Posts tagged Real Estate
How to invest in real estate without owning property with Scott Carson
How to invest in real estate without owning property with Scott Carson
 

Investing in notes can be profitable but it is complicated. Bobbi gets the basics and the red flags from WeCloseNotes.com’s Scott Carson

 
 
 
 

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Grownup friends, a big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups, Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart.

Bobbi Rebell:
This book was not easy to rate because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest. It was a lot of work, but I really love doing it, and I'm really happy with how it came out.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. I truly appreciate it, and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Scott Carson:
You have many people that walk away, especially in a recession. You have people that just bought a house, got laid off, unfortunately just left. Well, if they've got a really low interest rate on their mortgage, it's a great way for you to take over property without ever having to qualify for financing.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, Certified Financial Planner Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because you know what, grownup life is really hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you guys watching the stock market and getting a little nervous again? Maybe thinking it's time to actually look to diversify and look into new places to invest your money, places where it may not be as liquid, it may be a little bit more risky, but you at least have, as I mentioned, a little more diversification, and maybe can see some upside to the economic troubles that some people are calling a recession. This episode is going to be very interesting for you. We are going to be talking about an area of investing that I frankly don't know that much about. It is a way to invest in real estate without actually taking possession of and buying real estate. In other words, you aren't buying the property to live in or to renovate the property, to renovate and then flip it or be a landlord, an active landlord for years, managing it hands on the ground or paying a company to manage it. You're just using financial resources, money, to get some of the benefits of real estate as an investor.

Bobbi Rebell:
I have a fantastic guest to explain to us how it works, and this is important, the red flags. Because while there is clearly opportunity, you have to know what you are doing. This is not for amateurs, but it is for anyone willing to put the time into it who has the right risk profile and is interested in diversification. It's really interesting, I was fascinated. My guest is Scott Carson. He is an entrepreneur, his company is called We Close Notes, and he also has a podcast called The Note Closers. And no, this is not the kind of note that you wrote on a post-it note. I was fascinated by it all. It's all going to be explained to you, it's going to make a lot of sense, and then you can decide if it's right for you. We're going to have some resources where you can get more information if you do want to proceed. But this is really interesting stuff that I wanted to know about, and I really wanted you guys all to know about, just as an option and potentially an opportunity for profit. Here is We Close Notes' Scott Carson.

Bobbi Rebell:
Scott Carson, you're a Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Scott Carson:
I'm honored to be here today to share our knowledge and just give to your audience after all those financial crimes that were listed today.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I recruited you for this episode because the stock market has been a little bit scary, and I want people to know that there are other ways to invest, especially ways that you can still have some liquidity in different amounts, but the stock market is not the only game in town, and it doesn't necessarily mean you have to buy a property. I will explain more about that going forward, or something where it's not liquid. There are a lot of interesting ways that people can get more bang for their buck in terms of investing. And also, maybe a little bit more with interest rates rising, that creates a different opportunity in some ways. So, your company is called We Close Notes. Before we get into the opportunities, I want you to just explain where you're coming from, and your perspective and your experience.

Scott Carson:
I've been an active real estate investor for over 20 years. Previously a financial advisor with a little company called Smith Barney and Chase Bank back in the day. Got into mortgages and originating back in 2004, but literally have been buying notes, performing and non-performing notes, for the last 15 plus years, since 2008. When the last recession hit, I went from the origination side of the business to the de-origination side, and started buying mortgages direct from banks and hedge funds where people were not paying a mortgage. We make our money by buying that debt at a discount and then working it out with the homeowners to try to keep them in their houses with some sort of plan, without taking the property back. That's our preferred strategy actually, just to come back on track, back paying on time. It turns into a really good return for us, does good for the community, does good for the borrowers. As I like to say, we're making America great again, one defaulted mortgage at a time.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're going to go through five ways to invest in real estate without owning property in just a minute. But I want to take a step back and have you explain, first of all, what do you mean by origination and what exactly is a note?

Scott Carson:
Good question. Origination, we'll start first with that, is where you're creating mortgages or you're getting somebody approved for a mortgage. When you go to buy a house, you usually need to get approved for a mortgage. What that means is that a mortgage broker will evaluate your financials to see what you qualify for. They are going out originating mortgages to Chase or Wells Fargo, or any of the 5,000 plus loan companies out there, basically originating mortgages that way. A note, basically, it's an IOU. If you have credit cards, student loan debt, car payment, mortgage, owe your brother Bubba five bucks, you're in the mortgage space, it's an IOU basically. That's a note space. I like to buy notes that are secured by real estate, which is basically mortgages. I primarily buy mortgages in the first lien or senior lien position. There are seconds or juniors and other things, lines of credit people may have against their houses and stuff like that. But I buy first lien mortgages backed by residential for real estate. Does that make sense?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, and that is not the same as a treasury note, correct?

Scott Carson:
That's correct.

Bobbi Rebell:
We think of 10 year notes as treasury notes. This is not what we're talking about here.

Scott Carson:
Exactly. We're talking about the mortgages on the actual properties.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's get into our five ways to invest in real estate without owning property. The first way is wholesaling. Tell us about that.

Scott Carson:
Wholesaling is the process of finding a deal, finding a property or a note, finding something at below value, getting it under contract, and then flipping the paper or flipping that contract to another investor for commission. Let's say I'm driving around my neighborhood, which is a common way for investor. They see them ugly property, something that needs some work. They knock on the door, they know the owner and the owner just wants to get away from the property. They're like, "I can't rehab it, I can't fix it. I just want to be done with it." So they may put it under contract. Let's say the house, maybe with some work is worth 150, but they get under contract for 60 because that's what all the homeowner wants, and they're able to say, "Hey Scott, do you want to buy this property from me? I'll flip you the paper. I've got under contract for 60. You can buy my contract for 70 grand, and I'll make 10 grand as the wholesaler."

Bobbi Rebell:
So you're not necessarily putting your own money out there.

Scott Carson:
Exactly. You're basically just getting it under contract and flipping the contract to another end buyer who's willing to pay you commission. We've gotten wholesale fees from anywhere from $500 all the way up to $100 grand before.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Tricky to find though, right?

Scott Carson:
It's a lot of work. It's a lot of either direct mail or driving neighborhoods, knocking on doors. You've got to be really good and be a bird dog for a lot of people out there buying. You can make great money like that, but I don't really consider that truly investing because you're just flipping the paper. You're constantly working. There's not really anything coming in long term from it, but it's a great way. Most investors in the real estate side, that's how they get started. Wholesaling and figuring out what's going in their markets, and then either flipping paper or flipping properties that way.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you know a market well, it is something that can make sense for you because you have a sense of what things are really worth versus what people in a certain situation are willing to take to get out of a precarious situation. Okay, number two, buying a note, your specialty.

Scott Carson:
This is my specialty. Most people think when you say buying the note, that means you're buying the property. No, you're buying the debt and becoming, technically, the bank. Now, the beautiful thing about this is you control the real estate without actually owning it. What I mean by when I buy note, I literally buy the mortgage from a bank. I'm usually buying it a big discount, 50, 60 cents on the dollar. But the borrower still owes that money. They still owe what they owe. So let's use some simple math. Let's say they borrow, they bought a house, they get laid off of work, the house was worth a hundred, they financed a hundred. Well, they haven't paid in six months to a year, and then maybe they owe 110 now with back payments. Well, they haven't paid in a year. That bank will often be looking to sell that mortgage, that non-performing note, off to investors like me.

Scott Carson:
I could come in, offer the bank, let's just say 50 grand on a hundred thousand dollar house. Well, I buy the note, I now become the bank, the lender, and I make my money by then negotiating with the homeowner. Say, "Listen, Mr. Homeowner. I know you're behind, you had COVID or laid off of work. You owe 110. I know that previous bank wanted you pay the full year of back payments or six months, you can't afford it. What can you afford? Let's work out a payment plan and get you back on track." So if their interest rate, let's say was 5%, and I bought that note at 50 cents of the dollar, if I get them back on track, that's technically a 10% annualized return to me, which is a pretty good ROI to me.

