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4 Investing Half-Truths + advice for 2023 with Kirk Chishol
4 Investing Half-Truths + advice for 2023 with Kirk Chishol
 

Episode Description: Kirk Chisholm of Innovative Advisory Group and the host of the Money Tree podcast shares some controversial viewpoints that may have grownups questioning the market assumptions we take for granted.

Timestamps & Main Points:

  • 00:00- Introduction

  • 06:56 - Half Truth #1

  • 07:30 - Cash is trash

  • 09:09 - Half Truth #2

  • 11:26 - Half Truth #3

  • 11:52 - Where do people invest?

  • 13:45 - Diversification is volatility management.

  • 15:45 - Half Truth #4


Kirk’s Bio:

Kirk Chisholm is a wealth manager and principal at Innovative Advisory Group, Host of the Money Tree Investing Podcast and all around interesting guy. He is an outside the box thinker who provides a different perspective on many commonly held beliefs in personal finance. He has a rare expertise with alternative investments held in self-directed IRAs which has helped many investors invest in their passion. Kirk was recently recognized as one of the top 100 most influential financial advisors in the US by Investopedia.

 
 

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:

Hey grownup friends. There is something I don't talk about publicly that I have decided to start sharing, even though it can be a bit embarrassing, I get digital overload and it stresses me out for good reason. Because when you have so much junk on your computer, because you're not as organized as you should be, because you get caught up in all the things that you have to do. If you don't deal with it, all that stuff on your computer starts to really slow things down and can become a total drag on your productivity. For me, there is nothing worse than finally motivating to get stuff done, only to be derailed by a sluggish computer that is just not cooperating. A little while ago I decided I was going to stop just kind of hoping that things would get better and I was going to deal with it.

I downloaded something called CleanMyMac. It's from a company called MacPaw. I was skeptical but I took a deep breath and I tried it. Long story short, it totally worked. I loved how I could see it work through my files with clear and easy to understand graphics. I could see what was messing things up, and CleanMyMac would ask me for my okay before deleting files, so that something I did need to keep didn't go bye-bye. That was one of my biggest fears. I recently reached out to the company and they are offering 10% off to my financial grownup listeners who want to also get CleanMyMac. To get that 10% off CleanMyMac, you do need to go to my link. It is bobbirebell.com/cleanmymac, B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L dot C-O-M/cleanmymac. And that is all one word. I promise you, you'll be so happy. I want you guys to be in touch with me. Let me know how it goes. You deserve to lower the stress of data overload. Trust me. So worth it.

Kirk Chisholm:

Diversification's not really protecting you. Diversification is volatility management. Risk management doesn't work because the markets have changed in the last 20 years where now big selloffs affect everything including bonds. So that's why you have to be aware. You can't just diversify and say, "I'll be okay." Because this year, stocks, bonds, everything was down similarly. So you really weren't protected by diversifying.

Bobbi Rebell:

Your listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups. Because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together we got this.

This interview was like a punch to the gut. I'm still processing it, my friends. As you heard in the clip at the top of the episode, my guest has some very strong opinions about how we see the market, how we approach investing and maybe now with the market having such a rough year, now is the time to take a step back and really reexamine so many of the market truth that we just take for granted, and I'm in there. I take a lot of things for granted, things like buy and hold and don't miss the best 10 days of the market, things like that. Things we talk about and we just assume are great investing advice. But maybe not. Kirk Chisholm runs Innovative Advisory Group. You may also know him as the host of the Money Tree podcast. Kirk has been in the investment advisory business for decades, and he's developed perspectives that you may or may not agree with. But I can assure you, you want to hear. I'm still processing, as I said, a lot of what he said, but Kirk really made me think about things that I took for granted and at least question why do I take them for granted. I have a big takeaway I'm going to save it for after the interview here is Kirk Chisholm.

Kirk Chisholm, you are a financial grownup. I am so happy to finally, finally, finally have you on the podcast. So welcome.

Kirk Chisholm:

Thank you for having me on, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:

For disclosure, the reason I'm laughing so much is this is actually our fourth attempt. Most of our failures were because I have had various illnesses highlighted by a wonderful experience with COVID. We've also had some technical issues. So we are finally here and I'm so excited to get it done and have you on the podcast and I'm going to be on your wonderful podcast, the Money Tree at some point in 2023, you also have a firm called Innovative Advisory Group as well is a great investment option for many people. Tell us a little bit about that and your philosophy and then we're going to get into investing half-truths.

Kirk Chisholm:

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks Bobbi. Thanks for having me on the show. I love your show by the way, so your listeners are very lucky to have you.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you.

Kirk Chisholm:

Yes. So basically I've been in the industry for about 23 years and I started in the broker dealer side at Paine Webber, back when it was Paine Webber, then UBS, and Smith Barney, and then decided to go out my own because I just didn't see the value of the big firms. There was a time where they did have them, but then at everyone was a little bit more the same. So it just didn't have the same value. So what we did is 2008, we've started Innovative Advisor Group with the idea that you could have outside the box strategies. Because most of the industry is very regimented and it's very kind of inside the box. You have to do these things in a certain way and that's not how investing works. Talk to any real estate investor, they put all their money in real estate, they don't touch the stock market. Why should they? Right? If they know invest in what they know as Peter Ellens used to say.

So we focused on investing outside the market, in alternatives inside of retirement accounts. And of course we do traditional strategies, but I think the alternative stuff is really fascinating because some of the best investments we've seen have been on the alternative side.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you do specialize in alternative investments I should say. You mentioned 2008, here we are in closing up 2022 as we record this both very, let's call them interesting years for investing. Certainly challenging in a time when it makes sense to sort of reexamine the things that we sometimes take for granted when it comes to investing. And we're going to get through some of them, which is for example, always buy and hold is the way to go or that printing money always causes inflation. These are sort of what you call investing half-truths, and I'm excited to hear your perspective on them because I like many people do take these things as sort of the way to go and the standard advice that may not always hold up as our world is evolving. So we're heading into 2023, we're going to talk about some of the investing half-truths as you like to call them. The first one is cash is dangerous. Tell us about that.

Kirk Chisholm:

There's a steam in the financial, I don't know, if just the zeitgeist, there's the whole industry talks about how when you have high inflation cash is dangerous. Why? Well, if you have high inflation, your cash should be worth a lot less next year. And then they tried out this chart, which is 100-year chart which says, "Hey, in early 1900s, cash is worth a dollar and now it's worth 3 cents in the dollar." Wow, that's really scary. Well, I don't know anybody who kept cash for 100 years. That to me seems ridiculous, right? So you have people like Ray Dalio who says cash is trash, and over long-terms, he's right. But short-terms, it's different. If you look at up to the third quarter of this year, 2022, the S&P 500 was down 25%. The Nasdaq, 33. 30-Year US Treasuries are down 30%. Safe bonds, right? Down 30%.

Real estate, 30%. Gold, 8.4. How much was your cash down? Zero. If anything it made a little money but you weren't getting much in interest. Call it zero, okay. Being generous. So we had 8.2% inflation at some point. Now at 7.7. If you look at the real returns, which is inflation adjusted, so instead of the S&P 500 being down 25%, it's down 32%. The Nasdaq instead of 33, it's down 41, Treasury is down 38, gold down 16, cash is down 8.2, which one performed the best?

Bobbi Rebell:

Cash.

Kirk Chisholm:

It's still cash, right? And here's the framework you need to take away from this. It's not that cash is good or bad during inflation. It's that inflation affects every single asset class equally. So those math nerds out there, if something affects both sides of the equation equally, you can remove it. So when we look at returns, we don't look at inflation because it doesn't matter, what is the nominal return is really what matters because if cash is the best performer, and you're down 8.2%, that's still the best performer. Just because you have inflation doesn't mean you're going to make money. It just means it's the best of the bad options.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. So let's move on to the next investing half-truths. This one I totally buy into. You always have to be invested. Obviously later in life when you're taking money out of your savings, that's different. But for the most part, most of us when we're in the investing accumulation and growth stage, I've always been told, after you have your emergency fund, you need to be invested. The money should not be sitting in cash, to contrary of what we just talked about. Tell us about that. Why is that a half-truth?

Kirk Chisholm:

There's this theme of you always have to be invested. This has been around for decades. And the reason was if you look back in the '80s and the '90s and some of the 2000s, if you were always invested, the market would just go up. It's kind of this buy and hold kind of theme. Oh, you just be invested and it'll continue to go up. And I think what that does is it kind of dumbs down the aspect of investing that's really important, which is understanding what you're in. So if you just think the market's going up 7% or 8% a year because you're in the market, then you're going to be disappointed. So from 2000 to 2013, you basically lost money for 13 years and it was up and down. But January of 2000, till July of 2013, you would've lost 30 basis points a year during that time.

It wasn't until after July that actually you broke even. That's 13 years of lost time. So yeah, you could have been invested in the market but you wouldn't have made money from that start to point. Now, there was a ton of volatility, just like we're having now. And think of it this way. So from the peak of 2007 until the bottom of 2009, you lost about 58 and a half percent, if you were in the S&P 500, okay? That's not a small number. Now, think of you were in cash, how much did you lose? Zero. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:

Right.

Kirk Chisholm:

Now your cash just made you 100% return because you can buy twice as much of that S&P 500 shares as you could have year prior.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. But if we told everyone to just put all of your money in cash, for the majority of people, that would not work out well, because the truth is over time it has been proven that your money does increase more if it is invested, especially if it's diversified. One of your other half-truths that I'm obviously segueing into is that diversification manages risk. We've always been told be diversified. And I know many people think that investing in an index is diversification. That's not always true. It absolutely depends on how diversified that index is, right? Tell me why you feel this is a half-truth, that diversification manages risk.

Kirk Chisholm:

Yeah, and I want to address one quick point before we get into that which you mentioned, which is where do people invest? This is really hard. I'm giving you these mental models so that you can understand how the markets work. I'm not telling you to be in cash or stocks. I think that's important because if you're doing one thing and you never change your mind, then you're going to eventually be wrong even if you're right most times. So the whole diversification strategy that you mentioned, diversification, people have always looked at this, actually diversification started as an academic study. It was never intended for Wall Street, but what Wall Street realized is, "Hey, if we have diversification and it reduces risk, then we can sell more mutual funds." That's how this started. This wasn't like an academic proven positive thing that works all the time. It was a theory that people said, "Hey, this looks good enough to sell mutual funds to people."

Diversification actually does a really good job at reducing volatility. Now volatility is this up and down, you see any given day or week, it reduces volatility because in normal times it gives you a smoother ride. Some things go up, some things go down. But overall it's going to have a smoother ride in a direction you hope you're going. Now the problem is when it doesn't work. 2008, 2017, 2020, 2022, there's a difference between risk and volatility. Volatility is this up and down movement. Risk is what we call a permanent impairment of capital, which like 2008, dropping close to 60% is a permanent impairment of capital. Oddly enough, 2020 came back. So that technically would be volatility. But the point is no one wants to lose half their stuff. If you look at 2008, withstanding gold and cash, everything went down 58 and a half percent given a few percentage either way, but 2020 was the same thing.

Virtually everything went down the same. Which means diversification's not really protecting you. Diversification is volatility management. Risk management doesn't work because the markets have changed in the last 20 years. We're now big selloffs affect everything including bonds. So that's why you have to be aware. You can't just diversify and say, "I'll be okay." Because this year, stocks, bonds, everything was down similarly. So you really weren't protected by diversifying. So you just need to be aware of that aspect so that you're not blindly doing this and just saying, "Why did I lose so much money?" It's because it's not a good risk management tool. It's a good volatility management tool.

Bobbi Rebell:

So then what is a good risk management tool?

Kirk Chisholm:

This is where it gets into being hard. I try to think of simple frameworks to give people. The way I've kind of looked at it is you have to have a framework for risk management. Now everyone's different. Some people say, "If it goes down more than 5%, I'm out." But you have to have a more active mentality or you need to find tools like we use Options as a way to manage risk, because I can define the worst case scenario and say, "Nothing will be worse than this no matter what happens in the world." So I like Options as a tool for that, but it's not for everybody. So I'm not saying this is all in one tool for everybody, but you need to find a strategy that is acceptable to you. Now one strategy might be you invest in rental property and that's what you do for a living. You're really smart when it comes to real estate investing.

I have a lot of friends, they do this professionally and they'll always invest in real estate and they know how to manage that. And you're still getting your cash flow, you're still getting your returns, but you need to know what you're investing in. If you're going to be passive, then you need to expect the fact that we could have a period like the early 2000s or the '70s where your returns are lackluster for 10 years.

Bobbi Rebell:

But not everyone can be an expert on those things. Very often we have jobs that there's a reason that all of these investment management firms exist because we have to outsource it. I want to gets back to one half-truth before we run out of time. So an investing half-truth that fascinates me that you talk about is that you have to be invested in order to get the best 10 days. You don't want to miss the best 10 days. I'm not sure if I phrased that correctly, so feel free to correct me.

Kirk Chisholm:

Yeah. So when I started this industry in '99, a whole bunch of wholesalers would go through the office and they would give you all these charts and say, "Here's a chart, you can use this to sell our mutual funds." And it was just weird. But anyway, that's the culture of the broker dealer world. So there's one I kept seeing over and over and over again, is basically if you missed the 10 best days, your performance would be cut in half. Since 1980, if you're invested all the time, your $10,000 would've grown to $700,000. If you missed the 10 best days, it would've been only $341,000. Well that's significant. I should be invested all the time, right?

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah.

Kirk Chisholm:

I mean, that's obvious.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm buying in. Sure.

Kirk Chisholm:

However, if you missed the 10 best days, your performance was lackluster. If you were invested all the time, it was much better. However, if you missed the 10 worst days, you would've doubled the performance than if you had just been invested the whole time. So it's what I call of Wall Street half-truth, where they tell you what you need to know to buy their mutual fund or to buy their narrative. But if you actually look at the numbers, it's not completely true, because missing the 10 best days is incentivizing you to buy something and never sell it, which is Wall Street's preference. But if you were to miss the 10 worst days, which is why we focus on risk management, if you miss the 10 worst days, then you're much better off and you don't have periods of big losses, which is if you invested all the time, like we talked about, you could be down 60% in your portfolio.

That is historically okay, that happens. It's not all the time, but it happens. So you just need to look at the full picture. So the half-truths are about showing you the difference between this little piece over here and the whole rest of the picture, which if you understood, you'd say, "Okay, I can make better decisions now because I understand the scope of what's going on."

Bobbi Rebell:

All right, so what's your best advice heading into 2023 for the average investor? Who is not able to time the market, to miss the worst 10 days and to get the best 10 days, because that's just not realistic for most of us.

Kirk Chisholm:

You should start thinking about your portfolio differently. For example, interest rates have been zero for a very long time, except for now. Now you can get three-month treasuries, which are virtually, if you can't say guaranteed about anything, that's as close as you can get to give you a guarantee of safety. So you can get 4% in change on three-month treasuries, which is great. 4% compared to losing 20%, 30% is pretty nice. So I wouldn't say go all in on bonds, but if you're going to have fixed income in your portfolio, you should look at short-term bonds, three months, maybe even six months at the most. But interest rates are going to keep going up for at least the next six months. So you shouldn't go out too far. But if you can lock in 4%, 5% on a bond for three to six months, I think you're in good shape. Savings bonds are phenomenal. You could get 9.6% I think as of October, now it's, I think 6.8. That's a pretty good yield. Now it's only $10,000 per year per person, but that's still a really good rate.

Bobbi Rebell:

A little more with your tax return if you can, if you get a tax refund.

Kirk Chisholm:

Right. So that's something anybody could do and that's like a no-brainer approach. You're getting a good yield, almost no risk. So it's a good approach. But outside of that, I would just say learn as much as you can and think about valuations. If you look back in the '70s, valuations got so cheap that it was blatantly obvious that it was a good time to buy. It didn't matter if it went up or down from there. It was just things like Warren Buffett made all his money. His best returns were in the late '70s and early '80s because it was just so cheap that things were, you could have just thrown a dart at a board and you could have made money. Right now, it is so expensive that things are more expensive now than they were prior to COVID, and then they were expensive. People were talking about how expensive it was prior to COVID and we're still above those.

So the fact that we've gone down 20% to 30% on the markets, we're not even close to where we should be. So be very careful about your investments. Don't feel like you need to be all in. Don't be afraid to be in cash. Just be more conservative with your investments than you think you should be. Because the one rule that if you take nothing away from this, you should take this away. In a bull market, the idea is to make money. In a bear market, the idea is not to make money. The winner of a bear market is the one who loses the least. Now you might think about that, you think you're crazy, but we're in a bear market. Markets have all been down this year. The one who lost the least is cash. And the cash has still lost 8% into inflation, which means it's still down, but it's lost the least.

So don't think about it as, "I need to make 7% this year." Because you could lose a lot of money. Think about it as, "How can I protect myself? What can I do to be more conservative and lose the least until things change?" And if you want to know when things are going to change, I'll give you an easy framework. Watch the Fed. If they start reducing rates, then you can get a green light to start investing. If as long as they're raising rates, you should keep your foot on the brake, not on the gas.

Bobbi Rebell:

All right, thank you so much Kirk. Where can people find out more about you and be in touch?

Yeah, I'm pretty easy to find. You can find me on Money Tree Investing podcast. It's moneytreepodcast.com is the website. Also, you can find me at innovativewealth.com. That's our website and you can pretty much find me everywhere. I'm pretty easy to find.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never-ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love. But the truth is it's also really hard and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile. So my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, I can't believe you are the grownup either, and new colors and designs of our top selling generosity line. And for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our generosity collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous too, well yourself. Just use code holiday, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. And thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps small projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays guys.

So if you follow me on Instagram or on TikTok, you're going to see some of the video clips where I will look very confused and honestly kind of skeptical. I was. I try to be open-minded with what my guests are saying because there's so much that we can learn from them. And by the way, Kirk is a very smart guy. He made his arguments very well. A lot of what Kirk says makes sense. Maybe I'm just stuck in the things that I take for granted. And I like that he has me questioning them. On the other hand, when he talks about the market going down for years and how it would absolutely be better to have been in cash for those years, of course, so we can buy more at a lower price, of course, sure, but I'm just not smart enough or good enough or whatever, and maybe I don't pay the right people who are smart enough, but I can't identify those years.

And so I'm kind of lost, because someone like me, and many of you I suspect, kind of have to default to being in the market in the bad years so that we can be in the market when the good years come along. That said, I love a good discussion and I totally appreciate Kirk's viewpoints. Hopefully my conversation with Kirk got all of you at least questioning the things that we take for granted, which is something we should always be doing.

If you are not already, please go to my website, which is just my name, bobbirebell.com, or go to the show notes and sign up for my newsletter where I share more useful information for financial grownups and of course DM me. Let me know what you thought about this, and every episode. I am @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and Bobbi Rebell pretty much everywhere else. And of course, also, if you can, please as a little holiday gift to me, consider writing a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast on Apple Podcast. Or if you listen on any other platform that has space for reviews, means a lot to me. And by the way, definitely send me a screen grab of it if you do so. So I can thank you. I also want to thank Kirk Chisholm for helping us all be financial grownups.

Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

You can also leave a review on Apple Podcast. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 

 
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Money Tips for every single day of 2022 with So Money’s Farnoosh Torabi
Money Tips for every single day of 2022 with So Money’s Farnoosh Torabi
 

Treat yourself to the best grownup advice from podcast favorite Farnoosh Torabi. The So Money host and CNET Editor-at-Large joins Bobbi with a preview of her Page a Day Calendar for the new year- including some surprising advice from GirlBoss Sophia Amoruso.

Money Tips

  • Learn from your mistakes so you don’t repeat them

  • Rethink retirement

  • Envision your goals and be specific


 
 

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love, but the truth is it's also really hard. I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you're the grownup, either." And, new colors and designs of our top selling Generosity line. And for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code Holiday, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. And, thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays, guys.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Money advice is not just money advice. It's live advice and I think we need it now more than ever, to help us make big changing decisions around all the things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And, you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. Hard to believe we are in countdown mode to the year 2022. I hope everyone had a good year this part year. Probably better than 2020, right? Anyway, I want everyone to be set up for success and just a really good year. And, what better way than getting advice for each and every day?

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that I've been struggling with this past year has been all the damn screen time. I find myself just wanting to be away from all the glowing screens in my life. So, one thing I got recently was my friend Farnoosh Torabi's new page-a-day calendar. I have it right on my nightstand. It is paper, my friends. It is awesome. I do not have to charge it and it doesn't glow at night, it's just there. The added bonus for all of us is that I was able to get Farnoosh on the podcast, to give us all a proper sneak preview.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for the few of you who do not know who Farnoosh Torabi is, in addition to putting together this lovely little calendar that I'm looking at as I record this, Farnoosh is a longtime financial journalist, content creator, bestselling author. She is also the host of the So Money Podcast, which is literally one of the most successful money podcasts ever, with more than 18 million downloads. She recently licensed the podcast to CNET, where she is now the editor at large. With that, let's get to this interview. Here is Farnoosh Torabi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Farnoosh Torabi, welcome back to the podcast. You're a financial grownup.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Am I, Bobbi? Thank you. That means a lot, coming from you. That's official, I'm a grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is official, in this year, two years I guess, we're losing count, where we're looking at screens so much. It can be so overwhelming. You are saving us all for the new year, because you have the ultimate product that we all need and that is a literal old school page-a-day calendar. It's called So Money: A year of managing your money, your life and your dreams. And, what I love most about this is that it is a physical product, which is something you haven't done before.

Farnoosh Torabi:
No. I've done books. I haven't done a book in forever. I have another one coming out in 2023. Yikes.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But in the meantime, I've got a couple calendars that you can play with. I have this one for 2022, and then I have one for 2023. This is an opportunity to bring what has been a very virtual experience for people, the podcast and then following me on social, in the form of something really tangible. And, that they can gift.

Farnoosh Torabi:
For fans of the show, occasionally they'll write to me and they'll say, "Are you selling a t-shirt or a mug, or something with the words So Money on it? We want to show and express our fandom." I don't have anything in that world. So then, this is it. This calendar is special and it's one of those things where I find that we often need all the inspiration and reinforcement, and this is something that can sit on your desktop, wherever you work, which is probably home now. Or, you can take it with you, gift it. It's handy. And every day, a new piece of wisdom, often derived from the show and the wonderful guests that we've had, or a lot of them are just my own life philosophies.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, so we can't go through all 365 days, but I wanted to give some people the highlights of the highlights. So we're going to play, I don't know, we could call it Calendar Roulette, but it's not really that. We're just going to flip through and we're going to have Farnoosh randomly pick a page.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, stop.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So, I just stopped, this is not going to be in order, obviously. June 29th, it's a Wednesday. By the way, this calendar will also let you know what day of the week it is, which I don't know, it's been pretty hard to-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it blends. It definitely blends sometimes, in this work-from-home life that we have.

Farnoosh Torabi:
A short while ago, I had on the founder of Girlboss, Sophia Amoruso, who has become a friend. It's just funny how the podcast ... Do you ever become friends with your guests?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Farnoosh Torabi:
After they come on the show?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Farnoosh Torabi:
It's not a friend that I ever thought I would have, but when she first came out with the book, which became a New York Times bestseller, I was in awe of her and I tried to get her on the show. She was way too busy for me. And then, I don't know, I just caught her at a good time, she came on the show.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But at this point, she had experienced a lot of public failure, where-

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait. Isn't there a Netflix show? There was definitely some series about her life, which was awesome.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Yeah. It was Charlise Theron produced. Her story is phenomenal. I think she was a college dropout, she was dumpster diving for vintage clothing and all that. And, turned it into an eBay store and earned millions of dollars. And then, turned that into a clothing store called Nasty Gal, and then came up with this Girlboss movement.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Anyhow, Nasty Gal went bankrupt. This was after she was on the cover of Forbes, touted as one of the youngest potential multi-millionaires of our time, self made women. So we talked on the show a lot about that, the ups and the downs, and she was very candid.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So this date, Wednesday the 29th, the title of the wisdom is "Learn From Your Mistakes so That You Don't Repeat Them." It goes on to say that, "Sophia Amoruso is the poster child for a certain type of media backlash. When she started her first business, Nasty Gal, she was a darling of the financial press. Before long, she was routinely being called out for creating less-than-inclusive work environments."

Farnoosh Torabi:
This is true. She got a lot of heat, she almost got canceled.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which, a lot of female founders do get.

Farnoosh Torabi:
They get a disproportionate amount of that, for sure.

Farnoosh Torabi:
"The criticism hurt," she told me on my show. "But it was fair," and she took a lot away from it. "It's an important opportunity for everyone to learn," she said, "when they get negative feedback. It doesn't always feel constructive, but there are ways to make it constructive for yourself."

Farnoosh Torabi:
And, there's a lot to say to that. I think for me, what she's really saying there, at least how it's hitting for me, is that in life, there are going to be challenges and you shouldn't be afraid of the feedback. Look, if we were afraid of feedback, would we be doing what we're doing?

Farnoosh Torabi:
It was hard at first, when I was first starting out working in financial news and giving opinions. And of course, with the internet, it's very easy to give feedback. I was getting a lot of nasty feedback, for things that were not even in my control. People didn't like the way I looked, or the way that I sounded, or the fact that they thought I was not qualified. And my boss told me, he said, "Listen, for every negative comment about you that you receive, there's 100 positive comments that weren't created, that weren't reported because people tend to be more negative than positive."

Farnoosh Torabi:
If you have a bad experience at a restaurant, you're going to write that review on Yelp. Versus a great experience, you might not. You might tell a friend, but you're not going to publicly put it on Yelp.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. Okay, let's do another one.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Okay. Wednesday, September 28th.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Farnoosh Torabi:
"Rethink Retirement. The words we use matter."

Farnoosh Torabi:
In this tip I say, "Rather than saving for 'retirement,' which carries potentially negative connotations ... " And also, whose really retiring? Ron Lieber just wrote in the New York Times about the fact that we're all going to have to work longer, let's just face it. Face the music. Now's a good time to rethink your career, if you aren't happy.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So it says, "Rather than saving for retirement, which carries potentially negative connotations, consider saving for your freedom."

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't know, that's a little scary, too. But okay, go on.

Farnoosh Torabi:
The day in the future when I'll be able to actually call my own shots. This actually, I took this out of the page of NerdWallet's website. But this way, you're not putting away money for a hypothetical life stage you're not sure you'll ever reach. You're saving so that you have flexibility and security when you need it, and that's more enticing.

Farnoosh Torabi:
And if I hard more room, I would probably write that, as you're saving for retirement or whatever you want to call it, to really imagine yourself in that stage of your life. And, actually visualize yourself, what are you doing, what are you wearing, who are you with, where are you hanging out, what does your face look like. They have these studies now, Bobbi-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh yeah, that app.

Farnoosh Torabi:
These simulations where they age you and then they did a test. People who saw their age progressed selves were more likely to save for retirement.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, let's do one more.

Farnoosh Torabi:
All right, one more. Why don't we do ... What's your birthday?

Bobbi Rebell:
January 3rd.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Oh my gosh!

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming up.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Well, that takes us right to almost the beginning. Oh, this is good.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Farnoosh Torabi:
"Envision your goals and be specific. The more details an idea you have of what you want to accomplish this year, the better your chances of actually accomplishing it. Rather than aiming to save more, aim to save $5000 in a high yield savings account by year's end. This gives you a target that you can measure your progress against. And as I always say, goals carry price tags."

