “The Myth of the Nice Girl, Achieving a Career You Love Without Becoming a Person You Hate” now applies those early life lessons to her search for  startup investment opportunities.   

 

Fran’s money story:

Fran Hauser:
Yes. So my parents are Italian immigrants who moved to Mount Kisco, as you said, and like many immigrants it took a lot of courage to make this move. They were uneducated, they didn't speak the language, and they were moving to a place that was completely foreign to them. What each of my parents did have though, was a skill. So my father was a stonemason, my mother was really good at sewing, so they both started small businesses. My dad a stonemeasonry business, and my mom opened up a tailoring shop with her best friend. Being the oldest of four, they needed my help, especially when it came to communication. So when I was in first grade I was preparing all of my dad's invoices. One memory that I have is I could only add at that point in time, I couldn't multiply yet, so my aunt actually created a sales tax chart for me, so that if the monthly maintenance was $300, I could see exactly what the sales tax was, and then just add the two numbers together.

Fran Hauser:
So that was first grade, and then even in middle school I was helping my mother with marketing. So helping her come up with a logo, and getting different marketing and sales materials printed. So I got exposed to business at a very young age, and even understanding things like revenue, and expense, cashflow, you know seeing that when more cash comes in than goes out, decisions that need to be made around what to do with that extra money. It was really interested watching my dad because he took some calculated risks and invested in both commercial and residential real estate, which proved to be fruitful. I would say at a very, very, very young age I played this role of bookkeeper/marketer/general manager.

Fran Hauser:
Another vivid memory I have that I'll just share with you is when my father was asked to go look at a job, a potential client, and give them an estimate, he wasn't able to understand the directions to actually get to the house. So I would listen in on another phone and write down the directions, and then I would go in the car with him and we would actually drive to the residence together, and then I would get out and I would basically be the translator for him. So that was my childhood, pretty unconventional.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Very unconventional. How did you assume this role? Were there specific deliberate conversations, or did it just evolve organically as you grew up in the household?

Fran Hauser:
It really evolved organically, because I was the oldest. Really, these things just fell on me. It made sense, if something was broken, even in the house, and needed to be repaired, I would be the one to call the plumber or the contractor, and at the time it felt really hard. It was frustrating, for sure, at times because I just felt so different from all of my "American" friends, who were doing sleepovers and play dates, and I had so much more responsibility. Obviously, looking back, it was actually such an incredible experience, because I learned so much, not just about business but also about risk taking. Watching my parents, who had so much going against them, they were at such a disadvantage, but they were still able to take these risks. Whether it was building these businesses, or investing in real estate, and if you look at my career, I've taken many risks in my career. I've reinvented myself several times. I left Coca-Cola and the late nineties to go to an early stage internet company, Movie Phone. Or five years ago, I left a really comfortable job at Time Inc. to move into startup investing.

Fran Hauser:
So I haven't been afraid to take risks, and I think a lot of that comes from seeing how disadvantaged my parents were, and feeling like if they could take risks, I should be able to.

Bobbi Rebell:
I wanted to ask you, so you mentioned, and I was going to bring this up, that you now are a startup investor. How did this background in business and understanding risks, and understanding strategy and marketing, and even just the basic economics of business, how does that inform your approach as an investor now?

Fran Hauser:
So I think in a lot of ways. For starters, when I'm evaluating the entrepreneurs I'm looking at them and I'm saying, "Do they have the capacity to take risks? Will they jump in with both feet?" And I'm also looking at what kind of mindset do they have? Are they optimistic? I always felt like my parents approached every single venture with such optimism, and with an abundance mindset, and treating people kindly and with respect. So those are things that I really look for in an entrepreneur, and then the other side of it is the brass tactics operational side, which is I feel like I'm really good at looking at financials and understanding what the risks are, really getting nitpicky when it comes to the assumptions that are being used. So I feel like I can look at a PnL pretty quickly, and projected cashflows, and all that good stuff, and I'm just co comfortable. I'm so comfortable with numbers, and I'm so comfortable with looking at forecasts and really trying to make sense of it, and also understanding is there a there there?

Fran Hauser:
The other part too, I would say, is just understanding markets, understanding consumers. I think that also comes from just having spent so much time with my parents clients. So it's impacted me as an investor in so many different ways.

Fran’s Money Lesson:

I would say the lesson is to not be afraid to take risks, and when you do so, really approach it with a mindset of abundance and optimism, and don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to go all in and to jump in with both feet, and then also the last thing I would say, which really ties back to the book, is to treat people with kindness and respect, because I think you look at my parents who barely spoke a word of english, and they were still able to communicate through a lot of nonverbal cues, and a lot of that had to do with being charming, and being kind, and that will take you far.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, because the book is really all about being nice, but in a strategic and smart way.

Fran Hauser:
Yes, being nice in a way where you're not a pushover, and you're not veering into people pleasing territory. It's really about how you can be both nice and strong. Those two things are not mutually exclusive, and that you bring both of those into virtually any situation at work.

Fran’s Everyday Money Tip:

Yeah, I love this. So what we do in my house is, instead of a normal piggy bank, we collect coins in a five gallon water jug. The kids love it because it's so much bigger than a piggy bank, and it's clear, so you can see the progress. The last time we cashed it in the coins were worth $4000, and it took us several years to fill it up, but it's just a really fun way to teach your kids about saving and about goals.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where do you cash it in, what's that experience like? Is it one of the machines, or do you bring it to a bank?

Fran Hauser:
It's actually hysterical because it's so heavy, so what you have to do is we put duct tape over the top of it to close it, and then we literally roll it-

Financial Grownup tip number one

one thing that Fran talks about in The Myth of the Nice Girl is the importance of how things are presented, the tone that you use in your voice. So you can be firm, and not be a pushover, and still be nice. Think about the way that you say things.


Financial Grownup tip number two

don't say sorry so much. Try replacing it with "Thank you." Fran points out that many women apologize of things that not only were not their fault, but also they aren't really sorry about. For example, not being able to attend an event. She would often apologize for declining an invitation, instead, she advises to simply say, "Thank you for the invitation." And say that you will not be able to attend.