Scott Carson:
If they keep paying for 12 months to me, then I could technically turn around and sell that note to Wall Street or other investors at 85, 90, 95 cents on the dollar. And if I paid 50 and sell it at 85, I just made a 35% profit on it, plus cashflow along the way. So I like that aspect. I don't want to own real estate. I've been an investor, but buying the note allows for you to control their real estate, work with the homeowners to keep them in their properties if they can. If they don't pay, then we go the route to foreclose because we have the same rights as the bank does.

Bobbi Rebell:
The next one is a little bit of a gray area, to be fair, because we did say not owning property. So it's taking over property, subject to current financing. Explain that, this is sort of a blend.

Scott Carson:
It is a bit of a blend. You have many people out there who live in a property and then can either a) no longer afford to sell their property because they can't afford to pay the commissions, they owe more than the property's worth and they just want to walk away from it. We've dealt with subject to deals like this, what we call subject to deals, where we will step in, take over the mortgage payments of the property, subject to the existing financing and either a) pay the homeowners to walk, make up their arrearages or whatever they're behind on, pay up the taxes. People will walk away from assets all the time. And why this is an advantage to the borrower versus them just walking away is it keeps the foreclosure off their record, which will ruin their credit for seven years.

Scott Carson:
We set these subject to deals basically about three years. It gives us time to make payments on behalf of the bar. What we will do is either put a render in the property that's paying above what the full mortgage payment is, or we'll owner finance property to somebody else in a wraparound mortgage. You should always have an attorney to help you out with this title companies, and professionals out there on the paperwork to make sure everything is disclosed properly, and making sure you're not violating state rules or laws or anything like that.

Scott Carson:
But you have many people that walk away, especially in a recession. You have people that just bought a house, got laid, unfortunately just left. Well, if they've got a really low interest rate on their mortgage, it's a great way for you to take over property without ever having to qualify for financing. One of the great things people don't know is most mortgages were completely assumable prior to 1985, and then VA loans were basically the only ones that were assumable. But me being the bank, if somebody wants to take over the loan on a note, I'm always willing to do that as long as I get paid. And most banks won't care. They do have what's called a due-on-sale clause, and if you're doing a subject to deal and transferring, it looks like a sale. But most of the time the banks aren't going to force it as long as they start getting paid on time. A bank would rather hold a note that's now re performing, versus going through all the problem with foreclose and then take the property back, especially if it's in a state that has a long foreclosure timeframe.

Bobbi Rebell:
So interesting, especially because, by some definitions, we are in a recession right now, so that is an opportunity for somebody. Number four is become a private lender. Tricky, you really have to have capital. How realistic is that?

Scott Carson:
It's actually very realistic. If you've got a 401k from a previous company of some sort, and you move it into a self-directed IRA of some sort, you can often lend money out to other investors at above average rate returns. 6, 7, 8, 10, 12% to investors who are looking to buy real estate or need money to flip. A great way to find people that are looking for these type of investor loans is attending your local real estate investor clubs or networks. There's a whole secondary market of investors that are lending money out, 25, 50 grand, on fix and flips and other things out there.

Scott Carson:
A lot of people think if I live in California, I need 1 million to buy a property. Well, no, there's plenty of people that have bought property, but they needed a little bit of help with repairs to fix up the property, to sell it off on the secondary market. We've actually helped a lot of our students get started as private investors if they've got 25, 50 grand, just to get the ball rolling.

Bobbi Rebell:
The advantage to that is that if you can pair up with somebody who knows what they're doing in terms of flipping a house or something, the other person might have the expertise and you have the financing. So not everyone has both. You may not have the expertise and know where to begin with that. They may know what they're doing and maybe they just need more money to get the properties that they intend to flip, and they have the market expertise to do it. The fifth one is taking over payments and then owner financing to another buyer investor. That sounds complicated, a little bit intimidating.

Scott Carson:
It seems like it, but it isn't. But we talked previously about taking over property subject to. I know a lot of people don't want to be into the three Ts, toilets, tenants and trash outs. They don't want to do that. But if you take over property subject to, and it's got a low interest rate, let's just say 3, 4%... Many people are looking to buy a property that can't qualify traditionally and would be happy to pay a higher interest rate of 8 or 9%, that can bring a sizeable down payment down and have you carry the terms of that mortgage for two years, three years while they work to get their credit back on track, and then they can refinance after a period of time. As always, you always want to have an attorney help with your paperwork and close at a title company, and create the paperwork so it's Dodd-Frank compliant, and there's plenty of RMLOS out there that can help you create that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm going to throw a bonus question at you and we have not discussed this in advance, but can you talk to us, another way to invest in real estate without owning property hands-on is REIT. Can you talk about what a REIT is, and the opportunities there?

Scott Carson:
Yeah. A real estate investments trust is a company that has a variety of real estate investments in there. It's a fund and they jump through the hoops of the SEC. Most of the time, it's usually a lot of larger commercial properties in a REIT in a lot of cases, and you can buy a share, and invest in that REIT as a small part of the overall portfolio. And they will usually be paying back an annual return on investment. Often, sometimes, maybe get a little share of the profit on the back end too, as well. But usually, it's just like an investment stock, but in individual stocks of a company, you're buying a share of one commercial property or a portfolio of properties as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Finally, in this rising rate environment, because we do expect the fed to continue to raise rates, and that in turn impacting the housing market, talk about how that affects this whole idea of investing this, whole strategy of investing.

Scott Carson:
Well, you've got to make sure that your money's not losing value every day. With inflation, stuff like that, our buying power is reducing dramatically in a lot of cases, and you want to be buying something that's got fixed assets to be returning on a solid return to you. That's why cash flowing real estate, buying a rental property that's cash flowing, or investing in a note, because notes do really, really well, and maintain the ROIs as far as continuing to pay. It's a lot of opportunity for you. You got to take advantage of it and be putting money into things like that as part of your portfolio.

Scott Carson:
As always, you want to make sure it's balanced, make sure you're investing in something that you have knowledge in or learning to learn knowledge, and always seek your professionals out there. The biggest mistake you can make as an investor is invested something you have no clue about, or you just listened to a podcast. Go listen to the professionals, talk to people who are doing it. There's plenty of professionals around you to do that, to help you guide your way and hold your hand along the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. But you can learn a lot from a podcast, including yours, which has over a million downloads. So quickly tell us about that, and where people can be in touch with you.

Scott Carson:
Yeah. We have the number one podcast in the note investment industry called the Note Closers Show. Like I said, 700 plus episodes. It's a mixture of me teaching specific nuggets about note investing, and then also bringing on great guest experts. Bobbi will be on here shortly, vendors, and other investors in the industry to help you learn firsthand experience from what their journey has been. Their tips or tools, and strategies to help them maximize, and turn problem properties into profitable solution. You can always find the episodes on any of your podcast platforms, but you can also check out the website, weclosenotes.com that's weclosenotes.com. If you're listing, make sure, if you listen to this podcast, make sure you hit that subscribe button and leave Bobbi a five star review. We as podcasters love to hear from our audience, so do Bobbi a favor and hit subscribe and leave a message.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Scott Carson:
Hey, thanks for having to me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
There is something I don't talk about publicly that I have decided to start sharing, even though it can be a bit embarrassing. I get digital overload and it stresses me out, for good reason. Because when you have so much junk on your computer, because you're not as organized as you should be, because you get caught up and all the things that you have to do, if you don't deal with it, all that stuff on your computer starts to really slow things down and can become a total drag on your productivity. For me, there is nothing worse than finally motivating to get stuff done, only to be derailed by a sluggish computer that is just not cooperating. A little while ago, I decided I was going to stop, just kind of hoping that things would get better and I was going to deal with it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I downloaded something called Clean my Mac. It's from a company called MacPaw. I was skeptical, but I took a deep breath and I tried it. Long story short, it totally worked. I loved how I could see it work through my files with clear and easy to understand graphics. I could see what was messing things up. And Clean My Mac would ask me for my okay before deleting files, so that something I did need to keep didn't go bye-bye. That was one of my biggest fears.

