Posts in Entrepreneurs
How to invest in real estate without owning property with Scott Carson
How to invest in real estate without owning property with Scott Carson
 

Investing in notes can be profitable but it is complicated. Bobbi gets the basics and the red flags from WeCloseNotes.com’s Scott Carson

 
 
 
 

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Grownup friends, a big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups, Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart.

Bobbi Rebell:
This book was not easy to rate because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest. It was a lot of work, but I really love doing it, and I'm really happy with how it came out.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. I truly appreciate it, and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Scott Carson:
You have many people that walk away, especially in a recession. You have people that just bought a house, got laid off, unfortunately just left. Well, if they've got a really low interest rate on their mortgage, it's a great way for you to take over property without ever having to qualify for financing.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, Certified Financial Planner Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because you know what, grownup life is really hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you guys watching the stock market and getting a little nervous again? Maybe thinking it's time to actually look to diversify and look into new places to invest your money, places where it may not be as liquid, it may be a little bit more risky, but you at least have, as I mentioned, a little more diversification, and maybe can see some upside to the economic troubles that some people are calling a recession. This episode is going to be very interesting for you. We are going to be talking about an area of investing that I frankly don't know that much about. It is a way to invest in real estate without actually taking possession of and buying real estate. In other words, you aren't buying the property to live in or to renovate the property, to renovate and then flip it or be a landlord, an active landlord for years, managing it hands on the ground or paying a company to manage it. You're just using financial resources, money, to get some of the benefits of real estate as an investor.

Bobbi Rebell:
I have a fantastic guest to explain to us how it works, and this is important, the red flags. Because while there is clearly opportunity, you have to know what you are doing. This is not for amateurs, but it is for anyone willing to put the time into it who has the right risk profile and is interested in diversification. It's really interesting, I was fascinated. My guest is Scott Carson. He is an entrepreneur, his company is called We Close Notes, and he also has a podcast called The Note Closers. And no, this is not the kind of note that you wrote on a post-it note. I was fascinated by it all. It's all going to be explained to you, it's going to make a lot of sense, and then you can decide if it's right for you. We're going to have some resources where you can get more information if you do want to proceed. But this is really interesting stuff that I wanted to know about, and I really wanted you guys all to know about, just as an option and potentially an opportunity for profit. Here is We Close Notes' Scott Carson.

Bobbi Rebell:
Scott Carson, you're a Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Scott Carson:
I'm honored to be here today to share our knowledge and just give to your audience after all those financial crimes that were listed today.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I recruited you for this episode because the stock market has been a little bit scary, and I want people to know that there are other ways to invest, especially ways that you can still have some liquidity in different amounts, but the stock market is not the only game in town, and it doesn't necessarily mean you have to buy a property. I will explain more about that going forward, or something where it's not liquid. There are a lot of interesting ways that people can get more bang for their buck in terms of investing. And also, maybe a little bit more with interest rates rising, that creates a different opportunity in some ways. So, your company is called We Close Notes. Before we get into the opportunities, I want you to just explain where you're coming from, and your perspective and your experience.

Scott Carson:
I've been an active real estate investor for over 20 years. Previously a financial advisor with a little company called Smith Barney and Chase Bank back in the day. Got into mortgages and originating back in 2004, but literally have been buying notes, performing and non-performing notes, for the last 15 plus years, since 2008. When the last recession hit, I went from the origination side of the business to the de-origination side, and started buying mortgages direct from banks and hedge funds where people were not paying a mortgage. We make our money by buying that debt at a discount and then working it out with the homeowners to try to keep them in their houses with some sort of plan, without taking the property back. That's our preferred strategy actually, just to come back on track, back paying on time. It turns into a really good return for us, does good for the community, does good for the borrowers. As I like to say, we're making America great again, one defaulted mortgage at a time.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're going to go through five ways to invest in real estate without owning property in just a minute. But I want to take a step back and have you explain, first of all, what do you mean by origination and what exactly is a note?

Scott Carson:
Good question. Origination, we'll start first with that, is where you're creating mortgages or you're getting somebody approved for a mortgage. When you go to buy a house, you usually need to get approved for a mortgage. What that means is that a mortgage broker will evaluate your financials to see what you qualify for. They are going out originating mortgages to Chase or Wells Fargo, or any of the 5,000 plus loan companies out there, basically originating mortgages that way. A note, basically, it's an IOU. If you have credit cards, student loan debt, car payment, mortgage, owe your brother Bubba five bucks, you're in the mortgage space, it's an IOU basically. That's a note space. I like to buy notes that are secured by real estate, which is basically mortgages. I primarily buy mortgages in the first lien or senior lien position. There are seconds or juniors and other things, lines of credit people may have against their houses and stuff like that. But I buy first lien mortgages backed by residential for real estate. Does that make sense?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, and that is not the same as a treasury note, correct?

Scott Carson:
That's correct.

Bobbi Rebell:
We think of 10 year notes as treasury notes. This is not what we're talking about here.

Scott Carson:
Exactly. We're talking about the mortgages on the actual properties.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's get into our five ways to invest in real estate without owning property. The first way is wholesaling. Tell us about that.

Scott Carson:
Wholesaling is the process of finding a deal, finding a property or a note, finding something at below value, getting it under contract, and then flipping the paper or flipping that contract to another investor for commission. Let's say I'm driving around my neighborhood, which is a common way for investor. They see them ugly property, something that needs some work. They knock on the door, they know the owner and the owner just wants to get away from the property. They're like, "I can't rehab it, I can't fix it. I just want to be done with it." So they may put it under contract. Let's say the house, maybe with some work is worth 150, but they get under contract for 60 because that's what all the homeowner wants, and they're able to say, "Hey Scott, do you want to buy this property from me? I'll flip you the paper. I've got under contract for 60. You can buy my contract for 70 grand, and I'll make 10 grand as the wholesaler."

Bobbi Rebell:
So you're not necessarily putting your own money out there.

Scott Carson:
Exactly. You're basically just getting it under contract and flipping the contract to another end buyer who's willing to pay you commission. We've gotten wholesale fees from anywhere from $500 all the way up to $100 grand before.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Tricky to find though, right?

Scott Carson:
It's a lot of work. It's a lot of either direct mail or driving neighborhoods, knocking on doors. You've got to be really good and be a bird dog for a lot of people out there buying. You can make great money like that, but I don't really consider that truly investing because you're just flipping the paper. You're constantly working. There's not really anything coming in long term from it, but it's a great way. Most investors in the real estate side, that's how they get started. Wholesaling and figuring out what's going in their markets, and then either flipping paper or flipping properties that way.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you know a market well, it is something that can make sense for you because you have a sense of what things are really worth versus what people in a certain situation are willing to take to get out of a precarious situation. Okay, number two, buying a note, your specialty.

Scott Carson:
This is my specialty. Most people think when you say buying the note, that means you're buying the property. No, you're buying the debt and becoming, technically, the bank. Now, the beautiful thing about this is you control the real estate without actually owning it. What I mean by when I buy note, I literally buy the mortgage from a bank. I'm usually buying it a big discount, 50, 60 cents on the dollar. But the borrower still owes that money. They still owe what they owe. So let's use some simple math. Let's say they borrow, they bought a house, they get laid off of work, the house was worth a hundred, they financed a hundred. Well, they haven't paid in six months to a year, and then maybe they owe 110 now with back payments. Well, they haven't paid in a year. That bank will often be looking to sell that mortgage, that non-performing note, off to investors like me.

Scott Carson:
I could come in, offer the bank, let's just say 50 grand on a hundred thousand dollar house. Well, I buy the note, I now become the bank, the lender, and I make my money by then negotiating with the homeowner. Say, "Listen, Mr. Homeowner. I know you're behind, you had COVID or laid off of work. You owe 110. I know that previous bank wanted you pay the full year of back payments or six months, you can't afford it. What can you afford? Let's work out a payment plan and get you back on track." So if their interest rate, let's say was 5%, and I bought that note at 50 cents of the dollar, if I get them back on track, that's technically a 10% annualized return to me, which is a pretty good ROI to me.

Scott Carson:
If they keep paying for 12 months to me, then I could technically turn around and sell that note to Wall Street or other investors at 85, 90, 95 cents on the dollar. And if I paid 50 and sell it at 85, I just made a 35% profit on it, plus cashflow along the way. So I like that aspect. I don't want to own real estate. I've been an investor, but buying the note allows for you to control their real estate, work with the homeowners to keep them in their properties if they can. If they don't pay, then we go the route to foreclose because we have the same rights as the bank does.

Bobbi Rebell:
The next one is a little bit of a gray area, to be fair, because we did say not owning property. So it's taking over property, subject to current financing. Explain that, this is sort of a blend.

Scott Carson:
It is a bit of a blend. You have many people out there who live in a property and then can either a) no longer afford to sell their property because they can't afford to pay the commissions, they owe more than the property's worth and they just want to walk away from it. We've dealt with subject to deals like this, what we call subject to deals, where we will step in, take over the mortgage payments of the property, subject to the existing financing and either a) pay the homeowners to walk, make up their arrearages or whatever they're behind on, pay up the taxes. People will walk away from assets all the time. And why this is an advantage to the borrower versus them just walking away is it keeps the foreclosure off their record, which will ruin their credit for seven years.

Scott Carson:
We set these subject to deals basically about three years. It gives us time to make payments on behalf of the bar. What we will do is either put a render in the property that's paying above what the full mortgage payment is, or we'll owner finance property to somebody else in a wraparound mortgage. You should always have an attorney to help you out with this title companies, and professionals out there on the paperwork to make sure everything is disclosed properly, and making sure you're not violating state rules or laws or anything like that.

Scott Carson:
But you have many people that walk away, especially in a recession. You have people that just bought a house, got laid, unfortunately just left. Well, if they've got a really low interest rate on their mortgage, it's a great way for you to take over property without ever having to qualify for financing. One of the great things people don't know is most mortgages were completely assumable prior to 1985, and then VA loans were basically the only ones that were assumable. But me being the bank, if somebody wants to take over the loan on a note, I'm always willing to do that as long as I get paid. And most banks won't care. They do have what's called a due-on-sale clause, and if you're doing a subject to deal and transferring, it looks like a sale. But most of the time the banks aren't going to force it as long as they start getting paid on time. A bank would rather hold a note that's now re performing, versus going through all the problem with foreclose and then take the property back, especially if it's in a state that has a long foreclosure timeframe.

Bobbi Rebell:
So interesting, especially because, by some definitions, we are in a recession right now, so that is an opportunity for somebody. Number four is become a private lender. Tricky, you really have to have capital. How realistic is that?

Scott Carson:
It's actually very realistic. If you've got a 401k from a previous company of some sort, and you move it into a self-directed IRA of some sort, you can often lend money out to other investors at above average rate returns. 6, 7, 8, 10, 12% to investors who are looking to buy real estate or need money to flip. A great way to find people that are looking for these type of investor loans is attending your local real estate investor clubs or networks. There's a whole secondary market of investors that are lending money out, 25, 50 grand, on fix and flips and other things out there.

Scott Carson:
A lot of people think if I live in California, I need 1 million to buy a property. Well, no, there's plenty of people that have bought property, but they needed a little bit of help with repairs to fix up the property, to sell it off on the secondary market. We've actually helped a lot of our students get started as private investors if they've got 25, 50 grand, just to get the ball rolling.

Bobbi Rebell:
The advantage to that is that if you can pair up with somebody who knows what they're doing in terms of flipping a house or something, the other person might have the expertise and you have the financing. So not everyone has both. You may not have the expertise and know where to begin with that. They may know what they're doing and maybe they just need more money to get the properties that they intend to flip, and they have the market expertise to do it. The fifth one is taking over payments and then owner financing to another buyer investor. That sounds complicated, a little bit intimidating.

Scott Carson:
It seems like it, but it isn't. But we talked previously about taking over property subject to. I know a lot of people don't want to be into the three Ts, toilets, tenants and trash outs. They don't want to do that. But if you take over property subject to, and it's got a low interest rate, let's just say 3, 4%... Many people are looking to buy a property that can't qualify traditionally and would be happy to pay a higher interest rate of 8 or 9%, that can bring a sizeable down payment down and have you carry the terms of that mortgage for two years, three years while they work to get their credit back on track, and then they can refinance after a period of time. As always, you always want to have an attorney help with your paperwork and close at a title company, and create the paperwork so it's Dodd-Frank compliant, and there's plenty of RMLOS out there that can help you create that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm going to throw a bonus question at you and we have not discussed this in advance, but can you talk to us, another way to invest in real estate without owning property hands-on is REIT. Can you talk about what a REIT is, and the opportunities there?

Scott Carson:
Yeah. A real estate investments trust is a company that has a variety of real estate investments in there. It's a fund and they jump through the hoops of the SEC. Most of the time, it's usually a lot of larger commercial properties in a REIT in a lot of cases, and you can buy a share, and invest in that REIT as a small part of the overall portfolio. And they will usually be paying back an annual return on investment. Often, sometimes, maybe get a little share of the profit on the back end too, as well. But usually, it's just like an investment stock, but in individual stocks of a company, you're buying a share of one commercial property or a portfolio of properties as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Finally, in this rising rate environment, because we do expect the fed to continue to raise rates, and that in turn impacting the housing market, talk about how that affects this whole idea of investing this, whole strategy of investing.

Scott Carson:
Well, you've got to make sure that your money's not losing value every day. With inflation, stuff like that, our buying power is reducing dramatically in a lot of cases, and you want to be buying something that's got fixed assets to be returning on a solid return to you. That's why cash flowing real estate, buying a rental property that's cash flowing, or investing in a note, because notes do really, really well, and maintain the ROIs as far as continuing to pay. It's a lot of opportunity for you. You got to take advantage of it and be putting money into things like that as part of your portfolio.

Scott Carson:
As always, you want to make sure it's balanced, make sure you're investing in something that you have knowledge in or learning to learn knowledge, and always seek your professionals out there. The biggest mistake you can make as an investor is invested something you have no clue about, or you just listened to a podcast. Go listen to the professionals, talk to people who are doing it. There's plenty of professionals around you to do that, to help you guide your way and hold your hand along the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. But you can learn a lot from a podcast, including yours, which has over a million downloads. So quickly tell us about that, and where people can be in touch with you.

Scott Carson:
Yeah. We have the number one podcast in the note investment industry called the Note Closers Show. Like I said, 700 plus episodes. It's a mixture of me teaching specific nuggets about note investing, and then also bringing on great guest experts. Bobbi will be on here shortly, vendors, and other investors in the industry to help you learn firsthand experience from what their journey has been. Their tips or tools, and strategies to help them maximize, and turn problem properties into profitable solution. You can always find the episodes on any of your podcast platforms, but you can also check out the website, weclosenotes.com that's weclosenotes.com. If you're listing, make sure, if you listen to this podcast, make sure you hit that subscribe button and leave Bobbi a five star review. We as podcasters love to hear from our audience, so do Bobbi a favor and hit subscribe and leave a message.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Scott Carson:
Hey, thanks for having to me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
There is something I don't talk about publicly that I have decided to start sharing, even though it can be a bit embarrassing. I get digital overload and it stresses me out, for good reason. Because when you have so much junk on your computer, because you're not as organized as you should be, because you get caught up and all the things that you have to do, if you don't deal with it, all that stuff on your computer starts to really slow things down and can become a total drag on your productivity. For me, there is nothing worse than finally motivating to get stuff done, only to be derailed by a sluggish computer that is just not cooperating. A little while ago, I decided I was going to stop, just kind of hoping that things would get better and I was going to deal with it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I downloaded something called Clean my Mac. It's from a company called MacPaw. I was skeptical, but I took a deep breath and I tried it. Long story short, it totally worked. I loved how I could see it work through my files with clear and easy to understand graphics. I could see what was messing things up. And Clean My Mac would ask me for my okay before deleting files, so that something I did need to keep didn't go bye-bye. That was one of my biggest fears.

Bobbi Rebell:
I recently reached out to the company and they are offering 10% off to my Financial Grownup listeners who want to also get Clean My Mac. To get that 10% off Clean My Mac, you do need to go to my link. It is BobbiRebell.com/CleanMyMac, B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L.C-O-M/CleanMyMac. And that is all one word.

Bobbi Rebell:
I promise you, you'll be so happy. I want you guys to be in touch with me, let me know how it goes. You deserve to lower the stress of data overload. Trust me, so worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay my friends, that was a lot, but really good stuff. I encourage everyone to go to my website. Just my name, BobbiRebell.com, B-O-B-B-I R-E-B-E-L-L, where a transcript is available, so you can review all that information if you are interested. Of course, there's a summary via the show notes as well, right there for you. Absolutely feel free to be in touch with Scott through his website at weclosenotes.com. His podcast, The Note Closer, sets over a million downloads, so that is another great resource for a ton of information to get you started. I do want to remind everyone, you need to know what you are doing if you want to do this kind of investing. But lots of interesting stuff there, and potentially lots of opportunity.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to do more episodes on investing and opportunities for you, so please be in touch and let me know the topics you want me to cover. What do you want to learn more about? You can be in touch by DMing me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1, that's number one, or on Twitter @BobbiRebell. I am also including money tips and investing information in my newsletter, so you can sign up for that right on my website. Super easy, just my name, BobbiRebell.com. Scott and I, by the way, connected through a conference where I spoke, and I would love to get out there and help more people with their money and with investing, and just knowing more about parenting kids and teaching kids about money. So please be in touch through my website, just BobbiRebell.com/speaking if you would like me to come and speak to your group. Of course, big thanks to Scott Carson of WeCloseNotes.com for his help in helping us all be Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a Financial Grownup. The podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast, is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media, @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, and @BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being Financial Grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, MoneyBobbi Rebell KaufmanReal Estate, Real Estate Investing
How To Get Adult Children To Launch with Marriage Kids and Money podcast host Andy Hill
How To Get Adult Children To Launch with Marriage Kids and Money podcast host Andy Hill
 

Bobbi joins Marriage Kids and Money host Andy Hill to talk about everything from realistic money discussions with kids, letting your emerging adults make money mistakes and preventing boomerang kids. 

Bobbi Rebell and Andy Hill review the following:

  • The importance of realistic money discussions with your children

  • Why you need to let your children make money mistakes

  • The balance of gifting wealth and teaching your children the value of hard work

  • How to prevent boomerang kids

 
 
 
 

Follow Andy!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.



Full Transcript:

Worried about your adult child moving back home? You're not alone! Boomerang kids are a group of adult children who move back in with their parents after going out into the world. 

John, a concerned parent of a teen, wants to make sure his daughter doesn’t do this! 

Author Bobbi Rebell joins me to share how we can get adult children to launch (and stay launched).

Bobbi Rebell and I review the following:

  • The importance of realistic money discussions with your children

  • Why you need to let your children make money mistakes

  • The balance of gifting wealth and teaching your children the value of hard work

  • How to prevent boomerang kids

 
Advice, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal FinanceBobbi Rebell KaufmanAndy Hill, Podcast Guest, Podcast Episode, Marriage Kids and Money, Podcast Host, Financial Grownup, Children, Kids and Money
Money Tips for Self-Made Bosses
Money Tips for Self-Made Bosses
 

Learn the best advice, hacks and lessons to be your own self-made boss from top small business owners with authors Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg

 
 
 
 

Follow Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.



Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. This episode is sponsored by UNest. Start investing in your most important asset, your kids, with UNest. Soon you will also be able to give the gift of crypto. Join the UNest legacy wait list and get early access entry into giveaways and much more. Visit unest.co for more information.

Lauren Weinberg:
If you're in the food business, he talks about using a smaller plate when you're taking pictures of food, what time of day, how to capture the best light. He really goes into a lot of specific details, because if you think about social channels and all these places where people are getting information or where they're viewing content from business owners, the better you can put your brand out there with photography and how you portray things, the more likely you are to connect and breakthrough.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because you know what? Grownup life is really hard. But, together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
The money is in the details. If you want to succeed in business, my friends, wise words from Lauren Weinberg. She is the co-author of a new book, Self-Made Boss, that had me both smiling and taking notes as I read it. The other author is a longtime friend of mine, Jackie Reses. We went to Penn together, where we were also Tri Deltas.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jackie and Lauren met while working at Yahoo, and then worked together at Square, where they spent a lot of time with small business owners and entrepreneurs. Now they have come together with their first book, hopefully one of many, Self-Made Boss: Advice, Hacks, and Lessons from Small Business Owners.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview, we cover how businesses can leverage technology to connect more with customers, a great story about a pet-grooming business that you will definitely want to hear, upping the ante on the employee experience, creating an employee culture ... Super important these days when there's a lot of competition for workers, so you want to keep the good ones ... and how to set your company up to pass on to the next generation, although you also need to figure out if you even should.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here are Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg. Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg, you are both financial grownups. Welcome to the podcast.

Jackie Reses:
Thank you for having us.

Lauren Weinberg:
Yes, thanks for having us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Congrats on the book Self-Made Boss: Advice, Hacks, and Lessons from Small Business Owners. By the way, this is extra special because Jackie is a dear friend of mine going back to our days at University of Pennsylvania, where we were roommates and even, dare I say, Tri Delta sorority sisters. Oh my gosh. All right, before we get into the advice that you have for our listeners, you both met working at big companies. Tell us more about how you met and how this book was born.

Jackie Reses:
Sure. So we had the pleasure of meeting at Yahoo. We were both executives who ran the company. We then moved from Yahoo to Square. Lauren, I'll speak for you right now and just keep going for a second, and then you can introduce yourself.

Jackie Reses:
So Lauren is the chief marketing officer of Square. So wow, wow, wow. Incredible. And I ran banking and lending at Square and also the people team. And so, we had the benefit of working at a company that focuses on empowering small businesses and helping them start, run, and grow.

Jackie Reses:
And so, the idea was born out of listening to customers through the millions of Square sellers across the country, particularly in a pandemic, when we saw how much trauma was happening in the small business market. We understood some insights around how small businesses build community and learn and we thought this book would be an incredibly powerful guide to help them build their business.

Lauren Weinberg:
Yeah. I don't have too much to add to that other than, yes, Jackie and I met at Yahoo. We also were both New Yorkers who moved to California. So we shared that journey together of just moving our families across the country. We spent time in California walking around, because there was really nothing else you could do during the pandemic. We thought there's just this void of information.

Lauren Weinberg:
We also had the insight that more people than ever were starting their own businesses. That was true in 2020, where we saw more new business formations, and then again in 2021, where you have the great resignation where people aren't just leaving their jobs to sit home all day. They're leaving their jobs to go and start businesses.

Lauren Weinberg:
We thought, wow, anytime that there's these downturns in the economy or things are changing is a time where we tend to see a lot of innovation and new starts. And so, we thought the timing for putting a book like this out there with this kind of advice would be a good moment for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, it was definitely a good moment, and you have a very optimistic tone, Lauren. I love that. Self-Made Boss also is a book ... Even though it is definitely a business book, it is very practical, it is very specific, but it's driven by personality and it is a book that is joyous. There's a lot of fun stories in here. So I want to ask each of you, what was the funniest story in the book where you just couldn't help but smile?

Jackie Reses:
Yeah, I'll start. One of the things we really enjoyed about the book is that it's written through the eyes of small business owners, and each chapter is a business chapter like HR, finance, hiring, operations, and logistics, legal matters. But each chapter is told through the eyes of four or five small businesses in each chapter and also a handful of experts in each chapter.

Jackie Reses:
There's one in particular that I really enjoyed, and the entrepreneurs' names are Keith and Patricia Miller from Pampered Pooch Playground and Bubbly Paws in Minneapolis. You listen to Keith and Patricia, and it was Keith who I spent the most time with, talk about how they build their team at a grooming shop ... Grooming shops, because they now have a few, in Minneapolis. He had incredible insight in how he focuses on fun and teamwork and creating an environment that feels safe for the dogs, safe for dog customers, and also safe for his employees.

Jackie Reses:
And so, I loved his ideas. One really simple one in building trust was he took a video of the dog getting groomed while it was getting groomed. He saw so many advantages in this idea. From a dog owner's point of view, they could see how their dog behaved during grooming, which could be a trying time for some dogs. The dog obviously felt safe because they were going to be streamed to their owner. For his employees, they felt safe so that they could also show their work. If anything went wrong, they could show what happened. It was a great experience. They could show that as well.

Jackie Reses:
And so, it's kind of like one of those things that you would never think of, but it's a really interesting business hack that he created in the context of his grooming store.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that it's using technology to make it more human and more ... I don't know what you call it with the animal, but you know what I mean. It's connecting people. Lauren, do you have a fun story?

Lauren Weinberg:
I would say that Germanee G. is somebody that really stands out to me, because she epitomizes this idea of following your passion and your dreams. So she had this great job, corporate job, at Gap and she left that job to go become a stylist. She now splits her time between Atlanta and LA. I think just hearing about her saving up her money and just getting ready to take that leap of faith is just really cool, because to me it really, I think, just epitomizes that entrepreneurial spirit that we try to capture in the book and just how she really went for it to go pursue her dreams.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also so relatable because so many people do have these dreams. One thing in the book that I liked is that nothing was too small. You get into some very tiny decisions, but they are very important decisions. So can you share what the most overlooked thing, or one of the overlooked things, that many business owners forget to pay attention to that's really important, it moves the needle?

Lauren Weinberg:
I'll talk about two things to start with. I think one is just the entire look and feel of your business. I think thinking about your business from the notion that every touchpoint that somebody has with your store, what does your window look like? What does it look like when you walk through the door? If you have an online business, your website, your logo, your presence, every interaction that somebody has with your brand is a chance for them to make an impression and form a relationship with you. And so, I would just say all of those details really matter.

Lauren Weinberg:
And so, thinking about them from the very beginning of your business is really important. Then along those lines, we talked to Aundre Larrow in our marketing chapter and he is a photographer. He gave all these like very specific tips on how to take great pictures.

Lauren Weinberg:
So if you're in the food business, he talks about using a smaller plate when you're taking pictures of food, what time of day, how to capture the best light. He really goes into a lot of specific details, because I think if you think about social channels and all these places where people are getting information or where they're viewing content from business owners, the better you can put your brand out there with photography and how you portray things, the more likely you are to connect and breakthrough.

Lauren Weinberg:
So I thought the tips that he provided in there were really very specific, very detailed, and extremely actionable. Like don't take pictures outside in the middle of the day when it's sunny, but do take pictures inside when there's indirect sunlight. Just really practical tips that anyone can use on their own.

Jackie Reses:
I thought some of the financial advice was really helpful also, and just tiny decisions you might make at the very beginning of starting a company. For example, don't combine your business account and your personal account in terms of business accounts. A lot of small business owners, when they start to make it easy on themselves, they conflate the two. But there are a lot of downstream effects that could impact their business just by that one simple decision.

Jackie Reses:
And so, now there are lots of places, particularly online, where you can open up an online business account for free, and then get a lot of the technical tools that help support lots of other analytical decisions you can have.

Jackie Reses:
And so, the reason why you don't want to combine the accounts is if you ever want to get credit, it's hard to take apart your business account and your personal account. When you have to deal with taxes, it makes it more complicated. You're going to spend a headache's worth of time dealing with taxes. You might need to position your company to raise money at some point in the future. It just looks sloppy. Then you clearly have to do a separate accounting. Then you might also need trades and have to do trade invoicing and things like that.

Jackie Reses:
And so, you're going to have to start separating because they're going to want to get credit. They're going to want to see your different elements of your business operating independently.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was the number one hack each of you learned from the self-made bosses that you interviewed, ideally something that you guys ... Even though you have a big, strong history in small business which people can read about in the book, what did you learn?

Lauren Weinberg:
I think Jackie talked about Keith Miller and Bubbly Paws. I think that they were really ahead of their time when it came to just thinking about culture and employee benefits for small business owners. I think a lot of business owners are contending with this fact now, like how do we retain employees?

Lauren Weinberg:
Keith was bringing cupcakes for employees on their birthdays. He was doing engagement surveys. He was offering employees mats to stand on so that their feet were more comfortable throughout the day. I think in a lot of ways, those are really simple things, but not always things that small businesses have front and center when they're thinking about their employee experience.

Lauren Weinberg:
So that was definitely one that I thought, wow, he had the hiring and culture part of the business down in a way that I think a lot of businesses are really trying to get their head around in the moment.

Jackie Reses:
Yeah. Pete Stein, the oyster farmer that you had talked about, he hacked software. So he wanted to optimize his operations and he used bus software in order to build his own optimized routes. And so, it doesn't have to be something super complicated. You can go out and try to find a proxy for what you're trying to do.

Jackie Reses:
My comment before was go find a free online business savings and checking account. In this case, he optimized his utilization. And so, if you're really creative about some of these systems, you can do it in a cheaper way if you need to and have it done more quickly. I think that kind of creativity is great.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Last question. We talk a lot on this podcast about generational wealth. What is your advice to families who want to pass a small business to the next generation? Because it is complicated.

Lauren Weinberg:
It is complicated. I think a couple of things. One is to make sure that you have family members that want to take on your business. We heard a lot from business owners that just didn't have anybody to pass their business on to. So I think that's something that getting your family members involved in, making sure that the interest is there.

Lauren Weinberg:
Then when it does come time to transition, I would say give up some control. I think one of the things we learned from a lot of the people that we interviewed in the book that come from multi-generational businesses is that when the next generation could come in and they were given more free reign to think about how they would change the business operation, that that really helps the business evolve.

Lauren Weinberg:
So one example is with Acme Smoked Fish. That was the company that I talked about with my roommate from college. It's fourth generation. Her brother came in and said, "We really need to upgrade how we think about manufacturing. We have a smoked fish company." At the time, it felt like a huge risk to them, and it ended up becoming the thing that really helped propel their business into the next phase of growth.

Lauren Weinberg:
I think the same thing is true with Pesso's Ice Cream, where they were really starting to think about using data. They used to have 132 flavors and they realized they don't need 132 flavors, that they could have 30 flavors and that those 30 flavors are the most popular, that really cuts down on the amount of time that they spend then producing ice cream flavors that are less popular.

Lauren Weinberg:
So I would say make sure that you, a, have the people there that have the interest. Then give them the room to do things in a little bit of a different way, which does require giving up some control, which is hard to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jackie, by the way, oh, your parents had a small business that you did not take over.

Jackie Reses:
Oh me? Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh yeah.

Jackie Reses:
No, I definitely was not taking over my family's small business. I think I'm the only person in my family to not work for myself. I did come from a small business family, and I appreciated some of the upsides and downsides of working with people that you can't fire and they are part of your family.

Jackie Reses:
And so, the message that I would add to this ... And I think about Jonathan Sciabica from Sciabica Family California Olive Oil and Gourmet Foods. Literally his grandfather and great-grandfather began the business with information they had pulled coming from Italy. The insight from him was to think about rules for how you're going to work together. Think about who decides what and how do you operate.

Jackie Reses:
I think that was really good advice he gave us so that you could try to minimize the ambiguity in how you make decisions and how you operate together. And so, people had their roles. Sometimes in family business, that can be incredibly challenging because you have, I'll call it, sloppy decisions. But where you don't make sloppy decisions and you're very specific about who does what, who decides, it can help alleviate some of that family tension.

Bobbi Rebell:
Excellent advice. Thank you both for joining us. Where can people learn more about you guys and Self-Made Boss?

Jackie Reses:
Well, they absolutely should go to our website, selfmadeboss.com. They can go onto Amazon or any independent book seller, if they prefer that, and look up Self-Made Boss. Hopefully they will enjoy the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you both.

Lauren Weinberg:
Thank you.

Jackie Reses:
Thank you so much for having us.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many great stories we couldn't get to. So even if you are not a small business owner, read this book, just for the entertainment value and the amazing stories these self-made bosses share with Jackie and Lauren.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what resonated with you in the interview? DM me on Instagram, @bobbirebell1, or on Twitter, @bobbirebell. Please share this podcast on social media, or just tell a friend, so we can grow the Financial Grownup community.

Bobbi Rebell:
I also want to thank those you who have reviewed my new book Launching Financial Grownups wherever, maybe Amazon, maybe Goodreads, and have shared it on social media. Please let me know when you do through all the social channels, and I would love to thank some of you. I'll surprise you with some Grownup Gear merch, which, by the way, you can check out at grownupgear.com to celebrate all of the adulting moments in your life.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, if you are looking for someone to speak to your company or your school or your parent group, please get in touch. Just go to my website, super easy, bobbirebell.com, and click on the Work with Me tab, or you can also get a Grownup Gear discount by signing up for the newsletter.

Bobbi Rebell:
Big thanks to Jackie Reses and Lauren Weinberg, authors of Self-Made Boss. Pick up a copy. Thanks to both of them for helping us be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Advice, Authors, Business, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Money, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJackie Reses, Lauren Weinburg, Self-Made Boss
We Wish it was Summer Watch Party: Growing Belushi feat. Special guest Neil Kaufman (Encore)
We Wish it was Summer Watch Party: Growing Belushi feat. Special guest Neil Kaufman (Encore)

Actor Jim Belushi invites viewers to his south Oregon Cannabis farm to learn about his latest business ventures and his passion for the plant’s medicinal healing powers. Bobbi and her husband Neil share why they were mesmerized by this edu-tainment offering from Discovery +. 

A Little About The Show

Well, I got to tell you for those of you that love Breaking Bad and you love Narcos and Ozark, this will round out your drug genre TV addiction. Growing Belushi stars... He's a favorite actor of mine, Jim Belushi. He invites us into his adventures on his cannabis farm in Eagle Point, Oregon on the banks of the roaring Rogue River. We see him learning on the fly, and sometimes through some hard challenges and failures, about farming and general business operations. And he gets into some difficult situations and he learned some pretty harsh lessons about how much, maybe how not so much his brand or his fame is worth when it comes to selling his cannabis. We get front row seats, and we watch him and his family build their business and bring their products to market, which includes several strains like Captain Jack and the Blues Brothers cannabis brand to dispensary shelves. We also get cannabis one-on-one lessons along the way, which I think they're fascinating.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So Jim Belushi, who I think is a good actor, but I'm not a super fan like Neil, but I know who he is. So he refers to himself, he refers to the show, I should say, as edutainment, because during each episode there's sort of these breakouts, kind of like the in the moments that you see on reality shows where he speaks directly to the audience about the cannabis industry and exactly how things work, how things work in the business, but also about the plant and that he's very passionate about the medicinal value of cannabis.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also get, of course, some guest appearances from his celebrity friends, including Dan Akroyd, and that is, of course, giving the show a lot of social media buzz. Their Instagram handle, by the way, @belushisfarm is getting close to a hundred thousand followers as of this recording.

Bobbi Rebell:
So interesting, it's not really a side hustle because it's a real business. I mean, to the point where one of my favorite scenes, there's an intervention and his kid is like, "I'm worried about this business, Dad, because I'm worried"... Not because he's worried about him. He's worried about his inheritance.


Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So, Neil, what is your gut reaction to the show?

Neil Kaufman:
I liked it. I really liked it. It's like watching the profit meets the undercover boss.

Bobbi Rebell:
How many times have you watched it, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
I've seen every episode out there so far, and I've watched them twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
At least twice.

Neil Kaufman:
At least twice so far. I mean, I've only been into it for the last couple of weeks. You got to give me some time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Well, then I fall asleep during all the shows when I watch it for like the second half, you get a lot of half rewatching as I finished the episode I fell asleep during, which is not an insult to the show. That's actually a compliment to the show that I go back to watching it. I just fall asleep during all this stuff. We know that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So you liked it.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you like about it?

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, funny or not funny, it's kind of interesting. I mean, he has the basic problems that we all face, personnel and HR issues. He's got operational issues. I remember in one episode he killed the entire crop because he clearly lacked a little bit of training in how to raise these plants, well, how much sunlight, how much water and he's learning on the fly. What is value? What's market and brand pricing? He's trying to figure out a pricing plan. And there's also local compliance issue. I remember one episode he had to go and test the THC content and his business, it's very tangible. I think it's very relatable to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. This is sort of a millennial moment. There's a point where he has two family members that are millennial. Well, actually I shouldn't pick on millennials. I'm not going to say what generation they are. They might be Gen Z. We don't know, but they are exhibiting stereotypical behaviors of what people perceive millennials as doing, as in like maybe they feel like they need to do something else one day, instead of working, just because they need to have, what would you call it, just a wellness day? What was going on there?

Neil Kaufman:
They were lazy. I think they were slagging off. I mean-

Bobbi Rebell:
Spoken as a Gen X boss, yes.

Neil Kaufman:
That's what I see it as. I mean, personally I would have implemented a fair and balanced staff performance evaluation and maybe an incentive-based bonus plan over there, or...

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, he doesn't have that kind of structure at this point yet. Well, like he goes to sell it and he thinks because he's Jim Belushi, he can sell it for how many times what the product... I mean he just assigned a random value based on his name, which I thought it was very endearing, frankly. I mean, he really played it for laughs so we don't know. Of course, it's a reality show that's somewhat structured. So we don't really know how much is legit and how much is sort of creating storylines, but it was a definite reality check, pun intended, for Mr. Belushi. That just because he's famous doesn't mean people will pay 10 times as much for his product. They'll pay a little more, but maybe not as much more as he thought.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah. You know, the market is what it is. He's got to differentiate that brand in the marketplace. And I think if he wants to get a little bit higher price, he's got to show a little bit, maybe higher quality. You know, I take it back to like an analogy back to even Walter White's Blue Magic, it had to prove itself in the marketplace before it got market demand.

