Chris Browning, host of the Popcorn Finance podcast got a clean bill of health for his wife after a hospital stay a few years ago. But despite having been patients there before, a billing mixup left his credit score needing intensive care. 

Chris’ Money Story:

Chris Browning:
Yes so you know, unfortunately my wife, she had to go in for surgery and which is never a good thing. So we went to the hospital, everything got taken care of. She's all well now. We figured we'd just get a bill in the mail, that's how most medical bills come, they just send you something in the mail.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did they do any paperwork while you were at the hospital? Did you give them insurance information? What actually transpired at the hospital? Because you do usually fill out some stuff.

Chris Browning:
Yeah, so leading up, you sit in the finance office and they have you sign a couple of waivers and disclosures. And they say. "Alright, let's see your insurance". They took a copy and they said, "Okay we'll bill you". And that's literally all they told me. No further information other than that.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the hospital was in Network? Do you remember?

Chris Browning:
Yeah, it was an in Network hospital.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you were trying to be in Network, okay.

Chris Browning:
Yes, so we did everything we thought we were supposed to do and we visited the hospital before and the billing seemed to work fine, so you know we didn't even think twice about it. It felt normal.

Bobbi Rebell:
This might be important later on. You were in the system having visited the hospital before?

Chris Browning:
Yeah, it was a local hospital.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Chris Browning:
So we just thought, we'll get a bill in the mail like we have in the past. We waited around, nothing came after a couple of months and to be honest, I kind of just forgot about it, because it had been so long and it just never showed up.

Bobbi Rebell:
I would totally forget about it.

Chris Browning:
Yeah, after two months, you assume you would receive it. After that, life just goes on. You do other things. You live life. And so, I have this habit of checking my credit score, because one of my credit cards on their app, they allow you to check your credit score for free, and they'll update it like every seven days. And so I was just taking a look at it, and I noticed my credit score had dropped like a crazy amount. It had dropped about 150 points. That was very alarming, to say the least. And so I decided to take a look in my credit report. And I went to freecreditreport.com. I saw this like delinquency mark and I was like, that's strange. I remember paying all my bills.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Chris Browning:
And when I looked into it, it just gave me just a random number. It didn't really give me a lot of details.

Bobbi Rebell:
Like a phone number?

Chris Browning:
Yeah, it was a random phone number from a ... it was an area code I'd never seen before. And so I gave the phone number a call, and then they gave me the details. They said this is from the hospital that we had visited, and they say you didn't pay your bill and it's been turned over to a collection agency. And this was the collection agency that I was speaking with.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Chris Browning:
I was just shocked and I was like, well how did this happen? And they have limited information.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sure.

Chris Browning:
And all they'd allow me to do at the time was they said, "Would you like to set up a payment plan?". And I was like, well yeah I want to get this cleared up. But I said, "Let me call the hospital first".

Bobbi Rebell:
Well right, and how do you even know they're legit. I mean they're saying they have the debt, but what exactly happened? Because you'd never heard from the hospital.

Chris Browning:
Exactly, so I was a little hesitant. I don't want to give you money just yet. So I called the hospital and got hold of billing department and I asked them. I said, "I see this delinquency on my credit report. They're saying that our bill was into collections, but we never received a bill in the mail". They said, "Well yeah, we mailed it out to you". And I said, "Well we haven't got anything for months". So they checked their system and they said, "Well here's the address we have for you", and it was the wrong address. They had transposed the numbers around, and who knows where the bill actually went.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is crazy because two things. First of all, you had been to this hospital before, so presumably you were in the system correctly at some point because you had paid previous bills. And number two, any company, any person, we should all do it, but certainly a company, a hospital, should have a return address. So if they were going to the wrong address, you would think that they would return the mail, and the hospital would receive it back.

Chris Browning:
Exactly. You think they'd be some type of notification for them to know that whatever they mailed out just came back.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they never called you.

Chris Browning:
They never called.

Bobbi Rebell:
But presumably your phone number is on there.

Chris Browning:
Exactly, you'd think if they hadn't been paid all this time, they'd have at least called to follow up. But no. I think maybe it's just the sheer volume they deal with. They don't even try, they just immediately send it to collections after the time period had passed.

Bobbi Rebell:
So then what did you do?

Chris Browning:
So after I verified with them what collection agency they actually sent the bill to, and it matched the information they I had received from the number I had called, I called the collection agency back, because at that point, the hospital said there's nothing we can do. It's been sold to collections, you know it's out of our hands. I called the number back, I spoke with them. I said, "Yes, we want to take care of this". And I said, "If we pay this off, is there a way that this could be removed from my credit report, because it's a huge mark on my credit?".

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's also not your fault.

Chris Browning:
Exactly. Because I explained to them, I said we just never received the bill. I didn't know what type of pushback I was going to get. If they were going to say no. But surprisingly they said, Yes. If you set up, if you agree to a payment plan now, they gave me the total amount. It matched what the hospital said it should be. They said, if you pay this off, we will contact the credit bureaus and have the delinquency removed, because you've taken care of this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Of course. That's the least they can do. Did the hospital take any ownership of the fact that they had not followed up?

Chris Browning:
Not at all.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's disappointing.

Chris Browning:
They basically just said, sorry, nothing we can do. It's out of our hands and it was on me to take care of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's foolish on their part because generally, and I assume this was the case when you send something to a collection agency, they're only getting a fraction of what the bill was. So they lost out for not bothering and not having the right systems in place to check with you. Presumably the doctor could follow up with you and your wife, so they had contact information that was correct in some part of the system.

Chris Browning:
You'd think that if they knew they're going to lose money, that it'd be in their best interest to do a little more follow-ups, spend a little more time, but no, they just I guess, just dump it off.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, they lost money too. So that maybe there isn't the right stakeholder at the hospital that took ownership of the fact that that bill was not being paid for that reason.

Chris Browning:
Exactly.

Chris’ Money Lesson:

Chris Browning:
I would say first of all, make sure that you follow up on all your medical bills. Even if you think that the office is going to take care of it the way they should, you just never know. You could end up in the situation like this. So I do acknowledge that I could have called and followed up after a month of not hearing anything back.

Bobbi Rebell:
But maybe the insurance you were in Network, so if I was doing something in Network, I would have assumed that if I didn't get a bill, the insurance covered it.

Chris Browning:
I made that assumption too, but I think after this now, I'm going to be on the safe side.

