Episode Description:

We all have our moments when we know we aren’t on track with our money values- or we see those we care about going off track. Dr. Megan Ford shares her strategies on how we can look internally at what is happening and how we can use those insights to help others.

Dr. Megan Ford’s Bio: Dr. Megan Ford is a financial therapist and consultant who is exceedingly passionate about helping individuals and couples find more balance and understanding in their relationship with money.

As one of the leading experts in the growing field of financial therapy, Megan has an interdisciplinary education and practice background, earning a Ph.D. in financial planning and a Master's degree in marriage and family therapy.

Megan also served as a President of the Financial Therapy Association (FTA), has co-authored a textbook, The Fundamentals of Writing a Financial Plan, and has published several peer-reviewed articles, including her own financial therapy model, the Ford Financial Empowerment Model (FFEM). Her research interests center on the dynamics of couples, including financial conflict and financial intimacy.

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

• Stackin.com

• How to Get Rich- Netflix

Follow Dr. Megan Ford!

• Instagram - @stackin

• Instagram - @moneytherapywithmegan

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• TikTok - @bobbirebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

Welcome friends. Today's show is going to focus on something I don’t like to talk about and that is bad money habits. We all have them. And they aren’t always obvious- on the surface, we talk about things like overspending or not putting enough money away for retirement. But what about being too conservative in our investment strategy. Or not spending on things we need to because we want to be frugal and “good”  and then finding ourselves in a bad situation in the future.  Or not taking a risk.. And then looking back with regret. 

On that note- Today’s quote was something I jotted down when I was watching a show called Open House and a designer was talking about how he finally was able to furnish his dream home and quoted his grandfather as saying:

”In order to have things you’ve never had you have to do things you have never done “ 

I like this because it’s not focused so much on material things as on having the courage to step out of your comfort zone and take a risk. 

Something to keep in mind when think about the choices we make - sometimes what we feel is expected of us, to follow the careful path is too careful- focus on what taking that risk can help you achieve. 

Speaking of moving out of your comfort zone- I was intimidated about interviewing this week’s guest. Dr. Megan Ford is a big deal.  But I did my best. Megan is a certified family therapist with a Ph.D. in financial planning, the financial therapist behind the financial wellness app, Stackin, and former president of the Financial Therapy Association, of which I am a member.

The interview is a little longer than usual because she was just that good.. I know you will love this conversation. 

Here is Dr. Megan Ford. 

Megan Ford, you are a financial grown-up. Welcome to the podcast.

Megan Ford:

Thank you so much, Bobbi. I am really excited to be here today with you.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, you are a “big get”, as they say, because you are a pioneer in the field of financial therapy. In fact, you served as president of the financial therapy association. Tell us more about you and your work and what you're up to now because you're also emerging technology with financial therapy,

Megan Ford:

Yes, so I, I'm busy. I'm a busy woman, but I can talk a little bit more about what got me into this evolving field of financial therapy, and sort of what I'm up to these days as well. So I am a financial therapist, And so how I position that is sort of working in this space between the technical side of finances and the emotional and relational side of finances. So my background is a little bit unique educationally. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, So that's what I, I got my master's degree in, and I recently finished my doctorate in financial planning, so I have this cross-disciplinary background that kind of allows me to look into both of these spaces with some level of clarity, so I think that really where I really. where my origin story, I think about money stems from is important when we're considering. like, how did you get here to this? this place of financial therapy? Why did you choose this path? I am what I would consider a textbook money avoider, Um, I had some early experiences growing up that maybe others I would relate to as well, Um, I had some moments growing up where I did not feel that math numbers, or you know, anything related to that ,money, was for me. I felt moments of confusion and shame and misunderstanding, and I and those were very early experiences that I think carried forward into just this kind of like. I don't want to look at this. I don't want to deal with this. I don't want to be associated with this subject of money numbers. So going into my master's degree kind of was holding on to some of that narrative, and just you know, the virtue of the kind of like happenstance. I. My, my graduate assistantship was working under a financial planning professor, and this, I guess this new field was sort of emerging at that time, and I like to say that I was kind of born into financial therapy, so that time of my life really gave me this new viewpoint on how much emotion is kind of there inside when we're thinking about our money behaviors are our histories, our financial past, and that those scripts, as we,

Bobbi Rebell:

Right,

Megan Ford:

as we call them, are so very present in our everyday lives, and in how we kind of have this, we take this perspective. Like more globally, what's happening in our lives and that's so present for us. so I think that you know it was very much a journey and getting from that point to this point, but what's really great is I think I was able to take this journey also with healing my relationship with money and feeling more comfortable in that space, so much so that I really decided to go out on a limb and get a doctorate in financial planning. It's very much a journey that continues. It's something that I have to resist against still, and I think that that speaks to the fact that you know we're we are ever. We are ever-changing, ever-evolving as humans, and we need to continue that work of financial wellness for ourselves, and that reflection of peace for ourselves as well.

Bobbi Rebell:

I could not agree more. And I I love your vulnerability and your honesty about it Because there's this perception that those of us that you know dedicate our lives to talking about money and trying to help people about money. There's a feeling that we are at the sort of end at the pinnacle of our journey. That our lives are perfect and we've got all the answers. In fact, we often have more of questions, and that brings us

Megan Ford:

Mhm

Bobbi Rebell:

to the topic

Megan Ford:

yep,

Bobbi Rebell:

that I want to steer this conversation towards, which is having positive money conversations About bad money habits. One bad money habit is ignoring money or thinking that there's actually an option that you can just have somebody else take care of your money. You can have somebody, actually, maybe execute transactions. But at the end of the day and this goes to the whole idea of being a financial grown-up, you have to own your financial situation. So to your point about this urge to ignore your money, that is a bad money habit. How can we have good conversations about that bad money habit?

Megan Ford:

There are so many things that we can do. I think one of the things that I land on first is we can't have productive money conversations with others. whether that's an intimate partner, whether that's a family member until we have a little bit of an opportunity to look internally at what's happening, I'm a firm believer in like know thyself before you can, you can really, Um, be super productive in that area with another person. So I think it starts there. I think it starts with examining and exploring your own money story. And what is sort of what baggage financially are you carrying around? still today? That would impede those types of conversations with other people. Um, that would maybe block you from understanding Their perspective that sometimes we carry around a lot of rigidity about finances and how it's quote supposed to go are supposed to be, or how we're supposed to behave. Um, I like to joke that money is one of the things that bring out that little judge in us. We're looking at other people and their money behaviors, and Um sort of what they decide to do with money Like, I think that brings up some judgment in many of us, and that can be that And be okay, But we just have to know sort of what to do with that, so

Bobbi Rebell:

Give us some examples. How we might be judging. How might we judge people with respect to money? What might be some real-world examples that we, so we can better identify it within ourselves.

Megan Ford:

I think I see a lot of times Ind the social media space when we're kind of like scrolling through and looking at what other people have or don't have or spend or don't spend. I think that's a really salient example of like what gets us caught up or trapped in Like, But they're doing that with their money, And maybe I should be doing that with Mine. Um, and so I think we look to kind of like external examples to try and give ourselves a barometer for what should be happening for ourselves, instead of really reflecting on what are my values, What are my beliefs about money, and what are my goals To? What's what am I trying to work towards? Because that's going to look different for every person, depending on who they are and what they're trying to move towards.

Bobbi Rebell:

So another example of that might be When it comes to shopping, you mentioned social media and we see what other people buy. We often can be very judgmental. We might say. Oh, they're not spending responsibly, and just kind of leave it at that and draw our own conclusions. But one thing that you have talked about in your work is asking questions, so this is not so much to social media, that might be to someone that you know, I r l. But, rather than judging them for their purchases, which may on the surface seem irresponsible and we can even take out the idea of whether they can afford it or not, But the behavior they're shopping. we tend to judge. Maybe, and this is, and you can expand on this. But maybe we asked them what was your favorite purchase And why? how did it make you feel?

Megan Ford:

Yeah, I think oftentimes when we do look at financial behaviors we think about kind of that judgment or that shame piece? Like why are they spending money on that? That doesn't make sense to me in my own head. And we do this with partners To we often have a partner who might be our financial opposite,

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah,

Megan Ford:

and so spenders and savers tend to kind of like, Um, come together because we admire different things about how that works in the other person. but You know, I think the questions to be asking when we see things, we see things happening financially with other people when we see them spending money in certain ways, would just Ee. to like to pause and reflect to ask. some questions may be internally, even externally as well, like what you mentioned. Like, what's your favorite part about you know? spending? I think that's a great and positive sort of reframe on what's happening with, Or maybe judgment around spending for other people, but I like to go back to some of the underlying things that might be behind this behavior because they're there. No doubt. Um, maybe how did they learn about the money we're spending growing up? What are they? What are they trying to cope with in their life right now? That might be expert Est, financially or through spending money? Are they trying to avoid something? Are they trying to heal from something? Um, So I think if we take kind of like, If we strip down the layers a little bit to really try and understand at its core may be what's happening here for this person we gain this new insight into. like, Oh, wow, like, there are some much deeper things that play when we're talking about money behaviors we're talking about spending, but also saving behaviors fall into this category as well. If you know someone who is, Um, you know very much, Needing and wanting to protect their assets. To you know, keep things very very close, Um, in terms of their, in terms of their money, they don't want to spend frivolously, They want to save, save, save, save, save. Um, That's indicating something is going on underneath the surface as well. questions to ask around. That would be you know. What's the meaning Of saving for you? Does that make you feel safe? Does that lend itself to feeling secure? Um? Does that is that a way that you protect yourself from something that happened in your in your past? Is that a way that you kind of work against what you knew potentially growing up? So there's so many lie deeper layers that I think we can access through just asking questions and having more conversations around what's going on underneath the surface.

Bobbi Rebll:

This is fascinating to me because on the surface we think of sort of a bad financial behavior as someone that goes out and spends too much and goes into debt, But it's also not necessarily healthy to be over-saving or over investing, rather than you know, living a balanced life, And it's important to identify those behaviors as well. Maybe not as urgent. There might not be as big red flags, but for example, there's different kinds of investing. Someone might invest in products that are too safe because they're so afraid, but they. I understand that they're not even let's say now, keeping up with inflation, or they might be having bad financial habits, like turning constantly trading, looking for the bigger better investment, or maybe getting information from sources that are less than reliable. Um,

Megan Ford:

Yeah,

Bobbi Rebell:

and I don't want to call anyone out, But you, you know where people are going on social media to get financial advice these days, and

Megan Ford:

yes,

Bobbi Rebell:

that's something that I think is worth a conversation. So how would you handle that? Tell me more about your perspective on sort of bad financial habits that might Look on the surface like someone's paying so much attention to investing. Isn't that great. But there might be some other stuff going on. How do we address that?

Megan Ford:

I think that there's you're. you're. You're pointing to some really good things related to like the darker side of perceived good financial behaviors. Like good and bad is a little bit, kind of maybe like black and white. And so I see

Bobbi Rebell:

Hm.

Megan Ford:

very much like what's in the gray space, but I think that you're pointing to some of the darker sides of perceived good or promoted money behaviors like make sure you get into the stock market and invest some of that money so that you can grow that that money over time. Um, you know saving, make sure you save, save save. We don't talk about some of the limitations or the darker sides of those behaviors that can actually Lead you into unhealthier territory. Like you're saying, Your, Your example of you know trading and Ou know taking a lot of risks with your finances. That's That's something that I think we need to remember Is just because we say something is a good financial behavior. There are aspects of that that can lead us to unhealthy places Over saving again investing and taking on too much risk versus what you know is the capacity you have. so I think that's I think. that's an important aspect to talk about too, when we're talking about financial behavior is. Yeah, there's There's definitely those darker sides.

Bobbi Rebell:

Are there tips you have on how to best address that? If you see these behaviors in somebody that you care about or you may be, you're recognizing it in yourself as you hear this.

Megan Ford:

Hm. I think if you're looking to address that with someone else, really getting curious is a point that I like to make sure to emphasize, because getting curious with others helps to keep the conversation open if we go into a conversation like that, saying like what are you? What are you doing or what's happening here or if you, if you go in with sort of an alarmist kind of tone, Um, that typically puts people on the defense. Um, takes the conversation off the rails. and where we're not really able to have a lot of productive dialogue. Then, at that point, because you know we're overly concerned, their Overly defensive and they're just you know, end up trying to prove why what they're doing is fine to us For the most part,

Bobbi Rebell:

It puts them on the defense. Yeah,

Megan Ford:

it does. it does. And so getting curious using curious, kind of language and questions. You know, I'm really wondering about what's happening with. Um, you know this investment process. Um, what's making you take Those steps in this direction and wondering, Kind of what's going on that's contributing to. Just walk me through the process of like how you're thinking about it so that you really understand, Um, from the person's perspective, who might be a little bit concerned about what's going on That you have a clear understanding of again, sort of underneath the surface what might be happening and then you can speak to that. Oh, Feel really concerned about ‘X’. Um, and so that that can open up the conversation to a deeper level, rather than just trying to. you know, Go tit for tat about what's right and what's wrong. Financially.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes, right, maybe they're taking risks that they feel they need to take because some external factor created a sense of urgency or panic that you can address separately. And what I love about your approach is that you're focusing on that issue, but you're also really still protecting the relationship. whether it's a partner relationship, a friendship, or perhaps a child. You're still keeping those lines of communication open, because very often we go in with that judgment we were talking about earlier, and that not only doesn't solve that problem, it doesn't address that problem. It also damages the relationship.

Megan Ford:

Yeah, and I think that that is one thing that we tend to think about with money and relationships is like. money is kind of the last taboo. In some respects, couples would rather talk about their sex lives than they would their financial kind of past,

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah,

Megan Ford:

or, or their financial kind of presence and futures. It's something that brings up so much shame and discomfort, And I can really kind of empathize with that because that's certainly a place that I came from with my own relationship with money as well, so I totally get it. Um, but right, it shuts down the lines of communication when we don't have these conversations when we avoid these conversations or when we bring the unhealthy kinds of narratives, or unresolved sort of narratives into, and we apply that to that conversation. So if I have the narrative, for example, that you know spending money is bad, Is negative will hurt. My financial future will hurt, and I might not know that consciously, but I'm kind of carrying something like that around with me. I am going to represent that in my conversations with other people, I'm going to bring that in. I might not say that directly, but the subtext will be there. It will

Bobbi Rebell:

Right,

Megan Ford:

present itself in how I navigate that conversation So right, having some skills and tools to be able to have more productive conversations. but even before that, being more comfortable bringing up the topic of money in an intimate relationship, Friends, family and partners is something that I'm glad is shifting with younger generations, but we, we still have a lot of work to do personally, and I think is a broader society about money conversations.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you mentioned skills and tools. I do want to give you an opportunity before we wrap up to talk about the way that you're integrating technology into this.