Bobbi Rebell:
I recently reached out to the company and they are offering 10% off to my Financial Grownup listeners who want to also get Clean My Mac. To get that 10% off Clean My Mac, you do need to go to my link. It is BobbiRebell.com/CleanMyMac, B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L.C-O-M/CleanMyMac. And that is all one word.

Bobbi Rebell:
I promise you, you'll be so happy. I want you guys to be in touch with me, let me know how it goes. You deserve to lower the stress of data overload. Trust me, so worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay my friends, that was a lot, but really good stuff. I encourage everyone to go to my website. Just my name, BobbiRebell.com, B-O-B-B-I R-E-B-E-L-L, where a transcript is available, so you can review all that information if you are interested. Of course, there's a summary via the show notes as well, right there for you. Absolutely feel free to be in touch with Scott through his website at weclosenotes.com. His podcast, The Note Closer, sets over a million downloads, so that is another great resource for a ton of information to get you started. I do want to remind everyone, you need to know what you are doing if you want to do this kind of investing. But lots of interesting stuff there, and potentially lots of opportunity.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to do more episodes on investing and opportunities for you, so please be in touch and let me know the topics you want me to cover. What do you want to learn more about? You can be in touch by DMing me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1, that's number one, or on Twitter @BobbiRebell. I am also including money tips and investing information in my newsletter, so you can sign up for that right on my website. Super easy, just my name, BobbiRebell.com. Scott and I, by the way, connected through a conference where I spoke, and I would love to get out there and help more people with their money and with investing, and just knowing more about parenting kids and teaching kids about money. So please be in touch through my website, just BobbiRebell.com/speaking if you would like me to come and speak to your group. Of course, big thanks to Scott Carson of WeCloseNotes.com for his help in helping us all be Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a Financial Grownup. The podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast, is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media, @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, and @BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being Financial Grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
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Money Tips to Avoid Financial Chaos with Micro-Empires’ Jennifer Grimson
Money Tips to Avoid Financial Chaos with Micro-Empires’ Jennifer Grimson

Our grownup lives sometimes take a turn for the worst at the time we least expect it. Jennifer Grimson experienced it all from filing for bankruptcy twice, becoming AirBNB pro and making some tough decisions to downsize her family's lifestyle in order to become a millionaire. 

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Jennifer’s Money Story + Money Tips To Handle Financial Chaos

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, yes I have. So have many people. So my story is that I lost everything twice. So no job, no car, no place to live, two kids to raise, and chapter 13 bankruptcy. And that happened to me twice, once at the age of 29 and once at the age of 41, and the second time that it happened, I realized that I needed to do something to rebuild in a way that would protect me. So for me, that meant building small pockets of wealth, finger quotes, and security. And that's what the show that I have, which is called Micro Empires, is about, is just basically creating these small pockets so that if anything is taken away, you aren't left completely empty handed and at a loss of what to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those two bankruptcies, different stories each time, give us just a little sense of what caused those, because a lot of people go, well, how did that happen? I mean, the first time you had a one and a three-year-old. What happened?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, the bankruptcies were are actually caused by the same thing, but how it happened to me was that I was in a very contentious divorce. So my ex-husband sued me twenty-five times in 10 years, and I amassed over $500,000 in attorney's fees. And I can go into great detail about that, but I don't think we have time for it, but in my case, it wasn't that I purchased a home and went in upside down, or I bought expensive cars, or had terrible spending habits. It's that I was running from somebody who was punishing me financially through the court system, which is another entire story altogether.

Jennifer Grimson:
But chapter 13 was a way for me to escape the lawsuits, and the first one helped me preserve the home that I lived in. So it was probably the first lesson I got in there are tools out there for you to use to help you financially. Now, chapter 13 bankruptcy is no fun. You pay your creditors back. Your credit is ruined for 10 years. You have to live on cash. It is not a great existence, but it did release me from lawsuits. So I did that not only once, but twice. But on top of everything, the second time I found myself without anything, no car, no job, no place to live. What I had done then was to turn my financial wellbeing over to someone else, namely the person that I was in a relationship with, so that when that relationship ended, I was really left with nothing.

Jennifer Grimson:
And as shameful as I felt that was, I decided a year ago, when I decided to start the show, that I would share the story because I knew I wasn't the only one. I think women do it more than men. I think it happens a lot, and there's a lot of shame in it when really the shame should be honestly on the other person, who's kind of not being fair about that. But at any rate, it taught me a hard, hard lesson and I really didn't get the message until I was about 41, that no matter what I did, I was going to have to rebuild in a different way than I had done in the past.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now it is a decade after that second bankruptcy. Just to catch people up, you became a real estate investor.

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Jennifer Grimson:
Yes, I did. So from 41 years old, the following three years it took me to correct my credit, which is a journey in and of itself. And then the first thing I did was to purchase a home, which was a miracle. And I walk through how I made that happen. And then through house hacking and short term rental, in four years, I created $1.4 million in income producing investments.

Jennifer Grimson:
And there's a reason they're called income producing investments. I didn't have $1.4 million. I had mortgages, I had overhead, I had all of the things, but what I had done was created, I actually had three properties that were Airbnb. And those properties all had their own incomes, their own empires, on top of a corporate job. So that way, I had at least four areas of income, and then I created other areas of income, as well. So I kept creating these little pockets of income.

Jennifer Grimson:
And then that's morphed. I've moved into investing into multi-family and other things. But again, by using tools, tools that I had at the ready. So I didn't realize, when I rebuilt the second time, I did it with a W-2 really and some grit. So other than that, I mean, I didn't have a great investment that I made a ton of money off of or anything like that. I simply just used the tools at hand, which are part of why I want to do the show, to share what's available to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know you don't do Airbnb investing right now, but just quickly, give us some insider secrets and tips for getting started with Airbnb. What did you learn there?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, I learned a lot. So first and foremost, I started doing it in 2014 in Nashville, Tennessee, where no one was doing it at the time. And that was a great time to do it. So my advice to anybody is anytime you see an opportunity, and maybe it's something new and edgy, and you're willing to take the risk, and risk, you know, I talk about risk a lot, it has to be a risk that you're comfortable with, I say, go for it. I needed to do everything in micro steps. Also part of why I do the things the way that I do. I'm not a huge risk taker.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I had my home. I started renting it out on the weekends through Airbnb and quickly realized that this could be a real way for me to not only cover my mortgage and expenses, but a way for me to create an income. My best advice for people, if you're getting involved in Airbnb and you're just starting out and you're just a normal person, like you're not a person who has hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank or millions to lose, I say, go find an emerging market and buy a really, really affordable home. Your money in real estate is made on the purchase. So if you purchase high, you're not really probably going to make a lot of money off it, no matter what your plan is with it. You've got to find a way to purchase low.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I purchased in evolving neighborhoods. I took a chance in that. And I went ahead and lived in the properties, which allowed me to get in there for very little money. I furnished them myself. I managed them myself, until such time that they were up and running and I was able to hire other people to do that. Those would be my basic tips on Airbnb. I could talk about that forever, but those are sort of the basics.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hands-on first, then hand it off. Okay, so that was a nice little bonus tangent for everybody. But the real reason I asked you to come on was to tell us your tips on how to handle financial chaos, which of course has to start with actually recognizing financial chaos. Like, there was a cereal incident in your car, with your children.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. So financial chaos is a really sad, scary place to live and to be. And I lived in it for many, many years, and I didn't know what I was living in. I like to describe it to people, I have this metaphor, like imagine you're living in a home, there's no lights in the home, and it's a hoarder. You're living in a home with a hoarder, and there's all this stuff piled up, but you don't know it's there, but you feel like something's wrong. You're not really sure what it is.

Jennifer Grimson:
And one day, someone turns the light switch on and you see all of the chaos, all of the mayhem, and that person who's creating it, whether it's you or potentially your partner, runs over and shuts that light off, and says, "Oh, never mind, never mind." You can't unsee it. So in my case, I lived in a situation where I was, to simplify it, I was a saver and my ex-husband was a spender. He had a lot of emotional attachment to money and how it made him feel. And we were living in absolute dire straights, things like he would get angry if I bought the generic brand cereal. We were so broke, I was bouncing checks to buy groceries. I would go to three different grocery stores to find the best deals.

