Acorn’s Chief Education Officer Jennifer Barrett shares her own “wake up’ call’ when she learned to think like a breadwinner, and gives us specific strategies to build wealth and create a path to have the rich life we all deserve. 

Jennifer’s Money Lesson-

I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth. So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Jennifer’s Money Tip-

I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbi’s Tips-

Financial Grownup Tip #1-

Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent.

Financial Grownup Tip #2-

Thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Get your copy of Think Like A Bread Winner by Jennifer Barrett

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Full Transcript:

Bobbie Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good, and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more thaT I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle.

Bobbie Rebell: Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently. Like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup, or almost grownup, friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear, and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Jen Barrett: Deep down. I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life. I really thought my husband would be the main earner. So it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary, and then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises.

Bobbie Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbie Rebell: Hey, Grownups, this episode has been about five years in the making. I'll never forget sitting in a Midtown restaurant with my new friend, Jennifer Barrett. A mutual friend had introduced us thinking, "Well, you guys have a lot in common and maybe you guys will come up with some projects together." So we were brainstorming our two big ideas. For me, it was Financial Grownup and the idea of sharing money stories to inspire people to build the foundation for a wealthy life of choices, getting to live the life that they want. For Jen, it was the concept that we all had to, well, think like breadwinners. Jen had, and still has, I should say, what we call a big job. She really is the breadwinner and her job as the chief education officer at Acorns is intense and sometimes all consuming. But finally, her new book, Think Like a Bread Winner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less is coming out.

Bobbie Rebell:I can tell all of you it has been well worth the wait. I was honored that Jen asked me to contribute to this book and to endorse it along with David Bach, Eve Rodsky, the author of Fairplay, Farnoosh Torabi, who by the way wrote When She Makes More, so thinking along the same path, and Erin Lowry, who's been a frequent guest on this podcast, author of the Broke Millennial books series, and many more. In our interview, Jen Barrett shares the story that started it all when she realized what she didn't want to admit. If she wanted to get what she wanted to get, she was going to have to start thinking like a breadwinner. Here is Jennifer Barrett.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen Barrett, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jen Barrett: Thanks so much for having me.

Bobbie Rebell: I'm so excited to talk to you about your new book. So many years in the making, we've been talking about this for years. It's finally here. Think Like A Breadwinner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less. By the way, Jen, it's already getting reviews that are amazing. This one I'm going to read to people. It's from Ladders, which is a career website. "Jennifer Barrett's manifesto for working women transcends its goal by being more than a finance book, but a testament that anyone anywhere can achieve their goals with the right advice." Not bad, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, that was a nice review. It was nice to read.

Bobbie Rebell: You're very modest.

Jen Barrett: I know. You're so nervous. You're on pins and needles before the book comes out. You're like, "I hope they like it." So it was really nice to read that.

Bobbie Rebell: Well, I got a sneak peek of the book because I got to endorse it so everyone can read my blurb when they get the book. Before we talk more about it, though, you did bring with you a money story, which really inspired the book so many years ago. Tell us your money story, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, well, there's a material difference between being able to cover the bills and handle a budgets and building wealth that supports your life and the future you want. That difference became super clear to me just after we'd had our oldest son. At the time, I was in my early 30s and we were sharing a small one bedroom apartment with our toddler who was about 18 months old. One night I was pacing back and forth with him, trying to get him back to sleep, and I think it just hit me so hard in that moment that we were in a situation that was just completely unsustainable.

Jen Barrett: I had this moment of, "Wait a second. I thought I was doing everything right financially." I had a little 401k. I had a little bit of savings. I was paying half the bills. But what I realized was that I hadn't been putting money away for the things that were most important to me, and that was being able to have another child, to afford to buy a place or even to move into a bigger apartments because we lived in Brooklyn, which is not cheap. I did some real soul searching and asked myself, "Why didn't I make those choices with my money to save more and to invest more?" I realized that subconsciously I had been thinking that my husband would take the lead there. In that moment, I think it finally dawned on me how precarious an assumption that is. So I asked myself in the days that followed, "How would the choices I make with my money and my career be different if I had been raised to think like a breadwinner?"

Jen Barrett: That's what sort of set me off on a whole new journey and brought me to where I am today, more than a decade later, which is a much better place financially. We have a larger home. I helped with most of the down payment. We have two lovely sons now. I've had both a career and been able to build the kind of wealth that I couldn't have even imagined 12 years ago when I had that wake up call.

Bobbie Rebell: Tell us more about what you were doing before you had that wake up call, what kind of job you had. Because you had a really good job that a lot of people would be very, very envious of and really admire. I mean, you were high achieving and then the things that you looked for in the next job, besides obviously paying more. I know there was a lot of soul searching about sort of what people would think, because we're both journalist backgrounds, there's a lot of judgment there.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, and I think that's an important point is just because you have a good job doesn't mean that you have your finances together. You can be a professional success and feel like a financial failure. I interviewed more than 100 women for the book and I did find that to be the case with a surprising number of women who were otherwise very successful. So I think I was in sort of the same situation but with one crucial distinction, which is I was an editor at Newsweek at that point a pretty big weekly news magazine. It has since sort of gone under and been reborn and it's not quite the same as it used to be, but it was a great job. I really looked like I had it all together from the outside, but I was really living paycheck to paycheck for the most part.

Jen Barrett: We say paycheck to paycheck, but what I was was broke, right? I only had a few hundred dollars in my savings. I was still paying down some credit card debt. So if you looked at my actual net worth, I was in negative territory and I really wasn't making the kinds of choices or making the kinds of money that would allow me to support the life that I really wanted. One big reason for that, which is almost embarrassing to admit now and I've since changed my approach with this significantly, is that I had never negotiated my salary. So when I got the job at Newsweek, I was just so thrilled to be hired there I literally did not even think to negotiate. I do think part of that was that I was so excited to be hired there, but the other part of it was deep down I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life.

Jen Barrett: I really thought my husband would be the main earner and so it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary. Then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises. So one other critical moment for me was I came back from maternity leave and I found out that someone had been hired who had just a few more years experience than me in a very similar role and they were making 50% more than me. That moment was like ... It was so crushing that I vowed I would never ever make that mistake again and I was going to negotiate the hell out of every job offer and raise that I got from that point on, and it made me sort of reassess this idea I had about loyalty and about employers just taking care of you because you're doing a great job. It was a real wake up call in that sense too, where I realized I need to advocate for myself. I need to show my value. I need to ask for it and not assume that I'm going to get it just because I'm doing a good job.

Bobbie Rebell: So you set out to get a job that paid more. Tell us what that job was and how that onboarding went.

Jen Barrett: Yeah. So I was hired in my first job in management. I became the director of a health site. It was part of NBC. It was called iVillage Health. It was a huge site at the time. I think one of the top five largest health sites for women. It was a dramatic increase in the amount of responsibility I had, but also in my salary. So I ended up making almost double what I had ... Actually, no. More than double what I had been making at Newsweek and in between there I freelanced, and when I was freelancing, I really understood that I had undervalued myself and my skills because I was able to make a lot more freelancing than I had in my full-time job at Newsweek. So that was also a realization and a validation of the fact that the skills that I had were valuable. Then with this job, it both provided a lot more income. It allowed me to get the mortgage and it also put me on the management track, which I have been on ever since.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what was your husband thinking while this was going on? Did you have talks about this?

Jen Barrett: We did and I think part of it was when he and I first started dating, he was working at a startup at the time and was making a lot more than I was as a reporter. But I think that's where some of the assumptions sort of got set in my head. The startup went under and then he moved back to journalism. So he took a pretty big pay cut and suddenly our salaries were much closer than they have been. But I think in my head, I still kept telling myself that that was a temporary situation. I still expected him to earn considerably more than me, even as the evidence started to mount that that may not be the case, particularly with both of us being in journalism. We did have some discussions around that and in particular, when I got that job in management at that point, he was on contract.

Jen Barrett: So we realized that my income and my income prospects were probably greater at that particular point. Certainly I was the one who had secured the mortgage in part because I had a full-time job and it's very difficult when you are on contract to get approved. So we realized that my income was really critical to the household and so that launched a whole series of discussions about how is this going to work. I'm not going to say it was easy. We had to have a lot of really difficult discussions because I was pregnant with our second son when I moved into the breadwinner role. In my mind, again, I thought, "Oh, this is sort of a temporary situation where I'm going to take on this really demanding role so we can get the mortgage. I'll keep doing this."

Jen Barrett: Then I found I really enjoyed it. I realized I really am quite ambitious and so I wasn't sure I wanted to give up that role, but at the same time, for a while I was also trying to be the primary caregiver and that, as anyone who has tried to do both can tell you, is almost impossible to sustain. So it led to some really emotional and candid conversations with my husband about what role are we each going to take here and how are we going to divide all the responsibilities, household responsibilities, caregiving, breadwinning, in a way that feels fair to each of us?

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what is the lesson from your story?

Jen Barrett: I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth.

Jen Barrett: So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Bobbie Rebell: You also brought with you in everyday money tip.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbie Rebell: It's a very good gut check and I think it's something that sounds easy, but we don't really do that a lot. We don't usually just kind of pause and sit down and really think about that and maybe even write down a few things that we want to do. I find when you write things down, sometimes they stick a little bit better. I don't know. All right, we got to shift gears because I don't want to run out of time and we have to talk about Think Like A Breadwinner because this is a book that has been in the making for quite a long time, because it is so well researched, Jen. You spent a lot of time doing the work here and the book is chock-full of statistics that are ... Some of them would just blow my mind. If you could share with us just one statistic that's sort of your elevator pitch to get this book, what is that one stat that stands out?

Jen Barrett: Well, I think one of the most significant stats is that half of moms in this country today are contributing at least 40% of the total household earnings. That's according to the latest Institute for Women's Policy Research report. That just reinforces the fact that women's income is absolutely critical right now. I think we saw that when women started dropping out of the workforce. We could see what the impact was going to be, not just on families, but on the economy.

Bobbie Rebell: A lot of this book was already done before the pandemic, but you were still finishing it up during the pandemic. What is in the book now that would not have been pre-pandemic?

Jen Barrett: The pandemic reminded us of how important it is to take charge of our finances and to build the kind of savings and wealth that provide financial security and help us weather tough times like this. So that message of taking care of yourself and putting money into an investment account and building wealth to support you not just now but in the future is more important than ever.

Bobbie Rebell: So well said. Jen, where can people catch up with you? I know that your book is going to be everywhere.

Jen Barrett: I hope so. You can find me at jenniferbarrett.com and you can read more about the book there, and then I'm on social media all over the place. It's @jbarrettNYC on Instagram, Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn.

Bobbie Rebell: All the places.

Jen Barrett: Oh, the places. Clubhouse. Yes.

Bobbie Rebell: Yes, Clubhouse. Let's not forget that. Thanks, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Thank you.

Bobbie Rebell: Here we go. Financial Grownup tip number one. Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent. Financial Grownup tip number two, thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Bobbie Rebell: One thing I do, I always try to think of new revenue streams. My latest is Grownup Gear. You can see more about it at grownupgear.com. I hope you'll support it by checking out the merchandise. It's perfect for all of your grownup milestones. Gifts for graduation, new parents, mother's day, father's day, a new home, birthdays, or just celebrating being a grownup and kind of owning it. Discount codes available on my Instagram @bobbirebell1. Another reason to follow me on Instagram, we will be giving away copies of Jen's book and of other authors on the show. This spring, so many amazing authors are on tap and they're generously giving gifts to our Grownup community. I also want to invite everyone to join our weekly Friday at 1:00 PM Clubhouse chats in the Money Tips For Grownups club. DM me on Instagram if you need and invite to Clubhouse. Big thanks to Jen Barrett for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbie Rebell: The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books.

Bobbie Rebell: To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Are you working harder than ever and not getting paid what you are worth? Claire Wasserman explains why so many of us get short-changed and shares 5 specific strategies that will upsize our income and compensation. Plus, Claire reveals the behind the scenes story of AOC’s decision to run for political office and her role in the gutsy move. 

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Claire’s 5 Tips For How To Get Paid More!

Tip #1-

Talk to real people about their salary. You could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to a real person. Remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Tip #2-

Have three numbers. I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. This is a big problem because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. Oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter. So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there. So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Tip #3-

Talk about the whole picture. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Tip #4-

Talk about your value add. I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but make the case for yourself. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company." If you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. Discounts with vendors? Maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money. That is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees. Have testimonials too. You should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review.

Tip #5-

You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. So how do you address this? You use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." You've said your big number. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together."

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Get your copy of LADIES GET PAID.

Follow Claire!

• Twitter - @ladiesgetpaid

• Instagram - @ladiesgetpaid + @clairegetspaid

• Claire’s website - www.ladiesgetpaid.com + www.clairewasserman.com

• Facebook - Ladies Get Paid

• LinkedIn - Ladies Get Paid

Follow Bobbi!

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Merch - grownupgear.com
  

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy Tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally, makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

Bobbi Rebell: I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good. And that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of T-shirts sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more, that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently, like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt.

Bobbi Rebell: The most comfy sweatshirts, T-Shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more, give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost grownup friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle @GrownupGear, and DMS with any questions. And thank you, because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup Guide, five ways to get paid more with Ladies Get Paid's Claire Wasserman.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey, grownup friends. Do you want to make more money? Yeah I thought so, and yeah, me too. The harsh reality is that the pandemic has been brutal, not just for our health, but also, yeah, for our wealth. Because how do you ask for more money from your boss, or how do you raise prices on your customers in a pandemic? I mean, we should be grateful just to have our jobs, just to have our businesses running if that's the case, which is true. That doesn't mean that we don't deserve to get paid more, and that doesn't mean that we can't get paid more. And we should not assume that those who make the decisions can't and aren't willing to pay us more. Right?

Bobbi Rebell: So I was thrilled to get to talk with Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid about her new book aptly titled, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. So, if you are open to making more money, this episode is definitely for you. By the way, no need to take notes. As always, the show notes have a quick summary of the episode, and all the links that you will need, and even a transcript of the entire interview. You just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and click on the Financial Grownup tab to bring you to the podcast section. There's also a search box on the top right if you want to search for this or a past episode.

Bobbi Rebell: Okay, my friends here is Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid.

Bobbi Rebell: Claire Wasserman, welcome to the Financial Grownup Podcast, and congrats on your new book, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career.

Claire Wasserman: Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk more about the book later in the show, but I want to get right into the five ways to get paid more that you brought for us. The first one is about talking to real people. And that sounds easy, but in this age, it can be complicated.

Claire Wasserman: Well, you could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to real people.

Claire Wasserman: Here's the good news, if you are nervous, remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Claire Wasserman: Now, you don't have to ask people specifically, "How much do you make?" Because sometimes that can feel a little uncomfortable. So instead, how about you bring them the research that you've done? "Listen, I'm an art director, five years into my career. I am working for a company that has 10 people." And please note here, I'm talking about context. Context is key. Tell them, "This is the research I did between X and Y. This is the salary. I think I should be getting paid. Am I off base, or, more abstractly, what's the ballpark that you're making?" Just remember, you want to talk to white men also, because they're the ones who are getting paid the most.

Claire Wasserman: And if any of them were trying to figure out how to be allies, which a lot of them are, this is a great way that they can support you. So don't be afraid to even cold email people, find them on LinkedIn, tell them you're trying to figure out your salary and you'd love for them to be an ally. How much do they make? Would they be willing to share, even just a ballpark. The worst thing that can happen is they just don't respond.

Bobbi Rebell: The second tip to get paid more is, "Have three numbers." What does that mean, Claire?

Claire Wasserman: Well, I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. Big problem, big problem, because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. I mean, oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter.

Claire Wasserman: So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there.

Claire Wasserman: So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Bobbi Rebell: Even though you have those three numbers in your head, is it better to try to get them to make the first offer, or is it better for you to throw out the number first?

Claire Wasserman: I have a controversial opinion here, because I think when you do research, a lot of other coaches will tell you, "Never be the first one to say the number, because you might low ball yourself."

Claire Wasserman: If you've done the market research and they're paying in the market research, when you were the first person to say it, you're anchoring high. If they are the first person, they may be anchoring low. And it sometimes can feel a little uncomfortable to say, "Well, that wasn't really what I was thinking," or it might throw you off, maybe even demoralizes you. So start with the number you want, but back it up with the research that you've done. You can even say, "I've spoken to a number of other people," if they ask, "Where did you get this number?"

Claire Wasserman: And you can also say things like, "This is the number, the market research that I found, but what are you proposing?" So it's not like you're ending the conversation with that first number.

Bobbi Rebell: And a lot of employers, though, try to find out what you were making before and anchor to that. How should people handle that? Because it also depends where you live.

Clair Wasserman: Exactly. So some states have passed what's called the Salary History Ban. The thinking behind that is if marginalized groups are getting paid less than other people from the beginning of their career, and every time that they get a raise, if that's always based on that original salary, well then, the gap will compound over time and will never catch up. So you can decline to respond, or you can be abstract, or tell them how much you got paid, but listen, that's not relevant to the ask now.

Claire Wasserman: I mean, even think about this, look at the original job description, write a new one for what you did. You're going to see a lot of changes. You're going to see experiences, growth, maybe totally different work that you ended up taking on. So the salary that was originally given to you was based on what you knew then. Regardless of what this next job is, and the market research, just know for yourself that you have grown by leaps and bounds since that first salary.

Bobbi Rebell: Number three, "You want to talk about the whole picture."

Claire Wasserman: Yes. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability, full compensation. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Claire Wasserman: So I would say, "What are the top one, two and three items for full comp you can bring up?" I would personally bring it up after the salary conversation is over, only because I don't want them to use your full comp ask as leverage to get that salary down. And you want to ask for this, regardless of whether or not it's a pandemic, just be prepared that you may need to ask for more things, more full comp, if a time like now, if they're not saying yes to the salary.

Claire Wasserman: If you're wondering, "Well, Claire, if they don't have the money to give me a salary bump, how are they going to afford to give me a signing bonus, or pay for me to go to a conference?" A lot of times these come from different budgets. I know so many women who were not able to get the salary they wanted, but the signing bonus actually got them to a place where their now annual salary was exactly what they wanted to begin with. And that was simply because different budgets from different departments.

Claire Wasserman: So if you don't ask, a hundred percent, you're not getting. Again, the worst thing that can happen is they say, "No," which in my mind is really a, "Not yet." And then you can continue the conversation later.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that. A "Not yet." Not a "No." Are there benefits that have evolved during the pandemic that people may not be aware of, that they can ask for?

Claire Wasserman: Well, make sure that you're getting cell phone and internet and anything that requires you to do work from home, which by the way, I think most of us are doing, or a lot of us are doing that.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh yeah.

Claire Wasserman: I wonder if it can even be your laptop, paper, pen, I mean, really pretend you're a freelancer, to be honest. Your overhead costs, they should be paying for. If you want to continue flexibility, you've really proven now to them that it is possible. So if this fits for your lifestyle and you want to do a hybrid model, be prepared to ask, and you can make the case, I think, pretty easily.

Bobbi Rebell: Is that something you should ask before you start, or is that something that you should wait? Because traditionally, people often said "Go in 100% and be extremely present. And then once you prove yourself and they know you and they trust you, then you can ask for a hybrid approach." What's your take on that?

Claire Wasserman: Yeah. I mean, if this is a deal breaker for you, then you definitely want to bring this up maybe during the interview, otherwise you're wasting your own time along with theirs. You can also ask open-ended question of, "Do you have a hybrid model? Are there other people doing this? I'm just curious." So you can get a sense from the very beginning of their openness to the conversation.

Claire Wasserman: And then in terms of proving yourself, sure, but just to remember that it's not necessarily all or nothing. You can ask for maybe once or twice a month, or once a week, or something where they can see how this is going to go. And also proactively address all the reasons that they might be hesitant, so you're not just, "Hey, can I work from home?" And letting them tell you, "No, no, no." It's okay if you're concerned about team dynamic or communication, "Here's a way that we can address that." Just making it really easy for them to feel good about saying yes to you.

Bobbi Rebell: Exactly. And make it easy to say yes. The fourth way to get paid more is my favorite. It's about your value add, really.

Claire Wasserman: I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but making the case... So it's you say, "Well, Hey, I want top dollar." "Well, hold on now. You have to prove to me that you're a top performer." You don't get the money, because you deserve it, even though, I know you deserve it. And it's also not about, "Here's the work that I did," because guess what? It was your job. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company."

Claire Wasserman: Now, if you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, well, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. I mean, discounts with vendors, maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money that is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees.

Claire Wasserman: So if you're a part of contributing to the culture of the company, it means as much as if you were able to land a client, but you just have to make the case. Have testimonials too. So through all throughout the year, I mean, first of all, you should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review. I mean, not to put it so... It sounds not great, but that's the same thing. It's like, "Don't just take my word for it. Take Bob's word for it."

Bobbi Rebell: Okay. The fifth way to get paid more, this is something I think is very hard for a lot of women, because you tell them to be assertive, but you also have to have empathy.

Claire Wasserman: You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because we are, this is terrible, but there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating, put others before ourselves, be nice, be good girls, don't disrupt.

Claire Wasserman: Well, hold on now. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. Well, what's the chance that they're going to now look at you like you're aggressive? And women of color, I know you're nodding. This is something that they even more. So how do you address this? Well, you use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." But you've said your big number, I want to be clear. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together." Or, "I know this is a company that pays women equitably." That's actually shaming them a little bit.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that one.

Claire Wasserman: Or, "This is a company that is very fair. I'm sure we can figure this out together." And you can always, at the very end, just say, "Well, what would you do if you were in my shoes?" Bring it around. And do remember that we're all negotiating in this environment. They will, I think, automatically have empathy with you if you have empathy with them.

Bobbi Rebell: I don't want to let you go before we talk a little bit about your book directly. Like I said, it's called Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. What was your favorite chapter?

Claire Wasserman: I don't think I have a favorite chapter. I just have favorite stories. So for those of you listening, if you're not familiar with the book, I structure it by following the lives of nine real women from the Ladies Get Paid community. Each of them is going through a different professional challenge. And as I tell their story, I stop along the way, and I give advice.

Claire Wasserman: A woman who came to the second workshop that I ever organized about getting unstuck in her career, and all the way, for the next year and a half, she wanted to be in some kind of civic engagement role, maybe in politics. And finally, at a town hall that I hosted about reinventing yourself, she stood up and she declared to the whole room, "I have always wanted to run for office, but people who look like me don't run for office." And she was a young Hispanic woman. And this was in front of a room, this is a hundred women. She said, "But I am going to run for office."

Claire Wasserman: And everybody cheered. And I cried. I cried, because I knew her. I knew her since college. We were so excited for her, because of how brave she was. She declared that she was going to do something that she was probably not going to succeed at. She was going to be going against an incumbent who was 20 or 30 years older than her, of course, a white man. And so here she was, saying, "I'm going to do this thing. And the chances that I even seed are so slim." But that was why it was courageous, and that's why we were so moved by her.

Claire Wasserman: Now, of course, a year later, she wins. Then she became the youngest Congresswoman ever. And her name is Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. So that story is my favorite. I guess I just gave away the ending of that story. If that wasn't enough to have you read the book... Well, you'll read the book. I know you all will.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah, the book was amazing. And by the way, it's important to know that even though the title is Ladies Get Paid, there is a lot of general career advice here. It's really powerful. And things that you haven't necessarily heard before are very original strategies that I think will be helpful to everyone.

Bobbi Rebell:My favorite chapter, by the way, was in level up section, you have different sections. I love chapter eight, Get Allies, because I think it's so important to have allies in your corner. As you mentioned, so many jobs are never publicly listed. And so it's important to have people that are looking out for you. And it's not always your direct inner circle. Sometimes it's your acquaintances that can be so valuable in helping your career.

Claire Wasserman: I have never gotten a job that I applied to online. I think I maybe got an interview once. My whole career has come from relationships that I've built over time. They've also been strategic. It's not mutually exclusive to be authentic and have a genuine friendship while also knowing how both of you are going to leverage each other's strengths and connections. And that, again, has been the key, the key to men, the old boys club that exists for a reason. And so we have to create the young girls club. How about that?

Bobbi Rebell: Yes. Well, it's the everyone club, really. And you have to... One of my favorite stories was the last one that you share, which is Madeline, who really investigated and was very upset to find that the men in her company were making multitudes of what she was making. I was a little bit upset by what the ending was, but it was a big lesson.

Claire Wasserman: So that name has been changed.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes.

Claire Wasserman: Her story is in the New Yorker. You can all figure it out.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah.

Claire Wasserman: It is wild. It is even more dramatic than I put in the book, because my editor thought, "Well, the people won't believe this." So you know what? Truth is stranger than fiction, and I'm so honored by her and everybody else who so vulnerably shared their struggles with me. I think it goes a long way to showing folks out there that they're not alone, which is the first step, undo any shame that you have in order to be open to learning and to helping others. We're all going through something. It's so relieving. It's like you just alleviate this weight off of you when you share your story, and I'm just honored that these women did that with me and for you all.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. And thank you for sharing all of those stories. Tell us more about where people can reach you. We know the book is available everywhere. Where can people be in touch with you and Ladies Get Paid?

Claire Wasserman: I would love you all to follow me on Instagram. I'm @ClaireGetsPaid. You can also follow @LadiesGetPaid on Instagram, and join our Slack group. We've got 75,000 women from all over the world. They've exchanged more than two million messages since 2016. So very talkative in there, and it's free. So just join at LadiesGetPaid.com, and we'll add you. And thanks, Bobbi, for having me. I always love an opportunity to share my story, and as you can tell, I like to talk.

Bobbi Rebell: If you loved what Claire had to say as much as I did, I hope you will, first of all, go buy her book. It's great. And I also hope you will take a moment, while you are listening to this podcast, and take a screenshot of it and post it on Instagram Stories or other social media. And if you tag me @BobbiRebell1, that's B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L, and then the number one, you will be entered into our monthly giveaways. You can win books by our authors that are on the podcast, as well as merch from our new Grownup Gear store. You can see the merch, by the way, right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. You'll see it says shop grownup gear.

Bobbi Rebell: Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of the Financial Grownup podcast. So grateful for Claire Wasserman for helping us all learn to get paid like financial grownups. Bye, everyone.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Entrepreneur Chelsea Brennan’s product sales are surging during the Coronavirus pandemic but the boom has brought some difficult business and ethical decisions. The founder of Smart Money Mamas shares her personal money story, along with how to do a  money fire drill so you and your family are ready for emergencies.

Chelsea’s Money Story:

Chelsea Brennan:
I still think of myself as self-employed, right? This is like my business that serves me in my family, but the reality is it's grown over the past couple of years. We have contractors, numerous contractors, that work for us and we have affiliates promote our product and depend on their affiliate commissions for their business revenue. Our most popular product on our site is called our family emergency binder. It's this product that fills the gap between kind of your general having the right insurance and having a will and what your family would actually need to navigate a crisis.

Chelsea Brennan:
As this whole pandemic started to happen, we saw sales pick up of that, which on one side as a business owner is great, but on the other side it was really emotional for me of, am I profiting off a crisis, am I taking advantage of the situation, even though the product existed long before this all happened. My initial reaction was to discount it significantly to make sure more people got it, but I had to think through was I jeopardizing my ability to support my regular contractors who typically work with me? How is this going to affect my affiliates? How do I communicate this to them in a way that they think this is the right decision?

Chelsea Brennan:
Something that once upon a time when it was just me would have been an easy decision to just slash the price and move on. I had to have a lot more conversations and think more carefully about it for several days before he made the decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because we realized that so many of our businesses, even though you think of yourself as a solo entrepreneur, are actually connected to other people and their income if you have suppliers, vendors, and then on the other hand, your clients. It can be a bit complicated. How did it work out?

Chelsea Brennan:
We decided to reduce the binder price by 40% for the remainder of the crisis. We keep setting an end date on it just because it helps optically and people understand what's going on, but we keep extending it through the crisis. It wasn't a very expensive product to start. It was $39. Now it's $23. We talked to our affiliates about the fact that like, listen, this isn't a sexy product. It never has been, right? This isn't something that people want to think about.

