Money Tips on how to buy an online business with entrepreneur Tonya Rapley

Who needs a start-up when you can buy your way into a business? My Fab Finance founder Tonya Rapley shares why and how she decided to buy an online business and her tips on what she would and would not do differently.

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Money Tips On Buying An Online Business

Learn the types of questions you should ask before buying a business.
Learn how Tonya increased the average order value and how you can do the same.
Learn what kind of things you can do in the beginning to prepare for the growth that comes later.
Why it’s so important to have a marketing strategy for your business.

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Tonya Rapley:
They were taking a significant loss. They were selling these loofahs for 4.99 and doing free shipping. Ridiculous.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hi, friends. Okay, we all know starting a business is not easy, but the truth is you don't have to start a business to be a business owner. There's a whole lot of options out there if you want to buy your way in. But there's a lot you need to know before you get started, and we're going to share some of the secrets that you need to know.

Bobbi Rebell:
My guest today is Tonya Rapley. You may know her as the co-host of one of the shows we featured in our summer watch party, Going From Broke. We were a little obsessed with it. Anyway, it's executive produced by Ashton Kutcher. Check it out on the Crackle channel. Tonya is also the founder of My Fab Finance and the author of The Money Manual. She is a big deal, guys. She's been featured everywhere from Vogue, Good Morning America, and The Today Show. But what you probably don't know is that she's also a holistic wellness business owner. In 2019 Tonya purchased Club Loofah, an inclusive self-care brand focused on inspiring and supporting regenerative practices for all. She mentioned this to me in passing recently, so I roped her into a podcast interview to tell us more about buying a business and basically how it all works. It's really interesting, guys. Here is Tonya Rapley.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tonya Rapley, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you. I'm excited.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so excited to have you. Long time overdue. I loved having you in my book and now here. You are the founder of My Fab Finance, which has an incredible community as well. You're host of Going From Broke, which was one of my favorite shows that I caught up on this summer. We highlighted it in our summer watch series. You have the 30-day shift program. And what we're going to talk about is your new online business, Club Loofah. Welcome, welcome.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you so much. It sounds like I do so many things, and I do.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many things, and wife and mother and all the things. Before we get into your online business, tell us a little bit about My Fab Finance.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, I mean, My Fab Finance, I started in 2013. It was essentially my accountability partner, as I decided that I was tired of being inconvenienced by being financially insecure. My goal at the time was to improve my credit score so that I could get my own apartment in New York City and hopefully get free clothes from Macy's. I just wanted free clothes. I was like, "Maybe they'll see what I'm doing and send me free clothes."

Bobbi Rebell:
Free clothes, always a noble cause.

Tonya Rapley:
You know, you know. And here we are, I guess. Well, I've been a full-time entrepreneur. I was able to transition into doing My Fab Finance full-time in 2015. We've created so many different elements of My Fab Finance and different iterations, but today our goal is to create a safe space for women to talk about money, as well as we have a mission of helping 1000 people achieve at least one financial goal that they're proud of.

Bobbi Rebell:
When we were doing our interview for my book, which is going to come out in the spring, which, guys, I'll talk about another time, you kind of mentioned, "Oh, by the way, yeah, I bought an online business." And so I wanted to bring you on the podcast, because you mentioned this oh so casually, like, "I'm doing 100 things, and by the way, I bought an online business," and then you move on to something else. I need to know about this. So a lot of people, they're home during this extended version, unfortunately, this extended pandemic that's so much longer than we thought we would be home. Of course it's good to start an online business, but not everyone has to start from scratch. Sometimes if you have the resources you could actually buy something and give yourself a jumpstart. And it sounds like that's what you did. So tell us about this decision to buy an online business and what you did. What is it?

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. So as a financial educator, I realized that a lot of my income was service-based. It was based on my ability to show up to coach my audience and everything else, and I wanted something that was easier to scale. That's how I thought about it before I bought the business, easier to scale. I knew I did not want to come up with a new concept, create a new brand and everything else. And so my sister, who had just closed her Shopify store, asked me... She said, "I know you're interested in potentially purchasing another business. Have you checked out the Shopify exchange?" And I hadn't heard of it, but I went to check it out immediately. And she then sent me this company, Club Loofah. And she just typed, "I think that you could really do something with this. It's a great concept."

Tonya Rapley:
And so I started to look into it more, and I thought to myself, "Wow, this is a really good concept." It is essentially a bath subscription business, a bath tool subscription business, because most people don't realize that you're supposed to replace your loofah every three to four weeks. Your loofah, your sponge, whatever it is you use in a bathroom, before it starts smelling, before it starts crumbling, you're to replace it. So we reached out to the owner, and he was about to actually close the doors, because he hadn't had any bites or anyone that had... He had a few conversations, but no one that was really serious. [inaudible 00:06:09], "Hey, the money's in escrow. Let's do this." So we ended up buying the business from him. He was actually based in Riverside, California at that time. We were living in Los Angeles, so we drove up to Riverside with a U-Haul, got all the inventory that he had on him-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, right, so you actually have to take inventory, because I have-

Tonya Rapley:
It is not drop shipping. Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
I do drop shipping for my grownup gear.

Tonya Rapley:
It is not drop shipping. We do not have a fulfillment center just right now. And so that's the thing. We got the items from them. We just started learning the e-commerce business when it came to loofahs. When we purchased the company, one of the things that was attractive to me was that it already had subscribers. It was a subscription business. So the day that we purchased the company, they had new orders, because it billed monthly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, why was he selling it? Presumably... I would always be suspicious. If someone's selling a business, you kind of go, "Well, why?" Because maybe if it's a good business, why would he sell it? So I would be wondering, what are the red flags?

Tonya Rapley:
So the reason he was selling it actually was because he inherited the business from the previous owner. So there was a previous owner who started the business for her daughters because she wanted to teach her daughters entrepreneurship. Then her daughters lost interest in it, and she didn't have the capacity to manage it, but he was already onboard as the marketing officer, the chief marketing officer, so he bought it. He believed in the business, thought it was a good company. He took it over. But then his father passed away, and he decided that he didn't want to do things just because anymore. He wanted to live a more purpose-focused life.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I have not seen this site before you, but it has a really nice editorial focus, and that's something that that is one of your strengths. Tell us more about the changes that you then brought in.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. Thank you very much, because when I bought the company, it was very fun and kitschy, and one of the things we realized was, if we're going to compete with the Targets... And we're not going to compete with Target and Amazon. We cannot drive our prices low enough to compete with them, so we have to appeal to a different demographic, someone who value self-care, who is willing to invest in their self-care and what's a higher end feeling product. And so we rebranded to go for a higher end. And so now the products that we're rolling out are more luxury-focused, or they're items that you can't find in your drug store. That was very intentional. And we wanted to clean it up a little bit. The company was based in California, so it was very beachy, Hollister... Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
When you look back, what would you have done differently? Are there questions you would have asked that you would advise people that are looking to buy an online business that's already somewhat established... What should they go in knowing that you wish you knew?

Tonya Rapley:
Absolutely. So when I bought the company, [inaudible 00:08:55], "Okay, it's bringing in revenue. You have XYZ subscribers. Cool. All right. Yeah, let's do this." Now I would definitely ask about their average order value, because the average order value determines if you can run ads. From my perspective, I was thinking, "All right, we're going to buy this company, and we're going to run ads, and we're just going to blow this out the water." But in order for ads to make sense, your average order value needs to be above what your minimum ad spend is going to be, or what it costs to acquire a customer.

Tonya Rapley:
They were taking a significant loss. They were selling these loofahs for 4.99 and doing free shipping. Ridiculous. So one of the things we did when I came in was changed the shipping model. We now charge 2.99 for shipping. And then we also increased the price point on some of the items. We allow the loofah, the classic loofah, to be the loss leader, but we increased the price points on some of the other items and introduced higher-priced items to the store as well, so that average order value and just the opportunity to bundle products... There wasn't really a strong opportunity to bundle products. So now we're in the final stages of developing a body care line so that you can bundle your body care with your loofah, since it's it's all body care anyway. So that's one of the questions I definitely, definitely would have asked, is average order value.

Tonya Rapley:
The retention rate was pretty good. Their retention rate... And that's a question, especially if you're buying a subscription business. How long does your average customer stay around? And do you have any existing customer service infrastructure in place? Because he was handling customer service inquiries. I found very early that I hated that aspect of the business, and we ended up hiring someone, but it would have been nice if there was somebody that came along with the company. So any personnel that would come that know the business outside of us going and doing training with you is another question that I probably would have asked. Those are the two big things we had to change, was... The average order value was a killer early on, because the company was basically losing money.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you really didn't know that when you bought it.

Tonya Rapley:
No, I didn't, and I should have asked for stronger financials, but I think that [inaudible 00:10:55] I was like, "It's a subscription business. How bad could it be? It's not to the point where they're searching for customers every month. I bought the customers with the business. How bad could it be?" Yeah, I didn't do the math on that one, Bobbi. I didn't think like, "Okay, this is a 4.99 loofah, and they're charging nothing. Free shipping. How much is shipping?" But we addressed that, and within the first year we increase the average order value I think by like 32%.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you do that?

Tonya Rapley:
We introduced a candle line, so most people were buying candles. And our candles are not... They're high-quality soy candles. Our candles were about 20... I think $28 for a candle. And so that definitely drives up, if you're buying a 4.99 loofah and a $28 candle. We introduced two higher end products, the ayate washcloth, and we actually just dropped our Japanese smoothing brush. So those aren't terribly expensive, but they're 10.99 and 11.99. And then we started adding bundle options. So when people checked out, we offer the upsell of a shower hook for people who don't have any hooks in their shower, so we offer that upsell. And then we also invited people to buy our family bundle, which was essentially four loofahs instead of one, just in case it's a family of four, and quite a few people decided to do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, you mentioned you wanted something that you could scale. Are you still bundling at home? Who is packaging this stuff up? You said you had no fulfillment center.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, so we still have a fulfillment manager. We do have a storage facility where we keep the things, and we have a facility manager, our fulfillment manager. So we are very hands-on still in that process. I don't pack the loofahs anymore, my husband doesn't, but our fulfillment manager does. And she's great. She's awesome. And that's something we had to look at when we were considering if it makes sense for us to place our products in a fulfillment center, which [inaudible 00:12:42] take about $2.80 to $3 per product, and our average order value just could not sustain that yet.

Tonya Rapley:
So maybe when we roll out the body care line... Our body care line is sulfate-free, microbiome friendly, and we've been really intentional about the body cream that we're creating. And we have a non-abrasive exfoliant that we're also rolling out a non-abrasive skin exfoliant, so it's papaya extract and natural fruit extract to help with skin turnover and cell turnover. So I think that once we roll those out, we might be in the zone of being able to send it to a fulfillment center, but maybe not. We have to see how our fulfillment manager feels, because we'll keep those profit margins... We'll grow them as long as we can, and we'll minimize the money that we're spending as much as we can.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I am impressed, as someone that started a small online business during the pandemic. The amount of detail that you're going into is incredible. You know all of your numbers. What is your best advice, before we wrap up, for people that are considering buying an online business? You went basically to the Shopify exchange, and you can look for whoever's selling a Shopify site. Is that what you advise? And what else?

Tonya Rapley:
It's work. It's work. And decide what works for you, drop shipping, or whether you're going to do the order fulfillment yourself. But you also have to ask yourself, "Do I have the endurance to grow this?" Because I think a lot of times we hear about these overnight successes when it comes to shop owners. They get placed in Oprah's most favorite things list and everything else. But what happens if it doesn't? What is your marketing strategy? My main advice would be, have a sound marketing strategy for how you're going to acquire customers and keep your customers, because if you don't have customers, you don't have a business.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true and such good advice. Okay. We know everyone needs to go to Club Loofah for sure. Where else can people find you and find out more about you and My Fab Finance and the community there? And also you have a 30 day shift program.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. Yeah, because I don't have enough things going on, right, Bobbi?

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:14:44]. You need more.

Tonya Rapley:
So I decided to launch a personal coaching company, because a lot of women who didn't fall into the scope of work we do at My Fab Finance but wanted to know more about, "How do I confidently take on my next life phase?" And so I created a program, 30 day shift, for women who are looking to powerfully move into the direction of their next life shift. So that's at my personal platform. It's Tonya, T-O-N-Y-A, .rapley, or tonyarapley.com. If you go to that website, it actually has all of my companies. So it has a link to My Fab Finance. It has the link to Club Loofah. But if you're interested in Club Loofah, that website is actually loofah.club, so L-O-O-F-A-H.club.

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't know that. That's another question though. You got to get the URL there. That's another thing you got to be asking. Wow.

Tonya Rapley:
Clubloofah.com is not available. And one of the things I wanted to do was make sure that we were in it for the long haul before I invested in buying the domain from someone else. Actually, after this interview, we're finally finalizing our trademark application, because the business was not trademarked, or they abandoned their previous trademark, so we're trademarking. So now that we've been in it for almost two years now, I'm in a phase like, "Okay, let's do all the things that we need to do and probably should have done." So I'm going to... Hopefully in the next year clubloofah.com will be ours. I'm like, "Who had a Club Loofah other than us?" I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they're just squatting on the name.

Tonya Rapley:
They're squatting, waiting for someone like me to come buy it from them. Because that's a big business too. Think about it. Buying and selling domains is actually a big business.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is a big business. And when I named Grownup Gear Grownup Gear, I looked very carefully at what was available before I named a company. So that's also something to really look at, whether you start a company or buy a company. Look at the domain names that the company owns, because that's really important.

Tonya Rapley:
That is. That is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tonya, thank you so much. Oh, you didn't say your socials.

Tonya Rapley:
Oh. So My Fab Finance, that's M-Y-F-A-Bfinance.com. And then Tonya Rapley, so that's T-O-N-Y-A.rapley. And then Club Loofah is Club Loofah, C-L-U-B L-O-O-F-A-H.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. So you have that on social media.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank goodness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank goodness.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, we have that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Good. Thanks so much.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, there was a lot there, so much good stuff. I want to remind everyone full transcripts are available. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com. Go to the podcast section. You'll get the show notes and the transcripts.

Bobbi Rebell:
My take here is that whether you're going to start a business or you're going to buy a business, you need to know that it's going to be a lot of work, probably more than you expect, probably lots of surprises, and probably going to cost you a lot more than that purchase price. Yes, Tonya had customers. They were subscription-based. That's all good. But it wasn't a profitable business, and then she had to deal with that. You need a lot of, frankly, capital runway to manage a business when you're dealing with it initially and you don't really know what's coming at you. So make sure you ask all the questions you need to ask and that you're happy with the answers. The good news with buying a business is you do kind of get a headstart. She already had customers. That's great. You start in the middle. You have a concept there. But you also have challenges that were created by someone else, and you may not be aware of all of them, and they come at you a lot faster because you're already sort of in the middle. Make sure you're ready.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow or subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, reviews are so appreciated. I read every one, and they mean the world to me. Let me know what topics you want me to cover. DM me. And please follow me also on Instagram at bobbirebell1. And go to my website if you want to get on my newsletter list. Just as I said, bobbirebell.com. Pretty simple, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please, support Tonya. She is amazing. Check out Club Loofah. Follow it on all the socials. And, of course, My Fab Finance and Tonya Rapley as well. Say thanks to Tonya for sharing her journey and for helping us all be financial grownups

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of 100s of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking out fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Money Tips from Machiavelli to have more power in the workplace with author Stacey Vanek Smith

Want to have more power in the workplace? NPR’s Stacey Vanek Smith’s new book Machiavelli for Women takes the lessons from Machiacelli’s The Prince to give some specific and realistic ways to succeed.

Money Tips

Some money tips from the many amazing women Stacey references and interviews in her new book, Machiavelli for Women.

The money tip from Ruth Bader Ginsburg RBG about being interrupted and mansplained while being a Supreme Court justice.
The money tip from Sally Krawcheck on why people were much more open and receptive to an idea when using humor or distancing yourself from a controversial idea.
The money tip from Janet Yellen on why it’s important to create a place where people want to work and why making them feel supported is also so important.

Follow Stacey!

Follow Bobbi!

Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.
Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.
Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
A lot of the advice is cringy and it does feel backwards. It is disturbing to me to say stuff like, "If you smile more in an interview or bring up a personal or social connection with someone, you're more likely to get what you're negotiating. The negotiation is more likely to be successful." Or, "If you go into a negotiation with an adversarial attitude or you're feeling very assertive, that really could backfire. People will see you as pushy or aggressive. You should go in with a more collaborative, friendly attitude."

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends. In the words of our guest this week, a lot of the advice she's going to give is cringy. It is even disturbing and it feels kind of backwards, but the sad truth is that, well, it works. I've been trying it out, and she's right. I am talking about Stacey Vanek Smith. If you listen to public radio, you know her as the superstar journalist from NPR's Planet Money and The Indicator from Planet Money. She is out with a new book, Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win in the Workplace. It is a very high concept book. Stacey takes the 500-year-old ideas of Machiavelli and uses them as a reference point for advice for present date women. And guess what? The advice is really not what we usually hear at all. I'll share my thoughts about the book on the other side of the interview, but let's get right into it. Here is Stacey Vanek Smith. Stacey Vanek Smith, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Thanks, Bobbi. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am holding up, even though no one can see it as usual, I always seem to do that,, your new book Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win the Workplace. This is a really ambitious book. How did you even come up with this concept of bringing in this 500-year-old manuscript book from Machiavelli that people really associate with male power to this concept to female power?

Stacey Vanek Smith:
To be honest, I kind of backed into the Machiavelli part. This book came about because I was frustrated personally. I've been covering business and economics for about 15 years in public radio, always in public radio. I had been, as part of that job, talking to a lot of economists, talking to a lot of business leaders, talking to CEOs. And so many of them are men. Economics is 75% male. CEOs are 80% male. For Fortune 500 companies, it's 90% male. And then the things like the gender pay gap. Women make about 80 cents on the dollar compared to what men make. That has been stuck for 10 years. At the same time in my own career, I've been reading a lot of advice books and listening to a lot of advice and just being really frustrated with the advice being offered to women. I felt like a lot of it didn't resonate with me.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I feel like there's a lot of girl power stuff that in my experience has not worked well. And then when I tried to use advice geared towards men, that definitely didn't work well. And I just wanted the truth. I just wanted some real advice. I was like, "Just give it to me straight." My mind just kept going back to Machiavelli. This class I had taken in college, I had read Machiavelli for that class and I hated Machiavelli. I thought he was so cynical and just very basic and obsessed with stupid things I didn't care about like crushing people and power and having... I didn't care about any of that stuff, obviously. I went into public radio. If I cared about money and power, I wouldn't have gotten into public radio. But I started thinking about Machiavelli and I re-read The Prince and all these lights went off in my brain. And that's how the project got started.

Bobbi Rebell:
Some of the advice, in your own words, that you give in this book is pretty disturbing. Tell us, what do you see as disturbing in this book?

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Yes, it's really disturbing. People have told me this. They're like, "A lot of the advice is cringy. It feels backwards." A lot of the advice is cringy and it does feel backwards. It is disturbing to me to say stuff like, "If you smile more in an interview or bring up a personal or social connection with someone, you're more likely to get what you're negotiating. The negotiation is more likely to be successful." Or, "If you go into a negotiation with an adversarial attitude or you're feeling very assertive, that really could backfire. People will see you as pushy or aggressive. You should go in with a more collaborative, friendly attitude." That is disturbing to me. But what is way more disturbing to me is that women are twice as likely to live in poverty after age 65 or that 80% of CEOs are men. That women are not getting the funding they need for their companies, so that even though 40% of businesses are started by women, 2% of venture capital goes to women.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
So, women's businesses were far more likely to fail during the pandemic because they just weren't capitalized. The same is true for minorities and the funding for those businesses actually fell last year, which is amazing to me. That is far more disturbing to me. And so a lot of the advice is advice I wish I didn't have to give. I wish that a lot of it we're different, but we are living in an unfair structure. All you have to do is look at the data and you see it. We're living inside of an economy that is not fair. And it is, also, it is a structure that is very powerful. It is a lot. There's a lot of money in our economy. There's a lot of power in our economy. It is changing, but it's changing pretty slowly and in certain ways it's stuck. And if you want to navigate it, I just at least wanted to give people the tools that they needed to navigate it and I wanted to be as honest as I could.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's hard to hear because I know I've been coached to not put, let's say, a little smiley face in an email or to not have these little soft filler sentences in there. But the truth is, you say in the book, that works when coming from a woman.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Oh, yes. The softener. This is super interesting to me, too. So, I've been beating myself up about this for years. Overuse of exclamation points, overuse of emoji, lots of softeners. "Hey, how's it going? I was just wondering if XYZ." And I've been beating myself up about this. Why do I say this all the time? Why do I say things like, "You know, I was just thinking." Why do I say this when I'm introducing an idea? But studies show that men actually are more open to ideas and retain things that women say more when softeners are used. Softeners work. That's why we use them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And it's interesting because, as I said, we have been coached to take those out. In terms of money tips, one thing that I really enjoyed in the book is that you refer to and interview some incredible women. So, I want to go through three of my favorites. So, the first one that you reference is RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, with some mansplaining and interrupting that famously went on with someone that actually was before her. I mean, she was in the position of power and yet this was happening. Tell us about that and how she dealt with it and what people can take away from that.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
This is one of the most amazing anecdotes in the book. It came from a study that came out a few years ago that looked at Supreme Court transcripts to study interruptions. And what they found was that female justices on the Supreme Court got interrupted three times more often than male justices, even though they spoke less and used fewer words when they did speak. What was even more shocking was that the lawyers arguing cases before the Supreme Court were also interrupting female justices, even though they are not allowed to interrupt justices. They would just jump in and interrupt female justices quite frequently, including Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And as someone who has really struggled to be heard...

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I'm in media so it's a lot of pitch meetings, ideas meetings. I've had my ideas stolen a million times. I've been talked over, interrupted, people forget I said things all the time. I mean, this is something that's definitely happened to me in my career in life. And I felt so relieved. Just like, "This happens to Ruth Bader Ginsburg?" I thought I was just messing up. But no, if it's happening to Ruth Bader Ginsburg, I think you can assume that it happens to literally everyone. It's just most of us don't have as much power as Ruth Bader Ginsburg had.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another incredible woman that you did talk to in the book is Sallie Krawcheck. She's featured pretty prominently throughout the book. There's some things that you reveal in the book and I'm going to just leave it to people. I'm going to tell people it's on page 85. So, you can go to the book and look it up when you buy the book. You can learn about some of the truly offensive things that I don't even want to go there on this podcast. What's the Machiavellian lesson that we learn from her? She has a great sense of humor.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
She has a great sense of humor, and she's so honest and she sees so clearly. It was such a privilege to talk with her because when I asked questions, she never couched anything. She was just completely direct and honest. I learned a lot of things from her. One of my favorite lessons from Sallie was she said, "A lesson I think people don't get enough is that this is not your fault." She's like, "It ends up kind of falling on women and marginalized workers to deal with an unfair workplace. But the fact the workplace is unfair is not your fault. And the fact that it's falling on you to deal with it is really unfair." There was a lot of relief in that because, I mean, all the time and energy we spend strategizing to get paid more, to get promoted more quickly, or to get promoted at an equal level as our white male colleagues with hair, that's time we could be spending on other things, on life or Netflix or coming up with brilliant ideas or playing with our kids.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Instead, we have to spend it doing things like reading articles on how to get more out of your negotiation, trying to figure out why you're underpaid and things like that. My other favorite pieces of advice from Sallie Krawcheck had to do with leadership. Of course, she was working in the super male world of Wall Street, super male world of Wall Street, and trying to give orders to people who did not necessarily want to take direction from a woman, were not excited about that. Two things she said she would do. One, she used humor. Humor as a softener, actually. She would use humor and make jokes. And she said, "It's really hard for people to hate you if they're laughing with you," which I thought was pretty brilliant.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
And the other thing she would do is distance herself from her ideas. And I've started using this and it's amazing how well it works. So, I mean, if she felt very strongly like, "We need to go in direction B," she would just say, "You know, I was just thinking, I'm not sure I believe this, but why don't we try direction B and just see how that works out?" And she said people were much more open and receptive than they were if she came guns blazing out of the gate, "I feel strongly we need to go in direction B."

Bobbi Rebell:
And that brings us to the third woman that I want to highlight, which is Janet Yellen. So, former Fed chair, treasury secretary. You titled her section, The Power of Preparation and Pulling Up Your Socks. Tell us more about her style because she really took a feminine approach to managing an office. Again, very male environment at the Fed.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Janet Yellen told me that she did not think managing people was hard. She was like, "You just tell people that you value their work, you support them in their work, and you make sure they feel valued." And I was like, "Oh, well, yeah." But I think part of the reason Janet Yellen has gotten so much support is because that is what she gives people. She gives people support. She thinks about what will make them happy, what will motivate them. And I mean, it's very simple, but I mean, not all managers do that. I would say almost no managers do that. It's really rare. And the fact she just said, "Oh, managing people isn't hard," was hilarious to me, but I think she comes by it honestly. I think she just cares about the work and respects the people doing the work and conveys that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I think that represents one of the common themes in the book, which is that you have to be very practical. You can be idealistic and say, "I don't want to be the woman that gets my ideas heard because I have a sense of humor and make people laugh or present them in a softer way," as with Sallie Krawcheck, or with Janet Yellen talking about, "I just want to have a place where people want to work." But perception and what we want to be isn't always the practical solution. And I love that this book has a lot of very specific and practical ideas for the readers. It also has a lot of you in it. It's very personal. You reveal a lot that I did not know. I've listened to your work for as long as I could remember. Tell us, why did you get so personal? Because you do reveal a lot of vulnerable moments in your life.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Yes. That was a conscious choice simply because, for me reading books about career advice, the advice always seems to be given a little bit from on high, like from an expert, and it makes it very hard to connect with people. So, I wanted to be very honest about where I was coming from. I'm like, "Listen, I don't like negotiating. Historically, I've been abysmally terrible at it. I have not had success in negotiation. I've avoided them studiously, for years often." I wanted to be honest about where I was coming from, because that is honestly where I was coming from. I have a lot of these issues I was exploring for myself. I didn't know what I would find. I didn't know what the research would show. I didn't know what people would say. But I wanted to be honest about my own experiences, the good and the bad, just so that people would understand that I've also been through this, too, some of these things.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I wanted to be honest about the experiences that I had had in the hopes that it would make people who are maybe frustrated feel less alone. And also that they would know that it wasn't just like, "Oh, well I have had this transplendent career with no moments of self-doubt and I've just gone from peak to peak and it's been amazing, but I understand some of you people are having trouble, so here's my advice." I wanted to be totally honest about some of the experiences and some of the hardest experiences in my career. I thought that vulnerability was important.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I agree. And I think that it really works for the book and I think it's going to be very appreciated by the readers. And I know it certainly really hit home with me because I put you on a pedestal and hearing that there were times that really sucked in your career and knowing that, I think, makes you so much more relatable. It makes the book so much more relatable, and I really think it is appreciated. Stacey Vanek Smith, this has been so wonderful. Tell us more. We know the book is going to be everywhere. Where can people reach you? Besides, of course, hosting. We didn't even say. You host The Indicator.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I host the podcast, The Indicator from Planet Money. There's my website, which is staceyvaneksmith.com. I wasn't very creative in the naming of it, but you can contact me through that site. I'm also on Twitter @svaneksmith, V-A-N-E-K Smith. Or Facebook, or I'm also on LinkedIn. So, you can message me any of those ways. And oh, I'm also on Instagram. All the social media things, or you can just email me through my website.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. It was such a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, friends, a brief recap. You were warned. The advice is, yeah, I think you guys all agree with me, it's pretty cringy. But it works. And we have proof now because we talked about three women in our interview, and if you go through the book, there's a lot more real life examples of exactly how, well, kind of messed up it is, but better to know than to be ignorant. And we learned that even some of the most remarkable women, we talked about RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sallie Krawcheck, and Janet Yellen, they've had to use these Machiavellian principles to manage their careers. And yes, even all-star journalists like Stacey Vanek Smith have had major career setbacks by doing what we're kind of told to do even though, as we know, it's not what works. The hardest part about this interview was actually having to end it because there is so much we did not get to, but it's all in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
And so I hope you guys are going to step up and challenge yourself and pick up a copy. So, this book, maybe it feels a little intimidating when you first see it. Trust me, it is worth the effort. And once you get into it, you're not going to be able to put it down. Settle in. Read it this fall. Most of the books here, I talk about being a quick read, page-turners and so on. And there are times when I meant to put down the book and it was the end of a chapter and I said, "Oh, I'm going go and make dinner and do something else," but then I read just a few more pages and got back into it. But honestly, this is a book to savor and really let the concepts settle in and sometimes flip back and reread a little section to make sure that you really get the point and can apply it to what's going on in your life. It's worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends. This podcast, it's free and that's wonderful. I put so much effort into it and I want to spread the word. I want to grow my audience and I need your help. Please share it with your friends, post on social media, and if you're not already, please do follow or subscribe depending on what podcast platform you listen to. They use different words these days. I think you know what I mean. We want to make sure that you get the podcasts on a regular basis. And by the way, if that platform is Apple or any other platform that allows reviews, please leave a review. I read them all and I truly appreciate all of your support. I also appreciate the fabulous Stacey Vanek Smith, author of Machiavelli for Women, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley [Wall 00:19:14]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Authors, Career, Financial Grownup, Money, Women Role Models, Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanSeptember 7, 2021Machiavelli, Machiavelli for Women, Author, Stacey Vanek Smith, Podcast Host, The Indicator, Planet Money, Money Tips

4 actually do-able ways to recover from a financial crisis- including which 'rules' to break.

Michele Cagan, author of The Financial Recovery Workbook and a CPA joins us to share strategies to recover from life’s inevitable financial setbacks

Michele-Cagan-Main-Instagram-Author-The-Financial-Recovery-Workbook.png

4 Money Tips to Recover from a Financial Crisis

Understand your emotional relationship with money
Know your financial facts
Don't wait for the perfect plan
Don’t follow all the personal finance rules during a crisis

Follow Michele!

Instagram - @michelecagancpa
Facebook - @michelecagancpa
Twitter - @michelecagancpa
Website - MicheleCaganCPA.com
Michele’s Book - The Financial Recovery Workbook

Follow Bobbi!

Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code grownup for 15% off, your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Michele Cagan:
If you are at the beginning of a crisis and you know it's going to last, the problems, the financial ones are going to last for a while, you should borrow money as soon as you can, because by the time you need to borrow that money, your credit is going to be shot, and you're not going to be in as good a position to borrow it.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of how to be a financial grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being thrown up is hard, but together we've got this. Hey, grownup friends. This is the episode I wish I had done back in March of 2020 because we're going to be talking about how to recover from my financial crisis. And boy yeah, we needed that when the world shut down back then, but we have it now. Better, late than never, right? Michele Cagan is a CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook, which is a step-by-step plan for what to do when we are hit by a financial crisis. As we go through our adult lives, many of us and those we care about, will get hit with something. It could be a massive unexpected medical bill, divorces, job losses, or just bad luck that hits us financially.

Bobbi Rebell:
What I loved about my interview with Michele, is that not only were we able to discuss very specific ways to deal with a financial crisis, she was also pretty bold about breaking the rules of what we expect experts to tell people to do. She also reveals her own unexpected financial crisis and shares her personal experience, which I really appreciated because just because you're a money expert doesn't mean it can't happen to you. We're all vulnerable at some point in our lives, often at a lot of points. Here is Michele Cagan, CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook. Michelle Cagan. You're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Michele Cagan:
Hi Bobbi, thank you so much for having me on.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm excited to have you on to talk about your latest book, which is also your 12th book. It is called The Financial Recovery Workbook. Now you brought with you specific action items, but before we get to them, what inspired this book? Was there a certain aha moment that said, now is the time after 11 other books?

Michele Cagan:
Well, I've actually had some big financial setbacks in the past few years related to health issues in my family. I was struggling to recover from some of those. And I thought I'm a financial professional and if I'm having a hard time dealing with all these financial pieces, I can't even imagine someone who's uncomfortable or isn't an expert in finance is going to do. So I put together some of the stuff I used with my clients and some of the stuff I used myself. And I thought, let me put this all together in a book that can help people get through things in a way that's manageable step-by-step and will be sustainable so that they can use the skills that they're learning forever in their money journey.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I love the tone of the book because and people can hear it in your voice right now that there's an empathy because so often we vilify people for being in financial crisis. When very often, the things that happen, happen to them, like COVID, for example, that were not in their control that, well, of course you can plan for a rainy day, as they say, and have an emergency fund. Life happens, right?

Michele Cagan:
Absolutely. Most people's emergency funds. Unfortunately aren't big enough to weather a true crisis.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And so many things we can't possibly predict. Let's get into your fourth things, your solutions really, that can help us in financial crisis. The first one is actually really the most important I would say, because it's really about taking a step back and assessing things.

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. The very first thing that is helpful to do is to acknowledge, understand, and welcome your existing emotional relationship with money, especially during a crisis. A crisis situation could be something like a divorce or a job loss. They all come with their own huge set of anxiety, fear, self-blame, shame. And it's really hard to separate the emotions from financial tasks and that can leave you completely stuck or make it impossible to move forward. So even if you can't overcome or get rid of emotions, which I'm not suggesting that you do, acknowledge that they're there, pay attention to them, and realize that sometimes when you feel like you can't do something, it's one of your emotions kicking in. And once you face that it can help you take the next step.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Especially during a crisis, our emotions can be our worst enemy or our best assets. So, that's the first thing, is to really understand our emotional relationship with money. The second thing you want to talk about is knowing the financial facts so that we can have the best foundation for moving forward. Tell us more about that.

Michele Cagan:
Even not during a crisis, millions of people have anxiety around money and finances and they don't look at it. They don't want to see it. They don't want to look at their bank accounts or their credit card statements, but when you're in a crisis, it's even more important to know what resources you have. You need to know, how much money I have, where can I get more money from? How much space do I have on my credit cards? How much equity do I have in my house? You need to know what your available resources are, so that you can use them in the most effective way and not run out.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that really holds people back though, is that they don't want to make the wrong move. And not only that, they want to make the perfect decision. That's your third thing to talk about, right?

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. That's a really big sticking point. And that honestly happens to me sometimes too. It causes a decision paralysis because you feel like if I do the wrong thing, X, Y, and Z are going to happen. If I do this wrong thing, I'm going to lose my house. And especially when you're emotional, the consequences that you attach to any specific move can spiral and get even bigger. I'm going to end up homeless. My kid won't have dinner tonight kind of stuff. So making a plan, even if it's not a perfect plan, especially if it's not a perfect plan, anything that will help you take a step, one step at a time, because you can always change your plan. Even after you put it into place, if it's not working, you can change it. But if you don't start with a plan and start making moves, everything is just going to get worse.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what advice would you have for people who can't get over that hurdle? Can you give us maybe a real life example of someone that waited and can't make that next move because they're waiting for it to be perfect?

Michele Cagan:
Oh yeah, absolutely. So I was actually dealing with some really high medical bills and I don't know if you've had this experience, but when a child goes into the hospital, they don't tell you how much you're going to have to pay. It could be $200. It could be $20,000. You can't plan for it. You don't know what it's going to be until after all the bills come in. So I had an experience like that and I thought, it's going to be $3,000. And I planned on that and it ended up being a lot more than that because it didn't turn out the way I expected. And it was so different than what I expected.

Michele Cagan:
I went a little bit into anxiety mode where I was like, okay, I need to figure out exactly how I'm going to pay all of this off, where I'm going to get the money from. And I went through circles and circles and circles of the planing until finally I just said, okay, stop circling, make some phone calls, do one step at a time. Call and see if you can do a payment plan, see where you can move some money around and start taking steps instead of just thinking about the plan spiraling and it made a difference.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's the thing. We're talking about true financial crisis. These are not things that can be instantly solved in wrap it up with a bow and move on with your life. Sometimes there's going to be multiple and longterm steps to get out of it, right?

Michele Cagan:
Absolutely. And most people, in the immediate crisis, there are costs involved with that. But most of the kinds of crises that people face, again, job loss, health problems, a natural disaster, they have ongoing costs. If you have a health problem, you might need medicine or extra treatment or doctor visits for six months or five years. It's not just a one and done thing. With a divorce, you have to set up a whole new household. Your childcare is different. You need health insurance in a different way. So many things change and there are so many moving parts that you really need to work not just small picture, but big picture, but you still have to start with the next step.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said. The fourth one is something that people don't like to say, but I think it's genius. You say that during a crisis, the normal personal finance rules don't apply. So don't follow them. Everyone's always saying follow the things that we know. If you have debt, these are the different things that you can do to pay down the debt. You can use the snowball method. You can use the avalanche method. And this is not just applying to debt. When you say it's okay to break the rules in the crisis, what does that mean? And give us some examples.

Michele Cagan:
So, if somebody's having money a tight finance ... Something came up, they really need more space in their financial. The first thing I tell them to do is stop making retirement plan contributions. Just stop.

Bobbi Rebell:
Really?

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. If you're able to make it up later, that's fine. But if you're choosing between keeping your electricity on or making your mortgage payment and putting money in your retirement account, skip the retirement account for now. I also tell people that, for example, if you are at the beginning of a crisis and you know it's going to last the problems, the financial problems are going to last for a while, you should borrow money as soon as you can because by the time you need to borrow that money, your credit is going to be shot and you're not going to be in as good a position to borrow it.

Michele Cagan:
It's the opposite of what I would normally tell anyone to do. But in a crisis situation, you need to expand your available, your currently available resources, as much as possible. Locking money away in a retirement account, that's not a smart choice because if you need to pull it back out, you've got penalties. You've got interest, you've got taxes if nothing else, unless you put it in a Roth IRA, which is a different situation. I'm just talking more about 401k through work. If you need to use credit cards to make your budget, normally I would tell people, if you can't make your budget without using credit cards, you need to change your budget. But in a crisis situation, if you need to use your credit cards to buy your kids medicine, you do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Michele Cagan:
You use all the financial space you have, and then you work on getting everything under control and managing it better. And then, you can recover financially after the crisis is settled down.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us a few more tips before I let you go because this is really interesting. I'm sitting here and I'm really processing what you're saying. And I think a lot of our listeners are as well. This is really, I hate the expression thinking out of the box. It's so tired, but it really applies in this case because everything you're saying in the context of a crisis does make sense. And yet, it is breaking so many rules.

Michele Cagan:
I know. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of financial professionals who hate this book because of that, quite frankly, I think another thing that's really important for people to do is prioritize their expenses in order of survival. So a lot of times in budgeting advice, it's always money into savings first, money into retirement first. And what I'm saying here is, you pay your house, food, electricity, car, before you do anything else. You need to make sure you can get to a job interview, to the doctor. You need food, you need to live in your house.

Michele Cagan:
And yes, maybe you can downsize some of those expenses, but those are your priorities, your immediate survival expenses are what to focus on. Another thing that I tell people they can do is increase your insurance deductible so that you'll have lower premiums because right now, the current cash matters more than anything else. People can maybe not look at their credit scores for a few months, because it's very possible that during a crisis, their utilization is going to go up and it's going to drop their credit score. It doesn't mean they're a bad person. It doesn't mean they're a big risk. It means that right now, they need to use their available resources. And then, when things are back on track, everything else will fall into place.

Bobbi Rebell:
If we know of a friend or relative who's in a financial crisis, what is the best way to help them? Because we get a lot of mixed messages. Of course, we want to be there for friends and family, but we're also told, you can't always afford to just be ... Sometimes you worry about being an enabler, depending on what caused the crisis. You want to be there for them, but maybe you can't afford to give them money and you want to loan them, but you don't know how things are spiraling out of control. What is the best way to be there for people?

Michele Cagan:
I think one of the best ways to be there for people is honestly just to listen and not try to fix things for them. That's something that a lot of people forget to do. They hear somebody talking about a problem and they immediately go into fix mode. But a lot of times, someone just wants to be able to listen without judgment and not have someone else swoop in. Just to acknowledge, hey, that situation really sucks. Maybe I can take your kids for a few hours. Would that be helpful for you? It doesn't always have to be about money. It has to do about care and support.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good point. And I love that idea of helping with other things that don't necessarily cost you money, but maybe you can help them with their money situation. Because if you can maybe take their kids and give them free babysitting, or maybe you give them a ride to work, if they don't have a car at that time, things like that, maybe are ways that you can help people that are going through a financial crisis. This has been wonderful, Michele. Where can people find out more about you and pick up the book?

Michele Cagan:
They can visit my website, which is MicheleCaganCPA.com. And the book, I think is now available pretty much everywhere.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are your social channels?

Michele Cagan:
I'm on Twitter @MicheleCaganCPA, Facebook at Michele Cagan CPA, and Instagram. Guess what? It's Michele Cagan CPA.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you Michele Cagan CPA for joining us. This has been great. I love the book. I know a lot of our listeners are going to get so much value out of this, not just for themselves, but also for the people that they care about. So thank you so much.

Michele Cagan:
Thank you so much for having me on.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's my take friends. It was really refreshing to hear someone be so real about the stuff that we really don't talk about. A quick recap here. Michele reminds us not to let her emotions get the best of us in a crisis and to actually look at the numbers. It's really hard sometimes, but that's really the only way we're going to know exactly what we're dealing with in terms of how big a crisis is. We also can't wait for the perfect plan. We may be choosing from a bad plan versus an even worse plan. And that is why we may need to break some of the rules we have been told well, to never break. Her book, The Financial Recovery Workbook, is just that, a workbook. It has lots of tools and worksheets to actually execute a lot of the money tips that we've shared on this episode. For more on the podcast, make sure you go to my website, bobbirebell.com and just click on the podcast tab where you can get show notes and full transcripts of every show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Finally, if you enjoy this podcast, I could really use your help. Please tell a friend. You can tell more than one friend, and if you have a free moment, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts and also make sure you're following the podcast. Wherever you listen to you automatically get new episodes once a week. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to listen and to Michele Cagan, CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

Advice, Authors, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanAugust 31, 2021The Financial Recovery Workbook, Financial Recovery Workbook, Michele Cagan, CPA, Author, Financial Crisis

Top 5 Money Tips for Planning for the Unexpected with Vicki Cook and Amy Blacklock

Grownups need to step up and do some planning for things we don’t want to even think about let alone admit we need to be ready to do. The duo behind Women Who Money join us to share their absolute must-do’s right now-without waiting another minute- from their new book Estate Planning 101.

Amy-Blacklock-Vicki-Cook-Main-Instagram-Women-Who-Money.png

5 Money Tips for Planning for the Unexpected

1 - Know your net worth

2 - Speaking of insurance

3 - Name your beneficiaries

4 - Protect yourself in case of emergency

5 - Protect your assets and minor children

Follow Amy + Vicki!