Jennifer Grimson:
I took my children shopping one night, like I did normally, so I had them with me in the evening, little babies in diapers, in and out of the car. We'd go to three different grocery stores to save the money. And then on the way home, we're in California on Highway 101, I pull over on the side of the road, I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos. You're risking your entire life to keep someone happy about something that has to really do with money and your relationship with money. So that's financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
And when I talk to people about their money, and it's very, very personal. People will tell you about their sex lives before they'll tell you about their money, which is kind of crazy, but they'll explain things to me that they've become accustomed to because they've been living in it for so long. But that is sort of the truth of it, and recognizing it, as well. My advice is to look at, do you have a shared approach to money? Do you and your partner have a shared approach? Do you find it really difficult to go without the nice to haves? Or does your partner? Do you feel sick whenever you have to talk about money? And then examining what wealthy might mean to you, also a good tool in figuring out where you are on the money spectrum.

Bobbi Rebell:
Once we've identified that we are in financial chaos, which probably more of us are in than we realize, give us some tips to calm that financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, if you're in a partnership with someone who is creating the chaos, and it's not yourself, because sometimes it could be yourself, and there's a little test that I offer in the episode that I did this week, but probably the first thing is to sit down and have a conversation with that partner. Chances are, that may not go well if you've never had a conversation before, and there are therapists and books and things that can help you with that, but it's really taking a hard look at your own relationship with money. I happen to call it money culture, and I have a free ebook, as well, that walks you through like where are you with money and how do you feel and why do you do the things that you do?

Jennifer-Grimson-Twitter-Quote-#3-Micro-Empires-Podcast.png

Jennifer Grimson:
Hopefully if you can sit down and have a conversation with a partner and that person is able to come to grips with their own relationship with money, perhaps saying, "Yeah, I do these things because it makes me feel loved," or, "I didn't get this as a child," or, "It makes me feel like a better person when I have expensive things," you can start to work through that and come up with a plan together about how money is tied directly to identity and security. And so examining that and looking at it as a whole and saying is our identity more important than our security? Do we have to have a Mercedes-Benz outside and a really expensive house that we can't afford? Or is it better for us to have a little bit less and feel safe? That's what it is for me, anyway. I have to feel safe when it comes to money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a lot of us feel that way. So that's if a partner's involved. What if it's on you? What if there is financial chaos in your life and you just need to do something about it? What are your tips?

Jennifer Grimson:
So one of the things I say is try to go 30 days without purchasing anything above food and shelter, and see if you can do it, see how it makes you feel, write it down, those sorts of things. I think the root of it, if you're in it and you're causing it, is that you've got to figure out why you're doing it. So for me, my money lessons, my money culture, has been based in fear because I've been in these really extreme situations twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also sometimes give people some very tough love that they do not want to hear about big life decisions about their lifestyle overall.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I say a lot that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This is interesting to me. Met with a woman recently and she said, "I'm really struggling. I've been out of work." She's somebody I knew years ago in the corporate world. She'd been out of work for a long time. She was struggling to find a new corporate job, and let's face it, age-ism is a real thing. And there isn't much I can do to help her with that, other than networking. But I said, "Well, let's take a look at what you've got." And she's got this amazing home in a phenomenal location here in Nashville. She's got an outbuilding, an apartment. She already has an apartment.

Jennifer Grimson:
I said, "Well, you could turn that into an Airbnb." This is just an example. And obviously with all the experience I have, I was even willing to help her with the marketing and tell her what works best and all the tips. And she was like, "Well, I don't want people at my house." And okay, you don't want people at your house. That's okay. But you're choosing your identity, I think, over your security. I didn't want people at my house, either, Bobbi. I was tired of people using my bathrooms and sleeping in my beds, but I cared more about my security.

Jennifer Grimson:
So maybe you don't want somebody living in your house. That's fine. Maybe you don't want to give up the expensive purses. That's fine. But are you going to be able to give up the travel, or are you going to be able to give up eating out, or are you going to be able to give up, or are you willing to live basically on the fringe of complete financial ruin day in and day out?

Jennifer Grimson:
So for me, the second time I lost everything, my kids were in private school. I was living in this beautiful neighborhood. My first thought was, how do I keep them in private school? How do I get an apartment in this neighborhood? How do I keep this lifestyle that I've been creating for them? And the truth was, I wasn't going to keep any of that. I needed to move out. I needed to live with my sister, on her generosity, for four months. I needed to look at different areas for them to go to school.

Jennifer Grimson:
And so grappling with the fact that you may need to give up what you've become accustomed to, to achieve freedom, is just a really important topic that we go into over and over again. Clinging to what you had may not be your path to freedom.



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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Jennifer Grimson:
We're in California on Highway 101. I pull over on the side of the road. I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there, pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. As you heard, there was a point when Micro Empires podcast host Jennifer Grimson's life was truly in financial chaos. She can talk about it now, but literally pulling over to put generic cereal into brand name boxes so your husband won't know you saved money, that's really bananas, right? Jennifer talks candidly about her decisions to file for bankruptcy twice and the consequences of that tough decision. But she also gives some priceless tips on how we can first recognize when our financial lives are in chaos, because very often we are in the dark.

Bobbi Rebell:
And while it's not the primary focus of our interview, I did manage to sneak in some questions about maximizing your Airbnb properties and what makes a good investment. And you'll also hear why that's so relevant to Jennifer's story. Here is Jennifer Grimson. Jennifer Grimson, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jennifer Grimson:
Thank you so much for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am looking forward to speaking with you about your tips to handle financial chaos. That's why I brought you on, because it was a recent episode of your podcast, Micro Empires. But first, I want to hear a little bit more about your backstory because you have been through it all.

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, yes I have. So have many people. So my story is that I lost everything twice. So no job, no car, no place to live, two kids to raise, and chapter 13 bankruptcy. And that happened to me twice, once at the age of 29 and once at the age of 41, and the second time that it happened, I realized that I needed to do something to rebuild in a way that would protect me. So for me, that meant building small pockets of wealth, finger quotes, and security. And that's what the show that I have, which is called Micro Empires, is about, is just basically creating these small pockets so that if anything is taken away, you aren't left completely empty handed and at a loss of what to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those two bankruptcies, different stories each time, give us just a little sense of what caused those, because a lot of people go, well, how did that happen? I mean, the first time you had a one and a three-year-old. What happened?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, the bankruptcies were are actually caused by the same thing, but how it happened to me was that I was in a very contentious divorce. So my ex-husband sued me twenty-five times in 10 years, and I amassed over $500,000 in attorney's fees. And I can go into great detail about that, but I don't think we have time for it, but in my case, it wasn't that I purchased a home and went in upside down, or I bought expensive cars, or had terrible spending habits. It's that I was running from somebody who was punishing me financially through the court system, which is another entire story altogether.

Jennifer Grimson:
But chapter 13 was a way for me to escape the lawsuits, and the first one helped me preserve the home that I lived in. So it was probably the first lesson I got in there are tools out there for you to use to help you financially. Now, chapter 13 bankruptcy is no fun. You pay your creditors back. Your credit is ruined for 10 years. You have to live on cash. It is not a great existence, but it did release me from lawsuits. So I did that not only once, but twice. But on top of everything, the second time I found myself without anything, no car, no job, no place to live. What I had done then was to turn my financial wellbeing over to someone else, namely the person that I was in a relationship with, so that when that relationship ended, I was really left with nothing.

Jennifer Grimson:
And as shameful as I felt that was, I decided a year ago, when I decided to start the show, that I would share the story because I knew I wasn't the only one. I think women do it more than men. I think it happens a lot, and there's a lot of shame in it when really the shame should be honestly on the other person, who's kind of not being fair about that. But at any rate, it taught me a hard, hard lesson and I really didn't get the message until I was about 41, that no matter what I did, I was going to have to rebuild in a different way than I had done in the past.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now it is a decade after that second bankruptcy. Just to catch people up, you became a real estate investor.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yes, I did. So from 41 years old, the following three years it took me to correct my credit, which is a journey in and of itself. And then the first thing I did was to purchase a home, which was a miracle. And I walk through how I made that happen. And then through house hacking and short term rental, in four years, I created $1.4 million in income producing investments.

