Anne-Lyse, author of Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids, shares her money tips for home buyers as well as her experiences and lessons to not get taken advantage of in business- especially from people you think you can trust.

Anne-Lyse’s Money Story

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure, absolutely. When my husband and I were getting ready to buy a first home, we were looking in a specific neighborhood. And after a little while we found our home. And we went through the normal process to get a loan. We got a home inspection, and we were excited. We were going to become homeowners. We had our first child. Then we had two other kids. And one day, we decided to go out of town for the weekend.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
As first-time homeowners, we didn't know that when you leave, even if it's for a couple of days, it's probably a good idea to shut down the water at your house. So we came back to a...

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, just pause right there. I don't think a lot of people do know that, because that's a big tip right there. We live in an apartment. We don't shut off all of our water. I don't even know if that's possible in an apartment, but this is certainly news to me. When you leave a house, you're supposed to turn off the whole water system. Not just not leave a faucet running.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes. It's advice to shut off the water system, and we didn't know until this happened to us. When we came back, our house was... I mean, the main floor, which was the kitchen, there was water damage. It had gone all the way down to our basement. We had to redo the entire main level of the floors. We had to redo the basement. And it all happened because the water line connected to the dishwasher, there was an issue there. And then we were out of town for a couple of days. So by the time we came back, it was a complete mess.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had to move out of our house for about I want to say six weeks. At the time, we had twin babies and a three-year-old. It took a while for the house to be renovated. We stayed in temporary housing for a little bit. And luckily, our insurance company covered most of the costs, but we found out that they weren't going to renew our policy. Two lessons there. The first one is, well, first of all, make sure that you shut off your water when you are leaving for more than a day.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And then the second one is before signing up for insurance, you talk to your insurance company and understand their policies. Because what we found out is the prior year, there was hailstorm in our neighborhood and our roof was damaged. The insurance company had replaced our roof, so that was two claims in two years. But those were the only claims we've had in about, I think, four years. The policy was if you have two claims in the past five years, well, you need to find a new insurance company.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And even though those were the only things that we've ever had, we had a really hard time finding another company to cover our insurance. As a result of that, our premium went up by, I think, five or six times. My advice is make sure that you understand the policies that your insurance company has. And also like for us, when we finally got out of that five-year range, we signed up for a company that allowed two incidents to happen without basically cutting you off after five years.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
So now we have a company that will let you have two incidents in two, three years as opposed to five.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one thinks about that kind of thing, so I think that's a great lesson. What other lessons do you have as a first time home buyer for first time home buyers?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When we went through the process to get our loan approved, we went through the inspection. There was some initial structural damage that had been fixed by the previous owner, and we received a letter from the engineer. The engineer came back and provided a letter to say that everything was back in order. But when it was time for us to sell our home I want to say five, six years later, we were in the process of getting everything done. We had an offer on the table.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one. It turns out that the structural damage was not fixed. It was a much bigger problem than we thought, and the buyer pulled their offer. It was the same structural engineer that we had hired a couple of months prior to make sure that everything was back on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think here the lesson is, and nothing against real estate investors, but when you do buy a home, just consider bringing in your own structural engineer. But when you do buy from an investor, pay even more attention to everything that's going on within the house. Because in this situation, they didn't really fix the problem. They put a bandaid on it and it got worse with time. As a result of that, we ended up selling the house for $100,000 less than we were expected to.

Bobbi Rebell:
It was the same inspector, so he changed his report?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
It wasn't an inspector. It was a structural engineer. The inspector cleared the house, but he recommended that we get a letter from the structural engineer that had done the work. The structural engineer came back, provided a report. But then a few years down the line when we were getting ready to sell the home, we hired another engineer to make sure that we were on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When the buyer asked that we provided the number of the engineer, we didn't have a problem because we knew that everything was good. But the engineer came back and gave them a report, refused to show us a report saying that we had to also pay the fee so that they would give us the report. And after that, the buyer just walked away and we hired another company. And that's when we realized that no, it was going to cost a lot more to fix the problem.

Bobbi Rebell:
The same structural engineer changed his story?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you confront them about this?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, when this happened, he was like, "Well, I came probably..." I think it was maybe six months or a year prior things changed, so we couldn't really prove that he had given us a different scenario. He had recommended that we do work. We did the work. After that, he refused to show us the report. To this day, I haven't seen the report that he gave to the buyer.

Anne-Lyse’s Money Lesson + Money Tip

I think the tip for us is if you do buy a house that is a preexisting home, it's not a bad idea to go one step further than just hiring a home inspector, getting a structural engineer. In our case, I think it would have been better to get two different engineers so we could make an educated decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which seems expensive in the short-term, but clearly it costs you in the long-term not doing that, right?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Exactly. I think I would have gladly paid the extra $500 and save $100,000.

Follow Anne-Lyse!

• Instagram - @annelysewealth

• Facebook - @annelysewealth

• Twitter - @annelysewealth

• Pinterest - @annelysewealth

• Website - http://dreamoflegacy.com

• Book - Dream of Legacy

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have this solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates, if you can't decide. Use code "grownup" for a 15% off your first order.

