Ashley Kaufman, who bought her NYC apartment at age 24 shares how she did it, plus her best money tips for financial grownups. 

Money Tips

• Be the planner of the friend group

• Always be searching for discounts

• Have a monthly self reflection session on your spending

• Don't make yourself feel bad for spending money, but live within your means, do not spend more than you have

• Always buy pet insurance!

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Follow Name!

• Instagram - @ashleykaufman and @walnutthemaltese
  

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends, a big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to write because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you.

Bobbi Rebell:
First of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest, and it was a lot of work. But I really love doing it and I'm really happy with how it came out.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. I truly appreciate it and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Ashley Kaufman:
When it came to moving into the apartment, I made a running list of here are all the things that I'm going to need to purchase, from a spatula to a couch. It came down to me creating the Excel spreadsheet with three different retailers and a column for more specialty items and comparing the prices. Maybe the items wouldn't be exactly the same at three different stores, but it would be close enough that I could decide between each of them and compare the prices because every cent counted.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
The big question I am constantly asked about my book, Launching Financial Grownups is, did your stepdaughter really buy her apartment at age 24? Then, how did she do it? Then, how can we do it? Well, the truth is, she focused and she made some really tough choices. It was not all perfect to say the least. Ashley also truly embraced the financial grownup lifestyle. You're going to hear more about that soon.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ashley wrote the epilogue to the book, Launching Financial Grownups, but until now no one has heard directly from her about all the details. Ashley not only reveals in her interview exactly how she did it and what she might do differently, she also is going to share her top money tips, including some that I am adopting myself. Yeah, you can tell I'm pretty proud of her. Here is my 25-year-old stepdaughter, Ashley Kaufman.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ashley Kaufman, you are a financial grownup and I can't believe I'm saying that after I've known you since you were eight years old. Oh my gosh. Welcome.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you for having me. Can't believe it's taken this long to get on the podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. First of all, let me just say that you're the first of your siblings to come on the podcast, and your father has come on for our Summer Watch Series, and he does want to return. But he never came on to give actual money advice, money tips like you are, so you are special, Ashley.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're going to get to your money tips, which by the way, a lot of people know you because you wrote the epilogue to Launching Financial Grownups. It's been a big hit. Everyone says that is the best part of the book. I get a lot of people asking me something that we talk about in the book, which is the fact that you bought an apartment at age 24. I want to give you a chance to talk about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you do it in short, but also how has it been? Because the book was written really a year ago, more than a year ago at this point and a lot has happened.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. I was able to do it in short, by saving a lot, living at home after college and saving every dollar that I made. Immediately after graduating from college, I picked up a summer job, even though I had a job starting in August where I work now. I picked up that job with the intention of continuing to save and aggressively saving so that I could buy an apartment and move out.

Ashley Kaufman:
Not that I didn't enjoy living at home and eating with Harry every night, but when you're 22 and moving home after college, you really want to move out and live your own life like all of your friends are. So it was definitely hard in that regard just because I saw my friends living their own lives, renting apartments all over the city and furnishing them and making it their own space. I felt a little claustrophobic, just kind of like, I don't have my own space. I'm living at home.

Ashley Kaufman:
But in the end it's been worth it. I absolutely adore where I live now. It took a little bit of adjustment after moving in also to just make it feel like home, and it's taken the majority of the year to get there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Before I get to asking you about how it is living in your own apartment, tell me about the choices that you had to make, because it sounds simple, "Well, I just saved a lot of money by living with my parents." But it's not really that simple. You did have to make some choices and you did miss out on some things or make adjustments to your plans many times.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. I think COVID helped a lot and not being able to go out with friends. I did also miss out on some things my friends were doing, like going to music festivals, which in retrospect seems like it was a massive waste of money anyway, but seeing all my friends there and having a good time, it definitely felt like I was missing out on something.

Ashley Kaufman:
There were also times where my friends would be going out to brunch every week and I just wouldn't go along with them because every dollar ended up counting. I was really tight when I did put the down payment down on my apartment and then had to go buy furniture, so every dollar ended up adding up to allowing me to live where I am now.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing that stuck with a lot of people in the epilogue in Launching Financial Grownups is you said something like, "I love Excel. I'm an Excel kind of girl." How did you use systems to help you save the money, track money, and then help you when you were moving into this apartment and setting up your own home?

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. I do love Excel. I took a course on Excel in college, and since then, just everything has been in Excel. I have my monthly budgeting in there, which I have since college. I have a list of my running expenses that are the same every month, as well as a list of things I would like to do that month. If it doesn't add up to have me saving what I would like to be saving every month, I will make cutbacks and adjust, but Excel really runs my life.

Ashley Kaufman:
I mean, I have tabs for vacations I want to go on, I have tabs for, here's an expense that comes up once a year, like renewing my pass to the zoo, which I really enjoy, but I have to budget for that. It helps me keep track of that. When it came to moving into the apartment, I made a running list of here are all the things that I'm going to need to purchase, from a spatula to a couch. It came down to me creating the Excel spreadsheet with three different retailers and a column for more specialty items and comparing the prices.

Ashley Kaufman:
Maybe the items wouldn't be exactly the same at three different stores, but it would be close enough that I could decide between each of them and compare the prices because every cent counted.

Bobbi Rebell:
Looking back, what advice would you give to other people that have short-term, but big goals? Not necessarily buying an apartment, because not everybody wants to do that. It's not the right choice for everybody. People might want to move around, have other priorities, but if they have a short-term goal, what's the best way to get there?

Ashley Kaufman:
To really take a step back and look at what you're spending and do I really need be doing this? I mentioned earlier that I have a zoo membership. Maybe every year, I don't need to renew that if I don't see myself going, and I have a financial goal that I need to hit, or let's say something like I've been looking into buying a new couch. There's small steps that you can take to get to where you need to go by just taking that step back and reviewing all of those choices.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just being accountable and doing a self-audit of where you are right now and what matters most to you for that season of your life.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. That goes into our money tips that you brought with you that are new money tips, but I think makes so much sense for everybody, not just young people, but it's very relatable, certainly in the young adult phase of life that you're in and you're 25 years old right now. I can't believe it.

Ashley Kaufman:
I know.

Bobbi Rebell:
The first of five money tips that we're going to get into has to do with, I would call it the FOMO thing, like your peer group and what's going on there. What's your money tip there?

Ashley Kaufman:
My money tip for friend groups is to always be the planner in the friend group, by being the planner, you can be cognizant of other people's requirements while also staying within your own budget. If people want to go out at night to say a club or something, you don't have to go to the fanciest nightclub to go have a good time with your friends. Some people might want to in your friend group, but other people might not be able to afford it.

Ashley Kaufman:
You can really make sure that you are courteous towards others while also staying within your own budget and maybe the budgets of your friends, if you're aware of their needs and requirements financially as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that because we tend to think just reflect on ourselves like, "Wow, this is a stretch for me financially." But we also may not realize that it may be a stretch for everybody, but nobody really wants to say anything. It's actually a really considerate thing of your friend group to bring up the cost and to be the planner and control those things. Your second money tip is something your dad has gotten so good at and I'm so proud of him, and it has to do with making a little extra effort when you're buying stuff.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yes. My second tip would be to always search for discounts, which goes back into being a planner. If you want something, wait for it to go on sale, wait to find a discount of some sort. If it's travel, be planning over a year in advance and make sure that you are tracking any sort of discount. Marriott hotels I know specifically you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance or up to 48 hours in some cases so it doesn't hurt to book something while you're searching for something else, or searching for a better deal.

Ashley Kaufman:
There are also corporate discounts to look at at larger companies. Discounts through loyalty programs. I'll occasionally get something in my inbox from Marriott due to my status. You get X, Y, and Z number of extra points for participating in this program we have going on, or memberships like Costco. Costco Travel actually has some great deals to be found.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Your money tip number three has to do, I think, with the ultimate in wellness and self-care.

Ashley Kaufman:
My third money tip is to always have a monthly reflection session. Whether you think that you need it or you don't, you probably do. It's just sitting down with your monthly credit card statements and your bank statements, and just seeing where there could be changes. It doesn't necessarily need to be cutting things, but it could be you have a subscription service like Ipsy or Birchbox, but every time you walk into TJ Maxx or Petco, you're buying makeup or things for your dog.

Ashley Kaufman:
You could be canceling those subscriptions and spending it on items that you really want, rather than what's just showing up in a subscription box.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's really good advice. I'm going to give that some thought, because I have a makeup/skincare subscription box that comes four times a year, that I do love the surprise element of it, but the truth is that they're not necessarily things that I would buy. I'm going to take that one to heart, Ashley. All right. The next one has to do with really the emotional elements. It's an emotional money tip.

Ashley Kaufman:
My next tip would be to don't make yourself feel bad for spending money, but live within your means. Don't spend more than you have, but don't make yourself feel bad for going out for a $5 coffee with your friends. I'm very guilty of this.

Ashley Kaufman:
I will occasionally cancel plans because I feel like it's not within my budget and it makes you feel bad because number one, you're ruining relationships with friends, and number two, you're really are developing an unhealthy relationship with money, where you feel like you have to cut something else in order to make up for something that really isn't hurting you that much.

Ashley Kaufman:
If it's not within your means, go ahead, cancel the coffee date with your friends. But if it's really not going to stop you from paying your bills that month, it might be okay to spend a little extra.

Bobbi Rebell:
I would add that don't forget that at many coffee shops like Starbucks, even though you think the smallest one is a tall, there's actually a short, which is even cheaper. You can get a short, plain coffee and have your coffee plans and not spend as much money as you... You don't have to spend for the 7 or $8 fancy espresso drink.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number five is my favorite of all, because you are a new pet owner, which is something that you did wait to do until you could afford it. We had a lot of financial discussions as a family because you have a dependent, Ashley.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. Yeah. We just brought home my little dog, Walnut. She's a Maltese puppy. She is my entire world, but my tip related to dogs would be to always buy pet insurance, cats, dogs, whatever you can insure, always insure your pets. It should never be a question of whether you can afford care for your animal. I built my $500 deductible into my emergency fund when I went and signed up for pet insurance.

Ashley Kaufman:
I know that if something happens with my dog, it's a $500 deductible that I've covered in my emergency fund and then my insurance will cover 90% of it. I don't have to worry about calling the vet for the smallest of things. My dog had an episode in the middle of the night a few weeks ago where she was shaking. It wasn't super concerning, but I didn't hesitate to call the vet and find out that it was probably normal because I knew that I could cover the cost.

Bobbi Rebell:
I remember when you were thinking about adopting a dog, that you really in advance researched all the costs, including medical costs. I think that was so important because it is a dependent and it is important to understand the full scope of what you could be in store for, because you love your puppy. You're never going to say no and it's important to know what you're in store for. I was so proud of you just in the run-up to getting Walnut.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note, final thoughts and where can people be in touch with you? I know Walnut, the Maltese, is a big star as well so people might want to follow her.

Ashley Kaufman:
You can follow me on Instagram @AshleyKaufman or Walnut @Walnutthemaltese. Walnut is much more interesting on Instagram than I am, I have to say.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you are the brains behind the Walnutthemaltese Instagram account, so you get credit for both accounts. Thank you so much. I'm so proud of you, Ashley.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, Walnut is starting to get inquiries for brand deals. She is so unbelievably cute. Feel free to DM @Walnutthemaltese on Instagram. I loved how candid Ashley was about the importance of having a healthy relationship with money and prioritizing living your life. She's okay missing some music festivals that frankly, she probably just wasn't that into anyway, but she does kick herself for foregoing coffee plans with a friend because she's so committed to staying on budget. It's delicate.

Bobbi Rebell:
I've talked about my own issues letting go and letting myself spend money. The lines are blurry on this, but when it comes down to it, money is the means to do what you want, so do what you want. Apply that thinking and don't let an unhealthy relationship with money keep you from living your life. I would tell everyone to replay this episode, but the truth is, we have it all for you in the show notes. Just go to my website at bobbirebell.com for those. It also will give you a full transcript.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also can sign up for our newsletter there, where we send podcast previews and interesting news articles to you just twice a month. I haven't asked this in a while, but please take a minute and write a review of the podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you enjoy listening to us. Biggest thanks to all of you for supporting the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please, please help me get the word out. Tell a friend, share on social and just keep listening and being in touch on all the socials. Big thanks to Ashley Kaufman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Dorie Clark shares game-changing tips to upgrade our work and personal lives including a new alternative to the passion vs. money career debate, jet-lag productivity, heartbeat income and working more hours- in less time. 

5 Money Tips To Play And Profit At The Long Game

• Rethink Multitasking

• Use Jet lag for productivity

• Do something interesting

• Ask- but wait a year first

• Patience leads to the pay off- but don’t be passive

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Follow Dorie!

• Instagram - @dorieclark

• Facebook - @dorieclarkauthor

• Twitter - @dorieclark

• LinkedIn - @doriec

• YouTube - @DorieClark

• Website - dorieclark.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates, if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Dorie Clark:
Lower the stakes a little bit, because honestly, thinking about what is my passion is the dating equivalent of meeting somebody on OkCupid And then the next day your friends just keep saying, "Well, is he your soulmate? Is he the one?" It's like, "Oh my God, I don't know. Give me some time."

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, Grownup friends. You guys are in for a treat. This week's interview is someone I have been trying to get on the podcast for quite some time. It is Dorie Clark. She is the author of the new book, The Long Game, it's her fourth book actually. If you're not familiar with her, and frankly, even if you are familiar with her, you're going to be so happy to listen to this episode. You're going to get so much out of this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Dorie is a big time public speaker, thought leader, and as I mentioned, an author and so much more. We totally hit it off. She covered some great topics for us, including what we can do if we haven't found our big passion. We all talk about follow your passion, but some of us, it's not so obvious what that passion is, but Dorie has a great solution.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also talked about super easy ways to up our productivity. Yes, you can have more than 24 hours in a day apparently. I'll tell you, some of these things were obvious once Dorie pointed them out, but they really weren't obvious to me beforehand. They're easy things that we can do once we know how to do them from Dorie. You'll see, we were doing it all wrong.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, we're going to talk about what we can learn from the amount of time it takes to learn to do a handstand. It was a great story and it made so much sense. If we're being honest, I, by the way, can not do a handstand and I'm not going to put in the time to do this handstand thing, guys, but the lesson that Dorie is going to give us totally works. This is all going to make sense. I know this was a little bit confusing, but just trust me. Listen to the interview. Here is The Long Game author, Dorie Clark.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Dorie Clark. You're a financial grownup.

Dorie Clark:
Bobbi, thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I'm so glad to finally have you on. I've been a fan of yours since our mutual friend, Danielle Towne, introduced us a few years ago, and at that time started reading your books, Reinventing You, Entrepreneurial You, and you have some other ones in the mix, but most recently, The Long Game: How to Be a Long-Term Thinker in a Short-Term World. You can see all of the tattered pages. Congratulations.

Dorie Clark:
Thank you. It is amazing. It looks like a dog attacked it. I'm glad you were that voracious with it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I read it by the pool, so there was a little bit of suntan lotion and water and all that stuff, but it was truly loved, mainly because I know you as the super successful Dorie Clark, you're such a celebrated thought leader, but you're very vulnerable in this book.

Dorie Clark:
Thank you. Well, one of the things that has been challenging for me over the course of writing books, and this is my fourth one, and it's not necessarily a philosophical or emotional challenge, but it's actually just overcoming training. But I started my career as a journalist, specifically a political journalist, and the thing that you learn above all else is you are not the story. You are not the interesting part of the story, you write about other people. That was the frame that I was coming from. Over the course of writing my four books, I've come to learn that actually, in terms of what connects with readers, what seems to really make an impact, that's exactly wrong. I mean, what we look for in the news I think is very different than what we look for in business or career books.

Dorie Clark:
Over time, the part that people seem to respond to the most strongly was actually hearing some of my own experiences, and so over the years, I've really learned to weave more about what I've done and what I've tried and what I've gone through into the books as a compliment to the narrative and the reporting that I did. I'm really glad that you responded to that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I really did. The book is very relatable and I think a lot of people in our Grownup audience will feel the same way. You have a lot of incredible money and, frankly, life tips in the book. I want to dive right into those. I have five that I've highlighted. The first one is you talk about rethinking multitasking, because multitasking has gotten a lot of pushback in recent years, but you have a different perspective.

Dorie Clark:
Absolutely. It is completely true that perhaps what we think of when it comes to multitasking is bad. That would be the equivalent of like, "Oh, I'm actually pretending do a podcast interview with you, Bobbi, but I'm actually checking my email," and that is not true, by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
You could pull it off.

Dorie Clark:
Well, the truth is, if you're trying to use the same parts of your brain, something is going to slip and it's just going to be suboptimal all around. But something that I realized, through some very meticulous time-tracking studies that I did over the course of several years, is that actually there are very complimentary activities that you can do. I mean, some examples might be working out and listening to a professional development book, or taking a walk and calling your mom, or whatever the case is, but it's two activities that you can do both of them equally well at the same time. It could be a cooking dinner with a friend, So you're doing a chore, but you're also visiting with someone that you want to spend time with. During my time tracking, I actually would double count those activities if I could legitimately do both of them equally well, and I came to realize that I'm actually able to build in about 28% more time into my week by doing that. I've become a huge fan of strategic multitasking.

Bobbi Rebell:
What I love about that is it's the anti-workaholic mentality, because it's giving you more downtime.

Dorie Clark:
Absolutely. It's really just being a little bit more thoughtful. I mean, sometimes we fritter away these moments. I mean, I remember back early in my career when I didn't live in New York and I had a car and I'd drive to work, sometimes I just wouldn't think about it and I'd put on top 40 radio and most of it was just listening to advertisements. I mean, that is legitimately wasted time. Whereas, with a little bit more thought, you're listening to some kind of an educational podcast, like this one, or you're listening to an audio book and you're actually using that as professional development time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number two, use jet lag for productivity.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. Speaking of things that we normally treat as wasted time, jet lag is often a top of the list. I mean, we all know, when we're jet lagged, you're not going to get anything "meaningful" done in terms of the way that we normally think of meaningful work. I mean, you can't do anything detail-oriented, you're propping your eyelids open, you're not much use, but what I came to realize is that, actually, we can begin to think about that time differently.

Dorie Clark:
Now, I would never say, "Oh, let's do your QuickBooks when you're jet lagged," that would be a bad move, but what I actually did one time, sort of inadvertently, was I was jet lagged on a trip to Russia and I ended up being able to do basically an entire year's worth of strategic planning while I was keeping myself awake at a cafe, partly because when you are jet lagged in that way, when you're half sleep deprived, your brain is able to make creative associations that are not necessarily logical and linear. I was able to be a lot more big picture about my thoughts and it enabled me to do better strategic planning than if I actually had been well slept and in a more logical frame of mind. I think it's really about matching your energy and your state of being to the tasks that are most appropriate at that time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number three, this one, I love this because it's a strategy that solves the issue of should you follow your passion or should you follow what's going to make a lot of money. You say focus on doing something interesting.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. What I've seen, and I'm sure you probably have too, Bobbi, is that there is so much pressure in our culture to find your passion. What's your passion? You don't know what your passion is? People can feel kind of inadequate and browbeaten at a certain point if you're not following your passion. I know a lot of people, smart, talented, hardworking people, that maybe they've reached a point where they have been working so hard and so long, they might not even necessarily be sure what their passions are anymore. With the work and the kids, they have kind of turned that part off because it's not even something you can really dwell on.

Dorie Clark:
What I wanted to do in my book, The Long Game, was to lower the stakes a little bit, because honestly, thinking about what is my passion is the dating equivalent of meeting somebody on OkCupid And then the next day your friends just keep saying, "Well, is he your soulmate? I mean, is he the one?" It's like, "Oh my God, I don't know. Give me some time." Instead of looking for the passion, instead of looking for the soulmate, what I suggest is just do what's interesting, just explore something that seems interesting. It's a low bar, but almost all of us are at least able to tell, okay, this seems interesting to me or not. Then if it stays interesting, keep moving in that direction, and if it doesn't, it's your signal to pivot. I think that that is sometimes a more sane and sustainable way to begin to move in the direction of things that you care about more.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, that can evolve. We're not going to go too deeply into it because I want people to read it more fully in the book, but one thing you weave throughout the book that I loved hearing about is your passion for theater, which was not something you did as a kid. You weren't a theater kid on stage every day, but you started to develop it and now it's evolving into perhaps a business. I can't wait to see the rest of the story evolve, but it can be something that sort of weaves through your life through different things, even taking a comedy course, different things that you did.

Bobbi Rebell:
But in the interest of moving on, we're going to go to number four because otherwise we'll just go on a million tangents with you. Number four, ask, but wait a year first. Because we do push people to go, go after that mentor, get a champion, get someone who's going to be a sponsor at work, but it's a little delicate. You say a year, that seems so long.

Dorie Clark:
It's true, it's true. I like to be a little extreme in this because I think that we have a cultural problem, because certainly in the United States, but in many other countries as well, where we have internalized way too much, the mentality of, well, it doesn't hurt to ask. I would like to say, actually yes, sometimes it does hurt to ask, because if you are making an inappropriate request too early in a relationship, you will destroy that relationship. Now, where people go sometimes is they say, "Oh, well I don't want to be a wallflower. I don't want to be stupid about things." Well, the point is, it's not that you never ask, it's that you have to let a relationship evolve to the point where the ask is appropriate and contextual.

Dorie Clark:
I mean, I am sure this is probably the case for you, Bobbi, with your business and the media profile that you've cultivated. I certainly experience this as well, where I will meet somebody, maybe at an event, maybe we connect on LinkedIn or something like that, and then five minutes later they're saying, "Oh, hey, I see you're connected to so-and-so," insert super prominent person, "Can you connect us?" It's like, "Wait, I don't even know anything about you." Also, people don't really get this context, but a million people are asking the same thing. I don't want to blow up my relationship with somebody by sending them five random people a day. It's important to be thoughtful and to be judicious.

Dorie Clark:
It's not like ask them anything. If it's like, "Oh, Bobbi, I really like that sweater. Where did you get it?" Fine, ask them that, but I'm talking about wait a year before you ask somebody for something that involves political capital. When you do that, you're able to establish a genuine relationship so that they understand that you are not in it for the wrong reasons and you're not in it to use them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and using is very different from mutually beneficial friendships. There's nothing wrong with that.

Bobbi Rebell:
The fifth one, my fifth tip I want you to talk about, is patience leads to a payoff, but it's not just patience, you have to not be passive. That's a lot of P words, but yes, patience leads to the payoff, but don't be passive.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. In The Long Game, I have a concept that I write about called strategic patients. This is something that is dear to my heart, because frankly, from the time that I've been a little kid, patience has never been my strong suit. I have not been very good at it, but it is something that I have had to learn over time. I think the part that used to bother me about patience was that it did seem so passive. I mean, the way that it gets talked about oftentimes, and at least how my mom would talk about it, it was like, "Oh, we're just going to sit back, good things will happen. Just be patient, things work out." I can't help it, I'm a little more type A than that. I like to make things happen, not just have them happen.

Dorie Clark:
We understand, of course, we can't make everything happen, but it's important for us to have agency and for us to have autonomy in our lives and to control what we can control. Therefore, I have created essentially a hybrid model of strategic patience, because the truth is, yeah, it takes time, they don't happen as fast as you want, but you don't want to be a sucker about it. So that means actually developing hypotheses about, well, how long should this take and what are the signs that it's working or not working, how can I monitor them and adjust accordingly?

Dorie Clark:
The truth is, there's a lot of power. If something is going to take five years and you know it's going to take five years and you're monitoring for your progress, you're actually able to weather that a lot better. I mean, would it be better if it was fast? Yes, but you're able to weather that in a way that mostly you couldn't if you thought it was going to take six months and then it's not happening, it's not happening. That's when people give up, and they give up prematurely and it means that they are not able to accomplish their dreams.

Bobbi Rebell:
You give such wonderful and tangible examples of that in the book. My favorite is the headstand example.

Dorie Clark:
Yeah, thank you. This is one of my favorites as well. It actually comes from Jeff Bezos from one of his shareholder letters to Amazon stockholders. He tells the story about how a friend of his hired a handstand coach for yoga, which is pretty funny of a concept, but it turns out it is actually a legit hard to do a handstand. What the handstand coach told Bezos' friend is that the average person guesstimates that it'll take about two weeks of practice in order to be able to do a handstand. That is not the case. It turns out it takes about six months of daily practice to be able to do a yoga handstand.

Dorie Clark:
The lesson I think for all of us is that unless we are thoughtful and deliberate, it is easy to wildly over or underestimate what is going to be necessary for something. We really have to be aware of that. We have to check our assumptions and be thoughtful, because if you think something's going to take two weeks and it ends up taking six months, which is a factor of 12 difference, you're going to give up, you are going to get discouraged. That's true whether your goal is writing a book, whether it's being featured in a high-profile publication, whether it's building a new career. Developing that strategic patience is a really important prerequisite to being able to persevere and succeed.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many wonderful insights in your book, The Long Game. I'm looking forward to hearing back from our listeners when they read it, so everyone should check it out. It will be everywhere, so we don't need to go through where your book will be, but where are you if people want to follow up with you?

Dorie Clark:
Thank you, Bobbi, I appreciate it. Well, the best place to find me, and also about 700 free articles on my website, is DorieClark.com. For people who are interested in the concept of playing the long game and becoming a more strategic and long-term thinker, I do have a free resource, which is The Long Game Strategic Thinking Self-assessment. Folks can get it for free at dorieclark.com/thelonggame.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much and continued success.

Dorie Clark:
Thanks, Bobbi, great to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, did any of you think that it took that long to learn how to do a handstand? Would you hire a coach to teach you that? Yeah, me too. Dorie is so great. I actually went to her website after the interview to get some of her extra materials, very much worth making the effort, everyone, highly recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many highlights from the interview, but the big takeaway for me was really that last part about strategic patience. Sometimes things just take time and if you don't have the right mindset, or in some cases, we don't have the resources to go the distance, we need to get honest about where we are spending our time and the best way to be spending our time. I have definitely been hit up by people very aggressively to make an introduction to other people way too early, so that whole thing really resonated with me. I mean, a year, it sounds like a long time, but time goes pretty quickly and you can't force a relationship. There's so much more in Dorie's latest book, The Long Game. She wasn't kidding, I really did read it intensely and I do plan to reference the book a lot. There's a lot of good stuff there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Everyone, please be in touch. Let me know what resonated with you on this interview and let me know what more you want to hear on the podcast. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. Of course, if you want to hear more from me, I would love for you to join my newsletter. Just go to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and sign up there. Big thanks to The Long Game author, Dorie Clark, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley [Wall 00:19:59]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your Grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

2022 is past the halfway mark. Everyone’s Talkin’ Money podcast host Shannah Game keeps us on track to make sure we don’t miss out before December 31 comes along. 

---

Follow Shannah!

• Instagram - @shannahgame

• Twitter - @ShannahGame

• LinkedIn - @shannahcompton

• Website - http://www.shannahcompton.com

• Podcast - Everyone’s Talkin Money

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends, a big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to write because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. And I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you. So first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest, and it was a lot of work. But I really love doing it and I'm really happy with how it came out. On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So I truly appreciate it. And I really also appreciate all of your support.

Shannah Game:
It's a great time to kind of check in. We've got six months left. So things like if you have a flexible spending account, how are you tracking with that? If you have a health savings account, an HSA account, are you really utilizing those benefits as well? And then another thing to focus on as we get closer to open enrollment later this year is really thinking about, are there any health changes that you see coming up next year?

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownups. Time flies, we know, but missing deadlines can cost you. It gets really expensive when it comes to our money. That is why I invited one of my favorite money experts back on the show. She's going to make sure we are all on track for the money moves that we have to be making between now and the end of the year. Shannah Game is a certified financial planner and the host of the podcast, Everyone's Talkin' Money, formerly known as Millennial Money. We're going to talk about that. This podcast, my friends, get this, 20 million downloads. Yep. And it's because she's that good. Shannah's amazing so let's get to her. Here is Shannah Game. Shannah Game, you're a financial grownup. Welcome back to the podcast.

Shannah Game:
Thanks so much. Such a pleasure to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I'm excited to celebrate with you because you have reached an important milestone in your podcasting journey. Your podcast, which we're going to talk about the name of it in a moment, has had more than 20 million downloads. That's incredible.

Shannah Game:
Thank you. It's a little hard to fathom myself that many people listen to me and other people babble on about money, but it's happened. Yeah. It has been incredible. It's grown primarily just organically through people sharing the show. It's a love of mine. I love talking to people. I love podcasting. So I'm just so enthusiastic that it's resonating.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're also really good at it. You definitely do not babble on in your podcast. I think you've helped so many people. The podcast for most of its many, many millions of downloads has been called The Millennial Money Podcast. And you've made a recent change. Tell us about the change and the thinking behind it.

Shannah Game:
Yeah. It was kind of like a itch that I had for many years and I just didn't know what to do about it. I started the podcast under Millennial Money after an article that I wrote went viral and I thought, okay, there's something to Millennial. And me myself, I'm kind of on that cusp between Millennial and Gen X, depending on which age group survey you're looking at. And so I thought, okay, this is really ... Millennial Money is a strong name, it was available when I started the show in 2015 and kind of took off after that. But I launched the show in 2015. Over the years, I've just thought, I want this show to be more relevant, more inclusive, and to open it up to kind of any age demographic and really be the place where people are welcomed in, they have a place that is a safe place to really learn about money and hear about all of these different topics.

Shannah Game:
And so we'd been playing around with this idea for quite some time. And last year we decided, okay, we're going to make the name change this year. It took us 4 months to find a name that wasn't taken. It's a little bit more challenging now in 2022. And so the name we came up with is Everyone's Talkin' Money. And it's just this safe place that you can come to and hear all of these different conversations around money from lots of different perspectives and lots of different topics.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I also think that it makes a lot of sense because your show has always been so inclusive. And as people can tell, just from listening to your voice, you have such a calming way about you, Shannah, that I think makes everyone just feel like everything is going to be okay when it comes to our money. Because so many of us have anxieties, and fears, and concerns about money and often a lack of confidence. And I feel like when I listen to your podcast, whatever the name, I always feel a little bit better. And I feel like things are going to be okay. So I've asked you to give us a little bit of a teaser of some of the information that everyone can get when they're listening to your podcast, which everyone, if anyone here is not already listening, should be listening to Everyone's Talkin' Money. You brought three sort of midyear tips for our listeners when it comes to money. And the first one has to do with really being intentional, which is so you. I mean, it's just so perfect for you to speak about.

Shannah Game:
Yeah, I'm a big fan of intentionality when it comes to money because you and I both know that about 90% of money success is mental. It's what's going on in your brain, your thoughts, your feelings, your money story, all of this plays into the decisions that you make with your money. But most people don't spend time thinking about that. They're only focused on the how around money. So when I talk about spending with intention, I always focus on asking why? I say at least three times before you make a purchase. Why do I want this? Why is it important? And why do I need it now?

Shannah Game:
You can really get easily focused solely on just saving money. But I think without focusing on cutting out your coffees and all of those things that you really love in your life, focus on bringing some intentionality to your spending and just taking some time to pause and check in before you make a purchase. Like, does this make sense for me to buy right now? The answer can be yes. I mean, that's the beauty of finance. It's personal. So it could be, yes, absolutely. I want to buy this thing regardless, or it could be no, wait, I want to actually move that money towards one of my money goals. So it's giving yourself more control over your money versus letting it just kind of take you by the whim.

Bobbi Rebell:
Can you share a real life example from either you or somebody in your friends or family that has had that experience? What would be a real world application of that?

Shannah Game:
Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned that. We just did an episode on revenge spending.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ooh, I love that.

Shannah Game:
Which was fascinating because we all have just come out of this pandemic. And so it's easy for us to feel like we want to do all the things and go all the places and buy all the things. And so we talked about bringing this intentionality and something that I shared, which was actually sort of a revenge spend purchase if you will, is I got a puppy in March. She was a little bit expensive. We bought all the toys and she's already had to go to the vet several times. The intentionality behind that was, this is something that is very important to me. She's actually going to be a service dog for me in the future. We took that money and said, okay, this is what we want to do. So although it may have seemed a little bit of a ridiculous amount of money to spend maybe to somebody else. To us, we took the time, we understood how this was going to impact our other money goals. And we said, yeah, this is what we want to do with our money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. And let me tell you as the parent of Waffles and the grandmother of Wally, who my listeners probably heard about last week from my episode with my stepdaughter, Ashley. She has the most adorable Maltese that she just recently adopted. You will never go wrong with a puppy. That is priceless. All right, let's go to money tip ... I could talk about puppies so we must move on. Number two, you want to talk to us, you have some money tips when it comes to investing, which is so topical right now because the market has just been brutal. Almost anything you may have invested in whether it is something riskier like crypto, or just a diversified portfolio, this has been a tough time recently.

Shannah Game:
Yeah. And there can be a lot of anxiety right now that comes from what's going on. I mean, many young investors, this is kind of the first glimpse they're seeing of a bear market. And I think it's important to always just kind of zoom out. Zoom out from all of the headlines, and all the kind of fear tactics that are going on right now, and really root back into your investing goals. Why are you investing? It's a great time to maybe hire a CFP or some other financial professional to figure out, okay, what am I actually invested in? Do I need to make some changes?

Shannah Game:
And although this may seem a little bit illogical, I also think it's a great time to maybe up your percentage of investing a little bit. Maybe if you've got a raise at work or if you're freelance and maybe you got a couple of extra contracts this year, it might be a good time to just say, okay, stocks are down, but let me put a little bit more money in because I know everything is cyclical and everything is going to eventually turn back. Even if we have a year or two of a bear market, we know from history that nothing lasts forever.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that perspective because the truth is if stocks are down across the board and you're not investing in a specific company that may have a specific problem. In general, if they're down across the board, this can be a great time to get in at basically buying stocks on sale. So it can be something that is also, as you said, very wisely, a good time to talk to an outside professional that can give you a third party perspective. And that can sometimes provide a lot of motivation, even though sometimes it's an expense, it is often worth it to have that outside opinion when it comes to how you're allocating your resources. Okay. The third thing, maybe the most important really, and it has to do with wellness because that is actually so very much tied to money.

Shannah Game:
Yeah. As we're recording this right now, we're in July, kind of midyear, and this is such a great time for healthcare checkups, to make sure you're using your benefits. I think we can go through the year and maybe we have a lot of benefits that are covered in our plan that maybe we haven't used. Maybe you have some eyecare benefits or dental benefits. I know I hate going to the dentist.

Bobbi Rebell:
We all do.

Shannah Game:
I have to be pulled basically, like you're missing out on this benefit, but it's a great time to kind of check in. We've got six months left. So things like if you have a flexible spending account, how are you tracking with that? If you have a health savings account, an HSA account, are you really utilizing those benefits as well? And then another thing to focus on as we get closer to open enrollment later this year is really thinking about, are there any health changes that you see coming up next year? Like, are you planning to get pregnant? Are you planning a surgery? Do you know anything that might be coming up next year to make sure that you choose a health plan, that's really going to provide you the best benefits for the next year?

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's really important because when that window does come up for your re-enrollment and choosing your benefits, it's often a very short window, sometimes just 10 days. So you want to prepare and make those decisions and make sure also that you have it on your calendar, because sometimes it might be an email that goes into spam or a piece of snail mail that you just don't notice that maybe you don't really see, or you don't act on. You want to make sure that you've set reminders in your calendar for when your company's open enrollment is because you do not want to miss that window. It can get very expensive. So those are great tips. Before I let you go, congratulations again, on Everyone's Talkin' Money. We know everyone that's listening to me probably already is listening to you, but if they're not, we know they have to be, so everyone get on board. Where can people find out more about you and follow you on all the social channels and learn more about your next ventures?

Shannah Game:
Absolutely. Yes. Thanks for having me. If you're interested in listening to the podcast, it's Everyone's Talkin'. That's T-A-L-K-I-N, Talkin' Money. You can find that on absolutely any podcast player and we're launching our new website this month. So that will be everyonestalkinmoney.com. We're going to have all sorts of fun freebies over there. And if you want to follow me on social, I'm most active on Instagram, just at Shannah Game.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Thank you so much.

Shannah Game:
Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends, I always feel so much better about money after talking with Shannah. In fact, I think I feel better about life in general. She just has this wonderful way about her. And by the way, her podcast comes out three times a week so there is plenty of information there for all of you grownups. I have one more tip that I want to add to though. When it comes to the annual enrollment, don't assume the benefits are the same as they were last year or the year before. And especially before the pandemic. So many companies have added or adjusted their benefits to support their employees who work from home. So be sure to look closely. There may be some really cool things that you don't even know about. Okay, my friends, what are your midyear money tips? I would love to hear them. So please be in touch on whatever social channel you like.

Bobbi Rebell:
On Instagram, I am @bobbirebell1. On Twitter, Bobby Rebell. And by the way, I am also trying my best over on TikTok, but I could really use your support. That is also just under my name, Bobby Rebell. I post a lot of clips of my appearances on local news, mainly because people seem to like them. They get a good response. I'm not really sure what I'm doing over there. But anyway, please follow me there, and like, and comment. You can also send me tips on how to improve the TikTok channel, of course. And let me know if you are a listener in the comments of one of my TikTok videos so that I can follow you back and I can also support your work. Thank you so much to Everyone's Talkin' Money's Shannah Game for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbyrebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media at, bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we've got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Ashley Kaufman, who bought her NYC apartment at age 24 shares how she did it, plus her best money tips for financial grownups. 

Money Tips

• Be the planner of the friend group

• Always be searching for discounts

• Have a monthly self reflection session on your spending

• Don't make yourself feel bad for spending money, but live within your means, do not spend more than you have

• Always buy pet insurance!

---

Follow Name!

• Instagram - @ashleykaufman and @walnutthemaltese
  

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends, a big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to write because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you.

Bobbi Rebell:
First of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest, and it was a lot of work. But I really love doing it and I'm really happy with how it came out.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. I truly appreciate it and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Ashley Kaufman:
When it came to moving into the apartment, I made a running list of here are all the things that I'm going to need to purchase, from a spatula to a couch. It came down to me creating the Excel spreadsheet with three different retailers and a column for more specialty items and comparing the prices. Maybe the items wouldn't be exactly the same at three different stores, but it would be close enough that I could decide between each of them and compare the prices because every cent counted.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together we got this. Hey grownups, welcome to episode 400 of this podcast. You are in for a very special treat. I have a guest that is making her podcast debut, and you're going to absolutely love her.