Chelsea Brennan:
If we discounted the price, if we made it super accessible, we could get it to more people and get them to take action on it in a time where even people who bought it in the past have a tendency to kind of stick it in the drawer of, "I don't want to fill this out. I don't want to think about it. I know I need it, but I'll deal with it later," whereas we could really encourage them to use this as an opportunity to get prepared. Everyone in our affiliate group completely understood that. They thought it was a great idea. We have been discounting it and find that balance between making sure we're supporting my business and the other businesses that depend on the binder, as well as making sure we're helping the community as well.

“People value things more that they pay for. So I could have made the product free and I think that we would have had fewer people.”

Chelsea’s Money Lesson:

Chelsea Brennan:
I think that if you're a business owner, you have to treat your business as a business. As much as we all have that helper mindset and we want to make sure that everyone has everything they need all the time in our community, first of all, people value things more that they pay for. I could've made the product free and I think that we would have had fewer people filling it out. We're getting lots and lots of emails of people taking action, which is my favorite thing. You have to support yourself and the people that depend on you, your family, your contractors, your employees. Don't feel guilty about having a business through recession, through a downturn because you still have to survive, to keep serving your community.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because if you don't make money and you don't pay your bills, those people are not going to be able to pay their bills. It's important to remember that everything is connected.

“You have to support yourself and the people that depend on you. Your family, your contractors, your employees. So don’t feel guilty about having a business through a recession, through a downturn because you still have to survive. ”

Chelsea’s Money Tip:

Chelsea Brennan:
The family emergency binder came about because my husband is a stay at home dad who is not super involved in the day-to-day of the finances, right? We have regular money conversations, but he's not the one signing into accounts, paying the bills, understanding the investments. I was a little bit worried of if something ever happened to me. We have two young boys. The emotional difficulty for him of having to both deal with any kind of grief and learn a whole new set of skills. One month out of the year, we call it our fire drill month, he takes over all of our finances for the month. I have to step out and be quiet, which is the hardest part, right, is to let him-

Bobbi Rebell:
Does he come to you for help?

Chelsea Brennan:
He does. The way we run it is that he's got to go to the binder first. We're trying to find holes in the binder in the first place of like, okay, where are things that we didn't write down that we should have written down? But he does come and ask questions. The first time was a little bit difficult, right? We had a couple of things that fell through the cracks a bit, but that's natural and now we're in year three and it's gotten a lot easier, right? He knows. When we have money conversations in the other 11 months of the year, he's more involved. He has more buy in, and I feel like it's built a lot of comfort for both of us.

Chelsea Brennan:
My money tip is if you have one partner in a relationship that manages the majority of the finances or if you're equal partner switch, let the typically secondary partner take over and really get some practice in case they ever have to step in because they likely will at some point. Even if it's just a temporary point of an illness or whatever, then they have that comfort that they can do what they need to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly, or even worse, what could happen is they could just do nothing and that would be even scarier. What about if people sort of share things equally, if they divide and conquer, which a lot of couples do?

Chelsea Brennan:
Yeah. I love the idea of swapping completely, right? Take over the other responsibilities. We see this sometimes with like home maintenance and childcare, right, where one partner is the stay at home parent. We have this in our house except the difference is I'm home also working from home, so I kind of see what's going on, but it's letting the other partner handle what you normally handle, whether that's school routines or packing lunches or managing the auto maintenance, right? It's experiencing what you would have to pick up the slack on if your partner wasn't around.

“We are getting lots and lots of emails of people taking action, which is my favorite thing.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Think about all the financial stakeholders before making a money related decision. For Chelsea, this included not just herself and her family, but also people with whom she had business ties and, of course, our customers. This applies even to our families. You may want to do something with the family's money, but we need to all think about the impact they will have on everyone in our financial ecosystem.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Pay it forward, but also pay yourself. My bet is Chelsea's community will remember that she cut them a break during this tough time, but they will also respect the fact that Chelsea made sure to take care of her own family. That will go a long way towards sustaining her business well beyond this time period and people remember that and they're okay with that. What are you doing that people will remember?

Episode Links:

• Chelsea’s website - smartmoneymamas.com

• Mama’s Talk Money Summit

Follow Chelsea!

• Instagram - @smartmoneymamas

• Twitter - @SmartMoneyMamas

• Facebook - @smartmoneymamas

• Pinterest - @smartmoneymamas

  
  

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

A lot of us feel squeamish about selling but even movie stars have to sell their work. Ash Ambirge, author of The Middle Finger Project: Trash Your Imposter Syndrome and Live the Unf*ckwithable Life You Deserve shares her story of getting inspired by Brad Pitt to get past her fears and succeed at selling.

Ash’s Money Story:

Ash Ambirge:
When I was watching TV one day from my apartment in Santiago, Chile, where I was living at the time, an ad for Brad Pitt's new movie popped onto the TV. And there, this guy is like giving this big interview. He's all over the place. He's really excited about his new movie. He's telling Oprah or whoever, Ellen at the time, all about this thing that was coming up. And I looked at him and I thought, "Oh my God, even people like Brad Pitt need to promote their stuff. He's not exempt from this either. And look at him doing a fine and eloquent job."

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you translate that to yourself?

Ash Ambirge:
Yeah. So when you see Brad Pitt standing up and saying, "Hey everybody, so my new movie comes out on March 3rd and here's what it's about and I really hope you guys show up," you realize that the key to selling has nothing to do with selling, it has everything to do with enthusiasm. Brad Pitt was enthusiastic about his movie and I wanted to feel that way too about the stuff that I was selling.

Ash Ambirge:
And so I started switching my approach. Every single thing that I was doing, whether it was an event or not, I started telling everyone about with the utmost enthusiasm. Because when I believed in the things that I was creating and making, other people automatically felt like they could believe in it too. And it created this chain reaction. And a part of that was also understanding that I could no longer sell the things that I wasn't really enthusiastic about.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. So true, and yet we don't always really process things that way.

“Selling is always helping”

Ash’s Money Lesson:

Bobbi Rebell:
what is the lesson for our listeners from that story? How can people make it their own?

Ash Ambirge:
Whenever you go into any interaction, and it doesn't matter if you're an employee or you are a freelancer, you have to approach it from the perspective of an advisor. This is what I look at now and it's like, "Okay, hey person. Yes, I'm really excited. Here's the stuff that I'm doing. Here's how I think it could help you." Talk to them about what you actually have to offer in the most brightest and brilliant way you can muster, as opposed to looking at it like, oh, I'm just a lowly employee or a lowly freelancer and I'm here just to kind of take orders from people and wait and hope that they give me their money and hope that they see that I'm actually awesome.

Ash Ambirge:
Instead, you have to look at it like you're an advisor and you are here to just be the most enthusiastic you can about this thing that you are selling. And when you approach it with enthusiasm and like, "Hey, I'm just here to help, let's talk about how I can help you," it changes everything from feeling ick and salesy, to being like, "Oh my gosh, this person is my guardian angel. I'm so excited that their here." They will be thrilled to hear from you.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that shift in mindset is key because people can tell when you're selling versus helping them. There's a difference.

Ash Ambirge:
Yeah. Oh yeah. And that's it, selling is always helping. We always feel like we're bothering people, but if you genuinely set out to help somebody, it doesn't even matter if you're just great at makeup, if you are great at finances, whatever the thing is that you're great at, that's all you're doing. You're showing up and being like, "Hey, do you need my help?" That's it. It's simple. "Hey, do you want my help? I have this thing for sale. You can totally buy it. Let's do it."

“Enthusiasm is the greatest pitch there is”

Ash’s Money Tip:

Ash Ambirge:
It does have to do with hot dogs and Jersey. It's called the hot dog theory of money. The hot dog theory of money is to help you anytime you get all scared and intimidated when you are sitting there in your boss's office, or you are asking a client to give you more money, A, because hotdogs are hilarious, and B, because they really do simplify this and make it way less scary.

Ash Ambirge:
So if you were a vendor on the Jersey shore and you're out there selling hot dogs, and some guy comes up to you and is like, "Yo man, hey, how much for a hot dog," you are not going to hm and haw and get all nervous about stating the price of the hotdog, you're not going to say, "Well, since it's the first time that you're here, maybe we could work out a deal," or, I don't know, "Did you have a budget in mind for how much you wanted to spend?" None of that, because we understand intuitively that if we're actually a vendor selling a hotdog on the Jersey shore, the price is the price is the price for a reason. It includes all of the manufacturing costs, it includes the delivery, it includes the packaging, the branding, it includes my time sitting there just selling these hotdogs, and whatever other costs are involved.

Ash Ambirge:
And it also is going to include the person who owns the company. It's going to include their profit, and we never ever factor in our own profit and our own worth when it comes to asking for money. So, the next time you have to ask for it, think about it. You are just stating the price of a hot dog. That's it. This is what it costs, would you like to buy it?

Bobbi Rebell:
That just makes so much sense. And that's something that really was a huge turning point in your business because you were making mistakes early on, and then by having that mentality, you started to have firm prices and it changed everything.

Ash Ambirge:
It did. I used to work in advertising before I became a freelancer, and one of the things I learned from that was they would send us out with rate cards and the rate was the rate was the rate for the magazine. And it was very straight forward. So I adopted that posture when I walked into meetings with my own clients now and just said, "Hey, so here's how much it costs. Here's what it includes." It's so much less complicated than we make it in our heads. The price is the price is the price for a reason and that includes every single thing about you that you're bringing to the table, from your enthusiasm about your stuff, to the way that you package it, to all the stuff that you know. I mean, it is so worth it, but sometimes we may seem way harder than it is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, it's hard because we can be insecure about our own self-worth. And your book, one of the many things that I love about it is there's so much in there that can give us the confidence to be more secure and to be stronger in negotiations, and also in advocating for ourselves and for our businesses. One of my favorite quotes in the book, there's so many, but anyway, one of them is, "If you build it, they will come is basically for a jelly donut to magically appear in your hand."

Ash Ambirge:
Okay. Seriously. I mean, and for my listeners, this is the kind of stuff, but you're making a real point. It's just not going to happen if you just think they're going to come because you built it, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah.

Ash Ambirge:
But the key really goes back to enthusiasm. Like when you are enthusiastic about the thing you're selling, even if it's yourself and your talents, then great. And it just shows up naturally and you don't have to put all of this weird professionalism around it and all this weird like anxiety that happens. Like you're just there to help everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
And speaking of that, one of my favorite quotes is, "Enthusiasm is the greatest pitch there is," because of just what you said. If you love something and you believe in it and you believe that it's going to help the person who might potentially buy it, that's a much stronger sell.

Ash Ambirge:
It's a much stronger sale. And I've sold myself to companies that way as an employee and as a freelancer, no matter what it is. That's what they love about working with people because no one ever hired anyone to be unhelpful, right? So if you can demonstrate that you are here to legitimately help them, that's wonderful. And then they can figure out how to teach you the on the job stuff that they need to know. Enthusiasm is so underrated.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And a lot of us get tempted to offer to do things for free just to prove ourselves. But another one of the quotes that I love is, "Charging money is a sign they can take your offer seriously."

Ash Ambirge:
Yes. And so is showing up consistently for yourself in whatever form, and following up with those clients in some kind of a very systematic way shows them that you take their business seriously and they can trust you. Because there's nothing worse than some guy who's like, "Hey I can help you with your SEO for your website." And then he's like, "Hey, just give me admin access to your site," and doesn't do any kind of like contract or have any kind of process. Having those processes in place and actually sending out those kinds of things and charging fair good money is a sign the client can trust you.

“Charging good, fair money is a sign the client can trust you”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

You can find inspiration everywhere. Brad Pitt, not the first person you think of when it comes to business necessarily, and he didn't come from a privileged background. Brad Pitt did not go to a fancy college and he isn't even officially in the sales business, except he is, and to a large degree, we all are. Even if you are just even applying for a new job or trying to get a new client, you're selling yourself as a solution to their problem. That's the job to fill.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

With all of us working from home these days, there is a temptation to go super casual. And in some cases, that can work, but Ash talks about processes, having set prices and being professional, running a business, a professional business. People take you seriously then. Let's not forget that you still need to be on time. You still need to look neat and professional, even if it's a little bit more casual. You want to follow up efficiently just like you would if you were getting up and going to an office. If you want somebody to give you money, don't forget her advice. You need to be enthusiastic, even as hard as it may be with everything going on these days.

Episode Links:

• Ash’s website - www.themiddlefingerproject.org

• Ash’s Book - The Middle Finger Project

Follow Ash!

• Twitter - @TMFproject

• Facebook - @TMFproject

• Instagram - @the.middle.finger.project

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Bobbi reveals her favorite new money related books, and how to decide if they are right for you. This month’s picks include Don’t Keep Your Day Job by Cathy Heller, The Big Stretch by Teneshia Warner, The Future is Faster Than You Think by Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler, Napkin Finance by Tina Hay and Bow Dow by Lindsay Goldwert.

These are recommendations so I am going to focus on why I was drawn to them and what I got out of them- and full disclosure we do focus  on books written by authors that appear on the podcast- because if we are being honest when I love a book- I want to know more and I want to share that with you guys so we tend to reach out and try to get them on.

Book #1: Don’t Keep Your Day Job: How to Turn your Passion into your Career by Cathy Heller

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-The book is practical and specific. She gives down to earth advice about how to realistically follow your passion but in a very practical way. 

- She shares advice from experts including authors Jen Sincero and Gretchen Rubin and actress Jenna Fischer. There are also stories about every day people to make it relatable.

-There are lots of inspirational quotes like "Why did it have to be an ‘either-or’ when it could be a ‘yes and’?”

Who is this book for:

Don’t keep your day job will motivate just about anyone but it is especially for people looking for advice on well.. how to leave their corporate jobs. Also Entrepreneurs who need a little nudge to connect doing what they love, with doing something that another person or entity will pay for. Emphasis on getting paid.  

Book #2: The Big Stretch: 90 Days to Expand Your Dreams, Crush Your Goals, and Create Your Own Success by Teneshia Warner

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

-It shares the success stories of some of the dreamers that have spoken at those conferences

-It has a time line: 90 days with specific assignments

-Teneshia’s personality shines through and is the real gem in this book

Who is this book for:

It’s for people willing to do the work to get to their goals and The Big Stretch will help you decide if that is you. Not everyone is ready to go for it- and Teneshia sets expectations that will push you to get there- but only if you are ready. 

Book #3: The Future is Faster Thank You Think. How Converging Technologies Are Transforming Business, Industries and Our Lives by Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler.

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-At first I was intimidated by the book- in part because it’s authors are so accomplished as “Big” Thought Leaders. But once I started reading it, this actually became a page turner because of the very accessible way they approach what are often complicated topics, 

-It’s a little like looking into a crystal ball except after- and only after they lay out theories and predictions, you realize that to a large degree. the way things play out was logical all along. They touch on everything from AI, to digital biology, virtual reality, robotics and blockchain.

-The book made me smarter about our world and who doesn’t love just feeling like they have a better handle on our world. 

Who is this book for:

Truth- This is all stuff I just wasn’t that into- until I started reading the book. So even if this isn’t your thing- move out of your comfort zone and just start. You might be surprised how much you like it, just like I did. 

Book #4: Napkin Finance: Build your Wealth in 30 seconds or less by Tina Hay.

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

-It addresses the very basics of financial literacy in a unique and approachable way

-Napkin Finance explains some of the most misunderstood and confusing topics ranging from blockchain to credit scores and paying off student debt.

-Fun fact: Napkin Finance partnered with Michelle Obama’s Better Make Room campaign 

Who is this book for:

Napkin Finance is a book for beginners- and for those of us that can benefit from some re-enforcement and sometimes clarification of financial concepts- most basic but some kind of complicated. 

Bonus Book: Bow Down: Lessons from Dominatrixes on How to Get Everything You Want by Lindsay Goldwert.

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-Lindsay is very revealing about her own challenges and makes you feel like you are in it together with her

-The doms- as Lindsay often refers to the dominatrixes share some very specific advice about how they negotiate and hold on to power

-There is a lot of psychology and real insights into human behavior and what triggers certain reactions. By revealing these Lindsay helps us see why we get the reactions we do, and how we can pivot to get.. well everything we want. 

Who is this book for:

Everyone that wants to get everything they want- of course. 

Episode Links:

Cathy Heller’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Don’t Keep Your Day Job: How to Turn your Passion into your Career

Teneshia Warner’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of The Big Stretch: 90 Days to Expand Your Dreams, Crush Your Goals, and Create Your Own Success

Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of The Future is Faster Thank You Think. How Converging Technologies Are Transforming Business, Industries and Our Lives

Tina Hay’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Napkin Finance: Build your Wealth in 30 seconds or less

Lindsay Goldwert’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Bow Down: Lessons from Dominatrixes on How to Get Everything You Want.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Music entrepreneur, author, coach and podcast host Cathy Heller was crushed early in her career when her record label dropped her. But she discovered another way to make money from her music and staged the ultimate multi-million dollar comeback. 

Cathy’s Money Story:

Cathy Heller:
Yeah. My money story. I came out to LA wanting to write music. That was all I knew I loved doing as a kid. I thought, all right, I'm going to do that thing that you see them do in movies. I'm going to go out to LA. I grew up on the East Coast. I was going to figure it out and I had to get a job and pay the bills. I got a job as an assistant in an office and I had a roommate and she was an actress and I was doing my thing. And eventually I started writing music and I wrote some mediocre songs and they got better. And I finally got a record deal. I actually did. I remember sitting with Ron Fair at Interscope, I had just signed and Lady Gaga was there recording Paparazzi and I was like, oh my God, I'm sitting in this room. It's amazing.

Bobbi Rebell:
That must've been so surreal.

Cathy Heller:
It was really surreal. And by the way, hearing Paparazzi recorded is really cool because if you go back now and listen, you'll hear what I'm referring to. There's all these strings on the recording and it makes the pop music just sound like some other dimension is going on and it's beautiful. It was just amazing. But I got dropped from the label a few months later. While I was actually sitting there in the studio, Ron Fair, my producer at the time, he said to me, "You know Cathy, when I first came out to LA, I met with Bill Conti." Bill Conti is the guy who did the music for Rocky and so many other iconic movies and he said to him, "You know Ron, you're a really good songwriter but you're an amazing producer." And he said, "And I wound up making a living really as one of the best producers in the industry."

Cathy Heller:
And I remember that story and I didn't know three, four months later that I'd get dropped from the label, but I did and I wound up going and getting a quote unquote real job and I did so many things. I worked in a floral design studio. I thought, oh, if I can't do the thing I love that's creative, I'll do something else creative. As if it's going to scratch that same itch and it doesn't. I think we all have tried that. And then a friend of mine said, "If you're not going to do what you love, just make money." And I said, "Well how do you do that?" She said, "You do real estate." She said, "I know a guy who works in commercial real estate, he lives in Brentwood. You should go work for him."

Cathy Heller:
She introduces me and I start working in commercial real estate. I don't know the first thing about cap rates or mortgages and he says, "All you have to do is pick up the phone, call about 20 to 30 people a day and set some meetings for me and I'll give you good money if you can set meetings." And I wound up being pretty good at it and then I was there for two years and it was really like golden handcuffs because he was paying me a 150 grand to sit at this desk and make phone calls for him.

Bobbi Rebell:
Life is going by and you're not in the music business.

Cathy Heller:
No, I wasn't doing anything I loved. And I remember one day I was driving and I was crying so hard, I had to pull over to the side of the road and I thought to myself, I just, I don't know where I went, but I don't recognize myself. I am not this girl. I don't wear pantsuits. I don't blow my hair out. I don't talk this way. And I thought, gosh, we were talking about Tony Robbins before because he wrote the forward to your book and he always says, "Success without fulfillment is like the ultimate failure." And I felt like I couldn't breathe. I was like, I don't care that I'm driving a cute little Mercedes convertible. I don't care that I can eat sushi whenever I want. I don't feel like myself. I am so not me.

Cathy Heller:
And I decided I was going to quit and I quit my job, which I don't recommend to people. What I recommend to people now is that you build a runway and build a side hustle and validate your idea. And there's so many great tools and ways to do that so that you don't have to just jump. But I did. I couldn't take it. I just jumped.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was that like when you went in? You just went in one day and quit. Did you have overhead? Rent? You didn't have a family at the time, I assume.

Cathy Heller:
No, I was only 26. I quit and I thought to myself, oh by the time I run out of whatever tiny amount of savings I have from this job, I'm sure I'll be making money in music. And I saw that there was a whole world of musicians who were licensing their songs to TV shows, like Grey's Anatomy in One Tree Hill at the time and ads for McDonald's and Pepsi and Walmart. And I was like, what is this whole road? I wish I would've known about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm thinking that now. I never even thought about that whole world. And you're just observing it and there's a business behind that.

Cathy Heller:
Oh, it's a huge business. And this article, this article was really opening my eyes. It was telling me that people in this field were making hundreds of thousands of dollars because ad agencies were paying the artists 50, 60, $70,000 a pop for just the use, just the license, not the ownership to use the song in an ad. And television shows were spending something like five or $10,000 per song in an episode. Of course it's more for an ad because there might be one retail ad for a campaign versus 22 episodes and six songs an episode, but still five or 10 grand to have your song used in a show or $50,000 to have your song used in a Walmart spot.

Cathy Heller:
I was getting pretty excited about that and so I made that decision that I would do everything I could to figure out who were the clients, who were the people choosing songs at Paramount and NBC and Lion's Gate and ad agencies like Ogilvy and Deutsche and McCann. Who were those people? And what did they need? And I had never asked myself that question before. Up until that moment, I thought that you either did something you loved that came completely from your heart or you built someone else's dream and you sold out. I never really understood that you could marry the two things, that you could be who you were and feel authentic and at the same time you could know that someone else has a need and a want and that you could answer that with your gifts. And then that's really how you make a living.

Cathy Heller:
And it made so much sense. All of a sudden it's like the lights went on and I thought, wow. And I started telling songwriter friends of mine who were starving and working jobs that they hated, barista jobs and insurance jobs, and I said to them, "Look, have you ever looked at this this way?" And they said, "Oh my gosh, you're going to be such a sell out. You're going to hate the music you write." And I said, "Oh my God."

Bobbi Rebell:
They said that?

Cathy Heller:
Oh, they had so much resistance.

Bobbi Rebell:
Really?

Cathy Heller:
Because people, especially artists believe that if you're really an artist, then you're probably starving because you're so authentic. And that definitely doesn't account for people like Michelangelo who died with $50 million to his name before inflation. He would be a billionaire today. It doesn't account for people like John Williams who's written all the scores to Star Wars and Jaws and all of these movies. It doesn't account for any of the people you've ever supported. Whether it's somebody concert, you go to a piece of art. Why? Because all of the people that I just mentioned are people who absolutely care what their customer, what their audience needs and wants.

Cathy Heller:
And I realize that the difference between a hobby and a business is that a hobby is something you do for you. But a business has to have at its core, radical, radical, radical empathy because it means that something that I'm doing in this world, someone else is going to value and they're going to pay me for it. I got that. And so I got excited. I actually got excited to find out how I could serve and I started to do the next thing which I tell people to do, which is I think everybody has Michael Jordan talent at something. But we're really missing momentum. And what we need to do is validate our ideas and we need to get feedback by going out and talking to human beings about what they need.

Cathy Heller:
And so I started to do that really scary, scary thing, which was pick up the phone and call Warner Brothers and call all these ad agencies and call Disney and call brands and ask questions about what kinds of campaigns, what kinds of stories they were telling, what kinds of things they needed musically. What kinds of sonic palettes. Did they like strings? Did they like ukuleles? Is the story this year about sisters? Is it about female empowerment? Is it about being there for someone? And people I am telling you, they were so happy to tell me what they needed. They were so happy that for the first time in a long time somebody reached out and it was refreshing to them that I wasn't calling to pitch myself and to read a script and try to be impressive.

Cathy Heller:
I was calling to ask what I could do to use my talent to help and long story short, within 18 months I started making $100,000 writing songs for film and TV and then that grew second and third year I started making $300,000 a year and then I got written about in Variety and Billboard and the LA Weekly and when I say written about, it wasn't a two line blurb about this girl who was writing music for film and TV. It was a full page story, not just digitally but in print magazines with a picture of me telling the story about how I was taking matters into my own hands and I was really successful.

“A hobby is something you do for you. But a business has to have at it’s core radical empathy. Because it means that something that I am doing in this world someone else is going to value and they are going to pay me for it.”

Cathy’s Money Lesson:

Cathy Heller:
You've got to validate your idea and I think what most people do is they think about businesses backwards where they think to themselves, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to sit in my little cave and I'm going to come up with this line of cupcakes or this jewelry I'm going to do or I'm going to write the whole book before they ever test it. Before they ever figure out who would buy this jewelry? Who would eat these cupcakes? And maybe I should go and in tandem with this person who I'm making it for, maybe I should be getting their input, getting feedback and then weaving that feedback into my process. I think that people just don't realize that we make it harder than it needs to be and if you look at any successful company, they are testing ideas all the time. They are paying for your feedback. They are doing focus groups because it works.

Cathy Heller:
And then this sounds really simple but it's usually really hard. You have to go out and tell people about your idea. You have to make sure that you're going out in the world and you are letting people know about it and instead of saying, "Well, I'm going to think about this and noodle around on my about page for 40 hours." No, it's pick up the phone and make the call. Let them know what's so awesome about what you're doing as opposed to telling them, how you do what you do. People forget that we don't buy things, we buy feelings, we buy results. And so often when you ask someone, "Tell me about the thing that you're creating or service you're offering." People sort of get tongue tied.

Bobbi Rebell:
How many people do you think you called for every time you place a song in the early years before you were known?

Cathy Heller:
It's hundreds.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hundreds?

Cathy Heller:
Yeah. And when people would say no to me, and there were times that people not only said no, but said, "Don't ever send music like this. It's so mediocre." And instead of me being completely devastated, because obviously I wasn't completely devastated. I felt bad, I felt gross, I felt stupid sometimes. But I would take the feedback and I knew that I would give myself the grace to get better at it.

“I would take the feedback. And I would give myself the grace to get better at it.”

Cathy’s Money Tip:

Cathy Heller:
Yeah. My everyday money tip is something that I learned from Jen Sincero who wrote, You are a Badass. When she was on my podcast, she was living at 40 years old in a, she was living in a garage eating cans of tuna fish and she's like, something's got to change. And she did a bunch of self help stuff. And finally somebody said to her, why don't you write a letter to money? And she's like, what does that mean? And she wrote a letter to money and she was like, money, I hate you. Money, you're the reason for everyone's problems. And she realized at the end of the letter that she was carrying around feeling so much resistance to money because deep down money is something that she felt would make her less of a kind person. And that was a choice she didn't want to make. She didn't want to either have money and be a jerk or not have money, but she chose not having money if it meant she would have her integrity.

Cathy Heller:
And so I often tell people, "Why don't you write a letter to money?" Because sometimes what we find out is that at the root of it we might be sabotaging ourself because we might believe that money is something we feel shame around. If it's not shame for having it and being a jerk, sometimes it's shame like who am I to deserve to have good things? And when we can get to the root of that, it's very important because ultimately in life the results of our life, it has to do with what we really deep down want.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about where people can follow up and learn more about you and your podcast and your book and all things Cathy Heller.

“We don’t buy things. We buy feelings. We buy results.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Some of Cathy's best clients were the very ones who rejected her earlier in her career. When I asked Cathy about this after the interview, she explained that if she was being honest with herself, her work just was not that good initially when she pitched them. She had to get better at her craft. It's business. It's not personal. Early rejection is not forever rejection. Try to find out why your work wasn't accepted and then work on the work.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Cathy talked about how some of her musician friends called her a sellout. Look guys, making an honest living is not selling out. There is no glory in being a starving artist. It doesn't make you a better artist to not earn money. Nor by the way, is there any historical precedent for this over romanticized idea. Professional artists, Michelangelo, for example, died in 1564 at the age of 88. His net worth by many reports in the ballpark of $7 million.

Episode Links:

• Cathy's website - CathyHeller.com

• Cathy’s podcast Don’t Keep Your Day Job

• Cathy’s book Don’t Keep Your Day Job

Follow Cathy!

• Instagram - @cathy.heller

• Twitter - @NoDayJobs

• Facebook - @dontkeepyourdayjob

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Author, Podcast host and Entrepreneur magazine’s Editor in Chief Jason Feifer shares specifically how he raised his speaking fees, and confesses to a massive and very un-grownup recent financial blunder.