Bobbi Rebell:
That was a Breaking Bad reference, for anyone that didn't catch that.

Neil Kaufman:
Oh, I'm sorry. I should have referenced that right from the get-go. But I mean the point being, I mean, if you're going to sell something that's commoditized, you have to differentiate in some way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about the licensing thing, what do you think about that? So there's a whole bit going back to the idea of the money tips and the business lessons from this, there is a storyline that involves him licensing the Blues Brothers brand, which it was not his brand. It was his older brother's brand with Dan Akroyd.

Neil Kaufman:
It's fair, but I think it was actually really, really smart business sense on his behalf. It takes companies so long and they spend years developing and cultivating their brands. And here he is latching onto a brand, using it as an accelerator to the market, I think it was really a smart move on his behalf.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and also it wasn't just handed to him.

Neil Kaufman:
No doubt, but I think that he's been performing with that band for sometime now, stepping in almost like John Goodman steps in every now and then on the Blues Brothers to perform with them. He's part of that. I think it's a whole brand, which he is already a part of.

Bobbi Rebell:
He goes to South America, obsessed with finding the perfect seeds. What do you think?

Neil Kaufman:
Oh my god. I got to tell you, I cringed a little bit of that because it was painful to watch. Not painful to watch because it was... He finds the seeds, he loses the seeds, and he has to find the seeds again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, no. His employee lost the seeds.

Neil Kaufman:
Well, he has to own that. It's his responsibility. It's his company, so he lost the seeds.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, that's a thing. So when you have a company, you hire employees to do things. When the employees don't do their job, ultimately cost the company, right?

Neil Kaufman:
I thought that was a good lesson there. But it was kind of overshadowed by his constant obsession over Pablo Escobar.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which, of course, got us into watching Narcos-

Neil Kaufman:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
... which we're now watching.

Neil Kaufman:
I think if he was going to look for a marijuana mogul, if you want to call it that, there's one closer to shore. You've got people like Martha Stewart, who's got a cannabis brand with Snoop Dogg these days.

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, that's how mainstream this stuff has become. Martha can get you high with her products in the morning, and then she can feed your munchies at night with her moist oatmeal cookies to satisfy all your cravings. And by the way, I have to add in it's a genius vertical market product integration. She's got you getting high and then filling the food crave at the end. It's genius.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So what do you see as the big money lessons, the big business lessons? For those of you who don't know, you are a consultant for a living, so you advise people on how to improve their businesses, broadly speaking. That's a way big generalization of what you do, but what would your advice be to Mr. Belushi?

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, I gave Neil some questions in advance. This is an on-the-fly question. Let's see how Neil does.

Neil Kaufman:
I have to tell you the one big takeaway I got from looking at the nephew and the other relatives that work there is I think there's a big lesson there, which is never go into business with close friends and family. I think it's just too hard to draw lines, clear lines sometimes. Emotions blur those lines, the logical ones. He knows that this nephew of his is a terrible employee, but he's going to keep him because he's got an emotional attachment. So I think one life lesson here, one huge economic lesson, don't go to business with close friends, because otherwise you can't make those logical decisions.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, do you think that he had a business plan going into this with actual projections of things? I mean, he was way off on pricing of his products, way off.

Neil Kaufman:
I don't know if that was shtick, though, for the camera or really it was just-

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe.

Neil Kaufman:
It may have been. But I think overall I have to give the guy, I would say out of the gate from a business perspective, I think I'd give them a B minus. I think he's up there right out of the gate for being new to this space. He has a growing facility, he's in compliance with local laws and regulations. And he has a backup plan when the first crop went poor, and he's diversifying in products like edibles and vapes and the buds. I think he's doing really well for right out of the gate.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, obviously, having a reality TV show is amazing publicity and if they, well, I should say they renewed it. I think we said that earlier, they did renew it for a second season. So clearly that part is going well, and if you go to their website, you will see they have merch for sale. In that sense, he's got a business plan.

Bobbi Rebell:
What would you do differently if you were there, if you were his business partner?

Neil Kaufman:
I think in advance, I mean, performing some sort of assessment of the types of issues that would come up. Whether or not they're the compliance issues or the strategic pricing issues, I would have put together at least a plan around all of that in advance, kind of architect in advance the issues that he seems to have learned only by mistake along the way. It seems to be he's learning as he's going, as opposed to have planned in advance. It seems to be that he's not executing that plan. He's actually just kind of doing it ad hoc.

Bobbi Rebell:
Next season, we're going to see him putting the product into food. So given that, where do you think he should go with that?

Neil Kaufman:
I like to see him doing some integration, I think, with distributors. So maybe to Whole Foods, those type of organizations that carry CBD products today. I'd like to see how he's going to start almost like a Coca-Cola or anybody else who is bringing a consumer product to market. I like to understand how he's going to be partnering with strategic alliances, like grocery stores, not just dispensaries, but how is he actually getting product broader reach?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I was curious to see, the show is, obviously, focused on just his farm, but this is such a blooming business that I was curious to see who were his rivals out there and to see if there's any sort of gathering of them. There's like a convention for people that are starting up farms and see how he fits in to the industry because I know there's a lot of celebrities that are out there. You mentioned Martha Stewart, but it's definitely something that's very popular, so I'm curious to hear a little bit broader view of the industry.

Bobbi Rebell:
Final takeaway, my love.

Neil Kaufman:
Versatility, agility, flexibility. He's an actor. Look what he's doing right now. I mean, he's becoming a mogul in cannabis production. I think the lesson for everybody is every few years you have to reinvent yourself. I mean, what's state-of-the-art today will be aged years from now? They say that the average turn on technology is every two years now. So I think he's demonstrating someone who's thinking outside the box and doing things that he's never done before, which I think is phenomenal. We should all learn from that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I, literally, agree with everything you just said. I'm just going to say gold star for Neil being an amazing guest.


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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough.

Bobbi Rebell:
I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees and, seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Neil Kaufman:
For those of you that love Breaking Bad, and you love Narcos and Ozark, this will round out your drug genre TV addiction.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard, but together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, my grown-up friends, to the latest installment of our 2021 Financial Grownup Summer Watch Party Series. Okay. You guys know the deal. During COVID, all of us, frankly, not just me, we all had a chance to check out a lot of streaming shows, probably way too many, but there's a lot of undiscovered gems out there that have some really good money lessons. So we are having a Summer Watch Party highlighting some of my personal favorites and some new buzz-worthy shows and, of course, the money tips that we learn from those shows.

Bobbi Rebell:
Joining me for this episode is a guest I have been trying to get on this podcast since it began, the love of my life and someone I spend way too much time watching streaming TV shows with, Mr. Neil Kaufman, my husband, guys. Welcome, Neil.

Neil Kaufman:
Thank you, Bobbi. I am so excited about this episode tonight. I'm so excited.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes. Well, I'm so impressed because you haven't been on yet. It's been a few years, and you have asked frequently, and I was a little afraid you wouldn't do your homework, but you have piles of paper there. You're actually worried about all the rustling papers because you did your homework today. So everyone's in for a real treat because Neil is taking this very seriously.

Neil Kaufman:
I have OCD. For the listeners, I have OCD, and so I obsess over everything.

Bobbi Rebell:
In the best way, though, in the best way, and we're definitely going to get the dirt on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
So this week's show, I made a pun, Neil, because I said dirt, and we're going to talk about farm, get it? It's Growing Belushi, which is a reality TV show on Discovery Plus. It's only a three-episode season so that's definitely something we can all manage to drop in August of 2020. We only discovered this very recently, but it was renewed for a second season already. As is always the case, I got to warn you guys, there are going to be some spoilers here, but it's so worth it. So stay with us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Neil, tell us a little bit about the show.

Neil Kaufman:
Well, I got to tell you for those of you that love Breaking Bad and you love Narcos and Ozark, this will round out your drug genre TV addiction. Growing Belushi stars... He's a favorite actor of mine, Jim Belushi. He invites us into his adventures on his cannabis farm in Eagle Point, Oregon on the banks of the roaring Rogue River. We see him learning on the fly, and sometimes through some hard challenges and failures, about farming and general business operations. And he gets into some difficult situations and he learned some pretty harsh lessons about how much, maybe how not so much his brand or his fame is worth when it comes to selling his cannabis. We get front row seats, and we watch him and his family build their business and bring their products to market, which includes several strains like Captain Jack and the Blues Brothers cannabis brand to dispensary shelves. We also get cannabis one-on-one lessons along the way, which I think they're fascinating.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So Jim Belushi, who I think is a good actor, but I'm not a super fan like Neil, but I know who he is. So he refers to himself, he refers to the show, I should say, as edutainment, because during each episode there's sort of these breakouts, kind of like the in the moments that you see on reality shows where he speaks directly to the audience about the cannabis industry and exactly how things work, how things work in the business, but also about the plant and that he's very passionate about the medicinal value of cannabis.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also get, of course, some guest appearances from his celebrity friends, including Dan Akroyd, and that is, of course, giving the show a lot of social media buzz. Their Instagram handle, by the way, @belushisfarm is getting close to a hundred thousand followers as of this recording.

Bobbi Rebell:
So interesting, it's not really a side hustle because it's a real business. I mean, to the point where one of my favorite scenes, there's an intervention and his kid is like, "I'm worried about this business, Dad, because I'm worried"... Not because he's worried about him. He's worried about his inheritance.

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So, Neil, what is your gut reaction to the show?

Neil Kaufman:
I liked it. I really liked it. It's like watching the profit meets the undercover boss.

Bobbi Rebell:
How many times have you watched it, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
I've seen every episode out there so far, and I've watched them twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
At least twice.

Neil Kaufman:
At least twice so far. I mean, I've only been into it for the last couple of weeks. You got to give me some time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Well, then I fall asleep during all the shows when I watch it for like the second half, you get a lot of half rewatching as I finished the episode I fell asleep during, which is not an insult to the show. That's actually a compliment to the show that I go back to watching it. I just fall asleep during all this stuff. We know that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So you liked it.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you like about it?

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, funny or not funny, it's kind of interesting. I mean, he has the basic problems that we all face, personnel and HR issues. He's got operational issues. I remember in one episode he killed the entire crop because he clearly lacked a little bit of training in how to raise these plants, well, how much sunlight, how much water and he's learning on the fly. What is value? What's market and brand pricing? He's trying to figure out a pricing plan. And there's also local compliance issue. I remember one episode he had to go and test the THC content and his business, it's very tangible. I think it's very relatable to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. This is sort of a millennial moment. There's a point where he has two family members that are millennial. Well, actually I shouldn't pick on millennials. I'm not going to say what generation they are. They might be Gen Z. We don't know, but they are exhibiting stereotypical behaviors of what people perceive millennials as doing, as in like maybe they feel like they need to do something else one day, instead of working, just because they need to have, what would you call it, just a wellness day? What was going on there?

Neil Kaufman:
They were lazy. I think they were slagging off. I mean-

Bobbi Rebell:
Spoken as a Gen X boss, yes.

Neil Kaufman:
That's what I see it as. I mean, personally I would have implemented a fair and balanced staff performance evaluation and maybe an incentive-based bonus plan over there, or...

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, he doesn't have that kind of structure at this point yet. Well, like he goes to sell it and he thinks because he's Jim Belushi, he can sell it for how many times what the product... I mean he just assigned a random value based on his name, which I thought it was very endearing, frankly. I mean, he really played it for laughs so we don't know. Of course, it's a reality show that's somewhat structured. So we don't really know how much is legit and how much is sort of creating storylines, but it was a definite reality check, pun intended, for Mr. Belushi. That just because he's famous doesn't mean people will pay 10 times as much for his product. They'll pay a little more, but maybe not as much more as he thought.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah. You know, the market is what it is. He's got to differentiate that brand in the marketplace. And I think if he wants to get a little bit higher price, he's got to show a little bit, maybe higher quality. You know, I take it back to like an analogy back to even Walter White's Blue Magic, it had to prove itself in the marketplace before it got market demand.

Bobbi Rebell:
That was a Breaking Bad reference, for anyone that didn't catch that.

Neil Kaufman:
Oh, I'm sorry. I should have referenced that right from the get-go. But I mean the point being, I mean, if you're going to sell something that's commoditized, you have to differentiate in some way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about the licensing thing, what do you think about that? So there's a whole bit going back to the idea of the money tips and the business lessons from this, there is a storyline that involves him licensing the Blues Brothers brand, which it was not his brand. It was his older brother's brand with Dan Akroyd.

Neil Kaufman:
It's fair, but I think it was actually really, really smart business sense on his behalf. It takes companies so long and they spend years developing and cultivating their brands. And here he is latching onto a brand, using it as an accelerator to the market, I think it was really a smart move on his behalf.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and also it wasn't just handed to him.

Neil Kaufman:
No doubt, but I think that he's been performing with that band for sometime now, stepping in almost like John Goodman steps in every now and then on the Blues Brothers to perform with them. He's part of that. I think it's a whole brand, which he is already a part of.

Bobbi Rebell:
He goes to South America, obsessed with finding the perfect seeds. What do you think?

Neil Kaufman:
Oh my god. I got to tell you, I cringed a little bit of that because it was painful to watch. Not painful to watch because it was... He finds the seeds, he loses the seeds, and he has to find the seeds again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, no. His employee lost the seeds.

Neil Kaufman:
Well, he has to own that. It's his responsibility. It's his company, so he lost the seeds.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, that's a thing. So when you have a company, you hire employees to do things. When the employees don't do their job, ultimately cost the company, right?

Neil Kaufman:
I thought that was a good lesson there. But it was kind of overshadowed by his constant obsession over Pablo Escobar.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which, of course, got us into watching Narcos-

Neil Kaufman:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
... which we're now watching.

Neil Kaufman:
I think if he was going to look for a marijuana mogul, if you want to call it that, there's one closer to shore. You've got people like Martha Stewart, who's got a cannabis brand with Snoop Dogg these days.

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, that's how mainstream this stuff has become. Martha can get you high with her products in the morning, and then she can feed your munchies at night with her moist oatmeal cookies to satisfy all your cravings. And by the way, I have to add in it's a genius vertical market product integration. She's got you getting high and then filling the food crave at the end. It's genius.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So what do you see as the big money lessons, the big business lessons? For those of you who don't know, you are a consultant for a living, so you advise people on how to improve their businesses, broadly speaking. That's a way big generalization of what you do, but what would your advice be to Mr. Belushi?

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, I gave Neil some questions in advance. This is an on-the-fly question. Let's see how Neil does.

Neil Kaufman:
I have to tell you the one big takeaway I got from looking at the nephew and the other relatives that work there is I think there's a big lesson there, which is never go into business with close friends and family. I think it's just too hard to draw lines, clear lines sometimes. Emotions blur those lines, the logical ones. He knows that this nephew of his is a terrible employee, but he's going to keep him because he's got an emotional attachment. So I think one life lesson here, one huge economic lesson, don't go to business with close friends, because otherwise you can't make those logical decisions.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, do you think that he had a business plan going into this with actual projections of things? I mean, he was way off on pricing of his products, way off.

Neil Kaufman:
I don't know if that was shtick, though, for the camera or really it was just-

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe.

Neil Kaufman:
It may have been. But I think overall I have to give the guy, I would say out of the gate from a business perspective, I think I'd give them a B minus. I think he's up there right out of the gate for being new to this space. He has a growing facility, he's in compliance with local laws and regulations. And he has a backup plan when the first crop went poor, and he's diversifying in products like edibles and vapes and the buds. I think he's doing really well for right out of the gate.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, obviously, having a reality TV show is amazing publicity and if they, well, I should say they renewed it. I think we said that earlier, they did renew it for a second season. So clearly that part is going well, and if you go to their website, you will see they have merch for sale. In that sense, he's got a business plan.

Bobbi Rebell:
What would you do differently if you were there, if you were his business partner?

Neil Kaufman:
I think in advance, I mean, performing some sort of assessment of the types of issues that would come up. Whether or not they're the compliance issues or the strategic pricing issues, I would have put together at least a plan around all of that in advance, kind of architect in advance the issues that he seems to have learned only by mistake along the way. It seems to be he's learning as he's going, as opposed to have planned in advance. It seems to be that he's not executing that plan. He's actually just kind of doing it ad hoc.

Bobbi Rebell:
Next season, we're going to see him putting the product into food. So given that, where do you think he should go with that?

Neil Kaufman:
I like to see him doing some integration, I think, with distributors. So maybe to Whole Foods, those type of organizations that carry CBD products today. I'd like to see how he's going to start almost like a Coca-Cola or anybody else who is bringing a consumer product to market. I like to understand how he's going to be partnering with strategic alliances, like grocery stores, not just dispensaries, but how is he actually getting product broader reach?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I was curious to see, the show is, obviously, focused on just his farm, but this is such a blooming business that I was curious to see who were his rivals out there and to see if there's any sort of gathering of them. There's like a convention for people that are starting up farms and see how he fits in to the industry because I know there's a lot of celebrities that are out there. You mentioned Martha Stewart, but it's definitely something that's very popular, so I'm curious to hear a little bit broader view of the industry.

Bobbi Rebell:
Final takeaway, my love.

Neil Kaufman:
Versatility, agility, flexibility. He's an actor. Look what he's doing right now. I mean, he's becoming a mogul in cannabis production. I think the lesson for everybody is every few years you have to reinvent yourself. I mean, what's state-of-the-art today will be aged years from now? They say that the average turn on technology is every two years now. So I think he's demonstrating someone who's thinking outside the box and doing things that he's never done before, which I think is phenomenal. We should all learn from that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I, literally, agree with everything you just said. I'm just going to say gold star for Neil being an amazing guest. I think that you nailed it and maybe you'll come back again. I don't know. Everyone, write in.

Neil Kaufman:
I would say that if Jim Belushi is listening, I want him to know that I did follow him on Instagram today so he have plus one to the numbers and I'm a big fan, both acting and what he's doing today. I think bravo, kudos to him. I think he's doing phenomenal.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. Like I said, I'm just going to say ditto to that. I love the show. It was totally worth watching. Do not be insulted that I fell asleep, Mr. Belushi, because I do that all the time. But I did wake up and re-watch it over again, which is the ultimate compliment from me, trust me. Definitely worth watching. I can't wait for next season, and maybe we'll reach out to the team over at Growing Belushi and see if we can get him on when the new season comes out. So, come on to the show, Jim.

Neil Kaufman:
I think maybe we should do a product review next time so we should sample and then do a product review. I think that would be appropriate.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We'll figure out what is compliant within the law. I don't know what the law is on that, but maybe we need to take a family field trip to Oregon. I don't know.

Neil Kaufman:
I'm in.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think that might be an order.

Neil Kaufman:
I'm in. I'm in.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Thank you, Neil, love of my life, for joining us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Everyone else, thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please spread the love. Tell a friend. DM me on Insta @bobbirebell1. Let me know if you want Neil back. Let me know if you want us to try to get Jim Belushi on when his second season of Growing Belushi comes on. And, of course, let me know what else you want to hear on the podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you all. Neil, thanks for helping everyone be financial grownups.

Neil Kaufman:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Weil. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, MoneyBobbi Rebell KaufmanNeil Kaufman, Growing Belushi, Cannabis, Summer Watch Party, Discovery, Discovery +, Breaking Bad, Narcos, Ozark, Jim Belushi
Financial free association Money Tips with Stacked author Joe Saul-Sehy
Financial free association Money Tips with Stacked author Joe Saul-Sehy
 

Joe Saul-Sehy, along with co-author Emily Guy Birken, is out with his first book. Bobbi puts him on the spot with a fun game of financial free association. Listen to hear how Joe did- and if you would have the same answers. 

Money Tips from Joe’s book

  1. Financial Fasting

  2. Electricity Jumanji

  3. Pretend it’s the 70’s and Do the hustle

  4. Understanding the CubE

  5. Emily’s love of custom stickers

  6. Get Two drinks even with American Express

  7. Cancel culture ( as in credit cards)

  8. Einstein approved 

  9. God Invest the queen

  10. Analysis paralysis

  11. Quick Draw

 
 

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never-ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love, but the truth is, it's also really hard, and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic, and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
My team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you are the grownup, either," and new colors and designs of our top-selling Generosity line.

Bobbi Rebell:
For the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity Collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code HOLIDAY, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y, and thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy Holidays, guys.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
You play the reward game once you have your act together. I had no business playing the reward game before. Now, I'm getting all that money back that I gave them by making sure that I have two drinks on them every time I fly.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips For Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownups. Do you always make sure you get your money's worth, especially when you paid for something and you feel like it's kind of your revenge reward kind of thing? So for example, and this is something we're going to talk about in the episode, in the interview, if you've earned status on a credit card, are you going to use every single perk and get every possible freebie? Even if it's not something that you necessarily would've wanted, otherwise? I mean, there's no reason not to. Money is funny that way, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Also funny is Joe Saul-Sehy. He is the co-host of the Stacking Benjamin's Podcast and the co-author of Stacked: Your Super-Serious Guide to Modern Money Management, out today, by the way, if you are listening to this episode on the day that it drops. If you've been listening, by the way, to this podcast for a while, you know that name because Joe and I used to have a little podcast together, called Money With Friends, that we put on hold because, well, we both got book deals. So, Joe stopped by to promote his book, and I, of course, took the opportunity to put him on the spot with a little game of financial free association. Joe was kind enough to play along, and you'll get a kick out of this, I promise. Here is Joe Saul-Sehy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Joe Saul-Sehy, my friend, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
It feels like old days. We're back on together, Bobbi. We got the band back together.

Bobbi Rebell:
We are back on, and typical of me, I'm literally multitasking as we start because I didn't check all your audio stuff, but you're all good. Of course, you are.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
And typical of me, I am about 20 minutes late.

Bobbi Rebell:
That is typical of you, yes. Okay. So, we know we are still ourselves, very much so. This is a big occasion. We stopped our mutual podcast because we both, which was called Money With Friends, which was an amazing podcast, and maybe one day it will be revived, but we stopped it because we each got these book deals. So of course, you had to be first. Your book is coming out in late... December 28th. So first of all, congratulations for getting it done.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one doubted it at all.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
The first time I tried it, it took 10 years. So as you know, I got a great co-author. Emily Guy Birken kind of helped me get through the process, which was fantastic.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So Joe, you beat me to the punch. Your book is coming out first. It is called Stacked: Your Super-Serious Guide to Modern Money Management. I like to keep you on your toes, so we're going to play a game, and it's called Financial Free Association. What I'm going to do is, I'm going to pull some words and catch phrases out of the book, Stacked, and you're going to tell me a money tip or a money lesson from that phrase. Just so everyone knows, this has not been rehearsed. I am throwing this at Joe, spontaneously. He's doing a little crying on the screen, which you guys can't see, but it's going to be all worth it because I know he's going to come up with some amazing advice from these little catch phrases and words from his book, Stacked, which by the way, again, co-written with Emily Guy Birken, who we have to give all the credit for the book, and Joe is wonderful as the face of the book, promoting it here today with us. All right. So, here we go. Number one, financial fasting.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Financial fasting is when you to take a break, just like when you do a regular fast. You take a break from spending to really see what comes out. What's important to spend money on, and what's not important to spend money on? So when you do a financial fast, you say, "You know what? I'm no longer going to maybe," along with eating, "I'm no longer going to eat at restaurants. I'm no longer going to buy stuff I don't need," outside of, let's say, groceries to live, right? But even before groceries to live, if you're really doing the fast, depending on how big a fast you're doing, you might not buy groceries until you clean everything out of the freezer and the refrigerator. You go through everything before you end the fast. A fast is a way to figure out what's important in your life and what's not, so when you create the real budget, you can design it around those things that are important to you and avoid all the stuff that's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number two, electricity Jumanji.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
My kids are 26 now, but this is back when they were about eight-years-old, and at that time, bills came in the mail once a month for the utility bill for electricity. So what we did was, we just took out some graph paper, and you could still do this, right, with your monthly... if you get the electronic notice of what your bill is going to be each month. We took out some graph paper, and we played a limbo game. We played Jumanji. It's, how low can you go with this electric bill? And it was awesome because I went from me being the only one who cared.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Guess what the prize was? There was no prize. There was no prize. It was just, let's see if we can do this together and make it a game. How low can we go? Can we beat last month? And just that little bit of motivation, I would be watching a television, and I'd leave the room to go get a snack, and I come back, and my daughter's got the TV off. She's like, "Dad, you left the room. You got to turn the TV off. You're wasting electricity." So, my kids went from not caring at all to caring a lot, and it wasn't through yelling. It was through involving my kids in what the real goal was for the family.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm processing that. I'm seeing how I can apply that to my family. It's hard.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
It is hard.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're going to work at it. All right, for number three, we're going to pretend it's the 1970s. Okay. Do the hustle.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
I had a great interview with a guy that, Bobbi, you know I've had a crush on for a long time, Austin Kleon, who wrote Steal like an Artist, and he's this business person meets artist, and I asked him about side hustles and he said, "You know what? Time away from your job actually informs your job." And he said, "It's when I play guitar that I get great ideas for my business. It's not when I'm in the trenches doing the business. It's when I'm away." He said, "So, I really like side hustles because they kind of inform each other. It keeps you fresh. And, if it's for something small, like I want to pay off this credit card that I screwed up with, or I want to pay for this trip without having it come out of the budget. I want it to be extra, the side hustle can do all of that."

Bobbi Rebell:
Number four, understanding the cube, understanding the cube.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Oh, this is fantastic. I had a mentor tell me this, that whenever you're in a discussion, we all are trying so hard to get whoever we're in this discussion with to understand our point of view, and yet every discussion that we have is a cube. You're sitting, Bobbi, on one side of the cube, and I'm sitting on the other side of the cube, and it's imaginary. My mentor told me, he said, "Whoever sees the other person's side of the cube and looks at it from their point of view, from the other person's point of view, that person will be the first person to really be able to bridge that gap between the two of us." So when you're in any negotiation, and in the book, we talk about it in terms of a salary negotiation, right?

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Understand what your boss wants. Your side of the cube is I got a lot of bills. I want more money. Daddy needs new shoes, whatever the thing is, that's what we want, but your boss wants more productivity, wants to understand how they tell their boss to give you a raise. What are you going to do for the department then that you're not doing for them now? Understand the other side. There's a truism that mom has said for a long time, that this goes back to, which is seek first to understand, and then to be understood, and that really is what the cube is all about.

Bobbi Rebell:
This one's a bit of a twist. Custom stickers, as in something Emily wanted. Custom stickers.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
You pulled for these, man. We get tripped up by credit card debt, and Emily, as a young college student, was like, "You know what? I'm not going for the Frisbee, or the pizza, or the stadium blanket," that they would used to have on campus. As you know, Bobbi, they can't do that anymore. But back in the day, man, a lot of us got in trouble for a free, quote, free Frisbee or a free stadium blanket, and they still offer these things even through the mail now. So, Emily was very proud of herself that she did not get caught up in credit card debt by the usual means.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
And then, she got this letter in the mail from a credit card company, and it said that she could get stickers, that she would be able to choose what her credit card looked like on the front, and if you want to get Emily, you just got to offer her stickers, and she's yours. So, Emily ended up in credit card debt, like the rest of us, over custom stickers, which was really to make the bigger point that credit card companies have done so much research on you, and they know what your hot button is, and if they don't, they're going to find it and realize that there's a serious game being played against you when it comes to credit cards. So, you need to play a serious game on your end, as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Next, we've got tipsy flying as in two drinks at the airport lounge, two drinks at the airport lounge, Joe, courtesy of American Express?

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Two drinks at the... Is this talking about getting the reward cards?

Bobbi Rebell:
You talk about the fact that you always get at least two drinks...

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
... when you go to the Amex lounge.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
This is...

Bobbi Rebell:
So, you're always a little tipsy on the airplane, Joe, but you got your money's worth. That's the important thing.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's okay to be a little bit tipsy, as long as you get your money's worth.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Well, no. Actually, the bigger point there was actually that maybe I wrote that wrong, because I didn't want that to be the point. The point, though, was I was a mess with credit cards when I was, like we just talked about with Emily, I was a disaster with credit cards. I had a bunch of credit card debt. I also went for the reward point program when I had no business doing that. I'm paying 25% interest, and I'm thinking, "Yeah, I'm getting these rewards." Well, I'm paying way, way over the amount that I was paying then in interest for the rewards I was getting. I was funding my own quote rewards. Well, now, I'm the opposite.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Now, I have this badass credit card that gets me into the lounges, and I love... It's funny. My son just went to one of the lounges with us. He went as my guest on a flight that we just took, and he's like, "Oh, I've heard about these. I don't really care," and then we went up into the lounge, and 10 minutes in, Bobbi, he's like, "How much did this cost? What is this? Really? I can eat whatever I want over here and..." Yes. You can do all that. You have your own little private area. It's very nice. They take care of you. You're in this calm environment. I now go to the airport, sometimes, 45 minutes early, just so I can have a good meal before my flight, relax a little bit, and to your point, have a couple drinks. But my point is, you play the reward game once you have your act together. I had no business playing the reward game before. Now, I'm getting all that money back that I gave them by making sure that I have two drinks on them every time I fly.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, let's stick with the credit card theme here. Beware cancel culture. Beware of cancel culture.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yeah. If you cancel a credit card that's your oldest credit card, that may lower the amount of time that they think that you've had credit. I actually had this horrible credit card from the mid '90s, Bobbi, that I only last year finally canceled. I finally canceled it last year, and it's because I've got plenty other credit. My length of credit's fine without it, so I went ahead and got rid of that. What is interesting, though, because like everybody or like a lot of people, my credit cards also show me my credit score all the time now, which is a cool perk of a lot of cards. When I canceled that card, still went down a couple points. It went from like 820 to 815, and nothing happened, besides the fact that I canceled a credit card.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so wrong.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
It's stupid.

Bobbi Rebell:
But it is what it is. Like a lot of these things, it's wrong. It shouldn't be, but we got to work with what...

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
... we got to work with.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Know how the game's played.

Bobbi Rebell:
Next up, Einstein-approved.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
There's this phrase that's been attributed to Einstein, which is about compounding interest is the eighth wonder of the world. A lot of people say, Einstein said that. Well, Einstein didn't really say that. However, it still made our book because it's so often attributed to him, and we talked about here's this guy who's splitting atoms for fun, doing these crazy things with tweezers and atoms that nobody else can do, and he's bragging, supposedly, about compounding interest, and what is compounding interest? People talk about it different ways.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Here's the way Emily and I talk about it. Your money, when you get interest, it's like your money, Bobbi had a baby, right? And that's interest, but compounding interest is when your money baby has a baby, and then your money grandkid has a baby, and you're in with this $1. You're creating this lineage of compounding interest, so that... I'm as lazy as the next guy, so that I can sit on my butt at home, and I've got my money out there. All my money babies are out there working for me. How great is that? And so, that strategy of building money on your money, that's Einstein-approved.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Last one for the win, analysis paralysis.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yes. Oh, I play board games as you know, Bobbi, and we've got this friend who takes all day to do anything, and it kills the game. That's fine. Killing game nights, okay, but taking so long to make a decision that you miss the opportunity is absolutely horrible, and I have a coach who taught me recently that you should work by the 80% rule, which is if it's 80%, right and the way that you should go, then you got to get moving that way, and I like that because movement, even the wrong movement, teaches you something. If you learn that this was the wrong way to move, it's easy, then, to tweak, right? We'll tweak. We'll either not make the same mistake, or we'll tweak it to be better next time, or we can tweak it this time. Most of the time, movement is not going to hurt you, unless it's second-guessing your strategy. That's the one place where sitting in one place is good, but too many people suffer from... I need more information. I need more information. It's just, I don't want to make a decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true, and so many things just don't happen in life because we just don't act, and I think one thing that I like about Sacked is that it will hopefully inspire lots of people to act. Tell us more about... Wait, I have to say the whole title properly now. We practiced this. Stacked: Your Super Serious Guide to Modern Money Management. Did I say it right, Joe?

Joe Saul-Sehy:
You did. So when you're pitching the book, I was telling these editors from these different publishing houses. So here's the idea. I'd like to take the Cub Scout Wolf Guide, combined with the Hardy Boys Detective Manual, but make it serious and about money for adults. What do you think? And I thought, they're going to think I'm crazy, and the world's biggest publishing house said, "We're in. That sounds awesome." The book is meant to be very easy at the beginning, because I don't know where you're starting from, but at the end, it goes over some very seriously complex things. We start off with stacking your first Benjamin, and then stacking Benjamins, and then protecting your Benjamins, and then stacking stacks on your stacks of Benjamins. It isn't meant to be read from beginning to end. It's meant to be this guidebook, like I had when I had the Hardy Boys Detective Manual. I'd pick it up and learn how to...

Joe Saul-Sehy:
When my mom touched a doorknob, my brother and I would go over with the tape. Right? We'd make that we got that fingerprint, because you never knew what mom was doing. I wanted people to carry the book around that way. So, it's Stacked. It's out today, which is awesome. We're so excited, and it's available everywhere. Please, if you're going to buy it, buy it from your local bookshop, if at all possible, and we've got lots of links on our site, stackingbenjamins.com/stacked. I'm also going to be going on the road, 42 cities. I'm going to come see Bobbi, and we're going to see different cities. So if you want to follow us and come hang out and nerd out with other like-minded people, see what city is close to you, and come hang out with us in the next three months.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thanks, Joe.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
So much great stuff there to get us set up for the new year. I love the part about Joe making sure to get the most out of those reward cards, because like I talked about in the open, we totally do things that we can get for free, even if we don't actually want them as is often the case with things like free food, or in Joe's case, free alcohol. We just like the idea that it's free, and we don't want to miss that opportunity, even if we don't actually want the thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I'm curious, what freebies do you guys take, just because they're free and maybe you wouldn't, if you actually were paying for them? Probably a lot, but you kind of feel like you earned it, right? So those kind of things, DM me on Instagram at @BobbiRebell1 or on Twitter @BobbiRebell, and I'm going to have some freebies for all of you in the new year, as I get ready to release my book, called Launching Financial Grownups. Get on my newsletter to be the first ones to hear about them. You can sign up by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
In the meantime, Stacked is now out, so get your copy, and get yourself set up for the new year in a really good way. Big thanks to my friend, Joe Saul-Sehy, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media. @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and @BobbiRebell on, both, Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media, and tag me, so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself, as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Advice, Authors, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJoe Saul-Sehy, Stacked, Stacking Benjamins, Author, Financial Fasting, Electricity Jumanji, Do The Hustle, Understand The Cube, Credit Card Rewards, Cancel Culture, Einstein Approved, God Invest The Queen, Analysis Paralysis, Quick Draw
Brainstorm while sleepy + 10 other money making tips from Mindstorms author Kathleen Celmins.
Brainstorm while sleepy + 10 other money making tips from Mindstorms author Kathleen Celmins.
 

Learn from Mindstorms author Kathleen Celmins how to know which ideas are worth monetizing vs. keeping as a hobby, why and how you should record and watch yourself speaking on video, and specific to come up with a business idea that you can monetize.

11 Money Tips to making more money

  • Drill down to find your expertise- do this while sleepy- you should be able to smile at every topic when you are done with the list

  • It’s the small ideas that make a lot of money

  • Not all hobbies and interests are meant to be monetized

  • Find your over arching topic, idea and word

  • Record yourself on video talking about your ideas- then watch it

  • People are willing to pay to solve problems- come up with a list of problems you can solve

  • Write a book and step on a stage

  • Create digital products

  • Every 90 days find a new income stream to build

  • How to battle resistance

  • Build content on what you own not rent because the rules can change

 
 

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list, that includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love. But the truth is it's also really hard and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you're the grownup either." And new colors and designs of our top selling Generosity line. And, for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity collection, then we'll gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code HOLIDAY, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. And thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays, guys.

Kathleen Celmins:
So, what are the problems that you can solve? Not what are the problems you can solve better than anyone else in the world, but what are some of the problems that people come to you with and leave with a resolution?

Bobbi Rebell:
You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebel author of how to be a financial grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome everyone to a episode of the money tips for financial grown ups podcast. I'm your host, Bobbi Rebell. Let's start today with a question, do you ever stop and think what if I could make money not doing my job, but doing something I love? Really, stop running around and focus. Are you thinking that now? I'm not going to tell you to just go for it. In fact, in many cases, you should not go do what you love for money. That is the advice from this week's grownup guest, Amplify Now's Kathleen Celmins.

Bobbi Rebell:
Her new book, MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur has a lot of what to do, but just as importantly has some very big don'ts. And, trust me, I've done the don'ts, it's not good. You got to listen to Kathleen. There were so many incredible nuggets of wisdom in her book we raced through about 11, but we just barely touched the surface. So, don't worry about taking notes. As a reminder, everything is on my website, bobbirebell.com just go to the Podcast tab, show notes, you'll get the full transcript. But meanwhile, listen up. She's really good. Here is Kathleen Celmins.