Bobbi Rebell:
Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had an offer on the table. We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you wondering what that surprise was? Well, get ready to learn so much in this episode with Anne-Lyse. She has a wealth coach, a writer, and host of The Dreamers Podcast. She's also the founder of dreamoflegacy.com, a platform dedicated to inspiring millennials to build wealth with purpose, as well as the author of Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview, Anne-Lyse is very honest about the mistakes that she and her husband made with their home and all the grownup responsibilities that came with residential ownership. And here's the thing, even though she felt she should have done certain things that might have saved her from a lot of financial pain, the so-called mistakes were things that frankly all of us do, or in some cases, don't do. Please listen carefully because I don't want anyone else to get hurt the way she and her family did.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now later in the interview, things get even more real when Anne-Lyse shares details of how her father lost everything he had worked for, and she mentions it in the book, but she doesn't go into a lot of details. In our interview, I was really moved that she felt comfortable enough to share the details that weren't revealed in the book, and I am truly grateful for it. You are all going to benefit from it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Listening to this interview will be time very well spent. Here is Anne-Lyse. Anne-Lyse, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Hi, Bobbi. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm excited to talk in a few minutes about your book, Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids. But first, I wanted you to come on and talk about your experience buying a new home and sharing some of your tips for new home buyers, because that is something so many people are doing right now. Give us some context though first, Anne-Lyse. Tell us what happened to you and then we'll get to your tips.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure, absolutely. When my husband and I were getting ready to buy a first home, we were looking in a specific neighborhood. And after a little while we found our home. And we went through the normal process to get a loan. We got a home inspection, and we were excited. We were going to become homeowners. We had our first child. Then we had two other kids. And one day, we decided to go out of town for the weekend.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
As first-time homeowners, we didn't know that when you leave, even if it's for a couple of days, it's probably a good idea to shut down the water at your house. So we came back to a...

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, just pause right there. I don't think a lot of people do know that, because that's a big tip right there. We live in an apartment. We don't shut off all of our water. I don't even know if that's possible in an apartment, but this is certainly news to me. When you leave a house, you're supposed to turn off the whole water system. Not just not leave a faucet running.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes. It's advice to shut off the water system, and we didn't know until this happened to us. When we came back, our house was... I mean, the main floor, which was the kitchen, there was water damage. It had gone all the way down to our basement. We had to redo the entire main level of the floors. We had to redo the basement. And it all happened because the water line connected to the dishwasher, there was an issue there. And then we were out of town for a couple of days. So by the time we came back, it was a complete mess.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had to move out of our house for about I want to say six weeks. At the time, we had twin babies and a three-year-old. It took a while for the house to be renovated. We stayed in temporary housing for a little bit. And luckily, our insurance company covered most of the costs, but we found out that they weren't going to renew our policy. Two lessons there. The first one is, well, first of all, make sure that you shut off your water when you are leaving for more than a day.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And then the second one is before signing up for insurance, you talk to your insurance company and understand their policies. Because what we found out is the prior year, there was hailstorm in our neighborhood and our roof was damaged. The insurance company had replaced our roof, so that was two claims in two years. But those were the only claims we've had in about, I think, four years. The policy was if you have two claims in the past five years, well, you need to find a new insurance company.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And even though those were the only things that we've ever had, we had a really hard time finding another company to cover our insurance. As a result of that, our premium went up by, I think, five or six times. My advice is make sure that you understand the policies that your insurance company has. And also like for us, when we finally got out of that five-year range, we signed up for a company that allowed two incidents to happen without basically cutting you off after five years.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
So now we have a company that will let you have two incidents in two, three years as opposed to five.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one thinks about that kind of thing, so I think that's a great lesson. What other lessons do you have as a first time home buyer for first time home buyers?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When we went through the process to get our loan approved, we went through the inspection. There was some initial structural damage that had been fixed by the previous owner, and we received a letter from the engineer. The engineer came back and provided a letter to say that everything was back in order. But when it was time for us to sell our home I want to say five, six years later, we were in the process of getting everything done. We had an offer on the table.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one. It turns out that the structural damage was not fixed. It was a much bigger problem than we thought, and the buyer pulled their offer. It was the same structural engineer that we had hired a couple of months prior to make sure that everything was back on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think here the lesson is, and nothing against real estate investors, but when you do buy a home, just consider bringing in your own structural engineer. But when you do buy from an investor, pay even more attention to everything that's going on within the house. Because in this situation, they didn't really fix the problem. They put a bandaid on it and it got worse with time. As a result of that, we ended up selling the house for $100,000 less than we were expected to.

Bobbi Rebell:
It was the same inspector, so he changed his report?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
It wasn't an inspector. It was a structural engineer. The inspector cleared the house, but he recommended that we get a letter from the structural engineer that had done the work. The structural engineer came back, provided a report. But then a few years down the line when we were getting ready to sell the home, we hired another engineer to make sure that we were on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When the buyer asked that we provided the number of the engineer, we didn't have a problem because we knew that everything was good. But the engineer came back and gave them a report, refused to show us a report saying that we had to also pay the fee so that they would give us the report. And after that, the buyer just walked away and we hired another company. And that's when we realized that no, it was going to cost a lot more to fix the problem.