Jason’s Money Story:

Jason Feifer:
So I had done a lot of unpaid public speaking and then felt like it was time to actually start charging for this. And I didn't know how to because I was genuinely uncomfortable saying you should pay me for this. Actually, I just hadn't really done that. It's weird. I have been very successful in my career. I have a high profile job, but the ways that I've been paid have largely been these very established methods. I get a salary and that is it.

Jason Feifer:
And now here, I am telling someone, you have asked me to do a thing, I know that I could do it for free because I've done it before, and you probably know that too. But instead I'm going to set a very high fee and expect that you pay me that. And I was so uncomfortable doing that that I kept undervaluing myself. I had a friend who's in this industry who had told me what my value would be and I just literally couldn't say it to people. And so I was telling them half or a quarter of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did this evolve? So someone reaches out and says, Jason, we want you to speak at our events. What happens next?

Jason Feifer:
So here's how the conversation would start at the beginning of this. Somebody would invite me to their event and I would gush over the event. And I would tell them how excited I could be, and we would talk about literally everything except for money. And then, they would bring up the money, and then I would have a number in my head that I was supposed to say and that I couldn't say it, and I said something lower. And that is not what happens now. What happens now is that, very upfront, as soon as somebody reaches out to me, I say, do you have a speaker budget for this?

Jason Feifer:
And sometimes I will also say, do you ever speak your budget for this? I would do this for free if I could, but I have two kids and a very busy job and I can only do these kinds of things if there's compensation. Sometimes they don't. But oftentimes, they do. They say they have a budget and then they'll ask me what the budget is, or what my fee is, and I'll tell them. And I'm just really upfront about it because that is my worth, and I have over time taught myself that I am worth something and that there's no shame in being worth something. But it took a long time to get there.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was the tipping point?

Jason Feifer:
The tipping point was actually my wife getting extremely annoyed that I was leaving New York to go speak at these things and not getting as much as she thought I probably could get. But honestly, it was talking to other people and seeing what they were being paid and realizing that I was doing the same work, and I was I think better than a lot of them, and yet I was getting paid less. And that told me, most importantly, that I could stand up for my own value and I wouldn't put other people off.

Jason Feifer:
The thing is you don't know what the marketplace is and so you don't know what people are willing to pay and you are afraid. Everybody's afraid, I think, of showing themselves to be too full of hubris, and say I'm worth this crazy amount of money, and that people will look at you. It'd be like, no, you're actually just a jerk. But once you understand the marketplace and you get a sense of what people actually will pay, then you realize, Oh no, wait a second, I am valuable and I'm not being obnoxious in my value. I'm just being straightforward in my value.

Bobbi Rebell:
But how do you know what the marketplace is? And for example, in the market that you're talking about, which is speaking, which is very often doing keynote speeches, moderating panels, emceeing events. There's no database where everyone says what they make. How do you know?

Jason Feifer:
No, there's no database. I wish there was a database, but there are a lot of people who do it, or there are a lot of people who work with people who do it. And so, I just started asking everybody. Every single person who I interacted with at any event or just in the course of my work, we would start talking about speaking and I would just start asking them either, are you willing to share what you make or are you willing to share what the ballpark is for people in our range or whatever.

Jason Feifer:
Because the thing is that people do not volunteer this information upfront because I think oftentimes people are uncomfortable sharing numbers and being the one to broach that subject. But if you open up the door to it, a lot of people actually are fine sharing information because they understand that information is power for everybody. And if they share something with you, you'll share something with them. And just starting that conversation and having so many of those conversations, you start to triangulate what your value is or what other people did to get more valuable, which is also so important.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what was that? What did people do to get more valuable?

Jason Feifer:
Well, one of the things that they did is that they did a lot of add ons. That was not something that was intuitive to me. So you would go to an event and you'd find some fee, but then you would start upselling people. You'd be like, I'd be happy to come in the evening before and have a dinner with your sponsors or whatever. I'm around. Is that something you'd be interested in because we could just throw on an additional fee for that? And people are happy to do it. And that's how I've upped my fee often for taking time that I would be... What would else would I be doing? I might as well be having dinner with somebody and making a little extra money.

Jason Feifer:
But yeah, it was a lot of add ons. I found that the key to the add ons is not just that you're willing to do stuff, but that you're showing them that you're invested in them and invested in helping their whatever it is be as successful as possible. And so, here they have an asset. The asset is you, and there are two ways that asset could be, it could either somebody who just blows through and doesn't really care and just collects the check or, someone who says, hey, I've invested, I care, I want to do what's great for you. It's going to cost a little bit more, but I'm there and I want to do it. And I think that they also want to pay me just because they like me and that matters.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you handle it when someone says, I don't have the budget that you're asking for it.

Jason Feifer:
So I take it on a case by case. Is it something that I really want to do? Is there some other value that I can extract from them? Because sometimes, there is. I could, for example say, Oh, I'll do it for this lesser fee that you're offering, but can you buy copies of my book? Can you buy some subscriptions to the magazine for people who are attending? Can you give me the email addresses of everyone in attendance so that I can follow up with them and maybe get them to sign up for my newsletter or whatever. If there's something that makes sense for me for other reasons and it doesn't really put me out, I'll do it for a little less.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what is the lesson for our listeners from your story?

“I have over time taught myself that I am worth something and there is no shame in being worth something but it took a long time to get there.”

Jason’s Money Lesson:

Jason Feifer:
The lesson is lead with value and be confident in your value. I hear from people a lot, if I could just turn it around as me as a recipient of people pitching, I hear from people a lot who want a lot of things from me. They're pitching me because they want me to write about their company or they're pitching me because they want me to assign them a story or whatever. And a phrase that they use all the time, I literally just read about this in the magazine, a phrase they use all the time when they write to me is, let me know if you ever need a dot dot dot. Let me know if you ever need a writer. Let me know if you ever need a good story. Let me know if you ever need a customer service solution or whatever it is.

Jason Feifer:
And that is a terrible, terrible way to pitch yourself because it actually puts the sales onus on me, the person who's supposed to be sold to. Now, I have to research them and go back to them and say, Oh, you know what I actually do. Here's the thing; nobody ever just needs a blah, blah, blah. They never do. I am full of writers. I am full of stories. I don't need any more of them. So why would I take any more of them? Because if somebody comes to me and isn't shy about their value and is instead value forward, if they understand what I'm looking for and what kind of value they can provide to me, if they're upfront about that and good at communicating that, then I see the value and I want the value.

Bobbi Rebell:
Such great advice. Let's move on to your everyday money tip because, Jason, you're being very brave. You're going to admit to having done something that you're no longer doing, right?

“I was doing the same work and I think better than they were and I was being paid less. And that told me that I could stand up for my own value and I wouldn’t put other people off.”

Jason’s Money Tip:

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's move on to your everyday money tip because, Jason, you're being very brave. You're going to admit to having done something that you're no longer doing, right?

Jason Feifer:
Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
... that costs you thousands of dollars. Tell us your everyday money. Thousands of dollars. Oh my goodness.

Jason Feifer:
I know. I'm so embarrassed and annoyed that I have done this. It is the most basic piece of advice. Look at your statements... Go through them line by line, your credit card statements. There were some services that I had signed up for that I either forgot about or in one case it was a fairly expensive service that I thought I had signed up for a month of, but it turns out it was a recurring fee.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh, that's your worst nightmare. And can you get them to refund a few months back at least? Is there any recourse at that point? because you clearly weren't using it. Do you want to tell us what kind of thing it was? Was it a really expensive magazine, Jason?

Jason Feifer:
No, it was a social media management thing. It was $400 a month.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my God. Oh my God. How many months did this go on, Jason?

Jason Feifer:
Ten.

Bobbi Rebell:
You didn't catch a $400 charge for ten months?

Jason Feifer:
No, I didn't.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jason.

Jason Feifer:
I know, it's awful. It's awful. And now you're like, what kind of completely irresponsible financial person is this? And the answer is that I do too many things myself and I have a number of different income streams from speaking and podcasting and I'm just throwing it all into the same account and I just wasn't being mindful of where the number was. And so there was this giant hole being poked in my finances, and it was just pouring out $400 a month.

Jason Feifer:
I contacted the company and they were not really willing to be helpful, and I've gotten in touch with the head guy. And he just kept putting me off and putting me off, and I can tell what's happening, which is that he's hoping that he is going to wait me out, and that I'm going to just give up on this and forget about it. And so, I literally have on my reminders app that tells me all the things that I should be doing. One of them is to keep texting this guy.

Bobbi Rebell:
So this is unresolved right now. So you're not paying ongoing, but you've now paid 10 months, you paid $4,000 to this company?

Jason Feifer:
That's right, and I proposed a deal to them too, and I just haven't gotten the money back. I'm a little resolved to just eat it as a very, very expensive lesson in keeping tabs on your credit card forms. But I am also going to text this dude for the rest of my life demanding my money back.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think you can automate that. So Jason's going to un-automate his bill paying and he's going to automate, I'm sure there's an app you can download that can charge you another monthly fee to automatically text this guy. I'm going to text him for you, too.

“If you open up the door to it, a lot of people actually are fine sharing information because they understand that information is power for everybody. ”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

Like Jason did, work up the courage to ask, but also, as he did, keep it reasonable so you can get to the yes. People ask how I got such high profile people to be in my book, How To Be A Financial Grownup; those included Kevin O'Leary from Shark Tank, designer Cynthia Rowley, and even Tony Robbins. A lot of it was simply working up the courage to ask, but I also kept the ask really simple. It was two questions, similar format to this podcast. You'll have more success if you ask for something that's easier for them to do.

Financial grownup tip number two:

Jason talks about add ons and up-selling. Not only does this bring in more money, it also provides more value for clients. Most important, it often strengthens the bond and creates a relationship where you're probably going to have a better shot at getting hired again. Play the long game.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Jason’s website - www.jasonfeifer.com

Follow Jason!

• Instagram - @heyfeifer

• Facebook - @jasonfeifer

• Twitter - @heyfeifer

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Entrepreneur and author Teneshia Warner shares a childhood story of being paid less because she was female, and being told that it would always be that way- by her own grandmother. Teneshia also shares her advice on how to handle the dream bullies and previews her new book.

Teneshia’s Money Story:

Teneshia Warner:
All right, so The Big Stretch, I am thrilled about my second book. As you just mentioned, I'm the founder of The Dream Project, and I was able to take a lot of the key learnings from speaking to over 180,000 dreamers, iconic dreamers, as well as my own story, and put it in a book format of a 12 week dreamers bootcamp.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I can tell you the book literally lays it out in very easy to follow steps and there's a lot of accountability in the book. We're going to get to that soon, but I don't want to hesitate to get to your money story, because this is kind of an epic story. There's a big twist, it has to do with your great grandmother and a lesson she taught you. But the lesson she taught you was not the one that she intended to teach you. Go for it.

Teneshia Warner:
All right, so my money story, it actually dates back until I was a young kid. I was in the third grade, so think I'm eight or nine. I had an idea that I wanted to work the summer over at my great grandmother's farm. She owned a farm with hundreds of acres of land. And my uncle, who was also very younger, he's only five years older than me, I went to him, and his name was Gerald. I said, "Gerald, I have an idea. I think I can convince our grandma, [Osi 00:03:43], to allow us to work the farm and pay us versus pay other people."

Teneshia Warner:
So he was down for it. And I went over to my grandmother and I pitched her on this concept. You should keep the money in the family, let Gerald and I work for you this summer. And so I landed us a job, Bobbi. And we were working the farm. We would get to work around 4:30 AM. I would go with my grandmother and Gerald would go with my great grandfather. And for my great grandmother, we would go and get eggs out of the chicken coop, we would clean the porches, we would pick fresh vegetables, we had to cook dinner. I mean it was a long, long day. And then as for Gerald, he was doing things in the field like picking corn, all types of hard labor things.

Bobbi Rebell::
But you're both working.

Teneshia Warner:
We both are not only working, we are working hard. At the end of the day we're exhausted.

Bobbi Rebell::
So then comes payday.

Teneshia Warner:
Yes. So we do this for about two weeks and payday comes. Prior to this, I didn't negotiate how much she was going to pay us, I was just happy to have a summer job. And so she gave us these envelopes, and I didn't want to be rude and open it in front of her.

Teneshia Warner:
So we got in the car and we went back home. And we open our envelopes. So Gerald tore his envelope open and out comes this money that's folding. And then I tear my envelope open, and coins drop out.

Teneshia Warner:
And so I'm looking, and I'm like, wait a minute, something's wrong here. Where's my money? There was no money, there was not folding money in there. And so I went to my mom and I said, "I need you to take me back over to my great grandmother, Osi's house."

Teneshia Warner:
So she took me back and I said, "Hey you, you must have made a mistake because I don't have any folding dollars and I only have coins, so you didn't pay me the right amount." And we kind of went back and forth. She told me she was very clear on the amount that she paid me. And I kept pushing, pushing.

Teneshia Warner:
And then finally she said, "You know what, Neshia." She called me Neshia. "I'm not going to pay you the same amount that I paid Gerald, because the world is not going to do that." She said, "No matter what, girls do not make what boys make, and I'm not going to start doing that." Yes. So it really pierced my heart.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this was a statement, not a discussion.

Teneshia Warner:
This was a statement, yes. It was like, the end. And so I was really, really courageous with what I did next, Bobbi. I put my hands on my hip, I looked at her in the eyes and I said, "If you're not going to pay me what you pay Gerald, I need you to know I quit." And I took off running because she definitely believed in the rod and she would have spanked me, but it was worth it for me to stand up for myself.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what did Gerald say?

Teneshia Warner:
So my dearest Gerald. Gerald felt sorry for me. However, Gerald continued to work and collected that check for the rest of the summer.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. And that folded money. And what did your mom say? And did you have any further discussions as you got older about this with any of the people involved?

Teneshia Warner:
So my mom, she's just awesome. I told her how I felt, and she told me that I did not have to go back and work there, that if I really wanted to quit, that I could. Hindsight looking back, I realized she really wanted to teach me a lesson, and she knew that that was going to give me an experience to stand up for myself and to actually demand my value, which leads me to, that's why it's my money story because one of my biggest lessons I took away from that, and that's, it's okay to demand your value and stand by that.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the amazing thing is, that was not the lesson that your great grandmother was teaching you.

Teneshia Warner:
Absolutely not.

Bobbi Rebell:
She is from a different era, and we love our grandmas, but that was not the lesson that we want to teach people today. What is your lesson for our listeners from that story?

“It’s ok to demand your value and stand by that.”

Teneshia’s Money Lesson:

Teneshia Warner:
So my lesson for your listeners is, if you are a small business owner, and or, if you're working in corporate America, there comes a time that you have to be extremely comfortable with what you bring to the table and the value that's associated with that, and willing to negotiate based on that value, and not compromising that.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing in the book that I've asked you to talk about as your money tip, your everyday money tip is, how to do a dream detox specifically. If there are people in your life that are what you call a dream bullies, what do you do specifically to get rid of those people? Do you just ghost them? What do you do?

“When you have a dream and you have a big idea, it is important that you safeguard your dream.”

Teneshia’s Money Tip:

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing in the book that I've asked you to talk about as your money tip, your everyday money tip is, how to do a dream detox specifically. If there are people in your life that are what you call a dream bullies, what do you do specifically to get rid of those people? Do you just ghost them? What do you do?

Teneshia Warner:
Well, I definitely wouldn't say ghost them. Well, first, I think it's very important to know that when you have a dream, and you have a big idea, especially when you really originally get that idea, it's important that you safeguard your dream. So you have to become aware of who is in your circle.

Teneshia Warner:
Do you have a circle of dream champions? Champions reflect back to you the best of who you're becoming, they're going to reflect back to you the possibility that this dream can become a reality. And or, you have dream bullies. And dream bullies are those that are within our circle that potentially just cannot see the vision that you've been given for that dream. Sometimes your dream bully can be the people that are the closest to you, that actually love you the most, and they will actually try to protect you as you stretch to become more uncomfortable and to step outside of that comfort zone, you will find that you start to disrupt the comfort zone of sometimes the people that are really close to you.

Teneshia Warner:
Those individuals can sometimes want to protect you. Instead, they're becoming a dream bully. They're working against your vision. So for me, my best friend in the whole world is my grandmother. Not my great grandmother, but my grandmother. Her name is [Noretha Hearns and 00:09:24], and she is the biggest dream bully I've ever encountered.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness.

Teneshia Warner:
And so I've had to learn, when I have a big idea, and I have a concept, I don't share those visions with my grandmother because she's not going to support me in having them turn out. So for the listeners, how do you do a dream detox and how do you protect yourself from the bullies? Well, number one, first you need to identify who they are. Second, you need to alter your conversations accordingly. That's not the place to go and share your next big idea, that's not the place you call where you want to know, do I continue to go or do I stop?

Teneshia Warner:
And so it's not about cutting out dream bullies completely out of your life. I don't want you sort of ghosting everybody and then saying Teneshia and Bobbi told you to tell everybody peace out. No, that's not what we're saying. However, I will say it's about becoming conscious, and aware, and protecting your ideas and your dreams accordingly. And it may mean altering your relationships with the person, especially as you're in a season of birthing a new dream. You may not find yourself hanging out with the old best friend where you know you guys used to gossip, or you weren't doing anything productive. Maybe that's not the person that you will be spending the majority of your time with in this new season of bringing your dream to reality.

Teneshia Warner:
One of the things that you talk about in your book also is doing a time audit. Absolutely. And, Bobbi, you and I were just talking. You talked about the fact that your book was in Cosmo, or in these business magazines. It wasn't that it just appeared there, but you did a lot of hard work. And so the hard work that goes into where you invested your time. So when you have this idea and this dream, you need to also do a time audit to say what time can you get back, and work that time for you and your dream.

“Your big idea and your dream, I can 100% bet it is not going to dwell within the zip code of your comfort zone. You are going to have to stretch beyond that, and it is probably going to take some radical action.”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

Bobbi Rebell:
I totally related to tenacious experiences with dream bullies. I probably had more bullies, as she calls it, than supporters when I announced, a few years ago, that I was going to write a book with candid and personal money stories from super successful people while working full time in media, with three kids and a husband, and of course a dog.

Bobbi Rebell:
People were not only skeptical, some made really hurtful comments, and I know there was chatter behind my back at work. It was pretty bad. They really thought I would never pull it off. I had some supporters, don't get me wrong, but I wish I had Teneshia in my corner back then. But she's right, sometimes it's better to just not share your plans with them early on, especially if you kind of know they're not going to be supportive.

Financial grownup tip number two:

Do a time audit, kind of like those weight loss diaries where if you're write it down, you see what's going on, and that act in and of itself will change your behavior, and you'll have a better focus and be able to better allocate your time. You become more accountable. Don't necessarily though, share it with those dream bullies.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Teneshia’s website - egamigroup.com

• Teneshia’s new book The Big Stretch

Follow Teneshia!

• Instagram - @teneshiajwarner

• Facebook - @teneshiajwarner

• Twitter - @teneshiajwarner

• LinkedIn - @teneshiajackson

• Pinterest - @dreamcreative

Follow Egami Group!

• Instagram - @egamigroup

• Facebook - @EgamiConsulting

• Twitter - @egamigroup

• LinkedIn - @egami-consulting-group

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Getting a huge salary jump is awesome, but even with a big jump Paychecks & Balances podcast host, Rich Jones had some lessons to learn when his compensation skyrocketed. The entrepreneur behind the Show Starter shares his experiences, and how we can all get not just the best pay but also the best jobs. 

Rich’s Money Story:

Rich Jones:
Yeah, so by day I work at Google. I've been there for over five years. I'm moved to a tech startup called ScrollMotion, and it was the shortest role in my career, I'd only been there for about nine months. I actually got an email from a recruiter at Google and I thought it was spam. Even though my ultimate goal was to move to a big tech company, I kind of had this self-doubt of, "Oh wow, they're reaching out to me. Is this really a real role? Why are they reaching out to me in New York when this position is based in California?"

Rich Jones:
I went through the interview process and it probably took about three to four months, but then ultimately I ended up getting the job. I made the transition from New York City to California. And part of what I realized throughout the process that I think is really important, one is the importance of negotiation. And I learned this more for the role that I had at the tech startup because I won't say how, but I came across how much the person in that role before me made and it was a lot more than I had actually asked for.

Rich Jones:
And part of what I did not consider is that I worked at a nonprofit. Nonprofits typically pay a little bit less and when I saw an increase, I was so focused on one, getting out of that nonprofit because I realized that role wasn't for me, that I had this fear of not wanting to mess up the opportunities. I said, "Hey, this is a pay increase, this is great." Only to get there and find out that I actually could have asked for a lot more.

Rich Jones:
And what I've learned from tech companies like Google and Facebook, they really do try to do right by people, and instead of kind of negotiating people downward, they want to make sure that they bring people in at a fair market rate because they ultimately don't want to lose these people because the cost of hiring and losing someone is so high. Part of what I learned in the process is the importance of negotiation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell me more about the actual moment you got the job offer. Did they say the number first or did you?

Rich Jones:
They said the number first and it far exceeded the number that I had in mind.

Bobbi Rebell:
Was this a phone conversation? What, where, how is this happening?

Rich Jones:
It was a phone conversation. I was ready to go back and forth and I had my numbers in mind, didn't realize that I was undercutting myself in the process and they made an offer that honestly had me floored. It was a no brainer.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, but did you ask for more?

Rich Jones:
I did not because it far exceeded what I was even looking for and I felt completely comfortable about the offer. The lesson here is having a number in mind and I made sure that I did research when I looked at this role to make sure that I wasn't going to get undercut. When they came back with a number that was far greater than what I had in mind, I could've went back and forth with them. And there are situations where I would say, "Hey, ask for more," but it was so much greater than what I thought it was going to be. Everything else about it made sense that it made sense for me to ultimately accept the role.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you find out the data about the previous employee that they were making more and about how much more was it, like a percentage-wise? Give me some sort of scale.

Rich Jones:
Oh, it was about 20 to $25,000 more. It was one of those things where I was doing some research in the system for a project and I saw what they were actually making. And I had this Wow! Moment of, "This is not good. I could have asked for a lot more." Part of what I've learned in my current role, especially because I work in staffing or worked in staffing for a number of years, even if I probably had asked for more for the role at Google I probably wouldn't have gotten it. Because I think one of the other mistakes I made is that at the time they would ask you what you were making today, and companies sometime anchor on that. Once we tell them what you're making, they just try to do a percentage increase. One thing I probably would have done differently is not actually share that salary information and just said come back-

Bobbi Rebell:
You shared it before they gave you the offer?

Rich Jones:
I did, I did. I did. And more states now are implementing policies or laws where companies can not ask for salary information specifically for that reason. I actually encourage people, if you're talking to a company and they ask what you're making today, that you not tell them that actual number and see what they come back with. If they come back with a number that's lower or even if it's a number that's right where you want to be, try the approach of, "Hey, I'm super excited about this offer. If we can get to X number, I'll be willing to sign this offer today." And that recruiter is incentivized to go back and see what they can do to ultimately get you that number that they want.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you to take action after getting this information, did you go ask for a raise?

Rich Jones:
No, I did not ask for a raise because for me, my ultimate goal was to move to a company like Google or Facebook and it happened sooner than I expected and that's why I say it caught me off guard and I'm like, "Wow, they're reaching out to me." Because to me it was, "I'll get a couple of years of experience, I'll go and apply. Not this company will find me on LinkedIn because my profile is optimized and then contact me." I'd say over the course of three years, my total compensation increased by 200 to 250%.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Rich Jones:
And while at that-

Bobbi Rebell:
Now wait, let me ask you, was that prompted by you becoming a better negotiator because you now have this information or they're just a generous company and that's kind of what they gave you?

Rich Jones:
I think it was more so prompted by things like updating my LinkedIn profile so that they could find me in the first place because there is applying for jobs, but then there's also recruiters who were out there every day looking for talent, scouring LinkedIn. I was that recruiter. Part of the insight knowledge I had was how a recruiter would go about looking for somebody who has a particular set of skills.

Rich Jones:
A big part for me was updating my LinkedIn profile so that if a recruiter was looking for someone who had a combination of HR experience and recruiting experience, and they had this profession in human resource certification, my profile would pop up. While it wasn't as heavy on the negotiation side, there were things that I did to optimize my profile and optimize myself so that if people were looking for someone with my skills, I would pop up in that search and I attribute it a lot more to that.

Rich Jones:
I think part of what's helped me maximize my raises and my increase, it's not so much that I had to negotiate a higher pay, it's that I documented my value and I documented the things that I did to bring more people in, the things that I did to a higher level of impact and then that was ultimately factored into my bonus percentage, which is on a scale. And that was ultimately factored into the salary increase, which is also one scale. It's funny going from being an individual contributor to a manager and then having to go through that same process, where if an employee didn't tell me all the things they did, I had so many things going on so I could not remember everything that they did.

Rich Jones:
But there would be times where they'd say, "Hey, I did this and I did that." And I'd be like, "Oh yeah, you did do this, and you did do that. You should be an exceeds expectation, versus a meets expectations." A lot of it is on the individual to make sure that they're documenting and that they're in a position to be able to show the value that they've added. I had it for that conversation, but also if an opportunity came up outside of the company, I had those things documented, which would then become answers for interview questions or things that I could put in my LinkedIn profile to further show my value and that I'm a high performer.

“I actually encourage people, if you are talking to a company and they ask what you are making today that you not tell that number and see what they come back with.”

Rich’s Money Lesson:

Rich Jones:
There's an article that came out from Glassdoor, a couple of years ago. For someone starting at a salary of $50,000, the difference in not negotiating a $5,000 increase when they're first starting could be the difference of $600,000 over the course of their working career. What people don't think about, we talk about compound interest when it comes to your savings account or when it comes to stocks and investing, but we don't talk about the compound effect of negotiating a higher salary.

Rich Jones:
Because if you start by negotiating up, then every salary that you negotiate going forward or every increase that you get going forward is going to be a lot higher. There are people, they're actually scared to negotiate because they think that the company's going to pull the offer. And I can tell you from being on the employer's side, no recruiter or no company is going to rescind offer because you asked for something. In fact, we expect you to ask for something.

“If you start by negotiating up, then every salary that you negotiate going forward or every increase that you get going forward is going to be higher.”

Rich’s Money Tip:

Rich Jones:
A couple of apps that I really love today. One is Tiller. It allows you to connect your bank accounts and I'm someone that loves spreadsheets. And they have these templates and these customized spreadsheets where if you connect your accounts, it'll automatically pull in the information. You can see what you're spending on by category, if you're over or under or at budget. And there's also a feature where I get an email daily that anytime there's been a transaction, whether money coming in or money going out, I see that first thing in the morning.

Rich Jones:
And there've been times where I've said, "Wow, did I really just spend that much on food?" Or, "Wow, I forgot that I had that subscription." That's one service that I use to kind of see where my spending is going. But the other service that I really like, it's called Truebill, and initially this started out as an app that would monitor all your subscriptions and tell you where you could have a subscription canceled, where they can negotiate on your behalf to bring that subscription costs down.

Rich Jones:
And just even today before we recorded this interview, I've realized that I was getting double-billed for a particular subscription and now I'm in the process of having them resolve it for me so I don't have to deal with the process of calling in and talking to multiple people and going back and forth and sending emails. Pairing up apps, one, I have something that tells me where my money is going on a day to day basis, which keeps me sharp. And then two, I have a service that's monitoring my subscriptions, but it's also giving me a breakdown of how I'm spending for the month. And I can see that category by category and it kind of tells me if I'm doing too much, if I'm going over budget and I found both of those to be super helpful with each other.

“I can tell you from being on the employer side,  no company is going to rescind the offer because you asked for something. In fact we expect you to ask for something. ”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

Manage up. Remember Rich, said to prepare for performance reviews, that's just part of it. This is all about communication with your supervisors. Those are the people who decide how much you get paid. Don't assume they know and in some cases even understand what you do and how valuable you have become to the company.

Financial grownup tip number two:

I love what Rich said about the very first salary being an anchor to ongoing salary negotiations. He is 100% correct, but at the same time, don't assume you are worth more than they're willing to pay. With the first job, you don't always bring as much to the table as you will in future jobs. Yes, you probably went to school and studied, but let's face it, in most cases the companies are also going to put a lot of resources into training you. Just factor in what you will learn as an employee when you are in that negotiation and be thoughtful about your asks.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Rich’s website - paychecksandbalances.com/

Follow Rich!