Bobbi Rebell:
Kathleen Celmins, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm happy to have you. You've given me so much informal advice over the years about how I can monetize various business ventures of mine. I've taken some of your advice, I probably should take all of your advice because I'd be a lot wealthier by now, but I'm excited that you're going to your wisdom with all of our listeners.

Kathleen Celmins:
Well, thank you so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
And to that point, you wrote a book that is going to be very helpful to our listeners called MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur. This book sort of echoes the kinds of things that you do with your in-person clients. So everyone can it at their own pace at home. I have 11 tips that I took away from this book. We're going to try to plow through them as quickly as possible to get them all into the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
The first one... And, by the way, you say that you should do these a little bit sleepy. I want you to explain why, while you answer the first one, which is that you're going to drill down to find your expertise. So, you're going to do this while you're sleepy. Tell us about that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. Especially this first one, because if you do it first thing in the morning, you think, "Well, I don't even know how I brushed my teeth this morning. Like I don't know anything about anything. I'll never figure it out." But if you take your whole day and you do a bunch throughout the day and you get out of your desk, you get out of your office, you go out into the world, and somebody asks you for advice and you come back and you think, "Well, I did give somebody advice today. And I actually last week I give somebody advice too." By the end of the day, when you're tired is when you are the most creative. It's not when you should balance your checkbook, or do anything mathematic, but it's when you can really think about your ideas.

Kathleen Celmins:
And so, when you're drilling down on your expertise, there's a lot of different ways to come about it. It's what do you love doing? I don't start with that, but what do people ask you about? What are you the go-to expert in at work? What do your friends ask you about? What section of the bookstore or the library do you head toward every time without fail? That's different for everybody. What are the ordinary things that you find yourself explaining frequently that come really easy to you, but you see people taking a bunch of notes on? That's a good starting point for people who think, "Man, there's a lot of money out there to be made. I don't know how to get a piece of it." To me, that's a really good place to start.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, like you said, when you're at the end of the day, you sort of have this cumulative knowledge of all the things that you've been saying all day, and maybe some of those ideas will bubble to the top and be top of mind. And, hopefully, you'll smile at all of the topics.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number two, it is the small ideas that make a lot of money. That's kind of counterintuitive because I always think like we're waiting for the big idea. It's the small ideas you say.

Kathleen Celmins:
Maybe small ideas, isn't the right word. But it's the most simple, the thing you could put on a bumper sticker. There's a lot of profound wisdom to be found in the smallest thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number three, not all hobbies and interests are meant to be monetized.

Kathleen Celmins:
That's kind of a note to myself or even all of the entrepreneur friends that I have. My example was a friend of mine asked me to photograph her wedding. And I thought, "Oh, that'd be really fun. I really like her. I love her fiance. I have a fun camera. I need a new light. Okay, whatever. That sounds fun." And I had a great time. We did an engagement session. I did wedding photos and it was really, really fun. And I came home and I thought, "I'm keeping that as a hobby because I don't want to take away the joy of just grabbing my camera and going out and photographing the sunset." If everything can be monetized, and everything, can you have to keep something sacred. And you have to kind of test to see where that line is. It's really hard to do, but it's the sort of thing where you want to keep your beginner's mindset, your amateur's mentality. It helps a lot.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I think that's really important to remember in this age where everyone says, "Follow your passion for your career," but maybe your passion should just be your passion. That's okay too. That's really important to remember that sometimes work can be work depending on it shouldn't be miserable, but it's okay for work to be work.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number four, find your overarching topic, idea, and word. So this is sort of an exercise that people go through.

Kathleen Celmins:
Right so in one of the MINDSTORMS, we talk about expertise and you come up with a whole bunch of lists. And then one of the things you do is you highlight, and circle, and underline or whatever the things that show up on more than one list. Those are the kinds of things that you think about. Like you putting your ideas, you're downloading your brain into folders those are the titles on the outside of your folders.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number five, this is something that I think a lot of your students kind of were hesitant about, but it is record yourself on video talking about your idea, and then watch it. The second part being even harder, I think. I have trouble watching myself and I make a living doing video content basically.

Kathleen Celmins:
Me too, and me too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah.

Kathleen Celmins:
It is hard. You will find though, where you stumble. And the more you practice, and the more you dig into why you're stumbling, the better you can be about articulating your ideas in the future.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what do you say to people that just are so hesitant?

Kathleen Celmins:
Don't publish it anywhere. Don't do it on YouTube Live. Just put it on your phone and watch it yourself. To your same point about not every hobby needs to be monetized, not everything you do on your phone, or on your computer needs to be public.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's such a good reminder.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, the next one is people are willing to pay to solve problems. So, come up with a list of problems you can solve. This, I think, is so important because there's so many products out there and ideas that may sound like a great idea, but if it doesn't solve a problem it's really hard to monetize sometimes.

Kathleen Celmins:
It's also really hard to talk about complicated solutions. And so, the more complex your solution, the more likely you are, as a person, as a business owner, to really talk about the details of the solution. But remembering that people do pay to solve problems period. And that's another way to get at what your expertise is. So, what are the problems that you can solve? Not what are the problems you can solve better than anyone else in the world, but what are some of the problems that people come to you with, and leave with a resolution?

Kathleen Celmins:
The more you can drill down on that, the easier it is to sell. If the problem you're solving is how to look good on your Instagram feed all day, every day. Great. That is a very specific problem you can solve. That's not mine, but...

Bobbi Rebell:
But it does sell. I mean people will absolutely pay to have someone help them with their social media.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number seven, very near and dear to my heart and to yours, write a book and step on a stage.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. And those are hard as I have just recently found out.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Kathleen Celmins:
But it's a really good way to package up a lot of the things that you know. And writing a book is really challenging for the simple reason that you think you have to distill all of the knowledge you've ever gained into one book. And so, one of the things I say in the book is no, write your first of 10 books. Commit to writing 10 books. Then, that first one is nowhere near the mountain it was when you thought you had to write your odyssey, basically, on that. And stepping on a stage is hard also but, depending on who you are, it's nowhere near as hard as writing a book.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I agree with that. And stepping on stage, once you're on stage, it's much easier. It's the moment before you go on that's really the hardest.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number eight, create digital products. This is something I have really struggled with. You've urged me to do a video course and I am pushing back on you. I'm a bad student. All right, create digital products. Tell us more about that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah so, let's take the how to look good on your Instagram feed all day, every day. That's a very specific problem that you can solve. And it's probably not one you can just say, "Be yourself and smile more." One of the things you want to do is really show people exactly the step by step process. And, in order to do that, you give them the steps they need. And so, that can take a lot of different forms.

Kathleen Celmins:
Digital courses are really popular right now. Independent one on one coaching can be something you do. In fact, I say to lead with that because if you're coaching somebody through it, take notes, tell them, "First thing you need to do is make sure you have good lighting." Oh, good. Okay so, step one, lighting. So, then you're building out your digital product as you're getting paid to.

Bobbi Rebell:
So smart.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number nine, every 90 days find a new income stream to build. So, you're doing that. Are you keeping the old ones, or you're sort of dropping the ones that weren't working every 90 days?

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah so, it totally depends.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Kathleen Celmins:
So 90 days, to me, I think of that meme, the diamond mine, one where the person turns around right before they get the big diamond. You want to make sure you give it a full 90 days and, again, a lot of this is notes to myself, or my past self. That got to a point where I was convinced that people didn't need marketing help at one point, because I had not asked more than a handful of people, if they needed marketing help. And if I had not given it that full 90 days, spoiler alert, they do. Everybody needs marketing. But if you don't give it the full effort, if you don't decide to commit to something for an entire quarter, you're going to give up before you hit that diamond.

Kathleen Celmins:
And, to your point, not every one of them is going to hit. Maybe this market isn't interested in that solution. You're not going to know that until you've had conversations for three months. And so, giving yourself permission to change every three months, but also give yourself permission to stay the course for three months. Because every 90 days sounds, when we're talking about it, sounds like no time at all. But, when you're in the middle of it, feels like forever. The consistency will pay off down the line.

Bobbi Rebell:
The next one is build content on what you own not rent because the rules can change.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yes. So, you only own two things, and you don't even really because you're renewing your domain, but the two things you own are your website content and your email list. Everything else is at the mercy of somebody else's algorithm. And the algorithm is set up to make the people stay on that platform. Not to help individual business owners grow their own businesses on their platform. That's true across the board. So that's true with all social media platforms. It's true with course platforms. It's true with email lists that get your content.

Kathleen Celmins:
So if you have a newsletter, keep it on something that you can always access. If you have a course, make sure you know the rules of who owns your content. For a lot of times, the content is owned by, or kept hostage by the course platform. I have a former client who had a course that was selling really well, and then had six chargebacks in three weeks. And the platform locked her out of the content that she created. She could not communicate with. So, there's a lot of things that seem really easy are really... To me it's like building a house on rented land. "Okay, you can have this house. You live in it as long as you want. I'll never charge you rent," until they do right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Kathleen Celmins:
Then you've got something you did not anticipate.

Bobbi Rebell:
The final thing I want to have you talk about is that commercial success is not passive. There are so many people out there talk about digital courses, on all this passive income tell us the deal.

Kathleen Celmins:
Okay, the only passive income are investments where your money is making money on its money. That's it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Like stocks, you're talking about stocks, things like that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. Anything like that, where you put money in the market and you decide to take it out another time. That's it, that's the long and short of passive income. The rest of it takes a lot of work, which is why it's worth thinking about in terms of, yes, there's so much money to be made on the internet where, at the very beginning of it, you can have your piece of it, but it's not something where you can just set up a sales page and then get your Lamborghini tomorrow.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. And even people talk about real estate is passive income. It's not passive because you're either managing it yourself, dealing with tenants, or whatever, the electricity is out, or you're paying a management company. Someone has to be in charge. And so, therefore it's never passive.

Kathleen Celmins:
Right. Really, honestly, the only passive income is when your money is making money on itself in the stock market in general. So, thinking about that in terms of you're going to build this, you're going to build something, you're going to download ideas from your brain you can't just sit back and wait for something to happen. You got to work toward it and it's worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I think your book MINDSTORMS is definitely going to help a lot of people that can't get to you. Personally, reading really feels like you're there with you in a session with your three or four, a tight group going through these exercises. I particularly loved the back half of the book because you're very specific about exactly what to do and the steps to take. It's not one of these sort of just thoughtful books where you're just thinking about things. There's actual steps of specific things that people should be doing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about where we can find the book and where we can learn more about you and all of your stuff going on, all of your products.

Kathleen Celmins:
Sure. Thank you for saying that the book has its own URL. It's mindstormsbook.com and then I am, myself, on all of my social media. So I'm @KathleenCelmins on Instagram and Twitter, I have a lower presence on Facebook. But my business website is amplified, past tense, now.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that name.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thanks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for being here.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. This was wonderful.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, much great advice from Kathleen. I've gotten a lot, as I said, behind the scenes over the years. And I'm really glad that I was able to share some of her experience, and her guidance with all of you. So, definitely check out the book because there's a lot more there.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I related to so much of what we went over, especially the idea of not just speaking on video, I don't have so much trouble speaking on video, but watching myself back, that is really hard for me. It's part of why I'm bad about posting my appearances on TV, and the quotes in the press on my social media. I post a small fraction and I really should be better at that because do get a lot of nice feedback, and support from you guys when I do do that. So, hopefully, I'm sort of manifesting it by staying out loud. Hopefully, some of you will hold me accountable to it and I'll start posting a little bit more of those to share with you guys because they are kind of fun and I do enjoy it when I get the feedback from all of you. So thank you for that.

Bobbi Rebell:
And thank you also for listening and supporting this podcast. If you're any value out of this, please consider giving back by sharing on social media. Tag me, of course. Or write a review, or even just make sure that you're subscribed. It's now called follow on some platforms. So, this podcast, I do it for you guys. I don't make any money on this podcast. I don't take outside advertisers. I just share with you my Grownup Gear, which I hope you do support grownupgear.com. So, helping me grow the show is really all that I ask in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please make sure to check out Kathleen's book, MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur. And, of course, big thanks to Kathleen Celmins for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends, and treating yourself as well. And, most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Authors, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Startup, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanKathleen Celmins, Mindstorming, Authors, Make Money, Brainstorm, Money Tips, Amplified Now
Don’t ask about the weather! And other tips to connect more effectively with The Lost Art of Connecting author Susan McPherson ENCORE
Don’t ask about the weather! And other tips to connect more effectively with The Lost Art of Connecting author Susan McPherson ENCORE
 

Susan McPherson, author of the new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships shares 5 specific tips to connect and intentionally leverage your network of friends and colleagues. 

Susan’s 5 Easy Tips for Daily Connection

#1 - Spend a little bit of time reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

#2 - Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener. For those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila! No more FOMO.

#3 - Ask questions. To truly build connection, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

#4- Let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and more reliable fashion.

#5- Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - Create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it.

#2 - Make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day.

Get your copy of The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Business Relationships today!

Follow Susan!

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Full Transcript:

Susan McPherson: This is a way of leading yourself professionally and personally, to be of support because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey friends, today's show is going to put a smile on your face. This week's financial grownup is my dear friend, Susan McPherson. She is back to share her pandemic project, and that is her new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships. Susan is the founder and CEO of McPherson Strategies, a communications consultancy that focuses on the intersection of brands and social impact. When not in quarantine, Susan's a prominent speaker at top conferences around the globe. She's also a contributor to the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company and Forbes, and you've probably seen or heard her or read her work in the media everywhere from NPR to CNN, to USA today, the New Yorker, New York Magazine and The Los Angeles Times and many more. She is also an angel investor, and if we're going to cut to the chase, she is huge on social media. By the way, fun fact, Susan has run six marathons.

Bobbi Rebell: Her book, for us, could not come at a more perfect time. As I read the book, I got so many ideas of things that I can do to specifically enjoy spending time with people and frankly, being a better friend and being a more effective person in my business and professional relationships and just enjoying it all more. And a reminder, you're going to be tempted to take notes but please focus your attention on the gems that Susan shares. We've got a summary for you right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. Just go to the Financial Grownup Podcast dropdown menu and when you click on Susan's episode, you'll see that summary, along with all the links you need and below that, a full transcript. Here is Susan McPherson. Susan McPherson, welcome back. You are a financial grownup. We're so happy to have you here again.

Susan McPherson: Bobbi, I couldn't pick a better place to be.

Bobbi Rebell: We are going to be talking about your new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships and what better time than now when we are just on the cusp, I hope, oh please, I hope of getting out of this debacle that has been quarantine, COVID-19 and the last year, right?

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. But I have to say, if anything, over this last year, one thing we all have realized is how much we miss human connection.

Bobbi Rebell: So true, and you are the ultimate connector. I mean, literally so funny because at the beginning of this book, you talk about the fact that some people have called you a human CRM app and that's so true.

Susan McPherson: It is something I have loved all my life so what better than to excel at something that you love doing?

Bobbi Rebell: Well as someone that has personally benefited from your generosity and your graciousness and your giving nature, I can just, first of all, attest to the truth of that. You did bring with you five practical tips for daily connection with colleagues, neighbors, and others in your community and network. That's the formal name, but you know what? Really we're talking about how to reset after everything that's been going on. What's your first tip?

Susan McPherson: Spend a little bit of time now, reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Do some old fashion navel-gazing and think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said, what is your second tip?

Susan McPherson : Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener, and I will say for those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila, no more FOMO.

Bobbi Rebell: I love that, and it reminds me, and we're going to digress just for a moment of part of your book, where you talk about creating rituals, something our mutual friend, Erica Keswin talks about in her latest book, but that could be part of getting that done, of JOMO.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. It doesn't all have to be sitting around, having cocktails. You can gather groups for taking a walk and talk. You can gather groups for a cooking class. Again, we've been doing this in some shape, way or form online, but now you have an opportunity to actually potentially maybe by the summer in small groups, doing it in real life.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, we all can't wait for that. What is your third tip?

Susan McPherson: Well, and this is a big component of the book and it's ask. Ask questions. To truly build connection, first, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

Bobbi Rebell: And one underlying theme in your book, by the way, is the importance of curiosity.

Susan McPherson: Yes. And to me, it's a drug and a positive drug because it is curiosity that leads you to the path to understand and appreciate people for where they are and see people, and most importantly, that curiosity helps you then to be able to follow up and be supportive.

Bobbi Rebell: Which is another big theme in your book, and that brings us to your fourth tip.

Susan McPherson: Yes, well, it's important of course, to ask, but we won't be successful at asking if we don't know how to listen. So number four is, let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and probably more reliable fashion.

Bobbi Rebell: That really is everything, and so let's talk about following up and let's get to your fifth tip.

Susan McPherson: My fifth tip is essentially that. Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective. I want to just caveat all of this, Bobbi, this isn't about putting everyone else before you, but this is a way of leading yourself, professionally and personally, to be of support, because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, and you know this Bobbi, you support so many women and men and probably children. That notion, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: That reminds me of some advice that your father gave you growing up that really still resonates with you and really hit home for me.

Susan McPherson: Yes, and that was to always ask first how you can be of help, before stepping up and doing.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah and what would be an example of how someone could put that into, I mean, what I love about this book also is it's so specific and practical, give us some examples first of that, of how someone would put that into their life. Then I'm going to try to squeeze it in one more question before we wrap.

Susan McPherson: Just a week ago, a dear friend of mine introduced me to a lovely woman who is trying to expand her portfolio. She and I had a 30 minute conversation, literally an hour after a conversation, I was able to introduce her to the executive director of an organization whose board I serve on, and literally the next day, she had an opportunity to actually lead a workshop for that organization. So that all happened within 24 hours. I didn't ask for anything in return. Having the conversation with this wonderful woman named Natalie, after that conversation, I was so impressed that I introduced her, again to the executive director of a board whose organization I serve on and was able to facilitate an opportunity for her. That was a perfect example of how it wasn't a huge lift on my part yet it enormously helped Natalie and it also helped the organization for which the board I serve on.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely, and it also goes to the fact that we get so busy in our lives, that we sometimes go through phases where we feel like we have to say no to even have time to breathe, and then you have to balance that, because you also have some good advice, you say, "Always take the meeting." Tell us more about that and why that is so important.

Susan McPherson: Well, I have the proof in the pudding for that, and that is, my company is now eight years old and seven years in, I realized that 98% of our business had been inbound, which is pretty remarkable for a consulting firm. I realized that in my twenties and thirties, all those meetings I took, that were yes, challenging at times because of course I was busy, those people came back 20, 30 years later, and it wasn't like when I was 25, I was saying, "Oh, I'm going to be calling on you in 2020 when I have a company, to see if you'll buy services from me." It was not even a glimmer in my brain. So every single person we meet is a conduit to something else, to someone else, to something new, to learn something about ourselves, and if we don't open those doors and we don't take those meetings, we are missing tremendous opportunities. I fervently believe that, and I live that every day.

Bobbi Rebell: It's so true. So many major things in my life have happened by almost chance meetings, little meetings that you didn't think were going to be meaningful, and then they do end up having a huge impact sometimes right then, as in the case you described earlier and sometimes not for years later, and that's also important. They're true friendships. The final thing I wanted to just touch on is you talk about expressing gratitude and that's something that sometimes gets lost in the hustle and bustle. I've certainly been guilty of not always properly thanking everyone that's done amazing things for me. It's tough. We get so busy and so distracted and are just keeping up with the world, certainly as we get back into, hopefully some sense of normalcy now. Talk to me more about expressing gratitude and specific ways that people can do that.

Susan McPherson : Don't overthink it. Sometimes just a quick phone call, a quick text, a DM, shining a light on socials, showcasing someone else. Those are all very immediate, quick and simple and easy. You don't have to go so far as sending flowers or sending cookies, although that's certainly a wonderful thing to do, but whatever is going to be the most expedient way, sometimes, is the best way, because that's the way it'll get done. But I think it's important to plan one bit of gratitude, every single day, and that includes gratitude for yourself.

Bobbi Rebell: And as you mentioned earlier, it's important to give, but it's also important to be practical and also look out for yourself.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely.

Bobbi Rebell: Susan, this has been so wonderful. Tell us more about where people can find out more about you. We know your book is going to be on sale, literally everywhere. So I hope people will pick it up and continue to get all of these incredible gems. It is very readable. I will tell you that.

Susan McPherson: Aww.

Bobbi Rebell: It's precise, specific, practical in all the best ways, and yet it has the warmth of your personality in it. Where can people follow up with you, once they get the book?

Susan McPherson: First of all, I am glowing. Thank you so much. Hearing that from you means the world to me, Bobbi. I have so much respect for you personally, professionally. Thank you. You can find me at my company's website, McPStrategies.com. I'm on all the social platforms with the name @SusanMcP1 and of course the book can be purchased at your local bookstores or any of the major online booksellers, and I am grateful for you to give it a shot.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Susan McPherson: Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: All right, guys, that was an awesome interview. Here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one, create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it, but you get the idea and by the way, feel free to send me your suggestions for how I can implement Susan's methodology for this, but we're going to go with the phone for now.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two, make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day. So I want to ask you guys, what little things make big impacts on your days? DM me on Instagram, @BobbiRebell1, I would love more ideas. And while you're at it, help me give away some incredible books.

Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com, and if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

 
Advice, Authors, Career, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup Guides, Productivity, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanSusan McPherson, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Business Relationships, JOMO, serial connector, sustainability expert
Money Tips on how to buy an online business with entrepreneur Tonya Rapley
Money Tips on how to buy an online business with entrepreneur Tonya Rapley

Who needs a start-up when you can buy your way into a business? My Fab Finance founder Tonya Rapley shares why and how she decided to buy an online business and her tips on what she would and would not do differently.

Tonya-Rapley-Main-Instagram-Club-Loofah-My-Fab-Finance.png

Money Tips On Buying An Online Business

  • Learn the types of questions you should ask before buying a business.

  • Learn how Tonya increased the average order value and how you can do the same.

  • Learn what kind of things you can do in the beginning to prepare for the growth that comes later.

  • Why it’s so important to have a marketing strategy for your business.



Follow Tonya!


Follow Club Loofah!


Follow My Fab Finance!


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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Tonya Rapley:
They were taking a significant loss. They were selling these loofahs for 4.99 and doing free shipping. Ridiculous.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hi, friends. Okay, we all know starting a business is not easy, but the truth is you don't have to start a business to be a business owner. There's a whole lot of options out there if you want to buy your way in. But there's a lot you need to know before you get started, and we're going to share some of the secrets that you need to know.

Bobbi Rebell:
My guest today is Tonya Rapley. You may know her as the co-host of one of the shows we featured in our summer watch party, Going From Broke. We were a little obsessed with it. Anyway, it's executive produced by Ashton Kutcher. Check it out on the Crackle channel. Tonya is also the founder of My Fab Finance and the author of The Money Manual. She is a big deal, guys. She's been featured everywhere from Vogue, Good Morning America, and The Today Show. But what you probably don't know is that she's also a holistic wellness business owner. In 2019 Tonya purchased Club Loofah, an inclusive self-care brand focused on inspiring and supporting regenerative practices for all. She mentioned this to me in passing recently, so I roped her into a podcast interview to tell us more about buying a business and basically how it all works. It's really interesting, guys. Here is Tonya Rapley.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tonya Rapley, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you. I'm excited.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so excited to have you. Long time overdue. I loved having you in my book and now here. You are the founder of My Fab Finance, which has an incredible community as well. You're host of Going From Broke, which was one of my favorite shows that I caught up on this summer. We highlighted it in our summer watch series. You have the 30-day shift program. And what we're going to talk about is your new online business, Club Loofah. Welcome, welcome.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you so much. It sounds like I do so many things, and I do.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many things, and wife and mother and all the things. Before we get into your online business, tell us a little bit about My Fab Finance.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, I mean, My Fab Finance, I started in 2013. It was essentially my accountability partner, as I decided that I was tired of being inconvenienced by being financially insecure. My goal at the time was to improve my credit score so that I could get my own apartment in New York City and hopefully get free clothes from Macy's. I just wanted free clothes. I was like, "Maybe they'll see what I'm doing and send me free clothes."

Bobbi Rebell:
Free clothes, always a noble cause.

Tonya Rapley:
You know, you know. And here we are, I guess. Well, I've been a full-time entrepreneur. I was able to transition into doing My Fab Finance full-time in 2015. We've created so many different elements of My Fab Finance and different iterations, but today our goal is to create a safe space for women to talk about money, as well as we have a mission of helping 1000 people achieve at least one financial goal that they're proud of.

Bobbi Rebell:
When we were doing our interview for my book, which is going to come out in the spring, which, guys, I'll talk about another time, you kind of mentioned, "Oh, by the way, yeah, I bought an online business." And so I wanted to bring you on the podcast, because you mentioned this oh so casually, like, "I'm doing 100 things, and by the way, I bought an online business," and then you move on to something else. I need to know about this. So a lot of people, they're home during this extended version, unfortunately, this extended pandemic that's so much longer than we thought we would be home. Of course it's good to start an online business, but not everyone has to start from scratch. Sometimes if you have the resources you could actually buy something and give yourself a jumpstart. And it sounds like that's what you did. So tell us about this decision to buy an online business and what you did. What is it?

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. So as a financial educator, I realized that a lot of my income was service-based. It was based on my ability to show up to coach my audience and everything else, and I wanted something that was easier to scale. That's how I thought about it before I bought the business, easier to scale. I knew I did not want to come up with a new concept, create a new brand and everything else. And so my sister, who had just closed her Shopify store, asked me... She said, "I know you're interested in potentially purchasing another business. Have you checked out the Shopify exchange?" And I hadn't heard of it, but I went to check it out immediately. And she then sent me this company, Club Loofah. And she just typed, "I think that you could really do something with this. It's a great concept."

Tonya Rapley:
And so I started to look into it more, and I thought to myself, "Wow, this is a really good concept." It is essentially a bath subscription business, a bath tool subscription business, because most people don't realize that you're supposed to replace your loofah every three to four weeks. Your loofah, your sponge, whatever it is you use in a bathroom, before it starts smelling, before it starts crumbling, you're to replace it. So we reached out to the owner, and he was about to actually close the doors, because he hadn't had any bites or anyone that had... He had a few conversations, but no one that was really serious. [inaudible 00:06:09], "Hey, the money's in escrow. Let's do this." So we ended up buying the business from him. He was actually based in Riverside, California at that time. We were living in Los Angeles, so we drove up to Riverside with a U-Haul, got all the inventory that he had on him-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, right, so you actually have to take inventory, because I have-

Tonya Rapley:
It is not drop shipping. Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
I do drop shipping for my grownup gear.

Tonya Rapley:
It is not drop shipping. We do not have a fulfillment center just right now. And so that's the thing. We got the items from them. We just started learning the e-commerce business when it came to loofahs. When we purchased the company, one of the things that was attractive to me was that it already had subscribers. It was a subscription business. So the day that we purchased the company, they had new orders, because it billed monthly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, why was he selling it? Presumably... I would always be suspicious. If someone's selling a business, you kind of go, "Well, why?" Because maybe if it's a good business, why would he sell it? So I would be wondering, what are the red flags?

Tonya Rapley:
So the reason he was selling it actually was because he inherited the business from the previous owner. So there was a previous owner who started the business for her daughters because she wanted to teach her daughters entrepreneurship. Then her daughters lost interest in it, and she didn't have the capacity to manage it, but he was already onboard as the marketing officer, the chief marketing officer, so he bought it. He believed in the business, thought it was a good company. He took it over. But then his father passed away, and he decided that he didn't want to do things just because anymore. He wanted to live a more purpose-focused life.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I have not seen this site before you, but it has a really nice editorial focus, and that's something that that is one of your strengths. Tell us more about the changes that you then brought in.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. Thank you very much, because when I bought the company, it was very fun and kitschy, and one of the things we realized was, if we're going to compete with the Targets... And we're not going to compete with Target and Amazon. We cannot drive our prices low enough to compete with them, so we have to appeal to a different demographic, someone who value self-care, who is willing to invest in their self-care and what's a higher end feeling product. And so we rebranded to go for a higher end. And so now the products that we're rolling out are more luxury-focused, or they're items that you can't find in your drug store. That was very intentional. And we wanted to clean it up a little bit. The company was based in California, so it was very beachy, Hollister... Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
When you look back, what would you have done differently? Are there questions you would have asked that you would advise people that are looking to buy an online business that's already somewhat established... What should they go in knowing that you wish you knew?

Tonya Rapley:
Absolutely. So when I bought the company, [inaudible 00:08:55], "Okay, it's bringing in revenue. You have XYZ subscribers. Cool. All right. Yeah, let's do this." Now I would definitely ask about their average order value, because the average order value determines if you can run ads. From my perspective, I was thinking, "All right, we're going to buy this company, and we're going to run ads, and we're just going to blow this out the water." But in order for ads to make sense, your average order value needs to be above what your minimum ad spend is going to be, or what it costs to acquire a customer.

Tonya Rapley:
They were taking a significant loss. They were selling these loofahs for 4.99 and doing free shipping. Ridiculous. So one of the things we did when I came in was changed the shipping model. We now charge 2.99 for shipping. And then we also increased the price point on some of the items. We allow the loofah, the classic loofah, to be the loss leader, but we increased the price points on some of the other items and introduced higher-priced items to the store as well, so that average order value and just the opportunity to bundle products... There wasn't really a strong opportunity to bundle products. So now we're in the final stages of developing a body care line so that you can bundle your body care with your loofah, since it's it's all body care anyway. So that's one of the questions I definitely, definitely would have asked, is average order value.

Tonya Rapley:
The retention rate was pretty good. Their retention rate... And that's a question, especially if you're buying a subscription business. How long does your average customer stay around? And do you have any existing customer service infrastructure in place? Because he was handling customer service inquiries. I found very early that I hated that aspect of the business, and we ended up hiring someone, but it would have been nice if there was somebody that came along with the company. So any personnel that would come that know the business outside of us going and doing training with you is another question that I probably would have asked. Those are the two big things we had to change, was... The average order value was a killer early on, because the company was basically losing money.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you really didn't know that when you bought it.

Tonya Rapley:
No, I didn't, and I should have asked for stronger financials, but I think that [inaudible 00:10:55] I was like, "It's a subscription business. How bad could it be? It's not to the point where they're searching for customers every month. I bought the customers with the business. How bad could it be?" Yeah, I didn't do the math on that one, Bobbi. I didn't think like, "Okay, this is a 4.99 loofah, and they're charging nothing. Free shipping. How much is shipping?" But we addressed that, and within the first year we increase the average order value I think by like 32%.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you do that?

Tonya Rapley:
We introduced a candle line, so most people were buying candles. And our candles are not... They're high-quality soy candles. Our candles were about 20... I think $28 for a candle. And so that definitely drives up, if you're buying a 4.99 loofah and a $28 candle. We introduced two higher end products, the ayate washcloth, and we actually just dropped our Japanese smoothing brush. So those aren't terribly expensive, but they're 10.99 and 11.99. And then we started adding bundle options. So when people checked out, we offer the upsell of a shower hook for people who don't have any hooks in their shower, so we offer that upsell. And then we also invited people to buy our family bundle, which was essentially four loofahs instead of one, just in case it's a family of four, and quite a few people decided to do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, you mentioned you wanted something that you could scale. Are you still bundling at home? Who is packaging this stuff up? You said you had no fulfillment center.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, so we still have a fulfillment manager. We do have a storage facility where we keep the things, and we have a facility manager, our fulfillment manager. So we are very hands-on still in that process. I don't pack the loofahs anymore, my husband doesn't, but our fulfillment manager does. And she's great. She's awesome. And that's something we had to look at when we were considering if it makes sense for us to place our products in a fulfillment center, which [inaudible 00:12:42] take about $2.80 to $3 per product, and our average order value just could not sustain that yet.

Tonya Rapley:
So maybe when we roll out the body care line... Our body care line is sulfate-free, microbiome friendly, and we've been really intentional about the body cream that we're creating. And we have a non-abrasive exfoliant that we're also rolling out a non-abrasive skin exfoliant, so it's papaya extract and natural fruit extract to help with skin turnover and cell turnover. So I think that once we roll those out, we might be in the zone of being able to send it to a fulfillment center, but maybe not. We have to see how our fulfillment manager feels, because we'll keep those profit margins... We'll grow them as long as we can, and we'll minimize the money that we're spending as much as we can.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I am impressed, as someone that started a small online business during the pandemic. The amount of detail that you're going into is incredible. You know all of your numbers. What is your best advice, before we wrap up, for people that are considering buying an online business? You went basically to the Shopify exchange, and you can look for whoever's selling a Shopify site. Is that what you advise? And what else?

Tonya Rapley:
It's work. It's work. And decide what works for you, drop shipping, or whether you're going to do the order fulfillment yourself. But you also have to ask yourself, "Do I have the endurance to grow this?" Because I think a lot of times we hear about these overnight successes when it comes to shop owners. They get placed in Oprah's most favorite things list and everything else. But what happens if it doesn't? What is your marketing strategy? My main advice would be, have a sound marketing strategy for how you're going to acquire customers and keep your customers, because if you don't have customers, you don't have a business.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true and such good advice. Okay. We know everyone needs to go to Club Loofah for sure. Where else can people find you and find out more about you and My Fab Finance and the community there? And also you have a 30 day shift program.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. Yeah, because I don't have enough things going on, right, Bobbi?

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:14:44]. You need more.

Tonya Rapley:
So I decided to launch a personal coaching company, because a lot of women who didn't fall into the scope of work we do at My Fab Finance but wanted to know more about, "How do I confidently take on my next life phase?" And so I created a program, 30 day shift, for women who are looking to powerfully move into the direction of their next life shift. So that's at my personal platform. It's Tonya, T-O-N-Y-A, .rapley, or tonyarapley.com. If you go to that website, it actually has all of my companies. So it has a link to My Fab Finance. It has the link to Club Loofah. But if you're interested in Club Loofah, that website is actually loofah.club, so L-O-O-F-A-H.club.

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't know that. That's another question though. You got to get the URL there. That's another thing you got to be asking. Wow.

Tonya Rapley:
Clubloofah.com is not available. And one of the things I wanted to do was make sure that we were in it for the long haul before I invested in buying the domain from someone else. Actually, after this interview, we're finally finalizing our trademark application, because the business was not trademarked, or they abandoned their previous trademark, so we're trademarking. So now that we've been in it for almost two years now, I'm in a phase like, "Okay, let's do all the things that we need to do and probably should have done." So I'm going to... Hopefully in the next year clubloofah.com will be ours. I'm like, "Who had a Club Loofah other than us?" I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they're just squatting on the name.

Tonya Rapley:
They're squatting, waiting for someone like me to come buy it from them. Because that's a big business too. Think about it. Buying and selling domains is actually a big business.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is a big business. And when I named Grownup Gear Grownup Gear, I looked very carefully at what was available before I named a company. So that's also something to really look at, whether you start a company or buy a company. Look at the domain names that the company owns, because that's really important.

Tonya Rapley:
That is. That is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tonya, thank you so much. Oh, you didn't say your socials.

Tonya Rapley:
Oh. So My Fab Finance, that's M-Y-F-A-Bfinance.com. And then Tonya Rapley, so that's T-O-N-Y-A.rapley. And then Club Loofah is Club Loofah, C-L-U-B L-O-O-F-A-H.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. So you have that on social media.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank goodness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank goodness.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, we have that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Good. Thanks so much.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, there was a lot there, so much good stuff. I want to remind everyone full transcripts are available. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com. Go to the podcast section. You'll get the show notes and the transcripts.

Bobbi Rebell:
My take here is that whether you're going to start a business or you're going to buy a business, you need to know that it's going to be a lot of work, probably more than you expect, probably lots of surprises, and probably going to cost you a lot more than that purchase price. Yes, Tonya had customers. They were subscription-based. That's all good. But it wasn't a profitable business, and then she had to deal with that. You need a lot of, frankly, capital runway to manage a business when you're dealing with it initially and you don't really know what's coming at you. So make sure you ask all the questions you need to ask and that you're happy with the answers. The good news with buying a business is you do kind of get a headstart. She already had customers. That's great. You start in the middle. You have a concept there. But you also have challenges that were created by someone else, and you may not be aware of all of them, and they come at you a lot faster because you're already sort of in the middle. Make sure you're ready.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow or subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, reviews are so appreciated. I read every one, and they mean the world to me. Let me know what topics you want me to cover. DM me. And please follow me also on Instagram at bobbirebell1. And go to my website if you want to get on my newsletter list. Just as I said, bobbirebell.com. Pretty simple, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please, support Tonya. She is amazing. Check out Club Loofah. Follow it on all the socials. And, of course, My Fab Finance and Tonya Rapley as well. Say thanks to Tonya for sharing her journey and for helping us all be financial grownups

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of 100s of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking out fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Authors, Business, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Health + Fitness, Money, Reality TV stars, Role Models, Startup, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanClub Loofah, My Fab Finance, Tonya Rapley, Startup, Business, Online Business, Marketing, Loofah
Summer Watch Party: Growing Belushi feat. Special guest Neil Kaufman
Summer Watch Party: Growing Belushi feat. Special guest Neil Kaufman

Actor Jim Belushi invites viewers to his south Oregon Cannabis farm to learn about his latest business ventures and his passion for the plant’s medicinal healing powers. Bobbi and her husband Neil share why they were mesmerized by this edu-tainment offering from Discovery +. 