Bobbi Rebell:
The same structural engineer changed his story?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you confront them about this?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, when this happened, he was like, "Well, I came probably..." I think it was maybe six months or a year prior things changed, so we couldn't really prove that he had given us a different scenario. He had recommended that we do work. We did the work. After that, he refused to show us the report. To this day, I haven't seen the report that he gave to the buyer.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson and the tip from that?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think the tip for us is if you do buy a house that is a preexisting home, it's not a bad idea to go one step further than just hiring a home inspector, getting a structural engineer. In our case, I think it would have been better to get two different engineers so we could make an educated decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which seems expensive in the short-term, but clearly it costs you in the long-term not doing that, right?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Exactly. I think I would have gladly paid the extra $500 and save $100,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I think so. This breaks my heart. It unfortunately reminds me of some things that you share in your book, which I mentioned at the top of the episode. It's called Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids. But in that, you recall a lot of your family experiences and the money experiences of your parents. Can you share a little bit of that, because I believe there's a lot of tips we can learn from that?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure. I think there's so much to talk about here. But if I want to focus on the essential, one thing that I learned from my parents growing up is to live below your means.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that was especially important in your community. Can you talk about that and the cultural pressures that they did have?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Oh, absolutely. My parents had five biological children, but I grew up in a house full of cousins. A bunch of my cousins lived with us because in my culture, the person who makes it is expected to take care of the family. My parents were not only taking care of us financially, but they were financially providing for cousins and even like their siblings. There's a lot of financial pressure that comes with getting to a good place financially.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think one of the reason why my parents always lived below their means, and also just preparing for the unexpected. I'll share here a couple of instances where that will really help them and our family. One of them is... Sometime in the '90s, my father, he had a business partner that he had worked with for a while, and they had a couple of businesses together, or actually I should say, so he thought, because it turns out that...

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I don't know if you've ever watched the movie Catch Me If You Can, but his business partner was actually a master at deceiving. There were a couple of businesses that they had started and he basically robbed my father of a significant amount of money. To be fully transparent, that was in the '90s and it's the equivalent of $700,000 in today's dollars.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow!

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes, and that was very complicated schemes that his business partner did. Overnight your retirement funds or some of your retirement funds disappeared. It took a few years for my father to realize what this man was knowing, because he was not only his business partner, he was also his lawyer. So that definitely impacted my parents' bottom line. But because they had been living below their means, they were able to sustain that challenge.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Later on, my mother was diagnosed with a long-term illness and she kind of overnight needed 24-hour care. My parents live in a country where insurance or disability insurance is not really a thing. You have to finance it yourself. Now all of a sudden, my mother was working, so it's down to just one person working, and now you have to pay for very heavy medical fees. If my parents hadn't lived below their means, they wouldn't have been able to.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow! This is a lot. I'm so happy that they did do that. What is the tip from that, I guess, beyond obviously you want to live below your means?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, that's the main tip, but I think just in general... This is more like a general tip. You just have to double and triple check and even the people who are supposed to be your advisors, whether it's your financial or your lawyer, you just have to make sure that they are serving your best interests and you cannot blindly trust them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Don't blindly trust somebody. Yes. Check the paperwork. Even if someone else's is doing it and you think that they're taking care of everything and you trust them, it's still important to get in there and understand what's going on yourself. This has been wonderful. Anne-Lyse, where can people find out more about you and about Anne-Lyse Wealth?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure. I am at dreamoflegacy.com if you want to visit me there and sign up for my newsletter. You can also find out more about my book, which is Dream of Legacy, on my website or on Amazon. And I'm also on Instagram and Twitter @annelysewealth, which is A-N-N-E-L-Y-S-E-W-E-A-L-T-H.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for sharing so much. I really loved having you.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, grownups, let's review just some of the highlights from this interview with Anne-Lyse. Be careful when you buy insurance. Actually read and make sure you understand all the coverage limits. And if you don't fully understand it, take it to someone who can walk you through how things would actually play out in different scenarios. You don't think you're going to have those multiple claims, but, well, that's what insurance is for, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Double and triple check with a home inspectors and engineers so you do know the actual true status of your home's structural health and make sure you document everything. Just because you think you can trust someone like a business partner who is a dear friend and, in the case of Anne-Lyse's father, you're a long time lawyer, you still need to be checking the numbers. Do not trust blindly. That's a harsh lesson, but yeah. Be aware of cultural money pressures.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, Anne-Lyse talked about this a little bit, but I strongly recommend everyone read her book, Dream of Legacy, because in it she talks about the cultural norms that can often lead to damaging financial decisions and habits in the black community. Every culture is different, of course. But whatever your heritage is, it's important to identify and understand how it impacts the money habits for you and for those around you. I would love to hear how you think the environment, culture, and even the people around you impact your money decisions.