Jennifer Grimson:
And there's a reason they're called income producing investments. I didn't have $1.4 million. I had mortgages, I had overhead, I had all of the things, but what I had done was created, I actually had three properties that were Airbnb. And those properties all had their own incomes, their own empires, on top of a corporate job. So that way, I had at least four areas of income, and then I created other areas of income, as well. So I kept creating these little pockets of income.

Jennifer Grimson:
And then that's morphed. I've moved into investing into multi-family and other things. But again, by using tools, tools that I had at the ready. So I didn't realize, when I rebuilt the second time, I did it with a W-2 really and some grit. So other than that, I mean, I didn't have a great investment that I made a ton of money off of or anything like that. I simply just used the tools at hand, which are part of why I want to do the show, to share what's available to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know you don't do Airbnb investing right now, but just quickly, give us some insider secrets and tips for getting started with Airbnb. What did you learn there?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, I learned a lot. So first and foremost, I started doing it in 2014 in Nashville, Tennessee, where no one was doing it at the time. And that was a great time to do it. So my advice to anybody is anytime you see an opportunity, and maybe it's something new and edgy, and you're willing to take the risk, and risk, you know, I talk about risk a lot, it has to be a risk that you're comfortable with, I say, go for it. I needed to do everything in micro steps. Also part of why I do the things the way that I do. I'm not a huge risk taker.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I had my home. I started renting it out on the weekends through Airbnb and quickly realized that this could be a real way for me to not only cover my mortgage and expenses, but a way for me to create an income. My best advice for people, if you're getting involved in Airbnb and you're just starting out and you're just a normal person, like you're not a person who has hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank or millions to lose, I say, go find an emerging market and buy a really, really affordable home. Your money in real estate is made on the purchase. So if you purchase high, you're not really probably going to make a lot of money off it, no matter what your plan is with it. You've got to find a way to purchase low.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I purchased in evolving neighborhoods. I took a chance in that. And I went ahead and lived in the properties, which allowed me to get in there for very little money. I furnished them myself. I managed them myself, until such time that they were up and running and I was able to hire other people to do that. Those would be my basic tips on Airbnb. I could talk about that forever, but those are sort of the basics.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hands-on first, then hand it off. Okay, so that was a nice little bonus tangent for everybody. But the real reason I asked you to come on was to tell us your tips on how to handle financial chaos, which of course has to start with actually recognizing financial chaos. Like, there was a cereal incident in your car, with your children.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. So financial chaos is a really sad, scary place to live and to be. And I lived in it for many, many years, and I didn't know what I was living in. I like to describe it to people, I have this metaphor, like imagine you're living in a home, there's no lights in the home, and it's a hoarder. You're living in a home with a hoarder, and there's all this stuff piled up, but you don't know it's there, but you feel like something's wrong. You're not really sure what it is.

Jennifer Grimson:
And one day, someone turns the light switch on and you see all of the chaos, all of the mayhem, and that person who's creating it, whether it's you or potentially your partner, runs over and shuts that light off, and says, "Oh, never mind, never mind." You can't unsee it. So in my case, I lived in a situation where I was, to simplify it, I was a saver and my ex-husband was a spender. He had a lot of emotional attachment to money and how it made him feel. And we were living in absolute dire straights, things like he would get angry if I bought the generic brand cereal. We were so broke, I was bouncing checks to buy groceries. I would go to three different grocery stores to find the best deals.

Jennifer Grimson:
I took my children shopping one night, like I did normally, so I had them with me in the evening, little babies in diapers, in and out of the car. We'd go to three different grocery stores to save the money. And then on the way home, we're in California on Highway 101, I pull over on the side of the road, I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos. You're risking your entire life to keep someone happy about something that has to really do with money and your relationship with money. So that's financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
And when I talk to people about their money, and it's very, very personal. People will tell you about their sex lives before they'll tell you about their money, which is kind of crazy, but they'll explain things to me that they've become accustomed to because they've been living in it for so long. But that is sort of the truth of it, and recognizing it, as well. My advice is to look at, do you have a shared approach to money? Do you and your partner have a shared approach? Do you find it really difficult to go without the nice to haves? Or does your partner? Do you feel sick whenever you have to talk about money? And then examining what wealthy might mean to you, also a good tool in figuring out where you are on the money spectrum.

Bobbi Rebell:
Once we've identified that we are in financial chaos, which probably more of us are in than we realize, give us some tips to calm that financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, if you're in a partnership with someone who is creating the chaos, and it's not yourself, because sometimes it could be yourself, and there's a little test that I offer in the episode that I did this week, but probably the first thing is to sit down and have a conversation with that partner. Chances are, that may not go well if you've never had a conversation before, and there are therapists and books and things that can help you with that, but it's really taking a hard look at your own relationship with money. I happen to call it money culture, and I have a free ebook, as well, that walks you through like where are you with money and how do you feel and why do you do the things that you do?

Jennifer Grimson:
Hopefully if you can sit down and have a conversation with a partner and that person is able to come to grips with their own relationship with money, perhaps saying, "Yeah, I do these things because it makes me feel loved," or, "I didn't get this as a child," or, "It makes me feel like a better person when I have expensive things," you can start to work through that and come up with a plan together about how money is tied directly to identity and security. And so examining that and looking at it as a whole and saying is our identity more important than our security? Do we have to have a Mercedes-Benz outside and a really expensive house that we can't afford? Or is it better for us to have a little bit less and feel safe? That's what it is for me, anyway. I have to feel safe when it comes to money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a lot of us feel that way. So that's if a partner's involved. What if it's on you? What if there is financial chaos in your life and you just need to do something about it? What are your tips?

Jennifer Grimson:
So one of the things I say is try to go 30 days without purchasing anything above food and shelter, and see if you can do it, see how it makes you feel, write it down, those sorts of things. I think the root of it, if you're in it and you're causing it, is that you've got to figure out why you're doing it. So for me, my money lessons, my money culture, has been based in fear because I've been in these really extreme situations twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also sometimes give people some very tough love that they do not want to hear about big life decisions about their lifestyle overall.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I say a lot that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This is interesting to me. Met with a woman recently and she said, "I'm really struggling. I've been out of work." She's somebody I knew years ago in the corporate world. She'd been out of work for a long time. She was struggling to find a new corporate job, and let's face it, age-ism is a real thing. And there isn't much I can do to help her with that, other than networking. But I said, "Well, let's take a look at what you've got." And she's got this amazing home in a phenomenal location here in Nashville. She's got an outbuilding, an apartment. She already has an apartment.

Jennifer Grimson:
I said, "Well, you could turn that into an Airbnb." This is just an example. And obviously with all the experience I have, I was even willing to help her with the marketing and tell her what works best and all the tips. And she was like, "Well, I don't want people at my house." And okay, you don't want people at your house. That's okay. But you're choosing your identity, I think, over your security. I didn't want people at my house, either, Bobbi. I was tired of people using my bathrooms and sleeping in my beds, but I cared more about my security.

Jennifer Grimson:
So maybe you don't want somebody living in your house. That's fine. Maybe you don't want to give up the expensive purses. That's fine. But are you going to be able to give up the travel, or are you going to be able to give up eating out, or are you going to be able to give up, or are you willing to live basically on the fringe of complete financial ruin day in and day out?

Jennifer Grimson:
So for me, the second time I lost everything, my kids were in private school. I was living in this beautiful neighborhood. My first thought was, how do I keep them in private school? How do I get an apartment in this neighborhood? How do I keep this lifestyle that I've been creating for them? And the truth was, I wasn't going to keep any of that. I needed to move out. I needed to live with my sister, on her generosity, for four months. I needed to look at different areas for them to go to school.

Jennifer Grimson:
And so grappling with the fact that you may need to give up what you've become accustomed to, to achieve freedom, is just a really important topic that we go into over and over again. Clinging to what you had may not be your path to freedom.