• Instagram - @paybalances

• Facebook - @paychecksandbalances

• Twitter - @PayBalances

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Cate Luzio had no problem getting her boss to agree to give her a raise, but was caught off guard when asked how much she wanted. Cate shares exactly how she was able to come back with her number in just 24 hours, and how we can all get paid as much as possible. 

Cate's money story:

So I spent many years in corporate investment banking, but a large stint of it at JP Morgan. I was living in London, I was already at a managing director level, I was managing a big business within the corporate bank. I was, as women do, getting ready to prepare for that year end discussion and to ask for a raise. I go into my boss's office who was amazing and as I'm starting to already defend my accomplishments and list them out within 30 seconds of me speaking, he says, "Cate stop talking." I thought, "Oh, God, what did I do wrong?".

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I would be worried.

Cate Luzio:
I thought he was going to say, "You're out.".

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, no.

Cate Luzio:
And then he said, "What's your number?"

Bobbi Rebell:
Meaning?

Cate Luzio:
Meaning what's the number?

Bobbi Rebell:
How much do you want?

Cate Luzio:
Exactly. Because, one, he didn't have time to waste, and I will tell you that. And two, he was like, "Let's get to the point. You're going to come in here and give me all your accomplishments, but I'm your manager, I know your accomplishments, I know what you've done for the business. So tell me how much more money you want to make." And I had never even thought of the number, which is embarrassing to one extent and then proves a point to the other around that women often are ready to just talk about, list out what they've done and how they've made a value to the company versus going in and asking for that number and then being prepared to defend why they've asked for that. And so, he said, "I give you 24 hours and you come back to me with a number.".

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, no pressure. So, what do you do with that 24 hours?

Cate Luzio:
I knew that my team, more broadly the leadership team, were all a bunch of men, and that was fine, they were great, but I couldn't ask them. I had come from a different business about a year prior to that within JP Morgan, but I knew I should be making a big jump. So, what did I do? I called a bunch of my guy friends at other banks. I just said, "Here's the situation, I just need to know what you make."

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, let me just ask you. Did you just randomly pick up the actual, I hate to say this, the actual phone, meaning you didn't text them, you didn't email them.

Cate Luzio:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
But you were picking up the phone.

Cate Luzio:
Picked up the phone.

Bobbi Rebell:
And putting them on the spot.

Cate Luzio:
Putting them on the spot. And I had done that throughout my career. I think women don't realize this, and I think it's a lot in the banking sector, that when you get your bonus everyone's pounding their chest, like, "This is what I got." And guys do. They tell each other what they make. So they benchmark early on. And I had been doing that early on in my career. And then as I got more senior it was like, "Oh, well I'm getting more jobs and I'm getting these big promotions. This is great." And I had forgotten about I should be getting paid for what I do.

And so that's what I did. I spent that night calling and talking. And I remember I met with one of the guys that I knew at a big bank competitor, and hashing it out. And walked in the next day with the number.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let me just stop you there. What was your take on the numbers they were getting? What did you learn just from those numbers about where you are relative to them?

Cate Luzio:
Oh, much lower. I mean considerable amount lower. And again, remember, I think it didn't have to do with the company not wanting to pay me. It was commensurate with I had been at the firm for a while. You don't normally get huge bumps and raises unless you come from another firm. If you've made a jump that normally happens with your bonus or your variable compensation. So that was not an expectation that someone would walk in and get a very large raise. I knew that from the hundreds of people that I had managed.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you hadn't asked.

Cate Luzio:
And I had never asked. A part of me thinks, "Oh, I should've asked." And then part of me thinks, "I'd only been in that particular role for less than a year. So, was it warranted?" Yes, because not only of my performance, but my potential to continue to perform in that role, and bigger roles. And so, we hear it a lot, men are promoted on potential, women are promoted on performance. This wasn't even about promotion. This was about getting a fair compensation.

And so, when I did that benchmarking and talking to my male peers, I realized I was making a lot less. And so the next day I went in and he said, "Do you have your number?" I said, "Yeah, this is my number." He said, "It's not unreasonable. I don't know what we can do, but it's not unreasonable." To which I walked out thinking that's a huge win itself that I didn't come in and him say that's absolutely never going to happen, which, by the way, that happens quite a bit.

And so, three months later when you actually get your comp information and your bonus, they hand you a paper, and that has everything written. And so, I have no poker face. And so I immediately pull up the paper in front of my face, because I don't want him to see if I'm crying or if I'm smiling. Because if it was going to be a bad number I was going to be really upset. And the number was not the number that I asked for, it was even more.

So, as I'm putting the paper down, I'm smiling. What was even better was my boss was smiling even bigger than I was. And his exact words were, "You perform for us, we perform for you." He said, "This is probably never going to happen again in your career unless you leave and go to another firm, but you've demonstrated not only performance but potential and we value that."

“Don’t just go into any or these discussions with a list of your accomplishments. Be prepared first to demonstrate why you are valuable to the company. And also know your worth. Have that number going in.”

Cate’s money lesson:

So the lesson is don't just go into any of these discussions with a list of your accomplishments. Be prepared first to demonstrate why you are valuable to the company. And also know your worth. Right? So already have that number going in, because the worst thing that can happen is, one, they quiz you on why you should get that money or that promotion. Then you're ready, you've got your accomplishments, you've got what you've done for the business, you've got how you've demonstrated your value.

Cate Luzio:
But also what's the worst that can happen? They say no. And then you decide whether you can live with that no, you continue to fight for that compensation or that role or that promotion, or you go elsewhere.

Bobbi Rebell:
Have you ever gotten a no, and how did you deal with it if you did?

Cate Luzio:
Oh, absolutely gotten a no. Listen, companies are under lots of constraints, they're under huge budgetary issues, so there are a lot of nos. And I've had to give a lot of nos to people too. I think the way I combated that or came back from that was, "Is this still the firm that I want to work for? Is their rationale correct? Do I get that? Do I look at the overall earnings of the company and where I fit into that?".

Cate Luzio:
So, when you work for a large publicly traded company that's in the Fortune 150, they have a lot of mouths to feed. But you still, at the end of the day, have to feel comfortable with the answer that they give. And, for me, I never left a company because they didn't pay me. So I looked at where else there were value they were adding in my life and my career. Was there a career path? Were they providing opportunities? And that was big for me around the delivering of those other opportunities, but also investing in me as an employee, making me a better asset to them.

Bobbi Rebell:
I like that. Because sometimes people might work for, let's say, a startup or something and there just isn't the money.

Cate Luzio:
Absolutely.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you have to look at other things.

Cate Luzio:
You have to look at other things and what drives you. If money is the only thing that drives you, then that's not going to be the place. But there's the role, there's are you managing a team? Are you part of other projects within the organization? Are you moving up quickly, as you mentioned, like in a startup or even in intrepreneurial environment within a big company where it's not just about the compensation? I do firmly believe you have to be fairly compensated, but I think there's a lot of factors that play into that.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. Now you are well compensated. I should say, when you worked for other people you were well com... Now you work for yourself. When you worked for other people you were certainly well compensated. You could certainly do the shopping that you wanted to do and have the wardrobe that you want to have. But just because you have the money doesn't mean you should spend it all on clothing. And that brings us to a everyday money tip from you. Because this is really interesting. We talk a lot about saving money because you have to or to reach certain goals. Sometimes you're saving money because maybe spending it just doesn't make sense.

“I decided to self fund. I wanted to look at my members of the community of Luminary as my investors, versus maximizing value for an investor.”

Cate's everyday money tip:

As someone who did make quite a bit of money, and I actually reinvested a lot of that money into my company because I self funded, one of the things I knew is that my disposable income I needed to make it very small, because I was investing it into the company. And I was a big shopper. I needed retail therapy. So I actually now rent most of my clothes. I do it mostly with Rent the Runway, but it's exciting to see all of these other new players out there because it gives you so much more variety and diversity of your clothes. And for me it ends up really saving a lot of money for me. Also, I get the thrill of shopping online or even in person because they have stores, but without the guilt of spending all that money and then wasting it because I wear those clothes one time and then never wear them again.

Bobbi Rebell:
I second that. I actually also use Rent the Runway, and I find that to be very true. And I also think you can wear things. Sometimes fashions can be a little bit silly, like we had weird sleeves happening a year ago. And you can try that and you don't have to own that because we know some things are just not going to have staying power. Right?

Cate Luzio:
Absolutely. And some things you may think one day they flatter you and the next they don't. So, why keep it in your closet?

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial Grownup tip number one:

Cate was able to get the intel on her number in just 24 hours, because she had spent years building strong relationships. To do a quick turnaround, you need to have everything in place, and to do that you need to be playing the long game when it comes to those relationships.

Financial Grownup tip number two:

One of my favorite parts of this interview is when Cate got really candid talking about how she deals with nos. First of all, if Cate Luzio is getting no’s, we can all feel a lot better about our setbacks. But she never talks about storming out or being confrontational. Instead, it's about taking a big picture look and being tuned in to why that no happened. It could be you and your performance, and if so, you need to be self-aware enough to own that and to take action.

Sometimes we all have so much ra-ra, go for it in our lives that we're not really that honest when maybe we aren't deserving of that. I'm not saying that's true all that often, but it could sometimes be true. And we need to be realistic about whether the assessment of us might have some good points. But it can also be things that are out of your control, having to do with where the business is financially. That's not really on you, but it's still your reality. Keep your cool, don't make brash emotional decisions.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Cate’s website - https://www.luminary-nyc.com/

• Cate’s Podcast - Come Sit At Our Table

Follow Cate!

• Instagram - @BeALuminary

• Facebook - @BeALuminary

• Twitter - @BeALuminary

• LinkedIn - @BeALuminary

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Author and workplace strategist Lindsey Pollack shares a negotiation story with a big twist and a surprise ending. Plus how we often fail ourselves in negotiations by not using simple techniques when putting together deals, and how we can learn to up our game. 

In Lindsey's money story you will learn:

So my money story goes back to before I wrote all those books and had the lovely credentials that you shared. About 10 years ago, I was speaking on college campuses to students about getting jobs and I really wanted to elevate my business to the next level. And so I wanted to connect with a large brand that would help me raise my image and get into the corporate market.

And through a connection of a connection of a connection, I ended up having the opportunity to pitch a major social network. And my pitch to them was that I wanted to run a series of webinars to campus career centers to teach them how to use this social network and get their students to use it for their career success. You can probably guess which network it was.

And I had no platform. I had no reputation. I had nothing to offer. And so what I did -

Let me just ask you, how had you even been connected to them?

I was so set on a couple of different companies wanting to work with that I asked everyone that I knew, "Hey, do you know anyone at this company?" And it took one full year, Bobbi and finally, a friend of a friend worked out in Silicon Valley and said, "I know someone there, I'm willing to make an introduction." So I asked until I finally got a yes.

So you had already invested quite a bit of time and energy in this and a lot of tenacity. Okay. So now you get your moment, keep going.

Okay. So I got my moment and I wrote up a huge fancy proposal that I was really proud of and I thought, "How am I going to price this?" They don't know me. I did not want to do it for free. And so what I did, was I came up with two tiers. I came up with the tier that was a very, very low investment for this company to pay me to start this webinar and run it.

And then I came up with a really, really high number and said, "If I can train 5000 people in two months. If 5000 people signed up to take this webinar in two months, you'll pay me this number." And they agreed to it because they basically had nothing to lose because the first number was really small.

Well I mean you've transferred all of the risk. You're taking on all the risk if the project were to not go well. They basically don't have much at stake. The payment from them would be so small. But of course, you are getting huge reward if it goes well which of course I know it does. But keep going.

It went well. I did everything humanly possible to get 5000 people to sign up for those webinars. And I do want to give credit that I had a very warm introduction. So I think that network and connection really helped. But I worked like crazy to get those people to sign up. I made the number. And the best part of the story is that I continued to work with that company for six more years. So I think by proving myself at the beginning, I was able to start the relationship off right and it truly was a game-changer for my business.

In Lindsey’s money lesson you will learn:

I think there are two lessons. One is to be really clear on what you want and if you get the introduction you want or if you get the opportunity you want, how are you going to turn it into something big. I think a lot of people say they want success or they want to write a book or they want to get their script produced. But once you have the opportunity in front of you, what are you going to do to make sure that you get a yes. And I can't say I knew at the time that this would be such a lesson but it was so empowering to know that I was willing to put everything on the table and work tenaciously, as you said, to get it. So know what you want and really think about how you can get the other side to say yes. Even if it means that you have to put some risk on the table.

You also mentioned the term a warm introduction. Can you talk more about how that came about, how that comes about, how people can get that more, and the importance of the kind introduction that you get? The nuance there.

Absolutely. And Bobbi, you are such a good practitioner of this generously making introductions for people you know and trust. I think that it's really easy to connect with someone today, whether it's on a social network, whether it's sending an email, finding somebody's phone number. That's easy. What's harder is standing out from the crowd. And I think the way to do that is when you have a person, a human being, who knows and trusts you who always knows and is trusted by the person you want to meet.

So I don't think it was just me and my proposal that got that company to say yes. I think it was the fact that someone who they trusted and vouched for me was able to make that introduction. You know we live in a world of a lot of connections but that true trusted connection, I think is more valuable than ever. That to me is a warm connection.

In Lindsey's everyday money tip you will learn:

I am laughing that my money story is about how great of a negotiator I am because it took me so long to learn how to improve my negotiation skills and my best negotiation tip is silence.

So why? We let there be a moment of silence there so everyone could think about that.

Silence is really uncomfortable. And I'm so glad you let that moment linger because it shows how much anyone wants to desperately make that silence go away. And so what I used to do, when I first started out as a speaker or as an author, was say something like, "Bobbi, the price of my speech is $1000." And if there was a nanosecond of silence, I would say, "But if you only want to pay 750 that's okay." Because I was so uncomfortable with the silence.

So letting a number sit there. Asking somebody, even if you're on the phone with your mobile phone provider saying, "Is that the best you can do? Can you offer me a different rate?" We jump in too quickly and say, "Or not, that's okay. Forget it." Letting that silence linger is so hard and has been a huge challenge for me but it is my best money tip to not talk myself down or lose an opportunity to get a better price because I'm not willing to sit with silence.

Can you recall any time that was super effective using that technique? Can you give us an example?

Oh, everyday when I'm negotiating for my business. As I've gotten more successful as a speaker, I've raised my prices. And probably the hardest one to do is to raise a price on an existing valued client. But over time, it's really a necessity to grow your business.

I had to say to someone just the other day, "I've raised my prices by 15%. I know that we've always been at X number. The new number is this." And I so wanted to say, "But if you don't want to pay that's okay." Or, "I know that might be challenging." But I just said it, I let it sit there and the person said, "Okay."

In My Take you will learn:

Financial Grownup Tip number one: Lindsey talked about warm introductions and I could not agree more. But how do you get started? Well the most important thing is to reach out and ask people in your industry or even just friends and family and just casual conversation to tell you more about what they're working on, what their goals are, and lead into how you might be able to help them. Don't be overly aggressive. But be creative. Are there things that you could do? And then follow up. And this is the most important thing. Don't ask them for anything in return.

The crazy thing that I have found is that the people that have come forward on my behalf and made introductions for me, aren't always the ones that I have helped. It's not always linear. In fact, it rarely is. Very often the people helping me are people that aren't necessarily in my closest circles. They're people that I've met through my life that I've stayed in touch with. Maybe a quick email every six months, a quick coffee date once or twice a year. That kind of thing. And just being in touch with them and being considerate of what they're going through and what their needs are, maybe they'll think of you when an opportunity that's appropriate for you comes about. Or maybe they'll be there for you if you want an introduction to someone that they know. Be patient. If you give, you will receive.

Financial Grownup Tip number two: Lindsey's book is so full of great tips for us. She shared a couple, but I wanted to give a little bit more. So here are some other tips from Lindsey.

First of all, if you can work up the courage and feel comfortable and if you don't then get comfortable, do this, work up to this. Ask your boss to CC you on emails even when you don't need to be directly involved. It's going to give you insights into things that are going on in your company beyond your immediate duties, give you a wider perspective.

Lindsey also suggests sending video emails on occasion instead of writing out what you want to say. Just film a quick video and attach it to an email. It can be very effective.

One more final tip: Remix your meetings. Just try sitting in different seats than you usually do and that could actually change the group dynamic and maybe the group think. Come up with some different ideas or just give you a little more energy in your day.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Check out Lindsey's website - www.LindseyPollak.com

• Lindsey's new book The Remix

Follow Lindsey!

• Instagram - @LindseyPollak

• Facebook - @LindseyPollakAuthor

• Twitter - @LindseyPollak

• LinkedIn - @LindseyPollak

• YouTube

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Entrepreneur and Investor Barbara Corcoran explains why she believes spending money in a deliberate way even before you earn it is a smart business strategy, and shares the story of her first really big investment. And yes, she committed to it before she had the money.

 In Barbara’s money story you will learn:

• How she bought her first house at age 29 (which had 8 bedrooms!)

• The importance of discussing big purchases with a significant other

• How Barbara saved $7,500 in three months

In Barbara’s money lesson you will learn:

• How she motivates herself to save money

• Why she chooses to ignore rational and take risks

• Her advice on committing to a goal

In Barbara’s everyday money tip you will learn:

• Why she spends money before she has it

• How she puts herself under pressure in order to produce financial results
  

In My Take you will learn:

• Why it's always good to listen to different opinions and take advice from successful people

• Two negotiation tips that will save you money and help your career

Bobbi and Barbara also talk about:

• Chef Boyardee and Ramen noodles, the quick dinner that helped save Barbara money and reminded Bobbi of her childhood

EPISODE LINKS:

• Listen to Barbara Corcoran's podcast Business Unusual here, and on iTunes

• Watch Barbara give more business advice on the multi-Emmy award winning show Shark Tank on ABC
  
  

Follow Barbara!

• Twitter: @BarbaraCorcoran

• Instagram: @BarbaraCorcoran

• Facebook: @TheBarbaraCorcoran

Entrepreneur and Investor Barbara Corcoran explains why she believes spending money in a deliberate way even before you earn it is a smart business strategy, and shares the story of her first really big investment. And yes, she committed to it before she had the money. In this Financial Grownup podcast episode you’ll learn how to commit to your goals. #Goals #GoalSetting

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

TRANSCRIPTION

Barbara Corcoran:
I always spend money I don't have. If I see money coming in new receivable, three months out, I committed that day, what I'm going to spend it on, and I start spending it even before it arrives.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup and you know what? Being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a Financial Grownup, one lesson and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hello, my Financial Grownup friends, brace yourself Barbara Corcoran is here and she is going to give it to us straight up, no beating around the bush and she said some things that frankly I was pretty surprised with. They go against almost everything that I've been taught about building a solid financial foundation for your life, for your business, but she made it work. I'm still not sure I could make it work for me, but I'm thinking about it because she makes a good case and I'm interested to hear what you guys think after you hear her interview.

Bobbi Rebell:
So glad you are here. As I said, this episode is a really big one, so if you're new, you're joining it a really good time. We do something by the way called flex time for podcast, the episodes are kept pretty short, around 15 minutes. The idea is no excuses you can always fit it in, make it easy for you while you're running a quick errand, what have you, but if you have a longer commute, you can also stack them. We have a library now of more than a hundred episodes so you can listen to a few on your commute if that's what worked for you. Make sure that when you subscribe and hopefully you are subscribing, we really need the support that you set the downloads, go into the manual settings and set it so that you automatically get the downloads so that you don't miss any and you're good to go.

Bobbi Rebell:
And we love automation because that way things just happen and it's one less thing to remember. Alright, let's get to Barbara Corcoran and you know her from Shark Tank and now she has a new podcast called Business Unusual, also really short, so that's a good thing. She gives a lot of advice that seems shocking until you listen to it and listen to her reasons and then think that is part of how Barbara Corcoran is successful. It's the unusual. She approaches things in a different way from the way that we're always used to approaching it and it works for her. It may not work for you. The big takeaway from this episode, which you'll see I'm going to talk about after her interview. I don't know if I could do it, but I can see how it worked for her. So with that, here is Shark Tank's Barbara Corcoran.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Barbara Corcoran you're at Financial Grownup welcome to the podcast.

Barbara Corcoran:
Thank you. Pleasure to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am such a fan of your new podcast. For many reasons, of course also because it's a short podcast, but you have the best wisdom and you share so many lessons from your life, so thank you for that.

Barbara Corcora:
My pleasure. I enjoy doing it, but it's a scary proposition as I'm sure you will know, you have to earn people's ears while you're talking to them.

Bobbi Rebell:
You do, well you've been earning it for many years and you're going to share a money story from early in your life, your very first real estate purchase or I should say your first house and it sounds like it's going to be a story, but there's something that happened that I think people want to hear. Go for it.

Barbara Corcoran:
Yeah, and it has a valuable lesson. When I committed to purchasing my first home with my first husband. I was about 29 years old. I didn't have a pot to pee in as they say, but we sat across the dinner table for a man who said he was selling a certain house that was like a magical house from what I heard, and my mouth said, I'll take it. And why it was magical. It was a house that anybody would think you could only dream about, which was a house with eight bedrooms two guest cottages, a wet and a dry boat house facing a brand new lake.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you have kids at this point, Barbara?

Barbara Corcoran:
No, of course not.

Bobbi Rebell:
Who was moving into this mansion?

Barbara Corcoran:
Listen, I figured I'd have fun with friends, but I had no rights saying we'll take it to which my husband was more startled than I was over my own mouth. Because we didn't have a dime to our name, we were struggling to just meet our bills. We're still kind of kids coming up the ranks, but-

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, so tell me what happened. How did you buy the house?

Barbara Corcoran:
Once I said we'd buy the house, we had the problem of coming up with the down payment, 7,500. And so my husband and I started eating tomato noodles every night that I think they're chef Boyardee or something in a can and bring them lunch every day and we saved every penny of what we were earning in our lives, short of the rent we had to pay for our studio apartment. Well, three months hence we had most of the down payment but not quite and we're out for dinner with the same big boss of his and he mentioned that his father, he wanted to close, which was putting ... Was scaring me to death because I still didn't have enough money.

Barbara Corcoran:
But he said his father was reluctant to leave the house and I volunteered. Well, why don't you let your father stay there, but in trade for that, I got four months extra time. So we were able to save the down payment of $7,500. No problem. But when we got to the closing, the closing costs too, which I didn't have, but he was so in dear to us for keeping his elderly dad in the house that he paid for the closing costs for us. And we moved into that beautiful house and we had it for seven years until I decided to leave my husband and he got the house.

Bobbi Rebell:
Why did that happen? How did you let that happen?

Barbara Corcoran:
You know why? Because I got the apartment in the city by then we had bought a one bedroom apartment in the city and I sold that one bedroom that I paid $80,000 for two years later for 250. And he sold that house that we had paid $75,000 for two years after our divorce for $75,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what is the takeaway for our listeners?

Barbara Corcoran:
I'm a believer in always committing throwing it out there and say I'm going to do it. Because when you have that kind of pressure and you've publicly committed, you find a way to get there. If you can commit to something, you'll find a way of getting there. If I had said, give me a couple of months, let me see if I could save for the house, believe me, my rational side would have kicked in and said, what are you doing? But because I said I would, I found a way that could do it and that's the truth, and most people are better than they think. If they're willing to be courageous enough to state it as low as fact and then make it happen versus the other way around.

Bobbi Rebell:
And eat a lot of canned noodles.

Barbara Corcoran:
Oh yeah,[inaudible 00:06:40] Yeah, you can do anything if you know it's temporary.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us your everyday money tip because this is also a real Barber tip because this is something that works for you may not work for other people, but it is a strategy that people might want to consider. Again, for you it works it may not be for everyone. Go for it.

Barbara Corcoran:
It's a particularly good strategy if you're out to those your own business, and I'll tell you why. My strategy is this. I always spend money I don't have. If I see money coming in new receivable, three months out, I committed that day, what I'm going to spend it on, and I started spending it even before it arrives. The reason for that is I have no choice but to actually make it happen whatever I'm doing. Because I know I've already committed the money. It's like putting a gun to your own head where you have to produce. If instead you wait for the money to come in and then say, okay, I've got this little extra cash. We've had a profit this month. Let's see the best use of it. That sounds rational, but I'm telling you the fever with which you attacked the best use of it is nothing compared to knowing that the bank is going to come in and chop your head off if you don't produce.

Barbara Corcoran:
So. I've always consistently put myself under pressure by spending money long before I have it and I've never let myself down. There's something magical that happens in the universe when you really under fire when you have no choice that you find a way to get there, and so I'm a big spender and on top of that I can also say, although I was born a poor kid and have my thousand dollar loan from my boyfriend, thank God, or we have been able to quit my waitress job and starting a business nowhere. Okay.

Barbara Corcoran:
But once I had that thousand dollars, I just thought, you know what? This is found money. It's a gift from God and I'm just gonna run this thing up the flag pole until somebody stops me and my most assured policy of making sure no one stopped me was to spend money in advance of having it because I had no choice but to make good on it. I had no choice and ran like a devil with a limited timeframe and I was able to accomplish 10 times more than all my competitors simply because of the pressure I had put on my own back. All right, so it's not what you read in accounting book, but I can tell you when you're building a business, it's a smarter way to go than to be calculated and do it a step at a time.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's the real world. One other quick question though, did you ever have trouble and how did you handle it collecting those receivables?

Barbara Corcoran:
No, I wrote off about 10% of my receivables because you have to appreciate. My business was selling co-ops in New York City and we had about 10% of our deals that didn't approve the Co-op association. They were turned down by the board, so I knew what that average was the first year, by the typical may be the second year in business, I realized I lost 10% of my deals, so I just wrote off that 10%. So that was realistic in suddenly a good accountant would do, but that's where my relationship or any resemblance to an accountant definitely ended in my attitude to it and everything else.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. I want to talk quickly about your, still relatively new podcast even though who would know it because it's always at the top of the charts where to I'm trying to climb, but you're there and that's a lot because your podcast is so good. It is a short one, so dear to my heart, but you also really deliver personal and as you have here very honest and straightforward advice about your life and the lessons that you have learned and your bold with it. Your most recent episode talked about quitting jobs. You quit 22 jobs Barbara, you also talk about negotiation skills. Tell me more about this podcast and why it is so different and people are really responding to it?

Barbara Corcoran:
I think people are responding well simply because I tell it like it is. And it doesn't mean if it's the person listening, but I think they leave trusting that they heard the truth and I also think I'm impatient by nature. So if you're gonna ask me what about negotiation? Most people can write a book on that. I can't. I can tell you in eight minutes flat, what the key to negotiation, what are the key moves and what doesn't work. And really I don't have more to say after the eight minutes. So I think because I have such a short attention span and because I'm so impatient by nature myself and listening, I want to know what you want out of me and what do I gotta do. And that's pretty much how I am with everybody. Get to the point and then tell me how you get there.

Barbara Corcoran:
So I do get to the point and then tell you how I get there and then the eight minutes are up and I'm signing off. I wish I was more verbose and had more great delicious detail, but I just say the main things that worked for me and I leave it at that and my sign off until the following week. So I hope it works. We'll see. It's very scary as I'm sure you know, to merit someone's eight minutes. I feel it's such an abuse or a trust that I feel like every word has to really, really count or I have no business doing its own. I'm Mostly scared, I'm scared to six days. Then I do the podcast, then I get scared all over again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well you're doing a great job. I don't find you scary at all. I love it. I think you're worth investing every one of those eight minutes, so thank you for all that you do. Everyone knows where to find you, but just in case because I ask everyone, tell us where you can be found, where people can follow you on social and what else is important that's going on in your life that we should know about.

Barbara Corcoran:
Well, of course it's a Business Unusual, which is the podcast, my newest baby, but as usual, any social platform @BarbaraCorcoran is very easy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love it. Thank you Barbara.

Barbara Corcoran:
I love you back. Bobbi. Thank you so much. And Go back to your real name, Barbara, it's such a pretty name.