Bobbi Rebell:
DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. And if you aren't already subscribed, please sign up for my now weekly money tips newsletter. You're going to get insights about our interviews, previews of upcoming Clubhouse sessions, and links to relevant news and information to lead your best brought up life. Big thanks to Anne-Lyse of Anne-Lyse Wealth for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast's show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler, authors of "The Future is Faster Than You Think: How Converging Technologies Are Transforming Business, Industries And Our Lives" join Bobbi with a preview of their latest book, and specific ways money-related changes will impact us in the coming years. 

8 Ways Money Will Change the Future

1. We’re going to live longer—we’ll need to approach retirement very differently

2. Demonetization is going to radically alter education, travel etc.

3. Convergence means that future financial investment opportunities can lie between industries and in mash-up markets

4. New players in Finance (Google, for example, just went into banking)

5. Insurance is going to radically change and whole categories will vanish

6. Your AI is going to be making a lot of your buying decisions for you.

7 You also say we are moving to a cashless future 

8 -Blockchain will continue to disrupt traditional banking, spreading widely into the developed world much like it’s already transformed financial systems in developing countries.

Episode Links:

• Peter's website - www.diamandis.com

• Steven’s website - www.stevenkotler.com

Follow Peter!

• Twitter - @PeterDiamandis

• Facebook - @PeterDiamandis

• LinkedIn - @peterdiamandis

Follow Steven!

• Instagram - @kotler.steven

• Twitter - @steven_kotler

• Facebook - @KotlerSteven

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us a little bit about the book, just quickly before we get into some really cool stuff you're going to share with us.

Steven Kotler:
The future we talk about in the book, for some people is scary, because people are not used to this rapid rate of change. The best solution for that fear is really having an understanding of where the world is going. Part of the mission of the book is to give people a clear vision of the future that these converging technologies are enabling. For most of the case, this is an incredible win for consumers, an uplifting of abundance in the world, where ultimately these exponential converging technologies are helping to meet the need of every man, woman, and child on the planet. That makes for a world that is, in my ... in our mind, I would say safer and better for humanity, so this is a hopeful book that builds the case for creating a better world for tomorrow.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's really a roadmap into how money is going to change in the future and, most importantly, how we can and frankly need to be ready. A lot of this is not just you guys talking. There's a lot of scientific research here and a lot tying in technology to money and how it's going to specifically impact our lives. You're going to give us a preview, and you brought with you a list of different ways that all these things are going to affect money and our lives. Let's start with the first thing on your list. This is about our approach to retirement and longevity.

Peter Diamandis:
Sure, let me jump in there, because it's an area that I spend a lot of time investing in and time building companies around, and it's the notion that we're going to be heading to a world in which we're not dying at age 70 or 80, that we're living a healthy lifespan to 90, to 100, to 110, eventually 120. In our book, The Future is Faster Than You Think, we have an entire chapter on healthcare and a chapter on longevity that tracks these different technologies, billions of dollars flowing into them. If you think about it, there's no larger business opportunity than extending the healthy human lifespan. So, I think this is a reality and I think people need to start thinking about, "Do I have to save enough money to live to be 100 years old or 110 years old?" Because if you can have the aesthetics, the cognition and mobility at 100 that you had at 60, why wouldn't you want to? It's not about living in a wheelchair, it's about living a vibrant life. So, that's the first thing. We're going to live longer. We're going to live healthier, and we have to prepare for that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Such a great point. Let's move onto the second point. This is fascinating, demonetization, because this goes into things that we love, like travel, right, Steven?

Steven Kotler:
Yeah, so demonetization is essentially the removal of money from the equation. The simple example that we're all familiar with is the smartphone. So when Peter and I wrote the first book in the trilogy, [inaudible 00:05:30], we're calling the Exponential Mindset trilogy, with our latest book, The Future is Faster Than You Think is the third installment in. In Abundance, back when we started, we looked at all the technology that shows up for free, demonetized completely, in your smartphone. In 1980s prices, it was over a million dollars-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Steven Kotler:
In music players, in Encyclopedias, in GPS, and on and on and on. So, this is a million dollars worth of stuff that has been dematerialized. It doesn't exist anymore. It comes for free in your phone. This is ... Whenever technologies go exponential, one of the things that starts to happen almost automatically is they begin to demonetize, and this is going into every industry. Travel is a really radical example, both because we're seeing ... over the next 10 years, we're going to see technology such as the Hyperloop, which is high speed trains, maglev trains, 750 miles an hour, so suddenly San Francisco to LA is a 20-minute commute or Las Vegas to San Francisco is a 20-minute commute, which, by the way, totally changes the real estate picture and your local school metric and your dating pool and all that stuff, besides the point, but you've got five or six other technologies, autonomous cars, flying cars, rockets, et cetera.

Steven Kotler:
Then, you have avatars and virtual reality, which completely demonetizes travel. Now we already have avatars and virtual worlds, but if you can put on VR goggles and have an avatar attend a meeting that you need to attend and you've got haptic technology so you can shake hands with other people and be there, or you can have telepresence robots waiting for you that you sort of rent by the hour in your destination city and you can port your senses using VR into the robot and then send the robot onto stage to give a speech for you or whatnot. This sounds crazy far future, but Peter's company, the X Prize, it's [nepon 00:07:29], right, Peter?