Megan Ford:

Yes, so I think this, this comes back to sort of the now thyself principle, M. and I think knowing thyself is a skill and a tool. But how do we do that? What kind of mechanisms can we use for knowing ourselves and our relationship with money better? Because honestly, that might be a very foreign concept to some people they're like. I have a relationship with money. What do you? What do? Sometimes it feels a little bit woo- woo still Today, not to you and I thankfully, but to others that might just not be something that they readily connect with right off the bat. So some of the work that I have been involved with recently it's a kind of ring at full circle is that I have been working with a fintech start-up called Stackin and they have created this wonderful financial wellness app that really focuses on helping you to explore your relationship with money. So kind of one of the first steps is getting in there and doing a money beliefs assessment, Kind of figuring really what money beliefs bring into these conversations with other people, Maybe into my own behaviors. How are they manifesting? And so giving you providing you, sort of this platform for understanding, exploring your relationship with money more thoroughly, and then kind of charting a pathway for you about how do I continue to walk this pathway of financial self-care? Learn more about myself as I am constantly also evolving to like we're not static in our relationship with money. So as things grow and change, how am I continuing to Pay attention to that part of myself, that area of well-being that so many of us just bypass, Um, and really giving us a way to track and one of the wonderful things that I love about the app is it's bringing together financial data with emotional data, so you're able to connect some of the pieces that you've never been able to connect before through a spreadsheet, or through maybe a like mint, or you need a budget. You know, it's the pairing of emotional and financial data that gives you an opportunity to reflect back and see. Oh, wow, two hundred dollars at H and M. How did I feel about that?

Bobbi Rebell:

Mhm.

Megan Ford:

I mean, I like that You know a couple of the pieces that I picked up. Those will be good for work. I love that for a Saturday night, but truly like, how do I feel about it, that purchase or that set of purchases? Did that bring me the happiness that I thought it would, And so, having that mechanism to reflect to kind of journal about that and then also access sort of a coach if needed, Um through a text, space platform is fantastic, or you know, getting that one on one with a financial coach to get you to that next level of financial well being, So I think it's an amazing thing that we can really utilize, and I think it's the wave of the future.

Bobbi Rebell:

I think every tool that can be helpful to us is definitely worth checking out. Tell us more about where we can learn more about you and be in touch.

Megan Ford:

Absolutely. So I'm on Instagram at money therapy with Megan and that's M, E G A N. And then you can find out more about myself and the stack in team at w, w, w, dot stackin dot com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much.

Megan Ford:

You are so welcome. It was such a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:

I love how Dr. Ford is integrating technology with how we feel emotionally about money- its not just math and that is a good thing. 

This week’s extra credit assignment: 

There is a new Netflix series starring Ramit Sethi called How to Get Rich- which is kind of a click baity title for a show that is actually more about getting to the roots of your financial and lifestyle priorities rather than what the title could imply which is that you will be rich just by watching it- you will have a rich life is really what it means. Bottom line: I’m a fan and enjoyed the series and I think you will too! If you are not already please get on my free email list for more financial wellness strategies. You can subscribe at bobbirebell.substack.com or look for the link in the show notes. Those are right on my personal website bobbirebell.com. If you are enjoying this podcast make sure you are following it and please leave a review. I’m insecure- I need the validation so help me out!

Big thanks to Dr. Megan Ford for helping us be financial grownups and invest in peace of mind. 

Bobbi joins Marriage Kids and Money host Andy Hill to talk about everything from realistic money discussions with kids, letting your emerging adults make money mistakes and preventing boomerang kids. 

Bobbi Rebell and Andy Hill review the following:

• The importance of realistic money discussions with your children

• Why you need to let your children make money mistakes

• The balance of gifting wealth and teaching your children the value of hard work

• How to prevent boomerang kids

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Follow Andy!

• Instagram - http://instagram.com/andyhillmkm

• Facebook - http://facebook.com/andyhillmkm

• Twitter - http://twitter.com/andyhillmkm

• Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/andyhillmkm

• YouTube - http://youtube.com/MarriageKidsandMoney

• Website - https://marriagekidsandmoney.com/

• Andy’s podcast episode featuring Bobbi
  

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Worried about your adult child moving back home? You're not alone! Boomerang kids are a group of adult children who move back in with their parents after going out into the world. 

John, a concerned parent of a teen, wants to make sure his daughter doesn’t do this! 

Author Bobbi Rebell joins me to share how we can get adult children to launch (and stay launched).

Bobbi Rebell and I review the following:

• The importance of realistic money discussions with your children

• Why you need to let your children make money mistakes

• The balance of gifting wealth and teaching your children the value of hard work

• How to prevent boomerang kids
  

As much as we try to do right, we all fall into some common money mistakes. Ash Exantus joins us with 3 to avoid, and a special challenge for ambitious grownups.

3 money mistakes to avoid

• Mistake 1: working hard for money- instead of letting money work for you

• Mistake 2: having the wrong number of bank accounts

• Mistake 3: saving money - you should actually invest first

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Follow Name!

• Instagram - @iamashcash

• Facebook - @AshCashExantus

• Twitter - @iamashcash

• LinkedIn - @iamashcash

• YouTube

• Website - www.iamashcash.com

• Max Out Your Income Challenge

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grown-up friends, a big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to write because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest, and it was a lot of work. But I really loved doing it, and I'm really happy with how it came out.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So I truly appreciate it, and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Ash Cash:
Instead of focusing on active income, meaning, working for money, we have to focus on passive income, which means that once we make the money, we use that money to buy income-producing assets and let those assets buy the things.

Ash Cash:
Then if we decide to continue to work for money, we just keep that cycle going. So that way, we're growing wealth, instead of relying on our physical labor in order to manage our money.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups because you know what? Grown-up life is really hard. But together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Grown-up friends, get ready to smile and be really excited about your money and the potential to have more of it. No get-rich-quick ideas here. You know I would not take you guys there. But today's guest Ash Cash Exantus is going to help us all see the money mistakes that we make and also provide some easy solutions that can work for all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ash Exantus, AKA Ash Cash, is often called the Hiphop Financial Motivator because he uses a culturally-responsive approach to teach financial literacy. He's also a speaker and a bestselling author of many, many books. We're going to talk about that. Lots of books, lots of money coming from books for him. He is also very much a financial grownup you will learn a lot from. Here is Ash Cash Exantus.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ash Cash Exantus, you're a financial grownup. I'm so happy I finally got you on the program. Welcome.

Ash Cash:
Thank you so much for having me, Bobbi. I appreciate you.

Bobbi Rebell:
We were joking before I started recording. I have been trying to get you on, literally, for years since we met at Shannon McLay's Financial Gym, which is now virtual, so hey, Shannon. So glad you're here. What have you been up to the last few years? You have, oh, I don't know, 11 books going on?

Ash Cash:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, just writing books and making sure people get their minds and their money right so they could live in abundance.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is apropos. Your company is called Mind Right Money Management. Tell us quickly about that.

Ash Cash:
Yeah. I think a lot of times people always think about the practical things as it relates to managing money, but they have to focus on a mindset first.

Ash Cash:
So when I started doing this work, I said, no, I can't. Everybody wants to lead with practicality, but the practicality is really the mindset. So mindset or Mind Right Money Management is really a company that teaches how to change your mind in order to manage your money the right way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is so important, and one of the important mindsets, it's also to understand that as grown-ups, we make mistakes. It happens all the time, and it's part of the learning process, and that it's a really important thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
You brought with you three mistakes that we grown-ups need to be aware of so that we don't make them. We probably are making a lot of them already. I mean, I know mistake number two is something I may be doing. I'm excited to hear what you have to say about it so let's dive right in.

Bobbi Rebell:
Mistake number one is working hard for money, instead of letting money work for you. Tell us more about that and what we need to be aware of.

Ash Cash:
Yeah. Number one, society, school, everything teaches us that we have to go to work, work hard. Then once we make some money, we buy things with the money, and then we continue that cycle of working hard, working hard, we put a little bit away.

Ash Cash:
But the truth of the matter is that if we want to create financial freedom, we want to build wealth, we have to change that relationship with money. Instead of focusing on active income, meaning working for money, we have to focus on passive income, which means that once we make the money, we use that money to buy income-producing assets and let those assets buy the things. Then if we decide to continue to work for money, we just keep that cycle going. So that way, we're growing wealth, instead of relying on our physical labor in order to manage our money.

Bobbi Rebell:
So give me a practical, real-world example of that.

Ash Cash:
Yeah. Young people are taught to buy a home first to live in, but you can house hack. So imagine a young 20-something-year-old or any age, to be a hundred percent honest, if they're saving to buy to become a homeowner, instead of buying a home to actually live in, you buy a home, a multi-family home and you rent it out. So now, immediately, you have achieved mortgage freedom because you live in one apartment, you rent out the other apartment, and then what you're renting that other apartment for pays for your mortgage and so now that rent is covered.

Ash Cash:
I wrote 11 books. Books are a great example. You write it one time, and so it took me active work for me to physically write these books. But after the books are done, you sell them over and over and over again. My first book, I wrote that in 2009, I still get checks to this day from something I did over 12 years ago.

Ash Cash:
So those are two high level and low level, if you will, examples of how I took active work to make money, but then now that asset is paying me over and over and over again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Mistake number two, this is the one that has me sort of second-guessing myself. Mistake number two is having the wrong number of bank accounts. I've never given it that much thought. Tell us more about how many bank accounts should we have.

Ash Cash:
Yeah. Everyone should have four bank accounts. Most people have the two. Mainly, people have one, they have the checking account. Some people have a checking and a savings account, but the savings account never accumulates anything because once they start to save, they get the buy one, get one from Macy's and then they charge so much through the checking account.

Ash Cash:
Everyone should have four accounts. You should have a spending account, and so that's the money that you allocate to spend money, and so whatever your bills, once you start allocating things, you want to have a bill account.

Ash Cash:
Let me back up a little bit. You should have a bill account first, and your bill account is where the money is going to go to pay your bill. So you should have a debit card attached to that bill account, everything should be automated, paid online.

Ash Cash:
You should have a spending account. You should have money put aside whatever the percentage is to spend, and that's in a checking account.

Ash Cash:
You should have a savings account, and that savings account is going to be for when you separate your budget from short-term spending, long-term, midterm goals. You should have a savings account and that money goes there.

Ash Cash:
Your fourth account should be a financial freedom fund. People call it an emergency fund. Words have power so we're not calling any emergencies into our lives so we call it a financial freedom fund. Every time you get paid, you should have a percentage of money that goes into your financial freedom fund.

Ash Cash:
But here's the kicker, Bobbi. Your financial freedom fund should not be in the same bank that you have your checking account. It could be a online bank. It could be a regional bank. I do not want you to have a debit card attached to it. I actually want you to make it so inconvenient that you don't even remember that you have this account. In fact, when you get paid, I want you to automate it somehow where the money goes automatically to that account and allow that money to grow. As that money grows, you use that to increase your wealth.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm processing all this, but, okay, I feel like I just got a homework assignment from you because I don't have my funds set up that way, and I bet a lot of our grown-up audience does not. So this is a lot to really think about and really incorporate into our lives.

Bobbi Rebell:
The third one is you lose money saving money. Invest first, save last.

Ash Cash:
Yes, yes, yes, and this is old advice. So I was a banker for 15 years, and I remember when I first started my career as a banker in 1999, that was the last time rates were probably like 4, 5% in the CD. Since then, you are, literally, losing money if you keep it in a bank. Especially now with the economy being what it is, I think inflation is over 7%, which means that if you're not at least making 7% in your checking account or your savings account, you're losing money.

Ash Cash:
When you think about investing, whatever investing means for you, whether it's index funds, whether direct stocks, mutual funds, whatever it is, if you look from a long-term investing perspective, the average is going to always beat inflation. So if we are looking to truly manage our money the right way by looking at or activating old advice, we're literally losing money.

Ash Cash:
So we have to invest first. Invest your money first. When I say savings, yes, you'll have that financial freedom fund because you want to have some liquidity. Things happen and so you want to have some liquidity, you want to have some cash available if things happen. But minus the financial freedom fund, let's start getting into investing as soon as possible. Because once you start investing, you take advantage of compound interests. You think about dollar-cost averaging.

Ash Cash:
You think about this year, stocks have been a rollercoaster. Some people get afraid at this time. But companies are, literally, on sale right now. So if you do what's called dollar-cost averaging and you're like, "You know what, let me start investing now," the companies that you would've gotten at $100 or maybe at $20 right now, you better buy them up. Then by the time the economy rebounds, your account's going to start looking nice, really, really nice.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it is important to dollar-cost average and to buy when you do see value, of course. I know you would also counsel people if you're buying individual stocks, make sure that they're down because of things like the overall market tone, not because of a company-specific reason so I just want to add that caveat in for people.

Bobbi Rebell:
What's the biggest mistake you think people made in the pandemic in terms of financially? Because it really threw so many people for a loop and a lot of us really, you talk about the stock market, we thought the market would crater during the pandemic, and it did for like a hot second and then it came right back. So I'm just curious to know your observations, what you're seeing among your clients and everybody that you work with.

Ash Cash:
Yeah. I think the number one money mistake that was made during the pandemic, we didn't pivot fast enough.

Ash Cash:
There's four types of people in the world. You have consumers, producers, investors and philanthropists. Most of us are just consumers, and I think that the pandemic gave us a great opportunity to become producers and investors, and we didn't pivot fast enough. We knew the world how normal it was, and we thought normal was going to come back where normal was never coming back.

Ash Cash:
So people got so used to meetings on Zoom and digital that if whatever our expertise was, if we jumped on it and said, "You know what, we're going to start providing that from a digital standpoint," there were so many digital millionaires made during the pandemic and I think that was the biggest mistake was that we were trying to hold on when it was time to kind of double down on our expertise and reach more of the world because everybody was home. Everybody didn't know what was next, and we could have reached our consumers faster had we pivoted.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we all need you on our side. Before I let you go, you have a challenge for our listeners.

Ash Cash:
Yes. So I have the Max Out Your Income Challenge, and it's, literally, helping people do exactly that pivot. Wherever you are in the income spectrum there is always that next level. So I've been able to max out my income through books, creating 15 streams of income from books. So if you go to maxoutyourincome.com, you could join the five-day challenge and take your income to the next level.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, congratulations on all, and thank you so much for joining us. Where can people reach you besides, obviously, we know where to get to that challenge, where can people reach Ash Cash?

Ash Cash:
Yeah. You could follow me or go to my website, iamashcash.com or follow me on all social media platforms at iamashcash.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love it. Thank you so much.

Ash Cash:
Thank you so much, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, grown-ups, I think we can all agree Ash Cash has a way of getting us newly re-motivated to take action on our finances. I think my favorite takeaway was when Ash reframed the idea of an emergency fund as a financial freedom fund. It just seems more optimistic.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was your favorite takeaway? DM me on Instagram at bobbirebell1 and on Twitter at bobbirebell and let me know.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thanks to all of you who have bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups. I have another ask, but it's a really easy one and it doesn't cost a thing. Please leave a five-star review on Amazon. You can keep it short and sweet, but having more reviews makes a big difference in getting the book discovered so we can help more people learn about money and generational wealth.