Bobbi Rebell:
Of course.

Chris Browning:
I'm going to give them a call just to follow up if it's been like an unusually long amount of time since I haven't got any communication from them. Just to eliminate any issues or this ever happening again.

Chris Browning:
And the second thing I would say, check your credit score. I was really fortunate that that was a habit that I had picked up. You know we had been paying off some debts so I was in the habit of looking at my credit score to see how it was changing. That's the only reason I knew that there was any type of issue is because I saw my credit score had dropped drastically, and that triggered me to look at my credit report, and that's where I found the error, and I was able to finally take care of it.

Chris’ Money Tip:

Chris Browning:
So my money tip would be check with your credit card company, if you do have a credit card. Or even some banks. A lot of them offer access to your credit score and some even your credit report directly through their website or their mobile app. And so it's really simple. It's free a lot of the time and it's just a really convenient tool to have with you, and whether you're looking for errors or you just want to kind of track your progress. I think it's a really great incentive that these banks are offering to let you stay on top of your credit and your finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And specifically, how often do you do that?

Chris Browning:
I've slowed down. I was a little obsessive. I was checking like every day at one point. Now I'm on a once per month basis. I'll log in, just kind of look and see how things are going, just I want to keep the practice up. I don't want to get too comfortable and let too much time pass, because who knows when an error could pop up.

Bobbi Rebell:
So when people check their credit score, what are the things that they should be looking for that are good and that are bad?

Chris Browning:
So I would say for sure, any type of drastic change. So if you've made this a habit and you're checking on a regular frequency, your credit score's not going to swing wildly. You know it's normal for it to swing 10, 20 points here and there. But if you see any type of drastic change, that would for sure be a trigger point to let you know you need to look into this a little bit more. Whether it's going to some place like freecreditreport.com which is run by Experian and you're getting a copy of your credit report just to see what's going on. Wild changes in any area of your finances is normally a sign of something that's not normal and that's maybe something you should look into a little bit more.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip Number One:

The only thing Chris did wrong here, he did not follow up in finding out what he owed the hospital. So the tip is to try to stay on top of your medical bills, especially the ones that you know are probably coming. Even if you're hoping they're not. That said, the visit was in Network, so Chris in all fairness could have believed there wasn't much to do except for a co-pay that he probably had already paid at the hospital. But at the end of the day, he himself says he should have checked in and been more on top of it. Mixed feelings about that though.

Financial Grownup Tip Number Two:

Don't assume that corporations or institutions such as hospitals are competent in their billing. Question everything. This especially goes sadly for end of life situations where the family is distracted and just wants to move on. Assuming you do get bills, try hard as it may be to go through them. I know of some instances where the bills were so out of control, literally offensive, that people have gone to the financing offices of the hospital and just negotiated them down on the grounds that no one could possibly go through every charge for an overpriced Bandaid or medication or whatever, and prove that it actually happened, was given and was priced correctly. Fairly, and fairly is pretty broad when it comes to our healthcare system. Hold them accountable. Just because they throw a list of a thousand teeny charges on a bill, doesn't mean you can't question it.

Episode Links

• Listen to and learn more about the Popcorn Finance Podcast

• Check your credit score!

Follow Chris Browning and Popcorn Finance!

• Twitter - @popcornfinance

• Instagram - @popcornfinancepodcast

• YouTube - Popcorn Finance 

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

HSA's, aka Health Savings Accounts are getting a lot of buzz - because they can be awesome. Here is the Financial Grownup Guide to 10 things you need to know to find out if HSA’s are right for you. 

Here are the 10 things you must know about them and why you need to find out asap if they are right for you.

1. What are they. Health savings accounts are tax advantaged savings accounts- that means you put in pre-tax money- that can be used to pay for medical related expenses. 

2. Love paying no taxes- how much can I put in? That changes every year. For 2019 you can put in up to $3500- and families can put in up to $7000. If you are over 50 you can do a catch up of an additional $1000. 

3. What kinds of things can I use it for? Generally the things you would get re-imbursed for by insurance once you use up the deductible- so NOT the bi-weekly premiums you are paying but YES to doctor visit you went to or a medication that wasn’t reimbursed because, you have a high deductible that you haven’t met yet.  

4. Am I eligible? You have to have - another acronym here- an HDHP- that is a High Deductible Health Plan. That is defined by the IRS as a deductible of $1350 for an individual and $2700 for a family. You also have to have some hefty out of picket amounts: $6,750 for individuals and $13,500 for families. You also can’t have another medical plan. You can’t be enrolled in Medicare. And you can’t be a dependent on someone else’s tax return. 

5. How do I actually set it up- this can be done through your employer- right along with the health care plan- which is usually a good idea because some companies will also put money into the account for you- and we all love ‘free’ money. According to Mercer the average company contributes almost $700. That money is not included in your gross income.  it can also be set up at some financial institutions. 

6. What does it cost: Many financial institutions do charge fees but they are often waived if you can maintain a minimum balance. I will leave some links in the show notes of great articles that rank financial institutions by things like fee structure from places like Morningstar and the College Investor- which is run by financial grownup Robert Farrington- you guys should make sure to check out his great episode. Also with financial institutions you can put in after tax money - and then deduct it from your income.

7. What if I don’t use it all?  This is my # favorite fact about HSA’s - you get to keep the money. it’s your money. So it rolls over until forever. Even if you later GO on medicare and can’t contribute, you can use it to pay premiums there. So good. BY the way- FSA- flexible spending- it is use it or lose it at the end of the year - big difference here. 

8. What if I leave my job? No worries- HSA’s are portable.

9. Explain the investing thing. The money is invested and the earnings, assuming they are used for eligible medical expenses, remain tax free. 

10. What’s the catch? The big catch is that if you think you are going to have big medical expenses, or you won’t have the cash to actually save and fund the HSA- you might want to consider a lower deduct-able health plan- it’s safer and you won’t get hit so hard with high medical bills. You can still do the flexible spending account.. 

EPISODE LINKS

Here are some resources to find out more about fees associated with HSA’s

https://www.morningstar.com/blog/2018/11/27/hsa-spending-account.html

https://www.morningstar.com/blog/2018/11/12/top-hsa-providers.html

https://thecollegeinvestor.com/22222/best-hsa/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/07/your-money/health-savings-accounts-morningstar.html

https://www.doughroller.net/insurance/health/the-best-hsa-accounts/

Check out The College Investors’ Robert Farrington’s episode

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

 

Indiana-based radiologist Dr. Scott Steenburg joins the Financial Grownup podcast as our first listener to share a money story. Scott shares the story of how a push to have students take out more money than needed to pay for tuition, created devastating debt situations for classmates.