Peter Diamandis:
It's all Nepon Airways, ANA Airlines, has basically said, "How do we displace the need for airplanes? How do you not put yourself in an aluminum tube and fly someplace?" They launched a $10 million dollar avatar X Prize. Can we build the avatars, like Steven was saying, then I can transport my consciousness, my senses, and my actions hundreds or thousands of miles away instead of flying in an airplane.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow, so cool. Let's talk about the investment opportunities angle here, because you say convergence means that future of financial investment opportunities can lie between industries and mashup markets. What does that mean?

Peter Diamandis:
It means that we have pure play investments before in a computer company or communications company or a healthcare company, but all of these things are beginning to blur, right? We're seeing Amazon all of a sudden going from a bookseller to a food company when it buys Whole Foods and it's now moving into healthcare and into finance. So, we're going to start to see companies that are blurring the lines between what have been traditional areas. A lot of the companies that are going to be crushing it are data-driven companies. Google and Amazon and Apple are in our home and they're going to start to play increasingly different roles. It was interesting that Tim Cook, we talk about this in The Future is Faster Than You Think. Tim Cook makes a statement like, "In the future, Apple is going to be best known for its impact on healthcare." Wow. So, we're going to start to see a lot of these blurred lines. So, when you are excited about investing in a particular industry or particular area, it's not going to be the traditional players. It's going to be a new set of players coming in from unpredictable adjacencies.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which dovetails to your point that there's going to be a lot of new players in finance.

Steven Kotler:
There are going to be a lot of new players in finance and finance as a whole is going to radically change. We've seen this already. We've seen what AI did to finance. At this point, when there's height rating volume, for example, 90% of the trades on Wall Street are being made by computers at this point. That's just today and where we are, but to Peter's point, the advantage you get is data, right? The more data you have, the bigger understanding you have of markets. We'll see this in traditional finance. We're going to see this playing huge roles in insurance. We're going to see this show up in real estate. It's really going to transform the financial landscape. The first inklings of it, companies like IBM, lots in doing wealth management services, right? It's going to mean that people working in the finance space, creativity is going to become the most important skill going forward. This was not a skill 20 years ago you would have really associated with finance and now it's the key skill because everything else that can be automatized will probably be automatized.

Bobbi Rebell:
Insurance, it is going to radically change.

Peter Diamandis:
Insurance is going to change dramatically and we are going to go away from what was the old actuarial tables of, statistically, over a population of 100,000 people, here's the probability. That's not going to be the case. Now it's like, okay, this is specifically the probability for you, given the technology you're enabling, given the way you eat, exercise, and so forth, your genetics and such. We're going to insure you personally and we're going to work to keep you healthier longer, alive longer, fire free, theft free, and that's our job now. So, interesting change, which makes the world a better place, and people will want that kind of insurance over the "We'll pay you after the disaster occurred."

Steven Kotler:
The other thing I want to add to that is, of course with autonomous cars, car insurance as a category goes away. Right? If the cars are driving themselves and they don't crash, car insurance goes away or at least the risk, it shifts from the consumer, right? Google, with Waymo, [inaudible 00:11:33] with Waymo, they provide ... everybody who gets in the car automatically gets insurance because they're the one who controls the autonomous car, so that's another category that's going to disappear.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's talk about artificial intelligence. How will this affect, for example, the everyday consumer, people buying stuff?

Peter Diamandis:
So, interestingly enough, we're all going to have a version of Jarvis from Iron Man. If you remember Jarvis, Tony Stark had this AI that was in his suit and in his home. He would talk to it and Jarvis would be like a personal, intelligent butler or assistant in this regard. We have the early versions of this with Amazon Echo. We have the early versions of that with Google Home and such, but one thing that's going to happen in the consumer world is that your AI's going to do your buying for you. If your AI is doing your buying for you of foods or consumer products in general, what's that do to advertising, right? If I'm not making the decisions anymore, you can throw all the ads at me you want, but my AI is actually looking at my genetics and the molecular makeup of the toothpaste and saying, "This toothpaste is better for you than this one. Everyone in your peer group, Peter, is buying this and enjoying it and it's cheaper, so I'm buying that for you." You get a new toothpaste and go, "Oh, I like this one better." Right? So the world becomes auto-magical.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love it, because it can save a lot of money for consumers, and time and energy, to not have that decision making stress, because every decision is stress.

Steven Kotler:
Absolutely. These are parts of where the world is going, and not in 30 years or 20 years, this next decade, which is what we outlined in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
Last thing I want to go through is you say we're moving to a cashless future, to the surprise of, really, no one, I think. I think everyone kind of sees the writing on the wall with this one.

Steven Kotler:
Where it starts to get really interesting is, for example, Amazon Go. This is a cashierless checkout where you scan a QR code on your way into the store on your phone, you take the items off the shelf, sensors in the items notice that you've taken it, the AI cameras pick it up, and it's automatically deducted from your account, which is linked, too, in your cellphone and there's no more cash in the equation. This is ... Those stores are here. They're rolling out at scale over the next couple of years. I'm sure there are probably always going to be craft retail stores, like throwback stores. We still have [inaudible 00:13:50] and the chain here, but at convenience stores, at gas stations, at grocery stores, places we're already seeing automated checkout anyways, right? We're checking ourselves out and it's a pain in the butt, but now the hassle is gone. Obviously the savings for retail is enormous. There's no way to compete.