Farnoosh Torabi:
If you want to make that sentence even longer and say, "I'm going to save $5000 in a high yield savings account for my daughter's whatever, college," or even something closer, like her tennis camp. Gosh, I'm not there yet. I don't know what tennis camp costs. But, her braces, let's be more practical.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Just the point is, back to that visualization tip, the more you can make real what it is that you're after, one, the more excited you can get. And, the more motivated and consistently you'll save because it's actually this thing, this tangible thing in front of you, as opposed to this abstract, saving just for saving. Decide your why, and then go and try to achieve the goal.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, it has to be something that you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am excited for the next year, with having this physical calendar on my desk. Because like I said, I'm so excited to have something that's not on a screen, and it can inspire me and give me different things to think about. Even if they're just reminders of things I know I should already be thinking about, reminders are really good and they push you to think about what's important to you. So thank you for this calendar. And by the way, it's super affordable, if you are looking for last minute gifts for the holidays.

Farnoosh Torabi:
We have a discount right now, going on. If you go to workman.com and you use the code So Money, you can get 20% off. And, I have a very special offer for anyone who wants to buy multiple copies. Let's say you want to buy 25 or more for your office friends, for your clients, for your extended family. If you want to do that, get in touch with me, I'll get you even a bigger discount. And, I'll show up virtually, for 15, 20 minutes and chat with your book club, your office mates. I've been doing this, so far. It's been fun to make face time with people. But, I'm offering this only until the end of the year, so you've got to get those purchases in and then we can schedule something in the new year.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But, if you're interested in that bulk purchase and having me show up, and talk my mouth off in front of your group, it's farnoosh@somoneypodcast.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You made some very big changes in your professional direction in the year 2021. Tell us your latest news and what you're up to for 2022. Oh my gosh, 2022.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. So much has changed, I'm very excited. I've gone back to my roots of journalism and working in the media biz. And I've joined CNET as editor at large, and will be helping them launch and grow their money vertical. That means writing for them, doing a lot of media for them. We started a YouTube channel, so you go check out YouTube.com/CNETMoney. A newsletter, and the podcast, they're licensing the podcast which means they're helping me grow that, and we'll be integrating some more CNET content into the show.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But, it's an opportunity for me to grow. I don't know about you, but the last 20 months, career wise, was a tremendous inflection point, for I think me and millions of Americans. I personally wanted to work with a team again and feel like I could make more of an impact. And of course, the show, as I mentioned at the top, I'm so blessed. The people just keep coming, it's millions of downloads. But, it's been a weird time and I feel like money advice is not just money advice. It's live advice and I think we need it now, more than ever, to help us make big changing decisions around all the things.

Farnoosh Torabi:
CNET's got an incredibly big, engaged audience so it was just a great partnership. And, they're giving me a lot of freedom to grow and try things, things that I would really do on my own. I tried to start a YouTube channel on my own in the pandemic, didn't work. Who knew you couldn't start a YouTube channel, on top of everything else? Raising your kids, teaching them school, going to work, in the same place, 24 hours a day.

Farnoosh Torabi:
I'm also writing a book, that has nothing and everything to do with money. But, it's really a memoir, big idea, memoir-ish kind of book. Which is a little different for me, because I'm very used to technical writing but it's really making me think and write creatively, about the fears that I grew up with. And, why I don't think that was always such a bad thing. I'm still a very frightened woman, who's very skeptical of a lot of things, but I get stuff done. And, I have to think that there's a connection there, that my fears have actually come out to work in my favor. But at the same time, I think there's also just panic and that's not what we want to have.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So the book is really about how to be smart and emotionally intelligent about the fears that you experience, and recognizing what ones are worth paying attention to and what ones we need to kick to the curb. But, this idea that we need to ignore our fears or run away from our fears, I have a different philosophy. I feel like we should really embrace them in some ways, because I think it can help us to get closer to what we define as success and that's different for everybody.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But, looking forward to finishing that. As you know, it's hellish when you're in the midst of ... I always like having written and I like going to book parties, but this process is like pulling teeth a little bit. But, it's good for me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I can't wait to read it. You're such an inspiration. Thank you so much.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, friends, I hope you guys enjoyed that interview as much as I did. Farnoosh really is the best. Such a generous, lovely person, I love having her on. We barely got into all of the incredible nuggets of wisdom in her calendar, but I am really into it.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, she is doing another one for 2023, so it's going to keep going on. The great thing is, like I said, paper, no screen. By the way, it's recycled paper so it is eco-friendly, all the good stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do not forget to get that discount code that Farnoosh so generously gave us. It's So Money, when you order it on the Workman Publishing Page. You can also, by the way, get that info on my website, in the show notes. It's just my name, bobbirebell.com. Where like I said, you've got show notes, summarizing every episode. Also, full transcripts all there, just for you.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, big almost end of year thank you to Ashley Wall, our producer who puts that together, all of the show notes, so well. She also puts the quote boards that we use on social media into the show notes, so you can see highlights of the interviews from all of our guests.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, if you're wondering what I'm talking about, I post them also, sometimes on Instagram, but pretty much always on Twitter. I'm going to do more Instagram in the new year, so follow me on Instagram. That is Bobbi Rebell and the number one. And also, on Twitter, that's just my name. It's easier, just Bobbi Rebell. B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L. Even though I definitely get tired of the screen time, I am going to be on social media much more in the new year, with a lot of great stuff. DM me if you follow me on either platform, so that I know to follow you back and I know your part of our Grownup community.

Bobbi Rebell:
In the meantime, get yourself set up for the new year with the So Money page-a-day calendar. You're going to be really happy you did. It's just really calming and I feel like it's a nice thing to wake up to something inspirational in the morning. So big thanks to my friend, Farnoosh Torabi, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Steward. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes, to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what, it really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Authors, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Role Models, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanFarnoosh Torabi, Editor At Large, CNET, So Money, Podcast, Podcast Host, Calendar, Farnoosh Inspiration, Highlight Reel
Money Tips to Avoid Financial Chaos with Micro-Empires’ Jennifer Grimson
Money Tips to Avoid Financial Chaos with Micro-Empires’ Jennifer Grimson

Our grownup lives sometimes take a turn for the worst at the time we least expect it. Jennifer Grimson experienced it all from filing for bankruptcy twice, becoming AirBNB pro and making some tough decisions to downsize her family's lifestyle in order to become a millionaire. 

Jennifer-Grimson-Main-Instagram-Micro-Empires-Podcast.png

Jennifer’s Money Story + Money Tips To Handle Financial Chaos

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, yes I have. So have many people. So my story is that I lost everything twice. So no job, no car, no place to live, two kids to raise, and chapter 13 bankruptcy. And that happened to me twice, once at the age of 29 and once at the age of 41, and the second time that it happened, I realized that I needed to do something to rebuild in a way that would protect me. So for me, that meant building small pockets of wealth, finger quotes, and security. And that's what the show that I have, which is called Micro Empires, is about, is just basically creating these small pockets so that if anything is taken away, you aren't left completely empty handed and at a loss of what to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those two bankruptcies, different stories each time, give us just a little sense of what caused those, because a lot of people go, well, how did that happen? I mean, the first time you had a one and a three-year-old. What happened?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, the bankruptcies were are actually caused by the same thing, but how it happened to me was that I was in a very contentious divorce. So my ex-husband sued me twenty-five times in 10 years, and I amassed over $500,000 in attorney's fees. And I can go into great detail about that, but I don't think we have time for it, but in my case, it wasn't that I purchased a home and went in upside down, or I bought expensive cars, or had terrible spending habits. It's that I was running from somebody who was punishing me financially through the court system, which is another entire story altogether.

Jennifer Grimson:
But chapter 13 was a way for me to escape the lawsuits, and the first one helped me preserve the home that I lived in. So it was probably the first lesson I got in there are tools out there for you to use to help you financially. Now, chapter 13 bankruptcy is no fun. You pay your creditors back. Your credit is ruined for 10 years. You have to live on cash. It is not a great existence, but it did release me from lawsuits. So I did that not only once, but twice. But on top of everything, the second time I found myself without anything, no car, no job, no place to live. What I had done then was to turn my financial wellbeing over to someone else, namely the person that I was in a relationship with, so that when that relationship ended, I was really left with nothing.

Jennifer Grimson:
And as shameful as I felt that was, I decided a year ago, when I decided to start the show, that I would share the story because I knew I wasn't the only one. I think women do it more than men. I think it happens a lot, and there's a lot of shame in it when really the shame should be honestly on the other person, who's kind of not being fair about that. But at any rate, it taught me a hard, hard lesson and I really didn't get the message until I was about 41, that no matter what I did, I was going to have to rebuild in a different way than I had done in the past.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now it is a decade after that second bankruptcy. Just to catch people up, you became a real estate investor.

Jennifer-Grimson-Twitter-Quote-#1-Micro-Empires-Podcast.png

Jennifer Grimson:
Yes, I did. So from 41 years old, the following three years it took me to correct my credit, which is a journey in and of itself. And then the first thing I did was to purchase a home, which was a miracle. And I walk through how I made that happen. And then through house hacking and short term rental, in four years, I created $1.4 million in income producing investments.

Jennifer Grimson:
And there's a reason they're called income producing investments. I didn't have $1.4 million. I had mortgages, I had overhead, I had all of the things, but what I had done was created, I actually had three properties that were Airbnb. And those properties all had their own incomes, their own empires, on top of a corporate job. So that way, I had at least four areas of income, and then I created other areas of income, as well. So I kept creating these little pockets of income.

Jennifer Grimson:
And then that's morphed. I've moved into investing into multi-family and other things. But again, by using tools, tools that I had at the ready. So I didn't realize, when I rebuilt the second time, I did it with a W-2 really and some grit. So other than that, I mean, I didn't have a great investment that I made a ton of money off of or anything like that. I simply just used the tools at hand, which are part of why I want to do the show, to share what's available to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know you don't do Airbnb investing right now, but just quickly, give us some insider secrets and tips for getting started with Airbnb. What did you learn there?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, I learned a lot. So first and foremost, I started doing it in 2014 in Nashville, Tennessee, where no one was doing it at the time. And that was a great time to do it. So my advice to anybody is anytime you see an opportunity, and maybe it's something new and edgy, and you're willing to take the risk, and risk, you know, I talk about risk a lot, it has to be a risk that you're comfortable with, I say, go for it. I needed to do everything in micro steps. Also part of why I do the things the way that I do. I'm not a huge risk taker.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I had my home. I started renting it out on the weekends through Airbnb and quickly realized that this could be a real way for me to not only cover my mortgage and expenses, but a way for me to create an income. My best advice for people, if you're getting involved in Airbnb and you're just starting out and you're just a normal person, like you're not a person who has hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank or millions to lose, I say, go find an emerging market and buy a really, really affordable home. Your money in real estate is made on the purchase. So if you purchase high, you're not really probably going to make a lot of money off it, no matter what your plan is with it. You've got to find a way to purchase low.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I purchased in evolving neighborhoods. I took a chance in that. And I went ahead and lived in the properties, which allowed me to get in there for very little money. I furnished them myself. I managed them myself, until such time that they were up and running and I was able to hire other people to do that. Those would be my basic tips on Airbnb. I could talk about that forever, but those are sort of the basics.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hands-on first, then hand it off. Okay, so that was a nice little bonus tangent for everybody. But the real reason I asked you to come on was to tell us your tips on how to handle financial chaos, which of course has to start with actually recognizing financial chaos. Like, there was a cereal incident in your car, with your children.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. So financial chaos is a really sad, scary place to live and to be. And I lived in it for many, many years, and I didn't know what I was living in. I like to describe it to people, I have this metaphor, like imagine you're living in a home, there's no lights in the home, and it's a hoarder. You're living in a home with a hoarder, and there's all this stuff piled up, but you don't know it's there, but you feel like something's wrong. You're not really sure what it is.

Jennifer Grimson:
And one day, someone turns the light switch on and you see all of the chaos, all of the mayhem, and that person who's creating it, whether it's you or potentially your partner, runs over and shuts that light off, and says, "Oh, never mind, never mind." You can't unsee it. So in my case, I lived in a situation where I was, to simplify it, I was a saver and my ex-husband was a spender. He had a lot of emotional attachment to money and how it made him feel. And we were living in absolute dire straights, things like he would get angry if I bought the generic brand cereal. We were so broke, I was bouncing checks to buy groceries. I would go to three different grocery stores to find the best deals.

Jennifer Grimson:
I took my children shopping one night, like I did normally, so I had them with me in the evening, little babies in diapers, in and out of the car. We'd go to three different grocery stores to save the money. And then on the way home, we're in California on Highway 101, I pull over on the side of the road, I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos. You're risking your entire life to keep someone happy about something that has to really do with money and your relationship with money. So that's financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
And when I talk to people about their money, and it's very, very personal. People will tell you about their sex lives before they'll tell you about their money, which is kind of crazy, but they'll explain things to me that they've become accustomed to because they've been living in it for so long. But that is sort of the truth of it, and recognizing it, as well. My advice is to look at, do you have a shared approach to money? Do you and your partner have a shared approach? Do you find it really difficult to go without the nice to haves? Or does your partner? Do you feel sick whenever you have to talk about money? And then examining what wealthy might mean to you, also a good tool in figuring out where you are on the money spectrum.

Bobbi Rebell:
Once we've identified that we are in financial chaos, which probably more of us are in than we realize, give us some tips to calm that financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, if you're in a partnership with someone who is creating the chaos, and it's not yourself, because sometimes it could be yourself, and there's a little test that I offer in the episode that I did this week, but probably the first thing is to sit down and have a conversation with that partner. Chances are, that may not go well if you've never had a conversation before, and there are therapists and books and things that can help you with that, but it's really taking a hard look at your own relationship with money. I happen to call it money culture, and I have a free ebook, as well, that walks you through like where are you with money and how do you feel and why do you do the things that you do?

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Jennifer Grimson:
Hopefully if you can sit down and have a conversation with a partner and that person is able to come to grips with their own relationship with money, perhaps saying, "Yeah, I do these things because it makes me feel loved," or, "I didn't get this as a child," or, "It makes me feel like a better person when I have expensive things," you can start to work through that and come up with a plan together about how money is tied directly to identity and security. And so examining that and looking at it as a whole and saying is our identity more important than our security? Do we have to have a Mercedes-Benz outside and a really expensive house that we can't afford? Or is it better for us to have a little bit less and feel safe? That's what it is for me, anyway. I have to feel safe when it comes to money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a lot of us feel that way. So that's if a partner's involved. What if it's on you? What if there is financial chaos in your life and you just need to do something about it? What are your tips?

Jennifer Grimson:
So one of the things I say is try to go 30 days without purchasing anything above food and shelter, and see if you can do it, see how it makes you feel, write it down, those sorts of things. I think the root of it, if you're in it and you're causing it, is that you've got to figure out why you're doing it. So for me, my money lessons, my money culture, has been based in fear because I've been in these really extreme situations twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also sometimes give people some very tough love that they do not want to hear about big life decisions about their lifestyle overall.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I say a lot that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This is interesting to me. Met with a woman recently and she said, "I'm really struggling. I've been out of work." She's somebody I knew years ago in the corporate world. She'd been out of work for a long time. She was struggling to find a new corporate job, and let's face it, age-ism is a real thing. And there isn't much I can do to help her with that, other than networking. But I said, "Well, let's take a look at what you've got." And she's got this amazing home in a phenomenal location here in Nashville. She's got an outbuilding, an apartment. She already has an apartment.

Jennifer Grimson:
I said, "Well, you could turn that into an Airbnb." This is just an example. And obviously with all the experience I have, I was even willing to help her with the marketing and tell her what works best and all the tips. And she was like, "Well, I don't want people at my house." And okay, you don't want people at your house. That's okay. But you're choosing your identity, I think, over your security. I didn't want people at my house, either, Bobbi. I was tired of people using my bathrooms and sleeping in my beds, but I cared more about my security.

Jennifer Grimson:
So maybe you don't want somebody living in your house. That's fine. Maybe you don't want to give up the expensive purses. That's fine. But are you going to be able to give up the travel, or are you going to be able to give up eating out, or are you going to be able to give up, or are you willing to live basically on the fringe of complete financial ruin day in and day out?

Jennifer Grimson:
So for me, the second time I lost everything, my kids were in private school. I was living in this beautiful neighborhood. My first thought was, how do I keep them in private school? How do I get an apartment in this neighborhood? How do I keep this lifestyle that I've been creating for them? And the truth was, I wasn't going to keep any of that. I needed to move out. I needed to live with my sister, on her generosity, for four months. I needed to look at different areas for them to go to school.

Jennifer Grimson:
And so grappling with the fact that you may need to give up what you've become accustomed to, to achieve freedom, is just a really important topic that we go into over and over again. Clinging to what you had may not be your path to freedom.



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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Jennifer Grimson:
We're in California on Highway 101. I pull over on the side of the road. I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there, pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. As you heard, there was a point when Micro Empires podcast host Jennifer Grimson's life was truly in financial chaos. She can talk about it now, but literally pulling over to put generic cereal into brand name boxes so your husband won't know you saved money, that's really bananas, right? Jennifer talks candidly about her decisions to file for bankruptcy twice and the consequences of that tough decision. But she also gives some priceless tips on how we can first recognize when our financial lives are in chaos, because very often we are in the dark.

Bobbi Rebell:
And while it's not the primary focus of our interview, I did manage to sneak in some questions about maximizing your Airbnb properties and what makes a good investment. And you'll also hear why that's so relevant to Jennifer's story. Here is Jennifer Grimson. Jennifer Grimson, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jennifer Grimson:
Thank you so much for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am looking forward to speaking with you about your tips to handle financial chaos. That's why I brought you on, because it was a recent episode of your podcast, Micro Empires. But first, I want to hear a little bit more about your backstory because you have been through it all.

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, yes I have. So have many people. So my story is that I lost everything twice. So no job, no car, no place to live, two kids to raise, and chapter 13 bankruptcy. And that happened to me twice, once at the age of 29 and once at the age of 41, and the second time that it happened, I realized that I needed to do something to rebuild in a way that would protect me. So for me, that meant building small pockets of wealth, finger quotes, and security. And that's what the show that I have, which is called Micro Empires, is about, is just basically creating these small pockets so that if anything is taken away, you aren't left completely empty handed and at a loss of what to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those two bankruptcies, different stories each time, give us just a little sense of what caused those, because a lot of people go, well, how did that happen? I mean, the first time you had a one and a three-year-old. What happened?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, the bankruptcies were are actually caused by the same thing, but how it happened to me was that I was in a very contentious divorce. So my ex-husband sued me twenty-five times in 10 years, and I amassed over $500,000 in attorney's fees. And I can go into great detail about that, but I don't think we have time for it, but in my case, it wasn't that I purchased a home and went in upside down, or I bought expensive cars, or had terrible spending habits. It's that I was running from somebody who was punishing me financially through the court system, which is another entire story altogether.

Jennifer Grimson:
But chapter 13 was a way for me to escape the lawsuits, and the first one helped me preserve the home that I lived in. So it was probably the first lesson I got in there are tools out there for you to use to help you financially. Now, chapter 13 bankruptcy is no fun. You pay your creditors back. Your credit is ruined for 10 years. You have to live on cash. It is not a great existence, but it did release me from lawsuits. So I did that not only once, but twice. But on top of everything, the second time I found myself without anything, no car, no job, no place to live. What I had done then was to turn my financial wellbeing over to someone else, namely the person that I was in a relationship with, so that when that relationship ended, I was really left with nothing.

Jennifer Grimson:
And as shameful as I felt that was, I decided a year ago, when I decided to start the show, that I would share the story because I knew I wasn't the only one. I think women do it more than men. I think it happens a lot, and there's a lot of shame in it when really the shame should be honestly on the other person, who's kind of not being fair about that. But at any rate, it taught me a hard, hard lesson and I really didn't get the message until I was about 41, that no matter what I did, I was going to have to rebuild in a different way than I had done in the past.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now it is a decade after that second bankruptcy. Just to catch people up, you became a real estate investor.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yes, I did. So from 41 years old, the following three years it took me to correct my credit, which is a journey in and of itself. And then the first thing I did was to purchase a home, which was a miracle. And I walk through how I made that happen. And then through house hacking and short term rental, in four years, I created $1.4 million in income producing investments.

Jennifer Grimson:
And there's a reason they're called income producing investments. I didn't have $1.4 million. I had mortgages, I had overhead, I had all of the things, but what I had done was created, I actually had three properties that were Airbnb. And those properties all had their own incomes, their own empires, on top of a corporate job. So that way, I had at least four areas of income, and then I created other areas of income, as well. So I kept creating these little pockets of income.

Jennifer Grimson:
And then that's morphed. I've moved into investing into multi-family and other things. But again, by using tools, tools that I had at the ready. So I didn't realize, when I rebuilt the second time, I did it with a W-2 really and some grit. So other than that, I mean, I didn't have a great investment that I made a ton of money off of or anything like that. I simply just used the tools at hand, which are part of why I want to do the show, to share what's available to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know you don't do Airbnb investing right now, but just quickly, give us some insider secrets and tips for getting started with Airbnb. What did you learn there?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, I learned a lot. So first and foremost, I started doing it in 2014 in Nashville, Tennessee, where no one was doing it at the time. And that was a great time to do it. So my advice to anybody is anytime you see an opportunity, and maybe it's something new and edgy, and you're willing to take the risk, and risk, you know, I talk about risk a lot, it has to be a risk that you're comfortable with, I say, go for it. I needed to do everything in micro steps. Also part of why I do the things the way that I do. I'm not a huge risk taker.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I had my home. I started renting it out on the weekends through Airbnb and quickly realized that this could be a real way for me to not only cover my mortgage and expenses, but a way for me to create an income. My best advice for people, if you're getting involved in Airbnb and you're just starting out and you're just a normal person, like you're not a person who has hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank or millions to lose, I say, go find an emerging market and buy a really, really affordable home. Your money in real estate is made on the purchase. So if you purchase high, you're not really probably going to make a lot of money off it, no matter what your plan is with it. You've got to find a way to purchase low.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I purchased in evolving neighborhoods. I took a chance in that. And I went ahead and lived in the properties, which allowed me to get in there for very little money. I furnished them myself. I managed them myself, until such time that they were up and running and I was able to hire other people to do that. Those would be my basic tips on Airbnb. I could talk about that forever, but those are sort of the basics.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hands-on first, then hand it off. Okay, so that was a nice little bonus tangent for everybody. But the real reason I asked you to come on was to tell us your tips on how to handle financial chaos, which of course has to start with actually recognizing financial chaos. Like, there was a cereal incident in your car, with your children.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. So financial chaos is a really sad, scary place to live and to be. And I lived in it for many, many years, and I didn't know what I was living in. I like to describe it to people, I have this metaphor, like imagine you're living in a home, there's no lights in the home, and it's a hoarder. You're living in a home with a hoarder, and there's all this stuff piled up, but you don't know it's there, but you feel like something's wrong. You're not really sure what it is.

Jennifer Grimson:
And one day, someone turns the light switch on and you see all of the chaos, all of the mayhem, and that person who's creating it, whether it's you or potentially your partner, runs over and shuts that light off, and says, "Oh, never mind, never mind." You can't unsee it. So in my case, I lived in a situation where I was, to simplify it, I was a saver and my ex-husband was a spender. He had a lot of emotional attachment to money and how it made him feel. And we were living in absolute dire straights, things like he would get angry if I bought the generic brand cereal. We were so broke, I was bouncing checks to buy groceries. I would go to three different grocery stores to find the best deals.

Jennifer Grimson:
I took my children shopping one night, like I did normally, so I had them with me in the evening, little babies in diapers, in and out of the car. We'd go to three different grocery stores to save the money. And then on the way home, we're in California on Highway 101, I pull over on the side of the road, I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos. You're risking your entire life to keep someone happy about something that has to really do with money and your relationship with money. So that's financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
And when I talk to people about their money, and it's very, very personal. People will tell you about their sex lives before they'll tell you about their money, which is kind of crazy, but they'll explain things to me that they've become accustomed to because they've been living in it for so long. But that is sort of the truth of it, and recognizing it, as well. My advice is to look at, do you have a shared approach to money? Do you and your partner have a shared approach? Do you find it really difficult to go without the nice to haves? Or does your partner? Do you feel sick whenever you have to talk about money? And then examining what wealthy might mean to you, also a good tool in figuring out where you are on the money spectrum.

Bobbi Rebell:
Once we've identified that we are in financial chaos, which probably more of us are in than we realize, give us some tips to calm that financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, if you're in a partnership with someone who is creating the chaos, and it's not yourself, because sometimes it could be yourself, and there's a little test that I offer in the episode that I did this week, but probably the first thing is to sit down and have a conversation with that partner. Chances are, that may not go well if you've never had a conversation before, and there are therapists and books and things that can help you with that, but it's really taking a hard look at your own relationship with money. I happen to call it money culture, and I have a free ebook, as well, that walks you through like where are you with money and how do you feel and why do you do the things that you do?

Jennifer Grimson:
Hopefully if you can sit down and have a conversation with a partner and that person is able to come to grips with their own relationship with money, perhaps saying, "Yeah, I do these things because it makes me feel loved," or, "I didn't get this as a child," or, "It makes me feel like a better person when I have expensive things," you can start to work through that and come up with a plan together about how money is tied directly to identity and security. And so examining that and looking at it as a whole and saying is our identity more important than our security? Do we have to have a Mercedes-Benz outside and a really expensive house that we can't afford? Or is it better for us to have a little bit less and feel safe? That's what it is for me, anyway. I have to feel safe when it comes to money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a lot of us feel that way. So that's if a partner's involved. What if it's on you? What if there is financial chaos in your life and you just need to do something about it? What are your tips?

Jennifer Grimson:
So one of the things I say is try to go 30 days without purchasing anything above food and shelter, and see if you can do it, see how it makes you feel, write it down, those sorts of things. I think the root of it, if you're in it and you're causing it, is that you've got to figure out why you're doing it. So for me, my money lessons, my money culture, has been based in fear because I've been in these really extreme situations twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also sometimes give people some very tough love that they do not want to hear about big life decisions about their lifestyle overall.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I say a lot that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This is interesting to me. Met with a woman recently and she said, "I'm really struggling. I've been out of work." She's somebody I knew years ago in the corporate world. She'd been out of work for a long time. She was struggling to find a new corporate job, and let's face it, age-ism is a real thing. And there isn't much I can do to help her with that, other than networking. But I said, "Well, let's take a look at what you've got." And she's got this amazing home in a phenomenal location here in Nashville. She's got an outbuilding, an apartment. She already has an apartment.

Jennifer Grimson:
I said, "Well, you could turn that into an Airbnb." This is just an example. And obviously with all the experience I have, I was even willing to help her with the marketing and tell her what works best and all the tips. And she was like, "Well, I don't want people at my house." And okay, you don't want people at your house. That's okay. But you're choosing your identity, I think, over your security. I didn't want people at my house, either, Bobbi. I was tired of people using my bathrooms and sleeping in my beds, but I cared more about my security.

Jennifer Grimson:
So maybe you don't want somebody living in your house. That's fine. Maybe you don't want to give up the expensive purses. That's fine. But are you going to be able to give up the travel, or are you going to be able to give up eating out, or are you going to be able to give up, or are you willing to live basically on the fringe of complete financial ruin day in and day out?

Jennifer Grimson:
So for me, the second time I lost everything, my kids were in private school. I was living in this beautiful neighborhood. My first thought was, how do I keep them in private school? How do I get an apartment in this neighborhood? How do I keep this lifestyle that I've been creating for them? And the truth was, I wasn't going to keep any of that. I needed to move out. I needed to live with my sister, on her generosity, for four months. I needed to look at different areas for them to go to school.

Jennifer Grimson:
And so grappling with the fact that you may need to give up what you've become accustomed to, to achieve freedom, is just a really important topic that we go into over and over again. Clinging to what you had may not be your path to freedom.