Bobbi Rebell:
The big question I am constantly asked about my new book, Launching Financial Grownups is, did your stepdaughter really buy her apartment at age 24? Then, how did she do it? Then, how can we do it? Well, the truth is, she focused and she made some really tough choices. It was not all perfect to say the least. Ashley also truly embraced the financial grownup lifestyle. You're going to hear more about that soon.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ashley wrote the epilogue to the book, Launching Financial Grownups, but until now no one has heard directly from her about all the details. Ashley not only reveals in her interview exactly how she did it and what she might do differently, she also is going to share her top money tips, including some that I am adopting myself. Yeah, you can tell I'm pretty proud of her. Here is my 25-year-old stepdaughter, Ashley Kaufman.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ashley Kaufman, you are a financial grownup and I can't believe I'm saying that after I've known you since you were eight years old. Oh my gosh. Welcome.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you for having me. Can't believe it's taken this long to get on the podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. First of all, let me just say that you're the first of your siblings to come on the podcast, and your father has come on for our Summer Watch Series, and he does want to return. But he never came on to give actual money advice, money tips like you are, so you are special, Ashley.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're going to get to your money tips, which by the way, a lot of people know you because you wrote the epilogue to Launching Financial Grownups. It's been a big hit. Everyone says that is the best part of the book. I get a lot of people asking me something that we talk about in the book, which is the fact that you bought an apartment at age 24. I want to give you a chance to talk about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you do it in short, but also how has it been? Because the book was written really a year ago, more than a year ago at this point and a lot has happened.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. I was able to do it in short, by saving a lot, living at home after college and saving every dollar that I made. Immediately after graduating from college, I picked up a summer job, even though I had a job starting in August where I work now. I picked up that job with the intention of continuing to save and aggressively saving so that I could buy an apartment and move out.

Ashley Kaufman:
Not that I didn't enjoy living at home and eating with Harry every night, but when you're 22 and moving home after college, you really want to move out and live your own life like all of your friends are. So it was definitely hard in that regard just because I saw my friends living their own lives, renting apartments all over the city and furnishing them and making it their own space. I felt a little claustrophobic, just kind of like, I don't have my own space. I'm living at home.

Ashley Kaufman:
But in the end it's been worth it. I absolutely adore where I live now. It took a little bit of adjustment after moving in also to just make it feel like home, and it's taken the majority of the year to get there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Before I get to asking you about how it is living in your own apartment, tell me about the choices that you had to make, because it sounds simple, "Well, I just saved a lot of money by living with my parents." But it's not really that simple. You did have to make some choices and you did miss out on some things or make adjustments to your plans many times.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. I think COVID helped a lot and not being able to go out with friends. I did also miss out on some things my friends were doing, like going to music festivals, which in retrospect seems like it was a massive waste of money anyway, but seeing all my friends there and having a good time, it definitely felt like I was missing out on something.

Ashley Kaufman:
There were also times where my friends would be going out to brunch every week and I just wouldn't go along with them because every dollar ended up counting. I was really tight when I did put the down payment down on my apartment and then had to go buy furniture, so every dollar ended up adding up to allowing me to live where I am now.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing that stuck with a lot of people in the epilogue in Launching Financial Grownups is you said something like, "I love Excel. I'm an Excel kind of girl." How did you use systems to help you save the money, track money, and then help you when you were moving into this apartment and setting up your own home?

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. I do love Excel. I took a course on Excel in college, and since then, just everything has been in Excel. I have my monthly budgeting in there, which I have since college. I have a list of my running expenses that are the same every month, as well as a list of things I would like to do that month. If it doesn't add up to have me saving what I would like to be saving every month, I will make cutbacks and adjust, but Excel really runs my life.

Ashley Kaufman:
I mean, I have tabs for vacations I want to go on, I have tabs for, here's an expense that comes up once a year, like renewing my pass to the zoo, which I really enjoy, but I have to budget for that. It helps me keep track of that. When it came to moving into the apartment, I made a running list of here are all the things that I'm going to need to purchase, from a spatula to a couch. It came down to me creating the Excel spreadsheet with three different retailers and a column for more specialty items and comparing the prices.

Ashley Kaufman:
Maybe the items wouldn't be exactly the same at three different stores, but it would be close enough that I could decide between each of them and compare the prices because every cent counted.

Bobbi Rebell:
Looking back, what advice would you give to other people that have short-term, but big goals? Not necessarily buying an apartment, because not everybody wants to do that. It's not the right choice for everybody. People might want to move around, have other priorities, but if they have a short-term goal, what's the best way to get there?

Ashley Kaufman:
To really take a step back and look at what you're spending and do I really need be doing this? I mentioned earlier that I have a zoo membership. Maybe every year, I don't need to renew that if I don't see myself going, and I have a financial goal that I need to hit, or let's say something like I've been looking into buying a new couch. There's small steps that you can take to get to where you need to go by just taking that step back and reviewing all of those choices.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just being accountable and doing a self-audit of where you are right now and what matters most to you for that season of your life.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. That goes into our money tips that you brought with you that are new money tips, but I think makes so much sense for everybody, not just young people, but it's very relatable, certainly in the young adult phase of life that you're in and you're 25 years old right now. I can't believe it.

Ashley Kaufman:
I know.

Bobbi Rebell:
The first of five money tips that we're going to get into has to do with, I would call it the FOMO thing, like your peer group and what's going on there. What's your money tip there?

Ashley Kaufman:
My money tip for friend groups is to always be the planner in the friend group, by being the planner, you can be cognizant of other people's requirements while also staying within your own budget. If people want to go out at night to say a club or something, you don't have to go to the fanciest nightclub to go have a good time with your friends. Some people might want to in your friend group, but other people might not be able to afford it.

Ashley Kaufman:
You can really make sure that you are courteous towards others while also staying within your own budget and maybe the budgets of your friends, if you're aware of their needs and requirements financially as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that because we tend to think just reflect on ourselves like, "Wow, this is a stretch for me financially." But we also may not realize that it may be a stretch for everybody, but nobody really wants to say anything. It's actually a really considerate thing of your friend group to bring up the cost and to be the planner and control those things. Your second money tip is something your dad has gotten so good at and I'm so proud of him, and it has to do with making a little extra effort when you're buying stuff.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yes. My second tip would be to always search for discounts, which goes back into being a planner. If you want something, wait for it to go on sale, wait to find a discount of some sort. If it's travel, be planning over a year in advance and make sure that you are tracking any sort of discount. Marriott hotels I know specifically you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance or up to 48 hours in some cases so it doesn't hurt to book something while you're searching for something else, or searching for a better deal.

Ashley Kaufman:
There are also corporate discounts to look at at larger companies. Discounts through loyalty programs. I'll occasionally get something in my inbox from Marriott due to my status. You get X, Y, and Z number of extra points for participating in this program we have going on, or memberships like Costco. Costco Travel actually has some great deals to be found.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Your money tip number three has to do, I think, with the ultimate in wellness and self-care.

Ashley Kaufman:
My third money tip is to always have a monthly reflection session. Whether you think that you need it or you don't, you probably do. It's just sitting down with your monthly credit card statements and your bank statements, and just seeing where there could be changes. It doesn't necessarily need to be cutting things, but it could be you have a subscription service like Ipsy or Birchbox, but every time you walk into TJ Maxx or Petco, you're buying makeup or things for your dog.

Ashley Kaufman:
You could be canceling those subscriptions and spending it on items that you really want, rather than what's just showing up in a subscription box.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's really good advice. I'm going to give that some thought, because I have a makeup/skincare subscription box that comes four times a year, that I do love the surprise element of it, but the truth is that they're not necessarily things that I would buy. I'm going to take that one to heart, Ashley. All right. The next one has to do with really the emotional elements. It's an emotional money tip.

Ashley Kaufman:
My next tip would be to don't make yourself feel bad for spending money, but live within your means. Don't spend more than you have, but don't make yourself feel bad for going out for a $5 coffee with your friends. I'm very guilty of this.

Ashley Kaufman:
I will occasionally cancel plans because I feel like it's not within my budget and it makes you feel bad because number one, you're ruining relationships with friends, and number two, you're really are developing an unhealthy relationship with money, where you feel like you have to cut something else in order to make up for something that really isn't hurting you that much.

Ashley Kaufman:
If it's not within your means, go ahead, cancel the coffee date with your friends. But if it's really not going to stop you from paying your bills that month, it might be okay to spend a little extra.

Bobbi Rebell:
I would add that don't forget that at many coffee shops like Starbucks, even though you think the smallest one is a tall, there's actually a short, which is even cheaper. You can get a short, plain coffee and have your coffee plans and not spend as much money as you... You don't have to spend for the 7 or $8 fancy espresso drink.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number five is my favorite of all, because you are a new pet owner, which is something that you did wait to do until you could afford it. We had a lot of financial discussions as a family because you have a dependent, Ashley.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. Yeah. We just brought home my little dog, Walnut. She's a Maltese puppy. She is my entire world, but my tip related to dogs would be to always buy pet insurance, cats, dogs, whatever you can insure, always insure your pets. It should never be a question of whether you can afford care for your animal. I built my $500 deductible into my emergency fund when I went and signed up for pet insurance.

Ashley Kaufman:
I know that if something happens with my dog, it's a $500 deductible that I've covered in my emergency fund and then my insurance will cover 90% of it. I don't have to worry about calling the vet for the smallest of things. My dog had an episode in the middle of the night a few weeks ago where she was shaking. It wasn't super concerning, but I didn't hesitate to call the vet and find out that it was probably normal because I knew that I could cover the cost.

Bobbi Rebell:
I remember when you were thinking about adopting a dog, that you really in advance researched all the costs, including medical costs. I think that was so important because it is a dependent and it is important to understand the full scope of what you could be in store for, because you love your puppy. You're never going to say no and it's important to know what you're in store for. I was so proud of you just in the run-up to getting Walnut.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note, final thoughts and where can people be in touch with you? I know Walnut, the Maltese, is a big star as well so people might want to follow her.

Ashley Kaufman:
You can follow me on Instagram @AshleyKaufman or Walnut @Walnutthemaltese. Walnut is much more interesting on Instagram than I am, I have to say.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you are the brains behind the Walnutthemaltese Instagram account, so you get credit for both accounts. Thank you so much. I'm so proud of you, Ashley.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, Walnut is starting to get inquiries for brand deals. She is so unbelievably cute. Feel free to DM @Walnutthemaltese on Instagram. I loved how candid Ashley was about the importance of having a healthy relationship with money and prioritizing living your life. She's okay missing some music festivals that frankly, she probably just wasn't that into anyway, but she does kick herself for foregoing coffee plans with a friend because she's so committed to staying on budget. It's delicate.

Bobbi Rebell:
I've talked about my own issues letting go and letting myself spend money. The lines are blurry on this, but when it comes down to it, money is the means to do what you want, so do what you want. Apply that thinking and don't let an unhealthy relationship with money keep you from living your life. I would tell everyone to replay this episode, but the truth is, we have it all for you in the show notes. Just go to my website at bobbirebell.com for those. It also will give you a full transcript.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also can sign up for our newsletter there, where we send podcast previews and interesting news articles to you just twice a month. I haven't asked this in a while, but please take a minute and write a review of the podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you enjoy listening to us. That wraps up episode 400. Biggest thanks to all of you for supporting the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please, please help me get the word out. Tell a friend, share on social and just keep listening and being in touch on all the socials. Big thanks to Ashley Kaufman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Inflation is surging and we are all feeling the pinch from the grocery store to the gas pump and more. Jessi Fearon, author of Getting Good with Money shares her best tips to manage and protect money when prices are on the rise. 

Money Tips

• When it comes to groceries, think about the things that you really need and find find foods, such as cabbage, that can be filler foods.

• This food should be considered “the sidekick instead of the hero" at each meal."

• What you can do with produce to help you save money and cut down on waste.

• Why a Costco membership isn’t for every family.

• Find apps that can help you save money or give you rewards that you can use later.
  

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Follow Jessi!

• Listen to Jessi’s First Episode here

• Instagram - @jessifearon

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• YouTube

• Website - https://jessifearon.com/

• Jessi’s book - Getting Good With Money

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownups. Before we start the podcast, I want to talk to you about keeping things in perspective and remembering sometimes we just have to laugh it off. We need that. Life is full of grownup choices and it can be a lot so it's important to keep things in perspective and have a sense of humor. That's why I created Grownup Gear. It is super fun merch to celebrate adulting. T-shirt, sweats, mugs, I even have kitchen aprons for cooking. It lets everyone know that you are a grownup, or at least a grownup in progress, or at least you know someone who's a grownup. We even have the cutest baby gear from onesies to bibs that say things like, "I can't believe you are the grownup." The best gifts for new parents, birthdays, engagements, graduation, pretty much any occasion. Even a great gift for yourself. Check it all out at grownupgear.com.

Jessi Fearon:
I'm a huge fan of, I call them fillers. A lot of the foods I grew up eating had a lot of cabbage in them, and cabbage is a fantastic filler because you can put it in tacos, you can put it in pasta or rice dishes or anything and just add it to any dish that you come up with, and it's just a great way of being able to stretch a meal without having to buy a whole bunch of meat and sink your budget that way. You can do it with carrots or other vegetables so just keep on paying attention to the way that you use protein. Make meat the sidekick instead of the hero.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips For financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this. Hey, grownups. So if you have bought pretty much anything recently you have probably gotten sticker shock because, yes, prices are soaring, and this past week, we got official confirmation. Inflation at the consumer level is up 7% from a year ago. The most since 1982. Not fun. As if we weren't already dealing with supply chain shortages, it's really hard to bargain hunt when the store shelves are half empty and you can't exactly wait for a sale if you need something because, well, first of all, it's probably not going on sale anyway, and if it did, well, there probably wouldn't be what you need. It's a mess. Anyway, I asked my friend, Jessi Fearon, to come on with some tips for us to battle inflation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Her background is in accounting, but she is also a popular personal finance writer and coach and basically a great consumer advocate. She also has a book out called, Getting Good With Money: Pay Off Your Debt and Find a Life of Freedom Without Losing Your Mind. And I love that title because these days, with all those higher prices, I feel like we are all losing our mind. So it's a great title for all this bananas inflation going on. Yeah, we're all losing our minds. Anyway, this is the second time that Jesse's been on. I loved our conversation and I know you will too. Make sure to listen to the end. I have some big personal news I'm going to share on the other side. But first, here is Jesse Fearon. Jessi Fearon, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jessi Fearon:
Hi, thank you for having me again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, welcome back. You were here in one of my favorite episodes and we've rerun it, I think, twice because I love it so much. It's about your husband buying fireworks that he was not supposed to be buying. So we'll leave a link to that in the show notes, as they say. But I wanted to have you back because I have, in my hand, your new book, Getting Good With Money: Pay Off Your Debt and Find a Life of Freedom Without Losing Your Mind. By the time this comes out, it will be available for purchase. So everyone should check it out. Tell us quickly about the book.

Jessi Fearon:
Well, the book details my family's story of becoming financially free. We are a family of five living in Metro Atlanta and we paid off all of our consumer debts as well as our mortgage on a salary of just over $47,000 a year. And so, in Getting Good With Money, I share my family's story as well as I share practical tips to help other families find their own version of financial freedom because personal finance is, in fact, personal and it's going to be different for every single person.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And personal finance is very personal, but there's something happening with so many of us that we're all facing these days that is making our lives very complicated and very frustrating and you've agreed to give us some tips about it. And that is inflation. Inflation, I think the last report was that it was up 7% versus a year ago, which is really a shocking number. We haven't seen that in many decades and it has a lot of people freaking out because we're hearing these news reports and then also we are seeing it with our own eyes. My husband went to the supermarket yesterday and he could not believe the prices. And he actually made some very different choices in terms of the things that he purchased. Even though we're not on the tightest budget these days, he just couldn't bring himself to pay the prices that he was seeing. So it's something that we're all facing. So what are your thoughts, first of all, in general, about what's going on with inflation as a money expert?

Jessi Fearon:
I mean, inflation is totally real, so if you think you're going crazy and going, "Man, why can I no longer feed my family on this grocery budget? Why is it so tough to fill up my car? Why does my budget feel so out of whack or things feel so strapped?" A lot of it has to do with inflation. So you're totally not crazy if you're feeling that way. I definitely just want to reiterate that because my husband can't even fill up his truck all the way anymore because the pumps cuts you off at a $100 now. He drives a huge diesel for his construction company and so it actually cuts him off now out because they don't want the pumps to go past Getting Good With Money: Pay Off Your Debt and Find a Life of Freedom Without Losing Your Mind. It's definitely real and it's affecting all aspects of our life and the grocery store is definitely a huge one.

Jessi Fearon:
I actually just got our groceries today so I saw it there at the grocery store as well. The prices, some have slowly crept up, but others are just quickly increasing. This past weekend, we had my oldest child, he just turned 10, so we had his little birthday party get together with friends, and whenever we do a big birthday party for my kids, I always order Little Caesar's pizzas because they have the $5 pizzas, the basic cheese and pepperoni pizza, but they actually have increased their prices to now $5.55. Inflation is just real and it's everywhere that we look, so if you are feeling that strain on your budget, it's not just you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, so what can we be doing?

Jessi Fearon:
Well, the first thing to do is to get real with what you need, especially at the grocery store. As you were saying, your husband and decided not to buy certain things just because he couldn't bring himself to spend the money for those items. And I think that it's just time to get real with what you actually need and to maybe tailor some of those wants, but also to tailor the way that you eat. So I'm a huge fan of, I call them fillers. Growing up, my great grandparents immigrated from Germany, so a lot of the foods I grew up eating had a lot of cabbage in them, and cabbage is a fantastic filler because you can put it in tacos, you can put it in pasta or rice dishes or anything and just add it to any dish that you come up with, and it's just a great way of being able to stretch a meal without having to buy a whole bunch of meat and cook a bunch of meat and sink your budget that way.

Jessi Fearon:
You could do it with carrot or other vegetables. So just keep on paying attention to the way that you use protein. Make meat the sidekick instead of the hero. That will absolutely impact your budget, especially if you're married to a carnivore like me who wants to have all the meats. But make it the sidekick and not the hero. Let go of all the convenience foods, all the snacks and all of those things. I know it's so hard because my kids, they love the snacks as well, but tailor it down with the fresh fruits and the veggies. Those are great snack options to give your kids. And if you go ahead and you wash them when you come home from the grocery store and you chop them up and make them easy for kids to just grab them and go, it really will help stretch your budget and keep you out of those convenience foods and keep you out of some of those foods that are going to see the higher inflation.

Bobbi Rebell:
With the produce, it's really hard to gauge how long it's going to last versus the amount of time it takes for your family to eat them. That's a place where you have some ideas.

Jessi Fearon:
Yes, so buy frozen as much as possible. I prefer frozen over canned, but canned is definitely an option there as well. But if you buy frozen vegetables in particular, if you buy them frozen, a lot of times you can buy them with the steamables in the bag, which saves you time as well as it saves you money because it's a very quick and easy way of preparing those vegetables and you don't have to worry about them sitting in your fridge and rotting.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, definitely. And there can be a mix. I mean, you can do half and half, but just be careful with how much you have with the fresh fruit that goes bad. And also, you talk about just paying attention to what is going bad. See what your family actually consumes. Because I think sometimes when we buy food, we are aspirational. We think, "Oh, this would be something really good. Our family should be eating this." But then, when the actual meal times come and go, you're not eating the things that you think you should be eating and you're eating different things over and over again. And we don't really always take accurate inventory of what's actually going on.

Jessi Fearon:
Absolutely. Yeah, definitely start paying very close attention to what your family is consuming and what your family is not consuming. If you are constantly throwing out a pack of blueberries every single week because nobody really ate them and they're going bad, well then maybe your family really doesn't like to have blueberries. So maybe that is something that you just buy frozen instead of fresh. Same with any vegetables or any other produce that you notice that is just consistently going bad. If it's consistently going bad, consider either not buying it at all or buying it frozen instead of fresh.

Bobbi Rebell:
The other thing is, when you're in the grocery store these days, or even if you shop online, you see the price, but it's very hard to compare prices when you don't look at the cost per unit. And that's something that I often skip, which I know I shouldn't do, but you just see the big number. You don't always see way you're actually getting. Is that something? I mean, how do we do that? I shouldn't say, how do we do that? But it's a tricky thing the grocery stores are doing to us because we're not really seeing always the price hike.

Jessi Fearon:
Absolutely. I mean, if you get down to the nitty gritty of it and you start looking at, especially with snacks, when that big bag of chips that has the individual chips inside of them, think it's 18 in a pack, I just had to buy it for this party this past weekend, but if you actually paid attention to how much you were paying for each one of those individual chips, it helps you understand what the actual cost of that entire bag really is. And then it helps you make the decision on, would it be cheaper if I just bought the really big bag of chips instead of this bag that has all these other smaller bags in it? And usually the bigger bag of chips is actually going to be cheaper, but not always.

Jessi Fearon:
And it's important to know those kinds of things because, for my family, shopping at Costco, actually, it's not the best option for us because a lot of the stuff that's at Costco we don't consume enough to justify having to pay the membership fee and the price per unit there is too high for some of the items that we do consume where I can actually go to Aldi and buy a whole bunch of them and still save more money.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's such an interesting point because we have these stereotypes in our head that certain stores are going to be the best deal for us, but that's not always true because, again, it circles back to, what are you actually consuming? And we actually let our Costco membership go a couple years ago because, number one, we didn't have storage for a lot of stuff from Costco, but we also weren't going through it. And we also would get sick of things before we would go through it and we were buying things because it was available there that we would not necessarily have bought otherwise. So we didn't find it was the greatest value. I think that's also a good lesson, is to really think about where the best deal for your family is and don't assume it's the same as what this overall belief for everyone around you is. It may be different for you than for the people that you see in your community going. Beyond the grocery store, where else can people save money with inflation affecting prices? What else can people be doing?

Jessi Fearon:
Well, if you do any online shopping, which most people do today, I think more people shop online now than they do going into a store, one of the things that I love to do is I love to use cashback websites. Two of my favorite are Swagbucks and Rakuten. I love using both of those. With Rakuten, you earn actual cashback. With Swagbucks, you earn what's called SBs and you can cash those out for gift cards. But this is a great way of stretching your budget and earning something back on your online purchases in order to help offset some things. And I always love to cash them out for gift cards for little splurge things, taking my kids to Chick-fil-A or, or whatever it may be. And it's just a helpful way of being able to stretch your budget.

Jessi Fearon:
And one that's not just available online is called Fetch Rewards. It's just playing fetch with a dog, and that is one where you just scan in your receipts. It can be your grocery receipts. It can be your home improvement store receipts. It can be your Amazon receipts. You can scan in any receipt and earn points back on that, that you also can cash out for gift cards.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also talk in the book about redefining comfort.

Jessi Fearon:
Yes. Yes, I definitely think that this one has always been really hard for me. It's hard for me even now, because, especially for us Americans, we have so much available to us. Amazon Prime has made two day shipping the norm and so it's always weird whenever we have to wait a little while for something. And so if we really want to make solid changes to our life, we have to look at the current direction that we're going in and then we have to decide, okay, this is not where I want to be going. I need to change my course, but how do I do that? And it usually involves sacrifice. And so you have to be prepared to just get a little bit uncomfortable to say no to things that maybe you really want to say yes to but you know that if you say no to this you'll be able to say yes to the really big thing that you're actually wanting to build for your family.

Bobbi Rebell:
It all comes down to choices. So before we wrap up, tell us a little bit about where people can find out more about you and your new book, Getting Good With Money.

Jessi Fearon:
You can find me online at jessefearon.com and on social media at JesseFearon. And Getting Good With Money is available in all bookstores, including Target.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Jessi Fearon:
Thank you, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. She's so real and relatable, and Jessi really shared a lot of great specific things that we can all be doing now. Look, I don't know about you, but I tend to do them and then I slack off. So it's good to have a reminder of things. Even if we know we should be doing them, we fall off the wagon sometimes. Now, my big news, this is something I've been working on for years. I've mentioned it from time to time here. So it's not a surprise for regular listeners, but it is now very real. And it sounds funny to say this, but I feel like a book is not real until you actually see it and people can buy it on Amazon. And that is what happened in the last week with my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life By Helping Your Almost Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart.

Bobbi Rebell:
This book was inspired by my older kids. I have a story that I share on my website about a night in 2018 when it was a big deadline for Roth IRAs and they just wouldn't listen to me. It just gave me so much frustration. So the kids have been really generous in letting me talk about them in the book and share a lot of behind the scenes of what's going on in our family. It's not always so pretty. In fact, the real aha moment came from times like I just mentioned when they just weren't interested and I just kept failing them. I felt like such a failure as a parent because I knew all this stuff, I knew everything on paper, I knew what they should be doing, but I couldn't get them to do it and I really felt that I couldn't do it myself for them.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also, when kids, I'm calling them kids, but when they're of adult age, there's a lot of stuff you can't do for them because they aren't minors. So you have to help them do it themselves to some degree even if you're encouraging them and there to show them what to do. So, anyway, I figured if I was having so much trouble getting my kids to become financial grownups, I probably was not alone. The book was quite an experience. I tapped into an amazing resource of so many parenting and money experts and a lot of psychology going into this, a lot of therapists that helped me to write this book. So I'm really excited to share it with you. It is definitely part psychology and how to deal with the changing brains of older teens and young adults and what is going to work for them versus a little kid, because it is very different.

Bobbi Rebell:
So the book isn't officially out until March, but if you pre-order it, it helps me out so much. Places like Amazon, they use algorithms to decide which books to suggest to people. So if you guys place pre-orders, that's going to be huge because it'll bump it up. And Amazon, by the way, right now it's pretty expensive, but Amazon will adjust the price if it drops it when the book comes out and it almost always does discount the book pretty heavily. So please don't let that stop you from pre-ordering. Launching Financial Grownups, like I said, is on Amazon now, and if you go to my website and click on the Books tab, you can learn more about the book and more about the backstory as well. And, also, there are buttons that you can just press to order it from somewhere else if you don't want to order it from Amazon. For example, if you want to support independent bookstores, we can help link you up there.

Bobbi Rebell:
This topic is so important to pretty much everyone who cares about the phone financial future of members of their family, parents and kids, grandparents, aunts, uncles, family, friends. If you have a young person in your life that you care about, this is the book for you. So please tell your friends about the book. As well, I need your help getting the word out and I truly appreciate it. Big thanks to this week's guest, Jesse Fearon, author of Getting Good With Money, for helping us all be financial grownups. Money Tips For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grown up.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebellone on Instagram and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips For Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcast. Reading each one means the world to me and, you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our Merch Shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

The holiday season can be a great opportunity to teach young children money lessons including needs vs wants, the importance of saving and investing, and the power of giving. Bobbi talks with The Wisest Investment author Robin Taub, about the best ways to have those talks, and make an impact on your kids. 

Money Tips

• Talk about needs vs wants

• Find Opportunities where children can learn how to be generous

• Learn how to have a conversation about money with kids of any age

• The important lesson that children can learn by walking away empty handed

• Have children use their own money when purchasing things they want
  

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Follow Robin!

• Facebook - @Robin-Taub

• Twitter - @robintaub

• LinkedIn - @robin-taub-cpa-ca

• Website - https://robintaub.com

• Robin’s Book - The Wisest Investment

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love, but the truth is it's also really hard and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile. So my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the Wednesdays with phrases like, "I can't believe you're the grownup either," and new colors and designs of our top selling generosity line. And for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code holiday, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. Thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays, guys.

Robin Taub:
It's really hard as parents not to rescue your kids and you say you've done it, I know I've done it, and you're standing there and they're so disappointed, but it is a really important lesson that they have to understand that money's a finite resource and you have to do some planning and you have to do some research and know what things cost and whether you have enough.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Grown friends and happy holidays, whatever holidays you are celebrating. It is the season for so many good things, but we also want to make sure that we keep our kids from developing bad money habits, because that can happen with all the giving that goes on. Giving and getting presidents is good, don't get me wrong, but we just want to make sure that the young people in our lives don't get a sense of entitlement. Not just because we'll have to live with it, ugh, but also because it's just not going to serve them well as they grow into being grownups. Robin Taub is the author of The Wisest Investment: Teaching Your Kids to be Responsible, Independent, and Money Smart for Life. While she's based in Canada, her lessons are really universal. In my interview with Robin, we talk about using the holidays as an opportunity to teach kids, well, to be their best selves, maximize the fun and giving spirit of the holidays and not get caught up in all the bad stuff. All the me, me, me, get me, get me, buy me, buy me. Right? We've all heard that. Robin is so warm. You can tell she has a great heart and really cares about teaching young people. I think that's why we bonded so much. You're going to love this interview. Here is Robin Taub.

Bobbi Rebell:
Robin Taub, you're a financial grownup, welcome to the podcast.

Robin Taub:
Thanks Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
We are of like minds across international borders. You are Canadian, I am obviously a US citizen, but we are like mines because we both are very interested in teaching children about money. I heard about your book, The Wisest Investment: Teaching Your Kids to Be Responsible, Independent, and Money Smart for Life and I had to have you on the podcast, so welcome.

Robin Taub:
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, so this book, full disclosure, it is a book that is has Canadian references, but I think there's a lot of lessons that are universal and cross the international border between the US and Canada so I think that we're going to have a lot to discuss.

Robin Taub:
Good.

Bobbi Rebell:
Starting with the fact that you specialize in teaching parents how to teach their kids about money and in the book you go through different ages. You really start at the very youngest ages. It is the holiday season. It's a time when little kids may be asking for more and more and more, and this may be a time when things slow down a little bit with the older kids, the kids in elementary, middle school, maybe even high school, they may have more time to be around you. What kind of opening does this create for parents to have those discussions about money and money lessons with their children?

Robin Taub:
I think with holidays and gifts, you can have a talk about needs versus wants because I think this is the time of year where everyone wants the fun things, the things that are not must haves for survival, but the nice to haves. So having a conversation with your kids about what things cost and if they're working, how many hours it would take to work, they would have to work to earn something like the equivalent of what they want. Just talking about things like even buyer's remorse and thinking before you buy something, being more mindful about your spending.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing that parents want to teach their children about obviously is being generous and giving. What kind of opportunities are presented around that during the holiday season?

Robin Taub:
I think you could be going with your kids to a place where they're giving out hot meals to people that are homeless or having trouble this time of year. It could be donating dry goods or new toys to an organization that's collecting for families that are in need this year. I feel like doing a project like that as a family really does help put things into perspective if your kids are developing a sense of entitlement and it just opens their eyes up to the fact that not everyone lives the way that they do. It teaches them to be grateful for what they have, which I think is a really important message all year round but especially around the holidays when they can be a little bit demanding of all the things on their list.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some good ways to even open the conversation about money with kids, especially at the younger ages, if they don't show an interest in it and they don't really ask you? How do you even bring it up?

Robin Taub:
Yeah. As you mentioned, my book does start at the younger end around five, and I say that it usually does start when they go to school like preschool and they can see what other kids have and do and they might start expressing a curiosity around money. If they haven't initiated it and you think that they already based on their maturity, you can start with cash and you can start by showing them bills and coins and how you use those to pay for things, assuming you still do here and there. You would play county games with money. Canadian money's actually a lot more colorful and interesting than American money. That's something that I did when my kids were little, but it's always about sharing age appropriate information. You're going to interest a five year old in things that are outside of their little world. What does an ice cream cost and what does an apple cost? What about this toy that they want? How much does that cost, and showing them how you would actually add that up with cash and pay for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing that is interesting is in the book you talk about if a little boy, I forget if it was a little boy or a little girl, whatever, if a child wants something and they're short, like they have a certain amount of money at the store and they come up short, many parents, and I myself have been guilty of this, pony up the last dime or whatever it is, you say not to do that.

Robin Taub:
Yeah, there is a story in the book about letting your child walk away empty-handed because they didn't have enough, they hadn't saved enough, or maybe it was a simple question if they didn't have enough for the tax, the sales tax. Again, that's another really good teachable moment because it's not just the sticker price, it's all these additional taxes. Yeah, it's really hard as parents not to rescue your kids and you say you've done it, I know I've done it, and you're standing there and they're so disappointed, but it is a really important lesson that they have to understand that money's a finite resource and you have to do some planning and you have to do some research and know what things cost and whether you have enough.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's interesting because that's sort of an evergreen lesson and many of the books lessons are evergreen, but the book is actually 10 years old and you've updated it. Tell me about what changed over the last decade when you went back and looked at it, how has the world changed and therefore, the way that we teach our children about money has changed?

Robin Taub:
Quite a bit, it's changed quite a bit, and in two major ways, I would say. The first is that we live in an increasingly cashless and digital society. With young kids you still want to teach them with cash because it's tangible and concrete and it's not as conceptual but older kids are ready to learn about digital money, but that has been a huge change. We are rarely using cash anymore. We are tapping, we are using our phones, everything's being done from our phone or computer. A lot of people were taught about money using jars and using cash and sort of when you run out, then you know you can't spend anymore. Well, that doesn't really happen anymore. We also don't feel that same pain of loss that you feel when you hand money over to somebody, when you just tap. It just doesn't feel that same visceral feeling.

Robin Taub:
You have to build some of that friction back into the system. As much as technology has made spending so much easier, and it's really changed the game on how we manage money, you can also use it to help you. I think that this move to digital has been huge in how we teach our kids and some of the challenges.

Robin Taub:
The other thing was COVID, was the pandemic. It just felt like it was a wake up call for parents. Well, for everyone really, about being prepared financially and about the importance of making sure the next generation is prepared, whether it's something crazy like a pandemic where things were shut down for a while and some people weren't able to work or be prepared for something good like some kind of a financial windfall. On the downside, a lot of people didn't have emergency money and they were really scrambling until the government stepped in with assistance. Just how important it is to have that safety net built.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you think that the pandemic made or created a situation where parents were more candid with their children about money?

Robin Taub:
I think that especially teenagers and older kids, they are aware of what's going on in the house and I think it is catalyst for some difficult conversations. You want your child to have some context as to what's happening in the household, if you have to say, no, maybe this year celebrations are not going to be what they have been in the past for that reason, but you all also have to take on the responsibility of managing the household. You don't want to overburden your child with too much information or worry them, even teachable moments like taking your kid grocery shopping, that was such a go-to example, and all of a sudden no one was going to grocery stores, everyone was shopping online so just how do you then use those as opportunities to teach your kids?

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you can also sit at the computer with your kid and go shopping online with your kids all the same.

Robin Taub:
Yeah, for sure.

Bobbi Rebell:
The other interesting thing is that you talk about digital tools. We can also see when I ... I no longer give my child actual cash. He has a debit card that actually works through digital, is through his phone on Apple Pay and so I can see everything he buys. How would you recommend, sometimes I don't like what he buys. How would you handle this with a child? How do you discuss what they're buying when they don't necessarily fully understand that you see everything?

Robin Taub:
Yeah. Well, is your child a teenager?

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, this one is. He's 14, yes. But any kid that has a debit card, I think it's a great tool because you used to, you'd give them money and you kind of don't know exactly but here you can see. They were at Dunkin' Donuts at 3:30 PM with their friends after school.

Robin Taub:
Yeah. That's a good example. You're right. With cash it's not traceable, so he might have been doing that. You just didn't know about it. With teenagers, the allowance that you're giving them, assuming you're having a conversation or I recommend parents do have a conversation about it, what are the expectations? Is it just for their wants? Is it for just going to Dunkin Donuts after school? Or is it supposed to cover some other things, maybe cell phone or ... Have that conversation about who's paying for, what are they working? Are they contributing also? Are you just paying for everything in the household? Most parents aren't charging teenage kids living at home rent or anything like that. But just going over what their daily spending or their weekly spending looks like.

Robin Taub:
Then I would sort of try and step back because you don't want to fight every little battle, as you know as a parent. You don't want to be arguing over every wasteful coffee or drink or fast food meal that they buy. If you've kind of got the big picture category sorted out, you're giving them some money for entertainment and some money for transportation and clothes, and I think within that, you want to let them do what they want because they are going to make mistakes and waste money and you kind of want them to, because that's how you learn.

Robin Taub:
Speaking of coffee, my daughter went through a phase in high school where she was going to Starbucks all the time after school. I know when I would take my kids to Starbucks, I wouldn't get anything because it was expensive when for two or three people. When she was going every day herself, she was spending 5, $6 at a pop, so that could be $30 a week.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you ever talk to your daughter when you were going to Starbucks with all of them and buying them treats and not-

Robin Taub:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Not buying yourself. Would you say to them, "I'm buying you, but I'm not buying myself because it's too expensive?"

Robin Taub:
Yes, I would.

Bobbi Rebell:
It didn't work, Robin, they didn't-

Robin Taub:
I know.

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:13:36]

Robin Taub:
It might make me look cheap, but I didn't really care because I was like, "I don't really need this or want this that badly," and it was more like an outing so it was like, "Happy to buy it for you guys, but I don't need this so I'm not going to spend the money on myself." But I think it became for her the social thing. It was like they went en masse after school as a group and you don't want to be the odd kid out and whatever, but it can really add up. My son was the same, but for him it was cans of pop at a convenience store across the street. If you bring up from home, it's way cheaper.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you handle that peer pressure to spend money with kids? Because that's what you're talking about.

Robin Taub:
It is and it's so hard now because it's in person and it's online with social media and social commerce and stuff. Yeah. It's a really hard thing. Again, I think it goes back to needs versus wants. Just emphasizing that with your kids, first we have to take care of the must-haves for survival and then if there's money left over for the nice haves, okay. When they start working, even as teenagers and they have to earn some of their own money to pay for some of the things that they have FOMO over or peer pressure over and they know that they have to work a certain number of hours to be able to afford that thing, it makes it a lot more real for them. When they're spending their own money compared to when they're spending yours, it just hurts more.