Bobbi Rebell:
Speaking of generational wealth, I would love to come speak to your company or organization and book clubs. I have some great virtual and in-person programs that you can learn more about by going to the Work with Bobbi tab on the top right of my website, bobbirebell.com. That's B-O-B-B-I R-E-B-E-L-L.com. You can also get show notes and transcripts of every podcast right on my website and check out my adulting merch store, GrownupGear for fun gifts. If you're going to graduations, bachelor and bachelorette parties, housewarming parties, birthday parties, whatever you're celebrating, we've got good stuff to give your friends and relatives. Super cute fun stuff to make everyone smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
With that, I wish all of you well, and especially a big thanks to our guest Ash Cash Exantus for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me and, you know what, it really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grown-up friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

In a special behind the scenes episode, Bobbi reveals how her own parenting challenges inspired her new book: Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart, and how it can help you. 

5 Secret Reasons I Wrote Launching Financial Grownups

• Reason 1 - I could not get my own almost adult kids to care enough to act and complete the money stuff I knew would be really good for them.
  

• Reason 2 - Things really are different for this generation.
  

• Reason 3 - Parents of my generation parented different up to this point which has had benefits and consequences.
  

• Reason 4 - The kids said they totally got it- but they didn’t.
  

• Reason 5 - I realized my dad was right about so many things, even though I didn’t listen to him at the time.

---

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

• Bobbi’s book - Launching Financial Grownups

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Grownups: this is a big week for me and I’m super excited but also really nervous. I’m also grateful for your support. Many of you have told me you pre-ordered copies of Launching Financial Grownups and are going to write reviews on Amazon as soon as the book comes out on March 22. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you in advance if you are putting this on pause to order your copy right now. Advance sales are a huge thing. 

And like a lot of you guys I have been struggling recently- In my case, we’ve been doing construction in my home and I don’t have access to my bedroom- slash- office- so I’m kind of a nomad when it comes to a place to work and I’m soooo far behind in terms of the ambitious plans to get the word out about Launching Financial Grownups. My husband and I also have had a really bad case of the flu- we’ve tested negative for covid so we think that’s what it is- and so I’ve been totally knocked out for days on end. And then of course-  watching the news it traumatic but I also think we need to be aware and be thankful for all we have- and family, friends and loved ones are at the top of the list. So when I say your support is priceless. I mean it. 

I’ve been mentioning this new book Launching Financial Grownups but what I have not done yet is really talk about WHY the heck I wrote it. So I wanted to share some behind the scenes secrets and insights into my own parenting and money challenges, and how I’ve dealt with them and I hope that can help everyone in this grownup community. 

Reason 1. I could not get my almost adult kids to care enough to act and complete the money stuff I knew would be really good for them. 

When I tried to get them to do things, like open a Roth IRA because they earned good money- they yes’d me but it didn’t get done. I gave them all the tools I thought they needed. They could use my advisor at a major discount brokerage, or they could use a robo advisor, or set up their own investment account or use an app or whatever. I offered to make appointments for them.. nothing was working. You can read more about it in the book but there was always something more urgent- and then the deadline came. In other words- I was failing! 

Reason 2: Things really are different for this generation. Some are really good- like being able to keep young adults on health insurance until they are 26 -but they have also have skewed our perception of when adulthood starts in terms of money and supporting themselves. Kids also have a lot to deal with- many have student debt, they have a lot of social pressure to live a certain lifestyle thanks to social media, they have less structure when it comes to careers thanks to the gig economy and so on. And also inflation - things are super expensive.  And so it’s no surprise that our kids don’t really feel like adults when they hit a certain age. 

Reason 3 We- my husband and I but also parents of our generation- parented different up to this point- and that has had benefits- and consequences. If we are being honest, many of us have prioritized our kids above all else and our strongest identity is as their parent. There were years when I had friends- actual friends- that I would reference as so and so’s mom. And now that they are teens and young adults  what I am seeing with me and some of my friends is that under the guise of helping them, we were sometimes  using money as a way to stay tied to our kids. I remember being lost when our youngest was old enough to get himself to school and his various other activities because I suddenly had sooo much time on my hands. And yes- that’s when we started playing golf more seriously! Joking aside- we are scared of losing of something that has been such a major part of our everyday lives- and keeping financial ties is a way to well, stay tied. 

Reason 4 The kids said they totally got it- but they didn’t. In other words, they didn’t know what they didn’t know. So what do I mean by this. Well, a friend recently told me how proud she was that her child bought their own airline ticket. The child also proudly said that they bought the trip insurance. And they were proud they did this without consulting the mom. But here’s the thing- they didn’t remember what was paid- they didn’t know what the insurance actually covered- and they didn’t check if the credit card they were using (or one that they could have used) carried insurance already so they didn’t even need to buy trip insurance. Think of it like a wingman- but for grownup finances. We need to let them lead but also be there to keep them on track and make sure they have all the info they need to make the best financial decisions. 

Reason 5 I realized my dad was right about so many things, even though I didn’t listen to him at the time. Launching Financial Grownups is dedicated to my dad for good reason. He did so many things right and it’s only now, as I struggle to help my own kids,  that I truly fully can appreciate them. For example: While he was always generous in giving me and my siblings money in college- he made us each sit down with him and present him with the amount of money we thought we would need for an entire semester, and why. And after that we were on our own. He didn’t ask for details - just a broad explanation of what we needed and what it was covering- because he expected us to manage the details on our own. We also all always had jobs- that we got ourselves. I worked at a bakery where I still remember the first $10 I made at the minimum wage job went to pay for a lovely yellow polyester uniform. I did gift wrap at a department store and folded clothing at a retail chain store. He didn’t micro-manage any of this- in fact I’m not sure he could tell you want any of our jobs were and that’s not a bad thing- because it was on US to have that extra spending money. He and my mom were not helicopter parents- but I always felt like they would be there with a landing pad if it ever looked like we were going to crash. 

There’s only so much I can cover in a podcast but there is so much more in the book. You can pre-order Launching Financial Grownups it in all the places but we’ll leave a direct link in the shownotes- and pls stay in touch by following me - and dm-ing me with your thoughts on the book and any questions you may have on instagram at bobbirebell1 and on twitter at bobbirebell. You can get on my newsletter list by going to my website at bobbirebell.com.

Big thanks and congrats to all of YOU - for being financial grownups. 

Let’s take the stress out of grownup life. Instead of lifestyle creep, embrace a lifestyle upgrade. Intimidated by the idea of building a full emergency fund? Just start with a short term crisis fund. Ashley Feinstein Gerstley walks us through how to be intentional with our money, and avoid information overload. 

Money Tips

• What you can do to prevent lifestyle creep.

• What is the difference between a crisis fund vs rainy day fund.

• Learn what a walkaway fund is.

• Learning the things you should and shouldn’t know in order to make things more manageable.

• Who couldn’t use some negotiation strategies?!

• Sinking funds - what are they and why should you know about them?

• It doesn’t have to be all or nothing

• Retirement does not have to be associated with age

• Riskiest part of investing is that we are human

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Follow Ashley!

• Instagram - @thefiscalfemme

• Facebook - @TheFiscalFemme

• Twitter - @TheFiscalFemme

• LinkedIn - @knowing-your-worth

• Website - https://thefiscalfemme.com

• Tanja Hester’s episodes HERE and HERE

• Ashley’s book - Financial Adulting

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm thinking a lot these days about financial anxiety and how much we all just want to feel secure about the future for us and, of course, for the people that we love. There's a saying, "You are never happier than your most unhappy child." And I would expand that to your most unhappy person you care about. I want everyone who hears this to be able to give the next generation the gift of financial security and the freedom that comes with it. That's why I wrote Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Money Smart. I'm excited to share with all of you and I hope it can help put all generations of your family on the path to reaching all of your financial goals and dreams. Order your copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. And thank you for your support.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
It was this moment where as a financial adult in a different stage, I was very frugal. I wanted to reach these money goals. There's this point where it's like, "When do I want to invest in something that will really benefit my happiness?" And it's not a cheap thing to get a babysitter every single week. But it's something that we did, an investment we made, and it has been so incredible. So that was a conscious lifestyle upgrade I made versus allowing like expenses to creep in.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Grownups, as I say, in the intro, being a grownup is hard. But you know what? There's so much great stuff that comes with being a grownup as well. And with, for example, we're going to talk about this, having a little more spending power as we grow into our adulthood and feel the confidence of being on track to our goals. And by the way, little tangent quickly. Speaking of goals, one of my goals is to start getting out and seeing more of you this spring and summer. My new book, Launching Financial Grownups, is coming out in just a couple of weeks. And if you, your company, an organization that you're part of, or just people in your life are looking for speakers or program ideas for this spring or summer, let's chat. Go to my website for more information, bobbirebell.com/speaking, to get in touch and for more information.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Let's talk about this week's guest because she is one of my favorites and someone who shares my passion for helping us all be financial grownups. Ashley Feinstein Gerstley is the author of the new book, Financial Adulting. It's a guide that breaks down everything that we need to know to be financially confident and conscious as adults. Ashley is also a money coach, author of The 30-Day Money Cleanse, and the founder of The Fiscal Femme, a money platform on a mission to end inequality through financial wellbeing. And as you will hear, I got so engrossed in our conversation that I actually lost track of the money tips that Ashley was sharing. Turned out there were nine and each one was really cool. Here is Ashley Feinstein Gerstley.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley, welcome back to the podcast. You are a financial grownup and you're also a financial adult.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So guys, I'm joking about that, because Ashley has a new book out called Financial Adulting. Nothing, by the way, like my previous book, How to Be a Financial Grownup. It's a very different take that I absolutely love. And so tell us about it. Welcome back.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Thank you. Financial Adulting. I'm so excited about it. It basically covers all of the money topics. And I interviewed 35 experts for the book. A wide range of diverse experts. I'd say part how to. Or mostly a how to, with some expose in there. So it's fun. I think I let some more of my humor through than I did in my last book. And I'm just excited for it to be out in the world.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know. And it has a lot of personality to it. And so I feel like we can kind of be with you on this journey. And also, there's a lot of data that is sort of jaw-dropping. I'm going to leave that to people to read in the actual book. What I did is when I went through, I kind of took some notes. And so I'm going to ask you to expand on some of the big themes that jumped out at me. Starting with, okay, this is one... And this is where you show your personality. You also show sort of the maturity of coming at money as a financial adult. You talk about the difference between lifestyle creep, which is something people warn against, and lifestyle upgrade. Ashley, so what's the difference?

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Lifestyle creep, I feel like it's more happening behind the scenes. Whereas an upgrade is very intentional. We're consciously choosing to add something or pay for something or do something in our life. I had an example recently. I was with my parents on a vacation in North Carolina and we had the two kids and it was kind of wild. We didn't get to do a lot of things because we were busy with the kids. And my mom challenged me actually. She's like, "I challenge you to get a babysitter every single Saturday." She said it would be life...

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
And it was this moment where as a financial adult in a different stage, I was very frugal. I wanted to reach these money goals. There's this point where it's like, "When do I want to invest in something that will really benefit my happiness?" And it's not a cheap thing to get a babysitter every single week. But it's something that we did, an investment we made, and it has been so incredible. So that was a conscious lifestyle upgrade I made versus allowing like expenses to creep in.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. All right. You also talk about the difference between a crisis fund, a rainy day fund, and a walk away fund. Talk about that.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes. So I would define crisis fund as like the minimum amount of rainy day fund we need in case of a crisis, something happening. Losing our job, a large health-related expense coming up, we want some cash set aside for that. Rainy day, I would say is a bigger fund than that. It's kind of like our ideal, what we'd want to have set aside. And I walk through in the book how to price it out, how much you want to have in there. But there's like the crisis minimum cash you want to have then the ideal. And then the walk away is actually to protect us in our relationships.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
And this was something that Dasha Kennedy, in my interview with her, talked about. That, especially women, having money set aside in case we need to walk away because in a time where 99% of cases of abuse include financial abuse. And so to have these funds available, without having to wait or put things on credit cards, if you need to get out of a situation is a very powerful thing. And so the walk away fund, she recommended six months of expenses to have, that you just have that cash available in the case you need to walk away.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's really important. Something I experienced when my marriage early in life broke up. I was really happy to have that financial stability. It was really, really important. Okay. The third financial adulting tip is knowing what you need to know, but also what you don't need to know to make things more manageable. This is about living in reality, not aspiration, right?

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes. And there's just so much financial information, right? There's channels. So many books, articles. I think we can get very overwhelmed in that information overload. And there's always more to learn and new things happening, and it can have us never take action. So knowing what we need to know and kind of filtering out the rest is really key to financial adulting, because then we can take action and take steps to move forward in our financial lives.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, you definitely can get that like analysis paralysis, I think they call it.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you just can't get anything done. It's almost like when you go to the supermarket and there's just too many choices. And sometimes it's better to go to a smaller store where there aren't as many options.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. The fourth tip is negotiating. Okay. When you're negotiating, one thing you tell people to do is to document your work along the way. And this goes to preparation, which can kind of be applied to so many different things and organization.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes. So I recommend keeping a success log. And this is actually something that happened to me. You have a big success at work or something goes well with the project and you assume you'll always remember that. How could I forget? That went so well. And then you go into your negotiation conversation or your year-end review with your boss or manager and you draw a blank. Like what did I even do over the last six months? What were the results?

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
So as you have successes, big and small, I highly recommend documenting them. What went well with a certain team? What was the result for the company? And then when it's time to go into that meeting, you have this laundry list of things that you accomplished. It's also really good for those down days where you're not feeling really great. You can read that list and give yourself a little pep talk.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also sometimes assume that our bosses know all the stuff that we did. But the truth is we often barely remember. The bosses forget it. They don't know. They're doing their best, but they're worried about their career. They are not taking notes to make sure that they do the absolute best review of you possible. I mean, some might. But generally it's better to have that covered yourself. Okay. I think we're up to five. The fifth financial adulting tip is let's talk about the concept of sinking funds.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
It's called a sinking fund probably because it's a fund that we build up to sink. So the point of it is to spend it. You can use them for all kinds of things. I recommend if there's ever an expense that tends to make your budget feel really tight or out of whack, and it messes up cashflow, and that could be... Travel is a very common sinking fund. A travel or vacation fund or a holiday fund. Or I have one for my dogs, medical bills, in case something big happens that I don't have to stress about money in case she needs something. So sinking funds are... I recommend putting them in an online savings account. Having each one have its own bucket. And transferring money every paycheck, every week, every month. Whatever cadence works for you towards that fund.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Financial adulting tip... I think we're up to seven. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes. This can apply to so many things. One reason we often don't plan for different goals or for different expenses is because we don't have all the information and we're not sure what it's going to be. Or when we're thinking about goals, especially really long term ones like retirement or paying for our children's education, there's so many variables and we don't know when we're going to die or what our investments will earn or what taxes will be. And so moving towards the goal, generally checking in is so much better than not doing anything because we can't know everything. So I think... And reaching a goal part way versus all the way is so much better than not reaching it at all. So moving towards goals and giving ourselves from grace for this like perfect number we have to reach.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, it's like when you're losing weight. If you try to lose weight and you want to lose 10 pounds and you lose seven, well, you lost seven. So it's okay. I mean, you can still work on the extra three. But you did lose seven, so you probably feel a lot better. All right. I've lost count. So we're on the second to the last one. Okay. Retirement does not have to be associated with age. And you do a nod to the FIRE movement, but it's not just about the FIRE movement, which is the financial independence, retire early. It's about really thinking about what the word retirement means.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
I think the word retirement comes with a lot of different connotations. And that's kind of what I wanted to have people reframe because we often don't feel connected to that goal, especially if you're earlier in your career because you think it is an age. So that's why in the chapter on retirement, I called it work optional, because that's really what it is. We're saving to have enough money to not have to work, to be able to choose to do a different kind of work, to have more flexibility. And that can happen whenever you reach that goal. And I think that makes it a little more exciting and a little more tangible when we're saving up for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it can also be a season of our life that we do that. And then we go back to doing maybe the same thing or maybe something different. And by the way, I do want to acknowledge that in the book, you do this too. That that is a nod to our mutual friend, Tanja Hester. She was on this podcast talking about her book, Work Optional. We can leave a link for that in the show notes, as we like to say.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, last one. I love this one the best, because it's about investing, the riskiest part. And this is epic that you say this because it's obvious and yet I don't think I've heard anyone say this. The riskiest part of investing is that we are human. I love that, Ashley.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Thank you. It's great to be called epic, you know?