Episode Links:

• Fran’s website - Franhauser.com

• Fran’s book - The Myth of the Nice Girl

 

Follow Fran!

• instagram - @fran_hauser

• twitter - @fran_hauser

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Optometrist Jen Tsai was in the process of launching her solo practice when the pandemic hit. She shares how she kept her cool and managed to overcome financing and construction challenges, as well as build a retail practice while the world was in turmoil. 

Jennifer’s Money Story:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, it definitely wasn't my goal to open a cold start practice in the start of pandemic. I honestly thought with the year being 2020 it would be good luck to open it with that, but you can never plan for things. I think that was an important lesson, to just always be prepared, especially financially, with working capital, when you go into any business. If we didn't do that, if I didn't do that, we would've been in a different place today.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
I think being prepared for that was always important, and being able to work the first couple of years, just seeing how other practices ran their business, really taught me a lot because I paid attention to their maybe downfalls and ways that they were efficient and applied that to my own business model.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, how did you balance everything? Because you had these plans in place, you were geared up to start this business, then coronavirus hit and you did have other financial things going on you had to balance. You still had student debt, so you had to balance that. Did you take out loans? How did you finance this business and how did you keep going as this pandemic is emerging?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, I definitely have student debt. Luckily, my undergrad was paid off and I had some scholarships. In terms of medical school and optometry school, it is quite expensive as we all know and we come out of it with a couple hundred thousand dollars with our name. I didn't always have a fear of taking out debt. I understood and I did my research about what the student rates were. I think a lot of people do have a fear of taking out student debt, and when they finish school their immediate goal is to completely pay off their loans because it may seem daunting or scary and they feel that they can't continue to do other things with their money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and it's not that it's bad to pay off the student debt. It's bad if it keeps you from living your life, I guess, is what you're getting at, that you don't start other things until you pay it down completely when you're facing, in your case, six-figure debt.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah. I think that is definitely something that stalls people or holds them back. I think it's important to realize that student debt is not a bad thing. I think people see it as a bad thing. There's definitely a lot of debt that other people have that they don't realize on a day-to-day basis that's actually worse, which is credit card loans that you purchase stuff with. Those interest rates are definitely higher.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Going into that, I definitely saved up enough working capital and I made sure that I refinanced my loans to make sure that I had a lower interest rate. I didn't really let that stop me from chasing my dreams and going after what I really wanted. Initially, I was held a bit back, looking at the cost of how much to start a complete cold start. I was even looking at buying old practices that were definitely a lot cheaper, but also evaluating their P&Ls. Thinking about the whole thing, I realized in the long run, this is a short-term investment for your end goal, which is the more important thing. So I was willing to take that investment, especially on myself. That's what I wanted to focus on.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did things change when you were in the pandemic and you're trying to start this?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Once it was around March, we were gearing up to open. We were finally putting down the finishing touches for the front of the store and then the pandemic happened. I'm in New York City, so when it first happened in March, it definitely was a tough time. It was really scary for us. We knew it was coming from upstate and then all of a sudden it became widespread and immediately everything just shut down. It was like a ghost town. We couldn't even go to the site to really look at the construction because we weren't even allowed to be in proximity with our contractors, so everything just came to a halt. I had to quickly convert to a virtual telehealth visit for my patients, while doing virtual Zoom calls with my architect team. It was just insane. It was an insane time. We couldn't even finish our construction because we had to apply for permitting in order to be able to finish construction during a pandemic.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Finally, around I would say maybe like June or July, they allowed us to go back in to finish construction. Of course, at that point there was delays in manufacturers with their materials, getting it to our store. It was just working around that. I mean, I will tell you, our store still isn't even completely done to this day. I've just learned to live day by day at this point. But luckily, we were able to at least open our doors August 6. I was just really excited to get in there. After four months of not really seeing patients in person, I wanted to be back in there to be able to care for the ones that really needed to see me during that time.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Then I was shocked because we basically, starting from the first day a month and a half ago to now, it's been seeing eight to 10 patients already. Partly, I think it would attribute to probably a little bit of social media, just sharing out there honest, brutal moments that I have and I think it makes it more authentic that people do see where you come from, and also sharing the fact that we're there to provide a space where they feel safe and comfortable, that it's modern and clean. I think that going forward, people really care about their health, patients really do, especially with COVID, that they realize how important their health is and they're willing to invest in that. I am grateful that people have been able to come in.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you do in advance financially to shore up your finances and made sure you had that runway?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
On a bigger scale level I think about it. People are either really trigger happy, or they're really risk adverse. If you're really risk adverse, you'll never take the first step because you're just afraid of all these self-doubts that you have. I think what has helped me is just really creating a strong financial plan and making sure that you have everything checked off for the worst-case scenario in case it happens, because you never know. I think for people who are trigger happy, I think that's one thing that they need to think about. Are there things that could happen, such as a pandemic, that will maybe cause me to not have any cashflow or working capital going into it?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Coming out of school a couple of years later, I realized it doesn't make sense to not refinance my loan so that I could reduce my interest rate and have it all in one place. That has helped me manage my money better. I was working, I would say for the first four years, full-time. Actually, when I first started in two practices, then I went down to one. I hustled, I worked really hard to save money. I didn't put it all into paying off my loans. I used it to save up money, invest on the side, so I had a better cash flow and working capital because I knew that I wanted to start my own practice at that point in time. I just knew that I needed money saved up to do that.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Starting lean when you start a practice is really important and only purchasing things when you need it. It has to justify. If you buy a piece of equipment, how many times do you have to perform the procedure to make the money back, thinking about that, cutting back on vendor purchases or offering more of a curated product of frame line. I think these days, patients prefer that one-on-one time, that one-on-one experience to feel like they've had an amazing experience at the store. You don't have to purchase a million things that don't get bought, instead focusing on limited product lines and setting aside cash reserves to pay bills and reducing your overhead capital expenditures and working with your vendors and landlord, if it's possible, if they're willing to negotiate with you.