Instagram - @womenwhomoney
Facebook - @MoneyTalkForWomen
Twitter - @WomenWhoMoney
Website - www.womenwhomoney.com

Follow Bobbi!

Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.
Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.
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Full Transcript:

Advice, Authors, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanAugust 24, 2021Amy Blacklock, Vicki Cook, Women Who Money, Estate Planning, Planning, Planning for the Unexpected, Money Tips

Summer Watch Party: Million Dollar Listing New York with special guest co-hosts Paulette Perhach and Erin Lowry.

Bobbi and her guests reveal their connections to MDLNY and share exclusive insider secrets and money lessons learned from the Bravo reality tv series focused on high end New York Real Estate agents in the final installment of the financial grownup summer watch party series.

Summer-Watch-Party-Million-Dollar-Listing-Instagram-with-Erin-Lowry-and-Paulette-Perhach.png

A Little About The Show

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Well, we have to get into it because I also want to reveal the secret connection to the show that we all have. But let's briefly describe what the show is for the few people that have not seen it. It's been running for a lot of years, but we're going to focus mainly on the present year because it's really awesome. Million-dollar Listing has us following a glamorous group of New York city, real estate agents, as they jostled to get the big deals. And I always find the title funny guys, because I don't think there's ever been a deal where it was close to even just a million. These are mega deals. This season, thankfully, finally, we had a woman join the cast, which besides being obviously long overdue is also where you come in, Paulette.

Paulette Perhach:
Yes. I work with KJ bringing her power and her incredible spirit into the written word for her. I work as her writer, so it's like I get the KJ live show and she's a powerhouse. She's had an incredible effect on me as a businesswoman, just over the last year, working with her.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right and KJ, I should say is short for Kirsten-Jordan who's wonderful and she has been rising through the ranks of brokers. I don't know how she was not well known before this show because she is phenomenal. And through you Paulette, Erin and I have met her right Erin?

Erin Lowry:
Sure have. It was my first real life Bravo celebrity meeting and can I just say, I'm going to disclaimer this right now. I'm a massive Bravo fan. I watch every version of the real Housewives, but I had never watched a million dollar listings before about 24 hours before recording with this podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get into the show. First of all, each of you ladies general take on the show.

Paulette Perhach:
So I obviously have been watching it. I have it on my calendar when it comes out. I see how hard KJ works behind the scenes and then to see how it's all glammed up and like, "Oh, I'm throwing a party to sellers." And it looks so easy. So it's really fun to see behind the scenes how hard she's working. I find it inspiring. You do have to control your FOMO at like, "I will never have a pool in my New York City apartment." But in the same way that part of my business plan came from watching Shark Tank, I think we could all learn about sales from watching Million Dollar Listing and just get some fabulous decorating ideas that we can try to recreate an Ikea.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
The negotiating and sales tips and how to create a scarcity environment when one doesn't necessarily exist are really impressive takeaways from the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
On almost every episode in almost every deal the brokers come in and I'm shocked that people sometimes allow themselves to be filmed this way, knowing they're going to be basically talked about behind their back and yet on national TV about their bad taste because they come in and they basically swoop in, get rid of their stuff and stage it, which is insulting to the people that own it. To me, that's a mini-lesson about the illusion and going to something I know Paulette is very good at, which is storytelling because they basically take out the owner's story and put in the story of what they think will be worth the most money.

Paulette Perhach:
Or neutral. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:08:56]. They neutralize it.

Paulette Perhach:
So you can envision your own story without it being... That 11 Madison, I think it was, "mansion", that was a 3000 square feet inside 3000 square feet outside. That was so gaudy. It had the gold couch. I was deeply stressed watching this episode and yeah, it made sense, where it was like, "It's better to have it empty than to have this gold couch in here."

Bobbi Rebell:
The that I thought about that episode was when Tyler rented the band, I was like, "Couldn't you have just rented couches for a night instead of a band?"

Paulette Perhach:
Well, that's what Ryan Serhand said. He's like "There's chairs for the musicians, but not chairs for the brokers who are here to help you sell your place. What are young doing?"

Bobbi Rebell:
It also to the point of FOMO, I think that it also helps you see behind the curtain in some ways, even though, I'm interested to see what Paulette says about what really goes on behind the scenes more, but it helps you see that so much of what we buy is a marketing illusion. That when they stage an apartment and we see them remake it in relative to the price inexpensive way, although I'm mortified at what they spend to stage. It can be crazy money to stage these things. They're presenting it so it can sell, but there's nothing under there. Half the time the bed doesn't even have a real mattress. It's not even an actual bed and you can't actually use it. It's all for show.

Erin Lowry:
In context for people about crazy amount of money. We're talking between 70 to $150,000 to stage a lot of these apartments.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is an inconceivable film. If a broker came to me and said that would just walk away.

Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Erin Lowry:
It's interesting too, on the point of what they have to do to the apartment. And I'm really curious, Paulette for you to speak to what they as sellers have to be doing. The clothing that they have to wear, the hairstyles, they have to have the amount of upkeep of their own appearance. You see on the first episode of the season, Tyler, who I assume is a fairly new addition, maybe it was their last season season.

Bobbi Rebell:
Last season.

Erin Lowry:
He talks about the clothing that he's having to buy the amount of money he's having to put into presentation so that his vibe is matching his desired clientele's vibe. And that's a huge upfront cost. Sure, we're seeing that they're getting these commissions of like 250, half a million dollars, but also how much are they having to sink into the business as a whole? And that includes themselves.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah. So Frederick says to spend 10% of your commissions on your wardrobe, which is a ton. That's crazy.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're making shocked expressions by the way.

Paulette Perhach:
Shocked emoji faces. And actually Kirsten and I are working on a blog post about her deciding like what is spending and what's investing and it is so funny because when you are on the other side of the illusion, this is something that I struggle with personally, as a writer and as an artist and someone who hopes to deal in truth, but also wants to own a house one day. You know that by creating you can make more money and yet how much of your life do you want to spend in illusion and how much... I know for example, if I buy a bunch of fancy clothes and I pretend like my life is all fine and dandy on Instagram and just take pretty pictures all over the place, then I'll get more followers, I'll make more money, but how far do you want to go from that in a personal way?

Paulette Perhach:
So anyway, that's my artist's side of the thing. But yeah, I know there's a lot of pressure to match that vibe and the fashion vibe of your clients, which is a lot. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of planning and it's a consideration as an investment and I think more and more as my own business owner, I do realize that the face that I present to the world, I want it to be like the best expression of me and the way that I think about it as a business owner is fashion and preparing myself in a way that says, "Hey, I'm in here. This is me. And I'm in here." I want to like dress to celebrate the day. Someone said, "Dressing well as good manners."` And I really liked that phrasing. So there's so many levels to take it. And yeah, I think that when you were selling to people at the highest level of income, there is pressure to look like them and to look like them cost a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
Oh, I agree. I also think it's interesting what of that is a tax deduction and what isn't, when you come to thinking about investing in yourself? I remember a couple of years ago, and if you couldn't tell from my feelings about designing my home, I feel the same way about clothing. I am bad at that. That is just a pain point I know I have. I was never taught how to dress cute fashion is not my thing.

Erin Lowry:
If I could wear athleisure all the time and get away with it socially, I definitely would. But I also realized that's a pain point you can outsource. So a couple of years ago, I hired a stylist to work with to try to learn how to dress to my body.

Erin Lowry:
What kind of brands looked good on me? How to put certain pieces together, working with what I already had in my closet. And what was interesting is because it's for a lot of professional engagements and it was professional clothing, the stylist fee could be a deduction, but the clothing itself could not. So it's always interesting, depending on your job, what you could write off and what you can't. I know people who model, for instance, I think there's certain hair, nail, stuff, type upkeep that they could possibly get a write off on. So I'm curious with luxury real estate, what are the rules for them? What is reasonable right off?

Paulette Perhach:
[crosstalk 00:14:21] have to wear makeup and heels and nice clothes to work, to make more money, that is a cost of doing business and I want to put it on my taxes. I also don't want to be audited.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah, that's a big part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
This last year in 2020, every woman should be able to put makeup on their tax deduction if we're all doing Zoom meetings all the time.

Erin Lowry:
Yes.

Paulette Perhach:
Other people did used to see you in person anyway, I don't know. I think it would be nice. I don't know. That's a whole topic. That's a rabbit hole.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a whole rabbit hole.

Paulette Perhach:
Get out while you can.

Bobbi Rebell:
What else can you share with us that you've learned from working with KJ about the show and maybe the lessons that she's learned? By the way, she's been on the podcast and she should have been there all along and there should be the fact that there's one woman and we have to make a big deal out of it is stupid. There just should be many women and whatever.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah because 64% of realtors are women.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly. But the fact is it is what it is. For now she came into this group of men, she more than held her own. So can we just talk about that dynamic a little bit and the lessons that maybe women can learn when they are suddenly as unjust as it is brought into a group of men?

Paulette Perhach:
Gosh, I think that there's... Kirsten's a powerhouse, but also just a very kind person and does it in this way where she stands in her power in such an inspiring way to me, and knows her value and is honest with people and direct, but doesn't have to come in throwing blows. It's not about anyone else it's about her and how she brings value to the situation.

Paulette Perhach:
It's like a race against herself and it's all an internal thing. It's not me versus the world, is that the sense that I get with her. And just overall watching the show as someone who is a writer who writes artistically and writes for my business, just seeing how much value storytelling has in sales. It's incredible. Every sale is a story. And for me, with writers who I have such a hard time getting my coaching clients to ask for money. Erin and Bobby, you guys have been such a part of my personal journey, learning to ask for money and learning to ask for what I'm worth. And it's just very cool to see that in this ecosystem where a lot of money is being thrown around that writers are an a central part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
And KJ is awesome because she helps moms see that if they want to have it all, they can't do it all and they need to learn to delegate and to outsource and if they want to be working moms, running their own empire. And so she's open about having a writer. She's not out there pretending, "Oh yes, I do. I have eight arms and I'm irony with my foot as I type out my marketing emails," and things like that. She is so transparent in a way that I think is not only an inspiration, but also a model to follow for other realtors.

Erin Lowry:
I also think an interesting part of her narrative is who you marry has a really big impact on your career. Especially for women, particularly those of us in heterosexual relationship dynamics, where it still tends to people defer to men more often than not. She married somebody who's also in the business, but does a different side of the business so that they can collaborate and be collaborators and push each other, but also work together.

Erin Lowry:
And I thought it was really to hear a little insight to boundary setting between the two of them. In the early episode, they talk about one of the listings that he had, that she said "I was too far along in my pregnancy to take it on when it went to market." And that's just a little boundary that you heard gets set with these two people who clearly work together a lot, but don't work for the same company, do different sides in the real estate industry. But on the flip side, she goes to Tyler's open house at the "mansion" location and her husband's there. Her husband's a developer. He can schmooze with the developer that owned the place. They can go up and see the penthouses that aren't listed. It's a very interesting ecosystem that they can create for themselves too, to really both be powerful in their own right, but also be powerful together.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good point. She also puts her kids in the show. She doesn't hide that she is a working mom. Some of the other people on the show have kids as well and we see them with the moms, primarily taking care of the kids, which is interesting. We got to see a lot more of the cast. I know Erin, you didn't watch other seasons of it, but we will see more of their home life because of the pandemic. And so the final money lesson strategy that I wanted to touch on was adapting to the unexpected because the show was filming while this all happened. They started filming before the pandemic and then on from there. And I met KJ through Paulette during the pandemic and I was like, "Wait, what? You're you're filming now? How is that working? You can't even show real estate." So I was truly impressed as I've been seeing the episodes of how they adapted their businesses in literally an impossible environment. They were not allowed. There were robots there. It was awesome and ridiculous at the same time. What do you guys think?

Erin Lowry:
I jumped ahead to a pandemic episode because first it was very jarring and the opening episodes that no one had masks on. I was like, "What? Who's walking around New York city without a mask what's going on here?" And they make it clear that we're backdating before the pandemic now the pandemic hit. So the two things that I found really intriguing: one, is his name Steve?Stephen? The guy who had the luscious hair that he shaved off

Paulette Perhach:
He's a former mode, by the way.

Erin Lowry:
It was said multiple times. I got that and I watched three episodes. So he went out and diversified immediately by getting his license in other states. Because as soon as stuff started fleeing Manhattan going upstate and all that property was getting hot and heavy. He got his license, I think in Massachusetts and Connecticut, in addition to having it in New York so that he could diversify out, which I thought was really interesting. And then also Ryan Serhand deciding to double down on starting his own company and making the comment about, "When others are fleeing, that's when you really need to put the pedal to the metal." As someone who did take some time off in the pandemic, because I was exhausted, it was a very interesting other side argument.

Bobbi Rebell:
You did take time off, but you also had your third seller come out. Let's just everybody of the Broke Millennials series. Okay. Those were great standup moments. Paulette, what were your standout moments?

Paulette Perhach:
I think it reminded me as a business person to just delve down into what is your core value? And accepting whatever comes our way, even though 2020 seemed like the most unacceptable year in the history of the world as we all know it. For example, I was inspired by it's Sia's choreographer did an online dance class. That was the first time that I think I laughed during the pandemic. Then I started an online writing group that meets every morning. And so just seeing how they didn't let themselves spin out all the brokers on the show and there was just a lot of positive self-talk that you could see because it's so tempting to wallow and I find myself there too.

Paulette Perhach:
But it's so much about resilience and grit is catching yourself in those low moments and being like, "Okay, I accept that this is really hard and I'm going to feel bad for myself for the next 30 seconds." And then, "All right, come on. What can we do? What do we have control of?" It felt like our locus of control shrank down to the size of a pea during 2020, but within that tiny, tiny circle, it's like, "What can I do? And how can I still help people and be of service even during this time when everything changes?" I think as the faster you can get yourself out of that cycle, the more powerful you can be as a business person.

Erin Lowry:
I was going to say, the other thing that I liked seeing, and I didn't get a whole lot of the pandemic episodes, but there were moments of celebrating small wins and I felt on both a personal front and a professional front. And that is a take away I think all of us need to have coming out of the pandemic is just taking moments of celebrating, even if it's something little or that you are deciding as little, celebrate it, be excited about it. Not everything has to be like, "I just sold a $30 million house and got a bonkers commission." Sometimes it can just be the little things that make you feel really good too.

Bobbi Rebell:
I totally agree and I also liked seeing the adaptability of not just the stars of the show, but also their clients and the realness of it, because some of it was to balance out your happy celebration moments, just the genuine sadness of a life that had to change. There's a woman on there who put her heart and soul and a ton of money into decorating her apartment to be basically Palm Beach in New York. It's very, as they like to say "Specific style." I still can't decide if I love it or hate it, but it is very intentional, very overdone to some degree, every little square foot of this apartment is decorated because she intended to spend her life there and for reasons that they don't get into huge details on the show, she has to move to Florida permanently. I was like, "Can't you rent it for a few years?"

Bobbi Rebell:
No. It's very clear this house, this apartment is being sold and she just has such a hard time even getting out of the apartment so that they can show it because she's like, "I need more time with my home." And I think that that reflected this gradual acceptance that we all have had to had at some level of, "Wow, we just have to let some things go that just, we thought were going to happen and the pandemic did change everything and we have to adapt, but it's okay to also be sad and be human." And that story really got to me and it is very much a story as Paulette likes to say.

Paulette Perhach:
It was the morning of the life that she wasn't going to have was clearly what was happening. But flip side, Tyler, who was the broker she was working with in that scene, he has a life coach and you can tell he has a life coach in that scene because he made a comment about, "Our life as a pie and this is just a slice and you're going to Florida and that's just a slice and if you don't like it, you can always come back." And I thought that was such a good way. He clearly was just trying to talk his client down to get her out of the house so he could show this apartment, but he came again with an element of storytelling and also with empathy and compassion. And it wasn't just, "Hey, if you want me to get you the most money GTFO this apartment."

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't know that she cared to get every last dollar out of there. I think she just was coming to terms with this. And it's a very human show in that way, because you do see that even though there's big dollars. They flash the numbers on the screen constantly of what the apartment's asking, what the commission would be and all this stuff. There's still humans in the show. And there's a lot of stories to be told.

Erin Lowry:
I have a question For Paulette. I don't know if you've ever had this conversation with KJ, but how does she feel about just tiny slices of her income flashing on the screen national television?

Paulette Perhach:
We haven't discussed that. She's literally-

Bobbi Rebell:
That would be interesting to know.

Paulette Perhach:
... She's so busy. I would be surprised if she even saw that happened. And it's so funny. A lot of the, they talked about on the Andy Cohen show that a lot of them fast forward through the parts that other people are on. Oh my God. But yeah, they're busy.

Erin Lowry:
So do the housewives.

Bobbi Rebell:
They just watch themselves?

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so narcissistic. Oh my gosh.

Paulette Perhach:
I think the take away is that people who are making that much money are working so hard. And I know in my soul that I will never work as hard as Kirsten. And so it's like, "You want to be this successful. You want to be at this level. This is what it takes." And I look at it and I'm like, "I'm going to take a nap and then let's regroup." it's a fun thing to see. Yes, this is the payoff, but also pay attention to how hard they're working, because you only see 1% of it on the show and it's bananas.

Erin Lowry:
I love that takeaway. And I would couple it with just seeing tiny slices of what they're having to do to try to have some element of self care, or at the very least keep their appearances where they need them to be. How they get the working out in. How they get some of the cosmetology tweaks that are happening and drinking your junk juice, going to acupuncturist, whatever it is that you need to be doing and anytime any of them are in those "self care moments" and I don't know if it's for camera or what happens. They always take calls. That's the other thing they are always on call. There is no off switch on these folks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I love the human element. I love that they, as the show has grown and I think, I don't quite remember, so I could be a little bit off, but I don't think any of the original brokers when it started had families. And so for me as a longtime viewer and fan of the show, I really love seeing how we've traveled through the different seasons and hopefully for many more seasons with KJ and seeing how they've grown, how they've evolved, how they've grown their businesses and how they've grown their families. They come on a lot of these guys as single guys, and now they're all moving into family mode and it's really nice to see. And we've also had Ryan on the show, I should acknowledge as well. He was great. Maybe we'll have him on again in the future. I think that they are all very interesting characters, but also very human to us as they come across. I think Robert does a great job presenting the show and creating storylines.

Follow Paulette!

Instagram - @paulettejperhach
Facebook - @pauletteisawriter
Twitter - @pauletteperhach
LinkedIn - @pauletteperhach
Website - http://www.pauletteperhach.com

Follow Erin!

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Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Paulette Perhach:
You want to be this successful? You want to be at this level? This is what it takes. And I look at it and I'm like, "I'm going to take a nap and then let's regroup."

Erin Lowry:
Anytime any of them are in those "self-care moments", they always take calls. They are always on call. There is no off switch on these folks.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome friends to the fifth and final installment of our 2021 Financial Grown-up Summer Watch Party series. Having spent so much time at home in the past year and a half, one thing I've done with my time is, well, watch a ton of TV. And in that time, I have discovered there are a lot of streaming TV gems out there that have some really good money lessons. So I decided to bring on some friends, and discuss and have this summer watch party. So far, we have covered the Ashton Kutcher produced Going From Broke, which is on Crackle. Now I had not known of this network really before, but it is free, so definitely download Crackle or whatever, get to Crackle however you do, on your TV, and check out Going From Broke. It literally had me crying because the people that they have on this show were so good hearted, so well-meaning, and such interesting stories.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's just really well produced. We also talked about the new Netflix series, My Unorthodox Life, featuring entrepreneur Julia Haart, and her family and friends and coworkers. I think this family maybe the next Kardashians, but there was a lot of controversy about the show in the news because of how they presented their former life. There is a lot out there to this. Google it, just trust me. And then also obviously listened to our episode about it, and watch the show, but Google it for the controversy. In our third week of our little Summer Watch series, we got into it with some definite disagreements about whether the money lessons were good lessons, or bad lessons on the Netflix series, Marriage or Mortgage. My co-host, Andy Hill, held his own and we ended up agreeing to disagree. And then last week my husband came on the podcast to discuss and share his take on Jim Belushi's cannabis farm reality TV show on discovery, Growing Belushi, where his family actually had an intervention talking about concerns that the business was taking over his life and he didn't know what he was doing, which is kind of true. If you watch the show, you'll have to see.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sadly though, also we may have been witnessing some of the feelings that led to the recent announcement that Jim Belushi and his wife of 23 years, Jennifer, are splitting up. So we're very sad, and it's interesting. It makes the show all the more compelling to really look at what's going on behind the scenes as, yes, it's a cannabis farm and that's interesting in and of itself, but this is also someone starting a new family business and how it's impacting all of them. All of this to say it's been a great series, and if you have not listened so far, I highly recommend that you check out those episodes. This week, we have a really special show with a take on a show, a reality TV show that I can promise you, you will not hear anywhere else.

Bobbi Rebell:
We cannot possibly do a reality TV series without including a Bravo show, because who really does it better than Bravo, right? So we are going to be discussing Million Dollar Listing New York, MDLNY for the super fans. This is going to be next level because of my guests, and the exclusive information and insights that they bring to the table. Okay. First we have friend of the podcast, Ms. Paulette Perhach. Very famous writer in her own right, here to so many of us because of her F-U fund. But she also has a unique connection to the show that we will share in a moment. And we also have bestselling author, Erin Lowry, also a friend of the podcast, known for her trifecta of books in the Broke Millennial series and so much more, those introductions by the way, ladies do not do justice to all of your accomplishments, but in the interest of keeping the podcast a reasonable length, we will leave it there. Welcome.

Paulette Perhach:
Thanks for having us. I haven't heard trifecta yet. I'm going to start stealing that now.

Bobbi Rebell:
Trifecta. You did.

Paulette Perhach:
I know I did. I just had never thought... I keep saying three-part I'm like, "Ugh, trifecta so much better. Why didn't I wordsmith that?"

Bobbi Rebell:
That? Yeah. A triptych of financial wisdom.

Paulette Perhach:
Well, that's just too advanced. Get your $2 words out of here.

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:05:36] to the art world.

Erin Lowry:
We all come from the art world. Give you a triptych.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Well, we have to get into it because I also want to reveal the secret connection to the show that we all have. But let's briefly describe what the show is for the few people that have not seen it. It's been running for a lot of years, but we're going to focus mainly on the present year because it's really awesome. Million-dollar Listing has us following a glamorous group of New York city, real estate agents, as they jostled to get the big deals. And I always find the title funny guys, because I don't think there's ever been a deal where it was close to even just a million. These are mega deals. This season, thankfully, finally, we had a woman join the cast, which besides being obviously long overdue is also where you come in, Paulette.

Paulette Perhach:
Yes. I work with KJ bringing her power and her incredible spirit into the written word for her. I work as her writer, so it's like I get the KJ live show and she's a powerhouse. She's had an incredible effect on me as a businesswoman, just over the last year, working with her.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right and KJ, I should say is short for Kirsten-Jordan who's wonderful and she has been rising through the ranks of brokers. I don't know how she was not well known before this show because she is phenomenal. And through you Paulette, Erin and I have met her right Erin?

Erin Lowry:
Sure have. It was my first real life Bravo celebrity meeting and can I just say, I'm going to disclaimer this right now. I'm a massive Bravo fan. I watch every version of the real Housewives, but I had never watched a million dollar listings before about 24 hours before recording with this podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get into the show. First of all, each of you ladies general take on the show.

Paulette Perhach:
So I obviously have been watching it. I have it on my calendar when it comes out. I see how hard KJ works behind the scenes and then to see how it's all glammed up and like, "Oh, I'm throwing a party to sellers." And it looks so easy. So it's really fun to see behind the scenes how hard she's working. I find it inspiring. You do have to control your FOMO at like, "I will never have a pool in my New York City apartment." But in the same way that part of my business plan came from watching Shark Tank, I think we could all learn about sales from watching Million Dollar Listing and just get some fabulous decorating ideas that we can try to recreate an Ikea.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
The negotiating and sales tips and how to create a scarcity environment when one doesn't necessarily exist are really impressive takeaways from the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
On almost every episode in almost every deal the brokers come in and I'm shocked that people sometimes allow themselves to be filmed this way, knowing they're going to be basically talked about behind their back and yet on national TV about their bad taste because they come in and they basically swoop in, get rid of their stuff and stage it, which is insulting to the people that own it. To me, that's a mini-lesson about the illusion and going to something I know Paulette is very good at, which is storytelling because they basically take out the owner's story and put in the story of what they think will be worth the most money.

Paulette Perhach:
Or neutral. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:08:56]. They neutralize it.

Paulette Perhach:
So you can envision your own story without it being... That 11 Madison, I think it was, "mansion", that was a 3000 square feet inside 3000 square feet outside. That was so gaudy. It had the gold couch. I was deeply stressed watching this episode and yeah, it made sense, where it was like, "It's better to have it empty than to have this gold couch in here."

Bobbi Rebell:
The that I thought about that episode was when Tyler rented the band, I was like, "Couldn't you have just rented couches for a night instead of a band?"

Paulette Perhach:
Well, that's what Ryan Serhand said. He's like "There's chairs for the musicians, but not chairs for the brokers who are here to help you sell your place. What are young doing?"

Bobbi Rebell:
It also to the point of FOMO, I think that it also helps you see behind the curtain in some ways, even though, I'm interested to see what Paulette says about what really goes on behind the scenes more, but it helps you see that so much of what we buy is a marketing illusion. That when they stage an apartment and we see them remake it in relative to the price inexpensive way, although I'm mortified at what they spend to stage. It can be crazy money to stage these things. They're presenting it so it can sell, but there's nothing under there. Half the time the bed doesn't even have a real mattress. It's not even an actual bed and you can't actually use it. It's all for show.

Erin Lowry:
In context for people about crazy amount of money. We're talking between 70 to $150,000 to stage a lot of these apartments.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is an inconceivable film. If a broker came to me and said that would just walk away.

Erin Lowry:
It's interesting too, on the point of what they have to do to the apartment. And I'm really curious, Paulette for you to speak to what they as sellers have to be doing. The clothing that they have to wear, the hairstyles, they have to have the amount of upkeep of their own appearance. You see on the first episode of the season, Tyler, who I assume is a fairly new addition, maybe it was their last season season.

Bobbi Rebell:
Last season.

Erin Lowry:
He talks about the clothing that he's having to buy the amount of money he's having to put into presentation so that his vibe is matching his desired clientele's vibe. And that's a huge upfront cost. Sure, we're seeing that they're getting these commissions of like 250, half a million dollars, but also how much are they having to sink into the business as a whole? And that includes themselves.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah. So Frederick says to spend 10% of your commissions on your wardrobe, which is a ton. That's crazy.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're making shocked expressions by the way.

Paulette Perhach:
Shocked emoji faces. And actually Kirsten and I are working on a blog post about her deciding like what is spending and what's investing and it is so funny because when you are on the other side of the illusion, this is something that I struggle with personally, as a writer and as an artist and someone who hopes to deal in truth, but also wants to own a house one day. You know that by creating you can make more money and yet how much of your life do you want to spend in illusion and how much... I know for example, if I buy a bunch of fancy clothes and I pretend like my life is all fine and dandy on Instagram and just take pretty pictures all over the place, then I'll get more followers, I'll make more money, but how far do you want to go from that in a personal way?

Paulette Perhach:
So anyway, that's my artist's side of the thing. But yeah, I know there's a lot of pressure to match that vibe and the fashion vibe of your clients, which is a lot. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of planning and it's a consideration as an investment and I think more and more as my own business owner, I do realize that the face that I present to the world, I want it to be like the best expression of me and the way that I think about it as a business owner is fashion and preparing myself in a way that says, "Hey, I'm in here. This is me. And I'm in here." I want to like dress to celebrate the day. Someone said, "Dressing well as good manners."` And I really liked that phrasing. So there's so many levels to take it. And yeah, I think that when you were selling to people at the highest level of income, there is pressure to look like them and to look like them cost a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
Oh, I agree. I also think it's interesting what of that is a tax deduction and what isn't, when you come to thinking about investing in yourself? I remember a couple of years ago, and if you couldn't tell from my feelings about designing my home, I feel the same way about clothing. I am bad at that. That is just a pain point I know I have. I was never taught how to dress cute fashion is not my thing.

Erin Lowry:
If I could wear athleisure all the time and get away with it socially, I definitely would. But I also realized that's a pain point you can outsource. So a couple of years ago, I hired a stylist to work with to try to learn how to dress to my body.

Erin Lowry:
What kind of brands looked good on me? How to put certain pieces together, working with what I already had in my closet. And what was interesting is because it's for a lot of professional engagements and it was professional clothing, the stylist fee could be a deduction, but the clothing itself could not. So it's always interesting, depending on your job, what you could write off and what you can't. I know people who model, for instance, I think there's certain hair, nail, stuff, type upkeep that they could possibly get a write off on. So I'm curious with luxury real estate, what are the rules for them? What is reasonable right off?

Paulette Perhach:
[crosstalk 00:14:21] have to wear makeup and heels and nice clothes to work, to make more money, that is a cost of doing business and I want to put it on my taxes. I also don't want to be audited.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah, that's a big part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
This last year in 2020, every woman should be able to put makeup on their tax deduction if we're all doing Zoom meetings all the time.

Erin Lowry:
Yes.

Paulette Perhach:
Other people did used to see you in person anyway, I don't know. I think it would be nice. I don't know. That's a whole topic. That's a rabbit hole.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a whole rabbit hole.

Paulette Perhach:
Get out while you can.

Bobbi Rebell:
What else can you share with us that you've learned from working with KJ about the show and maybe the lessons that she's learned? By the way, she's been on the podcast and she should have been there all along and there should be the fact that there's one woman and we have to make a big deal out of it is stupid. There just should be many women and whatever.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah because 64% of realtors are women.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly. But the fact is it is what it is. For now she came into this group of men, she more than held her own. So can we just talk about that dynamic a little bit and the lessons that maybe women can learn when they are suddenly as unjust as it is brought into a group of men?

Paulette Perhach:
Gosh, I think that there's... Kirsten's a powerhouse, but also just a very kind person and does it in this way where she stands in her power in such an inspiring way to me, and knows her value and is honest with people and direct, but doesn't have to come in throwing blows. It's not about anyone else it's about her and how she brings value to the situation.

Paulette Perhach:
It's like a race against herself and it's all an internal thing. It's not me versus the world, is that the sense that I get with her. And just overall watching the show as someone who is a writer who writes artistically and writes for my business, just seeing how much value storytelling has in sales. It's incredible. Every sale is a story. And for me, with writers who I have such a hard time getting my coaching clients to ask for money. Erin and Bobby, you guys have been such a part of my personal journey, learning to ask for money and learning to ask for what I'm worth. And it's just very cool to see that in this ecosystem where a lot of money is being thrown around that writers are an a central part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
And KJ is awesome because she helps moms see that if they want to have it all, they can't do it all and they need to learn to delegate and to outsource and if they want to be working moms, running their own empire. And so she's open about having a writer. She's not out there pretending, "Oh yes, I do. I have eight arms and I'm irony with my foot as I type out my marketing emails," and things like that. She is so transparent in a way that I think is not only an inspiration, but also a model to follow for other realtors.

Erin Lowry:
I also think an interesting part of her narrative is who you marry has a really big impact on your career. Especially for women, particularly those of us in heterosexual relationship dynamics, where it still tends to people defer to men more often than not. She married somebody who's also in the business, but does a different side of the business so that they can collaborate and be collaborators and push each other, but also work together.

Erin Lowry:
And I thought it was really to hear a little insight to boundary setting between the two of them. In the early episode, they talk about one of the listings that he had, that she said "I was too far along in my pregnancy to take it on when it went to market." And that's just a little boundary that you heard gets set with these two people who clearly work together a lot, but don't work for the same company, do different sides in the real estate industry. But on the flip side, she goes to Tyler's open house at the "mansion" location and her husband's there. Her husband's a developer. He can schmooze with the developer that owned the place. They can go up and see the penthouses that aren't listed. It's a very interesting ecosystem that they can create for themselves too, to really both be powerful in their own right, but also be powerful together.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good point. She also puts her kids in the show. She doesn't hide that she is a working mom. Some of the other people on the show have kids as well and we see them with the moms, primarily taking care of the kids, which is interesting. We got to see a lot more of the cast. I know Erin, you didn't watch other seasons of it, but we will see more of their home life because of the pandemic. And so the final money lesson strategy that I wanted to touch on was adapting to the unexpected because the show was filming while this all happened. They started filming before the pandemic and then on from there. And I met KJ through Paulette during the pandemic and I was like, "Wait, what? You're you're filming now? How is that working? You can't even show real estate." So I was truly impressed as I've been seeing the episodes of how they adapted their businesses in literally an impossible environment. They were not allowed. There were robots there. It was awesome and ridiculous at the same time. What do you guys think?

Erin Lowry:
I jumped ahead to a pandemic episode because first it was very jarring and the opening episodes that no one had masks on. I was like, "What? Who's walking around New York city without a mask what's going on here?" And they make it clear that we're backdating before the pandemic now the pandemic hit. So the two things that I found really intriguing: one, is his name Steve?Stephen? The guy who had the luscious hair that he shaved off

Paulette Perhach:
He's a former mode, by the way.

Erin Lowry:
It was said multiple times. I got that and I watched three episodes. So he went out and diversified immediately by getting his license in other states. Because as soon as stuff started fleeing Manhattan going upstate and all that property was getting hot and heavy. He got his license, I think in Massachusetts and Connecticut, in addition to having it in New York so that he could diversify out, which I thought was really interesting. And then also Ryan Serhand deciding to double down on starting his own company and making the comment about, "When others are fleeing, that's when you really need to put the pedal to the metal." As someone who did take some time off in the pandemic, because I was exhausted, it was a very interesting other side argument.

Bobbi Rebell:
You did take time off, but you also had your third seller come out. Let's just everybody of the Broke Millennials series. Okay. Those were great standup moments. Paulette, what were your standout moments?

Paulette Perhach:
I think it reminded me as a business person to just delve down into what is your core value? And accepting whatever comes our way, even though 2020 seemed like the most unacceptable year in the history of the world as we all know it. For example, I was inspired by it's Sia's choreographer did an online dance class. That was the first time that I think I laughed during the pandemic. Then I started an online writing group that meets every morning. And so just seeing how they didn't let themselves spin out all the brokers on the show and there was just a lot of positive self-talk that you could see because it's so tempting to wallow and I find myself there too.

Paulette Perhach:
But it's so much about resilience and grit is catching yourself in those low moments and being like, "Okay, I accept that this is really hard and I'm going to feel bad for myself for the next 30 seconds." And then, "All right, come on. What can we do? What do we have control of?" It felt like our locus of control shrank down to the size of a pea during 2020, but within that tiny, tiny circle, it's like, "What can I do? And how can I still help people and be of service even during this time when everything changes?" I think as the faster you can get yourself out of that cycle, the more powerful you can be as a business person.

Erin Lowry:
I was going to say, the other thing that I liked seeing, and I didn't get a whole lot of the pandemic episodes, but there were moments of celebrating small wins and I felt on both a personal front and a professional front. And that is a take away I think all of us need to have coming out of the pandemic is just taking moments of celebrating, even if it's something little or that you are deciding as little, celebrate it, be excited about it. Not everything has to be like, "I just sold a $30 million house and got a bonkers commission." Sometimes it can just be the little things that make you feel really good too.

Bobbi Rebell:
I totally agree and I also liked seeing the adaptability of not just the stars of the show, but also their clients and the realness of it, because some of it was to balance out your happy celebration moments, just the genuine sadness of a life that had to change. There's a woman on there who put her heart and soul and a ton of money into decorating her apartment to be basically Palm Beach in New York. It's very, as they like to say "Specific style." I still can't decide if I love it or hate it, but it is very intentional, very overdone to some degree, every little square foot of this apartment is decorated because she intended to spend her life there and for reasons that they don't get into huge details on the show, she has to move to Florida permanently. I was like, "Can't you rent it for a few years?"

Bobbi Rebell:
No. It's very clear this house, this apartment is being sold and she just has such a hard time even getting out of the apartment so that they can show it because she's like, "I need more time with my home." And I think that that reflected this gradual acceptance that we all have had to had at some level of, "Wow, we just have to let some things go that just, we thought were going to happen and the pandemic did change everything and we have to adapt, but it's okay to also be sad and be human." And that story really got to me and it is very much a story as Paulette likes to say.

Paulette Perhach:
It was the morning of the life that she wasn't going to have was clearly what was happening. But flip side, Tyler, who was the broker she was working with in that scene, he has a life coach and you can tell he has a life coach in that scene because he made a comment about, "Our life as a pie and this is just a slice and you're going to Florida and that's just a slice and if you don't like it, you can always come back." And I thought that was such a good way. He clearly was just trying to talk his client down to get her out of the house so he could show this apartment, but he came again with an element of storytelling and also with empathy and compassion. And it wasn't just, "Hey, if you want me to get you the most money GTFO this apartment."

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't know that she cared to get every last dollar out of there. I think she just was coming to terms with this. And it's a very human show in that way, because you do see that even though there's big dollars. They flash the numbers on the screen constantly of what the apartment's asking, what the commission would be and all this stuff. There's still humans in the show. And there's a lot of stories to be told.

Erin Lowry:
I have a question For Paulette. I don't know if you've ever had this conversation with KJ, but how does she feel about just tiny slices of her income flashing on the screen national television?

Paulette Perhach:
We haven't discussed that. She's literally-

Bobbi Rebell:
That would be interesting to know.

Paulette Perhach:
... She's so busy. I would be surprised if she even saw that happened. And it's so funny. A lot of the, they talked about on the Andy Cohen show that a lot of them fast forward through the parts that other people are on. Oh my God. But yeah, they're busy.

Erin Lowry:
So do the housewives.

Bobbi Rebell:
They just watch themselves?

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so narcissistic. Oh my gosh.

Paulette Perhach:
I think the take away is that people who are making that much money are working so hard. And I know in my soul that I will never work as hard as Kirsten. And so it's like, "You want to be this successful. You want to be at this level. This is what it takes." And I look at it and I'm like, "I'm going to take a nap and then let's regroup." it's a fun thing to see. Yes, this is the payoff, but also pay attention to how hard they're working, because you only see 1% of it on the show and it's bananas.

Erin Lowry:
I love that takeaway. And I would couple it with just seeing tiny slices of what they're having to do to try to have some element of self care, or at the very least keep their appearances where they need them to be. How they get the working out in. How they get some of the cosmetology tweaks that are happening and drinking your junk juice, going to acupuncturist, whatever it is that you need to be doing and anytime any of them are in those "self care moments" and I don't know if it's for camera or what happens. They always take calls. That's the other thing they are always on call. There is no off switch on these folks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I love the human element. I love that they, as the show has grown and I think, I don't quite remember, so I could be a little bit off, but I don't think any of the original brokers when it started had families. And so for me as a longtime viewer and fan of the show, I really love seeing how we've traveled through the different seasons and hopefully for many more seasons with KJ and seeing how they've grown, how they've evolved, how they've grown their businesses and how they've grown their families. They come on a lot of these guys as single guys, and now they're all moving into family mode and it's really nice to see. And we've also had Ryan on the show, I should acknowledge as well. He was great. Maybe we'll have him on again in the future. I think that they are all very interesting characters, but also very human to us as they come across. I think Robert does a great job presenting the show and creating storylines.

Erin Lowry:
The Bravo editors are unmatched, in my opinion, in terms of editing reality content. To a dash, Netflix is starting to do some really solid reality content, but Bravo really created the mold that everyone is just trying to match at this point.

Bobbi Rebell:
Agreed. All right. Thank you so much, Paulette, where can people catch up with you?

Paulette Perhach:
You can follow me on Twitter at @pauletperhach And I also blog about storytelling and writing and business at welcometothewriterslife.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wonderful. And you also, by the way, have a growing business supporting writers.

Paulette Perhach:
Yes. So I'm a writing coach and working on creating a program called the PMSA, the profitable MFA, where I help writers lead a profitable and satisfying writer's life.

Bobbi Rebell:
All good stuff, Erin, my friend, what are you up to these days? And where can people be in touch with you?

Erin Lowry:
You can find me most actively on Instagram @brokemillennialblog on Twitter @brokemillennial. The website is brokemillennial.com. The books, all three of them are available. Wherever books are sold and also hopefully your local library.

Bobbi Rebell:
Definitely your local library. We're all an advocate for borrowing books and supporting your library. And by the way, that doesn't mean you can't tell your library to buy the books of your favorite author and in that way financially support your favorite author. That was my PSA. All right. Thanks everyone for listening. Do not forget if you enjoy the show too. Please tell your friends and share on social and tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1.

Bobbi Rebell:
For show notes, a full transcript of this show add more, go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and just look for the podcast dropdown menu. Thank you for listening everyone. And thank you, Erin Lowry, Paulette Perhach for helping us all be Financial Grown Up.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Well, you can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my money tips for grown-ups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Authors, Financial Grownup, Investing, Money, Role Models, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanAugust 17, 2021MDLNY, Million Dollar Listing New York, Paulette Perhach, Erin Lowry, Broke Millennial, Summer Watch Party, Summer Watch Series, real estate

Summer Watch Party - My Unorthodox Life

Our summer watch party continues with the controversial new Netflix reality tv series My Unorthodox Life. Bobbi and Jessica Goodman, best-selling author of “They Wish They Were Us” and "They’ll Never Catch Us” explain why it’s getting serious backlash, and why they can’t stop watching it anyway.

A Little About The Show

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, so the premise is that there's this woman named Julia Haart and she's in her forties and she's the CEO of Elite World Group, which is a modeling conglomerate. She's launching a fashion line. She's this very glamorous, seemingly free kind of woman. She's married to an Italian man who used to be her... She used to work with at La Perla. She has four kids, kind of teenagers and young adults. And the show kind of frames this as, this is this crazy kind of New York city family, but twist... She used to be Orthodox Jewish and live in a community in upstate New York called Monsey, which is known for being very insular and having lots of different groups and communities and sects of Orthodox Judaism living there.