Summer-Watch-Party-Growing-Belushi-Instagram-with-Neil-Kaufman .png

A Little About The Show

Well, I got to tell you for those of you that love Breaking Bad and you love Narcos and Ozark, this will round out your drug genre TV addiction. Growing Belushi stars... He's a favorite actor of mine, Jim Belushi. He invites us into his adventures on his cannabis farm in Eagle Point, Oregon on the banks of the roaring Rogue River. We see him learning on the fly, and sometimes through some hard challenges and failures, about farming and general business operations. And he gets into some difficult situations and he learned some pretty harsh lessons about how much, maybe how not so much his brand or his fame is worth when it comes to selling his cannabis. We get front row seats, and we watch him and his family build their business and bring their products to market, which includes several strains like Captain Jack and the Blues Brothers cannabis brand to dispensary shelves. We also get cannabis one-on-one lessons along the way, which I think they're fascinating.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So Jim Belushi, who I think is a good actor, but I'm not a super fan like Neil, but I know who he is. So he refers to himself, he refers to the show, I should say, as edutainment, because during each episode there's sort of these breakouts, kind of like the in the moments that you see on reality shows where he speaks directly to the audience about the cannabis industry and exactly how things work, how things work in the business, but also about the plant and that he's very passionate about the medicinal value of cannabis.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also get, of course, some guest appearances from his celebrity friends, including Dan Akroyd, and that is, of course, giving the show a lot of social media buzz. Their Instagram handle, by the way, @belushisfarm is getting close to a hundred thousand followers as of this recording.

Bobbi Rebell:
So interesting, it's not really a side hustle because it's a real business. I mean, to the point where one of my favorite scenes, there's an intervention and his kid is like, "I'm worried about this business, Dad, because I'm worried"... Not because he's worried about him. He's worried about his inheritance.


Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So, Neil, what is your gut reaction to the show?

Neil Kaufman:
I liked it. I really liked it. It's like watching the profit meets the undercover boss.

Bobbi Rebell:
How many times have you watched it, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
I've seen every episode out there so far, and I've watched them twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
At least twice.

Neil Kaufman:
At least twice so far. I mean, I've only been into it for the last couple of weeks. You got to give me some time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Well, then I fall asleep during all the shows when I watch it for like the second half, you get a lot of half rewatching as I finished the episode I fell asleep during, which is not an insult to the show. That's actually a compliment to the show that I go back to watching it. I just fall asleep during all this stuff. We know that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So you liked it.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you like about it?

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, funny or not funny, it's kind of interesting. I mean, he has the basic problems that we all face, personnel and HR issues. He's got operational issues. I remember in one episode he killed the entire crop because he clearly lacked a little bit of training in how to raise these plants, well, how much sunlight, how much water and he's learning on the fly. What is value? What's market and brand pricing? He's trying to figure out a pricing plan. And there's also local compliance issue. I remember one episode he had to go and test the THC content and his business, it's very tangible. I think it's very relatable to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. This is sort of a millennial moment. There's a point where he has two family members that are millennial. Well, actually I shouldn't pick on millennials. I'm not going to say what generation they are. They might be Gen Z. We don't know, but they are exhibiting stereotypical behaviors of what people perceive millennials as doing, as in like maybe they feel like they need to do something else one day, instead of working, just because they need to have, what would you call it, just a wellness day? What was going on there?

Neil Kaufman:
They were lazy. I think they were slagging off. I mean-

Bobbi Rebell:
Spoken as a Gen X boss, yes.

Neil Kaufman:
That's what I see it as. I mean, personally I would have implemented a fair and balanced staff performance evaluation and maybe an incentive-based bonus plan over there, or...

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, he doesn't have that kind of structure at this point yet. Well, like he goes to sell it and he thinks because he's Jim Belushi, he can sell it for how many times what the product... I mean he just assigned a random value based on his name, which I thought it was very endearing, frankly. I mean, he really played it for laughs so we don't know. Of course, it's a reality show that's somewhat structured. So we don't really know how much is legit and how much is sort of creating storylines, but it was a definite reality check, pun intended, for Mr. Belushi. That just because he's famous doesn't mean people will pay 10 times as much for his product. They'll pay a little more, but maybe not as much more as he thought.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah. You know, the market is what it is. He's got to differentiate that brand in the marketplace. And I think if he wants to get a little bit higher price, he's got to show a little bit, maybe higher quality. You know, I take it back to like an analogy back to even Walter White's Blue Magic, it had to prove itself in the marketplace before it got market demand.

Bobbi Rebell:
That was a Breaking Bad reference, for anyone that didn't catch that.

Neil Kaufman:
Oh, I'm sorry. I should have referenced that right from the get-go. But I mean the point being, I mean, if you're going to sell something that's commoditized, you have to differentiate in some way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about the licensing thing, what do you think about that? So there's a whole bit going back to the idea of the money tips and the business lessons from this, there is a storyline that involves him licensing the Blues Brothers brand, which it was not his brand. It was his older brother's brand with Dan Akroyd.

Neil Kaufman:
It's fair, but I think it was actually really, really smart business sense on his behalf. It takes companies so long and they spend years developing and cultivating their brands. And here he is latching onto a brand, using it as an accelerator to the market, I think it was really a smart move on his behalf.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and also it wasn't just handed to him.

Neil Kaufman:
No doubt, but I think that he's been performing with that band for sometime now, stepping in almost like John Goodman steps in every now and then on the Blues Brothers to perform with them. He's part of that. I think it's a whole brand, which he is already a part of.

Bobbi Rebell:
He goes to South America, obsessed with finding the perfect seeds. What do you think?

Neil Kaufman:
Oh my god. I got to tell you, I cringed a little bit of that because it was painful to watch. Not painful to watch because it was... He finds the seeds, he loses the seeds, and he has to find the seeds again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, no. His employee lost the seeds.

Neil Kaufman:
Well, he has to own that. It's his responsibility. It's his company, so he lost the seeds.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, that's a thing. So when you have a company, you hire employees to do things. When the employees don't do their job, ultimately cost the company, right?

Neil Kaufman:
I thought that was a good lesson there. But it was kind of overshadowed by his constant obsession over Pablo Escobar.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which, of course, got us into watching Narcos-

Neil Kaufman:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
... which we're now watching.

Neil Kaufman:
I think if he was going to look for a marijuana mogul, if you want to call it that, there's one closer to shore. You've got people like Martha Stewart, who's got a cannabis brand with Snoop Dogg these days.

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, that's how mainstream this stuff has become. Martha can get you high with her products in the morning, and then she can feed your munchies at night with her moist oatmeal cookies to satisfy all your cravings. And by the way, I have to add in it's a genius vertical market product integration. She's got you getting high and then filling the food crave at the end. It's genius.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So what do you see as the big money lessons, the big business lessons? For those of you who don't know, you are a consultant for a living, so you advise people on how to improve their businesses, broadly speaking. That's a way big generalization of what you do, but what would your advice be to Mr. Belushi?

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, I gave Neil some questions in advance. This is an on-the-fly question. Let's see how Neil does.

Neil Kaufman:
I have to tell you the one big takeaway I got from looking at the nephew and the other relatives that work there is I think there's a big lesson there, which is never go into business with close friends and family. I think it's just too hard to draw lines, clear lines sometimes. Emotions blur those lines, the logical ones. He knows that this nephew of his is a terrible employee, but he's going to keep him because he's got an emotional attachment. So I think one life lesson here, one huge economic lesson, don't go to business with close friends, because otherwise you can't make those logical decisions.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, do you think that he had a business plan going into this with actual projections of things? I mean, he was way off on pricing of his products, way off.

Neil Kaufman:
I don't know if that was shtick, though, for the camera or really it was just-

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe.

Neil Kaufman:
It may have been. But I think overall I have to give the guy, I would say out of the gate from a business perspective, I think I'd give them a B minus. I think he's up there right out of the gate for being new to this space. He has a growing facility, he's in compliance with local laws and regulations. And he has a backup plan when the first crop went poor, and he's diversifying in products like edibles and vapes and the buds. I think he's doing really well for right out of the gate.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, obviously, having a reality TV show is amazing publicity and if they, well, I should say they renewed it. I think we said that earlier, they did renew it for a second season. So clearly that part is going well, and if you go to their website, you will see they have merch for sale. In that sense, he's got a business plan.

Bobbi Rebell:
What would you do differently if you were there, if you were his business partner?

Neil Kaufman:
I think in advance, I mean, performing some sort of assessment of the types of issues that would come up. Whether or not they're the compliance issues or the strategic pricing issues, I would have put together at least a plan around all of that in advance, kind of architect in advance the issues that he seems to have learned only by mistake along the way. It seems to be he's learning as he's going, as opposed to have planned in advance. It seems to be that he's not executing that plan. He's actually just kind of doing it ad hoc.

Bobbi Rebell:
Next season, we're going to see him putting the product into food. So given that, where do you think he should go with that?

Neil Kaufman:
I like to see him doing some integration, I think, with distributors. So maybe to Whole Foods, those type of organizations that carry CBD products today. I'd like to see how he's going to start almost like a Coca-Cola or anybody else who is bringing a consumer product to market. I like to understand how he's going to be partnering with strategic alliances, like grocery stores, not just dispensaries, but how is he actually getting product broader reach?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I was curious to see, the show is, obviously, focused on just his farm, but this is such a blooming business that I was curious to see who were his rivals out there and to see if there's any sort of gathering of them. There's like a convention for people that are starting up farms and see how he fits in to the industry because I know there's a lot of celebrities that are out there. You mentioned Martha Stewart, but it's definitely something that's very popular, so I'm curious to hear a little bit broader view of the industry.

Bobbi Rebell:
Final takeaway, my love.

Neil Kaufman:
Versatility, agility, flexibility. He's an actor. Look what he's doing right now. I mean, he's becoming a mogul in cannabis production. I think the lesson for everybody is every few years you have to reinvent yourself. I mean, what's state-of-the-art today will be aged years from now? They say that the average turn on technology is every two years now. So I think he's demonstrating someone who's thinking outside the box and doing things that he's never done before, which I think is phenomenal. We should all learn from that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I, literally, agree with everything you just said. I'm just going to say gold star for Neil being an amazing guest.


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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough.

Bobbi Rebell:
I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees and, seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Neil Kaufman:
For those of you that love Breaking Bad, and you love Narcos and Ozark, this will round out your drug genre TV addiction.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard, but together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, my grown-up friends, to the latest installment of our 2021 Financial Grownup Summer Watch Party Series. Okay. You guys know the deal. During COVID, all of us, frankly, not just me, we all had a chance to check out a lot of streaming shows, probably way too many, but there's a lot of undiscovered gems out there that have some really good money lessons. So we are having a Summer Watch Party highlighting some of my personal favorites and some new buzz-worthy shows and, of course, the money tips that we learn from those shows.

Bobbi Rebell:
Joining me for this episode is a guest I have been trying to get on this podcast since it began, the love of my life and someone I spend way too much time watching streaming TV shows with, Mr. Neil Kaufman, my husband, guys. Welcome, Neil.

Neil Kaufman:
Thank you, Bobbi. I am so excited about this episode tonight. I'm so excited.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes. Well, I'm so impressed because you haven't been on yet. It's been a few years, and you have asked frequently, and I was a little afraid you wouldn't do your homework, but you have piles of paper there. You're actually worried about all the rustling papers because you did your homework today. So everyone's in for a real treat because Neil is taking this very seriously.

Neil Kaufman:
I have OCD. For the listeners, I have OCD, and so I obsess over everything.

Bobbi Rebell:
In the best way, though, in the best way, and we're definitely going to get the dirt on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
So this week's show, I made a pun, Neil, because I said dirt, and we're going to talk about farm, get it? It's Growing Belushi, which is a reality TV show on Discovery Plus. It's only a three-episode season so that's definitely something we can all manage to drop in August of 2020. We only discovered this very recently, but it was renewed for a second season already. As is always the case, I got to warn you guys, there are going to be some spoilers here, but it's so worth it. So stay with us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Neil, tell us a little bit about the show.

Neil Kaufman:
Well, I got to tell you for those of you that love Breaking Bad and you love Narcos and Ozark, this will round out your drug genre TV addiction. Growing Belushi stars... He's a favorite actor of mine, Jim Belushi. He invites us into his adventures on his cannabis farm in Eagle Point, Oregon on the banks of the roaring Rogue River. We see him learning on the fly, and sometimes through some hard challenges and failures, about farming and general business operations. And he gets into some difficult situations and he learned some pretty harsh lessons about how much, maybe how not so much his brand or his fame is worth when it comes to selling his cannabis. We get front row seats, and we watch him and his family build their business and bring their products to market, which includes several strains like Captain Jack and the Blues Brothers cannabis brand to dispensary shelves. We also get cannabis one-on-one lessons along the way, which I think they're fascinating.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So Jim Belushi, who I think is a good actor, but I'm not a super fan like Neil, but I know who he is. So he refers to himself, he refers to the show, I should say, as edutainment, because during each episode there's sort of these breakouts, kind of like the in the moments that you see on reality shows where he speaks directly to the audience about the cannabis industry and exactly how things work, how things work in the business, but also about the plant and that he's very passionate about the medicinal value of cannabis.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also get, of course, some guest appearances from his celebrity friends, including Dan Akroyd, and that is, of course, giving the show a lot of social media buzz. Their Instagram handle, by the way, @belushisfarm is getting close to a hundred thousand followers as of this recording.

Bobbi Rebell:
So interesting, it's not really a side hustle because it's a real business. I mean, to the point where one of my favorite scenes, there's an intervention and his kid is like, "I'm worried about this business, Dad, because I'm worried"... Not because he's worried about him. He's worried about his inheritance.

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So, Neil, what is your gut reaction to the show?

Neil Kaufman:
I liked it. I really liked it. It's like watching the profit meets the undercover boss.

Bobbi Rebell:
How many times have you watched it, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
I've seen every episode out there so far, and I've watched them twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
At least twice.

Neil Kaufman:
At least twice so far. I mean, I've only been into it for the last couple of weeks. You got to give me some time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Well, then I fall asleep during all the shows when I watch it for like the second half, you get a lot of half rewatching as I finished the episode I fell asleep during, which is not an insult to the show. That's actually a compliment to the show that I go back to watching it. I just fall asleep during all this stuff. We know that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So you liked it.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you like about it?

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, funny or not funny, it's kind of interesting. I mean, he has the basic problems that we all face, personnel and HR issues. He's got operational issues. I remember in one episode he killed the entire crop because he clearly lacked a little bit of training in how to raise these plants, well, how much sunlight, how much water and he's learning on the fly. What is value? What's market and brand pricing? He's trying to figure out a pricing plan. And there's also local compliance issue. I remember one episode he had to go and test the THC content and his business, it's very tangible. I think it's very relatable to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. This is sort of a millennial moment. There's a point where he has two family members that are millennial. Well, actually I shouldn't pick on millennials. I'm not going to say what generation they are. They might be Gen Z. We don't know, but they are exhibiting stereotypical behaviors of what people perceive millennials as doing, as in like maybe they feel like they need to do something else one day, instead of working, just because they need to have, what would you call it, just a wellness day? What was going on there?

Neil Kaufman:
They were lazy. I think they were slagging off. I mean-

Bobbi Rebell:
Spoken as a Gen X boss, yes.

Neil Kaufman:
That's what I see it as. I mean, personally I would have implemented a fair and balanced staff performance evaluation and maybe an incentive-based bonus plan over there, or...

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, he doesn't have that kind of structure at this point yet. Well, like he goes to sell it and he thinks because he's Jim Belushi, he can sell it for how many times what the product... I mean he just assigned a random value based on his name, which I thought it was very endearing, frankly. I mean, he really played it for laughs so we don't know. Of course, it's a reality show that's somewhat structured. So we don't really know how much is legit and how much is sort of creating storylines, but it was a definite reality check, pun intended, for Mr. Belushi. That just because he's famous doesn't mean people will pay 10 times as much for his product. They'll pay a little more, but maybe not as much more as he thought.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah. You know, the market is what it is. He's got to differentiate that brand in the marketplace. And I think if he wants to get a little bit higher price, he's got to show a little bit, maybe higher quality. You know, I take it back to like an analogy back to even Walter White's Blue Magic, it had to prove itself in the marketplace before it got market demand.

Bobbi Rebell:
That was a Breaking Bad reference, for anyone that didn't catch that.

Neil Kaufman:
Oh, I'm sorry. I should have referenced that right from the get-go. But I mean the point being, I mean, if you're going to sell something that's commoditized, you have to differentiate in some way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about the licensing thing, what do you think about that? So there's a whole bit going back to the idea of the money tips and the business lessons from this, there is a storyline that involves him licensing the Blues Brothers brand, which it was not his brand. It was his older brother's brand with Dan Akroyd.

Neil Kaufman:
It's fair, but I think it was actually really, really smart business sense on his behalf. It takes companies so long and they spend years developing and cultivating their brands. And here he is latching onto a brand, using it as an accelerator to the market, I think it was really a smart move on his behalf.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and also it wasn't just handed to him.

Neil Kaufman:
No doubt, but I think that he's been performing with that band for sometime now, stepping in almost like John Goodman steps in every now and then on the Blues Brothers to perform with them. He's part of that. I think it's a whole brand, which he is already a part of.

Bobbi Rebell:
He goes to South America, obsessed with finding the perfect seeds. What do you think?

Neil Kaufman:
Oh my god. I got to tell you, I cringed a little bit of that because it was painful to watch. Not painful to watch because it was... He finds the seeds, he loses the seeds, and he has to find the seeds again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, no. His employee lost the seeds.

Neil Kaufman:
Well, he has to own that. It's his responsibility. It's his company, so he lost the seeds.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, that's a thing. So when you have a company, you hire employees to do things. When the employees don't do their job, ultimately cost the company, right?

Neil Kaufman:
I thought that was a good lesson there. But it was kind of overshadowed by his constant obsession over Pablo Escobar.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which, of course, got us into watching Narcos-

Neil Kaufman:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
... which we're now watching.

Neil Kaufman:
I think if he was going to look for a marijuana mogul, if you want to call it that, there's one closer to shore. You've got people like Martha Stewart, who's got a cannabis brand with Snoop Dogg these days.

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, that's how mainstream this stuff has become. Martha can get you high with her products in the morning, and then she can feed your munchies at night with her moist oatmeal cookies to satisfy all your cravings. And by the way, I have to add in it's a genius vertical market product integration. She's got you getting high and then filling the food crave at the end. It's genius.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So what do you see as the big money lessons, the big business lessons? For those of you who don't know, you are a consultant for a living, so you advise people on how to improve their businesses, broadly speaking. That's a way big generalization of what you do, but what would your advice be to Mr. Belushi?

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, I gave Neil some questions in advance. This is an on-the-fly question. Let's see how Neil does.

Neil Kaufman:
I have to tell you the one big takeaway I got from looking at the nephew and the other relatives that work there is I think there's a big lesson there, which is never go into business with close friends and family. I think it's just too hard to draw lines, clear lines sometimes. Emotions blur those lines, the logical ones. He knows that this nephew of his is a terrible employee, but he's going to keep him because he's got an emotional attachment. So I think one life lesson here, one huge economic lesson, don't go to business with close friends, because otherwise you can't make those logical decisions.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, do you think that he had a business plan going into this with actual projections of things? I mean, he was way off on pricing of his products, way off.

Neil Kaufman:
I don't know if that was shtick, though, for the camera or really it was just-

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe.

Neil Kaufman:
It may have been. But I think overall I have to give the guy, I would say out of the gate from a business perspective, I think I'd give them a B minus. I think he's up there right out of the gate for being new to this space. He has a growing facility, he's in compliance with local laws and regulations. And he has a backup plan when the first crop went poor, and he's diversifying in products like edibles and vapes and the buds. I think he's doing really well for right out of the gate.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, obviously, having a reality TV show is amazing publicity and if they, well, I should say they renewed it. I think we said that earlier, they did renew it for a second season. So clearly that part is going well, and if you go to their website, you will see they have merch for sale. In that sense, he's got a business plan.

Bobbi Rebell:
What would you do differently if you were there, if you were his business partner?

Neil Kaufman:
I think in advance, I mean, performing some sort of assessment of the types of issues that would come up. Whether or not they're the compliance issues or the strategic pricing issues, I would have put together at least a plan around all of that in advance, kind of architect in advance the issues that he seems to have learned only by mistake along the way. It seems to be he's learning as he's going, as opposed to have planned in advance. It seems to be that he's not executing that plan. He's actually just kind of doing it ad hoc.

Bobbi Rebell:
Next season, we're going to see him putting the product into food. So given that, where do you think he should go with that?

Neil Kaufman:
I like to see him doing some integration, I think, with distributors. So maybe to Whole Foods, those type of organizations that carry CBD products today. I'd like to see how he's going to start almost like a Coca-Cola or anybody else who is bringing a consumer product to market. I like to understand how he's going to be partnering with strategic alliances, like grocery stores, not just dispensaries, but how is he actually getting product broader reach?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I was curious to see, the show is, obviously, focused on just his farm, but this is such a blooming business that I was curious to see who were his rivals out there and to see if there's any sort of gathering of them. There's like a convention for people that are starting up farms and see how he fits in to the industry because I know there's a lot of celebrities that are out there. You mentioned Martha Stewart, but it's definitely something that's very popular, so I'm curious to hear a little bit broader view of the industry.

Bobbi Rebell:
Final takeaway, my love.

Neil Kaufman:
Versatility, agility, flexibility. He's an actor. Look what he's doing right now. I mean, he's becoming a mogul in cannabis production. I think the lesson for everybody is every few years you have to reinvent yourself. I mean, what's state-of-the-art today will be aged years from now? They say that the average turn on technology is every two years now. So I think he's demonstrating someone who's thinking outside the box and doing things that he's never done before, which I think is phenomenal. We should all learn from that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I, literally, agree with everything you just said. I'm just going to say gold star for Neil being an amazing guest. I think that you nailed it and maybe you'll come back again. I don't know. Everyone, write in.

Neil Kaufman:
I would say that if Jim Belushi is listening, I want him to know that I did follow him on Instagram today so he have plus one to the numbers and I'm a big fan, both acting and what he's doing today. I think bravo, kudos to him. I think he's doing phenomenal.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. Like I said, I'm just going to say ditto to that. I love the show. It was totally worth watching. Do not be insulted that I fell asleep, Mr. Belushi, because I do that all the time. But I did wake up and re-watch it over again, which is the ultimate compliment from me, trust me. Definitely worth watching. I can't wait for next season, and maybe we'll reach out to the team over at Growing Belushi and see if we can get him on when the new season comes out. So, come on to the show, Jim.

Neil Kaufman:
I think maybe we should do a product review next time so we should sample and then do a product review. I think that would be appropriate.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We'll figure out what is compliant within the law. I don't know what the law is on that, but maybe we need to take a family field trip to Oregon. I don't know.

Neil Kaufman:
I'm in.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think that might be an order.

Neil Kaufman:
I'm in. I'm in.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Thank you, Neil, love of my life, for joining us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Everyone else, thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please spread the love. Tell a friend. DM me on Insta @bobbirebell1. Let me know if you want Neil back. Let me know if you want us to try to get Jim Belushi on when his second season of Growing Belushi comes on. And, of course, let me know what else you want to hear on the podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you all. Neil, thanks for helping everyone be financial grownups.

Neil Kaufman:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Weil. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

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How to be Less Stressed Out About Money with YNAB’s Jesse Mecham
How to be Less Stressed Out About Money with YNAB’s Jesse Mecham

Jesse Mecham, found of You Need a Budget joins us with a fantastic list of ways we can be a lot less stressed out about money, communicate better about money with out loved ones, and in the end feel and be more in control of our finances. 

Jesse’s Money Tips



Bobbi Rebell:
You are the founder, CEO, and creator, creative mind, I should say, behind You Need a Budget, affectionately known by many as YNAB. Congratulations on all the success of this product, and really, it's more than a product. It's really a whole suite of tools to help grownups.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're focused on anyone that thinks at some moment in time, "I think I might need a budget," and then we try and convince them that a budget is fun and useful and productive. Then we just teach them kind of a new way of thinking about their money and have them go on their way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the backstory of this really started with you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. I was the first one to realize that I needed a budget, at least that I knew, and my very new wife and I, we were both just newlyweds, broke, both in school. We wanted to get through school. We wanted to do it without taking on any debt, and we weren't making a lot of money at all. So I just thought, "Well, we need to watch this carefully." So I built this little spreadsheet for just me and my wife, Julie. A year later, it had done a lot of heavy lifting for us. We were on the same page. We were saving money.

Jesse Mecham:
Then this little baby came along, and our two big goals, we didn't want to borrow any money for school and we wanted Julie to be able to step out of the workforce and just focus on this baby, and she was the breadwinner at that time. I was still mainly focused on school. So the whole impetus was like, "Well, could we figure out some way to just kind of close that gap?" That was where I thought, "Well, maybe other people would want to use this spreadsheet that Julie and I have used." So we launched it and iterated for the next 17 years, and here we are.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of people are working from home, but they're thinking or they're being told that they're going to come back in some form. So much is up in the air. Give us some money tips for managing this time in our lives.

Jesse Mecham:
Structure. That is the word. You want to build structure in. It's not so you can be uber super productive, right? We're not saying, "Oh, now you can be Superwoman because you've got work right there. You can go sit over there and just start plugging away." Not that at all. It's actually structure to be able to stop working and find time to close things down. So anything you can do, if it's a morning routine and a shutdown routine, our team swears by that, if you have the luxury of finding a separate space with maybe a door that you can close, that's excellent. Headphones that you can pop on and mute things, that's excellent. Anything where you can create structure around your work, but most importantly it's so you can shut things down. We saw a lot of burnout from 2020, not because ... Well, I mean, yeah, because of the pandemic, but because people didn't know how to not be at work when work had come home.

Bobbi Rebell:
All the rules changed when the pandemic hit. It became kind of okay to have kids in the background, but at a certain point, there is a productivity cost. So give us some money tips for parents balancing work and family, especially in this transitional time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're promoters of remote work, and it's been kind of unfair for remote work to have the pandemic come along with the experiment, because what you were dealing with, it's like, "Oh, we don't like working from home because my kids are here." I'm like, "Well, they won't always be there. They'll probably be back in school, and it'll feel different," or suddenly someone's having to just on a whim work from their kitchen table. That's not ideal for basically most everyone. I say most because I do know one person that loves the chaos, and he works, codes right in that. But he is the exception.

Jesse Mecham:
So we don't want to combine our experience of working from home with the fact that we had all these other dynamics with the pandemic, number one, and maybe only, because you'd start here and then see what happened. You've got to have conversations with your spouse. You're probably both working, and you kind of have to say, "Okay, how do we divide and conquer this situation?" But Julie and I, when I used to work in our home, we had to have just straightforward conversations. I would say, "Hey, I'm going to go down." It's like I'm gone, just gone, and she was clear on that. Then she also needed to know from me, "Hey, are you going to come up for lunch? Should I eat without you?" She didn't want to just miss out on something. But it was a little bit of a burden for her if I wasn't very communicative on what my schedule looked like. She's like, "Oh, should I wait around, or should I take off with the kids and go somewhere?"

Jesse-Mecham-Twitter-Quote-#1-You-Need-A-Budget.png

Jesse Mecham:
So just overly communicating as far as the boundaries go has been really helpful, but you have to recognize you're always going to iterate on this. Everything's changing. Life will change. The kids will get a little older, and they can understand things like, "Hey, don't come in when the door's closed." I lock my door here when I'm doing something like this. It's recording where I'll hear Faye, my little five-year-old, run across the garage floor, and I'll hear her coming. She knows if the door's locked, that means don't knock. That means just give Dad a little bit of time, and I can pop out at some point. But you've got to communicate those boundaries like, "Hey, this is real. I'm really at work."

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's an area that is ripe for improvement in my home, for sure.

Jesse Mecham:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So okay. So your product is YNAB, and I'm sure some people are super fans and some people give you the eye roll. Part of it is that there's a perception that budgets are all about being restrictive. I'd like you to share an experience you had with your wife when you had a certain amount budgeted for groceries, but it wasn't working for her because it wasn't about the money.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, it's almost nothing is ever really about just the money. There's always something at least a few layers deep, and in this instance, I regret to say that it was a 10-year evolution of my learning on this and Julie also learning it as well. But for the most part, when we were first early on married and I was not even working just on YNAB, I had a real job and stuff, I mean, I was swamped doing that, and she was swamped doing these little kids. So we were both pretty swamped. I do still the heavy lifting of the budgeting as far as running the software and making sure everything's reconciled, and then she comes over and I'm like, "Hey, I'm ready for you." She comes over and she looks at it all, and we make sure we're on the same page.

Jesse Mecham:
That was always how it worked, and one of those categories in there was the groceries category. Our third rule of budgeting is to roll with the punches, meaning you can overspend. You just adjust. It's flexible. So every month, we would overspend in groceries, and then literally 10 years in, one day ... So this would mean we had four kids, probably, at the time. I was like ... Same old conversation. It was like a light bulb went off for Julie or something where she's like, "For me, a successful grocery trip doesn't mean I'm under budget. It means that the kids don't meltdown. It means that it's just smooth. It means we're in and out. That's success."

Jesse Mecham:
I was trying to have the old school Julie, when we were first married and she knew the price of every brand of can of corn. But over time, we had evolved, and she didn't have the brain space for it, nor should she have. So it was her recognizing the value that she was placing was on the experience, not on just, "Oh, look how little we spent." Way back when we were first married, it was vital that we spent so little because it was so tight. So I bumped our budget up quite a bit, and we haven't overspent since. That was a big lesson for me. There's usually something behind the scenes when we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and you're speaking to something that hits home for so many of our grownup listeners, that it is an evolution as you go through the different stages of being a grownup. At the early times, when you made that budget initially and the decision about how much money you would have for groceries, she was in a position where it made sense with her time and her attention to be looking at every little price. There sometimes is a time in life when the price within that budget is not the most important thing. It might be the time, that it's not worth her time, resources, especially now, as you have seven children, to know the price of corn or whatever it may be. So I think it's really important that financial grownups understand that things change and that's okay. It's important to be able to adjust things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're a big believer in not having debt. Obviously, you say it's not inevitable, but there are a lot of people that point out that debt can be used for good, like education. You were able to avoid debt for your education. Tell us about that, and give us some tips about avoiding debt, especially for people that are looking at student debt, credit card debt, what have you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. The student debt, I'll kind of set aside for just a moment. Credit card debt, for the most part, at least as it's reported, you see a lot of people say, "The worst situations are someone declares bankruptcy." They'll say, "A lot of the time, it's a medical debt that will kind of tip the scales," but we don't recognize all of the little debts that come along that kind of pile up. Then it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. This final one is a medical bill or something a little bit larger than is the norm. Most people, it's kind of death by a thousand cuts with that credit card balance. So it goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way. It goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way.

Jesse Mecham:
It's really because they're making spending decisions now, not considering future expenses that are going to happen, that are very much going to happen. The car will need to be repaired at some point or an appliance will need to be replaced. So when these abnormal kind of ... Someone will say, "Oh, it's this one-off thing. This isn't a normal month, but we had this one-off kind of 'Ah' experience. I just had a water heater go out. Well, just the pipe for it, where it started shooting a little stream of water in your face if you walked by. We were like, 'Well, we've got to get that fixed.'" That just happens. So that's all real, and there is no such thing as a normal month. So every time we see a new expense pop up, we're like, "Oh, that's abnormal. That's not normally what happens. So I'll just put it on this card because it's a one-off." You find out that that abnormal stuff happens all the time. So we're always kind of telling ourselves that story, and that story isn't true.

Jesse Mecham:
So when we get to our second rule, we are embracing those true expenses, we want people to be able to look ahead to those larger, less frequent expenses that surprise them and break them up into monthly amounts and start saving up for the car repair, the appliance repair, or the vacation, kids' summer camp or whatever it may be, not always just bad things. Then when they're choosing to spend money in the moment, they're considering the future as well. So that thinking shift, and I should say I'm not talking about people that are truly in dire straights. They know how to stretch. I mean, you talk about financial grownups, financial tips, they know how to stretch a dollar in ways that would just blow our minds. So I'm talking about people that make good money. They don't have good information, and so they're just not choosing in the moment based on information that's fit to really give them the answer they need. That's how we slowly get into the credit card debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can you get that information?

Jesse Mecham:
You need to stop looking at your checking account balance as the end all, be all point of information. Say, "Well, how much money do I have? Can I go out to sushi, or are we going to get some cheap pizza? Can I do this? Can I buy these shoes that I just saw or not?" People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Jesse Mecham:
So instead, we want them to follow our first rule. You take that bank balance, you break it up into jobs, and you say, "This month" ... Say we have $1,000. "400 of that is for groceries for the next little while. The 200 of it is for this thing. 100 of it is for a car repair that I know will happen, but I don't know when and I don't know how much, but 100 bucks would be better than zero. I'm going to set that aside this month." You just start breaking that pile of money down. 50 bucks will be for sushi. Then you live according to that plan.

Jesse Mecham:
When your friend says, "Hey, we should go get some sushi," you look at your phone, and instead of seeing that you have $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, yeah, sushi, slam dunk" or you see $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, should I? I don't know," you still don't know, still stressful, you look at the sushi category and you're like, "Oh, I've got 50 bucks. I'm sitting pretty. Let's go do sushi," or you see that your eating out category is $2 and you're like, "You want to just come over? I'll make you some tea or something." But you're not choosing something now without considering all of those future obligations that are going to hit you. That's the key.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to get through a couple other tips we have prepared for our listeners. You talk a lot about embracing your true expenses, and I feel like you were alluding to that in the last answer. What does it mean to embrace your true expenses?

Jesse Mecham:
You have to recognize that expenses are not even. They're not steady. They're like, I don't know, a really unhealthy EKG, maybe, where it's just like, "Boom, here's a big surprise. Boom, here's a big surprise." You always think, "Oh, that's the exception." It's not. It's real. Christmas comes every single year. So if you celebrate Christmas, if you do the gift thing, then you'd say, "Well, how much do we want to spend on that? Maybe it's $600." So you set aside 50 bucks a month. For all of 2021, you're setting aside 50 bucks a month, and then when Christmas comes, you have $600. Instead of flipping it around and starting to say, "Oh, well, I don't have any money, so I'll just put it on a card and then I'll pay that down," think about it this way, Bobbi. It's always you and future you that are sitting there with the pile of money. Future you needs to have a voice at the table.

Jesse Mecham:
If you think about the debt situation that you asked me about earlier, when you say someone's like, "Oh, we'll put that on a payment plan. We'll put this on a payment plan. That's the name of the game," that person, that company is thinking about future them. They're like, "Oh, man, it'd be great if you'd finance this car. Absolutely. It'd be great for us." They're totally thinking about future them, future quarterly earnings things for shareholders, future bank balance. I mean, they're all over the future. Then you have the person that signs it away saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that note for this car." They're not thinking about the future. I'm trying to flip that around. I'm trying to have people think about their future and position themselves to be future-oriented, where then they're making decisions with both of you in mind, future Bobbi, present Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and it's hard, because the truth is one of the things that worries a lot of us right now is that things like you talk about a car, car loans are getting longer and longer in term to make the payments look lower, but ultimately, you're paying more, and it's over your head for a very long time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're orienting where they know. Well, don't even look at the repo situation. I mean, how many times people will get cars repossessed, and the same car will get repossessed five times. There is someone making money in that scenario, and it's not the person driving the car. So that seven-year note that you see on cars now, they used to be three, then five. Now they're seven. All that is is an evolution of the financing of that GM, Ford. Every car company makes most of their money, most of their profits from the financing side of this, not from the manufacture of the car. They're putting it out to seven years because they know that future Toyota, future Honda, no knock on any of the companies, but they are future- and profit-oriented, and people that are buying the car are now-oriented.

Jesse Mecham:
That's where we have to just try and get that shift to happen. So you start paying yourself a car payment, saving up cash for it over time. It might mean that you buy a car that's beneath you for a little while, but then you trade up over time and you start paying cash for that. You get out of that car payment trap. It's not a given.

Bobbi Rebell:
Or you don't trade up. A lot of really wealthy people drive really crummy cars.

Jesse Mecham:
It is absolutely. Yeah. They're hiding in plain sight.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. One final tip. What does it mean to age your money?

Jesse-Mecham-Twitter-Quote-#3-You-Need-A-Budget.png

Jesse Mecham:
So we're essentially talking about if you were to earn a dollar today that it would be 30 to 60 days before you actually spent that dollar. So when a dollar enters your system, the clock starts ticking, and that dollar starts getting older and older and older. Right now, most people that are living paycheck to paycheck, they are spending dollars. I mean, they have a pile of bills just waiting for money to land, and we want to flip that around. We want to have a pile of money where bills come and land and you're like, "Oh, okay, I've got the money here set aside."