 

In Scott’s money story you will learn:

-Why Scott was offered more money than needed when taking out student loans

-What Scott used his extra student loan cash to buy, and whether it was a smart financial decision

-The things his fellow students spent their extra student loan money on, and how  that impacted their financial wellbeing.

-How the tech stock bubble impacted many of his peers who were leveraging student loan debt

-How much student loan debt Dr. Streenburg had, and how it compared to his peers

-The strategy he and his peers used when they could not pay the debt, along with the consequences

-Whether or not he believes taking on all the debt was worth it

In Scott’s money lesson you will learn:

-His big regret regarding the debt he incurred while in medical school

-The long-term consequences and impact to his peers that spent student loans for things other than tuition. 

-The risks that medical students take on when assuming large student debt, that is unique to the medical profession.

In Scott’s money tip you will learn:

-How you can get medical school debt forgiven

In My Take you will learn:

-how to find programs that allow you have loans reduced or forgiven

-The requirements needed for student loan forgiveness

-Resources to manage, lower, and get rid of student debt

 

EPISODE LINKS

• Government website links:

  • www.studentloans.gov

  • https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation

  • https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service/questions

• Here is the article from Robert Farrington’s The College Investor: 

  • https://thecollegeinvestor.com/578/ways-to-get-student-loan-forgiveness/

• This is the article by Melanie Lockert. 

  • https://studentloanhero.com/featured/the-complete-list-of-student-loan-forgiveness-programs/

• You can also check out Melanie’s episode of Financial Grownup here!

• You can consolidate your student debt, and get  more information by visiting websites, including two that I mention, SoFi.com and StudentLoanHero.com

 

Follow Scott!

Twitter @radiology911

---

Transcription

Scott Steenburg:
Some of my classmates used their excess money to invest in tech stocks. It did not turn out well for them. Some of my classmates lost all of their student loan money in the dot-com bubble.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, but you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. This is a big episode here at Financial Grownup. We tried an experiment. We asked you guys to send in your money stories and your everyday money saving tips to potentially be a guest here on the show, and you know what? It worked out really well. We have our first listener episode. I am so excited for how it turned out. Our guest is fantastic. He is a radiologist in Indiana, Dr. Scott Steenburg, so let's get to Dr. Scott's story. It is about the loans that he and his medical school classmates racked up years ago.

Bobbi Rebell:
Student debt to pay tuition is one thing, but taking up more than you need to actually pay the tuition, your real school costs, is a whole other thing, and the reality is that in some cases people are talked into taking out more than they need, just in case. But remember, that money is there and sometimes it doesn't get paid back right away. Sometimes it gets invested in, oh, technology stocks that can crash and burn in the dot-com bubble. It could also go to a new car. You'll hear all about it. Here is Dr. Scott Steenburg.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Scott Steenburg. You're a Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Scott Steenburg:
Thanks a lot, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
And congratulations, you are our very first listener that we are having as a guest. You're the winner, so I'm so excited to have you.

Scott Steenburg:
I'm glad to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just quickly, tell us about you, what you do.

Scott Steenburg:
Sure. My name is Scott Steinberg. I am a radiologist in Indiana. A radiologist is a physician who specializes in interpretation of medical images such as X-ray, CAT scan, and MRI, and my subspecialty is in the emergency and trauma radiology world.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. What made you decide to write in?

Scott Steenburg:
Well, I've been listening to your podcast since the very beginning. A lot of your stories that you have on your podcast are very compelling, and when I heard that you wanted to have a listener on with a compelling story, I thought, "You know, there are some really weird things about the student loan industry," particularly with respect to medical school that I thought maybe this might be something that you haven't heard of before, so I reached out to you and told you some interesting nuggets about that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which brings us to your story, which is very interesting, especially because it has to do with your student loans, but also money that you didn't necessarily use for tuition, so tell us exactly what happened.

Scott Steenburg:
Sure. As you probably know, medical school is not cheap, so most medical students need to finance their education with student loans. At that time when I started medical in 1999, it was really easy to get a lot of loans for all four years of medical school.

Bobbi Rebell:
And how much did four years of medical school cost at the time?

Scott Steenburg:
At the time tuition, I went to an instate school, it was maybe 9,000 per semester, so 18 to 20,000 per year, which is not a whole lot by today's standards.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, so go on. You were able to get financing, though, to go to school?

Scott Steenburg:
Yes, so during the interview process, you interview for getting into the medical school, and then in the afternoon you meet with a financial aid counselor to figure out how you're going to pay for medical school. At that time, I'm not sure if it's commonplace now, but at that time we were kind of nudged towards taking out the maximum allowable student loans because in future years, if you lower the amount that you requested, there was no guarantee that you'd be able to increase that number in the future, so we were kind of nudged towards just take up the maximum, and if you have access leftover you can do whatever you want with it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, so how much did you take out relative to what the tuition was? You took out more than the tuition.

Scott Steenburg:
Yeah, so as a medical student it's hard to have a job to help pay for living expenses, so a lot of medical students will finance not only their tuition, but also living expenses such as food and rent and whatnot.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you use the money for, besides living expenses? You bought a car.

Scott Steenburg:
Yeah, yeah. That's one thing that I told you about. If you have excess student loans, you can do whatever you want with it. You can either pay back immediately, which is the financially responsible thing to do. What I did one semester is I knew I had enough living expenses saved up, I already looked at my budget, I knew I wasn't going to need the student loan check, so I literally, it arrived in the mail and I walked across the street to the bank and put it in a one-year CD. At that time, the interest rate was somewhere just higher than the interest rate for the loan, so I did make a little bit on that, but it would have been smarter just to pay back right away to lower the overall balance. One thing I did in the subsequent years, I needed a new car, my car was falling apart, I needed to be able to commute from my apartment to school, so I used my excess student loan money to buy a new car.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you need a car? I mean, was that a legit expense, or did you buy a lot more than you really needed?