Jennifer’s Money Lesson:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
I would say, little by little, a little becomes a lot. These little steps that you set in place for the long road is really important. One of the things for me is making sure that you have your financial steps in place. At least for me, that was refinancing my student loans, that was the very first step. For example, I use Laurel Road. Right now, I think federal interest rates are so low it's silly to not take advantage of that. It's great to have this digital lending platform that is built for specifically young professionals in healthcare as well to work towards their goals. There's definitely perks and rewards that they have for healthcare professionals. Refinancing definitely helps you with savings over time, and that's how you can use working capital to invest towards your future or your dream practice or something that you want to build.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and it's also going to help your credit score to have all of your finances in order, obviously, which is going to help if you do need to get more funding, especially if you get these unexpected things like a pandemic and you need to access maybe more capital, more time to pay loans and better rates than you maybe thought before.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Right, exactly. I agree.

Jennifer’s Money Tip:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, shiny object syndrome is definitely a public enemy if you go down this rabbit hole of just purchasing everything you find. They're really good at it with marketing, you're just sitting at home, scrolling through your phone on social media and there's something that you want. I remember when I first graduated out of school, with my first paycheck living in New York City, the first thing I decided to buy was a Chanel bag. That was the worst decision I ever made. I could not pay rent the next month. I learned really, really quickly to not do that. I think that was because of Sex and the City. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is so cool living in New York."

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
But I think learning stuff like that is really important. You don't have to have every single piece of brand new state-of-the-art technology in your office. I know you want it for your patients and for your store, but you want to start off very lean so that your savings don't get sucked dry so fast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and I think that makes sense. I mean, I was upset because the style that I wanted on your eyeglasses store was sold out, but you kept your inventory tight so you're living true to that. You don't want to buy so much inventory that you're holding on to inventory. You're starting out your business lean.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Take your time. I was so frustrated that the glasses I wanted to order it were sold out on her online store, Carrot Eyewear, but Dr. Jen explained that she needed to control her risk exposure by keeping inventories lean, even if that meant losing out on some sales, like to me. Yes, it may slow the pace of the retail business growth, but when the pandemic hit, she wasn't over leveraged. Patience pays. Think about how you can buy just what you need so you don't feel stretched and stressed.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Paying down debt is all good, but as we have learned in the past eight or nine months, well, it shouldn't be at the expense of having enough cash on hand to manage through something totally unexpected, like a global pandemic. Don't miss any payments, be mindful, think about how you can refinance maybe at a lower rate as Jen did, especially with our still super low interest rates, but also do the other things to build your life and keep living.

Episode Links:

• Jennifer’s websites -

  • www.drjennifertsai.com

  • www.lineofsightvision.com

  • www.carroteyewear.com

Follow Jennifer!

• Instagram - @drjenandjuice

• Instagram - @lineofsightvision

• Instagram - @carroteyewear

• Facebook - Carrot Eyewear

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Hello Seven CEO and author Rachel Rodgers has always been bold. But even she was surprised when her family took the plunge and bought a 50-Acre Ranch just after the pandemic started. Her money story will reveal why it makes total sense to expand just when everyone else is in retreat. 

Rachel’s Money Story:

Rachel Rodgers:
We built a house that we currently live in two years ago. We love it, right? I thought this was our forever house. And literally the moment we moved in, my husband's like, "We'll be here a couple of years and then we'll upgrade." And I'm like, "No. Stop saying that. We're going to live here forever. I don't want to upgrade. I want to raise my children here."

Rachel Rodgers:
And sure enough, two years later we saw a property go on the market here in North Carolina. We were like, "Oh my God, we got to see it." It was a ranch, 50 acres. Horse ranch, so it had horses and a beautiful main house on the property. There's also a cottage and there's trails. I mean, it's insane. There's a river runs through it. I mean, it's a little unreal.

Bobbi Rebell:
And Rachel to put this in context, just maybe four years ago, you were actually living in New York and even in much smaller quarters.

Rachel Rodgers:
Yes. So I lived in an 1100 square foot house in Tenafly, New Jersey, right outside the city. And I loved that house, I loved that town, but I got all the kids in the world and we did not fit. And I was running my business from the house as well, so we were bursting at the seams and needed to expand, right? So we wound up with 50 acres. Not exactly what I intended.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. And to be clear, [crosstalk 00:03:56]. You have four children. Wait, you have four children. What are their ages?

Rachel Rodgers:
They are 20, 8, 7 and 2.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness. Okay. So you moved it to the ranch as we record this about a week ago. And by the way, there's actually a separate Instagram channel for the ranch. Tell us what it's like. So you've now gone up from five years, you've gone from 1100 square feet, and correction in New Jersey I thought it was New York, 1100 square feet in the New York area, we're call it, and now you're at this 50 acre ranch. You've got a big to-do list. How are you managing that financially? Do you have a plan? Tell us more.

Rachel Rodgers:
Yeah. Well, I have a big successful business.

Bobbi Rebell:
So this is your next investment.

Rachel Rodgers:
Yes, exactly. And so I actually use the things that I want to do in my personal life as motivation to keep growing the business. And so we've been having a lot of success. We actually had our first million dollar month where we made seven figures in a single month in June, which was really exciting. But we were in the process of buying this before that and so fast forward to February of 2020, we went to see the property. My husband whispers in my ear, "We must do this." Right? Like as we're walking around the property and so I'm like thinking in my head, I don't know how the hell we would pull this off. This feels like a lot. I got to wrap my head around it. And we were thinking maybe it's a retreat space and we use it for business and we make money from it as well. I couldn't wrap my mind around actually living there personally. It just felt like this property is too big. Who raises their kids on 50 acres?

Rachel Rodgers:
And then, literally, we sat down with the sellers. We connected with them. They are entrepreneurs as well. They felt like our fairy godparents, right? They were almost like mentors and they are the ones that built this property. And so we were like, "You know what, we're going to try to find a way and we'll use it for the business and we'll make money from it. Right? I'm good at that. I'm good at ways to make money from things. And so I was like, great. And then literally two weeks later, there was a world pandemic declared and banks weren't even giving out loans. It was like basically business stopped in March and April. And so we were like, I don't know what we're going to do with this property. Obviously this is like a no-go because who buys an enormous property in the middle of pandemic. Maybe not the best choice.