Jessica Goodman:
I have some thoughts on the problematic framing of this narrative. That the fact that they kind of frame it as a twist is a little bit othering in a lot of ways, but her whole thing is that she's not a part of this community anymore. And her kids are involved with the community to varying degrees. Her youngest son is... I think he's either in late middle school or early high school, and he still lives up there with his father and is very much a part of the community. And her other kids have varying levels of faith in Judaism.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm kind of amazed that they all agreed to so enthusiastically be part of this show, but they really... I almost feel like they're prepped for it and they're ready and roaring to go, which seems a little jarring. I don't know. And the clothing. I mean, I don't even know where to begin with the styling and the wardrobe on this. I mean, it's over the top. I guess that's part of why I had this Kardashian feeling and I have not been a loyal viewer of the Kardashians. I've kind of watched a few episodes over the years so I'm not really necessarily qualified to say that. But it's pretty flashy.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, totally. And I feel like that's definitely on purpose because she's framing herself as a fashion mogul and she came into the fashion world having no experience in it and knowing nothing about it and yeah. The fashion and the glam and all of that really is such a part of the show. And also obviously I've been doing deep dive stalking of everybody who's on the show and her oldest daughter Batsheva, who's 27 or something. She's a full fledged fashion influencer. Has a million followers on TikToK. She was doing that before the show launched. So clearly, this is a family where fashion is a big part of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the show is a very deliberate and polished show. There's nothing accidental in this show. It is structured. So give me your take. I mean, I find this fascinating. I didn't binge all of it yet only because I've been blocked by other true obligations, but I'll probably finish the rest right after we're done taping this because it's so fascinating. What's your general takeaway from this? Just to begin with.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, totally. I mean, you told me we were going to talk about this show and I had heard about it a little bit and I was like, oh, I'll watch an episode and see what happens. Fast forward four hours, I'd watched basically the whole thing. I couldn't take my eyes away from it. I think it's extremely compelling television. But yeah, the whole thing is super contrived. It's very clearly... They decide what the storylines are going to be. There's nothing real about it. It's very much like The Hills in that way. Fake reality. And Julia is an executive producer on the show, just like the Kardashians are executive producers on their show. So you're getting the lifestyle and the perspective that she wants you to see and I think you have to really take that into consideration when you're viewing the show.

Jessica Goodman:
I grew up and I'm still a reformed Jewish person and I think what's most interesting to me is seeing the different levels of Judaism portrayed on the show. One of the daughters is basically... I don't know if she considers herself secular, but she is 20 years old and she eats treyf, like oysters and all those kind of stuff. And her older sister is still Orthodox and has a very contrived storyline with her husband about whether or not she's going to be wearing pants, when she's also wearing an off the shoulder shirt. The whole thing is kind of fake, but I'm interested in seeing these conversations play out within the family and how they accept one another's different parts of religion.

Jessica Goodman:
I think there are some really problematic moments in the show too. There's been a real big backlash against her from women in the Orthodox community who say that she portrays them... That Julia says that Orthodox women don't have free will. And a lot of Orthodox women are coming out and saying that's not true. We do have free will and this is how, and this is why. I'm not part of that community so I can't really speculate or comment on that. It's really interesting to watch it play out and to see what she... How she has reinvented herself. No matter what you think of her or the show, this woman reinvented herself.

Jessica Goodman:
And some of her history, there seemed to be some gaps in it. I would really love a real deep dive fact check on what she's been up to since she left the community. But again, like I said, I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to. Okay. So this is my big word vomit about the show, but that's what I think.

Summer-Watch-Party-My-Unorthodox-Life-Twitter-Jessica-Goodman.png

Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Bobbi Rebell:
That's all very valid. What drew me to the show, coming from my sort of perspective, was the money thing. And one of the things that I think is interesting is there is a missing link in how she sort of went... Because it hasn't been even a decade, I think, right? How did she go from having nothing? And they do make a point in the show that they don't... That the women certainly, and also the men to a large degree, are not educated in any formal way. We do have a storyline, for example-- this is a little bit of a spoiler-- that Batsheva's husband Ben, only has a high school education and therefore his career prospects are limited because that's all they do. They study Torah and they get a high school education and I presume the women have even less of an education.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing I really admired, and again we don't get the full picture, is that she did find a way. She understood that she needed money to leave the community, which is often true in... We can only know her perspective. She felt oppressed. She felt she had no control over her life. We don't know the rest of the community but given from her perspective, that's how she felt. She knew money was going to be her answer to freedom and that was one of the things that attracted to me to the show. The ability to be able to support yourself. And she talks about that a lot in her family. That she wants her family to be able to be able to support each of themselves, even though it's very clear that right now, she's really the one supporting this entire huge operation. There's a lot of designer brands out there and I thought that was a very mixed message.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, I did kind of come to the conclusion and I'm making this up. I don't know if it's true. My gut feeling is these brands give her the clothing for free, because every single person in her family and in the show is decked out at all times and usually with their labels showing. And I'm wondering if that's because the clothing is given to her? Maybe coming from the magazine world, you have some insight into that, because I do feel like it was a mixed message. You had a lot of women empowerment messages, but then it was almost like they were so weighed down in consumerism. They go to Paris and all they're talking about is shopping, shopping, shopping and I was a little bit uncomfortable with that message.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I mean, I wish I had more insight into how she got the clothes for my magazine world, but I have no idea. I mean, there are always sponsorships and partnerships and I wouldn't be surprised if she negotiated some free clothes or rentals or something like that. But yeah, I mean the consumerism and the capitalism on display in the show is over the top, but I think that's pretty true of any glam fashion-y reality show. That's a part of the reason why people watch. I'm a huge Real Housewives fan and obviously I want to watch and see what Kyle Richards is wearing because it's always really fun. Okay, one thing that you said really struck me that I can't stop thinking about is there does seem to be a gap in how she got to where she is now. So-

Bobbi Rebell:
Had you heard of her before this?

Jessica Goodman:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Exactly! No.

Jessica Goodman:
I've been googling around and trying to find some information on her and basically her "origin story" seems to be that while she was living in what she felt to be an oppressed community, she knew she wanted to get out and she started selling life insurance to the people in her community without her husband knowing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How does that really happen? First of all.

Jessica Goodman:
I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, I love it. I support her. I think that's amazing. That's wonderful and innovative and brave, but anyway, go on.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. So that's how she said she got her nest egg to leave the community. Once she left the community, she says that she started a high heel company, which sounds great. Very cool. She was always into fashion and this is how she did it. How she wanted to become a business woman in that world. And I read an interview with her that was like, "How did you get financing?" And she said that she just kind of met people. She met someone in a doctor's office. She met someone on a flight to Hong Kong and they became her investors... And I just would love a little bit more information about how. Where Julia Haart came from and how was she was able to do this. It's obviously an incredible story and I just want more information about it.

Jessica Goodman:
Because then, once she had the shoe line, she sold it to La Perla and became the creative director there. She designed the thong outfit that Kendall Jenner wore to the Met Gala. That's a huge deal! She's very clearly good and successful. I just need some more information and I feel like... I just feel like she's not giving us the whole story on this show. Which is obvious because she's the one who produced it, like I said. But yeah, I mean this message of being able to start a business from nothing is incredibly powerful and important. I feel like with all of these... We hear about this kind of thing. This is the pull at your heartstrings story of I had nothing, now I own the world. I think what's really important about these stories when you're sharing them with young women is giving all the facts and making them really transparent so people can find ways to actually emulate that and do that for themselves. If you're watching this show looking for tips on how to start your own business, I don't think you're going to feel very equipped to do so after watching it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any favorite quotes from the show?

Jessica Goodman:
Okay, yes. I spoke about her daughter. Her second daughter, Miriam who... She's the one who goes to Stanford and she's building her own apps and she comes out as bisexual in the show and she's very cool and very free. And her mom says she's the reason for why they decided to leave the community really and she says, "People say think outside the box, but I don't even think the box exists." I just feel like she's such a cool mouthpiece for the younger generation on this show and that's just like a great little quote here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think she's awesome. So one of my favorite quotes was Julia. Julia Haart, our protagonist here saying, "I want you to never rely on anyone ever, not even me." And I didn't write down who she said that to, but I think that's really important as a-

Jessica Goodman:
Batsheva. She said it to Batsheva.

Bobbi Rebell:
To Batsheva. See, you are like a super fan of this show. Because, she does have... They're all her employees. Her children all do work for her and she's saying it's important that you establish yourself and that you are earning your money, whether you work for me or someone else and not be dependent on me as a parent. And that obviously is the sweet spot for me, writing my book about how to help our children be independent of us in a loving way and so that really hit home with me. Okay. Last little question about the show and then we're going to wrap up. Who's your favorite character and why?

Jessica Goodman:
I have two favorite character, "characters". Batsheva, just because I think she's the one who's challenging her family the most and who is challenging her mom and I found myself agreeing with her in a lot of situations. Like when Julia invites a woman from her Orthodox community to come to the city for a day of make-over and wisdom, Batsheva was right on the money when she was like, "Maybe this isn't a good idea." And the whole thing felt really exploitative to me and I feel like it did to Batsheva as well. And also Robert! Julia's best friend/employees/person who basically it seems to helm the ship at Elite. I loved him and I'm glad that they haven't really reduced him to just fun, gay sidekick character. They're giving him real storylines as well and I just think he's just a great, fun character on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I also had a tie and I agree with you. Robert was one of my favorites and even though he does seem to come out of reality TV central casting, he's also so good. I mean, he's amazing. I would be curious if he was in this role before the show, because he's just that good. He's so perfect that it's like, whoa. But look, they do say they've been working together forever and he does fit her personality as someone that would be her right-hand man, literally. So I mean-

Jessica Goodman:
Well, I did a little LinkedIn stalking and it seems like he worked with her before.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, good. And the other person that really grew on me and he seems like a minor character, it's Batsheva's husband, Ben. I just want to hug this man through the TV because he married into a certain idea of what his life was going to be. He's not her biological child that was sort of dragged out, which all of them were... Sort of voluntarily because she seems to be on good relations with her ex-husband which is also interesting. But okay. But he is just, he married this woman and then suddenly he's thrust into this whole different life and he is not set up for it. The kid is not ready for this. The first episode, they just say he's in real estate and then it comes out later the only house, the only apartment he's sold is theirs.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it was kind of not a nice dig for Julia to make. I thought that was wrong, because she did this to him. He is... I don't want to say he's a victim because he's not portrayed as a victim in any way and he seems like a fantastic person and he's really trying so hard to adjust to things that have happened to him. He's trying to find his way and be a good husband. He was told that he should have kids the earliest possible and now he's got a wife that wants to wear pants and not have a baby till she's 30. So he's really rolling with the punches and I just think he's amazing. So yay, Ben.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I could do a spin off of the two of them for sure.

Bobbi Rebell:
There might be a spinoff. I would not be surprised. Right?

Jessica Goodman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Final thoughts on the show.

Jessica Goodman:
So I still have a couple of episodes left and I'm really excited to keep going and just kind of finish it up. But I would also... If you're interested in the show and you're listening to this, I would recommend there's a great piece on Glamor. Glamour.com, about the kind of contradictions within the show and the backlash to it and explaining a lot of that stuff and I recommend that piece because it helped me think about it in a more critical way. But yeah, I... God, you know what? I'm probably going to read this woman's book too. So, yeah. I'm just interested. I'm just interested.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think it's so highly watchable and I also... For all the flaws that we talked about, I would say overall it's still a winner. I mean at a five stars, I'd still give it four and three quarter stars because while there are these inconsistencies, we don't know what was edited out. We don't know. I thought about if there's even legal things that happen behind the scenes in terms of what she can and cannot say, and it is glossy. It is definitely highly produced. But then again, it works for the show and I totally enjoyed it and I wish this whole group of people all the best success because they are risk-takers even by doing this show, even though they had control over it. And the book, I kind of hope it's not too much of a tell all. I hope that she doesn't reveal too much of her life in the name of building her persona because some things it's okay to keep private, Julia Haart. Even though we're big fans.

Jessica Goodman:
And I just want to shout out Batsheva's TikTok because I'm not even really a big fashion TikTok person and I found myself wasting a lot of time going through her very cute fashion TikToks with Ben. So highly recommend. They do-

Bobbi Rebell:
I haven't looked at it yet but I'm afraid to because it'll just... I'll never write my book.

Jessica Goodman:
No. It's a great procrastination tool.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We're going to check it out as soon as my deadline passes in a month or so. Okay. Let's just talk quickly about They'll Never Catch Us.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, yeah. So this is my new book, They'll never catch us. It is out July 27th. The date this episode drops, which is so exciting. And it is a young adult thriller about two sisters who are hyper competitive on a cross-country team in a small town in the Catskills, that is very dark and ominous and has a history of cold cases where young female runners go missing and they've never found the killer. And so the sister, the Steckler sisters, they are competing for the number one spot on their cross country team because their family can only afford to send one of them to college and the other one needs to get a scholarship. Their whole lives are wrapped up in cross country and everything changes when a new girl comes to town threatens to be better than both of them and take away the scholarship that one of them might get.

Jessica Goodman:
And when the new girl disappears, everyone starts to think that the Steckler sisters has something to do with her disappearance and they become the main suspects in the case. So it's a fun murder mystery that is about strength and desire and the power of teenage girls, which is what I love to write about. That's my sweet spot. And I think all my books also have a lot of themes about class distinctions, specifically within small communities and how power and money can kind of affect the way that young people think about the world and what their priorities are. So I'm excited. I'm excited for it to come out.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's coming out today. We can't wait to read it.

Follow Jessica!

Instagram - @jessicagoodman
Twitter - @jessgood
Jessica’s website - https://www.goodmanjessica.com/
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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Jessica Goodman:
I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome my friends, to a new episode of our 2021 Financial Grownups Summer Watch Party series. During COVID, well I probably should have read more, but I actually did a lot of streaming, show watching and I became a little bit obsessed with the fact that there are a lot of shows out there that talk about money. Many of them totally undiscovered, and they have pretty good money lessons. So we're going to have a summer watch party highlighting some of my personal favorites and some new buzzworthy shows and of course the money tips that we learned from them. I am so excited to have my friend Jessica Goodman here with me for this episode. She is the author of two... Not one, but two best-selling books. They Wish They Were Us and the newly released... Actually it's coming out the day this episode drops, I believe. They'll Never Catch Us. Her books? So successful that she is no longer employed by Cosmos magazine as an editor where she spent many, many years. Hi Jessica.

Jessica Goodman:
Hi. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, so I also left out... Give us an update on the books because in addition to They'll Never Catch Us, which I'm holding up here even though no one can see it. But I'll hold it up just so you get the feeling of me holding it up. Your first book had all kinds of Hollywood stuff happening. Give us an update on that.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, absolutely. So my first book, They Wish They Were Us is a prep school murder mystery set in an exclusive school in Long Island. And yeah, it was optioned for TV, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey and it's with HBO Max in development right now. So we're hoping it gets made and seeing what's up, but it's been really fun to kind of see that process move along.

Bobbi Rebell:
So glam. Perfect for the show we're going to be talking about. We're going to get to They'll Never Catch Us after we talk about this week's must watch show. This is a new one. So this technically was not watched while I was under quarantine, but it was coming out and getting so much buzz that I decided to throw it in the mix. It is called My Unorthodox Life. I feel like this is almost the new Kardashian show. In that you've got all of these characters, they're this big family and they're sort of... I don't know if this is Kardashian-like or not, but they're super glam and they're sort of a fish out of water story. I don't know. Would you characterize it like that? What do you see? Tell us more about the premise.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, so the premise is that there's this woman named Julia Haart and she's in her forties and she's the CEO of Elite World Group, which is a modeling conglomerate. She's launching a fashion line. She's this very glamorous, seemingly free kind of woman. She's married to an Italian man who used to be her... She used to work with at La Perla. She has four kids, kind of teenagers and young adults. And the show kind of frames this as, this is this crazy kind of New York city family, but twist... She used to be Orthodox Jewish and live in a community in upstate New York called Monsey, which is known for being very insular and having lots of different groups and communities and sects of Orthodox Judaism living there.

Jessica Goodman:
I have some thoughts on the problematic framing of this narrative. That the fact that they kind of frame it as a twist is a little bit othering in a lot of ways, but her whole thing is that she's not a part of this community anymore. And her kids are involved with the community to varying degrees. Her youngest son is... I think he's either in late middle school or early high school, and he still lives up there with his father and is very much a part of the community. And her other kids have varying levels of faith in Judaism.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm kind of amazed that they all agreed to so enthusiastically be part of this show, but they really... I almost feel like they're prepped for it and they're ready and roaring to go, which seems a little jarring. I don't know. And the clothing. I mean, I don't even know where to begin with the styling and the wardrobe on this. I mean, it's over the top. I guess that's part of why I had this Kardashian feeling and I have not been a loyal viewer of the Kardashians. I've kind of watched a few episodes over the years so I'm not really necessarily qualified to say that. But it's pretty flashy.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, totally. And I feel like that's definitely on purpose because she's framing herself as a fashion mogul and she came into the fashion world having no experience in it and knowing nothing about it and yeah. The fashion and the glam and all of that really is such a part of the show. And also obviously I've been doing deep dive stalking of everybody who's on the show and her oldest daughter Batsheva, who's 27 or something. She's a full fledged fashion influencer. Has a million followers on TikToK. She was doing that before the show launched. So clearly, this is a family where fashion is a big part of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the show is a very deliberate and polished show. There's nothing accidental in this show. It is structured. So give me your take. I mean, I find this fascinating. I didn't binge all of it yet only because I've been blocked by other true obligations, but I'll probably finish the rest right after we're done taping this because it's so fascinating. What's your general takeaway from this? Just to begin with.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, totally. I mean, you told me we were going to talk about this show and I had heard about it a little bit and I was like, oh, I'll watch an episode and see what happens. Fast forward four hours, I'd watched basically the whole thing. I couldn't take my eyes away from it. I think it's extremely compelling television. But yeah, the whole thing is super contrived. It's very clearly... They decide what the storylines are going to be. There's nothing real about it. It's very much like The Hills in that way. Fake reality. And Julia is an executive producer on the show, just like the Kardashians are executive producers on their show. So you're getting the lifestyle and the perspective that she wants you to see and I think you have to really take that into consideration when you're viewing the show.

Jessica Goodman:
I grew up and I'm still a reformed Jewish person and I think what's most interesting to me is seeing the different levels of Judaism portrayed on the show. One of the daughters is basically... I don't know if she considers herself secular, but she is 20 years old and she eats treyf, like oysters and all those kind of stuff. And her older sister is still Orthodox and has a very contrived storyline with her husband about whether or not she's going to be wearing pants, when she's also wearing an off the shoulder shirt. The whole thing is kind of fake, but I'm interested in seeing these conversations play out within the family and how they accept one another's different parts of religion.

Jessica Goodman:
I think there are some really problematic moments in the show too. There's been a real big backlash against her from women in the Orthodox community who say that she portrays them... That Julia says that Orthodox women don't have free will. And a lot of Orthodox women are coming out and saying that's not true. We do have free will and this is how, and this is why. I'm not part of that community so I can't really speculate or comment on that. It's really interesting to watch it play out and to see what she... How she has reinvented herself. No matter what you think of her or the show, this woman reinvented herself.

Jessica Goodman:
And some of her history, there seemed to be some gaps in it. I would really love a real deep dive fact check on what she's been up to since she left the community. But again, like I said, I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to. Okay. So this is my big word vomit about the show, but that's what I think.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's all very valid. What drew me to the show, coming from my sort of perspective, was the money thing. And one of the things that I think is interesting is there is a missing link in how she sort of went... Because it hasn't been even a decade, I think, right? How did she go from having nothing? And they do make a point in the show that they don't... That the women certainly, and also the men to a large degree, are not educated in any formal way. We do have a storyline, for example-- this is a little bit of a spoiler-- that Batsheva's husband Ben, only has a high school education and therefore his career prospects are limited because that's all they do. They study Torah and they get a high school education and I presume the women have even less of an education.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing I really admired, and again we don't get the full picture, is that she did find a way. She understood that she needed money to leave the community, which is often true in... We can only know her perspective. She felt oppressed. She felt she had no control over her life. We don't know the rest of the community but given from her perspective, that's how she felt. She knew money was going to be her answer to freedom and that was one of the things that attracted to me to the show. The ability to be able to support yourself. And she talks about that a lot in her family. That she wants her family to be able to be able to support each of themselves, even though it's very clear that right now, she's really the one supporting this entire huge operation. There's a lot of designer brands out there and I thought that was a very mixed message.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, I did kind of come to the conclusion and I'm making this up. I don't know if it's true. My gut feeling is these brands give her the clothing for free, because every single person in her family and in the show is decked out at all times and usually with their labels showing. And I'm wondering if that's because the clothing is given to her? Maybe coming from the magazine world, you have some insight into that, because I do feel like it was a mixed message. You had a lot of women empowerment messages, but then it was almost like they were so weighed down in consumerism. They go to Paris and all they're talking about is shopping, shopping, shopping and I was a little bit uncomfortable with that message.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I mean, I wish I had more insight into how she got the clothes for my magazine world, but I have no idea. I mean, there are always sponsorships and partnerships and I wouldn't be surprised if she negotiated some free clothes or rentals or something like that. But yeah, I mean the consumerism and the capitalism on display in the show is over the top, but I think that's pretty true of any glam fashion-y reality show. That's a part of the reason why people watch. I'm a huge Real Housewives fan and obviously I want to watch and see what Kyle Richards is wearing because it's always really fun. Okay, one thing that you said really struck me that I can't stop thinking about is there does seem to be a gap in how she got to where she is now. So-

Bobbi Rebell:
Had you heard of her before this?

Jessica Goodman:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Exactly! No.

Jessica Goodman:
I've been googling around and trying to find some information on her and basically her "origin story" seems to be that while she was living in what she felt to be an oppressed community, she knew she wanted to get out and she started selling life insurance to the people in her community without her husband knowing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How does that really happen? First of all.

Jessica Goodman:
I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, I love it. I support her. I think that's amazing. That's wonderful and innovative and brave, but anyway, go on.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. So that's how she said she got her nest egg to leave the community. Once she left the community, she says that she started a high heel company, which sounds great. Very cool. She was always into fashion and this is how she did it. How she wanted to become a business woman in that world. And I read an interview with her that was like, "How did you get financing?" And she said that she just kind of met people. She met someone in a doctor's office. She met someone on a flight to Hong Kong and they became her investors... And I just would love a little bit more information about how. Where Julia Haart came from and how was she was able to do this. It's obviously an incredible story and I just want more information about it.

Jessica Goodman:
Because then, once she had the shoe line, she sold it to La Perla and became the creative director there. She designed the thong outfit that Kendall Jenner wore to the Met Gala. That's a huge deal! She's very clearly good and successful. I just need some more information and I feel like... I just feel like she's not giving us the whole story on this show. Which is obvious because she's the one who produced it, like I said. But yeah, I mean this message of being able to start a business from nothing is incredibly powerful and important. I feel like with all of these... We hear about this kind of thing. This is the pull at your heartstrings story of I had nothing, now I own the world. I think what's really important about these stories when you're sharing them with young women is giving all the facts and making them really transparent so people can find ways to actually emulate that and do that for themselves. If you're watching this show looking for tips on how to start your own business, I don't think you're going to feel very equipped to do so after watching it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any favorite quotes from the show?

Jessica Goodman:
Okay, yes. I spoke about her daughter. Her second daughter, Miriam who... She's the one who goes to Stanford and she's building her own apps and she comes out as bisexual in the show and she's very cool and very free. And her mom says she's the reason for why they decided to leave the community really and she says, "People say think outside the box, but I don't even think the box exists." I just feel like she's such a cool mouthpiece for the younger generation on this show and that's just like a great little quote here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think she's awesome. So one of my favorite quotes was Julia. Julia Haart, our protagonist here saying, "I want you to never rely on anyone ever, not even me." And I didn't write down who she said that to, but I think that's really important as a-

Jessica Goodman:
Batsheva. She said it to Batsheva.

Bobbi Rebell:
To Batsheva. See, you are like a super fan of this show. Because, she does have... They're all her employees. Her children all do work for her and she's saying it's important that you establish yourself and that you are earning your money, whether you work for me or someone else and not be dependent on me as a parent. And that obviously is the sweet spot for me, writing my book about how to help our children be independent of us in a loving way and so that really hit home with me. Okay. Last little question about the show and then we're going to wrap up. Who's your favorite character and why?

Jessica Goodman:
I have two favorite character, "characters". Batsheva, just because I think she's the one who's challenging her family the most and who is challenging her mom and I found myself agreeing with her in a lot of situations. Like when Julia invites a woman from her Orthodox community to come to the city for a day of make-over and wisdom, Batsheva was right on the money when she was like, "Maybe this isn't a good idea." And the whole thing felt really exploitative to me and I feel like it did to Batsheva as well. And also Robert! Julia's best friend/employees/person who basically it seems to helm the ship at Elite. I loved him and I'm glad that they haven't really reduced him to just fun, gay sidekick character. They're giving him real storylines as well and I just think he's just a great, fun character on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I also had a tie and I agree with you. Robert was one of my favorites and even though he does seem to come out of reality TV central casting, he's also so good. I mean, he's amazing. I would be curious if he was in this role before the show, because he's just that good. He's so perfect that it's like, whoa. But look, they do say they've been working together forever and he does fit her personality as someone that would be her right-hand man, literally. So I mean-

Jessica Goodman:
Well, I did a little LinkedIn stalking and it seems like he worked with her before.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, good. And the other person that really grew on me and he seems like a minor character, it's Batsheva's husband, Ben. I just want to hug this man through the TV because he married into a certain idea of what his life was going to be. He's not her biological child that was sort of dragged out, which all of them were... Sort of voluntarily because she seems to be on good relations with her ex-husband which is also interesting. But okay. But he is just, he married this woman and then suddenly he's thrust into this whole different life and he is not set up for it. The kid is not ready for this. The first episode, they just say he's in real estate and then it comes out later the only house, the only apartment he's sold is theirs.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it was kind of not a nice dig for Julia to make. I thought that was wrong, because she did this to him. He is... I don't want to say he's a victim because he's not portrayed as a victim in any way and he seems like a fantastic person and he's really trying so hard to adjust to things that have happened to him. He's trying to find his way and be a good husband. He was told that he should have kids the earliest possible and now he's got a wife that wants to wear pants and not have a baby till she's 30. So he's really rolling with the punches and I just think he's amazing. So yay, Ben.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I could do a spin off of the two of them for sure.

Bobbi Rebell:
There might be a spinoff. I would not be surprised. Right?

Jessica Goodman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Final thoughts on the show.

Jessica Goodman:
So I still have a couple of episodes left and I'm really excited to keep going and just kind of finish it up. But I would also... If you're interested in the show and you're listening to this, I would recommend there's a great piece on Glamor. Glamour.com, about the kind of contradictions within the show and the backlash to it and explaining a lot of that stuff and I recommend that piece because it helped me think about it in a more critical way. But yeah, I... God, you know what? I'm probably going to read this woman's book too. So, yeah. I'm just interested. I'm just interested.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think it's so highly watchable and I also... For all the flaws that we talked about, I would say overall it's still a winner. I mean at a five stars, I'd still give it four and three quarter stars because while there are these inconsistencies, we don't know what was edited out. We don't know. I thought about if there's even legal things that happen behind the scenes in terms of what she can and cannot say, and it is glossy. It is definitely highly produced. But then again, it works for the show and I totally enjoyed it and I wish this whole group of people all the best success because they are risk-takers even by doing this show, even though they had control over it. And the book, I kind of hope it's not too much of a tell all. I hope that she doesn't reveal too much of her life in the name of building her persona because some things it's okay to keep private, Julia Haart. Even though we're big fans.

Jessica Goodman:
And I just want to shout out Batsheva's TikTok because I'm not even really a big fashion TikTok person and I found myself wasting a lot of time going through her very cute fashion TikToks with Ben. So highly recommend. They do-

Bobbi Rebell:
I haven't looked at it yet but I'm afraid to because it'll just... I'll never write my book.

Jessica Goodman:
No. It's a great procrastination tool.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We're going to check it out as soon as my deadline passes in a month or so. Okay. Let's just talk quickly about They'll Never Catch Us.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, yeah. So this is my new book, They'll never catch us. It is out July 27th. The date this episode drops, which is so exciting. And it is a young adult thriller about two sisters who are hyper competitive on a cross-country team in a small town in the Catskills, that is very dark and ominous and has a history of cold cases where young female runners go missing and they've never found the killer. And so the sister, the Steckler sisters, they are competing for the number one spot on their cross country team because their family can only afford to send one of them to college and the other one needs to get a scholarship. Their whole lives are wrapped up in cross country and everything changes when a new girl comes to town threatens to be better than both of them and take away the scholarship that one of them might get.

Jessica Goodman:
And when the new girl disappears, everyone starts to think that the Steckler sisters has something to do with her disappearance and they become the main suspects in the case. So it's a fun murder mystery that is about strength and desire and the power of teenage girls, which is what I love to write about. That's my sweet spot. And I think all my books also have a lot of themes about class distinctions, specifically within small communities and how power and money can kind of affect the way that young people think about the world and what their priorities are. So I'm excited. I'm excited for it to come out.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's coming out today. We can't wait to read it... Another distraction. I love you Batsheva, but I'm going to read this before I check out your TikTok because I know that TikTok's going to be dangerous for me. Always so good to have you on. Where can people follow you on all the socials?

Jessica Goodman:
You can follow me on Instagram, @jessicagoodman and Twitter, @jessgood. And my website is goodmanjessica.com. So find me in any one of those places and thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for being on. Everyone, please make sure you are following the podcast on whatever platform you've listened to. That's new words because apparently subscriptions have a whole new meaning and this podcast is free for you. So come back next week, we're going to continue our Summer Watch series with another money show next week. See you then. Bye guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by [Steve Stewart 00:22:33]. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by [Ashley Wall 00:22:39]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media. @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Authors, Financial Grownup, MoneyBobbi Rebell KaufmanJuly 27, 2021Jessica Goodman, My Unorthodox Life, Summer Watch Party, Money Tips

5 Money Tips to achieve financial wellness and improve your mental health with Dr. Elizabeth Dunn of Happy Money

Do you track your “Happy Spends” against your “Sad Spends”? Dr. Elizabeth Dunn of Happy Money will have you doing that and more with her money mental wellness tips. Don’t you feel better already?

Dr-Elizabeth-Dunn-Main-Instagram-Author-Happy-Money.png

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn’s 5 Money Tips to achieve financial wellness

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I spend my day-to-day work life thinking about what makes people happy and how we can make people happier. In particular, I've been really interested in how we can harness money as a tool to increase our happiness. I think the sort of overarching idea that I've been arguing throughout my career is that how much money we have actually matters less than what it is we do with it. So making more careful choices around not just how we invest our money, how we save our money-- which we think so much about-- but also how we spend our money. Can we spend it in ways that genuinely make us happier, rather than just sort of squandering it on the things that daily life tempts us with? All the things we see in sort of advertisements, things we see other people buying. Instead, can we chart our own path and find the kinds of purchases that really fill us with happiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is such a great concept and one that I should mention you do cover in your book, Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending. All right, let's get to your five tips for financial wellness. Now some of these might sound familiar, but the way that you present them is going to really resonate I think, with our audience, because you also have the data to back them up and I think that's going to really motivate a lot of us to put these into action in our lives. Okay. The first one is normalize talking about money, which we hear a lot, but you've got a different spin on it.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. This really comes from our research at Happy Money where we've seen that people in debt especially really want a chance to hear from other people that have been through that journey too. They want to know how did you get through this? How did you pay off your debt? What challenges did you overcome? We're used to talking about money maybe on the brighter side of investments and savings and so forth, but I think it's really important that we start sharing our financial lows along with our financial highs just to normalize talking about money and just taking away some of the stigma that surrounds debt. We really encourage people to talk about and think about what it is that a rich life means to them. So I would argue that rich really is not about what's in your bank account. It's about what makes you happy and fulfilled in meaningful and sustainable ways. One thing we see is that over and above how much income people earn, it really matters how they think about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Your second money tip is to treat money as a tool, but again, you are reframing the conversation here.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. So I think very often, people treat money as an end in itself. So much of financial planning, for example, surrounds how to get more money. So if we shift the conversation to be about how to get more happiness, then we start thinking of money not as an end in itself, but as a tool, kind of pathway for getting to happiness. We do know that people who have more money tend to be happier than those who have less, but this is mainly because those people with more money tend to be more able to meet their expenses and stay out of debt. In reality, the amount of money that you have really matters less than what you do with it and the key here is figuring out how to use money as a tool to boost your mental health and happiness.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This holds true whether you have a little money or a lot of money. In some of our recent data, we're seeing just how consistently these ideas hold up across the whole spectrum of income. For example, we know from research that people tend to get more satisfaction from buying time. For example, buying some help with childcare or a meal delivery service can really pay dividends in terms of life satisfaction. And from our latest data from Happy Money, we're actually seeing that this relationship holds true again, even for people who are living paycheck to paycheck, kind of struggling to make ends meet.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
It's quite a consistent principal and even more consistent, we see that people who give, who use their money to benefit others, tend to experience greater happiness. This is what we see, remarkably, even for people below the poverty line. This relationship holds true all the way across the income spectrum. At the end of the day, that's really why we created Happy Money, which is to help people use their money in ways that support their wellbeing and happiness and also allow them to build healthier and more mindful habits more broadly around their finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because some of the examples you just gave like ordering in dinner are things that we generally think of as splurges and things that we can cut out when we're trying to get control of our budgets, but we shouldn't maybe make those assumptions.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's exactly right. In our research, we see that many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress, a lot of time stress... Buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has this changed during the pandemic? Do you have any data on that? I'm curious.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. We're just beginning to fully explore this question of how these principles might've been altered through the pandemic. But I think a particularly interesting one to focus on at this stage of the pandemic is giving, because we know that many people did not give as much money as they usually would to charity during the pandemic. Many charities are really hurting right now, and so as we kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel and maybe experience some gratitude over having made it this far and still being alive, still kind of being okay. I think this is a wonderful time to pay it forward.

Elizabeth-Dunn-Twitter-Quote-#3-Author-Happy-Money.png

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's move on to the third one. I think this is my favorite one. Track your happy spends versus sad spends.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. So I always tell people to track what you spend and how it makes you feel. So people are used to tracking their spending to try to restrain their spending or know how much they've got, but I say add on how it makes you feel so you can actually decide what's worth it to you and what's not. So really pay attention to how these purchases affect your mood and then you can start to identify what I call happy spends, these spends that really make you happy. And sad spends, maybe things that used to make you happy but aren't really paying off in terms of your happiness anymore.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This is going to help you ask yourself what actually brings you real joy and what do you regret by the next day? I would argue that when you shift your spending toward what makes you truly happy... That might be paying off debt, or savoring a treat, helping a friend donating to charity. That can enable you to make better, happier decisions around your own wellbeing and it's also a great opportunity to start thinking about investing in your future self. What are the purchases that make you happy when you first acquire them, but also still continue to provide happiness dividends going forward. I think that's a really fascinating issue. Helping people gain better self insight into what makes them happy starts with just paying attention in the moment to what's providing you joy and what's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
I was so glad to see this next one on the list because it really resonates with so many of us coming out of this pandemic. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis for me on celebrate along the way, because we really don't know what's going to happen.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. I mean, this experience of the past year has really made me appreciate the value of just celebrating what's good in the moment. So, I recommend when people are tackling a big financial challenge or big life challenge, start with small manageable changes. Achievable changes. And then do take the time to celebrate those little milestones along the way. So it isn't necessarily about just achieving your final goal and that's the only time you should celebrate. Celebrate each piece of it. So break your big goals into more bite sized pieces and these small steps are going to be a lot easier to form into sticky sorts of habits. Just to give some examples, you could start with little changes like saving $10 a week, or maybe giving $15 to a charitable organization that needs your support, or try putting an extra $50 a month toward your credit card debt.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
These are potentially more achievable changes that over time can actually have a really big impact on your overall happiness. So what we've seen in our data at Happy Money is that even building up a little bit of savings can go a long way in terms of people's life satisfaction. So we see that people with just $400 in emergency savings reported over 13% higher levels of life satisfaction compared to people who didn't have that cushion.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're removing that anxiety, right?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I think that's a huge part of it. So we see that when people have savings, it kind of acts as this cushion that protects them from some of the shocks of unexpected events in daily life and can also just reassure people that they're going to be a little bit insulated. I think that's one of the big lessons for me from the pandemic because we just don't know what the future holds. Save up some money now so you're ready for whatever surprises the future might have in store.

Elizabeth-Dunn-Twitter-Quote-#1-Author-Happy-Money.png

Bobbi Rebell:
And this last one, I think, is just so essential and I hope that people take the time and really take it seriously. And that is to take the time to deal with your feelings around money... Because we often get so caught up in life's day-to-day, we never stop and kind of examine how we're approaching money.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. And I think this is probably the most important tip. That we focus so much on the sort of objective financial challenges surrounding money itself but we have to also deal with the feelings that are hovering around those challenges. So thinking about this, we decided last year to introduce a new money, mindfulness and stress reduction program that we call Peace. Like peace and love. This free course is really neat because it incorporates cognitive behavioral therapy and psychology to help people understand and reduce the impact that financial stress is having on their lives. The fact that it's completely free was super important to me. This is something we are giving away to just help people deal with the financial stress that the past year has created.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
What we did was really to try to think about how could busy people fit this into their lives? As somebody who's got a full-time job and a kid I thought, 'Could I make this work even for me?' Each exercise is really broken down into these small digestible bites and everything is personalized to the individual and really designed to build skills for addressing stress levels. And going beyond just combating stress, we also wanted to think about the positive sides. So we've got a whole week that's devoted to just helping people promote more positive thoughts and actions. To learn how to amplify their positive emotions and get more joy out of the tiny pleasures of daily life like sitting in the sunshine or eating a piece of chocolate.

Follow Dr. Elizabeth Dunn!

Instagram - @happymoney
Twitter - @DunnHappyLab
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/happy-money/
Website - https://happymoney.com/company/
Happy Money’s FREE course - Peace - https://peace.happymoney.com/peace

Follow Bobbi!

Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grown-up for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
In our research, we see that people, many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress-- a lot of time stress-- buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being grown up is hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends! I hope everyone is having fun this summer and feeling healthy and most of all, feeling happier these days. A lot of things affect our moods. I know for me, I always feel better when the weather is good and there is scientific evidence that for some people, including me, sunshine and warmth really does have an impact on our moods. There's also evidence that what's going on with our money can have a measurable impact, a scientifically measurable impact on our mood and yes, our happiness. So, okay. For most of us, it doesn't take a scientific survey or research or whatever to tell us that if we're worried about money, we're not happy. But stick with me friends, because if we understand the science, we can then take it to the next level and implement real strategies to boost our financial wellness.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for example, a lot of the time, things like meal delivery plans are framed as something that maybe we should feel a little guilty about. We see it as a splurge, a luxury, and certainly discretionary when we're having budgeting discussions. But here's the thing. Apparently, things that buy us time are scientifically proven to be good for our mental health and could actually be one of the best uses of our money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I found the perfect guest to tell us more about all of that and also to teach us how we can incorporate good money habits that lead to happiness into our lives. Dr. Elizabeth Dunn is a professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of British Columbia and the Chief Science Officer at Happy Money, a Los Angeles based FinTech company. Now Dunn is also the author of Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending which she co authored with Michael Norton of Harvard Business School. Dr. Dunn conducts experimental research on happiness, exploring how people can optimize their use of time, money and technology to promote well-being. Her TED 2019 Talk on generosity and happiness, has been viewed over 3 million times and was selected by TED as one of the top 10 Talks of that year 2019. She is amazing and we are in for a treat. Here is Dr. Elizabeth Dunn. Dr. Elizabeth Dunn, you are a financial grownup. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, okay. Before we get to... You're going to be talking about five tips for financial wellness and improving our mental health, especially as it relates to money. I have to ask you, you call yourself a happiness researcher. Tell us about that.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Well, I spend my day-to-day work life thinking about what makes people happy and how we can make people happier. In particular, I've been really interested in how we can harness money as a tool to increase our happiness. I think the sort of overarching idea that I've been arguing throughout my career is that how much money we have actually matters less than what it is we do with it. So making more careful choices around not just how we invest our money, how we save our money-- which we think so much about-- but also how we spend our money. Can we spend it in ways that genuinely make us happier, rather than just sort of squandering it on the things that daily life tempts us with? All the things we see in sort of advertisements, things we see other people buying. Instead, can we chart our own path and find the kinds of purchases that really fill us with happiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is such a great concept and one that I should mention you do cover in your book, Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending. All right, let's get to your five tips for financial wellness. Now some of these might sound familiar, but the way that you present them is going to really resonate I think, with our audience, because you also have the data to back them up and I think that's going to really motivate a lot of us to put these into action in our lives. Okay. The first one is normalize talking about money, which we hear a lot, but you've got a different spin on it.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. This really comes from our research at Happy Money where we've seen that people in debt especially really want a chance to hear from other people that have been through that journey too. They want to know how did you get through this? How did you pay off your debt? What challenges did you overcome? We're used to talking about money maybe on the brighter side of investments and savings and so forth, but I think it's really important that we start sharing our financial lows along with our financial highs just to normalize talking about money and just taking away some of the stigma that surrounds debt. We really encourage people to talk about and think about what it is that a rich life means to them. So I would argue that rich really is not about what's in your bank account. It's about what makes you happy and fulfilled in meaningful and sustainable ways. One thing we see is that over and above how much income people earn, it really matters how they think about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Your second money tip is to treat money as a tool, but again, you are reframing the conversation here.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. So I think very often, people treat money as an end in itself. So much of financial planning, for example, surrounds how to get more money. So if we shift the conversation to be about how to get more happiness, then we start thinking of money not as an end in itself, but as a tool, kind of pathway for getting to happiness. We do know that people who have more money tend to be happier than those who have less, but this is mainly because those people with more money tend to be more able to meet their expenses and stay out of debt. In reality, the amount of money that you have really matters less than what you do with it and the key here is figuring out how to use money as a tool to boost your mental health and happiness.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This holds true whether you have a little money or a lot of money. In some of our recent data, we're seeing just how consistently these ideas hold up across the whole spectrum of income. For example, we know from research that people tend to get more satisfaction from buying time. For example, buying some help with childcare or a meal delivery service can really pay dividends in terms of life satisfaction. And from our latest data from Happy Money, we're actually seeing that this relationship holds true again, even for people who are living paycheck to paycheck, kind of struggling to make ends meet.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
It's quite a consistent principal and even more consistent, we see that people who give, who use their money to benefit others, tend to experience greater happiness. This is what we see, remarkably, even for people below the poverty line. This relationship holds true all the way across the income spectrum. At the end of the day, that's really why we created Happy Money, which is to help people use their money in ways that support their wellbeing and happiness and also allow them to build healthier and more mindful habits more broadly around their finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because some of the examples you just gave like ordering in dinner are things that we generally think of as splurges and things that we can cut out when we're trying to get control of our budgets, but we shouldn't maybe make those assumptions.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's exactly right. In our research, we see that many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress, a lot of time stress... Buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has this changed during the pandemic? Do you have any data on that? I'm curious.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. We're just beginning to fully explore this question of how these principles might've been altered through the pandemic. But I think a particularly interesting one to focus on at this stage of the pandemic is giving, because we know that many people did not give as much money as they usually would to charity during the pandemic. Many charities are really hurting right now, and so as we kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel and maybe experience some gratitude over having made it this far and still being alive, still kind of being okay. I think this is a wonderful time to pay it forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's move on to the third one. I think this is my favorite one. Track your happy spends versus sad spends.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. So I always tell people to track what you spend and how it makes you feel. So people are used to tracking their spending to try to restrain their spending or know how much they've got, but I say add on how it makes you feel so you can actually decide what's worth it to you and what's not. So really pay attention to how these purchases affect your mood and then you can start to identify what I call happy spends, these spends that really make you happy. And sad spends, maybe things that used to make you happy but aren't really paying off in terms of your happiness anymore.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This is going to help you ask yourself what actually brings you real joy and what do you regret by the next day? I would argue that when you shift your spending toward what makes you truly happy... That might be paying off debt, or savoring a treat, helping a friend donating to charity. That can enable you to make better, happier decisions around your own wellbeing and it's also a great opportunity to start thinking about investing in your future self. What are the purchases that make you happy when you first acquire them, but also still continue to provide happiness dividends going forward. I think that's a really fascinating issue. Helping people gain better self insight into what makes them happy starts with just paying attention in the moment to what's providing you joy and what's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
I was so glad to see this next one on the list because it really resonates with so many of us coming out of this pandemic. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis for me on celebrate along the way, because we really don't know what's going to happen.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. I mean, this experience of the past year has really made me appreciate the value of just celebrating what's good in the moment. So, I recommend when people are tackling a big financial challenge or big life challenge, start with small manageable changes. Achievable changes. And then do take the time to celebrate those little milestones along the way. So it isn't necessarily about just achieving your final goal and that's the only time you should celebrate. Celebrate each piece of it. So break your big goals into more bite sized pieces and these small steps are going to be a lot easier to form into sticky sorts of habits. Just to give some examples, you could start with little changes like saving $10 a week, or maybe giving $15 to a charitable organization that needs your support, or try putting an extra $50 a month toward your credit card debt.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
These are potentially more achievable changes that over time can actually have a really big impact on your overall happiness. So what we've seen in our data at Happy Money is that even building up a little bit of savings can go a long way in terms of people's life satisfaction. So we see that people with just $400 in emergency savings reported over 13% higher levels of life satisfaction compared to people who didn't have that cushion.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're removing that anxiety, right?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I think that's a huge part of it. So we see that when people have savings, it kind of acts as this cushion that protects them from some of the shocks of unexpected events in daily life and can also just reassure people that they're going to be a little bit insulated. I think that's one of the big lessons for me from the pandemic because we just don't know what the future holds. Save up some money now so you're ready for whatever surprises the future might have in store.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this last one, I think, is just so essential and I hope that people take the time and really take it seriously. And that is to take the time to deal with your feelings around money... Because we often get so caught up in life's day-to-day, we never stop and kind of examine how we're approaching money.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. And I think this is probably the most important tip. That we focus so much on the sort of objective financial challenges surrounding money itself but we have to also deal with the feelings that are hovering around those challenges. So thinking about this, we decided last year to introduce a new money, mindfulness and stress reduction program that we call Peace. Like peace and love. This free course is really neat because it incorporates cognitive behavioral therapy and psychology to help people understand and reduce the impact that financial stress is having on their lives. The fact that it's completely free was super important to me. This is something we are giving away to just help people deal with the financial stress that the past year has created.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
What we did was really to try to think about how could busy people fit this into their lives? As somebody who's got a full-time job and a kid I thought, 'Could I make this work even for me?' Each exercise is really broken down into these small digestible bites and everything is personalized to the individual and really designed to build skills for addressing stress levels. And going beyond just combating stress, we also wanted to think about the positive sides. So we've got a whole week that's devoted to just helping people promote more positive thoughts and actions. To learn how to amplify their positive emotions and get more joy out of the tiny pleasures of daily life like sitting in the sunshine or eating a piece of chocolate.