Bobbi Rebell:
This has been so wonderful. Tell us where people can follow up with you. Of course, everybody needs to subscribe to the Micro Empires podcast.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah, the podcast, of course. My website is micro-empires.com. I'm on all the socials, either by Micro Empires or Jennifer Grimson. I have a free book. It's 28 pages. You can download it at my website. And I'm also creating a course called You Don't Have to Be Wealthy to Build Wealth. So I hope that will be really helpful for people. It's really for folks that are just kind of starting out, because I get asked the same questions over and over again. You know, I may not be the only person who's gone through this, but for a lot of folks who I hear, it's too late to start over, et cetera, et cetera, I think I'm a good example of somebody who went through it more than once, and later in life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Jennifer Grimson:
Thank you, Bobbi. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, let's review some of Jennifer's tips from the interview. First of all, look, bankruptcy is a serious decision, but it can be a tool to help in the most dire financial situations. So think about it carefully, but know that it might be right in some extreme situations. Don't turn your financial wellbeing over to someone else completely, even if that is someone that you are in a relationship with and you love and you believe will last forever. And I hope it does. But sometimes when a relationship ends, you can end up like Jennifer, with nothing. Just think about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jennifer set up her real estate as income producing investments. She had three Airbnbs with their own incomes that were separate, in addition to her W-2 job. So think about that when you are working on different side hustles or other ventures.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you find yourself in financial chaos and it involves a partner, make sure you sit down and try to have a conversation about it. Think about having them come to grips with their relationship with money and what is driving their decisions that are impacting both of you. Come up with a plan together. If you and you alone are the cause of the financial chaos, well, Jennifer suggests trying, for example, to go 30 days with just the most basic expenses. We're talking food and shelter, and maybe write down any time you stray. See how it makes you feel.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, figure out why you are doing it. Is it about identity, security, validation from others? Figure out what is your money culture based on? For Jennifer, it's based on fear of having to start over financially yet again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, I'd love to hear what you think of this episode. Have you ever found yourself in financial chaos? I would love to hear your reaction to this episode and maybe your stories. DM me on Instagram at @BobbiRebell1, and for previews of upcoming episodes and news that is relevant to our grownup lives, please subscribe to my newsletter. You can do so on my website, bobbirebell.com. Big thanks to Micro Empire's podcast host Jennifer Grimson for her fantastic advice and for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media, and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself, as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we've got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Financial Grownup, Financial Independence, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanReal Estate, Airbnb, Rentals, Micro Empires, Jennifer Grimson, Bankruptcy
What To Do When No One Will Hire You With the Breadwinner’s Podcast Jennifer Owens
What To Do When No One Will Hire You With the Breadwinner’s Podcast Jennifer Owens
main insta - jennifer owens educator and author (1).png

Entrepreneur Jennifer Owens found herself out of a job and out of luck after the startup she worked for folded. But the former Working Mother Editorial Director quickly set her self up for success using some creative strategies she shares on the podcast. 

Jennifer’s Money Story-

A startup I was part of failed, then I looked around and I was inspired by women who had done the same thing ahead of me. And it's formed my own consultancy, do all the things, make an LLC, get it filed right, do whatever. And then look and learn how to pitch myself as the content agency that I knew I could be. Basically like a fractional content agency to people who couldn't afford to hire me. And that was very exciting. And what I'm very proud of is that I got to do interesting projects, but I also got to continue to support my family. I talked to a lot of good friends that had done it before, to kind of learn from their mistakes. And people were very kind to share. I got my accountant from one person. I got the way you set up because when you start to set up, there are S Corps and C Corps. And so finding the one that's right for you, and that will get your tax accruing right. I learned from this network of people, I started reaching out. And yes, behind the scenes, it was very stressful. When that startup was dying, of all people, my mother said, "You know it's going to fall apart." She has the clear-eyed view of someone who can see, whereas when you're in it, you're like, "No, no, I can make it happen. I can keep it going." And no. So no, that was very stressful. And it was until the moment it clicked that, no my mother's right, which is always hard to admit. But my mother is right and I need to get my act together. That's when I started putting the pieces together and thinking about, I do the thing where I make a huge list of like a hundred things, what about this? What about that? What about this? And then start to break it down.

Jennifer’s Money Lesson-

Twitter Quote #2- Jennifer Owens -content strategy consultant and speaker.png

If you're looking to pivot, if you think that your skills need to be burnished a bit in your resume, look around, look at resume writers. Because there are bots that are just like SEO is working on websites. Basically the same concept is looking at HR departments. That they are getting, because they're using Indeed and LinkedIn, they're getting hundreds of resumes. And so then they use these bots to scrape and to look at keywords. Is that your skill? I had to admit it wasn't my skill. I know how to do all kinds of content, but this is a specific kind of content. I think there's no shame in investing in yourself for certain skills that will help present you in the best light.

Jennifer’s Everyday Money Tip-

Talk to your older generation of your family about their money stories. Because I have gotten such an insight into, especially the women of my family. Learning about their approach to working and to money.

Insta Quote #1- Jennifer Owens -content strategy consultant and speaker.png

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

If we're being honest, I have a really hard time pricing my work. That's why I depend on a team. My friends, my network of business colleagues who do work in the personal finance space and the content creation space that is somewhat similar to mine. I also talk to family, especially my husband. And in my case, I am fortunate, I have an agent who is familiar with the going rates in the market. Networking isn't just about getting the job. It's also about finding people to bounce ideas off of, and to learn from and about getting paid the right price when you do get the job.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

I love what Jen had to say about talking to older generations. We don't do it enough. I've learned so much about my parents' finances in just the last few years. Frankly, a lot of it was 100% different from what I had just assumed. Don't assume that you know your family's actual money story. Take the time to ask more questions. I'm putting it on my list as well.

Insta Quote #2- Jennifer Owens -content strategy consultant and speaker.png

Listen to The Bread Winners Podcast

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FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Bobbi Rebell :

It is officially spring, and that means graduation season is on. We here at The Financial Grownup podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and the seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweaters, all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup gear also makes great gifts for mother's day, father's day, engagements, bachelor, bachelorette parties, birthdays. And of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code graduation for a 15% discount. And thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And we truly appreciate your support.

Jennifer Owens :

Behind the scenes. It was very stressful when that startup was dying/ of all people, my mother said, "You know it's going to fall apart." She has the clear-eyed view of someone who can see, whereas when you're in it, you're like, no, no.

Bobbi Rebell :

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup. One lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hey friends, so I think that we have all probably had that sinking feeling, that something not so good is on the horizon. And it's just a matter of time before it hits us. But we actively work to just ignore it and hope we're wrong. And that everything's actually fine, even if it's pretty much crystal clear to our friends and family around us, that this is happening.

Bobbi Rebell :

As you just heard in the open for our guest Jen Owens, that person was her mother who had no doubt, the startup that Jen was working for was a sinking ship. And by the way, that is just the tip of the iceberg. But we'll get to that later.

Bobbi Rebell :

First, welcome everyone. This is the Financial Grownup podcast. We talk to financial grownups who share many stories and lessons and money tips all to help us on our own journeys. Now, I first met Jen Owens at an event ahead of the launch of my book, How to be a Financial Grownup, when she was the Editorial Director at Working Mother. Her energy was, and frankly is still contagious. She is a force. Fast-forward and Jen has had a very exciting, as it turns out, but very unpredictable few years after leaving that job. And I'm not just talking about the COVID times. Even in the before, as we like to say.

Bobbi Rebell :

In addition to her consulting company, Jen works and a new corporate job. Jen is also the cohost of the Breadwinners podcast, which we will talk about later in her interview. But first let's get to that interview. Here is Jen Owens.

Bobbi Rebell :

Jen Owens, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jennifer Owens :

Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell :

Congratulations on the continued success of the Breadwinners podcast. Always a great listen.

Jennifer Owens :

Oh, thank you. You know, very much inspired by the Financial Grownup, for sure.

Bobbi Rebell :

Oh thank you so much. Well, I'm glad to finally have you on here. You brought a money story that is very appropriate for a breadwinner and it has to do with what you did when no one would hire you. Jen, tell us your money story.

Jennifer Owens :

My money story is, how to stay in your career. Even when, how you think your career is supposed to look working for someone else. That's how I had done it for 30 years. So when a startup I was part of failed, then I looked around and I was inspired by women who had done the same thing ahead of me. And it's formed my own consultancy, do all the things, make an LLC, get it filed right, do whatever. And then look and learn how to pitch myself as the content agency that I knew I could be. Basically like a fractional content agency to people who couldn't afford to hire me. And that was very exciting. And what I'm very proud of is that I got to do interesting projects, but I also got to continue to support my family.

Bobbi Rebell :

Okay. But let's break it down. You made it sound like you made a simple checklist and boom, boom, boom. Everything came together. But we both know it was not so simple. Tell us more about what was going on behind the scenes, how you were feeling and how you really actually got those first clients. Because a lot of people hang up the shingle, me, myself and I consulting. And then crickets.

Jennifer Owens :

Yes. I talked to a lot of good friends that had done it before, to kind of learn from their mistakes. And people were very kind to share. I got my accountant from one person. I got the way you set up because when you start to set up, there are S Corps and C Corps. And so finding the one that's right for you, and that will get your tax accruing right. I learned from this network of people, I started reaching out. And yes, behind the scenes, it was very stressful. When that startup was dying, of all people, my mother said, "You know it's going to fall apart."

Bobbi Rebell :

Oh no.

Jennifer Owens :

Yes, well she has the clear-eyed view of someone who can see, whereas when you're in it, you're like, "No, no, I can make it happen. I can keep it going." And no. So no, that was very stressful. And it was until the moment it clicked that, no my mother's right, which is always hard to admit. But my mother is right and I need to get my act together. That's when I started putting the pieces together and thinking about, I do the thing where I make a huge list of like a hundred things, what about this? What about that? What about this? And then start to break it down. Just like you're talking about.

Jennifer Owens :

As for finding clients, I think your go-to spot is your network. I have been working for a lot of years and it's funny that in your network, people don't remember where you are. Because I had been at Working Mother Media for almost a decade and the startup had lasted a year. So people just assumed I was still at Working Mother. And you're like, "Aren't you following my every move?" So no, they don't. But that network from Working Mother, that's my passion anyways, that's my expertise. That's what I tapped first. And I reached out to people just to catch up. I reached out to find out what they were working on and that became my core of my first clients.

Bobbi Rebell :

One thing that's always been frustrating for me in my career is people that are well-meaning, but tell you to do things that you're doing. Because they're really obvious. I mean, if one more person tells me to apply to XYZ for a job that hasn't hired me yet to this day, I just don't know what to do. So what do you do when people give you, basically... It's not necessarily bad advice. It's just obvious advice and sort of condescending. Like, obviously I thought of that, but you don't want to say that when they're well-meaning. And you're like, "I'd rather, you just send business my way, if you, or someone you know, needs it." I don't need you to tell me to apply to this job. I'm doing this.

Jennifer Owens :

Right. I think one answer is to say, other than to be very polite and thank you as we all do, because we're all lovely ladies. But I think one way is to respond, to say, "Do you have any connections there? Do you have any insight there?" Like do you have anything? And if they do, pry it out to them. Get whatever connection. And if they don't have anything, well then thank you. Great. Moving on.

Bobbi Rebell :

And since many of your initial clients come from our friends basically, is it hard to get them to perceive the value in your work? Because one thing entrepreneurs also face is that many people think that because they're your friend or your family, that you're going to give them the discount. You're going to give them the friends and family rate. And you can to some degree, but long-term, that's not really a viable business strategy.

Jennifer Owens :

That's true. And I think that even the step back is to think of pricing. I did the classic thing where, to value yourself at the real rate. And what I mean by that is, I've come to learn after doing this for quite a while, that your rate is not just the moment of time that you're working. It's all the expertise and experience that you bring to that hour.

Jennifer Owens :

So you might work on a project, but the reason you can do it so quickly and so well, and so thoughtfully, and you can think about the future, it's because you have all this experience. Think of it as overhead, like intellectual overhead. So that's where I think talking to your network of peers, talk about pricing. I think people, at least privately, like you and I we'll talk about what we charge people. And you and another person. If we share this information, it really does help us know how to price ourselves, especially if you're new to the market of being an entrepreneur. Because then you can give a friends and family discount that won't hurt you.

Bobbi Rebell :

Very well said. So what is the lesson for our listeners, especially so many people that are rethinking how they're going to get back into the job market as hopefully things continue to improve with respect to the pandemic?

Jennifer Owens :

You know, honest to goodness, real down and dirty. I say, if you're looking to pivot, if you think that your skills need to be burnished a bit in your resume, look around, look at resume writers. Because there are bots that are just like SEO is working on websites. Basically the same concept is looking at HR departments. That they are getting, because they're using Indeed and LinkedIn, they're getting hundreds of resumes. And so then they use these bots to scrape and to look at keywords. Is that your skill? I had to admit it wasn't my skill. I know how to do all kinds of content, but this is a specific kind of content. I think there's no shame in investing in yourself for certain skills that will help present you in the best light.

Bobbi Rebell :

That's very interesting because I never thought about the fact that you need to really SEO optimize your resume these days. Because I've been working on trying to SEO optimize my website for the first time. And it's fascinating. And so that's something that is true. You may not have to do it that often, so it may be worth it to just outsource it rather than invest the time to learn to do it yourself. You may not do it that well yourself in the end. That's such good advice. You did bring with you in everyday money tip that is so... I don't know, it's just endearing. What's your everyday money tip Jen?

Jennifer Owens :

So my everyday money tip is to talk to your older generation of your family about their money stories. Because I have gotten such an insight into, especially the women of my family. Learning about their approach to working and to money. I have a story that my grandmother, my father's mother once followed an ad on the back of the bus to US Shoe, when shoe manufacturing is still a thing in the Northeast. And she got a job as a bookkeeper. And she came home, she had two kids at home, I think they had just entered high school. And her husband, my grandfather said, "Well, as long as you're home for making dinner." And like, "Come on dude." But very lovely parents.

Bobbi Rebell :

But that was actually probably considered very modern at the time.

Jennifer Owens :

And I said, Nana, why did you do that? She said, "Well, I was always good with figures." So she became a bookkeeper and that paid for college. ,That pin money was college money. And what's funny is I'm doing the same thing. What clients can I bring in to pay for college? So it makes me feel linked to my grandmother in a very visceral way.

Bobbi Rebell :

I love that. And it's such great advice because we do get so much information and context on financial decisions that were made in previous generations. And what we can take forward from talking to our older friends and relatives, whoever that may be. It might be your grandparents, but it might be somebody else your life. And I think that's such a wonderful thing to proactively do. Tell us more about everything else you're doing these days, starting with your podcast?

Jennifer Owens :

Well, thank you. The Breadwinners' just celebrated its 100th episode, which is quite the milestone. Can't believe we did that. So The Breadwinners is... We're looking at the world, the everyday hustle of life seen through those of us who have to work. Which is really everyone. So how it impacts our relationships, our careers certainly, our families, our communities. So we enjoy just talking to smart people, of which you shall be on. I am saying it right now for goodness sakes.

Bobbi Rebell :

Anytime. All right. Where can people follow you on social and all those things?

Jennifer Owens :

They can follow me on twitter @_jenniferowens and they can come to thebreadwinnerspodcast.com. All of it is there.

Bobbi Rebell :

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Jen.

Jennifer Owens :

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell :

Okay. My friends, here we go. Financial Grownup tip number one. If we're being honest, I have a really hard time pricing my work. That's why I depend on a team. My friends, my network of business colleagues who do work in the personal finance space and the content creation space that is somewhat similar to mine. I also talk to family, especially my husband. And in my case, I am fortunate, I have an agent who is familiar with the going rates in the market. Networking isn't just about getting the job. It's also about finding people to bounce ideas off of, and to learn from and about getting paid the right price when you do get the job.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup tip number two. I love what Jen had to say about talking to older generations. We don't do it enough. I've learned so much about my parents' finances in just the last few years. Frankly, a lot of it was 100% different from what I had just assumed. Don't assume that you know your family's actual money story. Take the time to ask more questions. I'm putting it on my list as well.

Bobbi Rebell :

Friends, I have more books to give away as we continue to celebrate financial literacy month. If you want to win a book from one of our Financial Grownup authors, just DM me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1, that's Bobbi Rebell and the number one. And just write, "I want to win a book by a Financial Grownup author." And please continue to join my money tips for grownups club on clubhouse, DM me @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram if you need an invite. We meet every Friday at 1:00 PM Eastern time. And we look forward to having you as part of the conversation.

Bobbi Rebell :

I also encourage everyone to check out Jen's podcast, the Breadwinners podcast and big thanks of course, to Jen Owens for helping us all be Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell :

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our Editor and Producer and Amanda Saven is our Talent Coordinator and Content Creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes, you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell :

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to Bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our grownup gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Career, Podcasts, Startup, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest UserJennifer owens, out of a job, working mother, content strategy consultant
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 Ways to Get Paid More with Ladies Get Paid’s Claire Wasserman
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 Ways to Get Paid More with Ladies Get Paid’s Claire Wasserman

Are you working harder than ever and not getting paid what you are worth? Claire Wasserman explains why so many of us get short-changed and shares 5 specific strategies that will upsize our income and compensation. Plus, Claire reveals the behind the scenes story of AOC’s decision to run for political office and her role in the gutsy move. 

Claire’s 5 Tips For How To Get Paid More!

claire wasserman-insta (1).png

Tip #1-

Talk to real people about their salary. You could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to a real person. Remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Tip #2-

Have three numbers. I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. This is a big problem because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. Oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter. So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there. So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Tip #3-

Talk about the whole picture. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Tip #4-

Talk about your value add. I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but make the case for yourself. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company." If you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. Discounts with vendors? Maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money. That is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees. Have testimonials too. You should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review.

Tip #5-

You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. So how do you address this? You use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." You've said your big number. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together."

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Full Transcript:

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Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup Guide, five ways to get paid more with Ladies Get Paid's Claire Wasserman.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey, grownup friends. Do you want to make more money? Yeah I thought so, and yeah, me too. The harsh reality is that the pandemic has been brutal, not just for our health, but also, yeah, for our wealth. Because how do you ask for more money from your boss, or how do you raise prices on your customers in a pandemic? I mean, we should be grateful just to have our jobs, just to have our businesses running if that's the case, which is true. That doesn't mean that we don't deserve to get paid more, and that doesn't mean that we can't get paid more. And we should not assume that those who make the decisions can't and aren't willing to pay us more. Right?

Bobbi Rebell: So I was thrilled to get to talk with Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid about her new book aptly titled, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. So, if you are open to making more money, this episode is definitely for you. By the way, no need to take notes. As always, the show notes have a quick summary of the episode, and all the links that you will need, and even a transcript of the entire interview. You just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and click on the Financial Grownup tab to bring you to the podcast section. There's also a search box on the top right if you want to search for this or a past episode.

Bobbi Rebell: Okay, my friends here is Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid.

Bobbi Rebell: Claire Wasserman, welcome to the Financial Grownup Podcast, and congrats on your new book, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career.

Claire Wasserman: Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk more about the book later in the show, but I want to get right into the five ways to get paid more that you brought for us. The first one is about talking to real people. And that sounds easy, but in this age, it can be complicated.

Claire Wasserman: Well, you could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to real people.

Claire Wasserman: Here's the good news, if you are nervous, remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Claire Wasserman: Now, you don't have to ask people specifically, "How much do you make?" Because sometimes that can feel a little uncomfortable. So instead, how about you bring them the research that you've done? "Listen, I'm an art director, five years into my career. I am working for a company that has 10 people." And please note here, I'm talking about context. Context is key. Tell them, "This is the research I did between X and Y. This is the salary. I think I should be getting paid. Am I off base, or, more abstractly, what's the ballpark that you're making?" Just remember, you want to talk to white men also, because they're the ones who are getting paid the most.

Claire Wasserman: And if any of them were trying to figure out how to be allies, which a lot of them are, this is a great way that they can support you. So don't be afraid to even cold email people, find them on LinkedIn, tell them you're trying to figure out your salary and you'd love for them to be an ally. How much do they make? Would they be willing to share, even just a ballpark. The worst thing that can happen is they just don't respond.

Bobbi Rebell: The second tip to get paid more is, "Have three numbers." What does that mean, Claire?

Claire Wasserman: Well, I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. Big problem, big problem, because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. I mean, oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter.

Claire Wasserman: So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there.

Claire Wasserman: So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Bobbi Rebell: Even though you have those three numbers in your head, is it better to try to get them to make the first offer, or is it better for you to throw out the number first?

Claire Wasserman: I have a controversial opinion here, because I think when you do research, a lot of other coaches will tell you, "Never be the first one to say the number, because you might low ball yourself."

Claire Wasserman: If you've done the market research and they're paying in the market research, when you were the first person to say it, you're anchoring high. If they are the first person, they may be anchoring low. And it sometimes can feel a little uncomfortable to say, "Well, that wasn't really what I was thinking," or it might throw you off, maybe even demoralizes you. So start with the number you want, but back it up with the research that you've done. You can even say, "I've spoken to a number of other people," if they ask, "Where did you get this number?"

Claire Wasserman: And you can also say things like, "This is the number, the market research that I found, but what are you proposing?" So it's not like you're ending the conversation with that first number.

Bobbi Rebell: And a lot of employers, though, try to find out what you were making before and anchor to that. How should people handle that? Because it also depends where you live.

Clair Wasserman: Exactly. So some states have passed what's called the Salary History Ban. The thinking behind that is if marginalized groups are getting paid less than other people from the beginning of their career, and every time that they get a raise, if that's always based on that original salary, well then, the gap will compound over time and will never catch up. So you can decline to respond, or you can be abstract, or tell them how much you got paid, but listen, that's not relevant to the ask now.

Claire Wasserman: I mean, even think about this, look at the original job description, write a new one for what you did. You're going to see a lot of changes. You're going to see experiences, growth, maybe totally different work that you ended up taking on. So the salary that was originally given to you was based on what you knew then. Regardless of what this next job is, and the market research, just know for yourself that you have grown by leaps and bounds since that first salary.

Bobbi Rebell: Number three, "You want to talk about the whole picture."

Claire Wasserman: Yes. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability, full compensation. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Claire Wasserman: So I would say, "What are the top one, two and three items for full comp you can bring up?" I would personally bring it up after the salary conversation is over, only because I don't want them to use your full comp ask as leverage to get that salary down. And you want to ask for this, regardless of whether or not it's a pandemic, just be prepared that you may need to ask for more things, more full comp, if a time like now, if they're not saying yes to the salary.

Claire Wasserman: If you're wondering, "Well, Claire, if they don't have the money to give me a salary bump, how are they going to afford to give me a signing bonus, or pay for me to go to a conference?" A lot of times these come from different budgets. I know so many women who were not able to get the salary they wanted, but the signing bonus actually got them to a place where their now annual salary was exactly what they wanted to begin with. And that was simply because different budgets from different departments.

Claire Wasserman: So if you don't ask, a hundred percent, you're not getting. Again, the worst thing that can happen is they say, "No," which in my mind is really a, "Not yet." And then you can continue the conversation later.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that. A "Not yet." Not a "No." Are there benefits that have evolved during the pandemic that people may not be aware of, that they can ask for?

Claire Wasserman: Well, make sure that you're getting cell phone and internet and anything that requires you to do work from home, which by the way, I think most of us are doing, or a lot of us are doing that.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh yeah.

Claire Wasserman: I wonder if it can even be your laptop, paper, pen, I mean, really pretend you're a freelancer, to be honest. Your overhead costs, they should be paying for. If you want to continue flexibility, you've really proven now to them that it is possible. So if this fits for your lifestyle and you want to do a hybrid model, be prepared to ask, and you can make the case, I think, pretty easily.

Bobbi Rebell: Is that something you should ask before you start, or is that something that you should wait? Because traditionally, people often said "Go in 100% and be extremely present. And then once you prove yourself and they know you and they trust you, then you can ask for a hybrid approach." What's your take on that?

Claire Wasserman: Yeah. I mean, if this is a deal breaker for you, then you definitely want to bring this up maybe during the interview, otherwise you're wasting your own time along with theirs. You can also ask open-ended question of, "Do you have a hybrid model? Are there other people doing this? I'm just curious." So you can get a sense from the very beginning of their openness to the conversation.

Claire Wasserman: And then in terms of proving yourself, sure, but just to remember that it's not necessarily all or nothing. You can ask for maybe once or twice a month, or once a week, or something where they can see how this is going to go. And also proactively address all the reasons that they might be hesitant, so you're not just, "Hey, can I work from home?" And letting them tell you, "No, no, no." It's okay if you're concerned about team dynamic or communication, "Here's a way that we can address that." Just making it really easy for them to feel good about saying yes to you.

Bobbi Rebell: Exactly. And make it easy to say yes. The fourth way to get paid more is my favorite. It's about your value add, really.

Claire Wasserman: I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but making the case... So it's you say, "Well, Hey, I want top dollar." "Well, hold on now. You have to prove to me that you're a top performer." You don't get the money, because you deserve it, even though, I know you deserve it. And it's also not about, "Here's the work that I did," because guess what? It was your job. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company."

Claire Wasserman: Now, if you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, well, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. I mean, discounts with vendors, maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money that is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees.

Claire Wasserman: So if you're a part of contributing to the culture of the company, it means as much as if you were able to land a client, but you just have to make the case. Have testimonials too. So through all throughout the year, I mean, first of all, you should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review. I mean, not to put it so... It sounds not great, but that's the same thing. It's like, "Don't just take my word for it. Take Bob's word for it."

Bobbi Rebell: Okay. The fifth way to get paid more, this is something I think is very hard for a lot of women, because you tell them to be assertive, but you also have to have empathy.

Claire Wasserman: You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because we are, this is terrible, but there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating, put others before ourselves, be nice, be good girls, don't disrupt.

Claire Wasserman: Well, hold on now. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. Well, what's the chance that they're going to now look at you like you're aggressive? And women of color, I know you're nodding. This is something that they even more. So how do you address this? Well, you use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." But you've said your big number, I want to be clear. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together." Or, "I know this is a company that pays women equitably." That's actually shaming them a little bit.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that one.

Claire Wasserman: Or, "This is a company that is very fair. I'm sure we can figure this out together." And you can always, at the very end, just say, "Well, what would you do if you were in my shoes?" Bring it around. And do remember that we're all negotiating in this environment. They will, I think, automatically have empathy with you if you have empathy with them.

Bobbi Rebell: I don't want to let you go before we talk a little bit about your book directly. Like I said, it's called Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. What was your favorite chapter?

Claire Wasserman: I don't think I have a favorite chapter. I just have favorite stories. So for those of you listening, if you're not familiar with the book, I structure it by following the lives of nine real women from the Ladies Get Paid community. Each of them is going through a different professional challenge. And as I tell their story, I stop along the way, and I give advice.

Claire Wasserman: A woman who came to the second workshop that I ever organized about getting unstuck in her career, and all the way, for the next year and a half, she wanted to be in some kind of civic engagement role, maybe in politics. And finally, at a town hall that I hosted about reinventing yourself, she stood up and she declared to the whole room, "I have always wanted to run for office, but people who look like me don't run for office." And she was a young Hispanic woman. And this was in front of a room, this is a hundred women. She said, "But I am going to run for office."

Claire Wasserman: And everybody cheered. And I cried. I cried, because I knew her. I knew her since college. We were so excited for her, because of how brave she was. She declared that she was going to do something that she was probably not going to succeed at. She was going to be going against an incumbent who was 20 or 30 years older than her, of course, a white man. And so here she was, saying, "I'm going to do this thing. And the chances that I even seed are so slim." But that was why it was courageous, and that's why we were so moved by her.

Claire Wasserman: Now, of course, a year later, she wins. Then she became the youngest Congresswoman ever. And her name is Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. So that story is my favorite. I guess I just gave away the ending of that story. If that wasn't enough to have you read the book... Well, you'll read the book. I know you all will.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah, the book was amazing. And by the way, it's important to know that even though the title is Ladies Get Paid, there is a lot of general career advice here. It's really powerful. And things that you haven't necessarily heard before are very original strategies that I think will be helpful to everyone.