Rachel Rodgers:
And so we kind of hemmed and hawed and we kept in touch with the sellers and we had realtors involved and everything. But in our minds, we really didn't think that we were going to go through with it. And then as the news kept rolling out, it became clear that this is going to be a long-term thing. We're going to be in this pandemic for like a year, maybe longer, who knows. And so we were out in our backyard at the house that we built that I thought we were going to live in forever. We were just laying there, hanging out with our kids. And I was like, "You know what? We should totally move into that big ass ranch. We should move into that ranch. We should live there with our family. If we're going to be in a pandemic, might as well own a ranch." And my husband's like, "I'm down." That was the moment where we committed in the midst of this craziness. It was like, I think we wouldn't have actually gone through with it without the pandemic.

Bobbi Rebell:
So projecting forward, Rachel, tell us about the business of the Rodgers' ranch? What do you envision now?

Rachel Rodgers:
What we envision for it is that we're going to have a little farm. We are going to host retreats. There's a cottage on the property that I'm going to use for my business as my office. And a little sneak peek ahead, we're actually in the process, because we're crazy, of buying a house across the street. Because of course, before we even closed on this property, the house across the street which is the only other house in the culdesac, that house went on the market. And I was like, "Oh my God, it's the perfect retreat house. It has seven bedrooms. We can house so many clients and we could do amazing retreats on the property. We have to buy it."

Rachel Rodgers:
My financial advisors is like, "Please don't. Can we take a beat?" And I'm like, "No, no, no, we have to buy this." Because when will we get another chance if somebody else buys it. So now we're in the process of purchasing the house across the street, so now we will have 57 acres because that house comes with four acres. So it's like 57 acres total that we will own and we'll rent out the house and do Airbnb and stuff like that. But then we'll have retreats where we'll have like coaching with the horses and we'll have a pool party. We've got trails. We have a tennis court. It's pretty bananas.

Rachel Rodgers:
I personally cannot wait to come. Tell us what is the lesson from this money story for our listeners? How can they put this into their own lives? What can they learn from it?

Rachel’s Money Lesson:

Rachel Rodgers:
My lesson for you guys is during a pandemic or recession or any type of hard time, I encourage you to expand instead of contract. I think that's what our natural response is, particularly when it comes to money. Let us just get smaller and contract and we're afraid and so we shrink ourselves and we shrink our dreams during tough times like this. And I say, no, let's expand. Because I actually think, and I've studied this, there are a lot of businesses and a lot of opportunities and careers that get made during times like this. It's the crazy people who are willing to take risks during these sort of shaky times. Those are the people that wind up having wild success. Netflix became what it is in the last recession because remember they were doing the DVDs and then they started doing streaming because they had to change their business model. And guess what? Now they're an enormous giant. And so I say, look for opportunities to expand.

Rachel’s Money Tip:

Rachel Rodgers:
So my everyday money tip is to pay to be productive. So pay coaches, pay people to babysit you, pay people or pay for space to get things done. So I recently wrote a book and the way that I wrote the book, because I live in a household with a bunch of children, big family, we also have my mother-in-law lives with us. Like there's a lot of people in my house and so I went to Hawaii for a week. This was pre-pandemic and got half of my book done and then-

Bobbi Rebell:
Half?

Rachel Rodgers:
Half of it and then when I got back to town, the only way I got the other half done was by going to a hotel locally and getting the rest of it done. And then I would meet with a book coach every Wednesday. And she would basically sit there and babysit me on Zoom so that I would write. Yeah. But I mean, to some degree I completely get that. I mean, I was joking. My family interrupted me like 10 times all with really good things. They wanted to share their opinion on something. They wanted my opinion on something. They wanted it to tell me something. It was all good things, but it took me hours to watch a 40 minute video that was something for work because I couldn't find a place to not be interrupted and people mean well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Rachel Rodgers:
It's a good thing that they want to talk to you, but you just can't always get stuff done and leaving sometimes is the best thing. Leaving temporarily, you know what I mean?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Rachel Rodgers:
And when you pay for that space, I think sometimes you value it more. Now we obviously can't go sit at a coffee shop the same way we could before, but even that you're not paying for, I think when you pay for someone to watch you, you take it a lot more seriously.

Rachel Rodgers:
You know what someone said to me years ago, and I will never forget this phrase. They said, when people pay, they pay attention.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Bobbi Rebell:
start thinking about ending the timeout, if you haven't already. When the pandemic first started, it was totally understandable that we weren't going to be very productive, so timeout made a lot of sense. But at a certain point, we need to find a way despite the fact that the situation very much still stinks for many of us and could get worse, we got to do it. Rachel talks about even paying to be productive. And I agree if you can do it, do it. If it's not in your budget, well try to get creative. Maybe create blocks of time where if you can't leave your home, everyone else does so that you can get some work done. Or go to sleep earlier than everyone, a few days a week so you can get up and work before they get up. Maybe have an accountability buddy that does it with you and you text each other to make sure you're getting up. You can make excuses that are totally valid, good reasons, but that's not going to get you to your goal. Life has to go on and so does your path to success.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Bobbi Rebell:
don't assume your dreams will always be just dreams. Rachel never imagined moving south and opening up a ranch and a retreat. In fact, that wasn't even in the dream category at a certain point, but here she is. Dream big and then break it down into small steps that you can work towards. Even if the overall timeline has to be extended, just keep making progress and don't forget to document it all.

Episode Links:

• Rachel’s website - www.helloseven.co

Follow Rachel!

• Instagram - @hello7co

• Instagram - @therodgersranch

• Instagram - @rachrodgersesq

• Facebook - @Hello7Co

• Facebook - @rachelrodgerslaw

• Twitter - @rachrodgersesq

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Kara Goldin returns to the podcast to talk about how she broke (some) rules, got past business FOMO,  and never relied on simple check lists to bring HINT to the success it is today. Her new book, Undaunted, Overcoming Doubts + Doubters is part autobiography, part CEO manual and part therapy session for anyone aspiring to reach their career and life goals. 

“You can do it. You might need to go slower.”