Bobbi Rebell:
It is, but it's everything, because that's what it is. We are human. I mean, I remember the first time I was able to buy into... Not that it's happened so often. But I was able to buy into an IPO. And I thought I really had it emotionally managed because I'd been a journalist for years covering IPOs. And I knew intellectually how it works and how people react and the kind of mistakes people made. And I still was a wreck. I was an emotional wreck when that happened. And I didn't know what to do and it [inaudible 00:13:41]. And so I sold half to take it off the table and then it cratered. So I lost the other half, so I came out even. But let me tell you, I was so human in that moment. Even though I knew intellectually exactly what to do, I was just a wreck.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes. And you hear it over and over. Buy low, sell high. Invest for the long term. Don't look at your investments. But it truly is so different when it's happening, when you're in the moment, when you're seeing things on the news and people are saying, "The market will never be the same," or whatever it is. So some of the things to combat that, that we talk about in the book, is like investing for the long term. Not needing the money in the short term. Not looking. Understanding that we don't actually lose or make money until we sell the investment. So that's also helpful to remember, because I think there's always like, "Oh, I made $500 today," or "I lost $5,000 today." And that's not really the case. It's [inaudible 00:14:39] all the case until you actually sell is when it's a realized investment.

Bobbi Rebell:
And don't forget, you will pay taxes, which you also do cover very well in the book. All right, let's wrap this up, my friend. Tell us where we can find out more about you and Financial Adulting, the book?

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
You can find more about the book at financialadultingbook.com. And follow along me and the rest of the things going on at The Fiscal Femme.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know they say save the best for last. But my favorite tip was actually the first one about lifestyle upgrade as opposed to lifestyle creep. As we can see from all that is going on in the world, from COVID to war, it is important to remember that while we want to be thoughtful about planning for the future, we must live our lives in the present as well. And be so appreciative of all that we have and we should never take for granted, including our health and being able to live in a peaceful country. Nothing is guaranteed.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please be in touch with me. I would love to hear from all of you, what resonated with you about my interview with Ashley? You can DM me on Instagram, @bobbirebell1. And also, be in touch by being part of my newsletter. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, to sign up for that. Make sure to check out Ashley's book as I mentioned, Financial Adulting. And thank you so much to Ashley Feinstein Gerstley for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free. But I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on Twitter, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

After being stuck at home for more than a year, many of us are ready to spend! This week’s Financial Grownup Dr. George Blount says that’s actually ok. But there’s some important strategies to keep us out of trouble when we hit that “buy” button.

George’s Money Tips

George Blount:
I'm a financial therapist. I means I help people with their emotional relationship with money, and that usually takes place in a few aspects. There are five areas of financial health and that's the economic, the relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional elements of financial health and I try to help individuals with each of those. The economic is the most common one that is primarily products and services or processes that people are used to. The parts that people are not as familiar with, or delving deeper into your financial behavior kind of some of the feelings that you have, the psychological aspects of money, or maybe the emotional response that you have the money. So I try to delve deeper into those aspects.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper now. Let's talk about spending habits and ways to improve them. What are your top tips for that to begin with? And then we'll get back into the emotional things and the economic stuff that you were talking about.

George Blount:
Yeah. Some of the things that are going to be helpful to at least curb your spending are first and foremost, putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase. So if you have a reason, or if you have a goal that you're aligning some of your spending to, it makes it easier for you to be aware of the spending, one, it also allows you to have a timeframe on what is an appropriate amount of spending and then what's an appropriate time to enjoy that spending and sort of really just allows you to have a better understanding.

George Blount:
The second thing I would say is the pace. We just have to understand that you don't always have to spend money right away. So as you come up with these decisions, or as you have an opportunity to spend really think about it, take a little bit of time before you make that decision and then you move forward. So having a purpose to your purchases, and then think about the pace that you have in your spending as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming out of the pandemic a lot of us feel whether we're aware of it or not, this urge to splurge, we call it revenge spending. How do you manage that? What do you do? Because we've had this pent up, we've literally been pent up, I should say, for so long that I don't know, we feel like we deserve it. Right?

George Blount:
So it's important to look at it as not a zero sum game. There are some things that are bad habits that were formed throughout this period of time, but then there are also some good things that happen throughout this period of time. So you can look back and say, "Okay, I have improved in these areas. I've saved in this part of my spending," or, "I improved my saving in this area. So that's something that I want to hold on to, and this is something that I'm doing that that I really don't want to hold onto. It's a poor habit and I need to get rid of it."

George Blount:
So really comparing and contrasting some of the good things and bad things that you have learned, and then making a choice that the mindful spending is really about presenting yourself with viable alternatives and then selecting the appropriate choice for you. So that when you're spending isn't based on regret or some type of emotional element, but where it's based on achieving a goal and based on some type of alignment to an objective that is going to serve well for the longer term.

Bobbi Rebell:
What role does peer pressure play in our spending, especially now when other people are telling us we deserve certain things?

George Blount:
Yeah. It takes a large part of our brain capacity to really hear what everybody else is saying. So it's a really significant part of what we deal with. Peer pressure is something that allows us to exacerbate some of our bad spending. Maybe it amplifies or validate some of our good behaviors, but let's just talk about the negative side of it, because that's what we see. People in general don't need a lot of people to tell them what to do. In fact, we trust information from a very small number of people. So if we hear a couple of things from a small number of people that we may trust, or that we believe in, we take it to heart.

George Blount:
So sometimes if it may not be well-informed financial decisions, or it may be more of an opinion that someone has based on their previous experience as opposed to an educational opportunity, then it really is a negative effect of peer pressure. So we need to try to avoid that because it's pretty popular and we should probably convert it to some of the other forms, which is maybe listen to your professors or, or some of the journalist, or maybe the contextual way that some individuals can allow conversations to make sense. That's good peer pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any specific suggestions to combat that when someone say, "Oh, you haven't bought anything in this long. Just get it."

George Blount:
I think I would always recommend there's a simulation that you can play. It's a playspent.org, playS-P-E-N-T.org. And what it is, it's just a simulation on trying to balance out your spending and it takes about five minutes or so to go through. But go through that exercise and it is a hypothetical simulation of whether or not you could save money in a month and what types of activities may come in throughout the month that can deter your spending or deter your savings. And that single perspective is often really good and allowing people to understand just the randomness that life presents when it comes to our financial decisions, our financial purchases, or where we need to save.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some red flags to look for?

George Blount:
Red flags I think normally will come from things that you don't feel well about. When I talk to individuals and I say, "I help people with their emotional relationship with money." Some people don't know what that emotional relationship is. It's hard to describe, you can't go into it and we have to go through this mode of discovery. Some people understand it very well. And some people know that there are bad influences on their spending, where they're spending to make themselves feel better, or they're doing things that they know that they just don't want to do. So if you subconsciously know that, or even if you are overtly saying that that would be a red flag.

Bobbi Rebell:
And a lot of people became more comfortable online shopping than ever during the pandemic. What can we do to make sure that we're not overspending in terms of online?

George Blount:
Limiting the exposure to your phone, your screen time, similar to the way that you would with social media and you take a fast or you take a little break, you have to do the same thing with the shopping apps that are on your phone. You can remove them, you can take a break from them, nothing to look at them. I think the more we are away from it, it's a little bit easier.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about also subscribing to newsletters, websites, store cards, that kind of stuff?

George Blount:
Yeah. I think as long as it is serving a purpose. Again, you have this a situation where you're looking at information that is going to allow you to one way or another, make a purchase that satisfies your need or not. So if it's purposeful, then by all means go right ahead. But if it's not, I think that's where there's a problem. So just giving yourself better alternatives is always going to be the approach that I would recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

George Blount:
Yeah, I would just add two things to think. The first one is that as you mentioned, I think more people have become more comfortable shopping online. I think more people, they've gotten a lot better at seeking help out. So maybe it is not always been seen as appropriate to seek out therapy when it comes to your financial decisions, but that is something that is very possible as well. I think the second thing is you can always look at trusted sources like mymoney.gov, For places that will give you great information on how you should spend, how you should save and terms that are incredibly important. And that's free websites that are accessible to everybody.

Follow George!

• Instagram - @nbalancefinancial

• Facebook - @nbalancefinancial

• Twitter - @nbalancefin

• YouTube

• LinkedIn

• Website - www.nbalancefinancial.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grown-up for 15% off, your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

George Blount:
Putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we've got this. Hello grownups, feeling the urge to splurge these days? Maybe a little revenge spending after over a year of basically being stuck at home. That is totally normal and probably okay. A little, as long as you follow the rules you are going to hear from this week's guest financial therapist, Dr. George Blount, Managing Partner at nBalance Financial. Dr. Blount works with individuals on financial matters, but with a special focus on the emotional, behavioral and psychological elements that impact their financial decisions. In our interview, Dr. Blount walks us through the five areas of financial health, and then we're going to get into his money tips and how we can all still enjoy spending and even splurging without derailing our goals. Here is Dr. George Blount. Dr. George Blount, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

George Blount:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. Pleasure to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am excited to have you on, you're going to be sharing your tips to improve our spending habits. But before we do that, I introduced you as Dr. George Blount. You're a financial therapist, tell us about that.

George Blount:
Yep. So I'm a financial therapist. I means I help people with their emotional relationship with money, and that usually takes place in a few aspects. There are five areas of financial health and that's the economic, the relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional elements of financial health and I try to help individuals with each of those. The economic is the most common one that is primarily products and services or processes that people are used to. The parts that people are not as familiar with, or delving deeper into your financial behavior kind of some of the feelings that you have, the psychological aspects of money, or maybe the emotional response that you have the money. So I try to delve deeper into those aspects.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper now. Let's talk about spending habits and ways to improve them. What are your top tips for that to begin with? And then we'll get back into the emotional things and the economic stuff that you were talking about.

George Blount:
Yeah. Some of the things that are going to be helpful to at least curb your spending are first and foremost, putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase. So if you have a reason, or if you have a goal that you're aligning some of your spending to, it makes it easier for you to be aware of the spending, one, it also allows you to have a timeframe on what is an appropriate amount of spending and then what's an appropriate time to enjoy that spending and sort of really just allows you to have a better understanding.

George Blount:
The second thing I would say is the pace. We just have to understand that you don't always have to spend money right away. So as you come up with these decisions, or as you have an opportunity to spend really think about it, take a little bit of time before you make that decision and then you move forward. So having a purpose to your purchases, and then think about the pace that you have in your spending as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming out of the pandemic a lot of us feel whether we're aware of it or not, this urge to splurge, we call it revenge spending. How do you manage that? What do you do? Because we've had this pent up, we've literally been pent up, I should say, for so long that I don't know, we feel like we deserve it. Right?

George Blount:
So it's important to look at it as not a zero sum game. There are some things that are bad habits that were formed throughout this period of time, but then there are also some good things that happen throughout this period of time. So you can look back and say, "Okay, I have improved in these areas. I've saved in this part of my spending," or, "I improved my saving in this area. So that's something that I want to hold on to, and this is something that I'm doing that that I really don't want to hold onto. It's a poor habit and I need to get rid of it."

George Blount:
So really comparing and contrasting some of the good things and bad things that you have learned, and then making a choice that the mindful spending is really about presenting yourself with viable alternatives and then selecting the appropriate choice for you. So that when you're spending isn't based on regret or some type of emotional element, but where it's based on achieving a goal and based on some type of alignment to an objective that is going to serve well for the longer term.

Bobbi Rebell:
What role does peer pressure play in our spending, especially now when other people are telling us we deserve certain things?

George Blount:
Yeah. It takes a large part of our brain capacity to really hear what everybody else is saying. So it's a really significant part of what we deal with. Peer pressure is something that allows us to exacerbate some of our bad spending. Maybe it amplifies or validate some of our good behaviors, but let's just talk about the negative side of it, because that's what we see. People in general don't need a lot of people to tell them what to do. In fact, we trust information from a very small number of people. So if we hear a couple of things from a small number of people that we may trust, or that we believe in, we take it to heart.

George Blount:
So sometimes if it may not be well-informed financial decisions, or it may be more of an opinion that someone has based on their previous experience as opposed to an educational opportunity, then it really is a negative effect of peer pressure. So we need to try to avoid that because it's pretty popular and we should probably convert it to some of the other forms, which is maybe listen to your professors or, or some of the journalist, or maybe the contextual way that some individuals can allow conversations to make sense. That's good peer pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any specific suggestions to combat that when someone say, "Oh, you haven't bought anything in this long. Just get it."

George Blount:
I think I would always recommend there's a simulation that you can play. It's a playspent.org, playS-P-E-N-T.org. And what it is, it's just a simulation on trying to balance out your spending and it takes about five minutes or so to go through. But go through that exercise and it is a hypothetical simulation of whether or not you could save money in a month and what types of activities may come in throughout the month that can deter your spending or deter your savings. And that single perspective is often really good and allowing people to understand just the randomness that life presents when it comes to our financial decisions, our financial purchases, or where we need to save.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some red flags to look for?

George Blount:
Red flags I think normally will come from things that you don't feel well about. When I talk to individuals and I say, "I help people with their emotional relationship with money." Some people don't know what that emotional relationship is. It's hard to describe, you can't go into it and we have to go through this mode of discovery. Some people understand it very well. And some people know that there are bad influences on their spending, where they're spending to make themselves feel better, or they're doing things that they know that they just don't want to do. So if you subconsciously know that, or even if you are overtly saying that that would be a red flag.

Bobbi Rebell:
And a lot of people became more comfortable online shopping than ever during the pandemic. What can we do to make sure that we're not overspending in terms of online?

George Blount:
Limiting the exposure to your phone, your screen time, similar to the way that you would with social media and you take a fast or you take a little break, you have to do the same thing with the shopping apps that are on your phone. You can remove them, you can take a break from them, nothing to look at them. I think the more we are away from it, it's a little bit easier.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about also subscribing to newsletters, websites, store cards, that kind of stuff?