Bobbi Rebell:
So if you're like me, you want to hit rewind and listen again. She's that good. And before I get to the financial bonus tips, just want to make a little comment about the food because we spend so much time agonizing over all of this organic fancy food and when we're saving money, everyone talks about the ramen noodles. I want to talk to you about the chef Boyardee that she and her husband were eating to save up money because you know what, that's fun childhood memories for me. My mom was a working mom and you know what? Sometimes we have something called spaghettios. Do you guys even know what that is? It's basically this like circle pasta in a can and tomato sauce and it's delicious. It may not have any nutrition, but if you see spaghettios in the store, I have no affiliation with them. Pick them up and try them instead of ramen noodles if you're trying to save money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just for variety, be a little bit bad. Like I said, they're probably not nutritious at all. All right, let's talk about my tips. Finance grownup tip number one. Sometimes financial advice like Barbra's goes against common stereotypical things that we hear. Here's the thing though, always listen to different opinions especially when they're from someone like Barbara Corcoran who has been so successful in so many different fields, to not only real estate where she started out, but also now with Shark Tank. She's an entrepreneur investing in so many different companies, so listen to her and give it some thought. Now I'm not telling you to go out and spend money that you don't have or even to spend on receivables, which is really what she was doing. It was money that she had contracts for but had not yet received so she believed that money was coming, but I see her point and I also see how that can create a really strong motivation so before totally rejecting it or even accepting it, play out how that would work for you.

Bobbi Rebell:
How are you going to cover things for example, if someone does not pay or if they pay, but they are on a delayed schedule so they're not paying in 30 days like your bill says they're paying 60, 90, 100, 20 days out. How are you going to finance that? You have a line of credit with your business. Are you throwing that on a credit card where you might be paying interest, late fees? What have you, factor that in. Are you going to charge a late fee to them? Barbara factored in that 10% of her expected commissions receivables were not going to happen so even she was doing that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two, be creative and flexible. When you're negotiating. Barbara, let the sellers elderly dad stay in the house longer than originally planned. Again, you have to give Barbara props for being open minded and in return by the way, she got precious time and the goodwill was so strong and her gesture was still appreciated that the closing costs were paid by the seller.

Bobbi Rebell:
That is huge. Thank you all for being part of the Financial Grownup community. We bring this to you for free. The only payment we ask is that you share it with someone that you care about and that you believe would enjoy and benefit from the podcast. Your reviews and your feedback. I'm just going to tell you guys straight up there is really important. I read everyone, we don't get as many as I would like. There aren't that many there and I know a lot of you are out there. A lot of you are DMing me, which is actually really great. Still DM me, gave me the feedback, but if you can also leave reviews on Apple podcasts, that is also really helpful to get the show notice because that's how people discover the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you do want to also be in touch on social media, it's not either or guys. Follow me and DM me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 that's the number one on twitter I'm @BobbyRebel and on Facebook, Bobbi Rebell as well. And big things of course to the amazing Barbara Corcoran, the ultimate Financial Grownup. Everyone check out her podcast Business Unusual and watch her on Shark Tank and thank you Barbara Corcoran for getting us all one step closer to being Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

At 20-years old, Lauryn Williams CFP® was the fastest woman in America, and suddenly faced some very grownup financial decisions. Lauryn shares how she put together a team of advisors including her coach and an agent, how they vetted different sponsors, and how she learned to get paid to run for a living. 

In Lauryn’s money story you will learn:

-Why one of the fastest women in the world chose to slow down and carefully make her financial decisions

-How much money a three-time Gold medalist really makes 

-What goes into an olympic sponsorship deal

In Lauryn’s money lesson you will learn:

-How keeping an open mind prepared Lauryn for the opportunity of a lifetime

-How to cope with money anxiety when making a big financial decision

In Lauryn's everyday money tip you will learn:

-The one person who will always save you money

-How to listen to others talk about finance with a grain of salt

In My Take you will learn:

-The number one question you always need to ask yourself before making a financial decision

-Why Certified Financial Planners need to be your best friend

EPISODE LINKS

Check out Lauryn's website here

Listen to Lauryn's podcast here

Follow Lauryn's company! 

Instagram: @worthwinning

Twitter: @worth_winning

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Transcription

Lauryn Williams:
And so you can put the Adidas contract next to the Nike contract, next to the New Balance contract, et cetera, et cetera, and see one is offering a higher salary but the other one is offering a lower salary but is also going to pay for your school. Which I had one semester of school left when all this was taking place and that was really important to me, that I be able to finish my education and finish it for free.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hello, my financial grownup friends. That was fellow Certified Financial Planner, Lauryn Williams. Her company, by the way, is called Worth Winning. She also just happens to be a three-time Olympic medalist, the first American woman to medal in both the Summer and the Winter Olympic Games. Lauryn was a track star and then just kind of decided to get into the bobsledding thing, because why not, and of course she won a medal there to. By the way, she's a four-time Olympian. And Lauryn not only is a CFP, she is an MBA, she has an MBA in Finance. Talk about a role model.

Bobbi Rebell:
So welcome, everyone. So glad you are investing the time. And for those of you that are new to the Financial Grownup podcast, we try to keep it short, about 15 minutes, because we know how busy you are. But if you have a little more time, feel free to stack a few episodes together. Let's get right to Lauryn, I met her through our mutual friend, Jamila Souffrant, of the Journey to Launch podcast at Podcast Movement, where else, this past summer. And immediately I adored her, I know that you will too. In addition to all of the accomplishments that I just mentioned, and many more, she's just the coolest and most lovely person, and also a fellow dog lover. Here is Lauryn Williams.

Bobbi Rebell:
Lauryn Williams, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Lauryn Williams:
It's so good to be on. Thanks for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I'm so excited to have you because not only are you a four-time Olympian, the first woman to earn a medal in both the Summer and the Winter Olympics, you get the biggest gold star from me because you're an actual CFP, Certified Financial Planner. So, so great to have you, Lauryn.

Lauryn Williams:
It is really good to be on the show. I'm looking forward to telling my financial story today.

Bobbi Rebell:
I do want to just mention, you also are a financial professional, you are the real deal. Your company, Worth Winning.

Lauryn Williams:
Yeah. I started a company to be able to help young professionals, people specifically in their 20s and 30s, organize their finances because I felt like there was such a big gap there. During my career as a professional athlete I had some advisors that didn't do a good job for me, and it was mainly because they didn't get what I needed at that age. So my company is specific to helping young professionals organize their finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And we'll give all the information for that. And by the way, your podcast, Worth Listening, after your money story. But we want to get to this because this is really a unique perspective into the world of a money-savvy athlete. Because when you were in college, just 20 years old, you won a very big, big race and that brought you to a big financial milestone in your life. Tell us your money story, Lauryn.

Lauryn Williams:
Yeah, so I was a junior in college at the University of Miami, having a blast. Made it to nationals my freshman and my sophomore year, but didn't have success. So on my junior year, I was on a tear. What do I need to do to win this national championship, I wanted to be the fastest girl in all of college. And I did, I achieved that. I ran the fastest time that day, won the race. It also happened to be the second fastest time in the world, for the whole year.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just happened to be.

Lauryn Williams:
Just happened to be. And it was 2004, the Olympic year. So immediately I had to turn my focus from this one goal that I had of wining college nationals to, oh my goodness, America is counting on me to go to the Olympic trials a month from now and win that thing and represent Team USA.

Bobbi Rebell:
But also, there was a money element to this.

Lauryn Williams:
Exactly. So immediately after running that time I started to be approached by agents and they started approaching mostly through my coach. She was kind of the middle woman and she just had to sit me down and say, "Lauryn, as much as I'd like you to stay in college, I think it's going to be more lucrative for you to leave school. And the first part of that process if for you to get an agent."

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. What happened was you were being approached by a bunch of companies who wanted to sponsor you.

Lauryn Williams:
Exactly. So, with track and field, the shoe companies are usually the main way that we earn a means of income. So it's not a situation where you earn a W3 employment somewhere with Team USA and then you get this as extra. If you don't have a sponsorship, you don't have an income and you're not really a professional athlete. That was the main thing, so I had to decide which shoe company I wanted to go with, which contract was going to be the best. And the agent helped a lot with putting in the restrictions and the bonuses and making sure everything was really good.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. So let's take a step back. You finish the race, what happens then? Does a shoe company just call your mom? How do they first get in touch with you? Break down exactly what happens and, if you feel comfortable, who was approaching you and how they value an athlete early on.

Lauryn Williams:
Yeah. So the shoe companies are there at the meet, they're walking by you, they're shaking your hand, telling you good luck, we'd love to talk to you. And you don't have any long conversations in that moment, you just have kind of shorter ones. And then, like I said, my coach was very protective, made sure that first step is to get an agent, find someone that you trust, and let those shoe companies go through the agent instead of you having to talk to them directly. Because they're trying to woo you and tell you all these great things, but really it's going to come down to what's on that pen and paper and whether or not we should sign that. So we've got to get someone that's a professional, that knows about these contracts, in order to get the information we need. So that was the first step in the process really.

Bobbi Rebell:
So your coach guided you in choosing an agent. And what was that conversation like? Were you just swarmed by agents? How did you vet the agents?

Lauryn Williams:
I had to make a list of questions. I had to find out what I was looking for, what do I need from being a professional athlete, what can I expect from you? Because I'm 20 years old, I'm not even legally a grownup grownup yet. I'm going to need your guidance but I also know that I'm hiring you and you're going to make a living from this. So what can I expect from the money that you'll be paid to provide this service to me? And in track and field, an agent takes 15% of whatever they get for you, and that's a pretty hefty chunk of change. It's not 1% or 2% like it is in the other professional sports, so you'd better make sure that it's somebody that you trust and that's going to be making the best earnings for you so that they too, in turn, can earn.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, is that true? So in track and field they take 15%, what sports do they take only 1% or 2%? That seems really low.

Lauryn Williams:
Pretty much the big three sports. So the Major League Baseball, National Basketball Association, NFL. All of those have much lower percentages, but they also have much higher earnings.

Bobbi Rebell:
Fascinating.

Lauryn Williams:
Yeah, our income fluctuates quite a bit in track and field. And so, for me, I was at around $200,000 as a 20-year-old. Like you said, fastest woman in the world in 2004. With, like I said, different bonuses and prize bonuses, if I ran a certain time I could get a bonus, if I won the Olympics I'd get an increase in salary. All those different sorts of things had to be negotiated.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So let's back it up a little. So you get the agent, then what happens? Did you just get a pile of offers and you just picked one? How did it work? Were there other factors? Was it just money? What kinds of things were you seeing, as a 20-year-old just getting these first money offers?

Lauryn Williams:
Yeah. So the agent comes to me kind of with a summary of here's what Adidas is offering, here's the salary, here's the bonus structure, and here's the ... You know, he was just going with the main things. Of course, you know, the final contract is 20 or something pages long, but the initial part is just here's a summary of what it is. And so you can put the Adidas contract next to the Nike contract, next to the New Balance contract, et cetera, et cetera, and see one is offering a higher salary but the other one is offering a lower salary but is also going to pay for your school. Which I had one semester of school left when all this was taking place and that was really important to me, that I be able to finish my education and finish it for free.

Bobbi Rebell:
And so you went with Nike. What were the factors that made that the winner for that first sponsorship endorsement deal?

Lauryn Williams:
Ultimately it was, like you said, the schooling was one of the big keys for me. Because, like you said, education was not optional. So for them being willing to support me, one, financially with a really good salary, then also pay for my education, they had a really good prize and bonus structure that if I did in fact run fast I would be compensated accordingly, which I thought was very fair. Every year that I won, I got a nice rollover or a nice salary increase. It was the most lucrative of the different contracts that were offered.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell me what was your feeling when you signed that first contract. Did you have a new sense of financial security when you signed with Nike, at age 20, for $200,000?

Lauryn Williams:
As a finance major, I think my biggest feeling when I signed that contract was anxiety. It's like you've been given a really cool opportunity, don't blow it. And so the first thing I wanted to do was go and find a financial professional to help me, because I knew even though I was a finance major that I didn't have what it took just yet to be able to organize such a large amount of money that I'd never seen before, no one in my family seen before. It was excitement but mostly anxiety.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the takeaway for our listeners from your story? From signing that first big contract at age 20?

Lauryn Williams:
I would say the takeaway is you never know when something really awesome is going to happen, when that windfall is right around the corner, but it's really about being prepared all the time. When opportunity knocks, be ready to answer the door and be prepared to take life at whatever it is, because it can immediately change. And my life changed overnight, I was a broke college student to hundred-thousandaire. Literally overnight.

Bobbi Rebell:
Amazing. All right, let's get your everyday money tip, because this also relates back to those early experiences and some good habits that you learned early on.

Lauryn Williams:
Yeah, I would say everyday money tip, make sure you have questions for whatever it is that you're going through in life. Whether it's hiring a financial professional, an accountant, an agent, when you're talking to your friends, ask questions. It's so important to be pulling information out of others as opposed to just taking the information as being fed to you. I found frequently during my career that people would give me information and they were only giving me the information they wanted me to have, and that ended up being catastrophic in a lot of different situations. So really having the ability to ask questions, look for red flags, and educate yourself in all aspects of life is the most important everyday money tip that I think your listeners need to hear.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wonderful. Tell us a little bit more about your business now. So you did have some tough experiences with financial advisors and you've talked about that widely, that really helped pivot your career when you moved away from full-time being a professional athlete into being a full-time financial advisor.

Lauryn Williams:
Yeah, I just had to find a way to fill the gap. Like you said, there was so many basic things, from budgeting, to understanding first-time home purchase. I needed help with just those basic things and I realized that as young professionals, there's a gap in the industry. There's these big wealth managers that require you have at least a million dollars before you can get help and then there's these other guys that sell you crappy products. And I was like we deserve something better, we deserve just unbiased advice that could help us build wealth, sort through our student loans situation, sort through the financial basics so that we can get on the right track. And that's how Worth Winning was born.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what inspired you to become a CFP and not just a financial advisor? Because you don't have to be a CFP to do this.

Lauryn Williams:
You don't have to be a CFP but I feel like it's the standard. I wouldn't go to someone who said, "I read medical books all the time, so certainly I can perform this surgery on you." Yeah, you may be really smart, but I'm going to go with a doctor that's actually been to medical school. And CFP to me is the same sort of standard, where you've gone through rigorous education, you've gotten a certain amount of experience, you've taken a hard, hard, hard exam, and you're held to a level of ethics that is not what the whole industry is held to right now. So it was really important to me to be able to put that seal of approval and that stamp on, to be able to say I'm competent to serve people and do my best job for them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Where can people find out more about your and Worth Winning, and Worth Listening, your podcast?

Lauryn Williams:
Yes. Worth Winning is worth-winning.com and the podcast is worth-listening.com. And you can get to Worth Listening by going to Worth Winning, so I'd love to have you go and check out my website and see if something there rings true with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
And your social channels, you have a great following, by the way.

Lauryn Williams:
Oh, thank you. @worthwinning on Instagram, @worth_winning on Twitter. And then if you're looking for me, Lauryn Williams the Olympian, you can do lauryncwilliams on Instagram, Twitter, and you can find me on Facebook as well, by typing in either of those.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Thank you, Lauryn.

Lauryn Williams:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, everyone. Love Lauryn's story, because it's such a different world. I mean, can you imagine being a star athlete and being offered hundreds of thousand dollar contracts when you're 20 years old, out of the blue, and all the responsibility that comes with it? I love the fact that she came out so strong and then it became such a great foundation for building her Worth Wining financial advisory business, and her Worth Listening podcast, which everyone should check out. Lauryn is a wonderful role model.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number one. Lauryn talked about asking a lot of questions and having your list. Okay, I want everyone listening to always have one question at the top of that list, no matter what you are buying, financial services or otherwise, how do you get paid? It's very important to know, is someone being paid a flat fee or are they being paid on commission. Now, there's no right or wrong answer, as long as you're comfortable with the answer. Generally, it's nice for financial services to go to somebody who's not being paid on commission because you know that they're seeling you, in theory they should be selling you, what is best for your needs. If it's commission-based, they may be selling you what gives them the best commission and you never really know.

Bobbi Rebell:
So it's important to know how they're being paid. But remember, this is the financial services industry. In many other industries the general rule is that commissions are often the preferable way to be paid. For example, think about travel. Very often someone that helps you set up a trip is getting a commission and most people are okay with it being paid that way, as opposed to paying them a separate fee, although it can be done that way as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two. You may have noticed that I was fawning all over the fact that Lauryn is a Certified Financial Planner. It is a big deal. When you give your money to someone, you need to know that they are qualified, that you can trust them. And I can tell you, that as a Certified Financial Planner myself, we are what is called fiduciaries. And that means that we have to work with you to find whatever solution is in your best interest, not just what is suitable. Fiduciary, big word, very important word, but pay attention to it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you all for your support. If you have a financial question, a money question, or just a question about what goes on behind the scenes here at Fin aical Grownup that you want answered on one of our bonus episodes, we are taking listener questions. So just DM it to us on any of the social channels. On Instagram @bobbirebell1, on Twitter @bobbirebell, or you can also just email it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. That's hellow@financialgrownup.com. And thank you to Lauryn Williams for helping us all get one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Boreland Group Founder and CEO Jennefer Witter learned early on that the best way to get clients was to offer extreme value. But to stay in business, and continue to serve the clients, the author of the Little Book of Big PR also learned when to put the brakes on the discounts. 

In Jennefer’s money story you will learn:

-How to utilize a current network to create a new one

-Why Jennefer values transparency with her clients and how it helped her build a business

-Ways to find out what to charge new clients

In Jennefer’s money lesson you will learn:

-How to create meaningful relationships with new clients

-Three ways to look at the return on investment

-Why Jennefer always sets a definite stop date with her clients

In Jennefer's everyday money tip you will learn:

-The one question Jennefer asks that saves her small business big bucks

-Why it's good to be aggressive in business negotiations

In My Take you will learn:

-Take an angle that makes you eligible for discounts

-Why sometimes working for free has the biggest pay off

Bobbi and Jennefer also talk about:

-Jennefer mentioned that she gets a small business discount for ProfNet, which helps her public relations company get leads

EPISODE LINKS:

Jennefer's book is available online here

Check out The Boreland Group's website here

Follow Jennefer! 

Twitter: @JenneferTBG

Linked In: @Jennefer Witter

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Transcription

Jennefer W.:
It was a six month program, and yes I invested, when you added up over $10,000, but what I got back through that $10,000, was multiples in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are listening to, Financial Grownup, with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of, How To Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? Being a grown-up is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're gonna get there together. I'm gonna bring you one money story, from a financial grown-up, one lesson, and then, my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, financial grown-up friends. Every business, or pretty much every business, I would think, starts as a start-up, and every business has to get that very first sale, and that very first client, and to make it happen, in most cases, that first client, that first sale, the business owner has to be willing to lose money on the bet, that they will win over that first client, and build from there, but many businesses make a mistake, in that, they don't really set the expectations right, and then when they do have to raise the price, so that they can actually make money, they get backlash, because the client's expectations were not aligned with the realities of the business.

Bobbi Rebell:
Our guest, public relations whiz, Jennefer Witter, who is the head of, The Boreland Group, and by the way, literally, wrote the book on PR. It's called, The Little Book of Big PR, was careful in her approach at that delicate start-up stage, and it has served her well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome everyone. We have a lot of new listeners, that we are very excited about. The show's are short, about 15 minutes, because you're busy, but of course, you can binge, stack a few together. Maybe if you're commuting, have a little more time to listen. Consider it flextime for podcasts, and with that, let's get to our amazing guest. Here is Jennefer Witter.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Jennefer Witter. You are a financial grown-up. Welcome to the podcast.

Jennefer W.:
I am so thrilled to be on, Bobbi. How are you?

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I'm excited to finally snag you. You are one busy lady. You are, the CEO and Founder of the boutique, Boreland Group, and you're also the author of a book that I loved reading, 'cause I'm kind of on the other side of it. It's The Little Book of Big PR, which is awesome, and it really is a little book.

Jennefer W.:
It's a tiny little book. It's a paperback, softcover. You can also get it as an e-book, and I wanted it to be little, because you know what it's like as an entrepreneur.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah.

Jennefer W.:
You have some things on your desk. You have to do this. You have to do that. You don't want to be reading, War and Peace.

Bobbi Rebell:
No.

Jennefer W.:
So, with the full book of Big PR, the full title is, The Little Book of Big PR: 100+ Quick Tips to Get Your Small Business Noticed, is you can read a chapter here, a chapter there, or you can read it all at once, and it will not take you more than a couple of hours to read it, and you walk away with information that you can readily use in your business practice.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love that, and you are an entrepreneur. Your business has grown, but when it first started, you had to make some difficult choices, and we always say, "Don't undervalue yourself. Don't give away services for free, but it's kind of complicated." Tell us your mini story.

Jennefer W.:
Well, here's the thing. When I first started The Boreland Group, it was 15 years ago. I really didn't think about becoming an entrepreneur. So, when I decided to do it, it was just like, "You know what? I don't have clients. I don't have any income coming in."

Jennefer W.:
So, I reached out to everybody that I knew, and I said, "Do you know of somebody, who is looking for a boutique public relations firm?" And I got one response back, after sending out like 200 emails, and it was a friend of mine, and he said, "I have a friend, who's sister-in-law is looking for a publicist." And when I met with her, she did not want to pay what I was charging at that time, and so, what I decided to do was invest, because I only was going to have one client, and I knew that once I got that one client, once I got that chance, I would have those doors open.

Jennefer W.:
So, what I did was, she paid me [crosstalk 00:04:20].

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait. Let me just stop you there. So, you say what you were charging, but the truth is, you were charging no one because you had no clients.

Jennefer W.:
No. No clients.

Bobbi Rebell:
This was your first client. Right. So, you had an idea of what you wanted to charge, but you didn't have a rate that you were getting. So, you needed to start building your client roster.

Jennefer W.:
Oh, absolutely, and so what I did with this one client was, and I'll give everything as transparent. I charged her $1,800.00 a month. One thousand, eight hundred dollars, and then, I invested another $1,800.00 into her. So, it normally would have been $3,600.00, but I was only getting back $1,800.00.

Jennefer W.:
Now, you may say, "You're giving away your services." And I absolutely was, but I knew that once people saw what I was doing, getting her into the media, getting her speaking opportunities, that I would be able to build upon this client that I had, into a client portfolio, and after [crosstalk 00:05:16].

Bobbi Rebell:
Was this client, Jennifer, let me ask you, was she aware? Did she really only have budget for $1,800.00, and was she aware that she was getting, quote, double the value of what you felt you should be paid?

Jennefer W.:
Oh, she was absolutely aware, and what I told her was, for this first six months, I would charge her $1,800.00, and at the end of the six months, it would go up to the $3,600.00. So, she was fully aware, and I wrote a program, and I said, "This is what you're going to get overall." And I said, "This part you're going to be paying for. This part is what I'm investing in." And I put together a plan, that was very tight, because you have to be careful about such things. You don't want to say, "I'm going to give you $1,800.00." And you wind up giving somebody $5,000.00. You definitely need to have parameters, that you don't sink yourself before you swim, and once I started to do that, and then I started leveraging, and I'd say, "I have this client. This is what we're doing."

Jennefer W.:
When I was meeting with the media, some of the media saw what I was doing, and they sent some direct clients over to her, and at the end of the six months, I did a new program for her at the full price, $3,600.00, and she knew that it was coming. She saw the work that I was doing. She appreciated everything that I was doing, and more than that, she saw the value. She signed the account. I got paid the $3,600.00. I had other clients, who were paying that amount, and my business was based on an investment, that I knew would pay off in the long run, and it did.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what is the takeaway for our listeners? Among young people, there's a lot of talk coming up in business, that it's really important to be aggressive with your pricing, and not undersell yourself.

Jennefer W.:
You know, I wasn't underselling myself, and you have to want to give, in order to get, and when you have zero clients, and you have the opportunity to get a client, who you know will be the foundation of growing your business, you need to take that step, and you need to invest, and know that at the end of that six months, or whatever timeframe you're going to get your money back. You have to look at the big picture. You have to be long term, and you have to look at that ROI, the return on investment. It can't stretch out forever in eternity.

Jennefer W.:
You need to have a definite stop date, which is exactly what I did with this client. It was a six month program, and yes I invested, when you added up over $10,000.00, but what I got back through that $10,000.00, was multiples in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
That is a great story. Let's talk about your every day money tip, because it also pertains to when you start a business, and you're the small guy, you still need to have the tools, that the big guys have, but they are expensive. So, you have a tip on how you can save, if you are an individual, or a small boutique business, and you have to be assertive about it. Go for it.

Jennefer W.:
Oh, absolutely, and what you need to do, this is what I did. I am a small business. I've always been a small business, and whenever you're going out for products and services, if it's expensive, you know you have to use it, but tell them, "You know what? I'm a small business. Do you have a small business discount? What can you give me? I'm not the Edelmanns, or the Ketchums of the world. I'm not pulling in like $30-$40 million a year. I'm pulling in a fraction, but what I am is a client, and there's more of me than there are of the Ketchums, and the Edelmanns, and the large corporations."

Jennefer W.:
So, if you go out there, and you are aggressive, if you are forceful, and you say, "Look, I'm a small business. I'll be a loyal client. Give me that discount, that I know that you can give me." Let me tell you, it works.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just so our listeners who aren't familiar, you were referencing large public relations firms, 'cause you are in the public relations business. So, can you give us a tangible example, of something that you bought when you were starting out, or buy now, and approximately what it would cost for a large business, and approximately what it would cost for a ... how much you can get a discount from, from sort of the list price, so people have an idea of how much you can ask for?

Jennefer W.:
Sure. One of the services that I use is called, ProfNet, and it's specific to the PR community. What it is, you get pushed about 100 leads a day, and you go through them seeing which ones are, that you can respond to. It's from reporters. It's from producers. They're looking for interview topics for the stories that they are writing or producing.

Jennefer W.:
For large companies, it's several thousand dollars a year. I'm not exactly sure. Like $3,000.00 or $4,000.00, and by making it clear, and asking for a discount, and saying that I am a small business, I got it for less than $1,000.00 a year. So, right there and then, I was able to save about, over $2,000.00, that I would have paid ordinarily, if I had not spoken up and say, "Hey, I'm a small business. I'm a solopreneur. What can you do for me?" And it worked, and I saved a lot of money, because of that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where can we find you, and find out more about you?

Jennefer W.:
Well, you can always find me on Twitter, which is J-E-N-N-E-F-E-R-T-B-G. You can go to my website, which is The Boreland Group dot com. B-O-R-E-L-A-N-D Group dot com, and I'm on LinkedIn, and again, my first name is spelled funny. It's J-E-N-N-E-F-E-R, and the last name is W-I-T-T-E-R. No h.

Bobbi Rebell:
Is there a story behind the spelling of your name?

Jennefer W.:
You know what? I wish. I just think it was a nurse, who spelled it incorrectly. Both parents deny spelling it with the e, and it's on my birth certificate, so it got there some way.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so funny. Okay. Love that, but it sets you apart. So, there you go. We're all unique in our own way. Thank you so much, Jennefer, with an e, Witter. This was amazing. Thank you.

Jennefer W.:
Thank you, Bobbi, with an I.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, Friends. Alright, let's get right to it. Financial Grownup Tip Number One: Jennefer does a great job asking for discounts, because she is running a small business. That is the angle that she uses. So, think about what your angle is. There's countless ways for you to get a better price, or a better deal in some way, on just about anything, work or personal. You gotta find your angle.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of my favorite ways to get a discount on something that I need, for example, for my business, but don't want to pay the full price, or can't afford the full price. Maybe it's not in my budget. I say that. I just reach out and say to the vendor, "That's just not in my budget right now. Will you be in touch, if and when you have something that's an alternative to the offering, or maybe you can offer me a price reduction, an option that can work within my budget?"