Jesse Mecham:
If you follow our first three rules, which we talk about ad nauseum, if you follow our first three rules, that fourth rule where you start to spend money that's a little older, a little older, a little older, it almost just happens automatically. It's a way to step back from the financial edge. You sleep better. You can talk more effectively about money with your partner because the stress levels are much lower. You make better decisions because of those stress levels being lower. You probably live longer because your stress levels are lower.

Jesse Mecham:
That's the aging your money concept. Spend money that is old. When you think about swiping a card, you actually spend money that ... Well, the metaphor breaks down, but it hasn't even been born yet. You haven't even earned it yet. The shift that we're seeing where companies are paying people for that day, for that shift, and they think that's going to help people break the paycheck to paycheck cycle, that's not going to do it. We're just pushing that can down the road. We have to have people start to orient themselves around thinking a little further ahead.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the way that you are reframing this and the different perspectives that you're giving, because I'm sitting here listening, and my mind is turning. It's so interesting to come at this from a different perspective. So thank you so much for joining us.




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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Jesse Mecham:
People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey there, grownup friends. Do you guys stress out about money? I do some of the time. I do. Do you check your bank balance before you make a purchase? Do you get anxious worrying about something unexpected coming at you, whacking your delicately balanced finances that are okay for now, but maybe not as strong as you would like, especially if those unexpected things should happen? But we have you covered with this week's financial grownup, Jesse Mecham. He is the founder of the You Need a Budget app and software, I should say, AKA, YNAB. Jesse has a lot to say about how we take the stress out of our grownup financial lives. The father of seven is remarkably calm. Yeah, I said the father of seven, in part because he has been able to separate his work from his family life, something we also talk about. I think you're really going to love his work from home tips as well. So with that, here is YNAB's Jesse Mecham. Hey, Jesse Mecham, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jesse Mecham:
Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are the founder, CEO, and creator, creative mind, I should say, behind You Need a Budget, affectionately known by many as YNAB. Congratulations on all the success of this product, and really, it's more than a product. It's really a whole suite of tools to help grownups.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're focused on anyone that thinks at some moment in time, "I think I might need a budget," and then we try and convince them that a budget is fun and useful and productive. Then we just teach them kind of a new way of thinking about their money and have them go on their way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the backstory of this really started with you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. I was the first one to realize that I needed a budget, at least that I knew, and my very new wife and I, we were both just newlyweds, broke, both in school. We wanted to get through school. We wanted to do it without taking on any debt, and we weren't making a lot of money at all. So I just thought, "Well, we need to watch this carefully." So I built this little spreadsheet for just me and my wife, Julie. A year later, it had done a lot of heavy lifting for us. We were on the same page. We were saving money.

Jesse Mecham:
Then this little baby came along, and our two big goals, we didn't want to borrow any money for school and we wanted Julie to be able to step out of the workforce and just focus on this baby, and she was the breadwinner at that time. I was still mainly focused on school. So the whole impetus was like, "Well, could we figure out some way to just kind of close that gap?" That was where I thought, "Well, maybe other people would want to use this spreadsheet that Julie and I have used." So we launched it and iterated for the next 17 years, and here we are.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of people are working from home, but they're thinking or they're being told that they're going to come back in some form. So much is up in the air. Give us some money tips for managing this time in our lives.

Jesse Mecham:
Structure. That is the word. You want to build structure in. It's not so you can be uber super productive, right? We're not saying, "Oh, now you can be Superwoman because you've got work right there. You can go sit over there and just start plugging away." Not that at all. It's actually structure to be able to stop working and find time to close things down. So anything you can do, if it's a morning routine and a shutdown routine, our team swears by that, if you have the luxury of finding a separate space with maybe a door that you can close, that's excellent. Headphones that you can pop on and mute things, that's excellent. Anything where you can create structure around your work, but most importantly it's so you can shut things down. We saw a lot of burnout from 2020, not because ... Well, I mean, yeah, because of the pandemic, but because people didn't know how to not be at work when work had come home.

Bobbi Rebell:
All the rules changed when the pandemic hit. It became kind of okay to have kids in the background, but at a certain point, there is a productivity cost. So give us some money tips for parents balancing work and family, especially in this transitional time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're promoters of remote work, and it's been kind of unfair for remote work to have the pandemic come along with the experiment, because what you were dealing with, it's like, "Oh, we don't like working from home because my kids are here." I'm like, "Well, they won't always be there. They'll probably be back in school, and it'll feel different," or suddenly someone's having to just on a whim work from their kitchen table. That's not ideal for basically most everyone. I say most because I do know one person that loves the chaos, and he works, codes right in that. But he is the exception.

Jesse Mecham:
So we don't want to combine our experience of working from home with the fact that we had all these other dynamics with the pandemic, number one, and maybe only, because you'd start here and then see what happened. You've got to have conversations with your spouse. You're probably both working, and you kind of have to say, "Okay, how do we divide and conquer this situation?" But Julie and I, when I used to work in our home, we had to have just straightforward conversations. I would say, "Hey, I'm going to go down." It's like I'm gone, just gone, and she was clear on that. Then she also needed to know from me, "Hey, are you going to come up for lunch? Should I eat without you?" She didn't want to just miss out on something. But it was a little bit of a burden for her if I wasn't very communicative on what my schedule looked like. She's like, "Oh, should I wait around, or should I take off with the kids and go somewhere?"

Jesse Mecham:
So just overly communicating as far as the boundaries go has been really helpful, but you have to recognize you're always going to iterate on this. Everything's changing. Life will change. The kids will get a little older, and they can understand things like, "Hey, don't come in when the door's closed." I lock my door here when I'm doing something like this. It's recording where I'll hear Faye, my little five-year-old, run across the garage floor, and I'll hear her coming. She knows if the door's locked, that means don't knock. That means just give Dad a little bit of time, and I can pop out at some point. But you've got to communicate those boundaries like, "Hey, this is real. I'm really at work."

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's an area that is ripe for improvement in my home, for sure.

Jesse Mecham:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So okay. So your product is YNAB, and I'm sure some people are super fans and some people give you the eye roll. Part of it is that there's a perception that budgets are all about being restrictive. I'd like you to share an experience you had with your wife when you had a certain amount budgeted for groceries, but it wasn't working for her because it wasn't about the money.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, it's almost nothing is ever really about just the money. There's always something at least a few layers deep, and in this instance, I regret to say that it was a 10-year evolution of my learning on this and Julie also learning it as well. But for the most part, when we were first early on married and I was not even working just on YNAB, I had a real job and stuff, I mean, I was swamped doing that, and she was swamped doing these little kids. So we were both pretty swamped. I do still the heavy lifting of the budgeting as far as running the software and making sure everything's reconciled, and then she comes over and I'm like, "Hey, I'm ready for you." She comes over and she looks at it all, and we make sure we're on the same page.

Jesse Mecham:
That was always how it worked, and one of those categories in there was the groceries category. Our third rule of budgeting is to roll with the punches, meaning you can overspend. You just adjust. It's flexible. So every month, we would overspend in groceries, and then literally 10 years in, one day ... So this would mean we had four kids, probably, at the time. I was like ... Same old conversation. It was like a light bulb went off for Julie or something where she's like, "For me, a successful grocery trip doesn't mean I'm under budget. It means that the kids don't meltdown. It means that it's just smooth. It means we're in and out. That's success."

Jesse Mecham:
I was trying to have the old school Julie, when we were first married and she knew the price of every brand of can of corn. But over time, we had evolved, and she didn't have the brain space for it, nor should she have. So it was her recognizing the value that she was placing was on the experience, not on just, "Oh, look how little we spent." Way back when we were first married, it was vital that we spent so little because it was so tight. So I bumped our budget up quite a bit, and we haven't overspent since. That was a big lesson for me. There's usually something behind the scenes when we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and you're speaking to something that hits home for so many of our grownup listeners, that it is an evolution as you go through the different stages of being a grownup. At the early times, when you made that budget initially and the decision about how much money you would have for groceries, she was in a position where it made sense with her time and her attention to be looking at every little price. There sometimes is a time in life when the price within that budget is not the most important thing. It might be the time, that it's not worth her time, resources, especially now, as you have seven children, to know the price of corn or whatever it may be. So I think it's really important that financial grownups understand that things change and that's okay. It's important to be able to adjust things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're a big believer in not having debt. Obviously, you say it's not inevitable, but there are a lot of people that point out that debt can be used for good, like education. You were able to avoid debt for your education. Tell us about that, and give us some tips about avoiding debt, especially for people that are looking at student debt, credit card debt, what have you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. The student debt, I'll kind of set aside for just a moment. Credit card debt, for the most part, at least as it's reported, you see a lot of people say, "The worst situations are someone declares bankruptcy." They'll say, "A lot of the time, it's a medical debt that will kind of tip the scales," but we don't recognize all of the little debts that come along that kind of pile up. Then it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. This final one is a medical bill or something a little bit larger than is the norm. Most people, it's kind of death by a thousand cuts with that credit card balance. So it goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way. It goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way.

Jesse Mecham:
It's really because they're making spending decisions now, not considering future expenses that are going to happen, that are very much going to happen. The car will need to be repaired at some point or an appliance will need to be replaced. So when these abnormal kind of ... Someone will say, "Oh, it's this one-off thing. This isn't a normal month, but we had this one-off kind of 'Ah' experience. I just had a water heater go out. Well, just the pipe for it, where it started shooting a little stream of water in your face if you walked by. We were like, 'Well, we've got to get that fixed.'" That just happens. So that's all real, and there is no such thing as a normal month. So every time we see a new expense pop up, we're like, "Oh, that's abnormal. That's not normally what happens. So I'll just put it on this card because it's a one-off." You find out that that abnormal stuff happens all the time. So we're always kind of telling ourselves that story, and that story isn't true.

Jesse Mecham:
So when we get to our second rule, we are embracing those true expenses, we want people to be able to look ahead to those larger, less frequent expenses that surprise them and break them up into monthly amounts and start saving up for the car repair, the appliance repair, or the vacation, kids' summer camp or whatever it may be, not always just bad things. Then when they're choosing to spend money in the moment, they're considering the future as well. So that thinking shift, and I should say I'm not talking about people that are truly in dire straights. They know how to stretch. I mean, you talk about financial grownups, financial tips, they know how to stretch a dollar in ways that would just blow our minds. So I'm talking about people that make good money. They don't have good information, and so they're just not choosing in the moment based on information that's fit to really give them the answer they need. That's how we slowly get into the credit card debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can you get that information?

Jesse Mecham:
You need to stop looking at your checking account balance as the end all, be all point of information. Say, "Well, how much money do I have? Can I go out to sushi, or are we going to get some cheap pizza? Can I do this? Can I buy these shoes that I just saw or not?" People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Jesse Mecham:
So instead, we want them to follow our first rule. You take that bank balance, you break it up into jobs, and you say, "This month" ... Say we have $1,000. "400 of that is for groceries for the next little while. The 200 of it is for this thing. 100 of it is for a car repair that I know will happen, but I don't know when and I don't know how much, but 100 bucks would be better than zero. I'm going to set that aside this month." You just start breaking that pile of money down. 50 bucks will be for sushi. Then you live according to that plan.

Jesse Mecham:
When your friend says, "Hey, we should go get some sushi," you look at your phone, and instead of seeing that you have $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, yeah, sushi, slam dunk" or you see $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, should I? I don't know," you still don't know, still stressful, you look at the sushi category and you're like, "Oh, I've got 50 bucks. I'm sitting pretty. Let's go do sushi," or you see that your eating out category is $2 and you're like, "You want to just come over? I'll make you some tea or something." But you're not choosing something now without considering all of those future obligations that are going to hit you. That's the key.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to get through a couple other tips we have prepared for our listeners. You talk a lot about embracing your true expenses, and I feel like you were alluding to that in the last answer. What does it mean to embrace your true expenses?

Jesse Mecham:
You have to recognize that expenses are not even. They're not steady. They're like, I don't know, a really unhealthy EKG, maybe, where it's just like, "Boom, here's a big surprise. Boom, here's a big surprise." You always think, "Oh, that's the exception." It's not. It's real. Christmas comes every single year. So if you celebrate Christmas, if you do the gift thing, then you'd say, "Well, how much do we want to spend on that? Maybe it's $600." So you set aside 50 bucks a month. For all of 2021, you're setting aside 50 bucks a month, and then when Christmas comes, you have $600. Instead of flipping it around and starting to say, "Oh, well, I don't have any money, so I'll just put it on a card and then I'll pay that down," think about it this way, Bobbi. It's always you and future you that are sitting there with the pile of money. Future you needs to have a voice at the table.

Jesse Mecham:
If you think about the debt situation that you asked me about earlier, when you say someone's like, "Oh, we'll put that on a payment plan. We'll put this on a payment plan. That's the name of the game," that person, that company is thinking about future them. They're like, "Oh, man, it'd be great if you'd finance this car. Absolutely. It'd be great for us." They're totally thinking about future them, future quarterly earnings things for shareholders, future bank balance. I mean, they're all over the future. Then you have the person that signs it away saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that note for this car." They're not thinking about the future. I'm trying to flip that around. I'm trying to have people think about their future and position themselves to be future-oriented, where then they're making decisions with both of you in mind, future Bobbi, present Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and it's hard, because the truth is one of the things that worries a lot of us right now is that things like you talk about a car, car loans are getting longer and longer in term to make the payments look lower, but ultimately, you're paying more, and it's over your head for a very long time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're orienting where they know. Well, don't even look at the repo situation. I mean, how many times people will get cars repossessed, and the same car will get repossessed five times. There is someone making money in that scenario, and it's not the person driving the car. So that seven-year note that you see on cars now, they used to be three, then five. Now they're seven. All that is is an evolution of the financing of that GM, Ford. Every car company makes most of their money, most of their profits from the financing side of this, not from the manufacture of the car. They're putting it out to seven years because they know that future Toyota, future Honda, no knock on any of the companies, but they are future- and profit-oriented, and people that are buying the car are now-oriented.

Jesse Mecham:
That's where we have to just try and get that shift to happen. So you start paying yourself a car payment, saving up cash for it over time. It might mean that you buy a car that's beneath you for a little while, but then you trade up over time and you start paying cash for that. You get out of that car payment trap. It's not a given.

Bobbi Rebell:
Or you don't trade up. A lot of really wealthy people drive really crummy cars.

Jesse Mecham:
It is absolutely. Yeah. They're hiding in plain sight.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. One final tip. What does it mean to age your money?

Jesse Mecham:
So we're essentially talking about if you were to earn a dollar today that it would be 30 to 60 days before you actually spent that dollar. So when a dollar enters your system, the clock starts ticking, and that dollar starts getting older and older and older. Right now, most people that are living paycheck to paycheck, they are spending dollars. I mean, they have a pile of bills just waiting for money to land, and we want to flip that around. We want to have a pile of money where bills come and land and you're like, "Oh, okay, I've got the money here set aside."

Jesse Mecham:
If you follow our first three rules, which we talk about ad nauseum, if you follow our first three rules, that fourth rule where you start to spend money that's a little older, a little older, a little older, it almost just happens automatically. It's a way to step back from the financial edge. You sleep better. You can talk more effectively about money with your partner because the stress levels are much lower. You make better decisions because of those stress levels being lower. You probably live longer because your stress levels are lower.

Jesse Mecham:
That's the aging your money concept. Spend money that is old. When you think about swiping a card, you actually spend money that ... Well, the metaphor breaks down, but it hasn't even been born yet. You haven't even earned it yet. The shift that we're seeing where companies are paying people for that day, for that shift, and they think that's going to help people break the paycheck to paycheck cycle, that's not going to do it. We're just pushing that can down the road. We have to have people start to orient themselves around thinking a little further ahead.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the way that you are reframing this and the different perspectives that you're giving, because I'm sitting here listening, and my mind is turning. It's so interesting to come at this from a different perspective. So thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find out more about you and about your company?

Jesse Mecham:
You can just go to youneedabudget.com, and we are on all the social stuff. We're even on TikTok, which I don't even understand, but we're there. I personally am not on any of the social stuff. I stay plenty busy not doing that. But you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, all over the place. My podcast is called You Need a Budget as well, and if you loved listening to this silky voice, you can listen to it all you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
So great having you. Thank you.

Jesse Mecham:
Thanks so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's review some of what we learned from Jesse. First of all, it took 17 years for Jesse to get his business where it is now. So be prepared to play the long game with your goals. If you are working from home for the long haul, make sure you create structure to put up guardrails and protect your time so you don't get burned out. Remember, the kids are going back to school. Because kids were home at the same time, remote work was very different during the pandemic. With the kids back in school, it likely will be easier, but make sure to communicate with your family about exactly how things are going to run. Be prepared for abnormal expenses, which are actually kind of routine. We just don't think of it that way. Start putting money aside for unexpected expenses that you know to expect.

Bobbi Rebell:
Consider the future. When you were about to buy something, are you considering future you and how that will impact future you, the decision you make today, right? Break up your money and give every dollar a job to start getting control of your money. Think it through. When you borrow money, like for a car, know that the companies stretch out the length of the loan to make those payments lower. Do the math, but I'm going to bet you probably are going to pay more in the end. Age your money. Try to wait and have money in your account for a period of time before you spend it. It'll take a lot of anxiety out of your life. How do you lower the stress levels when it comes to money? I'd love to hear your ideas. DM me at bobbirebell1, and let me know.

Bobbi Rebell:
A reminder, if you are shopping for gifts, please check out grownupgear.com. I will be eternally grateful for your business. As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to grownupgear.com each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. We could also call it Financial Independence Day, I hope. I don't know. Maybe. There are two ways to enter to win. Take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, and tag me at bobbirebell1. Then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. That's hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter to win a $50 gift card to grownupgear.com is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. So easy, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Grownup Gear, as I like to say, is it's a micro business. We really do need and appreciate all of your support, so check it out and, of course, tell your friends. Big thanks to Jesse Mecham of You Need a Budget for helping us lower our stress levels and be our best financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup, the podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free. But I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, StartupBobbi Rebell KaufmanYou Need A Budget, YNAB, Budgeting, Budget, Money Tips
School of Credit’s Flame Newton is out of Prison, and Revealing his Secret Money Tips
School of Credit’s Flame Newton is out of Prison, and Revealing his Secret Money Tips

Flame Newton is turning his criminal past success in identity theft to educate and empower others. The author and credit expert shares his money tips on credit cards, protecting your identity and much more to help us all be financial grownups.

Flame-Newton-Main-Instagram-The-School-of-Credit.png

Flame’s Money Story

Aw man. I always take a deep breath before I do that, because anytime I get into this area, I like to make sure it's detailed. I like to make sure that you understand it and it's clear. That I misinterpret nothing that I've said or going to say, or getting ready to say. And that was, I was the bad guy, right? I went to jail for murder and I went to jail for bank robbery. Right. That's what I went to jail for. What I did was I rob people and I killed them while they were still living. And they have a term for it and have a word for it. That word is called identity thief. I went to prison for a very long time based upon that, right? Because I did something in the eyes of the government they never seen, heard, or even done before.

Flame Newton:
And I know you got all misjudgments about me right now, as you listening to this. But I like to make sure that you hear it right out of the horse's mouth, as they say. What I did was wrong, wrong to the utmost. But when the government said I did was I only stole people identities that had a 600 credit score or below. So not the 700 or higher that everyone was so in love with. What I did was, is I was able to clean their credit up and then attach it to a business to go get money from. Now, although that my method was wrong, the process wasn't. And so I ended up going to prison. And while I was there, there were guys that was there and they was always talking to me. And they would say the same thing like you was talking about earlier Bobbi. You know what they would say to me? Man, I sure wish they would've taught me credit in school.

Flame Newton:
That got me to thinking. A lot of these people that are in prison contrary to your belief, are there for monetary value. And what does that mean? The reason that they was there was for something pertaining to money and you can say, well, he killed him. He killed him because he was trying to get some money. Somebody owed him some money, some type of relevance to it. He there for robbery. Robbing somebody to get some money. Say he there for drugs. Selling drugs to get some money. And you start to add these things up. What they don't know is pretty much what we talked about earlier. The fact that stuff was not talked about in heavily populated areas. And so being understand of that magnitude, I'm able to teach.

Flame Newton:
And one of the biggest compliments that I've ever getting is when a kid had asked me one time, I'm sitting in prison and he asked me, he said, Flame, could you read this to me? Read. And the word was tomorrow. Couldn't believe it. See things that we take for granted, these things really weigh down on other people like, reading.

Flame Newton:
Now, although that he could tell you about 28 grams is 28 grams. And understanding the ounces and because he's dealing with drugs all day. And he learned the numbers in that magnitude, even count money all day long pertaining to it. But he didn't know the magnitude of things like reading. And I said, what if you read something that you like? And so when we get into these type of components pertaining to it, I'm understanding, and I make sure that on every single platform that I've ever been on, will never be one that I would never say the words that I'm apologetic on all get up for every single thing and every victim that I've ever affected. I make sure of that. I don't hesitate that. But with that being said, along this life, we have journeys and this was just one of mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you actually go to jail for?

Flame Newton:
I went to jail for identity theft, money laundering, and bank fraud. So what I did was I took people’s identity, attach it to a business and went in and got a lot of money from it. What I was doing was cleaning up the negative items to make them appear as more trustworthy than they actually were, getting the banks to give out money to that particular person. That was when I would go get the money and take off in that manner. Money that they didn't even know that it existed from the people that I took the identities from.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow, that's really scary.

Flame Newton:
Over 75% of the American public, that once they fall in debt, they go back into debt within the two to three year window. Why? Because they have not been educated about it. So the more that they can get educated about something pertaining to what fuel, I'm just talking about credit.



Flame’s Money Lesson

Flame-Newton-Twitter-Quote-#1-The-School-of-Credit.png

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you actually go to jail for?

Flame Newton:
I went to jail for identity theft, money laundering, and bank fraud. So what I did was I took people, identity, attach it to a business and went in and got a lot of money from it. What I was doing was cleaning up the negative items to make them appear as more trustworthy than they actually were, getting the banks to give out money to that particular person. That was when I would go get the money and take off in that manner. Money that they didn't even know that it existed from the people that I took the identities from.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow, that's really scary.

Flame Newton:
Over 75% of the American public, that once they fall in debt, they go back into debt within the two to three year window. Why? Because they have not been educated about it. So the more that they can get educated about something pertaining to what fuel, I'm just talking about credit.




Flame’s Money Tip

Flame-Newton-Twitter-Quote-#3-The-School-of-Credit.png

Flame Newton:
And the tip that I'm going to give you for this is watch this. You pull out your credit card right now. I need everybody to pull out your credit card. If you driving just keep driving, don't do it while you driving. But right now I want you to pull out your credit card. If the front doesn't match the back, that card is whack. If the front says Chase, the back of your card must say Chase. But if the front of your card, now I love Victoria Secret. Victoria Secret, we love you too. But if your front of your card says, Victoria Secret and the back of your card says Synchrony Bank, that's not a great quality credit card. You like bank issued credit cards.

Bobbi Rebell:
Why? Tell us why.

Flame Newton:
Because That is a quality lender. And a quality lender meaning that that point, that bank have gave you money. They didn't give you goods or services for money. I like to explain it in this way. Like Home Depot. Home Depot has a great company. I love Home Depot to death. But if Home Depot gives you let's say, a $2,000 line of credit and you go buy refrigerator for a $1,000. If you buy a refrigerator for a $1,000, that refrigerator might've cost Home Depot $200. So if it cost Home Depot $200, that means you paid one fifth of the price of that. So if you didn't pay back Home Depot that thousand, lets say you didn't pay them back. What was the loss to Home Depot? Was the loss $1,000 or was it $200? The bank issue is going to lose more so the risk is going to be higher, which makes it a more quality card.



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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Flame Newton:
You know what they would say to me? Man, I sure wish they would've taught me credit in school. And that got me to thinking. A lot of these people that are in prison contrary to your belief, are there for monetary value. And what does that mean? The reason that they was there was for something pertaining to money. And you can say, well, he killed him. He killed him because he was trying to get some money. Somebody owed him some money, some type of relevance to it. He there for robbery, robbing somebody to get some money. Say he there for drugs, he selling drugs to get some money.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grown up is hard, but together we got this. Hey friends, this is going to be a very different and a very important episode. Normally we talk a lot about things like staying out of debt, and financial literacy, and the consequences of not doing those things of not knowing what's going on with your money. But what about financial literacy to stay out of prison, to not commit crimes? That is what my guest Flame Newton wanted to talk about. He spent about a decade of his life serving time for identity theft. And head a lot from fellow prisoners about why they were there. And in almost every case, Flame says the crime was tied to money in some way. It brings the importance of financial literacy to a whole new level.

Bobbi Rebell:
This man has a lot to say that makes sense, but you have to pay close attention. So this is an episode you really want to be present for. I hope all of you get as much out of this interview as I did. It is really, really good. Here is school of credits, Flame Newton. Flame Newton, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Flame Newton:
Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for being here. And by the way, we connected on Clubhouse. So you're my first Clubhouse find. So I'm so excited because you have the most amazing backstory and you have incredible advice. I do a little homework on my guests Flame, and this was on your Facebook page and it's very appropriate to our grownup audience. You say the phrase I get tired of hearing is, "They didn't teach us this when we were growing up. News flash, you grown up now. So you better learn it. Or this thing called life will teach you." Tell me more about that and your general philosophy. And then we're going to get into more about you.

Flame Newton:
Wow, Bobbi. One thing that I can say pertaining to that, we listened to a lot of people in a different manner of ways. And one of the ways that as a collective group of individuals, they coming together and they always have this quite saying. And that saying is, man, they didn't teach me this when I grew up. Right? And so all of these things amongst that, or my parents didn't teach me this. And they'll say all of these different things, but what we must know and what we must understand is that at this point, this world is not the world that we had it when we grew up. It's not. And that's something that we have to come to grips on, is the fact that now we in a position now to creatively get information from all walks of life.

Flame Newton:
I mean, even think about our children now, right? And our children, they have friends all over this globe. All right. And it's all based upon the technology that we have in advance. So pertaining to just utilizing the school system, getting the school system to teach us things. Right. Or even passing judgment down to our parents who actually never taught as well. And when you start to base it upon that, now you start to say, you know what? Now it's up to me. Why? Because now I'm kind of adapted to what my children are doing. What is that? I'm adapted to the globe because they have this thing and it starts with www. And when you say www, let's let it be understood and what it is. It's called the world wide web, right? The first word tells you everything, the world. And so you can get different perspectives pertaining to the information that you don't know from people that are all over the globe, all over America.

Flame Newton:
So if you're looking for information pertaining to something that can make you better, you have these places. And they're a lot of free places. And we can talk about them. Places like Google. And I understand Google have a lot of bad information and misinformation, but there's also some good ones there too. So let's not discredit those. They also have places like YouTube, even the social media networks like Facebook, or even going down to where you got me at, which was Clubhouse, right? And a collective group of these places that have pertaining to a lot of this information, we just have to buckle down and get it into a point to where we got to find out what matters to us most. What we're going to quit doing, is we're going to quit making up excuses and bringing up the past as a reason for why we're not moving towards the future.

Bobbi Rebell:
I totally agree. Could not agree more. And we could talk about this all day, but I want our listeners to learn more about you and your backstory. Because you are highly intelligent and you are a student for sure. And unfortunately earlier in your life, you use that for some, well, some things you went to prison for. Tell us more about that.

Flame Newton:
Aw man. I always take a deep breath before I do that, because anytime I get into this area, I like to make sure it's detailed. I like to make sure that you understand it and it's clear. That I misinterpret nothing that I've said or going to say, or getting ready to say. And that was, I was the bad guy, right? I went to jail for murder and I went to jail for bank robbery. Right. That's what I went to jail for. What I did was I rob people and I killed them while they were still living. And they have a term for it and have a word for it. That word is called identity thief. I went to prison for a very long time based upon that, right? Because I did something in the eyes of the government they never seen, heard, or even done before.

Flame Newton:
And I know you got all misjudgments about me right now, as you listening to this. But I like to make sure that you hear it right out of the horse's mouth, as they say. What I did was wrong, wrong to the utmost. But when the government said I did was I only stole people identities that had a 600 credit score or below. So not the 700 or higher that everyone was so in love with. What I did was, is I was able to clean their credit up and then attach it to a business to go get money from. Now, although that my method was wrong, the process wasn't. And so I ended up going to prison. And while I was there, there were guys that was there and they was always talking to me. And they would say the same thing like you was talking about earlier Bobbi. You know what they would say to me? Man, I sure wish they would've taught me credit in school.

Flame Newton:
That got me to thinking. A lot of these people that are in prison contrary to your belief, are there for monetary value. And what does that mean? The reason that they was there was for something pertaining to money and you can say, well, he killed him. He killed him because he was trying to get some money. Somebody owed him some money, some type of relevance to it. He there for robbery. Robbing somebody to get some money. Say he there for drugs. Selling drugs to get some money. And you start to add these things up. What they don't know is pretty much what we talked about earlier. The fact that stuff was not talked about in heavily populated areas. And so being understand of that magnitude, I'm able to teach.

Flame Newton:
And one of the biggest compliments that I've ever getting is when a kid had asked me one time, I'm sitting in prison and he asked me, he said, Flame, could you read this to me? Read. And the word was tomorrow. Couldn't believe it. See things that we take for granted, these things really weigh down on other people like, reading.

Flame Newton:
Now, although that he could tell you about 28 grams is 28 grams. And understanding the ounces and because he's dealing with drugs all day. And he learned the numbers in that magnitude, even count money all day long pertaining to it. But he didn't know the magnitude of things like reading. And I said, what if you read something that you like? And so when we get into these type of components pertaining to it, I'm understanding, and I make sure that on every single platform that I've ever been on, will never be one that I would never say the words that I'm apologetic on all get up for every single thing and every victim that I've ever affected. I make sure of that. I don't hesitate that. But with that being said, along this life, we have journeys and this was just one of mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you actually go to jail for?

Flame Newton:
I went to jail for identity theft, money laundering, and bank fraud. So what I did was I took people, identity, attach it to a business and went in and got a lot of money from it. What I was doing was cleaning up the negative items to make them appear as more trustworthy than they actually were, getting the banks to give out money to that particular person. That was when I would go get the money and take off in that manner. Money that they didn't even know that it existed from the people that I took the identities from.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow, that's really scary.

Flame Newton:
Over 75% of the American public, that once they fall in debt, they go back into debt within the two to three year window. Why? Because they have not been educated about it. So the more that they can get educated about something pertaining to what fuel, I'm just talking about credit.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is one thing people can look at and boost that score?

Flame Newton:
It's not your score. So let's leave that right there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh okay.

Flame Newton:
And I'm going to come back. I got you Bobbi. Watch this. Watch this Bobbi. I got you. I want you to be concerned with the contents which is on your credit profile. Again, the items that are on your credit profile, I want you to take heed to those items that are there, understanding that they have these things call quality lenders. Right. Quality lenders. These lenders are considered measurements. They're considered the high's to the high. Now the Bank of America's, the Wells Fargo's, the Chase's, Capital One's, the Cities, Barclays, even the US banks. You have some of those quality lenders that are on your profile.

Flame Newton:
And the tip that I'm going to give you for this is watch this. You pull out your credit card right now. I need everybody to pull out your credit card. If you driving just keep driving, don't do it while you driving. But right now I want you to pull out your credit card. If the front doesn't match the back, that card is whack. If the front says Chase, the back of your card must say Chase. But if the front of your card, now I love Victoria Secret. Victoria Secret, we love you too. But if your front of your card says, Victoria Secret and the back of your card says Synchrony Bank, that's not a great quality credit card. You like bank issued credit cards.

Bobbi Rebell:
Why? Tell us why.

Flame Newton:
Because That is a quality lender. And a quality lender meaning that that point, that bank have gave you money. They didn't give you goods or services for money. I like to explain it in this way. Like Home Depot. Home Depot has a great company. I love Home Depot to death. But if Home Depot gives you let's say, a $2,000 line of credit and you go buy refrigerator for a $1,000. If you buy a refrigerator for a $1,000, that refrigerator might've cost Home Depot $200. So if it cost Home Depot $200, that means you paid one fifth of the price of that. So if you didn't pay back Home Depot that thousand, lets say you didn't pay them back. What was the loss to Home Depot? Was the loss $1,000 or was it $200? The bank issue is going to lose more so the risk is going to be higher, which makes it a more quality card. That make any sense?

Bobbi Rebell:
It makes total sense. And I have never seen that argument frame that way and I'm processing it. And I'm going to keep thinking about it because you make a really interesting point. I want to get to where people can find you. I know you have a lot of amazing resources. I can't believe you created this in only a little over a year since you've been out. But tell us more about where people can find you and how they can learn from all that you have to offer?

Flame Newton:
Great. I appreciate it. One is I have a book which is called The School of Credit: Learn and Mastered the 12 Levels of the American Credit System, which is on Amazon. Definitely, that is something that I want you to go tap into. It's a great foundation. This is one of the books that goes down with the greats. When I'm saying greats, I'm saying the greatest books of all times, such as the Webster's dictionary, such as the encyclopedias, and those sort of ordeal. So it's in a different caliber. Also, you can find me, you can reach out to me at flame@flamenewton.com. Again, that is flame@flamenewton.com. I'm always on Clubhouse. You can find me on social media sites. I been away from Instagram. I'm starting to get over there now. Also, Facebook, all under Flame Newton. And other than that, man, listen, when you see me, man, I stop, I talk, I laugh. We joke. We kick it. We have fun. This a good time. You know what I mean? Or if not, we're going to figure out how to make it a good time. Other than that, appreciate that Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. And people want to know Flame, your real name?

Flame Newton:
Flame Newton.

Bobbi Rebell:
Given by your mother. Really? That's amazing. Love it. All right. Thank you so much.

Flame Newton:
I mean, I appreciate you having me on this podcast. I'm excited for the people that are just getting started on their credit journey. I'm appreciative of people that are trying to overcome something and don't feel like they can overcome it. I'm excited for you by Bobbi and the podcast, to see which direction that it's going to grow. I do appreciate you. And I thank you. And I'm humbled on all levels.

Bobbi Rebell:
There's a lot here, but here's some things that stood out to me. Stop making excuses and saying, so-and-so, didn't teach you. Well, if you're a grown up, go out and educate yourself. In the past, you could say you didn't have access to information. Well now, as Flame points out, we do have information. We have the internet. You have to be careful. There is misinformation out there, but you can, and you need to get educated and take responsibility for it yourself. Flame also doesn't like store credit cards. Well, the basic premise is that they have less to lose if you default. His feeling, is that their validation of your credit worthiness may not have the same high bar as a bank credit card. It's an interesting theory and something we should think about. Flame also warrants that the majority of people are repeat offenders when it comes to getting into debt. So if that is you, stop the cycle.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing you should definitely not do is go into debt buying presents for friends and loved ones this season. There's a lot of celebrations coming up. I get it. But please check out the affordable gifts on my website, grownupgear.com. And as a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 credit card to grown up gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. And maybe we can also call it financial independence day. There are two ways to enter to win. Take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, Instagram specifically. And tag me @bobbirebell1. And then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. Big thanks to Flame Newton for sharing so generously with us and helping us all be financial grownups

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grown-ups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.



Authors, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, MoneyBobbi Rebell KaufmanFlame Newton, Money Tip, Money Tips for Financial Grownups
How to make $10,000 in 10 days with author and entrepreneur Rachel Rodgers
How to make $10,000 in 10 days with author and entrepreneur Rachel Rodgers
Main Insta- Rachel Rodgers ceo hello 7 we should all be millionaires (1).png

Rachel Rodgers is back! She has a new book "We Should All Be Millionaires" plus why broken kitchen cabinets drive her nuts and why she is throwing out her “shitty bras”. Rachel also updates us on the Rodgers Ranch and her company Hello Seven.

Rachel’s Tips

Tip #1- We have this thing where we want to be liked. Every human wants to be liked, this is not unique to women, but our culture has created this situation where women think they need to be nice and they need to be liked by all. Let me tell you something, that is a losing game. That desire to be liked really kills your ability to generate more money. I think, we think like, "Oh, if I make a bunch of money, people are not going to like me." You know what? People already don't like you, so who cares? Might as well make some money.

Tip #2- It's just little things like that, where we have shabby conditions around us that make us feel shabby inside. When you wake up and your environment tells you, "You know what? You must be a boss because look at this environment that you're in," guess what? You're going to go out there and you're going to make million-dollar decisions all day, every day. It really shifts your energy when you are in an environment that makes you feel really good.