Robin Taub:
Even if you've given them that money as an allowance, as you were saying, it's still their money and they have ownership over it and they know if they spend it on this, they won't have it left over for that. It forces them to make these choices. I think that's another way. Doing those family philanthropy projects that we talked about maybe around the holidays, but all times of year schools are always doing fundraisers, just also reinforces the fact that life is not just about consuming and having the latest this and the greatest that, and just having some kind of a gratitude practice, even informally at home like going around the dinner table and everyone sharing one thing that happened that week that they're grateful for, it just changes the context from this whole got to have it, got to have it now, I deserve it to life's about a lot more than just stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
What's your number one money tip for parents?

Robin Taub:
I think for parents it's to try to get their own financial house in orders so that they can be good financial role models and lead by example. Kids are watching and listening and learning and they are aware of both the good and the bad money habits in the home. They're modeling us, we are their role models for so many areas, including with money. I think that's an easy way, in some ways it's hard if you haven't done that, if you're not financially on top of things, but if you are then just by doing what you do normally you're teaching your kids. They have a good example to follow.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Where can people follow up with you and be in touch?

Robin Taub:
I have this book that has now been updated called The Wisest Investment and that is the name of the website where you can find it and links to it as well as some free resources. I actually have an exercise from the book that will help parents figure out if they're a good financial role model and how they could become one. That's all on thewisestinvestment.com and then on social media, I'm Robin Taub which is T-A-U-B.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Robin Taub:
Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
So much great stuff in that interview, especially that last part about the fact that whether we are aware of it or not, the kids are watching how we talk about money and they are probably a lot more aware of what is going on with us financially than we realize, especially to so many of us were home so much more with those kids around in the last year and a half. I love this topic and I am so excited to start sharing more about my next book, Launching Financial Grownups with all of you soon. To learn more about it, please go to my website, bobbirebelle.com, you can learn more just in the dropdown menu, click on books, but also sign up for my newsletter. There's an invitation right there waiting for you when you go to the website and I will keep you posted.

Bobbi Rebell:
In the meantime, I would love to hear your tips on this topic or if you have any more questions or topic suggestions that you want to hear more about on the podcast. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell, and big thanks to The Wisest Investment author, Robin Taub, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find in the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebelle.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media at Bobby rebel, one on Instagram @bobbierebell1 and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share the is podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your Grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Learn from Mindstorms author Kathleen Celmins how to know which ideas are worth monetizing vs. keeping as a hobby, why and how you should record and watch yourself speaking on video, and specific to come up with a business idea that you can monetize.

11 Money Tips to making more money

• Drill down to find your expertise- do this while sleepy- you should be able to smile at every topic when you are done with the list

• It’s the small ideas that make a lot of money

• Not all hobbies and interests are meant to be monetized

• Find your over arching topic, idea and word

• Record yourself on video talking about your ideas- then watch it

• People are willing to pay to solve problems- come up with a list of problems you can solve

• Write a book and step on a stage

• Create digital products

• Every 90 days find a new income stream to build

• How to battle resistance

• Build content on what you own not rent because the rules can change

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Follow Kathleen!

• Instagram - @kathleencelmins

• Facebook - @kathleencelminsdotcom

• Twitter - @kathleencelmins

• LinkedIn - @kathleencelmins

• Website - https://amplifiednow.com and https://mindstormsbook.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list, that includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love. But the truth is it's also really hard and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you're the grownup either." And new colors and designs of our top selling Generosity line. And, for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity collection, then we'll gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code HOLIDAY, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. And thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays, guys.

Kathleen Celmins:
So, what are the problems that you can solve? Not what are the problems you can solve better than anyone else in the world, but what are some of the problems that people come to you with and leave with a resolution?

Bobbi Rebell:
You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebel author of how to be a financial grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome everyone to a episode of the money tips for financial grown ups podcast. I'm your host, Bobbi Rebell. Let's start today with a question, do you ever stop and think what if I could make money not doing my job, but doing something I love? Really, stop running around and focus. Are you thinking that now? I'm not going to tell you to just go for it. In fact, in many cases, you should not go do what you love for money. That is the advice from this week's grownup guest, Amplify Now's Kathleen Celmins.

Bobbi Rebell:
Her new book, MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur has a lot of what to do, but just as importantly has some very big don'ts. And, trust me, I've done the don'ts, it's not good. You got to listen to Kathleen. There were so many incredible nuggets of wisdom in her book we raced through about 11, but we just barely touched the surface. So, don't worry about taking notes. As a reminder, everything is on my website, bobbirebell.com just go to the Podcast tab, show notes, you'll get the full transcript. But meanwhile, listen up. She's really good. Here is Kathleen Celmins.

Bobbi Rebell:
Kathleen Celmins, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm happy to have you. You've given me so much informal advice over the years about how I can monetize various business ventures of mine. I've taken some of your advice, I probably should take all of your advice because I'd be a lot wealthier by now, but I'm excited that you're going to your wisdom with all of our listeners.

Kathleen Celmins:
Well, thank you so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
And to that point, you wrote a book that is going to be very helpful to our listeners called MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur. This book sort of echoes the kinds of things that you do with your in-person clients. So everyone can it at their own pace at home. I have 11 tips that I took away from this book. We're going to try to plow through them as quickly as possible to get them all into the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
The first one... And, by the way, you say that you should do these a little bit sleepy. I want you to explain why, while you answer the first one, which is that you're going to drill down to find your expertise. So, you're going to do this while you're sleepy. Tell us about that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. Especially this first one, because if you do it first thing in the morning, you think, "Well, I don't even know how I brushed my teeth this morning. Like I don't know anything about anything. I'll never figure it out." But if you take your whole day and you do a bunch throughout the day and you get out of your desk, you get out of your office, you go out into the world, and somebody asks you for advice and you come back and you think, "Well, I did give somebody advice today. And I actually last week I give somebody advice too." By the end of the day, when you're tired is when you are the most creative. It's not when you should balance your checkbook, or do anything mathematic, but it's when you can really think about your ideas.

Kathleen Celmins:
And so, when you're drilling down on your expertise, there's a lot of different ways to come about it. It's what do you love doing? I don't start with that, but what do people ask you about? What are you the go-to expert in at work? What do your friends ask you about? What section of the bookstore or the library do you head toward every time without fail? That's different for everybody. What are the ordinary things that you find yourself explaining frequently that come really easy to you, but you see people taking a bunch of notes on? That's a good starting point for people who think, "Man, there's a lot of money out there to be made. I don't know how to get a piece of it." To me, that's a really good place to start.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, like you said, when you're at the end of the day, you sort of have this cumulative knowledge of all the things that you've been saying all day, and maybe some of those ideas will bubble to the top and be top of mind. And, hopefully, you'll smile at all of the topics.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number two, it is the small ideas that make a lot of money. That's kind of counterintuitive because I always think like we're waiting for the big idea. It's the small ideas you say.

Kathleen Celmins:
Maybe small ideas, isn't the right word. But it's the most simple, the thing you could put on a bumper sticker. There's a lot of profound wisdom to be found in the smallest thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number three, not all hobbies and interests are meant to be monetized.

Kathleen Celmins:
That's kind of a note to myself or even all of the entrepreneur friends that I have. My example was a friend of mine asked me to photograph her wedding. And I thought, "Oh, that'd be really fun. I really like her. I love her fiance. I have a fun camera. I need a new light. Okay, whatever. That sounds fun." And I had a great time. We did an engagement session. I did wedding photos and it was really, really fun. And I came home and I thought, "I'm keeping that as a hobby because I don't want to take away the joy of just grabbing my camera and going out and photographing the sunset." If everything can be monetized, and everything, can you have to keep something sacred. And you have to kind of test to see where that line is. It's really hard to do, but it's the sort of thing where you want to keep your beginner's mindset, your amateur's mentality. It helps a lot.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I think that's really important to remember in this age where everyone says, "Follow your passion for your career," but maybe your passion should just be your passion. That's okay too. That's really important to remember that sometimes work can be work depending on it shouldn't be miserable, but it's okay for work to be work.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number four, find your overarching topic, idea, and word. So this is sort of an exercise that people go through.

Kathleen Celmins:
Right so in one of the MINDSTORMS, we talk about expertise and you come up with a whole bunch of lists. And then one of the things you do is you highlight, and circle, and underline or whatever the things that show up on more than one list. Those are the kinds of things that you think about. Like you putting your ideas, you're downloading your brain into folders those are the titles on the outside of your folders.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number five, this is something that I think a lot of your students kind of were hesitant about, but it is record yourself on video talking about your idea, and then watch it. The second part being even harder, I think. I have trouble watching myself and I make a living doing video content basically.

Kathleen Celmins:
Me too, and me too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah.

Kathleen Celmins:
It is hard. You will find though, where you stumble. And the more you practice, and the more you dig into why you're stumbling, the better you can be about articulating your ideas in the future.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what do you say to people that just are so hesitant?

Kathleen Celmins:
Don't publish it anywhere. Don't do it on YouTube Live. Just put it on your phone and watch it yourself. To your same point about not every hobby needs to be monetized, not everything you do on your phone, or on your computer needs to be public.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's such a good reminder.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, the next one is people are willing to pay to solve problems. So, come up with a list of problems you can solve. This, I think, is so important because there's so many products out there and ideas that may sound like a great idea, but if it doesn't solve a problem it's really hard to monetize sometimes.

Kathleen Celmins:
It's also really hard to talk about complicated solutions. And so, the more complex your solution, the more likely you are, as a person, as a business owner, to really talk about the details of the solution. But remembering that people do pay to solve problems period. And that's another way to get at what your expertise is. So, what are the problems that you can solve? Not what are the problems you can solve better than anyone else in the world, but what are some of the problems that people come to you with, and leave with a resolution?

Kathleen Celmins:
The more you can drill down on that, the easier it is to sell. If the problem you're solving is how to look good on your Instagram feed all day, every day. Great. That is a very specific problem you can solve. That's not mine, but...

Bobbi Rebell:
But it does sell. I mean people will absolutely pay to have someone help them with their social media.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number seven, very near and dear to my heart and to yours, write a book and step on a stage.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. And those are hard as I have just recently found out.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Kathleen Celmins:
But it's a really good way to package up a lot of the things that you know. And writing a book is really challenging for the simple reason that you think you have to distill all of the knowledge you've ever gained into one book. And so, one of the things I say in the book is no, write your first of 10 books. Commit to writing 10 books. Then, that first one is nowhere near the mountain it was when you thought you had to write your odyssey, basically, on that. And stepping on a stage is hard also but, depending on who you are, it's nowhere near as hard as writing a book.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I agree with that. And stepping on stage, once you're on stage, it's much easier. It's the moment before you go on that's really the hardest.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number eight, create digital products. This is something I have really struggled with. You've urged me to do a video course and I am pushing back on you. I'm a bad student. All right, create digital products. Tell us more about that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah so, let's take the how to look good on your Instagram feed all day, every day. That's a very specific problem that you can solve. And it's probably not one you can just say, "Be yourself and smile more." One of the things you want to do is really show people exactly the step by step process. And, in order to do that, you give them the steps they need. And so, that can take a lot of different forms.

Kathleen Celmins:
Digital courses are really popular right now. Independent one on one coaching can be something you do. In fact, I say to lead with that because if you're coaching somebody through it, take notes, tell them, "First thing you need to do is make sure you have good lighting." Oh, good. Okay so, step one, lighting. So, then you're building out your digital product as you're getting paid to.

Bobbi Rebell:
So smart.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number nine, every 90 days find a new income stream to build. So, you're doing that. Are you keeping the old ones, or you're sort of dropping the ones that weren't working every 90 days?

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah so, it totally depends.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Kathleen Celmins:
So 90 days, to me, I think of that meme, the diamond mine, one where the person turns around right before they get the big diamond. You want to make sure you give it a full 90 days and, again, a lot of this is notes to myself, or my past self. That got to a point where I was convinced that people didn't need marketing help at one point, because I had not asked more than a handful of people, if they needed marketing help. And if I had not given it that full 90 days, spoiler alert, they do. Everybody needs marketing. But if you don't give it the full effort, if you don't decide to commit to something for an entire quarter, you're going to give up before you hit that diamond.

Kathleen Celmins:
And, to your point, not every one of them is going to hit. Maybe this market isn't interested in that solution. You're not going to know that until you've had conversations for three months. And so, giving yourself permission to change every three months, but also give yourself permission to stay the course for three months. Because every 90 days sounds, when we're talking about it, sounds like no time at all. But, when you're in the middle of it, feels like forever. The consistency will pay off down the line.

Bobbi Rebell:
The next one is build content on what you own not rent because the rules can change.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yes. So, you only own two things, and you don't even really because you're renewing your domain, but the two things you own are your website content and your email list. Everything else is at the mercy of somebody else's algorithm. And the algorithm is set up to make the people stay on that platform. Not to help individual business owners grow their own businesses on their platform. That's true across the board. So that's true with all social media platforms. It's true with course platforms. It's true with email lists that get your content.

Kathleen Celmins:
So if you have a newsletter, keep it on something that you can always access. If you have a course, make sure you know the rules of who owns your content. For a lot of times, the content is owned by, or kept hostage by the course platform. I have a former client who had a course that was selling really well, and then had six chargebacks in three weeks. And the platform locked her out of the content that she created. She could not communicate with. So, there's a lot of things that seem really easy are really... To me it's like building a house on rented land. "Okay, you can have this house. You live in it as long as you want. I'll never charge you rent," until they do right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Kathleen Celmins:
Then you've got something you did not anticipate.

Bobbi Rebell:
The final thing I want to have you talk about is that commercial success is not passive. There are so many people out there talk about digital courses, on all this passive income tell us the deal.

Kathleen Celmins:
Okay, the only passive income are investments where your money is making money on its money. That's it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Like stocks, you're talking about stocks, things like that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. Anything like that, where you put money in the market and you decide to take it out another time. That's it, that's the long and short of passive income. The rest of it takes a lot of work, which is why it's worth thinking about in terms of, yes, there's so much money to be made on the internet where, at the very beginning of it, you can have your piece of it, but it's not something where you can just set up a sales page and then get your Lamborghini tomorrow.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. And even people talk about real estate is passive income. It's not passive because you're either managing it yourself, dealing with tenants, or whatever, the electricity is out, or you're paying a management company. Someone has to be in charge. And so, therefore it's never passive.

Kathleen Celmins:
Right. Really, honestly, the only passive income is when your money is making money on itself in the stock market in general. So, thinking about that in terms of you're going to build this, you're going to build something, you're going to download ideas from your brain you can't just sit back and wait for something to happen. You got to work toward it and it's worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I think your book MINDSTORMS is definitely going to help a lot of people that can't get to you. Personally, reading really feels like you're there with you in a session with your three or four, a tight group going through these exercises. I particularly loved the back half of the book because you're very specific about exactly what to do and the steps to take. It's not one of these sort of just thoughtful books where you're just thinking about things. There's actual steps of specific things that people should be doing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about where we can find the book and where we can learn more about you and all of your stuff going on, all of your products.

Kathleen Celmins:
Sure. Thank you for saying that the book has its own URL. It's mindstormsbook.com and then I am, myself, on all of my social media. So I'm @KathleenCelmins on Instagram and Twitter, I have a lower presence on Facebook. But my business website is amplified, past tense, now.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that name.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thanks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for being here.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. This was wonderful.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, much great advice from Kathleen. I've gotten a lot, as I said, behind the scenes over the years. And I'm really glad that I was able to share some of her experience, and her guidance with all of you. So, definitely check out the book because there's a lot more there.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I related to so much of what we went over, especially the idea of not just speaking on video, I don't have so much trouble speaking on video, but watching myself back, that is really hard for me. It's part of why I'm bad about posting my appearances on TV, and the quotes in the press on my social media. I post a small fraction and I really should be better at that because do get a lot of nice feedback, and support from you guys when I do do that. So, hopefully, I'm sort of manifesting it by staying out loud. Hopefully, some of you will hold me accountable to it and I'll start posting a little bit more of those to share with you guys because they are kind of fun and I do enjoy it when I get the feedback from all of you. So thank you for that.

Bobbi Rebell:
And thank you also for listening and supporting this podcast. If you're any value out of this, please consider giving back by sharing on social media. Tag me, of course. Or write a review, or even just make sure that you're subscribed. It's now called follow on some platforms. So, this podcast, I do it for you guys. I don't make any money on this podcast. I don't take outside advertisers. I just share with you my Grownup Gear, which I hope you do support grownupgear.com. So, helping me grow the show is really all that I ask in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please make sure to check out Kathleen's book, MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur. And, of course, big thanks to Kathleen Celmins for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends, and treating yourself as well. And, most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

The Squid Game is an intense look at the desperate measures people will take to get out of debt. While the story is fiction, the lessons we can take away about class divide, the reckless choices made when in debt, and the way money can reveal someone’s true character, are hitting home with so many of us.  ** spoiler alert**

Money Lessons for Grownups from the Netflix series "The Squid Game”

• You can’t judge people‘s wealth and success based on appearances.

• Money makes us do illogical, and often illegal things.

• Manage the pressure otherwise it will consume you.

• Betrayal comes from the people you trust the most.

• Strength is not always stronger.

• Wealthy people can abuse the vulnerability of people who have financial problems.

---

Follow Neil!

• Instagram - @kaufman.neil

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• Website - http://www.ey.com/

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• Twitter- @bobbirebell

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Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, Ts and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts.

Bobbi Rebell:
They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. You know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup and you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownups, welcome back. We are going to do something very special this week, starting with having back my number one, most favorite ever co-host, Mr. Neil Kaufman, aka, my husband. Welcome back, Neil.

Neil Kaufman:
Back on popular demand and for those of you that sent me fan letters, thank you. I appreciate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, Neil is poised to become a regular co-host on this show. And speaking of regular, a lot of the regular listeners do know that you were featured in our summer watch series where we talked about money related streaming shows and the lessons from them. Well, as of now, we're not going to do a whole series for fall, but there is a show that everyone, including Mr. Neil Kaufman, I should say, everyone is talking about that has some pretty intense money lessons.

Bobbi Rebell:
That show is the Netflix series, the Squid Game. Neil and I have been watching the series. We've already had some pretty intense discussions about it and so of course, I recruited him to come back to the podcast. So Neil, welcome.

Neil Kaufman:
Thank you. We're here to talk about Squid Game, which for those of you that have been I guess living under a rock and don't know about the Squid Game or haven't seen it yet, because it's the most popular show in lots of countries, it's a nine episode series about the lives of 456 people, all who need money.

Neil Kaufman:
They need it for lots of different reasons. They come from all walks of life. Some of drowning in debt, desperate for not being able to pay off their debt. Some people are thugs. Some people are white collar. Some people are just unlucky. But what they all have in common is they need money and they are willing to participate, willingly, they want to participate in this game to try and survive.

Neil Kaufman:
And they've got to play six Korean children's games where if you're the winner you're going to get a large sum of money, $46 billion Won, which is $38 million U.S. dollars. It's a high stakes game.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a lot of money. Okay. So I want to make sure everybody knows that we have watched all of the episodes and we are not going to be able to remember what to say and what not to say so there will be spoilers. So this is your cue, if we've interested you in watching the Squid Game and you haven't watched it yet, pause. Go watch it. It's nine episodes.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for most people they could binge it in a day or two. For me, because I fall asleep during everything, it took a little bit longer but Neil was patient. Go watch the Squid Game and then come back right here. This is where the spoilers are going to start. Starting with the fact that the main character is presented as sympathetic but a lot of eye rolls.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, he's massively in debt. He gambles away money that his mom ... By the way, he's 40 something and living with his mom, speaking of not being a financial grownup, of course. He's asking her for more money to buy his daughter a birthday present. He gambles it.

Bobbi Rebell:
All kinds of things happen but just the characters, it's not like they're all that sympathetic. A lot of them are basically making big money mistakes on their own and trying to find get rich quick schemes to begin with. Right, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
He's a likable guy but he's a schlump. It's just the guy, he does everything wrong. He's divorced. He's a gambler. I mean, he's got all the classic tell-tale signs of just being a not responsible person, both financially and emotionally. I mean, he doesn't even maintain a decent relationship with his daughter. I mean, or his mother.

Neil Kaufman:
Yes, he lives with his mom and we've heard that story all too often but he betrayed his mom. He canceled the insurance, her health insurance, which no shock there, an aging woman, she needed the insurance.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's another big spoiler. It comes up later. The other spoiler is that he wins money gambling. Okay, so now in theory you would think he would use this money that's he's gambled ... he wins on this horse betting, which is another thing that comes up. They're betting on horses. Is it different to bet on horses than humans? Think about that, everyone that's seen the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
But, he wins a huge amount of money and instead of using it to pay off his debt he starts gambling away with it again. He doesn't pay off the debt that owes. He gives a big tip to the person in the window and he wants to go shopping and buy extravagant things for his daughter that he's promising her all this stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Even when he gets her a present he does it through a gambling game, a children's game where he picks a present, which later on ... We don't have to spoil this but let's just say it's not a child appropriate gift that he ends up getting her and it's really just the ultimate symbol that this guy just can do no right and he's his own worst enemy really.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, Neil, we've set up the premise, we've got this guy, fast forward a little bit. He runs into someone who's effectively a salesman who convinces him to go into this game and he meets a van, gets gassed so he doesn't know where he's going. And he ends up in a dorm with 455 other people who are competing in this contest and basically they say that anyone that is not eliminated at the end of six children's games will win a huge prize of money. As you mentioned, the equivalent of $38 million. But there's more to it.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah. So they're playing these games but they don't realize it until they get into the first game, what it's really all about. So the idea is some people win the game, some people lose the game. If you lose, by the rules that are put in place, you are effectively eliminated from the game. And elimination means death.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. And note, for the very first game they don't know that. They just know you're eliminated and they assume, I think understandably, that they would just go home. It becomes clear very quickly and it's a very gory scene that being eliminated is death.

Bobbi Rebell:
So after that, through a little TMI, we won't get into it. The players do choose to go home. They end the game and they play one game and by going home they have forfeited the opportunity to win the money and they go back to their dreary lives. And we talked about the main character but many of the other characters have very unfortunate situations with money.

Bobbi Rebell:
They're all desperate for money, to either save face. There's an immigrant theme here, to get their relatives out of North Korea, into Korea, to feed their families. To pay off gambling debts. All kinds of different reasons why people need the money. As Neil mentioned, white collar crime and so on.

Bobbi Rebell:
They go back to their lives. What's shocking to me is that of the people that go back to their lives and have the opportunity to not die in pursuit of this money, 87% of them choose voluntarily to participate in a life or death game where it's pretty logical that most of the people are not going home with the millions of dollars.

Neil Kaufman:
I think it really shows the desperation. So they went into the game originally knowing or not really knowing that much about it but after they realize that it was a fight to the death and they would actually potentially sacrifice their life and they go back home.

Neil Kaufman:
They willingly reenter it a second time, knowing what the consequences of their actions are. It may cost them everything but they're so desperate they'll still go ahead and play the game. 87% of them come back, which is really ... it just ... it boggles the mind.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is shocking and it also is shocking how the characters evolve through this process because they're in this bubble and they're not in contact with the real world any more. They're just in this world where they're surrounded by their ... in some cases they try to form teams and this and that but who's on your team can be very confusing. And it's confusing to know who to trust. And that's something that also goes to the theme of money, right, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
It's really interesting. I'll tell you, choosing who's on your team, who's not on your team, I mean, I thought there was a part of the show where they were choosing teams for tug-of-war and nobody, nobody wanted to choose either the women or the old man to be on their team.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, but spoiler, we didn't know it was tug-of-war when they were choosing. They did not know what the game was. There was a presumption that strength mattered.

Neil Kaufman:
There was. There was a presumption.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is also a real world perception very often that the strong men were the most desirable teammates. That was the perception, which is often the perception in real life too.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. And shock, maybe not shock, the team with the three women and the one old man, won the tug-of-war game against the men's ... the all men's team. Not so much for any other reason than it was the wisdom of the old man. He had life experience. He had some knowledge that he brought to the table.

Neil Kaufman:
And there was also the women in terms of how they all worked together as one cohesive team. So it was the mind that won over the power of many on the other side. It was a David and Goliath story and I love that but the point is, you've got to think broadly, have a different perspective. It's not always the obvious answer that wins.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing that's also interesting is that there might be a perception that everyone in this dorm, everyone playing this game was poor, maybe because they were born that way or just things beyond their control. But one of the characters that you found most interesting was character 218.

Bobbi Rebell:
He is someone that was the pride and joy of his neighborhood. We see scenes of his mother bragging about how successful he is. The main character knew him as a child and he was the big success of the neighborhood. He was working in finance but in fact, he had lost his investor's money and he still was in the outside world portraying this veneer of huge success. Nobody knew that he had had this huge financial ruin.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's something that really resonated because very often people appear to have so much money and so much success in life but underneath there's nothing and sometimes there's less than nothing. And it's not always clear but there's a lot of reason to believe that this very wealthy appearing guy had maybe committed some crimes and really betrayed his investors. He was a bad guy.

Neil Kaufman:
I hate that guy. I mean, I got to tell you, even the way it wrapped up with him in the end and I'll get to that in a second. But I think it speaks to, I mean this guy had a pedigree education. He had the pedigree job. I think the lesson in that is don't judge people's wealth or success based on appearance only.

Neil Kaufman:
I guess it almost goes to what we're talking about these days around mental health issues. People that you think are okay, maybe they're not okay. Maybe they're not doing great. It's like that Instagram moment. It looks great from the outside in but the inside out is just terrible.

Neil Kaufman:
I think the life lesson here is the person who said that it's better to look good than to feel good, that person is wrong. The person that said clothes makes the man. That guy is also wrong. It's mental health. It's inner beauty. It's health. It's relationships that matter, not what your neighbors think, not what the valet who parks your car thinks or the stranger who sees on the street wearing whatever you're wearing.

Neil Kaufman:
You need to define a level of success by, I guess I want to say pay it forward. By the good words and things that you do and the impact that you make on others. It's those things that matter.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. This show also makes some big picture statements about the growing gap between the uber wealthy and the poorer people in society and the things that the wealthy do. About two-thirds through the show, the series, we learn that this is a game that wealthy people are staging for their own amusement and it's compared by many people to things like Battle Royale and the Hunger Games.

Bobbi Rebell:
You have a lot to say about this. I mean, they come in, it's wealthy people really abusing the lower classes here who have financial problems instead of helping them. It's very cynical.

Neil Kaufman:
It's interesting. So wealthy people can abuse the vulnerable who have financial problems. No shocker there. I guess it's the theme for the decade. People hurting people who are already hurting, instead of lifting those people up in reality as opposed to the appearance of reality.

Neil Kaufman:
In the end what I liked was I think the last lesson of the show was that humanity wins. It's best to be your best. It's the best lesson so far in the show, which is sometimes people in power, people who seem to be doing good are not always doing good.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's also interesting though, it makes a little ... well, a big statement. The main character early in the show is betting on horses. Later in the show the wealthy VIPs are betting on the contestants in this game. Is it saying maybe that are the wealthy and the poor doing the same human behavior? Is it just our human instinct to do this kind of cruel game?

Bobbi Rebell:
Obviously, the horses, I sure hope are alive afterwards, unlike the people but they're setting them up similar because the VIPs are very much gambling on the humans in this game. They are making bets and they're enjoying it and it seems like there's some parallels that the filmmaker or the series maker is trying to make there.

Neil Kaufman:
They're talking about objectification of both men, of women. They're talking about the abuse of power. I mean, it's a real statement that they're making here in terms of who's good, who's bad and sometimes who's good and who's bad is just a matter of perception.

Neil Kaufman:
So to your point, people betting on humans versus people betting on horses, is there a differentiation between them? I don't know but there's so many lessons in this story. I don't even know where ... there's so much. I read so much online about it and what I thought was interesting is how characters changed in the story too.

Neil Kaufman:
Like 67, I forget what her name is. I'm just going to refer to the characters by their numbers. It's easier. But 67, she started off as a hard character. She became a soft character in the end. It gives me pause to think about how people fall into two categories sometimes.

Neil Kaufman:
When people are put to pressure some people are like bits of carbon. You know what I mean by that? You put enough pressure on somebody and some people, like a bit of carbon, you put enough pressure on them and they turn into a diamond. They really shine like 67. She was playing marbles and her opponent gave up her life for her, which I thought was a selfless act.

Neil Kaufman:
It was amazing. She literally sacrificed her and not only was that an amazing act of selflessness but it rubbed off on 67. That's what I'm saying with that whole pay it forward thing. She became a better person for it and she did pay it forward, by the way, because in the middle of the night when she was hurting and there was an opportunity for 456 to kill 218 in his sleep, she paid it forward and she course corrected 456.

Neil Kaufman:
She brought him back on the tracks. She gave him ethics, gave him values again, which I thought was amazing as opposed to the character 218. So my whole other viewpoint is some people are like bits of carbon that you can turn into diamonds and some people fracture and crack under pressure.

Neil Kaufman:
This guy, 218, I was really disappointed in this guy. He manipulated Ali, number 199, played upon his naivete, tricking him into losing his life. He also betrayed all of the players in the beginning when he basically he knew the game, the honeycomb game, and he wouldn't share his knowledge with anybody else. He just looked out for himself only and I get it.

Neil Kaufman:
It's a game to the death but it was to the point where this person fractured so much from the pressure that not only did he betray all of his friends and then betray Ali and then he betrayed everybody at some point in the games. And he even slit 67's neck in the sleep. She was already dying and he killed her. What's the point in that?

Neil Kaufman:
In the end, his self-sacrifice, I got to tell you, it left me hollow inside. Hollow gesture from a dying man and he didn't even do it to give to 456 to win. He did it to give because he wanted the money for his own purpose, which was to share it with his family. So I get it but I'm telling you, it's a whole microscope of life on the two different types of people there, those that are good and those that are evil.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think the lasting image, because we need to wrap up in a minute. The lasting image for me is the final character, which is throughout the show, the series, they have this giant piggy bank hanging above the dorm that every time someone else dies the remaining players see more money coming in to this giant glass piggy bank above them.

Bobbi Rebell:
So it's like they're being driven by this character of this piggy bank that they can never stop thinking about it and how that will solve their problems, make their life better but in the end, as we know, it doesn't. It really doesn't and that's, I guess, the final spoiler, really. That the money doesn't change anything for the winner.

Neil Kaufman:
I got to tell you, there was one theme in there that really resonated with me on a personal level because I have seen this person in every company I've ever worked with. Betrayal doesn't come from people more often than it comes from people that you trust most. Sometimes your friends are really frenemies. I love that word, frenemy because you got to find out who your frenemies are sometimes.

Neil Kaufman:
Fake friends like Deok-su, number 101 and Han Mi, number 212. They were friends. They were friends but when 101 left 212 scorned by not picking her for ... we talked about the tug-of-war, didn't pick her. He didn't realize that 212 would ultimately be the death of him. So he burned bridges with her and she wound up throwing him off the bridge, which is kind of funny. It took him to his death.

Neil Kaufman:
So my lesson out of that was the kindness you show to others will always find a way of coming back to you or maybe karma is going to sting you for being ruthless in the end and that's what happened to 101.

Bobbi Rebell:
So on point, Neil. You're brilliant, what can I say. All right. Final thoughts.

Neil Kaufman:
I'm thinking that there's going to be a second season, the way they left it at the end there. He didn't get on the plane, 456 did not get on the plane to visit his daughter. He let me down again. He turned around and I think it's a hat tip to a potential season two.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think so too. I mean, the rumor is and we're just laying down all these spoilers here but the rumor is that a season two might focus more on the VIPs and the police and the people behind the game and what's going on behind the scenes because they show us a little bit but I definitely want to know more about how this came about and what's going on.

Bobbi Rebell:
And we've got the brother, the police officer and that whole thing. So I would love to hear more about that and I'd love to see more about what ... I'm going to research more about what's been going on in terms of class divide in South Korea. I think that's really interesting and something we can talk about in our own country as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
So final, final words, Neil.

Neil Kaufman:
Tune into the podcast. Listen on Spotify. Tell us what you liked, what you didn't like. I'd love to hear from you.

Bobbi Rebell:
We love that. All right. And everyone, you can follow me and support the show on Instagram @bobbirebell1, on Twitter @bobbirebell. Let us know what you thought about it. Let us know if you want to hear more from Neil and more of our money related content reviews. I don't know what we want to call it, a synopsis, whatever. But be in touch and thank you for being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips For Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcast. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

Neil Kaufman:
(Singing)

Avoiding burnout is one thing- but what happens when it is happening and you need to find an escape? Career and Life Strategist Elizabeth Koraca shares 3 tips to managing burnout when it is actually happening.

3 Money Tips To Manage Burnout

• If you’re feeling overwhelmed, stop and ask yourself what is causing it. Write down what are your biggest pain points.

• Look at what’s on your plate. Is it overflowing? Chances are if you're feeling overwhelmed you've got too much on your plate.

• Listen to your body, mind, and emotions. Setting goals, taking action, and scheduling them in a calendar will help you combat overwhelm.

---

Follow Elizabeth!

• Instagram - @elizabethkoraca

• Facebook - @ElizabethKoraca

• Twitter - @elizabethkoraca

• LinkedIn - @elizabethkoraca

• YouTube

• Website - https://www.elizabethkoraca.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Elizabeth Koraca:
So if you're feeling that burnout from social media, like you're on it too much, or you feel like you've had to post too much, just take a step back and think, what is comfortable for me? Is it posting something once a week? Is it going on once a day? Is it just looking at professional posts or focusing on personal? Whatever it is, feels right, create a plan and write it down for yourself.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of "How to Be a Financial Grownup". And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grown up friends. I hope everyone is having a great fall and getting into some kind of a good routine because that is one of the many ways to avoid what we're going to talk about today, which is burnout. And there's a lot talk, by the way, about how to avoid burnout and so many great tips that are already out there. But here's the thing. What do you do if you were already in the burnout phase and you don't know how to even get out of it? This has been happening to me. So as some of you know, this summer, I sort of blocked everything out to finish up my next book, which will be out next spring. All good. People were very understanding. I told everyone get in touch. Early fall, I'm going to have tons of time. In fact, I don't even know what I'm going to do with myself. I'm going to have so much time and I can't wait to hang out with you and to do these work related things, and it's going to be great.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you can guess what happened. The minute I handed in that book, everything came crashing down. And of course, these are good problems to have because I want to see my friends and I want to take advantage of these great work opportunities, except it all came at me at once and I really wasn't ready. It just was kind of like going from zero to 60 overnight. And I had total overwhelm and very quickly I found myself burned out, especially because, as many of you probably have experienced during this pandemic, we just aren't doing as much. So when you suddenly are in a position where you're being invited to different social events that you want to go to and different work things and just plans to see friends and do different things, it's just so much and I don't know how we did it before.

Bobbi Rebell:
All this to say, I reached out to my friend, career and life coach, Elizabeth Koraca. She had some amazing ideas for me, and this is stuff, honestly, I usually roll my eyes at. But she actually had specific things that we can do. And by the way, I should mention part of the reason that we were we're talking is because she has a new podcast called The Speaking Up podcast, which we will talk about in our interview. Elizabeth, as some of you know, and I used to work together at Reuters, we were both TV anchors. And since leaving, she has become a leader in her field in life and career coaching. You should definitely check out the Speaking Up podcast. But first, I want you to listen to my interview with Elizabeth Koraca. Here she is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Elizabeth Koraca, you are a financial grownup. Welcome back to the podcast.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Oh, I'm so thrilled to be here, Bobbi. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Always great to have you on. You are definitely a friend of the podcast. And speaking of podcast, congratulations on your new podcast, The Speaking Up podcast.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Oh, thank you so much. It's something I've wanted to do for so many years and really help empower people to speak up for themselves and ask for what they want. So I'm just excited that it's doing really well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you are rolling out the episodes. I know it's already a top ranked one, so everyone should definitely check out The Speaking Up podcast. We're going to talk about that more in a few minutes. But first, first of all, well, I have to convince we're very good friends. I asked you to come back on the podcast because of something that came up in our own private conversations that I really thought would be something of value for the grown up community, and that is my burnout. There's so many people out there with advice on how to of wait burnout, and that is wonderful and great. However, when you are in burnout, there's a lot less advice, but you have some great strategies. And so thank you for bringing them to us.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Can't wait. I can't wait to get to it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and this has been something that's been a big topic for your clients, especially that you've been talking about a lot with your clients in the pandemic. Why do you think, before we get to your tips, why has this been so much worse in the pandemic? When in some ways, I feel like we're doing less. So I feel guilty about feeling burned out when there's actually less to do. And yet, I'm stressed out and burned out, my friend.

Elizabeth Koraca:
How you're feeling is completely normal and natural, and I think everyone needs to know that because during the pandemic, we had a lot of extra pressures and we're still in it. We are still in it. It's not over. We're just trying to live as normal as possible. So we've all had stress of getting COVID, loss of loved ones, quarantining, job loss, new jobs, all of a sudden maybe taking care of family, extended family members, children that's at home. You're homeschooling all of a sudden. All kinds of things we never thought we would have to do, we are adding to our plate that might have already been full.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And yes, many of us parents now have kids going back to school, but we're feeling burned out from the last year and a half as stressed out about what happens if they get sent right back home. So much to talk about. Let's get to the tips that you sent over to me that we're going to go over. First of all, if you're feeling overwhelmed, what should we be doing?

Elizabeth Koraca:
Well, you want to stop, look and listen. Okay? If you're feeling that sense of overwhelm, you want to sit with it? Where is it? Is it in your chest? Is it in your gut? What makes you feel overwhelmed? Okay. And then stop yourself and ask, what is causing it? Write down what your biggest pain points are. Is it financial? Is it the kids? Is it external pressures? Are you not getting along with your spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend? You want to really think about all of this and you have to pinpoint what is causing the overwhelm.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And we talked about a lack of control. Sometimes things are happening to us that we never thought about we could not have been prepared about, and yet we have to manage that, and that kind of burns us out.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Exactly. Often, what stresses us, and that's what causes the burnout is the stress, we are focusing on things we cannot control. Okay? We cannot control when the pandemic is going to be over, but we can control other things. So you want to focus on what you can control. The feeling of being in control and in charge will help you to avoid burnout. And when you're in burnout, it will help you get out of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tip number two, look at what is on your plate.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Yes. Is it overflowing? Chances are, if you're overwhelmed, you've got too much on your plate. So what can you do? Who can you delegate to? What can you delete from your calendar? Or at least push it to a later date. Okay? All the time. And this happened to me the other day. I just felt like my calendar was just so packed and I had so much going on and I feel like we're even doing more as we're trying to go back to normal after what we've just experienced in the past year and a half. So think about all these things and then take action. What can I take off my plate?