Bobbi Rebell:My favorite chapter, by the way, was in level up section, you have different sections. I love chapter eight, Get Allies, because I think it's so important to have allies in your corner. As you mentioned, so many jobs are never publicly listed. And so it's important to have people that are looking out for you. And it's not always your direct inner circle. Sometimes it's your acquaintances that can be so valuable in helping your career.

Claire Wasserman: I have never gotten a job that I applied to online. I think I maybe got an interview once. My whole career has come from relationships that I've built over time. They've also been strategic. It's not mutually exclusive to be authentic and have a genuine friendship while also knowing how both of you are going to leverage each other's strengths and connections. And that, again, has been the key, the key to men, the old boys club that exists for a reason. And so we have to create the young girls club. How about that?

Bobbi Rebell: Yes. Well, it's the everyone club, really. And you have to... One of my favorite stories was the last one that you share, which is Madeline, who really investigated and was very upset to find that the men in her company were making multitudes of what she was making. I was a little bit upset by what the ending was, but it was a big lesson.

Claire Wasserman: So that name has been changed.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes.

Claire Wasserman: Her story is in the New Yorker. You can all figure it out.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah.

Claire Wasserman: It is wild. It is even more dramatic than I put in the book, because my editor thought, "Well, the people won't believe this." So you know what? Truth is stranger than fiction, and I'm so honored by her and everybody else who so vulnerably shared their struggles with me. I think it goes a long way to showing folks out there that they're not alone, which is the first step, undo any shame that you have in order to be open to learning and to helping others. We're all going through something. It's so relieving. It's like you just alleviate this weight off of you when you share your story, and I'm just honored that these women did that with me and for you all.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. And thank you for sharing all of those stories. Tell us more about where people can reach you. We know the book is available everywhere. Where can people be in touch with you and Ladies Get Paid?

Claire Wasserman: I would love you all to follow me on Instagram. I'm @ClaireGetsPaid. You can also follow @LadiesGetPaid on Instagram, and join our Slack group. We've got 75,000 women from all over the world. They've exchanged more than two million messages since 2016. So very talkative in there, and it's free. So just join at LadiesGetPaid.com, and we'll add you. And thanks, Bobbi, for having me. I always love an opportunity to share my story, and as you can tell, I like to talk.

Bobbi Rebell: If you loved what Claire had to say as much as I did, I hope you will, first of all, go buy her book. It's great. And I also hope you will take a moment, while you are listening to this podcast, and take a screenshot of it and post it on Instagram Stories or other social media. And if you tag me @BobbiRebell1, that's B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L, and then the number one, you will be entered into our monthly giveaways. You can win books by our authors that are on the podcast, as well as merch from our new Grownup Gear store. You can see the merch, by the way, right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. You'll see it says shop grownup gear.

Bobbi Rebell: Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of the Financial Grownup podcast. So grateful for Claire Wasserman for helping us all learn to get paid like financial grownups. Bye, everyone.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Authors, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Get Paid More, Millennial Superstars, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest Userclaire wasserman, aoc, get paid more, political office, income, business strategy, ladies get paid, author
Business Breakups: How to know when it is time to go- and how to find your next move with author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig
Business Breakups: How to know when it is time to go- and how to find your next move with author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig

Jessica Zweig leads the thriving personal branding business: Simply Be. But the author of the new book "Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself” only got to this point in her life because she was able to exit a toxic business relationship that brought her personally and financially to rock bottom. Plus she shares an everyday money tip that will help us reach our goals during the pandemic, no matter what obstacles we are facing. 

Jessica’s Money Story:

Jessica Zweig-insta (3).png

My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had 100,000 local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship." And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth. It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch.


Jessica’s Money Lesson:

Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page.


Jessica’s Money Tip:

So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.


Bobbi’s Take:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships, and used the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. - This past week the dating app Bumble went public. Its founder,  Whitney Wolfe Herd started Bumble in 2014..  after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder, where she was a co-founder- after a breakup with another co-founder. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and is worth over a billion dollars. 


Financial Grownup Tip #2:

So many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic- in part because it feels like no one is watching. I mean after all. We can and do literally work in our pajamas. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time. Get an accountability partner. Get someone who will be committed to you- and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren’t doing that- break up fast and find another accountability partner. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy, but this more quiet time will come to an end, and the opportunity to get to your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste. 

Get your copy of Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself.

Follow Jessica!

Follow Bobbi!

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys, are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy t-shirts and we need to give ourselves an upgraded but still super comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

Bobbi Rebell: I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick me ups to to let them know it's all good and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost grownup friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales follow us on Instagram at our new handle at @GrownupGear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear you help support this free podcast.

Bobbi Rebell: The debt and the brokeness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would've if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We've got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Financial Grownup Podcast. We share money stories here that had big impacts on our guests lives and of course then they share with us the lessons from them. I'm your host Bobbi Rebell, Journalist, Certified Financial Planner and author of the book How To Be a Financial Grownup. If you're new here welcome. I'm so glad you found us.

Bobbi Rebell: So that clip that you heard at the top of the show was from author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig. Jessica has a new book out called Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. I have to say I love that title. The thing about Jessica is that if you don't know her you would never know all the things that she has had to overcome to well be where she is now that included a toxic business relationship that lasted for seven years. The breakup left her with nothing hitting rock bottom at age 33, even having to ask her parents for money just to pay her phone bill. Just when we think we will be hitting our grownup stride you never know what's going to hit us. There is a lot to learn from this remarkable woman and she does not hold back in this interview. Here is Jessica Zweig.

Bobbi Rebell: Jessica Zweig, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me Bobbi. I'm pumped to be here.

Bobbi Rebell: Well, I am pumped to have you here. Your book Be, I'm holding it up by the way, Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself is about to come out and it's your first book. Congratulations.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much. You know how much goes into it so thank you for saying that.

Bobbi Rebell: I really enjoyed learning so much about you and what you teach people in the book. What's interesting is you come across as having it all together which you do now I'm going to say but it wasn't always the case. You brought with us a money story that is sadly something many of us can relate to but often don't know what to do with, I should say that often don't know what to do about, and that is finding ourselves in toxic relationships personally and in business in work environments. Tell us your money story Jessica.

Jessica Zweig: My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had a hundred thousand local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship."

Jessica Zweig: And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth.

Jessica Zweig: It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch. Bobbi Rebell: When you look back were there red flags that you should have spotted in the relationship, in the business in terms of the skills that you both brought?

Jessica Zweig: From day one. I mean, there were massive red flags. I think I realized three months in just how different we were but we were young and we were so naive and we both really loved this business. This magazine Cheeky was our baby. And so I didn't want to give it up and she didn't want to give it up and at the core there was a magic connection with us. We wouldn't have created what we created if there wasn't that synergistic spark. And we both loved each other to a degree which was what made it so difficult.

Jessica Zweig: But there were red flags and it was honestly one of the most toxic relationships of my life. I mean, we were together for seven years and we were water and vinegar. We were just totally different people. And I'm not saying I was better or she was worse, we were just different. I've come to so much peace and love and honestly forgiveness for myself first in the way that I showed up in that relationship as much as her and how she showed up in the relationship which I think has really been a huge key to me soaring in the last few years because I really did my own work.

Jessica Zweig: I think it's so easy to point fingers at people when they burn us or they hurt us or they come after us. There's that expression when you point one finger at someone, I mean do it, you're pointing three back at yourself. So you really do have to look at yourself in any sort of situation but when it comes to money it's especially loaded and I could still be angry, I could still be bitter, I could still be resentful. I don't feel any of those feelings. And it was the greatest learning lesson of my life. I applied all of those mistakes, all of those failures to simply be and simply be is so successful and it wouldn't have been unless I had that seven year chapter and run of making all of those mistakes.

Jessica Zweig: So, I think that everything happens for a reason and I feel like the debt and the brokenness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would have if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. So, everything happens for a reason and divine order. It's happening for you not to you even though it can really feel the opposite in the moment. I wouldn't be who I am without that business and that failure.

Bobbi Rebell: Can you me a specific example of something that happened that highlighted your differences? It doesn't have to be your biggest fight or something but something especially money related that you just never agreed on.

Jessica Zweig:I think we were both pretty irresponsible with the way we spent the business's money. I really wanted to grow it and scale it and exit. I wanted to be that type of entrepreneur and she wanted it to be a more lifestyle business. If you're going to go into business with anyone whether it's a business partner or someone on your team or your leadership team to really understand those nuances and get everyone on the same page. Because it sets the foundation for the type of business and the rate in which you want to grow and how you want to operate and who you want to do business with so, so much. And we just didn't have the skills. We were so young. We didn't have the tools to talk about money and business at that level. We were green as grass. So, of course it netted out the way that we netted out. And we also were really done when we opened up our credit cards. She was the personal guarantor on the credit cards. It was just mistake, after mistake, after mistake.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. I love that you're talking about the fact that it is so hard to talk about money and it sounds like you guys didn't have a lot of talks about money and how you were going to structure your firm and how you were going to fund it before you started it. What is the lesson for our listeners as we put it all in context?

Jessica Zweig: Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken and I think actually way, way up and make the right decision to partner with the right people in the first place. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page. And yet money makes people funny no matter what and so you really have to recognize that in yourself and in the others and bring as much consciousness and integrity to those kinds of negotiations, conversations, whatnot.

Bobbi Rebell: I could talk to you forever about this but I want to get your everyday money tip because it's something that I am already implementing for 2021 and that is having accountability, having an accountability partner. Talk about that.

Jessica Zweig: Yeah. So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Jessica Zweig: And so, I brought in my husband who is a financial advisor, as well as you are. And his business had kind of slowed down, he couldn't go out and network, we were quarantining. And he's like, "Jess, I'll help you with the PPP." He took one look at my finance team and was like, "Dude, I can do this better." And so I fired my finance team and I hired my husband. And my husband and I have always obviously been partners and accountable to each other because we're married but bringing him into my business...

Jessica Zweig: He's now my CFO, he helps me run the shop, saving money, ensuring that our P and L's are always balanced, making sure we're net profitable. Having someone that I trust, obviously I trust no one more than my own husband but he has really allowed me to fly as the CEO because I know that he's got things covered. And we operate like a legit finance CFO to CEO. We take weekly meetings. He has an agenda. We run through every money in money out, hiring, investments, savings. We don't have any debt in our business. It's a really powerful person, obviously it's my own husband. But if you can have someone to pulse check you, to support you, to believe in you, to honestly be able to see the forest from the trees more than you can in your own project or business or money endeavor that is so key.

Jessica Zweig: And then another thing that I have done that has really allowed me to get out of debt and save money and feel really, really peaceful and abundant and my husband has helped me with this is we've set up an account. I call it my island account and it's a bank account we can only put money in. And if I needed to take money out I'd have to drive all the way across town in the worst hours, whatever. It's my island account. I can only send money to it, it can only grow. And I'm stacking my cheddar as my accountant once told me and my husband helps me ensure that money is being sent to that account every single month and that we're totally able to send that level of money over to that account and that's really grown our savings. My husband and I sleep well at night because of it.

Jessica Zweig: And so those are the key hacks that having my husband and having that account has changed honestly my financial wellbeing more than my finances but more of my financial wellbeing, which I think is key to vibrating at that level of abundance and attracting more.

Bobbi Rebell: That's such great advice. There's also a lot more great advice and I'm picking up your book now even though I know we're on audio and your book, okay I'm going to read the title Be, with a period, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. And I love the yellow cover. Yellow became one of your themes in the book so it transcends so much about you and your sunny personality. Tell us briefly about the book.

Jessica Zweig: So the book is a personal branding book. It's going to walk you through my trademark methodology of how to build your platform, the platform of you. Whether you work for yourself, or you work for someone else, or you want to one day work for yourself, having an understanding of what makes you you is an invaluable asset that you can take with you no matter what your job title is. That's number one. It's going to teach you tactically step-by-step how to do that from messaging, to strategy, to content, to social media, to PR.

Jessica Zweig: However, it is a personal empowerment book in fact disguised as a business book. Because I think at the core most people feel afraid to do that and to put themselves out there. And I say that my book is the permission slip and the reminder that you are worthy to be seen and to shine and to have everything you ever want. And it's my own journey in fact as well and my uncovering that truth for myself. And so, I'm right along with you throughout the whole book and you're going to take away so much tactical knowledge but at the end of the day I hope it inspires people to stop playing small and stop apologizing for their authentic amazingness. And that's what my book Be is about.

Bobbi Rebell: One of the recommendations in the book is to keep your social media and all of your public identifying names, et cetera, very consistent. So let's end with you telling us where people can find you on all of the social media because I know you keep it easy.

Jessica Zweig: I walk the talk as I say I drink my own Kool-Aid. So yes I am at Jessica Zweig on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, jessicazweig.com. You can also go to simplybeagency.com which is my company's website and find me. I'm really, really, really easy to find. I'm out there. So please come and say hi.

Bobbi Rebell: Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me. This was amazing.

Bobbi Rebell: Here we go my friends Financial Grownup tip number one, some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships like Jessica, and like Jessica they use the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. This past week the dating app Bumble went public and its founder Whitney Wolfe-Herd started Bumble in 2014 after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder where she was a co-founder after a breakup with another co-founder. And she's talked about it a lot, it was a toxic relationship for sure. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and worth over a billion dollars. What a great story.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup tip number two, so many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic in part because it feels like no one's watching. I mean, after all we can and do literally work in our pajamas, certainly the off-camera part. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time, get an accountability partner like Jessica. Get someone who will be committed to you and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren't doing that well break up fast and find another accountability partner who's a better fit. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy but this more quiet time will come to an end and the opportunity to get your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste.

Bobbi Rebell: One way to get motivated, get out of those PJ's. Realistically, I know we aren't getting dressed up but have some fun with your pandemic wardrobe. That's what I know I needed when I came up with a concept for Grownup Gear it is all about celebrating wherever we are in our journey to being grown ups which never really ends let's be honest. Check out the designs on my website, bobbirebell.com. Click on shop or just go directly to grownupgear.com. And please be in touch. DM me what you want more of on this podcast. I love your feedback. I put discount codes for Grownup Gear on my Instagram, which by the way is Bobbi Rebell one. And we did just start a Grownup Gear Instagram. We don't have a lot of followers so please come check it out. That's at @GrownupGear on Instagram.

Bobbi Rebell: So big thanks to Jessica Zweig, author of Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing You Self-Worth and Your Net Worth By Simply Being Yourself. Everyone check out the book and thanks again to Jessica for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Advice, Authors, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Financial Independence, Investing, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Startup, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest UserJessica Zweig, Business Breakup, simplybe, money stories, money, finance, saving, spending, stocks, debt, credit cards
How to hold down two dream jobs at once with Cosmo Op-Ed Editor and novelist, Jessica Goodman
How to hold down two dream jobs at once with Cosmo Op-Ed Editor and novelist, Jessica Goodman

When Jessica Goodman landed a book deal, and later a TV deal for her debut novel “They Wish They Were us” many people though she would go full time on her side-hustle. But Goodman says that was never the plan, and explains why and how she blends the finances and demands of her two dream jobs.

Jessica Goodman -Insta (4).png

In Jessica’s Money Story she shares:

-How she started writing her e first book, “They Wish They Were Us.”after having the idea for years.

-How she researched what is involved in selling a book to a publisher, including getting an agent

-How she kept her employer, Cosmopolitan Magazine informed and supportive of her book writing side hustle

-How an advance works for an author, including the tax implications

-What she wishes she knew about being an author and how much they are paid before she wrote and sold the book

-How she was able to adapt her schedule to both her full time job at Cosmopolitan Magazine, and writing books

-What you need to know about how a full time job works compared to being a self-employed author, including quarterly taxes

-When you should think about bringing in an accountant.

In Jessica’s Money Lesson you will learn:

-Why and how you should re-evaluate the way you think about money

-The best strategies to manage money when you are paid inconsistently in chunks

-How she and her partner adapted their spending during the pandemic

-How to resist it when people who care about you give you bad financial advice

Jessica’s Money Tip:

-Even if you live in a small space it can pay to buy in bulk during quarantine (and maybe after!)

-Think of non-traditional items that you would not have used as much at home- like buying wine by the case

-Tips about ordering groceries online including having the heaviest items delivered

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. If you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.


Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Get a system going and understand that you might miss out on things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.


Episode Links:


Follow Jessica!

Follow Bobbi!

  • Twitter - @bobbirebell


    Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Full transcript of show:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees. Much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Jessica Goodman:

When I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. You publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey friends, do you have a passion project or a side hustle? One you dream of doing full time one day and maybe getting to ditch that day job? Well, Cosmopolitan's Jessica Goodman had a passion project that she was quietly working on for years. And that was to be an author. Her debut novel, a murder mystery set in an elite private school called They Wish They Were Us ended up being such a hit that it is now being made into a TV series, starring Halsey and Euphoria's Sydney Sweeney. Fast-forward and Jessica has now scored a book for a second novel that is already coming out this summer. So all systems go on the dream career, right? Well, not so fast. To the surprise of quite a few people in her life, rather than ditch, she doubled down, staying on a Cosmopolitan magazine where she is currently the op-ed editor.

Bobbi Rebell:

In our interview, Jessica shares why she is sticking with the day job, goes through exactly how she manages her time and gets candid about what she wishes she knew about before diving into the book business, including, well, a lot of tech stuff. For those of you new to the Financial Grownup Podcast, welcome. I'm so glad that you are here. We talk with financial grownups here about money stories that impacted their lives and the lessons learned from those stories. We also ask them to bring along an everyday money tip that we can put to work right away. Spoiler alert. Jessica's has to do with how she and her partner buy their wine. So stay tuned for her tip on that. And with that, let's get to this week's interview. Here is Cosmo op-ed editor and author of They Wish They Were Us, Jessica Goodman.

Bobbi Rebell:

Jessica Goodman, I'm so excited to finally have you on the show. You are definitely a financial grownup. Welcome.

Jessica Goodman:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

And happy 2021, a year when your second, soon to be bestseller is going to be released. Before we get into your money story, tell us a little bit about each of your books just briefly.

Jessica Goodman:

So my first book, They Wish They Were Us came out in August and it is a young adult thriller that follows a high school senior, Jill Newman, who is in a very exclusive society within her Long Island prep school. And at the beginning of the book, she is reflecting on the fact that her best friend died when she was a freshman and she was also part of this society. And soon after the book begins, she starts getting text messages that say that her best friend Shayla didn't die the way that everybody thinks she did. And so what follows is kind of a whodunit, murder mystery set in this very exclusive prep school. And it's really an exploration of privilege and friendship and peer pressure. And I kind of like to say that it's like Gossip Girl meets Pretty Little Liars, meets A Secret History. It's really fun. And it's being adapted into a TV series, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey. So if those people are on your brain, I think you might enjoy.

Jessica Goodman:

And then I also have a new book coming out this summer. It's called, They'll Never Catch Us. It's currently available for pre-order wherever books are sold. And it is also a young adult thriller about two super competitive sisters who run cross country. And they're both trying to be the best on their team and in the state. And they threaten to kind of lose the number one and two spots when a new girl comes to town. And then soon after she arrives, she also disappears. And everybody in the town begins to suspect that the sisters had something to do with it. So that's where my brain has been for the past couple of months, which is really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is really exciting. What's amazing to me, and I think our listeners will really enjoy hearing about this is while you are doing this, this is actually really a side hustle to your primary job. You have been in a number of different positions at Cosmopolitan magazine. You're currently the op-ed editor. Did I get that right?

Jessica Goodman:

You did. And I'm very impressed that you didn't trip up over the ed editor because I always do when I say it out loud and I have to be like, oh wait, no, this is my job.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is your job now, you are still working there with one book out, another one on the way. So for your money story, I've asked you to kind of talk about how that happened, especially the money-related decisions that you had to make along the way to make this happen. Having a very full-time job at Cosmo. And then on the side, writing this book. It was a lot of choices you had to make I would say. Tell us your money story.

Jessica Goodman:

Definitely. Yeah, so many choices along the way. When I started writing the first book, They Wish They Were Us. And I really started writing it in earnest after having kind of dabbled with it for many years. In earnest, I started working on it in like 2015, 2016. I would say. I didn't get to the point where I thought I could actually sell it and be a professional author until maybe like 2018. And that's when I got connected with my agent and we started working towards being able to sell it. But I did a lot of research into how one becomes an author. I was literally Googling like, how do you publish a book? Like, how do you find an agent? Like what is a book advance? Like all of these kinds of really basic questions that I just had no idea what it was all about.

Jessica Goodman:

And I basically found out that it's really, really, really difficult to publish and sell a book. And that be your sole income or your sole career, like one book basically. And so it was never really an option for me to quit my ... Like I never thought about quitting my jobs in journalism while I was trying to sell the book. So it was always just like, how can I make both of these dreams come true at the same time? And so we sold the book, They Wish They Were Us, in the fall of 2018. And we got an advance, which is what they call the income that you make from selling your book. And publishers usually split it up into a few big chunks. For mine, it was like, I got a chunk of money when I signed the contract, a chunk of money when I turned in the book and then a chunk of money when the book came out. And when, at least when I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. It's like you publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case. And it's certainly like a fantastic thing to have of course, but it's not the kind of financial gains that I originally thought it would be. And I think that a lot of people think about when they think of like someone getting a book advance. Like I said, it was always like a no-brainer that I would keep my job, but I really had to learn how to prioritize both jobs to be able to do them well. So my schedule when I'm being my best self is that I write in the morning before work, usually from seven to nine. And then I do my job from ten to whenever. And then I write on the weekends as well. It's certainly hard at some points, especially at my job at Cosmo, I cover the news, especially like elections and special elections and anything relating to, like having to do with politics. So obviously this past year was hard to balance everything.

Bobbi Rebell:

Were you open with your bosses about these efforts, or was it something you kept private?

Jessica Goodman:

When the book deal actually happened, I went in and told my boss, hey, I just want to give you a heads up that like this happened and it's not going to affect the work that I do here. Like, I really wanted to make sure that they knew that I wasn't about to quit basically, that I was just like, this is just something that I'm doing for myself and my personal dreams. But like, it's not going to affect my work or my productivity here. And I just wanted to give you like a courtesy heads up basically. And everybody was really supportive and they have been really supportive of the book. And so it's been lovely honestly, but I definitely have heard some horror stories at other companies. But I think when you work in a field that's somewhat like adjacent to whatever your side hustle is, it does make it a little bit easier for people to understand why you might be doing something or how it won't interfere with your responsibilities.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you wish you knew in terms of the book business and the financial aspects of it? What do you wish you knew ahead of time? You mentioned that you get the bulk payments and you kind of had this idea as a child that authors become millionaires.

Jessica Goodman:

Yeah, I think something that I definitely wish that I knew was like taxes. Like I think if you're like me and you've really only had a job that you get a salary and benefits from your employer, it's really difficult to self-manage money that comes in chunks, whether you're a freelance writer or you're your own boss and you're not part of like a company. I think it's really difficult to know things like, oh, I have to pay quarterly taxes on this income. Or like, oh, I don't know how much money to put aside from this advanced check that I got, because that advance doesn't reflect the taxes I need to pay on it. So I ended up working with an accountant because I had no idea how to navigate this on my own. And I wanted to make sure that I was doing everything by the book.

Jessica Goodman:

And I wasn't going to get dinged at the end of the fiscal year because I have heard horror stories of people getting, like a $100,000 of their advance, spending it, and then not realizing that they needed to pay however many tens of thousands of dollars of taxes on that. And like, oh my God, what a nightmare. Or even realizing that I had to pay quarterly taxes on like freelance income was the real shock to me. So I got an accountant kind of like late in the game, I would say. And I wish I had got one, like even before the first check came in to like really help me navigate that.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson for our listeners, from this story? What's your advice to people thinking about whether it's writing a novel or any kind of side hustle where they're going to have to hold on to their job?

Jessica Goodman:

I think for me, it was really reevaluating the way that I thought about money. Like I think after having been in jobs where like I got a salary check every other week. That was like, okay, like I know what my monthly expenses are. I know how much my rent is. I know how much my utilities are. Like, I know how much I spend on groceries. Like all that stuff that they tell you. And I knew how to manage that money. Like I knew how much I might be able to save, how much I would need to pay my credit card bill, like all this stuff. But when you get these like big chunks of money, or even just smaller chunks of money from like freelance gigs or whatever, I think it can feel really tempting to just kind of spend it immediately. Even if you're the type of person who is really invested in saving and planning for your future, I think it's hard to conceptualize like how much money you might need for stuff. And especially this year, when I wasn't interested in spending a lot of money at all, based on the kind of times we're in, I splurged on a few things and those things I was thinking about them before we hopped on the call. Those are the things that I really splurged on this year where I turned 30 and I bought myself $80 worth of oysters that were shipped from Cape Cod and an oyster shucker. And that's how I spent my 30th birthday with my partner. We shucked like 50 oysters and save the additional, however many for the next day. And it was such a treat and it was so much fun and something that I'll remember forever. And I bought myself a $90 tie dyed sweatsuit because I am a millennial and on Instagram and it just looked really cozy. And those were like my two big splurges of the year.

Jessica Goodman:

And I know a lot of people, when they get like a book advancer or kind of achieve these really big milestones, they're like, I'm going to buy myself a really expensive piece of jewelry or a fancy handbag, or even like house or whatever. And I mean, I think all of those things are fantastic, but for me, the lesson for me, the lesson here was like, all right, I don't really have anything that I'm ready to splurge on that big right now. I really want to like, save all of this money as much as I can. And those are the things I'm going to splurge on, like oysters and a tie dyed sweatsuit. And knowing that like my big splurge might come later. Like I am saving up to buy a house with my partner. And I think that like my book advance will of course go towards that.

Jessica Goodman:

But realizing that like, I didn't need to spend it all right away I think was a huge revelation, especially because so many people were like, what are you going to treat yourself to? Like your book just came out, like, what are you going to do to mark the occasion? And I didn't really do that much because it just didn't feel right for me. Those were my splurges.

Bobbi Rebell:

I love it. I love the idea of oysters. So tell us your everyday money tip.

Jessica Goodman:

Oh yes. Okay. So this is one that I really got to be obsessed with during the pandemic. Like I am not the type of person that should or would traditionally buy in bulk. Like I live with one other person. We live in a one bedroom apartment. It's very small. We don't have a lot of storage space, but this year I became the kind of person that buys in bulk. Obviously, so many people are doing this during the pandemic, but I don't think I really realized how much you actually save when you buy in bulk and you know what you're going to use in those bulk quantities. And I think the pandemic has really shown people like what they actually use and what is actually important to them. And so for us, like there were a few things that really changed the way I thought about this. One was I started doing like subscribe and save Amazon paper towels and toilet paper. And actually I had done this pre run out of toilet paper in like March moment. So I pat myself on the back for knowing that would be a thing.

Jessica Goodman:

But I think I did the math recently. And it was like if I were to buy a few rolls every time I went to the grocery store, I would spend nearly twice the amount that I do just doing subscribe and save and having them shipped directly to my house. And even though they just sit in boxes in like a corner of our apartment. Because again, small one bedroom apartment, I think it's like totally worth it for us. And the other way that I found this to be really useful was we started buying our wine in cases, which a year ago I would have said like, are you okay? Like what's going on here?

Jessica Goodman:

But my local wine shop, they started offering a 15% discount if you bought a case of wine. And so we basically did the math and we were like, well, we'd be losing money if we didn't do this. And we don't go through them that quickly. I mean, it's no brainer how much money you save. We started looking for ways that you could buy in bulk and save like that. Like the fancy coffee shop near us. If you buy beans in bulk, it's like the same thing. And all these companies now do like subscribe and save membership things, like there's so many coffee ones where like every week they'll send you a bag of beans or whatever. And I think like looking for those has really been super helpful for us and certainly cut down on how we spend.