Twitter Quote #1- Rachel Rodgers ceo hello 7 we should all be millionaires (1).png

Tip #3-Are you surrounding yourself with people who make broke decisions all day? Is your best girlfriend, Brenda, calling you to complain about her job every day, but never does anything to go get a better job or talk to her boss about it or deal with her situation? Or are you surrounded by people who when you say, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this exciting thing. Hey, I'm thinking about buying a house. Hey, I'm thinking about making this money move," they're like, "Ooh, I wouldn't do that," and discouraging you and being very negative about it and making you feel bad about being ambitious? When you have those kinds of people around you all day, trust me, it is affecting your ability to make million-dollar decisions. This is literally nonstop. This is exactly how it works, and there's science to back it up. Harvard studies, where it shows that the people that you spend the most time with, 95% of your success or failure in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish comes from the people you surround yourself with on a daily basis. If you are surrounding yourself with naysayers, people who are negative, people who are not ambitious at all, people who are discouraging, you are going to be discouraged and you're likely not going to make the moves that you want to be making.

Tip #4- Okay, a lot of times we say, "Well, I really want to upgrade my home, but I don't have enough money." One of the sections of the book, what we talk about is can we flip that but to an and? Can we say instead of, "I want to do this thing, but I can't afford it," what if you said, "I want to do this thing and I don't currently have the money." Cool, now that opens up possibilities. It makes you feel like, "Oh, okay. These are the facts of the case. I want to do this thing and I don't have the money right now, but what could I do to change the situation?" I could potentially change it. It creates opportunity. It opens it up, it expands the possibilities. Whereas when you say, "But," it's kind of like it closes the door on that being a possibility, it closes the door on that opportunity. I encourage you to be and people instead of but people. This goes to the peer group. Are you surrounded by people who can say, "Yes, that's true, and what could you do differently? Let's brainstorm some opportunities." Imagine if we had friends who would brainstorm business opportunities, money-making opportunities, networking opportunities with us, instead of talking about everything that's wrong with the world and just complaining all the time and commiserating. We could do that too, but let's make sure that we are also being expansive. If you change your but to and, that might open up some creativity for you to come up with solutions to the financial problems that come up.

Follow Rachel!

Twitter Quote #3- Rachel Rodgers ceo hello 7 we should all be millionaires (1).png

Follow Bobbi!

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Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

It is officially spring, and that means graduation season is on. We here at the Financial Grownup Podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and the seriously most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts, all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup Gear also makes great gifts for Mother's Day, Father's Day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette parties, birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code GRADUATION for a 15% discount, and thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and we truly appreciate your support.

Rachel Rodgers :

We did a 10K in 10 Days challenge with 350 of our clients. The average was like $6,700 per person, and they, as a group, made $2.4 million in 10 days.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes, my friends, $10,000 in 10 days, do you dare take the challenge? You want to hear about it though, right? Rachel Rodgers is back and the perfect guest for our newly updated format here on Money Tips for Financial Grownups. If you missed the bonus episode, it should be just before this one in your feed, but in short, we're streamlining the show to focus more on money tips to help us all be our best financial grownups. I lost count of all the incredible money tips that Rachel shares in our interview, but you're going to hear ... sound every time she drops one.

Bobbi Rebell:

Rachel, who is the CEO of HelloSeven and runs the Rodgers' Ranch, which you're going to hear about in our interview, has a new book out called We Should All be Millionaires. I read it cover to cover in one sitting and you should too, then you should also go back and make note of all the gems in the book. But first, let's get some extra money tips in our interview. Here is Rachel Rodgers.

Bobbi Rebell:

Rachel Rodgers, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast again, welcome back.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yay, I'm so glad to be back. I'm excited.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, we're celebrating because your book, We Should All be Billionaires: A Woman's Guide to Earning More, Building Wealth, and Gaining Economic Power, is released today, the day that this episode is coming out. Tell us high level about the book and what we can expect.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Well, you can expect some tough love and you can expect a guide to becoming a millionaire, making a million dollars. I think we need that. We shoot for six figures and it's not enough, I don't know if you've noticed. You probably have, because you're a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I live in New York City.

Rachel Rodgers :

Exactly, but I want women to be shooting for seven figures so that we can really make a massive impact. The reality is that 2% of women entrepreneurs ever hit the seven-figure mark, and when it comes to the world's billionaires, very, very few of them are women. I think we need to understand how to earn more, and that's what this book is about. It's not about what to put in your 401k or how to invest, what to do with your money on the backend. No, it's about how to get more of it in the first place.

Bobbi Rebell:

You challenge your clients to come up with a way to make $10,000 in 10 days. Let's just start with the results, and then tell me some of the ways that you could make $10,000 in 10 days.

Rachel Rodgers :

We did a 10K in 10 Days challenge with 350 of our clients, and they, as a group, made $2.4 million in 10 days.

Bobbi Rebell:

What was the average?

Rachel Rodgers :

The average was like $6,700 per person, approximately.

Bobbi Rebell:

Which is incredible.

Rachel Rodgers :

I mean, incredible, right? To me, it's not about the money. It's about the fact that what I'm trying to prove and what I want women to be able to prove to themselves is that you can earn as much as you want, whenever you want. You have the ability to generate cash whenever you need to. I think we have a money problem come up and we're like, "I don't know what I'm going to do. Let me start cutting things and slashing things. Let me start shrinking my life," and I'm like, "I do the opposite." If something comes up and I want to spend money on something, I'm like, "Okay, well, let me think about what are my different ways of earning more and which one am I going to choose? Okay, great. I'm going to choose that one, let me put it out there," and then I earn that money in 30 days or less and then I go do that thing I wanted to do.

Bobbi Rebell:

What are some of the best ways people came up with to earn money?

Rachel Rodgers :

Oh, it was amazing. There were people having yard sales, people were just reaching out to past clients who owed them money and they just hadn't reached out to them and said, "Hey, you owe me money. Hey, you hadn't paid your invoice, can you go ahead and take care of that?" They made all this money from clients that were like six months late, just because they weren't following up. I'm like, "Honey, we need to focus on our money and not let all of those dollars trickle out of our hands." That's what I see happening with women as a whole, and so I'm asking us to hold ourselves accountable to really pay attention to our money.

Rachel Rodgers :

That was some of the things that they did. They launched new programs, they created products. They had ideas for all these different ways that they could make money or they thought like, "Oh, one day maybe I'll do X," and I'm like, "I challenge you to go do X right now," and they would do it. They would launch a new program or launch a product and put it out there. They didn't even have to create the product or the program yet, they could just say, "Hey, this is coming. Would you like one? If you purchase it early, here's what happens. You have 10 days to say, yes, you want it," they buy it and then you have a little bit of time to go create the thing and deliver it.

Bobbi Rebell:

And it's also a proven idea. One of my favorite parts of the book, you say you have three ways that women make bad money decisions. What are the three ways that women make bad money decisions?

Rachel Rodgers :

Well, we have this thing where we want to be liked, it's like every human wants to be liked, this is not unique to women, but our culture has created this situation where women think they need to be nice and they need to be liked by all. Let me tell you something, that is a losing game. That desire to be liked really kills your ability to generate more money. I think, we think like, "Oh, if I make a bunch of money, people are not going to like me." You know what? People already don't like you, so who cares? Might as well make some money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Absolutely. Okay, number two, what was the second thing?

Rachel Rodgers :

Environment. We're in this broke (beep) environment. We have (beep) bras. I literally just bought 12 new bras because we've been in a pandemic and every bra has a busted strap, the wire is broken. I was like, "Honey, get your life together." It was just things like that. One of my clients used to have a cabinet in her kitchen that would not open all the way, and because of that, she had a small little kitchen and so it was all shoved into the other cabinets. Every time she opened her cabinets, all this (beep) falling out. She was just like, "This drives me nuts literally all day, every day," every time she's making coffee, every time she's preparing a meal.

Rachel Rodgers :

It's just little things like that, where we have shabby conditions around us that make us feel shabby inside. When you wake up and your environment tells you, "You know what? You must be a boss because look at this environment that you're in," guess what? You're going to go out there and you're going to make million-dollar decisions all day, every day. It really shifts your energy when you are in an environment that makes you feel really good.

Bobbi Rebell:

And then the third one has to do with who we surround ourselves with, right?

Rachel Rodgers :

Exactly. Are you surrounding yourself with people who make broke (beep) decisions all day? Is your best girlfriend, Brenda, calling you to complain about her job every day, but never does anything to go get a better job or talk to her boss about it or deal with her situation? Or are you surrounded by people who when you say, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this exciting thing. Hey, I'm thinking about buying a house. Hey, I'm thinking about making this money move," they're like, "Ooh, I wouldn't do that," and discouraging you and being very negative about it and making you feel bad about being ambitious? When you have those kinds of people around you all day, trust me, it is affecting your ability to make million-dollar decisions.

Rachel Rodgers :

This is literally nonstop. This is exactly how it works, and there's science to back it up. Harvard studies, where it shows that the people that you spend the most time with, 95% of your success or failure in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish comes from the people you surround yourself with on a daily basis. If you are surrounding yourself with naysayers, people who are negative, people who are not ambitious at all, people who are discouraging, you are going to be discouraged and you're likely not going to make the moves that you want to be making.

Bobbi Rebell:

Another money tip in the book that I love has to do with flipping just one word. Tell us about that.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Okay, a lot of times we say, "Well, I really want to upgrade my home, but I don't have enough money." One of the sections of the book, what we talk about is can we flip that but to an and? Can we say instead of, "I want to do this thing, but I can't afford it," what if you said, "I want to do this thing and I don't currently have the money." Cool, now that opens up possibilities. It makes you feel like, "Oh, okay. These are the facts of the case. I want to do this thing and I don't have the money right now, but what could I do to change the situation?" I could potentially change it. It creates opportunity. It opens it up, it expands the possibilities. Whereas when you say, "But," it's kind of like it closes the door on that being a possibility, it closes the door on that opportunity. I encourage you to be and people instead of but people.

Rachel Rodgers :

This goes to the peer group. Are you surrounded by people who can say, "Yes, that's true, and what could you do differently? Let's brainstorm some opportunities." Imagine if we had friends who would brainstorm business opportunities, money-making opportunities, networking opportunities with us, instead of talking about everything that's wrong with the world and just complaining all the time and commiserating. We could do that too, but let's make sure that we are also being expansive. If you change your but to and, that might open up some creativity for you to come up with solutions to the financial problems that come up.

Bobbi Rebell:

Changing the way that you frame how you see things, so important. You also talk about taking certain tests to figure out basically where your talent is, where you're most likely to be the most successful.

Rachel Rodgers :

One of the things that we recommend is that we do an assessment, a skills assessment, to see what skills have I acquired over the years, what are my natural talents and gifts and strengths, what am I naturally good at, what do people come to me all the time to ask me for, where you can start to really hone in on the way that you add value in the world and then how can you capitalize on that skill, how can you start charging for that service, or how can you create a product based on that skillset that can increase your earning potential.

Bobbi Rebell:

And there are specific tests you recommend.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes, exactly. You can take StrengthsFinders, Kolbe, DiSC. There's also a great book called The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. Each one of these will help you assess for yourself where your natural talents and skills lie, and so you can figure out where is my money-making potential.

Bobbi Rebell:

You were waiting for a client's check.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you needed that money. It's very relatable in the last year, because we all learned how important having that cash cushion, whether you label it as an emergency fund or just savings, whatever it may be, you were in a precarious position waiting on money to come in. Tell us what you needed the money for, what was going on, and how it was resolved.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. This was years ago, I was probably two years into building my business. I was pregnant with my son, my daughter was one years old. I was trying to put her in daycare. I was working from home, my husband was in school at the time. My child had been home with us for a full year, there was zero childcare. My child was with her father or me or both of us for the whole first year of her life. I'm trying to grow a law practice, so I needed childcare, and searched for the right childcare, found a great place and her spot came up on the wait list. I'm like, "Great." Now, I'm waiting for this corporate check to come from a client. This was one of my first corporate clients and it was a big check for $5,000, which was the most money that I had ever received at one time in my life at the time.

Rachel Rodgers :

I'm waiting for months for this check to come, because we all know corporations, sometimes it's like net 30. I mean, they just pay you when they feel like it, basically. Three, four months later, finally the check shows up, I go to the bank to deposit, I'm like, "Thank God, I'm going to deposit this check and then immediately write a check for the daycare and go drop that off so that I can hold her spot," because it was like the last day to reserve her spot. I get to the bank, I deposit it, I'm all giddy and excited. I mean, I'm in my sweats, looking like crap, but who cares, I got money so I'm happy. I go to deposit it and the bank teller says, "Great, that'll be a two-week hold," and I'm like, "Pardon me? What?" I'm whispering to her because I don't want the other people in the bank to hear me and I'm like, "Is there any way you can make that available like today?" and she's like, "Nope, I can't because it's an out-of-state check."

Rachel Rodgers :

She sent me to go talk to the branch manager. I go talk to the branch manager, who's an older white guy. Here I am in my sweats looking like a broke (beep) college student and not a trustworthy professional. I go and talk to him and tell him I need the money right away. My face is getting red and I'm just absolutely mortified to be an attorney who has to go beg the branch manager to make her money available right away. It was a good wake up call. I was watching the branch manager and another banker looking at their monitor, I could tell they're scrolling through my account, looking at all my purchases. I'm sitting there and I'm feeling the hot tears come, my face is all red. As I sat there, I just had this moment where I was like, "Never again. This is my fault that I'm here right now and it will never, ever happen again."

Rachel Rodgers :

Luckily, they did release the check, I was able to put my daughter in childcare. That year I took that business from $60,000 a year to $300,000, so 5X'd my revenue, because I got focused because I realized the money was on me. Somebody else isn't going to make that money for me, it's not going to manifest out of thin air, and it's nobody's fault necessarily. Yes, there are systemic things at play. There is racism and sexism at play for sure, and at the same time, I also have a choice in the matter and there's also decisions that I'm making on a daily basis. I held myself to being a financial grownup, and that year, I really grew up and made a lot more money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Just one of the many, many incredible and inspiring stories in your new book. Tell us, we know the book is available everywhere, what else should people be looking out for from you? I know you have a course associated with the book and a lot more going on at the Rodgers' Ranch and so on. Tell us.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Lord, I seem to have way too much going on. We have a podcast called the HelloSeven Podcast. We're always interviewing women, definitely women of color, who are making seven figures or more, because again, I like to provide my clients with evidence.

Bobbi Rebell:

And the Rodgers' Ranch, what's going on there?

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes, we have been fixing it up. It's so funny, my children are right outside my window. My little cottage is right next to the arena where we do horse training and lessons and stuff. My kids are out there right now, riding horses. Yeah, we're crazy up in here. We've also been renovating our retreat house. We're going to be opening up to be able to offer our retreat house up to people who want to come and have a little equestrian getaway here in North Carolina, in the next couple of weeks, so that's really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you have social handles for all these things, right?

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. We are @therodgersranch, Rodgers with a D, on Instagram. Then my personal Instagram is @rachrodgersesq, and you can follow my company, HelloSeven, @hello7co.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much for coming back to the show.

Rachel Rodgers :

Thank you for having me. I love talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, let's review some of the key money tips that Rachel gave us. First of all, aim high. Rachel is all about seven figures, not six. Having high goals is a win-win. If you reach it, you win, but if you get closer than you would have with a lower goal, you also are better off and you still have more room to grow, win. One of the easiest ways to make money is to collect the money that you are owed receivables matter, get them settled. Sell before you create, that way you prove the concept and you have built in pre-orders when you do launch. Just be careful to manage timeline expectations for when customers will get the product.

Bobbi Rebell:

Get over getting everyone to like you and choose who you spend your time with very carefully. Be a friend, be a business colleague, do not be a therapist, unless of course you are a therapist. Make the effort to create a work environment where you will be your most productive. People are shocked that I wrote most of my book, How to Be a Financial Grownup, at a big ugly Formica table under bright lights at the Whole Foods across the street from my apartment. But you know what? There were no distractions and there was great wifi, it worked. Try to experiment a bit and find what works for you. And take a skills assessment test. We'll have the links to the ones Rachel suggested in the show notes.

Bobbi Rebell:

Friends, there is also a companion course to Rachel's book. You can find out more on her website, which we will also have linked in the show notes. Let me know how you guys liked the updated format. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and get more money tips by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and signing up for our now weekly Money Tips newsletter. Big thanks to Rachel Rodgers for coming back and sharing her money tips for financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Saven is our talent coordinator and content creators, so yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com, and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts, it only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.


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Advice, Authors, Entrepreneurs, Millennial Superstars, Money, Personal Finance, Productivity, Role Models, Shopping, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest UserRachel Rodgers, ceo hello 7, money tips for financial grownups
Tiffany Aliche “The Budgetnista” on how she taught her bonus daughter to Get Good with Money
Tiffany Aliche “The Budgetnista” on how she taught her bonus daughter to Get Good with Money
Main Twitter- Tiffany the budgetnista Aliche educator and author (2).png

Former pre-school teacher Tiffany Aliche created a mini-“boss” entrepreneur when her savvy stepdaughter started asking questions about money- and put her on an early path to being a financial grownup. Plus we preview Tiffany’s latest book, Get Good with Money. 10 Steps to Financial Wholeness. 

Tiffany’s Money Story

Every time we would go out shopping, My husband would buy my step-daughter a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him thatt his is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup. I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words." She would get birthday money or Christmas money. I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me." What he realized, because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving, she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that. She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time. I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn. Now, when she was buying ( her favorite place is Staples) she was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were. And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy. She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

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Tiffany’s Money Lesson

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently. And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Tiffany’s Everyday Money Tip

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered. And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

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Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

#2 - Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Buy Tiffany’s book, GET GOOD WITH MONEY today!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up-for-work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy t-shirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded-but-still-super-comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick-me-ups to, to let them know it's all good. And that includes you.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently, like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either," or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost-grownup friend.

Bobbi Rebell:

Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

When I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others, so she had... because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, grownups, how many of you had parents who had you open up their paychecks? Definitely not me. But our financial grownup this week, Tiffany Aliche, known as The Budgetnista, didn't just do that; she talked to her bonus daughter about all the money stuff. Not just the paychecks that she was allowing her to open, as early as age seven; she talked to her about the taxes, the business deductions, the negotiations, the side hustles, the net profit and so much more. These ladies do business plans in their sleep.

Bobbi Rebell:

Welcome everyone to the Financial Grownup podcast. So, glad you guys are here. We talk with high-achieving grownups about money stories that inspired their lives and the lessons from them. And this week's financial grownup, Tiffany Aliche, is truly next-level. I joke with her that while most books these days are Money 101, hers, Get Good With Money, is Money 201 because she holds her readers to a higher standard and goes into the real grownup stuff. Not surprising, given her background in teaching preschool, where she sets kids as young as three up for success. You'll hear what she has to say about what kids that age should hear, when they say, "Buy me... " She pulls no punches.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany has a thriving business, teaching money skills to thousands of Dream Catchers and co-hosts the Brown Ambition podcast with Mandi Woodruff. But as you will hear, this mega entrepreneur, wife and mother's biggest accolades may in fact come from the lessons she is teaching her step-daughter. Here is The Budgetnista, Tiffany Aliche.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you so much, Bobbi with an "I".

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes. And congratulations on your book. I'm going to hold it up here, even though no one can see it, just because I feel good holding it up because I love the cover. Your book is Get Good with Money: Ten Simple Steps to Become Financially Whole. We're going to talk about it more later in the podcast, but give us just high-level what it's about.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's about financial wholeness, which is when these 10 core aspects of your financial life grow together and meld together to create the strongest financial foundation possible so you can build any financial house you want on top of it.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I love, when you read the book, you go along and you get percentages, so you feel like you're building to get to that 100%, which is great. Like I said, we're going to circle back to the book, but first I want to ask you your money story. And it has to do with your bonus baby, your daughter, your 14-year-old step-daughter. She was seven when you came into her life. And you had some interesting discussions about money. Tell us how your money conversations began and how they've evolved.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, they began because I just noticed that her father, every time we would go out shopping, food-shopping or whatever, she would always get a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him, "This is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup." So, I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words."

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would get birthday money or Christmas money. And so, I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me."

Tiffany Aliche :

What he realized... because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving... she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that."

Tiffany Aliche :

She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time.

Tiffany Aliche :

I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn like, "Oh... "

Tiffany Aliche :

So, now, when she was buying... her favorite place is Staples. She was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were.

Tiffany Aliche :

And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy.

Tiffany Aliche :

She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you also were very brave in that you were transparent with your money coming in and the costs associated with running a business. Tell us a little bit about why you did that because many parents hold back. We all hold back secret... I don't know if "secrets" is the right word, but we're not with our money, certainly to young people. And that was an interesting decision.

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah. So, I used to allow her... when I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Tiffany Aliche :

And I remember, I think she was in fifth or sixth grade and she had to interview someone she admired. And she chose me because she wanted to be an entrepreneur. She wasn't sure what she wanted to be. I mean, she's sold lip gloss. She's made friendship bracelets. She's done a bunch of different... now, she's got a YouTube channel. Now, she's teaching adults how to use TikTok. It's like she's got a bunch of different businesses going.

Tiffany Aliche :

But I remember when I realized she was really getting it, because she was still young then, maybe eight or nine. And I explained to her how taxes worked. She heard me talking to her father about taxes. She asked me what they were. And I told her, "Similar to sales tax, taxes are when you pay some of the money that you earn to the government so they can use it to make our country better."

Tiffany Aliche :

And I said, "But when you're an entrepreneur, taxes work differently. When I was a teacher," I told her, "Before I even get my paycheck, the government takes their taxes." And she was like, "That's unfair." I'm like, "Many would say so." But I said, "But as an entrepreneur, when you see those paychecks, Supergirl, I get all my money. Then I can use that money to grow and maintain the business. And what's left over, I pay taxes on. That's why you see me save the receipts. I save the receipts so I can show the government, 'Hey, I spent money to run my business.'" She had a bag one day and it was 15 different receipts. And I'm like, "Well, what are these from?" She's like, "These are the receipts so you give to the government so you could show them that you spend money on the business." And I was like, "Well, they have to be receipts for my business." But the fact that at eight or nine that she was thinking like that was just really transformative.

Tiffany Aliche :

I was a school teacher before I started The Budgetnista. I've seen firsthand that a lot of parents think that it's not age-appropriate to teach financial education to kids. It's inappropriate not to. There are ways to do it in a way that's appropriate as young as three because typically by three or four or five, kids start to saying, "Mommy, Daddy, Auntie, Uncle, can you buy me... " not just, "Can I have... " So, once you hear that word "buy", they've already made the connection between stuff and money. You want to make sure it's the right connection.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson from your money story?

Tiffany Aliche :

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently.

Tiffany Aliche :

And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Bobbi Rebell:

So brilliant. You brought with you an everyday money tip that has to do with paper towels?

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tell us. Tell us. This is great.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered.

Tiffany Aliche :

And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"

Tiffany Aliche :

And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

Bobbi Rebell:

Skip the drama. Find the solution.

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's talk about this book because it is... this is a substantial book. Again, it's called Get Good with Money. One of my favorite things is you say something that has become somewhat controversial. In this age, where we are so focused on automating things... and some things should be automated, absolutely. We should automate our savings and things like that. But just because something, like certain apps, can automate investing doesn't mean you don't need the human touch. You really advocate for having a human involved. Tell us more about the belief and why we need to be more cognizant of it.

Tiffany Aliche :

No, absolutely. Because there's nuance with human beings that you don't get from just automating everything. And also too, it's really from people that you learn. So, if everything is automated and you automate your investments, that's great, but you don't really learn why something works. That's why we have teachers because it's through these teachers that you get to really learn why something works and how it works.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's critically important, depending on where you are in life, that you have actual people who have been there, done that to lean into, whether it's a CFP, whether it's an accountant. You may or may not need one. You might need an insurance agent. You might need an attorney. It all depends. But at the very least, I tell people to get themselves an accountability partner, someone that you can travel the financial journey with. It might be your work mom, it might be your sister, your cousin, but someone that you can link with that you can kind of share the struggles, that you can get accountability and encouragement from and someone who can help to normalize the process. I think human beings work best in community. And it's not something that goes away just because we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:

I read so many books, Tiffany. And many of them are very good, but they're very much Money 101. This is, I feel, more Money 201. You're a former teacher. Well, you're really still a teacher, let's be honest. You hold people to a higher standard. You go into some much more sophisticated topics, but in an accessible way. Tell us about that decision to be a little bit more challenging and to be a little more ambitious with this book.

Tiffany Aliche :

Well, as a teacher, Bobbi, one of the things that we really learn is something called differentiated learning, that people learn differently. So, literally, when I taught, I had kids ages just turned three to turned five. So, that's like high school and college in the same classroom. So, I really had to learn how do I teach something in a way that doesn't offend the five-year-olds and they don't get bored and start tearing up the classroom, or it's not too heavy for the three-year-olds so they don't start tearing up the classroom. And so, I really mastered how do I speak to different ranges of folks.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, the first five steps in financial wholeness, Get Good with Money are really the foundational: budgeting, debt, credit, savings, learn to earn. But the next five really are a deeper dive. So, that's how I address that. I was like, "Okay, if you have that great super foundation, then here's where you're going to learn how to invest for retirement and wealth. Here's where you're going to learn how to make sure you get good with insurance, your net worth, getting your money team and estate planning." And so, I spoke to both of those levels by including both of them in the book. But I wanted to make sure that even if you're like, "You know what? I've got the super foundation," I really did deeper dives so you could learn something new, even if you were pretty good there. Or if you were ready to go to the next level and it was new to you, I really explained it in such a way that even if investing was new to you, that you could really learn.

Bobbi Rebell:

You did a great job. Where can people learn more about you and be in touch?

Tiffany Aliche :

So, you can learn more about me... I'm The Budgetnista on all social media platforms. And you can keep in touch and get the book at getgoodwithmoney.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one. As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup tip number two. Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends. April is Financial Literacy Month and I'm giving away a ton of incredible money books, including Tiffany's. Want one? All you have to do is DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and just say, "I'd love a book from a financial grownup." The authors that are on this podcast and their publishers are incredibly generous. And I can't wait to send out lots and lots of books.

Bobbi Rebell:

And by the way, I was so honored to have the Financial Grownup podcast on Real Simple's list of the top 10 best finance podcasts for beginners, investors and everyone, along with Tiffany and Mandi's Brown Ambition podcast and many more really fantastic shows. I'll share the article in the show notes, which you can see on my website, bobbirebell.com. And I hope you'll make the time to check out some of the other great money podcasts on the list.

Bobbi Rebell:

Big thanks to Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, for teaching us all how to be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell. But the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator, so, yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell:

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear Shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

Stay in touch on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter at @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Advice, Authors, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Money, Personal Finance, Role Models, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursGuest Usertiffany aliche, the budgetnista, money education
How to Earn More and Worry Less with "Think Like a Breadwinner" Author Jennifer Barrett
How to Earn More and Worry Less with "Think Like a Breadwinner" Author Jennifer Barrett
Main Insta- Jen Barrett chief education officer acorns-How to Earn More and Worry Less with _Think Like a Breadwinner_ Author .png

Acorn’s Chief Education Officer Jennifer Barrett shares her own “wake up’ call’ when she learned to think like a breadwinner, and gives us specific strategies to build wealth and create a path to have the rich life we all deserve. 

Jennifer’s Money Lesson-

I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth. So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

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Jennifer’s Money Tip-

I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbi’s Tips-

Financial Grownup Tip #1-

Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent.

Financial Grownup Tip #2-

Thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Get your copy of Think Like A Bread Winner by Jennifer Barrett

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Full Transcript:

Bobbie Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good, and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more thaT I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle.

Bobbie Rebell: Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently. Like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup, or almost grownup, friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear, and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Jen Barrett: Deep down. I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life. I really thought my husband would be the main earner. So it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary, and then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises.

Bobbie Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbie Rebell: Hey, Grownups, this episode has been about five years in the making. I'll never forget sitting in a Midtown restaurant with my new friend, Jennifer Barrett. A mutual friend had introduced us thinking, "Well, you guys have a lot in common and maybe you guys will come up with some projects together." So we were brainstorming our two big ideas. For me, it was Financial Grownup and the idea of sharing money stories to inspire people to build the foundation for a wealthy life of choices, getting to live the life that they want. For Jen, it was the concept that we all had to, well, think like breadwinners. Jen had, and still has, I should say, what we call a big job. She really is the breadwinner and her job as the chief education officer at Acorns is intense and sometimes all consuming. But finally, her new book, Think Like a Bread Winner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less is coming out.

Bobbie Rebell:I can tell all of you it has been well worth the wait. I was honored that Jen asked me to contribute to this book and to endorse it along with David Bach, Eve Rodsky, the author of Fairplay, Farnoosh Torabi, who by the way wrote When She Makes More, so thinking along the same path, and Erin Lowry, who's been a frequent guest on this podcast, author of the Broke Millennial books series, and many more. In our interview, Jen Barrett shares the story that started it all when she realized what she didn't want to admit. If she wanted to get what she wanted to get, she was going to have to start thinking like a breadwinner. Here is Jennifer Barrett.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen Barrett, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jen Barrett: Thanks so much for having me.

Bobbie Rebell: I'm so excited to talk to you about your new book. So many years in the making, we've been talking about this for years. It's finally here. Think Like A Breadwinner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less. By the way, Jen, it's already getting reviews that are amazing. This one I'm going to read to people. It's from Ladders, which is a career website. "Jennifer Barrett's manifesto for working women transcends its goal by being more than a finance book, but a testament that anyone anywhere can achieve their goals with the right advice." Not bad, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, that was a nice review. It was nice to read.

Bobbie Rebell: You're very modest.

Jen Barrett: I know. You're so nervous. You're on pins and needles before the book comes out. You're like, "I hope they like it." So it was really nice to read that.

Bobbie Rebell: Well, I got a sneak peek of the book because I got to endorse it so everyone can read my blurb when they get the book. Before we talk more about it, though, you did bring with you a money story, which really inspired the book so many years ago. Tell us your money story, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, well, there's a material difference between being able to cover the bills and handle a budgets and building wealth that supports your life and the future you want. That difference became super clear to me just after we'd had our oldest son. At the time, I was in my early 30s and we were sharing a small one bedroom apartment with our toddler who was about 18 months old. One night I was pacing back and forth with him, trying to get him back to sleep, and I think it just hit me so hard in that moment that we were in a situation that was just completely unsustainable.

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Jen Barrett: I had this moment of, "Wait a second. I thought I was doing everything right financially." I had a little 401k. I had a little bit of savings. I was paying half the bills. But what I realized was that I hadn't been putting money away for the things that were most important to me, and that was being able to have another child, to afford to buy a place or even to move into a bigger apartments because we lived in Brooklyn, which is not cheap. I did some real soul searching and asked myself, "Why didn't I make those choices with my money to save more and to invest more?" I realized that subconsciously I had been thinking that my husband would take the lead there. In that moment, I think it finally dawned on me how precarious an assumption that is. So I asked myself in the days that followed, "How would the choices I make with my money and my career be different if I had been raised to think like a breadwinner?"

Jen Barrett: That's what sort of set me off on a whole new journey and brought me to where I am today, more than a decade later, which is a much better place financially. We have a larger home. I helped with most of the down payment. We have two lovely sons now. I've had both a career and been able to build the kind of wealth that I couldn't have even imagined 12 years ago when I had that wake up call.

Bobbie Rebell: Tell us more about what you were doing before you had that wake up call, what kind of job you had. Because you had a really good job that a lot of people would be very, very envious of and really admire. I mean, you were high achieving and then the things that you looked for in the next job, besides obviously paying more. I know there was a lot of soul searching about sort of what people would think, because we're both journalist backgrounds, there's a lot of judgment there.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, and I think that's an important point is just because you have a good job doesn't mean that you have your finances together. You can be a professional success and feel like a financial failure. I interviewed more than 100 women for the book and I did find that to be the case with a surprising number of women who were otherwise very successful. So I think I was in sort of the same situation but with one crucial distinction, which is I was an editor at Newsweek at that point a pretty big weekly news magazine. It has since sort of gone under and been reborn and it's not quite the same as it used to be, but it was a great job. I really looked like I had it all together from the outside, but I was really living paycheck to paycheck for the most part.

Jen Barrett: We say paycheck to paycheck, but what I was was broke, right? I only had a few hundred dollars in my savings. I was still paying down some credit card debt. So if you looked at my actual net worth, I was in negative territory and I really wasn't making the kinds of choices or making the kinds of money that would allow me to support the life that I really wanted. One big reason for that, which is almost embarrassing to admit now and I've since changed my approach with this significantly, is that I had never negotiated my salary. So when I got the job at Newsweek, I was just so thrilled to be hired there I literally did not even think to negotiate. I do think part of that was that I was so excited to be hired there, but the other part of it was deep down I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life.

Jen Barrett: I really thought my husband would be the main earner and so it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary. Then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises. So one other critical moment for me was I came back from maternity leave and I found out that someone had been hired who had just a few more years experience than me in a very similar role and they were making 50% more than me. That moment was like ... It was so crushing that I vowed I would never ever make that mistake again and I was going to negotiate the hell out of every job offer and raise that I got from that point on, and it made me sort of reassess this idea I had about loyalty and about employers just taking care of you because you're doing a great job. It was a real wake up call in that sense too, where I realized I need to advocate for myself. I need to show my value. I need to ask for it and not assume that I'm going to get it just because I'm doing a good job.

Bobbie Rebell: So you set out to get a job that paid more. Tell us what that job was and how that onboarding went.

Jen Barrett: Yeah. So I was hired in my first job in management. I became the director of a health site. It was part of NBC. It was called iVillage Health. It was a huge site at the time. I think one of the top five largest health sites for women. It was a dramatic increase in the amount of responsibility I had, but also in my salary. So I ended up making almost double what I had ... Actually, no. More than double what I had been making at Newsweek and in between there I freelanced, and when I was freelancing, I really understood that I had undervalued myself and my skills because I was able to make a lot more freelancing than I had in my full-time job at Newsweek. So that was also a realization and a validation of the fact that the skills that I had were valuable. Then with this job, it both provided a lot more income. It allowed me to get the mortgage and it also put me on the management track, which I have been on ever since.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what was your husband thinking while this was going on? Did you have talks about this?

Jen Barrett: We did and I think part of it was when he and I first started dating, he was working at a startup at the time and was making a lot more than I was as a reporter. But I think that's where some of the assumptions sort of got set in my head. The startup went under and then he moved back to journalism. So he took a pretty big pay cut and suddenly our salaries were much closer than they have been. But I think in my head, I still kept telling myself that that was a temporary situation. I still expected him to earn considerably more than me, even as the evidence started to mount that that may not be the case, particularly with both of us being in journalism. We did have some discussions around that and in particular, when I got that job in management at that point, he was on contract.

Jen Barrett: So we realized that my income and my income prospects were probably greater at that particular point. Certainly I was the one who had secured the mortgage in part because I had a full-time job and it's very difficult when you are on contract to get approved. So we realized that my income was really critical to the household and so that launched a whole series of discussions about how is this going to work. I'm not going to say it was easy. We had to have a lot of really difficult discussions because I was pregnant with our second son when I moved into the breadwinner role. In my mind, again, I thought, "Oh, this is sort of a temporary situation where I'm going to take on this really demanding role so we can get the mortgage. I'll keep doing this."

Jen Barrett: Then I found I really enjoyed it. I realized I really am quite ambitious and so I wasn't sure I wanted to give up that role, but at the same time, for a while I was also trying to be the primary caregiver and that, as anyone who has tried to do both can tell you, is almost impossible to sustain. So it led to some really emotional and candid conversations with my husband about what role are we each going to take here and how are we going to divide all the responsibilities, household responsibilities, caregiving, breadwinning, in a way that feels fair to each of us?

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what is the lesson from your story?

Jen Barrett: I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth.

Jen Barrett: So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Bobbie Rebell: You also brought with you in everyday money tip.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbie Rebell: It's a very good gut check and I think it's something that sounds easy, but we don't really do that a lot. We don't usually just kind of pause and sit down and really think about that and maybe even write down a few things that we want to do. I find when you write things down, sometimes they stick a little bit better. I don't know. All right, we got to shift gears because I don't want to run out of time and we have to talk about Think Like A Breadwinner because this is a book that has been in the making for quite a long time, because it is so well researched, Jen. You spent a lot of time doing the work here and the book is chock-full of statistics that are ... Some of them would just blow my mind. If you could share with us just one statistic that's sort of your elevator pitch to get this book, what is that one stat that stands out?

Jen Barrett: Well, I think one of the most significant stats is that half of moms in this country today are contributing at least 40% of the total household earnings. That's according to the latest Institute for Women's Policy Research report. That just reinforces the fact that women's income is absolutely critical right now. I think we saw that when women started dropping out of the workforce. We could see what the impact was going to be, not just on families, but on the economy.

Bobbie Rebell: A lot of this book was already done before the pandemic, but you were still finishing it up during the pandemic. What is in the book now that would not have been pre-pandemic?

Jen Barrett: The pandemic reminded us of how important it is to take charge of our finances and to build the kind of savings and wealth that provide financial security and help us weather tough times like this. So that message of taking care of yourself and putting money into an investment account and building wealth to support you not just now but in the future is more important than ever.