Bobbi Rebell:
You're having fun, but you also had a lot of work along the way. You had a lot of kids along the way. There was a lot happening. Someone says this, like life is happening when you're not paying attention, that kind of thing. I mean, you were paying attention, but your life was happening while you were building this business. And now, I met you only a couple of years ago through a networking group that we're in, and I only know you as the CEO of Hint, which is a brand that I see everywhere. So I didn't know this whole backstory. I mean, tell us a little bit about that and the journey and the idea that so many people see you now and don't know the backstory and your decision to write the book.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, including John. So John Legend is an investor in the company. It was funny. When he read the book, he said, "Okay, what was so fun is that I kept turning the pages, and I said, 'Okay, this is when she shuts the company down,' and then I realized that you haven't shut the company down and you're doing really well, and so you got through all of these crazy times."

Kara Goldin:
I started Hint 15 years ago, no experience in this industry. So my book is called Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters. And really, it's about the journey of building something because I really believe that, especially in today's world, people [inaudible 00:04:07] you don't need a lot of experience to just go out and do things. What you need to do is have permission from yourself to go and try.

Kara Goldin:
The reality is, is that a lot of people who have built companies, including myself, they're smart people, but they didn't have experience. They had curiosity and they were okay with potentially failing. They went out and just did.

Kara Goldin:
And so, it's the story of building Hint, but really more. It's a story of resilience and doing something that I really wanted to do. And you mentioned kids. I started this company when I had four kids under the age of six. I've sort of come out of the tunnel a little bit and happy to say that I really believe being a parent who has worked with these kids and they've seen this amazing business being built, now, I can't even imagine that they won't be entrepreneurs themself because they've just seen that, while this is hard, they could potentially go out and do whatever they want to do if they find a problem to solve and something that they're facing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's very much a family business. I mean, you would put them to work, let's be clear.

“There is no checklist. There is a vision and there is a willingness to go and try and a resilience.”

Kara Goldin:
Definitely. Yeah, no, I remember early on that my sales guys in New York, my son went out with one of them and he said he's way harder like if the bottles aren't turned the right way, if the labels aren't turned the right way. And so just little things like that, like I always smile when I think about this because although my dad was kind of a frustrated entrepreneur working inside of a large company, I never really got kind of the hands-on learning that I think my kids have gotten, and understanding what things are important. And also understanding that you can actually go up against big industry and win. You can also be a female CEO and grow a company in a significant way.

Kara Goldin:
So I think all of those lessons are really important, especially for people who are sitting here saying, "Oh my gosh, I can't do this. I've got little kids at home," and they're finding excuses as to why they can't do it. You can do it, you might need to go slower.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that I usually do with authors is I ask authors to put together checklists. You said to me, "No, there's no checklist." Talk about why entrepreneurs shouldn't have these checklists that we all love to have, like five easy ways to make sure your business is a super success. Tie it up with a bow.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I've had people say to me, usually it's kind of wannabe entrepreneurs who really want the one or two or five things that they ultimately need to do in order to start this business. And when I talk to entrepreneurs in every single category, every single industry, it's kind of the same thing. And that's sort of the element of making an incredible entrepreneur is that there was no checklist. And when they go back and they think, "Well, okay, I kind of went left, but then while I was going left, I actually figured out that I should go right because this was working."

Kara Goldin:
And so, most people who are really looking for a checklist probably are not entrepreneurs. And that's okay too. I talk about it in the book that you can join entrepreneurs. Just because you're not going to go start a company, it doesn't mean that you can't go and take on an incredible amount of responsibility within a company. But I think that there is no checklist. There's a vision and there's a willingness to go and try, and a resilience that is definitely apparent.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're in a recession now. Many people's businesses have taken hits that they've never saw coming. You had to guide Hint through the last recession and were asked to make some tough choices and you came out strong and a lot of similar companies did not. What are you doing now to weather this recession that you can share with us and maybe give other entrepreneurs some inspiration for getting through this very challenging business time?

Kara Goldin:
I think the number one thing that I learned from dealing with other difficult business times is really focusing on what is working. And so during a time when people are sitting here almost frozen, right, thinking, "Oh gosh, nothing is working," something has to be working. There has to be one thing that is really working. And so can you figure out how to throw the gas on that and get some traction?

Kara Goldin:
And there's always going to be things along the way that are out of your control, that you really cannot predict when those things will come back, if they'll ever come back. But in the meantime, by focusing on those things that ultimately are working, like for us, it was the direct to consumer business, you're able to not only potentially bring in more revenue to your company, but also, when you have something that is working, it's very motivating, not only for you, but also for your team to say, "Okay, everybody, start working on this because it's really working."

“There has to be one thing that is really working and so can you figure out how to throw the gas on that and get some traction.”

Kara Goldin:
And so I think that that is such a key thing during this time for everybody to be focusing on. Find that thing that's ultimately working.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also, you talk about direct to consumer sales. You really hadn't focused that much on your website and sort of owning your own sales until you dealt with companies like Amazon that would not share their data. I mean, that's an important thing is owning the information to understand your customer.

Kara Goldin:
A hundred percent. It really goes back to the purpose of the company. I didn't start this company because I wanted to run a beverage company. I started it because I actually saw that by making the shift away from diet soda to drinking water that tasted better, I got healthier and my family got healthier. And so I thought, if I can actually get to those people who are trying to do exactly what I was trying to do, then that would ultimately help me to grow my business.

Kara Goldin:
But again, Jeff Bezos, we love Amazon, we still sell through Amazon. For us, amazon is just like another retailer, just like a Whole Foods or Kroger or anybody else that we sell through that ultimately owns their own data. But we wanted the option to be able to communicate and get to know our customer as well. And that's really, especially during a time like COVID where out of stock situations and stores on Amazon as well, and everybody was just trying to keep up, we thought we can just go directly from our warehouse and ship directly to these consumers.

Kara Goldin:
And so that business has almost tripled since March for us. It's been really crazy. And again, because we have that relationship with the consumer. It's not that we are shutting down any of those other relationships, it's just that they're trying to manage not just us, but a lot of other vendors as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
But I think that lesson goes to the heart of everything. Whether it's your business or your life, it's important to have that control.