George Blount:
Yeah. I think as long as it is serving a purpose. Again, you have this a situation where you're looking at information that is going to allow you to one way or another, make a purchase that satisfies your need or not. So if it's purposeful, then by all means go right ahead. But if it's not, I think that's where there's a problem. So just giving yourself better alternatives is always going to be the approach that I would recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

George Blount:
Yeah, I would just add two things to think. The first one is that as you mentioned, I think more people have become more comfortable shopping online. I think more people, they've gotten a lot better at seeking help out. So maybe it is not always been seen as appropriate to seek out therapy when it comes to your financial decisions, but that is something that is very possible as well. I think the second thing is you can always look at trusted sources like mymoney.gov, For places that will give you great information on how you should spend, how you should save and terms that are incredibly important. And that's free websites that are accessible to everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Where can people find out more about you and be in touch?

George Blount:
Absolutely. So they can go to my website, which is nbalancefinancial.com. And that's N-B-L-A-N-C-E, that's nbalancefinancial.com. And they can always get in touch with me directly through that site. I'm located in Boston, but servicing all throughout the US through this virtual environment.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

George Blount:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. It's just been such a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's review some of Dr. Blount's money tips. First of all, there are five areas of financial health, economic, relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional. To curb your spending, put a goal in front of you, a purpose to your purchase. Watch out for negative peer pressure and make sure to include vetted third party information when you're making big money decisions. Take a break, not just from social media, which pushes those shopping ads, but also from those shopping apps on your phone. It may not be something that you think of naturally, but there is a lot of emotion and psychology in our financial decisions, and it may be worth seeking therapy if you find yourself struggling with your financial situation, especially in these times that are really unprecedented. One thing that is definitely okay to spend the right amount of money on is celebrating life's adulting moments. And the best place of course, to get those gifts is at grownupgear.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you haven't checked it out yet, take a look. We have the perfect gift for all of those adulting celebrations, those adulting milestones that we celebrate from graduations, to engagements, bridal showers, new homes, birthdays, becoming new parents, all those good things. As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to grown-up gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. And maybe we can also call it financial independence day. I don't know. Anyway, there are two ways to enter to win. Way number one is to take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, tag me @bobbirebell1. And then also this is key, email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. That's hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot, and then send that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Growing up here is what we like to call a micro business, and we really do and appreciate all of your support. So please check it out and tell your friends. We also appreciated Dr. George Blount for helping us all be financial grownups. Money tips for financial grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

The buzz on SPACs keeps building. Bobbi shares what is driving the trend, what a SPAC is, and what investors need to know about them. 

Pros of SPAC

#1: It lowers the risk of going public. Let’s face it: a lot can go wrong. Companies are worried that market volatility could tank their public debut. Merging with a SPAC gets them a capital influx much faster and easier. 

#2: It’s faster. Space have no financial history- so the only track record is the reputation of the management teams. For a company, merging with a SPAC can get them funding in a few months. The traditional IPO route which involves a lot of paperwork with the SEC can take as much as 6 months, sometimes longer. 

#3: More control over valuation. With a SPAC merger, the company can negotiate a fixed valuation with the sponsors. 

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Cons of SPAC

#1: Shady history.  Back in the 1980’s SPAC’s were known as  “Blank Check Companies” The industry was full of fraud, and known for scamming investors. A federal law was even passed to crack down on them. Now there are some guardrails in place- for example, if an investor does not approve of a company that the SPAC is merging with they can get their money back. 

#2: A successful SPAC can be incredibly lucrative for the for the sponsor, to the point where there is a concern that they might merge the SPAC with a less than ideal company just to get their big payday. Oh- and generally they have to make a deal within 2 years- so there’s a ticking clock to make something, sometimes anything, happen. 

#3: Investors should be aware that the company that has gone public by merging with the SPAC has not gone through the vetting process of doing all the financial audits and requirements that happen in a traditional initial public offering. So you have to wonder: what do you not know about the company? In other words, it is easier for the company, but riskier for the investor. 

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Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn-https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbirebellkaufman

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Financial Grownup Guide: What is a SPAC- and why it is such a hot trend on Wall Street

Hi friends!

If you pay attention to the money and investing related news, which you should be, you have probably been hearing about SPACS- which stands for special purpose acquisition company. They have actually been around for decades-but the buzz has really been building lately. Their rep is that they are last resorts for small companies to go public, because they couldn’t raise money on the open market. But that doesn’t really explain why they are having such a big moment right now. 

So here’s what we are going to go over in this episode:

-What is a SPAC

-Why would a company go public using a SPAC rather than the traditional route?

-What are SPACs so popular now- and what role did the global pandemic play in the trend?

-I'll tell you about the shady history of SPAC's

-What are the risks for investors?

Before we get into it- I do want to welcome everyone. If you are new- this is kind of a special episode. I do these solo episodes on occasion where I talk about a money topic- usually something in the news. 

But most of our episodes focus on having a role model as a guest- a financial grownup as we like to say, sharing a money story that had a big impact on their life and then the lessons we can all learn from their experience. We also have them share everyday money tips that we can put to work right away. If you enjoy this podcast I hope you will take a moment to subscribe, and share it with friends or family that you think might enjoy it. One easy way is just to take a screenshot of the show and share it on social media- and please tag me @bobbirebell1 on instagram so I can thank you. 

Back to SPACs. Let’s first go over exactly what a SPAC is- and is not. 

Think of a SPAC as a shell company set up to buy another company- except it doesn’t necessarily know what that company will be. Usually a team of investors raise the money first- but again- very often without a target company. It goes public as a Special Purpose Acquisition Company but it contains no company. All it has is money kept in a trust. 

Then we have companies that need money- and are on the hunt for the right way to get it. 

So to simplify- on one side we have money with no company, and on the other side we have a company, that it looking for money. 

This is different from the more common way for companies to raise big money in the public markets with a standard initial public offering. But that is really complicated- and expensive. There’s a ton of paperwork, financial audits and regulations. There are road shows, and pitch meetings with institutional investors. And it is super risky. Some of the risks the company can control, but the truth is the depending on what is going on in the world at the time the company wants to go public, a lot of how well that company will do- it can’t control. 

But they have become a really big trend on Wall Street recently. 242 SPACs were introduced in 2020, quadruple the number raised in 2019, according to SPAC Insider. The average size of a SPAC in 2020 was $335 million, that is almost  10 times the amount in 2009.

And there are some interesting reasons why that we are going to talk about. 

Reason #1: It lowers the risk of going public. Let’s face it: a lot can go wrong. Companies are worried that market volatility could tank their public debut. Merging with a SPAC gets them a capital influx much faster and easier. 

Reason #2: It’s faster. Space have no financial history- so the only track record is the reputation of the management teams. For a company, merging with a SPAC can get them funding in a few months. The traditional IPO route which involves a lot of paperwork with the SEC can take as much as 6 months, sometimes longer. 

Reason #3 More control over valuation. With a SPAC merger, the company can negotiate a fixed valuation with the sponsors. 

All this has a lot of appeal during the global pandemic, given how much uncertainty there has been in the global markets. It got a lot harder to raise money the traditional way. So SPAC’s can provide a viable option for capital starved companies to access funding. 

This all sounds great- so what’s the catch?

Well first- their shady history.  Back in the 1980’s SPAC’s were known as  “Blank Check Companies” The industry was full of fraud, and known for scamming investors. A federal law was even passed to crack down on them. Now there are some guardrails in place- for example, if an investor does not approve of a company that the SPAC is merging with they can get their money back. 

Second: A successful SPAC can be incredibly lucrative for the for the sponsor, to the point where there is a concern that they might merge the SPAC with a less than ideal company just to get their big payday. Oh- and generally they have to make a deal within 2 years- so there’s a ticking clock to make something, sometimes anything, happen. 

Third: Investors should be aware that the company that has gone public by merging with the SPAC has not gone through the vetting process of doing all the financial audits and requirements that happen in a traditional initial public offering. So you have to wonder: what do you not know about the company? In other words, it is easier for the company, but riskier for the investor. 

Which brings us to why you should be paying attention to the trend. In my opinion- and this is an opinion, we should look carefully at why a company would choose to go public this way. That does not mean it is not a good investment. It just means, it did not go through the traditional red tape. To be clear, many companies go through the red tape, and no one takes the time to read all the details of what they have disclosed to potential investors. 

That said, once a company is publicly traded, as the calendar mandates, it will have to comply with the laws regarding disclosure. So maybe, if you want to invest in a company that used a SPAC to go public, you might consider taking your time, and getting more information before you jump in. 

Before I let you go- a reminder that I am on a campaign to boost financial literacy by giving out free books. If you want to win a book that has been grownup list approved- all you need to do is either do a screen grab of the podcast while you are listening to it - and post it on instagram and tag me at bobbirebell1- or write a review on apple podcasts and email it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. You could win a book by one of the authors that has been on the show, or some of the merch from the grownupgear store which you can check out at grownupgear.com.

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Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Author Ron Lieber returns to the Financial Grownup podcast to preview his new book "The Price You Pay for College”and share tips on the best ways to control college costs, including debunking some big myths about why college is so expensive and who gets how much aid, and why. 

Tip #1:

There is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called Merit Aid. Rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can. Figure out whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes. You have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Tip #2

You can appeal the financial aid package you receive from these colleges. The need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. You may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need-based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid. That's going to give you the best chance of success.

Tip #3

Save the “right” way. There's this idea out there that you need to make a choice between saving for your retirement and saving for college for your kids. You can do both. Borrowing for college may not be for some families. This idea also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time. The financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Tip #4

You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children. We do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. You don't get, make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old. So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Tip #5

What we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, our spouses, or even our exes. We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt. The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us. We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Full Transcript of Episode:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works.

Bobbi Rebell:

You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit, split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com. Financial grownup guide, five things you can control about the price you pay for college with author Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of, 'How To Be a Financial Grownup.' But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hello, my friends, for all our talk about budgeting, spending, penny pinching in some cases, looking at the prices of everything we buy. Most of us, our parents, our children, friends, we buy one really big ticket item that we shop for without actually getting to see the real price that we will pay. I am of course, talking about college. And while yes, we can see the full retail price on many university's websites, the majority of us actually, aren't going to pay that price.

Bobbi Rebell:

In fact, I learned in Ron Lieber's new book, "The Price You Pay for College" that only 11% pay that price. So then the question is how much of a discount can we get, and how is that decided? Welcome everyone here on the Financial Grownup podcast, we talk about money issues that matter to us as we move through adulthood and college certainly qualifies.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber, the New York Times Your Money Columnist, who was first on the podcast in 2018, talking about how he got into school is now back to give us a peek at his very grownup book, "The Price You Pay for College," an entirely new roadmap for the biggest financial decision your family will ever make. Yeah, that's the truth. Like so much of our lives these days, there are lot of things that we can't control. So I asked Ron to tell us what we can control, and he did a little myth-busting along the way. Here is Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber welcome back to the podcast and congratulations on your new book, "The Price You Pay for College."

Ron Lieber:
It's great to be back. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

What inspired this book before we get into your tips about the things that we can control about the price that we all pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, this book is both personal and professional. It's personal because, I have a 15 year-old ninth grader and a five-year-old kindergartener. I live in New York city with extremely high costs and it's a two journalist household. So we're not exactly rolling at it. So this is going to be hard for our daughters to have the same kinds of choices that my wife and I had albeit for me with a whole bunch of need-based financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

So it's personal, but it's also professional because readers kept getting in touch and expressing marvel, but also alarm at the fact that the rack rate for the most expensive colleges in the country had passed $300,000 for four years and even the flagship state universities.

Ron Lieber:

Many of them are now more than a hundred grand for four years. So you've got a $200,000 gap between them and these readers were saying to me, "Hey, we live in the era of big data, where's the big dataset that explains why NYU is $200,000 better than SUNY Binghamton." I did not know and it felt like a new question to me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well you answer a lot of the questions in the book? And unfortunately there is a lot about this process that we simply cannot control, but I want to focus for our grownup audience on the things that we can control. And we've got a list of a few things we're going to go through. What is the first one? What can we control when it comes to the price we pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, you can control what you know, right? You can learn how the system works. One of the things that continues to amaze me is the number of sophisticated people who are extremely successful in their own chosen fields of employment who show up in my inbox or in my text messages in March or April of their child's senior year in high school.

Ron Lieber:

And they have no idea what has hit them. They have no idea that there is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called merit aid. And that rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can.

Bobbi Rebell:

And that's kind of one of the reasons why college has gotten so expensive in fact, is that it's become the sort of vicious cycle.

Ron Lieber:

One of the things that's made it also complicated for the people who run these schools, it's not just the pricing wars going on in the background, although that certainly helps drive down revenue and the net tuition revenue per student. But one of the things that we can't control as individuals and the schools have a lot of trouble controlling, is that people good ones, well trained people cost money, right?

Ron Lieber:

Professors spend, a minimum of five years in graduate training and Economics 101 suggests that, people who need to spend that long learning and training ought to be compensated at an above average rate. There are also more administrators than there used to be for every 1000 undergraduates. But that's mostly because we like it that way, right?

Ron Lieber:

We want disabled kids to have access. We want kids with mental health issues to have access. We want there to be a good counseling center on all of that. So, we get the administrators, we demand in the marketplace. But it is not cheap to run these places and if we made them more efficient, we might not like the result.

Bobbi Rebell:

So for parents that want merit aid, how can we control merit aid and how much we can get for our child or for kids going to college, if you're a teenager listening to this?

Ron Lieber:

Well, the first thing you have to be able to figure out is whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes.

Ron Lieber:

I think of schools like, Oberlin or Connecticut College, relatively Tony Brand’s private schools. A lot of fancy kids go there. They don't really want to talk about this. They're ashamed that they've got to, get in there and slug it out in the marketplace.

Ron Lieber:

And so you have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts.

Bobbi Rebell:

Another thing I was shocked about that you talk about in your book that people can control is if they do get a financial aid package, they can appeal it.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. There are a lot of people who don't know that this is the case as well. And it gets a little messy, right? Because the need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. But the merit aid awards come from admissions. So depending on which awards you have, you may need to file your appeal to different people.

Ron Lieber:

And then when you do, you may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need- based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

That's going to give you the best chance of success. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's get into other things that people can control. There's a lot of myths about how to save, where to save and how much to save to get the best opportunity in terms of support from the college. What should people be doing? What can they control there?

Ron Lieber:

Well, let's go through a couple of the maxims here that are repeated as truths in financial planning and in personal finance, journalism, by people who ought to know better that are not actually true. First of all, there's this idea out there that if you need to make a choice between saving for retirement and saving for college, you should save for retirement because you can't borrow for retirement. That implies a couple of things.

Ron Lieber:

First of all, that borrowing for college is necessarily and always a good idea, and it may not be for some families. But it also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home.

Ron Lieber:

So, I hate things that are presented as maxims. They're actually based in factual inaccuracies. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time.

Ron Lieber:

So there's a whole bunch of problems with this. I mean, first of all, the financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. And let me also say this, right?

Ron Lieber:

I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Bobbi Rebell:

And speaking of your kids, that's also something you can control. You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. Look, I mean, we do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. That's not how it works when this thing that they are chasing costs today, as much as $325,000 for University of Chicago at the rack rate, right? You don't get to make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old.

Ron Lieber:

So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Bobbi Rebell:

And the final thing I want to talk about is our own emotions. There's the cliche, "Keeping up with the Joneses" and everyone says, "Oh, I just want what's best for my child." But people get pretty emotional. This for many parents, it's a reflection on, it's almost like, did they get an A+ in parenting, depending on where their child goes to school. They want that sticker on the car, right?