Bobbi Rebell:
This has been so wonderful. Tell us where people can follow up with you. Of course, everybody needs to subscribe to the Micro Empires podcast.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah, the podcast, of course. My website is micro-empires.com. I'm on all the socials, either by Micro Empires or Jennifer Grimson. I have a free book. It's 28 pages. You can download it at my website. And I'm also creating a course called You Don't Have to Be Wealthy to Build Wealth. So I hope that will be really helpful for people. It's really for folks that are just kind of starting out, because I get asked the same questions over and over again. You know, I may not be the only person who's gone through this, but for a lot of folks who I hear, it's too late to start over, et cetera, et cetera, I think I'm a good example of somebody who went through it more than once, and later in life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Jennifer Grimson:
Thank you, Bobbi. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, let's review some of Jennifer's tips from the interview. First of all, look, bankruptcy is a serious decision, but it can be a tool to help in the most dire financial situations. So think about it carefully, but know that it might be right in some extreme situations. Don't turn your financial wellbeing over to someone else completely, even if that is someone that you are in a relationship with and you love and you believe will last forever. And I hope it does. But sometimes when a relationship ends, you can end up like Jennifer, with nothing. Just think about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jennifer set up her real estate as income producing investments. She had three Airbnbs with their own incomes that were separate, in addition to her W-2 job. So think about that when you are working on different side hustles or other ventures.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you find yourself in financial chaos and it involves a partner, make sure you sit down and try to have a conversation about it. Think about having them come to grips with their relationship with money and what is driving their decisions that are impacting both of you. Come up with a plan together. If you and you alone are the cause of the financial chaos, well, Jennifer suggests trying, for example, to go 30 days with just the most basic expenses. We're talking food and shelter, and maybe write down any time you stray. See how it makes you feel.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, figure out why you are doing it. Is it about identity, security, validation from others? Figure out what is your money culture based on? For Jennifer, it's based on fear of having to start over financially yet again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, I'd love to hear what you think of this episode. Have you ever found yourself in financial chaos? I would love to hear your reaction to this episode and maybe your stories. DM me on Instagram at @BobbiRebell1, and for previews of upcoming episodes and news that is relevant to our grownup lives, please subscribe to my newsletter. You can do so on my website, bobbirebell.com. Big thanks to Micro Empire's podcast host Jennifer Grimson for her fantastic advice and for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media, and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself, as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we've got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Financial Grownup, Financial Independence, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanReal Estate, Airbnb, Rentals, Micro Empires, Jennifer Grimson, Bankruptcy
Money tips from Million Dollar Listing New York’s Kirsten Jordan
Money tips from Million Dollar Listing New York’s Kirsten Jordan
Kirsten-Jordan-Main-Instagram-Real-Estate-Million-Dollar-Listing-New-York.png

The newest star of the hit Bravo series shares specific tips on where to spend your money to get maximum impact in everything from real estate to your career wardrobe. Plus: how they filmed a reality tv series during a pandemic. 

Kirsten’s Money Tips:

Kirsten Jordan:
What I learned the most over the last year and a half is that it's very easy as a working mom to just bulk up on childcare and not bulk up on help anywhere else. And just think that you need to get more childcare so that you can work longer hours and work harder and just be further stretched and be crankier and angrier. And just you have that be your MO, which we've all been there. What I realized as soon as I actually had somebody helping me in the office and actually helping me with the backend of my business, that's when I realized that I don't need to be the one touching everything and doing everything.

Kirsten Jordan:
And why did I wait 12 years to get help at work. That made me be able to leverage myself into the areas that I really enjoy the most and that bring me the most money per hour. But also it made me a lot happier at home because I wasn't focusing on the stuff I didn't like doing. And I think this is a very benign, so elementary basic thing for people who are not entrepreneurs but I think it's very easy when you're an entrepreneur to be like, "I'm going to save money and not hire extra help. I'm just going to think about my bottom line," when it's very hard to scale, virtually impossible to scale, if you're not ready to embrace having some actual help at work as well.

Kirsten-Jordan-Twitter-#1-Real-Estate-Million-Dollar-Listing-New-York .png

Bobbi Rebell:
That makes so much sense. And people forget, in addition to childcare, you could get someone and it sounds almost luxurious, but to get a personal assistant to do all those errands and maybe then you have less childcare and spend that time with your kids, right.

Kirsten Jordan:
Right. And I have three kids. So for me, it's always the constant struggle. It's trying to figure out how to not only spend more time with my kids but be present when I'm with them, which is one of my main objectives in every area of my life. It is making sure that I am present in whatever I'm doing. So, if it's a podcast, if it's being with my kids, if it's being with clients, if it's meeting a new prospect, it is you get my undivided attention. Then when I'm done with it, I walk away and I'm done with it. The only way to do that, in my opinion, at least at my age, with the amount of kids I have and the amount of stuff I have going on is to get as much stuff off my plate that is not the highest and best use of my time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us a real estate tip that everyone can use.

Kirsten Jordan:
Throughout the country, we are in a sellers market. In order to be able to get any sort of opportunity, pretty much it means being flexible and knowing how much you can spend and how high you can bid. And making sure you evaluate the taxes on the property, your mortgage and what that's going to look like so you really understand what your monthly number is going to be. Because if you find something you really like, it's probably going to be going over the asking price or go to closed bids very, very quickly. So, the key is being ultra prepared when you go to see a property and understanding what you can spend, what that looks like on a monthly basis, speaking to a mortgage broker and being ready to take the advice of the real estate agent as to where to come in.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of young people, instead of starting their jobs in person have started their jobs at home in sweats behind a Zoom camera. And now they're going to go out into the world. Share some tips on how people can present their best selves as we reemerge into the office spaces. Assuming we do, which I think we will, at least to some degree.

Kirsten-Jordan-Instagram-#2-Real-Estate-Million-Dollar-Listing-New-York.png

Kirsten Jordan:
I completely agree with you. I've been in person with people since June 22nd. So, I have continued to hold myself together and dress up, which I even did during quarantine. I would say it breaks down to three tips. The number one tip is get a uniform for yourself in the sense that you have an idea of what your look is and how you can rotate that. I think people call that a capsule wardrobe. Whatever it is, for me, it's colored blazers. I wear a lot of different colored blazers every day with different kinds of looks. Whether it's a skirt or it's a pair of pants but that's my staple and it makes it really easy for me get out of the house in the morning and feel put together.

Kirsten Jordan:
The second thing is making sure that you have a routine around making sure that you're ready or have an idea of what you're going to wear the next day. It's super cliche but this idea of laying out your clothes like the way that I do with my kids, I think that that saves a lot of time and it really guarantees that you're going to have a nice look every day because spending a ton of time, preparing yourself in the morning is a waste of time because it can be really simplified. And if you stick with looking at the weather the night before, just pulling out an outfit that you plan on wearing and being ready to pull yourself together to get out the door, I think that's super important. And it cuts back on the time that you can spend with this idea of, or the burden of looking really nice every day.

Kirsten Jordan:
And the third thing is making sure that you are dressing for your audience. In New York as a real estate agent, dressing for downtown is different then dressing for uptown. Without over-analyzing it, I do adjust what I'm wearing based on what I have going that day.

Kirsten Jordan:
So, it is really important to value that and remember that people that spend time with you, they can't help but want to have some sort of aspiration about hanging out with you. And that's something I always have believed. I have clients who say to me, "I just love the fact that every single time you show up, you look nice. That's really important because I feel like you'll represent my property better because you're so put together." And you know what? That is something that I've gotten used to doing every single day since I was 10 years old. And it has gotten me really, really far. You just can't discount it.

Kirsten-Jordan-Twitter-#3-Real-Estate-Million-Dollar-Listing-New-York .png

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
Buying the perfect gift to celebrate life's big milestones can be tough. I have the solution with grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees and these seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts celebrating adulting on grownupgear.com. And yeah, of course, they're all at affordable prices. If you can't decide, we now have digital gift certificates. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast and we truly appreciate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I have clients who say to me, "I just love the fact that every single time you show up, you look nice. That's really important because I feel like you'll represent my property better because you're so put together." And you know what? That is something that I've gotten used to doing every single day since I was 10 years old and it has gotten me really, really far. You just can't discount it.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome everyone to, Money Tips for Financial Grownups. This week's guest said what some people might not like to hear but is so true in grownup land. How you present absolutely matters. It can make all the difference, frankly, when it comes to how successful you are in life. That is just one of the no BS money tips that Kirsten Jordan, the new breakout star of Million Dollar Listing New York on Bravo shares in our interview.