Scott Steenburg:
We bought what we needed. The good thing about this, if there is a silver lining, is I put 50% down, so there's a small balance, but then I financed the rest at 7%, which was not a great idea, so I'm using the student loan money that has an interest rate at that time of 3.5% to pay off another loan that has 7%, so that was a terrible, terrible choice.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, but you told me some people did even other things like buying tech stocks.

Scott Steenburg:
Yeah, so this was in 1999 to 2003 when I was in medical school, and some of my classmates used their excess money to invest in tech stocks, and it did not turn out well for them. Some of my classmates lost all of their student loan money in the dot-com bubble.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. That's really scary. Let's talk more about you. So, we get to the end of school. Describe to me how much you had in debt and then what was happening at that point.

Scott Steenburg:
Sure, so I graduated in 2003 and immediately started residency, entered a five-year residency in radiology. At that time, the student loan balance was about 130,000 which by today's standards is a fraction of what students are graduating with. I threw out an informal poll to a closed physician Facebook group that I'm a part of, and the numbers I was getting back for current graduates was between 200 and 400,000. So by today's standards my balance was not all that big, and even the minimum payments at that time were somewhat draconian. I was making a resident salary which at that time was about $35,000 per year, and out of that, of course, I needed living expenses, had to pay for a car, had to commute every day, so even the minimum payment was tight.

Scott Steenburg:
So what a lot of students do in this instance is they first defer, and at that point you could defer up to 36 months. I think it might still be that. Then after that, if you still can't make your payments, then you can go into forbearance, which is even worse, so then throughout the entire time the interest is accruing. From the time I started medical school to the time I started paying down my loan, it was nine years, so that was a long time of compounding.

Bobbi Rebell:
So then where did it stand? How did this end up?

Scott Steenburg:
Sure. The balance tipped the scales at about 165,000. I started making very aggressive payments in 2009, and this story turns out okay. I was able to finish paying off those loans last year. Everything turned out okay, and I really don't have any complaints. Taking all these loans helped enable me to realize my dream of becoming a physician and being a radiologist and doing what I love to do, but I live in a world of chaos in the emergency and trauma world, and I see people's lives destroyed every day.

Scott Steenburg:
Nine years of deferral of putting off student loan payments is a long time. That's a long time, and anything could have happened. If I developed an illness, or if I were in a car accident like a lot of the patients I see every day, or if I developed a disability or for some reason couldn't finish residency, that would have been really, really bad. And fortunately everything turned out okay for me, but for a lot of people it doesn't.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you feel when you would see $165,000 as your balance?

Scott Steenburg:
Honestly, I buried my head in the sand. I didn't want to think about it. When I saw the number going up every month, and each month the amount that it would increase would increase because of compounding, I put it out of sight, out of mind. I kept my eye on the prize of finishing residency, and when I got an attending job, an attending salary, I had to be able to quickly pay it off, but in retrospect, I was entering the danger zone. You know, if something bad happened that negatively impacted my ability to earn income, it may not have turned out so well, and as you know and many of your listeners know, dismissing student loans and bankruptcy is very challenging.

Bobbi Rebell:
Is that something you ever thought about?

Scott Steenburg:
No, no.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Scott Steenburg:
I knew that once I finished residency and got a job I was going to be able to pay it down. I mean, the number is big and it was moderately terrifying, but once I started seeing that number come down, I started to feel better about it. I regretted having that balanced because I knew I could be taking that money and putting it to good use elsewhere. I did some math. You know, if I didn't have student loans and I used all that money to invest, it was a much bigger return than just taking out the student loans.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what is the takeaway then, for our listeners? When you look back at who you were when you were first entering medical school and having these meetings with the financial aid advisors, what would you have done differently, if anything?

Scott Steenburg:
I probably would have taken the excess money that I didn't need. I would have just paid back the balance and be able to give it back. You can use debt as a tool to accomplish your goals. However, if you're going to use debt to finance an education, you have to be very mindful of that. You need to be conservative, only take out what you need and then pay back as quickly as possible. If you use debt, especially for education, incorrectly and something bad happens that negatively impacts your ability to pay back the loan, that could be financially devastating.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about these people that were ... I mean, was it a popular thing at the time to take your student loan money, and instead of using it for tuition, use it to buy stocks?

Scott Steenburg:
That was one popular thing that students did. Other students would, if they had time off, they would go on a nice vacation. Like, me, I helped buy a car. That's what a lot of the students did, and like me, a lot of them were putting it out of sight, out of mind. All we need to do is finish medical school, go to residency, get an attending job with a higher salary, and pay back the loans quickly. But as I said before, it's a long time from the time you start to the time you end and start making a physician salary to be able to pay that down aggressively, and anything could happen in that time.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what is your money tip now? You have something really innovative that maybe some people don't know about, but could really be helpful.

Scott Steenburg:
One thing that exists in the medical world is a student loan forgiveness program where if you start paying off your loans even during training and you go to work for a non-profit, over a shorter period of time you'll have those loans forgiven. I'm sure there are other programs for non-medical professionals where there's a similar type track where if you go to, for example, an underserved area in your field, that you may be able to have some of your student loans forgiven or paid off.

Bobbi Rebell:
Great. Well, thank you so much, Scott. Is there anything else that you want to add? Anything you want people to know about you? How to reach you?

Scott Steenburg:
Sure. If you'd like to follow me on Twitter, I'm @Radiology911.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that.

Scott Steenburg:
So that's a nod to my ... that's a nod to my-

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you get that? That's pretty cool that you got that handle.

Scott Steenburg:
I don't know. It just came to me, so I picked it. So that's a nod to what I do. I don't do a whole lot of personal finance there. Most of what I do is medical education, physician wellness, and policy, but if you like to see interesting images, that's where to go.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Thank you, Scott. You were wonderful, and really thank you so much for supporting the program.

Scott Steenburg:
Thanks for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. So first, student loan debt, as Scott mentioned, is pretty hard to get rid of unless you actually pay it. It stays with you even in bankruptcy, but there are some programs that you can at least look into and some options that are emerging, some new things in just the past few years. I'm going to send you guys to government website called studentloans.gov, and from there you can look for how to repay your loans and go to repayment forms. I'm going to now walk you through some of what you'll see there just to give you a high level sense of your options.

Bobbi Rebell:
So financial grownup tip number one, some loans, like Federal Family Education Loans and Perkins Loans can be eligible for something called Public Service Loan Forgiveness. The key thing for eligibility is that you have made 120 qualifying payments under a qualifying repayment plan while working full-time for a qualifying employer. That's a lot, I know.