Ron Lieber:

I am so glad you bring this up. Obviously the students have a tendency to be emotional. They're getting ready to leave home, they feel like it's competitive. They want to be able to hold their head up in the community. They want what they want and that's normal for adolescents.

Ron Lieber:

But what we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, with our spouses if we have one, with our exes, if we have some of those about the feelings that all of this invokes and evokes, right? We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt, right? The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us.

Ron Lieber:

And so therefore we should borrow $150,000 per kid, right? We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Bobbi Rebell:

Very interesting. And it's true in schools, one of the myths that you dispel in the book is that schools, they have all these things you joke about the lazy river and the rock climbing wall. I mean, that is something that is eye candy for students. That's not the reason that schools are so expensive by the way.

Ron Lieber:

No, I mean, these are really fun things to go gawk at and talk about and old school types will snicker and think that everything's gone to rot. But I don't blame the schools for this. I mean, these 18 year olds want to continue to live in the manner to which they become accustomed.

Ron Lieber:

And all of a sudden in a generation we've gone from, having a VCR in your room and a private phone line, and your own camcorder, being a luxury to everybody walking around with this little rectangle that like does all of those things and then some, right?

Ron Lieber:

We just have a way higher standard of living that we used to. And so it doesn't surprise me that a bunch of institutions would want to raise the quality of the lived experience for their undergraduates. I would argue that this is market driven. It's not driven by the institutions and it doesn't actually cost a ton. Again, it's the people who cost money at the schools, not the amenities.

Bobbi Rebell:

Right. And that's a big, big myth that you bust in the book. I loved your book. I hope lots of people pick it up because it is eye-opening about so many things that I thought were true that are not true like that last example. Ron, where can people be in touch with you?

Ron Lieber:

Yeah, I am itching to get back out on the road again, but it's probably not going to happen until November at the earliest. So I will be all over the internet. The best way to catch up with me is to sign up for my newsletter, which I promise I don't send out all that often. But if you go to ronlieber.com and just drop your first name and your email address in there, you can keep up with me and I will continue to send notes and notices about where I will be appearing via zoom. And I'm on all the usual social channels @RonLieber.

Bobbi Rebell:
So wonderful. Thank you so much.

Ron Lieber:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay my friends. I was pretty surprised about how little at a relative basis, all those luxuries amenities costs, but I guess overall, it is a good thing that the money is going in large part to educators. Right? I would love to hear about your experiences with paying for college. You can DM me at @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, @BobbiRebell on Twitter, and please join the grownup list.

Bobbi Rebell:

We share recommendations of books, podcasts, and other fun things to level up your grownup life, plus we are doing giveaways of books from the authors on the show and exclusive financial grownup merchandise. Just go to my website, Bobbirebell.com to sign up. Big thanks to, "The Price You Pay for College" author, Ron Lieber for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Certified Financial Planner shares his advice on how to get your finances ready for the future including some unconventional advice that you likely have not heard before, and how to face tough money choices. 

5 Tips to Figure Out Your Financial Future

1. Don’t spend more than you make

2. Pay yourself first

3. Establish an emergency fund

4. Think long term

“This is going to sound crass but don’t go to your friends because they know very little more than you do, so this is one area where you need to go to experts”
-Brian Ursu, author of Now What? on getting investing advice”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Brian talked about the importance of educating yourself- and that friends are not always the best sources - because they are not experts. . But friends CAN be a great motivator- so consider choosing a book about money to read with your friends and discuss. it can be Brian’s or you can go through my author interviews here on the podcast, or- just ask friends what they like. But read books that resonate and then get together -socially distanced or virtually and have that conversation as peers.

“Your future self gets here a lot quicker than you had planned or thought about.”

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Brian talked about the app that makes you look older- and how it gets us to think about our future self. After you do that- go pull up a picture of younger you- and think about how you see money differently with the grownup life experience you have now had.

“I never in my wildest dreams thought of a global pandemic as a reason to have an emergency fund but here we are.”

Episode Links:

• Brian’s website - www.brianursu.com

Follow Brian!

• Instagram - @nowwhat240

• Facebook - @Nowwhatthebook

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Naseema McElroy candidly shares her experiences paying off debt and building a financial foundation, and how that journey allowed her to break free from both a toxic work environment and an abusive relationship. 

Naseema’s Money Story:

Naseema McElroy:
When I started on this journey, I was single. I was a single mom with my daughter, and as I was starting to pay down debt, I did get married. It was a very short marriage because it was abusive. He ended up having to go to jail. And then I had to go through that divorce process. But if I hadn't had my finances in order during that process, it could have dragged out. I could have stayed in that relationship because of financial dependency. And so I thank God that I was already on that journey so I could step away.

Naseema McElroy:
Shortly after that, I transitioned to a different facility for the same organization that I was working for and was experiencing and witnessing a lot of medical malpractice, especially in regards to maternal morbidity, not to the point of mortality, but almost.

Bobbi Rebell:
Can you explain what you mean by that?

Naseema McElroy:
Yeah. In this country, we have higher rates of black women dying and being seriously injured from just giving birth. And it's very prevalent in certain areas. And in this particular hospital I was working with, it was prevalent and I was speaking up against it. That wasn't well accepted or received.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was happening? They weren't getting good medical care? Tell us more about that, because that is something that we don't know about. I want to know more about that.

Naseema McElroy:
Yeah. So it's very common and that's probably why I'm not being as specific as you want because everybody knows this, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Are they not getting the right? I mean, look, we're both moms, are they not getting the right medical care? And why? Is it a cost cutting decision in the hospital? What is going on? What's not happening?

Naseema McElroy:
It's implicit bias. It's just the way that you handle two different patients, right? So I'll give you an example. I have a mom that's in labor. She's trying to have a vaginal delivery after she had a C-section, which has serious implications, has to be monitored carefully. She's telling me that she's having a lot of pain and I'm prepping her to go to the OR. This doesn't feel right, let's go. The attending walks in the room and she's like, "Oh, so you're in pain now? You're in actual pain now because you're actually in labor and this is what you wanted." So instead of doing the C-section right then, she waited hours to do the C-section, went and did the C-section. And then the baby was hanging out of her uterus with both her and her baby could have died.

Naseema McElroy:
So these things were happening over and over again, over a short period of time. And when I spoke up about it, I was basically told to shut up, and I didn't know what I was talking about. And I had been a labor and delivery nurse for years and had never had my judgment questioned. And so I know that that was an environment that I had to leave because I already tried to speak out. But I was at a position financially where I didn't have to have that job, and so I left. And then when I left in the back end, I did some actions in order to make sure that they corrected their mistakes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank God for that. So you had the choice to leave this horrific job environment, which by the way, thank you for speaking up so candidly, and thank you for following up after you left. Because I know that probably many women benefited, families benefited, children benefited from that. In terms of you, because we want to focus on you on this podcast, you had the financial freedom. So tell us the steps that you went through. You had the financial freedom to leave an abusive relationship. And by the way, divorce is never cheap, as we know.

Naseema McElroy:
Even for that short amount of time. Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it's almost many divorces last more than marriages. But also leaving so many people are stuck in jobs that they're trapped because they don't have the finances to have the freedom to leave. Tell us, what were you doing specifically, you had $200,000 of student debt and other debt you've alluded to. How did you get control of that so that you could leave both an abusive relationship and a toxic job?

Naseema McElroy:
Well, ironically, I thought it was because I didn't know how to invest my money and that's why I wasn't good with money, and I always thought that investing took like this college degree to learn how to do. And so, I listened to podcasts. I had a long commute and so I Googled investing podcasts and stumbled upon Dave Ramsey, ironically. So I actually started listening to Dave Ramsey and followed his baby steps to start getting out of debt, and that helped me accelerate my debt pay off. And so in just two years, I was able to pay off most of my student loans. Then I was going through my divorce at that time. And then during that divorce, I had to pay, I forgot, $20,000 in debt towards, well, it was basically a car that I had paid off. But anyway, I had to pay my husband, even though it was an abusive relationship, he was in jail. They don't care, so I had to pay him.

Naseema McElroy:
And then, because of the way I was doing and following Dave Ramsey's plan, because I was gung ho, I had a $30,000 IRS debt. So I was almost finished paying off all my debt. And that's just snowballing. I did sell a house in the beginning of the process. That helped accelerate that process, but it was just debt snowballing, zero based budgeting my way. And then finally at the end of it, I had a choice to sell my house and, and people are like, why would you sell your house? I had to really think about this. It's like, a lot of stuff happened in that house, especially with my marriage. And so I was able to walk away from that house pretty easily, even though it was a really nice house. And so I sold my house at the end when I had about $50,000 left in debt and then that cleared out everything.

Naseema McElroy:
And so that's all the debt that I paid off. And so all that stuff took place over a matter of three years. And then at the end of those three years, when I sold my house, I moved, I relocated back to my hometown and that's where I was in that toxic work environment. But at this point I was like, I was on wealth accumulation instead of debt payoff. And so I actually stepped back and only went down to working six days a month. And that was a freedom that I had.

Naseema McElroy:
So financial freedom is not about reaching like this fire number that you might hear out there. It's about the levels of independence that you get to take along the way. And my independence was being able to spend time with my family, be free from this toxic work environment, be out of that bad relationship, be able to recover from all the stuff that happened to me over the years and only work six days a month and still make a pretty good living.

Naseema’s Money Lesson:

Naseema McElroy:
The money lesson is being intentional with your finances unlocks levels of freedom in your life for you to live your life by intention, to be able to walk away from those things.

Naseema’s Money Tip:

Naseema McElroy:
For me, I like nice things. And so I don't skimp on my cars for example. I drive a Tesla. During the whole process of me paying down debt, I took my daughter to Disneyland every other month, but that was super important to me, but it was part of my budget. And so it still fits within whatever financial goals I have, but I don't live in deprivation.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Naseema created choices when she needed them, because she had made the grownup decision ahead of those situations to get control of her finances. Don't wait for the rainy day to have that umbrella handy, guys.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

As Naseema said, Teslas are pricey, but you know what? If you want an electric car, which will allow you of course, to save on gas and be better for the environment, don't forget there are many other electric cars out there to choose from. Happy shopping.

Episode Links:

• Naseema’s website - www.financiallyintentional.com/

Follow Naseema!

• Instagram - @financiallyinte

• Twitter - @financialintent

• Facebook - @nursesonfire

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Jen Risher, Author of “We Need to Talk, A Memoir About Wealth” and her husband made a fortune thanks to stock they both received while employed at Microsoft, adding more when her husband joined Amazon. But as Jen shares, the blessings of wealth came with a social awkwardness until she learned some key strategies we can all learn from and apply to our lives when we have different financial circumstances from those around us. 

Jen’s Money Story:

Jennifer Risher:
I joined Microsoft, and I met my husband and then I got these things called stock options which ended up being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. And that was the beginning because six years later when David and I were married and expecting our first child, he took a job at a small unknown start-up that was selling books on the internet called Amazon.com. And there we were in our early thirties, company went public and yeah, we had more money than we could wrap our head around.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is wonderful, but it also made your life a little bit complicated and your money story has to do with how it, I guess, influenced the different challenges you faced when you were a new mother. Tell us your money story.

Jennifer Risher:
Yeah. Well, after our first daughter was born, well, motherhood is incredible, right? So this curtain opened, I entered this new world, I had this incredible baby, and I joined a moms group with other new moms and we were all in it together. I mean, everyone wants to talk about how much their baby isn't sleeping, and how to keep them from crying and just all the joys, the ups and downs. And I felt so connected to this group of women. At the same time, I had this other curtain lift and I was in this other new world where there was really silence. No one talks about money and I heard that, "Oh, the wealthy don't want to worry about people only liking them for their money." But I wasn't worried about being liked for what I had. I was worried about being hated for it. So I kept it secret. I kept it hidden. So as the women in my mothers group started talking about what stroller to buy or what highchair to buy, I felt like I couldn't contribute. I didn't want anyone to know about my situation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Because a lot of the discussion had to do with best value, best bang for your buck, where can you get things for less. Price was a big part of that decision for them and it wasn't necessarily for you. Is that correct?

Jennifer Risher:
That's absolutely right. Yes. So although we were relating on every level to all the stuff that was going on as new moms, when it came to buying anything or thinking about like, I'd have to just be at home during the evenings when my husband was out working, he never came home, he was working really hard. And I felt like I couldn't complain about that. So there were a lot of issues that were kind of coming up for me that I couldn't share with other people.

Bobbi Rebell:
And how did that evolve? Did you become more comfortable with them? Did it start coming out? What was their reaction? And did they react negatively as you feared?

Jennifer Risher:
Well, it took a long time to evolve. It's hard to imagine money is a challenge that needs to be overcome. And I'll say up front that money does make life easier. So no one needs to shed any tears over my situation, but it is isolating. So I didn't talk about it. And normally I do, if I have a question, I ask my friends, "What should you do? What did you do?" I get other people's experiences but when it came to money, there was no one I could turn to. I felt like I couldn't talk. And it's taken me a long time to get comfortable enough to talk and to try and get other people to do the same.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what did you do that helped you get over that hurdle?

Jennifer Risher:
Yeah. I spent some time feeling a little on the outside, which was tough. And I think I spent a long time writing my book and that was part of kind of coming to terms with issues around money. And now I really want to get us talking about money because it is a way to connect and learn from each other. I mean, the emotions that come up with money are pretty universal because they involve fear. We're afraid of hurting someone's feelings, we're afraid of not measuring up or sounding unknowledgeable. And we all have some sense of money shame or money guilt. We all have a money story. Right? And so the more we can talk to each other about the emotions that come up for us, I think the better because we'd be more connected.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has it affected your friendships?

Jennifer Risher:
When you don't talk about something, I think it tends to loom large and take on a life of its own. It gives money a lot of power when you don't talk about it. But I think when you actually can have that dialogue, it kind of puts money in its place as a tool and a benefit. That's something that's not bigger than I am or than a friend is. So the people who know me and know that that's just something that I am lucky enough to have as a tool in my toolbox.

“I really want to get us talking about money because it is a way to connect and learn from each other”

Jen’s Money Lesson:

Jennifer Risher:
I think it is important to be transparent and to acknowledge those differences upfront. And when they come up, to talk about them, like if I want to go to a fancy restaurant and I know the person that I want to have dinner with, can't afford it, [inaudible 00:07:20] "It's on me this time." Or if someone feels like they don't want to go to that restaurant, they want to eat somewhere more within their budget, then we need to talk about it and make sure that those things don't become bigger than us and that we're in communication. So I think it really is important to maybe get uncomfortable for a little bit and to be vulnerable and really connect as people because ultimately, I mean, that's where life happens and that's where happiness happens. Is in our relationships and our connections with other people.

Jennifer Risher:
People say money doesn't make you happy. And I used to tell myself, "Oh, money doesn't make me happy. Well, it's not going to make me happy." Kind of secretly thinking that it just might, but now I can tell you from firsthand experience that yeah, it's nice, but it's not it. It really is those relationships that you have with other people.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it sounds like you've evolved. How would you have approached that group differently?

