Competition is fierce for home buyers. Greg McBride tells us everything financial grownups need to know to get the best deal on their new home and other real estate buying insider secrets.

Greg’s Best Tips For Aspiring Homeowners

Yeah, this is a market where I start to get concerned that there's the tendency to get swept up in the fervor, and then people stretch and stretch too far. I mean, people typically stretch when we buy a home anyway, but I think in an overheated market like this, you've got to be really wary because the competition is so heated. People might have a tendency to stretch a little too far. And so, don't buy a home based on your best case scenario, or assuming that your best income year is what is going to be status quo going forward. I mean, as we learned over the last 12 months, the economy goes through ebbs and flows, how a lot of households saw their incomes drop off very suddenly.

Greg McBride:
You need to plan for those types of contingencies and lead yourself plenty of financial breathing room. And look, the bottom line is for a lot of people, that might mean rethinking home ownership, not for good, but at least just for right now, given the overheated market and the tendency to stretch beyond what you can afford. The novelty of that new home is going to wear off in a few years, the mortgage payments will not, that's the thing to keep in mind.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. But also we tend to look at what the bank will approve us for. The base will say, "Here's how much we will give you a mortgage for," this is what you qualify for when they do pre-approvals, which is something that is a tip for everybody, make sure you do get pre-approved for mortgages. How do people gauge realistically what that number means in terms of figuring out, as you say, what's the stretch and what's the more conservative number?

Greg’s Tips For Gauging A More Realistic Number Than What We Are Pre-Approved For

Greg McBride:
Well, couple things. First that pre-approval amount, this is not the Wild Wild West, anything goes, days of 2005, 2006, 2007, where people were being approved for far more than they can afford to repay. Lending standards are much more sane now, if anything, lenders are eerie on the side of being conservative. The amount that people are getting approved for isn't sky high, relative to what they can actually afford.

Greg’s Tips For Managing Interest Rates

Greg McBride:
The best rates out there are available for consumers and have credit scores of 740 and above. So, if you're in that neighborhood, you're going to score those great rates that are out there. But even if your credit scores, 700, 710, 720, you're still going to get a really good rate. It's if your credit score gets below 680, that's where lenders get a little bit more conservative. There's not as many lenders at the table and the offers aren't as good. And, I think that's where you really got to worry about biting off more than you can chew, in terms of the actual cost of the financing. Rates are still well below 3% and those are on 30-year fixed rate. Mortgage rates aren't going to price people out. It's the pricing, it's the lack of inventory of homes available for sale, those are going to be the real obstacles, not mortgage rates, at least for well qualified borrowers.

Greg’s Tips For Mitigating Surprises

Greg McBride:
There are a lot of other costs that go beyond just that monthly principal and interest on the mortgage payment. You're going to have property taxes. You're going to have property insurance. And the property insurance, that's one that tends to sneak up on people. I mean the average premium annually is over 1300 bucks. Now that varies widely based on geography, property type, but just as a sort of a rough place holder, that's more than a hundred bucks a month that you need to factor in whenever you're shopping, so that you don't stretch too far. And too often as home buyers, you're well into the process, you've already signed the contract by the time you start shopping around for homeowners insurance, and that's where the potential for surprises can come into play.

Bobbi Rebell:
What other surprises are out there?

Greg McBride:
Well, there's the maintenance, the upkeep. I mean, when you own it, if it breaks, you got to fix it. There's no picking up the phone and calling the landlord to fix it. And so, it's those ongoing costs that really need to be factored in. I mean, we have found that Millennial home buyers, for example, almost two thirds of millennial home buyers have some regrets about their home purchase, and the top one was maintenance and the cost of home ownership. So, buying a house that is 20 years old means that you're kind of getting to that end of life cycle on a lot of the initial appliances, things like, you might be looking at a new roof within the next five to 10 years, depending on the type of construction market you live in, wear and tear, those kinds of things.

Greg McBride:
But these are the type of costs that you need to be mindful of going in and being able to budget for. Setting aside 2% of your home value every year as a budget for the inevitable maintenance and upkeep, factor that in from the beginning. And with prices going up, that's going to squeeze people's budgets even more, but that's also means that people buying older properties means they're going to face higher, and higher maintenance and upkeep costs as time goes on.

Greg’s Tips For Avoiding Red Flags

Greg McBride:
Do not skip the home inspection. Do not. People are doing that because the market's so hot and they're in competition to get this house. They've been outbid on other ones. And so, people tend to take shortcuts. And one of the shortcuts is people are... They're waving the inspection, that can really come back to bite you financially in a huge way. Do not skip the home inspection, because that home inspection, that's really what's going to tip you off. Not just the things that might need repair now before the sale takes place, but things that might be on the near term horizon, things you're going to have to factor in terms of, is this the right price for this house, given that I have these other upcoming costs?

Greg McBride:
And we talked about the appliances, that's sort of the 15, 20 year mark on a lot of appliances are 20 to 30 years on a roof, for example, some things are even shorter than that. If you're in Sun Belt states where you're running your air conditioner a lot, lifecycle of air conditioners could be five to seven years. So again, other costs that you need to factor in, be aware of and be setting money aside regularly, so that you are not in a pinch at the time when something breaks.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important to remember. I do want to circle back. We talked about the fact that people are moving out of generally places where they absolutely had to live previous to the pandemic for work into areas that may be more rural, maybe have more space, maybe have amenities that they couldn't have where they were living. If you are interested in buying in one of the places that is maybe less popular now, what advice do you have for buyers? I mean, is there a buyers market there at least for people, is this an opportunity for them?

Greg McBride:
Well, I wouldn't term it a buyer's market because there, you still suffer from this limited inventory of homes that are available for sale. Builders aren't able to build fast enough. The prices of new homes, newly constructed homes have also been bid up, but a lot of people, that's where they're looking. And, people are moving into newer areas, different zip codes. We talked about the homeowners insurance earlier, that could bring on some additional costs on the homeowners insurance. It may be a quote, "Local move, but changing zip codes could be enough to trigger a different pricing structure on the homeowners insurance."

Greg McBride:
It could be in a flood zone that necessitates having a separate flood insurance policy, for example. Really important to factor all those issues in, things that can impact, not just your property insurance, also the property taxes. Some states, the current owner, their increases in property taxes may have been protected by an amendment to kind of prevents them from being priced out of their home. So, what they're paying may have no bearing on what you were paying. And a lot of people, again, they don't find that out until after the fact, check with the local tax recording office to get a sense of what the property tax is going to be on that particular property before you sign them at that point.

Greg’s Tips For Finding The Best Resources

Bobbi Rebell:
What are the best resources for people? I know that Bankrate has tons of information for people. You just mentioned the local government, I guess. How do you do that? Is there a website? Do you know? Can you give us some guidance and other resources as well?

Greg McBride:
Again, it depend upon your locality, but look at your local city, state or county, tax recording office, that's where you're likely to find information on property tax rates, what the assessed value of homes are in a particular area. If there are any sort of homestead exemptions for new home buyers and what the process is for that. On homeowners insurance, comparison shop. Not every insurer charges the same price. And like I said, premiums have been going up, so puts even more urgency on that comparison shopping. Look at bundling your policies, your auto policy, your liability policy, putting that in with your homeowners insurance policy could be a way to reduce the total cost of all three of those. Look for potential discounts, do you have a security system? Even something like distance from a fire station or a fire hydrant can affect the premiums that you pay.

Greg McBride:
And then, shop around for your mortgage. This is another one where just a slight difference in rate could save you thousands of dollars. Shopping around can also save you thousands of dollars in fees. Not everybody charges the same price. That was one of the top regrets among new homeowners as well, is that the financing costs surprised them to the upside. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have done surveys in the past that show homeowners that shop around, that get additional quotes on their mortgage save thousands of dollars relative to those that did not. So, all of that critically important, doing that earlier in the process rather than later.

Follow Greg!

• Twitter - @BankrateGreg

• Website - www.bankrate.com/authors/greg-mcbride/

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• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And, you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code grownup for 15% off your first order, buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And, you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Greg McBride:
The novelty of that new home is going to wear off in a few years, the mortgage payments will not.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being thrown up is hard, but together we got this. Hello my grownup friends. We all know as we go through life, all those adulting milestones, things change. So, that was magnified recently during the pandemic, when it came to what so many of us wanted and needed in our homes. Subtly, it wasn't just where we lived, it was where we worked, it was where we socialized, it was our everything. That meant rethinking where we lived, how we lived. And for a lot of people, that meant moving to a home that fit new needs. So, I decided to call in one of my favorite financial grownup experts to give us the best tips for what we need to know, not just when we are looking to buy a home, but when we are deciding even if we should be, because maybe buying a home is not for us, even maybe not for us right now, maybe later, we'll see.

Bobbi Rebell:
But how do you know? Bankrate's Chief Financial Analyst, Greg McBride was one of my favorite people to interview when I was an anchor at Reuters. And, I was so glad I was able to get him on this podcast to walk us through what we need to know. Here is Greg McBride. Greg McBride, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Greg McBride:
Great to be with you, Bobbi. Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I asked you on as the chief financial analyst over at Bankrate, because I want you to share with us a lot of money tips that you have for our grownup audience on home buying, home ownership and so on. But as we get out of the pandemic, before we get to those tips, I'd love for you to give us a state of the housing market overview. How do things look right now, aspiring homeowners and for buyers and sellers in general?

Greg McBride:
The housing market is red hot. We haven't seen housing market this hot since the housing boom prior to the financial crisis. It is very much a sellers market. We are back to the days of bidding wars, people even doing things like buying homes, sight unseen. And, the reason is there's just a massive imbalance between demand and supply. Demand is really, really high. People have the flexibility to work from home. And so, geography matters a lot less. They don't necessarily need to live downtown in a metro area, they can move to the suburbs, they can move to another part of the country. People that have been working from home realize, "You know what?" "We probably need a different set up here if we're going to do this."

Greg McBride:
And so, that's driven a lot of demand for people moving, people moving up, or first time home buyers getting in the market. At the same time, the supply of homes available for sale, which was already a low coming into the pandemic has only gotten lower. It's now at a record low, so you see that massive imbalance between supply and demand, and that is driving a lot of what we're seeing prices have been going up at at a breakneck pace. So great time for sellers, but not so much for buyers.

Bobbi Rebell:
So the obvious question then, what are your best tips for aspiring home buyers?

Greg McBride:
Yeah, this is a market where I start to get concerned that there's the tendency to get swept up in the fervor, and then people stretch and stretch too far. I mean, people typically stretch when we buy a home anyway, but I think in an overheated market like this, you've got to be really wary because the competition is so heated. People might have a tendency to stretch a little too far. And so, don't buy a home based on your best case scenario, or assuming that your best income year is what is going to be status quo going forward. I mean, as we learned over the last 12 months, the economy goes through ebbs and flows, how a lot of households saw their incomes drop off very suddenly.

Greg McBride:
You need to plan for those types of contingencies and lead yourself plenty of financial breathing room. And look, the bottom line is for a lot of people, that might mean rethinking home ownership, not for good, but at least just for right now, given the overheated market and the tendency to stretch beyond what you can afford. The novelty of that new home is going to wear off in a few years, the mortgage payments will not, that's the thing to keep in mind.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. But also we tend to look at what the bank will approve us for. The base will say, "Here's how much we will give you a mortgage for," this is what you qualify for when they do pre-approvals, which is something that is a tip for everybody, make sure you do get pre-approved for mortgages. How do people gauge realistically what that number means in terms of figuring out, as you say, what's the stretch and what's the more conservative number?

Greg McBride:
Well, couple things. First that pre-approval amount, this is not the Wild Wild West, anything goes, days of 2005, 2006, 2007, where people were being approved for far more than they can afford to repay. Lending standards are much more sane now, if anything, lenders are eerie on the side of being conservative. The amount that people are getting approved for isn't sky high, relative to what they can actually afford.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are there tips for how to manage interest rates and lock-in rates in a sustainable way, and a deal that you're really going to actually get? Because sometimes, I know in the past I would just skim what the rates were, these teaser rates on the ads, and that's not always the rate that you're going to get.

Greg McBride:
The best rates out there are available for consumers and have credit scores of 740 and above. So, if you're in that neighborhood, you're going to score those great rates that are out there. But even if your credit scores, 700, 710, 720, you're still going to get a really good rate. It's if your credit score gets below 680, that's where lenders get a little bit more conservative. There's not as many lenders at the table and the offers aren't as good. And, I think that's where you really got to worry about biting off more than you can chew, in terms of the actual cost of the financing. Rates are still well below 3% and those are on 30-year fixed rate. Mortgage rates aren't going to price people out. It's the pricing, it's the lack of inventory of homes available for sale, those are going to be the real obstacles, not mortgage rates, at least for well qualified borrowers.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also brought some tips to mitigate surprises. What kind of surprises do new homeowners and aspiring homeowners need to be prepared for?

Greg McBride:
There are a lot of other costs that go beyond just that monthly principal and interest on the mortgage payment. You're going to have property taxes. You're going to have property insurance. And the property insurance, that's one that tends to sneak up on people. I mean the average premium annually is over 1300 bucks. Now that varies widely based on geography, property type, but just as a sort of a rough place holder, that's more than a hundred bucks a month that you need to factor in whenever you're shopping, so that you don't stretch too far. And too often as home buyers, you're well into the process, you've already signed the contract by the time you start shopping around for homeowners insurance, and that's where the potential for surprises can come into play.

Bobbi Rebell:
What other surprises are out there?

Greg McBride:
Well, there's the maintenance, the upkeep. I mean, when you own it, if it breaks, you got to fix it. There's no picking up the phone and calling the landlord to fix it. And so, it's those ongoing costs that really need to be factored in. I mean, we have found that Millennial home buyers, for example, almost two thirds of millennial home buyers have some regrets about their home purchase, and the top one was maintenance and the cost of home ownership. So, buying a house that is 20 years old means that you're kind of getting to that end of life cycle on a lot of the initial appliances, things like, you might be looking at a new roof within the next five to 10 years, depending on the type of construction market you live in, wear and tear, those kinds of things.

Greg McBride:
But these are the type of costs that you need to be mindful of going in and being able to budget for. Setting aside 2% of your home value every year as a budget for the inevitable maintenance and upkeep, factor that in from the beginning. And with prices going up, that's going to squeeze people's budgets even more, but that's also means that people buying older properties means they're going to face higher, and higher maintenance and upkeep costs as time goes on.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's interesting, so there's a tip there about 20 years, is the life cycle of a house in terms of maintenance of things. So, you need to go in and look for example at say the appliances and stuff, I mean, how do you manage that stuff? What are some things to look at when you're examining a home that are sort of red flags in terms of maintenance that's going need to be done sooner rather than later?

Greg McBride:
Do not skip the home inspection. Do not. People are doing that because the market's so hot and they're in competition to get this house. They've been outbid on other ones. And so, people tend to take shortcuts. And one of the shortcuts is people are... They're waving the inspection, that can really come back to bite you financially in a huge way. Do not skip the home inspection, because that home inspection, that's really what's going to tip you off. Not just the things that might need repair now before the sale takes place, but things that might be on the near term horizon, things you're going to have to factor in terms of, is this the right price for this house, given that I have these other upcoming costs?

Greg McBride:
And we talked about the appliances, that's sort of the 15, 20 year mark on a lot of appliances are 20 to 30 years on a roof, for example, some things are even shorter than that. If you're in Sun Belt states where you're running your air conditioner a lot, lifecycle of air conditioners could be five to seven years. So again, other costs that you need to factor in, be aware of and be setting money aside regularly, so that you are not in a pinch at the time when something breaks.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important to remember. I do want to circle back. We talked about the fact that people are moving out of generally places where they absolutely had to live previous to the pandemic for work into areas that may be more rural, maybe have more space, maybe have amenities that they couldn't have where they were living. If you are interested in buying in one of the places that is maybe less popular now, what advice do you have for buyers? I mean, is there a buyers market there at least for people, is this an opportunity for them?

Greg McBride:
Well, I wouldn't term it a buyer's market because there, you still suffer from this limited inventory of homes that are available for sale. Builders aren't able to build fast enough. The prices of new homes, newly constructed homes have also been bid up, but a lot of people, that's where they're looking. And, people are moving into newer areas, different zip codes. We talked about the homeowners insurance earlier, that could bring on some additional costs on the homeowners insurance. It may be a quote, "Local move, but changing zip codes could be enough to trigger a different pricing structure on the homeowners insurance."

Greg McBride:
It could be in a flood zone that necessitates having a separate flood insurance policy, for example. Really important to factor all those issues in, things that can impact, not just your property insurance, also the property taxes. Some states, the current owner, their increases in property taxes may have been protected by an amendment to kind of prevents them from being priced out of their home. So, what they're paying may have no bearing on what you were paying. And a lot of people, again, they don't find that out until after the fact, check with the local tax recording office to get a sense of what the property tax is going to be on that particular property before you sign them at that point.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that was going to be my next question, which was what are the best resources for people? I know that Bankrate has tons of information for people. You just mentioned the local government, I guess. How do you do that? Is there a website? Do you know? Can you give us some guidance and other resources as well?

Greg McBride:
Again, it depend upon your locality, but look at your local city, state or county, tax recording office, that's where you're likely to find information on property tax rates, what the assessed value of homes are in a particular area. If there are any sort of homestead exemptions for new home buyers and what the process is for that. On homeowners insurance, comparison shop. Not every insurer charges the same price. And like I said, premiums have been going up, so puts even more urgency on that comparison shopping. Look at bundling your policies, your auto policy, your liability policy, putting that in with your homeowners insurance policy could be a way to reduce the total cost of all three of those. Look for potential discounts, do you have a security system? Even something like distance from a fire station or a fire hydrant can affect the premiums that you pay.

Greg McBride:
And then, shop around for your mortgage. This is another one where just a slight difference in rate could save you thousands of dollars. Shopping around can also save you thousands of dollars in fees. Not everybody charges the same price. That was one of the top regrets among new homeowners as well, is that the financing costs surprised them to the upside. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have done surveys in the past that show homeowners that shop around, that get additional quotes on their mortgage save thousands of dollars relative to those that did not. So, all of that critically important, doing that earlier in the process rather than later.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much, Greg. I have owned multiple homes in my life and I just learned so much information from you. This has been amazing. Where can people keep up with you?

Greg McBride:
Bankrate.com. We have all this content we talked about. Shopping around for the insurance, shopping around for the mortgage, using our calculator to figure out how much you can afford, what fits in your budget. You can follow me on Twitter @BankrateGreg.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, much great info there. Here is a recap of some highlights. When it comes to the price that you pay for a home, don't get caught up in the FOMO and the hype, do not overextend yourself, be a little conservative. Pay attention to your credit score, the better the score, the better deal you will get on a mortgage. Don't wait until the end to price in homeowners insurance, know the cost early in the process, so you budget for it. With a home, you own it and it is going to be on you to get whatever needs fixing fixed. Maintenance is real for grown-up homeowners. Appliances have a life cycle, make sure you know the age of not just the kitchen appliances, but also things like air conditioning, things break. Your taxes could be higher than the current homeowner who may be grandfathered in to a lower rate, check with a primary source.

Bobbi Rebell:
Don't assume the real estate's information is fully up-to-date. And finally, look at bundling your insurance policies. Look for ways to get a discount. Even being near a fire station could be a factor that can work in your favor. Now to some podcasts housekeeping. First, how are you guys liking the new money tips format. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and let me know. Also, get out and celebrate life's milestones with your friends and families. We all need and deserve it. It's been a really hard year, plus make sure you get your gifts at grownupgear.com, and I will be eternally grateful for your business. As a special promotion, we are going to keep giving away $150 gift card to Grownup Gear each week to listeners until July 4th, which of course is Independence Day. Maybe we can also call it Financial Independence Day. There are two ways to enter to win.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, you can take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media and tag me @bobbirebell1. And then also, email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us again at hello@financialgrownup.com. Grownup Gear is what a lot of people call a micro business and we really do need and appreciate all of your support, so please check it out and tell your friends. And, thank you. Please share this podcast as well. Greg McBride was so amazing with all of his grownup advice, so thank you Greg, and the team by the way, at Bankrate for helping us all be financial grownup's.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com you can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips For Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me, so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts, reading each one means the world to me. And, you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Woman’s Day Editor-in-Chief Meaghan Murphy shares how her enthusiasm for things she loves turns into sales.  Plus tips for dealing with toxic bosses at work, why she loves coupons even more than ever, and a preview of her awesome new book "Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay."

Meaghan’s Money Tips

Bobbi Rebell:
For any doubters who don't see the connection between happiness, and a positive attitude, and success like, being really good at selling. There it is. There is a connection. Even though it comes so naturally to you Meaghan, that you don't see it. There is a huge connection. Let's get into some of the tips. So the first one that I want to talk about is how to deal with toxic bosses or colleagues?

Meaghan Murphy:
Avoid them as much as possible. Give and requests only much information as needed as to do your job. Keep things professional. Don't get sucked into that. I also say, ignore the bait and bite your tongue instead. I love Terri Cole. She has a new book coming out too called Boundary Boss, but she calls it being unprovokable. And I find being unprovokable and using that word as sort of a mantra, I'm unprovokable, I find it very empowering. So no matter what somebody spews at me, how somebody is trying to drag me down, I just don't fall for the bait. I bite my tongue and I smile and I don't fall for it. And I find it's very gratifying, right, to be unprovokable. I highly recommend that. I also say, always kill them with kindness. I'm always going to be kind. I'm always going to be generous.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm always going to be helpful. And even if there's a little piece of me that dies in the process, I am absolutely going to kill them with kindness. And I find that the haters often come around. And one of my favorite, like sort of Instagram bumper stickers is hustle until the haters ask, if you're hiring. This has happened to me quite often, where I've stayed above the fray. I haven't given them a lot of my brain space, or my energy, or my focus. I've sort of created this force field of positivity against that toxic energy. And eventually they soften up and they suddenly want to be my friend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And the next one actually ties into this very well. It's something you learned from Shonda Rhimes when you edited one of her interviews.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm obsessed with Shonda. I was the executive editor at Good Housekeeping at the time. And she was like, always have hard conversations ASAP. Don't wait for a good time. Right? We angst about when we're going to have this conversation, because we got to wait for the right time. We've got wait for that right moment. Well, guess what? That right moment never actually happens. And you've wasted energy and bandwidth angsting about when it's going to happen. Do it ASAP. Just have the hard conversation. And I've done that where like, I can feel my palms sweating. I can feel my voice shaking. I'm getting the sweats, but I am absolutely going to pick up the phone or walk into the office and have that really, really difficult conversation without hesitation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So easy to say, so hard to do. But I'm going to work on that. I know I've had a really hard time with that myself. You also say something that a lot of people have said the opposite. So I think our listeners are going to really benefit from hearing about this. You say respond to every email.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's super counterintuitive, right? Because doesn't that seem like a time suck? And I guess I should make the caveat, every email that the person... Like so if it's spam, they've spelled your name wrong, gotten the name of your publication wrong, that can be a delete. But if someone has taken the time to engage with you. If a publicist reaches out to me and say, oh, Meaghan, looks like you had a great time in St. Thomas from your Instagram. I've got this great pitch. I think it could be a fit for this section. They deserve a response. That's a kindness, that's a professional courtesy. And in so many instances where I've responded and said, you know what? This is not a fit for me. I'm going to keep it top of mind. Or I've exchanged some kind of a kindness of like that was a great pitch.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's not right for me. Maybe it's right for so-and-so over here. Did you think about that? I have benefited from those interactions in so many crazy ways where they're like, oh, you know what? You should know this person, or what about this or... Good things come to you when you're a good human being. It's this kindness networking boomerang. And I can't tell you how good it feels to walk through a trade show and be like, oh, that's Meaghan Murphy. She's the best. She always responds to email. She's so courteous and polite. It's a kindness that I will extend to anyone who makes a concerted effort to contact me.

Bobbi Rebell:
And these are people that you're basically saying no to, which is amazing.

Meaghan Murphy:
I kind of think of the world as like a Lite Brite board. Do you remember Lite Brite boards when you were a kid?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Meaghan Murphy:
And the more of those colorful pegs you put into the board, the clearer the picture gets, and eventually you have this bright, vibrant, interesting picture. To me I sort of look like people and connections and ideas as those pegs, those little lights. And the more I put in the board, the clearer the picture becomes, the more it lights up. And so I am never worried that if I introduce you to so-and-so, then somehow there's less work for me. Or if I connect to these two people, I'm going to be boxed out. Absolutely not. I assume that we all have our own secret sauce. We all shine in our own way. And my shine doesn't diminish yours and your shine doesn't diminish mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important. Because that's something that I have been so relieved about as I've embarked on my own journey, independent from corporate life. I was afraid that people wouldn't want to help me, but it's been just the opposite. I feel like so many people have been so kind and opened up doors. And hopefully I do just as much for other people. Because if you are secure in what you're doing and what you bring to the table, no one else is you. So there's nothing to fear.

Meaghan Murphy:
And here's the deal though. That's hard earned. I'm a 45 year old mother of three. Who's been at this for 25 years. Did I feel that way in my 20s? Probably not so much. Right. I was probably more protective of my ideas, and my successes, and my connections back in the day. I've learned my lesson. Right? I understand that we lift each other up and all the cliches, real queens fix each other's crowns. I do better when I'm lifting others up. And I find it always pays me back in unexpected ways. And so yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. Absolutely. Okay. I want to whip through a few quick hit, simple things that people can do. And these are examples. There are tons of these in your book. Number one, make your bed.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah. I wrote two pages about it in the book because 82% of people who make their bed feel more productive during the day. And it's a very simple task. That's the whole point of the book. It's a toolkit. And some of the tools are going to work for you and they're going to make you happier, and they're going to make you more productive, and they're going to make you more successful. And you can roll your eyes and not make your bed, but try it. Because 82% of people who do, feel more productive.

Bobbi Rebell:
The second one I want to point out, these are like the quick hits, dopamine dressing. I mean, I literally am wearing a pink scrunchie in my hair right now because it makes me happy.

Meaghan Murphy:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Even though no one else can see it. Dopamine dressing, talk about it.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's dressed the way you want to feel. I studied acting and I talk about it like, my clothes as a costume. Right. If I were going on stage playing a doctor, I'm not wearing a Fireman's uniform. So what's the life you want. We always say dress for the job you want. Dress for the life you want. Are you going to a funeral or a party? What does that look like?

Bobbi Rebell:
The pandemic, when so many of us are working from home, actually in a way gives us permission to really dress the way we want. We don't have to dress in the way that other people do because no one else can see you sometimes.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. This one, this is something my mom, who's no longer with us did in the late stages of her life. And so it really hit home for me. And I know it made her happy, is put fresh flowers in your house. I mean, she started doing a flower delivery where every week they would come. She had her fancy vases and she had a rotation going where they would take the old one and bring it back. And then bring another one back each week. So every day she would get them made in her vase. And it was such an important thing in those last years when she was ill.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's major. And that's the thing, it's not like, oh yeah, buying your flowers is nice, or it's frivolous, or... There's so much great research. There's great Harvard research that says, fresh flowers in your house actually have the power to ease anxiety, to boost your mood. So why not do that? And I joke about this. During the pandemic, I took a pair of scissors when you couldn't get flowers anywhere. And it was full lockdown mode. And I walked over the park and I cut some daffodils because I was like, my mood is for (beep). I'm struggling. I'm crying in the shower. You know what's going to make me feel better in this moment? Those daffodils on my kitchen table.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. The last one, this is something my great aunt Mae told me to do, Meaghan. She's no longer with us, but it really helped me. I was going through a divorce and I had to do live updates from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. She would tell me no matter what's going on in your head, physically smile, just force a smile.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yep. It's like when people tell you to stand up straight and then suddenly you roll your shoulders back and down. Like smile right now. Everybody listening, just smile. It changes the way you feel. Facial feedback research suggests that there is absolutely this two-way street between your facial expressions and your emotions. And the second you crack that smile, fake it till you make it. It does send signals to your brain. Like, okay, today's not so bad.

Bobbi Rebell:
The crazy thing is, it works. And I say that to my son all the time when he gets frustrated because he's been doing a ton of remote learning. And I don't know if learning should really be in that phrase actually, having been,

Meaghan Murphy:
I hear you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Doing this for over a year. But it's a little bit frustrating for kids. And I think that can really have a really great effect on them as well. All right. I want to do one last money tip, which is just coming from you as a mom. You are still into the coupons.

Meaghan Murphy:
I really am a coupon queen. I miss actually cutting them out of the Sunday circular and going to the shop, right, with my coupons. Ed, my favorite cashier, he's like, where's all your coupons? I don' have the physical paper coupons anymore. Because now everything is an app. But things like RetailMeNot, my grocery store app where I can just scan it and get that bonus. I love saving money so that I could spend it on things I actually might want. I don't need to spend an extra 59 cents on bananas. I would rather put my phone number or my store code and save 30 cents. Because that 30 cents adds up. Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it really does. And that could get you to the fresh flowers that you want. So absolutely. And the truth is, even though there's probably a satisfaction and I remember my mother sitting at the table cutting her coupons, getting ready to go to the store with her box. She had a box and then she would organize which ones she was then going to use that day. And she was aware of the double coupons and the triple coupon days.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
The truth is that even though that tangible experience is gone for most of us, there is still that thrill of seeing the number go down when things are being rung up.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my God. It's so good. Even when I use my Target card and it's like 5% back, and then I get the bill under 200 bucks, I'm like, yes.

Follow Meaghan!

• Instagram - @meaghanbmurphy

• Facebook - @meaghan.b.murphy

• Twitter - @meaghanbmurphy

• Website - https://meaghanbmurphy.com/

• Book - https://meaghanbmurphy.com/book/

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Meaghan Murphy:
I got excited about this santa cake and was literally like, oh my God, everyone look at this. And so everyone in line bought one.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Time to smile my grownup friends. Money may not buy you happiness, but happiness can get you very far when it comes to making money. This week's guest literally leverages her happiness into success. You can't help but love this woman the minute you meet her, even if it is virtual. Meaghan Murphy is the editor in chief of Women's Day, which is the number one selling magazine on news stands. And one of the hosts of the Off the Gram podcast. She is also the author of the new book, Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
If she sounds familiar that's because you see you're on all the morning shows. Plus all those great shows like Live with Kelly & Ryan. She is a home hack master, a lifestyle and health expert. Oh. And she works out like a pro because yes, one more thing. She is a certified trainer. She also has lots of children and a husband and so much going on. But we got her here on the podcast to talk to us about how to put yay into our life. And of course, some incredible money tips. Here is Meaghan Murphy. Meaghan Murphy, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. I love that you're saying yay. That's like your anthem as the author of Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay. A lot of people will look at this book and they'll say like, oh, that's not me. I'm not wired that way. She's so chipper. She just walks around saying, yay. By the way, people can't see you, but you have lightning bolts on your clothing. But honestly, if somebody met you earlier in life, that's not who you were. Give us some context for this because you weren't always the yay person.

Meaghan Murphy:
After some tragic teen years, I did write a very powerful essay that earned me a scholarship and a national TV spot, which ultimately led to an internship at YM Magazine and ultimately springboarded a magazine career. And so in my 20s, when I was working at Cosmopolitan Magazine, I was assigned by my boss to write a story called the seven secrets of happiness. And I completely rolled my eyes because I'm like, who wants to read this crap? But I was the senior editor at Cosmopolitan and this was my assignment when I started to delve into the research and I started to look at the field of positive psychology. And I looked at the work of Martin Seligman who sort of the godfather of positive psychology. And it was the first time that I sort of had this epiphany that happiness wasn't this like bumper sticker, static (beep) thing that you either were or weren't, but it was actually an active state of being, and there were things you can do.

Meaghan Murphy:
There were choices you could make on a daily basis to move the happiness needle. And maybe it might be better and feel better and to live that way. And so I started to dabble in optimism. I started to dabble in living differently. And that's really when the seeds of a fully charged life were planted. And the beautiful thing about prioritizing positivity and sort of actively choosing happiness is that it really started to build and spiral till it becomes easier to do. And it becomes, comes the default, right? And you don't have to work so hard at it. So today, I mean, my friends joke, I'm like a fricking rainbow unicorn. But that's years and years of practice later and kind of rewiring my brain for optimism and joy.

Bobbi Rebell:
That optimism and joy, even though you're not even conscious about it, does translate into so much success in things that are connected to money. So for example, you talk about in the book that you were online at an ice cream store and you were so enthusiastic about a santa cake that you basically became the de facto salesperson for this little ice cream store that was selling ice cream cakes, and you started selling santa cakes for them.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm an evangelist for things I love. If I get excited about something I want everyone else to get excited about. So I probably should have some type of sales career because I would crush it. I got excited about this santa cake and was literally like, oh my God, everyone look at this. And so everyone in line bought one.

Bobbi Rebell:
For any doubters who don't see the connection between happiness, and a positive attitude, and success like, being really good at selling. There it is. There is a connection. Even though it comes so naturally to you Meaghan, that you don't see it. There is a huge connection. Let's get into some of the tips. So the first one that I want to talk about is how to deal with toxic bosses or colleagues?

Meaghan Murphy:
Avoid them as much as possible. Give and requests only much information as needed as to do your job. Keep things professional. Don't get sucked into that. I also say, ignore the bait and bite your tongue instead. I love Terri Cole. She has a new book coming out too called Boundary Boss, but she calls it being unprovokable. And I find being unprovokable and using that word as sort of a mantra, I'm unprovokable, I find it very empowering. So no matter what somebody spews at me, how somebody is trying to drag me down, I just don't fall for the bait. I bite my tongue and I smile and I don't fall for it. And I find it's very gratifying, right, to be unprovokable. I highly recommend that. I also say, always kill them with kindness. I'm always going to be kind. I'm always going to be generous.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm always going to be helpful. And even if there's a little piece of me that dies in the process, I am absolutely going to kill them with kindness. And I find that the haters often come around. And one of my favorite, like sort of Instagram bumper stickers is hustle until the haters ask, if you're hiring. This has happened to me quite often, where I've stayed above the fray. I haven't given them a lot of my brain space, or my energy, or my focus. I've sort of created this force field of positivity against that toxic energy. And eventually they soften up and they suddenly want to be my friend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And the next one actually ties into this very well. It's something you learned from Shonda Rhimes when you edited one of her interviews.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm obsessed with Shonda. I was the executive editor at Good Housekeeping at the time. And she was like, always have hard conversations ASAP. Don't wait for a good time. Right? We angst about when we're going to have this conversation, because we got to wait for the right time. We've got wait for that right moment. Well, guess what? That right moment never actually happens. And you've wasted energy and bandwidth angsting about when it's going to happen. Do it ASAP. Just have the hard conversation. And I've done that where like, I can feel my palms sweating. I can feel my voice shaking. I'm getting the sweats, but I am absolutely going to pick up the phone or walk into the office and have that really, really difficult conversation without hesitation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So easy to say, so hard to do. But I'm going to work on that. I know I've had a really hard time with that myself. You also say something that a lot of people have said the opposite. So I think our listeners are going to really benefit from hearing about this. You say respond to every email.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's super counterintuitive, right? Because doesn't that seem like a time suck? And I guess I should make the caveat, every email that the person... Like so if it's spam, they've spelled your name wrong, gotten the name of your publication wrong, that can be a delete. But if someone has taken the time to engage with you. If a publicist reaches out to me and say, oh, Meaghan, looks like you had a great time in St. Thomas from your Instagram. I've got this great pitch. I think it could be a fit for this section. They deserve a response. That's a kindness, that's a professional courtesy. And in so many instances where I've responded and said, you know what? This is not a fit for me. I'm going to keep it top of mind. Or I've exchanged some kind of a kindness of like that was a great pitch.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's not right for me. Maybe it's right for so-and-so over here. Did you think about that? I have benefited from those interactions in so many crazy ways where they're like, oh, you know what? You should know this person, or what about this or... Good things come to you when you're a good human being. It's this kindness networking boomerang. And I can't tell you how good it feels to walk through a trade show and be like, oh, that's Meaghan Murphy. She's the best. She always responds to email. She's so courteous and polite. It's a kindness that I will extend to anyone who makes a concerted effort to contact me.