Bobbi Rebell:
The key thing, though, qualifying employment is generally things like government organizations, federal, state, local. They even say tribal on that government site. You guys are going to follow up and look for yourselves. Also non-profits, like those with the 501(c)(3) designation. Also some other non-profit organizations, if they provide certain public services, things like AmeriCorps or Peace Corps volunteer. So if you are interested in those things anyway, it could be something to look into that could pay off in more ways than one.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial grownup tip number second. Now, this is more for the for-profit schools, some of which were not living up to what they promised students, so you can also apply for something called borrower defense to repayment if you took out loans to attend a school that misled you about the educational services that you paid for with the loans. There's a lot of fine print to all of this. You have to follow up by really combing through the website. It even covers the extremely rare times that student debt can be forgiven in bankruptcy, but again, that's very rare. And also, of course, what happens to student debt if the student or the parents, who in some cases are the borrowers, pass away.

Bobbi Rebell:
A few other resources regarding student debt. Check out one of my favorite websites on this topic, The College Investor. It is run by Robert Farrington. He knows a lot about student debt. He even has a great article I'm going to leave. Well, there's many great articles, but I'm going to leave a link to an article that's one of my favorite in the show notes for more ideas to get your debt forgiven, and also answering questions about things you might have heard of that were options in the past but have now merged into other forms, so it's important to keep up with it. It's kind of a moving target, the way that the laws change. Also, SoFi and Student Loan Hero both run blogs that have a lot of useful information. I'm going to leave a link to a great article by my friend and former financial grownup podcast guest, Melanie Lockert, in the show notes as well that has some great resources.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you to radiologist Scott Steenburg for being our very first listener to share their money story and advice. It was great. If you want to be considered for an upcoming episode, email us at info@financialgrownup.com. Tell us what money story and what everyday money tip you would share if you were chosen.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thanks to everyone for your support. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, please take a moment to rate and review the podcast. If you are enjoying the podcast, please tell someone that you think would also like it. Spread the word. Post it in one of your Facebook groups and tell people to check it out. If you spot one of our video promos on Twitter or Instagram, share that, and you could win a custom one just for yourself. We're running a little competition.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm on Twitter, @bobbirebell, on Instagram, at bobbirebell1, on Facebook, at Bobbi Rebell. I can't thank Scott enough for reaching out and being our first listener to share a story. It was a good one, and something unfortunately way too many people can relate to, but I do think his story and his great advice got us all one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Chris Browning, host of the Popcorn Finance podcast got a clean bill of health for his wife after a hospital stay a few years ago. But despite having been patients there before, a billing mixup left his credit score needing intensive care. 

Chris’ Money Story:

Chris Browning:
Yes so you know, unfortunately my wife, she had to go in for surgery and which is never a good thing. So we went to the hospital, everything got taken care of. She's all well now. We figured we'd just get a bill in the mail, that's how most medical bills come, they just send you something in the mail.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did they do any paperwork while you were at the hospital? Did you give them insurance information? What actually transpired at the hospital? Because you do usually fill out some stuff.

Chris Browning:
Yeah, so leading up, you sit in the finance office and they have you sign a couple of waivers and disclosures. And they say. "Alright, let's see your insurance". They took a copy and they said, "Okay we'll bill you". And that's literally all they told me. No further information other than that.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the hospital was in Network? Do you remember?

Chris Browning:
Yeah, it was an in Network hospital.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you were trying to be in Network, okay.

Chris Browning:
Yes, so we did everything we thought we were supposed to do and we visited the hospital before and the billing seemed to work fine, so you know we didn't even think twice about it. It felt normal.

Bobbi Rebell:
This might be important later on. You were in the system having visited the hospital before?

Chris Browning:
Yeah, it was a local hospital.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Chris Browning:
So we just thought, we'll get a bill in the mail like we have in the past. We waited around, nothing came after a couple of months and to be honest, I kind of just forgot about it, because it had been so long and it just never showed up.

Bobbi Rebell:
I would totally forget about it.

Chris Browning:
Yeah, after two months, you assume you would receive it. After that, life just goes on. You do other things. You live life. And so, I have this habit of checking my credit score, because one of my credit cards on their app, they allow you to check your credit score for free, and they'll update it like every seven days. And so I was just taking a look at it, and I noticed my credit score had dropped like a crazy amount. It had dropped about 150 points. That was very alarming, to say the least. And so I decided to take a look in my credit report. And I went to freecreditreport.com. I saw this like delinquency mark and I was like, that's strange. I remember paying all my bills.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Chris Browning:
And when I looked into it, it just gave me just a random number. It didn't really give me a lot of details.

Bobbi Rebell:
Like a phone number?

Chris Browning:
Yeah, it was a random phone number from a ... it was an area code I'd never seen before. And so I gave the phone number a call, and then they gave me the details. They said this is from the hospital that we had visited, and they say you didn't pay your bill and it's been turned over to a collection agency. And this was the collection agency that I was speaking with.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Chris Browning:
I was just shocked and I was like, well how did this happen? And they have limited information.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sure.

Chris Browning:
And all they'd allow me to do at the time was they said, "Would you like to set up a payment plan?". And I was like, well yeah I want to get this cleared up. But I said, "Let me call the hospital first".

Bobbi Rebell:
Well right, and how do you even know they're legit. I mean they're saying they have the debt, but what exactly happened? Because you'd never heard from the hospital.

Chris Browning:
Exactly, so I was a little hesitant. I don't want to give you money just yet. So I called the hospital and got hold of billing department and I asked them. I said, "I see this delinquency on my credit report. They're saying that our bill was into collections, but we never received a bill in the mail". They said, "Well yeah, we mailed it out to you". And I said, "Well we haven't got anything for months". So they checked their system and they said, "Well here's the address we have for you", and it was the wrong address. They had transposed the numbers around, and who knows where the bill actually went.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is crazy because two things. First of all, you had been to this hospital before, so presumably you were in the system correctly at some point because you had paid previous bills. And number two, any company, any person, we should all do it, but certainly a company, a hospital, should have a return address. So if they were going to the wrong address, you would think that they would return the mail, and the hospital would receive it back.

Chris Browning:
Exactly. You think they'd be some type of notification for them to know that whatever they mailed out just came back.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they never called you.

Chris Browning:
They never called.

Bobbi Rebell:
But presumably your phone number is on there.