Jennifer Risher:
I used to want to keep things hidden and now it doesn't benefit me, it doesn't benefit anyone else either. I mean, it's not helpful to try and hide what you have or what you don't have because people can sense authenticity and I trust people enough to be able to handle the fact that I have money and that they can look past it and see me as just another person, because that's how I feel and I think that's important for us all to know. That, no, money doesn't make you special or better than or worse than. It's just one more thing that you have in your life. And I feel very fortunate that I have it in my life because it means that I can be generous and I am very grateful.

“The emotions that come up with money are pretty universal, because they involve fear, we are afraid of hiring someone’s feelings, or not measuring up.. we all have some sense of money shame or money guilt.”

Jen’s Money Tip:

Jennifer Risher:
It is. I'll tell you a little story because a friend of mine who is middle-class told me how she and her husband drove the same car for many, many years and finally, when it broke down, she bought an Audi Q5. She'd always wanted that car, she loved that car. But then when she was thinking about visiting her sister and driving up in the car, she started to worry about being judged. And in her mind, she heard herself through her sister saying, "Oh, aren't we fancy now? Probably too good for us," in her mind. Then she also heard herself justifying the car, "Well it was used. It wasn't that expensive." And there is an example of, you haven't even talked to your sister and you're making all these assumptions, you're telling yourself stories of what would happen if she had talked to her sister. My bet is that it maybe would be a little uncomfortable, but there's so much relief and connection that can come from addressing your fears of whatever she was afraid her sister would feel.

Jennifer Risher:
And then there is that, like you say, the ownership of, "Yeah, I wanted this car, I'm excited about this car, and I'm happy with it." And to share that excitement with your sister.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think that what you're basically saying is, don't apologize for something. Don't create a conflict that doesn't exist. Don't prejudge that people are going to judge you for a purchase. Live your own life, do what you want to do, and let them react but communicate with them, discuss it. If they have a reaction like that to something you purchase, well, ask them, why. Why do they take issue with you buying something? And in some cases it could be they're taking issue because they have a real concern. Somebody might have a spending problem or something. It doesn't sound like that's the case here, but it's the dialogue. It's talking about it, and keeping that relationship intact and not presuming someone's going to judge you and therefore not buying it or even worse hiding a purchase.

Jennifer Risher:
Yes. Well said. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it is that communication. A friend of mine told me like a year after the fact that she almost hadn't invited our family to join hers to see a Cirque du Soleil show. And she said, "Yeah, I agonized over it for weeks. I was worried that you would only want to sit in front row seats, which our family can't afford." I felt terrible. I didn't realize that she was worried about the finances, but our friendship meant more to me than front row seats. Didn't she know that? But I'm so happy that she said something to me. And the fact that she trusted me enough to bring up money really made me feel closer to her, and our conversation really, it ended up bringing us closer. It also made me more aware of how money might play a role in my relationships with other people and how I could be out of touch. Like that hadn't even crossed my mind. But hearing that from her helped me be more aware. So I think it's just a win win.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, there's so many things. Who knows what we don't know? That people judge us, whether maybe somebody doesn't invite somebody to something because they think they don't have enough money, and they do want to sit in the front row seats, which is not very nice. But some people might say, "We want to go to this restaurant and we don't feel comfortable treating them. And so we're not going to invite them," when maybe they could afford it or would do it, and we just should talk about it. We shouldn't just assume and make judgments about people. And also we should buy things we want to buy if we can afford them and enjoy them and not assume we will be judged. So much wisdom.

“It gives money a lot of power when you don’t talk about it. But I think when you actually can have that dialogue it kind of puts money in it’s place as a tool or a benefit.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

if you are the wealthier of your friends and you want to treat the other friend or friends to say a restaurant meal or the best seats at a show like Cirque du Soleil, you can make it a little less awkward by tying the outing to a special celebration. Maybe it's a birthday, or if it's a couple, maybe it's a couple's anniversary, or maybe there's a work accomplishment to celebrate. That way, you're treating as a gift for a reason, not because of the difference in economic resources.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

The next time you're negotiating for a new job, or you're getting a raise, or you have any leverage in a job or some kind of venture that there's stock options as a possibility, get the stock options. They could pay off big.

Episode Links:

• Jen’s website - jenniferrisher.com

• Jennifer’s Book - WE NEED TO TALK: A Memoir About Wealth

Follow Jen!

• Twitter - @JenRisher

• Facebook

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Getting a PhD was an expensive, and time consuming investment for Elizabeth Segran. So the decision to leave academia did not come lightly. We discuss the season of her life when she came to the realization that it was time to pivot, and the financial grownup moment that clarified what she really wanted to be doing. 

Elizabeth’s Money Story:

Elizabeth Segran:
Absolutely. When I was 25, I took myself to a small village in India called Pondicherry as part of my research. I spent six weeks, the whole summer, walking through this tiny town, learning the language, floating on little boats in the water, exploring the food. And all of this was part of the research that I was doing. And it was one of the most remarkable experiences of my life. But what I'll tell you is that I had very little money in my bank account, and I was spending my 20s gathering all of these experiences, trying to figure out what I really wanted from life, and throughout that process, I wasn't making any money.

Bobbi Rebell:
And how did you feel about it at the time versus how you feel about it now?

Elizabeth Segran:
People often ask me, was it valuable for you to go do a PhD? Especially since, as I explained in my book, I entered the job market in the middle of the great recession. There were no jobs in my field. And so I had to rethink what I wanted to do, and I eventually became a fashion journalist for a business magazine called Fast Company. And I also am now a writer of books. And people are like what were you doing? Did you feel like it was a waste of time? And my answer is always, absolutely not.

Elizabeth Segran:
For those of us who are in our 20s and 30s, millennials and Gen Z, it is far more important for us to find work that aligns with our values, passions, and identity, than to think purely about compensation. And that sets us apart from our parents' generation, who were primarily interested in work that would pay the bills, and that would give us some sort of social status in life. For those of us who are in our 20s and 30s, we know that we're going to be working for 40, 50 years. And we know that that work is going to take so much from us. And so it is so important for us to spend our 20s figuring out what that path is.

Elizabeth Segran:
And for me, that was being in this tiny village in India. I didn't make a lot of money in those years, but I did get a very clear sense of what I value and what I want to be doing with my life. It took being away from the United States, being in this country, spending a lot of time reading and doing all this research about India and my culture and all of these different things that gave me a sense of what I really want to do in life. And so I would not trade that for the world.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to know your opinion then on this pushback we're getting during the coronavirus pandemic. So many colleges are conducting classes virtually, and it's not the same experience for all the obvious reasons, but then there's this idea of what are we really paying for with an education? And the value of that four year traditional bachelor degree and we can extrapolate that to go all the way forward to a PhD when there's now a case being made for people just learning a trade. Is there still value in this whole idea of this extended period of higher education? What do you think about that whole idea that's being discussed now?

Elizabeth Segran:
I'm really sad to hear that many colleges are not just thinking about transitioning to remote learning during this period, but potentially make that part of their coursework going forward. And I'm really sad as well that the higher education is on the brink of collapse, and many people are not going to be able to get PhDs and other degrees going forward.

Elizabeth Segran:
Because there's lots of things that you can learn on the job. For me, I left with my PhD and then I became a journalist. I learned so much while I was practicing the work that I'm doing. And I think that that's true of many jobs. You learn on the job. But what you can't replace in higher that broadening of the mind, reading a lot. I'm spending time with other people asking really difficult questions about what life is about. All of that.

Elizabeth Segran:
It seems so frivolous, especially at a time when the economy is on the brink of collapse, but that is what we need in order to figure out what we want to be as individuals and as a society. It's in those conversations that we figure out what we want the world to be like. If we're closing off the spaces where we can have those conversations, those in-person discussions, the ability to travel to different locations and study abroad and explore other cultures, all of this stuff, if this goes away, I think that we're going to lose something very important.

“There has been this ideal of finding your dream job throughout history but for most of time people didn’t have the ability to actually do that kind of work.”

Elizabeth’s Money Lesson:

Elizabeth Segran:
Here's the main thing that I would like to communicate. I think that we're really lucky because we are among the first generations in the history of mankind who can find work that is an extension of our identity and ourselves. There's been this ideal of finding your dream job throughout history, but for most of time, people didn't have the ability to actually do that kind of work. For most of history, you had to be a farmer because that was the only work available to you. Or you had to learn a trade among a very small number of options that was out there. And even for our parents' generation, this notion was crystallizing, but the data shows that most people were still mostly interested in finding work that paid the bills.

Elizabeth Segran:
That is not true for us. We have the opportunity to find work and pursue work that aligns with who we are. And that is a huge gift. I think our 20s should really be spent trying to figure out what that work is for us and being patient with ourselves and going on these winding journeys to find it.

Elizabeth Segran:
Now, the data shows that 50% of people will eventually find work that is not just merely satisfying to them, but that exceeds their expectations. This is amazing news. Most of us will eventually find work that really makes us happy and really aligns with our identity.

Elizabeth Segran:
Now, the flip side to that is that it is really easy for employers to exploit workers who are working primarily out of a sense of purpose and out of a sense of passion, rather than trying to find good compensation. If we as workers are pursuing our work because we're passionate about it, it's really easy for employer to say that is compensation in itself. We're not going to pay you that much. Or, you're enjoying being part of the culture at this company, as a result, we're going to not compensate you enough. That is the downside to this new philosophy of work. And so the advice that I would give to people is once you figured out your path and you found work that is really engaging and passionate and that you will be able to do for the next 40 years, and it'll keep you happy. Once you've found that, you need to be really cautious about ensuring that you are properly compensated and that you have a good insurance and that you have good benefits because it's really easy to be exploited in this new way that we work.

“It is really easy for employers to exploit workers who are working primarily out of a sense of purpose and out of a sense of passion rather than trying to find good compensation.”

Elizabeth’s Money Tip:

Elizabeth Segran:
When you are considering taking a job, I would really caution you not to get distracted by shiny things that an employer puts in front of you like, "We have unlimited cold brew coffee on tap," or, "We have an amazing foosball table that our employees use," or "We have nap pods." I think it's really easy to get sold that this is a company that really wants to create an amazing culture and make you feel at home and all of that, because what you really need to be focused on is what is the salary that they're paying you? Is it on par with the market? Are you going to negotiate to make sure that you're getting paid appropriately? What is the benefits package like?

Elizabeth Segran:
I think it's really easy for brands to try and convince you that the work that you're so passionate about and the culture of the workplace that you're looking at is more important than your salary. And so you just need to not take the bait.

“It is really easy for brands to try and convince you that the work that you are so passionate about and the culture of the workplace that you are looking at is more important than your salary so you just need to not take the bait.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Elizabeth is adamant that we not allow ourselves to get exploited, and she is so right. But she also makes sure that we know that you have to be deliberate in the industry that you choose to join, because we can only control what we can control, which is our own choices for the most part. We can't change an entire industry's pay scale or the number of jobs that there are in the industry. She learned that pretty quickly about the academic world. You can read more about this in her book, but she goes into her decision to leave academia where only a small fraction of PhDs, and yes, she spent years getting one, actually work their making a grownup salary. Rather than just keep fighting, what is a harsh reality, but is reality, she went into a field that she also loved and where she was able to negotiate the right compensation for the work. And so she is doing something she's passionate about and she is getting paid.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Cut your losses. Whether it's a PhD, a law degree or whatever, if you spent money for an expensive education, the money has gone, regardless. The time has gone, regardless. When we were talking before the interview, I asked Elizabeth how she felt about spending so much time and money on a degree that she wasn't really using. PhDs, honestly, I'm intimidated by the whole idea. It is a lot of time. It is a big chunk of your life. But she still feels it was super valuable. And that education has a lot of value in and of itself. Yes, it is ridiculously too expensive right now, but that kind of education is not the same as a quick online course that teaches you job specific skills.

Episode Links:

• Elizabeth’s website - www.elizabethsegran.com

Follow Elizabeth!

• Instagram - @lizsegran

• Twitter - @LizSegran

• Facebook - @elizabeth.segran

• LinkedIn - @elizabethsegran

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Bobbi reveals her favorite new money related books, and how to decide if they are right for you. This month’s picks include Don’t Keep Your Day Job by Cathy Heller, The Big Stretch by Teneshia Warner, The Future is Faster Than You Think by Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler, Napkin Finance by Tina Hay and Bow Dow by Lindsay Goldwert.

These are recommendations so I am going to focus on why I was drawn to them and what I got out of them- and full disclosure we do focus  on books written by authors that appear on the podcast- because if we are being honest when I love a book- I want to know more and I want to share that with you guys so we tend to reach out and try to get them on.

Book #1: Don’t Keep Your Day Job: How to Turn your Passion into your Career by Cathy Heller

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-The book is practical and specific. She gives down to earth advice about how to realistically follow your passion but in a very practical way. 

- She shares advice from experts including authors Jen Sincero and Gretchen Rubin and actress Jenna Fischer. There are also stories about every day people to make it relatable.

-There are lots of inspirational quotes like "Why did it have to be an ‘either-or’ when it could be a ‘yes and’?”

Who is this book for:

Don’t keep your day job will motivate just about anyone but it is especially for people looking for advice on well.. how to leave their corporate jobs. Also Entrepreneurs who need a little nudge to connect doing what they love, with doing something that another person or entity will pay for. Emphasis on getting paid.  

Book #2: The Big Stretch: 90 Days to Expand Your Dreams, Crush Your Goals, and Create Your Own Success by Teneshia Warner

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

-It shares the success stories of some of the dreamers that have spoken at those conferences

-It has a time line: 90 days with specific assignments

-Teneshia’s personality shines through and is the real gem in this book

Who is this book for:

It’s for people willing to do the work to get to their goals and The Big Stretch will help you decide if that is you. Not everyone is ready to go for it- and Teneshia sets expectations that will push you to get there- but only if you are ready. 

Book #3: The Future is Faster Thank You Think. How Converging Technologies Are Transforming Business, Industries and Our Lives by Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler.

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-At first I was intimidated by the book- in part because it’s authors are so accomplished as “Big” Thought Leaders. But once I started reading it, this actually became a page turner because of the very accessible way they approach what are often complicated topics, 

-It’s a little like looking into a crystal ball except after- and only after they lay out theories and predictions, you realize that to a large degree. the way things play out was logical all along. They touch on everything from AI, to digital biology, virtual reality, robotics and blockchain.

-The book made me smarter about our world and who doesn’t love just feeling like they have a better handle on our world. 

Who is this book for:

Truth- This is all stuff I just wasn’t that into- until I started reading the book. So even if this isn’t your thing- move out of your comfort zone and just start. You might be surprised how much you like it, just like I did. 

Book #4: Napkin Finance: Build your Wealth in 30 seconds or less by Tina Hay.

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

-It addresses the very basics of financial literacy in a unique and approachable way

-Napkin Finance explains some of the most misunderstood and confusing topics ranging from blockchain to credit scores and paying off student debt.

-Fun fact: Napkin Finance partnered with Michelle Obama’s Better Make Room campaign 

Who is this book for:

Napkin Finance is a book for beginners- and for those of us that can benefit from some re-enforcement and sometimes clarification of financial concepts- most basic but some kind of complicated. 