Bobbi Rebell:
What can the average person be doing to get ready for this future?

Peter Diamandis:
We put out something called Abundance Insider, which is a weekly email of how the world is getting more abundant and how to see this positive news. There are amazing books that Steven have written. Please read Abundance and Bold, which are the first two books in the Exponential Mindset series.

Steven Kotler:
Yeah, the only other thing I would add is, there's a human performance side of this, which I tend to work on the Flow Research Collective, so if you want to know what you can do in your own life to keep up in an accelerating world, the website for the flowresearchcollective.com will give you tons and tons of information there.

Journalist Jeanne Pinder, founder of ClearHeathCosts reveals how medical costs can vary widely for the same products and procedures- and how we can find out- and negotiate- to get the best price.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Jeanne’s website - clearhealthcosts.com

• GOODRX.com

• Negotiating Bills

• wnyc.org/healthcosts

Follow Jeanne + Clear Health Costs!

• Facebook - @ClearHealthCosts

• Twitter - @chcosts

• LinkedIn - @jeannepinder

• Pinterest - @chcosts

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup Guide, how to pay less for healthcare. Like a Financial Grownup with Clear Health Costs, Jeanne Pinder. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. We've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
No secret. Our healthcare costs are ridiculous. What makes matters even worse is that it is one of the few things that we buy where we don't even know what it costs. In fact, we don't even ask ahead of time. Very often we don't negotiate. We don't know what the competition is charging and there is often zero transparency. The costs are all over the place. For example, a simple blood test could be $500 in one place, $7 nearby. An MRI routine procedure can cost $300 to $6,000 in another location just a few blocks away. Very few of us even think to compare costs and shop around the way we do almost obsessively sometimes for everyday items.

Bobbi Rebell:
This is an urgent episode. I worked to bring it to you for a very long time. I am really excited about it. As you can tell as a journalist, I can tell you I really appreciate the work that goes in to getting the data that I just shared. Before my New York Times reporter, Jeanne Pinder is nailing it with the company that she founded, Clear Health Costs. Their work in bringing transparency to the healthcare marketplace by telling people simply what stuff costs is amazing. She has been called a benevolent genius for good reason.

Bobbi Rebell:
Listened to the end of the episode. It's not that long. Take notes or listen again, or go to the show notes at bobbirebell.com for a transcript. And by the way all the episodes are there. Use the search bar in the top right corner to get more info about our guests, or more info about the content of any of the episodes. But first, listen to this one. Here is Clear Health Costs founder and CEO, Jeanne Pinder. Jeanne Pinder, I'm so excited you're here with us. I've been trying to get you on the show for quite a while, but you're a busy lady. You are the founder and CEO of Clear Health Costs, and you are here to basically give us the lowdown on how we can be better financial grownups when it comes to what we pay for our healthcare. Tell us first about Clear Health Costs, and how it came about and what it does.

Jeanne Pinder:
Yeah. Thanks for inviting me. We're a New York City journalism company, no longer startup, bringing transparency to healthcare by telling people what stuff costs. We do this not only on our home site, but also in partnership with other news organizations in long running consumer friendly investigations. We're partnering now with CBS national news and WNYC public radio, and Gothamist here in New York, telling people what stuff costs.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do we even know where to begin with controlling our healthcare costs, because obviously, we often don't have that much choice when it comes to insurance, and we all feel like we're overpaying for insurance, and then we still do pay for this stuff.

Jeanne Pinder:
Right. Yeah, so we recommend that people just, whenever it's feasible, ask what stuff is going to cost you. We know that not everything is shoppable. Like we wouldn't expect you to shop your emergency up, inducted me or your cancer treatment, but if you think about it, somewhere around 80% of our healthcare system interactions are shoppable, where are you going to get that sore throat looked at, where are you going to get that MRI. Do you have choice in scheduling your surgery? So once you've ascertain that it is shoppable in some sense, you can start out by asking simple questions. Ask the insurance company if applicable and the hospital or doctor, how much will this cost me on my insurance?

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Meaning what's the net cost to you?

Jeanne Pinder:
Yes, and what's the cash price? Quite often they'll say, "Well, we don't know or we can't tell you," but our view is that if we make that behavior a normal behavior if everybody's asking. And increasingly, we hear that people are able, doctors, hospitals, labs, clinics are able to come up with a number.

Bobbi Rebell:
And then how do you even know where to go to start comparing? Because sometimes to go to get a second opinion, I would think you maybe have to go get a second appointment with another doctor, which is not only money but also time. Should you be going to second appointments just for the cost of it? How does that actually work in practice?

Jeanne Pinder:
Yeah, we usually suggest something simple like an MRI. You can call three separate providers, and ask them those questions. How much will that cost me on my insurance? What's your cash price? Very important, ask for the cash price.

Bobbi Rebell:
Can you explain that?