Chris Browning:
Exactly, you'd think if they hadn't been paid all this time, they'd have at least called to follow up. But no. I think maybe it's just the sheer volume they deal with. They don't even try, they just immediately send it to collections after the time period had passed.

Bobbi Rebell:
So then what did you do?

Chris Browning:
So after I verified with them what collection agency they actually sent the bill to, and it matched the information they I had received from the number I had called, I called the collection agency back, because at that point, the hospital said there's nothing we can do. It's been sold to collections, you know it's out of our hands. I called the number back, I spoke with them. I said, "Yes, we want to take care of this". And I said, "If we pay this off, is there a way that this could be removed from my credit report, because it's a huge mark on my credit?".

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's also not your fault.

Chris Browning:
Exactly. Because I explained to them, I said we just never received the bill. I didn't know what type of pushback I was going to get. If they were going to say no. But surprisingly they said, Yes. If you set up, if you agree to a payment plan now, they gave me the total amount. It matched what the hospital said it should be. They said, if you pay this off, we will contact the credit bureaus and have the delinquency removed, because you've taken care of this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Of course. That's the least they can do. Did the hospital take any ownership of the fact that they had not followed up?

Chris Browning:
Not at all.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's disappointing.

Chris Browning:
They basically just said, sorry, nothing we can do. It's out of our hands and it was on me to take care of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's foolish on their part because generally, and I assume this was the case when you send something to a collection agency, they're only getting a fraction of what the bill was. So they lost out for not bothering and not having the right systems in place to check with you. Presumably the doctor could follow up with you and your wife, so they had contact information that was correct in some part of the system.

Chris Browning:
You'd think that if they knew they're going to lose money, that it'd be in their best interest to do a little more follow-ups, spend a little more time, but no, they just I guess, just dump it off.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, they lost money too. So that maybe there isn't the right stakeholder at the hospital that took ownership of the fact that that bill was not being paid for that reason.

Chris Browning:
Exactly.

Chris’ Money Lesson:

Chris Browning:
I would say first of all, make sure that you follow up on all your medical bills. Even if you think that the office is going to take care of it the way they should, you just never know. You could end up in the situation like this. So I do acknowledge that I could have called and followed up after a month of not hearing anything back.

Bobbi Rebell:
But maybe the insurance you were in Network, so if I was doing something in Network, I would have assumed that if I didn't get a bill, the insurance covered it.

Chris Browning:
I made that assumption too, but I think after this now, I'm going to be on the safe side.

Bobbi Rebell:
Of course.

Chris Browning:
I'm going to give them a call just to follow up if it's been like an unusually long amount of time since I haven't got any communication from them. Just to eliminate any issues or this ever happening again.

Chris Browning:
And the second thing I would say, check your credit score. I was really fortunate that that was a habit that I had picked up. You know we had been paying off some debts so I was in the habit of looking at my credit score to see how it was changing. That's the only reason I knew that there was any type of issue is because I saw my credit score had dropped drastically, and that triggered me to look at my credit report, and that's where I found the error, and I was able to finally take care of it.

Chris’ Money Tip:

Chris Browning:
So my money tip would be check with your credit card company, if you do have a credit card. Or even some banks. A lot of them offer access to your credit score and some even your credit report directly through their website or their mobile app. And so it's really simple. It's free a lot of the time and it's just a really convenient tool to have with you, and whether you're looking for errors or you just want to kind of track your progress. I think it's a really great incentive that these banks are offering to let you stay on top of your credit and your finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And specifically, how often do you do that?

Chris Browning:
I've slowed down. I was a little obsessive. I was checking like every day at one point. Now I'm on a once per month basis. I'll log in, just kind of look and see how things are going, just I want to keep the practice up. I don't want to get too comfortable and let too much time pass, because who knows when an error could pop up.

Bobbi Rebell:
So when people check their credit score, what are the things that they should be looking for that are good and that are bad?

Chris Browning:
So I would say for sure, any type of drastic change. So if you've made this a habit and you're checking on a regular frequency, your credit score's not going to swing wildly. You know it's normal for it to swing 10, 20 points here and there. But if you see any type of drastic change, that would for sure be a trigger point to let you know you need to look into this a little bit more. Whether it's going to some place like freecreditreport.com which is run by Experian and you're getting a copy of your credit report just to see what's going on. Wild changes in any area of your finances is normally a sign of something that's not normal and that's maybe something you should look into a little bit more.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip Number One:

The only thing Chris did wrong here, he did not follow up in finding out what he owed the hospital. So the tip is to try to stay on top of your medical bills, especially the ones that you know are probably coming. Even if you're hoping they're not. That said, the visit was in Network, so Chris in all fairness could have believed there wasn't much to do except for a co-pay that he probably had already paid at the hospital. But at the end of the day, he himself says he should have checked in and been more on top of it. Mixed feelings about that though.

Financial Grownup Tip Number Two:

Don't assume that corporations or institutions such as hospitals are competent in their billing. Question everything. This especially goes sadly for end of life situations where the family is distracted and just wants to move on. Assuming you do get bills, try hard as it may be to go through them. I know of some instances where the bills were so out of control, literally offensive, that people have gone to the financing offices of the hospital and just negotiated them down on the grounds that no one could possibly go through every charge for an overpriced Bandaid or medication or whatever, and prove that it actually happened, was given and was priced correctly. Fairly, and fairly is pretty broad when it comes to our healthcare system. Hold them accountable. Just because they throw a list of a thousand teeny charges on a bill, doesn't mean you can't question it.

Episode Links

• Listen to and learn more about the Popcorn Finance Podcast

• Check your credit score!

Follow Chris Browning and Popcorn Finance!

• Twitter - @popcornfinance

• Instagram - @popcornfinancepodcast

• YouTube - Popcorn Finance 

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

John Schwartz, NY Times correspondent and author of the new book “This Is the Year I Put My Financial Life in Order” shares the story of his first home purchase, how it brought him to the brink of bankruptcy, and why he flosses every day. 