Kara Goldin:
Totally.

Bobbi Rebell:
And one other final topic I just wanted to touch on. Towards the end of the book, you talk a little bit about FOMO. Because you're in California, you see a lot of entrepreneurs, I'm sorry, not entrepreneurs, you see a lot of people working for big companies and making all this money as employees because of stock options and stuff. This is going on while you, I have this vision of you and your family like hauling these boxes and boxes of Hint water to go to stores yourself. Because a lot of this, you're doing yourself. You're funding it yourself. Talk about FOMO when you're building something, not necessarily even an entrepreneurial venture, but just in life. We tend to look at other people and feel like everyone's having this grand thing and it's so much harder for us.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, I think it really just goes back to knowing your purpose. Yes, you will see people with nicer houses and better clothes from Barneys or whatever. I guess there's not Barneys anymore-

Bobbi Rebell:
Barneys went out of business, so there's a lesson right there.

Kara Goldin:
I've been so busy. I have not really focused on that at the moment, but it's really understanding what your purpose is. And again, just going back to the mission, and that's the most important thing. Because there will always be people who have nicer cars and houses and whatever, but if you're doing something that is meaningful, and I think health is incredibly meaningful to people. I think it's the number one thing that I see everyone focusing on today. Like nobody actually wants to get this disease. Wherever you live, how much money you have, how many stock options you have, everyone wants to stay healthy. And I think having a company that is ultimately focusing on that is something that I've reminded myself every single day is a good thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is a good thing. And thank you for all that you do. And by the way, people should understand, it was a natural brand extension to do different flavors of water, to do carbonated water and so on, but then your other brand extensions have not been necessarily about beverages. So even though we think of Hint big picture as a beverage company, you're now into suntan lotion, which you, again, had personal reasons, which people should read the book to find out more about, and then you're in deodorant. And is it antiperspirant or deodorant? Because you actually clarify the difference in the book as well.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah. So it's deodorant, but moving away from antiperspirant because all antiperspirant contains aluminum, which, going back to kind of a family health issue around Alzheimer's that I was grappling with, I saw that we could actually solve a problem for most consumers. Most consumers don't actually understand the difference between deodorant and antiperspirant-

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, and why they shouldn't have it until it's too late. The hardest thing for consumers today is even when you shop at the best stores or you see celebrities holding a lot of these products, you just don't ultimately really understand how that could impact your health until it is too late. And so I thought it's my responsibility to actually try to show people what the difference is.

Kara Goldin:
And what I learned really by doing those products too about just the overall mission of the company is it's not just to help consumers, but it's also to help categories and other brands, like suntan category and also the personal care category as a whole. Because I really believe that if we can actually lead and some of these other large brands that are not really doing great for the consumer follows, that's okay too. That to me is incredibly motivating to know that companies were actually following us to actually create products, for example, that don't have oxybenzone in them. Which is true. I mean, we were not seeing products prior to us launching sunscreen that really called attention on the front of the package to say no oxybenzone. That to me is leading in an industry.

Kara Goldin:
Little Hint. That's what's so crazy. And that really is what the impact of what entrepreneurism is. It's not just about starting a company for money, it's actually creating change. And that is what everybody can do. And everybody sees holes in their life that can be solved. And if you really think that you can go and solve those problems, you have an idea, just try and figure it out. It doesn't matter if you don't have experience. And that's really what you're going to hear out of my book and hopefully will motivate people to go and create other companies. That's what we need.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the book is Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters.

Episode Links:

• Kara’s website - www.drinkhint.com

• Kara’s book Undaunted - www.drinkhint.com/FinancialGrownup

Follow Kara + Hint!

• Instagram - @hint

• Facebook - @hint

• Twitter - @hint

• Pinterest - @hintwater

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Entrepreneur Chelsea Brennan’s product sales are surging during the Coronavirus pandemic but the boom has brought some difficult business and ethical decisions. The founder of Smart Money Mamas shares her personal money story, along with how to do a  money fire drill so you and your family are ready for emergencies.

Chelsea’s Money Story:

Chelsea Brennan:
I still think of myself as self-employed, right? This is like my business that serves me in my family, but the reality is it's grown over the past couple of years. We have contractors, numerous contractors, that work for us and we have affiliates promote our product and depend on their affiliate commissions for their business revenue. Our most popular product on our site is called our family emergency binder. It's this product that fills the gap between kind of your general having the right insurance and having a will and what your family would actually need to navigate a crisis.

Chelsea Brennan:
As this whole pandemic started to happen, we saw sales pick up of that, which on one side as a business owner is great, but on the other side it was really emotional for me of, am I profiting off a crisis, am I taking advantage of the situation, even though the product existed long before this all happened. My initial reaction was to discount it significantly to make sure more people got it, but I had to think through was I jeopardizing my ability to support my regular contractors who typically work with me? How is this going to affect my affiliates? How do I communicate this to them in a way that they think this is the right decision?

Chelsea Brennan:
Something that once upon a time when it was just me would have been an easy decision to just slash the price and move on. I had to have a lot more conversations and think more carefully about it for several days before he made the decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because we realized that so many of our businesses, even though you think of yourself as a solo entrepreneur, are actually connected to other people and their income if you have suppliers, vendors, and then on the other hand, your clients. It can be a bit complicated. How did it work out?

Chelsea Brennan:
We decided to reduce the binder price by 40% for the remainder of the crisis. We keep setting an end date on it just because it helps optically and people understand what's going on, but we keep extending it through the crisis. It wasn't a very expensive product to start. It was $39. Now it's $23. We talked to our affiliates about the fact that like, listen, this isn't a sexy product. It never has been, right? This isn't something that people want to think about.

Chelsea Brennan:
If we discounted the price, if we made it super accessible, we could get it to more people and get them to take action on it in a time where even people who bought it in the past have a tendency to kind of stick it in the drawer of, "I don't want to fill this out. I don't want to think about it. I know I need it, but I'll deal with it later," whereas we could really encourage them to use this as an opportunity to get prepared. Everyone in our affiliate group completely understood that. They thought it was a great idea. We have been discounting it and find that balance between making sure we're supporting my business and the other businesses that depend on the binder, as well as making sure we're helping the community as well.