Bobbi Rebell:
And these are people that you're basically saying no to, which is amazing.

Meaghan Murphy:
I kind of think of the world as like a Lite Brite board. Do you remember Lite Brite boards when you were a kid?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Meaghan Murphy:
And the more of those colorful pegs you put into the board, the clearer the picture gets, and eventually you have this bright, vibrant, interesting picture. To me I sort of look like people and connections and ideas as those pegs, those little lights. And the more I put in the board, the clearer the picture becomes, the more it lights up. And so I am never worried that if I introduce you to so-and-so, then somehow there's less work for me. Or if I connect to these two people, I'm going to be boxed out. Absolutely not. I assume that we all have our own secret sauce. We all shine in our own way. And my shine doesn't diminish yours and your shine doesn't diminish mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important. Because that's something that I have been so relieved about as I've embarked on my own journey, independent from corporate life. I was afraid that people wouldn't want to help me, but it's been just the opposite. I feel like so many people have been so kind and opened up doors. And hopefully I do just as much for other people. Because if you are secure in what you're doing and what you bring to the table, no one else is you. So there's nothing to fear.

Meaghan Murphy:
And here's the deal though. That's hard earned. I'm a 45 year old mother of three. Who's been at this for 25 years. Did I feel that way in my 20s? Probably not so much. Right. I was probably more protective of my ideas, and my successes, and my connections back in the day. I've learned my lesson. Right? I understand that we lift each other up and all the cliches, real queens fix each other's crowns. I do better when I'm lifting others up. And I find it always pays me back in unexpected ways. And so yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. Absolutely. Okay. I want to whip through a few quick hit, simple things that people can do. And these are examples. There are tons of these in your book. Number one, make your bed.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah. I wrote two pages about it in the book because 82% of people who make their bed feel more productive during the day. And it's a very simple task. That's the whole point of the book. It's a toolkit. And some of the tools are going to work for you and they're going to make you happier, and they're going to make you more productive, and they're going to make you more successful. And you can roll your eyes and not make your bed, but try it. Because 82% of people who do, feel more productive.

Bobbi Rebell:
The second one I want to point out, these are like the quick hits, dopamine dressing. I mean, I literally am wearing a pink scrunchie in my hair right now because it makes me happy.

Meaghan Murphy:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Even though no one else can see it. Dopamine dressing, talk about it.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's dressed the way you want to feel. I studied acting and I talk about it like, my clothes as a costume. Right. If I were going on stage playing a doctor, I'm not wearing a Fireman's uniform. So what's the life you want. We always say dress for the job you want. Dress for the life you want. Are you going to a funeral or a party? What does that look like?

Bobbi Rebell:
The pandemic, when so many of us are working from home, actually in a way gives us permission to really dress the way we want. We don't have to dress in the way that other people do because no one else can see you sometimes.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. This one, this is something my mom, who's no longer with us did in the late stages of her life. And so it really hit home for me. And I know it made her happy, is put fresh flowers in your house. I mean, she started doing a flower delivery where every week they would come. She had her fancy vases and she had a rotation going where they would take the old one and bring it back. And then bring another one back each week. So every day she would get them made in her vase. And it was such an important thing in those last years when she was ill.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's major. And that's the thing, it's not like, oh yeah, buying your flowers is nice, or it's frivolous, or... There's so much great research. There's great Harvard research that says, fresh flowers in your house actually have the power to ease anxiety, to boost your mood. So why not do that? And I joke about this. During the pandemic, I took a pair of scissors when you couldn't get flowers anywhere. And it was full lockdown mode. And I walked over the park and I cut some daffodils because I was like, my mood is for (beep). I'm struggling. I'm crying in the shower. You know what's going to make me feel better in this moment? Those daffodils on my kitchen table.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. The last one, this is something my great aunt Mae told me to do, Meaghan. She's no longer with us, but it really helped me. I was going through a divorce and I had to do live updates from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. She would tell me no matter what's going on in your head, physically smile, just force a smile.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yep. It's like when people tell you to stand up straight and then suddenly you roll your shoulders back and down. Like smile right now. Everybody listening, just smile. It changes the way you feel. Facial feedback research suggests that there is absolutely this two-way street between your facial expressions and your emotions. And the second you crack that smile, fake it till you make it. It does send signals to your brain. Like, okay, today's not so bad.

Bobbi Rebell:
The crazy thing is, it works. And I say that to my son all the time when he gets frustrated because he's been doing a ton of remote learning. And I don't know if learning should really be in that phrase actually, having been,

Meaghan Murphy:
I hear you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Doing this for over a year. But it's a little bit frustrating for kids. And I think that can really have a really great effect on them as well. All right. I want to do one last money tip, which is just coming from you as a mom. You are still into the coupons.

Meaghan Murphy:
I really am a coupon queen. I miss actually cutting them out of the Sunday circular and going to the shop, right, with my coupons. Ed, my favorite cashier, he's like, where's all your coupons? I don' have the physical paper coupons anymore. Because now everything is an app. But things like RetailMeNot, my grocery store app where I can just scan it and get that bonus. I love saving money so that I could spend it on things I actually might want. I don't need to spend an extra 59 cents on bananas. I would rather put my phone number or my store code and save 30 cents. Because that 30 cents adds up. Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it really does. And that could get you to the fresh flowers that you want. So absolutely. And the truth is, even though there's probably a satisfaction and I remember my mother sitting at the table cutting her coupons, getting ready to go to the store with her box. She had a box and then she would organize which ones she was then going to use that day. And she was aware of the double coupons and the triple coupon days.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
The truth is that even though that tangible experience is gone for most of us, there is still that thrill of seeing the number go down when things are being rung up.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my God. It's so good. Even when I use my Target card and it's like 5% back, and then I get the bill under 200 bucks, I'm like, yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about where people can reach you and your podcast and all your other projects.

Meaghan Murphy:
Sure. So I am on Instagram. I'm pretty busy. Meghan B Murphy, M-E-A-G-H-A-N, B Murphy. I have a podcast called Off the Gram with a bunch of wellness influencers. That's wherever podcasts are not sold, but listened to, I guess. And I'm also the editor in chief of Woman's Day Magazine. So it's a top selling magazine on newsstands. I think we have 18 million readers. So that's a pretty fun thing to pick up too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. That's kind of huge. But yeah, most people would lead with that one, but you have so much going on. I can't thank you enough for stopping by. This is such a gift to our listeners. So thank you so much, Meaghan.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my gosh. I so enjoyed you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm grateful.

Bobbi Rebell:
Good stuff, right? She was great. Let's go over some of the tips that we learned from Meaghan. First, be an evangelist for things you love. They will literally sell themselves. If you have a toxic boss at work, do not fall for the bait. Be generous with introductions. Don't worry that there will be less for you. Things work out for those who give proactively and generously. And of course, yay for coupons.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So now I have a question for all of you. What are you happy about these days? What are you celebrating? I am looking forward to a lot of in-person get togethers as things open up. And I'm always looking for the perfect gift, which is one reason I created grownupgear.com. So if you haven't checked it out yet, please take a look. We have the perfect gift for all of those adulting moments that we celebrate from graduations to engagements, bridal showers, new homes, birthdays, all the good things.

Bobbi Rebell:
As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to Grownup Gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. Can also think of it as financial independence day if that motivates you. There are two ways to enter, take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media and tag me @bobbirebell1. That's on Instagram, I should say. And then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review on the Money Tips for Financial Grownups Podcast on Apple podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. Grownup Gear is what I like to call a micro business and we really do need and appreciate all of your support. So please check it out and tell your friends. And thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note. I hope you guys smiled a lot listening to this episode. I loved interviewing Meaghan. She's the best. So big thanks to Meaghan Murphy. Don't forget to check out her book for cheering us all on and yay for all of you financial grownups. Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram. And Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Flame Newton is turning his criminal past success in identity theft to educate and empower others. The author and credit expert shares his money tips on credit cards, protecting your identity and much more to help us all be financial grownups.

Flame’s Money Story

Aw man. I always take a deep breath before I do that, because anytime I get into this area, I like to make sure it's detailed. I like to make sure that you understand it and it's clear. That I misinterpret nothing that I've said or going to say, or getting ready to say. And that was, I was the bad guy, right? I went to jail for murder and I went to jail for bank robbery. Right. That's what I went to jail for. What I did was I rob people and I killed them while they were still living. And they have a term for it and have a word for it. That word is called identity thief. I went to prison for a very long time based upon that, right? Because I did something in the eyes of the government they never seen, heard, or even done before.

Flame Newton:
And I know you got all misjudgments about me right now, as you listening to this. But I like to make sure that you hear it right out of the horse's mouth, as they say. What I did was wrong, wrong to the utmost. But when the government said I did was I only stole people identities that had a 600 credit score or below. So not the 700 or higher that everyone was so in love with. What I did was, is I was able to clean their credit up and then attach it to a business to go get money from. Now, although that my method was wrong, the process wasn't. And so I ended up going to prison. And while I was there, there were guys that was there and they was always talking to me. And they would say the same thing like you was talking about earlier Bobbi. You know what they would say to me? Man, I sure wish they would've taught me credit in school.

Flame Newton:
That got me to thinking. A lot of these people that are in prison contrary to your belief, are there for monetary value. And what does that mean? The reason that they was there was for something pertaining to money and you can say, well, he killed him. He killed him because he was trying to get some money. Somebody owed him some money, some type of relevance to it. He there for robbery. Robbing somebody to get some money. Say he there for drugs. Selling drugs to get some money. And you start to add these things up. What they don't know is pretty much what we talked about earlier. The fact that stuff was not talked about in heavily populated areas. And so being understand of that magnitude, I'm able to teach.

Flame Newton:
And one of the biggest compliments that I've ever getting is when a kid had asked me one time, I'm sitting in prison and he asked me, he said, Flame, could you read this to me? Read. And the word was tomorrow. Couldn't believe it. See things that we take for granted, these things really weigh down on other people like, reading.

Flame Newton:
Now, although that he could tell you about 28 grams is 28 grams. And understanding the ounces and because he's dealing with drugs all day. And he learned the numbers in that magnitude, even count money all day long pertaining to it. But he didn't know the magnitude of things like reading. And I said, what if you read something that you like? And so when we get into these type of components pertaining to it, I'm understanding, and I make sure that on every single platform that I've ever been on, will never be one that I would never say the words that I'm apologetic on all get up for every single thing and every victim that I've ever affected. I make sure of that. I don't hesitate that. But with that being said, along this life, we have journeys and this was just one of mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you actually go to jail for?

Flame Newton:
I went to jail for identity theft, money laundering, and bank fraud. So what I did was I took people’s identity, attach it to a business and went in and got a lot of money from it. What I was doing was cleaning up the negative items to make them appear as more trustworthy than they actually were, getting the banks to give out money to that particular person. That was when I would go get the money and take off in that manner. Money that they didn't even know that it existed from the people that I took the identities from.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow, that's really scary.

Flame Newton:
Over 75% of the American public, that once they fall in debt, they go back into debt within the two to three year window. Why? Because they have not been educated about it. So the more that they can get educated about something pertaining to what fuel, I'm just talking about credit.

Flame’s Money Lesson

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you actually go to jail for?

Flame Newton:
I went to jail for identity theft, money laundering, and bank fraud. So what I did was I took people, identity, attach it to a business and went in and got a lot of money from it. What I was doing was cleaning up the negative items to make them appear as more trustworthy than they actually were, getting the banks to give out money to that particular person. That was when I would go get the money and take off in that manner. Money that they didn't even know that it existed from the people that I took the identities from.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow, that's really scary.

Flame Newton:
Over 75% of the American public, that once they fall in debt, they go back into debt within the two to three year window. Why? Because they have not been educated about it. So the more that they can get educated about something pertaining to what fuel, I'm just talking about credit.

Flame’s Money Tip

Flame Newton:
And the tip that I'm going to give you for this is watch this. You pull out your credit card right now. I need everybody to pull out your credit card. If you driving just keep driving, don't do it while you driving. But right now I want you to pull out your credit card. If the front doesn't match the back, that card is whack. If the front says Chase, the back of your card must say Chase. But if the front of your card, now I love Victoria Secret. Victoria Secret, we love you too. But if your front of your card says, Victoria Secret and the back of your card says Synchrony Bank, that's not a great quality credit card. You like bank issued credit cards.

Bobbi Rebell:
Why? Tell us why.

Flame Newton:
Because That is a quality lender. And a quality lender meaning that that point, that bank have gave you money. They didn't give you goods or services for money. I like to explain it in this way. Like Home Depot. Home Depot has a great company. I love Home Depot to death. But if Home Depot gives you let's say, a $2,000 line of credit and you go buy refrigerator for a $1,000. If you buy a refrigerator for a $1,000, that refrigerator might've cost Home Depot $200. So if it cost Home Depot $200, that means you paid one fifth of the price of that. So if you didn't pay back Home Depot that thousand, lets say you didn't pay them back. What was the loss to Home Depot? Was the loss $1,000 or was it $200? The bank issue is going to lose more so the risk is going to be higher, which makes it a more quality card.

Follow Flame!

• Instagram - @flamenewton

• Facebook - @followflame1127

• Flame’s website - http://flamenewton.com

• Flame’s Book - The School of Credit

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Flame Newton:
You know what they would say to me? Man, I sure wish they would've taught me credit in school. And that got me to thinking. A lot of these people that are in prison contrary to your belief, are there for monetary value. And what does that mean? The reason that they was there was for something pertaining to money. And you can say, well, he killed him. He killed him because he was trying to get some money. Somebody owed him some money, some type of relevance to it. He there for robbery, robbing somebody to get some money. Say he there for drugs, he selling drugs to get some money.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grown up is hard, but together we got this. Hey friends, this is going to be a very different and a very important episode. Normally we talk a lot about things like staying out of debt, and financial literacy, and the consequences of not doing those things of not knowing what's going on with your money. But what about financial literacy to stay out of prison, to not commit crimes? That is what my guest Flame Newton wanted to talk about. He spent about a decade of his life serving time for identity theft. And head a lot from fellow prisoners about why they were there. And in almost every case, Flame says the crime was tied to money in some way. It brings the importance of financial literacy to a whole new level.

Bobbi Rebell:
This man has a lot to say that makes sense, but you have to pay close attention. So this is an episode you really want to be present for. I hope all of you get as much out of this interview as I did. It is really, really good. Here is school of credits, Flame Newton. Flame Newton, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Flame Newton:
Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for being here. And by the way, we connected on Clubhouse. So you're my first Clubhouse find. So I'm so excited because you have the most amazing backstory and you have incredible advice. I do a little homework on my guests Flame, and this was on your Facebook page and it's very appropriate to our grownup audience. You say the phrase I get tired of hearing is, "They didn't teach us this when we were growing up. News flash, you grown up now. So you better learn it. Or this thing called life will teach you." Tell me more about that and your general philosophy. And then we're going to get into more about you.

Flame Newton:
Wow, Bobbi. One thing that I can say pertaining to that, we listened to a lot of people in a different manner of ways. And one of the ways that as a collective group of individuals, they coming together and they always have this quite saying. And that saying is, man, they didn't teach me this when I grew up. Right? And so all of these things amongst that, or my parents didn't teach me this. And they'll say all of these different things, but what we must know and what we must understand is that at this point, this world is not the world that we had it when we grew up. It's not. And that's something that we have to come to grips on, is the fact that now we in a position now to creatively get information from all walks of life.

Flame Newton:
I mean, even think about our children now, right? And our children, they have friends all over this globe. All right. And it's all based upon the technology that we have in advance. So pertaining to just utilizing the school system, getting the school system to teach us things. Right. Or even passing judgment down to our parents who actually never taught as well. And when you start to base it upon that, now you start to say, you know what? Now it's up to me. Why? Because now I'm kind of adapted to what my children are doing. What is that? I'm adapted to the globe because they have this thing and it starts with www. And when you say www, let's let it be understood and what it is. It's called the world wide web, right? The first word tells you everything, the world. And so you can get different perspectives pertaining to the information that you don't know from people that are all over the globe, all over America.

Flame Newton:
So if you're looking for information pertaining to something that can make you better, you have these places. And they're a lot of free places. And we can talk about them. Places like Google. And I understand Google have a lot of bad information and misinformation, but there's also some good ones there too. So let's not discredit those. They also have places like YouTube, even the social media networks like Facebook, or even going down to where you got me at, which was Clubhouse, right? And a collective group of these places that have pertaining to a lot of this information, we just have to buckle down and get it into a point to where we got to find out what matters to us most. What we're going to quit doing, is we're going to quit making up excuses and bringing up the past as a reason for why we're not moving towards the future.

Bobbi Rebell:
I totally agree. Could not agree more. And we could talk about this all day, but I want our listeners to learn more about you and your backstory. Because you are highly intelligent and you are a student for sure. And unfortunately earlier in your life, you use that for some, well, some things you went to prison for. Tell us more about that.

Flame Newton:
Aw man. I always take a deep breath before I do that, because anytime I get into this area, I like to make sure it's detailed. I like to make sure that you understand it and it's clear. That I misinterpret nothing that I've said or going to say, or getting ready to say. And that was, I was the bad guy, right? I went to jail for murder and I went to jail for bank robbery. Right. That's what I went to jail for. What I did was I rob people and I killed them while they were still living. And they have a term for it and have a word for it. That word is called identity thief. I went to prison for a very long time based upon that, right? Because I did something in the eyes of the government they never seen, heard, or even done before.

Flame Newton:
And I know you got all misjudgments about me right now, as you listening to this. But I like to make sure that you hear it right out of the horse's mouth, as they say. What I did was wrong, wrong to the utmost. But when the government said I did was I only stole people identities that had a 600 credit score or below. So not the 700 or higher that everyone was so in love with. What I did was, is I was able to clean their credit up and then attach it to a business to go get money from. Now, although that my method was wrong, the process wasn't. And so I ended up going to prison. And while I was there, there were guys that was there and they was always talking to me. And they would say the same thing like you was talking about earlier Bobbi. You know what they would say to me? Man, I sure wish they would've taught me credit in school.

Flame Newton:
That got me to thinking. A lot of these people that are in prison contrary to your belief, are there for monetary value. And what does that mean? The reason that they was there was for something pertaining to money and you can say, well, he killed him. He killed him because he was trying to get some money. Somebody owed him some money, some type of relevance to it. He there for robbery. Robbing somebody to get some money. Say he there for drugs. Selling drugs to get some money. And you start to add these things up. What they don't know is pretty much what we talked about earlier. The fact that stuff was not talked about in heavily populated areas. And so being understand of that magnitude, I'm able to teach.

Flame Newton:
And one of the biggest compliments that I've ever getting is when a kid had asked me one time, I'm sitting in prison and he asked me, he said, Flame, could you read this to me? Read. And the word was tomorrow. Couldn't believe it. See things that we take for granted, these things really weigh down on other people like, reading.

Flame Newton:
Now, although that he could tell you about 28 grams is 28 grams. And understanding the ounces and because he's dealing with drugs all day. And he learned the numbers in that magnitude, even count money all day long pertaining to it. But he didn't know the magnitude of things like reading. And I said, what if you read something that you like? And so when we get into these type of components pertaining to it, I'm understanding, and I make sure that on every single platform that I've ever been on, will never be one that I would never say the words that I'm apologetic on all get up for every single thing and every victim that I've ever affected. I make sure of that. I don't hesitate that. But with that being said, along this life, we have journeys and this was just one of mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you actually go to jail for?

Flame Newton:
I went to jail for identity theft, money laundering, and bank fraud. So what I did was I took people, identity, attach it to a business and went in and got a lot of money from it. What I was doing was cleaning up the negative items to make them appear as more trustworthy than they actually were, getting the banks to give out money to that particular person. That was when I would go get the money and take off in that manner. Money that they didn't even know that it existed from the people that I took the identities from.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow, that's really scary.

Flame Newton:
Over 75% of the American public, that once they fall in debt, they go back into debt within the two to three year window. Why? Because they have not been educated about it. So the more that they can get educated about something pertaining to what fuel, I'm just talking about credit.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is one thing people can look at and boost that score?

Flame Newton:
It's not your score. So let's leave that right there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh okay.

Flame Newton:
And I'm going to come back. I got you Bobbi. Watch this. Watch this Bobbi. I got you. I want you to be concerned with the contents which is on your credit profile. Again, the items that are on your credit profile, I want you to take heed to those items that are there, understanding that they have these things call quality lenders. Right. Quality lenders. These lenders are considered measurements. They're considered the high's to the high. Now the Bank of America's, the Wells Fargo's, the Chase's, Capital One's, the Cities, Barclays, even the US banks. You have some of those quality lenders that are on your profile.

Flame Newton:
And the tip that I'm going to give you for this is watch this. You pull out your credit card right now. I need everybody to pull out your credit card. If you driving just keep driving, don't do it while you driving. But right now I want you to pull out your credit card. If the front doesn't match the back, that card is whack. If the front says Chase, the back of your card must say Chase. But if the front of your card, now I love Victoria Secret. Victoria Secret, we love you too. But if your front of your card says, Victoria Secret and the back of your card says Synchrony Bank, that's not a great quality credit card. You like bank issued credit cards.

Bobbi Rebell:
Why? Tell us why.

Flame Newton:
Because That is a quality lender. And a quality lender meaning that that point, that bank have gave you money. They didn't give you goods or services for money. I like to explain it in this way. Like Home Depot. Home Depot has a great company. I love Home Depot to death. But if Home Depot gives you let's say, a $2,000 line of credit and you go buy refrigerator for a $1,000. If you buy a refrigerator for a $1,000, that refrigerator might've cost Home Depot $200. So if it cost Home Depot $200, that means you paid one fifth of the price of that. So if you didn't pay back Home Depot that thousand, lets say you didn't pay them back. What was the loss to Home Depot? Was the loss $1,000 or was it $200? The bank issue is going to lose more so the risk is going to be higher, which makes it a more quality card. That make any sense?

Bobbi Rebell:
It makes total sense. And I have never seen that argument frame that way and I'm processing it. And I'm going to keep thinking about it because you make a really interesting point. I want to get to where people can find you. I know you have a lot of amazing resources. I can't believe you created this in only a little over a year since you've been out. But tell us more about where people can find you and how they can learn from all that you have to offer?

Flame Newton:
Great. I appreciate it. One is I have a book which is called The School of Credit: Learn and Mastered the 12 Levels of the American Credit System, which is on Amazon. Definitely, that is something that I want you to go tap into. It's a great foundation. This is one of the books that goes down with the greats. When I'm saying greats, I'm saying the greatest books of all times, such as the Webster's dictionary, such as the encyclopedias, and those sort of ordeal. So it's in a different caliber. Also, you can find me, you can reach out to me at flame@flamenewton.com. Again, that is flame@flamenewton.com. I'm always on Clubhouse. You can find me on social media sites. I been away from Instagram. I'm starting to get over there now. Also, Facebook, all under Flame Newton. And other than that, man, listen, when you see me, man, I stop, I talk, I laugh. We joke. We kick it. We have fun. This a good time. You know what I mean? Or if not, we're going to figure out how to make it a good time. Other than that, appreciate that Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. And people want to know Flame, your real name?

Flame Newton:
Flame Newton.

Bobbi Rebell:
Given by your mother. Really? That's amazing. Love it. All right. Thank you so much.

Flame Newton:
I mean, I appreciate you having me on this podcast. I'm excited for the people that are just getting started on their credit journey. I'm appreciative of people that are trying to overcome something and don't feel like they can overcome it. I'm excited for you by Bobbi and the podcast, to see which direction that it's going to grow. I do appreciate you. And I thank you. And I'm humbled on all levels.

Bobbi Rebell:
There's a lot here, but here's some things that stood out to me. Stop making excuses and saying, so-and-so, didn't teach you. Well, if you're a grown up, go out and educate yourself. In the past, you could say you didn't have access to information. Well now, as Flame points out, we do have information. We have the internet. You have to be careful. There is misinformation out there, but you can, and you need to get educated and take responsibility for it yourself. Flame also doesn't like store credit cards. Well, the basic premise is that they have less to lose if you default. His feeling, is that their validation of your credit worthiness may not have the same high bar as a bank credit card. It's an interesting theory and something we should think about. Flame also warrants that the majority of people are repeat offenders when it comes to getting into debt. So if that is you, stop the cycle.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing you should definitely not do is go into debt buying presents for friends and loved ones this season. There's a lot of celebrations coming up. I get it. But please check out the affordable gifts on my website, grownupgear.com. And as a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 credit card to grown up gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. And maybe we can also call it financial independence day. There are two ways to enter to win. Take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, Instagram specifically. And tag me @bobbirebell1. And then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. Big thanks to Flame Newton for sharing so generously with us and helping us all be financial grownups

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grown-ups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

It is wedding season! To celebrate we talked to Sarah Miller and Nichole Holmes of the show that asks the engaged to jointly make a big choice: A solid starter home- or a lifetime of memories with loved ones at a big wedding. The choice may seem simple- but if you listen you will see it is both financial and emotional. 

Sarah and Nichole’s Money Story

Bobbi Rebell:
I did my homework. You were both cast on the show. So you did not come up with the original concept. What was it like when they first came to you, and they came to you individually with this concept? What was your gut reaction?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. I loved it. I honestly thought it was fake at first. I was like, "Am I getting scammed? What's going on here?" Because I've never been on TV or any of that stuff before. So it was surreal to me. But yeah, after they really pitched it to me, I loved it. It's just what I do every single day just with cameras added to it. So I signed on immediately. I loved it.

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole, and I was on board from the get-go. It was such a great idea. I was a little hesitant, not knowing how they would edit you and things like that, but I am blown away with the editing skills and how amazing the show looks. I'm super excited about all of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
This show teaches so many financial lessons, budgeting, making tough financial choices, money, values. What is your money script, a lot of people would say? Tell us about what you've learned in listening to all of the people on the show that makes you think, how have you guys evolved through all of this?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. So I think it's just, you have to listen to your clients. I mean, this is something again that Nichole and I both do in every day life. So we're trying to fill somebody's dreams and trying to expand their budgets and really give them the utopia of what they're looking for. So I think with the show, the biggest part was us listening to really what was important to them and trying to bring that to reality so they could actually have a hard time choosing either the house or the wedding.

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole. It just reminded me about when I was younger and didn't make the smartest financial decisions because we have some fairly young couples on the show that did choose wedding, and I just saw myself in their eyes. I get it because I was given the option when I was getting married the first time. My dad said, "Are you sure that you don't want to take this chunk of money and put it on a down payment on a home or have two really nice cars in the driveway?" or whatever, and I was like, "No, Daddy, I have to have my big day." So now twice divorced and 47 years old, and now that I'm in real estate, I just cringe at how much money I could have made had I actually put it down on an asset rather than just a day.

Bobbi Rebell:
You guys both bring a lot of life experience to the show, and one thing that I love is that you don't judge. Nichole, you just talked about your own life experiences, your own really important money story. And yet you hold back a little, you give them some room. Is that hard? What's that like?

Nichole Holmes:
I want them to do the smartest thing financially that I think is the smartest, and then we've got Sarah thinking they need to invest in these memories. And so I always say this in almost every interview, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." So all I can do is present the best package possible, show them the best houses, hit all of their top wishes and wants, and hope that they make a sound investment in land or a house.

Sarah Miller:
Nichole doesn't hold back, by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're both really good about managing expectations. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because many of these couples have really saved up for many years, these amounts of money, which are generally about $30,000, that is their life savings. And yet they can't always get their dream wedding or their dream house when they're realistic about you can't get everything. You guys are good at that. Tell us a little bit about that and the psychology of managing expectations from a financial perspective.

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. Again, I think it's just all about smart money and dumb money, especially when you're planning a wedding. It's like, listen, put your money where it's going to shine the most, what's most important to you. Let's highlight those areas and scale back on the rest. Because, again, coming into wedding planning, if they only have a small amount of budget allocated to this, then we have to figure out what to do with it. If they put a chose a house and a wedding, they wouldn't be our clients right now. It's one or the other. So we have to make sure that we can maximize it in the right way that makes sense for where they're at in their life at that moment.

Nichole Holmes:
Right. And as a real estate agent, I have to listen to what's most important. There's no such thing as a perfect house, and you're never going to find that dream home, when you're on a budget, I should say. You can find it if you're not on a budget. But if you're working with a budget, I just have to take what's most important to them, just like Sarah said she does with the weddings. And if it's a yard that they want it, if it's the extra bedroom so they can have an at home office or the right school system, all of that goes into play and you just have to let them know that, "The list that you gave me isn't possible. I will show you on paper. Here is the house that you're talking about," and show them how much money that is and how much over budget. So then they get it. And it's, again, exactly what you said, it's managing their expectations.

Bobbi Rebell:
You've both been in your field for a substantial amount of time. Nichole, you've been in real estate, I think, full time, for more than a decade. And Sarah, you're about the same, so what's up. But you also have seen the social media evolution and how that has influenced people's expectations. Tell me more about that. I mean, I think we had a donut wall in an episode. And to be fair, you have the wedding shows, but you also have these home shows where people have these dream shows. I mean, really, how has that changed people's expectations in terms of what they prioritize and how far their money will go?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. I think on the show, we did a really good job with keeping in with our budgets. Again, we're not trying to over, I guess, over, what's the word, over show them anything that they really can't afford.

Nichole Holmes:
Over sell them.

Sarah Miller:
Over sell them, yeah exactly. We're trying to meet their expectations, but expanding those areas that were really important to them. So when you refer to the donut wall with that one couple, they wanted something unique that would run through social media. That's their era, their age. They were all about a show-stopping conversation piece at their wedding. So that's where that came in. But, again, I feel like the show in households nowadays helps viewers know that there are certain things that they can't afford. They just need to be open-minded about the other areas if they want their specific things.

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah, and this is Nichole. So when people are house shopping, they do a lot of it online now. So it's a good thing and a bad thing to a realtor.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah.

Nichole Holmes:
Because a lot of those websites that they go to, they aren't updated, and so they think that these homes are available and the market is so hot right now in middle Tennessee and Davidson County, specifically, houses are on the markets for hours and then they get snatched up. And so it's making our jobs as realtors a little bit harder because they will send you this list and you're like, "Well, stick with the list I sent you, because this is what's available. Whatever you're sending me and you're finding, you don't have access to the present, the real time houses." So that can get a little bit tricky.

Bobbi Rebell:
So the show was filmed before the pandemic. And, of course, some of the weddings were affected by the pandemic. A lot's changed, so you're still in touch with a lot of the couples that you worked with. Tell me what's been going on with them. Have there been regrets? Have there been, "Oh, I'm so glad I made that choice because of the pandemic and how I feel now"?

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah. From a real estate side, they're thrilled because housing prices are still going up.

Sarah Miller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nichole Holmes:
They already equity in their home and they've been in for less than a year or about a year at this point. So I don't have any of my couples that chose house that are upset with their decision.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah, this is Sarah. Same thing on the wedding side. I think, again, the pandemic had a lot to do with wedding changes and stress and all of that stuff, but all the weddings from the show, they actually did go through, they just had to shift around a little bit. So, but yeah, I think everybody had an amazing time, and no matter if it was eight people to 100 people.

Sarah and Nichole’s Money Lesson

Bobbi Rebell:
What lessons have you guys learned in this whole process about money and psychology and the emotion of it and the practicality of it?

Nichole Holmes:
I think we learned more negotiating skills-

Sarah Miller:
Than anything.

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah, and it's judging the couples and what's important to them when we make our final pitches at the end of the show. You can see in their eyes, like when Sarah mentioned the donut wall was going to get thrown in, that boy's eyes lit up. He couldn't have been happier had she offered him a million dollars, I think. He was just so thrilled he was going to get the donut wall.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah, we were just talking how amazing of a concept it is. It's so funny because, when I'm planning weddings every single day, the clients aren't saying, "Oh, well, I don't know if I can plan my wedding because we're about to choose a house." So this is great that we actually have to battle for this and really try to figure out what's really important to them and what they want to choose.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because when people see the title, the logical intellectual one goes, "Of course, you would choose a house." But we're not wired that way as humans necessarily.

Sarah Miller:
I agree, and I love that. I get a lot of flack for being the wedding planner. They're like, "How could you? What are you doing?" I'm like, "Listen, love is love. It is what it is." If people didn't choose wedding, it wouldn't be a show.

Sarah and Nichole’s Money Tips

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole. So I think it's super important to find a seasoned realtor that knows what they're doing and who has closed a lot of deals, because the negotiations can get intense, especially in a heated market, like it is now. And a good realtor can negotiate and literally save their clients thousands and thousands of dollars by the time it's all said and done.

Bobbi Rebell:
So work with a human, and one that's the right fit for you?

Nichole Holmes:
Oh absolutely. The fun part is finding the house and that's easy. It's after you write the contract and get to the closing table that everything can go sideways. And it does a lot of the time. So you need someone who is seasoned and knows what they're doing to keep everything on track and going in the right direction.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sarah, what's your money tip?

Sarah Miller:
I dido Nichole's thing that she said as well. Hire a professional first. Hire a wedding planner, because going into planning a wedding, number one, you have to have a budget in mind. Number two, hiring a professional is going to save you countless hours over research and time. So if you can start with that and then also jump into it and talk about like your most important parts. Talk about smart money and dumb money. Put your money where you really want it to shine and scale back on those other things.

Follow Sarah!

• Instagram - @southernvineco

• Sarah’s website - https://southernvineco.com

Follow Nichole!

• Instagram - @nicholeholmesrealty

• Nichole’s website -

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, T's, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code "grownup" for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Nichole Holmes:
When Sarah mentioned the donut wall was going to get thrown in, that boy's eyes lit up. He couldn't have been happier had she offered him a million dollars, I think. He was just so thrilled he was going to get the donut wall.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips For Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this. Hello, my grownup friends. So as you heard in that cold open, Instagram worthy, show's stopping, sounds like, a donut wall at a wedding are a big part of what makes the Netflix series, Marriage or Mortgage, binge-worthy TV. And if you don't know what a donut wall is, well, go do that quick visit to Instagram. It'll tell you all you need to know. On each episode of Marriage or Mortgage, a couple with a limited budget, usually around $30,000, meets with each of the show's hosts, wedding planner, Sarah Miller, and realtor, Nichole Holmes, who show them what each option would look like within their budget. And yes, it is a contest and, yes, the hosts are competitive. They are out to win over the couple who have to make a choice.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the two hosts pull all kinds of stunts from customizing and staging homes in very personalized and eccentric ways to, yes, donut walls for weddings. And by the way, that was a big thing for that guy. Anyway, beneath all the icing on the cakes, Marriage or Mortgage actually has a very serious financial learning premise. What would you do if you literally could either have a home to start your married life in or a wedding where you have all your friends and family celebrating a huge adulting milestone in your life and creating a lifetime of memories, especially after this year that we've had, when we really treasure those memories? Gut reaction among you guys, I bet it's probably the house. That was my knee-jerk reaction too, but take a step back and think about how our culture has evolved.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about all that talk about experiences over stuff? Isn't a wedding where all the people you care about and love share an incredible experience? Isn't that important. And home is not always the best investment, let's face it. And in fact, many people don't want to own a home and renting has become a popular choice. Home ownership, by the way, can have a lot of hidden financial unwelcome surprises. So you see? It does get a little complicated, and there are definite parts of the show that reflect a weird experiment in behavioral economics. Can you tell I love this show? On that note, here are the hosts, Sarah Miller and Nichole Holmes. Sarah Miller, Nichole Holmes, you are both financial grownups. Welcome to the podcast.