In John’s money story you will learn:

-How John’s seemingly solid real estate investment went downhill

-How the rights of tenants can put owners in losing positions

-The specific financial steps John took ahead of a likely bankruptcy filing

-The factors that went into John’s decision about bankruptcy

In John’s lesson you will learn:

-Why John says failure is not the end of your financial life

-How John and his family rebuilt their life

-The specific steps John took to financially protect his second home

-What he would and would not have done differently in buying real estate

-The impact of a broad-economic downturn on individuals like John, and how you can create some protection as a home owner

In John’s money tip you will learn:

-The one health tip that John says will save you a ton of money

-The importance of daily health habits to avoid massive medical bills

-How his life informed his book “The is the Year I Put my Financial Life in Order” and how the book came together

-Why John did not have a will until his late 50’s

-John’s advice on retirement savings

In my take you will learn:

-Real Estate is a high stakes game, that should be entered into with eyes wide open

-My take on what John could have done differently

-The choice my family made to avoid investing in a property that would be hard to sell

-Why I still believe owning real estate is a great opportunity, despite the tax law changes

Follow John!

Twitter: @JSwatz

Facebook: This is the Year Schwartz

 

 

Buy John’s book!! : This is the Year I Put My Financial Life in Order ! 

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Transcription

John Schwartz:
My father-in-law said, "You have to file for bankruptcy." I contacted a couple of bankruptcy lawyers and the one that I ended up with said, "You don't need to file for bankruptcy, you need to get out from under the single debt that's killing you."

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup. With me, certified planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To be a Financial Grownup. You know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey everyone, before we get into today's interview, I want to do a quick thank you to all of you for supporting the show. Our numbers are going up, which is really cool. The show is being discovered and I have all of you to thank for it. I also want to thank some of our friends in the media that have highlighted Financial Grownup, including Forbes, which named Financial Grownup one of five podcasts that are getting it right. We were up there with some really big names like TheSkimm and Masters of Scale with Reid Hoffman and Powderkeg and a Rent the Runway related show, so it was pretty incredible to get that recognition.

Bobbi Rebell:
I also want to thank Business Insider for highlighting our recent episode with The Muse's co-founder Kathryn Minshew. Her story is pretty incredible, so I'm glad more people got to learn about it. Thank you to all of you and I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Okay. Now to the show. Many of us bring our A game to our professional lives. I certainly try to, but then we don't always make the effort at home. Think of the chef that whips up these gourmet, amazing meals at their fancy restaurant, then they go home and they can barely scrounge together maybe a grilled cheese or some leftovers. Who knows? New York Times correspondent, John Schwartz, is that guy. No, he's not a cook. He's obviously a journalist, but he does research for a living.

Bobbi Rebell:
He's written four books and he's also been a journalist at a number of prestigious publications. Right now, as I mentioned, he's at The New York Times, but in his personal life, he messed up and it cost him, and it kept costing him for years. It was really bad. But, the story of the author of his new book, This is the Year I Put My Financial Life in Order. Sensing a theme here, he got it together. Does have a happy ending. Just maybe not what you were thinking. Here is John Schwartz. Hey John Schwartz, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

John Schwartz:
Well, thanks it's great to be with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Congratulations. Your new book, This is The Year I Put My Financial Life in Order is coming out right now. I whipped through this book by the way in a day and a half, which is pretty amazing, cuz I can be a bit of a procrastinator, but I couldn't put this down. It was a great book.

John Schwartz:
God, I'm glad to hear that. Thank you so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
How long did it take you to write it, by the way?

John Schwartz:
It was a little more than one year.

Bobbi Rebell:
I brought that up, because within the book is this gem of a money story that, I don't know, at first when you told me it I was disappointed in you, but when I read it in the context of the book, I respected you and I felt like, wow, this could happen to anyone. Tell us your money story.

John Schwartz:
Well, we bought an apartment in New York, which is either a success story or the beginning of a horror story. In our case, it turned pretty bad, because I got a job in another city.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which should be good-

John Schwartz:
Which should be good. Again, career advancement? Exactly. But, we got there and not only could I not sell the apartment in New York, because we had bought at the top of the market, but when we had a tenant, which also seemed like a pretty good idea, that tenant decided to stop paying. And, knew his rights, as he told me over the phone. I was either gonna have to spend a tremendous amount of money on lawyers to get him out or as the super in the building suggested, kill him.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, no.

John Schwartz:
No, exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
He is alive and well. Let's just make that clear.

John Schwartz:
Right. Well, at least, last I checked. Then, over time all our savings were gone. We were faced with near bankruptcy and ended up defaulting on the apartment and losing it. As a little side note, that apartment's worth more than a million dollars today.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Can you give us some of the numbers involved and how this happened?

John Schwartz:
Well, it was $136,000. I believe, it might have been 138, my memories not perfect. We were able to pull together the down payment in part, because my wife had a little inheritance from her grandfather and I'd been making pretty good money at Newsweek. We were able to make the payments, but we were not able to make those payments and pay our rent in Washington. That's where the money really started to kill us.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the tenants weren't paying.

John Schwartz:
And the tenants were paying nothing. Well, we have the first tenant, I finally got him out at the suggestion of a very kind lawyer who said, "Send him a letter telling him that you won't pursue him legally if he just leaves."

Bobbi Rebell:
So, you forfeited money.

John Schwartz:
He was never gonna pay. I was gonna spend more money pursuing this guy in court and the lawyer, very intelligently said, "Don't throw good money after bad. Just see if this is enough of an incentive to get him out." It was and he left. Then we got the next tenants in. Again, just as with the first guy, we did a credit check, looked good. We tried to do eyes open transactions here. The second couple was very nice, but a few months in the woman called me and said, "My husband's left and I can't pay." I said, "Okay. Get out." That's when my father-in-law said, "You have to file for bankruptcy."

John Schwartz:
I contacted a couple of bankruptcy lawyers and the one that I ended up with said, "You don't need to file for bankruptcy. You need to get out from under the single debt that's killing you. Everything else, you're banking all your other payment. You're living right, but you have this one unsustainable debt, this mortgage." He walked me through the default process.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson for our listeners here?

John Schwartz:
The first lesson is failure, really crushing failure, as much as it hurts, is not the end of your life. It's not even the end of your financial life. We went through this, more than 20 years ago. You gotta imagine I was devastated by it, but over time we were able to rebuild. Before doing the default, I had been able to get a mortgage on a place in Maryland. So, we had a home that we could not lose.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you were smart with your timing. You did this very thoughtfully. You didn't just let it default. You thought, "Okay, before we let this happen, what financial things can we put in order?"