Jessica Goodman:

The other thing about like this buying in bulk grocery shopping thing is I heard this tip from Carla Lalli Music who used to work at Bon Appetit and now is she's like a chef home cook person on Instagram and has like a fantastic cookbook. But her big tip was always like, if you're ordering groceries, like order all the heavy stuff that's going to be delivered to your apartment. So you don't have to carry stuff, especially in an apartment. And that has been so helpful to me too, where it's like, every time I do like a big shop online or Instacart or Whole Foods or whatever, I get like 10 cans of beans, because like, I don't want to carry that. Or like four jugs of olive oil or like four twelve packs of seltzer because yes, you're buying in bulk. And sometimes you can get discounts that way, but also like who wants to carry that stuff home?

Bobbi Rebell:

Definitely good to always make your life easier. Especially if you are paying those fees to have it delivered. You want to get the most out of that delivery fee. Jessica, thank you so much for being with us, tell us where people can find out more about you. We know your books are available everywhere. We don't know when is the TV series coming.

Jessica Goodman:

TBD on the TV series, but you can stay up to date with all of that info on my Instagram, which is @JessicaGoodman or Twitter @JessGood. And I also have a website goodmanjessica.com. Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. My friends let's do this. Financial Grownup tip number one, Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. And by the way, if you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.Financial Grownup tip number two, get a system going and understand that you might miss things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Bobbi Rebell:

I had so much fun talking with Jessica and her book was really, really a page turner. As I mentioned, it is a murder mystery. And for the record, I really was totally fooled. I didn't see the twists and turns coming. One thing that I've really loved during our forced stayed home time during this pandemic has been catching up on reading fiction and really getting lost in books. We're going to be giving away a few signed copies of Jessica's book to that end so please make sure you are on the Grownup list ASAP so you don't miss that. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you can sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell:

Now while you are there, please check out my big project that I have been working on. I am so excited to see what you guys think. It is the new Grownup Gear Shop. It's a passion project of mine, and I hope you guys will all support it. Podcasts listeners can get 10% off if you use the code “Jessica” within one week of this episode dropping. So just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you'll see the word shop, click on there. Check it out. I hope you guys like it. Big thanks to author Jessica Goodman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Advice, Authors, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Financial Independence, Journalists, Millennial Superstars, Personal Finance, Money, Podcasts, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJessica Goodman, They Wish They Were Us, bobbi rebell, new fiction books, new mystery books, new YA books, cosmopolitan, editor
Shhh... Clever Girl Finance's Bola Sokunbi had a secret luxury handbag habit (ENCORE)
Shhh... Clever Girl Finance's Bola Sokunbi had a secret luxury handbag habit (ENCORE)
2020-Bola Sokunbi instagram (1).png

 

Clever Girl Finance’s Bola Sokunbi is famous for saving $100k on a $54k salary in about 3 years. But then she started dropping $3,000 on a massive collection of luxury handbags, most of which she never even used. 

In Bola’s money story you will learn:

-How she saved more than $100,000 on a salary of just $54,000 in three and a half years

-The side hustle that helped her reach that goal

-How after she reached that goal, she made a very unexpected spending splurge

-The fascinating reason, looking back, that she went down that path and kept going!

-The moment she woke up and realized she had to make a change

-Exactly what she did to get back on track and make a profit in the process

-The regret she had despite making money on her debacle

-Why she thinks so much about Amazon stock

In Bola’s money lesson you will learn:

-Why keeping her handbags in top condition was the key in getting a solid return when she went to sell them

-Other ways to maintain the value of resale able luxury goods like handbags

-Her take on investing in goods like handbags compared to the stock market and corporations

In Bola’s money tip you will learn:

-Ways to get luxury goods like handbags for less money without compromising quality

-Bola’s favorite pre-owned goods resources

-How friends can trade or sell handbags to each other

-Bola’s new strategy for buying expensive handbags

In my take you will learn:

-Why I compare Bola’s handbag venture to winning the lottery

-The difference between saving money and building wealth

-How to sell luxury goods like handbags, as well as other things you can sell, like baby strollers

-Why I do not promote buying fake goods as a cheaper option

Episode links

Bola’s website: CleverGirlFinance.com

Bola’s podcast: Clever Girls Know

Follow Bola!

Twitter Clever Girl Finance

Instagram Clever Girl Finance

Facebook Clever Girl Finance

LinkedIn Bola Sokunbi

 

Also mentioned in the show:

Vestiare Collective

Fashionphile

Rent the Runway

Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
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Bola Sokumbi:
I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather. Like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. You know what, being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. This is one of those, "She did not do that," episodes. My guest was a champ at saving money on a very low income, but once she had that money, things took in unexpected turn and then there was yet another unexpected twist to the story. Bola Sokumbi is a certified financial education instructor and the force behind the very popular, Clever Girl Finance, a website and podcast that empowers and educates women to make the best financial decisions for them. Here is Bola Sokumbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Bola Sokumbi, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am such a fan of yours. First of all, in addition to being a money expert, you are the force behind Clever Girl Finance, which is a website and a podcast. It started after you. I don't even know how you did this. You saved $100,000 in three and a half years on a salary of, I want to say, about $50,000?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I was making $54,000 before taxes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Give us just the high level. How you did that.

Bola Sokumbi:
I basically got lean and mean with, probably, my finances. I contributed to my retirement fund from my employer because I knew they were offering a match and that was a way for me to get some free money. I kept my expenses super low. I avoided my friends and stayed home. I wasn't going out to eat very much. I wasn't buying alcohol. I was the-

Bobbi Rebell:
Temporarily, right?

Bola Sokumbi:
Temporarily.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Bola Sokumbi:
I was in a steady ramen noodles and coke diet. I focused on saving 40 to 50% of my paycheck and anything extra.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I save my tax returns, my bonuses. I try to save as much as possible. I also started a side hustle. I started a wedding photography business, which really helped to increase the amount of money I was bringing in. That helped contribute to me being able to save that amount of money. Finally, I avoided credit cards as best I could. I, instead, used a charge card that require me to pay my balance in full every month. That kept me really mindful about my spending, but overall, it was really just setting the intention that I wanted to save and I wanted to challenge myself to save six figures. I put my mind to it. I gone to that focus and three and a half years later, I was able to save that $100,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
So smart. In full details, if anyone wants, go to Clever Girl Finance. I want to talk about your money story that you brought because Bola, this is like an incredible story given what you just said.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here you are. You got $100,000. You're hustling with a side hustle. You're eating ramen noodles. You're doing everything intentionally, maxing out your retirement account to get the max. What do you do? You start buying $3,000 handbags. Tell us what, what.

Bola Sokumbi:
Holla.

Bobbi Rebell:
What?

Bola Sokumbi:
Let me break it down. Basically, I got to this point where I had saved a ton of money. I had a lot of money in the bank. Actually, at the end of the four years, I had about $150,000 saved. I was making more money. I had my business. I gone raising at my job. I was earning, now, well over six figures at this point. I was like "Wow, I have all this money. I maxed out my retirement savings. I'm still meeting my savings obligations. I just have to treat myself." I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather, like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I personally would've bought a pint of Haagen-Dazs if I wanted to treat myself but okay. $3,000 handbags.

Bola Sokumbi:
I went all the way, yes. I got my first designer handbag like "Oh my God, this is amazing. It's beautiful. I bought this in cash. I love it."

Bobbi Rebell:
What was it? Describe it.

Bola Sokumbi:
It was a Channel Jumbo in black caviar leather with gold hardware, classic, beautiful.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. I wouldn't know.

Bola Sokumbi:
I got the one. Should've been enough, but then I was like well, few months later, I have all the spare money. I'm still saving. I didn't know what to do. I want to invest, but I don't need to invest that much. I'm going to buy another designer handbag. I got to the point where I was buying several handbags for maybe three or four years. To me, it was fine because I was still saving. I was still meeting my obligation.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much do you think you spent in total, Bola, on the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh my goodness. I don't know. If we were to have an Instagram competition on who could grab their handbags steady for the next 30 to 60 days, I would win, every time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait. Wait. You're going to have a different handbag every day for 30 to 60 days?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah, I could. Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Bola Sokumbi:
I could've. I have a lot of handbags. I had them in different colors-

Bobbi Rebell:
Were they just sitting in the closet? Were you taking them to work? What was going on with the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
That's the sucky part. I maybe use like two or three. Well, I was exaggerated. I didn't have 60. Exaggerating. About a month. Let's say, a month. I didn't really use them. That was a disappointing factor. I'm one of those people that believe that if there's something that you like and it's something that you're going to use, go for it as long as you plan it out financial, but I wasn't using them. They did not make financial sense for me. I was using like one or two of them, and then maybe the others, I would look at or wear to a baby shower for 25 minutes and it goes right back into the closet. It did not make any financial sense. Fortunately, for me, at the time that I purchase them, for those of you who are into handbags, knew that there have been a flurry of price increases especially with the higher end luxury brands.

Bola Sokumbi:
At the time I bought the handbags, I bought them before the crazy price increases started. I got to a point where I was like "Okay, this doesn't make any sense." I will look in my closet and all I would see would be dollar bills stacked up. My husband is like "You need to let these go. You don't even use them. It doesn't make sense. You feel so guilty about having them because you're not using them." I took it upon myself to sell almost every one of them. I still have a few. The ones I use. It was really hard to sell them because I felt like I was selling my children. It's crazy. When I think about it, it's ridiculous, but I sold them. Luckily, for me, because of the price increases, I was able to sell them for a lot more than I purchase. That very first Channel handbag, the black jumbo I just described with caviar hardware, I paid $2,900 for it and I sold it for $5,500.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness. Only you, Bola, would actually turn a cringeworthy shopping habit into a positive investment experience.

Bola Sokumbi:
However, Bobbi, to the point you asked me before we started recording was, I made money but when I think about it, I really didn't make that much money because one of the things that trigger me to start selling those handbags was Amazon stock. I realized that if I had spent all that money I spent on those handbags on Amazon Stock, I would've had times 100 of what I had spent on handbags. Not just doubling my money. I would've like times 100 it, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
If you had actually bought Amazon Stock, but truthfully, how much do you think ... do you think you spent $90,000 on handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh, I don't know. Over a three to four year period, I spent a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. You bought 30 handbags at $3,000 each.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I had about 30. They were not all the same price.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Bola Sokumbi:
They were not all $3,000 handbags.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was the most expensive one?

Bola Sokumbi:
The Channel handbags I had. They were about in the $3,000, $3,500 range at that time. Now, they're not anymore. They're about 6 to $7,000 now.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I don't own any more handbags by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson from this beyond the fact that there was a time in life when investing in handbag was actually an appreciable asset? Still, they probably know. I don't know the market, but anyway, beyond the fact that it actually turned on to be a good investment.

Bola Sokumbi:
I wouldn't even describe as an appreciable handbag because for me, it was just purely for the fact that I was not using them. No one is going to pay you top dollar for a handbag that has been worn and beat up. If you're buying something, I believe that you should be using it. Lesson for this is cost per wear. You can have 100 Channel handbags if you want to have them and if you can afford them and you're paying for them in cash and it's not taking off your financial goals, but what is your cost per wear. How often are you using them? Are you getting your money's worth? If you buy a handbag for $3,000 and you wear it once, then that one time you wore it cost you $3,000 and that makes no sense. If you buy this handbag and you wear it 3,000 times over four years, then that handbag cost you $1 or maybe it comes down to cents and pennies and that starts to make more sense because as opposed to buying $25 handbags over that three-year period and use that one handbag over that time and you get your cost per wear.

Bola Sokumbi:
To me, cost per wear is really important. That's how I plan out my wardrobe. I still buy fancy things, but I have to be using them. I have to get my cost per wear down to pennies for it to make sense. I know when I see something if I'm going to use it or not. Understand your cost per wear. People may think, "Oh, buying handbags is crazy," but people spend their money on different things. For me, it was the handbag thing. Some people spend their money on electronics, on cars, on things that they don't necessarily use like having a second car in your garage that you drive on Saturday is not good to drive per wear.

Bobbi Rebell:
The handbags make you feel good.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I would pick a handbag over a lot of things. That was me. That was a lesson I learned. I put the money right back into my investment accounts. I was better for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's stick with the handbag thing. What is your money tip, your everyday money tip for everyone?

Bola Sokumbi:
I would say that if you are a handbag girl like me, no shay, no judgment, find ways to get the handbags that you like at a cheaper cost or without putting out so much money. For instance, Bobbi, you and I talked about Rent the Runway. You really like that. If you want to actually own them, you can think about getting them preowned from sties like Fashion File or Vestiaire Collective. There's a bunch of different ones that are reputable that sell authentic products or even local consignment stores in New York. There's a ton of them. Or buying them off of friends who are trying to let go of their handbags or trying to recycle their wardrobe. Those are great ways that you can get luxury at a lower cost. You can also wait until some of these handbags go into the sale and purchase them that way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because a lot of them are really classic.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yes. It's all about buying something that you know you're going to use for a long time. I tend to avoid any trend pieces because I don't want to be out of fashion next year after spending all this money on it. I buy bags that I can carry forever. That's what I do. Every purchase I make right now, I carry that bag to shreds, basically.

Bobbi Rebell:
Definitely. Get that cost per wear down. Where can people find you and learn more about Clever Girl Finance?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. You can find me on my website at clevergirlfinance.com, on Instagram at Clever Girl Finance, on Facebook, Clever Girl Finance. I also have a podcast called, Clever Girls Know. You can search for it on iTunes, Stitcher, Sound Cloud. You'll find it there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think everyone should definitely check all of that out. I am a big fan. Thank you so much, Bola.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. Except for the fact that she was ironically able to sell the handbags at a profit, this whole thing reminds me of what happens when people inherit a ton of money or they win the lottery and then they just don't know what to do, so they go shopping. Financial Grownup tip number one, Bola was great at accumulating money but she was selling herself short when it came to building wealth. She was meeting her goals in terms of saving and investing and all that, but that doesn't mean she couldn't move the goal post given the resource that she had and make even more ambitious goals. Not a problem to buy a bag that you can afford, but she wasn't even using most of them. Bola is very specific that, well, they ironically went up in value if she had invested the money. In her case, she talks about Amazon Stock, she would've made a lot more money. Of course, you could lose money in the stock market. There's no guarantee of that. It's just something to consider.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two, if you do buy luxury goods and you aren't using them, it is easier than ever to sell them, so many resources online. You may not make as big a profit as Bola did, you may lose money but you're still going to get some cash. I have sold some bags on the real wheel. I've been happy to have the cash even though it went for less than I paid. You can also buy slightly used bags there at a discount if you want them. As I've said before, you can rent them at Rent the Runway or other similar websites. I will leave some links in the show notes for you guys. Given these resources, I would also urge you to stay away from the fakes. It undermines the economy and the business of the companies that produce the real thing. Don't buy fake bags. Also, it is illegal.

Bobbi Rebell:
We want you to be a financial grownup. Send us an email to info@financialgrownup.com if you want to be considered for one of our monthly listener episodes. Just tell us what the money story is that you want to share and your everyday money tip. If you have not already, please rate and review the podcast on iTunes, Apple Podcast. That helps others discover us and grow the community. It is truly appreciated. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any upcoming episodes and follow me at Bobbi Rebell on Twitter @ bobbirebell1 on Instagram and on Facebook, I am at Bobbi Rebell. Bola is the best. I am so appreciative that she was brave enough to get really candid. She definitely got us all one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media Production.

Advice, Business, Career, Financial Grownup, Financial Independence, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Women Role Models, Entrepreneurs, Shopping, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanBola Sokunbi, Clever Girls Finance, podcast, Women in business, women entrepreneurs, women and money, role model, entrepreneur, wealth, advice, money advice, blogger, mommy bloggers
Puppy love is priceless, but could cost you big with Inspired Budget’s Allison Baggerly
Puppy love is priceless, but could cost you big with Inspired Budget’s Allison Baggerly

Allison Baggerly’s emergency fund was literally a life saver for her beloved dog Joey. She shares her money story, along with an everyday money tip that rescued her from an expensive online shopping habit she developed during the coronavirus pandemic. 

Allison Baggerly

Allison’s Money Story:

Allison Baggerly:
Well, when my husband and I were working to pay off debt, we had two teacher salaries, we were living on two teacher's salaries, working to pay off debt. And we have our dog, Joey, he's still here with us today. He's old, but he is well, and we were visiting family. We left to go see some friends and our dog thought we were leaving him for good. I don't know if he thought maybe we didn't love him anymore. I don't know what happened. But he jumped a chain link fence, ripped out a toenail. The emergency vet we took him to did not give him a strong enough prescription for his size, and he also wrapped his leg too tight.

Allison Baggerly:
So by the time we took off the wrap, he had actually developed gangrene in his leg. And so we were two poor teachers. We basically drained our savings to cover the cost of his leg amputation. I'll never forget feeling so stressed and so overwhelmed because I thought how are we going to pay for this? How are we going to pay for our beloved dog who had this accident? It was completely unexpected. And so we just felt very lost and very helpless in that moment.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what happened? First of all, did you go back to the vet and have certainly at the very least, I mean, how could they have charged you for this given that it sounds like there was some fault on their part?

Allison Baggerly:
So we never were able to prove fault on their part. I was just so emotionally worked up and focused on our dog that I was just like, you know what? I don't even care. People were like you need to get revenge. You need to get your money back. And so we ended up getting some of the money back. Actually my father-in-law contacted his homeowners insurance and somehow they covered the cost of that vet visit, but we had to be out of pocket for the amputation. We actually took them to two different vets to get him looked at. And then our vet was the one who did the amputation and he said he had never seen a case so bad. It was rapidly, like you could see it going up his leg over time. And so it was a matter of, we knew we had to pay for it. Thankfully we didn't have to go into debt or put it on a credit card for it, but it completely drained our savings, which made me feel very insecure as a person in terms of my money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, because that was by definition your backstop. And now what happens if something else happens and it teaches us that as much as emergency funds are important, somehow they're never enough, especially we see what's going on with Coronavirus. We've talked about three to six months emergency funds as being sort of the gold standard. And here we are six months passed. So this is a reminder that it's not only coronavirus that can really devastate an emergency fund. There's so many things that happen. And of course with medical stuff, with humans and with furry friends, you can't always get a second opinion in an emergency. I mean, you were stuck with a medical help you could get at that moment, and you couldn't really go in and be negotiating the bill. You needed medical help. It was an emergency,

Allison Baggerly:
It was an emergency. We needed it right then, or else it would spread to his body and he would have died. It just goes to show you that so often people say $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 is enough while you're paying off debt. And that taught me that it wasn't. It wasn't enough. I was not prepared to cover those types of things. And those things are going to happen whether or not you like it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I have to ask you, so I'm guessing you did not have pet insurance at the time.

Allison Baggerly:
No, we didn't have pet insurance and we don't have pet insurance now. We just paid for it out of our savings, it completely drained it. We ended up actually canceling, my husband had a work trip that he was going to be going on. We ended up canceling that work trip. He was going to have to pay for things like hotel and food so that we could try to increase our savings or put some of that money back in our savings account for the future and build it back up.

 
“You can never have too much money in savings. If you are working to pay off debt it is ok to pause that goal in order to increase your savings.”
 

Allison’s Money Lesson:


Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson for our listeners from the story? When you look back on it, how many years ago was it?

Allison Baggerly:
It was about seven years ago. He's actually lived longer with three legs than he has with four. So it was about seven years ago. And I would say my lesson is that you can never have too much money in savings and that if you're working to pay off debt, it's okay to pause that goal to increase your savings. Even though it's not fun, even though you might not feel like you're making progress, it will be worth it because there will come a time when you are thankful that you have that money set aside even if it feels like it's just sitting there doing nothing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you know how much? Where is the balance though? A lot of people are always confused about that. What's your opinion?

Allison Baggerly:
My opinion is three to six months of your emergency expenses. Usually if you're going to do something like lose a job, hopefully you'll be able to get a new one within that time. So I teach people to actually calculate how much they would need for an emergency budget. Meaning you do things like cancel Hulu, cancel Apple Music. Those types of things can go in an emergency situation. So it's going to vary per person. But I definitely don't think that even just 1,000 or $2,000 isn't enough because it doesn't cover much anymore

Bobbi Rebell:
Such a good point. But you also point out, well that even like for now in Coronavirus times it's been six months, but yet we are spending less because we're home. So when you're in an emergency situation, you will probably not have the same financial needs as you would have. So you have to make those adjustments.

 
“I created a tracker and I literally will color in a box every single day that I complete one of my goals. It’s fun for me to see myself visually see myself reaching three small goals that support my bigger money goals.”
 

Allison’s Money Tip:

Allison Baggerly:
So my everyday money tip is one that I've actually started doing in the coronavirus pandemic. I realized that I was spending so much money online. I don't know if I was maybe processing everything and turning to my emotions. I was stressed and I was stress shopping online, but I realized I was spending so much money on Amazon, it was ridiculous. And so I created basically a tracker to track three money goals. I said, you know what? I need to get back on track with my goals of not spending so much money online and doing different things that helped me financially. And so I created this tracker and I literally will color in a box every single day that I complete one of my goals. And they're so simple.

Allison Baggerly:
One of them is to cook dinner at home, one of them is no online shopping and the other one is exercise. Even though that might not be a money goal, it does help you out financially in years to come. I track those things so that I can build those better habits and just continue to take one step closer every single day to the money goals that I want to achieve.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you manage it if a day you don't do one of the goals? How do you get back on track?

Allison Baggerly:
I just say, okay, you know what? I didn't do it today. That's okay. This is one day, tomorrow is different. So there are days when I don't cook dinner at home whenever I knew I was planning on doing that. And instead of beating myself up for it, instead of saying like, Oh, I failed, I'll just go ahead and start over in the next month or I'll just wait. I'll just keep failing for the next couple of days. Instead of assigning that to my identity, I just say, okay, this happened, thankfully there's still however many days left in the month where I can turn this around and make progress. And so it's fun for me to actually visually see myself reaching three small goals, which those three small goals, they support my bigger money goals. I know if I do these three small things every day, that they can actually make a difference in my big goals that I have set.


Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

So many people have been adopting pets during COVID-19, which is amazing, but please make sure you understand the financial commitment before you do so.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

If you aren't ready for the financial and lifestyle commitment, or you're just not sure, consider fostering dogs in need while they are waiting for a permanent home. You can get some welcome company and love during the pandemic and really help a pet in need.


Episode Links:

Follow Allison!

 
 
 
 

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Advice, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanAllison Baggerly, Unexpected Expense, Expenses, Pet, Pets, Pet Insurance, Vet, Bills
Episode 300! Being a Financial Grownup Really IS Hard
Episode 300! Being a Financial Grownup Really IS Hard

After 300 episodes Bobbi shares some of her hardest times as a financial grownup. 

Episode 300

Bobbi shares the Financial Grownup lessons she’s learned from her failures throughout life and how to put a positive spin on those failures.



Follow Bobbi


Please rate and review the podcast HERE! Your review helps others, like you, to find the podcast!

Advice, Authors, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanBobbi Rebell, Solo Episode, Episode 300, Failure, Confessions
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 essential ways to create a successful business from anywhere with Entrepreneur Cait Scudder
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 essential ways to create a successful business from anywhere with Entrepreneur Cait Scudder
Cait Scudder Instagram

Entrepreneur coach Cait Scudder built a 6 figure business while living abroad overcoming numerous obstacles. She shares her specific strategies to help build a grownup business focused on sustainable product growth and revenue streams. 

5 essential ways to create a successful business

Cait Scudder:
Well, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here and I'm so excited to be talking about this. I think for so many entrepreneurs, creating a successful business, whether you're running it from a laptop or abroad or whether you're running it out of your living room, feels like it's this enigmatic thing. So, I'm really excited to break down some really tangible steps to help your listeners apply it to their own businesses.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and I'm a little bit of a snob about this. I don't like all this mumbo jumbo. You are specific, and focused, and I love that. So, you've got five tips and then we have some other special stuff after this. So, stick with us, guys. Number one is basically, figure out the problem that you're going to solve for people, right?

Cait Scudder:
Absolutely. So, the first thing I would say if you are looking to build a six-figure business, and scale it to multiple six figures and beyond, is you have to be so crystal clear on the problem that you help people solve. It is not enough to just say, "Well, I want to be a consultant for leaders" or "I want to be a health coach" or whatever other niche that you're in. Dial that right in to get so specifically clear on the problem that you help your clients solve and how you do that with the solution that you offer.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, what would be an example of a client that had this problem and how do they really figure out what problem they were solving for?

Cait Scudder:
So, one of the exercises that I lead my clients through, let's take a health-coaching coach, for example. If you are looking to build out a health-coaching business, somebody who helps their clients achieve either weight loss or higher levels of energy, the problem that you might help somebody solve is losing 15 pounds or losing 20 pounds. What you need to do if you want to dial that right in and then be able to build a compelling brand and a compelling message from that is, get super clear. Not only on that problem point as if it's a bullet point in your notebook, but what's the pain that somebody is experiencing as a result of having that problem? So, one of the things that I think happens a lot is entrepreneurs get stuck in this messaging spiral of, well, I'm listing out my client's problems, but they're not responding.

Cait Scudder:
I think the biggest thing that happens when we do that is that we're not actually speaking to the pain, the ripple effect pain I call it, that those problems caused. So, for example, if a client is struggling with low energy, they're feeling overweight, they're feeling not confident in their bodies, how is that actually playing out in their lives? Maybe they can't walk up the stairs without running out of breath. Maybe they can't bend over to pick up their grandchild and not feel like they have to sit down. So, really dialing your messaging straight in to the problem that you help people solve. The pain that it's going to help them get out of in painting the picture and creating offers that help somebody do that in a step-by-step way is such a powerful step for your business and for your marketing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which brings us to your second tip, which is to figure out what exactly the offer is.

Cait Scudder:
Exactly. So, the second thing that you need to do is build out an offer. I always say to my clients, especially who offer their services, so consultants, any kind of strategists is, it's very, very important to be able to build a product in your client's mind as if it were a tangible product that you could put on top of your desk. So, if you're offering a six-month consultancy package or a retainer offer, what does that look like? What's the result that somebody is going to get? And the way that you want to think about your offers is in two different pieces. The first is the framework, and the second are the features. So, your framework might look like, for example, in my business coaching consultancy, I have a framework that's based on three different things: energy, strategy, and sales. When you can nail all three of those as a business owner, you are golden.

Cait Scudder:
So, the energy piece is, what does your vibe put out? How are you attracting your ideal client, how you are attracting your audience. The second piece of strategy is, what are the offers that you're building out? How are we marketing you in a way that is magnetic in a way that draws your people in? And thirdly, in sales, obviously, we need to make sales if we're going to be in business. So, what I really recommend entrepreneurs to do if they're struggling to build out an offer, is think about what's the framework that you move somebody through and what are the features? How long is your package for? What does it include? What's the scope of work? And when you can be so specifically clear on the process that you move somebody through, the framework, and the way that you do that in the tangible breakdown, the features, that's when you really have a rock-solid offer to bring to the market.

Bobbi Rebell:
The third thing is something I am so uncomfortable with myself, get comfortable with marketing. It is so hard, Cait. I feel this personally.

Cait Scudder:
Really, Bobbi? You're definitely not alone. And I have to be honest, at the beginning when I started my business, I felt so uncomfortable with it. I felt like, "Hang on, squawking about all of this stuff that I do for other people like this is so uncomfortable." Here's what I've come to see it as. When you are marketing your services or your products or your free content even, because let's be real, promoting a podcast or promoting a blog article, all of that is marketing. You are educating and you are empowering your audience with pieces of content, with pieces of information, and pieces of education that help them move towards a result. And I think that when you can have that internal shift as an entrepreneur from, "Oh, this is so self-indulgent. Who would want to read about this? This is so self-aggrandizing." And really flip that script to say, "Hey, me showing up and waving this flag loud and proud is helping somebody else who's seeing this achieve a result," and that is such an empowered place both for you and for your audience.