Bobbi Rebell:
We so needed all of these reminders. Where can people follow up with you and then follow you on all the socials?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Well, my number one tip would be to go over to happymoney.com\peace. There they can find more about our Peace program, this free six week program to help people decrease their stress levels. They can follow me on Twitter. I'm @DunnHappyLab. I would also just suggest checking out Happy Money more broadly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you feeling happier? Let's do a quick review of some of the concepts here. Okay. First of all, we want to make sure that we actually talk about money with other people. Not to other people by the way, with other people. And it doesn't mean revealing your personal data. It's more like finding comfort in the discussions and taking the stress out of mutual money decisions. So for example, if you make plans with friends to go out, think carefully not just about making sure the place that you go fits your budget, but also fits their budget. So one way to do this is to say that you're going to take control and you'll plan the event or the dining out or whatever you're doing, but give them a few choices. Make sure they're at kind of different price points and point that out to them and maybe in a casual way, be like, "We could splurge and do this, or we could be more budget friendly and do this," or somewhere in between. And you can gauge the reaction from that. It takes away the awkwardness.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the fact that Dr. Dunn talks about treating money as a tool, but not as an end in and of itself. So let's focus on how to get more happiness and how money can get us there. Letting go of the guilt when you buy time to boost happiness. So yeah, hire that babysitter and go on date night. I didn't do it a lot, but maybe I should have. All right track how you spend and how it makes you feel. This is going to help you identify happy spends versus sad spends. I love the way she puts that. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis on celebrating the milestones along the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
And finally, take the time to deal with your feelings about money. By the way, if you're looking for more info about happiness, definitely check out my recent episode with Meaghan Murphy, where we talk about specific ways to be happier and make sure to also read Meaghan's book, Your Fully Charged Life, which is a great summer beach read. You'll love the cover by the way, it's so... The cover itself makes you happy.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you enjoy this episode, I would love your help. Make sure you are following it on the platform of your choice and make sure you share it with friends. One easy way to do that is just take a screenshot and post it on your social media and of course, please tag me so I can thank you and I can also share it as well. Growing the show is really hard and your help means the world to me. On Instagram, by the way, I'm @bobbirebell1. B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L and then the number one. I highly recommend Dr. Dunn's free Peace course. So go to our show notes at bobbirebell.com under podcast for details. I also provide summaries and full transcripts of the show in the show notes. So please definitely use that resource. It's there for you. It's also free. And of course, we are so thankful and so happy that Dr. Elizabeth Dunn was able to join us and help us all be happy financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by [Steve Stewart 00:18:04]. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by [Ashley Wall 00:18:09]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts . Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Authors, Advice, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Role Models, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJuly 13, 2021Money, Happy Money, Happiness Researcher, Author, Authors, Elizabeth Dunn, Money Tips, Happy Spends

Money Tips to Avoid Getting Dumped by Your Insurance Company and other Home Owner Tips with Anne-Lyse Wealth

Anne-Lyse, author of Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids, shares her money tips for home buyers as well as her experiences and lessons to not get taken advantage of in business- especially from people you think you can trust.

Anne-Lyse’s Money Story

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure, absolutely. When my husband and I were getting ready to buy a first home, we were looking in a specific neighborhood. And after a little while we found our home. And we went through the normal process to get a loan. We got a home inspection, and we were excited. We were going to become homeowners. We had our first child. Then we had two other kids. And one day, we decided to go out of town for the weekend.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
As first-time homeowners, we didn't know that when you leave, even if it's for a couple of days, it's probably a good idea to shut down the water at your house. So we came back to a...

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, just pause right there. I don't think a lot of people do know that, because that's a big tip right there. We live in an apartment. We don't shut off all of our water. I don't even know if that's possible in an apartment, but this is certainly news to me. When you leave a house, you're supposed to turn off the whole water system. Not just not leave a faucet running.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes. It's advice to shut off the water system, and we didn't know until this happened to us. When we came back, our house was... I mean, the main floor, which was the kitchen, there was water damage. It had gone all the way down to our basement. We had to redo the entire main level of the floors. We had to redo the basement. And it all happened because the water line connected to the dishwasher, there was an issue there. And then we were out of town for a couple of days. So by the time we came back, it was a complete mess.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had to move out of our house for about I want to say six weeks. At the time, we had twin babies and a three-year-old. It took a while for the house to be renovated. We stayed in temporary housing for a little bit. And luckily, our insurance company covered most of the costs, but we found out that they weren't going to renew our policy. Two lessons there. The first one is, well, first of all, make sure that you shut off your water when you are leaving for more than a day.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And then the second one is before signing up for insurance, you talk to your insurance company and understand their policies. Because what we found out is the prior year, there was hailstorm in our neighborhood and our roof was damaged. The insurance company had replaced our roof, so that was two claims in two years. But those were the only claims we've had in about, I think, four years. The policy was if you have two claims in the past five years, well, you need to find a new insurance company.

Anne-Lyse-Wealth-Twitter-Quote-#3-Dream-of-Legacy.png

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And even though those were the only things that we've ever had, we had a really hard time finding another company to cover our insurance. As a result of that, our premium went up by, I think, five or six times. My advice is make sure that you understand the policies that your insurance company has. And also like for us, when we finally got out of that five-year range, we signed up for a company that allowed two incidents to happen without basically cutting you off after five years.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
So now we have a company that will let you have two incidents in two, three years as opposed to five.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one thinks about that kind of thing, so I think that's a great lesson. What other lessons do you have as a first time home buyer for first time home buyers?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When we went through the process to get our loan approved, we went through the inspection. There was some initial structural damage that had been fixed by the previous owner, and we received a letter from the engineer. The engineer came back and provided a letter to say that everything was back in order. But when it was time for us to sell our home I want to say five, six years later, we were in the process of getting everything done. We had an offer on the table.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one. It turns out that the structural damage was not fixed. It was a much bigger problem than we thought, and the buyer pulled their offer. It was the same structural engineer that we had hired a couple of months prior to make sure that everything was back on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think here the lesson is, and nothing against real estate investors, but when you do buy a home, just consider bringing in your own structural engineer. But when you do buy from an investor, pay even more attention to everything that's going on within the house. Because in this situation, they didn't really fix the problem. They put a bandaid on it and it got worse with time. As a result of that, we ended up selling the house for $100,000 less than we were expected to.

Bobbi Rebell:
It was the same inspector, so he changed his report?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
It wasn't an inspector. It was a structural engineer. The inspector cleared the house, but he recommended that we get a letter from the structural engineer that had done the work. The structural engineer came back, provided a report. But then a few years down the line when we were getting ready to sell the home, we hired another engineer to make sure that we were on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When the buyer asked that we provided the number of the engineer, we didn't have a problem because we knew that everything was good. But the engineer came back and gave them a report, refused to show us a report saying that we had to also pay the fee so that they would give us the report. And after that, the buyer just walked away and we hired another company. And that's when we realized that no, it was going to cost a lot more to fix the problem.

Bobbi Rebell:
The same structural engineer changed his story?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you confront them about this?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, when this happened, he was like, "Well, I came probably..." I think it was maybe six months or a year prior things changed, so we couldn't really prove that he had given us a different scenario. He had recommended that we do work. We did the work. After that, he refused to show us the report. To this day, I haven't seen the report that he gave to the buyer.

Anne-Lyse’s Money Lesson + Money Tip

Anne-Lyse-Wealth-Twitter-Quote-#1-Dream-of-Legacy.png

I think the tip for us is if you do buy a house that is a preexisting home, it's not a bad idea to go one step further than just hiring a home inspector, getting a structural engineer. In our case, I think it would have been better to get two different engineers so we could make an educated decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which seems expensive in the short-term, but clearly it costs you in the long-term not doing that, right?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Exactly. I think I would have gladly paid the extra $500 and save $100,000.

Follow Anne-Lyse!

Instagram - @annelysewealth
Facebook - @annelysewealth
Twitter - @annelysewealth
Pinterest - @annelysewealth
Website - http://dreamoflegacy.com
Book - Dream of Legacy

Follow Bobbi!

Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have this solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates, if you can't decide. Use code "grownup" for a 15% off your first order.

Bobbi Rebell:
Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had an offer on the table. We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you wondering what that surprise was? Well, get ready to learn so much in this episode with Anne-Lyse. She has a wealth coach, a writer, and host of The Dreamers Podcast. She's also the founder of dreamoflegacy.com, a platform dedicated to inspiring millennials to build wealth with purpose, as well as the author of Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview, Anne-Lyse is very honest about the mistakes that she and her husband made with their home and all the grownup responsibilities that came with residential ownership. And here's the thing, even though she felt she should have done certain things that might have saved her from a lot of financial pain, the so-called mistakes were things that frankly all of us do, or in some cases, don't do. Please listen carefully because I don't want anyone else to get hurt the way she and her family did.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now later in the interview, things get even more real when Anne-Lyse shares details of how her father lost everything he had worked for, and she mentions it in the book, but she doesn't go into a lot of details. In our interview, I was really moved that she felt comfortable enough to share the details that weren't revealed in the book, and I am truly grateful for it. You are all going to benefit from it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Listening to this interview will be time very well spent. Here is Anne-Lyse. Anne-Lyse, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Hi, Bobbi. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm excited to talk in a few minutes about your book, Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids. But first, I wanted you to come on and talk about your experience buying a new home and sharing some of your tips for new home buyers, because that is something so many people are doing right now. Give us some context though first, Anne-Lyse. Tell us what happened to you and then we'll get to your tips.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure, absolutely. When my husband and I were getting ready to buy a first home, we were looking in a specific neighborhood. And after a little while we found our home. And we went through the normal process to get a loan. We got a home inspection, and we were excited. We were going to become homeowners. We had our first child. Then we had two other kids. And one day, we decided to go out of town for the weekend.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
As first-time homeowners, we didn't know that when you leave, even if it's for a couple of days, it's probably a good idea to shut down the water at your house. So we came back to a...

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, just pause right there. I don't think a lot of people do know that, because that's a big tip right there. We live in an apartment. We don't shut off all of our water. I don't even know if that's possible in an apartment, but this is certainly news to me. When you leave a house, you're supposed to turn off the whole water system. Not just not leave a faucet running.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes. It's advice to shut off the water system, and we didn't know until this happened to us. When we came back, our house was... I mean, the main floor, which was the kitchen, there was water damage. It had gone all the way down to our basement. We had to redo the entire main level of the floors. We had to redo the basement. And it all happened because the water line connected to the dishwasher, there was an issue there. And then we were out of town for a couple of days. So by the time we came back, it was a complete mess.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had to move out of our house for about I want to say six weeks. At the time, we had twin babies and a three-year-old. It took a while for the house to be renovated. We stayed in temporary housing for a little bit. And luckily, our insurance company covered most of the costs, but we found out that they weren't going to renew our policy. Two lessons there. The first one is, well, first of all, make sure that you shut off your water when you are leaving for more than a day.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And then the second one is before signing up for insurance, you talk to your insurance company and understand their policies. Because what we found out is the prior year, there was hailstorm in our neighborhood and our roof was damaged. The insurance company had replaced our roof, so that was two claims in two years. But those were the only claims we've had in about, I think, four years. The policy was if you have two claims in the past five years, well, you need to find a new insurance company.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And even though those were the only things that we've ever had, we had a really hard time finding another company to cover our insurance. As a result of that, our premium went up by, I think, five or six times. My advice is make sure that you understand the policies that your insurance company has. And also like for us, when we finally got out of that five-year range, we signed up for a company that allowed two incidents to happen without basically cutting you off after five years.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
So now we have a company that will let you have two incidents in two, three years as opposed to five.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one thinks about that kind of thing, so I think that's a great lesson. What other lessons do you have as a first time home buyer for first time home buyers?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When we went through the process to get our loan approved, we went through the inspection. There was some initial structural damage that had been fixed by the previous owner, and we received a letter from the engineer. The engineer came back and provided a letter to say that everything was back in order. But when it was time for us to sell our home I want to say five, six years later, we were in the process of getting everything done. We had an offer on the table.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one. It turns out that the structural damage was not fixed. It was a much bigger problem than we thought, and the buyer pulled their offer. It was the same structural engineer that we had hired a couple of months prior to make sure that everything was back on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think here the lesson is, and nothing against real estate investors, but when you do buy a home, just consider bringing in your own structural engineer. But when you do buy from an investor, pay even more attention to everything that's going on within the house. Because in this situation, they didn't really fix the problem. They put a bandaid on it and it got worse with time. As a result of that, we ended up selling the house for $100,000 less than we were expected to.

Bobbi Rebell:
It was the same inspector, so he changed his report?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
It wasn't an inspector. It was a structural engineer. The inspector cleared the house, but he recommended that we get a letter from the structural engineer that had done the work. The structural engineer came back, provided a report. But then a few years down the line when we were getting ready to sell the home, we hired another engineer to make sure that we were on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When the buyer asked that we provided the number of the engineer, we didn't have a problem because we knew that everything was good. But the engineer came back and gave them a report, refused to show us a report saying that we had to also pay the fee so that they would give us the report. And after that, the buyer just walked away and we hired another company. And that's when we realized that no, it was going to cost a lot more to fix the problem.

Bobbi Rebell:
The same structural engineer changed his story?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you confront them about this?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, when this happened, he was like, "Well, I came probably..." I think it was maybe six months or a year prior things changed, so we couldn't really prove that he had given us a different scenario. He had recommended that we do work. We did the work. After that, he refused to show us the report. To this day, I haven't seen the report that he gave to the buyer.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson and the tip from that?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think the tip for us is if you do buy a house that is a preexisting home, it's not a bad idea to go one step further than just hiring a home inspector, getting a structural engineer. In our case, I think it would have been better to get two different engineers so we could make an educated decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which seems expensive in the short-term, but clearly it costs you in the long-term not doing that, right?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Exactly. I think I would have gladly paid the extra $500 and save $100,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I think so. This breaks my heart. It unfortunately reminds me of some things that you share in your book, which I mentioned at the top of the episode. It's called Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids. But in that, you recall a lot of your family experiences and the money experiences of your parents. Can you share a little bit of that, because I believe there's a lot of tips we can learn from that?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure. I think there's so much to talk about here. But if I want to focus on the essential, one thing that I learned from my parents growing up is to live below your means.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that was especially important in your community. Can you talk about that and the cultural pressures that they did have?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Oh, absolutely. My parents had five biological children, but I grew up in a house full of cousins. A bunch of my cousins lived with us because in my culture, the person who makes it is expected to take care of the family. My parents were not only taking care of us financially, but they were financially providing for cousins and even like their siblings. There's a lot of financial pressure that comes with getting to a good place financially.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think one of the reason why my parents always lived below their means, and also just preparing for the unexpected. I'll share here a couple of instances where that will really help them and our family. One of them is... Sometime in the '90s, my father, he had a business partner that he had worked with for a while, and they had a couple of businesses together, or actually I should say, so he thought, because it turns out that...

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I don't know if you've ever watched the movie Catch Me If You Can, but his business partner was actually a master at deceiving. There were a couple of businesses that they had started and he basically robbed my father of a significant amount of money. To be fully transparent, that was in the '90s and it's the equivalent of $700,000 in today's dollars.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow!

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes, and that was very complicated schemes that his business partner did. Overnight your retirement funds or some of your retirement funds disappeared. It took a few years for my father to realize what this man was knowing, because he was not only his business partner, he was also his lawyer. So that definitely impacted my parents' bottom line. But because they had been living below their means, they were able to sustain that challenge.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Later on, my mother was diagnosed with a long-term illness and she kind of overnight needed 24-hour care. My parents live in a country where insurance or disability insurance is not really a thing. You have to finance it yourself. Now all of a sudden, my mother was working, so it's down to just one person working, and now you have to pay for very heavy medical fees. If my parents hadn't lived below their means, they wouldn't have been able to.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow! This is a lot. I'm so happy that they did do that. What is the tip from that, I guess, beyond obviously you want to live below your means?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, that's the main tip, but I think just in general... This is more like a general tip. You just have to double and triple check and even the people who are supposed to be your advisors, whether it's your financial or your lawyer, you just have to make sure that they are serving your best interests and you cannot blindly trust them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Don't blindly trust somebody. Yes. Check the paperwork. Even if someone else's is doing it and you think that they're taking care of everything and you trust them, it's still important to get in there and understand what's going on yourself. This has been wonderful. Anne-Lyse, where can people find out more about you and about Anne-Lyse Wealth?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure. I am at dreamoflegacy.com if you want to visit me there and sign up for my newsletter. You can also find out more about my book, which is Dream of Legacy, on my website or on Amazon. And I'm also on Instagram and Twitter @annelysewealth, which is A-N-N-E-L-Y-S-E-W-E-A-L-T-H.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for sharing so much. I really loved having you.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, grownups, let's review just some of the highlights from this interview with Anne-Lyse. Be careful when you buy insurance. Actually read and make sure you understand all the coverage limits. And if you don't fully understand it, take it to someone who can walk you through how things would actually play out in different scenarios. You don't think you're going to have those multiple claims, but, well, that's what insurance is for, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Double and triple check with a home inspectors and engineers so you do know the actual true status of your home's structural health and make sure you document everything. Just because you think you can trust someone like a business partner who is a dear friend and, in the case of Anne-Lyse's father, you're a long time lawyer, you still need to be checking the numbers. Do not trust blindly. That's a harsh lesson, but yeah. Be aware of cultural money pressures.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, Anne-Lyse talked about this a little bit, but I strongly recommend everyone read her book, Dream of Legacy, because in it she talks about the cultural norms that can often lead to damaging financial decisions and habits in the black community. Every culture is different, of course. But whatever your heritage is, it's important to identify and understand how it impacts the money habits for you and for those around you. I would love to hear how you think the environment, culture, and even the people around you impact your money decisions.

Bobbi Rebell:
DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. And if you aren't already subscribed, please sign up for my now weekly money tips newsletter. You're going to get insights about our interviews, previews of upcoming Clubhouse sessions, and links to relevant news and information to lead your best brought up life. Big thanks to Anne-Lyse of Anne-Lyse Wealth for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast's show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club.

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Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Authors, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJuly 6, 2021Homeowner, Insurance, Home Insurance

Money Tips to Avoid Financial Chaos with Micro-Empires’ Jennifer Grimson

Our grownup lives sometimes take a turn for the worst at the time we least expect it. Jennifer Grimson experienced it all from filing for bankruptcy twice, becoming AirBNB pro and making some tough decisions to downsize her family's lifestyle in order to become a millionaire.

Jennifer-Grimson-Main-Instagram-Micro-Empires-Podcast.png

Jennifer’s Money Story + Money Tips To Handle Financial Chaos

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, yes I have. So have many people. So my story is that I lost everything twice. So no job, no car, no place to live, two kids to raise, and chapter 13 bankruptcy. And that happened to me twice, once at the age of 29 and once at the age of 41, and the second time that it happened, I realized that I needed to do something to rebuild in a way that would protect me. So for me, that meant building small pockets of wealth, finger quotes, and security. And that's what the show that I have, which is called Micro Empires, is about, is just basically creating these small pockets so that if anything is taken away, you aren't left completely empty handed and at a loss of what to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those two bankruptcies, different stories each time, give us just a little sense of what caused those, because a lot of people go, well, how did that happen? I mean, the first time you had a one and a three-year-old. What happened?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, the bankruptcies were are actually caused by the same thing, but how it happened to me was that I was in a very contentious divorce. So my ex-husband sued me twenty-five times in 10 years, and I amassed over $500,000 in attorney's fees. And I can go into great detail about that, but I don't think we have time for it, but in my case, it wasn't that I purchased a home and went in upside down, or I bought expensive cars, or had terrible spending habits. It's that I was running from somebody who was punishing me financially through the court system, which is another entire story altogether.

Jennifer Grimson:
But chapter 13 was a way for me to escape the lawsuits, and the first one helped me preserve the home that I lived in. So it was probably the first lesson I got in there are tools out there for you to use to help you financially. Now, chapter 13 bankruptcy is no fun. You pay your creditors back. Your credit is ruined for 10 years. You have to live on cash. It is not a great existence, but it did release me from lawsuits. So I did that not only once, but twice. But on top of everything, the second time I found myself without anything, no car, no job, no place to live. What I had done then was to turn my financial wellbeing over to someone else, namely the person that I was in a relationship with, so that when that relationship ended, I was really left with nothing.

Jennifer Grimson:
And as shameful as I felt that was, I decided a year ago, when I decided to start the show, that I would share the story because I knew I wasn't the only one. I think women do it more than men. I think it happens a lot, and there's a lot of shame in it when really the shame should be honestly on the other person, who's kind of not being fair about that. But at any rate, it taught me a hard, hard lesson and I really didn't get the message until I was about 41, that no matter what I did, I was going to have to rebuild in a different way than I had done in the past.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now it is a decade after that second bankruptcy. Just to catch people up, you became a real estate investor.

Jennifer-Grimson-Twitter-Quote-#1-Micro-Empires-Podcast.png

Jennifer Grimson:
Yes, I did. So from 41 years old, the following three years it took me to correct my credit, which is a journey in and of itself. And then the first thing I did was to purchase a home, which was a miracle. And I walk through how I made that happen. And then through house hacking and short term rental, in four years, I created $1.4 million in income producing investments.

Jennifer Grimson:
And there's a reason they're called income producing investments. I didn't have $1.4 million. I had mortgages, I had overhead, I had all of the things, but what I had done was created, I actually had three properties that were Airbnb. And those properties all had their own incomes, their own empires, on top of a corporate job. So that way, I had at least four areas of income, and then I created other areas of income, as well. So I kept creating these little pockets of income.

Jennifer Grimson:
And then that's morphed. I've moved into investing into multi-family and other things. But again, by using tools, tools that I had at the ready. So I didn't realize, when I rebuilt the second time, I did it with a W-2 really and some grit. So other than that, I mean, I didn't have a great investment that I made a ton of money off of or anything like that. I simply just used the tools at hand, which are part of why I want to do the show, to share what's available to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know you don't do Airbnb investing right now, but just quickly, give us some insider secrets and tips for getting started with Airbnb. What did you learn there?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, I learned a lot. So first and foremost, I started doing it in 2014 in Nashville, Tennessee, where no one was doing it at the time. And that was a great time to do it. So my advice to anybody is anytime you see an opportunity, and maybe it's something new and edgy, and you're willing to take the risk, and risk, you know, I talk about risk a lot, it has to be a risk that you're comfortable with, I say, go for it. I needed to do everything in micro steps. Also part of why I do the things the way that I do. I'm not a huge risk taker.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I had my home. I started renting it out on the weekends through Airbnb and quickly realized that this could be a real way for me to not only cover my mortgage and expenses, but a way for me to create an income. My best advice for people, if you're getting involved in Airbnb and you're just starting out and you're just a normal person, like you're not a person who has hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank or millions to lose, I say, go find an emerging market and buy a really, really affordable home. Your money in real estate is made on the purchase. So if you purchase high, you're not really probably going to make a lot of money off it, no matter what your plan is with it. You've got to find a way to purchase low.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I purchased in evolving neighborhoods. I took a chance in that. And I went ahead and lived in the properties, which allowed me to get in there for very little money. I furnished them myself. I managed them myself, until such time that they were up and running and I was able to hire other people to do that. Those would be my basic tips on Airbnb. I could talk about that forever, but those are sort of the basics.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hands-on first, then hand it off. Okay, so that was a nice little bonus tangent for everybody. But the real reason I asked you to come on was to tell us your tips on how to handle financial chaos, which of course has to start with actually recognizing financial chaos. Like, there was a cereal incident in your car, with your children.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. So financial chaos is a really sad, scary place to live and to be. And I lived in it for many, many years, and I didn't know what I was living in. I like to describe it to people, I have this metaphor, like imagine you're living in a home, there's no lights in the home, and it's a hoarder. You're living in a home with a hoarder, and there's all this stuff piled up, but you don't know it's there, but you feel like something's wrong. You're not really sure what it is.

Jennifer Grimson:
And one day, someone turns the light switch on and you see all of the chaos, all of the mayhem, and that person who's creating it, whether it's you or potentially your partner, runs over and shuts that light off, and says, "Oh, never mind, never mind." You can't unsee it. So in my case, I lived in a situation where I was, to simplify it, I was a saver and my ex-husband was a spender. He had a lot of emotional attachment to money and how it made him feel. And we were living in absolute dire straights, things like he would get angry if I bought the generic brand cereal. We were so broke, I was bouncing checks to buy groceries. I would go to three different grocery stores to find the best deals.

Jennifer Grimson:
I took my children shopping one night, like I did normally, so I had them with me in the evening, little babies in diapers, in and out of the car. We'd go to three different grocery stores to save the money. And then on the way home, we're in California on Highway 101, I pull over on the side of the road, I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos. You're risking your entire life to keep someone happy about something that has to really do with money and your relationship with money. So that's financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
And when I talk to people about their money, and it's very, very personal. People will tell you about their sex lives before they'll tell you about their money, which is kind of crazy, but they'll explain things to me that they've become accustomed to because they've been living in it for so long. But that is sort of the truth of it, and recognizing it, as well. My advice is to look at, do you have a shared approach to money? Do you and your partner have a shared approach? Do you find it really difficult to go without the nice to haves? Or does your partner? Do you feel sick whenever you have to talk about money? And then examining what wealthy might mean to you, also a good tool in figuring out where you are on the money spectrum.

Bobbi Rebell:
Once we've identified that we are in financial chaos, which probably more of us are in than we realize, give us some tips to calm that financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, if you're in a partnership with someone who is creating the chaos, and it's not yourself, because sometimes it could be yourself, and there's a little test that I offer in the episode that I did this week, but probably the first thing is to sit down and have a conversation with that partner. Chances are, that may not go well if you've never had a conversation before, and there are therapists and books and things that can help you with that, but it's really taking a hard look at your own relationship with money. I happen to call it money culture, and I have a free ebook, as well, that walks you through like where are you with money and how do you feel and why do you do the things that you do?

Jennifer-Grimson-Twitter-Quote-#3-Micro-Empires-Podcast.png

Jennifer Grimson:
Hopefully if you can sit down and have a conversation with a partner and that person is able to come to grips with their own relationship with money, perhaps saying, "Yeah, I do these things because it makes me feel loved," or, "I didn't get this as a child," or, "It makes me feel like a better person when I have expensive things," you can start to work through that and come up with a plan together about how money is tied directly to identity and security. And so examining that and looking at it as a whole and saying is our identity more important than our security? Do we have to have a Mercedes-Benz outside and a really expensive house that we can't afford? Or is it better for us to have a little bit less and feel safe? That's what it is for me, anyway. I have to feel safe when it comes to money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a lot of us feel that way. So that's if a partner's involved. What if it's on you? What if there is financial chaos in your life and you just need to do something about it? What are your tips?

Jennifer Grimson:
So one of the things I say is try to go 30 days without purchasing anything above food and shelter, and see if you can do it, see how it makes you feel, write it down, those sorts of things. I think the root of it, if you're in it and you're causing it, is that you've got to figure out why you're doing it. So for me, my money lessons, my money culture, has been based in fear because I've been in these really extreme situations twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also sometimes give people some very tough love that they do not want to hear about big life decisions about their lifestyle overall.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I say a lot that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This is interesting to me. Met with a woman recently and she said, "I'm really struggling. I've been out of work." She's somebody I knew years ago in the corporate world. She'd been out of work for a long time. She was struggling to find a new corporate job, and let's face it, age-ism is a real thing. And there isn't much I can do to help her with that, other than networking. But I said, "Well, let's take a look at what you've got." And she's got this amazing home in a phenomenal location here in Nashville. She's got an outbuilding, an apartment. She already has an apartment.

Jennifer Grimson:
I said, "Well, you could turn that into an Airbnb." This is just an example. And obviously with all the experience I have, I was even willing to help her with the marketing and tell her what works best and all the tips. And she was like, "Well, I don't want people at my house." And okay, you don't want people at your house. That's okay. But you're choosing your identity, I think, over your security. I didn't want people at my house, either, Bobbi. I was tired of people using my bathrooms and sleeping in my beds, but I cared more about my security.

Jennifer Grimson:
So maybe you don't want somebody living in your house. That's fine. Maybe you don't want to give up the expensive purses. That's fine. But are you going to be able to give up the travel, or are you going to be able to give up eating out, or are you going to be able to give up, or are you willing to live basically on the fringe of complete financial ruin day in and day out?

Jennifer Grimson:
So for me, the second time I lost everything, my kids were in private school. I was living in this beautiful neighborhood. My first thought was, how do I keep them in private school? How do I get an apartment in this neighborhood? How do I keep this lifestyle that I've been creating for them? And the truth was, I wasn't going to keep any of that. I needed to move out. I needed to live with my sister, on her generosity, for four months. I needed to look at different areas for them to go to school.

Jennifer Grimson:
And so grappling with the fact that you may need to give up what you've become accustomed to, to achieve freedom, is just a really important topic that we go into over and over again. Clinging to what you had may not be your path to freedom.

Follow Jennifer!

Instagram - @microempires
Facebook - @MicroEmpiresPodcast
Twitter - @jives3_jennifer
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-grimson-7265bb8/
Website - http://www.micro-empires.com/

Follow Bobbi!

Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Jennifer Grimson:
We're in California on Highway 101. I pull over on the side of the road. I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there, pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. As you heard, there was a point when Micro Empires podcast host Jennifer Grimson's life was truly in financial chaos. She can talk about it now, but literally pulling over to put generic cereal into brand name boxes so your husband won't know you saved money, that's really bananas, right? Jennifer talks candidly about her decisions to file for bankruptcy twice and the consequences of that tough decision. But she also gives some priceless tips on how we can first recognize when our financial lives are in chaos, because very often we are in the dark.

Bobbi Rebell:
And while it's not the primary focus of our interview, I did manage to sneak in some questions about maximizing your Airbnb properties and what makes a good investment. And you'll also hear why that's so relevant to Jennifer's story. Here is Jennifer Grimson. Jennifer Grimson, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jennifer Grimson:
Thank you so much for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am looking forward to speaking with you about your tips to handle financial chaos. That's why I brought you on, because it was a recent episode of your podcast, Micro Empires. But first, I want to hear a little bit more about your backstory because you have been through it all.

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, yes I have. So have many people. So my story is that I lost everything twice. So no job, no car, no place to live, two kids to raise, and chapter 13 bankruptcy. And that happened to me twice, once at the age of 29 and once at the age of 41, and the second time that it happened, I realized that I needed to do something to rebuild in a way that would protect me. So for me, that meant building small pockets of wealth, finger quotes, and security. And that's what the show that I have, which is called Micro Empires, is about, is just basically creating these small pockets so that if anything is taken away, you aren't left completely empty handed and at a loss of what to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those two bankruptcies, different stories each time, give us just a little sense of what caused those, because a lot of people go, well, how did that happen? I mean, the first time you had a one and a three-year-old. What happened?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, the bankruptcies were are actually caused by the same thing, but how it happened to me was that I was in a very contentious divorce. So my ex-husband sued me twenty-five times in 10 years, and I amassed over $500,000 in attorney's fees. And I can go into great detail about that, but I don't think we have time for it, but in my case, it wasn't that I purchased a home and went in upside down, or I bought expensive cars, or had terrible spending habits. It's that I was running from somebody who was punishing me financially through the court system, which is another entire story altogether.

Jennifer Grimson:
But chapter 13 was a way for me to escape the lawsuits, and the first one helped me preserve the home that I lived in. So it was probably the first lesson I got in there are tools out there for you to use to help you financially. Now, chapter 13 bankruptcy is no fun. You pay your creditors back. Your credit is ruined for 10 years. You have to live on cash. It is not a great existence, but it did release me from lawsuits. So I did that not only once, but twice. But on top of everything, the second time I found myself without anything, no car, no job, no place to live. What I had done then was to turn my financial wellbeing over to someone else, namely the person that I was in a relationship with, so that when that relationship ended, I was really left with nothing.

Jennifer Grimson:
And as shameful as I felt that was, I decided a year ago, when I decided to start the show, that I would share the story because I knew I wasn't the only one. I think women do it more than men. I think it happens a lot, and there's a lot of shame in it when really the shame should be honestly on the other person, who's kind of not being fair about that. But at any rate, it taught me a hard, hard lesson and I really didn't get the message until I was about 41, that no matter what I did, I was going to have to rebuild in a different way than I had done in the past.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now it is a decade after that second bankruptcy. Just to catch people up, you became a real estate investor.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yes, I did. So from 41 years old, the following three years it took me to correct my credit, which is a journey in and of itself. And then the first thing I did was to purchase a home, which was a miracle. And I walk through how I made that happen. And then through house hacking and short term rental, in four years, I created $1.4 million in income producing investments.

Jennifer Grimson:
And there's a reason they're called income producing investments. I didn't have $1.4 million. I had mortgages, I had overhead, I had all of the things, but what I had done was created, I actually had three properties that were Airbnb. And those properties all had their own incomes, their own empires, on top of a corporate job. So that way, I had at least four areas of income, and then I created other areas of income, as well. So I kept creating these little pockets of income.

Jennifer Grimson:
And then that's morphed. I've moved into investing into multi-family and other things. But again, by using tools, tools that I had at the ready. So I didn't realize, when I rebuilt the second time, I did it with a W-2 really and some grit. So other than that, I mean, I didn't have a great investment that I made a ton of money off of or anything like that. I simply just used the tools at hand, which are part of why I want to do the show, to share what's available to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know you don't do Airbnb investing right now, but just quickly, give us some insider secrets and tips for getting started with Airbnb. What did you learn there?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, I learned a lot. So first and foremost, I started doing it in 2014 in Nashville, Tennessee, where no one was doing it at the time. And that was a great time to do it. So my advice to anybody is anytime you see an opportunity, and maybe it's something new and edgy, and you're willing to take the risk, and risk, you know, I talk about risk a lot, it has to be a risk that you're comfortable with, I say, go for it. I needed to do everything in micro steps. Also part of why I do the things the way that I do. I'm not a huge risk taker.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I had my home. I started renting it out on the weekends through Airbnb and quickly realized that this could be a real way for me to not only cover my mortgage and expenses, but a way for me to create an income. My best advice for people, if you're getting involved in Airbnb and you're just starting out and you're just a normal person, like you're not a person who has hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank or millions to lose, I say, go find an emerging market and buy a really, really affordable home. Your money in real estate is made on the purchase. So if you purchase high, you're not really probably going to make a lot of money off it, no matter what your plan is with it. You've got to find a way to purchase low.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I purchased in evolving neighborhoods. I took a chance in that. And I went ahead and lived in the properties, which allowed me to get in there for very little money. I furnished them myself. I managed them myself, until such time that they were up and running and I was able to hire other people to do that. Those would be my basic tips on Airbnb. I could talk about that forever, but those are sort of the basics.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hands-on first, then hand it off. Okay, so that was a nice little bonus tangent for everybody. But the real reason I asked you to come on was to tell us your tips on how to handle financial chaos, which of course has to start with actually recognizing financial chaos. Like, there was a cereal incident in your car, with your children.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. So financial chaos is a really sad, scary place to live and to be. And I lived in it for many, many years, and I didn't know what I was living in. I like to describe it to people, I have this metaphor, like imagine you're living in a home, there's no lights in the home, and it's a hoarder. You're living in a home with a hoarder, and there's all this stuff piled up, but you don't know it's there, but you feel like something's wrong. You're not really sure what it is.

Jennifer Grimson:
And one day, someone turns the light switch on and you see all of the chaos, all of the mayhem, and that person who's creating it, whether it's you or potentially your partner, runs over and shuts that light off, and says, "Oh, never mind, never mind." You can't unsee it. So in my case, I lived in a situation where I was, to simplify it, I was a saver and my ex-husband was a spender. He had a lot of emotional attachment to money and how it made him feel. And we were living in absolute dire straights, things like he would get angry if I bought the generic brand cereal. We were so broke, I was bouncing checks to buy groceries. I would go to three different grocery stores to find the best deals.

Jennifer Grimson:
I took my children shopping one night, like I did normally, so I had them with me in the evening, little babies in diapers, in and out of the car. We'd go to three different grocery stores to save the money. And then on the way home, we're in California on Highway 101, I pull over on the side of the road, I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos. You're risking your entire life to keep someone happy about something that has to really do with money and your relationship with money. So that's financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
And when I talk to people about their money, and it's very, very personal. People will tell you about their sex lives before they'll tell you about their money, which is kind of crazy, but they'll explain things to me that they've become accustomed to because they've been living in it for so long. But that is sort of the truth of it, and recognizing it, as well. My advice is to look at, do you have a shared approach to money? Do you and your partner have a shared approach? Do you find it really difficult to go without the nice to haves? Or does your partner? Do you feel sick whenever you have to talk about money? And then examining what wealthy might mean to you, also a good tool in figuring out where you are on the money spectrum.

Bobbi Rebell:
Once we've identified that we are in financial chaos, which probably more of us are in than we realize, give us some tips to calm that financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, if you're in a partnership with someone who is creating the chaos, and it's not yourself, because sometimes it could be yourself, and there's a little test that I offer in the episode that I did this week, but probably the first thing is to sit down and have a conversation with that partner. Chances are, that may not go well if you've never had a conversation before, and there are therapists and books and things that can help you with that, but it's really taking a hard look at your own relationship with money. I happen to call it money culture, and I have a free ebook, as well, that walks you through like where are you with money and how do you feel and why do you do the things that you do?

Jennifer Grimson:
Hopefully if you can sit down and have a conversation with a partner and that person is able to come to grips with their own relationship with money, perhaps saying, "Yeah, I do these things because it makes me feel loved," or, "I didn't get this as a child," or, "It makes me feel like a better person when I have expensive things," you can start to work through that and come up with a plan together about how money is tied directly to identity and security. And so examining that and looking at it as a whole and saying is our identity more important than our security? Do we have to have a Mercedes-Benz outside and a really expensive house that we can't afford? Or is it better for us to have a little bit less and feel safe? That's what it is for me, anyway. I have to feel safe when it comes to money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a lot of us feel that way. So that's if a partner's involved. What if it's on you? What if there is financial chaos in your life and you just need to do something about it? What are your tips?

Jennifer Grimson:
So one of the things I say is try to go 30 days without purchasing anything above food and shelter, and see if you can do it, see how it makes you feel, write it down, those sorts of things. I think the root of it, if you're in it and you're causing it, is that you've got to figure out why you're doing it. So for me, my money lessons, my money culture, has been based in fear because I've been in these really extreme situations twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also sometimes give people some very tough love that they do not want to hear about big life decisions about their lifestyle overall.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I say a lot that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This is interesting to me. Met with a woman recently and she said, "I'm really struggling. I've been out of work." She's somebody I knew years ago in the corporate world. She'd been out of work for a long time. She was struggling to find a new corporate job, and let's face it, age-ism is a real thing. And there isn't much I can do to help her with that, other than networking. But I said, "Well, let's take a look at what you've got." And she's got this amazing home in a phenomenal location here in Nashville. She's got an outbuilding, an apartment. She already has an apartment.