Nichole Holmes:
Thank you so much for having us.

Sarah Miller:
We're so excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
This is such a gift for me because I am a super fan of both of you and your Netflix hit show, Marriage or Mortgage. First of all, congratulations on all the success and the buzz this is getting.

Nichole Holmes:
Thank you so much.

Sarah Miller:
We love it. We love it. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
I did my homework. You were both cast on the show. So you did not come up with the original concept. What was it like when they first came to you, and they came to you individually with this concept? What was your gut reaction?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. I loved it. I honestly thought it was fake at first. I was like, "Am I getting scammed? What's going on here?" Because I've never been on TV or any of that stuff before. So it was surreal to me. But yeah, after they really pitched it to me, I loved it. It's just what I do every single day just with cameras added to it. So I signed on immediately. I loved it.

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole, and I was on board from the get-go. It was such a great idea. I was a little hesitant, not knowing how they would edit you and things like that, but I am blown away with the editing skills and how amazing the show looks. I'm super excited about all of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
This show teaches so many financial lessons, budgeting, making tough financial choices, money, values. What is your money script, a lot of people would say? Tell us about what you've learned in listening to all of the people on the show that makes you think, how have you guys evolved through all of this?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. So I think it's just, you have to listen to your clients. I mean, this is something again that Nichole and I both do in every day life. So we're trying to fill somebody's dreams and trying to expand their budgets and really give them the utopia of what they're looking for. So I think with the show, the biggest part was us listening to really what was important to them and trying to bring that to reality so they could actually have a hard time choosing either the house or the wedding.

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole. It just reminded me about when I was younger and didn't make the smartest financial decisions because we have some fairly young couples on the show that did choose wedding, and I just saw myself in their eyes. I get it because I was given the option when I was getting married the first time. My dad said, "Are you sure that you don't want to take this chunk of money and put it on a down payment on a home or have two really nice cars in the driveway?" or whatever, and I was like, "No, Daddy, I have to have my big day." So now twice divorced and 47 years old, and now that I'm in real estate, I just cringe at how much money I could have made had I actually put it down on an asset rather than just a day.

Bobbi Rebell:
You guys both bring a lot of life experience to the show, and one thing that I love is that you don't judge. Nichole, you just talked about your own life experiences, your own really important money story. And yet you hold back a little, you give them some room. Is that hard? What's that like?

Nichole Holmes:
I want them to do the smartest thing financially that I think is the smartest, and then we've got Sarah thinking they need to invest in these memories. And so I always say this in almost every interview, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." So all I can do is present the best package possible, show them the best houses, hit all of their top wishes and wants, and hope that they make a sound investment in land or a house.

Sarah Miller:
Nichole doesn't hold back, by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're both really good about managing expectations. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because many of these couples have really saved up for many years, these amounts of money, which are generally about $30,000, that is their life savings. And yet they can't always get their dream wedding or their dream house when they're realistic about you can't get everything. You guys are good at that. Tell us a little bit about that and the psychology of managing expectations from a financial perspective.

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. Again, I think it's just all about smart money and dumb money, especially when you're planning a wedding. It's like, listen, put your money where it's going to shine the most, what's most important to you. Let's highlight those areas and scale back on the rest. Because, again, coming into wedding planning, if they only have a small amount of budget allocated to this, then we have to figure out what to do with it. If they put a chose a house and a wedding, they wouldn't be our clients right now. It's one or the other. So we have to make sure that we can maximize it in the right way that makes sense for where they're at in their life at that moment.

Nichole Holmes:
Right. And as a real estate agent, I have to listen to what's most important. There's no such thing as a perfect house, and you're never going to find that dream home, when you're on a budget, I should say. You can find it if you're not on a budget. But if you're working with a budget, I just have to take what's most important to them, just like Sarah said she does with the weddings. And if it's a yard that they want it, if it's the extra bedroom so they can have an at home office or the right school system, all of that goes into play and you just have to let them know that, "The list that you gave me isn't possible. I will show you on paper. Here is the house that you're talking about," and show them how much money that is and how much over budget. So then they get it. And it's, again, exactly what you said, it's managing their expectations.

Bobbi Rebell:
You've both been in your field for a substantial amount of time. Nichole, you've been in real estate, I think, full time, for more than a decade. And Sarah, you're about the same, so what's up. But you also have seen the social media evolution and how that has influenced people's expectations. Tell me more about that. I mean, I think we had a donut wall in an episode. And to be fair, you have the wedding shows, but you also have these home shows where people have these dream shows. I mean, really, how has that changed people's expectations in terms of what they prioritize and how far their money will go?

Sarah Miller:
This is Sarah. I think on the show, we did a really good job with keeping in with our budgets. Again, we're not trying to over, I guess, over, what's the word, over show them anything that they really can't afford.

Nichole Holmes:
Over sell them.

Sarah Miller:
Over sell them, yeah exactly. We're trying to meet their expectations, but expanding those areas that were really important to them. So when you refer to the donut wall with that one couple, they wanted something unique that would run through social media. That's their era, their age. They were all about a show-stopping conversation piece at their wedding. So that's where that came in. But, again, I feel like the show in households nowadays helps viewers know that there are certain things that they can't afford. They just need to be open-minded about the other areas if they want their specific things.

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah, and this is Nichole. So when people are house shopping, they do a lot of it online now. So it's a good thing and a bad thing to a realtor.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah.

Nichole Holmes:
Because a lot of those websites that they go to, they aren't updated, and so they think that these homes are available and the market is so hot right now in middle Tennessee and Davidson County, specifically, houses are on the markets for hours and then they get snatched up. And so it's making our jobs as realtors a little bit harder because they will send you this list and you're like, "Well, stick with the list I sent you, because this is what's available. Whatever you're sending me and you're finding, you don't have access to the present, the real time houses." So that can get a little bit tricky.

Bobbi Rebell:
So the show was filmed before the pandemic. And, of course, some of the weddings were affected by the pandemic. A lot's changed, so you're still in touch with a lot of the couples that you worked with. Tell me what's been going on with them. Have there been regrets? Have there been, "Oh, I'm so glad I made that choice because of the pandemic and how I feel now"?

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah. From a real estate side, they're thrilled because housing prices are still going up.

Sarah Miller:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nichole Holmes:
They already equity in their home and they've been in for less than a year or about a year at this point. So I don't have any of my couples that chose house that are upset with their decision.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah, this is Sarah. Same thing on the wedding side. I think, again, the pandemic had a lot to do with wedding changes and stress and all of that stuff, but all the weddings from the show, they actually did go through, they just had to shift around a little bit. So, but yeah, I think everybody had an amazing time, and no matter if it was eight people to 100 people.

Bobbi Rebell:
What lessons have you guys learned in this whole process about money and psychology and the emotion of it and the practicality of it?

Nichole Holmes:
I think we learned more negotiating skills-

Sarah Miller:
Than anything.

Nichole Holmes:
Yeah, and it's judging the couples and what's important to them when we make our final pitches at the end of the show. You can see in their eyes, like when Sarah mentioned the donut wall was going to get thrown in, that boy's eyes lit up. He couldn't have been happier had she offered him a million dollars, I think. He was just so thrilled he was going to get the donut wall.

Sarah Miller:
Yeah, we were just talking how amazing of a concept it is. It's so funny because, when I'm planning weddings every single day, the clients aren't saying, "Oh, well, I don't know if I can plan my wedding because we're about to choose a house." So this is great that we actually have to battle for this and really try to figure out what's really important to them and what they want to choose.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because when people see the title, the logical intellectual one goes, "Of course, you would choose a house." But we're not wired that way as humans necessarily.

Sarah Miller:
I agree, and I love that. I get a lot of flack for being the wedding planner. They're like, "How could you? What are you doing?" I'm like, "Listen, love is love. It is what it is." If people didn't choose wedding, it wouldn't be a show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. You each brought a money tip for our financial grownup listeners. Who wants to go first?

Nichole Holmes:
Nichole will.

Sarah Miller:
Good.

Nichole Holmes:
This is Nichole. So I think it's super important to find a seasoned realtor that knows what they're doing and who has closed a lot of deals, because the negotiations can get intense, especially in a heated market, like it is now. And a good realtor can negotiate and literally save their clients thousands and thousands of dollars by the time it's all said and done.

Bobbi Rebell:
So work with a human, and one that's the right fit for you?

Nichole Holmes:
Oh absolutely. The fun part is finding the house and that's easy. It's after you write the contract and get to the closing table that everything can go sideways. And it does a lot of the time. So you need someone who is seasoned and knows what they're doing to keep everything on track and going in the right direction.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sarah, what's your money tip?

Sarah Miller:
I dido Nichole's thing that she said as well. Hire a professional first. Hire a wedding planner, because going into planning a wedding, number one, you have to have a budget in mind. Number two, hiring a professional is going to save you countless hours over research and time. So if you can start with that and then also jump into it and talk about like your most important parts. Talk about smart money and dumb money. Put your money where you really want it to shine and scale back on those other things.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said. You guys are wonderful. I am waiting, waiting, waiting, and hoping for a season two. In the meantime, where can our listeners catch up with you and see what's going on in the meantime?

Sarah Miller:
Yeah. Hey, this is Sarah. And on Instagram, it is Southern Fine Co. We have a website as well, which is just SouthernFineCo.com.

Nichole Holmes:
And I am on Instagram. This is Nichole, and it's Nichole Holmes Realty. And it's Nichole with an H, N-I-C-H-O-L-E H-O-L-M-E-S Realty.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, ladies. It's been such a pleasure to have both of you. Thank you so much. Continued success, and I hope to have you back celebrating season two very soon.

Nichole Holmes:
Us too. Thank you.

Sarah Miller:
Thank you guys. It was so fun.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friend, let's review some of the tips from the ladies and that we learned from the show. Budgets sometimes can't budge, so sharpen your negotiating skills. The hosts often go to bat for their clients, getting creative deals from vendors and getting home sellers to cut the price when they can. You should always pay people fairly, of course, but there's nothing wrong with advocating for yourself, or frankly, for your clients on everything you can. There are also times when you should not DIY, and that is especially true when there are large sums of money involved. That includes large events and homes. Don't make assumptions about what is right for you at a given stage in life. Don't get FOMO and don't let other people change your mind. Think for yourself. Take the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
As the show contestants do, actually look at the options and really talk it out with people that you care about. And if you look back and feel that you've made the wrong choice, well, you know what? Life goes on. Just like Nichole now has a sense of humor about her two weddings and how she wishes that she had taken the money and used it for something else. The truth is, every time we make a decision about where to allocate money, it is also not going somewhere else. Hopefully, we make the right decision more often than we make the wrong one. But forgive yourself and just move on if you mess up, because we all do. It is part of being a grownup, come on. Another part, celebrating life's grownup milestones. I hope people check out grownupgear.com when you are gift shopping this spring. It's perfect stuff for at graduations, birthdays, engagements, new parents, new home, all the good things.

Bobbi Rebell:
And as a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to Grownup Gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. And maybe we can also call it Financial Independence Day. There are two ways to enter to win. Number one, take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, and tag me at BobbiRebell1. Also, email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips For Financial Grownups Podcast on Apple Podcasts, take a screenshot, and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And my close friends and my relatives, by the way, you guys, not eligible. Sorry. Big thanks to Nichole Holmes and Sarah Miller of Netflix's Marriage or Mortgage for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips For Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

The newest star of the hit Bravo series shares specific tips on where to spend your money to get maximum impact in everything from real estate to your career wardrobe. Plus: how they filmed a reality tv series during a pandemic. 

Kirsten’s Money Tips:

Kirsten Jordan:
What I learned the most over the last year and a half is that it's very easy as a working mom to just bulk up on childcare and not bulk up on help anywhere else. And just think that you need to get more childcare so that you can work longer hours and work harder and just be further stretched and be crankier and angrier. And just you have that be your MO, which we've all been there. What I realized as soon as I actually had somebody helping me in the office and actually helping me with the backend of my business, that's when I realized that I don't need to be the one touching everything and doing everything.

Kirsten Jordan:
And why did I wait 12 years to get help at work. That made me be able to leverage myself into the areas that I really enjoy the most and that bring me the most money per hour. But also it made me a lot happier at home because I wasn't focusing on the stuff I didn't like doing. And I think this is a very benign, so elementary basic thing for people who are not entrepreneurs but I think it's very easy when you're an entrepreneur to be like, "I'm going to save money and not hire extra help. I'm just going to think about my bottom line," when it's very hard to scale, virtually impossible to scale, if you're not ready to embrace having some actual help at work as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
That makes so much sense. And people forget, in addition to childcare, you could get someone and it sounds almost luxurious, but to get a personal assistant to do all those errands and maybe then you have less childcare and spend that time with your kids, right.

Kirsten Jordan:
Right. And I have three kids. So for me, it's always the constant struggle. It's trying to figure out how to not only spend more time with my kids but be present when I'm with them, which is one of my main objectives in every area of my life. It is making sure that I am present in whatever I'm doing. So, if it's a podcast, if it's being with my kids, if it's being with clients, if it's meeting a new prospect, it is you get my undivided attention. Then when I'm done with it, I walk away and I'm done with it. The only way to do that, in my opinion, at least at my age, with the amount of kids I have and the amount of stuff I have going on is to get as much stuff off my plate that is not the highest and best use of my time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us a real estate tip that everyone can use.

Kirsten Jordan:
Throughout the country, we are in a sellers market. In order to be able to get any sort of opportunity, pretty much it means being flexible and knowing how much you can spend and how high you can bid. And making sure you evaluate the taxes on the property, your mortgage and what that's going to look like so you really understand what your monthly number is going to be. Because if you find something you really like, it's probably going to be going over the asking price or go to closed bids very, very quickly. So, the key is being ultra prepared when you go to see a property and understanding what you can spend, what that looks like on a monthly basis, speaking to a mortgage broker and being ready to take the advice of the real estate agent as to where to come in.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of young people, instead of starting their jobs in person have started their jobs at home in sweats behind a Zoom camera. And now they're going to go out into the world. Share some tips on how people can present their best selves as we reemerge into the office spaces. Assuming we do, which I think we will, at least to some degree.

Kirsten Jordan:
I completely agree with you. I've been in person with people since June 22nd. So, I have continued to hold myself together and dress up, which I even did during quarantine. I would say it breaks down to three tips. The number one tip is get a uniform for yourself in the sense that you have an idea of what your look is and how you can rotate that. I think people call that a capsule wardrobe. Whatever it is, for me, it's colored blazers. I wear a lot of different colored blazers every day with different kinds of looks. Whether it's a skirt or it's a pair of pants but that's my staple and it makes it really easy for me get out of the house in the morning and feel put together.

Kirsten Jordan:
The second thing is making sure that you have a routine around making sure that you're ready or have an idea of what you're going to wear the next day. It's super cliche but this idea of laying out your clothes like the way that I do with my kids, I think that that saves a lot of time and it really guarantees that you're going to have a nice look every day because spending a ton of time, preparing yourself in the morning is a waste of time because it can be really simplified. And if you stick with looking at the weather the night before, just pulling out an outfit that you plan on wearing and being ready to pull yourself together to get out the door, I think that's super important. And it cuts back on the time that you can spend with this idea of, or the burden of looking really nice every day.

Kirsten Jordan:
And the third thing is making sure that you are dressing for your audience. In New York as a real estate agent, dressing for downtown is different then dressing for uptown. Without over-analyzing it, I do adjust what I'm wearing based on what I have going that day.

Kirsten Jordan:
So, it is really important to value that and remember that people that spend time with you, they can't help but want to have some sort of aspiration about hanging out with you. And that's something I always have believed. I have clients who say to me, "I just love the fact that every single time you show up, you look nice. That's really important because I feel like you'll represent my property better because you're so put together." And you know what? That is something that I've gotten used to doing every single day since I was 10 years old. And it has gotten me really, really far. You just can't discount it.

Follow Kirsten!

• LinkedIn

• YouTube

• Instagram - @kirsten.jordan

• Facebook - @kirstenjordanfarsura

• Kirsten’s website - https://kirstenjordan.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
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Bobbi Rebell:
I have clients who say to me, "I just love the fact that every single time you show up, you look nice. That's really important because I feel like you'll represent my property better because you're so put together." And you know what? That is something that I've gotten used to doing every single day since I was 10 years old and it has gotten me really, really far. You just can't discount it.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome everyone to, Money Tips for Financial Grownups. This week's guest said what some people might not like to hear but is so true in grownup land. How you present absolutely matters. It can make all the difference, frankly, when it comes to how successful you are in life. That is just one of the no BS money tips that Kirsten Jordan, the new breakout star of Million Dollar Listing New York on Bravo shares in our interview.

Bobbi Rebell:
A reminder, we have deconstructed the podcast just a bit. So, the conversation is more free flowing and you get maximum money tips. Listen for the sound throughout the episode and you'll get what I mean. All right, let's talk about Kirsten Jordan. Her day job is selling extremely expensive real estate at Douglas Element in Manhattan. But just before the pandemic, she joined the cast of Bravo's Million Dollar Listing New York. We talk about what it was like to film during the pandemic and her secrets to getting all those lucrative real estate deals. So many of you loved our episode with her co-star Ryan Serhant, you will adore Kirsten, AKA, KJ as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here is Kirsten Jordan.

Bobbi Rebell:
Kirsten Jordan, you're a financial grownup. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.

Kirsten Jordan:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Million Dollar Listing New York, just debuted. How exciting is this after filming in a pandemic all this time in secret?

Kirsten Jordan:
It has been a roller coaster because I started filming in the beginning of 2020. So, it was January of 2020. And here we are in May of 2021 and it's finally aired. We weren't allowed to film. So, everything was home footage. Then when we started up again at the end of July, there was major protocols in place to even start doing that. So, it was really just a very jarring stop. And then it was, you know, we're going to take a bunch of footage because I think we all were taking footage of our homes in general. And there's no secret about that.

Kirsten Jordan:
All of us were taking footage just because it was fun and interesting to record history. And then of course that was something that potentially could have been used. And then it got started again and it just hit the ground running when the real estate market wasn't really up and running fully yet in the sense that we were allowed to show but we weren't really... People weren't back and ready yet. They were really just not focused on real estate yet. They were just like, "Wow, I can't believe things are open again. Is it really safe to come see an apartment?"

Bobbi Rebell:
It's almost like this is really going to be a behind the scenes documentary of a two layer thing. It's what was happening in real estate but also what happens on a reality TV show when a pandemic hits.

Kirsten Jordan:
Right. And we weren't the only show that tried to figure out ways to be able to get footage during COVID. A lot of those shows have closed sets or able to shoot during a very specific time period where clearly, because ours is truly reality of following us around and seeing what properties we're pitching and we're selling, it's just much, much more complicated.

Bobbi Rebell:
The thing I love about you is you have already, before the show, you have a huge presence giving very no BS tips about the real estate market. We're going to get to those in just a minute but I want to hear what tips you picked up from your co-stars on the show when filming Million Dollar Listing New York.

Kirsten Jordan:
What you learned from the other cast members is they have been doing it longer than I have and they're very successful. I would say that I've learned how to be able to take it with a grain of salt and be able to have tension with them because I think we all are really competitive. And so, for me in the beginning, the hardest part was the fact that we all are going to be competing with each other because we do overlap anyway. That's just how the nature of the business is. This is a competitive industry. And so, I have a lot of tension with Tyler, a lot of tension with Frederick and you see that on the show. And I think for me, that was the first time I had something like this, where it's normal to have this in the industry but then this idea of like, "Oh, wow. And then everybody's watching." It took me a little bit to get used to.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, tell me what tips do you have for our grownup listeners?

Kirsten Jordan:
What I learned the most over the last year and a half is that it's very easy as a working mom to just bulk up on childcare and not bulk up on help anywhere else. And just think that you need to get more childcare so that you can work longer hours and work harder and just be further stretched and be crankier and angrier. And just you have that be your MO, which we've all been there. What I realized as soon as I actually had somebody helping me in the office and actually helping me with the backend of my business, that's when I realized that I don't need to be the one touching everything and doing everything.

Kirsten Jordan:
And why did I wait 12 years to get help at work. That made me be able to leverage myself into the areas that I really enjoy the most and that bring me the most money per hour. But also it made me a lot happier at home because I wasn't focusing on the stuff I didn't like doing. And I think this is a very benign, so elementary basic thing for people who are not entrepreneurs but I think it's very easy when you're an entrepreneur to be like, "I'm going to save money and not hire extra help. I'm just going to think about my bottom line," when it's very hard to scale, virtually impossible to scale, if you're not ready to embrace having some actual help at work as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
That makes so much sense. And people forget, in addition to childcare, you could get someone and it sounds almost luxurious, but to get a personal assistant to do all those errands and maybe then you have less childcare and spend that time with your kids, right.

Kirsten Jordan:
Right. And I have three kids. So for me, it's always the constant struggle. It's trying to figure out how to not only spend more time with my kids but be present when I'm with them, which is one of my main objectives in every area of my life. It is making sure that I am present in whatever I'm doing. So, if it's a podcast, if it's being with my kids, if it's being with clients, if it's meeting a new prospect, it is you get my undivided attention. Then when I'm done with it, I walk away and I'm done with it. The only way to do that, in my opinion, at least at my age, with the amount of kids I have and the amount of stuff I have going on is to get as much stuff off my plate that is not the highest and best use of my time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us a real estate tip that everyone can use.

Kirsten Jordan:
Throughout the country, we are in a sellers market. In order to be able to get any sort of opportunity, pretty much it means being flexible and knowing how much you can spend and how high you can bid. And making sure you evaluate the taxes on the property, your mortgage and what that's going to look like so you really understand what your monthly number is going to be. Because if you find something you really like, it's probably going to be going over the asking price or go to closed bids very, very quickly. So, the key is being ultra prepared when you go to see a property and understanding what you can spend, what that looks like on a monthly basis, speaking to a mortgage broker and being ready to take the advice of the real estate agent as to where to come in.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of young people, instead of starting their jobs in person have started their jobs at home in sweats behind a Zoom camera. And now they're going to go out into the world. Share some tips on how people can present their best selves as we reemerge into the office spaces. Assuming we do, which I think we will, at least to some degree.

Kirsten Jordan:
I completely agree with you. I've been in person with people since June 22nd. So, I have continued to hold myself together and dress up, which I even did during quarantine. I would say it breaks down to three tips. The number one tip is get a uniform for yourself in the sense that you have an idea of what your look is and how you can rotate that. I think people call that a capsule wardrobe. Whatever it is, for me, it's colored blazers. I wear a lot of different colored blazers every day with different kinds of looks. Whether it's a skirt or it's a pair of pants but that's my staple and it makes it really easy for me get out of the house in the morning and feel put together.

Kirsten Jordan:
The second thing is making sure that you have a routine around making sure that you're ready or have an idea of what you're going to wear the next day. It's super cliche but this idea of laying out your clothes like the way that I do with my kids, I think that that saves a lot of time and it really guarantees that you're going to have a nice look every day because spending a ton of time, preparing yourself in the morning is a waste of time because it can be really simplified. And if you stick with looking at the weather the night before, just pulling out an outfit that you plan on wearing and being ready to pull yourself together to get out the door, I think that's super important. And it cuts back on the time that you can spend with this idea of, or the burden of looking really nice every day.

Kirsten Jordan:
And the third thing is making sure that you are dressing for your audience. In New York as a real estate agent, dressing for downtown is different then dressing for uptown. Without over-analyzing it, I do adjust what I'm wearing based on what I have going that day.

Kirsten Jordan:
So, it is really important to value that and remember that people that spend time with you, they can't help but want to have some sort of aspiration about hanging out with you. And that's something I always have believed. I have clients who say to me, "I just love the fact that every single time you show up, you look nice. That's really important because I feel like you'll represent my property better because you're so put together." And you know what? That is something that I've gotten used to doing every single day since I was 10 years old. And it has gotten me really, really far. You just can't discount it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm definitely on the KJ bandwagon that we start dressing up a little bit more.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Million Dollar Listing New York is now out on Bravo. So, everyone needs to be watching that. Where can people find out more about you, KJ?

Kirsten Jordan:
I have a website. It's called www.KirstenJordan.com. There you can find all of my press. You can also find all of the videos that I've created, all of my blogs and then you can click through. And then there's a way to get to my real estate website, of course, which is the www.KirstenJordanTeam.com that has all of my real estate listings. And then it also has all the historical sales that I've done. So, you can do a deep dive there as well. And then of course you can find me on Instagram @Kirsten.Jordan.

Kirsten Jordan:
If you look on Bravo's website, which is www.bravotv.com, there's a ton of stuff there too that shows what we're going to be doing on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the show is amazing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Kirsten Jordan:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys enjoyed listening to that interview as much as I enjoy talking to Kirsten. Let's review a little bit of what we learned from her. When I asked her what she learned from her co-stars, Kirsten was honest. They are her peers but they're also the competition. And that doesn't mean you don't like them. It doesn't mean you don't get along with them but it is something to think about when you collaborate in your career. Sometimes there's only one winner. Make sure it's you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another tip. Protect your time. That means thinking not just about outsourcing things like childcare if you're a parent, but maybe other things like your personal to-do list. So, you get to spend time doing what you want. That might be with your kids if you're a parent or if you're a parent, maybe that's not spending time with your kids and doing something else. Whatever it may be, you can free up your time. Think about how you allocate your resources and really make sure they reflect your priorities.

Bobbi Rebell:
When it comes to real estate, run the numbers before you fall in love with a property and listen to the professionals that you hire. You are paying them for their expertise. Get your money's worth.

Bobbi Rebell:
Kirsten also had great general advice about being successful in your career or in your business. First of all, she talks about coming up with a consistent look. Get your outfit ready for the next day. So, you don't waste time in the morning. It will really lower your stress levels. Dress for your audience. People hire people that they think have their act together. How you present yourself is often the first and biggest indicator, if that is true. Like it or not. Just saying.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so excited to watch the Million Dollar Listing New York season unfilled. Kirsten is a total star and I am so grateful that she took the time to be part of this podcast and share with all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Make sure you follow her on all the socials and definitely check out the show. And if you are an M D L N Y super fan like me, DM me and tell me what you think of this season. I want to hear from you guys, seriously. I'm a little obsessed. I am @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram. Also, please support the show by checking out and hopefully making some purchases on www.grownupgear.com for all the gifts you need this spring. Including graduations, bridal showers, engagement parties and of course, M D L N Y viewing parties because really guys, what is more grown-up than being able to watch as much high quality, reality TV as you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
And in fact, next week, we're going to have the stars of another one of my favorite reality TV shows on. The ladies from the Netflix hit series, Marriage or Mortgage, Nichole Holmes and Sarah Miller. I have a lot to say about this show and the ladies really dish with some fantastic insider moments and money tips.

Bobbi Rebell:
Until next week. Big thanks to Million Dollar Listing New York's, Kirsten Jordan for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
The financial grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Saven is our Talent Coordinator and Content Creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes. You can get for every show, right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell:
Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to www.BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our grownup gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Rachel Rodgers is back! She has a new book "We Should All Be Millionaires" plus why broken kitchen cabinets drive her nuts and why she is throwing out her “shitty bras”. Rachel also updates us on the Rodgers Ranch and her company Hello Seven.

Rachel’s Tips

Tip #1- We have this thing where we want to be liked. Every human wants to be liked, this is not unique to women, but our culture has created this situation where women think they need to be nice and they need to be liked by all. Let me tell you something, that is a losing game. That desire to be liked really kills your ability to generate more money. I think, we think like, "Oh, if I make a bunch of money, people are not going to like me." You know what? People already don't like you, so who cares? Might as well make some money.

Tip #2- It's just little things like that, where we have shabby conditions around us that make us feel shabby inside. When you wake up and your environment tells you, "You know what? You must be a boss because look at this environment that you're in," guess what? You're going to go out there and you're going to make million-dollar decisions all day, every day. It really shifts your energy when you are in an environment that makes you feel really good.

Tip #3-Are you surrounding yourself with people who make broke decisions all day? Is your best girlfriend, Brenda, calling you to complain about her job every day, but never does anything to go get a better job or talk to her boss about it or deal with her situation? Or are you surrounded by people who when you say, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this exciting thing. Hey, I'm thinking about buying a house. Hey, I'm thinking about making this money move," they're like, "Ooh, I wouldn't do that," and discouraging you and being very negative about it and making you feel bad about being ambitious? When you have those kinds of people around you all day, trust me, it is affecting your ability to make million-dollar decisions. This is literally nonstop. This is exactly how it works, and there's science to back it up. Harvard studies, where it shows that the people that you spend the most time with, 95% of your success or failure in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish comes from the people you surround yourself with on a daily basis. If you are surrounding yourself with naysayers, people who are negative, people who are not ambitious at all, people who are discouraging, you are going to be discouraged and you're likely not going to make the moves that you want to be making.

Tip #4- Okay, a lot of times we say, "Well, I really want to upgrade my home, but I don't have enough money." One of the sections of the book, what we talk about is can we flip that but to an and? Can we say instead of, "I want to do this thing, but I can't afford it," what if you said, "I want to do this thing and I don't currently have the money." Cool, now that opens up possibilities. It makes you feel like, "Oh, okay. These are the facts of the case. I want to do this thing and I don't have the money right now, but what could I do to change the situation?" I could potentially change it. It creates opportunity. It opens it up, it expands the possibilities. Whereas when you say, "But," it's kind of like it closes the door on that being a possibility, it closes the door on that opportunity. I encourage you to be and people instead of but people. This goes to the peer group. Are you surrounded by people who can say, "Yes, that's true, and what could you do differently? Let's brainstorm some opportunities." Imagine if we had friends who would brainstorm business opportunities, money-making opportunities, networking opportunities with us, instead of talking about everything that's wrong with the world and just complaining all the time and commiserating. We could do that too, but let's make sure that we are also being expansive. If you change your but to and, that might open up some creativity for you to come up with solutions to the financial problems that come up.

Follow Rachel!

• Instagram - @hello7co

• Instagram - @therodgersranch

• Instagram - @rachrodgersesq

• Facebook - @Hello7Co

• Facebook - @rachelrodgerslaw

• Twitter - @rachrodgersesq

• Rachel’s website - www.helloseven.co

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

It is officially spring, and that means graduation season is on. We here at the Financial Grownup Podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and the seriously most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts, all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup Gear also makes great gifts for Mother's Day, Father's Day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette parties, birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code GRADUATION for a 15% discount, and thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and we truly appreciate your support.

Rachel Rodgers :

We did a 10K in 10 Days challenge with 350 of our clients. The average was like $6,700 per person, and they, as a group, made $2.4 million in 10 days.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes, my friends, $10,000 in 10 days, do you dare take the challenge? You want to hear about it though, right? Rachel Rodgers is back and the perfect guest for our newly updated format here on Money Tips for Financial Grownups. If you missed the bonus episode, it should be just before this one in your feed, but in short, we're streamlining the show to focus more on money tips to help us all be our best financial grownups. I lost count of all the incredible money tips that Rachel shares in our interview, but you're going to hear ... sound every time she drops one.

Bobbi Rebell:

Rachel, who is the CEO of HelloSeven and runs the Rodgers' Ranch, which you're going to hear about in our interview, has a new book out called We Should All be Millionaires. I read it cover to cover in one sitting and you should too, then you should also go back and make note of all the gems in the book. But first, let's get some extra money tips in our interview. Here is Rachel Rodgers.

Bobbi Rebell:

Rachel Rodgers, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast again, welcome back.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yay, I'm so glad to be back. I'm excited.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, we're celebrating because your book, We Should All be Billionaires: A Woman's Guide to Earning More, Building Wealth, and Gaining Economic Power, is released today, the day that this episode is coming out. Tell us high level about the book and what we can expect.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Well, you can expect some tough love and you can expect a guide to becoming a millionaire, making a million dollars. I think we need that. We shoot for six figures and it's not enough, I don't know if you've noticed. You probably have, because you're a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I live in New York City.

Rachel Rodgers :

Exactly, but I want women to be shooting for seven figures so that we can really make a massive impact. The reality is that 2% of women entrepreneurs ever hit the seven-figure mark, and when it comes to the world's billionaires, very, very few of them are women. I think we need to understand how to earn more, and that's what this book is about. It's not about what to put in your 401k or how to invest, what to do with your money on the backend. No, it's about how to get more of it in the first place.

Bobbi Rebell:

You challenge your clients to come up with a way to make $10,000 in 10 days. Let's just start with the results, and then tell me some of the ways that you could make $10,000 in 10 days.

Rachel Rodgers :

We did a 10K in 10 Days challenge with 350 of our clients, and they, as a group, made $2.4 million in 10 days.

Bobbi Rebell:

What was the average?

Rachel Rodgers :

The average was like $6,700 per person, approximately.

Bobbi Rebell:

Which is incredible.

Rachel Rodgers :

I mean, incredible, right? To me, it's not about the money. It's about the fact that what I'm trying to prove and what I want women to be able to prove to themselves is that you can earn as much as you want, whenever you want. You have the ability to generate cash whenever you need to. I think we have a money problem come up and we're like, "I don't know what I'm going to do. Let me start cutting things and slashing things. Let me start shrinking my life," and I'm like, "I do the opposite." If something comes up and I want to spend money on something, I'm like, "Okay, well, let me think about what are my different ways of earning more and which one am I going to choose? Okay, great. I'm going to choose that one, let me put it out there," and then I earn that money in 30 days or less and then I go do that thing I wanted to do.

Bobbi Rebell:

What are some of the best ways people came up with to earn money?

Rachel Rodgers :

Oh, it was amazing. There were people having yard sales, people were just reaching out to past clients who owed them money and they just hadn't reached out to them and said, "Hey, you owe me money. Hey, you hadn't paid your invoice, can you go ahead and take care of that?" They made all this money from clients that were like six months late, just because they weren't following up. I'm like, "Honey, we need to focus on our money and not let all of those dollars trickle out of our hands." That's what I see happening with women as a whole, and so I'm asking us to hold ourselves accountable to really pay attention to our money.

Rachel Rodgers :

That was some of the things that they did. They launched new programs, they created products. They had ideas for all these different ways that they could make money or they thought like, "Oh, one day maybe I'll do X," and I'm like, "I challenge you to go do X right now," and they would do it. They would launch a new program or launch a product and put it out there. They didn't even have to create the product or the program yet, they could just say, "Hey, this is coming. Would you like one? If you purchase it early, here's what happens. You have 10 days to say, yes, you want it," they buy it and then you have a little bit of time to go create the thing and deliver it.

Bobbi Rebell:

And it's also a proven idea. One of my favorite parts of the book, you say you have three ways that women make bad money decisions. What are the three ways that women make bad money decisions?

Rachel Rodgers :

Well, we have this thing where we want to be liked, it's like every human wants to be liked, this is not unique to women, but our culture has created this situation where women think they need to be nice and they need to be liked by all. Let me tell you something, that is a losing game. That desire to be liked really kills your ability to generate more money. I think, we think like, "Oh, if I make a bunch of money, people are not going to like me." You know what? People already don't like you, so who cares? Might as well make some money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Absolutely. Okay, number two, what was the second thing?