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's hard because we're so conflicted because I have, for example, friends that I am dying to see, I haven't seen it so long, and at the same time, I'm hesitant because I just don't want that calendar to get so crowded because I'm afraid of even exaggerating the burnout that I'm already feeling. And we've gotten used to having more time to ourselves.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Exactly. And I feel like what you're really saying is, what are my priorities? Yes, I want to see people and I want to see friends I haven't seen in a long time, but maybe thinking about spacing that out and what feels comfortable for you. So many other people are saying, "I'm not used to doing so much." As we start to try to go back to normal, people are used to being at home and spending a lot of time at home. So thinking about slowly going back into it and not jamming the calendar is really going to help you with that feeling of overwhelm, just to dissipate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tip number three, listen to your body, mind and emotions.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Yes, yes and yes. And I touched upon that earlier in our conversations. If you don't know you're in overwhelm or you're feeling burnt out, listen to your body. When you're speaking to a certain person, does that give you anxiety? Does that cause overwhelm. When you're doing a certain project or task, does that feel overwhelming? When just the thought of doing something feels overwhelming, you want to stop and ask yourself, "How can I help myself in this moment? Is it setting a goal around this? Is it taking action? Is it asking for help?" It's so important to ask for help when we're feeling like this and to ask for help so we can avoid feeling like this, because it's really important to remember people are not mind readers. They don't know what you're feeling. Even you've got people that have been together for 20 years, they don't always know what you're thinking and feeling. So you have to tell people what you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's such a good reminder because sometimes we get frustrated because we think people should be able to read our minds, and we have to actually be told by someone like you, "No, they can't read your minds." Believe it or not, no matter how long they've known you, even if they're related to you, they're not mind readers. The other thing we've talked about burnout from, and I experienced this is, I really had a social media burnout. I really enjoy social media. I love posing questions to the grownup community and having people interact and hearing from people.

Bobbi Rebell:
But this summer when I was in the middle of writing, finishing up writing, I should say, my book, which we'll talk about later, it's coming out in the spring, but I was in the middle of this and I just decided to go cold turkey and I really went off Instagram for more than a month. I miss that interaction. But right now, I also just feel a lot of burnout. What's your advice for people that feel like they have social media burnout? Is it to just cut it cold turkey like I did for a while? Or is there a way to sort of balance things?

Elizabeth Koraca:
It's okay to take a break. If you don't want to be on social every day and posting every day, you don't have to. Go at your own pace. So if you're feeling that burnout from social media, like you're on it too much or you feel like you've had to post too much, just take a step back and think what is comfortable for me? Is it posting something once a week? Is it going on once a day? Is it just looking at professional posts or focusing on personal? Whatever it is feels right, create a plan and write it down for yourself because when we don't write it down, it can cause tornado brain. When that stress and everything else is swirling around in your mind, it feels like a tornado. Okay? That's what often overwhelm feels like.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's a new expression for me, tornado brain. Wow.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Yes, and many of us feel tornado brain.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tornado brain. Okay.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm going to use that. I'm going to tell people I have tornado brain. It needs to stop. Anyway, that's all great advice. People can get more great advice. I'm so impressed. You just started a new podcast, but you actually pumped out quite a few episodes. It's now going to go to only twice a week, but there's a bunch of them already out there. It's called The Speaking Up podcast. And it's really, at this point, it's all you. Although, I'm hoping you'll start doing interviews so I can get in there too. Tell us more about The Speaking Up podcast.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Yes. It's a lot of my experience grow up, being very fearful of speaking up for myself, and being afraid of public speaking and fearful, and just being afraid to ask for what I want. And then as you know, of course, as a Reuters television anchor, that all changed when I started my career in television news and I was on air. All of a sudden, I'm thrust into the spotlight and you have to speak up. You have to speak your mind. You need a strategy. You need a career strategy. You need to have a plan. So I share all of these tips and tricks and my top advice in my podcast. And I, of course, Bobbi, I would love to have you on when I start to have guests because right now, it's a solo podcast. But pretty soon, I'll be having people on.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am there anytime you want. Where can people be in touch with you in addition to checking out The Speaking Up podcast wherever they listen to podcasts?

Elizabeth Koraca:
Yes. Wherever they listen to podcasts and on social media. When you have a unique name like Elizabeth Koraca, you often get your own handle. So my handle is @ElizabethKoraca, and that's K-O-R-A-C-A. And my website, of course, it's full of information and advice on me and my career coaching services. So that's ElizabethKoraca.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love it. Thank you so much for joining me and indulging me because I really needed this advice. And like I said, I really hope that our grownup community benefited as well because I know so many people out there are feeling the burnout. Avoiding it is one thing, but sometimes we can't avoid it and we need to just deal with it and manage it, and these are amazing tips. So thank you so much.

Elizabeth Koraca:
So thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me on, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I always feel so much better after talking with Elizabeth. Here are some my big takeaways. First of all, make the effort to actually write down your biggest pain points. I'm usually lazy about this, but I find that when I did it after Elizabeth told me to, it seemed much more manageable just to see the words on the page. Also, be realistic. Is your plate overflowing? Maybe you just have to say no and do less. And you can say, "No," even if you don't have a conflict. You don't have to give an explanation. Sometimes it's better to just say, "I can't do it," and maybe schedule it further out like Elizabeth said. And then finally, listen to your body, your mind and your emotions and get control. Set goals and then this is key for me at least, actually put them in your calendar. And that goes along with the whole idea of writing things down because they just seem less scary and less overwhelming when you write them down rather than just having them all in your head.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the term tornado brain that she used. I hadn't really thought of that, but that's something that I think I have a lot. I hope this helped you. And if you know friends that you think might be feeling this way, please share this episode. I would really love to grow the podcast, which is free to you, but it does cost me to produce. I have a wonderful team and they do get paid. Another way to support the podcast is to write reviews on our Apple podcast or any platform you listen to that has reviews. Please do rate and review. And sometimes, this is so easy, the best way to get the word out is to share a screenshot on social media. It's totally free. It takes just a second, and just tag me if it's on Instagram @BobbiRebell1. Twitter, just @BobbiRebell.

Bobbi Rebell:
And if you do so, that's great because I can then thank you. And it's also, it's just really nice for me to see that you guys are out there and you're listening. It means so much when you send me DMs on Instagram or just notes in whatever format you choose. It just means a lot. It means a lot. I also appreciate my dear friend, career and life coach, and the host of the Speaking Up podcast, Elizabeth Koraca. And she did a great job helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money tips for financial grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and per reduction by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @BobbiRebell1 on in Instagram and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Dorie Clark shares game-changing tips to upgrade our work and personal lives including a new alternative to the passion vs. money career debate, jet-lag productivity, heartbeat income and working more hours- in less time. 

5 Money Tips To Play And Profit At The Long Game

• Rethink Multitasking

• Use Jet lag for productivity

• Do something interesting

• Ask- but wait a year first

• Patience leads to the pay off- but don’t be passive
  
  

Follow Dorie!

• Instagram - @dorieclark

• Facebook - @dorieclarkauthor

• Twitter - @dorieclark

• LinkedIn - @doriec

• YouTube - @DorieClark

• Website - dorieclark.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates, if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Dorie Clark:
Lower the stakes a little bit, because honestly, thinking about what is my passion is the dating equivalent of meeting somebody on OkCupid And then the next day your friends just keep saying, "Well, is he your soulmate? Is he the one?" It's like, "Oh my God, I don't know. Give me some time."

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, Grownup friends. You guys are in for a treat. This week's interview is someone I have been trying to get on the podcast for quite some time. It is Dorie Clark. She is the author of the new book, The Long Game, it's her fourth book actually. If you're not familiar with her, and frankly, even if you are familiar with her, you're going to be so happy to listen to this episode. You're going to get so much out of this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Dorie is a big time public speaker, thought leader, and as I mentioned, an author and so much more. We totally hit it off. She covered some great topics for us, including what we can do if we haven't found our big passion. We all talk about follow your passion, but some of us, it's not so obvious what that passion is, but Dorie has a great solution.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also talked about super easy ways to up our productivity. Yes, you can have more than 24 hours in a day apparently. I'll tell you, some of these things were obvious once Dorie pointed them out, but they really weren't obvious to me beforehand. They're easy things that we can do once we know how to do them from Dorie. You'll see, we were doing it all wrong.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, we're going to talk about what we can learn from the amount of time it takes to learn to do a handstand. It was a great story and it made so much sense. If we're being honest, I, by the way, can not do a handstand and I'm not going to put in the time to do this handstand thing, guys, but the lesson that Dorie is going to give us totally works. This is all going to make sense. I know this was a little bit confusing, but just trust me. Listen to the interview. Here is The Long Game author, Dorie Clark.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Dorie Clark. You're a financial grownup.

Dorie Clark:
Bobbi, thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I'm so glad to finally have you on. I've been a fan of yours since our mutual friend, Danielle Towne, introduced us a few years ago, and at that time started reading your books, Reinventing You, Entrepreneurial You, and you have some other ones in the mix, but most recently, The Long Game: How to Be a Long-Term Thinker in a Short-Term World. You can see all of the tattered pages. Congratulations.

Dorie Clark:
Thank you. It is amazing. It looks like a dog attacked it. I'm glad you were that voracious with it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I read it by the pool, so there was a little bit of suntan lotion and water and all that stuff, but it was truly loved, mainly because I know you as the super successful Dorie Clark, you're such a celebrated thought leader, but you're very vulnerable in this book.

Dorie Clark:
Thank you. Well, one of the things that has been challenging for me over the course of writing books, and this is my fourth one, and it's not necessarily a philosophical or emotional challenge, but it's actually just overcoming training. But I started my career as a journalist, specifically a political journalist, and the thing that you learn above all else is you are not the story. You are not the interesting part of the story, you write about other people. That was the frame that I was coming from. Over the course of writing my four books, I've come to learn that actually, in terms of what connects with readers, what seems to really make an impact, that's exactly wrong. I mean, what we look for in the news I think is very different than what we look for in business or career books.

Dorie Clark:
Over time, the part that people seem to respond to the most strongly was actually hearing some of my own experiences, and so over the years, I've really learned to weave more about what I've done and what I've tried and what I've gone through into the books as a compliment to the narrative and the reporting that I did. I'm really glad that you responded to that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I really did. The book is very relatable and I think a lot of people in our Grownup audience will feel the same way. You have a lot of incredible money and, frankly, life tips in the book. I want to dive right into those. I have five that I've highlighted. The first one is you talk about rethinking multitasking, because multitasking has gotten a lot of pushback in recent years, but you have a different perspective.

Dorie Clark:
Absolutely. It is completely true that perhaps what we think of when it comes to multitasking is bad. That would be the equivalent of like, "Oh, I'm actually pretending do a podcast interview with you, Bobbi, but I'm actually checking my email," and that is not true, by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
You could pull it off.

Dorie Clark:
Well, the truth is, if you're trying to use the same parts of your brain, something is going to slip and it's just going to be suboptimal all around. But something that I realized, through some very meticulous time-tracking studies that I did over the course of several years, is that actually there are very complimentary activities that you can do. I mean, some examples might be working out and listening to a professional development book, or taking a walk and calling your mom, or whatever the case is, but it's two activities that you can do both of them equally well at the same time. It could be a cooking dinner with a friend, So you're doing a chore, but you're also visiting with someone that you want to spend time with. During my time tracking, I actually would double count those activities if I could legitimately do both of them equally well, and I came to realize that I'm actually able to build in about 28% more time into my week by doing that. I've become a huge fan of strategic multitasking.

Bobbi Rebell:
What I love about that is it's the anti-workaholic mentality, because it's giving you more downtime.

Dorie Clark:
Absolutely. It's really just being a little bit more thoughtful. I mean, sometimes we fritter away these moments. I mean, I remember back early in my career when I didn't live in New York and I had a car and I'd drive to work, sometimes I just wouldn't think about it and I'd put on top 40 radio and most of it was just listening to advertisements. I mean, that is legitimately wasted time. Whereas, with a little bit more thought, you're listening to some kind of an educational podcast, like this one, or you're listening to an audio book and you're actually using that as professional development time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number two, use jet lag for productivity.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. Speaking of things that we normally treat as wasted time, jet lag is often a top of the list. I mean, we all know, when we're jet lagged, you're not going to get anything "meaningful" done in terms of the way that we normally think of meaningful work. I mean, you can't do anything detail-oriented, you're propping your eyelids open, you're not much use, but what I came to realize is that, actually, we can begin to think about that time differently.

Dorie Clark:
Now, I would never say, "Oh, let's do your QuickBooks when you're jet lagged," that would be a bad move, but what I actually did one time, sort of inadvertently, was I was jet lagged on a trip to Russia and I ended up being able to do basically an entire year's worth of strategic planning while I was keeping myself awake at a cafe, partly because when you are jet lagged in that way, when you're half sleep deprived, your brain is able to make creative associations that are not necessarily logical and linear. I was able to be a lot more big picture about my thoughts and it enabled me to do better strategic planning than if I actually had been well slept and in a more logical frame of mind. I think it's really about matching your energy and your state of being to the tasks that are most appropriate at that time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number three, this one, I love this because it's a strategy that solves the issue of should you follow your passion or should you follow what's going to make a lot of money. You say focus on doing something interesting.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. What I've seen, and I'm sure you probably have too, Bobbi, is that there is so much pressure in our culture to find your passion. What's your passion? You don't know what your passion is? People can feel kind of inadequate and browbeaten at a certain point if you're not following your passion. I know a lot of people, smart, talented, hardworking people, that maybe they've reached a point where they have been working so hard and so long, they might not even necessarily be sure what their passions are anymore. With the work and the kids, they have kind of turned that part off because it's not even something you can really dwell on.

Dorie Clark:
What I wanted to do in my book, The Long Game, was to lower the stakes a little bit, because honestly, thinking about what is my passion is the dating equivalent of meeting somebody on OkCupid And then the next day your friends just keep saying, "Well, is he your soulmate? I mean, is he the one?" It's like, "Oh my God, I don't know. Give me some time." Instead of looking for the passion, instead of looking for the soulmate, what I suggest is just do what's interesting, just explore something that seems interesting. It's a low bar, but almost all of us are at least able to tell, okay, this seems interesting to me or not. Then if it stays interesting, keep moving in that direction, and if it doesn't, it's your signal to pivot. I think that that is sometimes a more sane and sustainable way to begin to move in the direction of things that you care about more.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, that can evolve. We're not going to go too deeply into it because I want people to read it more fully in the book, but one thing you weave throughout the book that I loved hearing about is your passion for theater, which was not something you did as a kid. You weren't a theater kid on stage every day, but you started to develop it and now it's evolving into perhaps a business. I can't wait to see the rest of the story evolve, but it can be something that sort of weaves through your life through different things, even taking a comedy course, different things that you did.

Bobbi Rebell:
But in the interest of moving on, we're going to go to number four because otherwise we'll just go on a million tangents with you. Number four, ask, but wait a year first. Because we do push people to go, go after that mentor, get a champion, get someone who's going to be a sponsor at work, but it's a little delicate. You say a year, that seems so long.

Dorie Clark:
It's true, it's true. I like to be a little extreme in this because I think that we have a cultural problem, because certainly in the United States, but in many other countries as well, where we have internalized way too much, the mentality of, well, it doesn't hurt to ask. I would like to say, actually yes, sometimes it does hurt to ask, because if you are making an inappropriate request too early in a relationship, you will destroy that relationship. Now, where people go sometimes is they say, "Oh, well I don't want to be a wallflower. I don't want to be stupid about things." Well, the point is, it's not that you never ask, it's that you have to let a relationship evolve to the point where the ask is appropriate and contextual.

Dorie Clark:
I mean, I am sure this is probably the case for you, Bobbi, with your business and the media profile that you've cultivated. I certainly experience this as well, where I will meet somebody, maybe at an event, maybe we connect on LinkedIn or something like that, and then five minutes later they're saying, "Oh, hey, I see you're connected to so-and-so," insert super prominent person, "Can you connect us?" It's like, "Wait, I don't even know anything about you." Also, people don't really get this context, but a million people are asking the same thing. I don't want to blow up my relationship with somebody by sending them five random people a day. It's important to be thoughtful and to be judicious.

Dorie Clark:
It's not like ask them anything. If it's like, "Oh, Bobbi, I really like that sweater. Where did you get it?" Fine, ask them that, but I'm talking about wait a year before you ask somebody for something that involves political capital. When you do that, you're able to establish a genuine relationship so that they understand that you are not in it for the wrong reasons and you're not in it to use them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and using is very different from mutually beneficial friendships. There's nothing wrong with that.

Bobbi Rebell:
The fifth one, my fifth tip I want you to talk about, is patience leads to a payoff, but it's not just patience, you have to not be passive. That's a lot of P words, but yes, patience leads to the payoff, but don't be passive.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. In The Long Game, I have a concept that I write about called strategic patients. This is something that is dear to my heart, because frankly, from the time that I've been a little kid, patience has never been my strong suit. I have not been very good at it, but it is something that I have had to learn over time. I think the part that used to bother me about patience was that it did seem so passive. I mean, the way that it gets talked about oftentimes, and at least how my mom would talk about it, it was like, "Oh, we're just going to sit back, good things will happen. Just be patient, things work out." I can't help it, I'm a little more type A than that. I like to make things happen, not just have them happen.

Dorie Clark:
We understand, of course, we can't make everything happen, but it's important for us to have agency and for us to have autonomy in our lives and to control what we can control. Therefore, I have created essentially a hybrid model of strategic patience, because the truth is, yeah, it takes time, they don't happen as fast as you want, but you don't want to be a sucker about it. So that means actually developing hypotheses about, well, how long should this take and what are the signs that it's working or not working, how can I monitor them and adjust accordingly?

Dorie Clark:
The truth is, there's a lot of power. If something is going to take five years and you know it's going to take five years and you're monitoring for your progress, you're actually able to weather that a lot better. I mean, would it be better if it was fast? Yes, but you're able to weather that in a way that mostly you couldn't if you thought it was going to take six months and then it's not happening, it's not happening. That's when people give up, and they give up prematurely and it means that they are not able to accomplish their dreams.

Bobbi Rebell:
You give such wonderful and tangible examples of that in the book. My favorite is the headstand example.

Dorie Clark:
Yeah, thank you. This is one of my favorites as well. It actually comes from Jeff Bezos from one of his shareholder letters to Amazon stockholders. He tells the story about how a friend of his hired a handstand coach for yoga, which is pretty funny of a concept, but it turns out it is actually a legit hard to do a handstand. What the handstand coach told Bezos' friend is that the average person guesstimates that it'll take about two weeks of practice in order to be able to do a handstand. That is not the case. It turns out it takes about six months of daily practice to be able to do a yoga handstand.

Dorie Clark:
The lesson I think for all of us is that unless we are thoughtful and deliberate, it is easy to wildly over or underestimate what is going to be necessary for something. We really have to be aware of that. We have to check our assumptions and be thoughtful, because if you think something's going to take two weeks and it ends up taking six months, which is a factor of 12 difference, you're going to give up, you are going to get discouraged. That's true whether your goal is writing a book, whether it's being featured in a high-profile publication, whether it's building a new career. Developing that strategic patience is a really important prerequisite to being able to persevere and succeed.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many wonderful insights in your book, The Long Game. I'm looking forward to hearing back from our listeners when they read it, so everyone should check it out. It will be everywhere, so we don't need to go through where your book will be, but where are you if people want to follow up with you?

Dorie Clark:
Thank you, Bobbi, I appreciate it. Well, the best place to find me, and also about 700 free articles on my website, is DorieClark.com. For people who are interested in the concept of playing the long game and becoming a more strategic and long-term thinker, I do have a free resource, which is The Long Game Strategic Thinking Self-assessment. Folks can get it for free at dorieclark.com/thelonggame.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much and continued success.

Dorie Clark:
Thanks, Bobbi, great to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, did any of you think that it took that long to learn how to do a handstand? Would you hire a coach to teach you that? Yeah, me too. Dorie is so great. I actually went to her website after the interview to get some of her extra materials, very much worth making the effort, everyone, highly recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many highlights from the interview, but the big takeaway for me was really that last part about strategic patience. Sometimes things just take time and if you don't have the right mindset, or in some cases, we don't have the resources to go the distance, we need to get honest about where we are spending our time and the best way to be spending our time. I have definitely been hit up by people very aggressively to make an introduction to other people way too early, so that whole thing really resonated with me. I mean, a year, it sounds like a long time, but time goes pretty quickly and you can't force a relationship. There's so much more in Dorie's latest book, The Long Game. She wasn't kidding, I really did read it intensely and I do plan to reference the book a lot. There's a lot of good stuff there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Everyone, please be in touch. Let me know what resonated with you on this interview and let me know what more you want to hear on the podcast. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. Of course, if you want to hear more from me, I would love for you to join my newsletter. Just go to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and sign up there. Big thanks to The Long Game author, Dorie Clark, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley [Wall 00:19:59]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your Grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Want to have more power in the workplace? NPR’s Stacey Vanek Smith’s new book Machiavelli for Women takes the lessons from Machiacelli’s The Prince to give some specific and realistic ways to succeed.

Money Tips

Some money tips from the many amazing women Stacey references and interviews in her new book, Machiavelli for Women.

1. The money tip from Ruth Bader Ginsburg RBG about being interrupted and mansplained while being a Supreme Court justice.

2. The money tip from Sally Krawcheck on why people were much more open and receptive to an idea when using humor or distancing yourself from a controversial idea.

3. The money tip from Janet Yellen on why it’s important to create a place where people want to work and why making them feel supported is also so important.
   

Follow Stacey!

• Instagram - @svaneksmith

• Facebook - @staceyvaneksmith

• Twitter - @svaneksmith

• LinkedIn - @stacey-vanek-smith-4171ab13

• Website - www.staceyvaneksmith.com

• Book - Machiavelli for Women

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

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2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
A lot of the advice is cringy and it does feel backwards. It is disturbing to me to say stuff like, "If you smile more in an interview or bring up a personal or social connection with someone, you're more likely to get what you're negotiating. The negotiation is more likely to be successful." Or, "If you go into a negotiation with an adversarial attitude or you're feeling very assertive, that really could backfire. People will see you as pushy or aggressive. You should go in with a more collaborative, friendly attitude."

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends. In the words of our guest this week, a lot of the advice she's going to give is cringy. It is even disturbing and it feels kind of backwards, but the sad truth is that, well, it works. I've been trying it out, and she's right. I am talking about Stacey Vanek Smith. If you listen to public radio, you know her as the superstar journalist from NPR's Planet Money and The Indicator from Planet Money. She is out with a new book, Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win in the Workplace. It is a very high concept book. Stacey takes the 500-year-old ideas of Machiavelli and uses them as a reference point for advice for present date women. And guess what? The advice is really not what we usually hear at all. I'll share my thoughts about the book on the other side of the interview, but let's get right into it. Here is Stacey Vanek Smith. Stacey Vanek Smith, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Thanks, Bobbi. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am holding up, even though no one can see it as usual, I always seem to do that,, your new book Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win the Workplace. This is a really ambitious book. How did you even come up with this concept of bringing in this 500-year-old manuscript book from Machiavelli that people really associate with male power to this concept to female power?

Stacey Vanek Smith:
To be honest, I kind of backed into the Machiavelli part. This book came about because I was frustrated personally. I've been covering business and economics for about 15 years in public radio, always in public radio. I had been, as part of that job, talking to a lot of economists, talking to a lot of business leaders, talking to CEOs. And so many of them are men. Economics is 75% male. CEOs are 80% male. For Fortune 500 companies, it's 90% male. And then the things like the gender pay gap. Women make about 80 cents on the dollar compared to what men make. That has been stuck for 10 years. At the same time in my own career, I've been reading a lot of advice books and listening to a lot of advice and just being really frustrated with the advice being offered to women. I felt like a lot of it didn't resonate with me.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I feel like there's a lot of girl power stuff that in my experience has not worked well. And then when I tried to use advice geared towards men, that definitely didn't work well. And I just wanted the truth. I just wanted some real advice. I was like, "Just give it to me straight." My mind just kept going back to Machiavelli. This class I had taken in college, I had read Machiavelli for that class and I hated Machiavelli. I thought he was so cynical and just very basic and obsessed with stupid things I didn't care about like crushing people and power and having... I didn't care about any of that stuff, obviously. I went into public radio. If I cared about money and power, I wouldn't have gotten into public radio. But I started thinking about Machiavelli and I re-read The Prince and all these lights went off in my brain. And that's how the project got started.

Bobbi Rebell:
Some of the advice, in your own words, that you give in this book is pretty disturbing. Tell us, what do you see as disturbing in this book?

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Yes, it's really disturbing. People have told me this. They're like, "A lot of the advice is cringy. It feels backwards." A lot of the advice is cringy and it does feel backwards. It is disturbing to me to say stuff like, "If you smile more in an interview or bring up a personal or social connection with someone, you're more likely to get what you're negotiating. The negotiation is more likely to be successful." Or, "If you go into a negotiation with an adversarial attitude or you're feeling very assertive, that really could backfire. People will see you as pushy or aggressive. You should go in with a more collaborative, friendly attitude." That is disturbing to me. But what is way more disturbing to me is that women are twice as likely to live in poverty after age 65 or that 80% of CEOs are men. That women are not getting the funding they need for their companies, so that even though 40% of businesses are started by women, 2% of venture capital goes to women.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
So, women's businesses were far more likely to fail during the pandemic because they just weren't capitalized. The same is true for minorities and the funding for those businesses actually fell last year, which is amazing to me. That is far more disturbing to me. And so a lot of the advice is advice I wish I didn't have to give. I wish that a lot of it we're different, but we are living in an unfair structure. All you have to do is look at the data and you see it. We're living inside of an economy that is not fair. And it is, also, it is a structure that is very powerful. It is a lot. There's a lot of money in our economy. There's a lot of power in our economy. It is changing, but it's changing pretty slowly and in certain ways it's stuck. And if you want to navigate it, I just at least wanted to give people the tools that they needed to navigate it and I wanted to be as honest as I could.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's hard to hear because I know I've been coached to not put, let's say, a little smiley face in an email or to not have these little soft filler sentences in there. But the truth is, you say in the book, that works when coming from a woman.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Oh, yes. The softener. This is super interesting to me, too. So, I've been beating myself up about this for years. Overuse of exclamation points, overuse of emoji, lots of softeners. "Hey, how's it going? I was just wondering if XYZ." And I've been beating myself up about this. Why do I say this all the time? Why do I say things like, "You know, I was just thinking." Why do I say this when I'm introducing an idea? But studies show that men actually are more open to ideas and retain things that women say more when softeners are used. Softeners work. That's why we use them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And it's interesting because, as I said, we have been coached to take those out. In terms of money tips, one thing that I really enjoyed in the book is that you refer to and interview some incredible women. So, I want to go through three of my favorites. So, the first one that you reference is RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, with some mansplaining and interrupting that famously went on with someone that actually was before her. I mean, she was in the position of power and yet this was happening. Tell us about that and how she dealt with it and what people can take away from that.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
This is one of the most amazing anecdotes in the book. It came from a study that came out a few years ago that looked at Supreme Court transcripts to study interruptions. And what they found was that female justices on the Supreme Court got interrupted three times more often than male justices, even though they spoke less and used fewer words when they did speak. What was even more shocking was that the lawyers arguing cases before the Supreme Court were also interrupting female justices, even though they are not allowed to interrupt justices. They would just jump in and interrupt female justices quite frequently, including Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And as someone who has really struggled to be heard...

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I'm in media so it's a lot of pitch meetings, ideas meetings. I've had my ideas stolen a million times. I've been talked over, interrupted, people forget I said things all the time. I mean, this is something that's definitely happened to me in my career in life. And I felt so relieved. Just like, "This happens to Ruth Bader Ginsburg?" I thought I was just messing up. But no, if it's happening to Ruth Bader Ginsburg, I think you can assume that it happens to literally everyone. It's just most of us don't have as much power as Ruth Bader Ginsburg had.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another incredible woman that you did talk to in the book is Sallie Krawcheck. She's featured pretty prominently throughout the book. There's some things that you reveal in the book and I'm going to just leave it to people. I'm going to tell people it's on page 85. So, you can go to the book and look it up when you buy the book. You can learn about some of the truly offensive things that I don't even want to go there on this podcast. What's the Machiavellian lesson that we learn from her? She has a great sense of humor.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
She has a great sense of humor, and she's so honest and she sees so clearly. It was such a privilege to talk with her because when I asked questions, she never couched anything. She was just completely direct and honest. I learned a lot of things from her. One of my favorite lessons from Sallie was she said, "A lesson I think people don't get enough is that this is not your fault." She's like, "It ends up kind of falling on women and marginalized workers to deal with an unfair workplace. But the fact the workplace is unfair is not your fault. And the fact that it's falling on you to deal with it is really unfair." There was a lot of relief in that because, I mean, all the time and energy we spend strategizing to get paid more, to get promoted more quickly, or to get promoted at an equal level as our white male colleagues with hair, that's time we could be spending on other things, on life or Netflix or coming up with brilliant ideas or playing with our kids.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Instead, we have to spend it doing things like reading articles on how to get more out of your negotiation, trying to figure out why you're underpaid and things like that. My other favorite pieces of advice from Sallie Krawcheck had to do with leadership. Of course, she was working in the super male world of Wall Street, super male world of Wall Street, and trying to give orders to people who did not necessarily want to take direction from a woman, were not excited about that. Two things she said she would do. One, she used humor. Humor as a softener, actually. She would use humor and make jokes. And she said, "It's really hard for people to hate you if they're laughing with you," which I thought was pretty brilliant.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
And the other thing she would do is distance herself from her ideas. And I've started using this and it's amazing how well it works. So, I mean, if she felt very strongly like, "We need to go in direction B," she would just say, "You know, I was just thinking, I'm not sure I believe this, but why don't we try direction B and just see how that works out?" And she said people were much more open and receptive than they were if she came guns blazing out of the gate, "I feel strongly we need to go in direction B."

Bobbi Rebell:
And that brings us to the third woman that I want to highlight, which is Janet Yellen. So, former Fed chair, treasury secretary. You titled her section, The Power of Preparation and Pulling Up Your Socks. Tell us more about her style because she really took a feminine approach to managing an office. Again, very male environment at the Fed.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Janet Yellen told me that she did not think managing people was hard. She was like, "You just tell people that you value their work, you support them in their work, and you make sure they feel valued." And I was like, "Oh, well, yeah." But I think part of the reason Janet Yellen has gotten so much support is because that is what she gives people. She gives people support. She thinks about what will make them happy, what will motivate them. And I mean, it's very simple, but I mean, not all managers do that. I would say almost no managers do that. It's really rare. And the fact she just said, "Oh, managing people isn't hard," was hilarious to me, but I think she comes by it honestly. I think she just cares about the work and respects the people doing the work and conveys that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I think that represents one of the common themes in the book, which is that you have to be very practical. You can be idealistic and say, "I don't want to be the woman that gets my ideas heard because I have a sense of humor and make people laugh or present them in a softer way," as with Sallie Krawcheck, or with Janet Yellen talking about, "I just want to have a place where people want to work." But perception and what we want to be isn't always the practical solution. And I love that this book has a lot of very specific and practical ideas for the readers. It also has a lot of you in it. It's very personal. You reveal a lot that I did not know. I've listened to your work for as long as I could remember. Tell us, why did you get so personal? Because you do reveal a lot of vulnerable moments in your life.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Yes. That was a conscious choice simply because, for me reading books about career advice, the advice always seems to be given a little bit from on high, like from an expert, and it makes it very hard to connect with people. So, I wanted to be very honest about where I was coming from. I'm like, "Listen, I don't like negotiating. Historically, I've been abysmally terrible at it. I have not had success in negotiation. I've avoided them studiously, for years often." I wanted to be honest about where I was coming from, because that is honestly where I was coming from. I have a lot of these issues I was exploring for myself. I didn't know what I would find. I didn't know what the research would show. I didn't know what people would say. But I wanted to be honest about my own experiences, the good and the bad, just so that people would understand that I've also been through this, too, some of these things.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I wanted to be honest about the experiences that I had had in the hopes that it would make people who are maybe frustrated feel less alone. And also that they would know that it wasn't just like, "Oh, well I have had this transplendent career with no moments of self-doubt and I've just gone from peak to peak and it's been amazing, but I understand some of you people are having trouble, so here's my advice." I wanted to be totally honest about some of the experiences and some of the hardest experiences in my career. I thought that vulnerability was important.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I agree. And I think that it really works for the book and I think it's going to be very appreciated by the readers. And I know it certainly really hit home with me because I put you on a pedestal and hearing that there were times that really sucked in your career and knowing that, I think, makes you so much more relatable. It makes the book so much more relatable, and I really think it is appreciated. Stacey Vanek Smith, this has been so wonderful. Tell us more. We know the book is going to be everywhere. Where can people reach you? Besides, of course, hosting. We didn't even say. You host The Indicator.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I host the podcast, The Indicator from Planet Money. There's my website, which is staceyvaneksmith.com. I wasn't very creative in the naming of it, but you can contact me through that site. I'm also on Twitter @svaneksmith, V-A-N-E-K Smith. Or Facebook, or I'm also on LinkedIn. So, you can message me any of those ways. And oh, I'm also on Instagram. All the social media things, or you can just email me through my website.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. It was such a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, friends, a brief recap. You were warned. The advice is, yeah, I think you guys all agree with me, it's pretty cringy. But it works. And we have proof now because we talked about three women in our interview, and if you go through the book, there's a lot more real life examples of exactly how, well, kind of messed up it is, but better to know than to be ignorant. And we learned that even some of the most remarkable women, we talked about RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sallie Krawcheck, and Janet Yellen, they've had to use these Machiavellian principles to manage their careers. And yes, even all-star journalists like Stacey Vanek Smith have had major career setbacks by doing what we're kind of told to do even though, as we know, it's not what works. The hardest part about this interview was actually having to end it because there is so much we did not get to, but it's all in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
And so I hope you guys are going to step up and challenge yourself and pick up a copy. So, this book, maybe it feels a little intimidating when you first see it. Trust me, it is worth the effort. And once you get into it, you're not going to be able to put it down. Settle in. Read it this fall. Most of the books here, I talk about being a quick read, page-turners and so on. And there are times when I meant to put down the book and it was the end of a chapter and I said, "Oh, I'm going go and make dinner and do something else," but then I read just a few more pages and got back into it. But honestly, this is a book to savor and really let the concepts settle in and sometimes flip back and reread a little section to make sure that you really get the point and can apply it to what's going on in your life. It's worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends. This podcast, it's free and that's wonderful. I put so much effort into it and I want to spread the word. I want to grow my audience and I need your help. Please share it with your friends, post on social media, and if you're not already, please do follow or subscribe depending on what podcast platform you listen to. They use different words these days. I think you know what I mean. We want to make sure that you get the podcasts on a regular basis. And by the way, if that platform is Apple or any other platform that allows reviews, please leave a review. I read them all and I truly appreciate all of your support. I also appreciate the fabulous Stacey Vanek Smith, author of Machiavelli for Women, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley [Wall 00:19:14]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Grownups need to step up and do some planning for things we don’t want to even think about let alone admit we need to be ready to do. The duo behind Women Who Money join us to share their absolute must-do’s right now-without waiting another minute- from their new book Estate Planning 101.

5 Money Tips for Planning for the Unexpected

1 - Know your net worth 

2 - Speaking of insurance 

3 - Name your beneficiaries 

4 - Protect yourself in case of emergency 

5 - Protect your assets and minor children

Follow Amy + Vicki!

• Instagram - @womenwhomoney

• Facebook - @MoneyTalkForWomen

• Twitter - @WomenWhoMoney

• Website - www.womenwhomoney.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Marriage Kids and Money’s Andy Hill joins Bobbi to break down the Netflix hit show that challenges couples to choose between the wedding of their dreams, and becoming home owners as they start their life together. 

A Little About The Show

Andy Hill:
So it's a 10 episode series on Netflix, and it follows these couples in Nashville. Then they've got a limited budget. So they've got to choose the mortgage, or they've got to choose the wedding of their dreams. So the mortgage obviously is for their first home or the home that they're going to have together. Most of them have around 30K saved up. And the hosts of the show, as you mentioned, Sarah, she's got the wedding planning, and then Nicole is the real estate agent. So they have a friendly competition about who's going to win over the couple, whether it's the marriage or the mortgage.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, and it's interesting. Most of the couples have somewhere between 25 and $35,000 saved up for this. And that does work out well because the average cost of a wedding pre COVID, which is when this was filmed, and we'll talk about the relevance of that later, was about $34,000. Which of course, I'm in New York so I'm like, oh, that's not so bad. But in the real world, outside of the island of Manhattan, that is a ton of money. All right, Andy, you're the perfect person for this show. You have the marriage, but you don't have a mortgage anymore. So I know you have a lot to say about this show. You've watched a couple episodes, right?

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I watched a couple episodes. I watched the first one where it was a new couple coming in from Florida. And they were deciding whether they want to get married or pay for the wedding or do the house. And then I also watched another episode with an older lesbian couple, that they were going to say, Hey, do we want the big gay wedding, or do we want the big gay house? So it was fun to see different demographics in Nashville trying to figure out their situation. But yeah, overall, I thought it was a very interesting concept. And based on watching it, it was a little downer. Honestly, I feel like you come into it and it's like, okay, you set yourself up for the big hopes of the wedding because you've seen all the movies, or you've seen all your friends do it. Or you've got to get the big house because you've seen all your friends or your family or in the movies do it.

Andy Hill:
And I feel like when we throw that out into society, it's like, here's the things that you have to do, I think that it can be a depressing notion of you're not quite there financially. And it brought back memories for me with both of those situations as well. So I didn't quite have the money for either one of those things. And we got into forcing ourselves financially to do them. So it was kind of a ... I don't know, it's a happy go lucky show, but it made me a little bit sad.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I will say. So there is this reality TV veneer that they sometimes do where everything is presented as positivity. It is interesting because there is that dark undercurrent because they never have a choice of, well, you don't have to do either one.