Bobbi Rebell:
A reminder, we have deconstructed the podcast just a bit. So, the conversation is more free flowing and you get maximum money tips. Listen for the sound throughout the episode and you'll get what I mean. All right, let's talk about Kirsten Jordan. Her day job is selling extremely expensive real estate at Douglas Element in Manhattan. But just before the pandemic, she joined the cast of Bravo's Million Dollar Listing New York. We talk about what it was like to film during the pandemic and her secrets to getting all those lucrative real estate deals. So many of you loved our episode with her co-star Ryan Serhant, you will adore Kirsten, AKA, KJ as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here is Kirsten Jordan.

Bobbi Rebell:
Kirsten Jordan, you're a financial grownup. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.

Kirsten Jordan:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Million Dollar Listing New York, just debuted. How exciting is this after filming in a pandemic all this time in secret?

Kirsten Jordan:
It has been a roller coaster because I started filming in the beginning of 2020. So, it was January of 2020. And here we are in May of 2021 and it's finally aired. We weren't allowed to film. So, everything was home footage. Then when we started up again at the end of July, there was major protocols in place to even start doing that. So, it was really just a very jarring stop. And then it was, you know, we're going to take a bunch of footage because I think we all were taking footage of our homes in general. And there's no secret about that.

Kirsten Jordan:
All of us were taking footage just because it was fun and interesting to record history. And then of course that was something that potentially could have been used. And then it got started again and it just hit the ground running when the real estate market wasn't really up and running fully yet in the sense that we were allowed to show but we weren't really... People weren't back and ready yet. They were really just not focused on real estate yet. They were just like, "Wow, I can't believe things are open again. Is it really safe to come see an apartment?"

Bobbi Rebell:
It's almost like this is really going to be a behind the scenes documentary of a two layer thing. It's what was happening in real estate but also what happens on a reality TV show when a pandemic hits.

Kirsten Jordan:
Right. And we weren't the only show that tried to figure out ways to be able to get footage during COVID. A lot of those shows have closed sets or able to shoot during a very specific time period where clearly, because ours is truly reality of following us around and seeing what properties we're pitching and we're selling, it's just much, much more complicated.

Bobbi Rebell:
The thing I love about you is you have already, before the show, you have a huge presence giving very no BS tips about the real estate market. We're going to get to those in just a minute but I want to hear what tips you picked up from your co-stars on the show when filming Million Dollar Listing New York.

Kirsten Jordan:
What you learned from the other cast members is they have been doing it longer than I have and they're very successful. I would say that I've learned how to be able to take it with a grain of salt and be able to have tension with them because I think we all are really competitive. And so, for me in the beginning, the hardest part was the fact that we all are going to be competing with each other because we do overlap anyway. That's just how the nature of the business is. This is a competitive industry. And so, I have a lot of tension with Tyler, a lot of tension with Frederick and you see that on the show. And I think for me, that was the first time I had something like this, where it's normal to have this in the industry but then this idea of like, "Oh, wow. And then everybody's watching." It took me a little bit to get used to.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, tell me what tips do you have for our grownup listeners?

Kirsten Jordan:
What I learned the most over the last year and a half is that it's very easy as a working mom to just bulk up on childcare and not bulk up on help anywhere else. And just think that you need to get more childcare so that you can work longer hours and work harder and just be further stretched and be crankier and angrier. And just you have that be your MO, which we've all been there. What I realized as soon as I actually had somebody helping me in the office and actually helping me with the backend of my business, that's when I realized that I don't need to be the one touching everything and doing everything.

Kirsten Jordan:
And why did I wait 12 years to get help at work. That made me be able to leverage myself into the areas that I really enjoy the most and that bring me the most money per hour. But also it made me a lot happier at home because I wasn't focusing on the stuff I didn't like doing. And I think this is a very benign, so elementary basic thing for people who are not entrepreneurs but I think it's very easy when you're an entrepreneur to be like, "I'm going to save money and not hire extra help. I'm just going to think about my bottom line," when it's very hard to scale, virtually impossible to scale, if you're not ready to embrace having some actual help at work as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
That makes so much sense. And people forget, in addition to childcare, you could get someone and it sounds almost luxurious, but to get a personal assistant to do all those errands and maybe then you have less childcare and spend that time with your kids, right.

Kirsten Jordan:
Right. And I have three kids. So for me, it's always the constant struggle. It's trying to figure out how to not only spend more time with my kids but be present when I'm with them, which is one of my main objectives in every area of my life. It is making sure that I am present in whatever I'm doing. So, if it's a podcast, if it's being with my kids, if it's being with clients, if it's meeting a new prospect, it is you get my undivided attention. Then when I'm done with it, I walk away and I'm done with it. The only way to do that, in my opinion, at least at my age, with the amount of kids I have and the amount of stuff I have going on is to get as much stuff off my plate that is not the highest and best use of my time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us a real estate tip that everyone can use.

Kirsten Jordan:
Throughout the country, we are in a sellers market. In order to be able to get any sort of opportunity, pretty much it means being flexible and knowing how much you can spend and how high you can bid. And making sure you evaluate the taxes on the property, your mortgage and what that's going to look like so you really understand what your monthly number is going to be. Because if you find something you really like, it's probably going to be going over the asking price or go to closed bids very, very quickly. So, the key is being ultra prepared when you go to see a property and understanding what you can spend, what that looks like on a monthly basis, speaking to a mortgage broker and being ready to take the advice of the real estate agent as to where to come in.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of young people, instead of starting their jobs in person have started their jobs at home in sweats behind a Zoom camera. And now they're going to go out into the world. Share some tips on how people can present their best selves as we reemerge into the office spaces. Assuming we do, which I think we will, at least to some degree.

Kirsten Jordan:
I completely agree with you. I've been in person with people since June 22nd. So, I have continued to hold myself together and dress up, which I even did during quarantine. I would say it breaks down to three tips. The number one tip is get a uniform for yourself in the sense that you have an idea of what your look is and how you can rotate that. I think people call that a capsule wardrobe. Whatever it is, for me, it's colored blazers. I wear a lot of different colored blazers every day with different kinds of looks. Whether it's a skirt or it's a pair of pants but that's my staple and it makes it really easy for me get out of the house in the morning and feel put together.

Kirsten Jordan:
The second thing is making sure that you have a routine around making sure that you're ready or have an idea of what you're going to wear the next day. It's super cliche but this idea of laying out your clothes like the way that I do with my kids, I think that that saves a lot of time and it really guarantees that you're going to have a nice look every day because spending a ton of time, preparing yourself in the morning is a waste of time because it can be really simplified. And if you stick with looking at the weather the night before, just pulling out an outfit that you plan on wearing and being ready to pull yourself together to get out the door, I think that's super important. And it cuts back on the time that you can spend with this idea of, or the burden of looking really nice every day.

Kirsten Jordan:
And the third thing is making sure that you are dressing for your audience. In New York as a real estate agent, dressing for downtown is different then dressing for uptown. Without over-analyzing it, I do adjust what I'm wearing based on what I have going that day.

Kirsten Jordan:
So, it is really important to value that and remember that people that spend time with you, they can't help but want to have some sort of aspiration about hanging out with you. And that's something I always have believed. I have clients who say to me, "I just love the fact that every single time you show up, you look nice. That's really important because I feel like you'll represent my property better because you're so put together." And you know what? That is something that I've gotten used to doing every single day since I was 10 years old. And it has gotten me really, really far. You just can't discount it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm definitely on the KJ bandwagon that we start dressing up a little bit more.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Million Dollar Listing New York is now out on Bravo. So, everyone needs to be watching that. Where can people find out more about you, KJ?