John Schwartz:
Right. How can I fix this to the extent that I can fix it? So, we were in the house. We went through the process on the other place. It was our new beginning and that's the message. That you can take failure and turn it into the next step of your life. In fact, when we sold that house five or six years later, we were able to sell it at twice the purchase price. Now, we bought it, it was a wreck and we really had to fix it up. That's-

Bobbi Rebell:
You put in the work.

John Schwartz:
... sort of the way we do things. We put in the work and we found a place that was seriously underpriced in the market. Largely, because it was such a wreck, but that turned around everything for us. We went from total failure to in a house, to a pretty good success.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love a happy ending. Looking back though are there things that you would have done differently or looking back, it just happened. Would you have not taken the job in Washington had you known what a debacle the New York apartment would be or really, it just happened and this is the way your life is?

John Schwartz:
I think I could have done things more intelligently. The way that I was looking for an apartment was more about feel than really working through the numbers and understanding what I was up against. I didn't know and might have been able to figure out that this apartment, which was part of a co-op conversion was happening in a building where the for rent apartments were not shifting to co-ops quickly enough.

John Schwartz:
One of our big problems was that we couldn't sell it, because banks didn't want to lend money in a down market in an undersubscribed co-op. Now, those were things I only learned after the fact, but wouldn't it have been smart to learn them before putting money down? Research counts. I mean, I do research for a living, right? I do the research and I type.

Bobbi Rebell:
Your job, but not your personal life sometimes. That's what happens to all of us, right?

John Schwartz:
That's right and that's the story of this book. Learning to do for myself what I do in my job.

Bobbi Rebell:
Part of my enjoyment in reading this book was getting some of your little tips in life. Tell me the money tip that you are gonna share with us that everyone can put in place. Hopefully, they're already doing it, but it actually is a money tip even though people may not think of it that way.

John Schwartz:
Okay. If you're ready for this, it's flossing. Now I sound like that dentist from Sesame Street. Could I just say a few words about flossing? Flossing's important not just because it helps keep your gums healthy and all that stuff, it is something that I started to do in my late-20s regularly, after I had a bout with a periodontal condition. I needed a procedure. After that, there was not a day I missed flossing.

John Schwartz:
What flossing does, more than helping your gums, but I'll get back to that. Is that it establishes a daily habit. Establishing daily habits is the foundation stone for all sorts of good things. If you can floss every day, then you can exercise every day, if you can find the time. Then you find how to make the time. If you can exercise every day, maybe you can save a little money.

John Schwartz:
You can show discipline in other parts of your life, but even more than that, your teeth and gums are gonna be healthy. You're gonna have a much smaller chance of running into the kind of mouth problems that I had in my late-20s, which are expensive. Even if you've got insurance, you've got deductible and everything else. It's part of using good habits to prevent, preventable problems.

Bobbi Rebell:
It all goes together. The book, This is The Year I Put My Financial Life in Order. I love it. Tell our listeners a little bit more about it.

John Schwartz:
Well, it's coming out on April 3rd. It is part guide and part memoir, which is a sort of weird blend, but you know. Reese's put together chocolate and peanut butter and that worked. The idea is that I put my financial life in order by applying research to the problems of my life and the issues that were still undone. Like, I was in my late-50s and I didn't have a will, which is idiotic. I hadn't looked at my retirement to understand whether I was gonna live comfortably, or whether I needed to do more, whether it was a disaster.

Bobbi Rebell:
But you are okay, by the way.

John Schwartz:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Spoiler alert. You're fine.

John Schwartz:
Yes, spoiler alert.

Bobbi Rebell:
Good to hear.

John Schwartz:
Largely because I started putting money away in my 20s. The first time I got a significant raise, I opened a 401k and put the money in. There are no financial secrets in this book, but there are a lot of fundamentals like, start early and make your contributions. These were the lessons that got me through. The idea behind the book is, I would hope that by reading what I went through, people could figure out what they can do too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where can people find you, John?

John Schwartz:
I am on Twitter at @jswatz, J-S-W-A-T-Z. There's a Facebook page for the book, This is The Year Schwartz.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love it.

John Schwartz:
It's fun, but the Facebook page is there to talk about the book and for people to talk about their own financial issues. The book is gonna be in stores or you can get it anywhere.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Well, I am a huge fan, John Schwartz. I highly recommend everybody read it. It is a page turner, which is not typical of personal finance books. So, definitely everyone check it out. Thank you so much, sir.

John Schwartz:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here is my take on what John had to say. Real estate investment glorified in our society, but make no mistake, it is a high stakes proposition and sometimes life and the macro economy gets in the way. Financial Grownup tip number one, buy what you can sell later on. Always think, how will this sell? You can read more in John's book, but in short, that apartment that he bought, because he could afford it, to be fair, was not in a great family neighborhood. He got a good deal, he thought, but when the apartment went for sale in tough times and he needed to sell, it just wasn't selling.

Bobbi Rebell:
Case in point, when my husband and I went to buy our current apartment, there were two identical apartments for sale in the same building, same layout. You get the idea. One was a lot cheaper, like 25% cheaper, a lot. We could have really used the savings, but there was a catch. A giant flashing orange neon parking sign right across the street. You could see it through what would be our son's bedroom window.

Bobbi Rebell:
We rationalized a little bit. Many apartments in New York face brick walls, so this at least was facing open air, just at night there would be this giant flashing parking sign. We could get blackout shades though, right? You know what? We ended up going for the other apartment on a higher floor, not a great view, but an okay view and no parking sign, because we knew that the pull of buyers when we went to sell would be limited even in an upmarket and it could be nonexistent in a downmarket, if we went to sell that apartment where people just would not buy it. Some people, no matter what, they are not buying the apartment with a flashing orange parking sign that would be in their child's room their whole childhood. So, John found out that sometimes an apartment that's a deal, is not really such a deal.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two, don't give up on real estate. John kept at it and had a great experience the second time around. I'm a big believer in owning your own home. The tax breaks are not as good as they used to be, but you're not gonna live in fear of a landlord raising the rent, or simply asking you to leave.

Bobbi Rebell:
Friends, be sure to check out John's new book, This is The Year I Put My Financial Life in Order. You will learn from John, but you will also laugh along with John. It is a fun and readable memoirish personal finance guide well worth your time. Thank you all for spending a little bit of your day with us. Keep up the great feedback. I am on Twitter @bobbirebell, on Instagram @bobbirebell1. I hope you enjoy this episode with John Schwartz and that it brought us all one step closer to being Financial Grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.