Bobbi Rebell:
The fourth one, also a pain point for me, confidence in selling. I always struggle with this, Cait. I really do.

Cait Scudder:
You know what? I hear you and especially for women, Bobbi, I personally think that we are not necessarily taught to move into a sales conversation or move into a sales context, with the same level of permission and confidence that for whatever reason I feel like men just intrinsically feel. I'm sure that's not the case for everybody, but I definitely know so many women who struggle with this piece.

Cait Scudder:
Here's my take on this. When you sell somebody your product or your service, you are giving them the pathway to a solution. If you don't sell, if you don't speak about what your offer is, if you never let somebody know how they can work with you and what's possible as a result, you are literally robbing from them the possibility for getting that result and you helping them. And I think when you really flip that script and look at, "Hang on, this is not just some selfish manipulative, greasy car salesman tactic. This is me showcasing the possibility that somebody has to achieve this solution with me." You really put yourself in the game, and you give your market confidence to buy from you.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the fifth thing is, be consistent.

Cait Scudder:
That is absolutely right. I think that there is no... One of the best pieces of advice, Bobbi, that I've ever been given in entrepreneurship is, don't get too high and don't get too low. When it comes to being your own boss and running things your own way, creating your own schedule, running your own team, there's so many opportunities to get knocked off your horse to feel like you just want to throw in the towel and crawl back into bed and you just don't want to do it. And that is the biggest thing that I think swipes entrepreneurs off their path is, feeling like I had a good day, I want to show up, had a bad day, I don't want to show up. Guys, if you take one thing away from this, let it be this. You are going to have great days. You're going to have hard days. It's your commitment to staying the course. That is the thing that's going to see you through. Just remember, you cannot fail if you just keep going.

Bobbi Rebell:
I also want you to share, it's kind of a bonus for our listeners. You have a lot of everyday things that you do. Some things I do too that really help in terms of the day-to-day, like the way that you schedule your week, which is something I do as well.

Cait Scudder:
Yes, absolutely. So, one of the best hacks, oh my gosh, this just saves so much time, so much mental bandwidth for me is scheduling a CEO day. So, on Mondays, I mean, I'm on the phone a lot of the time, whether it's on the phone with clients, group calls, individual calls, collaborators, I'm on the phone a lot. Mondays are my CEO day, which means I don't take any calls. Monday is my day to work completely on my business, and not be in anybody else's business. And that has been so helpful for not only block scheduling and batching out what I need to do in a week, but also for keeping me super on point when I'm coaching on the other days and just very, very focused on what I need to do. I think that as entrepreneurs and as CEOs, one of our biggest forms of currency is our focus and our attention. So, scheduling in a CEO day is going to massively help you feel organized and sane as you move into the week. And I recommend doing it on a Monday because who doesn't love moving into the week feeling organized and sane?

Cait Scudder:
The second thing I would say is, create a little routine for yourself on a daily basis. And I don't mean wake up at 5:00 AM, meditate, do power yoga, sit in lotus for 25 minutes. No, you don't have to do any of that. For me, one of the things that I have is a non-negotiable. I wake up, I have some water with lemon, I exercise for half an hour to 45 minutes, and I move into my day after doing a little bit of gratitude practice. And I might think about things in the shower. I don't spend hours journaling in the morning. But I think that if you can mentally and physically prime your body in the morning, you're really setting yourself up for success.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also talk a lot about the mindset that's involved because it's important that we be aware of what other people are doing. First of all, we learn from them and you should just always be aware of competition, let's be real. And also, I believe a lot of competition, it's actually expanding businesses. So, I believe in cooperation over competition in general, but it's also important not to compare too much, right?

Cait Scudder:
Absolutely. So, I think one of the biggest things that knocks us off our horse is this feeling of imposter syndrome of, "She's doing it better than me" or "they already have this established company" or "who am I to come into this space?" And I think whenever that happens, and let's be real, it happens for all of us, the most important way that we can shift out of that is moving your attention from comparison, from analyzing all of your flaws and your worthiness and your capability. Taking your attention off of all of that comparison and "not good enough" noise, and moving it back to a place of service, and moving it back to a place of all of the reasons why you and you alone are the best equipped to serve your people. Why you have moved through everything that you've been through in your life, in your business and your experience in order to be able to offer what you're doing.

Cait Scudder:
And just remember, if you are not showing up for your people, you're taking away from them the opportunity that they have to experience what's possible on the other side. So, the more that you can give yourself permission to let go of the comparing mind, which is our ego's way of keeping us safe, and go back to all of the ways that you're equipped to help somebody, you're going to be of so much more service and you're going to make a heck of a lot more money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to finally just touch on something that you have some strong opinions on. And that is MLMs, multilevel marketing. It's important. There's some really good ones out there, but you also have a lot to say about the fact that some of them are scammy. What do people need to know?

Cait Scudder:
I think that there are a lot of amazing people out there building a successful business in network marketing. I think there are great companies out there that offer possibilities for people, but do your homework, guys. I think it's very important to know what you're getting into and to really... And this is the case, whether you're in an MLM or you're building your own business or you're working for somebody else, quite frankly, is you need to be 100% behind the mission, the ethos, the values of whatever it is that you're selling.

Cait Scudder:
So, rather than just looking at a shiny object as a way to make a little bit more money in your bank account month after month, really ask yourself, "Is being affiliated with this community or this company something that I'm going to feel proud of in 10 years? Do I align with the values and the greater impact that this company is making?" Because ultimately, whether you are just one person in a rank or you are an entrepreneur under your own brand, you are representing a brand and that brand is yourself. And so, you really want to make sure that you align at a deep level with whatever it is that you're standing behind.

Episode Links:

Follow Cait!

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Advice, Career, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Money, Millennial Superstars, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Productivity, Role Models, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanCait Scudder, Business, Career, Career Coach, Ted Talk, Entrepreneur, Success Tips, Productivity, Build A Business, Six Figure Business
Top New Money Books for Grownups Right Now (Winter 2020)
Top New Money Books for Grownups Right Now (Winter 2020)
Money Books Winter 2020 Instagram

Bobbi reveals her favorite new money related books, and how to decide if they are right for you. This month’s picks include Don’t Keep Your Day Job by Cathy Heller, The Big Stretch by Teneshia Warner, The Future is Faster Than You Think by Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler, Napkin Finance by Tina Hay and Bow Dow by Lindsay Goldwert.

These are recommendations so I am going to focus on why I was drawn to them and what I got out of them- and full disclosure we do focus  on books written by authors that appear on the podcast- because if we are being honest when I love a book- I want to know more and I want to share that with you guys so we tend to reach out and try to get them on.

Book #1: Don’t Keep Your Day Job: How to Turn your Passion into your Career by Cathy Heller

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-The book is practical and specific. She gives down to earth advice about how to realistically follow your passion but in a very practical way. 

- She shares advice from experts including authors Jen Sincero and Gretchen Rubin and actress Jenna Fischer. There are also stories about every day people to make it relatable.

-There are lots of inspirational quotes like "Why did it have to be an ‘either-or’ when it could be a ‘yes and’?”

Who is this book for:

Don’t keep your day job will motivate just about anyone but it is especially for people looking for advice on well.. how to leave their corporate jobs. Also Entrepreneurs who need a little nudge to connect doing what they love, with doing something that another person or entity will pay for. Emphasis on getting paid.  

Book #2: The Big Stretch: 90 Days to Expand Your Dreams, Crush Your Goals, and Create Your Own Success by Teneshia Warner

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

-It shares the success stories of some of the dreamers that have spoken at those conferences

-It has a time line: 90 days with specific assignments

-Teneshia’s personality shines through and is the real gem in this book

Who is this book for:

It’s for people willing to do the work to get to their goals and The Big Stretch will help you decide if that is you. Not everyone is ready to go for it- and Teneshia sets expectations that will push you to get there- but only if you are ready. 

Book #3: The Future is Faster Thank You Think. How Converging Technologies Are Transforming Business, Industries and Our Lives by Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler.

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-At first I was intimidated by the book- in part because it’s authors are so accomplished as “Big” Thought Leaders. But once I started reading it, this actually became a page turner because of the very accessible way they approach what are often complicated topics, 

-It’s a little like looking into a crystal ball except after- and only after they lay out theories and predictions, you realize that to a large degree. the way things play out was logical all along. They touch on everything from AI, to digital biology, virtual reality, robotics and blockchain.

-The book made me smarter about our world and who doesn’t love just feeling like they have a better handle on our world. 

Who is this book for:

Truth- This is all stuff I just wasn’t that into- until I started reading the book. So even if this isn’t your thing- move out of your comfort zone and just start. You might be surprised how much you like it, just like I did. 

Book #4: Napkin Finance: Build your Wealth in 30 seconds or less by Tina Hay.

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

-It addresses the very basics of financial literacy in a unique and approachable way

-Napkin Finance explains some of the most misunderstood and confusing topics ranging from blockchain to credit scores and paying off student debt.

-Fun fact: Napkin Finance partnered with Michelle Obama’s Better Make Room campaign 

Who is this book for:

Napkin Finance is a book for beginners- and for those of us that can benefit from some re-enforcement and sometimes clarification of financial concepts- most basic but some kind of complicated. 

Bonus Book: Bow Down: Lessons from Dominatrixes on How to Get Everything You Want by Lindsay Goldwert.

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-Lindsay is very revealing about her own challenges and makes you feel like you are in it together with her

-The doms- as Lindsay often refers to the dominatrixes share some very specific advice about how they negotiate and hold on to power

-There is a lot of psychology and real insights into human behavior and what triggers certain reactions. By revealing these Lindsay helps us see why we get the reactions we do, and how we can pivot to get.. well everything we want. 

Who is this book for:

Everyone that wants to get everything they want- of course. 

Episode Links:

Cathy Heller’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Don’t Keep Your Day Job: How to Turn your Passion into your Career

Teneshia Warner’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of The Big Stretch: 90 Days to Expand Your Dreams, Crush Your Goals, and Create Your Own Success

Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of The Future is Faster Thank You Think. How Converging Technologies Are Transforming Business, Industries and Our Lives

Tina Hay’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Napkin Finance: Build your Wealth in 30 seconds or less

Lindsay Goldwert’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Bow Down: Lessons from Dominatrixes on How to Get Everything You Want.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Advice, Authors, Career, Entrepreneurs, Business, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Get Paid More, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanBooks, Author, Authors, Money, Money Books, Financial Grownup, Cathy Heller, Don't Keep Your Day Job, The Big Stretch, Teneshia Warner, The Future is Faster Than You Think, Peter Diamandis, Steven Kotler, Tina Hay, Lindsay Goldwert
How to sell without selling out with Don’t Keep your Day Job’s Cathy Heller
How to sell without selling out with Don’t Keep your Day Job’s Cathy Heller
Cathy Heller Instagram

Music entrepreneur, author, coach and podcast host Cathy Heller was crushed early in her career when her record label dropped her. But she discovered another way to make money from her music and staged the ultimate multi-million dollar comeback. 


Cathy’s Money Story:

Cathy Heller:
Yeah. My money story. I came out to LA wanting to write music. That was all I knew I loved doing as a kid. I thought, all right, I'm going to do that thing that you see them do in movies. I'm going to go out to LA. I grew up on the East Coast. I was going to figure it out and I had to get a job and pay the bills. I got a job as an assistant in an office and I had a roommate and she was an actress and I was doing my thing. And eventually I started writing music and I wrote some mediocre songs and they got better. And I finally got a record deal. I actually did. I remember sitting with Ron Fair at Interscope, I had just signed and Lady Gaga was there recording Paparazzi and I was like, oh my God, I'm sitting in this room. It's amazing.

Bobbi Rebell:
That must've been so surreal.

Cathy Heller:
It was really surreal. And by the way, hearing Paparazzi recorded is really cool because if you go back now and listen, you'll hear what I'm referring to. There's all these strings on the recording and it makes the pop music just sound like some other dimension is going on and it's beautiful. It was just amazing. But I got dropped from the label a few months later. While I was actually sitting there in the studio, Ron Fair, my producer at the time, he said to me, "You know Cathy, when I first came out to LA, I met with Bill Conti." Bill Conti is the guy who did the music for Rocky and so many other iconic movies and he said to him, "You know Ron, you're a really good songwriter but you're an amazing producer." And he said, "And I wound up making a living really as one of the best producers in the industry."

Cathy Heller:
And I remember that story and I didn't know three, four months later that I'd get dropped from the label, but I did and I wound up going and getting a quote unquote real job and I did so many things. I worked in a floral design studio. I thought, oh, if I can't do the thing I love that's creative, I'll do something else creative. As if it's going to scratch that same itch and it doesn't. I think we all have tried that. And then a friend of mine said, "If you're not going to do what you love, just make money." And I said, "Well how do you do that?" She said, "You do real estate." She said, "I know a guy who works in commercial real estate, he lives in Brentwood. You should go work for him."

Cathy Heller:
She introduces me and I start working in commercial real estate. I don't know the first thing about cap rates or mortgages and he says, "All you have to do is pick up the phone, call about 20 to 30 people a day and set some meetings for me and I'll give you good money if you can set meetings." And I wound up being pretty good at it and then I was there for two years and it was really like golden handcuffs because he was paying me a 150 grand to sit at this desk and make phone calls for him.

Bobbi Rebell:
Life is going by and you're not in the music business.

Cathy Heller:
No, I wasn't doing anything I loved. And I remember one day I was driving and I was crying so hard, I had to pull over to the side of the road and I thought to myself, I just, I don't know where I went, but I don't recognize myself. I am not this girl. I don't wear pantsuits. I don't blow my hair out. I don't talk this way. And I thought, gosh, we were talking about Tony Robbins before because he wrote the forward to your book and he always says, "Success without fulfillment is like the ultimate failure." And I felt like I couldn't breathe. I was like, I don't care that I'm driving a cute little Mercedes convertible. I don't care that I can eat sushi whenever I want. I don't feel like myself. I am so not me.

Cathy Heller:
And I decided I was going to quit and I quit my job, which I don't recommend to people. What I recommend to people now is that you build a runway and build a side hustle and validate your idea. And there's so many great tools and ways to do that so that you don't have to just jump. But I did. I couldn't take it. I just jumped.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was that like when you went in? You just went in one day and quit. Did you have overhead? Rent? You didn't have a family at the time, I assume.

Cathy Heller:
No, I was only 26. I quit and I thought to myself, oh by the time I run out of whatever tiny amount of savings I have from this job, I'm sure I'll be making money in music. And I saw that there was a whole world of musicians who were licensing their songs to TV shows, like Grey's Anatomy in One Tree Hill at the time and ads for McDonald's and Pepsi and Walmart. And I was like, what is this whole road? I wish I would've known about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm thinking that now. I never even thought about that whole world. And you're just observing it and there's a business behind that.

Cathy Heller:
Oh, it's a huge business. And this article, this article was really opening my eyes. It was telling me that people in this field were making hundreds of thousands of dollars because ad agencies were paying the artists 50, 60, $70,000 a pop for just the use, just the license, not the ownership to use the song in an ad. And television shows were spending something like five or $10,000 per song in an episode. Of course it's more for an ad because there might be one retail ad for a campaign versus 22 episodes and six songs an episode, but still five or 10 grand to have your song used in a show or $50,000 to have your song used in a Walmart spot.

Cathy Heller:
I was getting pretty excited about that and so I made that decision that I would do everything I could to figure out who were the clients, who were the people choosing songs at Paramount and NBC and Lion's Gate and ad agencies like Ogilvy and Deutsche and McCann. Who were those people? And what did they need? And I had never asked myself that question before. Up until that moment, I thought that you either did something you loved that came completely from your heart or you built someone else's dream and you sold out. I never really understood that you could marry the two things, that you could be who you were and feel authentic and at the same time you could know that someone else has a need and a want and that you could answer that with your gifts. And then that's really how you make a living.

Cathy Heller:
And it made so much sense. All of a sudden it's like the lights went on and I thought, wow. And I started telling songwriter friends of mine who were starving and working jobs that they hated, barista jobs and insurance jobs, and I said to them, "Look, have you ever looked at this this way?" And they said, "Oh my gosh, you're going to be such a sell out. You're going to hate the music you write." And I said, "Oh my God."

Bobbi Rebell:
They said that?

Cathy Heller:
Oh, they had so much resistance.

Bobbi Rebell:
Really?

Cathy Heller:
Because people, especially artists believe that if you're really an artist, then you're probably starving because you're so authentic. And that definitely doesn't account for people like Michelangelo who died with $50 million to his name before inflation. He would be a billionaire today. It doesn't account for people like John Williams who's written all the scores to Star Wars and Jaws and all of these movies. It doesn't account for any of the people you've ever supported. Whether it's somebody concert, you go to a piece of art. Why? Because all of the people that I just mentioned are people who absolutely care what their customer, what their audience needs and wants.

Cathy Heller:
And I realize that the difference between a hobby and a business is that a hobby is something you do for you. But a business has to have at its core, radical, radical, radical empathy because it means that something that I'm doing in this world, someone else is going to value and they're going to pay me for it. I got that. And so I got excited. I actually got excited to find out how I could serve and I started to do the next thing which I tell people to do, which is I think everybody has Michael Jordan talent at something. But we're really missing momentum. And what we need to do is validate our ideas and we need to get feedback by going out and talking to human beings about what they need.

Cathy Heller:
And so I started to do that really scary, scary thing, which was pick up the phone and call Warner Brothers and call all these ad agencies and call Disney and call brands and ask questions about what kinds of campaigns, what kinds of stories they were telling, what kinds of things they needed musically. What kinds of sonic palettes. Did they like strings? Did they like ukuleles? Is the story this year about sisters? Is it about female empowerment? Is it about being there for someone? And people I am telling you, they were so happy to tell me what they needed. They were so happy that for the first time in a long time somebody reached out and it was refreshing to them that I wasn't calling to pitch myself and to read a script and try to be impressive.

Cathy Heller:
I was calling to ask what I could do to use my talent to help and long story short, within 18 months I started making $100,000 writing songs for film and TV and then that grew second and third year I started making $300,000 a year and then I got written about in Variety and Billboard and the LA Weekly and when I say written about, it wasn't a two line blurb about this girl who was writing music for film and TV. It was a full page story, not just digitally but in print magazines with a picture of me telling the story about how I was taking matters into my own hands and I was really successful.

 
“A hobby is something you do for you. But a business has to have at it’s core radical empathy. Because it means that something that I am doing in this world someone else is going to value and they are going to pay me for it.”
 

Cathy’s Money Lesson:

Cathy Heller:
You've got to validate your idea and I think what most people do is they think about businesses backwards where they think to themselves, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to sit in my little cave and I'm going to come up with this line of cupcakes or this jewelry I'm going to do or I'm going to write the whole book before they ever test it. Before they ever figure out who would buy this jewelry? Who would eat these cupcakes? And maybe I should go and in tandem with this person who I'm making it for, maybe I should be getting their input, getting feedback and then weaving that feedback into my process. I think that people just don't realize that we make it harder than it needs to be and if you look at any successful company, they are testing ideas all the time. They are paying for your feedback. They are doing focus groups because it works.

Cathy Heller:
And then this sounds really simple but it's usually really hard. You have to go out and tell people about your idea. You have to make sure that you're going out in the world and you are letting people know about it and instead of saying, "Well, I'm going to think about this and noodle around on my about page for 40 hours." No, it's pick up the phone and make the call. Let them know what's so awesome about what you're doing as opposed to telling them, how you do what you do. People forget that we don't buy things, we buy feelings, we buy results. And so often when you ask someone, "Tell me about the thing that you're creating or service you're offering." People sort of get tongue tied.

Bobbi Rebell:
How many people do you think you called for every time you place a song in the early years before you were known?

Cathy Heller:
It's hundreds.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hundreds?

Cathy Heller:
Yeah. And when people would say no to me, and there were times that people not only said no, but said, "Don't ever send music like this. It's so mediocre." And instead of me being completely devastated, because obviously I wasn't completely devastated. I felt bad, I felt gross, I felt stupid sometimes. But I would take the feedback and I knew that I would give myself the grace to get better at it.

 
“I would take the feedback. And I would give myself the grace to get better at it.”
 

Cathy’s Money Tip:

Cathy Heller:
Yeah. My everyday money tip is something that I learned from Jen Sincero who wrote, You are a Badass. When she was on my podcast, she was living at 40 years old in a, she was living in a garage eating cans of tuna fish and she's like, something's got to change. And she did a bunch of self help stuff. And finally somebody said to her, why don't you write a letter to money? And she's like, what does that mean? And she wrote a letter to money and she was like, money, I hate you. Money, you're the reason for everyone's problems. And she realized at the end of the letter that she was carrying around feeling so much resistance to money because deep down money is something that she felt would make her less of a kind person. And that was a choice she didn't want to make. She didn't want to either have money and be a jerk or not have money, but she chose not having money if it meant she would have her integrity.

Cathy Heller:
And so I often tell people, "Why don't you write a letter to money?" Because sometimes what we find out is that at the root of it we might be sabotaging ourself because we might believe that money is something we feel shame around. If it's not shame for having it and being a jerk, sometimes it's shame like who am I to deserve to have good things? And when we can get to the root of that, it's very important because ultimately in life the results of our life, it has to do with what we really deep down want.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about where people can follow up and learn more about you and your podcast and your book and all things Cathy Heller.

 
“We don’t buy things. We buy feelings. We buy results.”
 

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Some of Cathy's best clients were the very ones who rejected her earlier in her career. When I asked Cathy about this after the interview, she explained that if she was being honest with herself, her work just was not that good initially when she pitched them. She had to get better at her craft. It's business. It's not personal. Early rejection is not forever rejection. Try to find out why your work wasn't accepted and then work on the work.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Cathy talked about how some of her musician friends called her a sellout. Look guys, making an honest living is not selling out. There is no glory in being a starving artist. It doesn't make you a better artist to not earn money. Nor by the way, is there any historical precedent for this over romanticized idea. Professional artists, Michelangelo, for example, died in 1564 at the age of 88. His net worth by many reports in the ballpark of $7 million.


Episode Links:

Follow Cathy!

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Advice, Authors, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Get Paid More, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Role Models, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanCathy Heller, Personal Development, Don't Keep Your Day Job, Author, Depression, Purpose
The New Year Episode
The New Year Episode
New Year Episode Instagram

Welcome to a new year and a new decade. Bobbi shares some personal news and insights, and then some big changes coming to the podcast, the financial grownup community, and her other podcast, Money with Friends. 

Happy New Year. I hope everyone enjoyed the holidays and maybe some vacation time with friends and family or however you wanted to celebrate- even if your holidays were solo or whatever- because as a grownup you should be able to celebrate however you want. 

This is a special episode and I’m going to be talking first about some personal decisions I am making and then some decisions having to do with changes here at financial grownup and with my other podcast Money with Friends. 

First- the personal. Today, the day this episode is being released, is my birthday. And the crazy thing is that despite being married, and being a mom, a stepmom and having my dog waffles.. I still am coming to terms with the fact that apparently I am a grownup. 

I am also coming to terms with the fact that I am tired of being overwhelmed and exhausted. At one point last year, I was offered an opportunity by a friend of a friend that I really wanted to do, and I was so busy- I literally just wrote back something like- want to but in overwhelm. It may have even been just the word overwhelm. Between all my business related projects and my personal responsibilities to my family and friends, and just way too many things I said yes to, I was going from early in the morning until I collapsed into bed at night. And that’s not a good state for anyone to be in. And so I need to stop the overwhelm. 

Some of you may have noticed that my instagram got reeeallly quiet in the last 2 weeks of 2019.  We were running encore’s  of the podcast and I just decided not to share my general personal activities while on vacation- at least not in real time. As has become a thing to say- I wanted to be present with my family.  I’m sure it will kill any positive algorithm related momentum because instagram does not like it when you are not active, but I wanted to see how it felt to just not participate. I also didn’t look at what my friends or anyone I follow were up to. Mixed feelings. The truth is I enjoy seeing what my friends are up to. I like knowing where they are going when they travel and what family milestones they are celebrating or just feeling connected even when we are all busy. But it is also time consuming Same thing with posting- love sharing but taking a break freed up lots of time- even if I did use that time to not be all that productive over break. Taking a break, over a vacation break, is a good thing. I’m glad I did it. 

I’m also trying to figure out WHAT to post. I tend to post a lot about my podcast guests because I think they are amazing and really want to get the word out- and I love supporting their projects.  and I’ve been shy about going on camera myself and talking too much about my own life on instagram stories.. but I’d love to hear more about what you guys want. Maybe DM me now that I’m back online- I’ll look out for the notes I promise. 

On that note, I am going to start sharing more about the things that I use on a personal level. If you are signed up for what used to be the financial grownup newsletter- and I know you haven’t gotten one since 2018-  you will soon get something my assistant Ashley and I have been working on for quite some time called The Grownup List- and it will be a very short resource of things I enjoy that you may want to incorporate into your own grownup life. If you want to get on the Grownup List- just go to my website bobbirebell.com and you will see the sign up button. There’s also a link in my Instagram bio at bobbirebell1. I would love to include listener suggestions- so feel free to be in touch at hello@financialgrownup.com if you have ideas to include. 

So now let’s talk about the podcast. I started the podcast about 2 years ago. This is episode 267. I can’t even believe it. My editor Steve Stewart- made a great suggestion to share some of my favorite episodes and I was going to- then came that overwhelm I was taking about! It’s like choosing your favorite children. What I will do is remind you that if you want to learn more about a topic or a guest- go to my website, bobbirebell.com/financialgrownuppodcast and use that search bar - it’s a great resource and can help you find an episode that hits that topic. You can listen or just read the transcript in the show notes. 

I have also felt that because I have been putting out sooo many episodes each one doesn’t always get the attention it deserves because there is always a new one that kind of bumps it from the top of the feed, and from my focus on promoting it. So- I’m going to focus on releasing just one episode  a week going forward. As of now that will be on Tuesdays. 

It will also give me and my social media channels a break from what I sometimes feel is a lot of well.. promotion. Maybe leave a little more space for more content just about life and other things I want to share with all of you. 

I also want to make time for my other projects including my next book- which is going to be a parenting book- more on that to come- and I also am fortunate to work with some prominent brands helping to get their message out, and I enjoy speaking to groups so I want to make sure to keep time for those projects as well. And be in touch if I can be helpful in those areas- if you have events coming up where you need an emcee, a speaker or moderator. 

Finally- exciting news about my other podcast Money with Friends. I hope if you are not already subscribed, you will do so. I’m so proud of how Money with Friends has evolved over the last 7 months since we launched in June. It is now 6 days a week - don’t worry - we batch record so we don’t get overwhelmed). And it is also a short podcast like this one. My co-host is Joe Saul-Sehy - who some of you may know from his other podcast Stacking Benjamins. We have been recording  on Facebook Live but we will be moving to YouTube imminently so please go subscribe to the Money with Friends YouTube channel we started so you can watch us record live- we actually take questions and comments form the audience. You can also be part of the show by participating in our instagram stories polls and questions- the handle is @moneyfriendspod. We also have a cast of thought leaders who come in to co-host with us- journalists, shopping experts, Real estate entrepreneurs, CFP’s  and so on, so you get to ask them questions as well. Right now we are putting together the cast for our third season and it is looking to be amazing. 

Money with Friends has been growing faster than Joe and I ever imagined- there have been a lot of unexpected twists and turns in the show’s short history- and we’ll be talking about that and revealing a lot of behind the scenes secrets-at  Podfest in Orlando in early March- so let us know if you are going to be there- or if you are in the  Orlando area. We are considering doing a meet up and would love to make it happen. You can DM us on our instagram at moneyfriendspod.