Andy Hill:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, that's interesting. I joked that you know about the marriage, but not the mortgage anymore. You did pay off your mortgage. What do you think about the idea of what it's saying? That it positions home ownership has this ideal that couples should be striving for. They never really say, well, or you could just, do what you want to do [crosstalk 00:05:49] or whatever.

Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I think there's the nationwide shame around renting. And that's something that I'd like to dispel, especially since ... I'm a homeowner. I love my home and we paid off the mortgage. Yes, it's great. But for my first home ownership experience, I bought with too little down with not an understanding of the general costs of home ownership outside of the mortgage. A lot of these things, a lot of the show is like, Hey, here's the home that you can afford for the mortgage. But then you move in and it's like, I got to furnish that thing. I got to get curtains. Oh, the roof is not in a good situation. I have to ... et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all the things that you didn't know because you are renting, all the things you got to fix because you don't have a landlord anymore. You are the landlord.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's so interesting that you say that because the plot twist for this show actually happened after filming ended in my mind. Because when you first see the title of this show, every single person I've asked, because as I mentioned, I am obsessed with it, has said, who would not choose the house over the wedding? Everyone says, why would you? If you only have 30 grand, of course, you're going to get a house, especially cause some other living situations are less than ideal. They're living with parents or whatever, roommates. The thing is, is that you think when you're watching it, who's not going to choose the mortgage. And I didn't actually do a count, but I'm telling you, I feel like it's at least half chose the wedding.

Andy Hill:
Yeah, it was the majority. Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
And on the surface, people get judgey. And they're like, you would blow 30 grand on four hours? And I asked the ladies, I said, after the pandemic, did people regret the weddings? Especially because some of the weddings were even downsized because they timed out to be the beginning of the pandemic. And they said, no. The regrets, if anything, came from the homeowners, which goes to what you just said. The wedding. Sure, they "blew 30 grand on it." But they had the day of a lifetime. They had a memory, they had their friends and family there, which we talk about how millennials and gen Z, they all want these experiences. Well, that's what the wedding was. The wedding was an experience versus a thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what people forget is that the house does carry future financial responsibilities, positive things too. But it was very interesting talking to the ladies, seeing this afterthought. Do you think that people are too quick to judge stereotypes when they go to these things, where they judge people for spending a lot of money on a huge trip or a wedding or whatever it may be? And we were talking offline. We have a big family event that we're planning that I think we're spending way too much money on, but I also feel like this is what life is, right?

Speaker 3:
Absolutely. If you've saved up the money to purchase something, whether it's a thing or an experience in your life, I think there should be zero shame, and you enjoying what you've worked hard to have. Now, if, Bobby, you're going to take a big, old, personal loan to throw this party and rack up some double-digit interest to do that, then maybe not so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you were the host, let's say you're the moderator, they really didn't have a neutral party. But if you were there hosting it with the ladies, what would your advice to be as a neutral party to these couples?

Speaker 3:
I think that could be fun actually, because the show is supposed to be fun. And it's like, Hey, choose one or the other. And it's like a game show, like you said. It also opens up opportunity for social commentary at the end to be like, okay, Hey, we know that this is not the real world here, everybody. You don't have to do just this or that. There's a lot of other things you can do. I think maybe they should have risen up the conversation around renting. I think they should have risen up the conversation around maybe not having to do an extravagant thing if you can't afford it. And the realities of debt in our country, because those are really serious topics.

Speaker 3:
And since we're playfully talking about a $30,000 choice, which is very difficult for the majority of America, I think it opens up an opportunity to have real conversations. So maybe for the people who are on the show, maybe it's an opportunity for them to talk, get real, get real money talk and say, Hey, this is what it actually ended up being when we decided to go for the wedding. Or now that we've decided to go for the wedding, we have $0 to put down on this house that we're actually really interested. So there is a choice. And I think that it opens up an opportunity for education after the fun, which is important too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. Final thoughts on the show. Are you going to be watching the rest of the episodes now that I've gotten you sucked into it?

Speaker 3:
You know what, Bobby? I'll be honest with you. I will probably not watch any more of them, but I really appreciated you opening it up to me. It's just that's not typically my type of show. I don't really watch a lot of reality TV, but I liked the fact that it hit on both of those buttons, marriage and mortgage because I talk about that all the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, do you feel that it had lessons, maybe things that you already know? I mean, there was a lot of negotiation. I feel there was a lot of priority there. And I would have liked to have heard more about how they got to saving $30,000, which is no small feat.

Speaker 3:
Exactly. And I think that that in itself could teach a lot of people things. What I did like that you're bringing up, I like how they negotiated. I really like how when you come to the end and they make the final decision, here's what I was able to do for you, whether it was for the house or for the wedding venue. I used to work on event planning for 15 years, so I know all of the importance of the costs of events.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, tell us. Give us some insider secrets, Andy.

Speaker 3:
It's very important to not just take the price at face value, which the show hosts did, which was fantastic. What can you do for me? Where can we find some concessions? These people are considering going over these other locations. What can we do to save a little bit of money? Never take the price at face value in anything in life. This is an opportunity for you to negotiate, flex that skill, and go into it being like, Hey, you know what? If we can't get it, it's not going to be the end of the world. There's going to be somewhere else to go. And with that attitude, you're going to save a lot of money with a lot of choices in life, whether it's an event venue or a home or a thing that you want to buy in life. So that was one of my favorite things that the host did and showed the power of negotiation, which I think is really good for everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they did do some budgeting. They did say, for example, the wedding, if you spend this much on the dress ... I mean, there was a lot of humor in there. To me, that's a lot of the watchability. You can see, everyone, I'm trying to get Andy to really watch the rest of these. But I mean, there was a woman that had to have this ranch dressing tower. I mean, it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard, but it was also her enthusiasm was infectious. So you find these characters endearing, even in what we might perceive as silliness. The truth is we all have our thing.

Speaker 3:
Yeah. Well, I like ranch on anything, so I respect that. So pizza, vegetables. So maybe I'll have to watch that episode. I think that's that ...

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe watch that one, and the one with a donut wall.

Speaker 3:
Oh, I like it. I like donuts, and I like ranch. Not together, but I like them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, see? I'm going to win you over. When we're done with this, I'm going to work on getting Andy to watch the rest of the show because these characters are endearing. You are rooting for them. The fact that this pandemic happened and squashed a lot of the ones ... the wedding's dreams, but they still love the weddings. It's like, I love that because the weddings, ultimately, even though they did ... and they put budgets up on the screen, by the way. They do, they show what things are going to cost. They do push people to make choices within the wedding. More so the house, it's a little trickier, but they do do that. So I thought that was also a good financial lesson. So I'm winning you over, Andy.

Speaker 3:
I like it. I'm not knocking your show. I don't normally do reality shows, but [crosstalk 00:12:58] you're a good friend of mine. If you want me to watch an another episode, I will.

Bobbi Rebell:
I recommend it for people that like reality TV.

Check out Sarah and Nichole’s episode here!

Follow Andy!

• Instagram - @andyhillmkm

• Twitter - @andyhillmkm

• Facebook - @andyhillMKM

• YouTube - @MarriageKidsandMoney

• Pinterest - @andyhillmkm

• Website - MarriageKidsandMoney.com
  
  

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over@grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, friends, to our latest installment of our 2021 financial grownup summer watch party series. During COVID, I had a chance to check out some streaming shows and there are a lot of undiscovered gems out there that I think have some really good money lessons. So we're going to have a separate watch party. Actually, we already are. I think this is our third episode highlighting, of course, some of my personal favorites and some new buzzworthy shows. And of course the money tips that we learned from them. And of course, what is a watch party without some good friends? So I am so excited to welcome Andy Hill. He is the host of Marriage, Kids and Money, the podcast, and the growing business empire around it. Welcome, Andy.

Andy Hill:
Thank you, Bobby. I'm so glad to be here and glad to be returning for some more fun with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You have a lot going on as the world opens up, I say optimistically.

Andy Hill:
Yes. Let's keep saying it optimistically, please.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes. Well, I think you're one of the co-hosts of Fin Con this year.

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I'm excited about that. Yeah. Paula Pant and I are going to be co-hosting together in Fin Con in Austin, Texas. And I am pumped about it, to be able to not only do that, but hang out with a bunch of fellow money nerds just like you.

Bobbi Rebell:
In person, so cool. All right.

Andy Hill:
Yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get to this week's show. We're going to be talking about Marriage and Mortgage. I think it's actually called Marriage or Mortgage. I misspoke, so Marriage or Mortgage. It was an obsessive pandemic binge show for me, so much so that I had the stars of the show, Sarah Miller and Nicole Holmes, as guests on an earlier episode of this podcast. And yes, we'll leave a link in the show notes on my website, bobbirebell.com. So you guys can check that one out. I was obsessed. Andy, I had to prompt you to watch this, but you were a good sport. You dove right in. Tell us a little bit about the show.

Andy Hill:
Yeah, so it's a very interesting ... and you were right. It's definitely an or because that's the whole point of the show, right? Marriage or Mortgage. So it's a 10 episode series on Netflix, and it follows these couples in Nashville. Then they've got a limited budget. So they've got to choose the mortgage, or they've got to choose the wedding of their dreams. So the mortgage obviously is for their first home or the home that they're going to have together. Most of them have around 30K saved up. And the hosts of the show, as you mentioned, Sarah, she's got the wedding planning, and then Nicole is the real estate agent. So they have a friendly competition about who's going to win over the couple, whether it's the marriage or the mortgage.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, and it's interesting. Most of the couples have somewhere between 25 and $35,000 saved up for this. And that does work out well because the average cost of a wedding pre COVID, which is when this was filmed, and we'll talk about the relevance of that later, was about $34,000. Which of course, I'm in New York so I'm like, oh, that's not so bad. But in the real world, outside of the island of Manhattan, that is a ton of money. All right, Andy, you're the perfect person for this show. You have the marriage, but you don't have a mortgage anymore. So I know you have a lot to say about this show. You've watched a couple episodes, right?

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I watched a couple episodes. I watched the first one where it was a new couple coming in from Florida. And they were deciding whether they want to get married or pay for the wedding or do the house. And then I also watched another episode with an older lesbian couple, that they were going to say, Hey, do we want the big gay wedding, or do we want the big gay house? So it was fun to see different demographics in Nashville trying to figure out their situation. But yeah, overall, I thought it was a very interesting concept. And based on watching it, it was a little downer. Honestly, I feel like you come into it and it's like, okay, you set yourself up for the big hopes of the wedding because you've seen all the movies, or you've seen all your friends do it. Or you've got to get the big house because you've seen all your friends or your family or in the movies do it.

Andy Hill:
And I feel like when we throw that out into society, it's like, here's the things that you have to do, I think that it can be a depressing notion of you're not quite there financially. And it brought back memories for me with both of those situations as well. So I didn't quite have the money for either one of those things. And we got into forcing ourselves financially to do them. So it was kind of a ... I don't know, it's a happy go lucky show, but it made me a little bit sad.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I will say. So there is this reality TV veneer that they sometimes do where everything is presented as positivity. It is interesting because there is that dark undercurrent because they never have a choice of, well, you don't have to do either one.

Andy Hill:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, that's interesting. I joked that you know about the marriage, but not the mortgage anymore. You did pay off your mortgage. What do you think about the idea of what it's saying? That it positions home ownership has this ideal that couples should be striving for. They never really say, well, or you could just, do what you want to do [crosstalk 00:05:49] or whatever.

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I think there's the nationwide shame around renting. And that's something that I'd like to dispel, especially since ... I'm a homeowner. I love my home and we paid off the mortgage. Yes, it's great. But for my first home ownership experience, I bought with too little down with not an understanding of the general costs of home ownership outside of the mortgage. A lot of these things, a lot of the show is like, Hey, here's the home that you can afford for the mortgage. But then you move in and it's like, I got to furnish that thing. I got to get curtains. Oh, the roof is not in a good situation. I have to ... et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all the things that you didn't know because you are renting, all the things you got to fix because you don't have a landlord anymore. You are the landlord.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's so interesting that you say that because the plot twist for this show actually happened after filming ended in my mind. Because when you first see the title of this show, every single person I've asked, because as I mentioned, I am obsessed with it, has said, who would not choose the house over the wedding? Everyone says, why would you? If you only have 30 grand, of course, you're going to get a house, especially cause some other living situations are less than ideal. They're living with parents or whatever, roommates. The thing is, is that you think when you're watching it, who's not going to choose the mortgage. And I didn't actually do a count, but I'm telling you, I feel like it's at least half chose the wedding.

Andy Hill:
Yeah, it was the majority. Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
And on the surface, people get judgey. And they're like, you would blow 30 grand on four hours? And I asked the ladies, I said, after the pandemic, did people regret the weddings? Especially because some of the weddings were even downsized because they timed out to be the beginning of the pandemic. And they said, no. The regrets, if anything, came from the homeowners, which goes to what you just said. The wedding. Sure, they "blew 30 grand on it." But they had the day of a lifetime. They had a memory, they had their friends and family there, which we talk about how millennials and gen Z, they all want these experiences. Well, that's what the wedding was. The wedding was an experience versus a thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what people forget is that the house does carry future financial responsibilities, positive things too. But it was very interesting talking to the ladies, seeing this afterthought. Do you think that people are too quick to judge stereotypes when they go to these things, where they judge people for spending a lot of money on a huge trip or a wedding or whatever it may be? And we were talking offline. We have a big family event that we're planning that I think we're spending way too much money on, but I also feel like this is what life is, right?

Speaker 3:
Absolutely. If you've saved up the money to purchase something, whether it's a thing or an experience in your life, I think there should be zero shame, and you enjoying what you've worked hard to have. Now, if, Bobby, you're going to take a big, old, personal loan to throw this party and rack up some double-digit interest to do that, then maybe not so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you were the host, let's say you're the moderator, they really didn't have a neutral party. But if you were there hosting it with the ladies, what would your advice to be as a neutral party to these couples?

Speaker 3:
I think that could be fun actually, because the show is supposed to be fun. And it's like, Hey, choose one or the other. And it's like a game show, like you said. It also opens up opportunity for social commentary at the end to be like, okay, Hey, we know that this is not the real world here, everybody. You don't have to do just this or that. There's a lot of other things you can do. I think maybe they should have risen up the conversation around renting. I think they should have risen up the conversation around maybe not having to do an extravagant thing if you can't afford it. And the realities of debt in our country, because those are really serious topics.

Speaker 3:
And since we're playfully talking about a $30,000 choice, which is very difficult for the majority of America, I think it opens up an opportunity to have real conversations. So maybe for the people who are on the show, maybe it's an opportunity for them to talk, get real, get real money talk and say, Hey, this is what it actually ended up being when we decided to go for the wedding. Or now that we've decided to go for the wedding, we have $0 to put down on this house that we're actually really interested. So there is a choice. And I think that it opens up an opportunity for education after the fun, which is important too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. Final thoughts on the show. Are you going to be watching the rest of the episodes now that I've gotten you sucked into it?

Speaker 3:
You know what, Bobby? I'll be honest with you. I will probably not watch any more of them, but I really appreciated you opening it up to me. It's just that's not typically my type of show. I don't really watch a lot of reality TV, but I liked the fact that it hit on both of those buttons, marriage and mortgage because I talk about that all the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, do you feel that it had lessons, maybe things that you already know? I mean, there was a lot of negotiation. I feel there was a lot of priority there. And I would have liked to have heard more about how they got to saving $30,000, which is no small feat.

Speaker 3:
Exactly. And I think that that in itself could teach a lot of people things. What I did like that you're bringing up, I like how they negotiated. I really like how when you come to the end and they make the final decision, here's what I was able to do for you, whether it was for the house or for the wedding venue. I used to work on event planning for 15 years, so I know all of the importance of the costs of events.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, tell us. Give us some insider secrets, Andy.

Speaker 3:
It's very important to not just take the price at face value, which the show hosts did, which was fantastic. What can you do for me? Where can we find some concessions? These people are considering going over these other locations. What can we do to save a little bit of money? Never take the price at face value in anything in life. This is an opportunity for you to negotiate, flex that skill, and go into it being like, Hey, you know what? If we can't get it, it's not going to be the end of the world. There's going to be somewhere else to go. And with that attitude, you're going to save a lot of money with a lot of choices in life, whether it's an event venue or a home or a thing that you want to buy in life. So that was one of my favorite things that the host did and showed the power of negotiation, which I think is really good for everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they did do some budgeting. They did say, for example, the wedding, if you spend this much on the dress ... I mean, there was a lot of humor in there. To me, that's a lot of the watchability. You can see, everyone, I'm trying to get Andy to really watch the rest of these. But I mean, there was a woman that had to have this ranch dressing tower. I mean, it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard, but it was also her enthusiasm was infectious. So you find these characters endearing, even in what we might perceive as silliness. The truth is we all have our thing.

Speaker 3:
Yeah. Well, I like ranch on anything, so I respect that. So pizza, vegetables. So maybe I'll have to watch that episode. I think that's that ...

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe watch that one, and the one with a donut wall.

Speaker 3:
Oh, I like it. I like donuts, and I like ranch. Not together, but I like them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, see? I'm going to win you over. When we're done with this, I'm going to work on getting Andy to watch the rest of the show because these characters are endearing. You are rooting for them. The fact that this pandemic happened and squashed a lot of the ones ... the wedding's dreams, but they still love the weddings. It's like, I love that because the weddings, ultimately, even though they did ... and they put budgets up on the screen, by the way. They do, they show what things are going to cost. They do push people to make choices within the wedding. More so the house, it's a little trickier, but they do do that. So I thought that was also a good financial lesson. So I'm winning you over, Andy.

Speaker 3:
I like it. I'm not knocking your show. I don't normally do reality shows, but [crosstalk 00:12:58] you're a good friend of mine. If you want me to watch an another episode, I will.

Bobbi Rebell:
I recommend it for people that like reality TV. But in the meantime, everyone likes you, Andy Hill. Everyone should be following you and all of your ventures. Tell us more about what you're up to and where people can find you.

Speaker 3:
Yeah. So I have a podcast called Marriage, Kids and Money, which is appropriate for the show we're talking about today.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, that's why I picked you to do this. Hello.

Speaker 3:
I know. I'm so thankful for being here. It's a show focused on helping families make smart financial choices that let them have a great today and tomorrow. So I've been doing it for about five years. It's a podcast, it's a YouTube channel. Come check it out, marriagekidsandmoney.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's award-winning by the way.

Speaker 3:
Oh, thank you. Yes, it is award winning. I do a show on Fridays now with my wife called Bread and Wine, where it's her and I talking about stuff just very similar to the show, big decisions we're making as a family and what we're going to do. And I am secretly trying to get an award for that one, so Nicole will have to come with me to Austin. You guys can hang out.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, absolutely. Well, you've got my vote for all of that. And everyone, follow Andy, follow all of his shows. And if you enjoy this podcast, please tell a friend and make sure that you are following the podcast. That's new terminology now because we no longer say subscribe. We say, follow the podcast. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. Let me know what you liked about the show. Let me know what you want to hear more of on the podcast. And thanks, Andy, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Andy Hill:
Thank you for inviting me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Our summer watch party continues with the controversial new Netflix reality tv series My Unorthodox Life. Bobbi and Jessica Goodman,  best-selling author of  “They Wish They Were Us” and "They’ll Never Catch Us” explain why it’s getting serious backlash, and why they can’t stop watching it anyway.

A Little About The Show

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, so the premise is that there's this woman named Julia Haart and she's in her forties and she's the CEO of Elite World Group, which is a modeling conglomerate. She's launching a fashion line. She's this very glamorous, seemingly free kind of woman. She's married to an Italian man who used to be her... She used to work with at La Perla. She has four kids, kind of teenagers and young adults. And the show kind of frames this as, this is this crazy kind of New York city family, but twist... She used to be Orthodox Jewish and live in a community in upstate New York called Monsey, which is known for being very insular and having lots of different groups and communities and sects of Orthodox Judaism living there.

Jessica Goodman:
I have some thoughts on the problematic framing of this narrative. That the fact that they kind of frame it as a twist is a little bit othering in a lot of ways, but her whole thing is that she's not a part of this community anymore. And her kids are involved with the community to varying degrees. Her youngest son is... I think he's either in late middle school or early high school, and he still lives up there with his father and is very much a part of the community. And her other kids have varying levels of faith in Judaism.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm kind of amazed that they all agreed to so enthusiastically be part of this show, but they really... I almost feel like they're prepped for it and they're ready and roaring to go, which seems a little jarring. I don't know. And the clothing. I mean, I don't even know where to begin with the styling and the wardrobe on this. I mean, it's over the top. I guess that's part of why I had this Kardashian feeling and I have not been a loyal viewer of the Kardashians. I've kind of watched a few episodes over the years so I'm not really necessarily qualified to say that. But it's pretty flashy.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, totally. And I feel like that's definitely on purpose because she's framing herself as a fashion mogul and she came into the fashion world having no experience in it and knowing nothing about it and yeah. The fashion and the glam and all of that really is such a part of the show. And also obviously I've been doing deep dive stalking of everybody who's on the show and her oldest daughter Batsheva, who's 27 or something. She's a full fledged fashion influencer. Has a million followers on TikToK. She was doing that before the show launched. So clearly, this is a family where fashion is a big part of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the show is a very deliberate and polished show. There's nothing accidental in this show. It is structured. So give me your take. I mean, I find this fascinating. I didn't binge all of it yet only because I've been blocked by other true obligations, but I'll probably finish the rest right after we're done taping this because it's so fascinating. What's your general takeaway from this? Just to begin with.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, totally. I mean, you told me we were going to talk about this show and I had heard about it a little bit and I was like, oh, I'll watch an episode and see what happens. Fast forward four hours, I'd watched basically the whole thing. I couldn't take my eyes away from it. I think it's extremely compelling television. But yeah, the whole thing is super contrived. It's very clearly... They decide what the storylines are going to be. There's nothing real about it. It's very much like The Hills in that way. Fake reality. And Julia is an executive producer on the show, just like the Kardashians are executive producers on their show. So you're getting the lifestyle and the perspective that she wants you to see and I think you have to really take that into consideration when you're viewing the show.

Jessica Goodman:
I grew up and I'm still a reformed Jewish person and I think what's most interesting to me is seeing the different levels of Judaism portrayed on the show. One of the daughters is basically... I don't know if she considers herself secular, but she is 20 years old and she eats treyf, like oysters and all those kind of stuff. And her older sister is still Orthodox and has a very contrived storyline with her husband about whether or not she's going to be wearing pants, when she's also wearing an off the shoulder shirt. The whole thing is kind of fake, but I'm interested in seeing these conversations play out within the family and how they accept one another's different parts of religion.

Jessica Goodman:
I think there are some really problematic moments in the show too. There's been a real big backlash against her from women in the Orthodox community who say that she portrays them... That Julia says that Orthodox women don't have free will. And a lot of Orthodox women are coming out and saying that's not true. We do have free will and this is how, and this is why. I'm not part of that community so I can't really speculate or comment on that. It's really interesting to watch it play out and to see what she... How she has reinvented herself. No matter what you think of her or the show, this woman reinvented herself.

Jessica Goodman:
And some of her history, there seemed to be some gaps in it. I would really love a real deep dive fact check on what she's been up to since she left the community. But again, like I said, I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to. Okay. So this is my big word vomit about the show, but that's what I think.

Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Bobbi Rebell:
That's all very valid. What drew me to the show, coming from my sort of perspective, was the money thing. And one of the things that I think is interesting is there is a missing link in how she sort of went... Because it hasn't been even a decade, I think, right? How did she go from having nothing? And they do make a point in the show that they don't... That the women certainly, and also the men to a large degree, are not educated in any formal way. We do have a storyline, for example-- this is a little bit of a spoiler-- that Batsheva's husband Ben, only has a high school education and therefore his career prospects are limited because that's all they do. They study Torah and they get a high school education and I presume the women have even less of an education.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing I really admired, and again we don't get the full picture, is that she did find a way. She understood that she needed money to leave the community, which is often true in... We can only know her perspective. She felt oppressed. She felt she had no control over her life. We don't know the rest of the community but given from her perspective, that's how she felt. She knew money was going to be her answer to freedom and that was one of the things that attracted to me to the show. The ability to be able to support yourself. And she talks about that a lot in her family. That she wants her family to be able to be able to support each of themselves, even though it's very clear that right now, she's really the one supporting this entire huge operation. There's a lot of designer brands out there and I thought that was a very mixed message.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, I did kind of come to the conclusion and I'm making this up. I don't know if it's true. My gut feeling is these brands give her the clothing for free, because every single person in her family and in the show is decked out at all times and usually with their labels showing. And I'm wondering if that's because the clothing is given to her? Maybe coming from the magazine world, you have some insight into that, because I do feel like it was a mixed message. You had a lot of women empowerment messages, but then it was almost like they were so weighed down in consumerism. They go to Paris and all they're talking about is shopping, shopping, shopping and I was a little bit uncomfortable with that message.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I mean, I wish I had more insight into how she got the clothes for my magazine world, but I have no idea. I mean, there are always sponsorships and partnerships and I wouldn't be surprised if she negotiated some free clothes or rentals or something like that. But yeah, I mean the consumerism and the capitalism on display in the show is over the top, but I think that's pretty true of any glam fashion-y reality show. That's a part of the reason why people watch. I'm a huge Real Housewives fan and obviously I want to watch and see what Kyle Richards is wearing because it's always really fun. Okay, one thing that you said really struck me that I can't stop thinking about is there does seem to be a gap in how she got to where she is now. So-

Bobbi Rebell:
Had you heard of her before this?

Jessica Goodman:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Exactly! No.

Jessica Goodman:
I've been googling around and trying to find some information on her and basically her "origin story" seems to be that while she was living in what she felt to be an oppressed community, she knew she wanted to get out and she started selling life insurance to the people in her community without her husband knowing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How does that really happen? First of all.

Jessica Goodman:
I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, I love it. I support her. I think that's amazing. That's wonderful and innovative and brave, but anyway, go on.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. So that's how she said she got her nest egg to leave the community. Once she left the community, she says that she started a high heel company, which sounds great. Very cool. She was always into fashion and this is how she did it. How she wanted to become a business woman in that world. And I read an interview with her that was like, "How did you get financing?" And she said that she just kind of met people. She met someone in a doctor's office. She met someone on a flight to Hong Kong and they became her investors... And I just would love a little bit more information about how. Where Julia Haart came from and how was she was able to do this. It's obviously an incredible story and I just want more information about it.

Jessica Goodman:
Because then, once she had the shoe line, she sold it to La Perla and became the creative director there. She designed the thong outfit that Kendall Jenner wore to the Met Gala. That's a huge deal! She's very clearly good and successful. I just need some more information and I feel like... I just feel like she's not giving us the whole story on this show. Which is obvious because she's the one who produced it, like I said. But yeah, I mean this message of being able to start a business from nothing is incredibly powerful and important. I feel like with all of these... We hear about this kind of thing. This is the pull at your heartstrings story of I had nothing, now I own the world. I think what's really important about these stories when you're sharing them with young women is giving all the facts and making them really transparent so people can find ways to actually emulate that and do that for themselves. If you're watching this show looking for tips on how to start your own business, I don't think you're going to feel very equipped to do so after watching it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any favorite quotes from the show?

Jessica Goodman:
Okay, yes. I spoke about her daughter. Her second daughter, Miriam who... She's the one who goes to Stanford and she's building her own apps and she comes out as bisexual in the show and she's very cool and very free. And her mom says she's the reason for why they decided to leave the community really and she says, "People say think outside the box, but I don't even think the box exists." I just feel like she's such a cool mouthpiece for the younger generation on this show and that's just like a great little quote here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think she's awesome. So one of my favorite quotes was Julia. Julia Haart, our protagonist here saying, "I want you to never rely on anyone ever, not even me." And I didn't write down who she said that to, but I think that's really important as a-

Jessica Goodman:
Batsheva. She said it to Batsheva.

Bobbi Rebell:
To Batsheva. See, you are like a super fan of this show. Because, she does have... They're all her employees. Her children all do work for her and she's saying it's important that you establish yourself and that you are earning your money, whether you work for me or someone else and not be dependent on me as a parent. And that obviously is the sweet spot for me, writing my book about how to help our children be independent of us in a loving way and so that really hit home with me. Okay. Last little question about the show and then we're going to wrap up. Who's your favorite character and why?

Jessica Goodman:
I have two favorite character, "characters". Batsheva, just because I think she's the one who's challenging her family the most and who is challenging her mom and I found myself agreeing with her in a lot of situations. Like when Julia invites a woman from her Orthodox community to come to the city for a day of make-over and wisdom, Batsheva was right on the money when she was like, "Maybe this isn't a good idea." And the whole thing felt really exploitative to me and I feel like it did to Batsheva as well. And also Robert! Julia's best friend/employees/person who basically it seems to helm the ship at Elite. I loved him and I'm glad that they haven't really reduced him to just fun, gay sidekick character. They're giving him real storylines as well and I just think he's just a great, fun character on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I also had a tie and I agree with you. Robert was one of my favorites and even though he does seem to come out of reality TV central casting, he's also so good. I mean, he's amazing. I would be curious if he was in this role before the show, because he's just that good. He's so perfect that it's like, whoa. But look, they do say they've been working together forever and he does fit her personality as someone that would be her right-hand man, literally. So I mean-

Jessica Goodman:
Well, I did a little LinkedIn stalking and it seems like he worked with her before.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, good. And the other person that really grew on me and he seems like a minor character, it's Batsheva's husband, Ben. I just want to hug this man through the TV because he married into a certain idea of what his life was going to be. He's not her biological child that was sort of dragged out, which all of them were... Sort of voluntarily because she seems to be on good relations with her ex-husband which is also interesting. But okay. But he is just, he married this woman and then suddenly he's thrust into this whole different life and he is not set up for it. The kid is not ready for this. The first episode, they just say he's in real estate and then it comes out later the only house, the only apartment he's sold is theirs.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it was kind of not a nice dig for Julia to make. I thought that was wrong, because she did this to him. He is... I don't want to say he's a victim because he's not portrayed as a victim in any way and he seems like a fantastic person and he's really trying so hard to adjust to things that have happened to him. He's trying to find his way and be a good husband. He was told that he should have kids the earliest possible and now he's got a wife that wants to wear pants and not have a baby till she's 30. So he's really rolling with the punches and I just think he's amazing. So yay, Ben.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I could do a spin off of the two of them for sure.

Bobbi Rebell:
There might be a spinoff. I would not be surprised. Right?

Jessica Goodman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Final thoughts on the show.

Jessica Goodman:
So I still have a couple of episodes left and I'm really excited to keep going and just kind of finish it up. But I would also... If you're interested in the show and you're listening to this, I would recommend there's a great piece on Glamor. Glamour.com, about the kind of contradictions within the show and the backlash to it and explaining a lot of that stuff and I recommend that piece because it helped me think about it in a more critical way. But yeah, I... God, you know what? I'm probably going to read this woman's book too. So, yeah. I'm just interested. I'm just interested.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think it's so highly watchable and I also... For all the flaws that we talked about, I would say overall it's still a winner. I mean at a five stars, I'd still give it four and three quarter stars because while there are these inconsistencies, we don't know what was edited out. We don't know. I thought about if there's even legal things that happen behind the scenes in terms of what she can and cannot say, and it is glossy. It is definitely highly produced. But then again, it works for the show and I totally enjoyed it and I wish this whole group of people all the best success because they are risk-takers even by doing this show, even though they had control over it. And the book, I kind of hope it's not too much of a tell all. I hope that she doesn't reveal too much of her life in the name of building her persona because some things it's okay to keep private, Julia Haart. Even though we're big fans.

Jessica Goodman:
And I just want to shout out Batsheva's TikTok because I'm not even really a big fashion TikTok person and I found myself wasting a lot of time going through her very cute fashion TikToks with Ben. So highly recommend. They do-

Bobbi Rebell:
I haven't looked at it yet but I'm afraid to because it'll just... I'll never write my book.

Jessica Goodman:
No. It's a great procrastination tool.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We're going to check it out as soon as my deadline passes in a month or so. Okay. Let's just talk quickly about They'll Never Catch Us.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, yeah. So this is my new book, They'll never catch us. It is out July 27th. The date this episode drops, which is so exciting. And it is a young adult thriller about two sisters who are hyper competitive on a cross-country team in a small town in the Catskills, that is very dark and ominous and has a history of cold cases where young female runners go missing and they've never found the killer. And so the sister, the Steckler sisters, they are competing for the number one spot on their cross country team because their family can only afford to send one of them to college and the other one needs to get a scholarship. Their whole lives are wrapped up in cross country and everything changes when a new girl comes to town threatens to be better than both of them and take away the scholarship that one of them might get.

Jessica Goodman:
And when the new girl disappears, everyone starts to think that the Steckler sisters has something to do with her disappearance and they become the main suspects in the case. So it's a fun murder mystery that is about strength and desire and the power of teenage girls, which is what I love to write about. That's my sweet spot. And I think all my books also have a lot of themes about class distinctions, specifically within small communities and how power and money can kind of affect the way that young people think about the world and what their priorities are. So I'm excited. I'm excited for it to come out.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's coming out today. We can't wait to read it.

Follow Jessica!

• Instagram - @jessicagoodman

• Twitter - @jessgood

• Jessica’s website - https://www.goodmanjessica.com/

• Buy They Wish They Were Us

• Pre-Order They’ll Never Catch Us
  
  
  
  

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Jessica Goodman:
I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome my friends, to a new episode of our 2021 Financial Grownups Summer Watch Party series. During COVID, well I probably should have read more, but I actually did a lot of streaming, show watching and I became a little bit obsessed with the fact that there are a lot of shows out there that talk about money. Many of them totally undiscovered, and they have pretty good money lessons. So we're going to have a summer watch party highlighting some of my personal favorites and some new buzzworthy shows and of course the money tips that we learned from them. I am so excited to have my friend Jessica Goodman here with me for this episode. She is the author of two... Not one, but two best-selling books. They Wish They Were Us and the newly released... Actually it's coming out the day this episode drops, I believe. They'll Never Catch Us. Her books? So successful that she is no longer employed by Cosmos magazine as an editor where she spent many, many years. Hi Jessica.

Jessica Goodman:
Hi. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, so I also left out... Give us an update on the books because in addition to They'll Never Catch Us, which I'm holding up here even though no one can see it. But I'll hold it up just so you get the feeling of me holding it up. Your first book had all kinds of Hollywood stuff happening. Give us an update on that.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, absolutely. So my first book, They Wish They Were Us is a prep school murder mystery set in an exclusive school in Long Island. And yeah, it was optioned for TV, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey and it's with HBO Max in development right now. So we're hoping it gets made and seeing what's up, but it's been really fun to kind of see that process move along.

Bobbi Rebell:
So glam. Perfect for the show we're going to be talking about. We're going to get to They'll Never Catch Us after we talk about this week's must watch show. This is a new one. So this technically was not watched while I was under quarantine, but it was coming out and getting so much buzz that I decided to throw it in the mix. It is called My Unorthodox Life. I feel like this is almost the new Kardashian show. In that you've got all of these characters, they're this big family and they're sort of... I don't know if this is Kardashian-like or not, but they're super glam and they're sort of a fish out of water story. I don't know. Would you characterize it like that? What do you see? Tell us more about the premise.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, so the premise is that there's this woman named Julia Haart and she's in her forties and she's the CEO of Elite World Group, which is a modeling conglomerate. She's launching a fashion line. She's this very glamorous, seemingly free kind of woman. She's married to an Italian man who used to be her... She used to work with at La Perla. She has four kids, kind of teenagers and young adults. And the show kind of frames this as, this is this crazy kind of New York city family, but twist... She used to be Orthodox Jewish and live in a community in upstate New York called Monsey, which is known for being very insular and having lots of different groups and communities and sects of Orthodox Judaism living there.

Jessica Goodman:
I have some thoughts on the problematic framing of this narrative. That the fact that they kind of frame it as a twist is a little bit othering in a lot of ways, but her whole thing is that she's not a part of this community anymore. And her kids are involved with the community to varying degrees. Her youngest son is... I think he's either in late middle school or early high school, and he still lives up there with his father and is very much a part of the community. And her other kids have varying levels of faith in Judaism.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm kind of amazed that they all agreed to so enthusiastically be part of this show, but they really... I almost feel like they're prepped for it and they're ready and roaring to go, which seems a little jarring. I don't know. And the clothing. I mean, I don't even know where to begin with the styling and the wardrobe on this. I mean, it's over the top. I guess that's part of why I had this Kardashian feeling and I have not been a loyal viewer of the Kardashians. I've kind of watched a few episodes over the years so I'm not really necessarily qualified to say that. But it's pretty flashy.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, totally. And I feel like that's definitely on purpose because she's framing herself as a fashion mogul and she came into the fashion world having no experience in it and knowing nothing about it and yeah. The fashion and the glam and all of that really is such a part of the show. And also obviously I've been doing deep dive stalking of everybody who's on the show and her oldest daughter Batsheva, who's 27 or something. She's a full fledged fashion influencer. Has a million followers on TikToK. She was doing that before the show launched. So clearly, this is a family where fashion is a big part of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the show is a very deliberate and polished show. There's nothing accidental in this show. It is structured. So give me your take. I mean, I find this fascinating. I didn't binge all of it yet only because I've been blocked by other true obligations, but I'll probably finish the rest right after we're done taping this because it's so fascinating. What's your general takeaway from this? Just to begin with.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, totally. I mean, you told me we were going to talk about this show and I had heard about it a little bit and I was like, oh, I'll watch an episode and see what happens. Fast forward four hours, I'd watched basically the whole thing. I couldn't take my eyes away from it. I think it's extremely compelling television. But yeah, the whole thing is super contrived. It's very clearly... They decide what the storylines are going to be. There's nothing real about it. It's very much like The Hills in that way. Fake reality. And Julia is an executive producer on the show, just like the Kardashians are executive producers on their show. So you're getting the lifestyle and the perspective that she wants you to see and I think you have to really take that into consideration when you're viewing the show.

Jessica Goodman:
I grew up and I'm still a reformed Jewish person and I think what's most interesting to me is seeing the different levels of Judaism portrayed on the show. One of the daughters is basically... I don't know if she considers herself secular, but she is 20 years old and she eats treyf, like oysters and all those kind of stuff. And her older sister is still Orthodox and has a very contrived storyline with her husband about whether or not she's going to be wearing pants, when she's also wearing an off the shoulder shirt. The whole thing is kind of fake, but I'm interested in seeing these conversations play out within the family and how they accept one another's different parts of religion.