Bobbi Rebell:
I have always gotten a response, and in almost every case, we've been able to work out a way for me to become a client, because ultimately, that's what they want. They want to get you in to their system, as a client, at some level, and then hopefully, later on down the road, they can increase how much you're spending, because you'll see the value in the product.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup Tip Number Two: So, here's the flip side of all that. The most important part of Jennefer's money story, isn't that she lowered the price for her client, or did some of the work for free, however you want to look at it. To get a new client, it's that she had a strategy to end it. Expectations were set right at the outset. So, let's just say, you're on the other side of the business that I just talked about, where you had a business owner like myself coming to you saying, "It's just not in my budget." And you work out a deal to get me onboard. The important thing is to set expectations to say, "Okay, we're gonna do this for one year, and then, in a year when you see the value and hopefully your business is doing better, and your budget would have increased, you're gonna come in at the regular price." And they're hoping, that I, the business owner, will see the value.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, it's important, as Jennefer did, to work with clients when they need you to work with them, but also have them recognize that they are getting something of value, that maybe they're not paying the full price for, and that the expectation is, down the road, the price will meet the level that it needs to be at, for the business owner to sustain their business, because at the end of the day, if you enjoy doing business with somebody, you like their product, you want them to stay in business, and to do so, you need to make a profit. All good things.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another great thing. If you enjoyed this podcast, let a friend know. Help us grow the show. Also, share it on social media. On Twitter, I am at Bobbi Rebell. On Instagram at Bobbi Rebell One, and DM me with your feedback. A lot of you have been doing that, and it's really great for me to hear which episodes really resonate, and what you want to hear more of, and maybe what you're not that into. That's okay too.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love hearing all of it, and as I have mentioned on previous episodes, we are now gearing up to do bonus episodes, which will include listener questions. So, send them in. You can DM me on the socials that I just mentioned, or you can email me them at, hello at Financial Grownup dot com. That's, hello at Financial Grownup dot com.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am such a fan of Jennefer's. She has so much to offer. Do check out her book, The Little Book of Big PR, and of course, The Boreland Group, and thank you, Jennefer, for helping us all get one step closer to being financial grown-ups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell, is edited and produced by, Steve Stewart, and is a BRK Media Production.

Entrepreneur Lyss Stern, CEO of networking and event planning company DivaMoms and author of two best-selling books explains how she dealt with a major company that approached her to work with them, and offered to pay her in Craisins. Lyss also shares her secret to controlling costs, and still saying yes, when she is out with her kids and they want to have some for treats like ice cream. 

 

In Lyss’ money story you will learn:

-How a billion dollar food company tried to hire her for no pay

-Why they said they had no budget to hire Lyss

-What they offered her instead of money

-The strategy Lyss uses to make sure she is properly compensated for her work

In Lyss’ money lesson you will learn:

-Her negotiating strategy and tips on how it can be used by others

-The best ways to communicate the value of your business

-How mompreneurs can leverage their skillset

-How to handle low ball offers

In Lyss’ everyday money tip you will learn

-How to save money on treats like ice cream

-The questions you should ask while ordering to find out about sizes and other items not on the menu

Lyss and Bobbi also talk about:

-Her books: If You Give a Mom a Martini

and Motherhood is a B****

-How her life inspired her books and her business

-The realities of life as a mom and an entrepreneur

In My Take you will learn:

-How to decide whether it is worth it to take on a low-paying client, when you don’t have other clients in place

-How to find value in a client that truly does not have money to pay for your services

Episode Links:

Divamoms.com

Follow Lyss!!

instagram @diva_moms

twitter @divamoms

Facebook lys.  Lyss Stern

Get her books!

If you give a mom a martini

Motherhood is a B****

---

Transcription

Lyss Stern:
They wrote back to me, "But we can pay you in craisins," and that was it for me. That day, I'll never forget. I could not believe what I was reading in front of me. They had the nerve to tell me that they could pay me in craisins.

Bobbi R.:
You're listening to Financial Grownup With Me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup, and you know what? Being a grown-up is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi R.:
Hey, financial grownup friends, so this episode is going to give us permission to push back a little or actually a lot when we don't get what we need to run a profitable business. Emphasis on profit. Mompreneur, Lyss Stern, is the CEO of the networking and event planning company, DivaMoms. There are a number of them out there, but she was really a pioneer and helped create and define an industry that is thriving. And since she has so much free time, not while raising her three kids, she also writes books.

Bobbi R.:
You may have heard of If You Give a Mom a Martini and her more recent hit Motherhood is a B: 10 Steps to Regaining Your Sanity, Sexiness, and Inner Diva, which she co-wrote with Cheryl Burke, and it has a forward by odd-mom-out star, Jill Kargman. Special welcome to our new listeners. We keep the shows short, about 15 minutes so that we can fit it into your busy day, but we also do three a week, so we hear a lot of listeners like to binge listen on, for example, longer commutes. Think of it like flex-time for podcast listening. Hit subscribe if you have not already, and be sure to set up automatic downloads, so you have one less thing to remember. Just like you should automate your savings. One less thing. Okay, now let's get to the fantastic, Lyss Stern, who runs a for-profit business, something potential clients seem to have a hard time fully understanding. Here is Lyss Stern.

Bobbi R.:
Hey, Lyss Stern, you're a financial grownup, welcome to the podcast.

Lyss Stern:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi R.:
And I am such a fan of your company Divalysscious Moms, major event planning company. I mean literally, you have millions of mothers and Mompreneurs in your universe that you have coming to your incredible events. So I'm over the moon that you were able to make time to chat with us. So thank you for being here.

Lyss Stern:
Of course. Thank you for having me on. I'm so excited to be talking with you.

Bobbi R.:
Before we get to your money story, just tell us a little bit about the company.

Lyss Stern:
Sure. So DivaMoms is a lifestyle company for moms everywhere. What we do is we bring the best of the best directly to the moms. We've really become a direct marketing company, so we work with whatever is new, fabulous for moms, for kids, but everything has to be approved by DivaMoms, by Lyss Stern herself, before we promote it to our moms and our community.

Lyss Stern:
And we throw these amazing events and we have DivaMoms book clubs and lots of fabulous parties where moms can come and just be, let their hair down, have fun, mix and mingle with other fabulous moms and really a great social network for moms everywhere. A really amazing community online and offline.

Bobbi R.:
And you're also an author. We're going to talk about your books, in a couple of minutes, but first I want to get to your money story, because you're talking about your business, and it's really important for people to hear a little bit of the behind-the-scenes of what goes on behind these events, and the kind of decisions that you have to make in running a successful business. Tell us your money story.

Lyss Stern:
Sure. So my money story is that I get hundreds and hundreds of emails a day, as I'm sure many Mompreneurs do, where companies want to work with me. They want to advertise with DivaMoms. They want to sponsor DivaMoms events. They want social media, They want email blasts, you name it. They want it.

Bobbi R.:
So there was one company that approached you and this was not a startup. What specifically did they approach you about doing with them as a business?

Lyss Stern:
Sure. So this one company, in particular, that is a billion dollar business.

Bobbi R.:
A food company?

Lyss Stern:
A food company, billion dollars.

Bobbi R.:
A company we've all heard of?

Lyss Stern:
Yes, oh yes. Reached out to me and said, "We love DivaMoms. We want to work with you, we want to advertise with you. We want to sponsor some of your events. We want to do direct marketing with you, want to do social media with you. We want email blast with you," all this other fabulous stuff. Okay, great. So I write back and "Thank you for reaching out. Let's talk, when you have some time, about what your budget may be," and all this other stuff.

Lyss Stern:
And they write back to me, "Oh no, no, no, no, no. We don't have a budget. We don't have a marketing or advertising budget." No, but I see their advertisements on every billboard, on every bus.

Bobbi R.:
Well they don't have a budget for you.

Lyss Stern:
But they don't have a budget for me. Correct.

Bobbi R.:
And they came to you?

Lyss Stern:
Yes. I did not approach them, and they can come directly to me. I wrote back something very polite and then they wrote back to me, "Oh no, no, no, no, no, but we can't pay you," because I guess they got, they understood where I was coming from, that this DivaMoms is a for-profit business. Yes, we are affiliated. We work with different charities that we're passionate about, but DivaMoms is not a charity, we're a for-profit business like everybody else like they are.

Lyss Stern:
And they wrote back to me, "But we can pay you in craisins," and that was it for me. That day, I'll never forget. I could not believe what I was reading in front of me. They had the nerve to tell me that they could pay me in craisins. And ladies and everybody out there know your worth, and you know that you are better at getting paid in craisins.

Bobbi R.:
Oh, my goodness. Tell me how you would, in another situation, how can you turn around that kind of approach to something that is paying you in money? Have you had any stories where you've been able to make the pivot and get someone to see the value and then actually pay you in a currency?

Lyss Stern:
Yes. So I've had this many a times and this was the one time, obviously, that was with the craisins, and it was just ridiculous. But a lot of times I will write back to companies that reach out to me, and I'll explain to them who we ... Sometimes I don't think they really understand what I am or what we do. They might think that I'm, I don't know what they might think, maybe it's just a hobby for Lyss Stern. Maybe this is a hobby DivaMoms, this is not a business, and I make it, it's all business.

Lyss Stern:
This is what it is. It's very black and white and I send them, obviously, information. I send them photos, I send them videos, I send them press links and let them know who I really am. And then a lot of the times they do come back, and they say, "Oh, I didn't realize," and, "I didn't know that you did this and this and this. Let me go back and see if we can find some money in the budget." And a lot of the times they do go back, and they do, miraculously somewhere, find money out of their budget to work with us.

Bobbi R.:
So what is the lesson for our listeners to get more situations like scenario number two rather than number one?

Lyss Stern:
Sure. My mom always taught me, and I'm sure we get everybody's heard this a million times, "You get more with sugar, so always be sweet." Always put your best self out there and hopefully they will come back and understand. That you, obviously, that you have a business that you have worth. And it's always nicer to respond with a nice email and/or pick up the phone and set up a time to call and explain yourself. Explain what the business is, who you are, what you actually really do. And if they don't understand, no worries, no problem. But, hopefully, after speaking to you, after really going through your email and going through your information and doing their due diligence. They'll come back and say, "Okay, we found money," or "We'd like to really work with you and this is what we're going to do and this is what we can do."

Lyss Stern:
And I also always, I think it's important too, to give companies options to say, "What is your budget? What are you looking to do? Because we could start at this, and we can go to this." But it depends on again, what every company's looking for. And I just think it's there from the beginning, from day one of the conversation to be open and hat in hand and to have that conversation. And that's just even an example of a few days ago, a company reached out to me, a clothing company. They want me to host an event for them and Dah, Dah, Dah. And she starting to getting into this whole conversation about where the event was going to be. And I said, "Before we even begin this conversation, I just have to tell you we charge and this is what we do and this is-

Lyss Stern:
And she's, "Oh well, oh, I didn't know, I didn't know that you ... and so I had to explain it and then I sent her a proposal and that's also important too. Write it out, a, b, c, bullet point, make it visual and show them what you do, and then hopefully they'll come back with a budget.

Bobbi R.:
And I like the way that you phrase that, because what you're doing is you're giving people the benefit of the doubt. That they may think, on the surface, not fully understand your business, that they're in fact helping you give you exposure, give you new contacts, that kind of thing when in fact, as you said, you do need to be compensated, because this is the business. And I think that's something that people can sometimes get lost in, and they are well intentioned. You can't necessarily come back with negativity.

Lyss Stern:
Absolutely. I think that if you come back with negativity, at least from the beginning, from right on, it's not going to get you anywhere, but sometimes they really might not understand what you are, who your business is and what you really do. So just again, send an email, really show them what you do or set up a phone call with them or even have a meeting, go for coffee, have a lunch meeting and be a person and talk about what you do. So I think that they get a better understanding and then hopefully they can wrap their head around it and see the value and see the worth. And I think that's really important.

Bobbi R.:
Do you try to let them say the number first in terms of budget?

Lyss Stern:
I do. A lot of times I'll say to the company, "What are you looking to do? What is your budget?" And a lot of times they'll come back to me, and they'll say, "Well, what can you do for this amount? What can you do for that amount?" And sometimes they'll say to me, "Well, I don't really know, so can you give me a breakdown of what things cost?" Which I'll do always. I think a lot of times a lot of companies today don't pay, because they don't have to, because a lot of times people or companies or influencers might do stuff for free, which is fine and great. Or they might do stuff for products, I mean whatever that's wonderful. But we, my company, happens to be a for-profit business, so I just need to make that clear from early on.

Bobbi R.:
All right, let's move on to your everyday money tip, because this one made me really happy. Tell us.

Lyss Stern:
Okay. I have three children, and we love to go for ice cream. However, there is a great way to save money for ice cream. For us as adults, they always do offer kiddie cups and kiddie cones. They might not show it out on the counters-

Bobbi R.:
And they don't always tell you, which is tricky with the kids. You have to be proactive, because your kids are going to see the bigger sizes.

Lyss Stern:
Yes. You have to be proactive. You have to ask, they most usually do not put the kiddie cone, or the Kiddie cup out there, especially during the summertime, their busiest time. And same thing for going for a ladies lunch. A lot of times you don't have to order the whole salad. You could ask for half a salad, and it also affects the cost, obviously. They're just little tips about food that you can, obviously, save a few dollars by asking and being proactive.

Bobbi R.:
Always order the small or even just order an appetizer. If you're super hungry, of course, eat what you want to eat, but if you're really just there to spend time with your friends, and the food is kind of an afterthought. Don't feel you have to order an appetizer, a drink, a full entrée, a dessert, a coffee, tea.

Lyss Stern:
No, it's definitely not necessary.

Bobbi R.:
All right. I want to talk about your books, because in addition to this big business that you re running you're also churning out some books. So your first book was If You Give a Mom a Martini, which I loved. I remember reading that. A 100 ways to find 10 blissful minutes for yourself. We all need that. And, by the way, it applies to dads too, okay.

Lyss Stern:
Yes, it does.

Bobbi R.:
And then your latest one is Motherhood is a B, 10 Steps to Regaining Your Sanity, Sexiness and Inner Diva, which is a great summer read. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Lyss Stern:
Sure. So this book was created, because I felt, after having three kids, that I was just on the verge of losing it, losing myself actually. I wasn't feeling well. I was just in a place, my father just passed away, and I remember going to a retreat by myself for a few days. I said to my husband, "I just need to go away for a few days." I went to a retreat, and I remember coming back from that retreat and saying, "I need to start taking care of myself. I need to start putting myself first, because if mom's not happy, kids aren't going to be happy." Motherhood is really hard. I don't think that anybody tells you, there are no parenting books out there that really tell you what motherhood is.

Lyss Stern:
Everyone, sometimes they paint pictures of that it's rainbows and roses and Unicorns every day and it's happiness, and it's ... but it's really hard being a parent, and I think that the book is all about really empowering you to step back and get yourself back. It's like almost like a Stella Got Her Groove Back, right.

Bobbi R.:
When feel like someone gets you.

Lyss Stern:
Yes. And that's really what the book is about, and it's a great beach read, and you could have conversations with your friends and don't forget to have a B-Tini on the beach as well, because we have the recipe in there. It's absolutely delicious, with watermelon juice, and it's just again, taking care of you and putting your foot down and learning to say no and really regaining your inner-B, because motherhood is a B.

Bobbi R.:
All right. Tell us more about where people can find you and learn more about you, DivaMoms, your books, all that good stuff.

Lyss Stern:
Sure. So everybody can find me. The best place to find me is on Instagram, which is diva D-I-V-A _ moms M-O-M-S. And you can also find me on Twitter, which is divamoms.com, and of course my website, which is divamoms.com and also on Facebook. I'm very active on Facebook.

Bobbi R.:
You're everywhere.

Lyss Stern:
We have a Divalysscious Moms pages, but we also have a Lyss Stern page where I post a lot of stuff too, and also everybody listening, I'm a little sarcastic online, and I'm a little bit funny I'm a little bit witty, and I'm very real and what you see is what you get.

Bobbi R.:
Which is awesome.

Lyss Stern:
Thank you.

Bobbi R.:
Okay, friends. So the most upsetting thing about Liz's story is that while the whole craisins thing with the currency was pretty unbelievable, the idea that potential clients will try to convince you that they have no money is not unusual, especially when it comes to Mompreneurs. Let's face it. So Financial Grownup tip number one, every time you take on a client that pays you a low market or less than you want or need, the time that you used to work for that client is time you are not using to find better paying-work or to do better-paying work. So for example, let's say Lyss decided to work on a client that paid her 20% below what she needed to make a profit, because well, it was better than nothing and maybe she didn't have something else at the time, when that offer came in, those days are locked in.

Bobbi R.:
Okay, so now another potential client comes along, and we'll meet her price, but now she's not available. Don't work with clients who either cannot afford to pay you at the rate that you need to hit your profit targets, and especially don't work with clients that have the resources to pay you appropriately, but choose to try to low ball you.

Bobbi R.:
Financial Grownup tip number two, but here is the caveat to what I just said. If there is a client that, in the short term, cannot afford to pay you in currency, as I joked with Lyss, but you believe they will add value for your brand in a constructive way, it is okay to try to work something out. Don't be stubborn. Not every case is black and white. Live in the gray areas, just not in the red, of course.

Bobbi R.:
Thanks for sharing this time with us. Tell us your Financial Grownup money tips, DM me on the social channels @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, @bobbirebell on twitter, and learn more about the show at bobbirebell.com/financialgrownupspodcast. Lyss Stern does not mess around. She is definitely a Financial Grownup, so thanks, Lyss, for helping us all get one step closer to being Financial Grownups.

Bobbi R.:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Influencer author Brittany Hennessy shares her strategies for getting large raises even when companies push back. Her book, Influencer: Building Your Personal Brand In the Age of Social Media, focuses on strategies for content creators to monetize influence. 

In Brittany’s story you will learn:

-Why she did not negotiate her first job offer

-The strategy she used to get a raise from $35,000 to $55,000 after just 6 months

-How she got yet another $20,000 jump in pay not long after

-Why the third time she tried to get a raise, she got a different result, and how she moved forward from there

In Brittany’s lesson you will learn: 

-How to understand your worth and be prepared to negotiate

-When to walk away

-How to look at job interviews as a two way street, and integrate that into your strategy

In Brittany’s everyday money tip you will learn:

-The importance of staying in touch and being reachable if your work demands that. 

-The consequences of not being available when an opportunity comes up

-How to put the pressure to disconnect in perspective relative to your reality

Bobbi And Brittany also talk about

-Her new book Influencer

-The four parts of Brittany’s book: Building your audience, packaging your brand, monetizing your influence and planning your future.

-The Don’t be that Girl sections of the book

-The mega influencers that Brittany interviewed for the book

-How being an influence is a lot of work, sometimes a lot more than a traditional job, with none of the financial security

-Many of the most successful influencers went years without any financial compensation

-How brands can get more transparent value working with influencers, where they see the specific impact, compared to traditional celebrities on traditional media platforms

-Brittany’s #1 piece of advice for aspiring influencers

In My Take you will learn:

-Disconnecting from technology is a good thing- but if your business is tied to being reachable- make sure you are still reachable. 

-Use apps to limit and control the amount of time wasted on social media,so you can be more productive and focus on income generating activities

 

Episode Links:

Learn more about Brittany Hennessy on her website: https://brittanyhennessy.com/

Read Brittany’s Book #Influencer!

 

Follow Brittany!

Instagram @mrsbrittanyhennessy

 

Here are some roundup articles with apps to turn off social media:

https://www.reviewed.com/smartphones/features/10-apps-that-block-social-media-so-you-can-stay-focused-and-be-more-productive

 

https://www.teensafe.com/blog/best-app-limits-social-media-time-iphones/

 

https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/apps-to-reduce-screen-time-iphone-android/

 

Reward Style

Shop Style Collective

Learn how Brittany Hennessy negotiated a 57% raise on this Financial Grownup podcast episode. http://www.bobbirebell.com/podcast/britannyhennessy

---

Transcription

Brittany Hennes:
I had $50,000 for someone for eight hours of work and one Instagram post, and she just did not respond. And when she did, she was heartbroken, because $50,000 is a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup. With me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. You know what? Being a grown up is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're gonna get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey grownup friends. So, I think we would all like to make $50,000 for a day's work. It almost makes that famous quote from supermodel, Linda Evangelista, the one where she says she doesn't get out of bed for less than $10,000 seem a little quaint.

Bobbi Rebell:
Apparently, according to our guest, Brittany Hennessy, at least one influencer didn't pick up the phone and missed out on $50,000. That is a very expensive missed call.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome everyone. Thanks for spending some time with us here at Financial Grownup. We keep it to about 15 minutes, but feel free to binge if you have a bit more time, and it would mean the world to us if you would hit that subscribe button. Go into settings and then set up automatic downloads. Automation is everything just like with investing, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Let's get to Brittany Hennessy. She is the senior director of influencer partnerships at Hearst, and she was a pioneer in the influencer field, first as a nightlife blogger, and then she worked as an influencer for brands including Bacardi, Pop Chips and The Gap, as well as having amazing assignments like ooh going enough to Germany for [inaudible 00:01:46] and hanging out with Rihanna and live tweeting about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Her book, Influencer, is really a first. Even if you aren't in the content creator influencer world, you should definitely check it out. We're going to talk a little bit about that too. Here as Brittany Hennessy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Brittany Hennessy. You're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Brittany Hennes:
Thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Congratulations are in order. Your book, which has only been out a week, Influencer, Building Your Personal Brand in the Age of Social Media, already an Amazon bestseller, so congratulations.

Brittany Hennes:
Thank you very much.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I know you've been very busy. Tell us just a little bit about you, your background and what you've been up to. The last week or two you've been touring around with your book.

Brittany Hennes:
Yeah, I'm currently the senior director of influencer partnerships at Hearst, and here I book all of the branded content talent across all of our digital platforms and spent a lot of time working with influencers.

Brittany Hennes:
My background, for the last five years, has been in influencer marketing and just realizing that a lot of influencers were not getting the education and resources that they needed to be successful in this industry, and that's mostly because it's a new industry. There are not a lot of people who could give that sort of advice, and I love giving advice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You brought a great money story to share, and it has to do with getting paid more, which you're so good at it. So tell us.

Brittany Hennes:
So my money story ... My first job that I had after a long break of freelancing, and I had just taken the job at the amount, it was $35,000, and I was really happy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us what the job was. What were you doing?

Brittany Hennes:
Oh it was to be ... So, I was the social media manager of a fitness chain.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Brittany Hennes:
And happy to have a steady paycheck, have health insurance. And so I took the number, even though it was much lower than what I wanted, and after the first six months I realized that I can't live on this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well wait, had you tried to negotiate it at the beginning or you just took it because you just wanted to be working?

Brittany Hennes:
You know what? I knew better to negotiate, and I was scared. And so, I think that happens to a lot of people. We're afraid that if we negotiate, a company will take back the offer. And so that is a lesson I learned the hard way and quickly course corrected when I asked for my first raise.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, you did not negotiate it all when they made you your very first offer for the job?

Brittany Hennes:
I did not, and that's something I think everyone should do, and I've done every time since.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So, let's go on. But then things get better?

Brittany Hennes:
Things get better. So, I put together a big proposal, and I asked for promotion, and I asked for a $20,000 raise, and they gave it to me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, wait, you asked ... Let's just slow that down. You asked for $20,000 on a $35,000 base. How did you present that case?

Brittany Hennes:
You know, I think it really was explaining what I had been doing at the company and the returns they had been seeing, because they hadn't really been a digital company at all, and I really put them on the map with social media, digital advertising, and I had the numbers to show. Like before I started working here, this is how many signups you were regenerating. This is how much revenue you are making. And in the six months I've been here, here are the new numbers. So, they more than make up for the increase I'm asking for, and unless you want to go back to not making as much money, you should give me what I'm asking for, and they took the bait.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's great. Then, you actually did it again though.

Brittany Hennes:
I did it again. Once I was grooving at that new level, I also stepped up the amount of work I was doing. I really stepped into like a brand director role, and we had an apparel line that we made. We had a radio station that we were playing in all the locations. So, really doing things that increased the brand value of the company, and that's something that translated into reviews online, into sales, into word of mouth. And again, when you can show that you're adding value, I think you should not be afraid to ask for a hefty bump. And I asked for another $20,000, and I got that as well.

Brittany Hennes:
And so I think, you know, if you're working hard and you're adding value, and you can put that on paper and quantify it real numbers, you should not be afraid to ask for more money because your job will give it to you, and if they don't, they don't appreciate you, and you probably should look for a new job anyway.

Bobbi Rebell:
What if they'd come back and said, "We agree you're worth this, but we don't have that in our budget."

Brittany Hennes:
So, that's actually what happened the third time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, you went back for more. How far apart? It was six months for the first time, and how much between each subsequent time?

Brittany Hennes:
Six months for the first time, and then I think a year and a half for the second time because I was there for almost three years.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. And then you came back the third time.

Brittany Hennes:
And my last negotiation came at the end.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. And?

Brittany Hennes:
And they didn't have it. They said, "You know, you're great, and we don't have it." And I think you can either be able to walk away, which I was able to walk away, and I had also gotten another job offer that was for significantly more than they were paying me, so I was willing to walk away. Or, you know, if you can't, then you can look into trade offs. Like, if you can't give me X amount, can I have more vacation? Can I have a work from home day? Can I, you know, have shorter days? I think, if you really love your job, and the job is not just about the money. It's also about the work-life balance that you have.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson for our listeners when you look at a big picture in sort of a broader sense of how it can apply to our listeners' lives?

Brittany Hennes:
I think the lesson there is really when you're going into a job situation, to understand your worth and be prepared to negotiate for what you want, and also be prepared to walk away.

Brittany Hennes:
I think lots of times we're very much, "I hope they like me." And we forget that interviewing for a job is a two-way street. Of course, you're going to be able to work at this great company and all the perks that come with it, but this company is benefiting greatly because they're going to get to have you as an employee.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I want to talk about your everyday money tip because it's fascinating and brilliant, because it goes against the grain.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're in a period where a lot of people are saying, "We look at our phones too often. We need to completely detach, turn it off, put it away for a full day or whatever it is and be in the moment." But that could be very expensive and could be a money mistake. So, what's your everyday money tip?

Brittany Hennes:
My everyday money tip is don't play hard to get and definitely be present.

Brittany Hennes:
I work with a lot of influencers who, I email them, I have contracts, I have offers. Sometimes it's four or five, six figures, and they don't respond because they just didn't get around to it, and they're always heartbroken when they try and connect with me later, and the opportunity has passed them.

Brittany Hennes:
So, I think, you know, it's definitely important to disconnect and recharge, but you still need some sort of out of office-on even if it's just letting people know that you only check email twice a day, and the next time you'll check is that this time because you never know what's sitting in your inbox or in your voicemail, and you have to make sure you're ready.

Bobbi Rebell:
Without naming names, what's the worst case that this ever happened?

Brittany Hennes:
I won't name names because the poor girl's probably still traumatized by it, but I had $50,000 for someone for eight hours of work and one Instagram post, and she just did not respond. And when she did, she was heartbroken because $50,000 is a lot of money for anybody.

Brittany Hennes:
Even Warren Buffet, if you want to give him $50,000, would probably take it. Why not? It's a nice amount of money, and she could have made that doing relatively little work, you know, compared to what a lot of people have to do for $50,000, and she just wasn't there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Heartbreaking. All right, let's talk about Influencer because, as I said, I love this book, and I don't know that there's any other book out here yet that lays it all out so clearly and in such a specific way.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love your expert tips. You have throughout the book this Don't Be That Girl, which is a lot of no-BS advice for people as to what you can't do. Tell us more about the book and what went into it.

Brittany Hennes:
The book is broken out into four parts, building your audience, packaging your brand, monetizing your influence and planning your future, and it's really just giving you tips and practical advice. Like I even give email templates on if someone asks you this, you should write back this, because I think part of what makes people successful is having a formula and having some sort of standard, and influencer marketing is still so young that there really hasn't been anything that's been created that's a textbook, and that's really what I tried to write.

Brittany Hennes:
And I think my favorite part ... I really liked the icons that I interviewed eight mega influencers who were at the top of their game, but I do really like, Don't Be That Girl just because I think it's really ... I think it's really funny, and people always like horror stories, and so I had to change some details so that people aren't easily identified, but the meat of the story and how ridiculous some of the [inaudible 00:10:49], they are a hundred percent true.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. You talk about the request that some of them put forward as if they were celebrities of a caliber that they just are not at this point, but because they live in this bubble, they believed that they are.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I think another good thing that I love about the book is that you make it very clear that they treat this like a job, and in most cases it's not even a solo job. It is a job with multiple people working on these brands. So, it may look very carefree, these beautiful photos, but in fact, they're very planned. The equipment is specific. The lighting, the filters. The other people working on it have very targeted jobs. This is work even though you say it's eight hours, for example, for $50,000 that that person missed out on. To be at the caliber where you ae being offered $50,000 for eight hours of work and an Instagram post, that person probably was working for many years very hard.