Bobbie Rebell: So well said. Jen, where can people catch up with you? I know that your book is going to be everywhere.

Jen Barrett: I hope so. You can find me at jenniferbarrett.com and you can read more about the book there, and then I'm on social media all over the place. It's @jbarrettNYC on Instagram, Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn.

Bobbie Rebell: All the places.

Jen Barrett: Oh, the places. Clubhouse. Yes.

Bobbie Rebell: Yes, Clubhouse. Let's not forget that. Thanks, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Thank you.

Bobbie Rebell: Here we go. Financial Grownup tip number one. Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent. Financial Grownup tip number two, thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Bobbie Rebell: One thing I do, I always try to think of new revenue streams. My latest is Grownup Gear. You can see more about it at grownupgear.com. I hope you'll support it by checking out the merchandise. It's perfect for all of your grownup milestones. Gifts for graduation, new parents, mother's day, father's day, a new home, birthdays, or just celebrating being a grownup and kind of owning it. Discount codes available on my Instagram @bobbirebell1. Another reason to follow me on Instagram, we will be giving away copies of Jen's book and of other authors on the show. This spring, so many amazing authors are on tap and they're generously giving gifts to our Grownup community. I also want to invite everyone to join our weekly Friday at 1:00 PM Clubhouse chats in the Money Tips For Grownups club. DM me on Instagram if you need and invite to Clubhouse. Big thanks to Jen Barrett for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbie Rebell: The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books.

Bobbie Rebell: To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Advice, Authors, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Financial Independence, Get Paid More, Journalists, Money, Personal Finance, Role Models, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest UserJennifer Barrett, chief education officer acorns, think like a breadwinner, author, build wealth, asking for a raise, the life we deserve
Don’t ask about the weather! And other tips to connect more effectively with The Lost Art of Connecting author Susan McPherson
Don’t ask about the weather! And other tips to connect more effectively with The Lost Art of Connecting author Susan McPherson

Susan McPherson, author of the new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships shares 5 specific tips to connect and intentionally leverage your network of friends and colleagues. 

Susan’s 5 Easy Tips for Daily Connection

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#1 - Spend a little bit of time reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

#2 - Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener. For those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila! No more FOMO.

#3 - Ask questions. To truly build connection, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

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#4- Let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and more reliable fashion.

#5- Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - Create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it.

#2 - Make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day.

Get your copy of The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Business Relationships today!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: It is officially spring and that means graduation season is on. We here at the Financial Grownup Podcast, have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have durable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and the seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts, all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup gear also makes great gifts for mother's day, father's day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette parties, birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code graduation for a 15% discount, and thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast and we truly appreciate your support.


Susan McPherson: This is a way of leading yourself professionally and personally, to be of support because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey friends, today's show is going to put a smile on your face. This week's financial grownup is my dear friend, Susan McPherson. She is back to share her pandemic project, and that is her new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships. Susan is the founder and CEO of McPherson Strategies, a communications consultancy that focuses on the intersection of brands and social impact. When not in quarantine, Susan's a prominent speaker at top conferences around the globe. She's also a contributor to the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company and Forbes, and you've probably seen or heard her or read her work in the media everywhere from NPR to CNN, to USA today, the New Yorker, New York Magazine and The Los Angeles Times and many more. She is also an angel investor, and if we're going to cut to the chase, she is huge on social media. By the way, fun fact, Susan has run six marathons.

Bobbi Rebell: Her book, for us, could not come at a more perfect time. As I read the book, I got so many ideas of things that I can do to specifically enjoy spending time with people and frankly, being a better friend and being a more effective person in my business and professional relationships and just enjoying it all more. And a reminder, you're going to be tempted to take notes but please focus your attention on the gems that Susan shares. We've got a summary for you right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. Just go to the Financial Grownup Podcast dropdown menu and when you click on Susan's episode, you'll see that summary, along with all the links you need and below that, a full transcript. Here is Susan McPherson. Susan McPherson, welcome back. You are a financial grownup. We're so happy to have you here again.

Susan McPherson: Bobbi, I couldn't pick a better place to be.

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Bobbi Rebell: We are going to be talking about your new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships and what better time than now when we are just on the cusp, I hope, oh please, I hope of getting out of this debacle that has been quarantine, COVID-19 and the last year, right?

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. But I have to say, if anything, over this last year, one thing we all have realized is how much we miss human connection.

Bobbi Rebell: So true, and you are the ultimate connector. I mean, literally so funny because at the beginning of this book, you talk about the fact that some people have called you a human CRM app and that's so true.

Susan McPherson: It is something I have loved all my life so what better than to excel at something that you love doing?

Bobbi Rebell: Well as someone that has personally benefited from your generosity and your graciousness and your giving nature, I can just, first of all, attest to the truth of that. You did bring with you five practical tips for daily connection with colleagues, neighbors, and others in your community and network. That's the formal name, but you know what? Really we're talking about how to reset after everything that's been going on. What's your first tip?

Susan McPherson: Spend a little bit of time now, reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Do some old fashion navel-gazing and think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said, what is your second tip?

Susan McPherson : Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener, and I will say for those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila, no more FOMO.

Bobbi Rebell: I love that, and it reminds me, and we're going to digress just for a moment of part of your book, where you talk about creating rituals, something our mutual friend, Erica Keswin talks about in her latest book, but that could be part of getting that done, of JOMO.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. It doesn't all have to be sitting around, having cocktails. You can gather groups for taking a walk and talk. You can gather groups for a cooking class. Again, we've been doing this in some shape, way or form online, but now you have an opportunity to actually potentially maybe by the summer in small groups, doing it in real life.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, we all can't wait for that. What is your third tip?

Susan McPherson: Well, and this is a big component of the book and it's ask. Ask questions. To truly build connection, first, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

Bobbi Rebell: And one underlying theme in your book, by the way, is the importance of curiosity.

Susan McPherson: Yes. And to me, it's a drug and a positive drug because it is curiosity that leads you to the path to understand and appreciate people for where they are and see people, and most importantly, that curiosity helps you then to be able to follow up and be supportive.

Bobbi Rebell: Which is another big theme in your book, and that brings us to your fourth tip.

Susan McPherson: Yes, well, it's important of course, to ask, but we won't be successful at asking if we don't know how to listen. So number four is, let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and probably more reliable fashion.

Bobbi Rebell: That really is everything, and so let's talk about following up and let's get to your fifth tip.

Susan McPherson: My fifth tip is essentially that. Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective. I want to just caveat all of this, Bobbi, this isn't about putting everyone else before you, but this is a way of leading yourself, professionally and personally, to be of support, because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, and you know this Bobbi, you support so many women and men and probably children. That notion, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: That reminds me of some advice that your father gave you growing up that really still resonates with you and really hit home for me.

Susan McPherson: Yes, and that was to always ask first how you can be of help, before stepping up and doing.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah and what would be an example of how someone could put that into, I mean, what I love about this book also is it's so specific and practical, give us some examples first of that, of how someone would put that into their life. Then I'm going to try to squeeze it in one more question before we wrap.

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Susan McPherson: Just a week ago, a dear friend of mine introduced me to a lovely woman who is trying to expand her portfolio. She and I had a 30 minute conversation, literally an hour after a conversation, I was able to introduce her to the executive director of an organization whose board I serve on, and literally the next day, she had an opportunity to actually lead a workshop for that organization. So that all happened within 24 hours. I didn't ask for anything in return. Having the conversation with this wonderful woman named Natalie, after that conversation, I was so impressed that I introduced her, again to the executive director of a board whose organization I serve on and was able to facilitate an opportunity for her. That was a perfect example of how it wasn't a huge lift on my part yet it enormously helped Natalie and it also helped the organization for which the board I serve on.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely, and it also goes to the fact that we get so busy in our lives, that we sometimes go through phases where we feel like we have to say no to even have time to breathe, and then you have to balance that, because you also have some good advice, you say, "Always take the meeting." Tell us more about that and why that is so important.

Susan McPherson: Well, I have the proof in the pudding for that, and that is, my company is now eight years old and seven years in, I realized that 98% of our business had been inbound, which is pretty remarkable for a consulting firm. I realized that in my twenties and thirties, all those meetings I took, that were yes, challenging at times because of course I was busy, those people came back 20, 30 years later, and it wasn't like when I was 25, I was saying, "Oh, I'm going to be calling on you in 2020 when I have a company, to see if you'll buy services from me." It was not even a glimmer in my brain. So every single person we meet is a conduit to something else, to someone else, to something new, to learn something about ourselves, and if we don't open those doors and we don't take those meetings, we are missing tremendous opportunities. I fervently believe that, and I live that every day.

Bobbi Rebell: It's so true. So many major things in my life have happened by almost chance meetings, little meetings that you didn't think were going to be meaningful, and then they do end up having a huge impact sometimes right then, as in the case you described earlier and sometimes not for years later, and that's also important. They're true friendships. The final thing I wanted to just touch on is you talk about expressing gratitude and that's something that sometimes gets lost in the hustle and bustle. I've certainly been guilty of not always properly thanking everyone that's done amazing things for me. It's tough. We get so busy and so distracted and are just keeping up with the world, certainly as we get back into, hopefully some sense of normalcy now. Talk to me more about expressing gratitude and specific ways that people can do that.

Susan McPherson : Don't overthink it. Sometimes just a quick phone call, a quick text, a DM, shining a light on socials, showcasing someone else. Those are all very immediate, quick and simple and easy. You don't have to go so far as sending flowers or sending cookies, although that's certainly a wonderful thing to do, but whatever is going to be the most expedient way, sometimes, is the best way, because that's the way it'll get done. But I think it's important to plan one bit of gratitude, every single day, and that includes gratitude for yourself.

Bobbi Rebell: And as you mentioned earlier, it's important to give, but it's also important to be practical and also look out for yourself.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely.

Bobbi Rebell: Susan, this has been so wonderful. Tell us more about where people can find out more about you. We know your book is going to be on sale, literally everywhere. So I hope people will pick it up and continue to get all of these incredible gems. It is very readable. I will tell you that.

Susan McPherson: Aww.

Bobbi Rebell: It's precise, specific, practical in all the best ways, and yet it has the warmth of your personality in it. Where can people follow up with you, once they get the book?

Susan McPherson: First of all, I am glowing. Thank you so much. Hearing that from you means the world to me, Bobbi. I have so much respect for you personally, professionally. Thank you. You can find me at my company's website, McPStrategies.com. I'm on all the social platforms with the name @SusanMcP1 and of course the book can be purchased at your local bookstores or any of the major online booksellers, and I am grateful for you to give it a shot.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Susan McPherson: Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: All right, guys, that was an awesome interview. Here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one, create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it, but you get the idea and by the way, feel free to send me your suggestions for how I can implement Susan's methodology for this, but we're going to go with the phone for now.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two, make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day. So I want to ask you guys, what little things make big impacts on your days? DM me on Instagram, @BobbiRebell1, I would love more ideas. And while you're at it, help me give away some incredible books. We are giving away copies of books from the incredible authors featured on The Financial Grownup Podcast this year, including Susan's. In order to win, you just have to take a screenshot of the podcast when you're listening to it on your phone, post it on social, so on Instagram. That's @BobbiRebell1, tag me, that's what I mean to say and DM me, to make sure that I see it.

Bobbi Rebell: And we also have a new way to win. If you are on Clubhouse, please join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Then DM me on Instagram and let me know that you joined so I don't miss it and would like to be entered to win a book. Also a reminder, if you are looking for fun and unique gifts for graduation, mother's day, father's day, birthdays, or just frankly, to treat yourself, which we all deserve, take a look at our new grownupgear.com store, the profits there help to support this free podcast. And again, we really appreciate that support. Go out, treat yourself, maybe some friends through a copy of Susan's book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships. Big thanks to Susan, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell: The financial grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator, so yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show, right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life, and this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup List. Go to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com, and if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Advice, Authors, Career, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup Guides, Productivity, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest UserSusan McPherson, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Business Relationships, JOMO, serial connector, sustainability expert
Lessons learned from when your income goes poof! With Recalculating author Lindsey Pollak
Lessons learned from when your income goes poof! With Recalculating author Lindsey Pollak

Author Lindsey Pollak watched her thriving speaking career hit a wall when the pandemic hit a year ago. The career and workplace expert realized she had ignored her own advice, and had all her eggs in one basket. Lindsey gets refreshingly candid about how bad it got, what she did, and how we can all do better. 

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Financial Grownup Tip #1: Social media is more than social. Certainly during the pandemic depending on your business,  it has become an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the ones that fit your business. It’s not just about being social- it is about career success -and sometimes survival as well.

Financial Grownup Tip #2- If you are on social media- don’t forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in clubhouse- raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only but I do have invites so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on clubhouse- Money Tips for Grownups. I’d love to connect with you there. 

Buy your copy of Recalculating : Navigate Your Career Through The Changing World of Work.


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Bobbi Rebell: Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes. And thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Lindsey Pollak : I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures in speaking bookings. And my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to financial grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: It's been a year guys. If you want to get technical, it's been a year and about a week. Although most of us, frankly, lost count of the days and didn't even know which day of the week it was for a while. The pandemic put so many of our lives on hold and so many of our businesses in the tank.

Bobbi Rebell: For people who make their living talking to people in-person, they went from thriving to, well, there's no cute pun here. The business died. There was nothing there. For my friend, Lindsey Pollak, who is a top speaker and bestselling author, ironically in the career space, her career literally went poof last March with no end in sight.

Bobbi Rebell: This was literally unchartered territory for pretty much anyone alive these days. Two weeks to stop the spread was one thing, but getting back to packed rooms with over 1,000 people as she was used to, yeah, crickets. Even now. Lindsey agreed to share her experience with us in the hopes that many of us can at least relate to and get some solace from her experiences.

Bobbi Rebell: She also has, as she always has, great and specific advice on how we can better be prepared for the future and the unimaginable. She also managed to write a fantastic book in quarantine. It is called Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work. we do a little sneak peak at the end of our interview. Here is Lindsey Pollak. Lindsey Pollak, you are a financial grownup and welcome back to the show.

Lindsey Pollak : It is an honor to be back for the second time. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk about your new book, which was written in quarantine and has a lot of really relevant advice for anyone who is thinking of recalculating. That's also the name of the book. But first you brought us a very relevant story that happened to you just when quarantine was starting. And sadly, too many of us can relate to this. Tell us your money story, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I'd be happy to. So, like many people in March of 2020, everything stopped and everything changed. And I think we hear about food service people and certain jobs that you know would be destroyed by the pandemic or pushed off. Professional speakers were in that category.

Lindsey Pollak : I had at that time, been doing about 70 to 80 live speaking events per year. And I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures. I can't even say it. I stumble on the words. I lost six figures in speaking bookings and my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: Just to explain how speaking works, you had deposits. How does the contract work? Did you have to return all the deposits or did they reschedule or was it just gone?

Lindsey Pollak : So, you know what's interesting is, my contract said that the deposits were nonrefundable and that we would make our best efforts to reschedule if something got canceled. Several people took me up on that, I will say, and let me keep the deposits.

Lindsey Pollak : Several requested for their own financial difficulties to return it and I made the decision to do that, to keep the relationships because I understood that people were in really tough times. So I did return them. So it sort of went beyond the contract. And for anything that had been booked, but not yet paid, of course, that just disappeared. Bobbi Rebell: So then what?

Lindsey Pollak : It was tough. And I'll tell you a couple of things, because it's a financial podcast. Number one, just by luck, about a year before my bookkeeper had said, "You really need to have a credit line for your business." I had contacted my bank, Chase Bank, and gotten a very significant credit line because I have good credit that I'm extremely proud of. It's one of the proudest things in my life that I have good credit. And I got a significant six-figure credit line, which saved me.

Lindsey Pollak : I paid it all back ultimately over time, but having that fund to dip into to make sure that I could continue to pay my assistant and my rent and so on. I cut back on expenses tremendously, and I started reaching out. And it's really interesting as I didn't have a plan for where the money would come from, but I've always relied on the fact that relationships are where opportunities come from.

Lindsey Pollak : And I just called people, checked in, "How are you doing? What's going on? How are you?" I mean, for about four weeks, it was just, "Oh my gosh, what's happening?" And slowly but surely, a relationship with a UK firm that had been pending for a while, took off. Slowly but surely, people who had never booked for years were like, "Hey, could you do a session on how to work remotely?" And I was like, "Yes, I can." That had been one slide in my presentation. And now, suddenly that became a presentation.

Lindsey Pollak : It was nowhere near what I had projected for the year, but the year turned out okay. And this miracle moment was on May 5th. I'll never remember. I got an email from my agent about something totally different. And at the very bottom of the email, she said, "And by the way, do you think you might want to write a book during this pandemic experience? I feel like you might have something to say." And that one sentence turned into Recalculating, which we're here today to talk about.

Bobbi Rebell: So perfect. So you basically pivoted from doing speaking to going back to book writing, which you were always doing. This is I think number four, number five? I can't keep track of you, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I think of them like children and I had been writing a book every five years. And I had written the remix last year in 2019. And I say it's like my accidental fourth child. I didn't mean to have a child so quickly after my third, but so it happens. Bobbi Rebell: Well, it's a wonderful book. We're going to talk about it soon, but tell me what is the lesson for our listeners from this?

Lindsey Pollak : It's something that I think is such a cliche, but true. Necessity is the mother of invention. I was a speaker. I was like, I'm a speaker. That's what I do. And I realized I can't only be a speaker.

Lindsey Pollak : And when I look at the people I most admire in my world, people like you, it's do you have a podcast? Do you have online courses? Do you have newsletters? Do you get paid to write? And what I remembered is sometimes you go back to basics, which I think is the other lesson.

Lindsey Pollak : When I was first starting out, I didn't make enough money from speaking. So I was freelance writing. I was coaching. I was doing resume reviews. I was doing anything I could. And I realized I have to get back into that mindset that I'm not "just a speaker." And that's what led to these other opportunities.

Lindsey Pollak : Now, I don't want to say it was easy. I don't want to say I wasn't scared, or I didn't stay up at night, or I wasn't uncomfortable dipping into my savings or my credit line, which I did do. But ultimately, what got me through it, was going back to basics and realizing I have to get creative.

Bobbi Rebell: Looking back, what would you have done differently in terms of setting up your life? Would you have diversified your business more in advance?

Lindsey Pollak : Yes. Sometimes success is not so good because you get so deep into one area that you put all your eggs in one basket. And what's really funny is I've advised job seekers for years, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Even if you're happily employed, keep your network going. Don't just apply for jobs in one field." And I had to take my own advice.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said. And it's good to know that even people far along and super successful in their careers, sometimes have to take their own advice, which they move past. I love this. You brought with you an everyday money tip and I'm going to give a little bit of a spoiler. One part of this made you $2,000 in just extra cash. Tell us your everyday money tip because this is so fascinating. I had no idea this was such a big thing.

Lindsey Pollak : Okay. So at my heart, I grew up in Norwalk, Connecticut, the burbs. I am just a suburban girl. And in my high school, I remember they had all these categories, best dressed, best looking, all that. There was informal stuff that we would just send around to be silly.

Lindsey Pollak : And mine was most likely to drive a station wagon in the suburbs. Which by the way, I have not done, but my money tip was to clip coupons. And in the old days, I remember going to the grocery store with my mom and she had an envelope. Right. And she would hand the coupons to the checkout person. And apparently, I used to play that at home, handing the coupons to the checkout person. Bobbi Rebell: I think we all did.

Lindsey Pollak : I think we all did. Right. Bobbi Rebell: My mom definitely had the coupons. And a whole organizer. There was a coupon organizer box.

Lindsey Pollak : Oh yeah. A little box. Bobbi Rebell: And she would organize what she was going to bring that day. And you were waiting for the double coupon day.

Lindsey Pollak : And here we are, talking about personal finances on a podcast. So, the modern day version of that, it used to be called Ebates. Now it's called Rakuten. Rakuten is I have this little widget on my browser and on my phone that tells me that I can get cash back if you shop through Ebates or Rakuten.

Lindsey Pollak : And over the past several years, I've made $2,000 using that little widget to get little discounts on things. And yeah, of course, I look like, "Ooh, that's fine. I can get a little bit more cash back than if I shop at such and such." And it's funny. I always did it. My husband would make fun of me like, "Ooh, you got your $7.53 check today." And then I looked and I saw, wow, over a few years, I've made $2,000 back and that's real money.

Bobbi Rebell: And that was basically on money you were probably going to spend anyway. Now you might've chosen one retailer over another because of it, but still, it's money.

Lindsey Pollak : Target is my favorite one. The Target app I've saved, I think $110. We've been quarantining in Connecticut. And I think I've saved $110 this year, which is only $10 a month, but hey, I used that credit for other good stuff.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, absolutely. So I have in my hand, my early copy. This is one of my favorite perks of doing this podcast. I have an early copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work, which you wrote during quarantine. So, tell us what is different now, both in quarantine and hopefully, very soon as we emerge from quarantine, in terms of how we recalculate our careers and our life?

Lindsey Pollak : The first thing to think about is, recalculating is not one thing that you do in a moment and then it's over. Right. It's not like a fork in the road. I think we all need to be re-skilling, up-skilling pivoting, diversifying all the things that we talked about in my own story.

Lindsey Pollak : What we've learned through COVID is you cannot coast. Right. You can't just say, "Well, I'm comfortable where I am and I'm going to keep moving forward." You probably never could. But I think we all know that now more than ever.

Lindsey Pollak : And a really important piece of that, that I know you're so good at and is important to you, is if you're not getting good at virtual communication, and remote communication, and email, and texting, and Slack, and social media, you are not keeping up with the tools that you need to have to succeed now and into the future. It's no longer a nice to have. It's an absolute must have skill.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes, I am always learning different things. I mean, for example, right now, I started this merch store and I had to learn all this stuff about how to connect it to Instagram and so on. But it's actually really fun and you feel very accomplished. So, technical skills and learning new ways of doing business is very important.

Bobbi Rebell: And on that note, a lot of people have questions about how to use social media differently while we're in this pandemic, because it does become more important when we can't be social in person. Right.

Lindsey Pollak : Absolutely. But I think there are parallels. And so, the parallels are you've got to remember that each social network, if you're looking at it from a professional standpoint, like networking to find a job or new clients. Just like it's different to chat with people at the supermarket than to chat with people at a black tie gala, you have to see the social networks as different. You can't be the same or use the same language and style, or even necessarily profile photo, on Twitter as you would on LinkedIn, or on Instagram, or on Clubhouse, or what have you. So, number one is to acknowledge that they're all different.

Lindsey Pollak : Number two is I think you do use them in the same way you would in-person networking. So, you and I, let's say, may bond on Facebook because you're wearing a cute shirt or I see a cute picture of your son. I'm not going to say, "Do you have a job." Or, "Can I send you my resume?" I'm going to say, "Hey, great photo. Hey, do you want to get together and talk sometime about work stuff?" It's an entry point, just as if I saw you on the sidelines of a soccer game, we would talk about the game. I wouldn't start to launch into my sales pitch.

Lindsey Pollak : So, I think that social media should be seen as these personal moments where you might "bump into somebody." And then you take it to the next level off of that social network to have the professional conversation. LinkedIn is a bit different. I think LinkedIn is like a professional conference where people go, no one's going to be offended if you try to network professionally on LinkedIn. That's the point. It's like being at a conference. But for all the other sites, it's about building and solidifying real, authentic, personal relationships. And then you take the conversation elsewhere after that. Bobbi Rebell: And what do you think about Clubhouse? Because you're very successful on Clubhouse. I love dropping in on the rooms that you're in and the conversations. What's your take and your advice to people on how to use Clubhouse?

Lindsey Pollak : So that's a really good example of like, "I don't know, I'll give it a try. This is a new thing, and I'm going to try it." And I wasn't sure. To me, it's like a mix between listening to the radio and dropping in on a podcast or a webinar. But sometimes you get to talk.

Lindsey Pollak : What's absolutely amazing to me is how much free advice is there. I'm providing it myself. I do a career chat every Wednesday at one o'clock with a bunch of career experts and people just ask their questions. And what's really cool is, not only do we give our thoughts or advice, but other people on the call can raise their hand and say, "Hey, I know somebody." Or, "Oh, I have an idea for you."

Lindsey Pollak : And so, what's happening is like these conference moments in the Clubhouse app. So I'd really encourage people to give it a try. And if it's not for you, it's not for you, but it's just another tool where you might bond. And just funny things like bumping into each other. I was on it yesterday. I went to graduate school in Australia at this school called Monash University, which is just outside of Melbourne. Most people have never heard of it.

Lindsey Pollak : There was a woman on the call who had gone to Monash University and had moved to the United States. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, you're kidding." And we met on Clubhouse. So you just never know what kinds of moments like that can happen wherever you decide to show up, but you have to decide to show up.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely. So, everyone should follow Lindsey on Clubhouse. And also me. I'm on Clubhouse too.

Lindsey Pollak : Yeah. Bobbi Rebell: And I'm still learning the ropes, but I'm having a great time on it too. So, please follow both of us. Your book Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work is going to be available everywhere, March 23rd. Where can people get in touch with you?

Lindsey Pollak : So my website is my name, lindseypollock.com. I'll spell it for you because it's a doozy. L-I-N-D-S-E-Y-P-O-L-L-A-K. I'm the only one in the world who spells it that exact way. And I'd be delighted to connect with anyone there or on social media.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Lindsey Pollak : Thank you, Bobbi. Bobbi Rebell: Here we go. Financial grownup tip number one. Social media is a lot more than social these days. Certainly during the pandemic, depending on your business, it became an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the onesthat fit your business. It's not just about being social. It is about career success and sometimes career survival as well.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two. If you are on social media, don't forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in Clubhouse, raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only, but I do have invites, so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on Clubhouse, Money tips for Grownups. I'd love to connect with you there.

Bobbi Rebell: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a screenshot and share it on social media. And if you tag me, @bobbirebell1, that will also enter you into our book and merch giveaways. I also want to encourage everyone to pre-order a copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work by Lindsey Pollak. It is a bit complicated, but it really helps Lindsey if you pre-order it.

Bobbi Rebell: And this episode is dropping about a week before it's released, so you still have a week to get it done. And it is truly a big deal to Lindsey, so thank you for doing that. I promise you will love it. And big thanks to my friend, Lindsey Pollak, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell: The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell: Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell: While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram, @bobbirebell1, and on Twitter,

@ bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcast. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Advice, Authors, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Productivity, Role Models, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest Userrecalculating, lindsey pollak, keynote speaker, author, pandemic, speaking career, refresh
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 Ways to Get Paid More with Ladies Get Paid’s Claire Wasserman
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 Ways to Get Paid More with Ladies Get Paid’s Claire Wasserman

Are you working harder than ever and not getting paid what you are worth? Claire Wasserman explains why so many of us get short-changed and shares 5 specific strategies that will upsize our income and compensation. Plus, Claire reveals the behind the scenes story of AOC’s decision to run for political office and her role in the gutsy move. 

Claire’s 5 Tips For How To Get Paid More!

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Tip #1-

Talk to real people about their salary. You could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to a real person. Remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Tip #2-

Have three numbers. I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. This is a big problem because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. Oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter. So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there. So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Tip #3-

Talk about the whole picture. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Tip #4-

Talk about your value add. I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but make the case for yourself. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company." If you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. Discounts with vendors? Maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money. That is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees. Have testimonials too. You should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review.

Tip #5-

You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. So how do you address this? You use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." You've said your big number. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together."

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy Tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally, makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

Bobbi Rebell: I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good. And that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of T-shirts sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more, that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently, like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt.

Bobbi Rebell: The most comfy sweatshirts, T-Shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more, give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost grownup friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle @GrownupGear, and DMS with any questions. And thank you, because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup Guide, five ways to get paid more with Ladies Get Paid's Claire Wasserman.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey, grownup friends. Do you want to make more money? Yeah I thought so, and yeah, me too. The harsh reality is that the pandemic has been brutal, not just for our health, but also, yeah, for our wealth. Because how do you ask for more money from your boss, or how do you raise prices on your customers in a pandemic? I mean, we should be grateful just to have our jobs, just to have our businesses running if that's the case, which is true. That doesn't mean that we don't deserve to get paid more, and that doesn't mean that we can't get paid more. And we should not assume that those who make the decisions can't and aren't willing to pay us more. Right?

Bobbi Rebell: So I was thrilled to get to talk with Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid about her new book aptly titled, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. So, if you are open to making more money, this episode is definitely for you. By the way, no need to take notes. As always, the show notes have a quick summary of the episode, and all the links that you will need, and even a transcript of the entire interview. You just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and click on the Financial Grownup tab to bring you to the podcast section. There's also a search box on the top right if you want to search for this or a past episode.

Bobbi Rebell: Okay, my friends here is Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid.

Bobbi Rebell: Claire Wasserman, welcome to the Financial Grownup Podcast, and congrats on your new book, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career.

Claire Wasserman: Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk more about the book later in the show, but I want to get right into the five ways to get paid more that you brought for us. The first one is about talking to real people. And that sounds easy, but in this age, it can be complicated.

Claire Wasserman: Well, you could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to real people.

Claire Wasserman: Here's the good news, if you are nervous, remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Claire Wasserman: Now, you don't have to ask people specifically, "How much do you make?" Because sometimes that can feel a little uncomfortable. So instead, how about you bring them the research that you've done? "Listen, I'm an art director, five years into my career. I am working for a company that has 10 people." And please note here, I'm talking about context. Context is key. Tell them, "This is the research I did between X and Y. This is the salary. I think I should be getting paid. Am I off base, or, more abstractly, what's the ballpark that you're making?" Just remember, you want to talk to white men also, because they're the ones who are getting paid the most.

Claire Wasserman: And if any of them were trying to figure out how to be allies, which a lot of them are, this is a great way that they can support you. So don't be afraid to even cold email people, find them on LinkedIn, tell them you're trying to figure out your salary and you'd love for them to be an ally. How much do they make? Would they be willing to share, even just a ballpark. The worst thing that can happen is they just don't respond.

Bobbi Rebell: The second tip to get paid more is, "Have three numbers." What does that mean, Claire?

Claire Wasserman: Well, I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. Big problem, big problem, because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. I mean, oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter.

Claire Wasserman: So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there.

Claire Wasserman: So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Bobbi Rebell: Even though you have those three numbers in your head, is it better to try to get them to make the first offer, or is it better for you to throw out the number first?

Claire Wasserman: I have a controversial opinion here, because I think when you do research, a lot of other coaches will tell you, "Never be the first one to say the number, because you might low ball yourself."

Claire Wasserman: If you've done the market research and they're paying in the market research, when you were the first person to say it, you're anchoring high. If they are the first person, they may be anchoring low. And it sometimes can feel a little uncomfortable to say, "Well, that wasn't really what I was thinking," or it might throw you off, maybe even demoralizes you. So start with the number you want, but back it up with the research that you've done. You can even say, "I've spoken to a number of other people," if they ask, "Where did you get this number?"

Claire Wasserman: And you can also say things like, "This is the number, the market research that I found, but what are you proposing?" So it's not like you're ending the conversation with that first number.

Bobbi Rebell: And a lot of employers, though, try to find out what you were making before and anchor to that. How should people handle that? Because it also depends where you live.

Clair Wasserman: Exactly. So some states have passed what's called the Salary History Ban. The thinking behind that is if marginalized groups are getting paid less than other people from the beginning of their career, and every time that they get a raise, if that's always based on that original salary, well then, the gap will compound over time and will never catch up. So you can decline to respond, or you can be abstract, or tell them how much you got paid, but listen, that's not relevant to the ask now.

Claire Wasserman: I mean, even think about this, look at the original job description, write a new one for what you did. You're going to see a lot of changes. You're going to see experiences, growth, maybe totally different work that you ended up taking on. So the salary that was originally given to you was based on what you knew then. Regardless of what this next job is, and the market research, just know for yourself that you have grown by leaps and bounds since that first salary.

Bobbi Rebell: Number three, "You want to talk about the whole picture."

Claire Wasserman: Yes. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability, full compensation. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Claire Wasserman: So I would say, "What are the top one, two and three items for full comp you can bring up?" I would personally bring it up after the salary conversation is over, only because I don't want them to use your full comp ask as leverage to get that salary down. And you want to ask for this, regardless of whether or not it's a pandemic, just be prepared that you may need to ask for more things, more full comp, if a time like now, if they're not saying yes to the salary.

Claire Wasserman: If you're wondering, "Well, Claire, if they don't have the money to give me a salary bump, how are they going to afford to give me a signing bonus, or pay for me to go to a conference?" A lot of times these come from different budgets. I know so many women who were not able to get the salary they wanted, but the signing bonus actually got them to a place where their now annual salary was exactly what they wanted to begin with. And that was simply because different budgets from different departments.

Claire Wasserman: So if you don't ask, a hundred percent, you're not getting. Again, the worst thing that can happen is they say, "No," which in my mind is really a, "Not yet." And then you can continue the conversation later.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that. A "Not yet." Not a "No." Are there benefits that have evolved during the pandemic that people may not be aware of, that they can ask for?

Claire Wasserman: Well, make sure that you're getting cell phone and internet and anything that requires you to do work from home, which by the way, I think most of us are doing, or a lot of us are doing that.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh yeah.

Claire Wasserman: I wonder if it can even be your laptop, paper, pen, I mean, really pretend you're a freelancer, to be honest. Your overhead costs, they should be paying for. If you want to continue flexibility, you've really proven now to them that it is possible. So if this fits for your lifestyle and you want to do a hybrid model, be prepared to ask, and you can make the case, I think, pretty easily.

Bobbi Rebell: Is that something you should ask before you start, or is that something that you should wait? Because traditionally, people often said "Go in 100% and be extremely present. And then once you prove yourself and they know you and they trust you, then you can ask for a hybrid approach." What's your take on that?

Claire Wasserman: Yeah. I mean, if this is a deal breaker for you, then you definitely want to bring this up maybe during the interview, otherwise you're wasting your own time along with theirs. You can also ask open-ended question of, "Do you have a hybrid model? Are there other people doing this? I'm just curious." So you can get a sense from the very beginning of their openness to the conversation.

Claire Wasserman: And then in terms of proving yourself, sure, but just to remember that it's not necessarily all or nothing. You can ask for maybe once or twice a month, or once a week, or something where they can see how this is going to go. And also proactively address all the reasons that they might be hesitant, so you're not just, "Hey, can I work from home?" And letting them tell you, "No, no, no." It's okay if you're concerned about team dynamic or communication, "Here's a way that we can address that." Just making it really easy for them to feel good about saying yes to you.

Bobbi Rebell: Exactly. And make it easy to say yes. The fourth way to get paid more is my favorite. It's about your value add, really.

Claire Wasserman: I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but making the case... So it's you say, "Well, Hey, I want top dollar." "Well, hold on now. You have to prove to me that you're a top performer." You don't get the money, because you deserve it, even though, I know you deserve it. And it's also not about, "Here's the work that I did," because guess what? It was your job. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company."

Claire Wasserman: Now, if you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, well, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. I mean, discounts with vendors, maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money that is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees.

Claire Wasserman: So if you're a part of contributing to the culture of the company, it means as much as if you were able to land a client, but you just have to make the case. Have testimonials too. So through all throughout the year, I mean, first of all, you should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review. I mean, not to put it so... It sounds not great, but that's the same thing. It's like, "Don't just take my word for it. Take Bob's word for it."

Bobbi Rebell: Okay. The fifth way to get paid more, this is something I think is very hard for a lot of women, because you tell them to be assertive, but you also have to have empathy.

Claire Wasserman: You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because we are, this is terrible, but there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating, put others before ourselves, be nice, be good girls, don't disrupt.

Claire Wasserman: Well, hold on now. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. Well, what's the chance that they're going to now look at you like you're aggressive? And women of color, I know you're nodding. This is something that they even more. So how do you address this? Well, you use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." But you've said your big number, I want to be clear. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together." Or, "I know this is a company that pays women equitably." That's actually shaming them a little bit.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that one.

Claire Wasserman: Or, "This is a company that is very fair. I'm sure we can figure this out together." And you can always, at the very end, just say, "Well, what would you do if you were in my shoes?" Bring it around. And do remember that we're all negotiating in this environment. They will, I think, automatically have empathy with you if you have empathy with them.

Bobbi Rebell: I don't want to let you go before we talk a little bit about your book directly. Like I said, it's called Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. What was your favorite chapter?

Claire Wasserman: I don't think I have a favorite chapter. I just have favorite stories. So for those of you listening, if you're not familiar with the book, I structure it by following the lives of nine real women from the Ladies Get Paid community. Each of them is going through a different professional challenge. And as I tell their story, I stop along the way, and I give advice.

Claire Wasserman: A woman who came to the second workshop that I ever organized about getting unstuck in her career, and all the way, for the next year and a half, she wanted to be in some kind of civic engagement role, maybe in politics. And finally, at a town hall that I hosted about reinventing yourself, she stood up and she declared to the whole room, "I have always wanted to run for office, but people who look like me don't run for office." And she was a young Hispanic woman. And this was in front of a room, this is a hundred women. She said, "But I am going to run for office."