Jessica Goodman:
I think there are some really problematic moments in the show too. There's been a real big backlash against her from women in the Orthodox community who say that she portrays them... That Julia says that Orthodox women don't have free will. And a lot of Orthodox women are coming out and saying that's not true. We do have free will and this is how, and this is why. I'm not part of that community so I can't really speculate or comment on that. It's really interesting to watch it play out and to see what she... How she has reinvented herself. No matter what you think of her or the show, this woman reinvented herself.

Jessica Goodman:
And some of her history, there seemed to be some gaps in it. I would really love a real deep dive fact check on what she's been up to since she left the community. But again, like I said, I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to. Okay. So this is my big word vomit about the show, but that's what I think.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's all very valid. What drew me to the show, coming from my sort of perspective, was the money thing. And one of the things that I think is interesting is there is a missing link in how she sort of went... Because it hasn't been even a decade, I think, right? How did she go from having nothing? And they do make a point in the show that they don't... That the women certainly, and also the men to a large degree, are not educated in any formal way. We do have a storyline, for example-- this is a little bit of a spoiler-- that Batsheva's husband Ben, only has a high school education and therefore his career prospects are limited because that's all they do. They study Torah and they get a high school education and I presume the women have even less of an education.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing I really admired, and again we don't get the full picture, is that she did find a way. She understood that she needed money to leave the community, which is often true in... We can only know her perspective. She felt oppressed. She felt she had no control over her life. We don't know the rest of the community but given from her perspective, that's how she felt. She knew money was going to be her answer to freedom and that was one of the things that attracted to me to the show. The ability to be able to support yourself. And she talks about that a lot in her family. That she wants her family to be able to be able to support each of themselves, even though it's very clear that right now, she's really the one supporting this entire huge operation. There's a lot of designer brands out there and I thought that was a very mixed message.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, I did kind of come to the conclusion and I'm making this up. I don't know if it's true. My gut feeling is these brands give her the clothing for free, because every single person in her family and in the show is decked out at all times and usually with their labels showing. And I'm wondering if that's because the clothing is given to her? Maybe coming from the magazine world, you have some insight into that, because I do feel like it was a mixed message. You had a lot of women empowerment messages, but then it was almost like they were so weighed down in consumerism. They go to Paris and all they're talking about is shopping, shopping, shopping and I was a little bit uncomfortable with that message.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I mean, I wish I had more insight into how she got the clothes for my magazine world, but I have no idea. I mean, there are always sponsorships and partnerships and I wouldn't be surprised if she negotiated some free clothes or rentals or something like that. But yeah, I mean the consumerism and the capitalism on display in the show is over the top, but I think that's pretty true of any glam fashion-y reality show. That's a part of the reason why people watch. I'm a huge Real Housewives fan and obviously I want to watch and see what Kyle Richards is wearing because it's always really fun. Okay, one thing that you said really struck me that I can't stop thinking about is there does seem to be a gap in how she got to where she is now. So-

Bobbi Rebell:
Had you heard of her before this?

Jessica Goodman:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Exactly! No.

Jessica Goodman:
I've been googling around and trying to find some information on her and basically her "origin story" seems to be that while she was living in what she felt to be an oppressed community, she knew she wanted to get out and she started selling life insurance to the people in her community without her husband knowing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How does that really happen? First of all.

Jessica Goodman:
I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, I love it. I support her. I think that's amazing. That's wonderful and innovative and brave, but anyway, go on.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. So that's how she said she got her nest egg to leave the community. Once she left the community, she says that she started a high heel company, which sounds great. Very cool. She was always into fashion and this is how she did it. How she wanted to become a business woman in that world. And I read an interview with her that was like, "How did you get financing?" And she said that she just kind of met people. She met someone in a doctor's office. She met someone on a flight to Hong Kong and they became her investors... And I just would love a little bit more information about how. Where Julia Haart came from and how was she was able to do this. It's obviously an incredible story and I just want more information about it.

Jessica Goodman:
Because then, once she had the shoe line, she sold it to La Perla and became the creative director there. She designed the thong outfit that Kendall Jenner wore to the Met Gala. That's a huge deal! She's very clearly good and successful. I just need some more information and I feel like... I just feel like she's not giving us the whole story on this show. Which is obvious because she's the one who produced it, like I said. But yeah, I mean this message of being able to start a business from nothing is incredibly powerful and important. I feel like with all of these... We hear about this kind of thing. This is the pull at your heartstrings story of I had nothing, now I own the world. I think what's really important about these stories when you're sharing them with young women is giving all the facts and making them really transparent so people can find ways to actually emulate that and do that for themselves. If you're watching this show looking for tips on how to start your own business, I don't think you're going to feel very equipped to do so after watching it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any favorite quotes from the show?

Jessica Goodman:
Okay, yes. I spoke about her daughter. Her second daughter, Miriam who... She's the one who goes to Stanford and she's building her own apps and she comes out as bisexual in the show and she's very cool and very free. And her mom says she's the reason for why they decided to leave the community really and she says, "People say think outside the box, but I don't even think the box exists." I just feel like she's such a cool mouthpiece for the younger generation on this show and that's just like a great little quote here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think she's awesome. So one of my favorite quotes was Julia. Julia Haart, our protagonist here saying, "I want you to never rely on anyone ever, not even me." And I didn't write down who she said that to, but I think that's really important as a-

Jessica Goodman:
Batsheva. She said it to Batsheva.

Bobbi Rebell:
To Batsheva. See, you are like a super fan of this show. Because, she does have... They're all her employees. Her children all do work for her and she's saying it's important that you establish yourself and that you are earning your money, whether you work for me or someone else and not be dependent on me as a parent. And that obviously is the sweet spot for me, writing my book about how to help our children be independent of us in a loving way and so that really hit home with me. Okay. Last little question about the show and then we're going to wrap up. Who's your favorite character and why?

Jessica Goodman:
I have two favorite character, "characters". Batsheva, just because I think she's the one who's challenging her family the most and who is challenging her mom and I found myself agreeing with her in a lot of situations. Like when Julia invites a woman from her Orthodox community to come to the city for a day of make-over and wisdom, Batsheva was right on the money when she was like, "Maybe this isn't a good idea." And the whole thing felt really exploitative to me and I feel like it did to Batsheva as well. And also Robert! Julia's best friend/employees/person who basically it seems to helm the ship at Elite. I loved him and I'm glad that they haven't really reduced him to just fun, gay sidekick character. They're giving him real storylines as well and I just think he's just a great, fun character on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I also had a tie and I agree with you. Robert was one of my favorites and even though he does seem to come out of reality TV central casting, he's also so good. I mean, he's amazing. I would be curious if he was in this role before the show, because he's just that good. He's so perfect that it's like, whoa. But look, they do say they've been working together forever and he does fit her personality as someone that would be her right-hand man, literally. So I mean-

Jessica Goodman:
Well, I did a little LinkedIn stalking and it seems like he worked with her before.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, good. And the other person that really grew on me and he seems like a minor character, it's Batsheva's husband, Ben. I just want to hug this man through the TV because he married into a certain idea of what his life was going to be. He's not her biological child that was sort of dragged out, which all of them were... Sort of voluntarily because she seems to be on good relations with her ex-husband which is also interesting. But okay. But he is just, he married this woman and then suddenly he's thrust into this whole different life and he is not set up for it. The kid is not ready for this. The first episode, they just say he's in real estate and then it comes out later the only house, the only apartment he's sold is theirs.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it was kind of not a nice dig for Julia to make. I thought that was wrong, because she did this to him. He is... I don't want to say he's a victim because he's not portrayed as a victim in any way and he seems like a fantastic person and he's really trying so hard to adjust to things that have happened to him. He's trying to find his way and be a good husband. He was told that he should have kids the earliest possible and now he's got a wife that wants to wear pants and not have a baby till she's 30. So he's really rolling with the punches and I just think he's amazing. So yay, Ben.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I could do a spin off of the two of them for sure.

Bobbi Rebell:
There might be a spinoff. I would not be surprised. Right?

Jessica Goodman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Final thoughts on the show.

Jessica Goodman:
So I still have a couple of episodes left and I'm really excited to keep going and just kind of finish it up. But I would also... If you're interested in the show and you're listening to this, I would recommend there's a great piece on Glamor. Glamour.com, about the kind of contradictions within the show and the backlash to it and explaining a lot of that stuff and I recommend that piece because it helped me think about it in a more critical way. But yeah, I... God, you know what? I'm probably going to read this woman's book too. So, yeah. I'm just interested. I'm just interested.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think it's so highly watchable and I also... For all the flaws that we talked about, I would say overall it's still a winner. I mean at a five stars, I'd still give it four and three quarter stars because while there are these inconsistencies, we don't know what was edited out. We don't know. I thought about if there's even legal things that happen behind the scenes in terms of what she can and cannot say, and it is glossy. It is definitely highly produced. But then again, it works for the show and I totally enjoyed it and I wish this whole group of people all the best success because they are risk-takers even by doing this show, even though they had control over it. And the book, I kind of hope it's not too much of a tell all. I hope that she doesn't reveal too much of her life in the name of building her persona because some things it's okay to keep private, Julia Haart. Even though we're big fans.

Jessica Goodman:
And I just want to shout out Batsheva's TikTok because I'm not even really a big fashion TikTok person and I found myself wasting a lot of time going through her very cute fashion TikToks with Ben. So highly recommend. They do-

Bobbi Rebell:
I haven't looked at it yet but I'm afraid to because it'll just... I'll never write my book.

Jessica Goodman:
No. It's a great procrastination tool.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We're going to check it out as soon as my deadline passes in a month or so. Okay. Let's just talk quickly about They'll Never Catch Us.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, yeah. So this is my new book, They'll never catch us. It is out July 27th. The date this episode drops, which is so exciting. And it is a young adult thriller about two sisters who are hyper competitive on a cross-country team in a small town in the Catskills, that is very dark and ominous and has a history of cold cases where young female runners go missing and they've never found the killer. And so the sister, the Steckler sisters, they are competing for the number one spot on their cross country team because their family can only afford to send one of them to college and the other one needs to get a scholarship. Their whole lives are wrapped up in cross country and everything changes when a new girl comes to town threatens to be better than both of them and take away the scholarship that one of them might get.

Jessica Goodman:
And when the new girl disappears, everyone starts to think that the Steckler sisters has something to do with her disappearance and they become the main suspects in the case. So it's a fun murder mystery that is about strength and desire and the power of teenage girls, which is what I love to write about. That's my sweet spot. And I think all my books also have a lot of themes about class distinctions, specifically within small communities and how power and money can kind of affect the way that young people think about the world and what their priorities are. So I'm excited. I'm excited for it to come out.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's coming out today. We can't wait to read it... Another distraction. I love you Batsheva, but I'm going to read this before I check out your TikTok because I know that TikTok's going to be dangerous for me. Always so good to have you on. Where can people follow you on all the socials?

Jessica Goodman:
You can follow me on Instagram, @jessicagoodman and Twitter, @jessgood. And my website is goodmanjessica.com. So find me in any one of those places and thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for being on. Everyone, please make sure you are following the podcast on whatever platform you've listened to. That's new words because apparently subscriptions have a whole new meaning and this podcast is free for you. So come back next week, we're going to continue our Summer Watch series with another money show next week. See you then. Bye guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by [Steve Stewart 00:22:33]. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by [Ashley Wall 00:22:39]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media. @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Do you track your “Happy Spends” against your “Sad Spends”? Dr. Elizabeth Dunn of Happy Money will have you doing that and more with her money mental wellness tips. Don’t you feel better already?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn’s 5 Money Tips to achieve financial wellness

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I spend my day-to-day work life thinking about what makes people happy and how we can make people happier. In particular, I've been really interested in how we can harness money as a tool to increase our happiness. I think the sort of overarching idea that I've been arguing throughout my career is that how much money we have actually matters less than what it is we do with it. So making more careful choices around not just how we invest our money, how we save our money-- which we think so much about-- but also how we spend our money. Can we spend it in ways that genuinely make us happier, rather than just sort of squandering it on the things that daily life tempts us with? All the things we see in sort of advertisements, things we see other people buying. Instead, can we chart our own path and find the kinds of purchases that really fill us with happiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is such a great concept and one that I should mention you do cover in your book, Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending. All right, let's get to your five tips for financial wellness. Now some of these might sound familiar, but the way that you present them is going to really resonate I think, with our audience, because you also have the data to back them up and I think that's going to really motivate a lot of us to put these into action in our lives. Okay. The first one is normalize talking about money, which we hear a lot, but you've got a different spin on it.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. This really comes from our research at Happy Money where we've seen that people in debt especially really want a chance to hear from other people that have been through that journey too. They want to know how did you get through this? How did you pay off your debt? What challenges did you overcome? We're used to talking about money maybe on the brighter side of investments and savings and so forth, but I think it's really important that we start sharing our financial lows along with our financial highs just to normalize talking about money and just taking away some of the stigma that surrounds debt. We really encourage people to talk about and think about what it is that a rich life means to them. So I would argue that rich really is not about what's in your bank account. It's about what makes you happy and fulfilled in meaningful and sustainable ways. One thing we see is that over and above how much income people earn, it really matters how they think about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Your second money tip is to treat money as a tool, but again, you are reframing the conversation here.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. So I think very often, people treat money as an end in itself. So much of financial planning, for example, surrounds how to get more money. So if we shift the conversation to be about how to get more happiness, then we start thinking of money not as an end in itself, but as a tool, kind of pathway for getting to happiness. We do know that people who have more money tend to be happier than those who have less, but this is mainly because those people with more money tend to be more able to meet their expenses and stay out of debt. In reality, the amount of money that you have really matters less than what you do with it and the key here is figuring out how to use money as a tool to boost your mental health and happiness.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This holds true whether you have a little money or a lot of money. In some of our recent data, we're seeing just how consistently these ideas hold up across the whole spectrum of income. For example, we know from research that people tend to get more satisfaction from buying time. For example, buying some help with childcare or a meal delivery service can really pay dividends in terms of life satisfaction. And from our latest data from Happy Money, we're actually seeing that this relationship holds true again, even for people who are living paycheck to paycheck, kind of struggling to make ends meet.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
It's quite a consistent principal and even more consistent, we see that people who give, who use their money to benefit others, tend to experience greater happiness. This is what we see, remarkably, even for people below the poverty line. This relationship holds true all the way across the income spectrum. At the end of the day, that's really why we created Happy Money, which is to help people use their money in ways that support their wellbeing and happiness and also allow them to build healthier and more mindful habits more broadly around their finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because some of the examples you just gave like ordering in dinner are things that we generally think of as splurges and things that we can cut out when we're trying to get control of our budgets, but we shouldn't maybe make those assumptions.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's exactly right. In our research, we see that many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress, a lot of time stress... Buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has this changed during the pandemic? Do you have any data on that? I'm curious.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. We're just beginning to fully explore this question of how these principles might've been altered through the pandemic. But I think a particularly interesting one to focus on at this stage of the pandemic is giving, because we know that many people did not give as much money as they usually would to charity during the pandemic. Many charities are really hurting right now, and so as we kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel and maybe experience some gratitude over having made it this far and still being alive, still kind of being okay. I think this is a wonderful time to pay it forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's move on to the third one. I think this is my favorite one. Track your happy spends versus sad spends.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. So I always tell people to track what you spend and how it makes you feel. So people are used to tracking their spending to try to restrain their spending or know how much they've got, but I say add on how it makes you feel so you can actually decide what's worth it to you and what's not. So really pay attention to how these purchases affect your mood and then you can start to identify what I call happy spends, these spends that really make you happy. And sad spends, maybe things that used to make you happy but aren't really paying off in terms of your happiness anymore.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This is going to help you ask yourself what actually brings you real joy and what do you regret by the next day? I would argue that when you shift your spending toward what makes you truly happy... That might be paying off debt, or savoring a treat, helping a friend donating to charity. That can enable you to make better, happier decisions around your own wellbeing and it's also a great opportunity to start thinking about investing in your future self. What are the purchases that make you happy when you first acquire them, but also still continue to provide happiness dividends going forward. I think that's a really fascinating issue. Helping people gain better self insight into what makes them happy starts with just paying attention in the moment to what's providing you joy and what's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
I was so glad to see this next one on the list because it really resonates with so many of us coming out of this pandemic. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis for me on celebrate along the way, because we really don't know what's going to happen.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. I mean, this experience of the past year has really made me appreciate the value of just celebrating what's good in the moment. So, I recommend when people are tackling a big financial challenge or big life challenge, start with small manageable changes. Achievable changes. And then do take the time to celebrate those little milestones along the way. So it isn't necessarily about just achieving your final goal and that's the only time you should celebrate. Celebrate each piece of it. So break your big goals into more bite sized pieces and these small steps are going to be a lot easier to form into sticky sorts of habits. Just to give some examples, you could start with little changes like saving $10 a week, or maybe giving $15 to a charitable organization that needs your support, or try putting an extra $50 a month toward your credit card debt.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
These are potentially more achievable changes that over time can actually have a really big impact on your overall happiness. So what we've seen in our data at Happy Money is that even building up a little bit of savings can go a long way in terms of people's life satisfaction. So we see that people with just $400 in emergency savings reported over 13% higher levels of life satisfaction compared to people who didn't have that cushion.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're removing that anxiety, right?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I think that's a huge part of it. So we see that when people have savings, it kind of acts as this cushion that protects them from some of the shocks of unexpected events in daily life and can also just reassure people that they're going to be a little bit insulated. I think that's one of the big lessons for me from the pandemic because we just don't know what the future holds. Save up some money now so you're ready for whatever surprises the future might have in store.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this last one, I think, is just so essential and I hope that people take the time and really take it seriously. And that is to take the time to deal with your feelings around money... Because we often get so caught up in life's day-to-day, we never stop and kind of examine how we're approaching money.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. And I think this is probably the most important tip. That we focus so much on the sort of objective financial challenges surrounding money itself but we have to also deal with the feelings that are hovering around those challenges. So thinking about this, we decided last year to introduce a new money, mindfulness and stress reduction program that we call Peace. Like peace and love. This free course is really neat because it incorporates cognitive behavioral therapy and psychology to help people understand and reduce the impact that financial stress is having on their lives. The fact that it's completely free was super important to me. This is something we are giving away to just help people deal with the financial stress that the past year has created.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
What we did was really to try to think about how could busy people fit this into their lives? As somebody who's got a full-time job and a kid I thought, 'Could I make this work even for me?' Each exercise is really broken down into these small digestible bites and everything is personalized to the individual and really designed to build skills for addressing stress levels. And going beyond just combating stress, we also wanted to think about the positive sides. So we've got a whole week that's devoted to just helping people promote more positive thoughts and actions. To learn how to amplify their positive emotions and get more joy out of the tiny pleasures of daily life like sitting in the sunshine or eating a piece of chocolate.

Follow Dr. Elizabeth Dunn!

• Instagram - @happymoney

• Twitter - @DunnHappyLab

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/happy-money/

• Website - https://happymoney.com/company/

• Happy Money’s FREE course - Peace - https://peace.happymoney.com/peace
  
  
  
  

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grown-up for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
In our research, we see that people, many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress-- a lot of time stress-- buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being grown up is hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends! I hope everyone is having fun this summer and feeling healthy and most of all, feeling happier these days. A lot of things affect our moods. I know for me, I always feel better when the weather is good and there is scientific evidence that for some people, including me, sunshine and warmth really does have an impact on our moods. There's also evidence that what's going on with our money can have a measurable impact, a scientifically measurable impact on our mood and yes, our happiness. So, okay. For most of us, it doesn't take a scientific survey or research or whatever to tell us that if we're worried about money, we're not happy. But stick with me friends, because if we understand the science, we can then take it to the next level and implement real strategies to boost our financial wellness.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for example, a lot of the time, things like meal delivery plans are framed as something that maybe we should feel a little guilty about. We see it as a splurge, a luxury, and certainly discretionary when we're having budgeting discussions. But here's the thing. Apparently, things that buy us time are scientifically proven to be good for our mental health and could actually be one of the best uses of our money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I found the perfect guest to tell us more about all of that and also to teach us how we can incorporate good money habits that lead to happiness into our lives. Dr. Elizabeth Dunn is a professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of British Columbia and the Chief Science Officer at Happy Money, a Los Angeles based FinTech company. Now Dunn is also the author of Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending which she co authored with Michael Norton of Harvard Business School. Dr. Dunn conducts experimental research on happiness, exploring how people can optimize their use of time, money and technology to promote well-being. Her TED 2019 Talk on generosity and happiness, has been viewed over 3 million times and was selected by TED as one of the top 10 Talks of that year 2019. She is amazing and we are in for a treat. Here is Dr. Elizabeth Dunn. Dr. Elizabeth Dunn, you are a financial grownup. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, okay. Before we get to... You're going to be talking about five tips for financial wellness and improving our mental health, especially as it relates to money. I have to ask you, you call yourself a happiness researcher. Tell us about that.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Well, I spend my day-to-day work life thinking about what makes people happy and how we can make people happier. In particular, I've been really interested in how we can harness money as a tool to increase our happiness. I think the sort of overarching idea that I've been arguing throughout my career is that how much money we have actually matters less than what it is we do with it. So making more careful choices around not just how we invest our money, how we save our money-- which we think so much about-- but also how we spend our money. Can we spend it in ways that genuinely make us happier, rather than just sort of squandering it on the things that daily life tempts us with? All the things we see in sort of advertisements, things we see other people buying. Instead, can we chart our own path and find the kinds of purchases that really fill us with happiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is such a great concept and one that I should mention you do cover in your book, Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending. All right, let's get to your five tips for financial wellness. Now some of these might sound familiar, but the way that you present them is going to really resonate I think, with our audience, because you also have the data to back them up and I think that's going to really motivate a lot of us to put these into action in our lives. Okay. The first one is normalize talking about money, which we hear a lot, but you've got a different spin on it.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. This really comes from our research at Happy Money where we've seen that people in debt especially really want a chance to hear from other people that have been through that journey too. They want to know how did you get through this? How did you pay off your debt? What challenges did you overcome? We're used to talking about money maybe on the brighter side of investments and savings and so forth, but I think it's really important that we start sharing our financial lows along with our financial highs just to normalize talking about money and just taking away some of the stigma that surrounds debt. We really encourage people to talk about and think about what it is that a rich life means to them. So I would argue that rich really is not about what's in your bank account. It's about what makes you happy and fulfilled in meaningful and sustainable ways. One thing we see is that over and above how much income people earn, it really matters how they think about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Your second money tip is to treat money as a tool, but again, you are reframing the conversation here.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. So I think very often, people treat money as an end in itself. So much of financial planning, for example, surrounds how to get more money. So if we shift the conversation to be about how to get more happiness, then we start thinking of money not as an end in itself, but as a tool, kind of pathway for getting to happiness. We do know that people who have more money tend to be happier than those who have less, but this is mainly because those people with more money tend to be more able to meet their expenses and stay out of debt. In reality, the amount of money that you have really matters less than what you do with it and the key here is figuring out how to use money as a tool to boost your mental health and happiness.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This holds true whether you have a little money or a lot of money. In some of our recent data, we're seeing just how consistently these ideas hold up across the whole spectrum of income. For example, we know from research that people tend to get more satisfaction from buying time. For example, buying some help with childcare or a meal delivery service can really pay dividends in terms of life satisfaction. And from our latest data from Happy Money, we're actually seeing that this relationship holds true again, even for people who are living paycheck to paycheck, kind of struggling to make ends meet.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
It's quite a consistent principal and even more consistent, we see that people who give, who use their money to benefit others, tend to experience greater happiness. This is what we see, remarkably, even for people below the poverty line. This relationship holds true all the way across the income spectrum. At the end of the day, that's really why we created Happy Money, which is to help people use their money in ways that support their wellbeing and happiness and also allow them to build healthier and more mindful habits more broadly around their finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because some of the examples you just gave like ordering in dinner are things that we generally think of as splurges and things that we can cut out when we're trying to get control of our budgets, but we shouldn't maybe make those assumptions.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's exactly right. In our research, we see that many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress, a lot of time stress... Buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has this changed during the pandemic? Do you have any data on that? I'm curious.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. We're just beginning to fully explore this question of how these principles might've been altered through the pandemic. But I think a particularly interesting one to focus on at this stage of the pandemic is giving, because we know that many people did not give as much money as they usually would to charity during the pandemic. Many charities are really hurting right now, and so as we kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel and maybe experience some gratitude over having made it this far and still being alive, still kind of being okay. I think this is a wonderful time to pay it forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's move on to the third one. I think this is my favorite one. Track your happy spends versus sad spends.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. So I always tell people to track what you spend and how it makes you feel. So people are used to tracking their spending to try to restrain their spending or know how much they've got, but I say add on how it makes you feel so you can actually decide what's worth it to you and what's not. So really pay attention to how these purchases affect your mood and then you can start to identify what I call happy spends, these spends that really make you happy. And sad spends, maybe things that used to make you happy but aren't really paying off in terms of your happiness anymore.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This is going to help you ask yourself what actually brings you real joy and what do you regret by the next day? I would argue that when you shift your spending toward what makes you truly happy... That might be paying off debt, or savoring a treat, helping a friend donating to charity. That can enable you to make better, happier decisions around your own wellbeing and it's also a great opportunity to start thinking about investing in your future self. What are the purchases that make you happy when you first acquire them, but also still continue to provide happiness dividends going forward. I think that's a really fascinating issue. Helping people gain better self insight into what makes them happy starts with just paying attention in the moment to what's providing you joy and what's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
I was so glad to see this next one on the list because it really resonates with so many of us coming out of this pandemic. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis for me on celebrate along the way, because we really don't know what's going to happen.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. I mean, this experience of the past year has really made me appreciate the value of just celebrating what's good in the moment. So, I recommend when people are tackling a big financial challenge or big life challenge, start with small manageable changes. Achievable changes. And then do take the time to celebrate those little milestones along the way. So it isn't necessarily about just achieving your final goal and that's the only time you should celebrate. Celebrate each piece of it. So break your big goals into more bite sized pieces and these small steps are going to be a lot easier to form into sticky sorts of habits. Just to give some examples, you could start with little changes like saving $10 a week, or maybe giving $15 to a charitable organization that needs your support, or try putting an extra $50 a month toward your credit card debt.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
These are potentially more achievable changes that over time can actually have a really big impact on your overall happiness. So what we've seen in our data at Happy Money is that even building up a little bit of savings can go a long way in terms of people's life satisfaction. So we see that people with just $400 in emergency savings reported over 13% higher levels of life satisfaction compared to people who didn't have that cushion.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're removing that anxiety, right?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I think that's a huge part of it. So we see that when people have savings, it kind of acts as this cushion that protects them from some of the shocks of unexpected events in daily life and can also just reassure people that they're going to be a little bit insulated. I think that's one of the big lessons for me from the pandemic because we just don't know what the future holds. Save up some money now so you're ready for whatever surprises the future might have in store.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this last one, I think, is just so essential and I hope that people take the time and really take it seriously. And that is to take the time to deal with your feelings around money... Because we often get so caught up in life's day-to-day, we never stop and kind of examine how we're approaching money.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. And I think this is probably the most important tip. That we focus so much on the sort of objective financial challenges surrounding money itself but we have to also deal with the feelings that are hovering around those challenges. So thinking about this, we decided last year to introduce a new money, mindfulness and stress reduction program that we call Peace. Like peace and love. This free course is really neat because it incorporates cognitive behavioral therapy and psychology to help people understand and reduce the impact that financial stress is having on their lives. The fact that it's completely free was super important to me. This is something we are giving away to just help people deal with the financial stress that the past year has created.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
What we did was really to try to think about how could busy people fit this into their lives? As somebody who's got a full-time job and a kid I thought, 'Could I make this work even for me?' Each exercise is really broken down into these small digestible bites and everything is personalized to the individual and really designed to build skills for addressing stress levels. And going beyond just combating stress, we also wanted to think about the positive sides. So we've got a whole week that's devoted to just helping people promote more positive thoughts and actions. To learn how to amplify their positive emotions and get more joy out of the tiny pleasures of daily life like sitting in the sunshine or eating a piece of chocolate.

Bobbi Rebell:
We so needed all of these reminders. Where can people follow up with you and then follow you on all the socials?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Well, my number one tip would be to go over to happymoney.com\peace. There they can find more about our Peace program, this free six week program to help people decrease their stress levels. They can follow me on Twitter. I'm @DunnHappyLab. I would also just suggest checking out Happy Money more broadly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you feeling happier? Let's do a quick review of some of the concepts here. Okay. First of all, we want to make sure that we actually talk about money with other people. Not to other people by the way, with other people. And it doesn't mean revealing your personal data. It's more like finding comfort in the discussions and taking the stress out of mutual money decisions. So for example, if you make plans with friends to go out, think carefully not just about making sure the place that you go fits your budget, but also fits their budget. So one way to do this is to say that you're going to take control and you'll plan the event or the dining out or whatever you're doing, but give them a few choices. Make sure they're at kind of different price points and point that out to them and maybe in a casual way, be like, "We could splurge and do this, or we could be more budget friendly and do this," or somewhere in between. And you can gauge the reaction from that. It takes away the awkwardness.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the fact that Dr. Dunn talks about treating money as a tool, but not as an end in and of itself. So let's focus on how to get more happiness and how money can get us there. Letting go of the guilt when you buy time to boost happiness. So yeah, hire that babysitter and go on date night. I didn't do it a lot, but maybe I should have. All right track how you spend and how it makes you feel. This is going to help you identify happy spends versus sad spends. I love the way she puts that. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis on celebrating the milestones along the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
And finally, take the time to deal with your feelings about money. By the way, if you're looking for more info about happiness, definitely check out my recent episode with Meaghan Murphy, where we talk about specific ways to be happier and make sure to also read Meaghan's book, Your Fully Charged Life, which is a great summer beach read. You'll love the cover by the way, it's so... The cover itself makes you happy.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you enjoy this episode, I would love your help. Make sure you are following it on the platform of your choice and make sure you share it with friends. One easy way to do that is just take a screenshot and post it on your social media and of course, please tag me so I can thank you and I can also share it as well. Growing the show is really hard and your help means the world to me. On Instagram, by the way, I'm @bobbirebell1. B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L and then the number one. I highly recommend Dr. Dunn's free Peace course. So go to our show notes at bobbirebell.com under podcast for details. I also provide summaries and full transcripts of the show in the show notes. So please definitely use that resource. It's there for you. It's also free. And of course, we are so thankful and so happy that Dr. Elizabeth Dunn was able to join us and help us all be happy financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by [Steve Stewart 00:18:04]. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by [Ashley Wall 00:18:09]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts . Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Jesse Mecham, found of You Need a Budget joins us with a fantastic list of ways we can be a lot less stressed out about money, communicate better about money with out loved ones, and in the end feel and be more in control of our finances. 

Jesse’s Money Tips

Bobbi Rebell:
You are the founder, CEO, and creator, creative mind, I should say, behind You Need a Budget, affectionately known by many as YNAB. Congratulations on all the success of this product, and really, it's more than a product. It's really a whole suite of tools to help grownups.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're focused on anyone that thinks at some moment in time, "I think I might need a budget," and then we try and convince them that a budget is fun and useful and productive. Then we just teach them kind of a new way of thinking about their money and have them go on their way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the backstory of this really started with you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. I was the first one to realize that I needed a budget, at least that I knew, and my very new wife and I, we were both just newlyweds, broke, both in school. We wanted to get through school. We wanted to do it without taking on any debt, and we weren't making a lot of money at all. So I just thought, "Well, we need to watch this carefully." So I built this little spreadsheet for just me and my wife, Julie. A year later, it had done a lot of heavy lifting for us. We were on the same page. We were saving money.

Jesse Mecham:
Then this little baby came along, and our two big goals, we didn't want to borrow any money for school and we wanted Julie to be able to step out of the workforce and just focus on this baby, and she was the breadwinner at that time. I was still mainly focused on school. So the whole impetus was like, "Well, could we figure out some way to just kind of close that gap?" That was where I thought, "Well, maybe other people would want to use this spreadsheet that Julie and I have used." So we launched it and iterated for the next 17 years, and here we are.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of people are working from home, but they're thinking or they're being told that they're going to come back in some form. So much is up in the air. Give us some money tips for managing this time in our lives.

Jesse Mecham:
Structure. That is the word. You want to build structure in. It's not so you can be uber super productive, right? We're not saying, "Oh, now you can be Superwoman because you've got work right there. You can go sit over there and just start plugging away." Not that at all. It's actually structure to be able to stop working and find time to close things down. So anything you can do, if it's a morning routine and a shutdown routine, our team swears by that, if you have the luxury of finding a separate space with maybe a door that you can close, that's excellent. Headphones that you can pop on and mute things, that's excellent. Anything where you can create structure around your work, but most importantly it's so you can shut things down. We saw a lot of burnout from 2020, not because ... Well, I mean, yeah, because of the pandemic, but because people didn't know how to not be at work when work had come home.

Bobbi Rebell:
All the rules changed when the pandemic hit. It became kind of okay to have kids in the background, but at a certain point, there is a productivity cost. So give us some money tips for parents balancing work and family, especially in this transitional time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're promoters of remote work, and it's been kind of unfair for remote work to have the pandemic come along with the experiment, because what you were dealing with, it's like, "Oh, we don't like working from home because my kids are here." I'm like, "Well, they won't always be there. They'll probably be back in school, and it'll feel different," or suddenly someone's having to just on a whim work from their kitchen table. That's not ideal for basically most everyone. I say most because I do know one person that loves the chaos, and he works, codes right in that. But he is the exception.

Jesse Mecham:
So we don't want to combine our experience of working from home with the fact that we had all these other dynamics with the pandemic, number one, and maybe only, because you'd start here and then see what happened. You've got to have conversations with your spouse. You're probably both working, and you kind of have to say, "Okay, how do we divide and conquer this situation?" But Julie and I, when I used to work in our home, we had to have just straightforward conversations. I would say, "Hey, I'm going to go down." It's like I'm gone, just gone, and she was clear on that. Then she also needed to know from me, "Hey, are you going to come up for lunch? Should I eat without you?" She didn't want to just miss out on something. But it was a little bit of a burden for her if I wasn't very communicative on what my schedule looked like. She's like, "Oh, should I wait around, or should I take off with the kids and go somewhere?"

Jesse Mecham:
So just overly communicating as far as the boundaries go has been really helpful, but you have to recognize you're always going to iterate on this. Everything's changing. Life will change. The kids will get a little older, and they can understand things like, "Hey, don't come in when the door's closed." I lock my door here when I'm doing something like this. It's recording where I'll hear Faye, my little five-year-old, run across the garage floor, and I'll hear her coming. She knows if the door's locked, that means don't knock. That means just give Dad a little bit of time, and I can pop out at some point. But you've got to communicate those boundaries like, "Hey, this is real. I'm really at work."

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's an area that is ripe for improvement in my home, for sure.

Jesse Mecham:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So okay. So your product is YNAB, and I'm sure some people are super fans and some people give you the eye roll. Part of it is that there's a perception that budgets are all about being restrictive. I'd like you to share an experience you had with your wife when you had a certain amount budgeted for groceries, but it wasn't working for her because it wasn't about the money.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, it's almost nothing is ever really about just the money. There's always something at least a few layers deep, and in this instance, I regret to say that it was a 10-year evolution of my learning on this and Julie also learning it as well. But for the most part, when we were first early on married and I was not even working just on YNAB, I had a real job and stuff, I mean, I was swamped doing that, and she was swamped doing these little kids. So we were both pretty swamped. I do still the heavy lifting of the budgeting as far as running the software and making sure everything's reconciled, and then she comes over and I'm like, "Hey, I'm ready for you." She comes over and she looks at it all, and we make sure we're on the same page.

Jesse Mecham:
That was always how it worked, and one of those categories in there was the groceries category. Our third rule of budgeting is to roll with the punches, meaning you can overspend. You just adjust. It's flexible. So every month, we would overspend in groceries, and then literally 10 years in, one day ... So this would mean we had four kids, probably, at the time. I was like ... Same old conversation. It was like a light bulb went off for Julie or something where she's like, "For me, a successful grocery trip doesn't mean I'm under budget. It means that the kids don't meltdown. It means that it's just smooth. It means we're in and out. That's success."

Jesse Mecham:
I was trying to have the old school Julie, when we were first married and she knew the price of every brand of can of corn. But over time, we had evolved, and she didn't have the brain space for it, nor should she have. So it was her recognizing the value that she was placing was on the experience, not on just, "Oh, look how little we spent." Way back when we were first married, it was vital that we spent so little because it was so tight. So I bumped our budget up quite a bit, and we haven't overspent since. That was a big lesson for me. There's usually something behind the scenes when we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and you're speaking to something that hits home for so many of our grownup listeners, that it is an evolution as you go through the different stages of being a grownup. At the early times, when you made that budget initially and the decision about how much money you would have for groceries, she was in a position where it made sense with her time and her attention to be looking at every little price. There sometimes is a time in life when the price within that budget is not the most important thing. It might be the time, that it's not worth her time, resources, especially now, as you have seven children, to know the price of corn or whatever it may be. So I think it's really important that financial grownups understand that things change and that's okay. It's important to be able to adjust things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're a big believer in not having debt. Obviously, you say it's not inevitable, but there are a lot of people that point out that debt can be used for good, like education. You were able to avoid debt for your education. Tell us about that, and give us some tips about avoiding debt, especially for people that are looking at student debt, credit card debt, what have you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. The student debt, I'll kind of set aside for just a moment. Credit card debt, for the most part, at least as it's reported, you see a lot of people say, "The worst situations are someone declares bankruptcy." They'll say, "A lot of the time, it's a medical debt that will kind of tip the scales," but we don't recognize all of the little debts that come along that kind of pile up. Then it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. This final one is a medical bill or something a little bit larger than is the norm. Most people, it's kind of death by a thousand cuts with that credit card balance. So it goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way. It goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way.