Brittany Hennes:
That's 100 percent true, and I think that's the part people miss when they, I think, are a little disgusted, might be the proper word, about how much some of these top-tier influencers are making, and a lot of these women weren't making that much money until recently, and some of them have been YouTubers, bloggers, Instagram stars for 10 years, and for the first five they made $0.

Brittany Hennes:
People just think they snap one photo and slap it on Instagram. Have you ever taken one photo of yourself? It's not perfect. You take at least five. And so, they're taking hundreds, then doing select, then editing, and that's even before they were mood boarding the clothing and the locations and getting permits, and they're ... You know, if you think of any major brand that does a photo shoot, they're doing the exact same thing just sometimes on a smaller scale.

Bobbi Rebell:
Brands can tell on a much more granular level exactly what return they're getting. So, if you were a traditional celebrity and you're in a shampoo ad on TV, they never know how many bottles of shampoo they sold. But it's much easier, somewhat, to track the impact of an influencer campaign.

Brittany Hennes:
Absolutely. Between ... Even if you just look at basic media, if you're looking at engagements, the cost per click, the cost per impression, we have those data points now because Instagram is providing them, and YouTube provides them, and then you have huge affiliate networks like Reward Style and you know, Shop Style Collective where influencers can actually see how much product they're moving because they make commission off of it.

Brittany Hennes:
And so I think Reward Style has crazy numbers that like in a very short period, they did a billion dollars worth of sales, and companies like Nordstrom, 80 percent of their mobile traffic comes from influencers.

Brittany Hennes:
And so, brands can really see the difference that influencers are making, and it's not just enough to make great content, you also have to be able to move product.

Brittany Hennes:
And the girls who are commanding six figures for a campaign, they can do both really well.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, final question on this. Number one piece of advice for people that want to be an influencer that earns money.

Brittany Hennes:
Number one piece of advice is make sure you are in it for the right reasons. Everything is great, but everything, once it is your job, is now a job, and you may not want to get up some days, but you still have to go and shoot content. Definitely pick something that is your passion. And if you could do it and no one would pay you, you would do it anyway, because it will be a while. It can be a short while or a long while until you see real revenue from it. So, you definitely want to make sure you don't burn out before your time comes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Great Advice. Tell us where we can follow you because you are an influencer in your own right.

Brittany Hennes:
I'm on Instagram. That's my primary channel at MrsBrittanyHennessy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love it. Thank you so much, Brittany.

Brittany Hennes:
Thank you so much. This was so much fun.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends, so Brittany did not hold back. Here's my take on it though. Financial grownup tip number one. There is a big trend now that we should take breaks from our technology, and that is a really good thing, but if you have a job where you need to be reachable, be reachable.

Bobbi Rebell:
One option is to use, for example, the do not disturb feature settings on your phone. So, within there, you can set it up so that the calls from one group, let's say VIPs are allowed. You can also usually set it up so that repeated calls get through. That way if someone's calling you over and over again to hand you money, like $50,000, you may notice repeated calls and eventually they will get through to you. You can also, obviously, have some kind of message on your voicemail telling people to call someone like an assistant that can reach you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial grownup tip number two. While we are talking about phone settings, one way to not make money is to always be on social media, unless of course that is literally your work. Then be on social media.

Bobbi Rebell:
There are all kinds of apps and settings that can put controls in, so you won't be distracted by all the apps on your phone, but you can leave the right things on and use the setting.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I'm going to list some roundup articles with a bunch of these, but a couple to check out are Moments, Off Time, and Freedom.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thanks to everyone for sharing your time with us DM me and tell me what your financial grownup tips are. I am at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, BobbiRebell on Twitter, and Bobbi Rebell on Facebook, and you can get the show notes, for example, with the links of those articles for this episode BobbiRebell.com/podcast/BrittanyHennessy, and all of the show notes follow that same pattern where it's BobbiRebell.com/podcast, and then forward slash and the guest's name. And we have lots of great information there, including links to their books, where you can find them on social media and all that good stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Thank you for Influencer author, Brittany Hennessy, for helping us get one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Farnoosh Torabi was underpaid and overworked as a young journalist. But a key piece of information put her on the road- albeit a rocky road- to doubling her pay.  

In Farnoosh’s story you will learn:

-What to ask your HR department to find out if you are underpaid

-Strategies to use if your pay is at the low end of the salary range for your job

-When to know it is time to look for a job outside your current company

-How to handle the big question “How much do you want to make” during job interviews

-How to turn an employers promise of a future raise, into an immediate salary bump

In Farnoosh’s lesson you will learn:

-How to most effectively advocate for yourself

-How Farnoosh was able to persevere even when she faced pushback about her compensation

-The importance of getting the information in advance of negotiations

In Farnoosh’s money tip you will learn:

-Why she advocates checking your numbers every day

-What weight and wealth management have in common

-How she uses Mint

-How checking your finances can help catch financial fraud or hackers

In My Take you will learn:

-My mothers suprising negotiating technique

-How I got a salary above my ‘reach’  range by using it

-My dad’s philosophy on how companies show appreciation

-How to handle being offered a higher title and more responsibility- without a pay bump

Episode Links:

Find out more about Farnoosh’s course “Personal Finance for Grads” on Investopedia.com by going to academy.investopedia.com and look for Personal Finance for Grads. 

Be sure to use the code FARNOOSH20 to get 20% off the $99 course lifetime access. 

Farnoosh also mentions Mint, where you can also check out her columns.

You can learn more about Farnoosh Torabi on her website http://farnoosh.tv/

 

Follower her on social media:

Twitter: @FARNOOSH

Instagram @farnooshtorabi

Facebook: www.facebook.com/FarnooshTorabi

Listen to the So Money podcast on itunes

And check out  my episode from when How to be a Financial Grownup came out!

 

---

Transcription

Farnoosh Torabi:
I was in my mid 20s, wanting to get a raise at my job, kept asking over and over again to no avail. Finally, my father clued me in to this term that was really ground-breaking for me.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup. With me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. You know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, what were the magic words my guest's father told her about? And no, they were not, "I quit," or anything like that. But I do promise you, friends, you will learn a lot about the harsh reality of trying to pry more money out of a current employer, emphasis on current.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're also going to learn a whole lot about the power of information. My guest is Farnoosh Torabi. She is a big name in the personal finance space. You probably know her as the host of the So Money podcast. She's also the author of a growing list of best-selling books, which began with the, You're So Money; Live Rich Even when You're Not, published in 2008, and her most recent, When She Makes More. She also has a red hot course on Investopedia on personal finance. What else? I'm going to ask her about it. Here is Farnoosh Torabi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Farnoosh Torabi, you are a financial grownup, and I am so excited to be chatting with you today.

Farnoosh Torabi:
I'm so glad that I earned this designation. Financial grownup, how great. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm so happy you're here, and you're definitely a grownup, and by the way, I have you to thank for inspiring me to do this podcast. It was something that I was thinking about for a while, and we had a little conversation in the green room at the 92nd Street Y before a conference, and that was kind of the final push that I needed. So, I am forever grateful, so thank you.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Oh my gosh. Well, I'm glad to help. I'm happy to serve. I'm in. So wonderful that you're doing this. It makes a hundred thousand percent sense.

Bobbi Rebell:
Women podcasting about personal finance is a category that we want to grow, so we're all in this together. Speaking of growing, you are moving into courses. You have a really cool new thing happening with one of my favorite websites, Investopedia.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Investopedia.com basically brought my dreams to life. I've always wanted to do a money course, but as you know, as people listening know, a course is a big project. It's not just the teaching of the course, but it's the marketing, the infrastructure, the sales, the production, and frankly, all that just made me get dizzy and not feel like at all interested. I just wanted to show up and teach.

Bobbi Rebell:
But this is where you say, "It was worth it, though."

Farnoosh Torabi:
It was worth it. Well, they came to me and they're like, "We'll do all the back end stuff if you can just show up and teach," and that was music to my ears. So, together in collaboration, we created a nine-module money course, catered to graduates, people who are just recently out of college, young adults. They're getting their first paycheck, their first real paycheck, and they want to learn how to maximize it, how to make the most of that weekly/monthly paycheck.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So, you're going to learn about how to budget, how to save, how to invest properly, how to earn more, as salaries have been stagnant for a long time, so really excited about that.

Farnoosh Torabi:
If you go to academy.investopedia.com, and you look for Personal Finance for Grads, that's the new name of the course. We ended up switching it, because we wanted it to be really specific about who we were targeting. Personal Finance for Grads. And if you use the code, FARNOOSH20, you'll get 20% off. It's just 99 bucks, but you'll get another 20 bucks off with that code, FARNOOSH20.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also, maybe a good graduation present. Just a couple of months from now, people will be graduating. It's a really good thing, even if you're not a graduate, to think about gifting to someone.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Great idea. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that plug. It's lifetime access, so whether you buy it now, or in six months, or today, you'll have it forever.

Bobbi Rebell:
Good stuff, and by the way, when I was studying for my CFP, Investopedia was my go-to destination when you're looking for some arcane financial term, they have it all there, so that's my nod to Investopedia.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Well, they're the largest resource for financial information, so makes sense that you were able to bank on their definitions.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, no one would have some of these terms, but they have everything there, so they're a good place to check out, and get your course.

Bobbi Rebell:
But I also want to talk to you about the money story that you have brought today, because it has something that I would love to do, which is that it doubled your salary. So, tell me. How exactly did you double your salary?

Farnoosh Torabi:
I was in my mid 20s, wanting to get a raise at my job, kept asking, over and over again, to no avail. Finally, my father clued me in to this term that was really ground-breaking for me. It was what's known as your salary range or your salary band. It's information that human resources typically has at the ready to give you. They're not going to voluntarily give this to you, but it is your right to know.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So, I went to HR, because what this salary band essentially tells you, is what your employer has budgeted for your job, for your post. At the time, I was a producer. I discovered through HR that the salary band for my job at this particular new station, was anywhere from $44,000 up to $85,000/$90,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a big range.

Farnoosh Torabi:
That's a big range, and guess what? I was on the very low end of that range, despite having been there going on three years, doing multiple jobs that were above and beyond my original job requirements-

Bobbi Rebell:
And they didn't just come to you and say, "You're working really hard. Let's just give you [crosstalk 00:06:09]-

Farnoosh Torabi:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
No, really? That's shocking.

Farnoosh Torabi:
When did that ever happen? So, I was taking all the right steps, but this was gold, you know, learning actually what my company at the most, valued me at, was gold. Now, I will say that I used that in my next meeting with my boss, "Since I have some updates, I discovered that I actually can make up to, you know, $90,000 in this role. I've been here for three years. I'm still at the very low end. I'm like in the fifth percentile of this range, so I'm not saying I want to make $90,000, but I do think we could bump me up like five or ten K." And it was, "Okay, maybe when we review budgets." It wasn't like a done deal.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So, then I started to really see the handwriting on the wall, started to look outside for a new job. When I got interviews, I never forgot that salary range, and when I finally got close to a deal at this new employer, and they were talking money, they said, "How much do you want to make?" And I remembered that range, because that range was not ... Look, remember that's not just a range probably for your employer, but it's industry norms.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, companies know what's going on in their sector.

Farnoosh Torabi:
They know what's going on, and this new job that I was interviewing for, was a step up for me, and it was a more senior position, so that range was probably not even valid, but I used it as a baseline. So I said, "I would like to make $100,000." They said, "Well, we don't have a hundred, but we can give you 80."

Bobbi Rebell:
That sounds good.

Farnoosh Torabi:
I said, "Okay, well, you know what? I really, really want a hundred," and they said, "Well, why don't we start at 80, and then in six months we'll review where you're at, and we'll discuss maybe giving you a hundred at that point."

Farnoosh Torabi:
And I'm like, "Okay. This is the time to take all the money you can." When you're in negotiations. In six months, they're not even going to remember what they said about some meeting they wanted to have with you.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So, I said, "Look, can I have 90, and then I won't bother you in six months."

Bobbi Rebell:
I like that.

Farnoosh Torabi:
And they said, "Sure," nice and clean. And you know, so effectively, I doubled my salary. I went from 45 to 90, and I owe credit to knowing that salary range.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, Farnoosh, what is the lesson from your Financial Grownup money story?

Farnoosh Torabi:
The lesson is, you have to be your biggest advocate. You have to continually be curious about what it is you're after. So, I was not going to take "No," for an answer from my boss, and I just kept exploring, and digging, and questioning, "How can I make more money?"

Farnoosh Torabi:
And I talked to my family about it. It ended up my dad was the one who told me about this salary band thing, which I had no idea about. If I hadn't told him about it, I probably wouldn't have walked into HR, and asked them for the number, so don't give up. You know, a "No," is one step closer to a "Yes." As long as you stay curious, and determined.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, let me ask you. Do you have a day-to-day money tip, an everyday thing that you can recommend to people that they can implement right away?

Farnoosh Torabi:
Implement right away. I would say check your numbers every day. Look, I don't do this all the time, but I do step on a scale quite frequently, because I want to make sure that, you know, if I had a pretty crazy weekend of eating, I can check in with myself. I keep myself accountable. Like I'm, "Okay, I've gained a few pounds. I need to be mindful of what I'm putting in my mouth this week."

Farnoosh Torabi:
Your money's the same thing. Like you might have a week or a month where you overspend. It's important to know where you're at at all times, so that you can adjust. You can continually readjust and adjust and fine-tune your finances, but you're never going to be able to do that unless you have the knowledge of where you are financially.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So, on my phone, I am constantly checking my bank balance, my credit card balance. I check my Mint app, just to see am I over-spending, under-spending? I set budget limits for myself. This maybe isn't an every-hour or an every-day thing, but it certainly should be a regular, maybe twice to five times a week kind of thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, it's also smart to check in because there's so much hacking and fraud, that this way you spot it.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Absolutely, right. For that reason alone, you should be checking your bank account.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Thank you for all the amazing advice, and thank you for being part of this new program. We really appreciate it.

Farnoosh Torabi:
My pleasure. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's my take, guys. Part of being a financial grownup is taking advice from your parents. I'm not always the best negotiator. I'm going to toss this one to my parents, and share some advice that they have given me over the years.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup negotiating strategy number one, courtesy of Adele Rebell, the Just Keep Your Mouth Shut technique, meaning let the other person say the first number.

Bobbi Rebell:
True story, I once had a number in mind as a reach for a job. I didn't think I was going to get anywhere near that kind of money, but I kept my mouth shut, let them make the first move, and the offer came in $10,000 higher than that reach number.

Bobbi Rebell:
Then, I sat there. I was calm, cool, collected, pretended it wasn't enough money, asked for more, and you know what? I got another $5,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
Bonus tip, by the way, from my mother, the Keep Your Mouth Shut strategy can also work for losing weight. I'm a CFP, not a nutritionist, but guys, it does work, because of course you eat less food.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, back to our focus on money. Financial Grownup strategy number two, comes from my father, Arthur Rebell. Companies show love and appreciation with money. Companies may try to distract you with a fancy new title and lots of new responsibilities, but then they don't give you a meaningful raise.

Bobbi Rebell:
Imagine if you tried to pay your Visa bill by saying, "Well, my budget's tight, but I'm going to call you my Senior Global Credit Card. Yeah, not so much. Take the higher title, and say "Yes," to moving up in terms of responsibilities. That's all good, but just know, it is not the same as a raise. Companies show love through compensation, aka money. So try to keep the focus on the money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you all for the amazing feedback that we have already been getting on the program. It is truly appreciated. Please subscribe, download, share, review, rate, all that good stuff. We need it. We are a brand new podcast. All of your support means the world to us.

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope everyone enjoyed the show, and that we all got one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media Production.

Perez Hilton pioneered blogging as a profession, starting with his first $5 payday from Google Adsense. The once-bankrupt Hilton has built a multi-media business on that foundation, moving into YouTube, television and his latest venture, a guest stint at Chippendales in Vegas. 

In Perez’ money story you will learn:

-How Perez first earned money as a blogger, and the size of his first payment

-How he promoted his wesite perezhilton.com when it first started, well before social media existed

-How he realized he could make money blogging

-The big life failure that happened that led to his ability to focus on and monetize his blog

-The turning point in his career as a blogger when he was able to help his family

-What Perez tells his kids about his job

-Perez’s daily schedule and how he maintains productivity

-Why Perez wakes up at 5:51 every morning

-What was Perez’s biggest payday, and how much he has made in one day

-Why he is so excited talking about Lady Gaga!!

In Perez’s money lesson you will learn:

-The big warning he has to new business owners about the pace of growth

-Why he warns startup founders not to invest all their own money in their business when they can get investors

In Perez’s everyday money tip you will learn:

-How to negotiate better rates with the people that you have been doing business with for years

-How much you can reasonably expect them to discount services

-How to leverage your social media following to get discounts on products

In my take you will learn:

-Why it is important to note that Perez Hilton wakes up everyday at 5:51 am

-The significance of his regular, reliable schedule, especially as an entrepreneur and a parent

-How he is putting time management Laura Vanderkam’s strategies to work. 

-The importance of building out a brand in an intentional and focused way

-How Perez is integrating new platforms to expand his audience from his core platform

-The video on Perez’s personal youtube channel that I am personally completely fascinated by and why. 

Perez and Bobbi also talk about:

-How he has had to re-think his finances since having three kids

-Why Perez believes in diversifying financial assets, but also focuses on real estate

-The kinds of real estate Perez believes will be the best investments and why

-Where Perez is invested right now

Episode Links:

Check out Perez’s block perezhilton.com

Subscribe to Perez’ youtube channels

His personal channel The Perez Hilton

His regular content channel Perez Hilton

Here is more info about Perez’s Chippendales show in Las Vegas!

You may also be interested in Time Management expert Laura Vanderkam’s interview. You can listen to it at bobbirebell.com/podcast/lauravanderkam

 

Follow Perez!

On Twitter: https://twitter.com/PerezHilton

On Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/perezhilton

On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ThePerezHilton/

 

Listen to Perez’s podcast with Chris Booker:  http://perezhiltonpodcast.com/

Want to learn more about Perez? Check out his interview with Michael Dinich

---

Transcription

Perez Hilton:
I'll get anywhere from $25,000 - $50,000 a night for two hours just to show up and promote the club. And I remember one event it was 4th of July, I was the headliner. I decided, you know what I want to have a special guest, so my special guest was Lady Gaga billed underneath me.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what, being a grown up is really hard especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends. That was gossip blogging pioneer Perez Hilton dishing on some of his own finances and getting very candid about how much and how little other headliners really make. Perez has talked in public pretty candidly about some of his financial let's say adventures, including declaring bankruptcy and spending several hundred thousand dollars on surrogacy for his three kids. Go to his YouTube channel The Perez Hilton to hear more about that. His gossip YouTube channel is Perez Hilton, but I wanted to know more. After all, love him or hate him the guy started making money from blogging before it was a thing. And if you look at some of the ways we use social media now, like even the doodling people do on pictures and all that stuff he was doing it way ahead of us. He's made mistakes, which we talk about, but now that he's gotten older and wiser with three kids and a team that works with him, which includes by the way his mom, and his sister Perez Hilton is all about being a financial grownup. Here is Perez Hilton.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey Perez Hilton you're a financial grownup, welcome to the podcast.

Perez Hilton:
Hello, I try to be. Actually I don't even try, I am. It takes work.

Bobbi Rebell:
You very much are. Oh, come on. Yeah anyone who watches you have two YouTube channels, you have your fun gossipy one and then you have your also fun personal one. And people that watch that they know you talk about your bankruptcy, you talk about spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on surrogacy and the financial implications of that. So you are definitely, you're a grownup Perez.

Perez Hilton:
Well not even that, you know last year at the beginning of 2017 when I knew I was having a third child and that was coming it was a huge push for me to completely re haul my financial life. Meaning, overtly looking at every possible way to spend less and make more. And shorter term goals are definitely to diversify, it's a key word especially given how everything changes so quickly in entertainment, and just the world. For me though, and I may have still been at this before but I'm still trying to make it happen. And I wish I would have heard this before, I wish I would have made it a priority younger, I really want to get into real estate. Like some people want to play the stock market, some people want to invest in startups, some people want to start new businesses, some people want to let their money sit in a savings account, I want to go old school and own land. Own property. Not commercial property, I specifically want to own like a duplex or a triplex or four plex because I think that, that will only go up and it will only win.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where do you keep your assets now? Do you own your home? Do you have some stocks? Are you diversified? Because if you do everything in real estate you're not diversified and we just heard you want to be diversified.

Perez Hilton:
Yeah, no I mean I have a retirement account and I have different thing for my kid's college. I'm making all of the smart moves but instead of going heavier in the stock market, which I was advised to ... I did not listen to that advice and I'm going to go more into real estate. If I keep most of my money in real estate I don't care. I don't mind.

Bobbi Rebell:
We talked before we started taping about the first time you were able to actually monetize blogging, because you were basically the first. You were blogging before there was social media. You were blogging you were just trying to promote it on something called Friendster, which most of my listeners probably never even heard of. When did you realize you could monetize this and what was the first memory you have of receiving money for blogging?

Perez Hilton:
Well I didn't make any money for the first year plus. It was really just a hobby. Thankfully I ended up getting fired from a job that I had during that first year of blogging, which I credit to my website becoming successful. Because as a result of getting fired during that first year I was able to collect unemployment. So I didn't have to worry about feeding myself and having enough to pay rent. Thank God that happened. Sometimes a negative really is a positive. So, when I finally started making money to pay rent ...

Bobbi Rebell:
So a lot of bloggers today they make money from ads, from affiliate links, things like that. How was the first way that you made money?

Perez Hilton:
The first way that I made money, of course Google Ad Sense, was probably less than $5 but I was like, "Wow this is something exciting."

Bobbi Rebell:
$5 for something you were doing as just a fun little side thing is money, right?

Perez Hilton:
Absolutely.

Bobbi Rebell:
Was there a pivotal moment where you realized, "This is actually my ..." It's not your whole career because you do a lot more, you first of all you went to NYU, you studied acting you did a lot and you do a lot. This doesn't just come from nowhere, and I think you make it look easy but it's not as easy as you make it look. But when did you realize that this in terms of your general identity was going to be it and that there was a way to monetize this? I mean reports are you've made many millions.

Perez Hilton:
I would say that by 2007 things got to a point where I was able to and I needed to get help. And I was able to help my family by doing so. I hired my mom and my sister with me and really made it a family operation. So, I moved them from Miami to Los Angeles and they still work with me today.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. And how do you think you'll explain to your kids how you earn a living? Or will it just be kind of organic as they grow up?

Perez Hilton:
Well they already understand who Perez Hilton is. They've seen me on TV many times, the many different things I've done. They've been on TV with me. Last year I did a show for the Food Network called Worst Cooks in America Celebrity Edition, which I ended up winning by the way. I was the best of the worst. They got to be part of the show and they watched it every week with me. I do a lot of talking head commentary whenever I'm on like The Talk, or The Real, or local news here in LA. My mom will always record it and make sure my kids see it. Plus I make all my YouTube videos, they're in the background hearing daddy work and seeing me work as well on my laptop on my website. So they definitely have an understanding. They know I work so hard.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well tell me about that. Do you have a schedule or do you just keep going until it gets done? How does it work?

Perez Hilton:
I just keep going until it gets done, but I wake up at 5:51 every morning. I literally start working before I even get out of bed, before I even pickup my laptop I'm able to get some work done on my phone on Instagram. It's like you have to be doing everything everywhere. And I'll work, work, work. Then I'll take my kids to school, then I'll go to gym. Then I'll come back, catch up on work, do more work. Then I'll usually have a meeting or a filming or something in the afternoon. Come back home, catch up on work, spend early evening in dad mode. Put my kids to bed after getting them their shower and all that jazz, read their nightly book. And then get more work done, catch up on emails, and then usually get to bed like 11:30 maybe. I still love what I do, 14 years later. And I'm filled with so much gratitude that I am continuing to have fun and entertain people, and get new followers through different ways. Yeah, like even in a couple of days I'm heading to Las Vegas. I'm going to be doing the Chip 'n Dale show there.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so wild.

Perez Hilton:
That's so exciting. I'm going to be the special celebrity host of Chip 'n Dales.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you remember your biggest payday? What can you tell us about it and most of all how it made you feel?

Perez Hilton:
I remember like 2006 - 2012 before the rise of the DJ, which is where Vegas is now. It's all about the big name DJ's. You used to have a ton of celebrities hosting club nights in Vegas. And they would just throw ridiculous amounts of money my way and everybody's way. Now you'll have celebrities host Vegas, but because I know the market so well now, and I have so many friends that work in nightlife they're paying for the Vanderpump Rule for a housewife or whomever, five maybe $10,000. If you're a celebrity like Drake or somebody of that stature they'll make tons of money, but TV personalities five to $10,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
So let me ask you, how much would you make in those days in Vegas? And what was it like?

Perez Hilton:
Yeah. Well it depends on the venue, and the time of year, and a whole bunch of variables but I would say I would get anywhere from $25,000 - $50,000 a night for two hours just to show up and promote the club. And I remember one event I had back in 2008 it was 4th of July weekend, and I was the headliner. I decided, you know what I want to have a special guest. So my special guest was Lady Gaga billed underneath me.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are the lessons, the business lessons that you've learned from going from making $5 from Google Ad Sense, to Vegas at $50,000 doing DJ stuff, to now where you've got this multi-media empire that you are growing and building to invest in real estate as we know it for your kids?

Perez Hilton:
One advice I would give somebody is don't grow too much too quickly, which is a big mistake that many companies make. I would also say ... and a lot of this is just my experience, my advice, it probably maybe goes against what traditional business people might say. I would also say if you start making a lot of money on your business do not invest it back into your business or invest some but not a lot. Ideally to grow you can grow with other people's money. That's the goal.

Bobbi Rebell:
No, that's something a lot of people do. They leverage other people's money. Maybe put some of your own skin in the game, but it's also important to have some money set aside personally for you.

Perez Hilton:
Absofreakinglutely. Yep.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. All right Perez, I don't want to keep you too long. Give me an everyday money tip.

Perez Hilton:
One simple thing people that you do business with regularly, maybe your pool cleaner, or trainer at the gym, or for me I get my meals delivered from this one company. So I reached out to a lot of these people I've been very loyal to for a long time and I'm like, "Can we work anything out? Can you charge me less if I promote more?" Even if you don't have a large social media following, if you've been loyal to a company for a long time and been paying them they'll probably say, "Sure we can give you five percent off, 10% off." Any savings anywhere is good.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. All right, where can we support you? You're heading to Vegas, I just watched your video today, you're packing everyone up. Tell us about that and everything else that you want us to be paying attention to.

Perez Hilton:
Well I am a busy dude, yeah I'm going to Vegas. I'll be staring in the Chip 'n Dales show at the Rio from July 26th through Labor Day Sunday. I've got two YouTube channels, The Perez Hilton for everything family and then Perez Hilton for everything pop culture. Of course my website. And then I've got a podcast, The Perez Hilton podcast with Chris Booker where we talk everything pop culture.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is an empire. Congratulations on it all. Thank you for doing this.

Perez Hilton:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
So Perez is a lot of fun my friends, and he kind of makes it look easy if you watch his content. But let's look at what is really going on with this business, and it is business.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number one, note that Perez casually mentions that he always wakes up at 5:51 in the morning, and that he does work before his kids get up. Getting up early is a common thread of successful self starter entrepreneur, in fact according to time management expert Laura Vanderkam who was a recent guest on this podcast the vast majority of successful executives wake up before 6:00 am on weekdays. So, go set your alarm clock and try it out.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two, I love that Perez is always trying new things, but at the same time they are things that make sense with the brand that he has created. Perez still has his blog for sure and has expanded to different vertices, but he also knows that YouTube is very important to his audience as well. And so, he is growing there. One channel that extends his traditional gossip content, but he also now wants his audience to know him as a person. And he does very candid personal videos including a strangely amazing video by the way of how he brushes his teeth and keeps them so white. Watch it, you'll find yourself watching till the end, it's mesmerizing. Silly but mesmerizing. And now he's starting the Chip 'n Dales thing in Las Vegas, so this man is fearless but it is all on brand and all designed to appeal to his audience. Perez is consistent with his content and keeps his audience engaged.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you enjoyed this show please tell a friend. The best way for us to grow and keep bringing you these great stories is by sharing. You are busy but if you have time please leave a review and hit subscribe, and keep in touch on social media. We love it when you DM us on Twitter @BobbiRebell, on Instagram at BobbiRebell1 and on Facebook at Bobbi Rebell. And a big thanks to Perez Hilton who's having a great time in his very grownup life, for helping us all get one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stuart and is a BRK Media Production.