Jennifer Grimson:
I said, "Well, you could turn that into an Airbnb." This is just an example. And obviously with all the experience I have, I was even willing to help her with the marketing and tell her what works best and all the tips. And she was like, "Well, I don't want people at my house." And okay, you don't want people at your house. That's okay. But you're choosing your identity, I think, over your security. I didn't want people at my house, either, Bobbi. I was tired of people using my bathrooms and sleeping in my beds, but I cared more about my security.

Jennifer Grimson:
So maybe you don't want somebody living in your house. That's fine. Maybe you don't want to give up the expensive purses. That's fine. But are you going to be able to give up the travel, or are you going to be able to give up eating out, or are you going to be able to give up, or are you willing to live basically on the fringe of complete financial ruin day in and day out?

Jennifer Grimson:
So for me, the second time I lost everything, my kids were in private school. I was living in this beautiful neighborhood. My first thought was, how do I keep them in private school? How do I get an apartment in this neighborhood? How do I keep this lifestyle that I've been creating for them? And the truth was, I wasn't going to keep any of that. I needed to move out. I needed to live with my sister, on her generosity, for four months. I needed to look at different areas for them to go to school.

Jennifer Grimson:
And so grappling with the fact that you may need to give up what you've become accustomed to, to achieve freedom, is just a really important topic that we go into over and over again. Clinging to what you had may not be your path to freedom.

Bobbi Rebell:
This has been so wonderful. Tell us where people can follow up with you. Of course, everybody needs to subscribe to the Micro Empires podcast.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah, the podcast, of course. My website is micro-empires.com. I'm on all the socials, either by Micro Empires or Jennifer Grimson. I have a free book. It's 28 pages. You can download it at my website. And I'm also creating a course called You Don't Have to Be Wealthy to Build Wealth. So I hope that will be really helpful for people. It's really for folks that are just kind of starting out, because I get asked the same questions over and over again. You know, I may not be the only person who's gone through this, but for a lot of folks who I hear, it's too late to start over, et cetera, et cetera, I think I'm a good example of somebody who went through it more than once, and later in life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Jennifer Grimson:
Thank you, Bobbi. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, let's review some of Jennifer's tips from the interview. First of all, look, bankruptcy is a serious decision, but it can be a tool to help in the most dire financial situations. So think about it carefully, but know that it might be right in some extreme situations. Don't turn your financial wellbeing over to someone else completely, even if that is someone that you are in a relationship with and you love and you believe will last forever. And I hope it does. But sometimes when a relationship ends, you can end up like Jennifer, with nothing. Just think about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jennifer set up her real estate as income producing investments. She had three Airbnbs with their own incomes that were separate, in addition to her W-2 job. So think about that when you are working on different side hustles or other ventures.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you find yourself in financial chaos and it involves a partner, make sure you sit down and try to have a conversation about it. Think about having them come to grips with their relationship with money and what is driving their decisions that are impacting both of you. Come up with a plan together. If you and you alone are the cause of the financial chaos, well, Jennifer suggests trying, for example, to go 30 days with just the most basic expenses. We're talking food and shelter, and maybe write down any time you stray. See how it makes you feel.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, figure out why you are doing it. Is it about identity, security, validation from others? Figure out what is your money culture based on? For Jennifer, it's based on fear of having to start over financially yet again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, I'd love to hear what you think of this episode. Have you ever found yourself in financial chaos? I would love to hear your reaction to this episode and maybe your stories. DM me on Instagram at @BobbiRebell1, and for previews of upcoming episodes and news that is relevant to our grownup lives, please subscribe to my newsletter. You can do so on my website, bobbirebell.com. Big thanks to Micro Empire's podcast host Jennifer Grimson for her fantastic advice and for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media, and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself, as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we've got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Financial Grownup, Financial Independence, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJune 29, 2021Real Estate, Airbnb, Rentals, Micro Empires, Jennifer Grimson, Bankruptcy

How to be Less Stressed Out About Money with YNAB’s Jesse Mecham

Jesse Mecham, found of You Need a Budget joins us with a fantastic list of ways we can be a lot less stressed out about money, communicate better about money with out loved ones, and in the end feel and be more in control of our finances.

Jesse’s Money Tips

Bobbi Rebell:
You are the founder, CEO, and creator, creative mind, I should say, behind You Need a Budget, affectionately known by many as YNAB. Congratulations on all the success of this product, and really, it's more than a product. It's really a whole suite of tools to help grownups.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're focused on anyone that thinks at some moment in time, "I think I might need a budget," and then we try and convince them that a budget is fun and useful and productive. Then we just teach them kind of a new way of thinking about their money and have them go on their way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the backstory of this really started with you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. I was the first one to realize that I needed a budget, at least that I knew, and my very new wife and I, we were both just newlyweds, broke, both in school. We wanted to get through school. We wanted to do it without taking on any debt, and we weren't making a lot of money at all. So I just thought, "Well, we need to watch this carefully." So I built this little spreadsheet for just me and my wife, Julie. A year later, it had done a lot of heavy lifting for us. We were on the same page. We were saving money.

Jesse Mecham:
Then this little baby came along, and our two big goals, we didn't want to borrow any money for school and we wanted Julie to be able to step out of the workforce and just focus on this baby, and she was the breadwinner at that time. I was still mainly focused on school. So the whole impetus was like, "Well, could we figure out some way to just kind of close that gap?" That was where I thought, "Well, maybe other people would want to use this spreadsheet that Julie and I have used." So we launched it and iterated for the next 17 years, and here we are.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of people are working from home, but they're thinking or they're being told that they're going to come back in some form. So much is up in the air. Give us some money tips for managing this time in our lives.

Jesse Mecham:
Structure. That is the word. You want to build structure in. It's not so you can be uber super productive, right? We're not saying, "Oh, now you can be Superwoman because you've got work right there. You can go sit over there and just start plugging away." Not that at all. It's actually structure to be able to stop working and find time to close things down. So anything you can do, if it's a morning routine and a shutdown routine, our team swears by that, if you have the luxury of finding a separate space with maybe a door that you can close, that's excellent. Headphones that you can pop on and mute things, that's excellent. Anything where you can create structure around your work, but most importantly it's so you can shut things down. We saw a lot of burnout from 2020, not because ... Well, I mean, yeah, because of the pandemic, but because people didn't know how to not be at work when work had come home.

Bobbi Rebell:
All the rules changed when the pandemic hit. It became kind of okay to have kids in the background, but at a certain point, there is a productivity cost. So give us some money tips for parents balancing work and family, especially in this transitional time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're promoters of remote work, and it's been kind of unfair for remote work to have the pandemic come along with the experiment, because what you were dealing with, it's like, "Oh, we don't like working from home because my kids are here." I'm like, "Well, they won't always be there. They'll probably be back in school, and it'll feel different," or suddenly someone's having to just on a whim work from their kitchen table. That's not ideal for basically most everyone. I say most because I do know one person that loves the chaos, and he works, codes right in that. But he is the exception.

Jesse Mecham:
So we don't want to combine our experience of working from home with the fact that we had all these other dynamics with the pandemic, number one, and maybe only, because you'd start here and then see what happened. You've got to have conversations with your spouse. You're probably both working, and you kind of have to say, "Okay, how do we divide and conquer this situation?" But Julie and I, when I used to work in our home, we had to have just straightforward conversations. I would say, "Hey, I'm going to go down." It's like I'm gone, just gone, and she was clear on that. Then she also needed to know from me, "Hey, are you going to come up for lunch? Should I eat without you?" She didn't want to just miss out on something. But it was a little bit of a burden for her if I wasn't very communicative on what my schedule looked like. She's like, "Oh, should I wait around, or should I take off with the kids and go somewhere?"

Jesse-Mecham-Twitter-Quote-#1-You-Need-A-Budget.png

Jesse Mecham:
So just overly communicating as far as the boundaries go has been really helpful, but you have to recognize you're always going to iterate on this. Everything's changing. Life will change. The kids will get a little older, and they can understand things like, "Hey, don't come in when the door's closed." I lock my door here when I'm doing something like this. It's recording where I'll hear Faye, my little five-year-old, run across the garage floor, and I'll hear her coming. She knows if the door's locked, that means don't knock. That means just give Dad a little bit of time, and I can pop out at some point. But you've got to communicate those boundaries like, "Hey, this is real. I'm really at work."

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's an area that is ripe for improvement in my home, for sure.

Jesse Mecham:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So okay. So your product is YNAB, and I'm sure some people are super fans and some people give you the eye roll. Part of it is that there's a perception that budgets are all about being restrictive. I'd like you to share an experience you had with your wife when you had a certain amount budgeted for groceries, but it wasn't working for her because it wasn't about the money.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, it's almost nothing is ever really about just the money. There's always something at least a few layers deep, and in this instance, I regret to say that it was a 10-year evolution of my learning on this and Julie also learning it as well. But for the most part, when we were first early on married and I was not even working just on YNAB, I had a real job and stuff, I mean, I was swamped doing that, and she was swamped doing these little kids. So we were both pretty swamped. I do still the heavy lifting of the budgeting as far as running the software and making sure everything's reconciled, and then she comes over and I'm like, "Hey, I'm ready for you." She comes over and she looks at it all, and we make sure we're on the same page.

Jesse Mecham:
That was always how it worked, and one of those categories in there was the groceries category. Our third rule of budgeting is to roll with the punches, meaning you can overspend. You just adjust. It's flexible. So every month, we would overspend in groceries, and then literally 10 years in, one day ... So this would mean we had four kids, probably, at the time. I was like ... Same old conversation. It was like a light bulb went off for Julie or something where she's like, "For me, a successful grocery trip doesn't mean I'm under budget. It means that the kids don't meltdown. It means that it's just smooth. It means we're in and out. That's success."

Jesse Mecham:
I was trying to have the old school Julie, when we were first married and she knew the price of every brand of can of corn. But over time, we had evolved, and she didn't have the brain space for it, nor should she have. So it was her recognizing the value that she was placing was on the experience, not on just, "Oh, look how little we spent." Way back when we were first married, it was vital that we spent so little because it was so tight. So I bumped our budget up quite a bit, and we haven't overspent since. That was a big lesson for me. There's usually something behind the scenes when we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and you're speaking to something that hits home for so many of our grownup listeners, that it is an evolution as you go through the different stages of being a grownup. At the early times, when you made that budget initially and the decision about how much money you would have for groceries, she was in a position where it made sense with her time and her attention to be looking at every little price. There sometimes is a time in life when the price within that budget is not the most important thing. It might be the time, that it's not worth her time, resources, especially now, as you have seven children, to know the price of corn or whatever it may be. So I think it's really important that financial grownups understand that things change and that's okay. It's important to be able to adjust things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're a big believer in not having debt. Obviously, you say it's not inevitable, but there are a lot of people that point out that debt can be used for good, like education. You were able to avoid debt for your education. Tell us about that, and give us some tips about avoiding debt, especially for people that are looking at student debt, credit card debt, what have you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. The student debt, I'll kind of set aside for just a moment. Credit card debt, for the most part, at least as it's reported, you see a lot of people say, "The worst situations are someone declares bankruptcy." They'll say, "A lot of the time, it's a medical debt that will kind of tip the scales," but we don't recognize all of the little debts that come along that kind of pile up. Then it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. This final one is a medical bill or something a little bit larger than is the norm. Most people, it's kind of death by a thousand cuts with that credit card balance. So it goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way. It goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way.

Jesse Mecham:
It's really because they're making spending decisions now, not considering future expenses that are going to happen, that are very much going to happen. The car will need to be repaired at some point or an appliance will need to be replaced. So when these abnormal kind of ... Someone will say, "Oh, it's this one-off thing. This isn't a normal month, but we had this one-off kind of 'Ah' experience. I just had a water heater go out. Well, just the pipe for it, where it started shooting a little stream of water in your face if you walked by. We were like, 'Well, we've got to get that fixed.'" That just happens. So that's all real, and there is no such thing as a normal month. So every time we see a new expense pop up, we're like, "Oh, that's abnormal. That's not normally what happens. So I'll just put it on this card because it's a one-off." You find out that that abnormal stuff happens all the time. So we're always kind of telling ourselves that story, and that story isn't true.

Jesse Mecham:
So when we get to our second rule, we are embracing those true expenses, we want people to be able to look ahead to those larger, less frequent expenses that surprise them and break them up into monthly amounts and start saving up for the car repair, the appliance repair, or the vacation, kids' summer camp or whatever it may be, not always just bad things. Then when they're choosing to spend money in the moment, they're considering the future as well. So that thinking shift, and I should say I'm not talking about people that are truly in dire straights. They know how to stretch. I mean, you talk about financial grownups, financial tips, they know how to stretch a dollar in ways that would just blow our minds. So I'm talking about people that make good money. They don't have good information, and so they're just not choosing in the moment based on information that's fit to really give them the answer they need. That's how we slowly get into the credit card debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can you get that information?

Jesse Mecham:
You need to stop looking at your checking account balance as the end all, be all point of information. Say, "Well, how much money do I have? Can I go out to sushi, or are we going to get some cheap pizza? Can I do this? Can I buy these shoes that I just saw or not?" People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Jesse Mecham:
So instead, we want them to follow our first rule. You take that bank balance, you break it up into jobs, and you say, "This month" ... Say we have $1,000. "400 of that is for groceries for the next little while. The 200 of it is for this thing. 100 of it is for a car repair that I know will happen, but I don't know when and I don't know how much, but 100 bucks would be better than zero. I'm going to set that aside this month." You just start breaking that pile of money down. 50 bucks will be for sushi. Then you live according to that plan.

Jesse Mecham:
When your friend says, "Hey, we should go get some sushi," you look at your phone, and instead of seeing that you have $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, yeah, sushi, slam dunk" or you see $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, should I? I don't know," you still don't know, still stressful, you look at the sushi category and you're like, "Oh, I've got 50 bucks. I'm sitting pretty. Let's go do sushi," or you see that your eating out category is $2 and you're like, "You want to just come over? I'll make you some tea or something." But you're not choosing something now without considering all of those future obligations that are going to hit you. That's the key.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to get through a couple other tips we have prepared for our listeners. You talk a lot about embracing your true expenses, and I feel like you were alluding to that in the last answer. What does it mean to embrace your true expenses?

Jesse Mecham:
You have to recognize that expenses are not even. They're not steady. They're like, I don't know, a really unhealthy EKG, maybe, where it's just like, "Boom, here's a big surprise. Boom, here's a big surprise." You always think, "Oh, that's the exception." It's not. It's real. Christmas comes every single year. So if you celebrate Christmas, if you do the gift thing, then you'd say, "Well, how much do we want to spend on that? Maybe it's $600." So you set aside 50 bucks a month. For all of 2021, you're setting aside 50 bucks a month, and then when Christmas comes, you have $600. Instead of flipping it around and starting to say, "Oh, well, I don't have any money, so I'll just put it on a card and then I'll pay that down," think about it this way, Bobbi. It's always you and future you that are sitting there with the pile of money. Future you needs to have a voice at the table.

Jesse Mecham:
If you think about the debt situation that you asked me about earlier, when you say someone's like, "Oh, we'll put that on a payment plan. We'll put this on a payment plan. That's the name of the game," that person, that company is thinking about future them. They're like, "Oh, man, it'd be great if you'd finance this car. Absolutely. It'd be great for us." They're totally thinking about future them, future quarterly earnings things for shareholders, future bank balance. I mean, they're all over the future. Then you have the person that signs it away saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that note for this car." They're not thinking about the future. I'm trying to flip that around. I'm trying to have people think about their future and position themselves to be future-oriented, where then they're making decisions with both of you in mind, future Bobbi, present Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and it's hard, because the truth is one of the things that worries a lot of us right now is that things like you talk about a car, car loans are getting longer and longer in term to make the payments look lower, but ultimately, you're paying more, and it's over your head for a very long time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're orienting where they know. Well, don't even look at the repo situation. I mean, how many times people will get cars repossessed, and the same car will get repossessed five times. There is someone making money in that scenario, and it's not the person driving the car. So that seven-year note that you see on cars now, they used to be three, then five. Now they're seven. All that is is an evolution of the financing of that GM, Ford. Every car company makes most of their money, most of their profits from the financing side of this, not from the manufacture of the car. They're putting it out to seven years because they know that future Toyota, future Honda, no knock on any of the companies, but they are future- and profit-oriented, and people that are buying the car are now-oriented.

Jesse Mecham:
That's where we have to just try and get that shift to happen. So you start paying yourself a car payment, saving up cash for it over time. It might mean that you buy a car that's beneath you for a little while, but then you trade up over time and you start paying cash for that. You get out of that car payment trap. It's not a given.

Bobbi Rebell:
Or you don't trade up. A lot of really wealthy people drive really crummy cars.

Jesse Mecham:
It is absolutely. Yeah. They're hiding in plain sight.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. One final tip. What does it mean to age your money?

Jesse-Mecham-Twitter-Quote-#3-You-Need-A-Budget.png

Jesse Mecham:
So we're essentially talking about if you were to earn a dollar today that it would be 30 to 60 days before you actually spent that dollar. So when a dollar enters your system, the clock starts ticking, and that dollar starts getting older and older and older. Right now, most people that are living paycheck to paycheck, they are spending dollars. I mean, they have a pile of bills just waiting for money to land, and we want to flip that around. We want to have a pile of money where bills come and land and you're like, "Oh, okay, I've got the money here set aside."

Jesse Mecham:
If you follow our first three rules, which we talk about ad nauseum, if you follow our first three rules, that fourth rule where you start to spend money that's a little older, a little older, a little older, it almost just happens automatically. It's a way to step back from the financial edge. You sleep better. You can talk more effectively about money with your partner because the stress levels are much lower. You make better decisions because of those stress levels being lower. You probably live longer because your stress levels are lower.

Jesse Mecham:
That's the aging your money concept. Spend money that is old. When you think about swiping a card, you actually spend money that ... Well, the metaphor breaks down, but it hasn't even been born yet. You haven't even earned it yet. The shift that we're seeing where companies are paying people for that day, for that shift, and they think that's going to help people break the paycheck to paycheck cycle, that's not going to do it. We're just pushing that can down the road. We have to have people start to orient themselves around thinking a little further ahead.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the way that you are reframing this and the different perspectives that you're giving, because I'm sitting here listening, and my mind is turning. It's so interesting to come at this from a different perspective. So thank you so much for joining us.

Follow Jesse!

Instagram - @youneedabudget
Facebook - @iYNAB
Twitter - @ynab
YouTube - @YouNeedABudget
Website - https://www.youneedabudget.com
Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-need-a-budget-ynab/id477248343

Follow Bobbi!

Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Jesse Mecham:
People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey there, grownup friends. Do you guys stress out about money? I do some of the time. I do. Do you check your bank balance before you make a purchase? Do you get anxious worrying about something unexpected coming at you, whacking your delicately balanced finances that are okay for now, but maybe not as strong as you would like, especially if those unexpected things should happen? But we have you covered with this week's financial grownup, Jesse Mecham. He is the founder of the You Need a Budget app and software, I should say, AKA, YNAB. Jesse has a lot to say about how we take the stress out of our grownup financial lives. The father of seven is remarkably calm. Yeah, I said the father of seven, in part because he has been able to separate his work from his family life, something we also talk about. I think you're really going to love his work from home tips as well. So with that, here is YNAB's Jesse Mecham. Hey, Jesse Mecham, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jesse Mecham:
Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are the founder, CEO, and creator, creative mind, I should say, behind You Need a Budget, affectionately known by many as YNAB. Congratulations on all the success of this product, and really, it's more than a product. It's really a whole suite of tools to help grownups.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're focused on anyone that thinks at some moment in time, "I think I might need a budget," and then we try and convince them that a budget is fun and useful and productive. Then we just teach them kind of a new way of thinking about their money and have them go on their way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the backstory of this really started with you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. I was the first one to realize that I needed a budget, at least that I knew, and my very new wife and I, we were both just newlyweds, broke, both in school. We wanted to get through school. We wanted to do it without taking on any debt, and we weren't making a lot of money at all. So I just thought, "Well, we need to watch this carefully." So I built this little spreadsheet for just me and my wife, Julie. A year later, it had done a lot of heavy lifting for us. We were on the same page. We were saving money.

Jesse Mecham:
Then this little baby came along, and our two big goals, we didn't want to borrow any money for school and we wanted Julie to be able to step out of the workforce and just focus on this baby, and she was the breadwinner at that time. I was still mainly focused on school. So the whole impetus was like, "Well, could we figure out some way to just kind of close that gap?" That was where I thought, "Well, maybe other people would want to use this spreadsheet that Julie and I have used." So we launched it and iterated for the next 17 years, and here we are.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of people are working from home, but they're thinking or they're being told that they're going to come back in some form. So much is up in the air. Give us some money tips for managing this time in our lives.

Jesse Mecham:
Structure. That is the word. You want to build structure in. It's not so you can be uber super productive, right? We're not saying, "Oh, now you can be Superwoman because you've got work right there. You can go sit over there and just start plugging away." Not that at all. It's actually structure to be able to stop working and find time to close things down. So anything you can do, if it's a morning routine and a shutdown routine, our team swears by that, if you have the luxury of finding a separate space with maybe a door that you can close, that's excellent. Headphones that you can pop on and mute things, that's excellent. Anything where you can create structure around your work, but most importantly it's so you can shut things down. We saw a lot of burnout from 2020, not because ... Well, I mean, yeah, because of the pandemic, but because people didn't know how to not be at work when work had come home.

Bobbi Rebell:
All the rules changed when the pandemic hit. It became kind of okay to have kids in the background, but at a certain point, there is a productivity cost. So give us some money tips for parents balancing work and family, especially in this transitional time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're promoters of remote work, and it's been kind of unfair for remote work to have the pandemic come along with the experiment, because what you were dealing with, it's like, "Oh, we don't like working from home because my kids are here." I'm like, "Well, they won't always be there. They'll probably be back in school, and it'll feel different," or suddenly someone's having to just on a whim work from their kitchen table. That's not ideal for basically most everyone. I say most because I do know one person that loves the chaos, and he works, codes right in that. But he is the exception.

Jesse Mecham:
So we don't want to combine our experience of working from home with the fact that we had all these other dynamics with the pandemic, number one, and maybe only, because you'd start here and then see what happened. You've got to have conversations with your spouse. You're probably both working, and you kind of have to say, "Okay, how do we divide and conquer this situation?" But Julie and I, when I used to work in our home, we had to have just straightforward conversations. I would say, "Hey, I'm going to go down." It's like I'm gone, just gone, and she was clear on that. Then she also needed to know from me, "Hey, are you going to come up for lunch? Should I eat without you?" She didn't want to just miss out on something. But it was a little bit of a burden for her if I wasn't very communicative on what my schedule looked like. She's like, "Oh, should I wait around, or should I take off with the kids and go somewhere?"

Jesse Mecham:
So just overly communicating as far as the boundaries go has been really helpful, but you have to recognize you're always going to iterate on this. Everything's changing. Life will change. The kids will get a little older, and they can understand things like, "Hey, don't come in when the door's closed." I lock my door here when I'm doing something like this. It's recording where I'll hear Faye, my little five-year-old, run across the garage floor, and I'll hear her coming. She knows if the door's locked, that means don't knock. That means just give Dad a little bit of time, and I can pop out at some point. But you've got to communicate those boundaries like, "Hey, this is real. I'm really at work."

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's an area that is ripe for improvement in my home, for sure.

Jesse Mecham:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So okay. So your product is YNAB, and I'm sure some people are super fans and some people give you the eye roll. Part of it is that there's a perception that budgets are all about being restrictive. I'd like you to share an experience you had with your wife when you had a certain amount budgeted for groceries, but it wasn't working for her because it wasn't about the money.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, it's almost nothing is ever really about just the money. There's always something at least a few layers deep, and in this instance, I regret to say that it was a 10-year evolution of my learning on this and Julie also learning it as well. But for the most part, when we were first early on married and I was not even working just on YNAB, I had a real job and stuff, I mean, I was swamped doing that, and she was swamped doing these little kids. So we were both pretty swamped. I do still the heavy lifting of the budgeting as far as running the software and making sure everything's reconciled, and then she comes over and I'm like, "Hey, I'm ready for you." She comes over and she looks at it all, and we make sure we're on the same page.

Jesse Mecham:
That was always how it worked, and one of those categories in there was the groceries category. Our third rule of budgeting is to roll with the punches, meaning you can overspend. You just adjust. It's flexible. So every month, we would overspend in groceries, and then literally 10 years in, one day ... So this would mean we had four kids, probably, at the time. I was like ... Same old conversation. It was like a light bulb went off for Julie or something where she's like, "For me, a successful grocery trip doesn't mean I'm under budget. It means that the kids don't meltdown. It means that it's just smooth. It means we're in and out. That's success."

Jesse Mecham:
I was trying to have the old school Julie, when we were first married and she knew the price of every brand of can of corn. But over time, we had evolved, and she didn't have the brain space for it, nor should she have. So it was her recognizing the value that she was placing was on the experience, not on just, "Oh, look how little we spent." Way back when we were first married, it was vital that we spent so little because it was so tight. So I bumped our budget up quite a bit, and we haven't overspent since. That was a big lesson for me. There's usually something behind the scenes when we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and you're speaking to something that hits home for so many of our grownup listeners, that it is an evolution as you go through the different stages of being a grownup. At the early times, when you made that budget initially and the decision about how much money you would have for groceries, she was in a position where it made sense with her time and her attention to be looking at every little price. There sometimes is a time in life when the price within that budget is not the most important thing. It might be the time, that it's not worth her time, resources, especially now, as you have seven children, to know the price of corn or whatever it may be. So I think it's really important that financial grownups understand that things change and that's okay. It's important to be able to adjust things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're a big believer in not having debt. Obviously, you say it's not inevitable, but there are a lot of people that point out that debt can be used for good, like education. You were able to avoid debt for your education. Tell us about that, and give us some tips about avoiding debt, especially for people that are looking at student debt, credit card debt, what have you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. The student debt, I'll kind of set aside for just a moment. Credit card debt, for the most part, at least as it's reported, you see a lot of people say, "The worst situations are someone declares bankruptcy." They'll say, "A lot of the time, it's a medical debt that will kind of tip the scales," but we don't recognize all of the little debts that come along that kind of pile up. Then it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. This final one is a medical bill or something a little bit larger than is the norm. Most people, it's kind of death by a thousand cuts with that credit card balance. So it goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way. It goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way.

Jesse Mecham:
It's really because they're making spending decisions now, not considering future expenses that are going to happen, that are very much going to happen. The car will need to be repaired at some point or an appliance will need to be replaced. So when these abnormal kind of ... Someone will say, "Oh, it's this one-off thing. This isn't a normal month, but we had this one-off kind of 'Ah' experience. I just had a water heater go out. Well, just the pipe for it, where it started shooting a little stream of water in your face if you walked by. We were like, 'Well, we've got to get that fixed.'" That just happens. So that's all real, and there is no such thing as a normal month. So every time we see a new expense pop up, we're like, "Oh, that's abnormal. That's not normally what happens. So I'll just put it on this card because it's a one-off." You find out that that abnormal stuff happens all the time. So we're always kind of telling ourselves that story, and that story isn't true.

Jesse Mecham:
So when we get to our second rule, we are embracing those true expenses, we want people to be able to look ahead to those larger, less frequent expenses that surprise them and break them up into monthly amounts and start saving up for the car repair, the appliance repair, or the vacation, kids' summer camp or whatever it may be, not always just bad things. Then when they're choosing to spend money in the moment, they're considering the future as well. So that thinking shift, and I should say I'm not talking about people that are truly in dire straights. They know how to stretch. I mean, you talk about financial grownups, financial tips, they know how to stretch a dollar in ways that would just blow our minds. So I'm talking about people that make good money. They don't have good information, and so they're just not choosing in the moment based on information that's fit to really give them the answer they need. That's how we slowly get into the credit card debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can you get that information?

Jesse Mecham:
You need to stop looking at your checking account balance as the end all, be all point of information. Say, "Well, how much money do I have? Can I go out to sushi, or are we going to get some cheap pizza? Can I do this? Can I buy these shoes that I just saw or not?" People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Jesse Mecham:
So instead, we want them to follow our first rule. You take that bank balance, you break it up into jobs, and you say, "This month" ... Say we have $1,000. "400 of that is for groceries for the next little while. The 200 of it is for this thing. 100 of it is for a car repair that I know will happen, but I don't know when and I don't know how much, but 100 bucks would be better than zero. I'm going to set that aside this month." You just start breaking that pile of money down. 50 bucks will be for sushi. Then you live according to that plan.

Jesse Mecham:
When your friend says, "Hey, we should go get some sushi," you look at your phone, and instead of seeing that you have $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, yeah, sushi, slam dunk" or you see $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, should I? I don't know," you still don't know, still stressful, you look at the sushi category and you're like, "Oh, I've got 50 bucks. I'm sitting pretty. Let's go do sushi," or you see that your eating out category is $2 and you're like, "You want to just come over? I'll make you some tea or something." But you're not choosing something now without considering all of those future obligations that are going to hit you. That's the key.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to get through a couple other tips we have prepared for our listeners. You talk a lot about embracing your true expenses, and I feel like you were alluding to that in the last answer. What does it mean to embrace your true expenses?

Jesse Mecham:
You have to recognize that expenses are not even. They're not steady. They're like, I don't know, a really unhealthy EKG, maybe, where it's just like, "Boom, here's a big surprise. Boom, here's a big surprise." You always think, "Oh, that's the exception." It's not. It's real. Christmas comes every single year. So if you celebrate Christmas, if you do the gift thing, then you'd say, "Well, how much do we want to spend on that? Maybe it's $600." So you set aside 50 bucks a month. For all of 2021, you're setting aside 50 bucks a month, and then when Christmas comes, you have $600. Instead of flipping it around and starting to say, "Oh, well, I don't have any money, so I'll just put it on a card and then I'll pay that down," think about it this way, Bobbi. It's always you and future you that are sitting there with the pile of money. Future you needs to have a voice at the table.

Jesse Mecham:
If you think about the debt situation that you asked me about earlier, when you say someone's like, "Oh, we'll put that on a payment plan. We'll put this on a payment plan. That's the name of the game," that person, that company is thinking about future them. They're like, "Oh, man, it'd be great if you'd finance this car. Absolutely. It'd be great for us." They're totally thinking about future them, future quarterly earnings things for shareholders, future bank balance. I mean, they're all over the future. Then you have the person that signs it away saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that note for this car." They're not thinking about the future. I'm trying to flip that around. I'm trying to have people think about their future and position themselves to be future-oriented, where then they're making decisions with both of you in mind, future Bobbi, present Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and it's hard, because the truth is one of the things that worries a lot of us right now is that things like you talk about a car, car loans are getting longer and longer in term to make the payments look lower, but ultimately, you're paying more, and it's over your head for a very long time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're orienting where they know. Well, don't even look at the repo situation. I mean, how many times people will get cars repossessed, and the same car will get repossessed five times. There is someone making money in that scenario, and it's not the person driving the car. So that seven-year note that you see on cars now, they used to be three, then five. Now they're seven. All that is is an evolution of the financing of that GM, Ford. Every car company makes most of their money, most of their profits from the financing side of this, not from the manufacture of the car. They're putting it out to seven years because they know that future Toyota, future Honda, no knock on any of the companies, but they are future- and profit-oriented, and people that are buying the car are now-oriented.

Jesse Mecham:
That's where we have to just try and get that shift to happen. So you start paying yourself a car payment, saving up cash for it over time. It might mean that you buy a car that's beneath you for a little while, but then you trade up over time and you start paying cash for that. You get out of that car payment trap. It's not a given.

Bobbi Rebell:
Or you don't trade up. A lot of really wealthy people drive really crummy cars.

Jesse Mecham:
It is absolutely. Yeah. They're hiding in plain sight.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. One final tip. What does it mean to age your money?

Jesse Mecham:
So we're essentially talking about if you were to earn a dollar today that it would be 30 to 60 days before you actually spent that dollar. So when a dollar enters your system, the clock starts ticking, and that dollar starts getting older and older and older. Right now, most people that are living paycheck to paycheck, they are spending dollars. I mean, they have a pile of bills just waiting for money to land, and we want to flip that around. We want to have a pile of money where bills come and land and you're like, "Oh, okay, I've got the money here set aside."

Jesse Mecham:
If you follow our first three rules, which we talk about ad nauseum, if you follow our first three rules, that fourth rule where you start to spend money that's a little older, a little older, a little older, it almost just happens automatically. It's a way to step back from the financial edge. You sleep better. You can talk more effectively about money with your partner because the stress levels are much lower. You make better decisions because of those stress levels being lower. You probably live longer because your stress levels are lower.

Jesse Mecham:
That's the aging your money concept. Spend money that is old. When you think about swiping a card, you actually spend money that ... Well, the metaphor breaks down, but it hasn't even been born yet. You haven't even earned it yet. The shift that we're seeing where companies are paying people for that day, for that shift, and they think that's going to help people break the paycheck to paycheck cycle, that's not going to do it. We're just pushing that can down the road. We have to have people start to orient themselves around thinking a little further ahead.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the way that you are reframing this and the different perspectives that you're giving, because I'm sitting here listening, and my mind is turning. It's so interesting to come at this from a different perspective. So thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find out more about you and about your company?

Jesse Mecham:
You can just go to youneedabudget.com, and we are on all the social stuff. We're even on TikTok, which I don't even understand, but we're there. I personally am not on any of the social stuff. I stay plenty busy not doing that. But you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, all over the place. My podcast is called You Need a Budget as well, and if you loved listening to this silky voice, you can listen to it all you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
So great having you. Thank you.

Jesse Mecham:
Thanks so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's review some of what we learned from Jesse. First of all, it took 17 years for Jesse to get his business where it is now. So be prepared to play the long game with your goals. If you are working from home for the long haul, make sure you create structure to put up guardrails and protect your time so you don't get burned out. Remember, the kids are going back to school. Because kids were home at the same time, remote work was very different during the pandemic. With the kids back in school, it likely will be easier, but make sure to communicate with your family about exactly how things are going to run. Be prepared for abnormal expenses, which are actually kind of routine. We just don't think of it that way. Start putting money aside for unexpected expenses that you know to expect.

Bobbi Rebell:
Consider the future. When you were about to buy something, are you considering future you and how that will impact future you, the decision you make today, right? Break up your money and give every dollar a job to start getting control of your money. Think it through. When you borrow money, like for a car, know that the companies stretch out the length of the loan to make those payments lower. Do the math, but I'm going to bet you probably are going to pay more in the end. Age your money. Try to wait and have money in your account for a period of time before you spend it. It'll take a lot of anxiety out of your life. How do you lower the stress levels when it comes to money? I'd love to hear your ideas. DM me at bobbirebell1, and let me know.

Bobbi Rebell:
A reminder, if you are shopping for gifts, please check out grownupgear.com. I will be eternally grateful for your business. As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to grownupgear.com each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. We could also call it Financial Independence Day, I hope. I don't know. Maybe. There are two ways to enter to win. Take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, and tag me at bobbirebell1. Then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. That's hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter to win a $50 gift card to grownupgear.com is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. So easy, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Grownup Gear, as I like to say, is it's a micro business. We really do need and appreciate all of your support, so check it out and, of course, tell your friends. Big thanks to Jesse Mecham of You Need a Budget for helping us lower our stress levels and be our best financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup, the podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free. But I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, StartupBobbi Rebell KaufmanJune 22, 2021You Need A Budget, YNAB, Budgeting, Budget, Money Tips

Money tips on how to spend like a grownup with Financial Therapist George Blount

After being stuck at home for more than a year, many of us are ready to spend! This week’s Financial Grownup Dr. George Blount says that’s actually ok. But there’s some important strategies to keep us out of trouble when we hit that “buy” button.

George’s Money Tips

George Blount:
I'm a financial therapist. I means I help people with their emotional relationship with money, and that usually takes place in a few aspects. There are five areas of financial health and that's the economic, the relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional elements of financial health and I try to help individuals with each of those. The economic is the most common one that is primarily products and services or processes that people are used to. The parts that people are not as familiar with, or delving deeper into your financial behavior kind of some of the feelings that you have, the psychological aspects of money, or maybe the emotional response that you have the money. So I try to delve deeper into those aspects.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper now. Let's talk about spending habits and ways to improve them. What are your top tips for that to begin with? And then we'll get back into the emotional things and the economic stuff that you were talking about.

George Blount:
Yeah. Some of the things that are going to be helpful to at least curb your spending are first and foremost, putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase. So if you have a reason, or if you have a goal that you're aligning some of your spending to, it makes it easier for you to be aware of the spending, one, it also allows you to have a timeframe on what is an appropriate amount of spending and then what's an appropriate time to enjoy that spending and sort of really just allows you to have a better understanding.

George Blount:
The second thing I would say is the pace. We just have to understand that you don't always have to spend money right away. So as you come up with these decisions, or as you have an opportunity to spend really think about it, take a little bit of time before you make that decision and then you move forward. So having a purpose to your purchases, and then think about the pace that you have in your spending as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming out of the pandemic a lot of us feel whether we're aware of it or not, this urge to splurge, we call it revenge spending. How do you manage that? What do you do? Because we've had this pent up, we've literally been pent up, I should say, for so long that I don't know, we feel like we deserve it. Right?

George Blount:
So it's important to look at it as not a zero sum game. There are some things that are bad habits that were formed throughout this period of time, but then there are also some good things that happen throughout this period of time. So you can look back and say, "Okay, I have improved in these areas. I've saved in this part of my spending," or, "I improved my saving in this area. So that's something that I want to hold on to, and this is something that I'm doing that that I really don't want to hold onto. It's a poor habit and I need to get rid of it."

George Blount:
So really comparing and contrasting some of the good things and bad things that you have learned, and then making a choice that the mindful spending is really about presenting yourself with viable alternatives and then selecting the appropriate choice for you. So that when you're spending isn't based on regret or some type of emotional element, but where it's based on achieving a goal and based on some type of alignment to an objective that is going to serve well for the longer term.

Bobbi Rebell:
What role does peer pressure play in our spending, especially now when other people are telling us we deserve certain things?

George-Blount-Twitter-Quote-#1-nbalance-financial.png

George Blount:
Yeah. It takes a large part of our brain capacity to really hear what everybody else is saying. So it's a really significant part of what we deal with. Peer pressure is something that allows us to exacerbate some of our bad spending. Maybe it amplifies or validate some of our good behaviors, but let's just talk about the negative side of it, because that's what we see. People in general don't need a lot of people to tell them what to do. In fact, we trust information from a very small number of people. So if we hear a couple of things from a small number of people that we may trust, or that we believe in, we take it to heart.

George Blount:
So sometimes if it may not be well-informed financial decisions, or it may be more of an opinion that someone has based on their previous experience as opposed to an educational opportunity, then it really is a negative effect of peer pressure. So we need to try to avoid that because it's pretty popular and we should probably convert it to some of the other forms, which is maybe listen to your professors or, or some of the journalist, or maybe the contextual way that some individuals can allow conversations to make sense. That's good peer pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any specific suggestions to combat that when someone say, "Oh, you haven't bought anything in this long. Just get it."

George Blount:
I think I would always recommend there's a simulation that you can play. It's a playspent.org, playS-P-E-N-T.org. And what it is, it's just a simulation on trying to balance out your spending and it takes about five minutes or so to go through. But go through that exercise and it is a hypothetical simulation of whether or not you could save money in a month and what types of activities may come in throughout the month that can deter your spending or deter your savings. And that single perspective is often really good and allowing people to understand just the randomness that life presents when it comes to our financial decisions, our financial purchases, or where we need to save.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some red flags to look for?

George Blount:
Red flags I think normally will come from things that you don't feel well about. When I talk to individuals and I say, "I help people with their emotional relationship with money." Some people don't know what that emotional relationship is. It's hard to describe, you can't go into it and we have to go through this mode of discovery. Some people understand it very well. And some people know that there are bad influences on their spending, where they're spending to make themselves feel better, or they're doing things that they know that they just don't want to do. So if you subconsciously know that, or even if you are overtly saying that that would be a red flag.

Bobbi Rebell:
And a lot of people became more comfortable online shopping than ever during the pandemic. What can we do to make sure that we're not overspending in terms of online?

George Blount:
Limiting the exposure to your phone, your screen time, similar to the way that you would with social media and you take a fast or you take a little break, you have to do the same thing with the shopping apps that are on your phone. You can remove them, you can take a break from them, nothing to look at them. I think the more we are away from it, it's a little bit easier.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about also subscribing to newsletters, websites, store cards, that kind of stuff?

George Blount:
Yeah. I think as long as it is serving a purpose. Again, you have this a situation where you're looking at information that is going to allow you to one way or another, make a purchase that satisfies your need or not. So if it's purposeful, then by all means go right ahead. But if it's not, I think that's where there's a problem. So just giving yourself better alternatives is always going to be the approach that I would recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

George-Blount-Twitter-Quote-#3-nbalance-financial.png

George Blount:
Yeah, I would just add two things to think. The first one is that as you mentioned, I think more people have become more comfortable shopping online. I think more people, they've gotten a lot better at seeking help out. So maybe it is not always been seen as appropriate to seek out therapy when it comes to your financial decisions, but that is something that is very possible as well. I think the second thing is you can always look at trusted sources like mymoney.gov, For places that will give you great information on how you should spend, how you should save and terms that are incredibly important. And that's free websites that are accessible to everybody.

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grown-up for 15% off, your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

George Blount:
Putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we've got this. Hello grownups, feeling the urge to splurge these days? Maybe a little revenge spending after over a year of basically being stuck at home. That is totally normal and probably okay. A little, as long as you follow the rules you are going to hear from this week's guest financial therapist, Dr. George Blount, Managing Partner at nBalance Financial. Dr. Blount works with individuals on financial matters, but with a special focus on the emotional, behavioral and psychological elements that impact their financial decisions. In our interview, Dr. Blount walks us through the five areas of financial health, and then we're going to get into his money tips and how we can all still enjoy spending and even splurging without derailing our goals. Here is Dr. George Blount. Dr. George Blount, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

George Blount:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. Pleasure to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am excited to have you on, you're going to be sharing your tips to improve our spending habits. But before we do that, I introduced you as Dr. George Blount. You're a financial therapist, tell us about that.