Jeanne Pinder:
Yeah. So we're hearing increasingly that people are finding if they put away their insurance card and pay cash. They can get a better rate. It doesn't necessarily fall against your deductible. Although, you should be able to take something like that from your HSA if you have one. But increasingly, we're hearing that people who are choosing to put away their insurance carrier didn't pay cash, do better. Not in every case.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the thinking behind that? Because my gut instinct, which is clearly wrong, is that it's better to have insurance, right?

Jeanne Pinder:
Well, you have to ask every time. All bets are off. There are no rules. Everything we thought we knew about healthcare, we don't really know that anymore. So for example, we all grew up thinking that our insurance premiums gave us access to the lowest price. That is no longer true necessarily in every case.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you even know?

Jeanne Pinder:
In most cases, making three phone calls to ask the price, it might take you half an hour. It might take you an hour in advance of a procedure that you'd be surprised what you find out. Yes, in fact, we've heard that a simple blood test could be $500 one place in $7 another place. And if you haven't met your deductible, it really makes a difference. A simple MRI could be $300 one place and 6,000 in another, a few blocks away in the same city.

Bobbi Rebell:
So explain why there's such a cost differential? Does one person pay higher rent? Is one place subsidized by the government, one isn't? Why such a big differential?

Jeanne Pinder:
Well, the biggest reason why is that there is no transparency in healthcare. So people aren't used to publishing prices, and people aren't used to asking for prices. A few rules of thumb. We generally think that any procedure in a hospital is going to be much more expensive. So let's say that lab test, if you get it at LabCorp on cash can be dramatically cheaper than if you get it in a hospital lab.

Bobbi Rebell:
With that, can you negotiate? Let's say for some reason you want to have it at the hospital, can you tell the hospital, "Well, if I go to a lab it's going to be less." Can you match that price? Is that something that people do yet?

Jeanne Pinder:
Yes. People are doing that increasingly. I did it myself actually. I needed an MRI for a member of my family. The orthopedist in question gave us a list of three radiology providers that he uses. And because I know how to do this, so I called the first one and said, "I'm a cash customer. I'm not using my insurance. What's your price for the MRI, the particular code number?" And she said, "$900." I called the second one and had the same conversation. She said, "$600." And then the first one called me back and said, "If you can be here at seven o'clock tonight, it'll be 450." Right. So it's like surge pricing on Uber. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Jeannie's reacting to seeing my face. I have a look of surprise for our listeners that obviously can't see me. I was like, "You got to be kidding." Oh my gosh. It's like, are they going to have Black Friday sales one day? I don't know.

Jeanne Pinder:
It is. You never.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you can definitely negotiate. And is it the thing where you can say, "I'm willing to come in last minute and fill an empty slot." Because they're trying to manage their business. That's crazy.

Jeanne Pinder:
And you can say anything that you feel comfortable with. Not everybody is. Well, like for example, my friend Cindy, she was going to a doctor, and she had to get slightly gross. She had to get wax removed from her ear. So she went in and the first thing they said at the billing office was, "Give us your credit card." And she said, "How much is it going to cost?" And they said, "We don't know." And she said, "Well then, why should I give you my credit card?" And she left.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that.

Jeanne Pinder:
Well, not everybody wants to do that. And again, we don't expect you to behave like that when you're on the gurney waiting to have your appendix removed. But increasingly, people are asking because people are getting these terrifying bills, making decisions not to go to the doctor because they get a terrifying bill.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what is some of the language that people could use when you want to negotiate beyond saying, "Well, your competitor offers this price." Can you make a hardship argument, especially if you have insurance but then the insurance isn't going to cover it that well? What are the kinds of techniques that are most successful in negotiating a healthcare bill both before and after you get the bill?

Jeanne Pinder:
Right. Generally, we say just those simple questions, how much is this going to cost me on my insurance? What's the cash price? Yes, I'm shopping around. We don't hear a lot of people who are having a lot of success they're saying, "Well, your competitor up the streets charging 6,000 and we'd rather have it for 4,000." But we do hear a lot of people who are asking that question very specifically, and asking it of several providers because quite often the providers do know what their competitors are charging and they do want your business.

Bobbi Rebell:
We'll talk a little bit about that because I think people don't always understand that there's the other side to this, that they also in some cases are not necessarily getting rich off of us. They have their own business issues going on.

Jeanne Pinder:
Right. And one of the issues that they do have going on is that there are people who are not paying their co-insurance and their deductibles. There's a huge conversation in healthcare finance these days about people who are just not paying. So as a reaction to that, we think these cash prices are coming to the fore. Not every time, not every place, but quite often.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's talk about prescriptions. What can people do to lower their prescription costs? Because we were joking before we started taping that I have a prescription that would be very, very expensive, but my doctor gave me this kind of coupon that goes directly to the manufacturer, and that made it only $25, and it's a monthly thing, which is great, but what if you didn't get that coupon? How would you even know what you don't know what to ask for?

Jeanne Pinder:
Yeah. So we say ask that same question at the pharmacy. How much is this going to cost me on my insurance and what's your cash price? You can also go online to goodrx.com and get an idea of what the prices are going to be there. They have coupons that the issue. In general, we hear a lot of people who are saying that they are finding that their copay, like they might have a $35 copay for a common medication, but they can buy it on cash for $4. It's crazy.