Rachel Rodgers :

Environment. We're in this broke (beep) environment. We have (beep) bras. I literally just bought 12 new bras because we've been in a pandemic and every bra has a busted strap, the wire is broken. I was like, "Honey, get your life together." It was just things like that. One of my clients used to have a cabinet in her kitchen that would not open all the way, and because of that, she had a small little kitchen and so it was all shoved into the other cabinets. Every time she opened her cabinets, all this (beep) falling out. She was just like, "This drives me nuts literally all day, every day," every time she's making coffee, every time she's preparing a meal.

Rachel Rodgers :

It's just little things like that, where we have shabby conditions around us that make us feel shabby inside. When you wake up and your environment tells you, "You know what? You must be a boss because look at this environment that you're in," guess what? You're going to go out there and you're going to make million-dollar decisions all day, every day. It really shifts your energy when you are in an environment that makes you feel really good.

Bobbi Rebell:

And then the third one has to do with who we surround ourselves with, right?

Rachel Rodgers :

Exactly. Are you surrounding yourself with people who make broke (beep) decisions all day? Is your best girlfriend, Brenda, calling you to complain about her job every day, but never does anything to go get a better job or talk to her boss about it or deal with her situation? Or are you surrounded by people who when you say, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this exciting thing. Hey, I'm thinking about buying a house. Hey, I'm thinking about making this money move," they're like, "Ooh, I wouldn't do that," and discouraging you and being very negative about it and making you feel bad about being ambitious? When you have those kinds of people around you all day, trust me, it is affecting your ability to make million-dollar decisions.

Rachel Rodgers :

This is literally nonstop. This is exactly how it works, and there's science to back it up. Harvard studies, where it shows that the people that you spend the most time with, 95% of your success or failure in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish comes from the people you surround yourself with on a daily basis. If you are surrounding yourself with naysayers, people who are negative, people who are not ambitious at all, people who are discouraging, you are going to be discouraged and you're likely not going to make the moves that you want to be making.

Bobbi Rebell:

Another money tip in the book that I love has to do with flipping just one word. Tell us about that.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Okay, a lot of times we say, "Well, I really want to upgrade my home, but I don't have enough money." One of the sections of the book, what we talk about is can we flip that but to an and? Can we say instead of, "I want to do this thing, but I can't afford it," what if you said, "I want to do this thing and I don't currently have the money." Cool, now that opens up possibilities. It makes you feel like, "Oh, okay. These are the facts of the case. I want to do this thing and I don't have the money right now, but what could I do to change the situation?" I could potentially change it. It creates opportunity. It opens it up, it expands the possibilities. Whereas when you say, "But," it's kind of like it closes the door on that being a possibility, it closes the door on that opportunity. I encourage you to be and people instead of but people.

Rachel Rodgers :

This goes to the peer group. Are you surrounded by people who can say, "Yes, that's true, and what could you do differently? Let's brainstorm some opportunities." Imagine if we had friends who would brainstorm business opportunities, money-making opportunities, networking opportunities with us, instead of talking about everything that's wrong with the world and just complaining all the time and commiserating. We could do that too, but let's make sure that we are also being expansive. If you change your but to and, that might open up some creativity for you to come up with solutions to the financial problems that come up.

Bobbi Rebell:

Changing the way that you frame how you see things, so important. You also talk about taking certain tests to figure out basically where your talent is, where you're most likely to be the most successful.

Rachel Rodgers :

One of the things that we recommend is that we do an assessment, a skills assessment, to see what skills have I acquired over the years, what are my natural talents and gifts and strengths, what am I naturally good at, what do people come to me all the time to ask me for, where you can start to really hone in on the way that you add value in the world and then how can you capitalize on that skill, how can you start charging for that service, or how can you create a product based on that skillset that can increase your earning potential.

Bobbi Rebell:

And there are specific tests you recommend.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes, exactly. You can take StrengthsFinders, Kolbe, DiSC. There's also a great book called The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. Each one of these will help you assess for yourself where your natural talents and skills lie, and so you can figure out where is my money-making potential.

Bobbi Rebell:

You were waiting for a client's check.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you needed that money. It's very relatable in the last year, because we all learned how important having that cash cushion, whether you label it as an emergency fund or just savings, whatever it may be, you were in a precarious position waiting on money to come in. Tell us what you needed the money for, what was going on, and how it was resolved.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. This was years ago, I was probably two years into building my business. I was pregnant with my son, my daughter was one years old. I was trying to put her in daycare. I was working from home, my husband was in school at the time. My child had been home with us for a full year, there was zero childcare. My child was with her father or me or both of us for the whole first year of her life. I'm trying to grow a law practice, so I needed childcare, and searched for the right childcare, found a great place and her spot came up on the wait list. I'm like, "Great." Now, I'm waiting for this corporate check to come from a client. This was one of my first corporate clients and it was a big check for $5,000, which was the most money that I had ever received at one time in my life at the time.

Rachel Rodgers :

I'm waiting for months for this check to come, because we all know corporations, sometimes it's like net 30. I mean, they just pay you when they feel like it, basically. Three, four months later, finally the check shows up, I go to the bank to deposit, I'm like, "Thank God, I'm going to deposit this check and then immediately write a check for the daycare and go drop that off so that I can hold her spot," because it was like the last day to reserve her spot. I get to the bank, I deposit it, I'm all giddy and excited. I mean, I'm in my sweats, looking like crap, but who cares, I got money so I'm happy. I go to deposit it and the bank teller says, "Great, that'll be a two-week hold," and I'm like, "Pardon me? What?" I'm whispering to her because I don't want the other people in the bank to hear me and I'm like, "Is there any way you can make that available like today?" and she's like, "Nope, I can't because it's an out-of-state check."

Rachel Rodgers :

She sent me to go talk to the branch manager. I go talk to the branch manager, who's an older white guy. Here I am in my sweats looking like a broke (beep) college student and not a trustworthy professional. I go and talk to him and tell him I need the money right away. My face is getting red and I'm just absolutely mortified to be an attorney who has to go beg the branch manager to make her money available right away. It was a good wake up call. I was watching the branch manager and another banker looking at their monitor, I could tell they're scrolling through my account, looking at all my purchases. I'm sitting there and I'm feeling the hot tears come, my face is all red. As I sat there, I just had this moment where I was like, "Never again. This is my fault that I'm here right now and it will never, ever happen again."

Rachel Rodgers :

Luckily, they did release the check, I was able to put my daughter in childcare. That year I took that business from $60,000 a year to $300,000, so 5X'd my revenue, because I got focused because I realized the money was on me. Somebody else isn't going to make that money for me, it's not going to manifest out of thin air, and it's nobody's fault necessarily. Yes, there are systemic things at play. There is racism and sexism at play for sure, and at the same time, I also have a choice in the matter and there's also decisions that I'm making on a daily basis. I held myself to being a financial grownup, and that year, I really grew up and made a lot more money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Just one of the many, many incredible and inspiring stories in your new book. Tell us, we know the book is available everywhere, what else should people be looking out for from you? I know you have a course associated with the book and a lot more going on at the Rodgers' Ranch and so on. Tell us.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Lord, I seem to have way too much going on. We have a podcast called the HelloSeven Podcast. We're always interviewing women, definitely women of color, who are making seven figures or more, because again, I like to provide my clients with evidence.

Bobbi Rebell:

And the Rodgers' Ranch, what's going on there?

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes, we have been fixing it up. It's so funny, my children are right outside my window. My little cottage is right next to the arena where we do horse training and lessons and stuff. My kids are out there right now, riding horses. Yeah, we're crazy up in here. We've also been renovating our retreat house. We're going to be opening up to be able to offer our retreat house up to people who want to come and have a little equestrian getaway here in North Carolina, in the next couple of weeks, so that's really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you have social handles for all these things, right?

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. We are @therodgersranch, Rodgers with a D, on Instagram. Then my personal Instagram is @rachrodgersesq, and you can follow my company, HelloSeven, @hello7co.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much for coming back to the show.

Rachel Rodgers :

Thank you for having me. I love talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, let's review some of the key money tips that Rachel gave us. First of all, aim high. Rachel is all about seven figures, not six. Having high goals is a win-win. If you reach it, you win, but if you get closer than you would have with a lower goal, you also are better off and you still have more room to grow, win. One of the easiest ways to make money is to collect the money that you are owed receivables matter, get them settled. Sell before you create, that way you prove the concept and you have built in pre-orders when you do launch. Just be careful to manage timeline expectations for when customers will get the product.

Bobbi Rebell:

Get over getting everyone to like you and choose who you spend your time with very carefully. Be a friend, be a business colleague, do not be a therapist, unless of course you are a therapist. Make the effort to create a work environment where you will be your most productive. People are shocked that I wrote most of my book, How to Be a Financial Grownup, at a big ugly Formica table under bright lights at the Whole Foods across the street from my apartment. But you know what? There were no distractions and there was great wifi, it worked. Try to experiment a bit and find what works for you. And take a skills assessment test. We'll have the links to the ones Rachel suggested in the show notes.

Bobbi Rebell:

Friends, there is also a companion course to Rachel's book. You can find out more on her website, which we will also have linked in the show notes. Let me know how you guys liked the updated format. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and get more money tips by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and signing up for our now weekly Money Tips newsletter. Big thanks to Rachel Rodgers for coming back and sharing her money tips for financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Saven is our talent coordinator and content creators, so yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com, and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts, it only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Follow Rachel!

• Instagram - @hello7co

• Instagram - @therodgersranch

• Instagram - @rachrodgersesq

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• Facebook - @rachelrodgerslaw

• Twitter - @rachrodgersesq

• Rachel’s website - www.helloseven.co

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Entrepreneur Jennifer Owens found herself out of a job and out of luck after the startup she worked for folded. But the former Working Mother Editorial Director quickly set her self up for success using some creative strategies she shares on the podcast. 

Jennifer’s Money Story-

A startup I was part of failed, then I looked around and I was inspired by women who had done the same thing ahead of me. And it's formed my own consultancy, do all the things, make an LLC, get it filed right, do whatever. And then look and learn how to pitch myself as the content agency that I knew I could be. Basically like a fractional content agency to people who couldn't afford to hire me. And that was very exciting. And what I'm very proud of is that I got to do interesting projects, but I also got to continue to support my family. I talked to a lot of good friends that had done it before, to kind of learn from their mistakes. And people were very kind to share. I got my accountant from one person. I got the way you set up because when you start to set up, there are S Corps and C Corps. And so finding the one that's right for you, and that will get your tax accruing right. I learned from this network of people, I started reaching out. And yes, behind the scenes, it was very stressful. When that startup was dying, of all people, my mother said, "You know it's going to fall apart." She has the clear-eyed view of someone who can see, whereas when you're in it, you're like, "No, no, I can make it happen. I can keep it going." And no. So no, that was very stressful. And it was until the moment it clicked that, no my mother's right, which is always hard to admit. But my mother is right and I need to get my act together. That's when I started putting the pieces together and thinking about, I do the thing where I make a huge list of like a hundred things, what about this? What about that? What about this? And then start to break it down.

Jennifer’s Money Lesson-

If you're looking to pivot, if you think that your skills need to be burnished a bit in your resume, look around, look at resume writers. Because there are bots that are just like SEO is working on websites. Basically the same concept is looking at HR departments. That they are getting, because they're using Indeed and LinkedIn, they're getting hundreds of resumes. And so then they use these bots to scrape and to look at keywords. Is that your skill? I had to admit it wasn't my skill. I know how to do all kinds of content, but this is a specific kind of content. I think there's no shame in investing in yourself for certain skills that will help present you in the best light.

Jennifer’s Everyday Money Tip-

Talk to your older generation of your family about their money stories. Because I have gotten such an insight into, especially the women of my family. Learning about their approach to working and to money.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

If we're being honest, I have a really hard time pricing my work. That's why I depend on a team. My friends, my network of business colleagues who do work in the personal finance space and the content creation space that is somewhat similar to mine. I also talk to family, especially my husband. And in my case, I am fortunate, I have an agent who is familiar with the going rates in the market. Networking isn't just about getting the job. It's also about finding people to bounce ideas off of, and to learn from and about getting paid the right price when you do get the job.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

I love what Jen had to say about talking to older generations. We don't do it enough. I've learned so much about my parents' finances in just the last few years. Frankly, a lot of it was 100% different from what I had just assumed. Don't assume that you know your family's actual money story. Take the time to ask more questions. I'm putting it on my list as well.

Listen to The Bread Winners Podcast

Follow Jennifer!

• Twitter- @_jenniferowens

• LinkedIn- Jennifer Owens

• Website- www.jennwork.com

• Podcast- The Breadwinners

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/
  

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Bobbi Rebell :

It is officially spring, and that means graduation season is on. We here at The Financial Grownup podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and the seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweaters, all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup gear also makes great gifts for mother's day, father's day, engagements, bachelor, bachelorette parties, birthdays. And of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code graduation for a 15% discount. And thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And we truly appreciate your support.

Jennifer Owens :

Behind the scenes. It was very stressful when that startup was dying/ of all people, my mother said, "You know it's going to fall apart." She has the clear-eyed view of someone who can see, whereas when you're in it, you're like, no, no.

Bobbi Rebell :

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup. One lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hey friends, so I think that we have all probably had that sinking feeling, that something not so good is on the horizon. And it's just a matter of time before it hits us. But we actively work to just ignore it and hope we're wrong. And that everything's actually fine, even if it's pretty much crystal clear to our friends and family around us, that this is happening.

Bobbi Rebell :

As you just heard in the open for our guest Jen Owens, that person was her mother who had no doubt, the startup that Jen was working for was a sinking ship. And by the way, that is just the tip of the iceberg. But we'll get to that later.

Bobbi Rebell :

First, welcome everyone. This is the Financial Grownup podcast. We talk to financial grownups who share many stories and lessons and money tips all to help us on our own journeys. Now, I first met Jen Owens at an event ahead of the launch of my book, How to be a Financial Grownup, when she was the Editorial Director at Working Mother. Her energy was, and frankly is still contagious. She is a force. Fast-forward and Jen has had a very exciting, as it turns out, but very unpredictable few years after leaving that job. And I'm not just talking about the COVID times. Even in the before, as we like to say.

Bobbi Rebell :

In addition to her consulting company, Jen works and a new corporate job. Jen is also the cohost of the Breadwinners podcast, which we will talk about later in her interview. But first let's get to that interview. Here is Jen Owens.

Bobbi Rebell :

Jen Owens, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jennifer Owens :

Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell :

Congratulations on the continued success of the Breadwinners podcast. Always a great listen.

Jennifer Owens :

Oh, thank you. You know, very much inspired by the Financial Grownup, for sure.

Bobbi Rebell :

Oh thank you so much. Well, I'm glad to finally have you on here. You brought a money story that is very appropriate for a breadwinner and it has to do with what you did when no one would hire you. Jen, tell us your money story.

Jennifer Owens :

My money story is, how to stay in your career. Even when, how you think your career is supposed to look working for someone else. That's how I had done it for 30 years. So when a startup I was part of failed, then I looked around and I was inspired by women who had done the same thing ahead of me. And it's formed my own consultancy, do all the things, make an LLC, get it filed right, do whatever. And then look and learn how to pitch myself as the content agency that I knew I could be. Basically like a fractional content agency to people who couldn't afford to hire me. And that was very exciting. And what I'm very proud of is that I got to do interesting projects, but I also got to continue to support my family.

Bobbi Rebell :

Okay. But let's break it down. You made it sound like you made a simple checklist and boom, boom, boom. Everything came together. But we both know it was not so simple. Tell us more about what was going on behind the scenes, how you were feeling and how you really actually got those first clients. Because a lot of people hang up the shingle, me, myself and I consulting. And then crickets.

Jennifer Owens :

Yes. I talked to a lot of good friends that had done it before, to kind of learn from their mistakes. And people were very kind to share. I got my accountant from one person. I got the way you set up because when you start to set up, there are S Corps and C Corps. And so finding the one that's right for you, and that will get your tax accruing right. I learned from this network of people, I started reaching out. And yes, behind the scenes, it was very stressful. When that startup was dying, of all people, my mother said, "You know it's going to fall apart."

Bobbi Rebell :

Oh no.

Jennifer Owens :

Yes, well she has the clear-eyed view of someone who can see, whereas when you're in it, you're like, "No, no, I can make it happen. I can keep it going." And no. So no, that was very stressful. And it was until the moment it clicked that, no my mother's right, which is always hard to admit. But my mother is right and I need to get my act together. That's when I started putting the pieces together and thinking about, I do the thing where I make a huge list of like a hundred things, what about this? What about that? What about this? And then start to break it down. Just like you're talking about.

Jennifer Owens :

As for finding clients, I think your go-to spot is your network. I have been working for a lot of years and it's funny that in your network, people don't remember where you are. Because I had been at Working Mother Media for almost a decade and the startup had lasted a year. So people just assumed I was still at Working Mother. And you're like, "Aren't you following my every move?" So no, they don't. But that network from Working Mother, that's my passion anyways, that's my expertise. That's what I tapped first. And I reached out to people just to catch up. I reached out to find out what they were working on and that became my core of my first clients.

Bobbi Rebell :

One thing that's always been frustrating for me in my career is people that are well-meaning, but tell you to do things that you're doing. Because they're really obvious. I mean, if one more person tells me to apply to XYZ for a job that hasn't hired me yet to this day, I just don't know what to do. So what do you do when people give you, basically... It's not necessarily bad advice. It's just obvious advice and sort of condescending. Like, obviously I thought of that, but you don't want to say that when they're well-meaning. And you're like, "I'd rather, you just send business my way, if you, or someone you know, needs it." I don't need you to tell me to apply to this job. I'm doing this.

Jennifer Owens :

Right. I think one answer is to say, other than to be very polite and thank you as we all do, because we're all lovely ladies. But I think one way is to respond, to say, "Do you have any connections there? Do you have any insight there?" Like do you have anything? And if they do, pry it out to them. Get whatever connection. And if they don't have anything, well then thank you. Great. Moving on.

Bobbi Rebell :

And since many of your initial clients come from our friends basically, is it hard to get them to perceive the value in your work? Because one thing entrepreneurs also face is that many people think that because they're your friend or your family, that you're going to give them the discount. You're going to give them the friends and family rate. And you can to some degree, but long-term, that's not really a viable business strategy.

Jennifer Owens :

That's true. And I think that even the step back is to think of pricing. I did the classic thing where, to value yourself at the real rate. And what I mean by that is, I've come to learn after doing this for quite a while, that your rate is not just the moment of time that you're working. It's all the expertise and experience that you bring to that hour.

Jennifer Owens :

So you might work on a project, but the reason you can do it so quickly and so well, and so thoughtfully, and you can think about the future, it's because you have all this experience. Think of it as overhead, like intellectual overhead. So that's where I think talking to your network of peers, talk about pricing. I think people, at least privately, like you and I we'll talk about what we charge people. And you and another person. If we share this information, it really does help us know how to price ourselves, especially if you're new to the market of being an entrepreneur. Because then you can give a friends and family discount that won't hurt you.

Bobbi Rebell :

Very well said. So what is the lesson for our listeners, especially so many people that are rethinking how they're going to get back into the job market as hopefully things continue to improve with respect to the pandemic?

Jennifer Owens :

You know, honest to goodness, real down and dirty. I say, if you're looking to pivot, if you think that your skills need to be burnished a bit in your resume, look around, look at resume writers. Because there are bots that are just like SEO is working on websites. Basically the same concept is looking at HR departments. That they are getting, because they're using Indeed and LinkedIn, they're getting hundreds of resumes. And so then they use these bots to scrape and to look at keywords. Is that your skill? I had to admit it wasn't my skill. I know how to do all kinds of content, but this is a specific kind of content. I think there's no shame in investing in yourself for certain skills that will help present you in the best light.

Bobbi Rebell :

That's very interesting because I never thought about the fact that you need to really SEO optimize your resume these days. Because I've been working on trying to SEO optimize my website for the first time. And it's fascinating. And so that's something that is true. You may not have to do it that often, so it may be worth it to just outsource it rather than invest the time to learn to do it yourself. You may not do it that well yourself in the end. That's such good advice. You did bring with you in everyday money tip that is so... I don't know, it's just endearing. What's your everyday money tip Jen?

Jennifer Owens :

So my everyday money tip is to talk to your older generation of your family about their money stories. Because I have gotten such an insight into, especially the women of my family. Learning about their approach to working and to money. I have a story that my grandmother, my father's mother once followed an ad on the back of the bus to US Shoe, when shoe manufacturing is still a thing in the Northeast. And she got a job as a bookkeeper. And she came home, she had two kids at home, I think they had just entered high school. And her husband, my grandfather said, "Well, as long as you're home for making dinner." And like, "Come on dude." But very lovely parents.

Bobbi Rebell :

But that was actually probably considered very modern at the time.

Jennifer Owens :

And I said, Nana, why did you do that? She said, "Well, I was always good with figures." So she became a bookkeeper and that paid for college. ,That pin money was college money. And what's funny is I'm doing the same thing. What clients can I bring in to pay for college? So it makes me feel linked to my grandmother in a very visceral way.

Bobbi Rebell :

I love that. And it's such great advice because we do get so much information and context on financial decisions that were made in previous generations. And what we can take forward from talking to our older friends and relatives, whoever that may be. It might be your grandparents, but it might be somebody else your life. And I think that's such a wonderful thing to proactively do. Tell us more about everything else you're doing these days, starting with your podcast?

Jennifer Owens :

Well, thank you. The Breadwinners' just celebrated its 100th episode, which is quite the milestone. Can't believe we did that. So The Breadwinners is... We're looking at the world, the everyday hustle of life seen through those of us who have to work. Which is really everyone. So how it impacts our relationships, our careers certainly, our families, our communities. So we enjoy just talking to smart people, of which you shall be on. I am saying it right now for goodness sakes.

Bobbi Rebell :

Anytime. All right. Where can people follow you on social and all those things?

Jennifer Owens :

They can follow me on twitter @_jenniferowens and they can come to thebreadwinnerspodcast.com. All of it is there.

Bobbi Rebell :

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Jen.

Jennifer Owens :

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell :

Okay. My friends, here we go. Financial Grownup tip number one. If we're being honest, I have a really hard time pricing my work. That's why I depend on a team. My friends, my network of business colleagues who do work in the personal finance space and the content creation space that is somewhat similar to mine. I also talk to family, especially my husband. And in my case, I am fortunate, I have an agent who is familiar with the going rates in the market. Networking isn't just about getting the job. It's also about finding people to bounce ideas off of, and to learn from and about getting paid the right price when you do get the job.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup tip number two. I love what Jen had to say about talking to older generations. We don't do it enough. I've learned so much about my parents' finances in just the last few years. Frankly, a lot of it was 100% different from what I had just assumed. Don't assume that you know your family's actual money story. Take the time to ask more questions. I'm putting it on my list as well.

Bobbi Rebell :

Friends, I have more books to give away as we continue to celebrate financial literacy month. If you want to win a book from one of our Financial Grownup authors, just DM me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1, that's Bobbi Rebell and the number one. And just write, "I want to win a book by a Financial Grownup author." And please continue to join my money tips for grownups club on clubhouse, DM me @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram if you need an invite. We meet every Friday at 1:00 PM Eastern time. And we look forward to having you as part of the conversation.

Bobbi Rebell :

I also encourage everyone to check out Jen's podcast, the Breadwinners podcast and big thanks of course, to Jen Owens for helping us all be Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell :

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our Editor and Producer and Amanda Saven is our Talent Coordinator and Content Creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes, you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell :

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to Bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our grownup gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Catherine Alford did everything right as she got ready to start a family with her medical student husband. But the unexpected and financially devastating cost of her newborn twins forced her to make some tough choices, that have changed her whole view of the world. Plus- her top negotiating tip and a preview of her new book Moms Got Money: A Millennial Mom’s Guide to Managing Money Like a Boss. 

Catherine’s Money Story-

Before I became self-employed, before I gave birth to twins in 2014, I had chronicled my whole plan to become self-employed, super motivating. I saved this $10,000 baby fund. I saved all this money because I knew we'd have to move shortly after having the kids. I kept showing everyone the side hustles of this, the building up, so I was very organized and prepared which is sort of my way with money. But after I had the twins, after we moved, all of those things, having preemie twins, having some health problems with them, it pretty much drained everything I had saved and announced to thousands of people in the world on my blog that I had saved. And the twins needed this specialty formula, expensive formul. I told my pediatrician, "I don't know if I can afford it." It was like, $50 a can or something. And my husband was a student at the time, so it was just me, big time, brand new entrepreneur, mom of twins. I got this, and I did not have it. And so the pediatrician said, "Well, you can use this program called WIC which is for low-income mothers. It provides food and other things to make sure that mom and baby are well-nourished." I went and got them. And I didn't tell anybody because I felt such shame. I just felt like I was supposed to be this person helping other people with their savings, and I was supposed to be this motivating person. And I felt so ashamed that I couldn't buy this formula. And what made it worse is that I get the check. I've got these two babies with me in the grocery store, and I find the formula, do the whole thing, and the checkout lady is looking at the check, "What is this? I'm so nervous. I'm already feeling such shame. Got the two babies. I'm like, "It's a WIC check. You use it, and then I take the formula." She's like, "We've never seen one of these before. No one uses these at this store, and I don't know what to do." And so she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." And in that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids get so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store. So I start crying. The kids start crying. The manager comes over. We all made it to the car. All of us cried the whole way home, babies, me. And I think that was probably the lowest point for me, and my kids just turned seven. So it took me six or seven years to actually share that with the public.

Catherine’s Money Lesson-

I think the biggest lesson is even in those bleakest kind of bottom moments, don't give up. There can always be a comeback story. I could've asked for help. I have a whole chapter on the importance of vulnerability and telling people when you need help and even being vulnerable and sharing your successes with people too. But I am stubborn and super independent. I really wanted to make it on my own, wanted the business to work. And it just felt like such a failure for me, but I could have easily asked for help from a family member, from somebody, but I didn't. And I wanted to make myself suffer as if it was my fault, even though I had done everything right. So the experience really fueled me. I was like, "I don't want to do this again. I don't want to go through this again." So I really doubled down on my business after that. And by the time my kids were three, I was earning six figures for my business, and things got better from there. But it was really that moment that was like, "Look, we can't mess around with this business. Girl, you got sit down. You got to get going on this because we can't be in this checkout line again like this."

Buy your copy of Mom’s Got Money now!

Check out millennialhomeowner.com , a website to help millennial’s on their journey to buy a house. (Catherine’s on the team!)

Follow Catherine!

• Instagram - @catherinecalford

• Twitter- @catcalford

• LinkedIn- Catherine Alford

• Website- www.catherinealford.com

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• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell :

I was watching this interview the other day with Nick Jonas. He was promoting his upcoming album and telling everyone about how he learned to make these cool designs in his homemade cappuccinos. And by the way, based on the picture that they showed, he's actually pretty good at it.

Bobbi Rebell :

And then he broke character. You could just see the change in his body language and his voice as he got honest. Nick Jonas says he is just so bored, and you know what? I believe him. I am too. I don't know. How about you? I would love to come in here and say that I have some magical solution. Sorry, but at least I can try to get all of us to break down our walls a little bit like Nick and maybe have a little laugh at everything?

Bobbi Rebell :

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Bobbi Rebell :

Grownup Gear is perfect for that. Who doesn't need a pillow that says, "You had me a debt free" with an adorable pig wearing shades. And let's be honest. A sweatshirt reading, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either" is really what we're all thinking.

Bobbi Rebell :

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Bobbi Rebell :

Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes, and thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Catherine Alford :

So she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." In that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids gets so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store.

Catherine Alford :

I start crying. The kids start crying. All of us cried the whole way home.

Bobbi Rebell :

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, but you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hello, my grownup friends. The title of this episode is Public Money Shame at the Grocery Store.

Bobbi Rebell :

Now at first glance, you might think I was talking about guest, Mom's Got Money author, Catherine Alford. But the title doesn't refer to Catherine. It's actually meant to point to the dad who judged her, standing behind her at the grocery store, knowing nothing about her or her situation. Shame on him because Katherine's newborn twins were preemies. She needed a special formula that was crazy expensive. And so, yes, she needed help. And she had the humility and frankly, the common sense as someone responsible for two tiny humans to get the babies the help they needed, even if it meant asking for help.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'll leave it to Catherine to share more in our interview, and I'll be back with some very strong feelings about this other person later.

Bobbi Rebell :

But first, a quick check-in. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Financial Grownup. We share stories from accomplished financial grownups and the lessons from them, and then we wrap things up with the money tip we can all put to work to live a richer life.

Bobbi Rebell :

When I met Catherine for the first time in 2016, my book had just come out, and she asked me for advice because she had an idea for a book. Her twins were, I would guess, about two years old, and now they're seven. And she has published that book. I'm so truly and deeply proud of this woman, having witnessed just a fraction of what she's experienced and is now sharing.

Bobbi Rebell :

And for the non-moms out there, invest the time to listen to this story because as I said a few moments ago, the story isn't so much about Catherine. It's about all of us, including that dad who couldn't hit pause for just a moment to see the human being right in front of him and the money struggles that we choose not to see.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'm so grateful Catherine shared her story. Here is Mom's Got Money author, Catherine.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hello, Catherine Alford, my friend. You are a Financial Grownup. Welcome.

Catherine Alford :

Thanks for having me, Bobbi. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell :

I am excited to share more about your new book, Mom's Got Money: A Millennial Mom's Guide to Managing Money like a Boss. Congrats on the book.

Catherine Alford :

Thank you so much. Been a long time coming, as you know.

Bobbi Rebell :

I do know. And I want to first do your money story. We'll get back to more about the book, but the money story I've asked you to talk about is from the book. And you're going to elaborate a little bit on it here, but I hope people will go back and read the full story in the book.

Bobbi Rebell :

It's a topic that is really uncomfortable. Very few people want to talk about, but we should because, I'm just going to guess, it's probably more common in different ways than any of us want to admit in public to the world, and you were very brave to do so.

Bobbi Rebell :

Tell us your money story, Catherine.

Catherine Alford :

Sure. Well, before I became self-employed, before I gave birth to twins in 2014, I had chronicled my whole plan to become self-employed, super motivating. I saved this $10,000 baby fund. I saved all this money because I knew we'd have to move shortly after having the kids. I kept showing everyone the side hustles of this, the building up, so I was very organized and prepared which is sort of my way with money.

Catherine Alford :

But after I had the twins, after we moved, all of those things, having preemie twins, having some health problems with them, it pretty much drained everything I had saved and announced to thousands of people in the world on my blog that I had saved. And the twins needed this specialty formula, expensive formula reflux, blah, blah, blah.

Catherine Alford :

I told my pediatrician, "I don't know if I can afford it." It was like, I don't know, $50 a can or something. And my husband was a student at the time, so it was just me, big time, brand new entrepreneur, mom of twins. I got this, and I did not have it.

Catherine Alford :

And so the pediatrician said, "Well, you can use this program called WIC which is for low-income mothers. It provides food and other things to make sure that mom and baby are well-nourished." I went and got them. And I didn't tell anybody because I felt such shame. I just felt like I was supposed to be this person helping other people with their savings, and I was supposed to be this motivating person. And I felt so ashamed that I couldn't buy this formula.

Catherine Alford :

And what made it worse is that I get the check. I've got these two babies with me in the grocery store, and I find the formula, do the whole thing, and the checkout lady is looking at the check, "What is this? I'm so nervous. I'm already feeling such shame. Got the two babies. I'm like, "It's a WIC check. You use it, and then I take the formula." She's like, "We've never seen one of these before. No one uses these at this store, and I don't know what to do."

Catherine Alford :

And so she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." And in that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids get so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store.

Catherine Alford :

So I start crying. The kids start crying. The manager comes over. We all made it to the car. All of us cried the whole way home, babies, me. And I think that was probably the lowest point for me, and my kids just turned seven. So it took me six or seven years to actually share that with the public.

Catherine Alford :

But that one made it in the book. It's still the one story in the whole book that gets me every time. I go right back there to the intercom every time I read that.

Bobbi Rebell :

What's the lesson from that? I mean, there are so many. There are so many lessons, I don't know where to begin. For you, for our listeners, what is the biggest lesson, I guess?

Catherine Alford :

I think the biggest lesson is even in those bleakest kind of bottom moments, don't give up. There can always be a comeback story. I mean, I could've asked for help. I mean, I have a whole chapter on the importance of vulnerability and telling people when you need help and even telling... being vulnerable and sharing your successes with people too.

Catherine Alford :

But I am stubborn, super independent. I really wanted to make it on my own, wanted the business to work. And it just felt like such a failure for me, but I could have easily asked for help from a family member, from somebody, but I didn't. And I wanted to make myself suffer as if it was my fault, even though I had done everything right.

Catherine Alford :

So the experience really fueled me. I was like, "I don't want to do this again. I don't want to go through this again." So I really doubled down on my business after that. And by the time my kids were three, I was earning six figures for my business, and things got better from there. But it was really that moment that was like, "Look, we can't mess around with this business. Girl, you got sit down. You got to get going on this because we can't be in this checkout line again like this."

Bobbi Rebell :

How did it affect your view of people that you now see that need help?

Catherine Alford :

So much compassion, and I have so much empathy. You just... you never really know what someone is going through. And I'm actually grateful for the experience because I think I have a lot more compassion.

Catherine Alford :

I actually... I tried to buy two cans of formula for a mom behind me in line. I like really want to do this now. It was funny because I was finishing checking out, and the mom behind me had two cans of formula. I'm like, "I'll take her formula too." And she said, "Oh no, I'm buying it with WIC. Don't worry about it." And I was like, "I know about that. I used that with my twins." And I always try to help moms when I see formula on their checkout line instead of leave like the dad behind me.

Catherine Alford :

So I think even really successful people have these down moments, especially in our industry and the kind of jobs we do. We don't really like to talk about the bad stuff. Educators about personal finance talk about all the good stuff. All you see is the million dollar business. Even when you've had a lot of good runs, you can still have the bad moment and come back from it.

Bobbi Rebell :

And we learned a lot about that in the pandemic. Many people just lost clients overnight, or the clients hit pause, and there was so much uncertainty in what we do and in what so many people do. Thank you for sharing that.

Bobbi Rebell :

Let's move on to your money tip because this has to do with valuing yourself, and it particularly applies to moms in the context of your book, but it really could apply to so many people that do things that aren't necessarily valued for what they should be.

Bobbi Rebell :

What is your money tip?

Catherine Alford :

Well, this one is for all the mamas out there. I really like to encourage moms to know their approximate hourly rate. As moms, we feel so guilty. All of us know we need help. We need Mary Poppins. We [inaudible 00:12:02] fairy godmother. We all need so much help. But we resist. We're like, "We don't really need the housekeeper. Do we really need a babysitter for that thing? I could just take the kids to my hair appointment."

Catherine Alford :

It's like, "No, you need to know your hourly rate so that you can eliminate that guilt about outsourcing." As long as you make more per hour than what you're paying the person helping you, then there should be no guilt. If you're a stay-at-home mom, you could maybe do a little side hustle or something to help you out, or if you're a working mom, make sure you calculate that rate, and that way you, don't have any guilt.

Bobbi Rebell :

Fun fact, LinkedIn recently added Stay-at-Home Mom as a job category.

Catherine Alford :

I saw that. That's cool.

Bobbi Rebell :

Why so long?

Bobbi Rebell :

Anyway, I want to talk about your book, Mom's Got Money: A Millennial Mom's Guide to Managing Money Like a Boss, and I'm going to put you on the spot. In the book, you talk about cringe-worthy purchases when you advise moms to go and look at things that are maybe not necessarily needed in terms of the things that they spend money on.