Kirsten Jordan:
I have a website. It's called www.KirstenJordan.com. There you can find all of my press. You can also find all of the videos that I've created, all of my blogs and then you can click through. And then there's a way to get to my real estate website, of course, which is the www.KirstenJordanTeam.com that has all of my real estate listings. And then it also has all the historical sales that I've done. So, you can do a deep dive there as well. And then of course you can find me on Instagram @Kirsten.Jordan.

Kirsten Jordan:
If you look on Bravo's website, which is www.bravotv.com, there's a ton of stuff there too that shows what we're going to be doing on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the show is amazing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Kirsten Jordan:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys enjoyed listening to that interview as much as I enjoy talking to Kirsten. Let's review a little bit of what we learned from her. When I asked her what she learned from her co-stars, Kirsten was honest. They are her peers but they're also the competition. And that doesn't mean you don't like them. It doesn't mean you don't get along with them but it is something to think about when you collaborate in your career. Sometimes there's only one winner. Make sure it's you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another tip. Protect your time. That means thinking not just about outsourcing things like childcare if you're a parent, but maybe other things like your personal to-do list. So, you get to spend time doing what you want. That might be with your kids if you're a parent or if you're a parent, maybe that's not spending time with your kids and doing something else. Whatever it may be, you can free up your time. Think about how you allocate your resources and really make sure they reflect your priorities.

Bobbi Rebell:
When it comes to real estate, run the numbers before you fall in love with a property and listen to the professionals that you hire. You are paying them for their expertise. Get your money's worth.

Bobbi Rebell:
Kirsten also had great general advice about being successful in your career or in your business. First of all, she talks about coming up with a consistent look. Get your outfit ready for the next day. So, you don't waste time in the morning. It will really lower your stress levels. Dress for your audience. People hire people that they think have their act together. How you present yourself is often the first and biggest indicator, if that is true. Like it or not. Just saying.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so excited to watch the Million Dollar Listing New York season unfilled. Kirsten is a total star and I am so grateful that she took the time to be part of this podcast and share with all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Make sure you follow her on all the socials and definitely check out the show. And if you are an M D L N Y super fan like me, DM me and tell me what you think of this season. I want to hear from you guys, seriously. I'm a little obsessed. I am @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram. Also, please support the show by checking out and hopefully making some purchases on www.grownupgear.com for all the gifts you need this spring. Including graduations, bridal showers, engagement parties and of course, M D L N Y viewing parties because really guys, what is more grown-up than being able to watch as much high quality, reality TV as you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
And in fact, next week, we're going to have the stars of another one of my favorite reality TV shows on. The ladies from the Netflix hit series, Marriage or Mortgage, Nichole Holmes and Sarah Miller. I have a lot to say about this show and the ladies really dish with some fantastic insider moments and money tips.

Bobbi Rebell:
Until next week. Big thanks to Million Dollar Listing New York's, Kirsten Jordan for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
The financial grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Saven is our Talent Coordinator and Content Creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes. You can get for every show, right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell:
Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to www.BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our grownup gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Reality TV stars, Money, Productivity, Role Models, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanKirsten Jordan, Money Tips, Real Estate, Million Dollar Listing New York
Financial Grownup Guide - Top New Money Books for Grownups Right Now (October)
Financial Grownup Guide - Top New Money Books for Grownups Right Now (October)
October Money Books Instagram

Bobbi reveals her favorite new money related books, and how to decide if they are right for you. This month’s picks include The House Hacking Strategy: How to use your Home to Achieve Financial Freedom by Craig Curelop, Your Turn: Careers, Kids and Comebacks by Jennifer Gefsky and Stacey Delo, Retirement Reality Check: How to Spend Your Money and Still Leave an Amazing Legacy by Josh Jalinski and ZenBender: A Decade-Long Enthusiastic Quest to Fix Everything (That was Never Broken) by Stephanie Krikorian.

Book #1: The House Hacking Strategy: How to use your Home to Achieve Financial Freedom by Craig Curelop.

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-The book has a ton of very specific case studies- including that of the author.

-The under the radar red flags for choosing tenants. Things you would not think about.

-How to successfully invest in areas that are NOT distressed.

Who is this book for? 

Everyone interested in actually house hacking but also those of us who are just curious how it all works. I was extremely skeptical, and honestly, some people over leverage in my opinion. But there is a real formula and method to success and Craig does a great job explaining it. This makes GREAT cocktail party chatter as they say.. I thought it was well worth the time I invested, even though I do not plan on investing in real estate using the house hacking strategy.


Book #2: Your Turn: Careers, Kids and Comebacks by Jennifer Gefsky and Stacey Delo. 

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

-If we are being honest- it spoke to me, and to most of my friends. This is a book about how to keep that career going- even if you hit pause.

-While there is a positive tone, it is not the usual rah rah blah blah blah you go girl stuff. This is realistic and because of that both empowers and challenges the reader to take ownership of the fact that making it happen has to come from them

-The book doesn’t just speak to the parents wanting to make a career comeback- it also speaks to the employers who want these great resources back at work. 

Who is this book for? 

The authors have targeted working moms- so that’s clear. This is also a book that men should read- and not just dads who may face similar challenges coming back into full time work. I mean the men who worked with the women earlier in their careers and will get re-introduced to them when they return to their jobs.


Book #3: Josh Jalinksi’s Retirement Reality Check: How to Spend your Money and Still Leave an Amazing Legacy. 

What I like about this:

-Josh talks about tools that aren’t always super mainstream these days- including annuities and whole life. Not for everyone- but they are for some people and we all should have a sense of what they are so we can make the decision that is right for us.

-Josh strikes a nice balance between focusing on living the life we want, and also wanting to leave something for those who come after us. Passing wealth on to family members is something many people also care about that isn’t often addressed in books aimed at one’s own retirement. 

-Josh’s gregarious personality comes through making this tough topic a lot more pleasant to learn about

Who is this book right for:

Anyone who wants to retire comfortably, and wants a roadmap that wants a fresh perspective - including some controversial options. 

Bonus Book: Stephanie Krikorian’s Zenbender: A Decade-Long Enthusiastic Quest to Fix Everything (That was Never Broken).

What I loved about this book:

-So much of the time we think we are the only ones experiencing but in fact many others like Stephanie are having similar life experiences- from insecurity, to weight and career battles, to questions about where you are in life, relationships and of course, adulting. 

-This book may be non fiction but it is a page turner as if it were the fiction book you just need to tell someone about asap so they can be in on it too. 

-Stephanie has amazing money tips and life insights- from just using one pump of shampoo to save money- to the admission that yes, in her words “I’m built to spa”. Stephanie knows who she is, and she will help you figure out- or admit- you you are too! 

Episode Links:

Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

Craig Curelop’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of The House Hacking Strategy: How to use your Home to Achieve Financial Freedom

Jennifer Gefsky and Stacey Delo’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Your Turn: Careers, Kids and Comebacks

Josh Jalinksi’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Retirement Reality Check: How to Spend your Money and Still Leave an Amazing Legacy

Stephanie Krikorian’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Zenbender: A Decade-Long Enthusiastic Quest to Fix Everything (That was Never Broken)

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Investing, Money, Health + FitnessBobbi Rebell KaufmanBooks, House Hacking, investing, Real Estate, ZenBender, Craig Curelop, Your Turn, Financial Freedom, Jennifer Gefsky, Jennifer Gefsky and Stacey Delo, Stacey Delo, Retirement Reality Check, Josh Jalinski
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 pitfalls first-time home buyers must avoid with Realtor.com’s Judy Dutton
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 pitfalls first-time home buyers must avoid with Realtor.com’s Judy Dutton
FGG - Judy Dutton Instagram

The top 5 pitfalls for first-time homeowners to avoid

  • Pitfall 1: Not checking your credit score

  • Pitfall 2: Not figuring out how much home you can afford

  • Pitfall 3: Not getting pre-approved for a mortgage

  • Pitfall 4: Assuming you need a 20% down payment

  • Pitfall 5: Just going with the first real estate agent someone recommends

Episode Links:

Follow Judy!

Follow Realtor.com!

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Financial Grownup Guides, Authors, Advice, Financial Grownup, Personal Finance, Role Models, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell Kaufmanhome buying, Homeowner, First Time Home Buyers, credit score, Mortgage, Down Payment, Real Estate