Jesse Mecham:
It's really because they're making spending decisions now, not considering future expenses that are going to happen, that are very much going to happen. The car will need to be repaired at some point or an appliance will need to be replaced. So when these abnormal kind of ... Someone will say, "Oh, it's this one-off thing. This isn't a normal month, but we had this one-off kind of 'Ah' experience. I just had a water heater go out. Well, just the pipe for it, where it started shooting a little stream of water in your face if you walked by. We were like, 'Well, we've got to get that fixed.'" That just happens. So that's all real, and there is no such thing as a normal month. So every time we see a new expense pop up, we're like, "Oh, that's abnormal. That's not normally what happens. So I'll just put it on this card because it's a one-off." You find out that that abnormal stuff happens all the time. So we're always kind of telling ourselves that story, and that story isn't true.

Jesse Mecham:
So when we get to our second rule, we are embracing those true expenses, we want people to be able to look ahead to those larger, less frequent expenses that surprise them and break them up into monthly amounts and start saving up for the car repair, the appliance repair, or the vacation, kids' summer camp or whatever it may be, not always just bad things. Then when they're choosing to spend money in the moment, they're considering the future as well. So that thinking shift, and I should say I'm not talking about people that are truly in dire straights. They know how to stretch. I mean, you talk about financial grownups, financial tips, they know how to stretch a dollar in ways that would just blow our minds. So I'm talking about people that make good money. They don't have good information, and so they're just not choosing in the moment based on information that's fit to really give them the answer they need. That's how we slowly get into the credit card debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can you get that information?

Jesse Mecham:
You need to stop looking at your checking account balance as the end all, be all point of information. Say, "Well, how much money do I have? Can I go out to sushi, or are we going to get some cheap pizza? Can I do this? Can I buy these shoes that I just saw or not?" People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Jesse Mecham:
So instead, we want them to follow our first rule. You take that bank balance, you break it up into jobs, and you say, "This month" ... Say we have $1,000. "400 of that is for groceries for the next little while. The 200 of it is for this thing. 100 of it is for a car repair that I know will happen, but I don't know when and I don't know how much, but 100 bucks would be better than zero. I'm going to set that aside this month." You just start breaking that pile of money down. 50 bucks will be for sushi. Then you live according to that plan.

Jesse Mecham:
When your friend says, "Hey, we should go get some sushi," you look at your phone, and instead of seeing that you have $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, yeah, sushi, slam dunk" or you see $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, should I? I don't know," you still don't know, still stressful, you look at the sushi category and you're like, "Oh, I've got 50 bucks. I'm sitting pretty. Let's go do sushi," or you see that your eating out category is $2 and you're like, "You want to just come over? I'll make you some tea or something." But you're not choosing something now without considering all of those future obligations that are going to hit you. That's the key.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to get through a couple other tips we have prepared for our listeners. You talk a lot about embracing your true expenses, and I feel like you were alluding to that in the last answer. What does it mean to embrace your true expenses?

Jesse Mecham:
You have to recognize that expenses are not even. They're not steady. They're like, I don't know, a really unhealthy EKG, maybe, where it's just like, "Boom, here's a big surprise. Boom, here's a big surprise." You always think, "Oh, that's the exception." It's not. It's real. Christmas comes every single year. So if you celebrate Christmas, if you do the gift thing, then you'd say, "Well, how much do we want to spend on that? Maybe it's $600." So you set aside 50 bucks a month. For all of 2021, you're setting aside 50 bucks a month, and then when Christmas comes, you have $600. Instead of flipping it around and starting to say, "Oh, well, I don't have any money, so I'll just put it on a card and then I'll pay that down," think about it this way, Bobbi. It's always you and future you that are sitting there with the pile of money. Future you needs to have a voice at the table.

Jesse Mecham:
If you think about the debt situation that you asked me about earlier, when you say someone's like, "Oh, we'll put that on a payment plan. We'll put this on a payment plan. That's the name of the game," that person, that company is thinking about future them. They're like, "Oh, man, it'd be great if you'd finance this car. Absolutely. It'd be great for us." They're totally thinking about future them, future quarterly earnings things for shareholders, future bank balance. I mean, they're all over the future. Then you have the person that signs it away saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that note for this car." They're not thinking about the future. I'm trying to flip that around. I'm trying to have people think about their future and position themselves to be future-oriented, where then they're making decisions with both of you in mind, future Bobbi, present Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and it's hard, because the truth is one of the things that worries a lot of us right now is that things like you talk about a car, car loans are getting longer and longer in term to make the payments look lower, but ultimately, you're paying more, and it's over your head for a very long time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're orienting where they know. Well, don't even look at the repo situation. I mean, how many times people will get cars repossessed, and the same car will get repossessed five times. There is someone making money in that scenario, and it's not the person driving the car. So that seven-year note that you see on cars now, they used to be three, then five. Now they're seven. All that is is an evolution of the financing of that GM, Ford. Every car company makes most of their money, most of their profits from the financing side of this, not from the manufacture of the car. They're putting it out to seven years because they know that future Toyota, future Honda, no knock on any of the companies, but they are future- and profit-oriented, and people that are buying the car are now-oriented.

Jesse Mecham:
That's where we have to just try and get that shift to happen. So you start paying yourself a car payment, saving up cash for it over time. It might mean that you buy a car that's beneath you for a little while, but then you trade up over time and you start paying cash for that. You get out of that car payment trap. It's not a given.

Bobbi Rebell:
Or you don't trade up. A lot of really wealthy people drive really crummy cars.

Jesse Mecham:
It is absolutely. Yeah. They're hiding in plain sight.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. One final tip. What does it mean to age your money?

Jesse Mecham:
So we're essentially talking about if you were to earn a dollar today that it would be 30 to 60 days before you actually spent that dollar. So when a dollar enters your system, the clock starts ticking, and that dollar starts getting older and older and older. Right now, most people that are living paycheck to paycheck, they are spending dollars. I mean, they have a pile of bills just waiting for money to land, and we want to flip that around. We want to have a pile of money where bills come and land and you're like, "Oh, okay, I've got the money here set aside."

Jesse Mecham:
If you follow our first three rules, which we talk about ad nauseum, if you follow our first three rules, that fourth rule where you start to spend money that's a little older, a little older, a little older, it almost just happens automatically. It's a way to step back from the financial edge. You sleep better. You can talk more effectively about money with your partner because the stress levels are much lower. You make better decisions because of those stress levels being lower. You probably live longer because your stress levels are lower.

Jesse Mecham:
That's the aging your money concept. Spend money that is old. When you think about swiping a card, you actually spend money that ... Well, the metaphor breaks down, but it hasn't even been born yet. You haven't even earned it yet. The shift that we're seeing where companies are paying people for that day, for that shift, and they think that's going to help people break the paycheck to paycheck cycle, that's not going to do it. We're just pushing that can down the road. We have to have people start to orient themselves around thinking a little further ahead.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the way that you are reframing this and the different perspectives that you're giving, because I'm sitting here listening, and my mind is turning. It's so interesting to come at this from a different perspective. So thank you so much for joining us.

Follow Jesse!

• Instagram - @youneedabudget

• Facebook - @iYNAB

• Twitter - @ynab

• YouTube - @YouNeedABudget

• Website - https://www.youneedabudget.com

• Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-need-a-budget-ynab/id477248343

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Jesse Mecham:
People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey there, grownup friends. Do you guys stress out about money? I do some of the time. I do. Do you check your bank balance before you make a purchase? Do you get anxious worrying about something unexpected coming at you, whacking your delicately balanced finances that are okay for now, but maybe not as strong as you would like, especially if those unexpected things should happen? But we have you covered with this week's financial grownup, Jesse Mecham. He is the founder of the You Need a Budget app and software, I should say, AKA, YNAB. Jesse has a lot to say about how we take the stress out of our grownup financial lives. The father of seven is remarkably calm. Yeah, I said the father of seven, in part because he has been able to separate his work from his family life, something we also talk about. I think you're really going to love his work from home tips as well. So with that, here is YNAB's Jesse Mecham. Hey, Jesse Mecham, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jesse Mecham:
Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are the founder, CEO, and creator, creative mind, I should say, behind You Need a Budget, affectionately known by many as YNAB. Congratulations on all the success of this product, and really, it's more than a product. It's really a whole suite of tools to help grownups.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're focused on anyone that thinks at some moment in time, "I think I might need a budget," and then we try and convince them that a budget is fun and useful and productive. Then we just teach them kind of a new way of thinking about their money and have them go on their way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the backstory of this really started with you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. I was the first one to realize that I needed a budget, at least that I knew, and my very new wife and I, we were both just newlyweds, broke, both in school. We wanted to get through school. We wanted to do it without taking on any debt, and we weren't making a lot of money at all. So I just thought, "Well, we need to watch this carefully." So I built this little spreadsheet for just me and my wife, Julie. A year later, it had done a lot of heavy lifting for us. We were on the same page. We were saving money.

Jesse Mecham:
Then this little baby came along, and our two big goals, we didn't want to borrow any money for school and we wanted Julie to be able to step out of the workforce and just focus on this baby, and she was the breadwinner at that time. I was still mainly focused on school. So the whole impetus was like, "Well, could we figure out some way to just kind of close that gap?" That was where I thought, "Well, maybe other people would want to use this spreadsheet that Julie and I have used." So we launched it and iterated for the next 17 years, and here we are.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of people are working from home, but they're thinking or they're being told that they're going to come back in some form. So much is up in the air. Give us some money tips for managing this time in our lives.

Jesse Mecham:
Structure. That is the word. You want to build structure in. It's not so you can be uber super productive, right? We're not saying, "Oh, now you can be Superwoman because you've got work right there. You can go sit over there and just start plugging away." Not that at all. It's actually structure to be able to stop working and find time to close things down. So anything you can do, if it's a morning routine and a shutdown routine, our team swears by that, if you have the luxury of finding a separate space with maybe a door that you can close, that's excellent. Headphones that you can pop on and mute things, that's excellent. Anything where you can create structure around your work, but most importantly it's so you can shut things down. We saw a lot of burnout from 2020, not because ... Well, I mean, yeah, because of the pandemic, but because people didn't know how to not be at work when work had come home.

Bobbi Rebell:
All the rules changed when the pandemic hit. It became kind of okay to have kids in the background, but at a certain point, there is a productivity cost. So give us some money tips for parents balancing work and family, especially in this transitional time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're promoters of remote work, and it's been kind of unfair for remote work to have the pandemic come along with the experiment, because what you were dealing with, it's like, "Oh, we don't like working from home because my kids are here." I'm like, "Well, they won't always be there. They'll probably be back in school, and it'll feel different," or suddenly someone's having to just on a whim work from their kitchen table. That's not ideal for basically most everyone. I say most because I do know one person that loves the chaos, and he works, codes right in that. But he is the exception.

Jesse Mecham:
So we don't want to combine our experience of working from home with the fact that we had all these other dynamics with the pandemic, number one, and maybe only, because you'd start here and then see what happened. You've got to have conversations with your spouse. You're probably both working, and you kind of have to say, "Okay, how do we divide and conquer this situation?" But Julie and I, when I used to work in our home, we had to have just straightforward conversations. I would say, "Hey, I'm going to go down." It's like I'm gone, just gone, and she was clear on that. Then she also needed to know from me, "Hey, are you going to come up for lunch? Should I eat without you?" She didn't want to just miss out on something. But it was a little bit of a burden for her if I wasn't very communicative on what my schedule looked like. She's like, "Oh, should I wait around, or should I take off with the kids and go somewhere?"

Jesse Mecham:
So just overly communicating as far as the boundaries go has been really helpful, but you have to recognize you're always going to iterate on this. Everything's changing. Life will change. The kids will get a little older, and they can understand things like, "Hey, don't come in when the door's closed." I lock my door here when I'm doing something like this. It's recording where I'll hear Faye, my little five-year-old, run across the garage floor, and I'll hear her coming. She knows if the door's locked, that means don't knock. That means just give Dad a little bit of time, and I can pop out at some point. But you've got to communicate those boundaries like, "Hey, this is real. I'm really at work."

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's an area that is ripe for improvement in my home, for sure.

Jesse Mecham:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So okay. So your product is YNAB, and I'm sure some people are super fans and some people give you the eye roll. Part of it is that there's a perception that budgets are all about being restrictive. I'd like you to share an experience you had with your wife when you had a certain amount budgeted for groceries, but it wasn't working for her because it wasn't about the money.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, it's almost nothing is ever really about just the money. There's always something at least a few layers deep, and in this instance, I regret to say that it was a 10-year evolution of my learning on this and Julie also learning it as well. But for the most part, when we were first early on married and I was not even working just on YNAB, I had a real job and stuff, I mean, I was swamped doing that, and she was swamped doing these little kids. So we were both pretty swamped. I do still the heavy lifting of the budgeting as far as running the software and making sure everything's reconciled, and then she comes over and I'm like, "Hey, I'm ready for you." She comes over and she looks at it all, and we make sure we're on the same page.

Jesse Mecham:
That was always how it worked, and one of those categories in there was the groceries category. Our third rule of budgeting is to roll with the punches, meaning you can overspend. You just adjust. It's flexible. So every month, we would overspend in groceries, and then literally 10 years in, one day ... So this would mean we had four kids, probably, at the time. I was like ... Same old conversation. It was like a light bulb went off for Julie or something where she's like, "For me, a successful grocery trip doesn't mean I'm under budget. It means that the kids don't meltdown. It means that it's just smooth. It means we're in and out. That's success."

Jesse Mecham:
I was trying to have the old school Julie, when we were first married and she knew the price of every brand of can of corn. But over time, we had evolved, and she didn't have the brain space for it, nor should she have. So it was her recognizing the value that she was placing was on the experience, not on just, "Oh, look how little we spent." Way back when we were first married, it was vital that we spent so little because it was so tight. So I bumped our budget up quite a bit, and we haven't overspent since. That was a big lesson for me. There's usually something behind the scenes when we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and you're speaking to something that hits home for so many of our grownup listeners, that it is an evolution as you go through the different stages of being a grownup. At the early times, when you made that budget initially and the decision about how much money you would have for groceries, she was in a position where it made sense with her time and her attention to be looking at every little price. There sometimes is a time in life when the price within that budget is not the most important thing. It might be the time, that it's not worth her time, resources, especially now, as you have seven children, to know the price of corn or whatever it may be. So I think it's really important that financial grownups understand that things change and that's okay. It's important to be able to adjust things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're a big believer in not having debt. Obviously, you say it's not inevitable, but there are a lot of people that point out that debt can be used for good, like education. You were able to avoid debt for your education. Tell us about that, and give us some tips about avoiding debt, especially for people that are looking at student debt, credit card debt, what have you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. The student debt, I'll kind of set aside for just a moment. Credit card debt, for the most part, at least as it's reported, you see a lot of people say, "The worst situations are someone declares bankruptcy." They'll say, "A lot of the time, it's a medical debt that will kind of tip the scales," but we don't recognize all of the little debts that come along that kind of pile up. Then it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. This final one is a medical bill or something a little bit larger than is the norm. Most people, it's kind of death by a thousand cuts with that credit card balance. So it goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way. It goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way.

Jesse Mecham:
It's really because they're making spending decisions now, not considering future expenses that are going to happen, that are very much going to happen. The car will need to be repaired at some point or an appliance will need to be replaced. So when these abnormal kind of ... Someone will say, "Oh, it's this one-off thing. This isn't a normal month, but we had this one-off kind of 'Ah' experience. I just had a water heater go out. Well, just the pipe for it, where it started shooting a little stream of water in your face if you walked by. We were like, 'Well, we've got to get that fixed.'" That just happens. So that's all real, and there is no such thing as a normal month. So every time we see a new expense pop up, we're like, "Oh, that's abnormal. That's not normally what happens. So I'll just put it on this card because it's a one-off." You find out that that abnormal stuff happens all the time. So we're always kind of telling ourselves that story, and that story isn't true.

Jesse Mecham:
So when we get to our second rule, we are embracing those true expenses, we want people to be able to look ahead to those larger, less frequent expenses that surprise them and break them up into monthly amounts and start saving up for the car repair, the appliance repair, or the vacation, kids' summer camp or whatever it may be, not always just bad things. Then when they're choosing to spend money in the moment, they're considering the future as well. So that thinking shift, and I should say I'm not talking about people that are truly in dire straights. They know how to stretch. I mean, you talk about financial grownups, financial tips, they know how to stretch a dollar in ways that would just blow our minds. So I'm talking about people that make good money. They don't have good information, and so they're just not choosing in the moment based on information that's fit to really give them the answer they need. That's how we slowly get into the credit card debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can you get that information?

Jesse Mecham:
You need to stop looking at your checking account balance as the end all, be all point of information. Say, "Well, how much money do I have? Can I go out to sushi, or are we going to get some cheap pizza? Can I do this? Can I buy these shoes that I just saw or not?" People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Jesse Mecham:
So instead, we want them to follow our first rule. You take that bank balance, you break it up into jobs, and you say, "This month" ... Say we have $1,000. "400 of that is for groceries for the next little while. The 200 of it is for this thing. 100 of it is for a car repair that I know will happen, but I don't know when and I don't know how much, but 100 bucks would be better than zero. I'm going to set that aside this month." You just start breaking that pile of money down. 50 bucks will be for sushi. Then you live according to that plan.

Jesse Mecham:
When your friend says, "Hey, we should go get some sushi," you look at your phone, and instead of seeing that you have $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, yeah, sushi, slam dunk" or you see $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, should I? I don't know," you still don't know, still stressful, you look at the sushi category and you're like, "Oh, I've got 50 bucks. I'm sitting pretty. Let's go do sushi," or you see that your eating out category is $2 and you're like, "You want to just come over? I'll make you some tea or something." But you're not choosing something now without considering all of those future obligations that are going to hit you. That's the key.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to get through a couple other tips we have prepared for our listeners. You talk a lot about embracing your true expenses, and I feel like you were alluding to that in the last answer. What does it mean to embrace your true expenses?

Jesse Mecham:
You have to recognize that expenses are not even. They're not steady. They're like, I don't know, a really unhealthy EKG, maybe, where it's just like, "Boom, here's a big surprise. Boom, here's a big surprise." You always think, "Oh, that's the exception." It's not. It's real. Christmas comes every single year. So if you celebrate Christmas, if you do the gift thing, then you'd say, "Well, how much do we want to spend on that? Maybe it's $600." So you set aside 50 bucks a month. For all of 2021, you're setting aside 50 bucks a month, and then when Christmas comes, you have $600. Instead of flipping it around and starting to say, "Oh, well, I don't have any money, so I'll just put it on a card and then I'll pay that down," think about it this way, Bobbi. It's always you and future you that are sitting there with the pile of money. Future you needs to have a voice at the table.

Jesse Mecham:
If you think about the debt situation that you asked me about earlier, when you say someone's like, "Oh, we'll put that on a payment plan. We'll put this on a payment plan. That's the name of the game," that person, that company is thinking about future them. They're like, "Oh, man, it'd be great if you'd finance this car. Absolutely. It'd be great for us." They're totally thinking about future them, future quarterly earnings things for shareholders, future bank balance. I mean, they're all over the future. Then you have the person that signs it away saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that note for this car." They're not thinking about the future. I'm trying to flip that around. I'm trying to have people think about their future and position themselves to be future-oriented, where then they're making decisions with both of you in mind, future Bobbi, present Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and it's hard, because the truth is one of the things that worries a lot of us right now is that things like you talk about a car, car loans are getting longer and longer in term to make the payments look lower, but ultimately, you're paying more, and it's over your head for a very long time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're orienting where they know. Well, don't even look at the repo situation. I mean, how many times people will get cars repossessed, and the same car will get repossessed five times. There is someone making money in that scenario, and it's not the person driving the car. So that seven-year note that you see on cars now, they used to be three, then five. Now they're seven. All that is is an evolution of the financing of that GM, Ford. Every car company makes most of their money, most of their profits from the financing side of this, not from the manufacture of the car. They're putting it out to seven years because they know that future Toyota, future Honda, no knock on any of the companies, but they are future- and profit-oriented, and people that are buying the car are now-oriented.

Jesse Mecham:
That's where we have to just try and get that shift to happen. So you start paying yourself a car payment, saving up cash for it over time. It might mean that you buy a car that's beneath you for a little while, but then you trade up over time and you start paying cash for that. You get out of that car payment trap. It's not a given.

Bobbi Rebell:
Or you don't trade up. A lot of really wealthy people drive really crummy cars.

Jesse Mecham:
It is absolutely. Yeah. They're hiding in plain sight.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. One final tip. What does it mean to age your money?

Jesse Mecham:
So we're essentially talking about if you were to earn a dollar today that it would be 30 to 60 days before you actually spent that dollar. So when a dollar enters your system, the clock starts ticking, and that dollar starts getting older and older and older. Right now, most people that are living paycheck to paycheck, they are spending dollars. I mean, they have a pile of bills just waiting for money to land, and we want to flip that around. We want to have a pile of money where bills come and land and you're like, "Oh, okay, I've got the money here set aside."

Jesse Mecham:
If you follow our first three rules, which we talk about ad nauseum, if you follow our first three rules, that fourth rule where you start to spend money that's a little older, a little older, a little older, it almost just happens automatically. It's a way to step back from the financial edge. You sleep better. You can talk more effectively about money with your partner because the stress levels are much lower. You make better decisions because of those stress levels being lower. You probably live longer because your stress levels are lower.

Jesse Mecham:
That's the aging your money concept. Spend money that is old. When you think about swiping a card, you actually spend money that ... Well, the metaphor breaks down, but it hasn't even been born yet. You haven't even earned it yet. The shift that we're seeing where companies are paying people for that day, for that shift, and they think that's going to help people break the paycheck to paycheck cycle, that's not going to do it. We're just pushing that can down the road. We have to have people start to orient themselves around thinking a little further ahead.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the way that you are reframing this and the different perspectives that you're giving, because I'm sitting here listening, and my mind is turning. It's so interesting to come at this from a different perspective. So thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find out more about you and about your company?

Jesse Mecham:
You can just go to youneedabudget.com, and we are on all the social stuff. We're even on TikTok, which I don't even understand, but we're there. I personally am not on any of the social stuff. I stay plenty busy not doing that. But you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, all over the place. My podcast is called You Need a Budget as well, and if you loved listening to this silky voice, you can listen to it all you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
So great having you. Thank you.

Jesse Mecham:
Thanks so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's review some of what we learned from Jesse. First of all, it took 17 years for Jesse to get his business where it is now. So be prepared to play the long game with your goals. If you are working from home for the long haul, make sure you create structure to put up guardrails and protect your time so you don't get burned out. Remember, the kids are going back to school. Because kids were home at the same time, remote work was very different during the pandemic. With the kids back in school, it likely will be easier, but make sure to communicate with your family about exactly how things are going to run. Be prepared for abnormal expenses, which are actually kind of routine. We just don't think of it that way. Start putting money aside for unexpected expenses that you know to expect.

Bobbi Rebell:
Consider the future. When you were about to buy something, are you considering future you and how that will impact future you, the decision you make today, right? Break up your money and give every dollar a job to start getting control of your money. Think it through. When you borrow money, like for a car, know that the companies stretch out the length of the loan to make those payments lower. Do the math, but I'm going to bet you probably are going to pay more in the end. Age your money. Try to wait and have money in your account for a period of time before you spend it. It'll take a lot of anxiety out of your life. How do you lower the stress levels when it comes to money? I'd love to hear your ideas. DM me at bobbirebell1, and let me know.

Bobbi Rebell:
A reminder, if you are shopping for gifts, please check out grownupgear.com. I will be eternally grateful for your business. As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to grownupgear.com each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. We could also call it Financial Independence Day, I hope. I don't know. Maybe. There are two ways to enter to win. Take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, and tag me at bobbirebell1. Then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. That's hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter to win a $50 gift card to grownupgear.com is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. So easy, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Grownup Gear, as I like to say, is it's a micro business. We really do need and appreciate all of your support, so check it out and, of course, tell your friends. Big thanks to Jesse Mecham of You Need a Budget for helping us lower our stress levels and be our best financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup, the podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free. But I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

After being stuck at home for more than a year, many of us are ready to spend! This week’s Financial Grownup Dr. George Blount says that’s actually ok. But there’s some important strategies to keep us out of trouble when we hit that “buy” button.

George’s Money Tips

George Blount:
I'm a financial therapist. I means I help people with their emotional relationship with money, and that usually takes place in a few aspects. There are five areas of financial health and that's the economic, the relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional elements of financial health and I try to help individuals with each of those. The economic is the most common one that is primarily products and services or processes that people are used to. The parts that people are not as familiar with, or delving deeper into your financial behavior kind of some of the feelings that you have, the psychological aspects of money, or maybe the emotional response that you have the money. So I try to delve deeper into those aspects.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper now. Let's talk about spending habits and ways to improve them. What are your top tips for that to begin with? And then we'll get back into the emotional things and the economic stuff that you were talking about.

George Blount:
Yeah. Some of the things that are going to be helpful to at least curb your spending are first and foremost, putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase. So if you have a reason, or if you have a goal that you're aligning some of your spending to, it makes it easier for you to be aware of the spending, one, it also allows you to have a timeframe on what is an appropriate amount of spending and then what's an appropriate time to enjoy that spending and sort of really just allows you to have a better understanding.

George Blount:
The second thing I would say is the pace. We just have to understand that you don't always have to spend money right away. So as you come up with these decisions, or as you have an opportunity to spend really think about it, take a little bit of time before you make that decision and then you move forward. So having a purpose to your purchases, and then think about the pace that you have in your spending as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming out of the pandemic a lot of us feel whether we're aware of it or not, this urge to splurge, we call it revenge spending. How do you manage that? What do you do? Because we've had this pent up, we've literally been pent up, I should say, for so long that I don't know, we feel like we deserve it. Right?

George Blount:
So it's important to look at it as not a zero sum game. There are some things that are bad habits that were formed throughout this period of time, but then there are also some good things that happen throughout this period of time. So you can look back and say, "Okay, I have improved in these areas. I've saved in this part of my spending," or, "I improved my saving in this area. So that's something that I want to hold on to, and this is something that I'm doing that that I really don't want to hold onto. It's a poor habit and I need to get rid of it."

George Blount:
So really comparing and contrasting some of the good things and bad things that you have learned, and then making a choice that the mindful spending is really about presenting yourself with viable alternatives and then selecting the appropriate choice for you. So that when you're spending isn't based on regret or some type of emotional element, but where it's based on achieving a goal and based on some type of alignment to an objective that is going to serve well for the longer term.

Bobbi Rebell:
What role does peer pressure play in our spending, especially now when other people are telling us we deserve certain things?

George Blount:
Yeah. It takes a large part of our brain capacity to really hear what everybody else is saying. So it's a really significant part of what we deal with. Peer pressure is something that allows us to exacerbate some of our bad spending. Maybe it amplifies or validate some of our good behaviors, but let's just talk about the negative side of it, because that's what we see. People in general don't need a lot of people to tell them what to do. In fact, we trust information from a very small number of people. So if we hear a couple of things from a small number of people that we may trust, or that we believe in, we take it to heart.

George Blount:
So sometimes if it may not be well-informed financial decisions, or it may be more of an opinion that someone has based on their previous experience as opposed to an educational opportunity, then it really is a negative effect of peer pressure. So we need to try to avoid that because it's pretty popular and we should probably convert it to some of the other forms, which is maybe listen to your professors or, or some of the journalist, or maybe the contextual way that some individuals can allow conversations to make sense. That's good peer pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any specific suggestions to combat that when someone say, "Oh, you haven't bought anything in this long. Just get it."

George Blount:
I think I would always recommend there's a simulation that you can play. It's a playspent.org, playS-P-E-N-T.org. And what it is, it's just a simulation on trying to balance out your spending and it takes about five minutes or so to go through. But go through that exercise and it is a hypothetical simulation of whether or not you could save money in a month and what types of activities may come in throughout the month that can deter your spending or deter your savings. And that single perspective is often really good and allowing people to understand just the randomness that life presents when it comes to our financial decisions, our financial purchases, or where we need to save.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some red flags to look for?

George Blount:
Red flags I think normally will come from things that you don't feel well about. When I talk to individuals and I say, "I help people with their emotional relationship with money." Some people don't know what that emotional relationship is. It's hard to describe, you can't go into it and we have to go through this mode of discovery. Some people understand it very well. And some people know that there are bad influences on their spending, where they're spending to make themselves feel better, or they're doing things that they know that they just don't want to do. So if you subconsciously know that, or even if you are overtly saying that that would be a red flag.

Bobbi Rebell:
And a lot of people became more comfortable online shopping than ever during the pandemic. What can we do to make sure that we're not overspending in terms of online?

George Blount:
Limiting the exposure to your phone, your screen time, similar to the way that you would with social media and you take a fast or you take a little break, you have to do the same thing with the shopping apps that are on your phone. You can remove them, you can take a break from them, nothing to look at them. I think the more we are away from it, it's a little bit easier.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about also subscribing to newsletters, websites, store cards, that kind of stuff?

George Blount:
Yeah. I think as long as it is serving a purpose. Again, you have this a situation where you're looking at information that is going to allow you to one way or another, make a purchase that satisfies your need or not. So if it's purposeful, then by all means go right ahead. But if it's not, I think that's where there's a problem. So just giving yourself better alternatives is always going to be the approach that I would recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

George Blount:
Yeah, I would just add two things to think. The first one is that as you mentioned, I think more people have become more comfortable shopping online. I think more people, they've gotten a lot better at seeking help out. So maybe it is not always been seen as appropriate to seek out therapy when it comes to your financial decisions, but that is something that is very possible as well. I think the second thing is you can always look at trusted sources like mymoney.gov, For places that will give you great information on how you should spend, how you should save and terms that are incredibly important. And that's free websites that are accessible to everybody.

Follow George!

• Instagram - @nbalancefinancial

• Facebook - @nbalancefinancial

• Twitter - @nbalancefin

• YouTube

• LinkedIn

• Website - www.nbalancefinancial.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grown-up for 15% off, your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

George Blount:
Putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we've got this. Hello grownups, feeling the urge to splurge these days? Maybe a little revenge spending after over a year of basically being stuck at home. That is totally normal and probably okay. A little, as long as you follow the rules you are going to hear from this week's guest financial therapist, Dr. George Blount, Managing Partner at nBalance Financial. Dr. Blount works with individuals on financial matters, but with a special focus on the emotional, behavioral and psychological elements that impact their financial decisions. In our interview, Dr. Blount walks us through the five areas of financial health, and then we're going to get into his money tips and how we can all still enjoy spending and even splurging without derailing our goals. Here is Dr. George Blount. Dr. George Blount, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

George Blount:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. Pleasure to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am excited to have you on, you're going to be sharing your tips to improve our spending habits. But before we do that, I introduced you as Dr. George Blount. You're a financial therapist, tell us about that.

George Blount:
Yep. So I'm a financial therapist. I means I help people with their emotional relationship with money, and that usually takes place in a few aspects. There are five areas of financial health and that's the economic, the relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional elements of financial health and I try to help individuals with each of those. The economic is the most common one that is primarily products and services or processes that people are used to. The parts that people are not as familiar with, or delving deeper into your financial behavior kind of some of the feelings that you have, the psychological aspects of money, or maybe the emotional response that you have the money. So I try to delve deeper into those aspects.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper now. Let's talk about spending habits and ways to improve them. What are your top tips for that to begin with? And then we'll get back into the emotional things and the economic stuff that you were talking about.

George Blount:
Yeah. Some of the things that are going to be helpful to at least curb your spending are first and foremost, putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase. So if you have a reason, or if you have a goal that you're aligning some of your spending to, it makes it easier for you to be aware of the spending, one, it also allows you to have a timeframe on what is an appropriate amount of spending and then what's an appropriate time to enjoy that spending and sort of really just allows you to have a better understanding.

George Blount:
The second thing I would say is the pace. We just have to understand that you don't always have to spend money right away. So as you come up with these decisions, or as you have an opportunity to spend really think about it, take a little bit of time before you make that decision and then you move forward. So having a purpose to your purchases, and then think about the pace that you have in your spending as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming out of the pandemic a lot of us feel whether we're aware of it or not, this urge to splurge, we call it revenge spending. How do you manage that? What do you do? Because we've had this pent up, we've literally been pent up, I should say, for so long that I don't know, we feel like we deserve it. Right?

George Blount:
So it's important to look at it as not a zero sum game. There are some things that are bad habits that were formed throughout this period of time, but then there are also some good things that happen throughout this period of time. So you can look back and say, "Okay, I have improved in these areas. I've saved in this part of my spending," or, "I improved my saving in this area. So that's something that I want to hold on to, and this is something that I'm doing that that I really don't want to hold onto. It's a poor habit and I need to get rid of it."

George Blount:
So really comparing and contrasting some of the good things and bad things that you have learned, and then making a choice that the mindful spending is really about presenting yourself with viable alternatives and then selecting the appropriate choice for you. So that when you're spending isn't based on regret or some type of emotional element, but where it's based on achieving a goal and based on some type of alignment to an objective that is going to serve well for the longer term.

Bobbi Rebell:
What role does peer pressure play in our spending, especially now when other people are telling us we deserve certain things?

George Blount:
Yeah. It takes a large part of our brain capacity to really hear what everybody else is saying. So it's a really significant part of what we deal with. Peer pressure is something that allows us to exacerbate some of our bad spending. Maybe it amplifies or validate some of our good behaviors, but let's just talk about the negative side of it, because that's what we see. People in general don't need a lot of people to tell them what to do. In fact, we trust information from a very small number of people. So if we hear a couple of things from a small number of people that we may trust, or that we believe in, we take it to heart.

George Blount:
So sometimes if it may not be well-informed financial decisions, or it may be more of an opinion that someone has based on their previous experience as opposed to an educational opportunity, then it really is a negative effect of peer pressure. So we need to try to avoid that because it's pretty popular and we should probably convert it to some of the other forms, which is maybe listen to your professors or, or some of the journalist, or maybe the contextual way that some individuals can allow conversations to make sense. That's good peer pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any specific suggestions to combat that when someone say, "Oh, you haven't bought anything in this long. Just get it."

George Blount:
I think I would always recommend there's a simulation that you can play. It's a playspent.org, playS-P-E-N-T.org. And what it is, it's just a simulation on trying to balance out your spending and it takes about five minutes or so to go through. But go through that exercise and it is a hypothetical simulation of whether or not you could save money in a month and what types of activities may come in throughout the month that can deter your spending or deter your savings. And that single perspective is often really good and allowing people to understand just the randomness that life presents when it comes to our financial decisions, our financial purchases, or where we need to save.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some red flags to look for?

George Blount:
Red flags I think normally will come from things that you don't feel well about. When I talk to individuals and I say, "I help people with their emotional relationship with money." Some people don't know what that emotional relationship is. It's hard to describe, you can't go into it and we have to go through this mode of discovery. Some people understand it very well. And some people know that there are bad influences on their spending, where they're spending to make themselves feel better, or they're doing things that they know that they just don't want to do. So if you subconsciously know that, or even if you are overtly saying that that would be a red flag.

Bobbi Rebell:
And a lot of people became more comfortable online shopping than ever during the pandemic. What can we do to make sure that we're not overspending in terms of online?

George Blount:
Limiting the exposure to your phone, your screen time, similar to the way that you would with social media and you take a fast or you take a little break, you have to do the same thing with the shopping apps that are on your phone. You can remove them, you can take a break from them, nothing to look at them. I think the more we are away from it, it's a little bit easier.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about also subscribing to newsletters, websites, store cards, that kind of stuff?

George Blount:
Yeah. I think as long as it is serving a purpose. Again, you have this a situation where you're looking at information that is going to allow you to one way or another, make a purchase that satisfies your need or not. So if it's purposeful, then by all means go right ahead. But if it's not, I think that's where there's a problem. So just giving yourself better alternatives is always going to be the approach that I would recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

George Blount:
Yeah, I would just add two things to think. The first one is that as you mentioned, I think more people have become more comfortable shopping online. I think more people, they've gotten a lot better at seeking help out. So maybe it is not always been seen as appropriate to seek out therapy when it comes to your financial decisions, but that is something that is very possible as well. I think the second thing is you can always look at trusted sources like mymoney.gov, For places that will give you great information on how you should spend, how you should save and terms that are incredibly important. And that's free websites that are accessible to everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Where can people find out more about you and be in touch?

George Blount:
Absolutely. So they can go to my website, which is nbalancefinancial.com. And that's N-B-L-A-N-C-E, that's nbalancefinancial.com. And they can always get in touch with me directly through that site. I'm located in Boston, but servicing all throughout the US through this virtual environment.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

George Blount:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. It's just been such a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's review some of Dr. Blount's money tips. First of all, there are five areas of financial health, economic, relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional. To curb your spending, put a goal in front of you, a purpose to your purchase. Watch out for negative peer pressure and make sure to include vetted third party information when you're making big money decisions. Take a break, not just from social media, which pushes those shopping ads, but also from those shopping apps on your phone. It may not be something that you think of naturally, but there is a lot of emotion and psychology in our financial decisions, and it may be worth seeking therapy if you find yourself struggling with your financial situation, especially in these times that are really unprecedented. One thing that is definitely okay to spend the right amount of money on is celebrating life's adulting moments. And the best place of course, to get those gifts is at grownupgear.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you haven't checked it out yet, take a look. We have the perfect gift for all of those adulting celebrations, those adulting milestones that we celebrate from graduations, to engagements, bridal showers, new homes, birthdays, becoming new parents, all those good things. As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to grown-up gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. And maybe we can also call it financial independence day. I don't know. Anyway, there are two ways to enter to win. Way number one is to take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, tag me @bobbirebell1. And then also this is key, email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. That's hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot, and then send that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Growing up here is what we like to call a micro business, and we really do and appreciate all of your support. So please check it out and tell your friends. We also appreciated Dr. George Blount for helping us all be financial grownups. Money tips for financial grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

It is wedding season! To celebrate we talked to Sarah Miller and Nichole Holmes of the show that asks the engaged to jointly make a big choice: A solid starter home- or a lifetime of memories with loved ones at a big wedding. The choice may seem simple- but if you listen you will see it is both financial and emotional. 

Sarah and Nichole’s Money Story

Bobbi Rebell:
I did my homework. You were both cast on the show. So you did not come up with the original concept. What was it like when they first came to you, and they came to you individually with this concept? What was your gut reaction?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. I loved it. I honestly thought it was fake at first. I was like, "Am I getting scammed? What's going on here?" Because I've never been on TV or any of that stuff before. So it was surreal to me. But yeah, after they really pitched it to me, I loved it. It's just what I do every single day just with cameras added to it. So I signed on immediately. I loved it.