High Fiving Dollars' Sarah Li Cain had a contract that said her company had to pay her medical costs, but when she got pregnant, she and her husband had to come up with a strategic plan to actually collect the cash they were owed. Plus her tips on how to make sure you get the luxuries you want in life, without feeling nickel and dime’d

In Sarah’s money story you will learn:

-The challenge Sarah faced when pregnant as a teacher in China

-How the healthcare system there required employees to pay upfront, and then fight to get re-imbursed

-The financial risk that created for Sarah and her colleagues

-How careful documentation helped to get her money back

-The technique Sarah used to negotiate with her employer and her boss for both her healthcare needs and those of her colleagues

In Sarah’s money lesson you will learn:

-That is is essential to read your contract when you take a job, and not assume it will provide things, even if it is the law.

-The importance of standing your ground when you are entitled to something. 

In Sarah’s every day money tip you will learn:

-Why she is willing to pay more for homes that have the amenities that are important to her and her family

-The importance of building in value-add activities and facilities into your home or community, so you don’t have to spend extra cash to have services and other things that you value but might not pay for on an individual basis. 

In My Take you will learn:

-The importance of documentation especially when you need to be re-imbursed by an employer

-The tools and apps I personally use for document management and scanning

-My take on lifestyle amenities where you live

-The crazy and outrageous amenities that may not be worth paying for in many cases

Episode Links

Learn more about Sarah at https://highfivingdollars.com/

Listen to her podcast with Garrett Philbin (from Be Awesome not Broke) Beyond the Dollar! https://highfivingdollars.com/podcast/

Follow Sarah Li Cain!

Twitter: @sarahlicain

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/highfivingdollars

Pinterest https://www.pinterest.com/sarahlicain/

 

The tools I use to  store and track documents are

Dropbox dropbox.com

 

Evernote evernote.com

The App I use to scan documents is Jotnot https://www.jotnot.com/

Here’s a fun article from curbed.com on The Most outrageous amenities in NYC apartments https://ny.curbed.com/2017/12/18/16743830/nyc-outrageous-apartment-amenities-2017

Here is one from Elledecor.com on over the top amenities

https://www.elledecor.com/life-culture/fun-at-home/g14031044/over-the-top-amenities-nyc/

And here is one from Streeteasy.com on What Building Amenities to New Yorkers Want Most?

https://streeteasy.com/blog/nyc-building-amenities-top-10-most-popular/

---

Transcription

Sarah Li Cain:
I don't think they really thought it through if someone were to get pregnant because I chose to go with someone who was able to speak English because I don't speak Chinese and so they were pretty expensive. I think I racked up a total about $25,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends. That was holistic money coach Sarah Li Cain of the blog High Fiving Dollars and the podcast Beyond the Dollar, taking a stroll down memory lane to a financial experience she'd probably rather forget. But she got through it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome everyone and thanks for taking the time to join us here at Financial Grownup. We keep the shows on the short side so you can squeeze it into your busy day. But if you have more time, or are commuting, they are also meant to be listened to a few at a time. So when you subscribe, make sure the settings are at auto download and you will get three episodes each week.

Bobbi Rebell:
Back to Sarah. Her story is truly a financial grownup one because it begins with the birth of her first child which is a big life transition in and of itself, without all the financial responsibilities that comes with it, and she had to deal with a lot of money headaches. Here is Sarah Li Cain.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sarah Li Cain, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Sarah Li Cain:
Thank you so much for having me Bobbi. I'm a big fan.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh thank you, and I am a huge fan of yours ever since we met a couple of years ago actually at FinCon, which is a conference for content creators, because you were behind High Fiving Dollar and now the new Beyond the Dollar podcast. So congratulations on all of your success.

Sarah Li Cain:
Thank you so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are a holistic money coach. You also as I mentioned are a financial writer, and you are also someone who has worked all over the world, which brings us to the money story that you brought with you to share because it has to do with the time that you spent in China and something momentous that happened while you were there. Tell us.

Sarah Li Cain:
Yes, so actually spent a total about eight years in China. So before I was a writer and a money coach I was a elementary school teacher at a bunch of different international schools. My very last job, my husband and I found out that were pregnant. The interesting thing was in my contract the employer actually didn't pay for healthcare. So it's the employer legally has to provide you with healthcare, and so instead of actually giving us health insurance he had a little clause at the bottom of the contract that basically said we will reimburse 100% of any healthcare cost that you incur.

Bobbi Rebell:
That sounds really good.

Sarah Li Cain:
Yeah, it does, except if you don't have the money upfront and pay for that, then it makes it very difficult. And so for some of my coworkers-

Bobbi Rebell:
So you had to front the money?

Sarah Li Cain:
Yes. For some of my coworkers it was very difficult for them, number one, the ones who have children, they had to cover all their healthcare cost, and number two, I remember one of my coworkers had ... It wasn't major surgery but it was fairly big. She actually [inaudible 00:03:28] having to borrow money to cover that, until the employer was willing to basically reimburse it.

Bobbi Rebell:
So wait. Was it a situation where you would have to pay out of pocket and then basically fight to get reimbursed?

Sarah Li Cain:
Yes, exactly. So as long you had the receipt in theory they were going to pay you back. I don't think they really thought it through if someone were to get pregnant because healthcare is fairly cheap in China, but I chose to go with someone who was able to speak English because I don't speak Chinese and so they were pretty expensive. So I think I racked up a total about $25,000 American, including the birth, including the prenatal and postnatal care.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you had to forward that money, you had to pay that, and then try to get reimbursed?

Sarah Li Cain:
Yeah. One thing I did try to do was as the receipts payments, so every month when I'd have my prenatal appointments I would just sent, forward the receipt to my ... the owner of the school. Then the principal and I sat down and I said, "Listen, you know this is going to get really expensive. I'm going forward the boss or the owner a big, big bill, probably at least 10 grand after all of my prenatal appointments. He's going to have to be very careful because he's going to make sure, like, he's going to have that money and give it me." The principal and I actually worked together and figured out a way to approach the owner and how we were ... She was going to help me get that. The principal was going to help me get that money back.

Bobbi Rebell:
Was the school which is almost an independent school that did not have big financial resources, was that part of the issue why you were worried they wouldn't have the money?

Sarah Li Cain:
Part of it was the owner was new. I think he had taken over that school maybe for about a year, and number two, he's been, and this like anecdotal evidence, I haven't directly heard him say this but he's always mentioned about try to pay as little as possible for the foreign staff as he called us, and so I kind of knew that if I slapped him with this $25,000 bill that he'd probably pretty shocked and would try to find a way out of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what happened?

Sarah Li Cain:
I actually added up, I predicted all the cost for the birth and everything like that and I forwarded it to my principal. Then again the principal and I sat down and we basically said, "Okay, what's the best case scenario, what's the worst case, where can we meet in the middle with him." So we kind of came up with different ways to negotiate with him. The best case was he gives all that money back to me in one go. The second the best was if he paid in installments. And the worst case he refused.

Sarah Li Cain:
But I also said, "Hey, listen, I'm a great employee," and I actually calculated how many students that I brought into the school, so it kind of proved to him that like, hey, I'm helping you make money so therefore this little $25,000 expense wasn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things. What happened then was my principal then forwarded all of this information to the owner of the school and he actually agreed and was like, "Okay, I will pay all this back, I'll reimburse you as soon as you provide all the bills."

Bobbi Rebell:
And did they?

Sarah Li Cain:
Yes. So they did try to fight us a little bit. After my son was born my husband was the one to submit all the bills and so. Then they negotiated with him and said, "Well, we can't pay all this all at once. Is there some way we can just pay you back in increments?" So they did I think pay us the money back in about five installments but we did end up getting all the money back.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, that's great. But you used this to actually make broader changes.

Sarah Li Cain:
Yeah. The funny thing was I had no idea that my principal was trying to fight for everyone to get free health insurance. Again, the owner of the school had to legally provide this. She actually ended up using the large medical bill to say to the owner, was like, "Hey, listen, what if another one of your employees gets pregnant. That's like a huge cost," and then she actually presented him with different health insurance options in China and how it ended up being cheaper. And so because of what happened with me, the entire staff actually got free health insurance afterwards.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. So how did you feel during this time? I mean you're pregnant, you're having to fight for all this stuff. What were your coworkers saying?

Sarah Li Cain:
It was really interesting. My coworkers didn't necessarily directly ask me about the money side of things because I think in their mind they're like, "Oh man, Sarah's really going to have to fight for this money because the owner is such a cheapskate," as they called him. I was really thankful because ... So my husband and I worked together, and so he really advocated for me when I couldn't, like when I was out on maternity leave and when I was just too tired to really say anything. So he would push me like, "No, listen, Sarah, you have to fight this," or he would go in himself and then talk to the principal which I found out later that he did, and say like, "Here, how can we negotiate all of this?" If it wasn't for his support, I probably wouldn't be able to keep pursuing the money.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what is the lesson for our listeners?

Sarah Li Cain:
The lesson is number one, read your contract, and number two, stand your ground. If it says in your contract that you're supposed to get something, then fight for it because it's written down, it's not a verbal contract, it's a written contract, so definitely pursue it, and get as much support as you need in order to pursue it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Looking back is there anything you would've done different yourself?

Sarah Li Cain:
No, not at all.

Bobbi Rebell:
And Sarah, that brings us to your everyday money tip which also kind of has to do with your health and wellness.

Sarah Li Cain:
Yeah. One of the things I really strive to do is that whenever my husband and I are renting a new place, or when we're looking for a new apartment, we always make sure the kind of amenities there are. We're always looking for somewhere with a gym, how easy it is to walk from let's say the supermarket or my son's preschool, if there's a swimming pool, and just anything else where we don't have to spend extra money. For example, an apartment that we just rented is actually a five minute walk to my son's preschool, it's a few minutes walk to a couple of supermarkets, it's actually closer to my husband's work, it's got a gym, it's got a swimming pool, it's got a playground for my son. So we're effectively saving thousands of dollars a year because now that I can walk with my son to preschool, I don't need a second car. I can just walk again to the supermarket when I need to. I'm saving money on membership fees, things like that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. All right, Sarah, tell us more about what you're up to. I know you have started season two of your podcast.

Sarah Li Cain:
Yeah. So Beyond the Dollar I co-host it with another money coach, Garrett Philbin. We're just having a lot of fun. We discuss a lot of issues that go literally beyond the dollar, just not practical finance tips, but more of the deeper how money really affects your well being. You can also find me in High Fiving Dollars. I talk a lot about my personal life there. If you have any questions, I love answering reader questions there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Thank you Sarah.

Sarah Li Cain:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that Sarah and her husband paid it forward fighting for everyone else to have real health insurance even after they had won their own battle. Financial Grownup tip number one, whenever you know you're going to need to be reimbursed, as was the case with Sarah and her husband, document everything and make sure you have backups including electronic backups. I happen to use Evernote and Dropbox for storage, and I use an app called JotNot as a mobile scanner, and from that app I can upload to the Evernote and/or Dropbox accounts.

Bobbi Rebell:
Make sure you follow up on getting reimbursed, and on bills sometimes the way that the healthcare system is set up may not be as well-run as you would necessarily expect. If you want to learn more about the dangers of what can happen if you're not on top of these things, check out my interview with Chris Browning of the Popcorn Finance podcast. Just go to bobbirebell.com/podcast/chrisbrowning.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two, let's talk about lifestyle amenities because I know Sarah's a big fan of them. She makes this a priority. There's an upside and there's a downside. If you have amenities built into your rent or your home cost, you don't have to worry that if money gets tight or you just have a lot of expenses coming up or you're feeling uneasy about your financial situation, you're not going to feel pressured to say take a break from the gym. On the other hand, they do add to your overhead in most cases and if you're not going to use certain amenities, you need to factor that in and be honest with yourself.

Bobbi Rebell:
For example, just about all of us can at least make the argument that we can make good use of a gym. We might blow it off in reality, but we can at least make the case. That might be worth paying for when you're looking for a new residence, especially if it's in a community or an apartment building that has a really nice one. But if you don't have young kids, something like a playground does not add value to your life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those are pretty mainstream amenities, but some buildings can even have quirky amenities that sound so cool like wine cellars, relaxation lounges, climbing walls, hydrotherapy circuits, bowling allies, pet spas, and of course dog training studio, something we all look for. They are designed to wow buyers and renters, but just because something looks super cool when you're checking out the residence, doesn't mean it's something that you're going to actually use. If they deliver value for you, that's great. But some are just gimmicky and can up the prices. By the way, if you want to read about some of the crazy things happening in the amenities business, I'm going to leave a few fun articles about hot new amenities in the show notes for you guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you have not already hit that Subscribe button so you don't miss any upcoming episodes, remember, the episodes are short, about 15 minutes, so if you want to listen for longer, there are three new episodes every week so you can easily binge on a bunch if you have a long commute or you're just running errands and you want a little more content.

Bobbi Rebell:
Be in touch. I am on Twitter @bobbirebell, on Instagram @bobbirebell1, and on Facebook @bobbirebell, and of course DM me your feedback on the podcast. Thanks to Sarah Li Cain and her growing family for helping us get one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Writer Paulette Perhach, known for her F*** Off Fund articles and website, has been featured in Cosmo and Glamour, but collecting cash from her writing clients was killing her ability to be a financial grownup. Paulette also shares her secret to free stuff- and previews her upcoming book “Welcome to the Writer’s Life, our August 15.. 

In Paulette’s money story you will learn:

-Why Paulette struggles with accepting whether or not she is a financial grownup

-How Paulette became famous, but without the financial rewards following that fame

-The job Paulette had that taught the her most about sales and marketing

-What Paulette did on the day she realized she needed to make some cash- fast

-How Paulette keeps her expenses in check to allow her to pursue her writing career

-Why collecting pay, in a timely manner, is just as important as getting hired

-How Paulette adjusted her pitch to focus less on her needs, and more on her customer needs

-The strategy Paulette used to leverage the contacts she made on one day, into future long term and consistent clients

-The psychological technique Paulette uses when she feels discouraged

In Paulette’s money lesson you will learn:

-The importance of keeping expenses low when income is unpredictable- and specific strategies to do that.

-How and why pay does not line up with work, and how you can manage cash flow challenges

In Paulette’s money tip you will learn

-How she gets things for free!

-The specific items and services she has received that were given to her and why, along with how she contributes to her community

-Where you can find Buy Nothing groups

-About Paulette’s new book “Welcome to the Writers Life”

-Paulette’s advice: If you are in the arts, you are also in sales

In My Take you will learn:

-The importance of keeping overhead low when starting a business, and maintaining cost controls

-How to integrate money making ideas into things you already do and enjoy

Episode Links

Paulette' website: Fuckofffund.com

Follow Paulette- and her bank balances!

Twitter: @PaulettePerhach

Instagram: @PaulettePerhach

Hire Paulette as a writing consultant and much more!! https://hugohouse.org/store/consultant/paulette-perhach/

Pre-order Paulette’s book “Welcome to the Writers Life” !

If you want to be considered for an upcoming listener episode- email us your money story, money lesson and money tip to info@financialgrownup.com

If you want to win a free custom video promo- share and retweet the promos when you see them - and make sure to tag @bobbirebell

---

Transcription

Paulette Perhac:
It's never been too good to hustle. Some days, you got to hustle and yeah, I have a Cosmo magazine right over there with my name in it. Guess what? I have 15 bucks in my bank account like I need to hustle today.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of, How to be a Financial Grownup, but you know what, being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a Financial Grownup, one lesson and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this. Hey friends, before we get to our awesome guest, Paulette Perhac known for what she calls in our friendly universe, the Foe fund.

Bobbi Rebell:
It'll make sense, trust me. I just want to welcome all of our new listeners to the podcast and also welcome back our regular listeners. We keep your episodes short to fit your schedule, but also to be flexible. So you can binge and hear a few great stories when you have a little more time in your day. If you are enjoying the show, please take a moment to tell a friend about it. Share it on social media, we want to get your help growing the community and we really appreciate it by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now to our guest, Paulette, as you will hear, I joke with Paulette Perhac that she's not quite a financial grownup, but really are we ever? It's a process and for Paulette, the process has been painful at times. She has received a ton of acclaim for her writing and even has been able to raise her rates a bit, but collecting the cash, that has kept her on the financial edge and forced her to get creative. You're going to like this one. Here is Paulette Perhac. Hey Paulette Perhac you're a financial grownup or at least getting there. Welcome to the podcast.

Paulette Perhac:
Thanks for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
And we're getting it a little bit giggly, which will make a lot of sense in just a minute when Paulette tells her story. But you are an emerging major writer. You've had pieces all over the place including the piece that got you really famous called the F off Fund and we're going to keep it clean here so no worry. If you are in the car listening with your kids, but Paulette, before we get to your money story, tell us a little bit about this article that sort of blasted you into the universe.

Paulette Perhac:
So we call it in my family around my nephew the fore fund, so-

Bobbi Rebell:
The Fore fund, I like that.

Paulette Perhac:
As I was coming into my 30s and got a great job at a tech company and had for the first time a few thousand in the bank that didn't have a name on it. I was thinking back to some memories that I had of times that I was desperate for a job or couldn't move out because I just couldn't afford to. I realized, "Oh, it would've been so nice if I had, had this money in that bank account." And you don't really think about because humans have this optimism bias.

Paulette Perhac:
If you don't think bad situations you're going to get in. So, I really described a situation in which you do the normal thing. Where you're living paycheck to paycheck and then getting bad situations or if you decide to be someone who can have a fore fund in case you need it and what that would look like. So I described those two scenarios in the fore fund article. I thought it was just another essay and then it blew up and it went all around the world and just this month, both Cosmo and Glamour mentioned it. Two years later, which is crazy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Great, and now that's becoming a whole business, which we're going to circle back to. But I want to hear the money story that you're ready to share with us, and it's so apropos because just moments ago what crosses on my Instagram, but a snapshot of your bank account, which despite all of the success with your fore fund writing and the business that is emerging from that article, which is unbelievable, that this is all happening to you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sometimes massive career success and prominence does not always connect to money. So, you found yourself one day with how much money in your bank account would you say?

Paulette Perhac:
So I had about $900 and my rent on my tiny place in Seattle was about to come through at 795.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, because we were just joking about this, your apartment is how big.

Paulette Perhac:
It's 150 square feet.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Just saying not like you're living so large.

Paulette Perhac:
Not living so large. So I was like, "What do I do?" And I had just been feeling like I'm living large because you and I were in the Catskills in New York. I'm going to these parties with like Aaron Lowery and meeting with my editor at the New York Times and having breakfast with another reporter at the New York Times.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just like big media people, big stuff that's happening.

Paulette Perhac:
Yeah, big stuff is happening. Having meetings with people who are on the Forbes Top 100 most powerful women list. Awesome, right? And we're in talks about future projects, et cetera. So, it's like everything's coming together. Then I landed home and I'm like, I have $100. I don't have any work lined up. I just posted yesterday on Instagram a timeline of something I'm about to get paid for. I pitched that story on February 12th. So that shows you how long it takes to get from pitch to payment?

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Paulette Perhac:
And so I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I'm in trouble. What am I going to do?"

Bobbi Rebell:
You need cash immediately.

Paulette Perhac:
I need cash. Yeah. So the panic starts to rise up, right? And I've really realized this year that the panic is not helping you and so you just have to calm down whenever you feel those feelings. I'm like, what will help you feel more powerful? I'm like, you need like an adult lemonade stand, and I just decided a lemonade stand-

Bobbi Rebell:
And by lemonade stand, what do you mean?

Paulette Perhac:
I mean like a personal mini business from which you feel fairly confident you could make some money in the next 24 hours and that's marketing, execution and billing. So, I took the last of my business cards and I printed up a label for the back. Mother's Day was that Sunday, so I'm like, Mother's Day, I'm hustling. So I printed up labels that said mother's Day photos, like quick and easy or quick and fun. Mother's Day photos, 15 minutes, 20 bucks.

Paulette Perhac:
And I took my camera. I looked at like, what are my assets, right? I have a car, I could drive around, I can't do uber, it's from 1996. So I could deliver food.

Bobbi Rebell:
Uber has standards.

Paulette Perhac:
Uber has standards, I do not. A to B, that's my standard. So I looked at my other asset, which is this really nice camera that I bought as an investment in my writing, in travel writing business. So I just went around and hustled all day, Mother's Day. I think I walked six miles. I ran out of business cards, but I-

Bobbi Rebell:
What was your pitch? Tell us your pitch.

Paulette Perhac:
My pitch. I started by being like, "Hi, I'm a local writer and a photographer," and people were just like, "ugh." So, I realize I'm talking about myself. Nope, so it evolves over the day to focus on the customer and I just said, "Hi, happy mother's Day," because no one's like, "Go away if you say Happy Mother's Day." I said, "Happy Mother's day, if you guys want a nice photo, I'm doing $20 portraits today." So it was a really fun day overall.

Paulette Perhac:
I felt empowered. I felt like I was taking control and then I got some follow up clients actually, I'm rewriting one of the groups of women. One of them was from San Francisco. She's a realtor from San Francisco. We got to talking. They were great, I gave them a little bit of extra time just because it was fun, and she is hiring me to rewrite her bio for 300 bucks.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so awesome. That's so awesome. Wait, so how much did you make that day and how much did you make from that day going forward?

Paulette Perhac:
So my supplies were 12, and then I had to get more cards printed, which was like 33. So I was like, "Oh my gosh." So after taking those out, I only made $85 that day, which is not a ton, it's not nothing. What I realized was that I now have given my card out to a bunch of people who know I'm a photographer.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Paulette Perhac:
One woman was pregnant, she asked me if I do maternity photos, and then next time what I'll do is just have an A frame sign and stay in one place. Because I think that, that will be more successful, less hustling work for me. I laid down at the end of that day in the park after giving out all my cards, and I was just pooped. I felt really good. I felt like the best kind of exhausted.

Bobbi Rebell:
But you did something.

Paulette Perhac:
Yeah, I did something.

Bobbi Rebell:
You did something, like you had a problem, and you did something proactive to solve it instead of just kind of living in your panic about money.

Paulette Perhac:
Yeah, and I think self-pity is really dangerous, especially if you work in the arts, because you have to remember like I chose this life, what am I going to do about it? Sitting there and just being like, "Wheh, I don't get paid on time. Wheh, it's hard to be a writer." Not saying I never sit there, but when I'm in that space I realize that it's dangerous.

Bobbi Rebell:
Talk about the lessons that you would share with our listeners. What's the takeaway here?

Paulette Perhac:
So I think the takeaway is knowing that you don't owe a whole lot. So for me low overhead is really important. You know, it's just nice to know that my rent including utilities, is 795, I almost never feel like, "Oh I can't pay that." I also have a book coming out in August, so that's a lot of unpaid marketing work for the book.

Paulette Perhac:
So I think having that plan, like knowing like what would I do today if I needed money and just knowing, so like for example, I'm going to go to a music festival over Memorial Day and I'm going to do it again, taking music festival portraits there. I'm really excited about that, and I think it's going to get better and better, and I'm going to make more and more every time I need to do that.

Paulette Perhac:
And I think eventually I won't need to do it anymore, but it's never been too good to hustle too. Some days you got to hustle, and yeah I have a Cosmo magazine right over there with my name in it. Guess what? I have 15 bucks in my bank account like I need to hustle today.

Bobbi Rebell:
So Paulette, tell us about your money tip.

Paulette Perhac:
So my favorite secret money tip is to join a buy nothing group, which are these groups that are popping up that kind of celebrate trading, and giving and, just offering if you have anything. And so I just got a Le Creuset casserole dish on it yesterday. I got a vacuum last week, and then when I moved into my tiny place, and I had a ton of stuff to give away, I gave away a bunch of stuff. I just got a haircut this morning on the buy nothing group at a place that usually probably costs 100 bucks for a haircut.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, how do they make sure that people don't come on and just take, take, take.

Paulette Perhac:
You could just take, take, take. I haven't seen that problem yet. You know, I think people are willing to give. It's things that they would be giving away anyway, but I have found that the more that I get from it, the more I want to give. And people have offered financial advice, people have offered instruments, and it's just kind of this nice community, especially if you live in a big city, it's a very small area. So now I kind of know my neighbors more.

Bobbi Rebell:
So how do you find these groups?

Paulette Perhac:
So I would google buy nothing, mine is the Facebook group.

Bobbi Rebell:
Is there criteria to get in, or they just let anyone in? How is it? It sounds too good to be true.

Paulette Perhac:
I know, right? Well, I think the thing is I've been in both situations where the things that people have given me have helped me so much to get new furniture or whatever. And so then once I got from the group giving was a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're also so much part of the writer's community. You spend so much of your time and energy giving back to other writers and supporting writers. Tell us about your book that's coming out soon. It's happening.

Paulette Perhac:
So on August 15th, my book, Welcome to the Writer's life is coming out, which is everything I've learned about the writing business, the writing craft and the writing life from being in a writing community. So it's a very crowd sourced book and very much wanting to give back what I've gained from living in a creative community. And it's like freshman orientation for new writers, and a lot of people have benefited from it even if they do business writing or side writing. You don't have to be a full time writer, you just have to want to get joy out of the act of writing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what have you learned in your years about the business of writing? In other words, you talk about how hard it is to get paid.

Paulette Perhac:
I think if you're in the arts, you are also in sales, which we don't want to say out loud, but you have your leads, you have to bring your value prop, like you have to sell your stuff, and consider yourself a business. I wish that I had said I'm starting a freelance business, rather than I'm going freelance because that's what it is. So you're not ready for operations and marketing and sales and you just get sledge hammered by the reality of like, "Oh I got to go sell today," which is like what you have to do.

Paulette Perhac:
So I've been in it like two years full-time, and I'm just now like, I have a whole share point for my writing business. I'm getting serious because I don't want to fail.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Miss Paulette, how can people find you and follow you and hire you most importantly?

Paulette Perhac:
Yes so send money to ... No. I'm on Twitter @Pauletteperhac. My website is fuckofffund spelled out, .com, so fuckofffund.com, and I'm on Instagram @PauletteJperhac where you can see my bank balances. Just google me and you'll find me, and I have a lot of different projects. Mostly I want to bring people who want to live creative lives. I want to help them make the creative life happen while I figure it out. That's really the thing is like I'm someone who's traditionally bad with money.

Paulette Perhac:
I'm getting better with money and want to live that creative life. I love my life. I love my day to day that this is my life and I want to make it work. So I want to help other people do it too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we love watching your star rise, so thank you so much.

Paulette Perhac:
Thank you so much, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
There is so much we can all learn from Paulette. I hope you enjoyed that interview. Financial Grownup tip number one. When you are running a business or just the business of your life, keep your overhead low. Paulette lives in a very expensive city, but she makes it work by keeping those costs down and living anything but large. Her apartment, as she mentioned, is a 150 square feet. That's a closet to some people, some very fortunate people, but still some people.

Bobbi Rebell:
She also literally does not pay for things. She's in a buy nothing group. So maybe find a buy nothing group near you. What a great tip. Financial Grownup tip number two, integrate your hustle into things you're already doing. Paulette loves to go to concerts and festivals, so she brings her camera and her business cards and you know what? She makes money even while living her life. Thanks Paulette. We have our first listener episode coming up very soon in the month of June.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you want to be on the show and have a great money story to share, email us at info@financialgrownup and tell us what the story is and what your everyday money tip would be if you were to be chosen. Thank you for being part of our Financial Grownup community. If you're enjoying the show, consider leaving a rating or review. And of course hit that subscribe button to make sure you don't miss any episodes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Follow me on Twitter @Bobbirebell, on Instagram @Bobbirebell1, and by the way, thanks for the great feedback on our promo videos. If you would like one for you or for your business, share the video when you see them. We'll be making one for whoever shares the most between now and July, 1st. You could even see them by the way, on our new YouTube channel. Just search for Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell, and you will find it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, soon after we taped Paulette's interview, she did finally get paid by her client, so a happy ending there. A quick reminder, Paulette's book, Welcome to the Writer's Life is available for pre order, so go get it. I think it's safe to say her story successfully brought us all one step closer to being Financial Grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.