Bobbi Rebell :

What is your most cringe-worthy purchase, Catherine Alford?

Catherine Alford :

I remember when I first started running ads from Facebook for my business really early on in my business, I pretty much did not have the money to spend, or it was most of what I had earned that month. And I remember spending almost $1,000 on Facebook Ads to run webinars [inaudible 00:13:22] and nothing converted and nothing sold. It was in two days, the money just disappeared like I was gambling with it.

Catherine Alford :

Now, 10 years later, I know a lot more about Facebook Ads, but just so many choices in business like that. You have to kind of try things. But that was a painful one.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right, one more thing. One thing I love in the book is that you talk about the fact that you would love negotiating, and you've taught your children too. What is your number one tip for negotiating successfully?

Catherine Alford :

My number one tip is to be nice. I think people think negotiating is all about being really aggressive and making sure you get your words in, and you make sure you say the number first. I am just so nice when negotiating, and I'm really complimentary about how much I really want to work with the person, how awesome they are. But I have to have a certain number, and it's such a bummer just because I have all these time constraints, it really has to be this number to make it work. So I am the nicest negotiator.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right. Tell us where people can find out more about you and the book.

Catherine Alford :

You could find out more about me at catherinealford.com. I'm always on the 'gram under @catherinecalford. And on my website, my readers can go to the homepage, and they can download a Mom's Got Money workbook which has a ton of stuff from the book and a lot of great things to think about and for moms to sort of jumpstart their money journey.

Bobbi Rebell :

Perfect. Thank you so much. This has been wonderful, so much great advice, and I hope everyone picks up the book.

Catherine Alford :

Thanks for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell :

Here we go, my friends. Financial Grownup Tip Number One: Do as Catherine now says, not as she did. Ask for help from people who love you. Catherine didn't take her own advice to ask for help from the people that care about her, her closest friends and family. As she said in our interview, she has a whole chapter on vulnerability. But Catherine, like many of us, wanted to make it on her own and felt that asking for help, even in these unforeseen and very extreme circumstances, would have been perceived as a failure. She was afraid of letting people down. She now knows so much better.

Bobbi Rebell :

I get it. I bet you do too. It's a really hard thing to ask for help from people that are cheering you on because they think you've got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Well, try to at least have the discussion. It's okay to say that things have changed. You might feel so much relief, just not hiding your secret.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup Tip Number Two, and this is a big one: Do not presume you have any idea what is going on with the person ahead of you in a grocery line who may be using coupons, government assistance, whatever. And don't presume you won't be in a financially vulnerable position in the future. We should all know better after the past year.

Bobbi Rebell :

I also want to share a fun moment that we experienced, we shared, I should say, over social media Catherine and I had soon after we recorded this interview. Her books arrived, and she shared the big unboxing with her kids on her Instagram account. It made me remember my own unboxing moment from 2016 with my now 13-year-old, and guess what? I found the video, and I was able to share it. It was great.

Bobbi Rebell :

The best part of writing a book or any big achievement, frankly, is seeing people you love, and especially your kids, light up with pride. Please think about that the next time you feel guilty working towards a goal or having to spend more time than you would like away from your kids and loved ones.

Bobbi Rebell :

On that note, a couple of big announcements. April is Financial Literacy Month, and thanks to the generosity of our Financial Grownup guests who have new books out and their publishers, I am giving out books to all of you to celebrate. DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and just write, "I'd love a book by a Financial Grownup," and we'll send you one.

Bobbi Rebell :

Next, I want to spend more time getting to know you. Please join me and my Financial Grownup money experts on our weekly Clubhouse chats. They happen Friday at 1:00 PM Eastern in the Money Tips for Grownups Club. DM me on Instagram if you need invitation for Clubhouse or any help in figuring out how to get there. I am @bobbirebell1.

Bobbi Rebell :

And finally, Mother's Day is coming up. I have some great gift options at grownupgear.com. I hope you take a moment to check it out. The podcast is free to you, but the revenue from Grownup Gear helps to support and pay for the podcast, so thank you for your support.

Bobbi Rebell :

Go pick up a copy of Mom's Got Money for yourself or for the moms in your life, and big thanks to Catherine Alford for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell :

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Saven is our talent coordinator and content creator, so that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell :

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell :

While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup.

Bobbi Rebell :

Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes.

Bobbi Rebell :

Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Former pre-school teacher Tiffany Aliche created a mini-“boss” entrepreneur when her savvy stepdaughter started asking questions about money- and put her on an early path to being a financial grownup. Plus we preview Tiffany’s latest book, Get Good with Money. 10 Steps to Financial Wholeness. 

Tiffany’s Money Story

Every time we would go out shopping, My husband would buy my step-daughter a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him thatt his is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup. I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words." She would get birthday money or Christmas money. I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me." What he realized, because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving, she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that. She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time. I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn. Now, when she was buying ( her favorite place is Staples) she was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were. And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy. She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

Tiffany’s Money Lesson

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently. And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Tiffany’s Everyday Money Tip

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered. And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

#2 - Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Buy Tiffany’s book, GET GOOD WITH MONEY today!

Follow Tiffany!

• Instagram - @thebudgetnista

• Twitter- @thebudgetnista

• LinkedIn- Tiffany Aliche

• Website- thebudgetnista.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up-for-work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy t-shirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded-but-still-super-comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick-me-ups to, to let them know it's all good. And that includes you.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently, like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either," or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost-grownup friend.

Bobbi Rebell:

Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

When I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others, so she had... because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, grownups, how many of you had parents who had you open up their paychecks? Definitely not me. But our financial grownup this week, Tiffany Aliche, known as The Budgetnista, didn't just do that; she talked to her bonus daughter about all the money stuff. Not just the paychecks that she was allowing her to open, as early as age seven; she talked to her about the taxes, the business deductions, the negotiations, the side hustles, the net profit and so much more. These ladies do business plans in their sleep.

Bobbi Rebell:

Welcome everyone to the Financial Grownup podcast. So, glad you guys are here. We talk with high-achieving grownups about money stories that inspired their lives and the lessons from them. And this week's financial grownup, Tiffany Aliche, is truly next-level. I joke with her that while most books these days are Money 101, hers, Get Good With Money, is Money 201 because she holds her readers to a higher standard and goes into the real grownup stuff. Not surprising, given her background in teaching preschool, where she sets kids as young as three up for success. You'll hear what she has to say about what kids that age should hear, when they say, "Buy me... " She pulls no punches.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany has a thriving business, teaching money skills to thousands of Dream Catchers and co-hosts the Brown Ambition podcast with Mandi Woodruff. But as you will hear, this mega entrepreneur, wife and mother's biggest accolades may in fact come from the lessons she is teaching her step-daughter. Here is The Budgetnista, Tiffany Aliche.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you so much, Bobbi with an "I".

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes. And congratulations on your book. I'm going to hold it up here, even though no one can see it, just because I feel good holding it up because I love the cover. Your book is Get Good with Money: Ten Simple Steps to Become Financially Whole. We're going to talk about it more later in the podcast, but give us just high-level what it's about.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's about financial wholeness, which is when these 10 core aspects of your financial life grow together and meld together to create the strongest financial foundation possible so you can build any financial house you want on top of it.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I love, when you read the book, you go along and you get percentages, so you feel like you're building to get to that 100%, which is great. Like I said, we're going to circle back to the book, but first I want to ask you your money story. And it has to do with your bonus baby, your daughter, your 14-year-old step-daughter. She was seven when you came into her life. And you had some interesting discussions about money. Tell us how your money conversations began and how they've evolved.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, they began because I just noticed that her father, every time we would go out shopping, food-shopping or whatever, she would always get a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him, "This is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup." So, I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words."

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would get birthday money or Christmas money. And so, I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me."

Tiffany Aliche :

What he realized... because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving... she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that."

Tiffany Aliche :

She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time.

Tiffany Aliche :

I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn like, "Oh... "

Tiffany Aliche :

So, now, when she was buying... her favorite place is Staples. She was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were.

Tiffany Aliche :

And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy.

Tiffany Aliche :

She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you also were very brave in that you were transparent with your money coming in and the costs associated with running a business. Tell us a little bit about why you did that because many parents hold back. We all hold back secret... I don't know if "secrets" is the right word, but we're not with our money, certainly to young people. And that was an interesting decision.

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah. So, I used to allow her... when I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Tiffany Aliche :

And I remember, I think she was in fifth or sixth grade and she had to interview someone she admired. And she chose me because she wanted to be an entrepreneur. She wasn't sure what she wanted to be. I mean, she's sold lip gloss. She's made friendship bracelets. She's done a bunch of different... now, she's got a YouTube channel. Now, she's teaching adults how to use TikTok. It's like she's got a bunch of different businesses going.

Tiffany Aliche :

But I remember when I realized she was really getting it, because she was still young then, maybe eight or nine. And I explained to her how taxes worked. She heard me talking to her father about taxes. She asked me what they were. And I told her, "Similar to sales tax, taxes are when you pay some of the money that you earn to the government so they can use it to make our country better."

Tiffany Aliche :

And I said, "But when you're an entrepreneur, taxes work differently. When I was a teacher," I told her, "Before I even get my paycheck, the government takes their taxes." And she was like, "That's unfair." I'm like, "Many would say so." But I said, "But as an entrepreneur, when you see those paychecks, Supergirl, I get all my money. Then I can use that money to grow and maintain the business. And what's left over, I pay taxes on. That's why you see me save the receipts. I save the receipts so I can show the government, 'Hey, I spent money to run my business.'" She had a bag one day and it was 15 different receipts. And I'm like, "Well, what are these from?" She's like, "These are the receipts so you give to the government so you could show them that you spend money on the business." And I was like, "Well, they have to be receipts for my business." But the fact that at eight or nine that she was thinking like that was just really transformative.

Tiffany Aliche :

I was a school teacher before I started The Budgetnista. I've seen firsthand that a lot of parents think that it's not age-appropriate to teach financial education to kids. It's inappropriate not to. There are ways to do it in a way that's appropriate as young as three because typically by three or four or five, kids start to saying, "Mommy, Daddy, Auntie, Uncle, can you buy me... " not just, "Can I have... " So, once you hear that word "buy", they've already made the connection between stuff and money. You want to make sure it's the right connection.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson from your money story?

Tiffany Aliche :

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently.

Tiffany Aliche :

And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Bobbi Rebell:

So brilliant. You brought with you an everyday money tip that has to do with paper towels?

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tell us. Tell us. This is great.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered.

Tiffany Aliche :

And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"

Tiffany Aliche :

And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

Bobbi Rebell:

Skip the drama. Find the solution.

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's talk about this book because it is... this is a substantial book. Again, it's called Get Good with Money. One of my favorite things is you say something that has become somewhat controversial. In this age, where we are so focused on automating things... and some things should be automated, absolutely. We should automate our savings and things like that. But just because something, like certain apps, can automate investing doesn't mean you don't need the human touch. You really advocate for having a human involved. Tell us more about the belief and why we need to be more cognizant of it.

Tiffany Aliche :

No, absolutely. Because there's nuance with human beings that you don't get from just automating everything. And also too, it's really from people that you learn. So, if everything is automated and you automate your investments, that's great, but you don't really learn why something works. That's why we have teachers because it's through these teachers that you get to really learn why something works and how it works.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's critically important, depending on where you are in life, that you have actual people who have been there, done that to lean into, whether it's a CFP, whether it's an accountant. You may or may not need one. You might need an insurance agent. You might need an attorney. It all depends. But at the very least, I tell people to get themselves an accountability partner, someone that you can travel the financial journey with. It might be your work mom, it might be your sister, your cousin, but someone that you can link with that you can kind of share the struggles, that you can get accountability and encouragement from and someone who can help to normalize the process. I think human beings work best in community. And it's not something that goes away just because we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:

I read so many books, Tiffany. And many of them are very good, but they're very much Money 101. This is, I feel, more Money 201. You're a former teacher. Well, you're really still a teacher, let's be honest. You hold people to a higher standard. You go into some much more sophisticated topics, but in an accessible way. Tell us about that decision to be a little bit more challenging and to be a little more ambitious with this book.

Tiffany Aliche :

Well, as a teacher, Bobbi, one of the things that we really learn is something called differentiated learning, that people learn differently. So, literally, when I taught, I had kids ages just turned three to turned five. So, that's like high school and college in the same classroom. So, I really had to learn how do I teach something in a way that doesn't offend the five-year-olds and they don't get bored and start tearing up the classroom, or it's not too heavy for the three-year-olds so they don't start tearing up the classroom. And so, I really mastered how do I speak to different ranges of folks.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, the first five steps in financial wholeness, Get Good with Money are really the foundational: budgeting, debt, credit, savings, learn to earn. But the next five really are a deeper dive. So, that's how I address that. I was like, "Okay, if you have that great super foundation, then here's where you're going to learn how to invest for retirement and wealth. Here's where you're going to learn how to make sure you get good with insurance, your net worth, getting your money team and estate planning." And so, I spoke to both of those levels by including both of them in the book. But I wanted to make sure that even if you're like, "You know what? I've got the super foundation," I really did deeper dives so you could learn something new, even if you were pretty good there. Or if you were ready to go to the next level and it was new to you, I really explained it in such a way that even if investing was new to you, that you could really learn.

Bobbi Rebell:

You did a great job. Where can people learn more about you and be in touch?

Tiffany Aliche :

So, you can learn more about me... I'm The Budgetnista on all social media platforms. And you can keep in touch and get the book at getgoodwithmoney.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one. As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup tip number two. Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends. April is Financial Literacy Month and I'm giving away a ton of incredible money books, including Tiffany's. Want one? All you have to do is DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and just say, "I'd love a book from a financial grownup." The authors that are on this podcast and their publishers are incredibly generous. And I can't wait to send out lots and lots of books.

Bobbi Rebell:

And by the way, I was so honored to have the Financial Grownup podcast on Real Simple's list of the top 10 best finance podcasts for beginners, investors and everyone, along with Tiffany and Mandi's Brown Ambition podcast and many more really fantastic shows. I'll share the article in the show notes, which you can see on my website, bobbirebell.com. And I hope you'll make the time to check out some of the other great money podcasts on the list.

Bobbi Rebell:

Big thanks to Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, for teaching us all how to be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell. But the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator, so, yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell:

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear Shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

Stay in touch on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter at @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

The best-selling author reveals what happened when her dad opened her mail and saw her credit card debt, and the surprising result when she and her husband cut their budget by 90 percent. Plus a preview of her new book: Your Turn: How to be an Adult. 

Julie’s Money Lesson:

Okay, the recliner. I'm starting to make a lot of money. I'm making enough that my husband is like, "How would you feel about me being a full-time artist?" And I was like, “Yes!”. I was supporting a family of four. My husband became a full-time artist and we started spending money. We're buying the nicer table. We're buying the nicer artwork. We're buying the nicer recliner. We realized that our set point of what we could just spend money on, in terms of discretionary spending, had just increased as our salary increased. We're looking around like we're making far more money than we ever had, but we're not saving a darn thing. What is up? And we realized that set point was just out of control. We were just dropping $1,000 without thinking about it. I read up, I talked to people and I learned this rule of if you want to save, you want to change your habits, you don't just try to start saving 5% or 10% if you've been saving nothing, you need to start saving for yourself first. You need to pay yourself first and decide what your savings goals are and set that to the side and then pay the rest of your bills. And that meant that our discretionary spending, we were going to cut by 95% or by 90%. If we were spending $1,000 on a recliner, when we had to buy the second recliner, it was going to be $100. And I was bummed because the second recliner was for me and my husband had the fancy recliner. We went to the cheaper furniture store and sat in recliners. And we had these down, sad faces, like “poor us” right? And I sound so privileged talking about this. I realize some people are like, "$100 is a lot of money." I'm just saying for me, it was a big cut. And then we found this recliner for $100 that is so comfortable. It is like the recliner of choice. You come to our house, everyone gravitates to it. It looks comfortable and it is comfortable. It's the kind of thing when you push the buttons and it starts to leans back, you're like, "Ah". It feels like a spa. And it's the cheapest thing in the whole downstairs of our house. Cut spending on something by 90% and see if you noticed.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - Julie jokes about how retirement is over romanticized and I couldn't agree more. Work is not just a path to retirement. We put in about a third of our 24 hour day, and for many of us, a lot more than those eight hours. If you hate what you're doing so much, that you are laser focused on retirement, consider refocusing that energy on enjoying your day to day more. If there's anything we've learned during the pandemic, it's that we should not assume things need to stay the same. Hit pause, give yourself some grownup tough love and fix it.

#2 - Let's get better about asking our friends and colleagues of different backgrounds and races about their experiences with money. Even though Julie clearly and candidly talks about how being a person of color impacted her money decisions in the book, as a white person I wasn't sure about asking Julie about it. I'm really glad I did. I'm not sure why I was so hesitant. And I hope we can all make time to both listen and share with each other as well. And in case you're wondering, as a white person in this country, it never even occurred to me that I needed to use a credit card to prove I belonged in a store. We need to be talking about this.

Get your copy of YOUR TURN: How to Be an Adult today!

Follow Julie!

• Instagram -@jlythcotthaims

• Twitter- @jlythcotthaims

• LinkedIn- Julie Lythcott-Haims

• Website- www.julielythcotthaims.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

It is officially spring. And that means graduation season is on. We here at The Financial Grownup Podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and the seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweaters all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup Gear also makes great gifts for Mother's Day, Father's Day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette, parties birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code graduation for a 15% discount. And thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and we truly appreciate your support.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

They handed me a check for the full amount, $3,900 plus change, and I felt so shamed and so just embarrassed. Here I am highly educated, a fancy degree from a fancy college and I'd managed to get so far in the hole. And I just cried. I just cried. Tears just rolled down my face.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a Financial Grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this. Hello, my grownup friends. It is April. I am so happy it's April. I don't know about you, but I just, I needed the better weather. Speaking to you from my home in New York City, where we've had a very brutal winter. I was fortunate. I got to go to Florida for a little bit, but we've been home for a while and this better weather could not come at a better time.

Bobbi Rebell:

And also, as some of you get to see, it's very much a work in progress, you see it on my Instagram, but I do get to go out and play golf, which is a really great way to spend time. Anyway, let's talk about this week's Financial Grownup. The adjective that I am going to use to describe her, delightful, Julie Lythcott-Haims is out with a new book, Your Turn: How to be an Adult. It is the much anticipated follow-up to her previous book, How to Raise an Adult, and not to be forgotten in between those, Real American: A Memoir, and a very personal book, which continues to grow in relevance.

Bobbi Rebell:

Julie is a former Stanford Dean. She left that position to pursue her passion, the career she'd always dreamed about, writing. You know what? It's working out okay. Julie's new book, Your Turn: How to be an Adult, is about more than just being a Financial Grownup, though she does have a chapter which is pretty much on the topic. Chapter eight, check it out. The book is about being a full on adult, but for the purposes of this podcast, she was a good sport and gets candid about her money blunders and victories. Here is Julie Lythcott-Haims. Julie Lythcott-Haims, you are a Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Bobbi, no one's ever said that to me before. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

You are very much a Financial Grownup. You're the author of Your Turn: How to be an Adult. Welcome.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I think I'm going to learn something.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm going to ask you to share a money story from the book, which has to do with credit card debt, but there's a really interesting angle that has to do with how you relate to your family, which is so appropriate when we talk about Financial Grownups.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. Thanks for pointing to something that's deeply personal. No, of course. I shared it in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's in the book, Julie.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I know. I'm trying to be vulnerable with my readers so that they can feel more safe and seen. Okay, picture me. I now 53, but in the story, I was maybe 22. I had amassed a lot of credit card debt in college. I was at Stanford University. The student union was basically lined with the desks of fakes who were there to offer me a credit card application. And I filled out maybe two of them. I had two credit cards. I would use my credit cards at the local shopping center. I would use them for groceries. I would use them for dinners and lunches out and coffee. I was just, I was spending money without having really learned the habits of how you keep track of your expenses and the whole interest part with credit cards. Long and short, I had accumulated about $3,900 in debt.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

This would be around 1990, 1991. Maybe double that, maybe like $6,000, $7,000 in today's dollars. I had no way to pay it off. My first job I'd earned $20,000 a year. It's hard to pay down a debt of $3,000 when you're only earning $20,000 gross. And I was headed off to law school and was living with my parents over the summer before law school started. And so my mail, including my bills, was being forwarded to my parents' address. Well, unbeknownst to me, after I had opened the latest credit card bill showing just how much I owed, my parents had read it as well.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

One night they just solemnly came toward me and said, "You're about to go start grad school and you're getting married. And we want you to start life with Dan", my boyfriend and soon to be husband, "with a financial clean slate. So here's a check." They handed me a check for the full amount, $3,900 plus change. And I felt so shamed. And so just embarrassed. Here I am highly educated, a fancy degree from a fancy college, and I'd managed to get so far in the hole and I just cried. I just cried. Tears just rolled down my face. They weren't judgmental. They weren't scolding me. They were offering me this gift.

Bobbi Rebell:

There's also another lesson for our listeners about relationships and how you communicate with your family.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. That really pushes the button, right? I think I was so ashamed that I had let them down by being this child of theirs who had been so irresponsible. And I think the lesson is had I only reached out sooner. I just kept digging the hole deeper and deeper by paying the minimum on my credit cards. If I had reached out to my parents six months earlier, or a year before, or two years before, I would probably never have gotten into such bad debt to start with.

Bobbi Rebell:

We're going to talk for your everyday money lesson about the fact that you guys like to splurge. But then there was sort of an aha moment. Tell us about the recliner.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Okay, the recliner. I'm starting to make a lot of money. I'm making enough that my husband, who's a designer, a product designer, user experience designer, is like, "How would you feel about me being a full-time artist?" And I was like, yes. Okay, that's how capable I was of supporting a family of four. My husband became a full-time artist and we started spending money. We're buying the nicer table. We're buying the nicer artwork. We're buying the nicer recliner.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

We realized that our set point of what we could just spend money on, in terms of discretionary spending, had just increased as our salary increased. We're looking around like we're making far more money than we ever had, but we're not saving a darn thing. What is up? And we realized that set point was just out of control. We were just dropping $1,000 without thinking about it. I read up, I talked to people and I learned this rule of if you want to save, you want to change your habits, you don't just try to start saving 5% or 10% if you've been saving nothing, you need to start saving for yourself first.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

You need to pay yourself first and decide what your savings goals are and set that to the side and then pay the rest of your bills. And that meant that our discretionary spending, we were going to cut by 95% or by 90%. If we were spending $1,000 on a recliner, when we had to buy the second recliner, it was going to be $100. And I was bummed because the second recliner was for me and my husband had the fancy recliner. We went to the cheaper furniture store and sat in recliners. And we had these down, sad faces, like poor us, we can only, right? And I sound so privileged talking about this. I realize some people are like,"$100 is a lot of money."

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I'm just saying for me, it was a big cut. And then we found this recliner for $100 that is so comfortable. It is like the recliner of choice. You come to our house, everyone gravitates to it. It looks comfortable and it is comfortable. It's the kind of thing when you push the buttons and it starts to leans back, you're like, "Ah". It feels like a spa. And it's the cheapest thing in the whole downstairs of our house.

Bobbi Rebell:

But it's good. It's working for you and you saved 90%.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

Nobody misses not spending the money.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

That's right.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's so great. And yeah, the tip is basically cuts something by 90% and see if you noticed.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Right. That's right.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That's a good one.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

100%. Yep.

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's talk more about this book. I devoured it. I have to say it's a robust book. This is a book that took a lot of research. I really encourage people, not only to read it, but to settle in with it because it really is worth your time. I picked out a few of the things that I'd like you to elaborate on within the book. And the first one kind of tag team to what we just talked about because there's a lot of talk about cutting your expenses so that you can retire early. That's one of the motivations for taking drastic action when it comes to spending. But you talk about the fact that retiring early is really over romanticized.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

The retiring early rhetoric tends to be, "My job sucks. I can't wait to retire. I'm just going to slog away working in this dungeon so that I can at 55 or 57 or 60, whatever, I can kick back and relax and travel." If that's the choice you're making, more power to you. But in the book, I'm trying to expand people's horizons and get folks to think maybe work doesn't have to feel so awful, such that all you want to do is leave work. Maybe you can lead a career life, a job life, a professional life that is intrinsically rewarding. It feels good. You're tapping into your talents, your strengths, your loves, you're growing. You're making enough money to pay your bills.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

And you're like, "Hey, I'm not eager to retire. I enjoy what I'm doing." And then to put a fine point on it, Bobbi, oftentimes when people retire, that is they cease doing that which they have always done, that which has been a huge part of their identity, they begin to wither psychologically. They begin to wither physically. They begin to wither in terms of their personal connections, because they're not making things with their hands, they're not doing as much with their brain and they're not seeing human beings as much. Retirement can often lead to a downward spiral. If one is not sort of healthy, hail and active in one's retirement, it can really be the beginning of the end.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I'm here to say, love the work you do, do the work you love, make sure it pays your bills and do it for as long as you can and build in the travel and the enjoyment and the fishing and all of that along the way, rather than waiting to live that life you imagined only after you've retired from some terrible job.

Bobbi Rebell:

Such a good reminder. Another thing that really stood out in the book that I went, oh, that I don't think about enough, when you talked about the spending, and this ties into your spending on the credit cards when you were younger especially, you talk about the fact that racial stereotypes played into your spending decisions. Tell us more.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Well, what listeners need to know is I'm a black and biracial woman, very light skin. But nevertheless, I think to the world, unambiguously of color. And most people figure out that I'm black. I, as a young person, had learned to ... I had internalized the hate that I had experienced along the way. Microaggressions, outright racism, these things were things I experienced in childhood. By the time I get to college and I'm at an elite college, I'm at Stanford University in Silicon Valley and I have these credit cards. I am using the credit cards when I'm in a store, in a fancy store, at the Stanford Shopping Center or in a nice restaurant as a way to demonstrate, I have credit, I am capable. You do not have to associate me with that stereotypical black person you think can't afford to purchase your goods, your food, because I have this credit card.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I was really deep in my internalized oppression that I was trying to not be the stereotypical black person. I was trying to be the model Negro, if you will, I'm using terms of stereotype. I have long since grown out of that behavior, but I will say, yeah, the credit card was like an appendage that was proving my ability or my worthiness or my right to be in these white environments. I overspent as a result, I'd be with friends at dinner and say like, you know what? I'll take care of the bill. And I'd plunk down my gold. How did I have a gold American Express card so young? But I did. They knew who they were preying on. It worked, right? I was like, I'll take care of the bill. And it was my way of showing, not just the restaurant, but my friends, I have money, even though I didn't necessarily have the money in the bank to pay that bill.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's a tough situation that society puts people in that mindset.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

We could talk about this a lot more, but this is a short podcast and I want to talk about one final theme. And that is that you really humanize a lot of our experiences with money by bringing stories of other people into the book. I wanted to ask you to share that a little bit.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. Thank you so much. The book is part memoir, me telling my lived experience, as you've just asked me about, me with some self-help tips, practical advice, but then I've got the stories of these other people in every chapter, a really diverse set of people from all walks of life in order to say to all readers, I'm trying to envision all of you as I write this. And the two stories in the money chapter are Wesley, who grew up working poor, put himself through community college, put himself into position of getting to drive for UPS and has been with UPS now for 35 years and will retire with a full pension from UPS.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

It hearkens back to days of yore, when you'd work for one employer all your life, and they were very loyal to you and you were loyal to them and unions were strong and that's not really the way much of the working world works these days, but there are plenty of industries that still do offer pensions, like the package driving industry, like UPS and police and law enforcement more broadly and schools. People who work for the government tend to have a pension. And this is a way to the middle class. Wesley has provided a life for himself, his wife and his son that is just many steps above what he grew up with financially. I wanted that story in there. I think it's a really important story about the American dream and that in many ways it is alive and well today.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

The other story is Denae, who's a dancer, got an undergraduate degree and a master's in dance. She's a professional dancer in New York City. She's done some amazing gigs, but dancing gigs come and they go. And when they go, she doesn't have income unless she supplements that with other work, which she does. Nevertheless, she had racked up with interest $50.000 in student loan debt, living in the most expensive city in America, New York, and or one of the most expensive, and she set herself a goal to get out of that credit card debt.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

She said, "I'm going to be debt three and three years." And she did it by being extremely frugal about her food, extremely thoughtful and mindful about her choices, about how she went places, what kinds of places she rented. She would even say when she was working a temp job in between dancing gigs, somebody took her food out of the fridge and started eating it. And she put a note on the refrigerators, "Hey, please don't eat my food. I'm paying down my student loans." And if that wasn't crystal clear, because she didn't know who did it, but she just knew I have to send this message.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

She stood up for herself, both to herself and to her friends and coworkers to say, "Hey, don't take my stuff. I'm paying off my student loan." Really brave. She did pay down that loan. Danced through the subway in a rented dress that she got from Rent the Runway with a big sign saying, "I'm debt-free. Hug me." And then she became a financial planner to help other people. When she's not dancing, she's now a certified financial planner person because she saw how many of her own peers, highly educated, didn't know enough about money. Here's to Denae, very much a resource for other people now that she is completely debt free.

Bobbi Rebell:

I am smiling ear to ear hearing that story. And there's so many other wonderful human stories in this book. We know it's going to be available everywhere. I won't have you say that, but where can people find out more about you and any virtual touring that you're going to be doing, my dear?

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thank you, Bobbi. The best way to be in touch with me is through my website, JulieLythcott-Haims.com. I'm sure Bobbi will put the spelling of that in the show notes. From there, you can follow me on social I'm @JLythcott-Haims everywhere. Maybe even Tik Tok, who knows, we'll see. I'm starting a membership club because I like to get real with people. I like to get really vulnerable and share. I know that that's the way we learn and grow and feel less lonely and I'm starting that. That's all online. Go to my website and just from there, you'll be able to follow me what I'm up to and all the virtual tour stuff will be on there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, thank you so much for this. Thank you for the book and thank you for joining us.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

You're amazing. Thanks for having me. And I actually feel more competent about my financial choices and what I've learned from them because you helped me think it through, by walking through these stories with me. Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:

They're all your stories. Thank you.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thanks.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, here's my take. Financial Grownup tip number one, Julie jokes about how retirement is over romanticized And I couldn't agree more. Work is not just a path to retirement. We put in about a third of our 24 hour day, and for many of us, a lot more than those eight hours. If you hate what you're doing so much, that you are laser focused on retirement, consider refocusing that energy on enjoying your day to day more. If there's anything we've learned during the pandemic, it's that we should not assume things need to stay the same. Hit pause, give yourself some grownup tough love and fix it.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial Grownup tip number two, let's get better about asking our friends and colleagues of different backgrounds and races about their experiences with money. Even though Julie clearly and candidly talks about how being a person of color impacted her money decisions in the book, as a white person I wasn't sure about asking Julia about it. I'm really glad I did. I'm not sure why I was so hesitant. And I hope we can all make time to both listen and share with each other as well. And in case you're wondering, as a white person in this country, it never even occurred to me that I needed to use a credit card to prove I belonged in a store. We need to be talking about this.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is Financial Literacy Month and I am giving away a ton of incredible books, including Julie's. You want one? All you have to do is DM me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1, and just say, "I'd love a book from a Financial Grownup". The authors that are on this podcast and their publishers are incredibly generous. And I can't wait to send out lots and lots of books. Everyone, pick up Your Turn: How to be an Adult and big thanks to Julie Lythcott-Haims for helping us all be Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creators. Yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life.

Bobbi Rebell:

And this year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go-to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free, while you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear Shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Acorn’s Chief Education Officer Jennifer Barrett shares her own “wake up’ call’ when she learned to think like a breadwinner, and gives us specific strategies to build wealth and create a path to have the rich life we all deserve. 

Jennifer’s Money Lesson-

I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth. So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Jennifer’s Money Tip-

I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbi’s Tips-

Financial Grownup Tip #1-

Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent.

Financial Grownup Tip #2-

Thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Get your copy of Think Like A Bread Winner by Jennifer Barrett

Follow Jennifer!

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• Website- www.jenniferbarrett.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbie Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good, and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more thaT I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle.

Bobbie Rebell: Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently. Like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup, or almost grownup, friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear, and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Jen Barrett: Deep down. I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life. I really thought my husband would be the main earner. So it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary, and then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises.

Bobbie Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbie Rebell: Hey, Grownups, this episode has been about five years in the making. I'll never forget sitting in a Midtown restaurant with my new friend, Jennifer Barrett. A mutual friend had introduced us thinking, "Well, you guys have a lot in common and maybe you guys will come up with some projects together." So we were brainstorming our two big ideas. For me, it was Financial Grownup and the idea of sharing money stories to inspire people to build the foundation for a wealthy life of choices, getting to live the life that they want. For Jen, it was the concept that we all had to, well, think like breadwinners. Jen had, and still has, I should say, what we call a big job. She really is the breadwinner and her job as the chief education officer at Acorns is intense and sometimes all consuming. But finally, her new book, Think Like a Bread Winner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less is coming out.

Bobbie Rebell:I can tell all of you it has been well worth the wait. I was honored that Jen asked me to contribute to this book and to endorse it along with David Bach, Eve Rodsky, the author of Fairplay, Farnoosh Torabi, who by the way wrote When She Makes More, so thinking along the same path, and Erin Lowry, who's been a frequent guest on this podcast, author of the Broke Millennial books series, and many more. In our interview, Jen Barrett shares the story that started it all when she realized what she didn't want to admit. If she wanted to get what she wanted to get, she was going to have to start thinking like a breadwinner. Here is Jennifer Barrett.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen Barrett, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jen Barrett: Thanks so much for having me.

Bobbie Rebell: I'm so excited to talk to you about your new book. So many years in the making, we've been talking about this for years. It's finally here. Think Like A Breadwinner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less. By the way, Jen, it's already getting reviews that are amazing. This one I'm going to read to people. It's from Ladders, which is a career website. "Jennifer Barrett's manifesto for working women transcends its goal by being more than a finance book, but a testament that anyone anywhere can achieve their goals with the right advice." Not bad, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, that was a nice review. It was nice to read.

Bobbie Rebell: You're very modest.

Jen Barrett: I know. You're so nervous. You're on pins and needles before the book comes out. You're like, "I hope they like it." So it was really nice to read that.

Bobbie Rebell: Well, I got a sneak peek of the book because I got to endorse it so everyone can read my blurb when they get the book. Before we talk more about it, though, you did bring with you a money story, which really inspired the book so many years ago. Tell us your money story, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, well, there's a material difference between being able to cover the bills and handle a budgets and building wealth that supports your life and the future you want. That difference became super clear to me just after we'd had our oldest son. At the time, I was in my early 30s and we were sharing a small one bedroom apartment with our toddler who was about 18 months old. One night I was pacing back and forth with him, trying to get him back to sleep, and I think it just hit me so hard in that moment that we were in a situation that was just completely unsustainable.

Jen Barrett: I had this moment of, "Wait a second. I thought I was doing everything right financially." I had a little 401k. I had a little bit of savings. I was paying half the bills. But what I realized was that I hadn't been putting money away for the things that were most important to me, and that was being able to have another child, to afford to buy a place or even to move into a bigger apartments because we lived in Brooklyn, which is not cheap. I did some real soul searching and asked myself, "Why didn't I make those choices with my money to save more and to invest more?" I realized that subconsciously I had been thinking that my husband would take the lead there. In that moment, I think it finally dawned on me how precarious an assumption that is. So I asked myself in the days that followed, "How would the choices I make with my money and my career be different if I had been raised to think like a breadwinner?"