George Blount:
Yep. So I'm a financial therapist. I means I help people with their emotional relationship with money, and that usually takes place in a few aspects. There are five areas of financial health and that's the economic, the relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional elements of financial health and I try to help individuals with each of those. The economic is the most common one that is primarily products and services or processes that people are used to. The parts that people are not as familiar with, or delving deeper into your financial behavior kind of some of the feelings that you have, the psychological aspects of money, or maybe the emotional response that you have the money. So I try to delve deeper into those aspects.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper now. Let's talk about spending habits and ways to improve them. What are your top tips for that to begin with? And then we'll get back into the emotional things and the economic stuff that you were talking about.

George Blount:
Yeah. Some of the things that are going to be helpful to at least curb your spending are first and foremost, putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase. So if you have a reason, or if you have a goal that you're aligning some of your spending to, it makes it easier for you to be aware of the spending, one, it also allows you to have a timeframe on what is an appropriate amount of spending and then what's an appropriate time to enjoy that spending and sort of really just allows you to have a better understanding.

George Blount:
The second thing I would say is the pace. We just have to understand that you don't always have to spend money right away. So as you come up with these decisions, or as you have an opportunity to spend really think about it, take a little bit of time before you make that decision and then you move forward. So having a purpose to your purchases, and then think about the pace that you have in your spending as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming out of the pandemic a lot of us feel whether we're aware of it or not, this urge to splurge, we call it revenge spending. How do you manage that? What do you do? Because we've had this pent up, we've literally been pent up, I should say, for so long that I don't know, we feel like we deserve it. Right?

George Blount:
So it's important to look at it as not a zero sum game. There are some things that are bad habits that were formed throughout this period of time, but then there are also some good things that happen throughout this period of time. So you can look back and say, "Okay, I have improved in these areas. I've saved in this part of my spending," or, "I improved my saving in this area. So that's something that I want to hold on to, and this is something that I'm doing that that I really don't want to hold onto. It's a poor habit and I need to get rid of it."

George Blount:
So really comparing and contrasting some of the good things and bad things that you have learned, and then making a choice that the mindful spending is really about presenting yourself with viable alternatives and then selecting the appropriate choice for you. So that when you're spending isn't based on regret or some type of emotional element, but where it's based on achieving a goal and based on some type of alignment to an objective that is going to serve well for the longer term.

Bobbi Rebell:
What role does peer pressure play in our spending, especially now when other people are telling us we deserve certain things?

George Blount:
Yeah. It takes a large part of our brain capacity to really hear what everybody else is saying. So it's a really significant part of what we deal with. Peer pressure is something that allows us to exacerbate some of our bad spending. Maybe it amplifies or validate some of our good behaviors, but let's just talk about the negative side of it, because that's what we see. People in general don't need a lot of people to tell them what to do. In fact, we trust information from a very small number of people. So if we hear a couple of things from a small number of people that we may trust, or that we believe in, we take it to heart.

George Blount:
So sometimes if it may not be well-informed financial decisions, or it may be more of an opinion that someone has based on their previous experience as opposed to an educational opportunity, then it really is a negative effect of peer pressure. So we need to try to avoid that because it's pretty popular and we should probably convert it to some of the other forms, which is maybe listen to your professors or, or some of the journalist, or maybe the contextual way that some individuals can allow conversations to make sense. That's good peer pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any specific suggestions to combat that when someone say, "Oh, you haven't bought anything in this long. Just get it."

George Blount:
I think I would always recommend there's a simulation that you can play. It's a playspent.org, playS-P-E-N-T.org. And what it is, it's just a simulation on trying to balance out your spending and it takes about five minutes or so to go through. But go through that exercise and it is a hypothetical simulation of whether or not you could save money in a month and what types of activities may come in throughout the month that can deter your spending or deter your savings. And that single perspective is often really good and allowing people to understand just the randomness that life presents when it comes to our financial decisions, our financial purchases, or where we need to save.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some red flags to look for?

George Blount:
Red flags I think normally will come from things that you don't feel well about. When I talk to individuals and I say, "I help people with their emotional relationship with money." Some people don't know what that emotional relationship is. It's hard to describe, you can't go into it and we have to go through this mode of discovery. Some people understand it very well. And some people know that there are bad influences on their spending, where they're spending to make themselves feel better, or they're doing things that they know that they just don't want to do. So if you subconsciously know that, or even if you are overtly saying that that would be a red flag.

Bobbi Rebell:
And a lot of people became more comfortable online shopping than ever during the pandemic. What can we do to make sure that we're not overspending in terms of online?

George Blount:
Limiting the exposure to your phone, your screen time, similar to the way that you would with social media and you take a fast or you take a little break, you have to do the same thing with the shopping apps that are on your phone. You can remove them, you can take a break from them, nothing to look at them. I think the more we are away from it, it's a little bit easier.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about also subscribing to newsletters, websites, store cards, that kind of stuff?

George Blount:
Yeah. I think as long as it is serving a purpose. Again, you have this a situation where you're looking at information that is going to allow you to one way or another, make a purchase that satisfies your need or not. So if it's purposeful, then by all means go right ahead. But if it's not, I think that's where there's a problem. So just giving yourself better alternatives is always going to be the approach that I would recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

George Blount:
Yeah, I would just add two things to think. The first one is that as you mentioned, I think more people have become more comfortable shopping online. I think more people, they've gotten a lot better at seeking help out. So maybe it is not always been seen as appropriate to seek out therapy when it comes to your financial decisions, but that is something that is very possible as well. I think the second thing is you can always look at trusted sources like mymoney.gov, For places that will give you great information on how you should spend, how you should save and terms that are incredibly important. And that's free websites that are accessible to everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Where can people find out more about you and be in touch?

George Blount:
Absolutely. So they can go to my website, which is nbalancefinancial.com. And that's N-B-L-A-N-C-E, that's nbalancefinancial.com. And they can always get in touch with me directly through that site. I'm located in Boston, but servicing all throughout the US through this virtual environment.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

George Blount:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. It's just been such a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's review some of Dr. Blount's money tips. First of all, there are five areas of financial health, economic, relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional. To curb your spending, put a goal in front of you, a purpose to your purchase. Watch out for negative peer pressure and make sure to include vetted third party information when you're making big money decisions. Take a break, not just from social media, which pushes those shopping ads, but also from those shopping apps on your phone. It may not be something that you think of naturally, but there is a lot of emotion and psychology in our financial decisions, and it may be worth seeking therapy if you find yourself struggling with your financial situation, especially in these times that are really unprecedented. One thing that is definitely okay to spend the right amount of money on is celebrating life's adulting moments. And the best place of course, to get those gifts is at grownupgear.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you haven't checked it out yet, take a look. We have the perfect gift for all of those adulting celebrations, those adulting milestones that we celebrate from graduations, to engagements, bridal showers, new homes, birthdays, becoming new parents, all those good things. As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to grown-up gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. And maybe we can also call it financial independence day. I don't know. Anyway, there are two ways to enter to win. Way number one is to take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, tag me @bobbirebell1. And then also this is key, email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. That's hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot, and then send that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Growing up here is what we like to call a micro business, and we really do and appreciate all of your support. So please check it out and tell your friends. We also appreciated Dr. George Blount for helping us all be financial grownups. Money tips for financial grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Advice, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal FinanceBobbi Rebell KaufmanJune 15, 2021nBalance, nBalance Financial, Financial Grownup, Spending, Money Tips, Financial Therapist, George Blount

How to make $10,000 in 10 days with author and entrepreneur Rachel Rodgers

Main Insta- Rachel Rodgers ceo hello 7 we should all be millionaires (1).png

Rachel Rodgers is back! She has a new book "We Should All Be Millionaires" plus why broken kitchen cabinets drive her nuts and why she is throwing out her “shitty bras”. Rachel also updates us on the Rodgers Ranch and her company Hello Seven.

Rachel’s Tips

Tip #1- We have this thing where we want to be liked. Every human wants to be liked, this is not unique to women, but our culture has created this situation where women think they need to be nice and they need to be liked by all. Let me tell you something, that is a losing game. That desire to be liked really kills your ability to generate more money. I think, we think like, "Oh, if I make a bunch of money, people are not going to like me." You know what? People already don't like you, so who cares? Might as well make some money.

Tip #2- It's just little things like that, where we have shabby conditions around us that make us feel shabby inside. When you wake up and your environment tells you, "You know what? You must be a boss because look at this environment that you're in," guess what? You're going to go out there and you're going to make million-dollar decisions all day, every day. It really shifts your energy when you are in an environment that makes you feel really good.

Twitter Quote #1- Rachel Rodgers ceo hello 7 we should all be millionaires (1).png

Tip #3-Are you surrounding yourself with people who make broke decisions all day? Is your best girlfriend, Brenda, calling you to complain about her job every day, but never does anything to go get a better job or talk to her boss about it or deal with her situation? Or are you surrounded by people who when you say, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this exciting thing. Hey, I'm thinking about buying a house. Hey, I'm thinking about making this money move," they're like, "Ooh, I wouldn't do that," and discouraging you and being very negative about it and making you feel bad about being ambitious? When you have those kinds of people around you all day, trust me, it is affecting your ability to make million-dollar decisions. This is literally nonstop. This is exactly how it works, and there's science to back it up. Harvard studies, where it shows that the people that you spend the most time with, 95% of your success or failure in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish comes from the people you surround yourself with on a daily basis. If you are surrounding yourself with naysayers, people who are negative, people who are not ambitious at all, people who are discouraging, you are going to be discouraged and you're likely not going to make the moves that you want to be making.

Tip #4- Okay, a lot of times we say, "Well, I really want to upgrade my home, but I don't have enough money." One of the sections of the book, what we talk about is can we flip that but to an and? Can we say instead of, "I want to do this thing, but I can't afford it," what if you said, "I want to do this thing and I don't currently have the money." Cool, now that opens up possibilities. It makes you feel like, "Oh, okay. These are the facts of the case. I want to do this thing and I don't have the money right now, but what could I do to change the situation?" I could potentially change it. It creates opportunity. It opens it up, it expands the possibilities. Whereas when you say, "But," it's kind of like it closes the door on that being a possibility, it closes the door on that opportunity. I encourage you to be and people instead of but people. This goes to the peer group. Are you surrounded by people who can say, "Yes, that's true, and what could you do differently? Let's brainstorm some opportunities." Imagine if we had friends who would brainstorm business opportunities, money-making opportunities, networking opportunities with us, instead of talking about everything that's wrong with the world and just complaining all the time and commiserating. We could do that too, but let's make sure that we are also being expansive. If you change your but to and, that might open up some creativity for you to come up with solutions to the financial problems that come up.

Follow Rachel!

Twitter Quote #3- Rachel Rodgers ceo hello 7 we should all be millionaires (1).png

Instagram - @hello7co
Instagram - @therodgersranch
Instagram - @rachrodgersesq
Facebook - @Hello7Co
Facebook - @rachelrodgerslaw
Twitter - @rachrodgersesq
Rachel’s website - www.helloseven.co

Follow Bobbi!

Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

It is officially spring, and that means graduation season is on. We here at the Financial Grownup Podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and the seriously most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts, all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup Gear also makes great gifts for Mother's Day, Father's Day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette parties, birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code GRADUATION for a 15% discount, and thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and we truly appreciate your support.

Rachel Rodgers :

We did a 10K in 10 Days challenge with 350 of our clients. The average was like $6,700 per person, and they, as a group, made $2.4 million in 10 days.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes, my friends, $10,000 in 10 days, do you dare take the challenge? You want to hear about it though, right? Rachel Rodgers is back and the perfect guest for our newly updated format here on Money Tips for Financial Grownups. If you missed the bonus episode, it should be just before this one in your feed, but in short, we're streamlining the show to focus more on money tips to help us all be our best financial grownups. I lost count of all the incredible money tips that Rachel shares in our interview, but you're going to hear ... sound every time she drops one.

Bobbi Rebell:

Rachel, who is the CEO of HelloSeven and runs the Rodgers' Ranch, which you're going to hear about in our interview, has a new book out called We Should All be Millionaires. I read it cover to cover in one sitting and you should too, then you should also go back and make note of all the gems in the book. But first, let's get some extra money tips in our interview. Here is Rachel Rodgers.

Bobbi Rebell:

Rachel Rodgers, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast again, welcome back.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yay, I'm so glad to be back. I'm excited.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, we're celebrating because your book, We Should All be Billionaires: A Woman's Guide to Earning More, Building Wealth, and Gaining Economic Power, is released today, the day that this episode is coming out. Tell us high level about the book and what we can expect.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Well, you can expect some tough love and you can expect a guide to becoming a millionaire, making a million dollars. I think we need that. We shoot for six figures and it's not enough, I don't know if you've noticed. You probably have, because you're a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I live in New York City.

Rachel Rodgers :

Exactly, but I want women to be shooting for seven figures so that we can really make a massive impact. The reality is that 2% of women entrepreneurs ever hit the seven-figure mark, and when it comes to the world's billionaires, very, very few of them are women. I think we need to understand how to earn more, and that's what this book is about. It's not about what to put in your 401k or how to invest, what to do with your money on the backend. No, it's about how to get more of it in the first place.

Bobbi Rebell:

You challenge your clients to come up with a way to make $10,000 in 10 days. Let's just start with the results, and then tell me some of the ways that you could make $10,000 in 10 days.

Rachel Rodgers :

We did a 10K in 10 Days challenge with 350 of our clients, and they, as a group, made $2.4 million in 10 days.

Bobbi Rebell:

What was the average?

Rachel Rodgers :

The average was like $6,700 per person, approximately.

Bobbi Rebell:

Which is incredible.

Rachel Rodgers :

I mean, incredible, right? To me, it's not about the money. It's about the fact that what I'm trying to prove and what I want women to be able to prove to themselves is that you can earn as much as you want, whenever you want. You have the ability to generate cash whenever you need to. I think we have a money problem come up and we're like, "I don't know what I'm going to do. Let me start cutting things and slashing things. Let me start shrinking my life," and I'm like, "I do the opposite." If something comes up and I want to spend money on something, I'm like, "Okay, well, let me think about what are my different ways of earning more and which one am I going to choose? Okay, great. I'm going to choose that one, let me put it out there," and then I earn that money in 30 days or less and then I go do that thing I wanted to do.

Bobbi Rebell:

What are some of the best ways people came up with to earn money?

Rachel Rodgers :

Oh, it was amazing. There were people having yard sales, people were just reaching out to past clients who owed them money and they just hadn't reached out to them and said, "Hey, you owe me money. Hey, you hadn't paid your invoice, can you go ahead and take care of that?" They made all this money from clients that were like six months late, just because they weren't following up. I'm like, "Honey, we need to focus on our money and not let all of those dollars trickle out of our hands." That's what I see happening with women as a whole, and so I'm asking us to hold ourselves accountable to really pay attention to our money.

Rachel Rodgers :

That was some of the things that they did. They launched new programs, they created products. They had ideas for all these different ways that they could make money or they thought like, "Oh, one day maybe I'll do X," and I'm like, "I challenge you to go do X right now," and they would do it. They would launch a new program or launch a product and put it out there. They didn't even have to create the product or the program yet, they could just say, "Hey, this is coming. Would you like one? If you purchase it early, here's what happens. You have 10 days to say, yes, you want it," they buy it and then you have a little bit of time to go create the thing and deliver it.

Bobbi Rebell:

And it's also a proven idea. One of my favorite parts of the book, you say you have three ways that women make bad money decisions. What are the three ways that women make bad money decisions?

Rachel Rodgers :

Well, we have this thing where we want to be liked, it's like every human wants to be liked, this is not unique to women, but our culture has created this situation where women think they need to be nice and they need to be liked by all. Let me tell you something, that is a losing game. That desire to be liked really kills your ability to generate more money. I think, we think like, "Oh, if I make a bunch of money, people are not going to like me." You know what? People already don't like you, so who cares? Might as well make some money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Absolutely. Okay, number two, what was the second thing?

Rachel Rodgers :

Environment. We're in this broke (beep) environment. We have (beep) bras. I literally just bought 12 new bras because we've been in a pandemic and every bra has a busted strap, the wire is broken. I was like, "Honey, get your life together." It was just things like that. One of my clients used to have a cabinet in her kitchen that would not open all the way, and because of that, she had a small little kitchen and so it was all shoved into the other cabinets. Every time she opened her cabinets, all this (beep) falling out. She was just like, "This drives me nuts literally all day, every day," every time she's making coffee, every time she's preparing a meal.

Rachel Rodgers :

It's just little things like that, where we have shabby conditions around us that make us feel shabby inside. When you wake up and your environment tells you, "You know what? You must be a boss because look at this environment that you're in," guess what? You're going to go out there and you're going to make million-dollar decisions all day, every day. It really shifts your energy when you are in an environment that makes you feel really good.

Bobbi Rebell:

And then the third one has to do with who we surround ourselves with, right?

Rachel Rodgers :

Exactly. Are you surrounding yourself with people who make broke (beep) decisions all day? Is your best girlfriend, Brenda, calling you to complain about her job every day, but never does anything to go get a better job or talk to her boss about it or deal with her situation? Or are you surrounded by people who when you say, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this exciting thing. Hey, I'm thinking about buying a house. Hey, I'm thinking about making this money move," they're like, "Ooh, I wouldn't do that," and discouraging you and being very negative about it and making you feel bad about being ambitious? When you have those kinds of people around you all day, trust me, it is affecting your ability to make million-dollar decisions.

Rachel Rodgers :

This is literally nonstop. This is exactly how it works, and there's science to back it up. Harvard studies, where it shows that the people that you spend the most time with, 95% of your success or failure in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish comes from the people you surround yourself with on a daily basis. If you are surrounding yourself with naysayers, people who are negative, people who are not ambitious at all, people who are discouraging, you are going to be discouraged and you're likely not going to make the moves that you want to be making.

Bobbi Rebell:

Another money tip in the book that I love has to do with flipping just one word. Tell us about that.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Okay, a lot of times we say, "Well, I really want to upgrade my home, but I don't have enough money." One of the sections of the book, what we talk about is can we flip that but to an and? Can we say instead of, "I want to do this thing, but I can't afford it," what if you said, "I want to do this thing and I don't currently have the money." Cool, now that opens up possibilities. It makes you feel like, "Oh, okay. These are the facts of the case. I want to do this thing and I don't have the money right now, but what could I do to change the situation?" I could potentially change it. It creates opportunity. It opens it up, it expands the possibilities. Whereas when you say, "But," it's kind of like it closes the door on that being a possibility, it closes the door on that opportunity. I encourage you to be and people instead of but people.

Rachel Rodgers :

This goes to the peer group. Are you surrounded by people who can say, "Yes, that's true, and what could you do differently? Let's brainstorm some opportunities." Imagine if we had friends who would brainstorm business opportunities, money-making opportunities, networking opportunities with us, instead of talking about everything that's wrong with the world and just complaining all the time and commiserating. We could do that too, but let's make sure that we are also being expansive. If you change your but to and, that might open up some creativity for you to come up with solutions to the financial problems that come up.

Bobbi Rebell:

Changing the way that you frame how you see things, so important. You also talk about taking certain tests to figure out basically where your talent is, where you're most likely to be the most successful.

Rachel Rodgers :

One of the things that we recommend is that we do an assessment, a skills assessment, to see what skills have I acquired over the years, what are my natural talents and gifts and strengths, what am I naturally good at, what do people come to me all the time to ask me for, where you can start to really hone in on the way that you add value in the world and then how can you capitalize on that skill, how can you start charging for that service, or how can you create a product based on that skillset that can increase your earning potential.

Bobbi Rebell:

And there are specific tests you recommend.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes, exactly. You can take StrengthsFinders, Kolbe, DiSC. There's also a great book called The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. Each one of these will help you assess for yourself where your natural talents and skills lie, and so you can figure out where is my money-making potential.

Bobbi Rebell:

You were waiting for a client's check.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you needed that money. It's very relatable in the last year, because we all learned how important having that cash cushion, whether you label it as an emergency fund or just savings, whatever it may be, you were in a precarious position waiting on money to come in. Tell us what you needed the money for, what was going on, and how it was resolved.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. This was years ago, I was probably two years into building my business. I was pregnant with my son, my daughter was one years old. I was trying to put her in daycare. I was working from home, my husband was in school at the time. My child had been home with us for a full year, there was zero childcare. My child was with her father or me or both of us for the whole first year of her life. I'm trying to grow a law practice, so I needed childcare, and searched for the right childcare, found a great place and her spot came up on the wait list. I'm like, "Great." Now, I'm waiting for this corporate check to come from a client. This was one of my first corporate clients and it was a big check for $5,000, which was the most money that I had ever received at one time in my life at the time.

Rachel Rodgers :

I'm waiting for months for this check to come, because we all know corporations, sometimes it's like net 30. I mean, they just pay you when they feel like it, basically. Three, four months later, finally the check shows up, I go to the bank to deposit, I'm like, "Thank God, I'm going to deposit this check and then immediately write a check for the daycare and go drop that off so that I can hold her spot," because it was like the last day to reserve her spot. I get to the bank, I deposit it, I'm all giddy and excited. I mean, I'm in my sweats, looking like crap, but who cares, I got money so I'm happy. I go to deposit it and the bank teller says, "Great, that'll be a two-week hold," and I'm like, "Pardon me? What?" I'm whispering to her because I don't want the other people in the bank to hear me and I'm like, "Is there any way you can make that available like today?" and she's like, "Nope, I can't because it's an out-of-state check."

Rachel Rodgers :

She sent me to go talk to the branch manager. I go talk to the branch manager, who's an older white guy. Here I am in my sweats looking like a broke (beep) college student and not a trustworthy professional. I go and talk to him and tell him I need the money right away. My face is getting red and I'm just absolutely mortified to be an attorney who has to go beg the branch manager to make her money available right away. It was a good wake up call. I was watching the branch manager and another banker looking at their monitor, I could tell they're scrolling through my account, looking at all my purchases. I'm sitting there and I'm feeling the hot tears come, my face is all red. As I sat there, I just had this moment where I was like, "Never again. This is my fault that I'm here right now and it will never, ever happen again."

Rachel Rodgers :

Luckily, they did release the check, I was able to put my daughter in childcare. That year I took that business from $60,000 a year to $300,000, so 5X'd my revenue, because I got focused because I realized the money was on me. Somebody else isn't going to make that money for me, it's not going to manifest out of thin air, and it's nobody's fault necessarily. Yes, there are systemic things at play. There is racism and sexism at play for sure, and at the same time, I also have a choice in the matter and there's also decisions that I'm making on a daily basis. I held myself to being a financial grownup, and that year, I really grew up and made a lot more money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Just one of the many, many incredible and inspiring stories in your new book. Tell us, we know the book is available everywhere, what else should people be looking out for from you? I know you have a course associated with the book and a lot more going on at the Rodgers' Ranch and so on. Tell us.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Lord, I seem to have way too much going on. We have a podcast called the HelloSeven Podcast. We're always interviewing women, definitely women of color, who are making seven figures or more, because again, I like to provide my clients with evidence.

Bobbi Rebell:

And the Rodgers' Ranch, what's going on there?

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes, we have been fixing it up. It's so funny, my children are right outside my window. My little cottage is right next to the arena where we do horse training and lessons and stuff. My kids are out there right now, riding horses. Yeah, we're crazy up in here. We've also been renovating our retreat house. We're going to be opening up to be able to offer our retreat house up to people who want to come and have a little equestrian getaway here in North Carolina, in the next couple of weeks, so that's really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you have social handles for all these things, right?

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. We are @therodgersranch, Rodgers with a D, on Instagram. Then my personal Instagram is @rachrodgersesq, and you can follow my company, HelloSeven, @hello7co.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much for coming back to the show.

Rachel Rodgers :

Thank you for having me. I love talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, let's review some of the key money tips that Rachel gave us. First of all, aim high. Rachel is all about seven figures, not six. Having high goals is a win-win. If you reach it, you win, but if you get closer than you would have with a lower goal, you also are better off and you still have more room to grow, win. One of the easiest ways to make money is to collect the money that you are owed receivables matter, get them settled. Sell before you create, that way you prove the concept and you have built in pre-orders when you do launch. Just be careful to manage timeline expectations for when customers will get the product.

Bobbi Rebell:

Get over getting everyone to like you and choose who you spend your time with very carefully. Be a friend, be a business colleague, do not be a therapist, unless of course you are a therapist. Make the effort to create a work environment where you will be your most productive. People are shocked that I wrote most of my book, How to Be a Financial Grownup, at a big ugly Formica table under bright lights at the Whole Foods across the street from my apartment. But you know what? There were no distractions and there was great wifi, it worked. Try to experiment a bit and find what works for you. And take a skills assessment test. We'll have the links to the ones Rachel suggested in the show notes.

Bobbi Rebell:

Friends, there is also a companion course to Rachel's book. You can find out more on her website, which we will also have linked in the show notes. Let me know how you guys liked the updated format. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and get more money tips by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and signing up for our now weekly Money Tips newsletter. Big thanks to Rachel Rodgers for coming back and sharing her money tips for financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Saven is our talent coordinator and content creators, so yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com, and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts, it only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Follow Rachel!

Instagram - @hello7co
Instagram - @therodgersranch
Instagram - @rachrodgersesq
Facebook - @Hello7Co
Facebook - @rachelrodgerslaw
Twitter - @rachrodgersesq
Rachel’s website - www.helloseven.co

Follow Bobbi!

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Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Advice, Authors, Entrepreneurs, Millennial Superstars, Money, Personal Finance, Productivity, Role Models, Shopping, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest UserMay 4, 2021Rachel Rodgers, ceo hello 7, money tips for financial grownups

Public money shame at the grocery story with Mom’s Got Money Author Catherine Alford

Main Insta- Catherine Alford- author and personal finance expert (1).png

Catherine Alford did everything right as she got ready to start a family with her medical student husband. But the unexpected and financially devastating cost of her newborn twins forced her to make some tough choices, that have changed her whole view of the world. Plus- her top negotiating tip and a preview of her new book Moms Got Money: A Millennial Mom’s Guide to Managing Money Like a Boss.

Catherine’s Money Story-

Before I became self-employed, before I gave birth to twins in 2014, I had chronicled my whole plan to become self-employed, super motivating. I saved this $10,000 baby fund. I saved all this money because I knew we'd have to move shortly after having the kids. I kept showing everyone the side hustles of this, the building up, so I was very organized and prepared which is sort of my way with money. But after I had the twins, after we moved, all of those things, having preemie twins, having some health problems with them, it pretty much drained everything I had saved and announced to thousands of people in the world on my blog that I had saved. And the twins needed this specialty formula, expensive formul. I told my pediatrician, "I don't know if I can afford it." It was like, $50 a can or something. And my husband was a student at the time, so it was just me, big time, brand new entrepreneur, mom of twins. I got this, and I did not have it. And so the pediatrician said, "Well, you can use this program called WIC which is for low-income mothers. It provides food and other things to make sure that mom and baby are well-nourished." I went and got them. And I didn't tell anybody because I felt such shame. I just felt like I was supposed to be this person helping other people with their savings, and I was supposed to be this motivating person. And I felt so ashamed that I couldn't buy this formula. And what made it worse is that I get the check. I've got these two babies with me in the grocery store, and I find the formula, do the whole thing, and the checkout lady is looking at the check, "What is this? I'm so nervous. I'm already feeling such shame. Got the two babies. I'm like, "It's a WIC check. You use it, and then I take the formula." She's like, "We've never seen one of these before. No one uses these at this store, and I don't know what to do." And so she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." And in that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids get so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store. So I start crying. The kids start crying. The manager comes over. We all made it to the car. All of us cried the whole way home, babies, me. And I think that was probably the lowest point for me, and my kids just turned seven. So it took me six or seven years to actually share that with the public.

Insta Quote #2 - Catherine Alford Personal Finance Expert and Author.png

Catherine’s Money Lesson-

I think the biggest lesson is even in those bleakest kind of bottom moments, don't give up. There can always be a comeback story. I could've asked for help. I have a whole chapter on the importance of vulnerability and telling people when you need help and even being vulnerable and sharing your successes with people too. But I am stubborn and super independent. I really wanted to make it on my own, wanted the business to work. And it just felt like such a failure for me, but I could have easily asked for help from a family member, from somebody, but I didn't. And I wanted to make myself suffer as if it was my fault, even though I had done everything right. So the experience really fueled me. I was like, "I don't want to do this again. I don't want to go through this again." So I really doubled down on my business after that. And by the time my kids were three, I was earning six figures for my business, and things got better from there. But it was really that moment that was like, "Look, we can't mess around with this business. Girl, you got sit down. You got to get going on this because we can't be in this checkout line again like this."

Buy your copy of Mom’s Got Money now!

Check out millennialhomeowner.com , a website to help millennial’s on their journey to buy a house. (Catherine’s on the team!)

Follow Catherine!

Twitter Quote #1- Catherine Alford Personal Finance Expert and Author.png

Follow Bobbi!

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Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

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Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.
Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell :

I was watching this interview the other day with Nick Jonas. He was promoting his upcoming album and telling everyone about how he learned to make these cool designs in his homemade cappuccinos. And by the way, based on the picture that they showed, he's actually pretty good at it.

Bobbi Rebell :

And then he broke character. You could just see the change in his body language and his voice as he got honest. Nick Jonas says he is just so bored, and you know what? I believe him. I am too. I don't know. How about you? I would love to come in here and say that I have some magical solution. Sorry, but at least I can try to get all of us to break down our walls a little bit like Nick and maybe have a little laugh at everything?

Bobbi Rebell :

We take being a grownup really seriously, and that's for all good reasons, but we also need a break. And we need to give our friends and family a break.

Bobbi Rebell :

Grownup Gear is perfect for that. Who doesn't need a pillow that says, "You had me a debt free" with an adorable pig wearing shades. And let's be honest. A sweatshirt reading, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either" is really what we're all thinking.

Bobbi Rebell :

You can see more designs at grownupgear.com or on my website, bobbirebell.com. The merch makes great gifts for everything from graduations, engagements, bachelor and bachelorette parties, bridal showers, Mother's Day, Father's Day, and the most important holiday of all, today because we're all still here living our lives the best we can in spite of all the things.

Bobbi Rebell :

Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes, and thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Catherine Alford :

So she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." In that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids gets so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store.

Catherine Alford :

I start crying. The kids start crying. All of us cried the whole way home.

Bobbi Rebell :

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, but you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hello, my grownup friends. The title of this episode is Public Money Shame at the Grocery Store.

Bobbi Rebell :

Now at first glance, you might think I was talking about guest, Mom's Got Money author, Catherine Alford. But the title doesn't refer to Catherine. It's actually meant to point to the dad who judged her, standing behind her at the grocery store, knowing nothing about her or her situation. Shame on him because Katherine's newborn twins were preemies. She needed a special formula that was crazy expensive. And so, yes, she needed help. And she had the humility and frankly, the common sense as someone responsible for two tiny humans to get the babies the help they needed, even if it meant asking for help.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'll leave it to Catherine to share more in our interview, and I'll be back with some very strong feelings about this other person later.

Bobbi Rebell :

But first, a quick check-in. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Financial Grownup. We share stories from accomplished financial grownups and the lessons from them, and then we wrap things up with the money tip we can all put to work to live a richer life.

Bobbi Rebell :

When I met Catherine for the first time in 2016, my book had just come out, and she asked me for advice because she had an idea for a book. Her twins were, I would guess, about two years old, and now they're seven. And she has published that book. I'm so truly and deeply proud of this woman, having witnessed just a fraction of what she's experienced and is now sharing.

Bobbi Rebell :

And for the non-moms out there, invest the time to listen to this story because as I said a few moments ago, the story isn't so much about Catherine. It's about all of us, including that dad who couldn't hit pause for just a moment to see the human being right in front of him and the money struggles that we choose not to see.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'm so grateful Catherine shared her story. Here is Mom's Got Money author, Catherine.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hello, Catherine Alford, my friend. You are a Financial Grownup. Welcome.

Catherine Alford :

Thanks for having me, Bobbi. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell :

I am excited to share more about your new book, Mom's Got Money: A Millennial Mom's Guide to Managing Money like a Boss. Congrats on the book.

Catherine Alford :

Thank you so much. Been a long time coming, as you know.

Bobbi Rebell :

I do know. And I want to first do your money story. We'll get back to more about the book, but the money story I've asked you to talk about is from the book. And you're going to elaborate a little bit on it here, but I hope people will go back and read the full story in the book.

Bobbi Rebell :

It's a topic that is really uncomfortable. Very few people want to talk about, but we should because, I'm just going to guess, it's probably more common in different ways than any of us want to admit in public to the world, and you were very brave to do so.

Bobbi Rebell :

Tell us your money story, Catherine.

Catherine Alford :

Sure. Well, before I became self-employed, before I gave birth to twins in 2014, I had chronicled my whole plan to become self-employed, super motivating. I saved this $10,000 baby fund. I saved all this money because I knew we'd have to move shortly after having the kids. I kept showing everyone the side hustles of this, the building up, so I was very organized and prepared which is sort of my way with money.

Catherine Alford :

But after I had the twins, after we moved, all of those things, having preemie twins, having some health problems with them, it pretty much drained everything I had saved and announced to thousands of people in the world on my blog that I had saved. And the twins needed this specialty formula, expensive formula reflux, blah, blah, blah.

Catherine Alford :

I told my pediatrician, "I don't know if I can afford it." It was like, I don't know, $50 a can or something. And my husband was a student at the time, so it was just me, big time, brand new entrepreneur, mom of twins. I got this, and I did not have it.

Catherine Alford :

And so the pediatrician said, "Well, you can use this program called WIC which is for low-income mothers. It provides food and other things to make sure that mom and baby are well-nourished." I went and got them. And I didn't tell anybody because I felt such shame. I just felt like I was supposed to be this person helping other people with their savings, and I was supposed to be this motivating person. And I felt so ashamed that I couldn't buy this formula.

Catherine Alford :

And what made it worse is that I get the check. I've got these two babies with me in the grocery store, and I find the formula, do the whole thing, and the checkout lady is looking at the check, "What is this? I'm so nervous. I'm already feeling such shame. Got the two babies. I'm like, "It's a WIC check. You use it, and then I take the formula." She's like, "We've never seen one of these before. No one uses these at this store, and I don't know what to do."

Catherine Alford :

And so she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." And in that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids get so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store.

Catherine Alford :

So I start crying. The kids start crying. The manager comes over. We all made it to the car. All of us cried the whole way home, babies, me. And I think that was probably the lowest point for me, and my kids just turned seven. So it took me six or seven years to actually share that with the public.

Catherine Alford :

But that one made it in the book. It's still the one story in the whole book that gets me every time. I go right back there to the intercom every time I read that.

Bobbi Rebell :

What's the lesson from that? I mean, there are so many. There are so many lessons, I don't know where to begin. For you, for our listeners, what is the biggest lesson, I guess?

Catherine Alford :

I think the biggest lesson is even in those bleakest kind of bottom moments, don't give up. There can always be a comeback story. I mean, I could've asked for help. I mean, I have a whole chapter on the importance of vulnerability and telling people when you need help and even telling... being vulnerable and sharing your successes with people too.

Catherine Alford :

But I am stubborn, super independent. I really wanted to make it on my own, wanted the business to work. And it just felt like such a failure for me, but I could have easily asked for help from a family member, from somebody, but I didn't. And I wanted to make myself suffer as if it was my fault, even though I had done everything right.

Catherine Alford :

So the experience really fueled me. I was like, "I don't want to do this again. I don't want to go through this again." So I really doubled down on my business after that. And by the time my kids were three, I was earning six figures for my business, and things got better from there. But it was really that moment that was like, "Look, we can't mess around with this business. Girl, you got sit down. You got to get going on this because we can't be in this checkout line again like this."

Bobbi Rebell :

How did it affect your view of people that you now see that need help?

Catherine Alford :

So much compassion, and I have so much empathy. You just... you never really know what someone is going through. And I'm actually grateful for the experience because I think I have a lot more compassion.

Catherine Alford :

I actually... I tried to buy two cans of formula for a mom behind me in line. I like really want to do this now. It was funny because I was finishing checking out, and the mom behind me had two cans of formula. I'm like, "I'll take her formula too." And she said, "Oh no, I'm buying it with WIC. Don't worry about it." And I was like, "I know about that. I used that with my twins." And I always try to help moms when I see formula on their checkout line instead of leave like the dad behind me.

Catherine Alford :

So I think even really successful people have these down moments, especially in our industry and the kind of jobs we do. We don't really like to talk about the bad stuff. Educators about personal finance talk about all the good stuff. All you see is the million dollar business. Even when you've had a lot of good runs, you can still have the bad moment and come back from it.

Bobbi Rebell :

And we learned a lot about that in the pandemic. Many people just lost clients overnight, or the clients hit pause, and there was so much uncertainty in what we do and in what so many people do. Thank you for sharing that.

Bobbi Rebell :

Let's move on to your money tip because this has to do with valuing yourself, and it particularly applies to moms in the context of your book, but it really could apply to so many people that do things that aren't necessarily valued for what they should be.

Bobbi Rebell :

What is your money tip?

Catherine Alford :

Well, this one is for all the mamas out there. I really like to encourage moms to know their approximate hourly rate. As moms, we feel so guilty. All of us know we need help. We need Mary Poppins. We [inaudible 00:12:02] fairy godmother. We all need so much help. But we resist. We're like, "We don't really need the housekeeper. Do we really need a babysitter for that thing? I could just take the kids to my hair appointment."

Catherine Alford :

It's like, "No, you need to know your hourly rate so that you can eliminate that guilt about outsourcing." As long as you make more per hour than what you're paying the person helping you, then there should be no guilt. If you're a stay-at-home mom, you could maybe do a little side hustle or something to help you out, or if you're a working mom, make sure you calculate that rate, and that way you, don't have any guilt.

Bobbi Rebell :

Fun fact, LinkedIn recently added Stay-at-Home Mom as a job category.

Catherine Alford :

I saw that. That's cool.

Bobbi Rebell :

Why so long?

Bobbi Rebell :

Anyway, I want to talk about your book, Mom's Got Money: A Millennial Mom's Guide to Managing Money Like a Boss, and I'm going to put you on the spot. In the book, you talk about cringe-worthy purchases when you advise moms to go and look at things that are maybe not necessarily needed in terms of the things that they spend money on.

Bobbi Rebell :

What is your most cringe-worthy purchase, Catherine Alford?

Catherine Alford :

I remember when I first started running ads from Facebook for my business really early on in my business, I pretty much did not have the money to spend, or it was most of what I had earned that month. And I remember spending almost $1,000 on Facebook Ads to run webinars [inaudible 00:13:22] and nothing converted and nothing sold. It was in two days, the money just disappeared like I was gambling with it.

Catherine Alford :

Now, 10 years later, I know a lot more about Facebook Ads, but just so many choices in business like that. You have to kind of try things. But that was a painful one.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right, one more thing. One thing I love in the book is that you talk about the fact that you would love negotiating, and you've taught your children too. What is your number one tip for negotiating successfully?

Catherine Alford :

My number one tip is to be nice. I think people think negotiating is all about being really aggressive and making sure you get your words in, and you make sure you say the number first. I am just so nice when negotiating, and I'm really complimentary about how much I really want to work with the person, how awesome they are. But I have to have a certain number, and it's such a bummer just because I have all these time constraints, it really has to be this number to make it work. So I am the nicest negotiator.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right. Tell us where people can find out more about you and the book.

Catherine Alford :

You could find out more about me at catherinealford.com. I'm always on the 'gram under @catherinecalford. And on my website, my readers can go to the homepage, and they can download a Mom's Got Money workbook which has a ton of stuff from the book and a lot of great things to think about and for moms to sort of jumpstart their money journey.

Bobbi Rebell :

Perfect. Thank you so much. This has been wonderful, so much great advice, and I hope everyone picks up the book.

Catherine Alford :

Thanks for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell :

Here we go, my friends. Financial Grownup Tip Number One: Do as Catherine now says, not as she did. Ask for help from people who love you. Catherine didn't take her own advice to ask for help from the people that care about her, her closest friends and family. As she said in our interview, she has a whole chapter on vulnerability. But Catherine, like many of us, wanted to make it on her own and felt that asking for help, even in these unforeseen and very extreme circumstances, would have been perceived as a failure. She was afraid of letting people down. She now knows so much better.

Bobbi Rebell :

I get it. I bet you do too. It's a really hard thing to ask for help from people that are cheering you on because they think you've got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Well, try to at least have the discussion. It's okay to say that things have changed. You might feel so much relief, just not hiding your secret.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup Tip Number Two, and this is a big one: Do not presume you have any idea what is going on with the person ahead of you in a grocery line who may be using coupons, government assistance, whatever. And don't presume you won't be in a financially vulnerable position in the future. We should all know better after the past year.

Bobbi Rebell :

I also want to share a fun moment that we experienced, we shared, I should say, over social media Catherine and I had soon after we recorded this interview. Her books arrived, and she shared the big unboxing with her kids on her Instagram account. It made me remember my own unboxing moment from 2016 with my now 13-year-old, and guess what? I found the video, and I was able to share it. It was great.

Bobbi Rebell :

The best part of writing a book or any big achievement, frankly, is seeing people you love, and especially your kids, light up with pride. Please think about that the next time you feel guilty working towards a goal or having to spend more time than you would like away from your kids and loved ones.

Bobbi Rebell :

On that note, a couple of big announcements. April is Financial Literacy Month, and thanks to the generosity of our Financial Grownup guests who have new books out and their publishers, I am giving out books to all of you to celebrate. DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and just write, "I'd love a book by a Financial Grownup," and we'll send you one.

Bobbi Rebell :

Next, I want to spend more time getting to know you. Please join me and my Financial Grownup money experts on our weekly Clubhouse chats. They happen Friday at 1:00 PM Eastern in the Money Tips for Grownups Club. DM me on Instagram if you need invitation for Clubhouse or any help in figuring out how to get there. I am @bobbirebell1.

Bobbi Rebell :

And finally, Mother's Day is coming up. I have some great gift options at grownupgear.com. I hope you take a moment to check it out. The podcast is free to you, but the revenue from Grownup Gear helps to support and pay for the podcast, so thank you for your support.

Bobbi Rebell :

Go pick up a copy of Mom's Got Money for yourself or for the moms in your life, and big thanks to Catherine Alford for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell :

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Saven is our talent coordinator and content creator, so that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell :

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell :

While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup.

Bobbi Rebell :

Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes.