I want to finally thank all of you for being part of my grownup journey. I truly appreciate your support and look forward to us all growing together as the financial grownups that we are. 

Episode Links

Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, PodcastsBobbi Rebell KaufmanNew Year, Happy New Year, Financial Grownup, Money with Friends, Podcast
You never forget your first mentors with Ellevate Network CEO Kristy Wallace
You never forget your first mentors with Ellevate Network CEO Kristy Wallace
Kristy Wallace Instagram

Sometimes the best career role models are your first ones. For Ellevate Network CEO Kristy Wallace unfiltered advice from waitresses at a summer job she started as a teen still ring true. Plus her money tip that will instantly save us all cash and extra pounds this holiday season. 

Kristy’s Money Story:

Kristy Wallace:
Yeah, it was really interesting. I grew up in this tiny town in New Jersey, called Sea Isle City, and my sister and I worked at this Italian restaurant Bono's and we were teenagers when we did this. We worked there for years every summer, but all of the other waitresses were older. They were oftentimes already in college or many of them were teachers and this was their summer job when school was out. And they really helped instill in us values and perspective when it came to the work we were doing. Waitressing is so interesting because you get tips, you walk out of the door with cash every night and you can easily, especially if you're a young teenager want to go spend that money. But we saw from the teachers how much they saved that money. They worked really hard to get the tips. To keep track of that money and then saved it because that was what was helping to pay their bills and helping them during the school year.

Bobbi Rebell:
Were you tempted when you first started waitressing to just go out and spend the money?

Kristy Wallace:
Of course, of course. And especially I think when new have new driving cars. And so we wanted to go to the mall and buy things and just always going to Wawa, which was this convenience store there and buying drinks and sandwiches. I mean, it's so easy to just throw money away. And the advice that these other waitresses gave us around saving that money and using it more meaningfully. It really stood out. It stood out to me and it continues to stand out to me today because I think oftentimes it's, particularly now with credit cards and you just put your card down and buy, buy, buy and then suddenly you get the bill and it's wide eyes, sticker shock.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did the conversations start? I mean you guys were the new kids there, did they just see what was going on that you were spending your money? What happened?

Kristy Wallace:
I think the conversation started earlier in the season when things were a little bit slower and they would be talking about, how much money did you make last night or tonight, things are a bit slow. Here's how much I'm hoping to make this summer. This is why it's important to make X amount of dollars a summer and how it helps with rent or helps pay my bills during these months and into the winter. So they were just with each other very honest and transparent about their expectations for how much money they wanted to make or needed to make, how they were going to use it and spend it. And we're very inclusive of my sister and I in those conversations. So clearly we didn't, we were still living at home, we were younger, we didn't have that perspective. And we I'm sure would say in this kind of some flippant comments like, Oh, we just go out and buy a bunch of stuff.

Kristy Wallace:
That's great. We have cash. And so they definitely sat us down and said, "Listen, waitressing is a great job but you end up with a lot of cash and it can be easy to not keep track of how much you're making and to put it in the bank and to manage it wisely. And you know, just for now, and especially when you're going to college in a few years and you're older, it's really important that you understand how you spend your money and you spend it wisely." A few years later when I was going to college and using the money I made in the summer to pay for my bills and expenses once I was in school, I came out of the gate just, with all the insights I needed to be successful in that budgeting and in that planning.

 
“Take the extra shifts.. Put in 110%. Understand how your work relates to the money you are making.”
 

Kristy’s Money Lesson:

Kristy Wallace:
Be mindful of how you spend your money. You really want to understand ways you can save how you spend the money, but then also the impact you personally can have on driving that income, right? And when I was waitressing, something that I learned from the other waitresses was tips are relational to service. So if you have good service and you work hard to be the best at your job, then you get some money or take the extra shifts. There were a number of summers, particularly once I was in college then I didn't take a single day off the entire summer. I worked every day and I loved it because that meant I was making money and I had my little book where I was keeping track of how much I was making and how much I wanted to make.

Kristy Wallace:
So the lesson is just put in 110%, understand how your work relates to the money that you're making, particularly as you get into the workforce into a corporate environment. Really looking at the work that you do, how that ties to the business and the business success, and using that as a motivator for you to do great work, but then also make that extra money and ask for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Speaking of extra money, you have extra money because of the everyday money tip that you're going to share. Tell us your everyday money tip.

 
“Do great work but also make that extra money. Ask for it. ”
 

Kristy’s Money Tip:

Kristy Wallace:
I have three kids at home. They are little kids and every month or week the grocery bills were astronomical. And at the same time I was finding that I was spending a lot of cash every week and I couldn't quite understand why. So I spent a lot of time, I looked at all my budgets, my numbers, and where I was spending money and how I was spending it. I love Excel spreadsheets, so I categorized everything. And realized it was spending not just a lot of money at the grocery store, but a lot of money eating out just during the week. Getting coffee, grabbing breakfast, lunch could easily add up to $20, $30 a day. And when you think about that over five days a week, plus the grocery bills, it really adds up. So I stopped doing that. I stopped eating out. I would bring my breakfast and lunch. My husband and I would make these little egg muffins.

Kristy Wallace:
You make eggs in a muffin tin, so they're easy to just grab and go and make coffee at home. A pound of coffee is $12 versus a $4 cup of coffee when you're out. I love making soups and stews. They're relatively inexpensive to make and they freeze and they last a long time, so I make a big pot every weekend of something and just found it to be not only easy but financially healthy. And healthy for me in terms of the food I was eating.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and I think the everyday money tip there is actually look at the numbers because this is not something new. It's not something that we haven't all thought of. We all know that we shouldn't be spending so much money out, but it takes a lot to actually sit down and say, "Wait, look at what I'm actually spending," to actually add up the receipts.

Bobbi Rebell:
Especially when your grocery bill was high as well, so you might've thought, well I don't want to spend more money on groceries and if you eat at home in theory you'd be spending more on groceries so it's all going to work out. Not so much. I think you have a great example and making things like soups and stews in batches. I think that's a key thing that you have it ready in advance. It's something that I need to work on more is to actually plan in advance what you're going to be bringing with you when you go out so you're not left scrounging for coffee because you didn't have the coffee machine set the night before. And also maybe have a coffee cup that's portable that you can bring with you because you don't have something to bring in the coffee with you and it's time to go. You're kind of stuck and you're going to buy that coffee on the run.

Kristy Wallace:
Plan ahead, be creative. There's lots of great sites and recipes out there.

Bobbi Rebell:
What's your favorite site?

Kristy Wallace:
I like all recipes actually because it's crowdsourced and so there's kind of some fun things and the comments are really interesting. Food 52 is always great. There's some great bloggers out there. We will sometimes try to eat Paleo or maybe Whole 30, so some really great sites out there with some good modifications to recipes that are really healthy and delicious.

 
“Plan ahead. Be creative. There’s lot of great sites and recipes out there.”
 

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

Let's talk about work ethic and the fact that while it's nice to enjoy your work, we all should. It is also about the money. In fact, if we're being honest, there is nothing wrong with admitting you are showing up because they are paying you money. I love that we're paying attention more these days to things like self-care and "work life" balance and it's about time that matters, but let's not forget Kristy's advice. Take the extra shifts because work is about making money. Not saying we can't all benefit from a little yoga. All that stuff matters too, but paying bills is also a form of wellness. Think of all the reduced stress by having extra cash in the bank. Don't lose sight of that.

Financial grownup tip number two:

Christie talks a lot about meal planning.With the holidays coming up maybe also do some shopping planning. We're just a smidge ahead of black Friday and there's nothing wrong with shopping, but if you plan out ahead of time what you're going to buy, those plans will go a long way to keeping you from buying something not on your list because it's on sale. That's not a good reason. I've fallen into that trap. Trust me, and also don't forget if you do fall into that trap and buy something and you regret it. As I've said before, don't be afraid to return it. You usually can. Problem solved.

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Advice, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Role Models, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanKristy Wallace, Ellevate Network
Financial Grownup Guide: 3 strategies to spend money like a Financial Grownup with Modern Frugality's Jen Smith
Financial Grownup Guide: 3 strategies to spend money like a Financial Grownup with Modern Frugality's Jen Smith
FGG Jen Smith Instagram

Just in time for the holidays, Jen Smith, co-host of the Frugal Friends podcast and the author of the new book "Pay Off Your Debt For Good" joins us with her spending strategies so we can all shop like Financial Grownups.

3 strategies to spend money like a Financial Grownup

  1. Focus on your habits

  2. Figure out what you value

  3. Let go of guilt and shame

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Advice, Authors, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Role Models, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanJen Smith, Modern Frugality, The Frugal Friends Podcast, Money, Personal Finance, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guide
When money is a life or death situation. A very candid interview and revelation with Whitney Hanson of the Money Nerds podcast. 
When money is a life or death situation. A very candid interview and revelation with Whitney Hanson of the Money Nerds podcast. 
Whitney Hansen Instagram

Money coach Whitney Hansen, who hosts the Money Nerds podcast, reveals how the pain of poverty and family instability almost led her to a tragic decision as a teenager. We also discuss how the challenges of true financial struggle can impact a family and inform priorities as an adult. 

Whitney’s Money Story:

Whitney Hansen:
I still get choked up about this too, even to this day. But it was a really tough time in my life because my parents were going through this divorce and they were married for a long time, six kids, so they had a really great life together. But my dad started a business and that business led to unhealthy habits. So he had really, I guess some issues with boundaries. It was a 365, 24/7 business. And so he turned to-

Bobbi Rebell:
What was the business?

Whitney Hansen:
Pallet distributing.

Bobbi Rebell:
What's that?

Whitney Hansen:
Pallets, you always see him on Pinterest when people make like coffee tables and furniture and stuff from them, but it's what carries goods across the country in semi-trucks. So it's the wooden like crates almost. That's what his business was, was fixing those up and selling them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. And so had he had that business before your parents got divorced or was it a new thing, so that was another change?

Whitney Hansen:
So it was before they officially got divorced. He started the business probably about 10 years before they officially divorced. And so it was just a really consuming business. He was terrible at delegating, could not find the right type of help. So instead of trusting people, he put all of that pressure on himself. And that led to having to take pallet calls at like two in the morning sometimes. It was just a nightmare. It really was.

Bobbi Rebell:
So then something happened with a mattress?

Whitney Hansen:
Yeah, so with the mattress, after they divorced, my mom moved up to Boise and truly she left that relationship for her life. The abuse was getting so bad and it was just a terrible situation. And so she moved up to Boise making $7.25 an hour at a hobby and craft store and trying to support six kids in this little two bedroom apartment. And we were so broke, Bobbi, like we were broke. We didn't have any money at all, so we were sleeping on the floor.

Whitney Hansen:
My mom and I, one day we were walking and we found a mattress in the garbage can. So we went home, we grabbed her car, threw this on the top of the car. It's really that ridiculous. We both like had our hands out the window holding the mattress down and we took it home. But we were so freaking excited because for our family, that meant we didn't have to sleep on the floor. And it was such a sad moment, but such a powerful one. I was 16 and I will never forget that. It taught me my first personal finance lesson.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about that.

Whitney Hansen:
Well, I started to really reflect on that and what I learned is that there's really a difference between a want and a need. A lot of times we say that we need something. Oh I need to get this new shirt, I need to get this new mattress, I need to get whatever it is.

Whitney Hansen:
But there's a huge difference between what we truly want and what we truly need. So I always carried that with me throughout my entire adulthood and my being a grownup. I mean that's something that I've always looked at, is this truly a want, Whitney, or is this a need? Of course it's like giving yourself permission to buy what you want on occasion, but always putting that in that perspective.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about that time of your life. I mean, how did you survive? How did you get other things? Were you able to get it through people that were helpful to you? You were you working as a 16 year old?

Whitney Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, so that's the sad thing. When you come from a really poor, poverty type situation, the families all working together to support everybody. So I had my own job. I had a job when I was actually 14 is when I officially started working. But I bought the family car when I was 16. My mom took out a loan, I made the payment, and I paid for the car insurance. That's just the way we did it.

Whitney Hansen:
We had a ton of help. Our church was super great. They were really helpful from that perspective as well. But I didn't deal with it well. I've actually never shared this publicly, but when I was 16 I was hospitalized for suicide.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness.

Whitney Hansen:
Yeah, it was a terrible time. It really was not great. But what I started learning from all of this stuff was that when you have control over your money, you have options, and that's what I decided when I was 16, I was never going to be stuck in a really crappy situation because of money. I knew that was something I always wanted to have control over.

Bobbi Rebell:
What kind of conversations were you having with your mom? Because at 16 you're not that young. You know what's up.

Whitney Hansen:
Yeah, yeah. No, I definitely did know what was up. One of the biggest conversations that she shared with me was the importance of education. That was the one thing she had regretted her entire life. Her family did pretty well. Her parents died when she was really young. They did well enough that they left her some money for college, but she blew through it all with my dad. They just were very financially irresponsible. So that was one of the big conversations was Whitney, you need to get an education. You need to make sure you can take care of yourself no matter what. So that was always the focus of the conversation when I was a kid.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where were you in the sibling order? What were your other siblings doing at this time in your life?

Whitney Hansen:
Second oldest. My oldest sister, she had quite a rough childhood herself, of course. She ended up moving out of the house officially when she was 16. She moved in with her boyfriend at that time. She has four kids now, so she's doing super great. But she was running her own family. She got pregnant when she was 17 in high school.

 
“When you have control over your money you have options. ”
 

Whitney’s Money Lesson:

Whitney Hansen:
I think the biggest lesson is how much control you have when you have money. When you have that money instead of just immediately blowing it on stuff that we don't really need, if you start to prioritize your own financial responsibility, and as a woman especially, you have to be able to take care of yourself in some capacity.

Whitney Hansen:
Now that's not saying don't be a stay at home mom if that's your dream, do it. But make sure that you have some skills that you can fall back on. I think that's one of the biggest lessons I can impart for people is just make sure you can take care of yourself, whether it's divorce or death or disease, we don't know what's going to happen in life with our partners, so you have to be able to really financially take care of yourself and be a grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so impactful what you're saying and really hits home with so many people because we don't know it. It may be something like a divorce, but also sometimes people become injured. Your partner may lose their job. There can be a lot of unintended things that happen and things that you can't possibly plan for, but you have to always be able to have an income stream, even if you take it up and down at different points in your life. Having that ability and the education to do that is really important.

“Make sure you can take care of yourself..we don’t know what is going in life with our partners so you have to really be able to take care of yourself financially and really be a grownup.”

Whitney’s Money Tip:

Whitney Hansen:
Oh, I love this. This is such a nerdy one, but it works wonders. My favorite tip in the world is for any person that's trying to better their financial life and doesn't quite know where their money's going, to print off your past 30 days of your bank statement and or your credit card statement anymore, we have Venmo as well, that all counts. Print those off, have those sitting in front of you and then assign three different categories that you tend to overspend on. So for me it's eating out, it's coffee, and it's Amazon. Amazon's the worst for me. So I will print off those statements, I'll write those at the top, and I will literally go line by line and highlight each of the different transactions as a specific color to make sure that I am looking at every single transaction.

Whitney Hansen:
It works like crazy because you have to highlight those transactions and you have to remember I'm the one that swiped my card this many times. This is on me. I think it's so much more personal than just like a roll up thing. I love apps and software. I think they're amazing, but when it's just a roll up number, it's not the same as when you actually have to physically highlight those things. It really does trigger a lot of changes in your financial life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us an example of something, especially when you first started doing this, that you noticed that you were surprised by.

Whitney Hansen:
For me, I've always been pretty frugal because of my background, but what I can tell you is I did this in a group with a bunch of college students, actually. We were doing this exercise and one guy kind of looked up and he had this deer in the headlights look. He was all white, and I'm not a nurse, but I'm like "Dude, are you all right? Do you need to get out of here? What's going on?" And he's like "Well, I just finally realized how much I spent on eating out." I'm like "Okay, cool. Well, how much should you spend?"

Whitney Hansen:
"I spent $400."

Whitney Hansen:
Now I think you and I get that that's not necessarily good or bad, it's all a proportion of your income. But he told me his income was $800 per month.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh no.

Whitney Hansen:
I was like "Well, homie, I think 50% going directly towards eating out is probably not great." But he had no idea because he was just mindlessly spending and not even paying attention. I think it's really normal.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, a lot of us don't know. What about for you personally, what have you noticed?

Whitney Hansen:
For what I've noticed, this is really interesting, whenever I feel insecure or not so great about myself or I'm like dealing with some self esteem issues or whatever it might be, I'm not feeling as confident, I tend to spend more money on clothes and things that I don't need. I see this in my spending. If I'm having a crap week where I'm just not feeling great about myself, I don't feel like I'm cute enough. I don't feel like I'm skinny enough, whatever the heck it might be, I see that in my spending. So for me, I have to really pay attention to that and just monitor my spending to make sure if I do have a bad week, I'm not actually just blowing money because I'm not feeling super great about myself.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and what's good about that is with things like clothing, everybody, you can return it.

Whitney Hansen:
Yes, you can.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you haven't taken the tags off or anything.

Whitney Hansen:
That's right.

Bobbi Rebell:
So don't wear it. So versus like going out and eating, like the gentleman you were talking about, that can be at least corrected, right?

Whitney Hansen:
Absolutely. I think that awareness is key. So when you do this exercise, you're going to get that awareness. Then you can start to say, am I okay with these charges? Or if you want to fix it, you can. I think that's the beautiful thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. Let's talk more about The Money Nerds Podcast, because this is one of my go to's. I love it that it's three days a week and you do different things. So you do Mondays, you talk about just kind of what you like. Then another day you have your sort of normal format where you do interviews, and then Fridays are always these five tips that are things you can really do in your life right away.

 
“Whenever I feel insecure.. I tend to spend more money on clothes and things I don’t need.”
 

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

If your financial problems are weighing on you mentally, you must get help. Please find the right professional. You are not alone. We've all been there and there are many organizations out there that can work with your budget, even if that budget is zero. Many employers also offer mental health counseling that is often a free benefits.

Financial grownup tip number two:

We talk a lot about apps and online resources for your finances on this show, and yes, there are a lot of resources also for mental health online. I'm going to give you links to some articles in the show notes that list options, but here are some that stand out that are pretty popular. One is Talkspace. Another one is BetterHelp, and then 7 Cups of Tea, which is more of a peer to peer resource where someone, maybe like you, can just be someone to listen to you and hear what's going on in your life. I want to caution you guys. I have no affiliation with any of these and I have not vetted them directly myself, but they are places to start and do your own homework.

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Business, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Millennial Superstars, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Role Models, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanWhitney Hansen, Money Nerd, Money Nerds, The Money Nerds Podcast
How to recover when your credit score is unfairly poisoned with Popcorn Finance's Chris Browning (Encore)
How to recover when your credit score is unfairly poisoned with Popcorn Finance's Chris Browning (Encore)
Chris Browning Instagram

Chris Browning, host of the Popcorn Finance podcast got a clean bill of health for his wife after a hospital stay a few years ago. But despite having been patients there before, a billing mixup left his credit score needing intensive care. 

Chris’ Money Story:

Chris Browning:
Yes so you know, unfortunately my wife, she had to go in for surgery and which is never a good thing. So we went to the hospital, everything got taken care of. She's all well now. We figured we'd just get a bill in the mail, that's how most medical bills come, they just send you something in the mail.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did they do any paperwork while you were at the hospital? Did you give them insurance information? What actually transpired at the hospital? Because you do usually fill out some stuff.

Chris Browning:
Yeah, so leading up, you sit in the finance office and they have you sign a couple of waivers and disclosures. And they say. "Alright, let's see your insurance". They took a copy and they said, "Okay we'll bill you". And that's literally all they told me. No further information other than that.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the hospital was in Network? Do you remember?

Chris Browning:
Yeah, it was an in Network hospital.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you were trying to be in Network, okay.

Chris Browning:
Yes, so we did everything we thought we were supposed to do and we visited the hospital before and the billing seemed to work fine, so you know we didn't even think twice about it. It felt normal.

Bobbi Rebell:
This might be important later on. You were in the system having visited the hospital before?

Chris Browning:
Yeah, it was a local hospital.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Chris Browning:
So we just thought, we'll get a bill in the mail like we have in the past. We waited around, nothing came after a couple of months and to be honest, I kind of just forgot about it, because it had been so long and it just never showed up.

Bobbi Rebell:
I would totally forget about it.

Chris Browning:
Yeah, after two months, you assume you would receive it. After that, life just goes on. You do other things. You live life. And so, I have this habit of checking my credit score, because one of my credit cards on their app, they allow you to check your credit score for free, and they'll update it like every seven days. And so I was just taking a look at it, and I noticed my credit score had dropped like a crazy amount. It had dropped about 150 points. That was very alarming, to say the least. And so I decided to take a look in my credit report. And I went to freecreditreport.com. I saw this like delinquency mark and I was like, that's strange. I remember paying all my bills.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Chris Browning:
And when I looked into it, it just gave me just a random number. It didn't really give me a lot of details.

Bobbi Rebell:
Like a phone number?

Chris Browning:
Yeah, it was a random phone number from a ... it was an area code I'd never seen before. And so I gave the phone number a call, and then they gave me the details. They said this is from the hospital that we had visited, and they say you didn't pay your bill and it's been turned over to a collection agency. And this was the collection agency that I was speaking with.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Chris Browning:
I was just shocked and I was like, well how did this happen? And they have limited information.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sure.

Chris Browning:
And all they'd allow me to do at the time was they said, "Would you like to set up a payment plan?". And I was like, well yeah I want to get this cleared up. But I said, "Let me call the hospital first".

Bobbi Rebell:
Well right, and how do you even know they're legit. I mean they're saying they have the debt, but what exactly happened? Because you'd never heard from the hospital.

Chris Browning:
Exactly, so I was a little hesitant. I don't want to give you money just yet. So I called the hospital and got hold of billing department and I asked them. I said, "I see this delinquency on my credit report. They're saying that our bill was into collections, but we never received a bill in the mail". They said, "Well yeah, we mailed it out to you". And I said, "Well we haven't got anything for months". So they checked their system and they said, "Well here's the address we have for you", and it was the wrong address. They had transposed the numbers around, and who knows where the bill actually went.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is crazy because two things. First of all, you had been to this hospital before, so presumably you were in the system correctly at some point because you had paid previous bills. And number two, any company, any person, we should all do it, but certainly a company, a hospital, should have a return address. So if they were going to the wrong address, you would think that they would return the mail, and the hospital would receive it back.

Chris Browning:
Exactly. You think they'd be some type of notification for them to know that whatever they mailed out just came back.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they never called you.

Chris Browning:
They never called.

Bobbi Rebell:
But presumably your phone number is on there.

Chris Browning:
Exactly, you'd think if they hadn't been paid all this time, they'd have at least called to follow up. But no. I think maybe it's just the sheer volume they deal with. They don't even try, they just immediately send it to collections after the time period had passed.

Bobbi Rebell:
So then what did you do?

Chris Browning:
So after I verified with them what collection agency they actually sent the bill to, and it matched the information they I had received from the number I had called, I called the collection agency back, because at that point, the hospital said there's nothing we can do. It's been sold to collections, you know it's out of our hands. I called the number back, I spoke with them. I said, "Yes, we want to take care of this". And I said, "If we pay this off, is there a way that this could be removed from my credit report, because it's a huge mark on my credit?".

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's also not your fault.

Chris Browning:
Exactly. Because I explained to them, I said we just never received the bill. I didn't know what type of pushback I was going to get. If they were going to say no. But surprisingly they said, Yes. If you set up, if you agree to a payment plan now, they gave me the total amount. It matched what the hospital said it should be. They said, if you pay this off, we will contact the credit bureaus and have the delinquency removed, because you've taken care of this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Of course. That's the least they can do. Did the hospital take any ownership of the fact that they had not followed up?

Chris Browning:
Not at all.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's disappointing.

Chris Browning:
They basically just said, sorry, nothing we can do. It's out of our hands and it was on me to take care of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's foolish on their part because generally, and I assume this was the case when you send something to a collection agency, they're only getting a fraction of what the bill was. So they lost out for not bothering and not having the right systems in place to check with you. Presumably the doctor could follow up with you and your wife, so they had contact information that was correct in some part of the system.

Chris Browning:
You'd think that if they knew they're going to lose money, that it'd be in their best interest to do a little more follow-ups, spend a little more time, but no, they just I guess, just dump it off.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, they lost money too. So that maybe there isn't the right stakeholder at the hospital that took ownership of the fact that that bill was not being paid for that reason.

Chris Browning:
Exactly.

Chris’ Money Lesson:

Chris Browning:
I would say first of all, make sure that you follow up on all your medical bills. Even if you think that the office is going to take care of it the way they should, you just never know. You could end up in the situation like this. So I do acknowledge that I could have called and followed up after a month of not hearing anything back.

Bobbi Rebell:
But maybe the insurance you were in Network, so if I was doing something in Network, I would have assumed that if I didn't get a bill, the insurance covered it.

Chris Browning:
I made that assumption too, but I think after this now, I'm going to be on the safe side.

Bobbi Rebell:
Of course.

Chris Browning:
I'm going to give them a call just to follow up if it's been like an unusually long amount of time since I haven't got any communication from them. Just to eliminate any issues or this ever happening again.

Chris Browning:
And the second thing I would say, check your credit score. I was really fortunate that that was a habit that I had picked up. You know we had been paying off some debts so I was in the habit of looking at my credit score to see how it was changing. That's the only reason I knew that there was any type of issue is because I saw my credit score had dropped drastically, and that triggered me to look at my credit report, and that's where I found the error, and I was able to finally take care of it.

Chris’ Money Tip:

Chris Browning:
So my money tip would be check with your credit card company, if you do have a credit card. Or even some banks. A lot of them offer access to your credit score and some even your credit report directly through their website or their mobile app. And so it's really simple. It's free a lot of the time and it's just a really convenient tool to have with you, and whether you're looking for errors or you just want to kind of track your progress. I think it's a really great incentive that these banks are offering to let you stay on top of your credit and your finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And specifically, how often do you do that?

Chris Browning:
I've slowed down. I was a little obsessive. I was checking like every day at one point. Now I'm on a once per month basis. I'll log in, just kind of look and see how things are going, just I want to keep the practice up. I don't want to get too comfortable and let too much time pass, because who knows when an error could pop up.

Bobbi Rebell:
So when people check their credit score, what are the things that they should be looking for that are good and that are bad?

Chris Browning:
So I would say for sure, any type of drastic change. So if you've made this a habit and you're checking on a regular frequency, your credit score's not going to swing wildly. You know it's normal for it to swing 10, 20 points here and there. But if you see any type of drastic change, that would for sure be a trigger point to let you know you need to look into this a little bit more. Whether it's going to some place like freecreditreport.com which is run by Experian and you're getting a copy of your credit report just to see what's going on. Wild changes in any area of your finances is normally a sign of something that's not normal and that's maybe something you should look into a little bit more.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip Number One:

The only thing Chris did wrong here, he did not follow up in finding out what he owed the hospital. So the tip is to try to stay on top of your medical bills, especially the ones that you know are probably coming. Even if you're hoping they're not. That said, the visit was in Network, so Chris in all fairness could have believed there wasn't much to do except for a co-pay that he probably had already paid at the hospital. But at the end of the day, he himself says he should have checked in and been more on top of it. Mixed feelings about that though.

Financial Grownup Tip Number Two:

Don't assume that corporations or institutions such as hospitals are competent in their billing. Question everything. This especially goes sadly for end of life situations where the family is distracted and just wants to move on. Assuming you do get bills, try hard as it may be to go through them. I know of some instances where the bills were so out of control, literally offensive, that people have gone to the financing offices of the hospital and just negotiated them down on the grounds that no one could possibly go through every charge for an overpriced Bandaid or medication or whatever, and prove that it actually happened, was given and was priced correctly. Fairly, and fairly is pretty broad when it comes to our healthcare system. Hold them accountable. Just because they throw a list of a thousand teeny charges on a bill, doesn't mean you can't question it.