Jen Barrett: That's what sort of set me off on a whole new journey and brought me to where I am today, more than a decade later, which is a much better place financially. We have a larger home. I helped with most of the down payment. We have two lovely sons now. I've had both a career and been able to build the kind of wealth that I couldn't have even imagined 12 years ago when I had that wake up call.

Bobbie Rebell: Tell us more about what you were doing before you had that wake up call, what kind of job you had. Because you had a really good job that a lot of people would be very, very envious of and really admire. I mean, you were high achieving and then the things that you looked for in the next job, besides obviously paying more. I know there was a lot of soul searching about sort of what people would think, because we're both journalist backgrounds, there's a lot of judgment there.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, and I think that's an important point is just because you have a good job doesn't mean that you have your finances together. You can be a professional success and feel like a financial failure. I interviewed more than 100 women for the book and I did find that to be the case with a surprising number of women who were otherwise very successful. So I think I was in sort of the same situation but with one crucial distinction, which is I was an editor at Newsweek at that point a pretty big weekly news magazine. It has since sort of gone under and been reborn and it's not quite the same as it used to be, but it was a great job. I really looked like I had it all together from the outside, but I was really living paycheck to paycheck for the most part.

Jen Barrett: We say paycheck to paycheck, but what I was was broke, right? I only had a few hundred dollars in my savings. I was still paying down some credit card debt. So if you looked at my actual net worth, I was in negative territory and I really wasn't making the kinds of choices or making the kinds of money that would allow me to support the life that I really wanted. One big reason for that, which is almost embarrassing to admit now and I've since changed my approach with this significantly, is that I had never negotiated my salary. So when I got the job at Newsweek, I was just so thrilled to be hired there I literally did not even think to negotiate. I do think part of that was that I was so excited to be hired there, but the other part of it was deep down I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life.

Jen Barrett: I really thought my husband would be the main earner and so it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary. Then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises. So one other critical moment for me was I came back from maternity leave and I found out that someone had been hired who had just a few more years experience than me in a very similar role and they were making 50% more than me. That moment was like ... It was so crushing that I vowed I would never ever make that mistake again and I was going to negotiate the hell out of every job offer and raise that I got from that point on, and it made me sort of reassess this idea I had about loyalty and about employers just taking care of you because you're doing a great job. It was a real wake up call in that sense too, where I realized I need to advocate for myself. I need to show my value. I need to ask for it and not assume that I'm going to get it just because I'm doing a good job.

Bobbie Rebell: So you set out to get a job that paid more. Tell us what that job was and how that onboarding went.

Jen Barrett: Yeah. So I was hired in my first job in management. I became the director of a health site. It was part of NBC. It was called iVillage Health. It was a huge site at the time. I think one of the top five largest health sites for women. It was a dramatic increase in the amount of responsibility I had, but also in my salary. So I ended up making almost double what I had ... Actually, no. More than double what I had been making at Newsweek and in between there I freelanced, and when I was freelancing, I really understood that I had undervalued myself and my skills because I was able to make a lot more freelancing than I had in my full-time job at Newsweek. So that was also a realization and a validation of the fact that the skills that I had were valuable. Then with this job, it both provided a lot more income. It allowed me to get the mortgage and it also put me on the management track, which I have been on ever since.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what was your husband thinking while this was going on? Did you have talks about this?

Jen Barrett: We did and I think part of it was when he and I first started dating, he was working at a startup at the time and was making a lot more than I was as a reporter. But I think that's where some of the assumptions sort of got set in my head. The startup went under and then he moved back to journalism. So he took a pretty big pay cut and suddenly our salaries were much closer than they have been. But I think in my head, I still kept telling myself that that was a temporary situation. I still expected him to earn considerably more than me, even as the evidence started to mount that that may not be the case, particularly with both of us being in journalism. We did have some discussions around that and in particular, when I got that job in management at that point, he was on contract.

Jen Barrett: So we realized that my income and my income prospects were probably greater at that particular point. Certainly I was the one who had secured the mortgage in part because I had a full-time job and it's very difficult when you are on contract to get approved. So we realized that my income was really critical to the household and so that launched a whole series of discussions about how is this going to work. I'm not going to say it was easy. We had to have a lot of really difficult discussions because I was pregnant with our second son when I moved into the breadwinner role. In my mind, again, I thought, "Oh, this is sort of a temporary situation where I'm going to take on this really demanding role so we can get the mortgage. I'll keep doing this."

Jen Barrett: Then I found I really enjoyed it. I realized I really am quite ambitious and so I wasn't sure I wanted to give up that role, but at the same time, for a while I was also trying to be the primary caregiver and that, as anyone who has tried to do both can tell you, is almost impossible to sustain. So it led to some really emotional and candid conversations with my husband about what role are we each going to take here and how are we going to divide all the responsibilities, household responsibilities, caregiving, breadwinning, in a way that feels fair to each of us?

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what is the lesson from your story?

Jen Barrett: I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth.

Jen Barrett: So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Bobbie Rebell: You also brought with you in everyday money tip.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbie Rebell: It's a very good gut check and I think it's something that sounds easy, but we don't really do that a lot. We don't usually just kind of pause and sit down and really think about that and maybe even write down a few things that we want to do. I find when you write things down, sometimes they stick a little bit better. I don't know. All right, we got to shift gears because I don't want to run out of time and we have to talk about Think Like A Breadwinner because this is a book that has been in the making for quite a long time, because it is so well researched, Jen. You spent a lot of time doing the work here and the book is chock-full of statistics that are ... Some of them would just blow my mind. If you could share with us just one statistic that's sort of your elevator pitch to get this book, what is that one stat that stands out?

Jen Barrett: Well, I think one of the most significant stats is that half of moms in this country today are contributing at least 40% of the total household earnings. That's according to the latest Institute for Women's Policy Research report. That just reinforces the fact that women's income is absolutely critical right now. I think we saw that when women started dropping out of the workforce. We could see what the impact was going to be, not just on families, but on the economy.

Bobbie Rebell: A lot of this book was already done before the pandemic, but you were still finishing it up during the pandemic. What is in the book now that would not have been pre-pandemic?

Jen Barrett: The pandemic reminded us of how important it is to take charge of our finances and to build the kind of savings and wealth that provide financial security and help us weather tough times like this. So that message of taking care of yourself and putting money into an investment account and building wealth to support you not just now but in the future is more important than ever.

Bobbie Rebell: So well said. Jen, where can people catch up with you? I know that your book is going to be everywhere.

Jen Barrett: I hope so. You can find me at jenniferbarrett.com and you can read more about the book there, and then I'm on social media all over the place. It's @jbarrettNYC on Instagram, Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn.

Bobbie Rebell: All the places.

Jen Barrett: Oh, the places. Clubhouse. Yes.

Bobbie Rebell: Yes, Clubhouse. Let's not forget that. Thanks, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Thank you.

Bobbie Rebell: Here we go. Financial Grownup tip number one. Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent. Financial Grownup tip number two, thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Bobbie Rebell: One thing I do, I always try to think of new revenue streams. My latest is Grownup Gear. You can see more about it at grownupgear.com. I hope you'll support it by checking out the merchandise. It's perfect for all of your grownup milestones. Gifts for graduation, new parents, mother's day, father's day, a new home, birthdays, or just celebrating being a grownup and kind of owning it. Discount codes available on my Instagram @bobbirebell1. Another reason to follow me on Instagram, we will be giving away copies of Jen's book and of other authors on the show. This spring, so many amazing authors are on tap and they're generously giving gifts to our Grownup community. I also want to invite everyone to join our weekly Friday at 1:00 PM Clubhouse chats in the Money Tips For Grownups club. DM me on Instagram if you need and invite to Clubhouse. Big thanks to Jen Barrett for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbie Rebell: The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books.

Bobbie Rebell: To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Susan McPherson, author of the new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships shares 5 specific tips to connect and intentionally leverage your network of friends and colleagues. 

Susan’s 5 Easy Tips for Daily Connection

#1 - Spend a little bit of time reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

#2 - Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener. For those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila! No more FOMO.

#3 - Ask questions. To truly build connection, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

#4- Let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and more reliable fashion.

#5- Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - Create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it.

#2 - Make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day.

Get your copy of The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Business Relationships today!

Follow Susan!

• Instagram - @susanmcp1

• Twitter- @susanmcp1

• LinkedIn- Susan McPherson

• Website- www.mcpstrategies.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: It is officially spring and that means graduation season is on. We here at the Financial Grownup Podcast, have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have durable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and the seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts, all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup gear also makes great gifts for mother's day, father's day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette parties, birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code graduation for a 15% discount, and thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast and we truly appreciate your support.

Susan McPherson: This is a way of leading yourself professionally and personally, to be of support because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey friends, today's show is going to put a smile on your face. This week's financial grownup is my dear friend, Susan McPherson. She is back to share her pandemic project, and that is her new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships. Susan is the founder and CEO of McPherson Strategies, a communications consultancy that focuses on the intersection of brands and social impact. When not in quarantine, Susan's a prominent speaker at top conferences around the globe. She's also a contributor to the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company and Forbes, and you've probably seen or heard her or read her work in the media everywhere from NPR to CNN, to USA today, the New Yorker, New York Magazine and The Los Angeles Times and many more. She is also an angel investor, and if we're going to cut to the chase, she is huge on social media. By the way, fun fact, Susan has run six marathons.

Bobbi Rebell: Her book, for us, could not come at a more perfect time. As I read the book, I got so many ideas of things that I can do to specifically enjoy spending time with people and frankly, being a better friend and being a more effective person in my business and professional relationships and just enjoying it all more. And a reminder, you're going to be tempted to take notes but please focus your attention on the gems that Susan shares. We've got a summary for you right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. Just go to the Financial Grownup Podcast dropdown menu and when you click on Susan's episode, you'll see that summary, along with all the links you need and below that, a full transcript. Here is Susan McPherson. Susan McPherson, welcome back. You are a financial grownup. We're so happy to have you here again.

Susan McPherson: Bobbi, I couldn't pick a better place to be.

Bobbi Rebell: We are going to be talking about your new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships and what better time than now when we are just on the cusp, I hope, oh please, I hope of getting out of this debacle that has been quarantine, COVID-19 and the last year, right?

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. But I have to say, if anything, over this last year, one thing we all have realized is how much we miss human connection.

Bobbi Rebell: So true, and you are the ultimate connector. I mean, literally so funny because at the beginning of this book, you talk about the fact that some people have called you a human CRM app and that's so true.

Susan McPherson: It is something I have loved all my life so what better than to excel at something that you love doing?

Bobbi Rebell: Well as someone that has personally benefited from your generosity and your graciousness and your giving nature, I can just, first of all, attest to the truth of that. You did bring with you five practical tips for daily connection with colleagues, neighbors, and others in your community and network. That's the formal name, but you know what? Really we're talking about how to reset after everything that's been going on. What's your first tip?

Susan McPherson: Spend a little bit of time now, reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Do some old fashion navel-gazing and think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said, what is your second tip?

Susan McPherson : Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener, and I will say for those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila, no more FOMO.

Bobbi Rebell: I love that, and it reminds me, and we're going to digress just for a moment of part of your book, where you talk about creating rituals, something our mutual friend, Erica Keswin talks about in her latest book, but that could be part of getting that done, of JOMO.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. It doesn't all have to be sitting around, having cocktails. You can gather groups for taking a walk and talk. You can gather groups for a cooking class. Again, we've been doing this in some shape, way or form online, but now you have an opportunity to actually potentially maybe by the summer in small groups, doing it in real life.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, we all can't wait for that. What is your third tip?

Susan McPherson: Well, and this is a big component of the book and it's ask. Ask questions. To truly build connection, first, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

Bobbi Rebell: And one underlying theme in your book, by the way, is the importance of curiosity.

Susan McPherson: Yes. And to me, it's a drug and a positive drug because it is curiosity that leads you to the path to understand and appreciate people for where they are and see people, and most importantly, that curiosity helps you then to be able to follow up and be supportive.

Bobbi Rebell: Which is another big theme in your book, and that brings us to your fourth tip.

Susan McPherson: Yes, well, it's important of course, to ask, but we won't be successful at asking if we don't know how to listen. So number four is, let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and probably more reliable fashion.

Bobbi Rebell: That really is everything, and so let's talk about following up and let's get to your fifth tip.

Susan McPherson: My fifth tip is essentially that. Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective. I want to just caveat all of this, Bobbi, this isn't about putting everyone else before you, but this is a way of leading yourself, professionally and personally, to be of support, because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, and you know this Bobbi, you support so many women and men and probably children. That notion, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: That reminds me of some advice that your father gave you growing up that really still resonates with you and really hit home for me.

Susan McPherson: Yes, and that was to always ask first how you can be of help, before stepping up and doing.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah and what would be an example of how someone could put that into, I mean, what I love about this book also is it's so specific and practical, give us some examples first of that, of how someone would put that into their life. Then I'm going to try to squeeze it in one more question before we wrap.

Susan McPherson: Just a week ago, a dear friend of mine introduced me to a lovely woman who is trying to expand her portfolio. She and I had a 30 minute conversation, literally an hour after a conversation, I was able to introduce her to the executive director of an organization whose board I serve on, and literally the next day, she had an opportunity to actually lead a workshop for that organization. So that all happened within 24 hours. I didn't ask for anything in return. Having the conversation with this wonderful woman named Natalie, after that conversation, I was so impressed that I introduced her, again to the executive director of a board whose organization I serve on and was able to facilitate an opportunity for her. That was a perfect example of how it wasn't a huge lift on my part yet it enormously helped Natalie and it also helped the organization for which the board I serve on.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely, and it also goes to the fact that we get so busy in our lives, that we sometimes go through phases where we feel like we have to say no to even have time to breathe, and then you have to balance that, because you also have some good advice, you say, "Always take the meeting." Tell us more about that and why that is so important.

Susan McPherson: Well, I have the proof in the pudding for that, and that is, my company is now eight years old and seven years in, I realized that 98% of our business had been inbound, which is pretty remarkable for a consulting firm. I realized that in my twenties and thirties, all those meetings I took, that were yes, challenging at times because of course I was busy, those people came back 20, 30 years later, and it wasn't like when I was 25, I was saying, "Oh, I'm going to be calling on you in 2020 when I have a company, to see if you'll buy services from me." It was not even a glimmer in my brain. So every single person we meet is a conduit to something else, to someone else, to something new, to learn something about ourselves, and if we don't open those doors and we don't take those meetings, we are missing tremendous opportunities. I fervently believe that, and I live that every day.

Bobbi Rebell: It's so true. So many major things in my life have happened by almost chance meetings, little meetings that you didn't think were going to be meaningful, and then they do end up having a huge impact sometimes right then, as in the case you described earlier and sometimes not for years later, and that's also important. They're true friendships. The final thing I wanted to just touch on is you talk about expressing gratitude and that's something that sometimes gets lost in the hustle and bustle. I've certainly been guilty of not always properly thanking everyone that's done amazing things for me. It's tough. We get so busy and so distracted and are just keeping up with the world, certainly as we get back into, hopefully some sense of normalcy now. Talk to me more about expressing gratitude and specific ways that people can do that.

Susan McPherson : Don't overthink it. Sometimes just a quick phone call, a quick text, a DM, shining a light on socials, showcasing someone else. Those are all very immediate, quick and simple and easy. You don't have to go so far as sending flowers or sending cookies, although that's certainly a wonderful thing to do, but whatever is going to be the most expedient way, sometimes, is the best way, because that's the way it'll get done. But I think it's important to plan one bit of gratitude, every single day, and that includes gratitude for yourself.

Bobbi Rebell: And as you mentioned earlier, it's important to give, but it's also important to be practical and also look out for yourself.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely.

Bobbi Rebell: Susan, this has been so wonderful. Tell us more about where people can find out more about you. We know your book is going to be on sale, literally everywhere. So I hope people will pick it up and continue to get all of these incredible gems. It is very readable. I will tell you that.

Susan McPherson: Aww.

Bobbi Rebell: It's precise, specific, practical in all the best ways, and yet it has the warmth of your personality in it. Where can people follow up with you, once they get the book?

Susan McPherson: First of all, I am glowing. Thank you so much. Hearing that from you means the world to me, Bobbi. I have so much respect for you personally, professionally. Thank you. You can find me at my company's website, McPStrategies.com. I'm on all the social platforms with the name @SusanMcP1 and of course the book can be purchased at your local bookstores or any of the major online booksellers, and I am grateful for you to give it a shot.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Susan McPherson: Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: All right, guys, that was an awesome interview. Here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one, create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it, but you get the idea and by the way, feel free to send me your suggestions for how I can implement Susan's methodology for this, but we're going to go with the phone for now.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two, make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day. So I want to ask you guys, what little things make big impacts on your days? DM me on Instagram, @BobbiRebell1, I would love more ideas. And while you're at it, help me give away some incredible books. We are giving away copies of books from the incredible authors featured on The Financial Grownup Podcast this year, including Susan's. In order to win, you just have to take a screenshot of the podcast when you're listening to it on your phone, post it on social, so on Instagram. That's @BobbiRebell1, tag me, that's what I mean to say and DM me, to make sure that I see it.

Bobbi Rebell: And we also have a new way to win. If you are on Clubhouse, please join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Then DM me on Instagram and let me know that you joined so I don't miss it and would like to be entered to win a book. Also a reminder, if you are looking for fun and unique gifts for graduation, mother's day, father's day, birthdays, or just frankly, to treat yourself, which we all deserve, take a look at our new grownupgear.com store, the profits there help to support this free podcast. And again, we really appreciate that support. Go out, treat yourself, maybe some friends through a copy of Susan's book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships. Big thanks to Susan, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell: The financial grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator, so yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show, right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life, and this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup List. Go to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com, and if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Author Lindsey Pollak watched her thriving speaking career hit a wall when the pandemic hit a year ago. The career and workplace expert realized she had ignored her own advice, and had all her eggs in one basket. Lindsey gets refreshingly candid about how bad it got, what she did, and how we can all do better. 

Financial Grownup Tip #1: Social media is more than social. Certainly during the pandemic depending on your business,  it has become an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the ones that fit your business. It’s not just about being social- it is about career success -and sometimes survival as well.

Financial Grownup Tip #2- If you are on social media- don’t forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in clubhouse- raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only but I do have invites so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on clubhouse- Money Tips for Grownups. I’d love to connect with you there. 

Buy your copy of Recalculating : Navigate Your Career Through The Changing World of Work.

Follow Lindsey!

• Twitter- @LindseyPollak

• LinkedIn- Lindsey Pollak

• Website- lindseypollak.com

• Instagram- @LindseyPollak

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript-

Bobbi Rebell: Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes. And thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Lindsey Pollak : I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures in speaking bookings. And my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to financial grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: It's been a year guys. If you want to get technical, it's been a year and about a week. Although most of us, frankly, lost count of the days and didn't even know which day of the week it was for a while. The pandemic put so many of our lives on hold and so many of our businesses in the tank.

Bobbi Rebell: For people who make their living talking to people in-person, they went from thriving to, well, there's no cute pun here. The business died. There was nothing there. For my friend, Lindsey Pollak, who is a top speaker and bestselling author, ironically in the career space, her career literally went poof last March with no end in sight.

Bobbi Rebell: This was literally unchartered territory for pretty much anyone alive these days. Two weeks to stop the spread was one thing, but getting back to packed rooms with over 1,000 people as she was used to, yeah, crickets. Even now. Lindsey agreed to share her experience with us in the hopes that many of us can at least relate to and get some solace from her experiences.

Bobbi Rebell: She also has, as she always has, great and specific advice on how we can better be prepared for the future and the unimaginable. She also managed to write a fantastic book in quarantine. It is called Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work. we do a little sneak peak at the end of our interview. Here is Lindsey Pollak. Lindsey Pollak, you are a financial grownup and welcome back to the show.

Lindsey Pollak : It is an honor to be back for the second time. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk about your new book, which was written in quarantine and has a lot of really relevant advice for anyone who is thinking of recalculating. That's also the name of the book. But first you brought us a very relevant story that happened to you just when quarantine was starting. And sadly, too many of us can relate to this. Tell us your money story, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I'd be happy to. So, like many people in March of 2020, everything stopped and everything changed. And I think we hear about food service people and certain jobs that you know would be destroyed by the pandemic or pushed off. Professional speakers were in that category.

Lindsey Pollak : I had at that time, been doing about 70 to 80 live speaking events per year. And I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures. I can't even say it. I stumble on the words. I lost six figures in speaking bookings and my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: Just to explain how speaking works, you had deposits. How does the contract work? Did you have to return all the deposits or did they reschedule or was it just gone?

Lindsey Pollak : So, you know what's interesting is, my contract said that the deposits were nonrefundable and that we would make our best efforts to reschedule if something got canceled. Several people took me up on that, I will say, and let me keep the deposits.

Lindsey Pollak : Several requested for their own financial difficulties to return it and I made the decision to do that, to keep the relationships because I understood that people were in really tough times. So I did return them. So it sort of went beyond the contract. And for anything that had been booked, but not yet paid, of course, that just disappeared. Bobbi Rebell: So then what?

Lindsey Pollak : It was tough. And I'll tell you a couple of things, because it's a financial podcast. Number one, just by luck, about a year before my bookkeeper had said, "You really need to have a credit line for your business." I had contacted my bank, Chase Bank, and gotten a very significant credit line because I have good credit that I'm extremely proud of. It's one of the proudest things in my life that I have good credit. And I got a significant six-figure credit line, which saved me.

Lindsey Pollak : I paid it all back ultimately over time, but having that fund to dip into to make sure that I could continue to pay my assistant and my rent and so on. I cut back on expenses tremendously, and I started reaching out. And it's really interesting as I didn't have a plan for where the money would come from, but I've always relied on the fact that relationships are where opportunities come from.

Lindsey Pollak : And I just called people, checked in, "How are you doing? What's going on? How are you?" I mean, for about four weeks, it was just, "Oh my gosh, what's happening?" And slowly but surely, a relationship with a UK firm that had been pending for a while, took off. Slowly but surely, people who had never booked for years were like, "Hey, could you do a session on how to work remotely?" And I was like, "Yes, I can." That had been one slide in my presentation. And now, suddenly that became a presentation.

Lindsey Pollak : It was nowhere near what I had projected for the year, but the year turned out okay. And this miracle moment was on May 5th. I'll never remember. I got an email from my agent about something totally different. And at the very bottom of the email, she said, "And by the way, do you think you might want to write a book during this pandemic experience? I feel like you might have something to say." And that one sentence turned into Recalculating, which we're here today to talk about.

Bobbi Rebell: So perfect. So you basically pivoted from doing speaking to going back to book writing, which you were always doing. This is I think number four, number five? I can't keep track of you, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I think of them like children and I had been writing a book every five years. And I had written the remix last year in 2019. And I say it's like my accidental fourth child. I didn't mean to have a child so quickly after my third, but so it happens. Bobbi Rebell: Well, it's a wonderful book. We're going to talk about it soon, but tell me what is the lesson for our listeners from this?

Lindsey Pollak : It's something that I think is such a cliche, but true. Necessity is the mother of invention. I was a speaker. I was like, I'm a speaker. That's what I do. And I realized I can't only be a speaker.

Lindsey Pollak : And when I look at the people I most admire in my world, people like you, it's do you have a podcast? Do you have online courses? Do you have newsletters? Do you get paid to write? And what I remembered is sometimes you go back to basics, which I think is the other lesson.

Lindsey Pollak : When I was first starting out, I didn't make enough money from speaking. So I was freelance writing. I was coaching. I was doing resume reviews. I was doing anything I could. And I realized I have to get back into that mindset that I'm not "just a speaker." And that's what led to these other opportunities.

Lindsey Pollak : Now, I don't want to say it was easy. I don't want to say I wasn't scared, or I didn't stay up at night, or I wasn't uncomfortable dipping into my savings or my credit line, which I did do. But ultimately, what got me through it, was going back to basics and realizing I have to get creative.

Bobbi Rebell: Looking back, what would you have done differently in terms of setting up your life? Would you have diversified your business more in advance?

Lindsey Pollak : Yes. Sometimes success is not so good because you get so deep into one area that you put all your eggs in one basket. And what's really funny is I've advised job seekers for years, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Even if you're happily employed, keep your network going. Don't just apply for jobs in one field." And I had to take my own advice.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said. And it's good to know that even people far along and super successful in their careers, sometimes have to take their own advice, which they move past. I love this. You brought with you an everyday money tip and I'm going to give a little bit of a spoiler. One part of this made you $2,000 in just extra cash. Tell us your everyday money tip because this is so fascinating. I had no idea this was such a big thing.

Lindsey Pollak : Okay. So at my heart, I grew up in Norwalk, Connecticut, the burbs. I am just a suburban girl. And in my high school, I remember they had all these categories, best dressed, best looking, all that. There was informal stuff that we would just send around to be silly.

Lindsey Pollak : And mine was most likely to drive a station wagon in the suburbs. Which by the way, I have not done, but my money tip was to clip coupons. And in the old days, I remember going to the grocery store with my mom and she had an envelope. Right. And she would hand the coupons to the checkout person. And apparently, I used to play that at home, handing the coupons to the checkout person. Bobbi Rebell: I think we all did.

Lindsey Pollak : I think we all did. Right. Bobbi Rebell: My mom definitely had the coupons. And a whole organizer. There was a coupon organizer box.

Lindsey Pollak : Oh yeah. A little box. Bobbi Rebell: And she would organize what she was going to bring that day. And you were waiting for the double coupon day.

Lindsey Pollak : And here we are, talking about personal finances on a podcast. So, the modern day version of that, it used to be called Ebates. Now it's called Rakuten. Rakuten is I have this little widget on my browser and on my phone that tells me that I can get cash back if you shop through Ebates or Rakuten.

Lindsey Pollak : And over the past several years, I've made $2,000 using that little widget to get little discounts on things. And yeah, of course, I look like, "Ooh, that's fine. I can get a little bit more cash back than if I shop at such and such." And it's funny. I always did it. My husband would make fun of me like, "Ooh, you got your $7.53 check today." And then I looked and I saw, wow, over a few years, I've made $2,000 back and that's real money.

Bobbi Rebell: And that was basically on money you were probably going to spend anyway. Now you might've chosen one retailer over another because of it, but still, it's money.

Lindsey Pollak : Target is my favorite one. The Target app I've saved, I think $110. We've been quarantining in Connecticut. And I think I've saved $110 this year, which is only $10 a month, but hey, I used that credit for other good stuff.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, absolutely. So I have in my hand, my early copy. This is one of my favorite perks of doing this podcast. I have an early copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work, which you wrote during quarantine. So, tell us what is different now, both in quarantine and hopefully, very soon as we emerge from quarantine, in terms of how we recalculate our careers and our life?

Lindsey Pollak : The first thing to think about is, recalculating is not one thing that you do in a moment and then it's over. Right. It's not like a fork in the road. I think we all need to be re-skilling, up-skilling pivoting, diversifying all the things that we talked about in my own story.

Lindsey Pollak : What we've learned through COVID is you cannot coast. Right. You can't just say, "Well, I'm comfortable where I am and I'm going to keep moving forward." You probably never could. But I think we all know that now more than ever.

Lindsey Pollak : And a really important piece of that, that I know you're so good at and is important to you, is if you're not getting good at virtual communication, and remote communication, and email, and texting, and Slack, and social media, you are not keeping up with the tools that you need to have to succeed now and into the future. It's no longer a nice to have. It's an absolute must have skill.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes, I am always learning different things. I mean, for example, right now, I started this merch store and I had to learn all this stuff about how to connect it to Instagram and so on. But it's actually really fun and you feel very accomplished. So, technical skills and learning new ways of doing business is very important.

Bobbi Rebell: And on that note, a lot of people have questions about how to use social media differently while we're in this pandemic, because it does become more important when we can't be social in person. Right.

Lindsey Pollak : Absolutely. But I think there are parallels. And so, the parallels are you've got to remember that each social network, if you're looking at it from a professional standpoint, like networking to find a job or new clients. Just like it's different to chat with people at the supermarket than to chat with people at a black tie gala, you have to see the social networks as different. You can't be the same or use the same language and style, or even necessarily profile photo, on Twitter as you would on LinkedIn, or on Instagram, or on Clubhouse, or what have you. So, number one is to acknowledge that they're all different.

Lindsey Pollak : Number two is I think you do use them in the same way you would in-person networking. So, you and I, let's say, may bond on Facebook because you're wearing a cute shirt or I see a cute picture of your son. I'm not going to say, "Do you have a job." Or, "Can I send you my resume?" I'm going to say, "Hey, great photo. Hey, do you want to get together and talk sometime about work stuff?" It's an entry point, just as if I saw you on the sidelines of a soccer game, we would talk about the game. I wouldn't start to launch into my sales pitch.

Lindsey Pollak : So, I think that social media should be seen as these personal moments where you might "bump into somebody." And then you take it to the next level off of that social network to have the professional conversation. LinkedIn is a bit different. I think LinkedIn is like a professional conference where people go, no one's going to be offended if you try to network professionally on LinkedIn. That's the point. It's like being at a conference. But for all the other sites, it's about building and solidifying real, authentic, personal relationships. And then you take the conversation elsewhere after that. Bobbi Rebell: And what do you think about Clubhouse? Because you're very successful on Clubhouse. I love dropping in on the rooms that you're in and the conversations. What's your take and your advice to people on how to use Clubhouse?

Lindsey Pollak : So that's a really good example of like, "I don't know, I'll give it a try. This is a new thing, and I'm going to try it." And I wasn't sure. To me, it's like a mix between listening to the radio and dropping in on a podcast or a webinar. But sometimes you get to talk.

Lindsey Pollak : What's absolutely amazing to me is how much free advice is there. I'm providing it myself. I do a career chat every Wednesday at one o'clock with a bunch of career experts and people just ask their questions. And what's really cool is, not only do we give our thoughts or advice, but other people on the call can raise their hand and say, "Hey, I know somebody." Or, "Oh, I have an idea for you."

Lindsey Pollak : And so, what's happening is like these conference moments in the Clubhouse app. So I'd really encourage people to give it a try. And if it's not for you, it's not for you, but it's just another tool where you might bond. And just funny things like bumping into each other. I was on it yesterday. I went to graduate school in Australia at this school called Monash University, which is just outside of Melbourne. Most people have never heard of it.

Lindsey Pollak : There was a woman on the call who had gone to Monash University and had moved to the United States. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, you're kidding." And we met on Clubhouse. So you just never know what kinds of moments like that can happen wherever you decide to show up, but you have to decide to show up.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely. So, everyone should follow Lindsey on Clubhouse. And also me. I'm on Clubhouse too.

Lindsey Pollak : Yeah. Bobbi Rebell: And I'm still learning the ropes, but I'm having a great time on it too. So, please follow both of us. Your book Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work is going to be available everywhere, March 23rd. Where can people get in touch with you?

Lindsey Pollak : So my website is my name, lindseypollock.com. I'll spell it for you because it's a doozy. L-I-N-D-S-E-Y-P-O-L-L-A-K. I'm the only one in the world who spells it that exact way. And I'd be delighted to connect with anyone there or on social media.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Lindsey Pollak : Thank you, Bobbi. Bobbi Rebell: Here we go. Financial grownup tip number one. Social media is a lot more than social these days. Certainly during the pandemic, depending on your business, it became an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the onesthat fit your business. It's not just about being social. It is about career success and sometimes career survival as well.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two. If you are on social media, don't forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in Clubhouse, raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only, but I do have invites, so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on Clubhouse, Money tips for Grownups. I'd love to connect with you there.

Bobbi Rebell: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a screenshot and share it on social media. And if you tag me, @bobbirebell1, that will also enter you into our book and merch giveaways. I also want to encourage everyone to pre-order a copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work by Lindsey Pollak. It is a bit complicated, but it really helps Lindsey if you pre-order it.

Bobbi Rebell: And this episode is dropping about a week before it's released, so you still have a week to get it done. And it is truly a big deal to Lindsey, so thank you for doing that. I promise you will love it. And big thanks to my friend, Lindsey Pollak, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell: The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell: Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell: While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram, @bobbirebell1, and on Twitter,

@ bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcast. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Now that we may be settling in to work from home for the long haul, it’s time to optimize our space and take out the stress so we can function like grownups. Bill Hirsch,  Architect and Author of The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live

5 Easy Ways to Center Your Home on a Small Budget

• Step One - Take the Homebody Quiz

• Step Two - Work to improve the “earth-grounding” of your home. 

• Step Three – Remove the Pebbles. Pebbles are the things that create negative energy and produce emotional irritation and discord.

• Step Four – Add Pearls. These are things that contribute positive energy to your home. 

• Step Five – Arrange furniture throughout the house in ways that provide “private” and peaceful places for individuals to enjoy some solitude.
  

Episode Links:

• Bill’s website - www.wellcenteredhome.com

• Bill’s book The Well-Centered Home; Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live

Follow Bill!

• Instagram - @the.well_centered.home

• Twitter - @williamhirsch2

• Facebook - @centeryourhome

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn-https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbirebellkaufman

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

TRANSCRIPT:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hard to believe, but we are marking an anniversary. What a year it has been for so many of us working from home, or as I've come to think about it, living at work. Remember when they said 15 days to stop the spread. Did any of us think it would be a year? Well, not me, but here we are. And whenever I get down on things, I circled back to this book I became obsessed with. It is called The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness and Happiness Where You Live. It's by architect, Bill Hirsch. And I know when he wrote it well before the pandemic, he had no idea what would happen and the impact his book might have on people like myself.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview which was recorded last year, Bill gives us five ways to improve our work from home situation. And yes, fake plants are a thing and they work. You're going to want to take notes, but pro-tip, everything you need is on my website. bobbirebell.com, including summaries of the show via show notes, but also full transcripts of every show. So just enjoy the interview. I'll be back on the other side. Here is Bill Hirsch.

Bobbi Rebell:
Bill Hirsch, So nice to have you here.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, it's nice to be with you. Thanks for inviting me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I truly enjoyed your book, The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness and Happiness Where You Live. I should also mention, in addition to being an author, you are an architect. People that read the book, that will make total sense. This is very appropriate in this time when we were spending so much time in our homes.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, it really is. Even in normal times, studies have shown that we spend somewhere around 70% of our lives in our homes so they have a huge influence on us. And now, what are we spending? 99% of our lives in our homes or a whole lot of people are. And it's made people scrutinize their home and appreciate or become uncomfortable with certain aspects of their home much more than before. I have a client right now who told me he's cleaned his garage three times.

Bobbi Rebell:
You brought with you five easy ways to center your home on a small budget. Before we get to those, I want you to explain what does it mean to center your home? Because that's sort of the basis of this book.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, centering, the term is used in the similar way to how it's used for meditation and increasing self-awareness where you're pulling the things that pull you in extremes in different directions together and getting your emotions and your psyche into a more central and calming position.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's not the same though as Feng Shui? I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly.

Bill Hirsch:
It's Feng Shui I think is the usual pronunciation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Feng Shui.

Bill Hirsch:
Yes, Feng Shui does a lot of that. It's intended to make things be more auspicious is one of the terms that they use and people take that into better fortune. That doesn't necessarily mean that per se, but it's a method, almost a strict set of rules method for making your home improve the energy around you and make your life better and happier. The difference with a well-centered home and home-centering is that it's more specifically tailored to you and your personality or what we call your homebody type.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get to the five easy ways to center your home on a small budget that you brought for us today. The first one is kind of figuring out who you are. You've put together a quiz so that we can figure this out.