“People value things more that they pay for. So I could have made the product free and I think that we would have had fewer people.”

Chelsea’s Money Lesson:

Chelsea Brennan:
I think that if you're a business owner, you have to treat your business as a business. As much as we all have that helper mindset and we want to make sure that everyone has everything they need all the time in our community, first of all, people value things more that they pay for. I could've made the product free and I think that we would have had fewer people filling it out. We're getting lots and lots of emails of people taking action, which is my favorite thing. You have to support yourself and the people that depend on you, your family, your contractors, your employees. Don't feel guilty about having a business through recession, through a downturn because you still have to survive, to keep serving your community.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because if you don't make money and you don't pay your bills, those people are not going to be able to pay their bills. It's important to remember that everything is connected.

“You have to support yourself and the people that depend on you. Your family, your contractors, your employees. So don’t feel guilty about having a business through a recession, through a downturn because you still have to survive. ”

Chelsea’s Money Tip:

Chelsea Brennan:
The family emergency binder came about because my husband is a stay at home dad who is not super involved in the day-to-day of the finances, right? We have regular money conversations, but he's not the one signing into accounts, paying the bills, understanding the investments. I was a little bit worried of if something ever happened to me. We have two young boys. The emotional difficulty for him of having to both deal with any kind of grief and learn a whole new set of skills. One month out of the year, we call it our fire drill month, he takes over all of our finances for the month. I have to step out and be quiet, which is the hardest part, right, is to let him-

Bobbi Rebell:
Does he come to you for help?

Chelsea Brennan:
He does. The way we run it is that he's got to go to the binder first. We're trying to find holes in the binder in the first place of like, okay, where are things that we didn't write down that we should have written down? But he does come and ask questions. The first time was a little bit difficult, right? We had a couple of things that fell through the cracks a bit, but that's natural and now we're in year three and it's gotten a lot easier, right? He knows. When we have money conversations in the other 11 months of the year, he's more involved. He has more buy in, and I feel like it's built a lot of comfort for both of us.

Chelsea Brennan:
My money tip is if you have one partner in a relationship that manages the majority of the finances or if you're equal partner switch, let the typically secondary partner take over and really get some practice in case they ever have to step in because they likely will at some point. Even if it's just a temporary point of an illness or whatever, then they have that comfort that they can do what they need to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly, or even worse, what could happen is they could just do nothing and that would be even scarier. What about if people sort of share things equally, if they divide and conquer, which a lot of couples do?

Chelsea Brennan:
Yeah. I love the idea of swapping completely, right? Take over the other responsibilities. We see this sometimes with like home maintenance and childcare, right, where one partner is the stay at home parent. We have this in our house except the difference is I'm home also working from home, so I kind of see what's going on, but it's letting the other partner handle what you normally handle, whether that's school routines or packing lunches or managing the auto maintenance, right? It's experiencing what you would have to pick up the slack on if your partner wasn't around.

“We are getting lots and lots of emails of people taking action, which is my favorite thing.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Think about all the financial stakeholders before making a money related decision. For Chelsea, this included not just herself and her family, but also people with whom she had business ties and, of course, our customers. This applies even to our families. You may want to do something with the family's money, but we need to all think about the impact they will have on everyone in our financial ecosystem.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Pay it forward, but also pay yourself. My bet is Chelsea's community will remember that she cut them a break during this tough time, but they will also respect the fact that Chelsea made sure to take care of her own family. That will go a long way towards sustaining her business well beyond this time period and people remember that and they're okay with that. What are you doing that people will remember?

Episode Links:

• Chelsea’s website - smartmoneymamas.com

• Mama’s Talk Money Summit

Follow Chelsea!

• Instagram - @smartmoneymamas

• Twitter - @SmartMoneyMamas

• Facebook - @smartmoneymamas

• Pinterest - @smartmoneymamas

  
  

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

As a young salesman Adam Carroll got a meeting with a big executive that changed everything. But it would not have happened without getting his name right. Adam shares the story, all the good that came from that first meeting, and specific ways to remember people’s names. 

Adam’s Money Story:

Adam Carroll:
one of my very earliest jobs, I was selling suits for a clothier called Tom James, you may be familiar with it. They visit upper level executives in their offices. We had to ring up people every afternoon. We made 80 dials every single afternoon from 4 to 6:00PM.

Bobbi Rebell:
80 calls?

Adam Carroll:
80 calls.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Adam Carroll:
And the goal out of 80 calls was you had to get at least 15 people on the phone and set at least 5 or 6 appointments for the following week. Well, one of the gentlemen on my list was a man named Jim and the last name was H-E-B-E-R-T. And I was young and naive and I kept calling up and asking for Jim Hiebert. They teach you all the different tactics, just ask for Jim, ask for Mr. Hiebert, it's Adam calling for Jim, those kinds of things. And at one point I said, "I'm calling for Jim this is Adam Carroll." And she said, "Mr. Hebert is not in." And I had been calling him Hiebert for months up to that point. And so, finally I went, "Ah, it's Hebert, it's French. I'm going to make sure I say, Jim Hebert next time." And the very next time I called his office and I said, "It's Adam Carroll calling for Jim Hebert is he in?"

Adam Carroll:
They said, "Oh, he is. Yeah, just a moment." So I got on the phone with Jim set an appointment, and then I got in to see him. And this is where the story gets interesting Bobbi. Jim is in this very nondescript office park in Colorado. When you pull up to the building, it's one of those old drab concrete buildings that doesn't look like it's had any work done to it over the past 20 or 30 years. Lots of luxury cars in the parking lot but when I walked in, it had that smell of musty old carpet that had not been changed in again, 20 or 30 years. I walk into the office. There's lots of oil and gas photos all over the wall and I go in to sit with Jim Hebert and he immediately starts asking me questions about myself.