Bobbi Rebell :

Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Advice, Authors, Family + Relationships, Money, Personal Finance, Shopping, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest UserApril 20, 2021Catherine Alford, personal finance expert, public money shame

Tiffany Aliche “The Budgetnista” on how she taught her bonus daughter to Get Good with Money

Main Twitter- Tiffany the budgetnista Aliche educator and author (2).png

Former pre-school teacher Tiffany Aliche created a mini-“boss” entrepreneur when her savvy stepdaughter started asking questions about money- and put her on an early path to being a financial grownup. Plus we preview Tiffany’s latest book, Get Good with Money. 10 Steps to Financial Wholeness.

Tiffany’s Money Story

Every time we would go out shopping, My husband would buy my step-daughter a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him thatt his is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup. I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words." She would get birthday money or Christmas money. I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me." What he realized, because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving, she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that. She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time. I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn. Now, when she was buying ( her favorite place is Staples) she was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were. And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy. She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

Insta quote #2- Tiffany the budgetnista Aliche educator and author (2).png

Tiffany’s Money Lesson

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently. And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Tiffany’s Everyday Money Tip

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered. And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

Insta quote #1- Tiffany the budgetnista Aliche educator and author (1).png

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

#2 - Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Buy Tiffany’s book, GET GOOD WITH MONEY today!

Insta quote #3- Tiffany the budgetnista Aliche educator and author (2).png

Follow Tiffany!

Instagram - @thebudgetnista
Twitter- @thebudgetnista
LinkedIn- Tiffany Aliche
Website- thebudgetnista.com

Follow Bobbi!

Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up-for-work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy t-shirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded-but-still-super-comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick-me-ups to, to let them know it's all good. And that includes you.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently, like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either," or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost-grownup friend.

Bobbi Rebell:

Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

When I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others, so she had... because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, grownups, how many of you had parents who had you open up their paychecks? Definitely not me. But our financial grownup this week, Tiffany Aliche, known as The Budgetnista, didn't just do that; she talked to her bonus daughter about all the money stuff. Not just the paychecks that she was allowing her to open, as early as age seven; she talked to her about the taxes, the business deductions, the negotiations, the side hustles, the net profit and so much more. These ladies do business plans in their sleep.

Bobbi Rebell:

Welcome everyone to the Financial Grownup podcast. So, glad you guys are here. We talk with high-achieving grownups about money stories that inspired their lives and the lessons from them. And this week's financial grownup, Tiffany Aliche, is truly next-level. I joke with her that while most books these days are Money 101, hers, Get Good With Money, is Money 201 because she holds her readers to a higher standard and goes into the real grownup stuff. Not surprising, given her background in teaching preschool, where she sets kids as young as three up for success. You'll hear what she has to say about what kids that age should hear, when they say, "Buy me... " She pulls no punches.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany has a thriving business, teaching money skills to thousands of Dream Catchers and co-hosts the Brown Ambition podcast with Mandi Woodruff. But as you will hear, this mega entrepreneur, wife and mother's biggest accolades may in fact come from the lessons she is teaching her step-daughter. Here is The Budgetnista, Tiffany Aliche.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you so much, Bobbi with an "I".

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes. And congratulations on your book. I'm going to hold it up here, even though no one can see it, just because I feel good holding it up because I love the cover. Your book is Get Good with Money: Ten Simple Steps to Become Financially Whole. We're going to talk about it more later in the podcast, but give us just high-level what it's about.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's about financial wholeness, which is when these 10 core aspects of your financial life grow together and meld together to create the strongest financial foundation possible so you can build any financial house you want on top of it.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I love, when you read the book, you go along and you get percentages, so you feel like you're building to get to that 100%, which is great. Like I said, we're going to circle back to the book, but first I want to ask you your money story. And it has to do with your bonus baby, your daughter, your 14-year-old step-daughter. She was seven when you came into her life. And you had some interesting discussions about money. Tell us how your money conversations began and how they've evolved.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, they began because I just noticed that her father, every time we would go out shopping, food-shopping or whatever, she would always get a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him, "This is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup." So, I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words."

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would get birthday money or Christmas money. And so, I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me."

Tiffany Aliche :

What he realized... because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving... she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that."

Tiffany Aliche :

She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time.

Tiffany Aliche :

I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn like, "Oh... "

Tiffany Aliche :

So, now, when she was buying... her favorite place is Staples. She was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were.

Tiffany Aliche :

And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy.

Tiffany Aliche :

She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you also were very brave in that you were transparent with your money coming in and the costs associated with running a business. Tell us a little bit about why you did that because many parents hold back. We all hold back secret... I don't know if "secrets" is the right word, but we're not with our money, certainly to young people. And that was an interesting decision.

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah. So, I used to allow her... when I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Tiffany Aliche :

And I remember, I think she was in fifth or sixth grade and she had to interview someone she admired. And she chose me because she wanted to be an entrepreneur. She wasn't sure what she wanted to be. I mean, she's sold lip gloss. She's made friendship bracelets. She's done a bunch of different... now, she's got a YouTube channel. Now, she's teaching adults how to use TikTok. It's like she's got a bunch of different businesses going.

Tiffany Aliche :

But I remember when I realized she was really getting it, because she was still young then, maybe eight or nine. And I explained to her how taxes worked. She heard me talking to her father about taxes. She asked me what they were. And I told her, "Similar to sales tax, taxes are when you pay some of the money that you earn to the government so they can use it to make our country better."

Tiffany Aliche :

And I said, "But when you're an entrepreneur, taxes work differently. When I was a teacher," I told her, "Before I even get my paycheck, the government takes their taxes." And she was like, "That's unfair." I'm like, "Many would say so." But I said, "But as an entrepreneur, when you see those paychecks, Supergirl, I get all my money. Then I can use that money to grow and maintain the business. And what's left over, I pay taxes on. That's why you see me save the receipts. I save the receipts so I can show the government, 'Hey, I spent money to run my business.'" She had a bag one day and it was 15 different receipts. And I'm like, "Well, what are these from?" She's like, "These are the receipts so you give to the government so you could show them that you spend money on the business." And I was like, "Well, they have to be receipts for my business." But the fact that at eight or nine that she was thinking like that was just really transformative.

Tiffany Aliche :

I was a school teacher before I started The Budgetnista. I've seen firsthand that a lot of parents think that it's not age-appropriate to teach financial education to kids. It's inappropriate not to. There are ways to do it in a way that's appropriate as young as three because typically by three or four or five, kids start to saying, "Mommy, Daddy, Auntie, Uncle, can you buy me... " not just, "Can I have... " So, once you hear that word "buy", they've already made the connection between stuff and money. You want to make sure it's the right connection.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson from your money story?

Tiffany Aliche :

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently.

Tiffany Aliche :

And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Bobbi Rebell:

So brilliant. You brought with you an everyday money tip that has to do with paper towels?

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tell us. Tell us. This is great.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered.

Tiffany Aliche :

And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"

Tiffany Aliche :

And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

Bobbi Rebell:

Skip the drama. Find the solution.

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's talk about this book because it is... this is a substantial book. Again, it's called Get Good with Money. One of my favorite things is you say something that has become somewhat controversial. In this age, where we are so focused on automating things... and some things should be automated, absolutely. We should automate our savings and things like that. But just because something, like certain apps, can automate investing doesn't mean you don't need the human touch. You really advocate for having a human involved. Tell us more about the belief and why we need to be more cognizant of it.

Tiffany Aliche :

No, absolutely. Because there's nuance with human beings that you don't get from just automating everything. And also too, it's really from people that you learn. So, if everything is automated and you automate your investments, that's great, but you don't really learn why something works. That's why we have teachers because it's through these teachers that you get to really learn why something works and how it works.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's critically important, depending on where you are in life, that you have actual people who have been there, done that to lean into, whether it's a CFP, whether it's an accountant. You may or may not need one. You might need an insurance agent. You might need an attorney. It all depends. But at the very least, I tell people to get themselves an accountability partner, someone that you can travel the financial journey with. It might be your work mom, it might be your sister, your cousin, but someone that you can link with that you can kind of share the struggles, that you can get accountability and encouragement from and someone who can help to normalize the process. I think human beings work best in community. And it's not something that goes away just because we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:

I read so many books, Tiffany. And many of them are very good, but they're very much Money 101. This is, I feel, more Money 201. You're a former teacher. Well, you're really still a teacher, let's be honest. You hold people to a higher standard. You go into some much more sophisticated topics, but in an accessible way. Tell us about that decision to be a little bit more challenging and to be a little more ambitious with this book.

Tiffany Aliche :

Well, as a teacher, Bobbi, one of the things that we really learn is something called differentiated learning, that people learn differently. So, literally, when I taught, I had kids ages just turned three to turned five. So, that's like high school and college in the same classroom. So, I really had to learn how do I teach something in a way that doesn't offend the five-year-olds and they don't get bored and start tearing up the classroom, or it's not too heavy for the three-year-olds so they don't start tearing up the classroom. And so, I really mastered how do I speak to different ranges of folks.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, the first five steps in financial wholeness, Get Good with Money are really the foundational: budgeting, debt, credit, savings, learn to earn. But the next five really are a deeper dive. So, that's how I address that. I was like, "Okay, if you have that great super foundation, then here's where you're going to learn how to invest for retirement and wealth. Here's where you're going to learn how to make sure you get good with insurance, your net worth, getting your money team and estate planning." And so, I spoke to both of those levels by including both of them in the book. But I wanted to make sure that even if you're like, "You know what? I've got the super foundation," I really did deeper dives so you could learn something new, even if you were pretty good there. Or if you were ready to go to the next level and it was new to you, I really explained it in such a way that even if investing was new to you, that you could really learn.

Bobbi Rebell:

You did a great job. Where can people learn more about you and be in touch?

Tiffany Aliche :

So, you can learn more about me... I'm The Budgetnista on all social media platforms. And you can keep in touch and get the book at getgoodwithmoney.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one. As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup tip number two. Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends. April is Financial Literacy Month and I'm giving away a ton of incredible money books, including Tiffany's. Want one? All you have to do is DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and just say, "I'd love a book from a financial grownup." The authors that are on this podcast and their publishers are incredibly generous. And I can't wait to send out lots and lots of books.

Bobbi Rebell:

And by the way, I was so honored to have the Financial Grownup podcast on Real Simple's list of the top 10 best finance podcasts for beginners, investors and everyone, along with Tiffany and Mandi's Brown Ambition podcast and many more really fantastic shows. I'll share the article in the show notes, which you can see on my website, bobbirebell.com. And I hope you'll make the time to check out some of the other great money podcasts on the list.

Bobbi Rebell:

Big thanks to Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, for teaching us all how to be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell. But the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator, so, yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell:

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear Shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

Stay in touch on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter at @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Advice, Authors, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Money, Personal Finance, Role Models, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursGuest UserApril 13, 2021tiffany aliche, the budgetnista, money education

How to be an Adult with Author Julie Lythcott-Haims

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The best-selling author reveals what happened when her dad opened her mail and saw her credit card debt, and the surprising result when she and her husband cut their budget by 90 percent. Plus a preview of her new book: Your Turn: How to be an Adult.

Julie’s Money Lesson:

Okay, the recliner. I'm starting to make a lot of money. I'm making enough that my husband is like, "How would you feel about me being a full-time artist?" And I was like, “Yes!”. I was supporting a family of four. My husband became a full-time artist and we started spending money. We're buying the nicer table. We're buying the nicer artwork. We're buying the nicer recliner. We realized that our set point of what we could just spend money on, in terms of discretionary spending, had just increased as our salary increased. We're looking around like we're making far more money than we ever had, but we're not saving a darn thing. What is up? And we realized that set point was just out of control. We were just dropping $1,000 without thinking about it. I read up, I talked to people and I learned this rule of if you want to save, you want to change your habits, you don't just try to start saving 5% or 10% if you've been saving nothing, you need to start saving for yourself first. You need to pay yourself first and decide what your savings goals are and set that to the side and then pay the rest of your bills. And that meant that our discretionary spending, we were going to cut by 95% or by 90%. If we were spending $1,000 on a recliner, when we had to buy the second recliner, it was going to be $100. And I was bummed because the second recliner was for me and my husband had the fancy recliner. We went to the cheaper furniture store and sat in recliners. And we had these down, sad faces, like “poor us” right? And I sound so privileged talking about this. I realize some people are like, "$100 is a lot of money." I'm just saying for me, it was a big cut. And then we found this recliner for $100 that is so comfortable. It is like the recliner of choice. You come to our house, everyone gravitates to it. It looks comfortable and it is comfortable. It's the kind of thing when you push the buttons and it starts to leans back, you're like, "Ah". It feels like a spa. And it's the cheapest thing in the whole downstairs of our house. Cut spending on something by 90% and see if you noticed.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

Insta Quote #1-Julie Lythcott-Haims your turn how to be an adult (3).png

#1 - Julie jokes about how retirement is over romanticized and I couldn't agree more. Work is not just a path to retirement. We put in about a third of our 24 hour day, and for many of us, a lot more than those eight hours. If you hate what you're doing so much, that you are laser focused on retirement, consider refocusing that energy on enjoying your day to day more. If there's anything we've learned during the pandemic, it's that we should not assume things need to stay the same. Hit pause, give yourself some grownup tough love and fix it.

#2 - Let's get better about asking our friends and colleagues of different backgrounds and races about their experiences with money. Even though Julie clearly and candidly talks about how being a person of color impacted her money decisions in the book, as a white person I wasn't sure about asking Julie about it. I'm really glad I did. I'm not sure why I was so hesitant. And I hope we can all make time to both listen and share with each other as well. And in case you're wondering, as a white person in this country, it never even occurred to me that I needed to use a credit card to prove I belonged in a store. We need to be talking about this.

Get your copy of YOUR TURN: How to Be an Adult today!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

It is officially spring. And that means graduation season is on. We here at The Financial Grownup Podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and the seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweaters all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup Gear also makes great gifts for Mother's Day, Father's Day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette, parties birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code graduation for a 15% discount. And thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and we truly appreciate your support.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

They handed me a check for the full amount, $3,900 plus change, and I felt so shamed and so just embarrassed. Here I am highly educated, a fancy degree from a fancy college and I'd managed to get so far in the hole. And I just cried. I just cried. Tears just rolled down my face.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a Financial Grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this. Hello, my grownup friends. It is April. I am so happy it's April. I don't know about you, but I just, I needed the better weather. Speaking to you from my home in New York City, where we've had a very brutal winter. I was fortunate. I got to go to Florida for a little bit, but we've been home for a while and this better weather could not come at a better time.

Bobbi Rebell:

And also, as some of you get to see, it's very much a work in progress, you see it on my Instagram, but I do get to go out and play golf, which is a really great way to spend time. Anyway, let's talk about this week's Financial Grownup. The adjective that I am going to use to describe her, delightful, Julie Lythcott-Haims is out with a new book, Your Turn: How to be an Adult. It is the much anticipated follow-up to her previous book, How to Raise an Adult, and not to be forgotten in between those, Real American: A Memoir, and a very personal book, which continues to grow in relevance.

Bobbi Rebell:

Julie is a former Stanford Dean. She left that position to pursue her passion, the career she'd always dreamed about, writing. You know what? It's working out okay. Julie's new book, Your Turn: How to be an Adult, is about more than just being a Financial Grownup, though she does have a chapter which is pretty much on the topic. Chapter eight, check it out. The book is about being a full on adult, but for the purposes of this podcast, she was a good sport and gets candid about her money blunders and victories. Here is Julie Lythcott-Haims. Julie Lythcott-Haims, you are a Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Bobbi, no one's ever said that to me before. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

You are very much a Financial Grownup. You're the author of Your Turn: How to be an Adult. Welcome.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I think I'm going to learn something.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm going to ask you to share a money story from the book, which has to do with credit card debt, but there's a really interesting angle that has to do with how you relate to your family, which is so appropriate when we talk about Financial Grownups.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. Thanks for pointing to something that's deeply personal. No, of course. I shared it in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's in the book, Julie.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I know. I'm trying to be vulnerable with my readers so that they can feel more safe and seen. Okay, picture me. I now 53, but in the story, I was maybe 22. I had amassed a lot of credit card debt in college. I was at Stanford University. The student union was basically lined with the desks of fakes who were there to offer me a credit card application. And I filled out maybe two of them. I had two credit cards. I would use my credit cards at the local shopping center. I would use them for groceries. I would use them for dinners and lunches out and coffee. I was just, I was spending money without having really learned the habits of how you keep track of your expenses and the whole interest part with credit cards. Long and short, I had accumulated about $3,900 in debt.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

This would be around 1990, 1991. Maybe double that, maybe like $6,000, $7,000 in today's dollars. I had no way to pay it off. My first job I'd earned $20,000 a year. It's hard to pay down a debt of $3,000 when you're only earning $20,000 gross. And I was headed off to law school and was living with my parents over the summer before law school started. And so my mail, including my bills, was being forwarded to my parents' address. Well, unbeknownst to me, after I had opened the latest credit card bill showing just how much I owed, my parents had read it as well.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

One night they just solemnly came toward me and said, "You're about to go start grad school and you're getting married. And we want you to start life with Dan", my boyfriend and soon to be husband, "with a financial clean slate. So here's a check." They handed me a check for the full amount, $3,900 plus change. And I felt so shamed. And so just embarrassed. Here I am highly educated, a fancy degree from a fancy college, and I'd managed to get so far in the hole and I just cried. I just cried. Tears just rolled down my face. They weren't judgmental. They weren't scolding me. They were offering me this gift.

Bobbi Rebell:

There's also another lesson for our listeners about relationships and how you communicate with your family.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. That really pushes the button, right? I think I was so ashamed that I had let them down by being this child of theirs who had been so irresponsible. And I think the lesson is had I only reached out sooner. I just kept digging the hole deeper and deeper by paying the minimum on my credit cards. If I had reached out to my parents six months earlier, or a year before, or two years before, I would probably never have gotten into such bad debt to start with.

Bobbi Rebell:

We're going to talk for your everyday money lesson about the fact that you guys like to splurge. But then there was sort of an aha moment. Tell us about the recliner.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Okay, the recliner. I'm starting to make a lot of money. I'm making enough that my husband, who's a designer, a product designer, user experience designer, is like, "How would you feel about me being a full-time artist?" And I was like, yes. Okay, that's how capable I was of supporting a family of four. My husband became a full-time artist and we started spending money. We're buying the nicer table. We're buying the nicer artwork. We're buying the nicer recliner.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

We realized that our set point of what we could just spend money on, in terms of discretionary spending, had just increased as our salary increased. We're looking around like we're making far more money than we ever had, but we're not saving a darn thing. What is up? And we realized that set point was just out of control. We were just dropping $1,000 without thinking about it. I read up, I talked to people and I learned this rule of if you want to save, you want to change your habits, you don't just try to start saving 5% or 10% if you've been saving nothing, you need to start saving for yourself first.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

You need to pay yourself first and decide what your savings goals are and set that to the side and then pay the rest of your bills. And that meant that our discretionary spending, we were going to cut by 95% or by 90%. If we were spending $1,000 on a recliner, when we had to buy the second recliner, it was going to be $100. And I was bummed because the second recliner was for me and my husband had the fancy recliner. We went to the cheaper furniture store and sat in recliners. And we had these down, sad faces, like poor us, we can only, right? And I sound so privileged talking about this. I realize some people are like,"$100 is a lot of money."

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I'm just saying for me, it was a big cut. And then we found this recliner for $100 that is so comfortable. It is like the recliner of choice. You come to our house, everyone gravitates to it. It looks comfortable and it is comfortable. It's the kind of thing when you push the buttons and it starts to leans back, you're like, "Ah". It feels like a spa. And it's the cheapest thing in the whole downstairs of our house.

Bobbi Rebell:

But it's good. It's working for you and you saved 90%.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

Nobody misses not spending the money.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

That's right.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's so great. And yeah, the tip is basically cuts something by 90% and see if you noticed.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Right. That's right.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That's a good one.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

100%. Yep.

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's talk more about this book. I devoured it. I have to say it's a robust book. This is a book that took a lot of research. I really encourage people, not only to read it, but to settle in with it because it really is worth your time. I picked out a few of the things that I'd like you to elaborate on within the book. And the first one kind of tag team to what we just talked about because there's a lot of talk about cutting your expenses so that you can retire early. That's one of the motivations for taking drastic action when it comes to spending. But you talk about the fact that retiring early is really over romanticized.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

The retiring early rhetoric tends to be, "My job sucks. I can't wait to retire. I'm just going to slog away working in this dungeon so that I can at 55 or 57 or 60, whatever, I can kick back and relax and travel." If that's the choice you're making, more power to you. But in the book, I'm trying to expand people's horizons and get folks to think maybe work doesn't have to feel so awful, such that all you want to do is leave work. Maybe you can lead a career life, a job life, a professional life that is intrinsically rewarding. It feels good. You're tapping into your talents, your strengths, your loves, you're growing. You're making enough money to pay your bills.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

And you're like, "Hey, I'm not eager to retire. I enjoy what I'm doing." And then to put a fine point on it, Bobbi, oftentimes when people retire, that is they cease doing that which they have always done, that which has been a huge part of their identity, they begin to wither psychologically. They begin to wither physically. They begin to wither in terms of their personal connections, because they're not making things with their hands, they're not doing as much with their brain and they're not seeing human beings as much. Retirement can often lead to a downward spiral. If one is not sort of healthy, hail and active in one's retirement, it can really be the beginning of the end.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I'm here to say, love the work you do, do the work you love, make sure it pays your bills and do it for as long as you can and build in the travel and the enjoyment and the fishing and all of that along the way, rather than waiting to live that life you imagined only after you've retired from some terrible job.

Bobbi Rebell:

Such a good reminder. Another thing that really stood out in the book that I went, oh, that I don't think about enough, when you talked about the spending, and this ties into your spending on the credit cards when you were younger especially, you talk about the fact that racial stereotypes played into your spending decisions. Tell us more.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Well, what listeners need to know is I'm a black and biracial woman, very light skin. But nevertheless, I think to the world, unambiguously of color. And most people figure out that I'm black. I, as a young person, had learned to ... I had internalized the hate that I had experienced along the way. Microaggressions, outright racism, these things were things I experienced in childhood. By the time I get to college and I'm at an elite college, I'm at Stanford University in Silicon Valley and I have these credit cards. I am using the credit cards when I'm in a store, in a fancy store, at the Stanford Shopping Center or in a nice restaurant as a way to demonstrate, I have credit, I am capable. You do not have to associate me with that stereotypical black person you think can't afford to purchase your goods, your food, because I have this credit card.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I was really deep in my internalized oppression that I was trying to not be the stereotypical black person. I was trying to be the model Negro, if you will, I'm using terms of stereotype. I have long since grown out of that behavior, but I will say, yeah, the credit card was like an appendage that was proving my ability or my worthiness or my right to be in these white environments. I overspent as a result, I'd be with friends at dinner and say like, you know what? I'll take care of the bill. And I'd plunk down my gold. How did I have a gold American Express card so young? But I did. They knew who they were preying on. It worked, right? I was like, I'll take care of the bill. And it was my way of showing, not just the restaurant, but my friends, I have money, even though I didn't necessarily have the money in the bank to pay that bill.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's a tough situation that society puts people in that mindset.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

We could talk about this a lot more, but this is a short podcast and I want to talk about one final theme. And that is that you really humanize a lot of our experiences with money by bringing stories of other people into the book. I wanted to ask you to share that a little bit.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. Thank you so much. The book is part memoir, me telling my lived experience, as you've just asked me about, me with some self-help tips, practical advice, but then I've got the stories of these other people in every chapter, a really diverse set of people from all walks of life in order to say to all readers, I'm trying to envision all of you as I write this. And the two stories in the money chapter are Wesley, who grew up working poor, put himself through community college, put himself into position of getting to drive for UPS and has been with UPS now for 35 years and will retire with a full pension from UPS.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

It hearkens back to days of yore, when you'd work for one employer all your life, and they were very loyal to you and you were loyal to them and unions were strong and that's not really the way much of the working world works these days, but there are plenty of industries that still do offer pensions, like the package driving industry, like UPS and police and law enforcement more broadly and schools. People who work for the government tend to have a pension. And this is a way to the middle class. Wesley has provided a life for himself, his wife and his son that is just many steps above what he grew up with financially. I wanted that story in there. I think it's a really important story about the American dream and that in many ways it is alive and well today.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

The other story is Denae, who's a dancer, got an undergraduate degree and a master's in dance. She's a professional dancer in New York City. She's done some amazing gigs, but dancing gigs come and they go. And when they go, she doesn't have income unless she supplements that with other work, which she does. Nevertheless, she had racked up with interest $50.000 in student loan debt, living in the most expensive city in America, New York, and or one of the most expensive, and she set herself a goal to get out of that credit card debt.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

She said, "I'm going to be debt three and three years." And she did it by being extremely frugal about her food, extremely thoughtful and mindful about her choices, about how she went places, what kinds of places she rented. She would even say when she was working a temp job in between dancing gigs, somebody took her food out of the fridge and started eating it. And she put a note on the refrigerators, "Hey, please don't eat my food. I'm paying down my student loans." And if that wasn't crystal clear, because she didn't know who did it, but she just knew I have to send this message.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

She stood up for herself, both to herself and to her friends and coworkers to say, "Hey, don't take my stuff. I'm paying off my student loan." Really brave. She did pay down that loan. Danced through the subway in a rented dress that she got from Rent the Runway with a big sign saying, "I'm debt-free. Hug me." And then she became a financial planner to help other people. When she's not dancing, she's now a certified financial planner person because she saw how many of her own peers, highly educated, didn't know enough about money. Here's to Denae, very much a resource for other people now that she is completely debt free.

Bobbi Rebell:

I am smiling ear to ear hearing that story. And there's so many other wonderful human stories in this book. We know it's going to be available everywhere. I won't have you say that, but where can people find out more about you and any virtual touring that you're going to be doing, my dear?

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thank you, Bobbi. The best way to be in touch with me is through my website, JulieLythcott-Haims.com. I'm sure Bobbi will put the spelling of that in the show notes. From there, you can follow me on social I'm @JLythcott-Haims everywhere. Maybe even Tik Tok, who knows, we'll see. I'm starting a membership club because I like to get real with people. I like to get really vulnerable and share. I know that that's the way we learn and grow and feel less lonely and I'm starting that. That's all online. Go to my website and just from there, you'll be able to follow me what I'm up to and all the virtual tour stuff will be on there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, thank you so much for this. Thank you for the book and thank you for joining us.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

You're amazing. Thanks for having me. And I actually feel more competent about my financial choices and what I've learned from them because you helped me think it through, by walking through these stories with me. Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:

They're all your stories. Thank you.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thanks.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, here's my take. Financial Grownup tip number one, Julie jokes about how retirement is over romanticized And I couldn't agree more. Work is not just a path to retirement. We put in about a third of our 24 hour day, and for many of us, a lot more than those eight hours. If you hate what you're doing so much, that you are laser focused on retirement, consider refocusing that energy on enjoying your day to day more. If there's anything we've learned during the pandemic, it's that we should not assume things need to stay the same. Hit pause, give yourself some grownup tough love and fix it.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial Grownup tip number two, let's get better about asking our friends and colleagues of different backgrounds and races about their experiences with money. Even though Julie clearly and candidly talks about how being a person of color impacted her money decisions in the book, as a white person I wasn't sure about asking Julia about it. I'm really glad I did. I'm not sure why I was so hesitant. And I hope we can all make time to both listen and share with each other as well. And in case you're wondering, as a white person in this country, it never even occurred to me that I needed to use a credit card to prove I belonged in a store. We need to be talking about this.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is Financial Literacy Month and I am giving away a ton of incredible books, including Julie's. You want one? All you have to do is DM me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1, and just say, "I'd love a book from a Financial Grownup". The authors that are on this podcast and their publishers are incredibly generous. And I can't wait to send out lots and lots of books. Everyone, pick up Your Turn: How to be an Adult and big thanks to Julie Lythcott-Haims for helping us all be Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creators. Yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life.

Bobbi Rebell:

And this year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go-to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free, while you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear Shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Advice, Authors, Financial Independence, Money, Personal Finance, Shopping, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest UserApril 6, 2021Julie Lythcott-Haims, your turn how to be an adult, credit cards, credit card debt, spending, saving, money

How to Earn More and Worry Less with "Think Like a Breadwinner" Author Jennifer Barrett

Main Insta- Jen Barrett chief education officer acorns-How to Earn More and Worry Less with _Think Like a Breadwinner_ Author .png

Acorn’s Chief Education Officer Jennifer Barrett shares her own “wake up’ call’ when she learned to think like a breadwinner, and gives us specific strategies to build wealth and create a path to have the rich life we all deserve.

Jennifer’s Money Lesson-

I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth. So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Insta Quote #2- Jen Barrett chief education officer acorns-How to Earn More and Worry Less with _Think Like a Breadwinner_ Author .png

Jennifer’s Money Tip-

I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbi’s Tips-

Financial Grownup Tip #1-

Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent.

Financial Grownup Tip #2-

Thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Get your copy of Think Like A Bread Winner by Jennifer Barrett

Follow Jennifer!

Instagram - @jbarrettnyc
Twitter- @jbarrettNYC
LinkedIn- Jennifer Barrett
Website- www.jenniferbarrett.com

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Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbie Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good, and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more thaT I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle.

Bobbie Rebell: Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently. Like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup, or almost grownup, friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear, and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Jen Barrett: Deep down. I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life. I really thought my husband would be the main earner. So it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary, and then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises.

Bobbie Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbie Rebell: Hey, Grownups, this episode has been about five years in the making. I'll never forget sitting in a Midtown restaurant with my new friend, Jennifer Barrett. A mutual friend had introduced us thinking, "Well, you guys have a lot in common and maybe you guys will come up with some projects together." So we were brainstorming our two big ideas. For me, it was Financial Grownup and the idea of sharing money stories to inspire people to build the foundation for a wealthy life of choices, getting to live the life that they want. For Jen, it was the concept that we all had to, well, think like breadwinners. Jen had, and still has, I should say, what we call a big job. She really is the breadwinner and her job as the chief education officer at Acorns is intense and sometimes all consuming. But finally, her new book, Think Like a Bread Winner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less is coming out.

Bobbie Rebell:I can tell all of you it has been well worth the wait. I was honored that Jen asked me to contribute to this book and to endorse it along with David Bach, Eve Rodsky, the author of Fairplay, Farnoosh Torabi, who by the way wrote When She Makes More, so thinking along the same path, and Erin Lowry, who's been a frequent guest on this podcast, author of the Broke Millennial books series, and many more. In our interview, Jen Barrett shares the story that started it all when she realized what she didn't want to admit. If she wanted to get what she wanted to get, she was going to have to start thinking like a breadwinner. Here is Jennifer Barrett.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen Barrett, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jen Barrett: Thanks so much for having me.

Bobbie Rebell: I'm so excited to talk to you about your new book. So many years in the making, we've been talking about this for years. It's finally here. Think Like A Breadwinner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less. By the way, Jen, it's already getting reviews that are amazing. This one I'm going to read to people. It's from Ladders, which is a career website. "Jennifer Barrett's manifesto for working women transcends its goal by being more than a finance book, but a testament that anyone anywhere can achieve their goals with the right advice." Not bad, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, that was a nice review. It was nice to read.

Bobbie Rebell: You're very modest.

Jen Barrett: I know. You're so nervous. You're on pins and needles before the book comes out. You're like, "I hope they like it." So it was really nice to read that.

Bobbie Rebell: Well, I got a sneak peek of the book because I got to endorse it so everyone can read my blurb when they get the book. Before we talk more about it, though, you did bring with you a money story, which really inspired the book so many years ago. Tell us your money story, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, well, there's a material difference between being able to cover the bills and handle a budgets and building wealth that supports your life and the future you want. That difference became super clear to me just after we'd had our oldest son. At the time, I was in my early 30s and we were sharing a small one bedroom apartment with our toddler who was about 18 months old. One night I was pacing back and forth with him, trying to get him back to sleep, and I think it just hit me so hard in that moment that we were in a situation that was just completely unsustainable.

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Jen Barrett: I had this moment of, "Wait a second. I thought I was doing everything right financially." I had a little 401k. I had a little bit of savings. I was paying half the bills. But what I realized was that I hadn't been putting money away for the things that were most important to me, and that was being able to have another child, to afford to buy a place or even to move into a bigger apartments because we lived in Brooklyn, which is not cheap. I did some real soul searching and asked myself, "Why didn't I make those choices with my money to save more and to invest more?" I realized that subconsciously I had been thinking that my husband would take the lead there. In that moment, I think it finally dawned on me how precarious an assumption that is. So I asked myself in the days that followed, "How would the choices I make with my money and my career be different if I had been raised to think like a breadwinner?"

Jen Barrett: That's what sort of set me off on a whole new journey and brought me to where I am today, more than a decade later, which is a much better place financially. We have a larger home. I helped with most of the down payment. We have two lovely sons now. I've had both a career and been able to build the kind of wealth that I couldn't have even imagined 12 years ago when I had that wake up call.

Bobbie Rebell: Tell us more about what you were doing before you had that wake up call, what kind of job you had. Because you had a really good job that a lot of people would be very, very envious of and really admire. I mean, you were high achieving and then the things that you looked for in the next job, besides obviously paying more. I know there was a lot of soul searching about sort of what people would think, because we're both journalist backgrounds, there's a lot of judgment there.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, and I think that's an important point is just because you have a good job doesn't mean that you have your finances together. You can be a professional success and feel like a financial failure. I interviewed more than 100 women for the book and I did find that to be the case with a surprising number of women who were otherwise very successful. So I think I was in sort of the same situation but with one crucial distinction, which is I was an editor at Newsweek at that point a pretty big weekly news magazine. It has since sort of gone under and been reborn and it's not quite the same as it used to be, but it was a great job. I really looked like I had it all together from the outside, but I was really living paycheck to paycheck for the most part.

Jen Barrett: We say paycheck to paycheck, but what I was was broke, right? I only had a few hundred dollars in my savings. I was still paying down some credit card debt. So if you looked at my actual net worth, I was in negative territory and I really wasn't making the kinds of choices or making the kinds of money that would allow me to support the life that I really wanted. One big reason for that, which is almost embarrassing to admit now and I've since changed my approach with this significantly, is that I had never negotiated my salary. So when I got the job at Newsweek, I was just so thrilled to be hired there I literally did not even think to negotiate. I do think part of that was that I was so excited to be hired there, but the other part of it was deep down I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life.

Jen Barrett: I really thought my husband would be the main earner and so it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary. Then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises. So one other critical moment for me was I came back from maternity leave and I found out that someone had been hired who had just a few more years experience than me in a very similar role and they were making 50% more than me. That moment was like ... It was so crushing that I vowed I would never ever make that mistake again and I was going to negotiate the hell out of every job offer and raise that I got from that point on, and it made me sort of reassess this idea I had about loyalty and about employers just taking care of you because you're doing a great job. It was a real wake up call in that sense too, where I realized I need to advocate for myself. I need to show my value. I need to ask for it and not assume that I'm going to get it just because I'm doing a good job.

Bobbie Rebell: So you set out to get a job that paid more. Tell us what that job was and how that onboarding went.

Jen Barrett: Yeah. So I was hired in my first job in management. I became the director of a health site. It was part of NBC. It was called iVillage Health. It was a huge site at the time. I think one of the top five largest health sites for women. It was a dramatic increase in the amount of responsibility I had, but also in my salary. So I ended up making almost double what I had ... Actually, no. More than double what I had been making at Newsweek and in between there I freelanced, and when I was freelancing, I really understood that I had undervalued myself and my skills because I was able to make a lot more freelancing than I had in my full-time job at Newsweek. So that was also a realization and a validation of the fact that the skills that I had were valuable. Then with this job, it both provided a lot more income. It allowed me to get the mortgage and it also put me on the management track, which I have been on ever since.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what was your husband thinking while this was going on? Did you have talks about this?

Jen Barrett: We did and I think part of it was when he and I first started dating, he was working at a startup at the time and was making a lot more than I was as a reporter. But I think that's where some of the assumptions sort of got set in my head. The startup went under and then he moved back to journalism. So he took a pretty big pay cut and suddenly our salaries were much closer than they have been. But I think in my head, I still kept telling myself that that was a temporary situation. I still expected him to earn considerably more than me, even as the evidence started to mount that that may not be the case, particularly with both of us being in journalism. We did have some discussions around that and in particular, when I got that job in management at that point, he was on contract.

Jen Barrett: So we realized that my income and my income prospects were probably greater at that particular point. Certainly I was the one who had secured the mortgage in part because I had a full-time job and it's very difficult when you are on contract to get approved. So we realized that my income was really critical to the household and so that launched a whole series of discussions about how is this going to work. I'm not going to say it was easy. We had to have a lot of really difficult discussions because I was pregnant with our second son when I moved into the breadwinner role. In my mind, again, I thought, "Oh, this is sort of a temporary situation where I'm going to take on this really demanding role so we can get the mortgage. I'll keep doing this."

Jen Barrett: Then I found I really enjoyed it. I realized I really am quite ambitious and so I wasn't sure I wanted to give up that role, but at the same time, for a while I was also trying to be the primary caregiver and that, as anyone who has tried to do both can tell you, is almost impossible to sustain. So it led to some really emotional and candid conversations with my husband about what role are we each going to take here and how are we going to divide all the responsibilities, household responsibilities, caregiving, breadwinning, in a way that feels fair to each of us?

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what is the lesson from your story?

Jen Barrett: I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth.

Jen Barrett: So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Bobbie Rebell: You also brought with you in everyday money tip.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbie Rebell: It's a very good gut check and I think it's something that sounds easy, but we don't really do that a lot. We don't usually just kind of pause and sit down and really think about that and maybe even write down a few things that we want to do. I find when you write things down, sometimes they stick a little bit better. I don't know. All right, we got to shift gears because I don't want to run out of time and we have to talk about Think Like A Breadwinner because this is a book that has been in the making for quite a long time, because it is so well researched, Jen. You spent a lot of time doing the work here and the book is chock-full of statistics that are ... Some of them would just blow my mind. If you could share with us just one statistic that's sort of your elevator pitch to get this book, what is that one stat that stands out?

Jen Barrett: Well, I think one of the most significant stats is that half of moms in this country today are contributing at least 40% of the total household earnings. That's according to the latest Institute for Women's Policy Research report. That just reinforces the fact that women's income is absolutely critical right now. I think we saw that when women started dropping out of the workforce. We could see what the impact was going to be, not just on families, but on the economy.

Bobbie Rebell: A lot of this book was already done before the pandemic, but you were still finishing it up during the pandemic. What is in the book now that would not have been pre-pandemic?

Jen Barrett: The pandemic reminded us of how important it is to take charge of our finances and to build the kind of savings and wealth that provide financial security and help us weather tough times like this. So that message of taking care of yourself and putting money into an investment account and building wealth to support you not just now but in the future is more important than ever.

Bobbie Rebell: So well said. Jen, where can people catch up with you? I know that your book is going to be everywhere.

Jen Barrett: I hope so. You can find me at jenniferbarrett.com and you can read more about the book there, and then I'm on social media all over the place. It's @jbarrettNYC on Instagram, Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn.

Bobbie Rebell: All the places.

Jen Barrett: Oh, the places. Clubhouse. Yes.

Bobbie Rebell: Yes, Clubhouse. Let's not forget that. Thanks, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Thank you.

Bobbie Rebell: Here we go. Financial Grownup tip number one. Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent. Financial Grownup tip number two, thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Bobbie Rebell: One thing I do, I always try to think of new revenue streams. My latest is Grownup Gear. You can see more about it at grownupgear.com. I hope you'll support it by checking out the merchandise. It's perfect for all of your grownup milestones. Gifts for graduation, new parents, mother's day, father's day, a new home, birthdays, or just celebrating being a grownup and kind of owning it. Discount codes available on my Instagram @bobbirebell1. Another reason to follow me on Instagram, we will be giving away copies of Jen's book and of other authors on the show. This spring, so many amazing authors are on tap and they're generously giving gifts to our Grownup community. I also want to invite everyone to join our weekly Friday at 1:00 PM Clubhouse chats in the Money Tips For Grownups club. DM me on Instagram if you need and invite to Clubhouse. Big thanks to Jen Barrett for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbie Rebell: The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books.

Bobbie Rebell: To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Don’t ask about the weather! And other tips to connect more effectively with The Lost Art of Connecting author Susan McPherson

Susan McPherson, author of the new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships shares 5 specific tips to connect and intentionally leverage your network of friends and colleagues.

Susan’s 5 Easy Tips for Daily Connection

Susan McPherson -main insta_financial grownup guide_serial connector and sustainability expert_ The Lost Art of Connecting_ The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships.png

#1 - Spend a little bit of time reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

#2 - Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener. For those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila! No more FOMO.

#3 - Ask questions. To truly build connection, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

Susan McPherson- Insta Quote #2 _financial grownup guide_serial connector and sustainability expert_ The Lost Art of Connecting_ The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships.png

#4- Let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and more reliable fashion.

#5- Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - Create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it.

#2 - Make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day.

Get your copy of The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Business Relationships today!

Follow Susan!

Twitter quote #1-Susan McPherson _financial grownup guide_serial connector and sustainability expert_ The Lost Art of Connecting_ The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships.png

Instagram - @susanmcp1
Twitter- @susanmcp1
LinkedIn- Susan McPherson
Website- www.mcpstrategies.com

Follow Bobbi!

Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: It is officially spring and that means graduation season is on. We here at the Financial Grownup Podcast, have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have durable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and the seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts, all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup gear also makes great gifts for mother's day, father's day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette parties, birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code graduation for a 15% discount, and thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast and we truly appreciate your support.

Susan McPherson: This is a way of leading yourself professionally and personally, to be of support because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey friends, today's show is going to put a smile on your face. This week's financial grownup is my dear friend, Susan McPherson. She is back to share her pandemic project, and that is her new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships. Susan is the founder and CEO of McPherson Strategies, a communications consultancy that focuses on the intersection of brands and social impact. When not in quarantine, Susan's a prominent speaker at top conferences around the globe. She's also a contributor to the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company and Forbes, and you've probably seen or heard her or read her work in the media everywhere from NPR to CNN, to USA today, the New Yorker, New York Magazine and The Los Angeles Times and many more. She is also an angel investor, and if we're going to cut to the chase, she is huge on social media. By the way, fun fact, Susan has run six marathons.

Bobbi Rebell: Her book, for us, could not come at a more perfect time. As I read the book, I got so many ideas of things that I can do to specifically enjoy spending time with people and frankly, being a better friend and being a more effective person in my business and professional relationships and just enjoying it all more. And a reminder, you're going to be tempted to take notes but please focus your attention on the gems that Susan shares. We've got a summary for you right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. Just go to the Financial Grownup Podcast dropdown menu and when you click on Susan's episode, you'll see that summary, along with all the links you need and below that, a full transcript. Here is Susan McPherson. Susan McPherson, welcome back. You are a financial grownup. We're so happy to have you here again.