Bill Hirsch:
Exactly. It's a simple 20 question quiz that's in the book and it produces results that let you know which of four homebody types you favor. But it's also a quiz that doesn't pigeonhole you or categorize you in a strict way because you can have a secondary tendency towards another homebody type.

Bill Hirsch:
And so, the purpose isn't to say, "You're this," but the purpose is to help you see more about what your personal tendencies and preferences might be, so that when you do the things to center your home, you're doing them in a way that is much more tailored and customized to you, personally.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I took the quiz. I was a Galileo. There's four different types. We don't have time to go through all of those and I'll leave it for people to see in the book. As an example, what does a Galileo mean?

Bill Hirsch:
Well, a Galileo would be a more technically oriented, scientifically minded person. And by that, I mean, a Galileo is someone who wants to know how things work. I have another homebody type, Plato. Usually, Plato wants to know why things work, but a Galileo would want to know how they work. So things that are technically oriented, demonstrate precision, things that have clearly defined edges and purposes, those would be things that would be attractive to a Galileo homebody type.

Bobbi Rebell:
Functionality. All right. Let's go to step two. You talk about earth grounding. Now, when people hear this especially if they're in urban areas, they might say, "Well, how am I going to do that?" You have some ways. It's about connecting your home with nature, but you have some ways to do that even if you are not on a beautiful farm or something in the country.

Bill Hirsch:
Right. There have been a number of medical studies that show that people actually recover from surgeries or illnesses faster when they're exposed to nature. And they found that this also works and provides that benefit when they're exposed to images of nature. So, if you live on the 18th floor of a high rise apartment and you have windows on one side, and that's a view of another apartment building, you can still enhance your earth grounding aspect by including images of nature, landscape scenes, items that are nature. I always suggest a bonsai tree being a very good type of an element, to add a pearl to add to your home because it's miniaturized nature and requires some degree of maintenance, which is a good aspect.

Bill Hirsch:
If you don't have enough windows to look out to all sides of your home, mirrors can be a very easy way to add a semblance of a window on a non-windowed wall. This could be a simple framed mirror. It does not necessarily meaning a giant wall of mirrors, but a frame mirror implies a window, especially if it reflects of the true window on the other side of the room.

Bobbi Rebell:
I also want to circle back to what you said about the plant. It's interesting because many people would say, "I'm going to get a plant that's low maintenance so that it stays alive." You're saying, get a plant that you do have to maintain.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, another concept that I talk about in the book that I didn't put it in the five easy steps would be peopling spaces. And peopling is a verb in this case. It means how you make spaces relate to people and how you make them be spaces where you expect to see people as opposed to these austere inhuman kinds of spaces that we often encounter.

Bill Hirsch:
One of the keys to peopling spaces is to have something that requires maintenance, because that tells your subconscious that a person has been there and a person will return because the maintenance says so. Peopling, there are a couple of other aspects and that would be things that suit the human scale, something that's the size you could imagine putting your hand on it and it would fit. Things that are similar to the size and scale of human beings. These types of things. A row of columns can be a really nice peopling aspect. And we don't think about these things overtly, but I'm telling you that inside in your inner thoughts, your mind is reacting to these things. And these are the ways that I explain why we like some spaces much better than we'd like other spaces, even if we can't put it into words.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Step three, this is something that I have already started doing now that I read your book. And that is removed the pebbles. We are not talking literally pebbles, my friends.

Bill Hirsch:
Right. Pebbles is charm that I've applied to things that provide negative energy or our irritants there. The term comes from a pebble in your shoe. A pebble in your shoe, you might walk along and tolerate, but no matter what you do, it is still an irritant and it's still disrupting things. And the only cure is to remove the pebble.

Bill Hirsch:
So in your home, you have a lot of things that are potentially pebbles. Things like light bulbs that are burned out, doors that squeak or stick, things like that. A clutter is certainly a pebble. Any of these kinds of things that just aren't in the right places.

Bill Hirsch:
One of the things I rail against are lights that are mispositioned. Like in your kitchen, if the light's behind you and you step up to the countertop, your head and your body cast a shadow on the area where you're trying to work. And that's clearly a pebble that you might put up with. But if you instead had a light that was overhead, that shined down on the surface where you're working, you'll be much happier and you won't have that negative influence. So, pebbles are things that need to be removed or remedied.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that goes especially for workspaces, is to really pay attention to your lighting in our workspace. You talk a lot in the book about different kinds of lights and how that can impact how we feel and how productive we are.

Bill Hirsch:
Exactly. Lighting is measured by its color rendition index. That would be the amount of the spectrum that it actually emits. If it's missing part of that, then the light can be uncomfortable. Early fluorescents and most fluorescents are missing a part of the spectrum and they tend to make things look gray and give people an uncomfortable pallor to their face. And you don't really want that. The new led lights, some of them are very blue and harsh. They have too high of color temperature. You want to look for that when you buy the lights. And you find some that are more daylight type that are a warmer color temperature. They will literally make you feel better and it certainly makes everything look better. These are really important things for homework spaces to get all of that right.

Bobbi Rebell:
And speaking of that, let me just ask you here. You did talk a lot about color as well. What is the best color for a workspace at home?

Bill Hirsch:
Well, everybody in the color world will tell you that the color that produces the least potentially negative reaction will be grays. And grays that are warmer grays, meaning they have a brown undertone rather than cooler grays that have a blue undertone tend to be even more comforting. Although, that's not to say, stay completely away from the cooler grays, just be careful that they can get to be a little harder. And then, green is always a comfortable color for people. Colors like red and orange, they're specific colors that really, you need to clearly favor them. They can be disruptive. They might make a space too energetic for working. And then, mild blues are good too, but be a little careful with those because they can get to be too blue. That's where the grays maybe are the safest choice.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes. I actually have a gray area where I work. And by the way, you do give specific literally, paint colors in the book that people can look up and choose those, or choose something similar if that's what works for them. Let's move on to step four. And this is a little bit more positive. We're talking about bringing a positive energy into your home. You call this adding pearls.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, pearls are the counterpoint to the pebbles. Pearls, if you think about them, they were an irritation that got into the oyster like a piece of sand or something, and the oyster started building a coating around that and produced a beautiful pearl out of it. So pearls in your home are the same sorts of things. These would be things that you would want to add into your space that give you delight, attract your attention, make you think. You, as a Galileo might like things that express their technical aspects or are intricate.

Bill Hirsch:
One of the examples I often use would be a clock that is mechanical and shows you how it is mechanical even though it's a bit of an old fashioned type of thing, maybe a relic from our past now that we're digital, everything. But they're fascinating. And they're the kind of thing that... Pearls are the sorts of things that if you glanced at them and not even consciously examine them, they still do positive things to your psyche. And that's the whole idea of how your well-centered home can support your emotional wellbeing and mindfulness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Step five has to do with something that can be really [inaudible 00:16:37] free, just arranging your furniture in ways that provide private and peaceful places so you can have some solitude, something a lot of us really need with all of this work from home and live pretty much all the time from home these days. Tell us more about that.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, you're right. It's a critical aspect of working from home. You can't really just set up your desk as part of the kitchen table and then expect that you're going to work efficiently and comfortably. That's going to wear on you. So if you can create a spot, and it can be a very small area and define it with some aspect of the furnishings, it might be a small screen like the one behind me here in my office, that just sort of define the space and when you're in it, you know where the edges are. And also, the other people in your family know that's the office and it becomes dedicated to you.

Bill Hirsch:
This is an important aspect of just sort of living in your well-centered home in that, everybody in the house needs to have a place to call their own where they can sit. It might be corner of a room. It might be a particular spot on the sofa. When they're there, they're in their own space. And then, you have other spaces that are designed for interaction with others. You need to think through these and plan them out more purposefully instead of just letting them happen by accident.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I think that's one of the most important things, going back even to the concept of pebbles, that you need to pay attention to these things that we're so busy living our daily lives, that we haven't necessarily spent the time to proactively set up our homes. And as we settle into what for some people could be much longer than we ever expected, it's something that we really need to be more mindful of. Your book is a wonderful tool for that. Where can people find out more about you and the book?

Bill Hirsch:
You can look it all up at the website, which is www.wellcenteredhome.com. There's a lot of information there. If they would like to buy the book or read a sample from it, it's available on amazon.com. Just type in The Well-Centered Home. It'll take you right there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, it's been a pleasure being with you. I want to hear back from you on how well-centered your home becomes.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a deal.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you know from the top of the podcast, I am obsessed with the fake plant thing. And all winter, I got a little mood boost when I looked out my window of my bedroom to my teeny-tiny New York city balcony and I saw that greenery, all fake by the way, that Bill inspired me to get. Tell me, what was your favorite tip from the interview or do you have any other tips? DM me on Instagram at bobbirebell1. On Twitter, I am @bobbirebell. And if you screen grab this podcast and post it on Instagram stories and tag me at bobbirebell1, you'll be entered to win a free book from one of our Financial Grownup authors and merch from my new grownupgear.com store.

Big thanks to Bill Hirsch, author of The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness and Happiness Where You Live. Go get his book for more great tips. And it goes without saying, but I'll say it, thank you to Bill Hirsch for helping us all work from home like the financial grownups we are.

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda [Savan 00:20:28] is our talent coordinator and content creators. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup.

Stay in touch on Instagram at bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend, and maybe leave a review On Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

The buzz on SPACs keeps building. Bobbi shares what is driving the trend, what a SPAC is, and what investors need to know about them. 

Pros of SPAC

#1: It lowers the risk of going public. Let’s face it: a lot can go wrong. Companies are worried that market volatility could tank their public debut. Merging with a SPAC gets them a capital influx much faster and easier. 

#2: It’s faster. Space have no financial history- so the only track record is the reputation of the management teams. For a company, merging with a SPAC can get them funding in a few months. The traditional IPO route which involves a lot of paperwork with the SEC can take as much as 6 months, sometimes longer. 

#3: More control over valuation. With a SPAC merger, the company can negotiate a fixed valuation with the sponsors. 

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Cons of SPAC

#1: Shady history.  Back in the 1980’s SPAC’s were known as  “Blank Check Companies” The industry was full of fraud, and known for scamming investors. A federal law was even passed to crack down on them. Now there are some guardrails in place- for example, if an investor does not approve of a company that the SPAC is merging with they can get their money back. 

#2: A successful SPAC can be incredibly lucrative for the for the sponsor, to the point where there is a concern that they might merge the SPAC with a less than ideal company just to get their big payday. Oh- and generally they have to make a deal within 2 years- so there’s a ticking clock to make something, sometimes anything, happen. 

#3: Investors should be aware that the company that has gone public by merging with the SPAC has not gone through the vetting process of doing all the financial audits and requirements that happen in a traditional initial public offering. So you have to wonder: what do you not know about the company? In other words, it is easier for the company, but riskier for the investor. 

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• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

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FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Financial Grownup Guide: What is a SPAC- and why it is such a hot trend on Wall Street

Hi friends!

If you pay attention to the money and investing related news, which you should be, you have probably been hearing about SPACS- which stands for special purpose acquisition company. They have actually been around for decades-but the buzz has really been building lately. Their rep is that they are last resorts for small companies to go public, because they couldn’t raise money on the open market. But that doesn’t really explain why they are having such a big moment right now. 

So here’s what we are going to go over in this episode:

-What is a SPAC

-Why would a company go public using a SPAC rather than the traditional route?

-What are SPACs so popular now- and what role did the global pandemic play in the trend?

-I'll tell you about the shady history of SPAC's

-What are the risks for investors?

Before we get into it- I do want to welcome everyone. If you are new- this is kind of a special episode. I do these solo episodes on occasion where I talk about a money topic- usually something in the news. 

But most of our episodes focus on having a role model as a guest- a financial grownup as we like to say, sharing a money story that had a big impact on their life and then the lessons we can all learn from their experience. We also have them share everyday money tips that we can put to work right away. If you enjoy this podcast I hope you will take a moment to subscribe, and share it with friends or family that you think might enjoy it. One easy way is just to take a screenshot of the show and share it on social media- and please tag me @bobbirebell1 on instagram so I can thank you. 

Back to SPACs. Let’s first go over exactly what a SPAC is- and is not. 

Think of a SPAC as a shell company set up to buy another company- except it doesn’t necessarily know what that company will be. Usually a team of investors raise the money first- but again- very often without a target company. It goes public as a Special Purpose Acquisition Company but it contains no company. All it has is money kept in a trust. 

Then we have companies that need money- and are on the hunt for the right way to get it. 

So to simplify- on one side we have money with no company, and on the other side we have a company, that it looking for money. 

This is different from the more common way for companies to raise big money in the public markets with a standard initial public offering. But that is really complicated- and expensive. There’s a ton of paperwork, financial audits and regulations. There are road shows, and pitch meetings with institutional investors. And it is super risky. Some of the risks the company can control, but the truth is the depending on what is going on in the world at the time the company wants to go public, a lot of how well that company will do- it can’t control. 

But they have become a really big trend on Wall Street recently. 242 SPACs were introduced in 2020, quadruple the number raised in 2019, according to SPAC Insider. The average size of a SPAC in 2020 was $335 million, that is almost  10 times the amount in 2009.

And there are some interesting reasons why that we are going to talk about. 

Reason #1: It lowers the risk of going public. Let’s face it: a lot can go wrong. Companies are worried that market volatility could tank their public debut. Merging with a SPAC gets them a capital influx much faster and easier. 

Reason #2: It’s faster. Space have no financial history- so the only track record is the reputation of the management teams. For a company, merging with a SPAC can get them funding in a few months. The traditional IPO route which involves a lot of paperwork with the SEC can take as much as 6 months, sometimes longer. 

Reason #3 More control over valuation. With a SPAC merger, the company can negotiate a fixed valuation with the sponsors. 

All this has a lot of appeal during the global pandemic, given how much uncertainty there has been in the global markets. It got a lot harder to raise money the traditional way. So SPAC’s can provide a viable option for capital starved companies to access funding. 

This all sounds great- so what’s the catch?

Well first- their shady history.  Back in the 1980’s SPAC’s were known as  “Blank Check Companies” The industry was full of fraud, and known for scamming investors. A federal law was even passed to crack down on them. Now there are some guardrails in place- for example, if an investor does not approve of a company that the SPAC is merging with they can get their money back. 

Second: A successful SPAC can be incredibly lucrative for the for the sponsor, to the point where there is a concern that they might merge the SPAC with a less than ideal company just to get their big payday. Oh- and generally they have to make a deal within 2 years- so there’s a ticking clock to make something, sometimes anything, happen. 

Third: Investors should be aware that the company that has gone public by merging with the SPAC has not gone through the vetting process of doing all the financial audits and requirements that happen in a traditional initial public offering. So you have to wonder: what do you not know about the company? In other words, it is easier for the company, but riskier for the investor. 

Which brings us to why you should be paying attention to the trend. In my opinion- and this is an opinion, we should look carefully at why a company would choose to go public this way. That does not mean it is not a good investment. It just means, it did not go through the traditional red tape. To be clear, many companies go through the red tape, and no one takes the time to read all the details of what they have disclosed to potential investors. 

That said, once a company is publicly traded, as the calendar mandates, it will have to comply with the laws regarding disclosure. So maybe, if you want to invest in a company that used a SPAC to go public, you might consider taking your time, and getting more information before you jump in. 

Before I let you go- a reminder that I am on a campaign to boost financial literacy by giving out free books. If you want to win a book that has been grownup list approved- all you need to do is either do a screen grab of the podcast while you are listening to it - and post it on instagram and tag me at bobbirebell1- or write a review on apple podcasts and email it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. You could win a book by one of the authors that has been on the show, or some of the merch from the grownupgear store which you can check out at grownupgear.com.

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Are you working harder than ever and not getting paid what you are worth? Claire Wasserman explains why so many of us get short-changed and shares 5 specific strategies that will upsize our income and compensation. Plus, Claire reveals the behind the scenes story of AOC’s decision to run for political office and her role in the gutsy move. 

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Claire’s 5 Tips For How To Get Paid More!

Tip #1-

Talk to real people about their salary. You could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to a real person. Remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Tip #2-

Have three numbers. I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. This is a big problem because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. Oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter. So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there. So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Tip #3-

Talk about the whole picture. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Tip #4-

Talk about your value add. I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but make the case for yourself. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company." If you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. Discounts with vendors? Maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money. That is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees. Have testimonials too. You should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review.

Tip #5-

You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. So how do you address this? You use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." You've said your big number. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together."

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy Tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally, makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

Bobbi Rebell: I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good. And that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of T-shirts sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more, that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently, like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt.

Bobbi Rebell: The most comfy sweatshirts, T-Shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more, give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost grownup friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle @GrownupGear, and DMS with any questions. And thank you, because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup Guide, five ways to get paid more with Ladies Get Paid's Claire Wasserman.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey, grownup friends. Do you want to make more money? Yeah I thought so, and yeah, me too. The harsh reality is that the pandemic has been brutal, not just for our health, but also, yeah, for our wealth. Because how do you ask for more money from your boss, or how do you raise prices on your customers in a pandemic? I mean, we should be grateful just to have our jobs, just to have our businesses running if that's the case, which is true. That doesn't mean that we don't deserve to get paid more, and that doesn't mean that we can't get paid more. And we should not assume that those who make the decisions can't and aren't willing to pay us more. Right?

Bobbi Rebell: So I was thrilled to get to talk with Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid about her new book aptly titled, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. So, if you are open to making more money, this episode is definitely for you. By the way, no need to take notes. As always, the show notes have a quick summary of the episode, and all the links that you will need, and even a transcript of the entire interview. You just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and click on the Financial Grownup tab to bring you to the podcast section. There's also a search box on the top right if you want to search for this or a past episode.

Bobbi Rebell: Okay, my friends here is Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid.

Bobbi Rebell: Claire Wasserman, welcome to the Financial Grownup Podcast, and congrats on your new book, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career.

Claire Wasserman: Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk more about the book later in the show, but I want to get right into the five ways to get paid more that you brought for us. The first one is about talking to real people. And that sounds easy, but in this age, it can be complicated.

Claire Wasserman: Well, you could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to real people.

Claire Wasserman: Here's the good news, if you are nervous, remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Claire Wasserman: Now, you don't have to ask people specifically, "How much do you make?" Because sometimes that can feel a little uncomfortable. So instead, how about you bring them the research that you've done? "Listen, I'm an art director, five years into my career. I am working for a company that has 10 people." And please note here, I'm talking about context. Context is key. Tell them, "This is the research I did between X and Y. This is the salary. I think I should be getting paid. Am I off base, or, more abstractly, what's the ballpark that you're making?" Just remember, you want to talk to white men also, because they're the ones who are getting paid the most.

Claire Wasserman: And if any of them were trying to figure out how to be allies, which a lot of them are, this is a great way that they can support you. So don't be afraid to even cold email people, find them on LinkedIn, tell them you're trying to figure out your salary and you'd love for them to be an ally. How much do they make? Would they be willing to share, even just a ballpark. The worst thing that can happen is they just don't respond.

Bobbi Rebell: The second tip to get paid more is, "Have three numbers." What does that mean, Claire?

Claire Wasserman: Well, I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. Big problem, big problem, because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. I mean, oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter.

Claire Wasserman: So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there.

Claire Wasserman: So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Bobbi Rebell: Even though you have those three numbers in your head, is it better to try to get them to make the first offer, or is it better for you to throw out the number first?

Claire Wasserman: I have a controversial opinion here, because I think when you do research, a lot of other coaches will tell you, "Never be the first one to say the number, because you might low ball yourself."

Claire Wasserman: If you've done the market research and they're paying in the market research, when you were the first person to say it, you're anchoring high. If they are the first person, they may be anchoring low. And it sometimes can feel a little uncomfortable to say, "Well, that wasn't really what I was thinking," or it might throw you off, maybe even demoralizes you. So start with the number you want, but back it up with the research that you've done. You can even say, "I've spoken to a number of other people," if they ask, "Where did you get this number?"

Claire Wasserman: And you can also say things like, "This is the number, the market research that I found, but what are you proposing?" So it's not like you're ending the conversation with that first number.

Bobbi Rebell: And a lot of employers, though, try to find out what you were making before and anchor to that. How should people handle that? Because it also depends where you live.

Clair Wasserman: Exactly. So some states have passed what's called the Salary History Ban. The thinking behind that is if marginalized groups are getting paid less than other people from the beginning of their career, and every time that they get a raise, if that's always based on that original salary, well then, the gap will compound over time and will never catch up. So you can decline to respond, or you can be abstract, or tell them how much you got paid, but listen, that's not relevant to the ask now.

Claire Wasserman: I mean, even think about this, look at the original job description, write a new one for what you did. You're going to see a lot of changes. You're going to see experiences, growth, maybe totally different work that you ended up taking on. So the salary that was originally given to you was based on what you knew then. Regardless of what this next job is, and the market research, just know for yourself that you have grown by leaps and bounds since that first salary.

Bobbi Rebell: Number three, "You want to talk about the whole picture."

Claire Wasserman: Yes. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability, full compensation. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Claire Wasserman: So I would say, "What are the top one, two and three items for full comp you can bring up?" I would personally bring it up after the salary conversation is over, only because I don't want them to use your full comp ask as leverage to get that salary down. And you want to ask for this, regardless of whether or not it's a pandemic, just be prepared that you may need to ask for more things, more full comp, if a time like now, if they're not saying yes to the salary.

Claire Wasserman: If you're wondering, "Well, Claire, if they don't have the money to give me a salary bump, how are they going to afford to give me a signing bonus, or pay for me to go to a conference?" A lot of times these come from different budgets. I know so many women who were not able to get the salary they wanted, but the signing bonus actually got them to a place where their now annual salary was exactly what they wanted to begin with. And that was simply because different budgets from different departments.

Claire Wasserman: So if you don't ask, a hundred percent, you're not getting. Again, the worst thing that can happen is they say, "No," which in my mind is really a, "Not yet." And then you can continue the conversation later.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that. A "Not yet." Not a "No." Are there benefits that have evolved during the pandemic that people may not be aware of, that they can ask for?

Claire Wasserman: Well, make sure that you're getting cell phone and internet and anything that requires you to do work from home, which by the way, I think most of us are doing, or a lot of us are doing that.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh yeah.

Claire Wasserman: I wonder if it can even be your laptop, paper, pen, I mean, really pretend you're a freelancer, to be honest. Your overhead costs, they should be paying for. If you want to continue flexibility, you've really proven now to them that it is possible. So if this fits for your lifestyle and you want to do a hybrid model, be prepared to ask, and you can make the case, I think, pretty easily.

Bobbi Rebell: Is that something you should ask before you start, or is that something that you should wait? Because traditionally, people often said "Go in 100% and be extremely present. And then once you prove yourself and they know you and they trust you, then you can ask for a hybrid approach." What's your take on that?

Claire Wasserman: Yeah. I mean, if this is a deal breaker for you, then you definitely want to bring this up maybe during the interview, otherwise you're wasting your own time along with theirs. You can also ask open-ended question of, "Do you have a hybrid model? Are there other people doing this? I'm just curious." So you can get a sense from the very beginning of their openness to the conversation.

Claire Wasserman: And then in terms of proving yourself, sure, but just to remember that it's not necessarily all or nothing. You can ask for maybe once or twice a month, or once a week, or something where they can see how this is going to go. And also proactively address all the reasons that they might be hesitant, so you're not just, "Hey, can I work from home?" And letting them tell you, "No, no, no." It's okay if you're concerned about team dynamic or communication, "Here's a way that we can address that." Just making it really easy for them to feel good about saying yes to you.

Bobbi Rebell: Exactly. And make it easy to say yes. The fourth way to get paid more is my favorite. It's about your value add, really.

Claire Wasserman: I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but making the case... So it's you say, "Well, Hey, I want top dollar." "Well, hold on now. You have to prove to me that you're a top performer." You don't get the money, because you deserve it, even though, I know you deserve it. And it's also not about, "Here's the work that I did," because guess what? It was your job. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company."

Claire Wasserman: Now, if you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, well, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. I mean, discounts with vendors, maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money that is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees.

Claire Wasserman: So if you're a part of contributing to the culture of the company, it means as much as if you were able to land a client, but you just have to make the case. Have testimonials too. So through all throughout the year, I mean, first of all, you should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review. I mean, not to put it so... It sounds not great, but that's the same thing. It's like, "Don't just take my word for it. Take Bob's word for it."

Bobbi Rebell: Okay. The fifth way to get paid more, this is something I think is very hard for a lot of women, because you tell them to be assertive, but you also have to have empathy.

Claire Wasserman: You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because we are, this is terrible, but there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating, put others before ourselves, be nice, be good girls, don't disrupt.

Claire Wasserman: Well, hold on now. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. Well, what's the chance that they're going to now look at you like you're aggressive? And women of color, I know you're nodding. This is something that they even more. So how do you address this? Well, you use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." But you've said your big number, I want to be clear. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together." Or, "I know this is a company that pays women equitably." That's actually shaming them a little bit.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that one.

Claire Wasserman: Or, "This is a company that is very fair. I'm sure we can figure this out together." And you can always, at the very end, just say, "Well, what would you do if you were in my shoes?" Bring it around. And do remember that we're all negotiating in this environment. They will, I think, automatically have empathy with you if you have empathy with them.

Bobbi Rebell: I don't want to let you go before we talk a little bit about your book directly. Like I said, it's called Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. What was your favorite chapter?

Claire Wasserman: I don't think I have a favorite chapter. I just have favorite stories. So for those of you listening, if you're not familiar with the book, I structure it by following the lives of nine real women from the Ladies Get Paid community. Each of them is going through a different professional challenge. And as I tell their story, I stop along the way, and I give advice.

Claire Wasserman: A woman who came to the second workshop that I ever organized about getting unstuck in her career, and all the way, for the next year and a half, she wanted to be in some kind of civic engagement role, maybe in politics. And finally, at a town hall that I hosted about reinventing yourself, she stood up and she declared to the whole room, "I have always wanted to run for office, but people who look like me don't run for office." And she was a young Hispanic woman. And this was in front of a room, this is a hundred women. She said, "But I am going to run for office."

Claire Wasserman: And everybody cheered. And I cried. I cried, because I knew her. I knew her since college. We were so excited for her, because of how brave she was. She declared that she was going to do something that she was probably not going to succeed at. She was going to be going against an incumbent who was 20 or 30 years older than her, of course, a white man. And so here she was, saying, "I'm going to do this thing. And the chances that I even seed are so slim." But that was why it was courageous, and that's why we were so moved by her.

Claire Wasserman: Now, of course, a year later, she wins. Then she became the youngest Congresswoman ever. And her name is Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. So that story is my favorite. I guess I just gave away the ending of that story. If that wasn't enough to have you read the book... Well, you'll read the book. I know you all will.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah, the book was amazing. And by the way, it's important to know that even though the title is Ladies Get Paid, there is a lot of general career advice here. It's really powerful. And things that you haven't necessarily heard before are very original strategies that I think will be helpful to everyone.

Bobbi Rebell:My favorite chapter, by the way, was in level up section, you have different sections. I love chapter eight, Get Allies, because I think it's so important to have allies in your corner. As you mentioned, so many jobs are never publicly listed. And so it's important to have people that are looking out for you. And it's not always your direct inner circle. Sometimes it's your acquaintances that can be so valuable in helping your career.

Claire Wasserman: I have never gotten a job that I applied to online. I think I maybe got an interview once. My whole career has come from relationships that I've built over time. They've also been strategic. It's not mutually exclusive to be authentic and have a genuine friendship while also knowing how both of you are going to leverage each other's strengths and connections. And that, again, has been the key, the key to men, the old boys club that exists for a reason. And so we have to create the young girls club. How about that?

Bobbi Rebell: Yes. Well, it's the everyone club, really. And you have to... One of my favorite stories was the last one that you share, which is Madeline, who really investigated and was very upset to find that the men in her company were making multitudes of what she was making. I was a little bit upset by what the ending was, but it was a big lesson.

Claire Wasserman: So that name has been changed.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes.

Claire Wasserman: Her story is in the New Yorker. You can all figure it out.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah.

Claire Wasserman: It is wild. It is even more dramatic than I put in the book, because my editor thought, "Well, the people won't believe this." So you know what? Truth is stranger than fiction, and I'm so honored by her and everybody else who so vulnerably shared their struggles with me. I think it goes a long way to showing folks out there that they're not alone, which is the first step, undo any shame that you have in order to be open to learning and to helping others. We're all going through something. It's so relieving. It's like you just alleviate this weight off of you when you share your story, and I'm just honored that these women did that with me and for you all.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. And thank you for sharing all of those stories. Tell us more about where people can reach you. We know the book is available everywhere. Where can people be in touch with you and Ladies Get Paid?

Claire Wasserman: I would love you all to follow me on Instagram. I'm @ClaireGetsPaid. You can also follow @LadiesGetPaid on Instagram, and join our Slack group. We've got 75,000 women from all over the world. They've exchanged more than two million messages since 2016. So very talkative in there, and it's free. So just join at LadiesGetPaid.com, and we'll add you. And thanks, Bobbi, for having me. I always love an opportunity to share my story, and as you can tell, I like to talk.

Bobbi Rebell: If you loved what Claire had to say as much as I did, I hope you will, first of all, go buy her book. It's great. And I also hope you will take a moment, while you are listening to this podcast, and take a screenshot of it and post it on Instagram Stories or other social media. And if you tag me @BobbiRebell1, that's B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L, and then the number one, you will be entered into our monthly giveaways. You can win books by our authors that are on the podcast, as well as merch from our new Grownup Gear store. You can see the merch, by the way, right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. You'll see it says shop grownup gear.

Bobbi Rebell: Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of the Financial Grownup podcast. So grateful for Claire Wasserman for helping us all learn to get paid like financial grownups. Bye, everyone.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Jessica Zweig leads the thriving personal branding business: Simply Be. But the author of the new book "Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself” only got to this point in her life because she was able to exit a toxic business relationship that brought her personally and financially to rock bottom. Plus she shares an everyday money tip that will help us reach our goals during the pandemic, no matter what obstacles we are facing. 

Jessica’s Money Story:

My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had 100,000 local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship." And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth. It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch.

Jessica’s Money Lesson:

Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page.

Jessica’s Money Tip:

So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Bobbi’s Take:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships, and used the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. - This past week the dating app Bumble went public. Its founder,  Whitney Wolfe Herd started Bumble in 2014..  after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder, where she was a co-founder- after a breakup with another co-founder. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and is worth over a billion dollars. 

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

So many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic- in part because it feels like no one is watching. I mean after all. We can and do literally work in our pajamas. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time. Get an accountability partner. Get someone who will be committed to you- and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren’t doing that- break up fast and find another accountability partner. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy, but this more quiet time will come to an end, and the opportunity to get to your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste. 

Get your copy of Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself.

Follow Jessica!

• Twitter - @jessica_zweig

• Instagram - @jessicazweig

• Jessica’s website - www.jessicazweig.com

• Facebook - Jessica Zweig

• LinkedIn - Jessica Zweig

Follow Bobbi!

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Merch - grownupgear.com

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys, are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy t-shirts and we need to give ourselves an upgraded but still super comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

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Bobbi Rebell: The debt and the brokeness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would've if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We've got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Financial Grownup Podcast. We share money stories here that had big impacts on our guests lives and of course then they share with us the lessons from them. I'm your host Bobbi Rebell, Journalist, Certified Financial Planner and author of the book How To Be a Financial Grownup. If you're new here welcome. I'm so glad you found us.

Bobbi Rebell: So that clip that you heard at the top of the show was from author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig. Jessica has a new book out called Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. I have to say I love that title. The thing about Jessica is that if you don't know her you would never know all the things that she has had to overcome to well be where she is now that included a toxic business relationship that lasted for seven years. The breakup left her with nothing hitting rock bottom at age 33, even having to ask her parents for money just to pay her phone bill. Just when we think we will be hitting our grownup stride you never know what's going to hit us. There is a lot to learn from this remarkable woman and she does not hold back in this interview. Here is Jessica Zweig.

Bobbi Rebell: Jessica Zweig, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me Bobbi. I'm pumped to be here.

Bobbi Rebell: Well, I am pumped to have you here. Your book Be, I'm holding it up by the way, Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself is about to come out and it's your first book. Congratulations.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much. You know how much goes into it so thank you for saying that.

Bobbi Rebell: I really enjoyed learning so much about you and what you teach people in the book. What's interesting is you come across as having it all together which you do now I'm going to say but it wasn't always the case. You brought with us a money story that is sadly something many of us can relate to but often don't know what to do with, I should say that often don't know what to do about, and that is finding ourselves in toxic relationships personally and in business in work environments. Tell us your money story Jessica.

Jessica Zweig: My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had a hundred thousand local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship."

Jessica Zweig: And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth.

Jessica Zweig: It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch. Bobbi Rebell: When you look back were there red flags that you should have spotted in the relationship, in the business in terms of the skills that you both brought?

Jessica Zweig: From day one. I mean, there were massive red flags. I think I realized three months in just how different we were but we were young and we were so naive and we both really loved this business. This magazine Cheeky was our baby. And so I didn't want to give it up and she didn't want to give it up and at the core there was a magic connection with us. We wouldn't have created what we created if there wasn't that synergistic spark. And we both loved each other to a degree which was what made it so difficult.

Jessica Zweig: But there were red flags and it was honestly one of the most toxic relationships of my life. I mean, we were together for seven years and we were water and vinegar. We were just totally different people. And I'm not saying I was better or she was worse, we were just different. I've come to so much peace and love and honestly forgiveness for myself first in the way that I showed up in that relationship as much as her and how she showed up in the relationship which I think has really been a huge key to me soaring in the last few years because I really did my own work.

Jessica Zweig: I think it's so easy to point fingers at people when they burn us or they hurt us or they come after us. There's that expression when you point one finger at someone, I mean do it, you're pointing three back at yourself. So you really do have to look at yourself in any sort of situation but when it comes to money it's especially loaded and I could still be angry, I could still be bitter, I could still be resentful. I don't feel any of those feelings. And it was the greatest learning lesson of my life. I applied all of those mistakes, all of those failures to simply be and simply be is so successful and it wouldn't have been unless I had that seven year chapter and run of making all of those mistakes.

Jessica Zweig: So, I think that everything happens for a reason and I feel like the debt and the brokenness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would have if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. So, everything happens for a reason and divine order. It's happening for you not to you even though it can really feel the opposite in the moment. I wouldn't be who I am without that business and that failure.

Bobbi Rebell: Can you me a specific example of something that happened that highlighted your differences? It doesn't have to be your biggest fight or something but something especially money related that you just never agreed on.

Jessica Zweig:I think we were both pretty irresponsible with the way we spent the business's money. I really wanted to grow it and scale it and exit. I wanted to be that type of entrepreneur and she wanted it to be a more lifestyle business. If you're going to go into business with anyone whether it's a business partner or someone on your team or your leadership team to really understand those nuances and get everyone on the same page. Because it sets the foundation for the type of business and the rate in which you want to grow and how you want to operate and who you want to do business with so, so much. And we just didn't have the skills. We were so young. We didn't have the tools to talk about money and business at that level. We were green as grass. So, of course it netted out the way that we netted out. And we also were really done when we opened up our credit cards. She was the personal guarantor on the credit cards. It was just mistake, after mistake, after mistake.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. I love that you're talking about the fact that it is so hard to talk about money and it sounds like you guys didn't have a lot of talks about money and how you were going to structure your firm and how you were going to fund it before you started it. What is the lesson for our listeners as we put it all in context?

Jessica Zweig: Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken and I think actually way, way up and make the right decision to partner with the right people in the first place. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page. And yet money makes people funny no matter what and so you really have to recognize that in yourself and in the others and bring as much consciousness and integrity to those kinds of negotiations, conversations, whatnot.