Adam Carroll:
And at the time I was about to get married, so I was engaged. He just completely caught me off guard. He said, "Well, where are you going on your honeymoon?" And I said, "Well, we haven't really firmly decided, but it's likely going to be either Hawaii or Fiji." And Jim asked me, "Have you ever been to The Bahamas?" And I said, "No, I haven't." And he said, "Well, would you like to go?" And at the time Bobbi, I'm thinking, are you asking me to go to the Bahamas with you or asking if my soon to be wife and I would like to go. And he said, "No, no, no, you and your wife could go to the Bahamas. You could take my yacht." Now, keep in mind this is the first time I met him.

Bobbi Rebell:
You just met him?

Adam Carroll:
I just met him and have not even shown him my shirt fabrics or anything because he said, "I'm not a suit wearer but I'll buy some shirts." And so, he's asking me if I want to take his yacht. I said, "Jim, man, I appreciate the offer. I don't even know how to take that." I said, "What is your yacht like?" Any points over at the wall? And he goes, "Well, there's a picture of it right there." And there's this like 75 foot schooner looking yacht. And at that point I was, again, dumbfounded and I said, "Jim, I don't know the first thing about captaining or piloting a yacht, I don't even know what you call it." And he said, "Oh, don't be silly Adam, there's a full-time captain onboard." It was in that moment, Bobbi, that I realized that I have a lot to learn first of all in the business, but a lot to learn from this gentleman.

Adam Carroll:
And he and I became good friends, he invited me to his country club, we had lunch number of times. I never did take him up on his yacht offer because I just thought it was too much. But he was the one who got me started in this process of teaching people about money because he said, "There's a book I want you to read, it's called Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki." So he handed me the book. He said, "When you're done with that, I want you to read the Cashflow Quadrant," and then he handed me that book. And from that point forward, I just started amassing this, as you can see behind me in my office here, just a massive library full of personal finance books. And he really was the one who got me started in the process and it was all because I knew his name.

Bobbi Rebell:
All because you knew his name properly. And why do you think he bonded with you? What was it when you look back? Because this is someone that made a huge difference and does he offer every salesman that comes to use his private yacht with his captain? I mean, why so generous? I mean, now that you got to know him, have you ever said to him, "Hey, we had just met. That was a big thing."

Adam Carroll:
I had that conversation with him and I said, "I really can't accept the offer." I had asked him at one point, "Jim, just out of curiosity, how much does it even cost to put gas in the yacht to get to the Bahamas?" And he was flippant, "I don't know, it's probably $6 or $700, I don't know." But he was nonchalant about it. And so, I don't know that he was that generous with everyone, but in some of our conversations at the country club, he kept telling me, you need to think bigger. Your mindset is as small as it is ever going to be right now and it will only get bigger, so I just want you to pay attention to that. Down the road, Bobbi, I found out that his wife was a PhD in molecular biology.

Adam Carroll:
She had invented a way, a mechanism that a vehicle would run on the inside of an oil tanker and spray this foam that would remove all of the coagulate or whatever that was on the walls of the tanker truck and then they could vacuum out the foam, clean it and use it again. So she was making millions and millions of dollars in royalties on this invention. So it occurred to me that this gentleman who had so much to teach me had also been about 25 or 30 years advanced in his career from where I was. And what I have reflected on looking back is that in the past 20 years, I've also come a long way in my career and I meet with 20 year olds and I give them advice, I don't necessarily have a yacht I can give them, but I give them advice to try and give them a leg up the same way Jim did for me.

Adam’s Money Lesson:

Adam Carroll:
Number one, mentors, find a great money mentor. Number two, we talked about names and the theme behind names. My grandfather was amazing at remembering names. He would run into people he hadn't seen in 20 years and the name was just at the top of his mind. And he told me one time, "Adam, the sweetest sound in the world to another person is their own name." And I have taught college students this and young professionals that your ability to remember people's names is one of the things that will set you apart because most people are like, "Ah, I'm just no good at remembering names, can't remember names. I hope there's a name tag."

Adam’s Money Tip:

Adam Carroll:
Get really, really good at listening intently for someone's name when they introduce themselves to you. Be more concerned about what their name is then you saying your name, because what generally happens is if you and I were meeting for the first time, Bobbi, I'd say, "Hi, what's your name?" You'd say, "Bobbi," I'd say, "My name's Adam." And I'd walk away going, I nailed my name that time. I nailed it. It was two syllables, it was super confident but instead I need to say, "Hi, what's your name?" "My name's Bobbi." "Bobbi, it's so nice to meet you. Bobbi if you don't mind me asking, where are you from?" And then you would answer and I might say Bobbi again somehow, but I'm working it into my own mind, so I will never forget your name. One other quick money tip on names, I see it spelled out over someone's head. So Bobbi, I might say, "How do you spell it? How do you spell your name Bobbi?"

Bobbi Rebell:
B-O-B-B-I.

Adam Carroll:
B-O-B-B-I. So every time I saw you I would see B-O-B-B-I spelled out over your head and I might even say, next time I saw you, "Hey Bobbi, with an I, what's going on?" And some people are endeared by that because if you are meeting a Hallie with an IE or Haley with an EY or it's H-A-I-L-E-Y, people really care about how their name is spelled. My wife's name is Jenn and it's two NN's and it bugs her when people have one N for particularly those who know her well. So there is something about your name and remembering it in my mind will get you business.

Bobbi Rebell:
Very well said. Great advice.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Another way to remember names, association. Adam recommended this to me after we wrapped our interview. And I actually remember I had learned this in college. So this is what you do, whatever the person's name is you think of someone that you know that has that name, a similar name, or maybe someone famous that has that name and then you associate them with that person, it works. Also, using their name frequently in the conversation, yeah, it's a cliche, but it does work. And by the way, I noticed Adam was doing it during our interview.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

I was shocked that Adam had to make 80 calls to sell that high-end clothing, but it is a reminder that this stuff is not easy. And to be successful sometimes it's both a numbers game, as well as being just a little bit better, maybe a lot better in some cases than the competition. Doing things like making sure you personalize each call and know how to pronounce the name, making sure to spell check all your written communication.

Episode Links:

• Adam’s website - www.adamspeaks.com

Follow Adam!

• Twitter - @AdamCarroll

• Facebook - @AdamSpeaks

• YouTube

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.