Susan McPherson: Bobbi, I couldn't pick a better place to be.

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Bobbi Rebell: We are going to be talking about your new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships and what better time than now when we are just on the cusp, I hope, oh please, I hope of getting out of this debacle that has been quarantine, COVID-19 and the last year, right?

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. But I have to say, if anything, over this last year, one thing we all have realized is how much we miss human connection.

Bobbi Rebell: So true, and you are the ultimate connector. I mean, literally so funny because at the beginning of this book, you talk about the fact that some people have called you a human CRM app and that's so true.

Susan McPherson: It is something I have loved all my life so what better than to excel at something that you love doing?

Bobbi Rebell: Well as someone that has personally benefited from your generosity and your graciousness and your giving nature, I can just, first of all, attest to the truth of that. You did bring with you five practical tips for daily connection with colleagues, neighbors, and others in your community and network. That's the formal name, but you know what? Really we're talking about how to reset after everything that's been going on. What's your first tip?

Susan McPherson: Spend a little bit of time now, reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Do some old fashion navel-gazing and think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said, what is your second tip?

Susan McPherson : Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener, and I will say for those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila, no more FOMO.

Bobbi Rebell: I love that, and it reminds me, and we're going to digress just for a moment of part of your book, where you talk about creating rituals, something our mutual friend, Erica Keswin talks about in her latest book, but that could be part of getting that done, of JOMO.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. It doesn't all have to be sitting around, having cocktails. You can gather groups for taking a walk and talk. You can gather groups for a cooking class. Again, we've been doing this in some shape, way or form online, but now you have an opportunity to actually potentially maybe by the summer in small groups, doing it in real life.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, we all can't wait for that. What is your third tip?

Susan McPherson: Well, and this is a big component of the book and it's ask. Ask questions. To truly build connection, first, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

Bobbi Rebell: And one underlying theme in your book, by the way, is the importance of curiosity.

Susan McPherson: Yes. And to me, it's a drug and a positive drug because it is curiosity that leads you to the path to understand and appreciate people for where they are and see people, and most importantly, that curiosity helps you then to be able to follow up and be supportive.

Bobbi Rebell: Which is another big theme in your book, and that brings us to your fourth tip.

Susan McPherson: Yes, well, it's important of course, to ask, but we won't be successful at asking if we don't know how to listen. So number four is, let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and probably more reliable fashion.

Bobbi Rebell: That really is everything, and so let's talk about following up and let's get to your fifth tip.

Susan McPherson: My fifth tip is essentially that. Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective. I want to just caveat all of this, Bobbi, this isn't about putting everyone else before you, but this is a way of leading yourself, professionally and personally, to be of support, because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, and you know this Bobbi, you support so many women and men and probably children. That notion, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: That reminds me of some advice that your father gave you growing up that really still resonates with you and really hit home for me.

Susan McPherson: Yes, and that was to always ask first how you can be of help, before stepping up and doing.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah and what would be an example of how someone could put that into, I mean, what I love about this book also is it's so specific and practical, give us some examples first of that, of how someone would put that into their life. Then I'm going to try to squeeze it in one more question before we wrap.

Susan McPherson- Insta Quote #4 _financial grownup guide_serial connector and sustainability expert_ The Lost Art of Connecting_ The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships.png

Susan McPherson: Just a week ago, a dear friend of mine introduced me to a lovely woman who is trying to expand her portfolio. She and I had a 30 minute conversation, literally an hour after a conversation, I was able to introduce her to the executive director of an organization whose board I serve on, and literally the next day, she had an opportunity to actually lead a workshop for that organization. So that all happened within 24 hours. I didn't ask for anything in return. Having the conversation with this wonderful woman named Natalie, after that conversation, I was so impressed that I introduced her, again to the executive director of a board whose organization I serve on and was able to facilitate an opportunity for her. That was a perfect example of how it wasn't a huge lift on my part yet it enormously helped Natalie and it also helped the organization for which the board I serve on.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely, and it also goes to the fact that we get so busy in our lives, that we sometimes go through phases where we feel like we have to say no to even have time to breathe, and then you have to balance that, because you also have some good advice, you say, "Always take the meeting." Tell us more about that and why that is so important.

Susan McPherson: Well, I have the proof in the pudding for that, and that is, my company is now eight years old and seven years in, I realized that 98% of our business had been inbound, which is pretty remarkable for a consulting firm. I realized that in my twenties and thirties, all those meetings I took, that were yes, challenging at times because of course I was busy, those people came back 20, 30 years later, and it wasn't like when I was 25, I was saying, "Oh, I'm going to be calling on you in 2020 when I have a company, to see if you'll buy services from me." It was not even a glimmer in my brain. So every single person we meet is a conduit to something else, to someone else, to something new, to learn something about ourselves, and if we don't open those doors and we don't take those meetings, we are missing tremendous opportunities. I fervently believe that, and I live that every day.

Bobbi Rebell: It's so true. So many major things in my life have happened by almost chance meetings, little meetings that you didn't think were going to be meaningful, and then they do end up having a huge impact sometimes right then, as in the case you described earlier and sometimes not for years later, and that's also important. They're true friendships. The final thing I wanted to just touch on is you talk about expressing gratitude and that's something that sometimes gets lost in the hustle and bustle. I've certainly been guilty of not always properly thanking everyone that's done amazing things for me. It's tough. We get so busy and so distracted and are just keeping up with the world, certainly as we get back into, hopefully some sense of normalcy now. Talk to me more about expressing gratitude and specific ways that people can do that.

Susan McPherson : Don't overthink it. Sometimes just a quick phone call, a quick text, a DM, shining a light on socials, showcasing someone else. Those are all very immediate, quick and simple and easy. You don't have to go so far as sending flowers or sending cookies, although that's certainly a wonderful thing to do, but whatever is going to be the most expedient way, sometimes, is the best way, because that's the way it'll get done. But I think it's important to plan one bit of gratitude, every single day, and that includes gratitude for yourself.

Bobbi Rebell: And as you mentioned earlier, it's important to give, but it's also important to be practical and also look out for yourself.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely.

Bobbi Rebell: Susan, this has been so wonderful. Tell us more about where people can find out more about you. We know your book is going to be on sale, literally everywhere. So I hope people will pick it up and continue to get all of these incredible gems. It is very readable. I will tell you that.

Susan McPherson: Aww.

Bobbi Rebell: It's precise, specific, practical in all the best ways, and yet it has the warmth of your personality in it. Where can people follow up with you, once they get the book?

Susan McPherson: First of all, I am glowing. Thank you so much. Hearing that from you means the world to me, Bobbi. I have so much respect for you personally, professionally. Thank you. You can find me at my company's website, McPStrategies.com. I'm on all the social platforms with the name @SusanMcP1 and of course the book can be purchased at your local bookstores or any of the major online booksellers, and I am grateful for you to give it a shot.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Susan McPherson: Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: All right, guys, that was an awesome interview. Here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one, create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it, but you get the idea and by the way, feel free to send me your suggestions for how I can implement Susan's methodology for this, but we're going to go with the phone for now.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two, make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day. So I want to ask you guys, what little things make big impacts on your days? DM me on Instagram, @BobbiRebell1, I would love more ideas. And while you're at it, help me give away some incredible books. We are giving away copies of books from the incredible authors featured on The Financial Grownup Podcast this year, including Susan's. In order to win, you just have to take a screenshot of the podcast when you're listening to it on your phone, post it on social, so on Instagram. That's @BobbiRebell1, tag me, that's what I mean to say and DM me, to make sure that I see it.

Bobbi Rebell: And we also have a new way to win. If you are on Clubhouse, please join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Then DM me on Instagram and let me know that you joined so I don't miss it and would like to be entered to win a book. Also a reminder, if you are looking for fun and unique gifts for graduation, mother's day, father's day, birthdays, or just frankly, to treat yourself, which we all deserve, take a look at our new grownupgear.com store, the profits there help to support this free podcast. And again, we really appreciate that support. Go out, treat yourself, maybe some friends through a copy of Susan's book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships. Big thanks to Susan, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell: The financial grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator, so yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show, right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life, and this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup List. Go to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com, and if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Advice, Authors, Career, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup Guides, Productivity, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest UserMarch 23, 2021Susan McPherson, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Business Relationships, JOMO, serial connector, sustainability expert

Lessons learned from when your income goes poof! With Recalculating author Lindsey Pollak

Author Lindsey Pollak watched her thriving speaking career hit a wall when the pandemic hit a year ago. The career and workplace expert realized she had ignored her own advice, and had all her eggs in one basket. Lindsey gets refreshingly candid about how bad it got, what she did, and how we can all do better.

Lindsey Pollak- recalculating_ navigate your career through the changing world of work (3).png

Financial Grownup Tip #1: Social media is more than social. Certainly during the pandemic depending on your business, it has become an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the ones that fit your business. It’s not just about being social- it is about career success -and sometimes survival as well.

Financial Grownup Tip #2- If you are on social media- don’t forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in clubhouse- raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only but I do have invites so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on clubhouse- Money Tips for Grownups. I’d love to connect with you there.

Buy your copy of Recalculating : Navigate Your Career Through The Changing World of Work.

Follow Lindsey!

Twitter- @LindseyPollak
LinkedIn- Lindsey Pollak
Website- lindseypollak.com
Instagram- @LindseyPollak

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Twitter- @bobbirebell
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Full Transcript-

Bobbi Rebell: Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes. And thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Lindsey Pollak : I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures in speaking bookings. And my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to financial grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: It's been a year guys. If you want to get technical, it's been a year and about a week. Although most of us, frankly, lost count of the days and didn't even know which day of the week it was for a while. The pandemic put so many of our lives on hold and so many of our businesses in the tank.

Bobbi Rebell: For people who make their living talking to people in-person, they went from thriving to, well, there's no cute pun here. The business died. There was nothing there. For my friend, Lindsey Pollak, who is a top speaker and bestselling author, ironically in the career space, her career literally went poof last March with no end in sight.

Bobbi Rebell: This was literally unchartered territory for pretty much anyone alive these days. Two weeks to stop the spread was one thing, but getting back to packed rooms with over 1,000 people as she was used to, yeah, crickets. Even now. Lindsey agreed to share her experience with us in the hopes that many of us can at least relate to and get some solace from her experiences.

Bobbi Rebell: She also has, as she always has, great and specific advice on how we can better be prepared for the future and the unimaginable. She also managed to write a fantastic book in quarantine. It is called Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work. we do a little sneak peak at the end of our interview. Here is Lindsey Pollak. Lindsey Pollak, you are a financial grownup and welcome back to the show.

Lindsey Pollak : It is an honor to be back for the second time. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk about your new book, which was written in quarantine and has a lot of really relevant advice for anyone who is thinking of recalculating. That's also the name of the book. But first you brought us a very relevant story that happened to you just when quarantine was starting. And sadly, too many of us can relate to this. Tell us your money story, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I'd be happy to. So, like many people in March of 2020, everything stopped and everything changed. And I think we hear about food service people and certain jobs that you know would be destroyed by the pandemic or pushed off. Professional speakers were in that category.

Lindsey Pollak : I had at that time, been doing about 70 to 80 live speaking events per year. And I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures. I can't even say it. I stumble on the words. I lost six figures in speaking bookings and my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: Just to explain how speaking works, you had deposits. How does the contract work? Did you have to return all the deposits or did they reschedule or was it just gone?

Lindsey Pollak : So, you know what's interesting is, my contract said that the deposits were nonrefundable and that we would make our best efforts to reschedule if something got canceled. Several people took me up on that, I will say, and let me keep the deposits.

Lindsey Pollak : Several requested for their own financial difficulties to return it and I made the decision to do that, to keep the relationships because I understood that people were in really tough times. So I did return them. So it sort of went beyond the contract. And for anything that had been booked, but not yet paid, of course, that just disappeared. Bobbi Rebell: So then what?

Lindsey Pollak : It was tough. And I'll tell you a couple of things, because it's a financial podcast. Number one, just by luck, about a year before my bookkeeper had said, "You really need to have a credit line for your business." I had contacted my bank, Chase Bank, and gotten a very significant credit line because I have good credit that I'm extremely proud of. It's one of the proudest things in my life that I have good credit. And I got a significant six-figure credit line, which saved me.

Lindsey Pollak : I paid it all back ultimately over time, but having that fund to dip into to make sure that I could continue to pay my assistant and my rent and so on. I cut back on expenses tremendously, and I started reaching out. And it's really interesting as I didn't have a plan for where the money would come from, but I've always relied on the fact that relationships are where opportunities come from.

Lindsey Pollak : And I just called people, checked in, "How are you doing? What's going on? How are you?" I mean, for about four weeks, it was just, "Oh my gosh, what's happening?" And slowly but surely, a relationship with a UK firm that had been pending for a while, took off. Slowly but surely, people who had never booked for years were like, "Hey, could you do a session on how to work remotely?" And I was like, "Yes, I can." That had been one slide in my presentation. And now, suddenly that became a presentation.

Lindsey Pollak : It was nowhere near what I had projected for the year, but the year turned out okay. And this miracle moment was on May 5th. I'll never remember. I got an email from my agent about something totally different. And at the very bottom of the email, she said, "And by the way, do you think you might want to write a book during this pandemic experience? I feel like you might have something to say." And that one sentence turned into Recalculating, which we're here today to talk about.

Bobbi Rebell: So perfect. So you basically pivoted from doing speaking to going back to book writing, which you were always doing. This is I think number four, number five? I can't keep track of you, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I think of them like children and I had been writing a book every five years. And I had written the remix last year in 2019. And I say it's like my accidental fourth child. I didn't mean to have a child so quickly after my third, but so it happens. Bobbi Rebell: Well, it's a wonderful book. We're going to talk about it soon, but tell me what is the lesson for our listeners from this?

Lindsey Pollak : It's something that I think is such a cliche, but true. Necessity is the mother of invention. I was a speaker. I was like, I'm a speaker. That's what I do. And I realized I can't only be a speaker.

Lindsey Pollak : And when I look at the people I most admire in my world, people like you, it's do you have a podcast? Do you have online courses? Do you have newsletters? Do you get paid to write? And what I remembered is sometimes you go back to basics, which I think is the other lesson.

Lindsey Pollak : When I was first starting out, I didn't make enough money from speaking. So I was freelance writing. I was coaching. I was doing resume reviews. I was doing anything I could. And I realized I have to get back into that mindset that I'm not "just a speaker." And that's what led to these other opportunities.

Lindsey Pollak : Now, I don't want to say it was easy. I don't want to say I wasn't scared, or I didn't stay up at night, or I wasn't uncomfortable dipping into my savings or my credit line, which I did do. But ultimately, what got me through it, was going back to basics and realizing I have to get creative.

Bobbi Rebell: Looking back, what would you have done differently in terms of setting up your life? Would you have diversified your business more in advance?

Lindsey Pollak : Yes. Sometimes success is not so good because you get so deep into one area that you put all your eggs in one basket. And what's really funny is I've advised job seekers for years, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Even if you're happily employed, keep your network going. Don't just apply for jobs in one field." And I had to take my own advice.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said. And it's good to know that even people far along and super successful in their careers, sometimes have to take their own advice, which they move past. I love this. You brought with you an everyday money tip and I'm going to give a little bit of a spoiler. One part of this made you $2,000 in just extra cash. Tell us your everyday money tip because this is so fascinating. I had no idea this was such a big thing.

Lindsey Pollak : Okay. So at my heart, I grew up in Norwalk, Connecticut, the burbs. I am just a suburban girl. And in my high school, I remember they had all these categories, best dressed, best looking, all that. There was informal stuff that we would just send around to be silly.

Lindsey Pollak : And mine was most likely to drive a station wagon in the suburbs. Which by the way, I have not done, but my money tip was to clip coupons. And in the old days, I remember going to the grocery store with my mom and she had an envelope. Right. And she would hand the coupons to the checkout person. And apparently, I used to play that at home, handing the coupons to the checkout person. Bobbi Rebell: I think we all did.

Lindsey Pollak : I think we all did. Right. Bobbi Rebell: My mom definitely had the coupons. And a whole organizer. There was a coupon organizer box.

Lindsey Pollak : Oh yeah. A little box. Bobbi Rebell: And she would organize what she was going to bring that day. And you were waiting for the double coupon day.

Lindsey Pollak : And here we are, talking about personal finances on a podcast. So, the modern day version of that, it used to be called Ebates. Now it's called Rakuten. Rakuten is I have this little widget on my browser and on my phone that tells me that I can get cash back if you shop through Ebates or Rakuten.

Lindsey Pollak : And over the past several years, I've made $2,000 using that little widget to get little discounts on things. And yeah, of course, I look like, "Ooh, that's fine. I can get a little bit more cash back than if I shop at such and such." And it's funny. I always did it. My husband would make fun of me like, "Ooh, you got your $7.53 check today." And then I looked and I saw, wow, over a few years, I've made $2,000 back and that's real money.

Bobbi Rebell: And that was basically on money you were probably going to spend anyway. Now you might've chosen one retailer over another because of it, but still, it's money.

Lindsey Pollak : Target is my favorite one. The Target app I've saved, I think $110. We've been quarantining in Connecticut. And I think I've saved $110 this year, which is only $10 a month, but hey, I used that credit for other good stuff.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, absolutely. So I have in my hand, my early copy. This is one of my favorite perks of doing this podcast. I have an early copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work, which you wrote during quarantine. So, tell us what is different now, both in quarantine and hopefully, very soon as we emerge from quarantine, in terms of how we recalculate our careers and our life?

Lindsey Pollak : The first thing to think about is, recalculating is not one thing that you do in a moment and then it's over. Right. It's not like a fork in the road. I think we all need to be re-skilling, up-skilling pivoting, diversifying all the things that we talked about in my own story.

Lindsey Pollak : What we've learned through COVID is you cannot coast. Right. You can't just say, "Well, I'm comfortable where I am and I'm going to keep moving forward." You probably never could. But I think we all know that now more than ever.

Lindsey Pollak : And a really important piece of that, that I know you're so good at and is important to you, is if you're not getting good at virtual communication, and remote communication, and email, and texting, and Slack, and social media, you are not keeping up with the tools that you need to have to succeed now and into the future. It's no longer a nice to have. It's an absolute must have skill.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes, I am always learning different things. I mean, for example, right now, I started this merch store and I had to learn all this stuff about how to connect it to Instagram and so on. But it's actually really fun and you feel very accomplished. So, technical skills and learning new ways of doing business is very important.

Bobbi Rebell: And on that note, a lot of people have questions about how to use social media differently while we're in this pandemic, because it does become more important when we can't be social in person. Right.

Lindsey Pollak : Absolutely. But I think there are parallels. And so, the parallels are you've got to remember that each social network, if you're looking at it from a professional standpoint, like networking to find a job or new clients. Just like it's different to chat with people at the supermarket than to chat with people at a black tie gala, you have to see the social networks as different. You can't be the same or use the same language and style, or even necessarily profile photo, on Twitter as you would on LinkedIn, or on Instagram, or on Clubhouse, or what have you. So, number one is to acknowledge that they're all different.

Lindsey Pollak : Number two is I think you do use them in the same way you would in-person networking. So, you and I, let's say, may bond on Facebook because you're wearing a cute shirt or I see a cute picture of your son. I'm not going to say, "Do you have a job." Or, "Can I send you my resume?" I'm going to say, "Hey, great photo. Hey, do you want to get together and talk sometime about work stuff?" It's an entry point, just as if I saw you on the sidelines of a soccer game, we would talk about the game. I wouldn't start to launch into my sales pitch.

Lindsey Pollak : So, I think that social media should be seen as these personal moments where you might "bump into somebody." And then you take it to the next level off of that social network to have the professional conversation. LinkedIn is a bit different. I think LinkedIn is like a professional conference where people go, no one's going to be offended if you try to network professionally on LinkedIn. That's the point. It's like being at a conference. But for all the other sites, it's about building and solidifying real, authentic, personal relationships. And then you take the conversation elsewhere after that. Bobbi Rebell: And what do you think about Clubhouse? Because you're very successful on Clubhouse. I love dropping in on the rooms that you're in and the conversations. What's your take and your advice to people on how to use Clubhouse?

Lindsey Pollak : So that's a really good example of like, "I don't know, I'll give it a try. This is a new thing, and I'm going to try it." And I wasn't sure. To me, it's like a mix between listening to the radio and dropping in on a podcast or a webinar. But sometimes you get to talk.

Lindsey Pollak : What's absolutely amazing to me is how much free advice is there. I'm providing it myself. I do a career chat every Wednesday at one o'clock with a bunch of career experts and people just ask their questions. And what's really cool is, not only do we give our thoughts or advice, but other people on the call can raise their hand and say, "Hey, I know somebody." Or, "Oh, I have an idea for you."

Lindsey Pollak : And so, what's happening is like these conference moments in the Clubhouse app. So I'd really encourage people to give it a try. And if it's not for you, it's not for you, but it's just another tool where you might bond. And just funny things like bumping into each other. I was on it yesterday. I went to graduate school in Australia at this school called Monash University, which is just outside of Melbourne. Most people have never heard of it.

Lindsey Pollak : There was a woman on the call who had gone to Monash University and had moved to the United States. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, you're kidding." And we met on Clubhouse. So you just never know what kinds of moments like that can happen wherever you decide to show up, but you have to decide to show up.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely. So, everyone should follow Lindsey on Clubhouse. And also me. I'm on Clubhouse too.

Lindsey Pollak : Yeah. Bobbi Rebell: And I'm still learning the ropes, but I'm having a great time on it too. So, please follow both of us. Your book Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work is going to be available everywhere, March 23rd. Where can people get in touch with you?

Lindsey Pollak : So my website is my name, lindseypollock.com. I'll spell it for you because it's a doozy. L-I-N-D-S-E-Y-P-O-L-L-A-K. I'm the only one in the world who spells it that exact way. And I'd be delighted to connect with anyone there or on social media.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Lindsey Pollak : Thank you, Bobbi. Bobbi Rebell: Here we go. Financial grownup tip number one. Social media is a lot more than social these days. Certainly during the pandemic, depending on your business, it became an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the onesthat fit your business. It's not just about being social. It is about career success and sometimes career survival as well.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two. If you are on social media, don't forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in Clubhouse, raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only, but I do have invites, so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on Clubhouse, Money tips for Grownups. I'd love to connect with you there.

Bobbi Rebell: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a screenshot and share it on social media. And if you tag me, @bobbirebell1, that will also enter you into our book and merch giveaways. I also want to encourage everyone to pre-order a copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work by Lindsey Pollak. It is a bit complicated, but it really helps Lindsey if you pre-order it.

Bobbi Rebell: And this episode is dropping about a week before it's released, so you still have a week to get it done. And it is truly a big deal to Lindsey, so thank you for doing that. I promise you will love it. And big thanks to my friend, Lindsey Pollak, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell: The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell: Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell: While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram, @bobbirebell1, and on Twitter,

@ bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcast. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Financial Grownup Guide: OMG It’s been a year. How to improve your home office (ENCORE)

Now that we may be settling in to work from home for the long haul, it’s time to optimize our space and take out the stress so we can function like grownups. Bill Hirsch, Architect and Author of The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live

5 Easy Ways to Center Your Home on a Small Budget

Step One - Take the Homebody Quiz
Step Two - Work to improve the “earth-grounding” of your home.

Step Three – Remove the Pebbles. Pebbles are the things that create negative energy and produce emotional irritation and discord.

Step Four – Add Pearls. These are things that contribute positive energy to your home.

Step Five – Arrange furniture throughout the house in ways that provide “private” and peaceful places for individuals to enjoy some solitude.

Episode Links:

Bill’s website - www.wellcenteredhome.com
Bill’s book The Well-Centered Home; Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live

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TRANSCRIPT:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hard to believe, but we are marking an anniversary. What a year it has been for so many of us working from home, or as I've come to think about it, living at work. Remember when they said 15 days to stop the spread. Did any of us think it would be a year? Well, not me, but here we are. And whenever I get down on things, I circled back to this book I became obsessed with. It is called The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness and Happiness Where You Live. It's by architect, Bill Hirsch. And I know when he wrote it well before the pandemic, he had no idea what would happen and the impact his book might have on people like myself.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview which was recorded last year, Bill gives us five ways to improve our work from home situation. And yes, fake plants are a thing and they work. You're going to want to take notes, but pro-tip, everything you need is on my website. bobbirebell.com, including summaries of the show via show notes, but also full transcripts of every show. So just enjoy the interview. I'll be back on the other side. Here is Bill Hirsch.

Bobbi Rebell:
Bill Hirsch, So nice to have you here.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, it's nice to be with you. Thanks for inviting me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I truly enjoyed your book, The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness and Happiness Where You Live. I should also mention, in addition to being an author, you are an architect. People that read the book, that will make total sense. This is very appropriate in this time when we were spending so much time in our homes.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, it really is. Even in normal times, studies have shown that we spend somewhere around 70% of our lives in our homes so they have a huge influence on us. And now, what are we spending? 99% of our lives in our homes or a whole lot of people are. And it's made people scrutinize their home and appreciate or become uncomfortable with certain aspects of their home much more than before. I have a client right now who told me he's cleaned his garage three times.

Bobbi Rebell:
You brought with you five easy ways to center your home on a small budget. Before we get to those, I want you to explain what does it mean to center your home? Because that's sort of the basis of this book.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, centering, the term is used in the similar way to how it's used for meditation and increasing self-awareness where you're pulling the things that pull you in extremes in different directions together and getting your emotions and your psyche into a more central and calming position.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's not the same though as Feng Shui? I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly.

Bill Hirsch:
It's Feng Shui I think is the usual pronunciation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Feng Shui.

Bill Hirsch:
Yes, Feng Shui does a lot of that. It's intended to make things be more auspicious is one of the terms that they use and people take that into better fortune. That doesn't necessarily mean that per se, but it's a method, almost a strict set of rules method for making your home improve the energy around you and make your life better and happier. The difference with a well-centered home and home-centering is that it's more specifically tailored to you and your personality or what we call your homebody type.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get to the five easy ways to center your home on a small budget that you brought for us today. The first one is kind of figuring out who you are. You've put together a quiz so that we can figure this out.

Bill Hirsch:
Exactly. It's a simple 20 question quiz that's in the book and it produces results that let you know which of four homebody types you favor. But it's also a quiz that doesn't pigeonhole you or categorize you in a strict way because you can have a secondary tendency towards another homebody type.

Bill Hirsch:
And so, the purpose isn't to say, "You're this," but the purpose is to help you see more about what your personal tendencies and preferences might be, so that when you do the things to center your home, you're doing them in a way that is much more tailored and customized to you, personally.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I took the quiz. I was a Galileo. There's four different types. We don't have time to go through all of those and I'll leave it for people to see in the book. As an example, what does a Galileo mean?

Bill Hirsch:
Well, a Galileo would be a more technically oriented, scientifically minded person. And by that, I mean, a Galileo is someone who wants to know how things work. I have another homebody type, Plato. Usually, Plato wants to know why things work, but a Galileo would want to know how they work. So things that are technically oriented, demonstrate precision, things that have clearly defined edges and purposes, those would be things that would be attractive to a Galileo homebody type.

Bobbi Rebell:
Functionality. All right. Let's go to step two. You talk about earth grounding. Now, when people hear this especially if they're in urban areas, they might say, "Well, how am I going to do that?" You have some ways. It's about connecting your home with nature, but you have some ways to do that even if you are not on a beautiful farm or something in the country.

Bill Hirsch:
Right. There have been a number of medical studies that show that people actually recover from surgeries or illnesses faster when they're exposed to nature. And they found that this also works and provides that benefit when they're exposed to images of nature. So, if you live on the 18th floor of a high rise apartment and you have windows on one side, and that's a view of another apartment building, you can still enhance your earth grounding aspect by including images of nature, landscape scenes, items that are nature. I always suggest a bonsai tree being a very good type of an element, to add a pearl to add to your home because it's miniaturized nature and requires some degree of maintenance, which is a good aspect.

Bill Hirsch:
If you don't have enough windows to look out to all sides of your home, mirrors can be a very easy way to add a semblance of a window on a non-windowed wall. This could be a simple framed mirror. It does not necessarily meaning a giant wall of mirrors, but a frame mirror implies a window, especially if it reflects of the true window on the other side of the room.

Bobbi Rebell:
I also want to circle back to what you said about the plant. It's interesting because many people would say, "I'm going to get a plant that's low maintenance so that it stays alive." You're saying, get a plant that you do have to maintain.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, another concept that I talk about in the book that I didn't put it in the five easy steps would be peopling spaces. And peopling is a verb in this case. It means how you make spaces relate to people and how you make them be spaces where you expect to see people as opposed to these austere inhuman kinds of spaces that we often encounter.

Bill Hirsch:
One of the keys to peopling spaces is to have something that requires maintenance, because that tells your subconscious that a person has been there and a person will return because the maintenance says so. Peopling, there are a couple of other aspects and that would be things that suit the human scale, something that's the size you could imagine putting your hand on it and it would fit. Things that are similar to the size and scale of human beings. These types of things. A row of columns can be a really nice peopling aspect. And we don't think about these things overtly, but I'm telling you that inside in your inner thoughts, your mind is reacting to these things. And these are the ways that I explain why we like some spaces much better than we'd like other spaces, even if we can't put it into words.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Step three, this is something that I have already started doing now that I read your book. And that is removed the pebbles. We are not talking literally pebbles, my friends.

Bill Hirsch:
Right. Pebbles is charm that I've applied to things that provide negative energy or our irritants there. The term comes from a pebble in your shoe. A pebble in your shoe, you might walk along and tolerate, but no matter what you do, it is still an irritant and it's still disrupting things. And the only cure is to remove the pebble.

Bill Hirsch:
So in your home, you have a lot of things that are potentially pebbles. Things like light bulbs that are burned out, doors that squeak or stick, things like that. A clutter is certainly a pebble. Any of these kinds of things that just aren't in the right places.

Bill Hirsch:
One of the things I rail against are lights that are mispositioned. Like in your kitchen, if the light's behind you and you step up to the countertop, your head and your body cast a shadow on the area where you're trying to work. And that's clearly a pebble that you might put up with. But if you instead had a light that was overhead, that shined down on the surface where you're working, you'll be much happier and you won't have that negative influence. So, pebbles are things that need to be removed or remedied.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that goes especially for workspaces, is to really pay attention to your lighting in our workspace. You talk a lot in the book about different kinds of lights and how that can impact how we feel and how productive we are.

Bill Hirsch:
Exactly. Lighting is measured by its color rendition index. That would be the amount of the spectrum that it actually emits. If it's missing part of that, then the light can be uncomfortable. Early fluorescents and most fluorescents are missing a part of the spectrum and they tend to make things look gray and give people an uncomfortable pallor to their face. And you don't really want that. The new led lights, some of them are very blue and harsh. They have too high of color temperature. You want to look for that when you buy the lights. And you find some that are more daylight type that are a warmer color temperature. They will literally make you feel better and it certainly makes everything look better. These are really important things for homework spaces to get all of that right.

Bobbi Rebell:
And speaking of that, let me just ask you here. You did talk a lot about color as well. What is the best color for a workspace at home?

Bill Hirsch:
Well, everybody in the color world will tell you that the color that produces the least potentially negative reaction will be grays. And grays that are warmer grays, meaning they have a brown undertone rather than cooler grays that have a blue undertone tend to be even more comforting. Although, that's not to say, stay completely away from the cooler grays, just be careful that they can get to be a little harder. And then, green is always a comfortable color for people. Colors like red and orange, they're specific colors that really, you need to clearly favor them. They can be disruptive. They might make a space too energetic for working. And then, mild blues are good too, but be a little careful with those because they can get to be too blue. That's where the grays maybe are the safest choice.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes. I actually have a gray area where I work. And by the way, you do give specific literally, paint colors in the book that people can look up and choose those, or choose something similar if that's what works for them. Let's move on to step four. And this is a little bit more positive. We're talking about bringing a positive energy into your home. You call this adding pearls.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, pearls are the counterpoint to the pebbles. Pearls, if you think about them, they were an irritation that got into the oyster like a piece of sand or something, and the oyster started building a coating around that and produced a beautiful pearl out of it. So pearls in your home are the same sorts of things. These would be things that you would want to add into your space that give you delight, attract your attention, make you think. You, as a Galileo might like things that express their technical aspects or are intricate.

Bill Hirsch:
One of the examples I often use would be a clock that is mechanical and shows you how it is mechanical even though it's a bit of an old fashioned type of thing, maybe a relic from our past now that we're digital, everything. But they're fascinating. And they're the kind of thing that... Pearls are the sorts of things that if you glanced at them and not even consciously examine them, they still do positive things to your psyche. And that's the whole idea of how your well-centered home can support your emotional wellbeing and mindfulness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Step five has to do with something that can be really [inaudible 00:16:37] free, just arranging your furniture in ways that provide private and peaceful places so you can have some solitude, something a lot of us really need with all of this work from home and live pretty much all the time from home these days. Tell us more about that.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, you're right. It's a critical aspect of working from home. You can't really just set up your desk as part of the kitchen table and then expect that you're going to work efficiently and comfortably. That's going to wear on you. So if you can create a spot, and it can be a very small area and define it with some aspect of the furnishings, it might be a small screen like the one behind me here in my office, that just sort of define the space and when you're in it, you know where the edges are. And also, the other people in your family know that's the office and it becomes dedicated to you.

Bill Hirsch:
This is an important aspect of just sort of living in your well-centered home in that, everybody in the house needs to have a place to call their own where they can sit. It might be corner of a room. It might be a particular spot on the sofa. When they're there, they're in their own space. And then, you have other spaces that are designed for interaction with others. You need to think through these and plan them out more purposefully instead of just letting them happen by accident.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I think that's one of the most important things, going back even to the concept of pebbles, that you need to pay attention to these things that we're so busy living our daily lives, that we haven't necessarily spent the time to proactively set up our homes. And as we settle into what for some people could be much longer than we ever expected, it's something that we really need to be more mindful of. Your book is a wonderful tool for that. Where can people find out more about you and the book?

Bill Hirsch:
You can look it all up at the website, which is www.wellcenteredhome.com. There's a lot of information there. If they would like to buy the book or read a sample from it, it's available on amazon.com. Just type in The Well-Centered Home. It'll take you right there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, it's been a pleasure being with you. I want to hear back from you on how well-centered your home becomes.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a deal.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you know from the top of the podcast, I am obsessed with the fake plant thing. And all winter, I got a little mood boost when I looked out my window of my bedroom to my teeny-tiny New York city balcony and I saw that greenery, all fake by the way, that Bill inspired me to get. Tell me, what was your favorite tip from the interview or do you have any other tips? DM me on Instagram at bobbirebell1. On Twitter, I am @bobbirebell. And if you screen grab this podcast and post it on Instagram stories and tag me at bobbirebell1, you'll be entered to win a free book from one of our Financial Grownup authors and merch from my new grownupgear.com store.

Big thanks to Bill Hirsch, author of The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness and Happiness Where You Live. Go get his book for more great tips. And it goes without saying, but I'll say it, thank you to Bill Hirsch for helping us all work from home like the financial grownups we are.

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda [Savan 00:20:28] is our talent coordinator and content creators. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup.

Stay in touch on Instagram at bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend, and maybe leave a review On Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Advice, Authors, Financial Grownup Guides, ProductivityGuest UserMarch 9, 2021Bill Hirsch, small budget, financial grownup guide, The Well-Centered Home, center your home, simple steps to increase mindfulness

Financial Grownup Guide: The SPAC trend. What are they and why they have become a huge Wall Street trend?

The buzz on SPACs keeps building. Bobbi shares what is driving the trend, what a SPAC is, and what investors need to know about them.

Pros of SPAC

#1: It lowers the risk of going public. Let’s face it: a lot can go wrong. Companies are worried that market volatility could tank their public debut. Merging with a SPAC gets them a capital influx much faster and easier.

#2: It’s faster. Space have no financial history- so the only track record is the reputation of the management teams. For a company, merging with a SPAC can get them funding in a few months. The traditional IPO route which involves a lot of paperwork with the SEC can take as much as 6 months, sometimes longer.

#3: More control over valuation. With a SPAC merger, the company can negotiate a fixed valuation with the sponsors.

Cons of SPAC

#1: Shady history. Back in the 1980’s SPAC’s were known as “Blank Check Companies” The industry was full of fraud, and known for scamming investors. A federal law was even passed to crack down on them. Now there are some guardrails in place- for example, if an investor does not approve of a company that the SPAC is merging with they can get their money back.

#2: A successful SPAC can be incredibly lucrative for the for the sponsor, to the point where there is a concern that they might merge the SPAC with a less than ideal company just to get their big payday. Oh- and generally they have to make a deal within 2 years- so there’s a ticking clock to make something, sometimes anything, happen.

#3: Investors should be aware that the company that has gone public by merging with the SPAC has not gone through the vetting process of doing all the financial audits and requirements that happen in a traditional initial public offering. So you have to wonder: what do you not know about the company? In other words, it is easier for the company, but riskier for the investor.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Financial Grownup Guide: What is a SPAC- and why it is such a hot trend on Wall Street

Hi friends!

If you pay attention to the money and investing related news, which you should be, you have probably been hearing about SPACS- which stands for special purpose acquisition company. They have actually been around for decades-but the buzz has really been building lately. Their rep is that they are last resorts for small companies to go public, because they couldn’t raise money on the open market. But that doesn’t really explain why they are having such a big moment right now.

So here’s what we are going to go over in this episode:

-What is a SPAC

-Why would a company go public using a SPAC rather than the traditional route?

-What are SPACs so popular now- and what role did the global pandemic play in the trend?

-I'll tell you about the shady history of SPAC's

-What are the risks for investors?

Before we get into it- I do want to welcome everyone. If you are new- this is kind of a special episode. I do these solo episodes on occasion where I talk about a money topic- usually something in the news.

But most of our episodes focus on having a role model as a guest- a financial grownup as we like to say, sharing a money story that had a big impact on their life and then the lessons we can all learn from their experience. We also have them share everyday money tips that we can put to work right away. If you enjoy this podcast I hope you will take a moment to subscribe, and share it with friends or family that you think might enjoy it. One easy way is just to take a screenshot of the show and share it on social media- and please tag me @bobbirebell1 on instagram so I can thank you.

Back to SPACs. Let’s first go over exactly what a SPAC is- and is not.

Think of a SPAC as a shell company set up to buy another company- except it doesn’t necessarily know what that company will be. Usually a team of investors raise the money first- but again- very often without a target company. It goes public as a Special Purpose Acquisition Company but it contains no company. All it has is money kept in a trust.

Then we have companies that need money- and are on the hunt for the right way to get it.

So to simplify- on one side we have money with no company, and on the other side we have a company, that it looking for money.

This is different from the more common way for companies to raise big money in the public markets with a standard initial public offering. But that is really complicated- and expensive. There’s a ton of paperwork, financial audits and regulations. There are road shows, and pitch meetings with institutional investors. And it is super risky. Some of the risks the company can control, but the truth is the depending on what is going on in the world at the time the company wants to go public, a lot of how well that company will do- it can’t control.

But they have become a really big trend on Wall Street recently. 242 SPACs were introduced in 2020, quadruple the number raised in 2019, according to SPAC Insider. The average size of a SPAC in 2020 was $335 million, that is almost 10 times the amount in 2009.

And there are some interesting reasons why that we are going to talk about.

Reason #1: It lowers the risk of going public. Let’s face it: a lot can go wrong. Companies are worried that market volatility could tank their public debut. Merging with a SPAC gets them a capital influx much faster and easier.

Reason #2: It’s faster. Space have no financial history- so the only track record is the reputation of the management teams. For a company, merging with a SPAC can get them funding in a few months. The traditional IPO route which involves a lot of paperwork with the SEC can take as much as 6 months, sometimes longer.

Reason #3 More control over valuation. With a SPAC merger, the company can negotiate a fixed valuation with the sponsors.

All this has a lot of appeal during the global pandemic, given how much uncertainty there has been in the global markets. It got a lot harder to raise money the traditional way. So SPAC’s can provide a viable option for capital starved companies to access funding.

This all sounds great- so what’s the catch?

Well first- their shady history. Back in the 1980’s SPAC’s were known as “Blank Check Companies” The industry was full of fraud, and known for scamming investors. A federal law was even passed to crack down on them. Now there are some guardrails in place- for example, if an investor does not approve of a company that the SPAC is merging with they can get their money back.

Second: A successful SPAC can be incredibly lucrative for the for the sponsor, to the point where there is a concern that they might merge the SPAC with a less than ideal company just to get their big payday. Oh- and generally they have to make a deal within 2 years- so there’s a ticking clock to make something, sometimes anything, happen.

Third: Investors should be aware that the company that has gone public by merging with the SPAC has not gone through the vetting process of doing all the financial audits and requirements that happen in a traditional initial public offering. So you have to wonder: what do you not know about the company? In other words, it is easier for the company, but riskier for the investor.

Which brings us to why you should be paying attention to the trend. In my opinion- and this is an opinion, we should look carefully at why a company would choose to go public this way. That does not mean it is not a good investment. It just means, it did not go through the traditional red tape. To be clear, many companies go through the red tape, and no one takes the time to read all the details of what they have disclosed to potential investors.

That said, once a company is publicly traded, as the calendar mandates, it will have to comply with the laws regarding disclosure. So maybe, if you want to invest in a company that used a SPAC to go public, you might consider taking your time, and getting more information before you jump in.

Before I let you go- a reminder that I am on a campaign to boost financial literacy by giving out free books. If you want to win a book that has been grownup list approved- all you need to do is either do a screen grab of the podcast while you are listening to it - and post it on instagram and tag me at bobbirebell1- or write a review on apple podcasts and email it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. You could win a book by one of the authors that has been on the show, or some of the merch from the grownupgear store which you can check out at grownupgear.com.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Advice, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Financial Independence, Investing, MoneyGuest UserMarch 2, 2021SPACs, Bobbi Rebell, Investing Tips, Investor, stock market, wall street, Financial Grownup Guide, Financial Advice, Financial Grownup

Money Tips On Buying An Online Business

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Money Tips

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4 Money Tips to Recover from a Financial Crisis

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5 Money Tips for Planning for the Unexpected

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A Little About The Show

Money Tips and Lessons Learned

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Dr. Elizabeth Dunn’s 5 Money Tips to achieve financial wellness

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Catherine’s Money Story-

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Tiffany’s Money Story

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