Episode Links

Follow Chris Browning and Popcorn Finance!

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Advice, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Health + Fitness, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanChris Browning, Popcorn Finance, medical bills, hospital, collection agency, Podcast, Personal Finance, Advice, Money
Conscious uncoupling from what you thought was your forever job with Working Mother’s Mentor’s Julie Finn
Conscious uncoupling from what you thought was your forever job with Working Mother’s Mentor’s Julie Finn
Julie Finn Instagram - White Border.png

Consultant Julie Finn loved her her consumer products strategy career and says  her employer, Deloitte, did everything possible to accommodate her lifestyle needs as a mom. So no one was more surprised  than she was when she opted for an early exit strategy. 

In Julie’s money story you will learn:

-How Julie left two major jobs but each one was a completely different exit strategy

-Julie’s strategy of applying the same financial criteria to job choices as wel do to other major financial choices like buying a home.

-How Julie’s employer, Deloitte, was family friendly and did what they could to accommodate her needs. 

-Why the decision to leave was not an obvious one

-The advice she received from mentors that led her to her life changing decision

In Julie’s money lesson you will learn:

-As well-intentioned as an employer may be- the job may not be a fit forever

-Age should not hold you back from leaving a job that is no longer the right fit for your goals and needs

-The importance of structure and planning in making a major career shift- and how to get it

In Julie’s everyday money tip you will learn:

-The importance of continuing to learn even as you progress through your career

-The value of online courses as well as coaching

-How to save money on skill building education

-Not to try to go it alone- reach and and get the right help

-How to make decisions about priorities when it comes to investing in further career education

Bobbi and Julie also talk about:

-The Working Mothers Mentor Podcast

-Julie’s career coaching for executive women

-How side hustles can help in the decision making process

-How listeners can support working moms, especially who don’t know where to get the help they need

In My Take you will learn:

-The importance of a gracious exit from a company

-Why it is important strategically to stay in touch and on good terms with co-workers and supervisors even after you leave the job

-Ways to get discounts on online education courses

Episode Links

Learn more about Julie Finn and The Working Mother’s Mentor:

Theworkingmothersmentor

 

Follow Julie!

Twitter @mothersmentor

Instagram @theworkingmothersmentor

Facebook The Working Mothers Mentor + join her community!

 

 

IRS info on education deductions

https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc513

 

This is a quick way to determine if you can get an education credit

https://www.irs.gov/help/ita/am-i-eligible-to-claim-an-education-credit

 

Udemy https://www.udemy.com/

Coursera https://www.coursera.org/

Teachable www.teachable.com

Transcription

Julie Finn:
You know when I took a job, in my head it was my forever job. It was, "I'm going to retire from this company." Because I had the structure, because I had the support, I had a very clear plan and I had very clear strategy in place and that made all the difference.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grown Up. With me, financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. You know what? Being a grown up is really hard especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey Financial Grownup friends. I remember my first day at my first post college job as what was called a news associate at CNBC and thinking, and this is true, "This is literally the best job on the planet. I can't believe I got the job. There's money associated. It comes every two weeks. I would literally be happy doing this job forever." I wanted it to be my forever job. I hope you guys have all had that feeling, the excitement and optimism of working somewhere you hope you can stay forever.

Bobbi Rebell:
That was Julie Finn at Deloit. She climbed her way up in the consumer product strategy field and had finally made it. They were super family friendly there. Whatever she needed, they were going to work with her to make it happen. But then, something changed. We'll get to that in a sec.

Bobbi Rebell:
But just quickly, welcome to our new listeners. So excited the show continues to be discovered and thank you to all of you regulars for sharing it. Please keep telling your friends. Word of mouth is everything. It is the best way for people to find out about our program. It matters a lot. We keep it short, as you guys know, around 15 minutes, but a lot of our listeners like to stack a few together. Think of it like flex time for podcasts.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get to Julie. She is a business coach and host of the Working Mother's Mentor Podcast, but it was not long ago that she was in what she thought was her forever job, until we now know, it wasn't. The story gets really interesting. Here is Julie Finn.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Julie Finn. You're a Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Julie Finn:
Bobbi, thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I'm excited to learn so much from you because you are a business coach and you host the Working Mother Mentors Podcast, which is very popular. I hear you have some great guests on there.

Julie Finn:
Like you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You've actually turned a lot of your life experience into things that you are teaching so many others so that's great. Congratulations on all your success.

Julie Finn:
Thank you. I really appreciate it. It's been quite a journey. It's so fulfilling to be able to do work that you love and to know that you're serving others and empowering and inspiring others so it's been fantastic.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you brought a money story with you that has to do with something that can be very delicate and really has to be handled the right way in order to have the right financial future, financial exit, I should say and that is my not so sophisticated way of saying that you're going to talk about exit strategies and the different ways that you've handled them at different points in your career. Go for it.

Julie Finn:
Yes. That's exactly right and that's funny because when you sit down and think about it, career choices, the choices to take a job or to leave a job, are really some of the most important financial decisions that we make, but we often don't frame them that way. We frame buying a house or making an investment as a financial decision, but oftentimes when we think about career, we don't think about it that way. Particularly for those of us who have made decisions around leaving jobs later in our careers. I have two big leaps. One in my 30s and one in my 40s and those are massive decisions. When I look back over those choices that I've made, it's interesting to see how I've matured and I approached it very differently when I was in my 40s than I did when I was in my 30s.

Bobbi Rebell:
So let's get specific. Tell us what happened.

Julie Finn:
So when I was in my 30s, when I was making the decision to leave a job, it was really based on the fact that I'd just had my first child. I wanted to go part-time. I wasn't able to do that. I felt backed into a corner. It wasn't a positive, happy, leave. It wasn't a leave that was planned in advance. It wasn't strategized. It was more of a leap versus fast forward about ten years. I really worked hard with the company, and it was Deloit and they were super family friendly. They tried very hard to accommodate what I needed at that stage.

Julie Finn:
What I found is that dropping to part-time, which is what my intermediate solution was, wasn't the silver bullet that I envisioned it to be. I think for a lot of working moms, we think, "Wouldn't it be great if we could have a big corporate job with full benefits and work part-time and work from home?" That for me was the holy grail. It's what I had written down on a piece of paper that's what I wanted. That's what Deloit provided for me.

Julie Finn:
The decision to leave was not an obviously one. It was a really difficult one because I had a "good job". I knew that if I was going to make a leap from a job like that, it had to be based on something really compelling pulling me, and it had to be based on a really logical strategy.

Julie Finn:
What I did this time in making that decision, is I got support. I worked with coaches. I took online courses. I went to conferences. I made sure that I surrounded myself with others who made similar decisions. I sought out support from my mentors. It made the decision a positive one and it made the transition a successful one.

Julie Finn:
I found that even though I loved my company and I had a great time, I wasn't passionate about the work and I knew there was other work I wanted to be doing. Historically, I did consumer product strategy which is great training and I got to work with a lot of great clients and great people, but what I'm passionate about is inspiring and supporting women, particularly professional women in living the big life that they are here on earth to live, to overcome the fears and the doubts, to stand in their power.

Julie Finn:
I got frustrated working with so many really smart women who would doubt themselves and who often were making trade offs when children came into the mix and they didn't really know how to handle it. That's part of the reason why I started the Working Mothers Mentor, first as the podcast, to give people inspiring stories behind the scenes of really successful people to show you not only how they juggle everything but how they made career decisions, how they built their business, and to show you the messiness, not just the shiny, glossy stuff that you often see. Then also providing actual support through programs and coaching.

Julie Finn:
So the transition from Deloit has been a really positive one.

Bobbi Rebell:
And part of the takeaway of that is as good willed and as well intentioned as the company may be, that does not mean it is your forever job.

Julie Finn:
That's exactly right and that's part of the reason why it was such a hard decision because I was already over 40. When I took a job, in my head it was my forever job. It was, "I'm going to retire from this company." So making that decision to leap into entrepreneurship in my mid 40s, for a lot of people, it's a very scary time to make any kind of massive career change.

Julie Finn:
For me, part of my tip for people, is make sure if you're making any kind of pivot or massive change that you don't try to do it unsupported and you don't try to do it unguided.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what is the lesson for our listeners from your story of leaving Deloit for your own entrepreneurial adventure?

Julie Finn:
The real lesson is don't make any big leap of any big decision unsupported and unguided. I think when I look back over the different decisions I've made in my career, early in my career I often felt like I was winging it whereas with this leap, because I had the structure, because I had the support, I had a very clear plan and I had very clear strategy in place and that made all the difference.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's talk about your every day money tip because that also goes along this theme but let's get very specific. What is it? What could people do?

Julie Finn:
I think it's very important for us all, all professionals whatever level you are, to continue to invest in yourself in terms of your education and your access to expertise. What I mean by that is in addition to reading books and having mentors, think about online courses, think about investing in a coach, think about going to conferences. I think for a lot of us, particularly when the busyness of family life and trying to keep our career on track, when that comes in development seems to disappear. We might do something in our company. They'll have professional development but I'm talking about you personally, things that are important for you.

Julie Finn:
For me, like I said, part of what made the decision easier is the fact that I invested. I took online courses to improve the skills where I needed. I invested in coaches to give me the confidence where I needed it, to give me the push where I needed it, to give me the guidance where I needed. The important lesson here is don't try to go it alone. Make sure that you continue to invest in yourself and that way when you are making these big decisions you're completely educated around them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now are the ways that people who maybe tight on money can better afford these things because it can get expensive and where is the balance there? Because you're struggling to pay your bills, you want to build up things like and emergency fund so you maybe can take the leap to be an entrepreneur. How do you know how much is the right amount to spend in time and money.

Julie Finn:
That's a really great question. In terms of time, I think for a lot of us, we would say we don't have enough time. So it is about making the decision to prioritize. I think when you take a step back and look, you can certainly find maybe it's two hours a week, maybe it's for a season, maybe it's a weekend conference. It's about the prioritization, making the time.

Julie Finn:
In terms of money, we should all start to work on having a development part of our budget. Again, if you take a look at your budget and if you look at things that maybe you're spending money on, getting your nails done, or getting your hair done, or something that feels maybe a little bit less necessarily. If you took some of those resources and invested in attending a conference or working with a coach or if you can't afford a coach one on one, investing in a group coaching program. That's often a way to have access to a very seasoned, experienced coach but without having to pay the fee that you would pay for one on one attention.

Julie Finn:
I think the other thing is there are a lot of great platforms where you can access online platforms that are less expensive like Udemy, Teachable. So you can find courses for as little as $69. Some of the more sophisticated courses obviously can cost you a thousand, two thousand dollars, but you can get started with any budget.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. So tell us more about what's going on with you, because I know you offer some of this.

Julie Finn:
Yeah. We're having a great time over at the Working Mothers Mentors. In addition to the podcast, we have a group coaching program that's launching soon. That's really designed to support women who are considering leaving their corporate jobs in order to start a business either as what a lot of people affectionately call a side hustle or to fully replace their full time income. We also offer group coaching and one on one coaching programs. The idea is really to support working moms who often feel like they're juggling so much and they don't really know where to go for support. That's really our mission.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where were you a few years ago? I needed you so much. I'm so happy that you're here now though doing all this for so many people that will really benefit from it.

Julie Finn:
Thank you so much. That's exactly why I do it. I needed me ten years ago and I needed me again three years ago and I couldn't find me and so I decided to become me. So thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Before I let you go, tell us all the social channels and where people can find you.

Julie Finn:
Our website is theworkingmothersmentor.com and that's a great hub to find out more about our coaching programs, to find out more about the podcast. The podcast also called the Working Mother's Mentor. You can certainly access on any platform where you currently listen to podcasts like your podcast. On social, you can find you on Facebook and Instagram @theworkingmothersmentor. Twitter @mothersmentor and me personally, Julie Finn, on LinkedIn.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're the best, Julie.

Julie Finn:
Thank you, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends. So companies have a long way to go towards keeping more women in the workplace, but Julie's story at least shows real progress at some. No hard feelings, it just didn't work out.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup Tip #1: If and when you leave a company, take a we from Julie and be gracious. As great as Julie's story is, sometimes we don't have the best feelings when we leave a job, and it is really tempting to let them have it, but the truth is, those former coworkers and bosses could well become the best assets you have in your future business ventures.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup Tip #2: Julie mentioned the importance of investing in continuing education throughout your career. You know I'm a big fan of this. Many online courses are actually free and those that are not often go on sale. Sometimes your employer will pay for your classes. Make sure that you know if there are any requirements like getting a certain grade. If your employer does not pay, you can also often deduct education from your taxes if it meets certain criteria.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm going to leave some links in the show notes bobbirebell.com/podcast/JuliFinn. I was also leave links to some popular online course websites like Udemy, which often has sales as I mentioned, classes can be under $10 there, and Coursera which has partnerships with universities including my alma mater, Penn.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thanks to Julie for candidly sharing her amicable breakup. It is one thing to storm out of a job you hate. It's another to just well not be that into it anymore and leave in search of finding your true love in terms of your career.

Bobbi Rebell:
So thank you to Julie for helping us realize sometimes life isn't so clear cut and getting us one step closer to being Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media Production.

Advice, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Role Models, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanJulie Finn, Working Mothers, mentors, mompreneur, entrepreneur, work from home
How to cut your losses and admit (temporary) defeat with extreme athlete and entrepreneur Kyle Maynard
How to cut your losses and admit (temporary) defeat with extreme athlete and entrepreneur Kyle Maynard

Entrepreneur and extreme athlete Kyle Maynard has lived a life of high achievement, so it came a shock, when a planned business venture stumbled, and he had to let 5 employees go and accept the limitations of his vision. 

In Kyle’s money story you will learn:

-How Kyle took a risk on a new venture that did not go as well as projected

-The tough decisions that he had to make to protect his assets

-Kyle's ability to come to terms with his missteps, and decision to cut his losses

-How he chose to pivot and re-think his venture

-The importance of protecting his own financial security while expanding his business

-What Kyle learned from a mentor about "the double bottom line”

-How he integrates his “no excuses” philosophy into his business ventures even when they are not living up to his expectations

In Kyle’s money lesson you will learn

-How to know when to cut your losses

-How to avoid making decisions in fear of what others will think

-Specific ways to evaluate whether or not to put more money into an investment or business ventures

In Kyle's every day money tip you will learn:

-How to prioritize the money you spend on fitness and health

-Whether supplements are worth the money

-How to get in shape when you have a low or no budget

-Why high quality food is better than supplements and shakes etc

-His take on organic foods

-If you need a $10,000 treadmill

-What Kyle was eating  (or not eating!) the day we taped the interview

In My Take you will learn:

kyle maynard PINTEREST (1).png

-The importance of HOW you fail- because at some point we all do

-Why many entrepreneurs, like Kyle, and Perez Hilton do not invest all their own money in their businesses, in order to protect their assets and spread the risk.

-My tip on how to save money and eat healthier when buying fresh fruit

Episode Links

Kyle’s webpage: http://kyle-maynard.com/

Follow Kyle!

Instagram @kylemaynard

Facebook Kyle Maynard

Get a signed copy of Kyle’s book “No Excuses” !

Listen to the Perez Hilton episode where he talks about not risking your own capital that I reference in this episode! 

When should you pay up for organic fruit?

What not to buy organic- Insider

The Truth about organic produce and pesticides- The Washington Post

Transcription

Kyle Maynard:
Just because you've put in a certain amount of money does not justify you continuing to go and put in more in the future for something that's not working so well, and so I did go in and let five of the people go on short notice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebel, author of "How to be a financial grownup". But you know what? Being a grown-up is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a Financial Grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Financial Grownup friends. So losing a job is hard, but being the one to make those decisions and cause those job losses as a business owner is brutal. As you'll hear from the very raw sharing of an experience that is all too common for entrepreneurs, but rarely talked about so candidly, as it is by my guest, Kyle Maynard.

Bobbi Rebell:
I met him a little more than a year ago at a conference in San Francisco, and immediately needed to know more about this incredible man. I can't begin to tell you how much it means to me that I finally was able to get him on the podcast for everyone.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for those of you who don't know about Kyle Maynard. Kyle is an entrepreneur. He's a speaker. He's an author of the bestseller, "No excuses". Kyle is also an award-winning extreme athlete. He was the first man to bear crawl the highest mountain in Africa, Mount Kilimanjaro. Now, why was he bear crawling? Because Kyle was born with a rare condition known as congenital amputation. It left him with arms that end at the elbows, and legs that end at his knees. So naturally in addition to climbing massive mountains, Kyle owns a gym, is a champion wrestler, teaches crossfit, and is a world record setting weightlifter.

Bobbi Rebell:
As you guys know, I try to keep the podcast short, so we're just going to cut off the bio there, but trust me, look him up. His accomplishments are endless. I'm so excited about this interview guys. Here is Kyle Maynard.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Kyle Maynard. You're a Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Kyle Maynard:
Hey, thank you so much Bobbi. Appreciate you having me. I don't know about this whole grownup business, but I'll go with it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, you're definitely a grownup. I've followed your adventures. So we met, we met over a year ago at a conference out in San Francisco where I got to interview you for the conference and then you were off. You've been traveling. I think you went to something like 14 countries since then, and now you've landed long enough to do this interview in San Diego where you are living a nomadic and minimalist lifestyle.

Kyle Maynard:
Yeah, that's pretty accurate. You may have some ex-girlfriends that would disagree on the grownup part, but you know.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh no. We're just doing money. We're just going to talk about money and you're a businessman. Look, you have many accomplishments, and you were a bestselling author at a very young age. You were able to make some money early on, enough to be able to invest in a home. You invested in mutual funds that was up and down. You also founded a very successful gym and that venture has done well.

Bobbi Rebell:
But now for your money story, we're going to talk about what's been going on more recently. And first of all I just want to thank you in advance, because this was not the original story that you were going to share, but you have agreed to share it I believe here for the first time, so candidly. And you had to make some very tough decisions after something, a new venture hadn't gone as well as expected. And I think it's something a lot of people will relate to and get a lot out of this story. So go for it. Kyle.

Kyle Maynard:
So I guess to start with my current career has been, as you know, traveling around giving speeches, corporate events, and you know a variety of other types of events. Like you in sort of the motivations for starting this podcast, very similar motivations. I've been wanting to go and try to find a way to go and build a business and monetize things outside of just the constant travel, and feel like there is a place to be able to go and reach people in the digital world, you know.

Kyle Maynard:
I also do have access to some amazing human beings, and really wanted to be able to harness that and be able to help other people realize more of their potential in their lives and whatever that would mean for them.

Kyle Maynard:
And I made some really aggressive hires very quickly, so I'd hired five near full time people to kind of help build out the vision for what I had set out to do with this new program. And things got pretty dramatically behind schedule and I ultimately realized the amount that was going to go and take to be able to go and get the ship righted if it worked at all, potentially might eat away at the vast majority of the savings that I'd made over the last decade or more.

Kyle Maynard:
And I had to make a very tough decision to be able to analyze the whole idea of the sunk cost fallacy. It's probably one of my favorite financial concepts. But the idea that just because you've put in a certain amount of money does not justify you continuing to go and put in more in the future for something that's not working so well.

Kyle Maynard:
And so I did go and let five of the people go on short notice quickly and ended up, give them a month to figure out what they were going to go and do next, as I felt like that was something that needed to happen. The promises and the excitement that was there and was made, I just wanted to go and do right by them, but at the same time did not want to eat away at the savings that I'd built up entirely for something that wasn't going so great.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's hard. Can you tell us more about what your vision, what kind of venture it was, and what did not happen or did happen that was not aligned with your original vision?

Kyle Maynard:
One of my financial mentors taught me this. He's the vice chairman of AOL, and he said that everything that he goes and gets into, you know, has this double bottom line aspect of purpose and profitability. That theme and that concept is something that I wanted to go and teach people that purpose and profitability. Profitability not just in their business lives, but like in every aspect of their lives.

Kyle Maynard:
And through some of my best friends that are former Navy seals, professional athletes, people that have achieved great things, wanted to be able and go and pull together from their wisdom to be able to create a program to ultimately inspire other people to go and take on these dreams, these visions.

Kyle Maynard:
And it's not dissimilar from, you know, people who have done these types of things before. You know, like the Tony Robbins style events and things like that. We wanted to go and approach it from a different angle, which is still going to happen I know down the road at some point, so I'm not going to go into the details, the specifics of what makes that so different.

Kyle Maynard:
But at the same time holding true to that message, the achievement of that no excuses mentality, which is kind of, that's the core of my messaging is like finding a way. That could be really detrimental when we try to enforce things that are not happening.

Kyle Maynard:
Things were way behind on this project and in order to like kind of pull together and unravel it, like ultimately to realize that by forcing that to happen in the nature of this project, I was going to lose the essence of what it was too, and kind of create something that was just generic that was too similar to what other people had already done too. So it was even still protecting the project at the risk of looking like an idiot. And it's okay.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's a very grownup decision because you're also number one, protecting your financial assets that you've built up over a decade and that's something very real. But Perez Hilton, of of all people said, when you're building a business, don't always risk all your money. It's okay to take other people's money. You have to protect your own money too, and that's okay.

Kyle Maynard:
Totally. Really, I think that what it comes down to is the idea of fear and ego and looking bad and all of those things should not keep us from making the decisions that we know we need to make. So many of us go through life attached to the image of who we think that we are.

Kyle Maynard:
If we both throw in $50,000 into a business and I'm running the business, I come to you and I say, "Hey, we need to go and put in another $25,000 each". If you justify that in your head based off of the logic that you've already put in 50, it's a faulty logic.

Kyle Maynard:
The right way to make that decision would be as if I've made no investment whatsoever in that, like, would I make that $25,000 investment today. And if you answered yes, then do it and if not, then it's time to walk away from it. And ultimately what I had to go and realize is, if I were to go and make that investment for that payroll and kind of the extended runway and all that stuff, like I wouldn't make that investment today. So then ultimately I've got to make a hard choice now.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what is the lesson, the takeaway for our listeners from your experience?

Kyle Maynard:
I would say it's to look at whatever the situation, whether it's a financial thing, but it could be like I said, relationship thing, health thing, whatever. Look at where things are like out of order, and frankly are we clinging to something or some idea? Because you know, we think that we've already invested so much in it, like it's a dumb idea. Or like you continue on down that path, you know, whether it's ... I talk to my sisters about that all the time and like, you know, relationships too, it's this exact same way, you know. It's like you don't date somebody just because you dated them for two years. That's not the right way to go about that decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. But people do, they feel they've invested in the person, the relationship. I should stick in and that is definitely not good to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let me ask you how. So so you are in the fitness business and that's your everyday money tip is how to save money. What to prioritize? What's worth spending money on when you're trying to get in shape? Because you climbed mountains, Kyle, like it's pretty insane what goes on.

Kyle Maynard:
You mentioned this, but I'd owned a gym for a long time too, and actually my first company right out of the gate was a supplement company and learned a tremendous amount about that and just the whole industry. And I think a ton of stuff that we spend money on in health and fitness goes unused and wasted. The biggest thing that you can do I think in the health and fitness journey is to drastically simplify it and spend time actually doing stuff. You know, spend time on, like if you're going to spend money, spend it on getting high quality food, instead of a ton of supplements and shakes and all of that stuff. Spend it on getting real foods, decent quality stuff. If you can eat organic, great. If not, then you can still get high quality food too that's not organic, that maybe it's not going to be as ideal, but like it's going to be pretty good.

Kyle Maynard:
It's going to get you a long ways and you don't need to go in and buy a ton of crazy fitness contraptions like you can make do with simple stuff. Like everyone has access to the gym of the outdoors like and if it's super cold or super hot where you're at, then you have your bedroom, you have a space at some point. You have your body. You have you know so many ways to go and move that don't require expensive $10,000 treadmills.

Kyle Maynard:
Is it an excuse? When it comes down to it, it actually is avoidant of the real issue at hand, which is putting in work and eating high quality food.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. So what are you eating for dinner tonight, Kyle?

Kyle Maynard:
Today, I have yet to eat anything yet. I think I'm going to go on a fasting day, and then thrown in ...

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait a second, guys. Just so you know, we're taping this. It's after noon in San Diego where Kyle is. You haven't eaten till noon. Come on.

Kyle Maynard:
Most days I don't.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're one of those morning faster people.

Kyle Maynard:
Intermittent fasting. Yeah, and also like I'll throw in a periodic like two, three, five day fast every now and then. So ...

Bobbi Rebell:
Cool. That's also not, not the purpose of it.

Kyle Maynard:
Saves money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Save some money I guess. Anyway, so everyone. So Kyle has a bunch of projects going on. but they're top secret. So Kyle's not going to tell us. So I'm just going to have Kyle tell everyone where you can find out about all of his top secret next chapter of his business venture and life adventures. Go for it, Kyle.

Kyle Maynard:
All right. You can hit me up on Instagram is probably the place that I'm a more active, Instagram and Facebook, but Instagram's like pretty much where it's at. Like I've also taken the time to be able to spend the next few months to be able to go at a little slower pace and enjoy and then gear up for some exciting stuff in the fall and the winter.

Bobbi Rebell:
And your handle is Kyle Maynard, is it Kyle Maynard, right?

Kyle Maynard:
It's just KyleMaynard.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Kylemayard.com. Cool. All right, everyone. Check him out. Thank you Kyle.

Kyle Maynard:
Awesome. Thank you Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends. So if there is anyone whose adventures you really need to be following on Instagram, it is Kyle's. This was a serious interview, but he's a really fun guy to watch, so definitely follow him.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, let's get down to my take. Financial Grownup tip number one. Fail, but with grace and gratitude. I did not hear one bit of pity from Kyle, and I know he really put his all into this venture, so thankfully he did not put it in all his money. There was no finger pointing. He did not blame anyone. He kept his head up.

Bobbi Rebell:
This was not the story we had planned to share. Kyle mentioned it casually as we were setting up. We planned to share something else, so it is possible, even likely, that you guys are the first ones hearing this, and that's pretty brave for Kyle because Kyle's a pretty well known guy who is known for winning, and as he says, no excuses.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two. Kyle reminds us that we can get in shape at no cost, and that rather than supplements, we can just eat good quality food. My tip buy less precut fruit to save money. So just this week, I realized my family bought a $9 container of cut up organic cantaloupe, which by the way had already gone bad that day so it wasn't even fresh and I had to return it, but $9. Oh my gosh. So first of all, easy way to save money on healthy fruits and vegetables. Cut them up yourself at home.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, be aware of where to pay up for organic. In general, if it has a skin or an outer layer that you're not eating in general, you don't need to pay up for organic. I'll leave some links with more info in the show notes. And by the way the show notes can always be found by going to bobbirebell.com/financialgrownuppodcast and scrolling down to the episode. You can also type in bobbirebell.com/podcast and the guest's name. So in this case it would be bobbirebell.com/podcast/kylemaynard.

Bobbi Rebell:
Friends, big thank you. The show is growing. More of you are subscribing, so thank you again. Please tell your friends and all that good stuff. Social media is great, DME. Be in touch on Instagram bobbirebell1, and on Twitter @bobbirebell.

Bobbi Rebell:
And thanks to the great Kyle Maynard for helping us all get one step closer to being Financial Grownups.

Speaker 1:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Advice, Business, Career, Financial Grownup, Podcasts, StartupBobbi Rebell KaufmanKyle Maynard, Extreme Athelete, Entrepreneur, Financial Grownup, layoffs, pivot, financial security, financial freedom, no excuses, author, MMA, wrestling, business strategy, mountain climbing, adventure