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole, and I was on board from the get-go. It was such a great idea. I was a little hesitant, not knowing how they would edit you and things like that, but I am blown away with the editing skills and how amazing the show looks. I'm super excited about all of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
This show teaches so many financial lessons, budgeting, making tough financial choices, money, values. What is your money script, a lot of people would say? Tell us about what you've learned in listening to all of the people on the show that makes you think, how have you guys evolved through all of this?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. So I think it's just, you have to listen to your clients. I mean, this is something again that Nichole and I both do in every day life. So we're trying to fill somebody's dreams and trying to expand their budgets and really give them the utopia of what they're looking for. So I think with the show, the biggest part was us listening to really what was important to them and trying to bring that to reality so they could actually have a hard time choosing either the house or the wedding.

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole. It just reminded me about when I was younger and didn't make the smartest financial decisions because we have some fairly young couples on the show that did choose wedding, and I just saw myself in their eyes. I get it because I was given the option when I was getting married the first time. My dad said, "Are you sure that you don't want to take this chunk of money and put it on a down payment on a home or have two really nice cars in the driveway?" or whatever, and I was like, "No, Daddy, I have to have my big day." So now twice divorced and 47 years old, and now that I'm in real estate, I just cringe at how much money I could have made had I actually put it down on an asset rather than just a day.

Bobbi Rebell:
You guys both bring a lot of life experience to the show, and one thing that I love is that you don't judge. Nichole, you just talked about your own life experiences, your own really important money story. And yet you hold back a little, you give them some room. Is that hard? What's that like?

Nichole Holmes:
I want them to do the smartest thing financially that I think is the smartest, and then we've got Sarah thinking they need to invest in these memories. And so I always say this in almost every interview, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." So all I can do is present the best package possible, show them the best houses, hit all of their top wishes and wants, and hope that they make a sound investment in land or a house.

Sarah Miller:
Nichole doesn't hold back, by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're both really good about managing expectations. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because many of these couples have really saved up for many years, these amounts of money, which are generally about $30,000, that is their life savings. And yet they can't always get their dream wedding or their dream house when they're realistic about you can't get everything. You guys are good at that. Tell us a little bit about that and the psychology of managing expectations from a financial perspective.

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. Again, I think it's just all about smart money and dumb money, especially when you're planning a wedding. It's like, listen, put your money where it's going to shine the most, what's most important to you. Let's highlight those areas and scale back on the rest. Because, again, coming into wedding planning, if they only have a small amount of budget allocated to this, then we have to figure out what to do with it. If they put a chose a house and a wedding, they wouldn't be our clients right now. It's one or the other. So we have to make sure that we can maximize it in the right way that makes sense for where they're at in their life at that moment.

Nichole Holmes:
Right. And as a real estate agent, I have to listen to what's most important. There's no such thing as a perfect house, and you're never going to find that dream home, when you're on a budget, I should say. You can find it if you're not on a budget. But if you're working with a budget, I just have to take what's most important to them, just like Sarah said she does with the weddings. And if it's a yard that they want it, if it's the extra bedroom so they can have an at home office or the right school system, all of that goes into play and you just have to let them know that, "The list that you gave me isn't possible. I will show you on paper. Here is the house that you're talking about," and show them how much money that is and how much over budget. So then they get it. And it's, again, exactly what you said, it's managing their expectations.

Bobbi Rebell:
You've both been in your field for a substantial amount of time. Nichole, you've been in real estate, I think, full time, for more than a decade. And Sarah, you're about the same, so what's up. But you also have seen the social media evolution and how that has influenced people's expectations. Tell me more about that. I mean, I think we had a donut wall in an episode. And to be fair, you have the wedding shows, but you also have these home shows where people have these dream shows. I mean, really, how has that changed people's expectations in terms of what they prioritize and how far their money will go?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. I think on the show, we did a really good job with keeping in with our budgets. Again, we're not trying to over, I guess, over, what's the word, over show them anything that they really can't afford.

Nichole Holmes:
Over sell them.

Sarah Miller:
Over sell them, yeah exactly. We're trying to meet their expectations, but expanding those areas that were really important to them. So when you refer to the donut wall with that one couple, they wanted something unique that would run through social media. That's their era, their age. They were all about a show-stopping conversation piece at their wedding. So that's where that came in. But, again, I feel like the show in households nowadays helps viewers know that there are certain things that they can't afford. They just need to be open-minded about the other areas if they want their specific things.

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah, and this is Nichole. So when people are house shopping, they do a lot of it online now. So it's a good thing and a bad thing to a realtor.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah.

Nichole Holmes:
Because a lot of those websites that they go to, they aren't updated, and so they think that these homes are available and the market is so hot right now in middle Tennessee and Davidson County, specifically, houses are on the markets for hours and then they get snatched up. And so it's making our jobs as realtors a little bit harder because they will send you this list and you're like, "Well, stick with the list I sent you, because this is what's available. Whatever you're sending me and you're finding, you don't have access to the present, the real time houses." So that can get a little bit tricky.

Bobbi Rebell:
So the show was filmed before the pandemic. And, of course, some of the weddings were affected by the pandemic. A lot's changed, so you're still in touch with a lot of the couples that you worked with. Tell me what's been going on with them. Have there been regrets? Have there been, "Oh, I'm so glad I made that choice because of the pandemic and how I feel now"?

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah. From a real estate side, they're thrilled because housing prices are still going up.

Sarah Miller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nichole Holmes:
They already equity in their home and they've been in for less than a year or about a year at this point. So I don't have any of my couples that chose house that are upset with their decision.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah, this is Sarah. Same thing on the wedding side. I think, again, the pandemic had a lot to do with wedding changes and stress and all of that stuff, but all the weddings from the show, they actually did go through, they just had to shift around a little bit. So, but yeah, I think everybody had an amazing time, and no matter if it was eight people to 100 people.

Sarah and Nichole’s Money Lesson

Bobbi Rebell:
What lessons have you guys learned in this whole process about money and psychology and the emotion of it and the practicality of it?

Nichole Holmes:
I think we learned more negotiating skills-

Sarah Miller:
Than anything.

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah, and it's judging the couples and what's important to them when we make our final pitches at the end of the show. You can see in their eyes, like when Sarah mentioned the donut wall was going to get thrown in, that boy's eyes lit up. He couldn't have been happier had she offered him a million dollars, I think. He was just so thrilled he was going to get the donut wall.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah, we were just talking how amazing of a concept it is. It's so funny because, when I'm planning weddings every single day, the clients aren't saying, "Oh, well, I don't know if I can plan my wedding because we're about to choose a house." So this is great that we actually have to battle for this and really try to figure out what's really important to them and what they want to choose.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because when people see the title, the logical intellectual one goes, "Of course, you would choose a house." But we're not wired that way as humans necessarily.

Sarah Miller:
I agree, and I love that. I get a lot of flack for being the wedding planner. They're like, "How could you? What are you doing?" I'm like, "Listen, love is love. It is what it is." If people didn't choose wedding, it wouldn't be a show.

Sarah and Nichole’s Money Tips

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole. So I think it's super important to find a seasoned realtor that knows what they're doing and who has closed a lot of deals, because the negotiations can get intense, especially in a heated market, like it is now. And a good realtor can negotiate and literally save their clients thousands and thousands of dollars by the time it's all said and done.

Bobbi Rebell:
So work with a human, and one that's the right fit for you?

Nichole Holmes:
Oh absolutely. The fun part is finding the house and that's easy. It's after you write the contract and get to the closing table that everything can go sideways. And it does a lot of the time. So you need someone who is seasoned and knows what they're doing to keep everything on track and going in the right direction.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sarah, what's your money tip?

Sarah Miller:
I dido Nichole's thing that she said as well. Hire a professional first. Hire a wedding planner, because going into planning a wedding, number one, you have to have a budget in mind. Number two, hiring a professional is going to save you countless hours over research and time. So if you can start with that and then also jump into it and talk about like your most important parts. Talk about smart money and dumb money. Put your money where you really want it to shine and scale back on those other things.

Follow Sarah!

• Instagram - @southernvineco

• Sarah’s website - https://southernvineco.com

Follow Nichole!

• Instagram - @nicholeholmesrealty

• Nichole’s website -

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, T's, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code "grownup" for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Nichole Holmes:
When Sarah mentioned the donut wall was going to get thrown in, that boy's eyes lit up. He couldn't have been happier had she offered him a million dollars, I think. He was just so thrilled he was going to get the donut wall.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips For Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this. Hello, my grownup friends. So as you heard in that cold open, Instagram worthy, show's stopping, sounds like, a donut wall at a wedding are a big part of what makes the Netflix series, Marriage or Mortgage, binge-worthy TV. And if you don't know what a donut wall is, well, go do that quick visit to Instagram. It'll tell you all you need to know. On each episode of Marriage or Mortgage, a couple with a limited budget, usually around $30,000, meets with each of the show's hosts, wedding planner, Sarah Miller, and realtor, Nichole Holmes, who show them what each option would look like within their budget. And yes, it is a contest and, yes, the hosts are competitive. They are out to win over the couple who have to make a choice.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the two hosts pull all kinds of stunts from customizing and staging homes in very personalized and eccentric ways to, yes, donut walls for weddings. And by the way, that was a big thing for that guy. Anyway, beneath all the icing on the cakes, Marriage or Mortgage actually has a very serious financial learning premise. What would you do if you literally could either have a home to start your married life in or a wedding where you have all your friends and family celebrating a huge adulting milestone in your life and creating a lifetime of memories, especially after this year that we've had, when we really treasure those memories? Gut reaction among you guys, I bet it's probably the house. That was my knee-jerk reaction too, but take a step back and think about how our culture has evolved.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about all that talk about experiences over stuff? Isn't a wedding where all the people you care about and love share an incredible experience? Isn't that important. And home is not always the best investment, let's face it. And in fact, many people don't want to own a home and renting has become a popular choice. Home ownership, by the way, can have a lot of hidden financial unwelcome surprises. So you see? It does get a little complicated, and there are definite parts of the show that reflect a weird experiment in behavioral economics. Can you tell I love this show? On that note, here are the hosts, Sarah Miller and Nichole Holmes. Sarah Miller, Nichole Holmes, you are both financial grownups. Welcome to the podcast.

Nichole Holmes:
Thank you so much for having us.

Sarah Miller:
We're so excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
This is such a gift for me because I am a super fan of both of you and your Netflix hit show, Marriage or Mortgage. First of all, congratulations on all the success and the buzz this is getting.

Nichole Holmes:
Thank you so much.

Sarah Miller:
We love it. We love it. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
I did my homework. You were both cast on the show. So you did not come up with the original concept. What was it like when they first came to you, and they came to you individually with this concept? What was your gut reaction?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. I loved it. I honestly thought it was fake at first. I was like, "Am I getting scammed? What's going on here?" Because I've never been on TV or any of that stuff before. So it was surreal to me. But yeah, after they really pitched it to me, I loved it. It's just what I do every single day just with cameras added to it. So I signed on immediately. I loved it.

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole, and I was on board from the get-go. It was such a great idea. I was a little hesitant, not knowing how they would edit you and things like that, but I am blown away with the editing skills and how amazing the show looks. I'm super excited about all of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
This show teaches so many financial lessons, budgeting, making tough financial choices, money, values. What is your money script, a lot of people would say? Tell us about what you've learned in listening to all of the people on the show that makes you think, how have you guys evolved through all of this?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. So I think it's just, you have to listen to your clients. I mean, this is something again that Nichole and I both do in every day life. So we're trying to fill somebody's dreams and trying to expand their budgets and really give them the utopia of what they're looking for. So I think with the show, the biggest part was us listening to really what was important to them and trying to bring that to reality so they could actually have a hard time choosing either the house or the wedding.

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole. It just reminded me about when I was younger and didn't make the smartest financial decisions because we have some fairly young couples on the show that did choose wedding, and I just saw myself in their eyes. I get it because I was given the option when I was getting married the first time. My dad said, "Are you sure that you don't want to take this chunk of money and put it on a down payment on a home or have two really nice cars in the driveway?" or whatever, and I was like, "No, Daddy, I have to have my big day." So now twice divorced and 47 years old, and now that I'm in real estate, I just cringe at how much money I could have made had I actually put it down on an asset rather than just a day.

Bobbi Rebell:
You guys both bring a lot of life experience to the show, and one thing that I love is that you don't judge. Nichole, you just talked about your own life experiences, your own really important money story. And yet you hold back a little, you give them some room. Is that hard? What's that like?

Nichole Holmes:
I want them to do the smartest thing financially that I think is the smartest, and then we've got Sarah thinking they need to invest in these memories. And so I always say this in almost every interview, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." So all I can do is present the best package possible, show them the best houses, hit all of their top wishes and wants, and hope that they make a sound investment in land or a house.

Sarah Miller:
Nichole doesn't hold back, by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're both really good about managing expectations. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because many of these couples have really saved up for many years, these amounts of money, which are generally about $30,000, that is their life savings. And yet they can't always get their dream wedding or their dream house when they're realistic about you can't get everything. You guys are good at that. Tell us a little bit about that and the psychology of managing expectations from a financial perspective.

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. Again, I think it's just all about smart money and dumb money, especially when you're planning a wedding. It's like, listen, put your money where it's going to shine the most, what's most important to you. Let's highlight those areas and scale back on the rest. Because, again, coming into wedding planning, if they only have a small amount of budget allocated to this, then we have to figure out what to do with it. If they put a chose a house and a wedding, they wouldn't be our clients right now. It's one or the other. So we have to make sure that we can maximize it in the right way that makes sense for where they're at in their life at that moment.

Nichole Holmes:
Right. And as a real estate agent, I have to listen to what's most important. There's no such thing as a perfect house, and you're never going to find that dream home, when you're on a budget, I should say. You can find it if you're not on a budget. But if you're working with a budget, I just have to take what's most important to them, just like Sarah said she does with the weddings. And if it's a yard that they want it, if it's the extra bedroom so they can have an at home office or the right school system, all of that goes into play and you just have to let them know that, "The list that you gave me isn't possible. I will show you on paper. Here is the house that you're talking about," and show them how much money that is and how much over budget. So then they get it. And it's, again, exactly what you said, it's managing their expectations.

Bobbi Rebell:
You've both been in your field for a substantial amount of time. Nichole, you've been in real estate, I think, full time, for more than a decade. And Sarah, you're about the same, so what's up. But you also have seen the social media evolution and how that has influenced people's expectations. Tell me more about that. I mean, I think we had a donut wall in an episode. And to be fair, you have the wedding shows, but you also have these home shows where people have these dream shows. I mean, really, how has that changed people's expectations in terms of what they prioritize and how far their money will go?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. I think on the show, we did a really good job with keeping in with our budgets. Again, we're not trying to over, I guess, over, what's the word, over show them anything that they really can't afford.

Nichole Holmes:
Over sell them.

Sarah Miller:
Over sell them, yeah exactly. We're trying to meet their expectations, but expanding those areas that were really important to them. So when you refer to the donut wall with that one couple, they wanted something unique that would run through social media. That's their era, their age. They were all about a show-stopping conversation piece at their wedding. So that's where that came in. But, again, I feel like the show in households nowadays helps viewers know that there are certain things that they can't afford. They just need to be open-minded about the other areas if they want their specific things.

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah, and this is Nichole. So when people are house shopping, they do a lot of it online now. So it's a good thing and a bad thing to a realtor.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah.

Nichole Holmes:
Because a lot of those websites that they go to, they aren't updated, and so they think that these homes are available and the market is so hot right now in middle Tennessee and Davidson County, specifically, houses are on the markets for hours and then they get snatched up. And so it's making our jobs as realtors a little bit harder because they will send you this list and you're like, "Well, stick with the list I sent you, because this is what's available. Whatever you're sending me and you're finding, you don't have access to the present, the real time houses." So that can get a little bit tricky.

Bobbi Rebell:
So the show was filmed before the pandemic. And, of course, some of the weddings were affected by the pandemic. A lot's changed, so you're still in touch with a lot of the couples that you worked with. Tell me what's been going on with them. Have there been regrets? Have there been, "Oh, I'm so glad I made that choice because of the pandemic and how I feel now"?

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah. From a real estate side, they're thrilled because housing prices are still going up.

Sarah Miller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nichole Holmes:
They already equity in their home and they've been in for less than a year or about a year at this point. So I don't have any of my couples that chose house that are upset with their decision.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah, this is Sarah. Same thing on the wedding side. I think, again, the pandemic had a lot to do with wedding changes and stress and all of that stuff, but all the weddings from the show, they actually did go through, they just had to shift around a little bit. So, but yeah, I think everybody had an amazing time, and no matter if it was eight people to 100 people.

Bobbi Rebell:
What lessons have you guys learned in this whole process about money and psychology and the emotion of it and the practicality of it?

Nichole Holmes:
I think we learned more negotiating skills-

Sarah Miller:
Than anything.

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah, and it's judging the couples and what's important to them when we make our final pitches at the end of the show. You can see in their eyes, like when Sarah mentioned the donut wall was going to get thrown in, that boy's eyes lit up. He couldn't have been happier had she offered him a million dollars, I think. He was just so thrilled he was going to get the donut wall.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah, we were just talking how amazing of a concept it is. It's so funny because, when I'm planning weddings every single day, the clients aren't saying, "Oh, well, I don't know if I can plan my wedding because we're about to choose a house." So this is great that we actually have to battle for this and really try to figure out what's really important to them and what they want to choose.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because when people see the title, the logical intellectual one goes, "Of course, you would choose a house." But we're not wired that way as humans necessarily.

Sarah Miller:
I agree, and I love that. I get a lot of flack for being the wedding planner. They're like, "How could you? What are you doing?" I'm like, "Listen, love is love. It is what it is." If people didn't choose wedding, it wouldn't be a show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. You each brought a money tip for our financial grownup listeners. Who wants to go first?

Nichole Holmes:
Nichole will.

Sarah Miller:
Good.

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole. So I think it's super important to find a seasoned realtor that knows what they're doing and who has closed a lot of deals, because the negotiations can get intense, especially in a heated market, like it is now. And a good realtor can negotiate and literally save their clients thousands and thousands of dollars by the time it's all said and done.

Bobbi Rebell:
So work with a human, and one that's the right fit for you?

Nichole Holmes:
Oh absolutely. The fun part is finding the house and that's easy. It's after you write the contract and get to the closing table that everything can go sideways. And it does a lot of the time. So you need someone who is seasoned and knows what they're doing to keep everything on track and going in the right direction.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sarah, what's your money tip?

Sarah Miller:
I dido Nichole's thing that she said as well. Hire a professional first. Hire a wedding planner, because going into planning a wedding, number one, you have to have a budget in mind. Number two, hiring a professional is going to save you countless hours over research and time. So if you can start with that and then also jump into it and talk about like your most important parts. Talk about smart money and dumb money. Put your money where you really want it to shine and scale back on those other things.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said. You guys are wonderful. I am waiting, waiting, waiting, and hoping for a season two. In the meantime, where can our listeners catch up with you and see what's going on in the meantime?

Sarah Miller:
Yeah. Hey, this is Sarah. And on Instagram, it is Southern Fine Co. We have a website as well, which is just SouthernFineCo.com.

Nichole Holmes:
And I am on Instagram. This is Nichole, and it's Nichole Holmes Realty. And it's Nichole with an H, N-I-C-H-O-L-E H-O-L-M-E-S Realty.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, ladies. It's been such a pleasure to have both of you. Thank you so much. Continued success, and I hope to have you back celebrating season two very soon.

Nichole Holmes:
Us too. Thank you.

Sarah Miller:
Thank you guys. It was so fun.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friend, let's review some of the tips from the ladies and that we learned from the show. Budgets sometimes can't budge, so sharpen your negotiating skills. The hosts often go to bat for their clients, getting creative deals from vendors and getting home sellers to cut the price when they can. You should always pay people fairly, of course, but there's nothing wrong with advocating for yourself, or frankly, for your clients on everything you can. There are also times when you should not DIY, and that is especially true when there are large sums of money involved. That includes large events and homes. Don't make assumptions about what is right for you at a given stage in life. Don't get FOMO and don't let other people change your mind. Think for yourself. Take the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
As the show contestants do, actually look at the options and really talk it out with people that you care about. And if you look back and feel that you've made the wrong choice, well, you know what? Life goes on. Just like Nichole now has a sense of humor about her two weddings and how she wishes that she had taken the money and used it for something else. The truth is, every time we make a decision about where to allocate money, it is also not going somewhere else. Hopefully, we make the right decision more often than we make the wrong one. But forgive yourself and just move on if you mess up, because we all do. It is part of being a grownup, come on. Another part, celebrating life's grownup milestones. I hope people check out grownupgear.com when you are gift shopping this spring. It's perfect stuff for at graduations, birthdays, engagements, new parents, new home, all the good things.

Bobbi Rebell:
And as a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to Grownup Gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. And maybe we can also call it Financial Independence Day. There are two ways to enter to win. Number one, take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, and tag me at BobbiRebell1. Also, email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips For Financial Grownups Podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot, and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And my close friends and my relatives, by the way, you guys, not eligible. Sorry. Big thanks to Nichole Holmes and Sarah Miller of Netflix's Marriage or Mortgage for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips For Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

The newest star of the hit Bravo series shares specific tips on where to spend your money to get maximum impact in everything from real estate to your career wardrobe. Plus: how they filmed a reality tv series during a pandemic. 

Kirsten’s Money Tips:

Kirsten Jordan:
What I learned the most over the last year and a half is that it's very easy as a working mom to just bulk up on childcare and not bulk up on help anywhere else. And just think that you need to get more childcare so that you can work longer hours and work harder and just be further stretched and be crankier and angrier. And just you have that be your MO, which we've all been there. What I realized as soon as I actually had somebody helping me in the office and actually helping me with the backend of my business, that's when I realized that I don't need to be the one touching everything and doing everything.

Kirsten Jordan:
And why did I wait 12 years to get help at work. That made me be able to leverage myself into the areas that I really enjoy the most and that bring me the most money per hour. But also it made me a lot happier at home because I wasn't focusing on the stuff I didn't like doing. And I think this is a very benign, so elementary basic thing for people who are not entrepreneurs but I think it's very easy when you're an entrepreneur to be like, "I'm going to save money and not hire extra help. I'm just going to think about my bottom line," when it's very hard to scale, virtually impossible to scale, if you're not ready to embrace having some actual help at work as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
That makes so much sense. And people forget, in addition to childcare, you could get someone and it sounds almost luxurious, but to get a personal assistant to do all those errands and maybe then you have less childcare and spend that time with your kids, right.

Kirsten Jordan:
Right. And I have three kids. So for me, it's always the constant struggle. It's trying to figure out how to not only spend more time with my kids but be present when I'm with them, which is one of my main objectives in every area of my life. It is making sure that I am present in whatever I'm doing. So, if it's a podcast, if it's being with my kids, if it's being with clients, if it's meeting a new prospect, it is you get my undivided attention. Then when I'm done with it, I walk away and I'm done with it. The only way to do that, in my opinion, at least at my age, with the amount of kids I have and the amount of stuff I have going on is to get as much stuff off my plate that is not the highest and best use of my time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us a real estate tip that everyone can use.

Kirsten Jordan:
Throughout the country, we are in a sellers market. In order to be able to get any sort of opportunity, pretty much it means being flexible and knowing how much you can spend and how high you can bid. And making sure you evaluate the taxes on the property, your mortgage and what that's going to look like so you really understand what your monthly number is going to be. Because if you find something you really like, it's probably going to be going over the asking price or go to closed bids very, very quickly. So, the key is being ultra prepared when you go to see a property and understanding what you can spend, what that looks like on a monthly basis, speaking to a mortgage broker and being ready to take the advice of the real estate agent as to where to come in.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of young people, instead of starting their jobs in person have started their jobs at home in sweats behind a Zoom camera. And now they're going to go out into the world. Share some tips on how people can present their best selves as we reemerge into the office spaces. Assuming we do, which I think we will, at least to some degree.

Kirsten Jordan:
I completely agree with you. I've been in person with people since June 22nd. So, I have continued to hold myself together and dress up, which I even did during quarantine. I would say it breaks down to three tips. The number one tip is get a uniform for yourself in the sense that you have an idea of what your look is and how you can rotate that. I think people call that a capsule wardrobe. Whatever it is, for me, it's colored blazers. I wear a lot of different colored blazers every day with different kinds of looks. Whether it's a skirt or it's a pair of pants but that's my staple and it makes it really easy for me get out of the house in the morning and feel put together.

Kirsten Jordan:
The second thing is making sure that you have a routine around making sure that you're ready or have an idea of what you're going to wear the next day. It's super cliche but this idea of laying out your clothes like the way that I do with my kids, I think that that saves a lot of time and it really guarantees that you're going to have a nice look every day because spending a ton of time, preparing yourself in the morning is a waste of time because it can be really simplified. And if you stick with looking at the weather the night before, just pulling out an outfit that you plan on wearing and being ready to pull yourself together to get out the door, I think that's super important. And it cuts back on the time that you can spend with this idea of, or the burden of looking really nice every day.

Kirsten Jordan:
And the third thing is making sure that you are dressing for your audience. In New York as a real estate agent, dressing for downtown is different then dressing for uptown. Without over-analyzing it, I do adjust what I'm wearing based on what I have going that day.

Kirsten Jordan:
So, it is really important to value that and remember that people that spend time with you, they can't help but want to have some sort of aspiration about hanging out with you. And that's something I always have believed. I have clients who say to me, "I just love the fact that every single time you show up, you look nice. That's really important because I feel like you'll represent my property better because you're so put together." And you know what? That is something that I've gotten used to doing every single day since I was 10 years old. And it has gotten me really, really far. You just can't discount it.

Follow Kirsten!

• LinkedIn

• YouTube

• Instagram - @kirsten.jordan

• Facebook - @kirstenjordanfarsura

• Kirsten’s website - https://kirstenjordan.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Bobbi Rebell:
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Bobbi Rebell:
I have clients who say to me, "I just love the fact that every single time you show up, you look nice. That's really important because I feel like you'll represent my property better because you're so put together." And you know what? That is something that I've gotten used to doing every single day since I was 10 years old and it has gotten me really, really far. You just can't discount it.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome everyone to, Money Tips for Financial Grownups. This week's guest said what some people might not like to hear but is so true in grownup land. How you present absolutely matters. It can make all the difference, frankly, when it comes to how successful you are in life. That is just one of the no BS money tips that Kirsten Jordan, the new breakout star of Million Dollar Listing New York on Bravo shares in our interview.

Bobbi Rebell:
A reminder, we have deconstructed the podcast just a bit. So, the conversation is more free flowing and you get maximum money tips. Listen for the sound throughout the episode and you'll get what I mean. All right, let's talk about Kirsten Jordan. Her day job is selling extremely expensive real estate at Douglas Element in Manhattan. But just before the pandemic, she joined the cast of Bravo's Million Dollar Listing New York. We talk about what it was like to film during the pandemic and her secrets to getting all those lucrative real estate deals. So many of you loved our episode with her co-star Ryan Serhant, you will adore Kirsten, AKA, KJ as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here is Kirsten Jordan.

Bobbi Rebell:
Kirsten Jordan, you're a financial grownup. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.

Kirsten Jordan:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Million Dollar Listing New York, just debuted. How exciting is this after filming in a pandemic all this time in secret?

Kirsten Jordan:
It has been a roller coaster because I started filming in the beginning of 2020. So, it was January of 2020. And here we are in May of 2021 and it's finally aired. We weren't allowed to film. So, everything was home footage. Then when we started up again at the end of July, there was major protocols in place to even start doing that. So, it was really just a very jarring stop. And then it was, you know, we're going to take a bunch of footage because I think we all were taking footage of our homes in general. And there's no secret about that.

Kirsten Jordan:
All of us were taking footage just because it was fun and interesting to record history. And then of course that was something that potentially could have been used. And then it got started again and it just hit the ground running when the real estate market wasn't really up and running fully yet in the sense that we were allowed to show but we weren't really... People weren't back and ready yet. They were really just not focused on real estate yet. They were just like, "Wow, I can't believe things are open again. Is it really safe to come see an apartment?"

Bobbi Rebell:
It's almost like this is really going to be a behind the scenes documentary of a two layer thing. It's what was happening in real estate but also what happens on a reality TV show when a pandemic hits.

Kirsten Jordan:
Right. And we weren't the only show that tried to figure out ways to be able to get footage during COVID. A lot of those shows have closed sets or able to shoot during a very specific time period where clearly, because ours is truly reality of following us around and seeing what properties we're pitching and we're selling, it's just much, much more complicated.

Bobbi Rebell:
The thing I love about you is you have already, before the show, you have a huge presence giving very no BS tips about the real estate market. We're going to get to those in just a minute but I want to hear what tips you picked up from your co-stars on the show when filming Million Dollar Listing New York.

Kirsten Jordan:
What you learned from the other cast members is they have been doing it longer than I have and they're very successful. I would say that I've learned how to be able to take it with a grain of salt and be able to have tension with them because I think we all are really competitive. And so, for me in the beginning, the hardest part was the fact that we all are going to be competing with each other because we do overlap anyway. That's just how the nature of the business is. This is a competitive industry. And so, I have a lot of tension with Tyler, a lot of tension with Frederick and you see that on the show. And I think for me, that was the first time I had something like this, where it's normal to have this in the industry but then this idea of like, "Oh, wow. And then everybody's watching." It took me a little bit to get used to.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, tell me what tips do you have for our grownup listeners?

Kirsten Jordan:
What I learned the most over the last year and a half is that it's very easy as a working mom to just bulk up on childcare and not bulk up on help anywhere else. And just think that you need to get more childcare so that you can work longer hours and work harder and just be further stretched and be crankier and angrier. And just you have that be your MO, which we've all been there. What I realized as soon as I actually had somebody helping me in the office and actually helping me with the backend of my business, that's when I realized that I don't need to be the one touching everything and doing everything.

Kirsten Jordan:
And why did I wait 12 years to get help at work. That made me be able to leverage myself into the areas that I really enjoy the most and that bring me the most money per hour. But also it made me a lot happier at home because I wasn't focusing on the stuff I didn't like doing. And I think this is a very benign, so elementary basic thing for people who are not entrepreneurs but I think it's very easy when you're an entrepreneur to be like, "I'm going to save money and not hire extra help. I'm just going to think about my bottom line," when it's very hard to scale, virtually impossible to scale, if you're not ready to embrace having some actual help at work as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
That makes so much sense. And people forget, in addition to childcare, you could get someone and it sounds almost luxurious, but to get a personal assistant to do all those errands and maybe then you have less childcare and spend that time with your kids, right.

Kirsten Jordan:
Right. And I have three kids. So for me, it's always the constant struggle. It's trying to figure out how to not only spend more time with my kids but be present when I'm with them, which is one of my main objectives in every area of my life. It is making sure that I am present in whatever I'm doing. So, if it's a podcast, if it's being with my kids, if it's being with clients, if it's meeting a new prospect, it is you get my undivided attention. Then when I'm done with it, I walk away and I'm done with it. The only way to do that, in my opinion, at least at my age, with the amount of kids I have and the amount of stuff I have going on is to get as much stuff off my plate that is not the highest and best use of my time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us a real estate tip that everyone can use.

Kirsten Jordan:
Throughout the country, we are in a sellers market. In order to be able to get any sort of opportunity, pretty much it means being flexible and knowing how much you can spend and how high you can bid. And making sure you evaluate the taxes on the property, your mortgage and what that's going to look like so you really understand what your monthly number is going to be. Because if you find something you really like, it's probably going to be going over the asking price or go to closed bids very, very quickly. So, the key is being ultra prepared when you go to see a property and understanding what you can spend, what that looks like on a monthly basis, speaking to a mortgage broker and being ready to take the advice of the real estate agent as to where to come in.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of young people, instead of starting their jobs in person have started their jobs at home in sweats behind a Zoom camera. And now they're going to go out into the world. Share some tips on how people can present their best selves as we reemerge into the office spaces. Assuming we do, which I think we will, at least to some degree.

Kirsten Jordan:
I completely agree with you. I've been in person with people since June 22nd. So, I have continued to hold myself together and dress up, which I even did during quarantine. I would say it breaks down to three tips. The number one tip is get a uniform for yourself in the sense that you have an idea of what your look is and how you can rotate that. I think people call that a capsule wardrobe. Whatever it is, for me, it's colored blazers. I wear a lot of different colored blazers every day with different kinds of looks. Whether it's a skirt or it's a pair of pants but that's my staple and it makes it really easy for me get out of the house in the morning and feel put together.

Kirsten Jordan:
The second thing is making sure that you have a routine around making sure that you're ready or have an idea of what you're going to wear the next day. It's super cliche but this idea of laying out your clothes like the way that I do with my kids, I think that that saves a lot of time and it really guarantees that you're going to have a nice look every day because spending a ton of time, preparing yourself in the morning is a waste of time because it can be really simplified. And if you stick with looking at the weather the night before, just pulling out an outfit that you plan on wearing and being ready to pull yourself together to get out the door, I think that's super important. And it cuts back on the time that you can spend with this idea of, or the burden of looking really nice every day.

Kirsten Jordan:
And the third thing is making sure that you are dressing for your audience. In New York as a real estate agent, dressing for downtown is different then dressing for uptown. Without over-analyzing it, I do adjust what I'm wearing based on what I have going that day.

Kirsten Jordan:
So, it is really important to value that and remember that people that spend time with you, they can't help but want to have some sort of aspiration about hanging out with you. And that's something I always have believed. I have clients who say to me, "I just love the fact that every single time you show up, you look nice. That's really important because I feel like you'll represent my property better because you're so put together." And you know what? That is something that I've gotten used to doing every single day since I was 10 years old. And it has gotten me really, really far. You just can't discount it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm definitely on the KJ bandwagon that we start dressing up a little bit more.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Million Dollar Listing New York is now out on Bravo. So, everyone needs to be watching that. Where can people find out more about you, KJ?

Kirsten Jordan:
I have a website. It's called www.KirstenJordan.com. There you can find all of my press. You can also find all of the videos that I've created, all of my blogs and then you can click through. And then there's a way to get to my real estate website, of course, which is the www.KirstenJordanTeam.com that has all of my real estate listings. And then it also has all the historical sales that I've done. So, you can do a deep dive there as well. And then of course you can find me on Instagram @Kirsten.Jordan.

Kirsten Jordan:
If you look on Bravo's website, which is www.bravotv.com, there's a ton of stuff there too that shows what we're going to be doing on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the show is amazing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Kirsten Jordan:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys enjoyed listening to that interview as much as I enjoy talking to Kirsten. Let's review a little bit of what we learned from her. When I asked her what she learned from her co-stars, Kirsten was honest. They are her peers but they're also the competition. And that doesn't mean you don't like them. It doesn't mean you don't get along with them but it is something to think about when you collaborate in your career. Sometimes there's only one winner. Make sure it's you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another tip. Protect your time. That means thinking not just about outsourcing things like childcare if you're a parent, but maybe other things like your personal to-do list. So, you get to spend time doing what you want. That might be with your kids if you're a parent or if you're a parent, maybe that's not spending time with your kids and doing something else. Whatever it may be, you can free up your time. Think about how you allocate your resources and really make sure they reflect your priorities.

Bobbi Rebell:
When it comes to real estate, run the numbers before you fall in love with a property and listen to the professionals that you hire. You are paying them for their expertise. Get your money's worth.

Bobbi Rebell:
Kirsten also had great general advice about being successful in your career or in your business. First of all, she talks about coming up with a consistent look. Get your outfit ready for the next day. So, you don't waste time in the morning. It will really lower your stress levels. Dress for your audience. People hire people that they think have their act together. How you present yourself is often the first and biggest indicator, if that is true. Like it or not. Just saying.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so excited to watch the Million Dollar Listing New York season unfilled. Kirsten is a total star and I am so grateful that she took the time to be part of this podcast and share with all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Make sure you follow her on all the socials and definitely check out the show. And if you are an M D L N Y super fan like me, DM me and tell me what you think of this season. I want to hear from you guys, seriously. I'm a little obsessed. I am @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram. Also, please support the show by checking out and hopefully making some purchases on www.grownupgear.com for all the gifts you need this spring. Including graduations, bridal showers, engagement parties and of course, M D L N Y viewing parties because really guys, what is more grown-up than being able to watch as much high quality, reality TV as you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
And in fact, next week, we're going to have the stars of another one of my favorite reality TV shows on. The ladies from the Netflix hit series, Marriage or Mortgage, Nichole Holmes and Sarah Miller. I have a lot to say about this show and the ladies really dish with some fantastic insider moments and money tips.

Bobbi Rebell:
Until next week. Big thanks to Million Dollar Listing New York's, Kirsten Jordan for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
The financial grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Saven is our Talent Coordinator and Content Creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes. You can get for every show, right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell:
Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to www.BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our grownup gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Certified Financial Planner shares his advice on how to get your finances ready for the future including some unconventional advice that you likely have not heard before, and how to face tough money choices. 

5 Tips to Figure Out Your Financial Future

1. Don’t spend more than you make

2. Pay yourself first

3. Establish an emergency fund

4. Think long term

“This is going to sound crass but don’t go to your friends because they know very little more than you do, so this is one area where you need to go to experts”
-Brian Ursu, author of Now What? on getting investing advice”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Brian talked about the importance of educating yourself- and that friends are not always the best sources - because they are not experts. . But friends CAN be a great motivator- so consider choosing a book about money to read with your friends and discuss. it can be Brian’s or you can go through my author interviews here on the podcast, or- just ask friends what they like. But read books that resonate and then get together -socially distanced or virtually and have that conversation as peers.

“Your future self gets here a lot quicker than you had planned or thought about.”

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Brian talked about the app that makes you look older- and how it gets us to think about our future self. After you do that- go pull up a picture of younger you- and think about how you see money differently with the grownup life experience you have now had.

“I never in my wildest dreams thought of a global pandemic as a reason to have an emergency fund but here we are.”

Episode Links:

• Brian’s website - www.brianursu.com

Follow Brian!

• Instagram - @nowwhat240

• Facebook - @Nowwhatthebook

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.