Claire Wasserman: And everybody cheered. And I cried. I cried, because I knew her. I knew her since college. We were so excited for her, because of how brave she was. She declared that she was going to do something that she was probably not going to succeed at. She was going to be going against an incumbent who was 20 or 30 years older than her, of course, a white man. And so here she was, saying, "I'm going to do this thing. And the chances that I even seed are so slim." But that was why it was courageous, and that's why we were so moved by her.

Claire Wasserman: Now, of course, a year later, she wins. Then she became the youngest Congresswoman ever. And her name is Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. So that story is my favorite. I guess I just gave away the ending of that story. If that wasn't enough to have you read the book... Well, you'll read the book. I know you all will.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah, the book was amazing. And by the way, it's important to know that even though the title is Ladies Get Paid, there is a lot of general career advice here. It's really powerful. And things that you haven't necessarily heard before are very original strategies that I think will be helpful to everyone.

Bobbi Rebell:My favorite chapter, by the way, was in level up section, you have different sections. I love chapter eight, Get Allies, because I think it's so important to have allies in your corner. As you mentioned, so many jobs are never publicly listed. And so it's important to have people that are looking out for you. And it's not always your direct inner circle. Sometimes it's your acquaintances that can be so valuable in helping your career.

Claire Wasserman: I have never gotten a job that I applied to online. I think I maybe got an interview once. My whole career has come from relationships that I've built over time. They've also been strategic. It's not mutually exclusive to be authentic and have a genuine friendship while also knowing how both of you are going to leverage each other's strengths and connections. And that, again, has been the key, the key to men, the old boys club that exists for a reason. And so we have to create the young girls club. How about that?

Bobbi Rebell: Yes. Well, it's the everyone club, really. And you have to... One of my favorite stories was the last one that you share, which is Madeline, who really investigated and was very upset to find that the men in her company were making multitudes of what she was making. I was a little bit upset by what the ending was, but it was a big lesson.

Claire Wasserman: So that name has been changed.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes.

Claire Wasserman: Her story is in the New Yorker. You can all figure it out.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah.

Claire Wasserman: It is wild. It is even more dramatic than I put in the book, because my editor thought, "Well, the people won't believe this." So you know what? Truth is stranger than fiction, and I'm so honored by her and everybody else who so vulnerably shared their struggles with me. I think it goes a long way to showing folks out there that they're not alone, which is the first step, undo any shame that you have in order to be open to learning and to helping others. We're all going through something. It's so relieving. It's like you just alleviate this weight off of you when you share your story, and I'm just honored that these women did that with me and for you all.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. And thank you for sharing all of those stories. Tell us more about where people can reach you. We know the book is available everywhere. Where can people be in touch with you and Ladies Get Paid?

Claire Wasserman: I would love you all to follow me on Instagram. I'm @ClaireGetsPaid. You can also follow @LadiesGetPaid on Instagram, and join our Slack group. We've got 75,000 women from all over the world. They've exchanged more than two million messages since 2016. So very talkative in there, and it's free. So just join at LadiesGetPaid.com, and we'll add you. And thanks, Bobbi, for having me. I always love an opportunity to share my story, and as you can tell, I like to talk.

Bobbi Rebell: If you loved what Claire had to say as much as I did, I hope you will, first of all, go buy her book. It's great. And I also hope you will take a moment, while you are listening to this podcast, and take a screenshot of it and post it on Instagram Stories or other social media. And if you tag me @BobbiRebell1, that's B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L, and then the number one, you will be entered into our monthly giveaways. You can win books by our authors that are on the podcast, as well as merch from our new Grownup Gear store. You can see the merch, by the way, right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. You'll see it says shop grownup gear.

Bobbi Rebell: Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of the Financial Grownup podcast. So grateful for Claire Wasserman for helping us all learn to get paid like financial grownups. Bye, everyone.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Authors, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Get Paid More, Millennial Superstars, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest Userclaire wasserman, aoc, get paid more, political office, income, business strategy, ladies get paid, author
Business Breakups: How to know when it is time to go- and how to find your next move with author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig
Business Breakups: How to know when it is time to go- and how to find your next move with author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig

Jessica Zweig leads the thriving personal branding business: Simply Be. But the author of the new book "Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself” only got to this point in her life because she was able to exit a toxic business relationship that brought her personally and financially to rock bottom. Plus she shares an everyday money tip that will help us reach our goals during the pandemic, no matter what obstacles we are facing. 

Jessica’s Money Story:

Jessica Zweig-insta (3).png

My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had 100,000 local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship." And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth. It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch.


Jessica’s Money Lesson:

Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page.


Jessica’s Money Tip:

So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.


Bobbi’s Take:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships, and used the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. - This past week the dating app Bumble went public. Its founder,  Whitney Wolfe Herd started Bumble in 2014..  after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder, where she was a co-founder- after a breakup with another co-founder. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and is worth over a billion dollars. 


Financial Grownup Tip #2:

So many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic- in part because it feels like no one is watching. I mean after all. We can and do literally work in our pajamas. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time. Get an accountability partner. Get someone who will be committed to you- and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren’t doing that- break up fast and find another accountability partner. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy, but this more quiet time will come to an end, and the opportunity to get to your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste. 

Get your copy of Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself.

Follow Jessica!

Follow Bobbi!

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys, are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy t-shirts and we need to give ourselves an upgraded but still super comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

Bobbi Rebell: I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick me ups to to let them know it's all good and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost grownup friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales follow us on Instagram at our new handle at @GrownupGear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear you help support this free podcast.

Bobbi Rebell: The debt and the brokeness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would've if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We've got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Financial Grownup Podcast. We share money stories here that had big impacts on our guests lives and of course then they share with us the lessons from them. I'm your host Bobbi Rebell, Journalist, Certified Financial Planner and author of the book How To Be a Financial Grownup. If you're new here welcome. I'm so glad you found us.

Bobbi Rebell: So that clip that you heard at the top of the show was from author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig. Jessica has a new book out called Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. I have to say I love that title. The thing about Jessica is that if you don't know her you would never know all the things that she has had to overcome to well be where she is now that included a toxic business relationship that lasted for seven years. The breakup left her with nothing hitting rock bottom at age 33, even having to ask her parents for money just to pay her phone bill. Just when we think we will be hitting our grownup stride you never know what's going to hit us. There is a lot to learn from this remarkable woman and she does not hold back in this interview. Here is Jessica Zweig.

Bobbi Rebell: Jessica Zweig, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me Bobbi. I'm pumped to be here.

Bobbi Rebell: Well, I am pumped to have you here. Your book Be, I'm holding it up by the way, Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself is about to come out and it's your first book. Congratulations.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much. You know how much goes into it so thank you for saying that.

Bobbi Rebell: I really enjoyed learning so much about you and what you teach people in the book. What's interesting is you come across as having it all together which you do now I'm going to say but it wasn't always the case. You brought with us a money story that is sadly something many of us can relate to but often don't know what to do with, I should say that often don't know what to do about, and that is finding ourselves in toxic relationships personally and in business in work environments. Tell us your money story Jessica.

Jessica Zweig: My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had a hundred thousand local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship."

Jessica Zweig: And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth.

Jessica Zweig: It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch. Bobbi Rebell: When you look back were there red flags that you should have spotted in the relationship, in the business in terms of the skills that you both brought?

Jessica Zweig: From day one. I mean, there were massive red flags. I think I realized three months in just how different we were but we were young and we were so naive and we both really loved this business. This magazine Cheeky was our baby. And so I didn't want to give it up and she didn't want to give it up and at the core there was a magic connection with us. We wouldn't have created what we created if there wasn't that synergistic spark. And we both loved each other to a degree which was what made it so difficult.

Jessica Zweig: But there were red flags and it was honestly one of the most toxic relationships of my life. I mean, we were together for seven years and we were water and vinegar. We were just totally different people. And I'm not saying I was better or she was worse, we were just different. I've come to so much peace and love and honestly forgiveness for myself first in the way that I showed up in that relationship as much as her and how she showed up in the relationship which I think has really been a huge key to me soaring in the last few years because I really did my own work.

Jessica Zweig: I think it's so easy to point fingers at people when they burn us or they hurt us or they come after us. There's that expression when you point one finger at someone, I mean do it, you're pointing three back at yourself. So you really do have to look at yourself in any sort of situation but when it comes to money it's especially loaded and I could still be angry, I could still be bitter, I could still be resentful. I don't feel any of those feelings. And it was the greatest learning lesson of my life. I applied all of those mistakes, all of those failures to simply be and simply be is so successful and it wouldn't have been unless I had that seven year chapter and run of making all of those mistakes.

Jessica Zweig: So, I think that everything happens for a reason and I feel like the debt and the brokenness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would have if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. So, everything happens for a reason and divine order. It's happening for you not to you even though it can really feel the opposite in the moment. I wouldn't be who I am without that business and that failure.

Bobbi Rebell: Can you me a specific example of something that happened that highlighted your differences? It doesn't have to be your biggest fight or something but something especially money related that you just never agreed on.

Jessica Zweig:I think we were both pretty irresponsible with the way we spent the business's money. I really wanted to grow it and scale it and exit. I wanted to be that type of entrepreneur and she wanted it to be a more lifestyle business. If you're going to go into business with anyone whether it's a business partner or someone on your team or your leadership team to really understand those nuances and get everyone on the same page. Because it sets the foundation for the type of business and the rate in which you want to grow and how you want to operate and who you want to do business with so, so much. And we just didn't have the skills. We were so young. We didn't have the tools to talk about money and business at that level. We were green as grass. So, of course it netted out the way that we netted out. And we also were really done when we opened up our credit cards. She was the personal guarantor on the credit cards. It was just mistake, after mistake, after mistake.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. I love that you're talking about the fact that it is so hard to talk about money and it sounds like you guys didn't have a lot of talks about money and how you were going to structure your firm and how you were going to fund it before you started it. What is the lesson for our listeners as we put it all in context?

Jessica Zweig: Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken and I think actually way, way up and make the right decision to partner with the right people in the first place. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page. And yet money makes people funny no matter what and so you really have to recognize that in yourself and in the others and bring as much consciousness and integrity to those kinds of negotiations, conversations, whatnot.

Bobbi Rebell: I could talk to you forever about this but I want to get your everyday money tip because it's something that I am already implementing for 2021 and that is having accountability, having an accountability partner. Talk about that.

Jessica Zweig: Yeah. So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Jessica Zweig: And so, I brought in my husband who is a financial advisor, as well as you are. And his business had kind of slowed down, he couldn't go out and network, we were quarantining. And he's like, "Jess, I'll help you with the PPP." He took one look at my finance team and was like, "Dude, I can do this better." And so I fired my finance team and I hired my husband. And my husband and I have always obviously been partners and accountable to each other because we're married but bringing him into my business...

Jessica Zweig: He's now my CFO, he helps me run the shop, saving money, ensuring that our P and L's are always balanced, making sure we're net profitable. Having someone that I trust, obviously I trust no one more than my own husband but he has really allowed me to fly as the CEO because I know that he's got things covered. And we operate like a legit finance CFO to CEO. We take weekly meetings. He has an agenda. We run through every money in money out, hiring, investments, savings. We don't have any debt in our business. It's a really powerful person, obviously it's my own husband. But if you can have someone to pulse check you, to support you, to believe in you, to honestly be able to see the forest from the trees more than you can in your own project or business or money endeavor that is so key.

Jessica Zweig: And then another thing that I have done that has really allowed me to get out of debt and save money and feel really, really peaceful and abundant and my husband has helped me with this is we've set up an account. I call it my island account and it's a bank account we can only put money in. And if I needed to take money out I'd have to drive all the way across town in the worst hours, whatever. It's my island account. I can only send money to it, it can only grow. And I'm stacking my cheddar as my accountant once told me and my husband helps me ensure that money is being sent to that account every single month and that we're totally able to send that level of money over to that account and that's really grown our savings. My husband and I sleep well at night because of it.

Jessica Zweig: And so those are the key hacks that having my husband and having that account has changed honestly my financial wellbeing more than my finances but more of my financial wellbeing, which I think is key to vibrating at that level of abundance and attracting more.

Bobbi Rebell: That's such great advice. There's also a lot more great advice and I'm picking up your book now even though I know we're on audio and your book, okay I'm going to read the title Be, with a period, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. And I love the yellow cover. Yellow became one of your themes in the book so it transcends so much about you and your sunny personality. Tell us briefly about the book.

Jessica Zweig: So the book is a personal branding book. It's going to walk you through my trademark methodology of how to build your platform, the platform of you. Whether you work for yourself, or you work for someone else, or you want to one day work for yourself, having an understanding of what makes you you is an invaluable asset that you can take with you no matter what your job title is. That's number one. It's going to teach you tactically step-by-step how to do that from messaging, to strategy, to content, to social media, to PR.

Jessica Zweig: However, it is a personal empowerment book in fact disguised as a business book. Because I think at the core most people feel afraid to do that and to put themselves out there. And I say that my book is the permission slip and the reminder that you are worthy to be seen and to shine and to have everything you ever want. And it's my own journey in fact as well and my uncovering that truth for myself. And so, I'm right along with you throughout the whole book and you're going to take away so much tactical knowledge but at the end of the day I hope it inspires people to stop playing small and stop apologizing for their authentic amazingness. And that's what my book Be is about.

Bobbi Rebell: One of the recommendations in the book is to keep your social media and all of your public identifying names, et cetera, very consistent. So let's end with you telling us where people can find you on all of the social media because I know you keep it easy.

Jessica Zweig: I walk the talk as I say I drink my own Kool-Aid. So yes I am at Jessica Zweig on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, jessicazweig.com. You can also go to simplybeagency.com which is my company's website and find me. I'm really, really, really easy to find. I'm out there. So please come and say hi.

Bobbi Rebell: Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me. This was amazing.

Bobbi Rebell: Here we go my friends Financial Grownup tip number one, some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships like Jessica, and like Jessica they use the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. This past week the dating app Bumble went public and its founder Whitney Wolfe-Herd started Bumble in 2014 after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder where she was a co-founder after a breakup with another co-founder. And she's talked about it a lot, it was a toxic relationship for sure. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and worth over a billion dollars. What a great story.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup tip number two, so many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic in part because it feels like no one's watching. I mean, after all we can and do literally work in our pajamas, certainly the off-camera part. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time, get an accountability partner like Jessica. Get someone who will be committed to you and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren't doing that well break up fast and find another accountability partner who's a better fit. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy but this more quiet time will come to an end and the opportunity to get your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste.

Bobbi Rebell: One way to get motivated, get out of those PJ's. Realistically, I know we aren't getting dressed up but have some fun with your pandemic wardrobe. That's what I know I needed when I came up with a concept for Grownup Gear it is all about celebrating wherever we are in our journey to being grown ups which never really ends let's be honest. Check out the designs on my website, bobbirebell.com. Click on shop or just go directly to grownupgear.com. And please be in touch. DM me what you want more of on this podcast. I love your feedback. I put discount codes for Grownup Gear on my Instagram, which by the way is Bobbi Rebell one. And we did just start a Grownup Gear Instagram. We don't have a lot of followers so please come check it out. That's at @GrownupGear on Instagram.

Bobbi Rebell: So big thanks to Jessica Zweig, author of Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing You Self-Worth and Your Net Worth By Simply Being Yourself. Everyone check out the book and thanks again to Jessica for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Advice, Authors, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Financial Independence, Investing, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Startup, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest UserJessica Zweig, Business Breakup, simplybe, money stories, money, finance, saving, spending, stocks, debt, credit cards
Financial Grownup Guide: Gamestop lessons and reflections for investors
Financial Grownup Guide: Gamestop lessons and reflections for investors

Gamestop's meteoric rise and fall, and the roles Reddit, Hedge Funds, and Robinhood played in it, have many lessons for financial grownups. Bobbi explains what happened, and reveals what new data is showing that many news reports initially got wrong. 

In this episode, you will learn:

The real final gamestop insta.png

-What actually happened?

- Why did Gamestop stock surge?

-How does short selling work?

-What goes on in the online forums (like reddit’s Wall Street Bets)?

-What is a short squeeze?

-How FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) played into things.

-Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

-Who got hurt and why?

-What did we learn from this?

Takeaways:

#1 - While everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

#2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

#3 -Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

This is going to be a special solo episode and we are going to talk about the Gamestop phenemonon that happened recently that has gotten a lot of you interested in how the stock market works, how the companies that hold the money you invest in stocks work, and most of all, how you can make money by buying stocks. 

Here on the financial grownups podcast we normally share money stories that impacted our lives and the lessons from them, or tips and tricks to improve your financial situation but today we’re breaking format because what happened recently with Gamestop, and a few other stocks, and Robinhood and some other brokerage firms really changed the game for a lot of people. 

Here’s what we are going to cover:

What actually happened- why did Gamestop (which is a company that wasn’t doing well). suddenly have a surging stock?

How does short selling work?

What goes on in the online forums, like reddit’s Wall Street Bets?

What is a short squeeze?

FOMO- fear of missing out- how that played into things…

Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

Who got hurt and why?

What did we learn?

So let’s start with what happened. Gamestop’s actual business, which is primarily selling video games in brick and mortar retail stores, was not doing well. So a lot of professional investors, including hedge funds, were betting against it, doing something called short selling. And by the way- this happened recently with a few stocks but we’re just going to talk about Gamestop here. 

What is short selling. Essentially- the investor goes to the broker and borrows the stock. They turn around and sell that stock to someone else. So they don’t have the stock, but they do have to return it to the broker. The goal is for the stock to go down between the time they sold it to someone else, and the time they have to buy it back, to return it back to the broker who lent it to them. Short selling is super risky because if the stock goes up- it absolutely has to be bought to give back to the broker. Since there is no limit to how high a stock can go, there is no limit to how much the short seller can lose. In other words- don’t go there unless you really know what you are doing. 

While this was happening, the stock started getting talked about on reddit, in particular on a page called Wall Street bets. They noticed that the stock was heavily shorted- and that there was a big change at Gamestop- some new members of the board. One in particular, Chewy Co-founder Ryan Cohen got noticed because he had a lot of digital experience- something Gamestop really needed. That combination got the Wall Street Bets folks to pile into the stock and cause it to rally. 

Next topic: The short Squeeze. Remember all those Wall Street professionals that had shorted the stock? As the stock rose, they were seeing that the price to re-buy the stock they had shorted was skyrocketing and they had to cover their bets.. by buying the stock… which set in motion this seemingly accelerating rise in Gamestop stock-

Then came the FOMO- fear of missing out. As news reports of this were coming out, more and more people wanted in on the action, and things started to get out of hand. Plus the whole thing took on a larger meaning because of media reports that  all these little guys banding together- there were more than 5 million folks on that reddit page- and the word was they were beating these big professional hedge funds. Everyone was talking about it. 

Now let’s talk about the brokerage firms and one in particular that gets a lot of attention: Robinhood. Amateur investors can go on Robinhood and trade for free. Robinhood has had it’s share of controversy in the past, but that’s a whole other podcast. In this case, Robinhood started to get worried- and, citing extreme volatility stopped allowing it’s customers to buy the stock- though they could still sell it. So keep in mind, Robinhood’s customers are generally individuals. The professional investors who were not dependent on Robinhood could keep buying and selling. The optics were not good. Some people thought they were doing it to protect the Wall Street pro’s from losing too much money. Politicians cried foul, and people lawyered up. 

As the dust settles - there is another dramatic twist. University of Chicago law professor Todd Henderson, says the pros saw what was happening and basically piggy backed on the little guys. 

He studied the data from that time. And while there was a burst of retail activity-  he says in a cnbc piece- eventually it was actually the big guys- against the other big guys. According to Henderson, hedge funds purchased stock and held it. This created fewer shares for short sellers to borrow in the market, and that squeezed the number of possible shares available to be loaned, making it harder for short sellers to bet against the stock. The desperate short-sellers needed to find new shares to borrow but supply got constricted.. If you are not following at this point- that’s kind of the point. It’s complicated. And it is not for amateurs. 

And that brings us to who got hurt and why. So yes, hedge funds and one in particular got hurt. As I write this, Gamestop’s gains have almost all disappeared, so a lot of people who bought it will likely sell it for a big loss. And they probably won’t talk about it. Especially with all the bragging going on about how much their friends and family made on the rise up- assuming they sold it at a profit. FOMO can cost you. 

So finally - what are the lessons to take away from all this?

Lesson #1 - while everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

Lesson #2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

Lesson #3 Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

As for my take, it’s never a good feeling to know that many well meaning people took risks they didn’t understand and lost money, I am glad that this got so many non-investors interested in learning more about the stock market. And even though that interest was motivated by momentum driven trading, my hope is that eventually that will evolve into learning about thoughtful, intentional and strategic investing, that will help all of us reach out grownup financial goals. 

Thanks everyone for joining me- for more money tips and advice- plus lots of giveaways please go to my website bobbirebell.com and sign up for the grownup list. 

I love bringing you this podcast and it is and always will be free to you but there are a number of ways that you can support the show if you enjoy it. 

Number one- tell a friend about it. 

Number two- take a screenshot and share on social media

Number three- write a review on apple podcasts

And finally- do a little responsible shopping on my grownupgear.com website. It’s got t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags and more- all tied to being grownups. The products make great gifts, for friends, family and co-workers, and even for yourself. 

Thanks everyone, for joining me and for being financial grownups. 

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Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

 
Advice, Business, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Financial Independence, Investing, Money, Personal FinanceGuest Usergamestop, wall street, stock market, robinhood, stocks, reddit
How to hold down two dream jobs at once with Cosmo Op-Ed Editor and novelist, Jessica Goodman
How to hold down two dream jobs at once with Cosmo Op-Ed Editor and novelist, Jessica Goodman

When Jessica Goodman landed a book deal, and later a TV deal for her debut novel “They Wish They Were us” many people though she would go full time on her side-hustle. But Goodman says that was never the plan, and explains why and how she blends the finances and demands of her two dream jobs.

Jessica Goodman -Insta (4).png

In Jessica’s Money Story she shares:

-How she started writing her e first book, “They Wish They Were Us.”after having the idea for years.

-How she researched what is involved in selling a book to a publisher, including getting an agent

-How she kept her employer, Cosmopolitan Magazine informed and supportive of her book writing side hustle

-How an advance works for an author, including the tax implications

-What she wishes she knew about being an author and how much they are paid before she wrote and sold the book

-How she was able to adapt her schedule to both her full time job at Cosmopolitan Magazine, and writing books

-What you need to know about how a full time job works compared to being a self-employed author, including quarterly taxes

-When you should think about bringing in an accountant.

In Jessica’s Money Lesson you will learn:

-Why and how you should re-evaluate the way you think about money

-The best strategies to manage money when you are paid inconsistently in chunks

-How she and her partner adapted their spending during the pandemic

-How to resist it when people who care about you give you bad financial advice

Jessica’s Money Tip:

-Even if you live in a small space it can pay to buy in bulk during quarantine (and maybe after!)

-Think of non-traditional items that you would not have used as much at home- like buying wine by the case

-Tips about ordering groceries online including having the heaviest items delivered

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. If you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.


Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Get a system going and understand that you might miss out on things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.


Episode Links:


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  • Twitter - @bobbirebell


    Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Full transcript of show:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees. Much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Jessica Goodman:

When I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. You publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey friends, do you have a passion project or a side hustle? One you dream of doing full time one day and maybe getting to ditch that day job? Well, Cosmopolitan's Jessica Goodman had a passion project that she was quietly working on for years. And that was to be an author. Her debut novel, a murder mystery set in an elite private school called They Wish They Were Us ended up being such a hit that it is now being made into a TV series, starring Halsey and Euphoria's Sydney Sweeney. Fast-forward and Jessica has now scored a book for a second novel that is already coming out this summer. So all systems go on the dream career, right? Well, not so fast. To the surprise of quite a few people in her life, rather than ditch, she doubled down, staying on a Cosmopolitan magazine where she is currently the op-ed editor.

Bobbi Rebell:

In our interview, Jessica shares why she is sticking with the day job, goes through exactly how she manages her time and gets candid about what she wishes she knew about before diving into the book business, including, well, a lot of tech stuff. For those of you new to the Financial Grownup Podcast, welcome. I'm so glad that you are here. We talk with financial grownups here about money stories that impacted their lives and the lessons learned from those stories. We also ask them to bring along an everyday money tip that we can put to work right away. Spoiler alert. Jessica's has to do with how she and her partner buy their wine. So stay tuned for her tip on that. And with that, let's get to this week's interview. Here is Cosmo op-ed editor and author of They Wish They Were Us, Jessica Goodman.

Bobbi Rebell:

Jessica Goodman, I'm so excited to finally have you on the show. You are definitely a financial grownup. Welcome.

Jessica Goodman:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

And happy 2021, a year when your second, soon to be bestseller is going to be released. Before we get into your money story, tell us a little bit about each of your books just briefly.

Jessica Goodman:

So my first book, They Wish They Were Us came out in August and it is a young adult thriller that follows a high school senior, Jill Newman, who is in a very exclusive society within her Long Island prep school. And at the beginning of the book, she is reflecting on the fact that her best friend died when she was a freshman and she was also part of this society. And soon after the book begins, she starts getting text messages that say that her best friend Shayla didn't die the way that everybody thinks she did. And so what follows is kind of a whodunit, murder mystery set in this very exclusive prep school. And it's really an exploration of privilege and friendship and peer pressure. And I kind of like to say that it's like Gossip Girl meets Pretty Little Liars, meets A Secret History. It's really fun. And it's being adapted into a TV series, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey. So if those people are on your brain, I think you might enjoy.

Jessica Goodman:

And then I also have a new book coming out this summer. It's called, They'll Never Catch Us. It's currently available for pre-order wherever books are sold. And it is also a young adult thriller about two super competitive sisters who run cross country. And they're both trying to be the best on their team and in the state. And they threaten to kind of lose the number one and two spots when a new girl comes to town. And then soon after she arrives, she also disappears. And everybody in the town begins to suspect that the sisters had something to do with it. So that's where my brain has been for the past couple of months, which is really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is really exciting. What's amazing to me, and I think our listeners will really enjoy hearing about this is while you are doing this, this is actually really a side hustle to your primary job. You have been in a number of different positions at Cosmopolitan magazine. You're currently the op-ed editor. Did I get that right?

Jessica Goodman:

You did. And I'm very impressed that you didn't trip up over the ed editor because I always do when I say it out loud and I have to be like, oh wait, no, this is my job.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is your job now, you are still working there with one book out, another one on the way. So for your money story, I've asked you to kind of talk about how that happened, especially the money-related decisions that you had to make along the way to make this happen. Having a very full-time job at Cosmo. And then on the side, writing this book. It was a lot of choices you had to make I would say. Tell us your money story.

Jessica Goodman:

Definitely. Yeah, so many choices along the way. When I started writing the first book, They Wish They Were Us. And I really started writing it in earnest after having kind of dabbled with it for many years. In earnest, I started working on it in like 2015, 2016. I would say. I didn't get to the point where I thought I could actually sell it and be a professional author until maybe like 2018. And that's when I got connected with my agent and we started working towards being able to sell it. But I did a lot of research into how one becomes an author. I was literally Googling like, how do you publish a book? Like, how do you find an agent? Like what is a book advance? Like all of these kinds of really basic questions that I just had no idea what it was all about.

Jessica Goodman:

And I basically found out that it's really, really, really difficult to publish and sell a book. And that be your sole income or your sole career, like one book basically. And so it was never really an option for me to quit my ... Like I never thought about quitting my jobs in journalism while I was trying to sell the book. So it was always just like, how can I make both of these dreams come true at the same time? And so we sold the book, They Wish They Were Us, in the fall of 2018. And we got an advance, which is what they call the income that you make from selling your book. And publishers usually split it up into a few big chunks. For mine, it was like, I got a chunk of money when I signed the contract, a chunk of money when I turned in the book and then a chunk of money when the book came out. And when, at least when I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. It's like you publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case. And it's certainly like a fantastic thing to have of course, but it's not the kind of financial gains that I originally thought it would be. And I think that a lot of people think about when they think of like someone getting a book advance. Like I said, it was always like a no-brainer that I would keep my job, but I really had to learn how to prioritize both jobs to be able to do them well. So my schedule when I'm being my best self is that I write in the morning before work, usually from seven to nine. And then I do my job from ten to whenever. And then I write on the weekends as well. It's certainly hard at some points, especially at my job at Cosmo, I cover the news, especially like elections and special elections and anything relating to, like having to do with politics. So obviously this past year was hard to balance everything.

Bobbi Rebell:

Were you open with your bosses about these efforts, or was it something you kept private?

Jessica Goodman:

When the book deal actually happened, I went in and told my boss, hey, I just want to give you a heads up that like this happened and it's not going to affect the work that I do here. Like, I really wanted to make sure that they knew that I wasn't about to quit basically, that I was just like, this is just something that I'm doing for myself and my personal dreams. But like, it's not going to affect my work or my productivity here. And I just wanted to give you like a courtesy heads up basically. And everybody was really supportive and they have been really supportive of the book. And so it's been lovely honestly, but I definitely have heard some horror stories at other companies. But I think when you work in a field that's somewhat like adjacent to whatever your side hustle is, it does make it a little bit easier for people to understand why you might be doing something or how it won't interfere with your responsibilities.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you wish you knew in terms of the book business and the financial aspects of it? What do you wish you knew ahead of time? You mentioned that you get the bulk payments and you kind of had this idea as a child that authors become millionaires.

Jessica Goodman:

Yeah, I think something that I definitely wish that I knew was like taxes. Like I think if you're like me and you've really only had a job that you get a salary and benefits from your employer, it's really difficult to self-manage money that comes in chunks, whether you're a freelance writer or you're your own boss and you're not part of like a company. I think it's really difficult to know things like, oh, I have to pay quarterly taxes on this income. Or like, oh, I don't know how much money to put aside from this advanced check that I got, because that advance doesn't reflect the taxes I need to pay on it. So I ended up working with an accountant because I had no idea how to navigate this on my own. And I wanted to make sure that I was doing everything by the book.

Jessica Goodman:

And I wasn't going to get dinged at the end of the fiscal year because I have heard horror stories of people getting, like a $100,000 of their advance, spending it, and then not realizing that they needed to pay however many tens of thousands of dollars of taxes on that. And like, oh my God, what a nightmare. Or even realizing that I had to pay quarterly taxes on like freelance income was the real shock to me. So I got an accountant kind of like late in the game, I would say. And I wish I had got one, like even before the first check came in to like really help me navigate that.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson for our listeners, from this story? What's your advice to people thinking about whether it's writing a novel or any kind of side hustle where they're going to have to hold on to their job?

Jessica Goodman:

I think for me, it was really reevaluating the way that I thought about money. Like I think after having been in jobs where like I got a salary check every other week. That was like, okay, like I know what my monthly expenses are. I know how much my rent is. I know how much my utilities are. Like, I know how much I spend on groceries. Like all that stuff that they tell you. And I knew how to manage that money. Like I knew how much I might be able to save, how much I would need to pay my credit card bill, like all this stuff. But when you get these like big chunks of money, or even just smaller chunks of money from like freelance gigs or whatever, I think it can feel really tempting to just kind of spend it immediately. Even if you're the type of person who is really invested in saving and planning for your future, I think it's hard to conceptualize like how much money you might need for stuff. And especially this year, when I wasn't interested in spending a lot of money at all, based on the kind of times we're in, I splurged on a few things and those things I was thinking about them before we hopped on the call. Those are the things that I really splurged on this year where I turned 30 and I bought myself $80 worth of oysters that were shipped from Cape Cod and an oyster shucker. And that's how I spent my 30th birthday with my partner. We shucked like 50 oysters and save the additional, however many for the next day. And it was such a treat and it was so much fun and something that I'll remember forever. And I bought myself a $90 tie dyed sweatsuit because I am a millennial and on Instagram and it just looked really cozy. And those were like my two big splurges of the year.

Jessica Goodman:

And I know a lot of people, when they get like a book advancer or kind of achieve these really big milestones, they're like, I'm going to buy myself a really expensive piece of jewelry or a fancy handbag, or even like house or whatever. And I mean, I think all of those things are fantastic, but for me, the lesson for me, the lesson here was like, all right, I don't really have anything that I'm ready to splurge on that big right now. I really want to like, save all of this money as much as I can. And those are the things I'm going to splurge on, like oysters and a tie dyed sweatsuit. And knowing that like my big splurge might come later. Like I am saving up to buy a house with my partner. And I think that like my book advance will of course go towards that.

Jessica Goodman:

But realizing that like, I didn't need to spend it all right away I think was a huge revelation, especially because so many people were like, what are you going to treat yourself to? Like your book just came out, like, what are you going to do to mark the occasion? And I didn't really do that much because it just didn't feel right for me. Those were my splurges.

Bobbi Rebell:

I love it. I love the idea of oysters. So tell us your everyday money tip.

Jessica Goodman:

Oh yes. Okay. So this is one that I really got to be obsessed with during the pandemic. Like I am not the type of person that should or would traditionally buy in bulk. Like I live with one other person. We live in a one bedroom apartment. It's very small. We don't have a lot of storage space, but this year I became the kind of person that buys in bulk. Obviously, so many people are doing this during the pandemic, but I don't think I really realized how much you actually save when you buy in bulk and you know what you're going to use in those bulk quantities. And I think the pandemic has really shown people like what they actually use and what is actually important to them. And so for us, like there were a few things that really changed the way I thought about this. One was I started doing like subscribe and save Amazon paper towels and toilet paper. And actually I had done this pre run out of toilet paper in like March moment. So I pat myself on the back for knowing that would be a thing.

Jessica Goodman:

But I think I did the math recently. And it was like if I were to buy a few rolls every time I went to the grocery store, I would spend nearly twice the amount that I do just doing subscribe and save and having them shipped directly to my house. And even though they just sit in boxes in like a corner of our apartment. Because again, small one bedroom apartment, I think it's like totally worth it for us. And the other way that I found this to be really useful was we started buying our wine in cases, which a year ago I would have said like, are you okay? Like what's going on here?

Jessica Goodman:

But my local wine shop, they started offering a 15% discount if you bought a case of wine. And so we basically did the math and we were like, well, we'd be losing money if we didn't do this. And we don't go through them that quickly. I mean, it's no brainer how much money you save. We started looking for ways that you could buy in bulk and save like that. Like the fancy coffee shop near us. If you buy beans in bulk, it's like the same thing. And all these companies now do like subscribe and save membership things, like there's so many coffee ones where like every week they'll send you a bag of beans or whatever. And I think like looking for those has really been super helpful for us and certainly cut down on how we spend.

Jessica Goodman:

The other thing about like this buying in bulk grocery shopping thing is I heard this tip from Carla Lalli Music who used to work at Bon Appetit and now is she's like a chef home cook person on Instagram and has like a fantastic cookbook. But her big tip was always like, if you're ordering groceries, like order all the heavy stuff that's going to be delivered to your apartment. So you don't have to carry stuff, especially in an apartment. And that has been so helpful to me too, where it's like, every time I do like a big shop online or Instacart or Whole Foods or whatever, I get like 10 cans of beans, because like, I don't want to carry that. Or like four jugs of olive oil or like four twelve packs of seltzer because yes, you're buying in bulk. And sometimes you can get discounts that way, but also like who wants to carry that stuff home?

Bobbi Rebell:

Definitely good to always make your life easier. Especially if you are paying those fees to have it delivered. You want to get the most out of that delivery fee. Jessica, thank you so much for being with us, tell us where people can find out more about you. We know your books are available everywhere. We don't know when is the TV series coming.

Jessica Goodman:

TBD on the TV series, but you can stay up to date with all of that info on my Instagram, which is @JessicaGoodman or Twitter @JessGood. And I also have a website goodmanjessica.com. Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. My friends let's do this. Financial Grownup tip number one, Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. And by the way, if you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.Financial Grownup tip number two, get a system going and understand that you might miss things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Bobbi Rebell:

I had so much fun talking with Jessica and her book was really, really a page turner. As I mentioned, it is a murder mystery. And for the record, I really was totally fooled. I didn't see the twists and turns coming. One thing that I've really loved during our forced stayed home time during this pandemic has been catching up on reading fiction and really getting lost in books. We're going to be giving away a few signed copies of Jessica's book to that end so please make sure you are on the Grownup list ASAP so you don't miss that. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you can sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell:

Now while you are there, please check out my big project that I have been working on. I am so excited to see what you guys think. It is the new Grownup Gear Shop. It's a passion project of mine, and I hope you guys will all support it. Podcasts listeners can get 10% off if you use the code “Jessica” within one week of this episode dropping. So just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you'll see the word shop, click on there. Check it out. I hope you guys like it. Big thanks to author Jessica Goodman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Advice, Authors, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Financial Independence, Journalists, Millennial Superstars, Personal Finance, Money, Podcasts, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJessica Goodman, They Wish They Were Us, bobbi rebell, new fiction books, new mystery books, new YA books, cosmopolitan, editor