Bobbi Rebell: I could talk to you forever about this but I want to get your everyday money tip because it's something that I am already implementing for 2021 and that is having accountability, having an accountability partner. Talk about that.

Jessica Zweig: Yeah. So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Jessica Zweig: And so, I brought in my husband who is a financial advisor, as well as you are. And his business had kind of slowed down, he couldn't go out and network, we were quarantining. And he's like, "Jess, I'll help you with the PPP." He took one look at my finance team and was like, "Dude, I can do this better." And so I fired my finance team and I hired my husband. And my husband and I have always obviously been partners and accountable to each other because we're married but bringing him into my business...

Jessica Zweig: He's now my CFO, he helps me run the shop, saving money, ensuring that our P and L's are always balanced, making sure we're net profitable. Having someone that I trust, obviously I trust no one more than my own husband but he has really allowed me to fly as the CEO because I know that he's got things covered. And we operate like a legit finance CFO to CEO. We take weekly meetings. He has an agenda. We run through every money in money out, hiring, investments, savings. We don't have any debt in our business. It's a really powerful person, obviously it's my own husband. But if you can have someone to pulse check you, to support you, to believe in you, to honestly be able to see the forest from the trees more than you can in your own project or business or money endeavor that is so key.

Jessica Zweig: And then another thing that I have done that has really allowed me to get out of debt and save money and feel really, really peaceful and abundant and my husband has helped me with this is we've set up an account. I call it my island account and it's a bank account we can only put money in. And if I needed to take money out I'd have to drive all the way across town in the worst hours, whatever. It's my island account. I can only send money to it, it can only grow. And I'm stacking my cheddar as my accountant once told me and my husband helps me ensure that money is being sent to that account every single month and that we're totally able to send that level of money over to that account and that's really grown our savings. My husband and I sleep well at night because of it.

Jessica Zweig: And so those are the key hacks that having my husband and having that account has changed honestly my financial wellbeing more than my finances but more of my financial wellbeing, which I think is key to vibrating at that level of abundance and attracting more.

Bobbi Rebell: That's such great advice. There's also a lot more great advice and I'm picking up your book now even though I know we're on audio and your book, okay I'm going to read the title Be, with a period, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. And I love the yellow cover. Yellow became one of your themes in the book so it transcends so much about you and your sunny personality. Tell us briefly about the book.

Jessica Zweig: So the book is a personal branding book. It's going to walk you through my trademark methodology of how to build your platform, the platform of you. Whether you work for yourself, or you work for someone else, or you want to one day work for yourself, having an understanding of what makes you you is an invaluable asset that you can take with you no matter what your job title is. That's number one. It's going to teach you tactically step-by-step how to do that from messaging, to strategy, to content, to social media, to PR.

Jessica Zweig: However, it is a personal empowerment book in fact disguised as a business book. Because I think at the core most people feel afraid to do that and to put themselves out there. And I say that my book is the permission slip and the reminder that you are worthy to be seen and to shine and to have everything you ever want. And it's my own journey in fact as well and my uncovering that truth for myself. And so, I'm right along with you throughout the whole book and you're going to take away so much tactical knowledge but at the end of the day I hope it inspires people to stop playing small and stop apologizing for their authentic amazingness. And that's what my book Be is about.

Bobbi Rebell: One of the recommendations in the book is to keep your social media and all of your public identifying names, et cetera, very consistent. So let's end with you telling us where people can find you on all of the social media because I know you keep it easy.

Jessica Zweig: I walk the talk as I say I drink my own Kool-Aid. So yes I am at Jessica Zweig on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, jessicazweig.com. You can also go to simplybeagency.com which is my company's website and find me. I'm really, really, really easy to find. I'm out there. So please come and say hi.

Bobbi Rebell: Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me. This was amazing.

Bobbi Rebell: Here we go my friends Financial Grownup tip number one, some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships like Jessica, and like Jessica they use the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. This past week the dating app Bumble went public and its founder Whitney Wolfe-Herd started Bumble in 2014 after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder where she was a co-founder after a breakup with another co-founder. And she's talked about it a lot, it was a toxic relationship for sure. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and worth over a billion dollars. What a great story.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup tip number two, so many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic in part because it feels like no one's watching. I mean, after all we can and do literally work in our pajamas, certainly the off-camera part. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time, get an accountability partner like Jessica. Get someone who will be committed to you and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren't doing that well break up fast and find another accountability partner who's a better fit. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy but this more quiet time will come to an end and the opportunity to get your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste.

Bobbi Rebell: One way to get motivated, get out of those PJ's. Realistically, I know we aren't getting dressed up but have some fun with your pandemic wardrobe. That's what I know I needed when I came up with a concept for Grownup Gear it is all about celebrating wherever we are in our journey to being grown ups which never really ends let's be honest. Check out the designs on my website, bobbirebell.com. Click on shop or just go directly to grownupgear.com. And please be in touch. DM me what you want more of on this podcast. I love your feedback. I put discount codes for Grownup Gear on my Instagram, which by the way is Bobbi Rebell one. And we did just start a Grownup Gear Instagram. We don't have a lot of followers so please come check it out. That's at @GrownupGear on Instagram.

Bobbi Rebell: So big thanks to Jessica Zweig, author of Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing You Self-Worth and Your Net Worth By Simply Being Yourself. Everyone check out the book and thanks again to Jessica for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Gamestop's meteoric rise and fall, and the roles Reddit, Hedge Funds, and Robinhood played in it, have many lessons for financial grownups. Bobbi explains what happened, and reveals what new data is showing that many news reports initially got wrong. 

In this episode, you will learn:

-What actually happened?

- Why did Gamestop stock surge?

-How does short selling work?

-What goes on in the online forums (like reddit’s Wall Street Bets)?

-What is a short squeeze?

-How FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) played into things.

-Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

-Who got hurt and why?

-What did we learn from this?

Takeaways:

#1 - While everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

#2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

#3 -Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

This is going to be a special solo episode and we are going to talk about the Gamestop phenemonon that happened recently that has gotten a lot of you interested in how the stock market works, how the companies that hold the money you invest in stocks work, and most of all, how you can make money by buying stocks. 

Here on the financial grownups podcast we normally share money stories that impacted our lives and the lessons from them, or tips and tricks to improve your financial situation but today we’re breaking format because what happened recently with Gamestop, and a few other stocks, and Robinhood and some other brokerage firms really changed the game for a lot of people. 

Here’s what we are going to cover:

What actually happened- why did Gamestop (which is a company that wasn’t doing well). suddenly have a surging stock?

How does short selling work?

What goes on in the online forums, like reddit’s Wall Street Bets?

What is a short squeeze?

FOMO- fear of missing out- how that played into things…

Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

Who got hurt and why?

What did we learn?

So let’s start with what happened. Gamestop’s actual business, which is primarily selling video games in brick and mortar retail stores, was not doing well. So a lot of professional investors, including hedge funds, were betting against it, doing something called short selling. And by the way- this happened recently with a few stocks but we’re just going to talk about Gamestop here. 

What is short selling. Essentially- the investor goes to the broker and borrows the stock. They turn around and sell that stock to someone else. So they don’t have the stock, but they do have to return it to the broker. The goal is for the stock to go down between the time they sold it to someone else, and the time they have to buy it back, to return it back to the broker who lent it to them. Short selling is super risky because if the stock goes up- it absolutely has to be bought to give back to the broker. Since there is no limit to how high a stock can go, there is no limit to how much the short seller can lose. In other words- don’t go there unless you really know what you are doing. 

While this was happening, the stock started getting talked about on reddit, in particular on a page called Wall Street bets. They noticed that the stock was heavily shorted- and that there was a big change at Gamestop- some new members of the board. One in particular, Chewy Co-founder Ryan Cohen got noticed because he had a lot of digital experience- something Gamestop really needed. That combination got the Wall Street Bets folks to pile into the stock and cause it to rally. 

Next topic: The short Squeeze. Remember all those Wall Street professionals that had shorted the stock? As the stock rose, they were seeing that the price to re-buy the stock they had shorted was skyrocketing and they had to cover their bets.. by buying the stock… which set in motion this seemingly accelerating rise in Gamestop stock-

Then came the FOMO- fear of missing out. As news reports of this were coming out, more and more people wanted in on the action, and things started to get out of hand. Plus the whole thing took on a larger meaning because of media reports that  all these little guys banding together- there were more than 5 million folks on that reddit page- and the word was they were beating these big professional hedge funds. Everyone was talking about it. 

Now let’s talk about the brokerage firms and one in particular that gets a lot of attention: Robinhood. Amateur investors can go on Robinhood and trade for free. Robinhood has had it’s share of controversy in the past, but that’s a whole other podcast. In this case, Robinhood started to get worried- and, citing extreme volatility stopped allowing it’s customers to buy the stock- though they could still sell it. So keep in mind, Robinhood’s customers are generally individuals. The professional investors who were not dependent on Robinhood could keep buying and selling. The optics were not good. Some people thought they were doing it to protect the Wall Street pro’s from losing too much money. Politicians cried foul, and people lawyered up. 

As the dust settles - there is another dramatic twist. University of Chicago law professor Todd Henderson, says the pros saw what was happening and basically piggy backed on the little guys. 

He studied the data from that time. And while there was a burst of retail activity-  he says in a cnbc piece- eventually it was actually the big guys- against the other big guys. According to Henderson, hedge funds purchased stock and held it. This created fewer shares for short sellers to borrow in the market, and that squeezed the number of possible shares available to be loaned, making it harder for short sellers to bet against the stock. The desperate short-sellers needed to find new shares to borrow but supply got constricted.. If you are not following at this point- that’s kind of the point. It’s complicated. And it is not for amateurs. 

And that brings us to who got hurt and why. So yes, hedge funds and one in particular got hurt. As I write this, Gamestop’s gains have almost all disappeared, so a lot of people who bought it will likely sell it for a big loss. And they probably won’t talk about it. Especially with all the bragging going on about how much their friends and family made on the rise up- assuming they sold it at a profit. FOMO can cost you. 

So finally - what are the lessons to take away from all this?

Lesson #1 - while everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

Lesson #2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

Lesson #3 Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

As for my take, it’s never a good feeling to know that many well meaning people took risks they didn’t understand and lost money, I am glad that this got so many non-investors interested in learning more about the stock market. And even though that interest was motivated by momentum driven trading, my hope is that eventually that will evolve into learning about thoughtful, intentional and strategic investing, that will help all of us reach out grownup financial goals. 

Thanks everyone for joining me- for more money tips and advice- plus lots of giveaways please go to my website bobbirebell.com and sign up for the grownup list. 

I love bringing you this podcast and it is and always will be free to you but there are a number of ways that you can support the show if you enjoy it. 

Number one- tell a friend about it. 

Number two- take a screenshot and share on social media

Number three- write a review on apple podcasts

And finally- do a little responsible shopping on my grownupgear.com website. It’s got t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags and more- all tied to being grownups. The products make great gifts, for friends, family and co-workers, and even for yourself. 

Thanks everyone, for joining me and for being financial grownups. 

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn-https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbirebellkaufman

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

When Jessica Goodman landed a book deal, and later a TV deal for her debut novel “They Wish They Were us” many people though she would go full time on her side-hustle. But Goodman says that was never the plan, and explains why and how she blends the finances and demands of her two dream jobs.

In Jessica’s Money Story she shares:

-How she started writing her e first book, “They Wish They Were Us.”after having the idea for years.

-How she researched what is involved in selling a book to a publisher, including getting an agent

-How she kept her employer, Cosmopolitan Magazine informed and supportive of her book writing side hustle

-How an advance works for an author, including the tax implications

-What she wishes she knew about being an author and how much they are paid before she wrote and sold the book

-How she was able to adapt her schedule to both her full time job at Cosmopolitan Magazine, and writing books

-What you need to know about how a full time job works compared to being a self-employed author, including quarterly taxes

-When you should think about bringing in an accountant.

In Jessica’s Money Lesson you will learn:

-Why and how you should re-evaluate the way you think about money

-The best strategies to manage money when you are paid inconsistently in chunks

-How she and her partner adapted their spending during the pandemic

-How to resist it when people who care about you give you bad financial advice

Jessica’s Money Tip:

-Even if you live in a small space it can pay to buy in bulk during quarantine (and maybe after!)

-Think of non-traditional items that you would not have used as much at home- like buying wine by the case

-Tips about ordering groceries online including having the heaviest items delivered

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. If you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Get a system going and understand that you might miss out on things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Episode Links:

• Jessica’s website - https://www.goodmanjessica.com/

• Buy They Wish They Were Us

• Pre-Order They’ll Never Catch Us

Follow Jessica!

• Instagram - @jessicagoodman

• Twitter - @jessgood

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

  
  Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Full transcript of show:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees. Much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Jessica Goodman:

When I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. You publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey friends, do you have a passion project or a side hustle? One you dream of doing full time one day and maybe getting to ditch that day job? Well, Cosmopolitan's Jessica Goodman had a passion project that she was quietly working on for years. And that was to be an author. Her debut novel, a murder mystery set in an elite private school called They Wish They Were Us ended up being such a hit that it is now being made into a TV series, starring Halsey and Euphoria's Sydney Sweeney. Fast-forward and Jessica has now scored a book for a second novel that is already coming out this summer. So all systems go on the dream career, right? Well, not so fast. To the surprise of quite a few people in her life, rather than ditch, she doubled down, staying on a Cosmopolitan magazine where she is currently the op-ed editor.

Bobbi Rebell:

In our interview, Jessica shares why she is sticking with the day job, goes through exactly how she manages her time and gets candid about what she wishes she knew about before diving into the book business, including, well, a lot of tech stuff. For those of you new to the Financial Grownup Podcast, welcome. I'm so glad that you are here. We talk with financial grownups here about money stories that impacted their lives and the lessons learned from those stories. We also ask them to bring along an everyday money tip that we can put to work right away. Spoiler alert. Jessica's has to do with how she and her partner buy their wine. So stay tuned for her tip on that. And with that, let's get to this week's interview. Here is Cosmo op-ed editor and author of They Wish They Were Us, Jessica Goodman.

Bobbi Rebell:

Jessica Goodman, I'm so excited to finally have you on the show. You are definitely a financial grownup. Welcome.

Jessica Goodman:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

And happy 2021, a year when your second, soon to be bestseller is going to be released. Before we get into your money story, tell us a little bit about each of your books just briefly.

Jessica Goodman:

So my first book, They Wish They Were Us came out in August and it is a young adult thriller that follows a high school senior, Jill Newman, who is in a very exclusive society within her Long Island prep school. And at the beginning of the book, she is reflecting on the fact that her best friend died when she was a freshman and she was also part of this society. And soon after the book begins, she starts getting text messages that say that her best friend Shayla didn't die the way that everybody thinks she did. And so what follows is kind of a whodunit, murder mystery set in this very exclusive prep school. And it's really an exploration of privilege and friendship and peer pressure. And I kind of like to say that it's like Gossip Girl meets Pretty Little Liars, meets A Secret History. It's really fun. And it's being adapted into a TV series, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey. So if those people are on your brain, I think you might enjoy.

Jessica Goodman:

And then I also have a new book coming out this summer. It's called, They'll Never Catch Us. It's currently available for pre-order wherever books are sold. And it is also a young adult thriller about two super competitive sisters who run cross country. And they're both trying to be the best on their team and in the state. And they threaten to kind of lose the number one and two spots when a new girl comes to town. And then soon after she arrives, she also disappears. And everybody in the town begins to suspect that the sisters had something to do with it. So that's where my brain has been for the past couple of months, which is really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is really exciting. What's amazing to me, and I think our listeners will really enjoy hearing about this is while you are doing this, this is actually really a side hustle to your primary job. You have been in a number of different positions at Cosmopolitan magazine. You're currently the op-ed editor. Did I get that right?

Jessica Goodman:

You did. And I'm very impressed that you didn't trip up over the ed editor because I always do when I say it out loud and I have to be like, oh wait, no, this is my job.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is your job now, you are still working there with one book out, another one on the way. So for your money story, I've asked you to kind of talk about how that happened, especially the money-related decisions that you had to make along the way to make this happen. Having a very full-time job at Cosmo. And then on the side, writing this book. It was a lot of choices you had to make I would say. Tell us your money story.

Jessica Goodman:

Definitely. Yeah, so many choices along the way. When I started writing the first book, They Wish They Were Us. And I really started writing it in earnest after having kind of dabbled with it for many years. In earnest, I started working on it in like 2015, 2016. I would say. I didn't get to the point where I thought I could actually sell it and be a professional author until maybe like 2018. And that's when I got connected with my agent and we started working towards being able to sell it. But I did a lot of research into how one becomes an author. I was literally Googling like, how do you publish a book? Like, how do you find an agent? Like what is a book advance? Like all of these kinds of really basic questions that I just had no idea what it was all about.

Jessica Goodman:

And I basically found out that it's really, really, really difficult to publish and sell a book. And that be your sole income or your sole career, like one book basically. And so it was never really an option for me to quit my ... Like I never thought about quitting my jobs in journalism while I was trying to sell the book. So it was always just like, how can I make both of these dreams come true at the same time? And so we sold the book, They Wish They Were Us, in the fall of 2018. And we got an advance, which is what they call the income that you make from selling your book. And publishers usually split it up into a few big chunks. For mine, it was like, I got a chunk of money when I signed the contract, a chunk of money when I turned in the book and then a chunk of money when the book came out. And when, at least when I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. It's like you publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case. And it's certainly like a fantastic thing to have of course, but it's not the kind of financial gains that I originally thought it would be. And I think that a lot of people think about when they think of like someone getting a book advance. Like I said, it was always like a no-brainer that I would keep my job, but I really had to learn how to prioritize both jobs to be able to do them well. So my schedule when I'm being my best self is that I write in the morning before work, usually from seven to nine. And then I do my job from ten to whenever. And then I write on the weekends as well. It's certainly hard at some points, especially at my job at Cosmo, I cover the news, especially like elections and special elections and anything relating to, like having to do with politics. So obviously this past year was hard to balance everything.

Bobbi Rebell:

Were you open with your bosses about these efforts, or was it something you kept private?

Jessica Goodman:

When the book deal actually happened, I went in and told my boss, hey, I just want to give you a heads up that like this happened and it's not going to affect the work that I do here. Like, I really wanted to make sure that they knew that I wasn't about to quit basically, that I was just like, this is just something that I'm doing for myself and my personal dreams. But like, it's not going to affect my work or my productivity here. And I just wanted to give you like a courtesy heads up basically. And everybody was really supportive and they have been really supportive of the book. And so it's been lovely honestly, but I definitely have heard some horror stories at other companies. But I think when you work in a field that's somewhat like adjacent to whatever your side hustle is, it does make it a little bit easier for people to understand why you might be doing something or how it won't interfere with your responsibilities.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you wish you knew in terms of the book business and the financial aspects of it? What do you wish you knew ahead of time? You mentioned that you get the bulk payments and you kind of had this idea as a child that authors become millionaires.

Jessica Goodman:

Yeah, I think something that I definitely wish that I knew was like taxes. Like I think if you're like me and you've really only had a job that you get a salary and benefits from your employer, it's really difficult to self-manage money that comes in chunks, whether you're a freelance writer or you're your own boss and you're not part of like a company. I think it's really difficult to know things like, oh, I have to pay quarterly taxes on this income. Or like, oh, I don't know how much money to put aside from this advanced check that I got, because that advance doesn't reflect the taxes I need to pay on it. So I ended up working with an accountant because I had no idea how to navigate this on my own. And I wanted to make sure that I was doing everything by the book.

Jessica Goodman:

And I wasn't going to get dinged at the end of the fiscal year because I have heard horror stories of people getting, like a $100,000 of their advance, spending it, and then not realizing that they needed to pay however many tens of thousands of dollars of taxes on that. And like, oh my God, what a nightmare. Or even realizing that I had to pay quarterly taxes on like freelance income was the real shock to me. So I got an accountant kind of like late in the game, I would say. And I wish I had got one, like even before the first check came in to like really help me navigate that.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson for our listeners, from this story? What's your advice to people thinking about whether it's writing a novel or any kind of side hustle where they're going to have to hold on to their job?

Jessica Goodman:

I think for me, it was really reevaluating the way that I thought about money. Like I think after having been in jobs where like I got a salary check every other week. That was like, okay, like I know what my monthly expenses are. I know how much my rent is. I know how much my utilities are. Like, I know how much I spend on groceries. Like all that stuff that they tell you. And I knew how to manage that money. Like I knew how much I might be able to save, how much I would need to pay my credit card bill, like all this stuff. But when you get these like big chunks of money, or even just smaller chunks of money from like freelance gigs or whatever, I think it can feel really tempting to just kind of spend it immediately. Even if you're the type of person who is really invested in saving and planning for your future, I think it's hard to conceptualize like how much money you might need for stuff. And especially this year, when I wasn't interested in spending a lot of money at all, based on the kind of times we're in, I splurged on a few things and those things I was thinking about them before we hopped on the call. Those are the things that I really splurged on this year where I turned 30 and I bought myself $80 worth of oysters that were shipped from Cape Cod and an oyster shucker. And that's how I spent my 30th birthday with my partner. We shucked like 50 oysters and save the additional, however many for the next day. And it was such a treat and it was so much fun and something that I'll remember forever. And I bought myself a $90 tie dyed sweatsuit because I am a millennial and on Instagram and it just looked really cozy. And those were like my two big splurges of the year.

Jessica Goodman:

And I know a lot of people, when they get like a book advancer or kind of achieve these really big milestones, they're like, I'm going to buy myself a really expensive piece of jewelry or a fancy handbag, or even like house or whatever. And I mean, I think all of those things are fantastic, but for me, the lesson for me, the lesson here was like, all right, I don't really have anything that I'm ready to splurge on that big right now. I really want to like, save all of this money as much as I can. And those are the things I'm going to splurge on, like oysters and a tie dyed sweatsuit. And knowing that like my big splurge might come later. Like I am saving up to buy a house with my partner. And I think that like my book advance will of course go towards that.

Jessica Goodman:

But realizing that like, I didn't need to spend it all right away I think was a huge revelation, especially because so many people were like, what are you going to treat yourself to? Like your book just came out, like, what are you going to do to mark the occasion? And I didn't really do that much because it just didn't feel right for me. Those were my splurges.

Bobbi Rebell:

I love it. I love the idea of oysters. So tell us your everyday money tip.

Jessica Goodman:

Oh yes. Okay. So this is one that I really got to be obsessed with during the pandemic. Like I am not the type of person that should or would traditionally buy in bulk. Like I live with one other person. We live in a one bedroom apartment. It's very small. We don't have a lot of storage space, but this year I became the kind of person that buys in bulk. Obviously, so many people are doing this during the pandemic, but I don't think I really realized how much you actually save when you buy in bulk and you know what you're going to use in those bulk quantities. And I think the pandemic has really shown people like what they actually use and what is actually important to them. And so for us, like there were a few things that really changed the way I thought about this. One was I started doing like subscribe and save Amazon paper towels and toilet paper. And actually I had done this pre run out of toilet paper in like March moment. So I pat myself on the back for knowing that would be a thing.

Jessica Goodman:

But I think I did the math recently. And it was like if I were to buy a few rolls every time I went to the grocery store, I would spend nearly twice the amount that I do just doing subscribe and save and having them shipped directly to my house. And even though they just sit in boxes in like a corner of our apartment. Because again, small one bedroom apartment, I think it's like totally worth it for us. And the other way that I found this to be really useful was we started buying our wine in cases, which a year ago I would have said like, are you okay? Like what's going on here?

Jessica Goodman:

But my local wine shop, they started offering a 15% discount if you bought a case of wine. And so we basically did the math and we were like, well, we'd be losing money if we didn't do this. And we don't go through them that quickly. I mean, it's no brainer how much money you save. We started looking for ways that you could buy in bulk and save like that. Like the fancy coffee shop near us. If you buy beans in bulk, it's like the same thing. And all these companies now do like subscribe and save membership things, like there's so many coffee ones where like every week they'll send you a bag of beans or whatever. And I think like looking for those has really been super helpful for us and certainly cut down on how we spend.

Jessica Goodman:

The other thing about like this buying in bulk grocery shopping thing is I heard this tip from Carla Lalli Music who used to work at Bon Appetit and now is she's like a chef home cook person on Instagram and has like a fantastic cookbook. But her big tip was always like, if you're ordering groceries, like order all the heavy stuff that's going to be delivered to your apartment. So you don't have to carry stuff, especially in an apartment. And that has been so helpful to me too, where it's like, every time I do like a big shop online or Instacart or Whole Foods or whatever, I get like 10 cans of beans, because like, I don't want to carry that. Or like four jugs of olive oil or like four twelve packs of seltzer because yes, you're buying in bulk. And sometimes you can get discounts that way, but also like who wants to carry that stuff home?

Bobbi Rebell:

Definitely good to always make your life easier. Especially if you are paying those fees to have it delivered. You want to get the most out of that delivery fee. Jessica, thank you so much for being with us, tell us where people can find out more about you. We know your books are available everywhere. We don't know when is the TV series coming.

Jessica Goodman:

TBD on the TV series, but you can stay up to date with all of that info on my Instagram, which is @JessicaGoodman or Twitter @JessGood. And I also have a website goodmanjessica.com. Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. My friends let's do this. Financial Grownup tip number one, Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. And by the way, if you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.Financial Grownup tip number two, get a system going and understand that you might miss things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Bobbi Rebell:

I had so much fun talking with Jessica and her book was really, really a page turner. As I mentioned, it is a murder mystery. And for the record, I really was totally fooled. I didn't see the twists and turns coming. One thing that I've really loved during our forced stayed home time during this pandemic has been catching up on reading fiction and really getting lost in books. We're going to be giving away a few signed copies of Jessica's book to that end so please make sure you are on the Grownup list ASAP so you don't miss that. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you can sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell:

Now while you are there, please check out my big project that I have been working on. I am so excited to see what you guys think. It is the new Grownup Gear Shop. It's a passion project of mine, and I hope you guys will all support it. Podcasts listeners can get 10% off if you use the code “Jessica” within one week of this episode dropping. So just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you'll see the word shop, click on there. Check it out. I hope you guys like it. Big thanks to author Jessica Goodman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Author Ron Lieber returns to the Financial Grownup podcast to preview his new book "The Price You Pay for College”and share tips on the best ways to control college costs, including debunking some big myths about why college is so expensive and who gets how much aid, and why. 

Tip #1:

There is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called Merit Aid. Rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can. Figure out whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes. You have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Tip #2

You can appeal the financial aid package you receive from these colleges. The need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. You may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need-based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid. That's going to give you the best chance of success.

Tip #3

Save the “right” way. There's this idea out there that you need to make a choice between saving for your retirement and saving for college for your kids. You can do both. Borrowing for college may not be for some families. This idea also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time. The financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Tip #4

You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children. We do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. You don't get, make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old. So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Tip #5

What we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, our spouses, or even our exes. We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt. The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us. We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Full Transcript of Episode:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works.

Bobbi Rebell:

You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit, split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com. Financial grownup guide, five things you can control about the price you pay for college with author Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of, 'How To Be a Financial Grownup.' But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hello, my friends, for all our talk about budgeting, spending, penny pinching in some cases, looking at the prices of everything we buy. Most of us, our parents, our children, friends, we buy one really big ticket item that we shop for without actually getting to see the real price that we will pay. I am of course, talking about college. And while yes, we can see the full retail price on many university's websites, the majority of us actually, aren't going to pay that price.

Bobbi Rebell:

In fact, I learned in Ron Lieber's new book, "The Price You Pay for College" that only 11% pay that price. So then the question is how much of a discount can we get, and how is that decided? Welcome everyone here on the Financial Grownup podcast, we talk about money issues that matter to us as we move through adulthood and college certainly qualifies.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber, the New York Times Your Money Columnist, who was first on the podcast in 2018, talking about how he got into school is now back to give us a peek at his very grownup book, "The Price You Pay for College," an entirely new roadmap for the biggest financial decision your family will ever make. Yeah, that's the truth. Like so much of our lives these days, there are lot of things that we can't control. So I asked Ron to tell us what we can control, and he did a little myth-busting along the way. Here is Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber welcome back to the podcast and congratulations on your new book, "The Price You Pay for College."

Ron Lieber:
It's great to be back. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

What inspired this book before we get into your tips about the things that we can control about the price that we all pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, this book is both personal and professional. It's personal because, I have a 15 year-old ninth grader and a five-year-old kindergartener. I live in New York city with extremely high costs and it's a two journalist household. So we're not exactly rolling at it. So this is going to be hard for our daughters to have the same kinds of choices that my wife and I had albeit for me with a whole bunch of need-based financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

So it's personal, but it's also professional because readers kept getting in touch and expressing marvel, but also alarm at the fact that the rack rate for the most expensive colleges in the country had passed $300,000 for four years and even the flagship state universities.

Ron Lieber:

Many of them are now more than a hundred grand for four years. So you've got a $200,000 gap between them and these readers were saying to me, "Hey, we live in the era of big data, where's the big dataset that explains why NYU is $200,000 better than SUNY Binghamton." I did not know and it felt like a new question to me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well you answer a lot of the questions in the book? And unfortunately there is a lot about this process that we simply cannot control, but I want to focus for our grownup audience on the things that we can control. And we've got a list of a few things we're going to go through. What is the first one? What can we control when it comes to the price we pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, you can control what you know, right? You can learn how the system works. One of the things that continues to amaze me is the number of sophisticated people who are extremely successful in their own chosen fields of employment who show up in my inbox or in my text messages in March or April of their child's senior year in high school.

Ron Lieber:

And they have no idea what has hit them. They have no idea that there is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called merit aid. And that rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can.

Bobbi Rebell:

And that's kind of one of the reasons why college has gotten so expensive in fact, is that it's become the sort of vicious cycle.

Ron Lieber:

One of the things that's made it also complicated for the people who run these schools, it's not just the pricing wars going on in the background, although that certainly helps drive down revenue and the net tuition revenue per student. But one of the things that we can't control as individuals and the schools have a lot of trouble controlling, is that people good ones, well trained people cost money, right?

Ron Lieber:

Professors spend, a minimum of five years in graduate training and Economics 101 suggests that, people who need to spend that long learning and training ought to be compensated at an above average rate. There are also more administrators than there used to be for every 1000 undergraduates. But that's mostly because we like it that way, right?

Ron Lieber:

We want disabled kids to have access. We want kids with mental health issues to have access. We want there to be a good counseling center on all of that. So, we get the administrators, we demand in the marketplace. But it is not cheap to run these places and if we made them more efficient, we might not like the result.

Bobbi Rebell:

So for parents that want merit aid, how can we control merit aid and how much we can get for our child or for kids going to college, if you're a teenager listening to this?

Ron Lieber:

Well, the first thing you have to be able to figure out is whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes.

Ron Lieber:

I think of schools like, Oberlin or Connecticut College, relatively Tony Brand’s private schools. A lot of fancy kids go there. They don't really want to talk about this. They're ashamed that they've got to, get in there and slug it out in the marketplace.

Ron Lieber:

And so you have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts.

Bobbi Rebell:

Another thing I was shocked about that you talk about in your book that people can control is if they do get a financial aid package, they can appeal it.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. There are a lot of people who don't know that this is the case as well. And it gets a little messy, right? Because the need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. But the merit aid awards come from admissions. So depending on which awards you have, you may need to file your appeal to different people.

Ron Lieber:

And then when you do, you may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need- based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

That's going to give you the best chance of success. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's get into other things that people can control. There's a lot of myths about how to save, where to save and how much to save to get the best opportunity in terms of support from the college. What should people be doing? What can they control there?

Ron Lieber:

Well, let's go through a couple of the maxims here that are repeated as truths in financial planning and in personal finance, journalism, by people who ought to know better that are not actually true. First of all, there's this idea out there that if you need to make a choice between saving for retirement and saving for college, you should save for retirement because you can't borrow for retirement. That implies a couple of things.

Ron Lieber:

First of all, that borrowing for college is necessarily and always a good idea, and it may not be for some families. But it also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home.

Ron Lieber:

So, I hate things that are presented as maxims. They're actually based in factual inaccuracies. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time.

Ron Lieber:

So there's a whole bunch of problems with this. I mean, first of all, the financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. And let me also say this, right?

Ron Lieber:

I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Bobbi Rebell:

And speaking of your kids, that's also something you can control. You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. Look, I mean, we do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. That's not how it works when this thing that they are chasing costs today, as much as $325,000 for University of Chicago at the rack rate, right? You don't get to make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old.

Ron Lieber:

So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Bobbi Rebell:

And the final thing I want to talk about is our own emotions. There's the cliche, "Keeping up with the Joneses" and everyone says, "Oh, I just want what's best for my child." But people get pretty emotional. This for many parents, it's a reflection on, it's almost like, did they get an A+ in parenting, depending on where their child goes to school. They want that sticker on the car, right?

Ron Lieber:

I am so glad you bring this up. Obviously the students have a tendency to be emotional. They're getting ready to leave home, they feel like it's competitive. They want to be able to hold their head up in the community. They want what they want and that's normal for adolescents.

Ron Lieber:

But what we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, with our spouses if we have one, with our exes, if we have some of those about the feelings that all of this invokes and evokes, right? We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt, right? The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us.

Ron Lieber:

And so therefore we should borrow $150,000 per kid, right? We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Bobbi Rebell:

Very interesting. And it's true in schools, one of the myths that you dispel in the book is that schools, they have all these things you joke about the lazy river and the rock climbing wall. I mean, that is something that is eye candy for students. That's not the reason that schools are so expensive by the way.

Ron Lieber:

No, I mean, these are really fun things to go gawk at and talk about and old school types will snicker and think that everything's gone to rot. But I don't blame the schools for this. I mean, these 18 year olds want to continue to live in the manner to which they become accustomed.

Ron Lieber:

And all of a sudden in a generation we've gone from, having a VCR in your room and a private phone line, and your own camcorder, being a luxury to everybody walking around with this little rectangle that like does all of those things and then some, right?

Ron Lieber:

We just have a way higher standard of living that we used to. And so it doesn't surprise me that a bunch of institutions would want to raise the quality of the lived experience for their undergraduates. I would argue that this is market driven. It's not driven by the institutions and it doesn't actually cost a ton. Again, it's the people who cost money at the schools, not the amenities.

Bobbi Rebell:

Right. And that's a big, big myth that you bust in the book. I loved your book. I hope lots of people pick it up because it is eye-opening about so many things that I thought were true that are not true like that last example. Ron, where can people be in touch with you?

Ron Lieber:

Yeah, I am itching to get back out on the road again, but it's probably not going to happen until November at the earliest. So I will be all over the internet. The best way to catch up with me is to sign up for my newsletter, which I promise I don't send out all that often. But if you go to ronlieber.com and just drop your first name and your email address in there, you can keep up with me and I will continue to send notes and notices about where I will be appearing via zoom. And I'm on all the usual social channels @RonLieber.

Bobbi Rebell:
So wonderful. Thank you so much.

Ron Lieber:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay my friends. I was pretty surprised about how little at a relative basis, all those luxuries amenities costs, but I guess overall, it is a good thing that the money is going in large part to educators. Right? I would love to hear about your experiences with paying for college. You can DM me at @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, @BobbiRebell on Twitter, and please join the grownup list.

Bobbi Rebell:

We share recommendations of books, podcasts, and other fun things to level up your grownup life, plus we are doing giveaways of books from the authors on the show and exclusive financial grownup merchandise. Just go to my website, Bobbirebell.com to sign up. Big thanks to, "The Price You Pay for College" author, Ron Lieber for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.