Bobbi Rebell:
That makes no sense though.

Jeanne Pinder:
It makes no sense. Right. Again, you think that your insurance policy gives you access to a lower price. That's no longer true.

Bobbi Rebell:
What tips do you have for getting the right amount of money back from your insurance provider? Because I find, how do you know if your doctor even coded it correctly? Are there certain ways you can research that yourself, and make sure when they submitted it's submitted in the best possible way for you? Because I find, a lot of times they're not necessarily paying attention.

Jeanne Pinder:
I think you're right about that. We generally suggest, and again, I'm not saying that this is right because they feel like when people are not healthy, they're not at their best. They would rather not be arguing over nickels and dimes, but we do recommend that people ask on the front end, how much is this going to cost me, and then scrutinize the bill on the backend, like is this what they said they were going to do, and does everything look kosher here? We have a little handbook on how to argue bills on our website.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. We'll leave a link in the show notes. Make sure to send that to us.

Jeanne Pinder:
Okay.

Bobbi Rebell:
But in short, go ahead. How do you argue the bills?

Jeanne Pinder:
Yeah, so I have argued many a bill over the years.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm not surprised. And probably very successfully.

Jeanne Pinder:
Well, sometimes yes and sometimes no, but you should document everything. Do it in writing. Don't do it on the phone because doing it on the phone, you're not going to have any record of stuff. I have sent stacks and stacks of copies to CEOs of hospitals and of insurance companies complaining about my treatment. I can get a little bit enthusiastic about arguing bills, but it's worked out for me in many cases. And I think if everybody was reading their bills and challenging them, I think we would be able to reduce the amount of shenanigans that goes on in hospital and doctor billing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you think there's a lot of... we just calling it shenanigans? I would call it fraud over-billing.

Jeanne Pinder:
Well, In some places I think it is fraud. In some places that shenanigans. In some places it's just so complicated. The doctor submits one code and the insurance company says, "Well, we don't code it that way. We code it another way." The sum total is that the patient gets stuck in the middle.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are the things we can control it? So for example, I noticed that one doctor, they have multiple labs. They can send a test out to, not all the labs, maybe on your insurance. Can you tell the doctor, "Please send it to this lab, not the other lab."

Jeanne Pinder:
Yes. And try to in every case. Again, it's really hard to place that burden on you as the patient. They should be doing it automatically, but you can remind them. And also when you're doing this prep work, I always recommend that people take notes, take names and take numbers. You can ask for something in writing, for example, a hospital estimate in writing, which will then make it easier for you to argue on the back end should you want to. For many of us, we're a little bit squeamish about talking about body parts and money because it feels like, "Ooh, well, maybe my doctor's going to think that I'm like a cheapskate or something." But I really think it's time for this to come out into the open, and for all of us to get comfortable with the fact that asking that question is going to make us, and our doctors frankly feel a lot better.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you are a tremendous resource. One more question. We're talking in general about medical procedures that are not necessarily elective. Do you have any negotiability when it comes to things that are elective?

Jeanne Pinder:
The elective procedures that we price on in our database are pretty much already negotiable. They're basically a cash marketplace. So we do pricing on Botox, LASIK and teeth whitening, and they really are pretty much an open marketplace.

Bobbi Rebell:
Fascinating. So they're probably more negotiable because they're really running purely as a business where you can truly take your business somewhere else?

Jeanne Pinder:
Yeah, they'll have specials, special on the LASIK, special on teeth whitening.

Bobbi Rebell:
All good to note. Jeanne, where can people find out more about you and Clear Health Costs?

Jeanne Pinder:
Yeah, clearhealthcosts.com. You can also find us on cbsnews.com/healthcosts, wnyc.org/healthcosts, and gothamist.com/healthcosts.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tremendous resources. We are so grateful to you. Thank you so much and happy holidays.

Jeanne Pinder:
Thank you Bobbi. Thank you. Happy holidays to you too.

Bobbi Rebell:
That was awesome. Big things to Jeanne Pinder. Be sure to check out Clear Health Costs as Jeanne said in all the places, including their partnership with WNYC public radio and Gothamist. That's wnyc.org/health costs. You can also check out their partnership with CBS national news at cbsnews.com/health costs. This is one of those episodes you definitely want to go to the show notes. You could do that at bobbirebell.com/podcast/jeannepinder.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also just search for her name, J-E-A-N-N-E P-I-N-D-E-R in the search box. That also goes for all the episodes of Financial Grownup. You can get show notes and resources for all of them. And if you like this podcast, please be sure to subscribe and leave a review. And if you have other ways to save on healthcare DM, so that I can share it with the whole community. On Instagram, I am @bobbirebell1, and on Twitter @bobbirebell. And of course, check out Money With Friends. My other podcast with my friend Joe Saul-Sehy. You may know him from Stacking Benjamins. Be sure to follow Money With Friends also. On all the socials, it's at moneyfriendspod. Thank you everyone. Infinite things to Clear Health Costs, Jeanne Pinder for helping us all get our healthcare costs under control. Like the financial grownups, we are. By everyone. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media Production.