Bonus Book: Bow Down: Lessons from Dominatrixes on How to Get Everything You Want by Lindsay Goldwert.

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-Lindsay is very revealing about her own challenges and makes you feel like you are in it together with her

-The doms- as Lindsay often refers to the dominatrixes share some very specific advice about how they negotiate and hold on to power

-There is a lot of psychology and real insights into human behavior and what triggers certain reactions. By revealing these Lindsay helps us see why we get the reactions we do, and how we can pivot to get.. well everything we want. 

Who is this book for:

Everyone that wants to get everything they want- of course. 

Episode Links:

Cathy Heller’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Don’t Keep Your Day Job: How to Turn your Passion into your Career

Teneshia Warner’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of The Big Stretch: 90 Days to Expand Your Dreams, Crush Your Goals, and Create Your Own Success

Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of The Future is Faster Thank You Think. How Converging Technologies Are Transforming Business, Industries and Our Lives

Tina Hay’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Napkin Finance: Build your Wealth in 30 seconds or less

Lindsay Goldwert’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Bow Down: Lessons from Dominatrixes on How to Get Everything You Want.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

New Year, New Grownup attitude towards your money. We chat with Tina Hay, author of  the new book Napkin Finance: Build Wealth in 30 seconds or less, about how grownups can approach savings, investing, retirement strategies and philanthropy in 2020. 

4 Simple and fun ways to be a financial grownup for the New Year

1. Savings

2. Investing

3. Retirement

4. Philanthropy

Episode Links:

• Tina's website www.napkinfinance.com

• Tina’s book Napkin Finance

Follow Tina + Napkin Finance!

• Instagram - @napkinfinance

• Twitter - @napkinfinance

• Facebook - @napkinfinance

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Welcome to a new year and a new decade. Bobbi shares some personal news and insights, and then some big changes coming to the podcast, the financial grownup community, and her other podcast, Money with Friends. 

Happy New Year. I hope everyone enjoyed the holidays and maybe some vacation time with friends and family or however you wanted to celebrate- even if your holidays were solo or whatever- because as a grownup you should be able to celebrate however you want. 

This is a special episode and I’m going to be talking first about some personal decisions I am making and then some decisions having to do with changes here at financial grownup and with my other podcast Money with Friends. 

First- the personal. Today, the day this episode is being released, is my birthday. And the crazy thing is that despite being married, and being a mom, a stepmom and having my dog waffles.. I still am coming to terms with the fact that apparently I am a grownup. 

I am also coming to terms with the fact that I am tired of being overwhelmed and exhausted. At one point last year, I was offered an opportunity by a friend of a friend that I really wanted to do, and I was so busy- I literally just wrote back something like- want to but in overwhelm. It may have even been just the word overwhelm. Between all my business related projects and my personal responsibilities to my family and friends, and just way too many things I said yes to, I was going from early in the morning until I collapsed into bed at night. And that’s not a good state for anyone to be in. And so I need to stop the overwhelm. 

Some of you may have noticed that my instagram got reeeallly quiet in the last 2 weeks of 2019.  We were running encore’s  of the podcast and I just decided not to share my general personal activities while on vacation- at least not in real time. As has become a thing to say- I wanted to be present with my family.  I’m sure it will kill any positive algorithm related momentum because instagram does not like it when you are not active, but I wanted to see how it felt to just not participate. I also didn’t look at what my friends or anyone I follow were up to. Mixed feelings. The truth is I enjoy seeing what my friends are up to. I like knowing where they are going when they travel and what family milestones they are celebrating or just feeling connected even when we are all busy. But it is also time consuming Same thing with posting- love sharing but taking a break freed up lots of time- even if I did use that time to not be all that productive over break. Taking a break, over a vacation break, is a good thing. I’m glad I did it. 

I’m also trying to figure out WHAT to post. I tend to post a lot about my podcast guests because I think they are amazing and really want to get the word out- and I love supporting their projects.  and I’ve been shy about going on camera myself and talking too much about my own life on instagram stories.. but I’d love to hear more about what you guys want. Maybe DM me now that I’m back online- I’ll look out for the notes I promise. 

On that note, I am going to start sharing more about the things that I use on a personal level. If you are signed up for what used to be the financial grownup newsletter- and I know you haven’t gotten one since 2018-  you will soon get something my assistant Ashley and I have been working on for quite some time called The Grownup List- and it will be a very short resource of things I enjoy that you may want to incorporate into your own grownup life. If you want to get on the Grownup List- just go to my website bobbirebell.com and you will see the sign up button. There’s also a link in my Instagram bio at bobbirebell1. I would love to include listener suggestions- so feel free to be in touch at hello@financialgrownup.com if you have ideas to include. 

So now let’s talk about the podcast. I started the podcast about 2 years ago. This is episode 267. I can’t even believe it. My editor Steve Stewart- made a great suggestion to share some of my favorite episodes and I was going to- then came that overwhelm I was taking about! It’s like choosing your favorite children. What I will do is remind you that if you want to learn more about a topic or a guest- go to my website, bobbirebell.com/financialgrownuppodcast and use that search bar - it’s a great resource and can help you find an episode that hits that topic. You can listen or just read the transcript in the show notes. 

I have also felt that because I have been putting out sooo many episodes each one doesn’t always get the attention it deserves because there is always a new one that kind of bumps it from the top of the feed, and from my focus on promoting it. So- I’m going to focus on releasing just one episode  a week going forward. As of now that will be on Tuesdays. 

It will also give me and my social media channels a break from what I sometimes feel is a lot of well.. promotion. Maybe leave a little more space for more content just about life and other things I want to share with all of you. 

I also want to make time for my other projects including my next book- which is going to be a parenting book- more on that to come- and I also am fortunate to work with some prominent brands helping to get their message out, and I enjoy speaking to groups so I want to make sure to keep time for those projects as well. And be in touch if I can be helpful in those areas- if you have events coming up where you need an emcee, a speaker or moderator. 

Finally- exciting news about my other podcast Money with Friends. I hope if you are not already subscribed, you will do so. I’m so proud of how Money with Friends has evolved over the last 7 months since we launched in June. It is now 6 days a week - don’t worry - we batch record so we don’t get overwhelmed). And it is also a short podcast like this one. My co-host is Joe Saul-Sehy - who some of you may know from his other podcast Stacking Benjamins. We have been recording  on Facebook Live but we will be moving to YouTube imminently so please go subscribe to the Money with Friends YouTube channel we started so you can watch us record live- we actually take questions and comments form the audience. You can also be part of the show by participating in our instagram stories polls and questions- the handle is @moneyfriendspod. We also have a cast of thought leaders who come in to co-host with us- journalists, shopping experts, Real estate entrepreneurs, CFP’s  and so on, so you get to ask them questions as well. Right now we are putting together the cast for our third season and it is looking to be amazing. 

Money with Friends has been growing faster than Joe and I ever imagined- there have been a lot of unexpected twists and turns in the show’s short history- and we’ll be talking about that and revealing a lot of behind the scenes secrets-at  Podfest in Orlando in early March- so let us know if you are going to be there- or if you are in the  Orlando area. We are considering doing a meet up and would love to make it happen. You can DM us on our instagram at moneyfriendspod.

I want to finally thank all of you for being part of my grownup journey. I truly appreciate your support and look forward to us all growing together as the financial grownups that we are. 

Episode Links

• Instagram - @moneyfriendspod

• Stacking Benjamins podcast

Just in time for the holidays, Jen Smith, co-host of the Frugal Friends podcast and the author of the new book "Pay Off Your Debt For Good" joins us with her spending strategies so we can all shop like Financial Grownups.

3 strategies to spend money like a Financial Grownup

1. Focus on your habits

2. Figure out what you value

3. Let go of guilt and shame

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Jen’s Website - www.modernfrugality.com

• Jen’s podcast The Frugal Friends Podcast

• Jen’s new book - Pay Off Your Debt For Good

Follow Jen!

• Instagram - @modernfrugality

• Facebook - @modernfrugality

• Twitter - @modernfrugality

• Pinterest - @modernfrugality

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

The gig economy is not going away anytime soon and that means we have a big challenge because a lot of us dong’ get steady paychecks. Freelance writer and personal finance expert Zina Kumok of ConsciousCoins.com shares her success strategies and more.

5 Ways to Manage Unsteady Income

• Make sure to have an Emergency Fund

• Find the minimum amount you need to earn a month

• Having extra money

• Diversification

• Increase your rates on a regular basis

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Zina’s Website - www.consciouscoins.com

Follow Zina!

• Instagram - @zinakumok

• Facebook - @consciouscoins

• Twitter - @zinakumok

• Pinterest - @zinakumok

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Big cities have a lot to offer- but can be expensive. Co-host Grant Sabatier, creator of Millennnial Money and author of the new book “Financial Freedom. A Proven Path to All the Money You Will Ever Need” recently moved to New York City despite the costs. He shares his three biggest tips to making it work for your financial grownup money goals, and still live life to the fullest.



Here are 3 tips for expensive city living

• How you can plan for the big fixed expenses

• Why you should balance the convenience of prepped vs non-prepped items

• The importance of getting out of the city

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Grant's book - Financial Freedom: A Proven Path to All the Money You Will Ever Need

• Check out the book trailer here

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Bobbi reveals her favorite new money related books, and how to decide if they are right for you. This month’s picks include The Startup Squad by Brian Weisfeld and Nicole Kear, Grown and Flown: How to support your teen, stay close as a family and raise independent adults which is by Mary Dell Harrington and Lisa Heffernan, And then finally The Essential First-Time Home Buyers book: How to buy a house, Get a Mortgage and Close a Real Estate deal by Judy Dutton and Realtor.com editors.

Some ground rules:

There will be only positive comments. Because why waste your time telling you about something I don’t think is worth your time. 

Also - we limit our selections to books written by authors that appear on the podcast. In most cases they will have already appeared- so you can then go back and listen to their episode if you want to learn more. Occasionally, the episode will be in the future - so hopefully you will subscribe so you don’t miss it. 

Here are 3 books I truly enjoyed in the past month!

Book #1

The Startup Squad - which is aimed at kids but I will tell you it hits on themes and lessons many adults in business will truly benefit from.

Here’s what I liked about it:

1. Don’t be fooled by the illustration on the cover or the fact that this is about a lemonade stand. This is a sophisticated book disguised as a kids book. The book covers a lot of territory.

2. They get into extreme detail- for example: the cost of ingredients, pricing strategy and profit margin, organization and planning ahead, design and branding, the importance of selecting the right location to attract target customers- and of course how to figure out who your target customers are in the first place.

3. The book addresses the more human issues associated with a business- including dealing with imposter syndrome, competition, and interpersonal relationships among team members.

Who is this book for?

This book is of course great for kids but I strongly recommend it for aspiring entrepreneurs. It covers all the bases. I also recommend parents read it and then discuss with their kids. Investors will also benefit because they can learn more about how to identify a business that is setting itself up for success, and the skillset to look for in founders. There are so many layered nuances to this book that it really creates a framework for understanding exactly what goes into a successful startup. I loved this this book and am thrilled it is the first in a series.

Book #2

Moving on the the next life stage- the teenage years. Here we have Grown and Flown: How to support your teen, stay close as a family and raise independent adults which is by Mary Dell Harrington and Lisa Heffernan,who are the founders of the #1 website for parents of teens and young adults. People magazine named them 2 of 25 women changing the world.

Here’s what I liked about it:

1. While there are endless resources for new parents, the information overload thins out substantially as kids get older. But in this age of extended childhood and delayed adulthood, we all need more guidance

2. While the authors have a lot of great advice, the book’s heart and depth comes from it’s broad sourcing of contributors. You feel like you have an army of advisors bringing you information you were either looking for- didn’t know you needed.

3. They go there. Topics include the expected on family life and happiness, college admissions and academics. But they also tackle, love, sex and the ultimate taboo- mental health.. and yes even money. For example: in the chapter on college admissions, the authors point out the importance of understanding the financial costs- the sticker price, meaning the listed tuition, is not the whole story- or even close. Financial aid letters can be misleading And to make sure you understand the average number of years it takes a student to graduate- it is not always four. An example of the advice: Don’t let a small price differential keep you from choosing the school that is the best fit - but that debt also matters a lot and needs to be factored in.

Who is this book for?

Primarily it is for parents of kids ages 15 -25- the teenage and college years. But as the parent of a 12 year old- I can say it’s never too early to learn about these years and if anything it will make you appreciate the simpler times of younger kids.

Book #3

The third book I am recommending this month is The Essential First-Time Home Buyers book: How to buy a house, Get a Mortgage and Close a Real Estate Deal

Here’s what I liked about it:

1. It is to the point. This book is going to get you the information you need, and is a great compliment to the realtor.com website- it is self contained and an easy shortcut for first time homeowners.

2. It has fun and fascinating (and sometimes reality check) trivia. Did you know: the average in state move costs $2300? Moving out of state averages $4300!

3. It cuts through the BS with recurring “myths” like the the fact that a new home doesn’t need to be inspected- or that you can’t buy a home if you have bad credit- even a score under 600. . The editors also tell you the truth that a human often won’t. For example: did you know that your appraiser works for the lender- not you. My favorite: 5 things never to say at a real estate closing.

Who is this book for?

Clearly people who are buying their first home. It’s a small book and you can literally carry it with you when you look at homes rather than fumble to look stuff up on your phone. But also current home owners can benefit- as can renters - because in the end every time we decide to rent or stay in our home- that is a decision made that should be done in comparison to the benefits or drawbacks of owning a home. This book lays out what you need to know- so that you can be deliberate in your decision whether or not to buy a home or upgrade or downsize to a new home

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Brian Weisfeld’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of The Startup Squad

• Mary Dell’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Grown and Flown: How to support your teen, stay close as a family and raise independent adults

• Judy Dutton’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of The Essential First-Time Home Buyers book: How to buy a house, Get a Mortgage and Close a Real Estate Deal

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

The gig economy is here to stay, and freelancing can be either a side hustle or a full time job. Cody Berman of Fly to Fi joins us with 5 tips on how to maximize your time and profits doing what you love, on your own terms.

5 things you must know to freelance like a Financial Grownup

• Take the time to get set up intentionally

• Have a niche

• Invest in the right tools

• Know how to document

• Create systems

Episode Links

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Cody’s website - https://flytofi.com/

• Cody’s podcast The FI Show

• Cody’s Freelance Course - https://goldcityventures.com/financial-grownup

How to get TWO discounts for Cody’s Freelance course:

• You MUST purchase the course through the link above by June 30, 2019 in order to get the second discount!

• After you purchase the course through the link above, take a screenshot of this podcast episode within 7 days of purchase

• Post it on social media and tag Cody and Bobbi within one week of buying the course.. Bobbi is at @bobbirebell1 and Cody is at @CodyDBerman on instagram

• After the 30-day money back guarantee has expired, we will make arrangements to send you the additional 40 percent off the course.

• We wanted to give a huge shout out to our editor Steve Stewart. In Cody’s freelance course, you will find an exclusive interview with Steve, who shares a bit of his knowledge in the podcast editing world.

Follow Cody!

• Instagram - @CodyDBerman

• Twitter - @flytofi

• Facebook - @flytofi