Everyday we are seeing higher prices on everything from gas to the food we eat. But all is not lost. There are opportunities not just to cut costs as a consumer, but also to be smart as an investor. We talk with Andrew Graham of Jackson Square Capital for tips on how to navigate investing with inflation on the rise. 

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grown-up friends. A big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart.

Bobbi Rebell:
This book was not easy to write because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. And I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest, and it was a lot of work, but I really loved doing it. And I'm really happy with how it came out.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them, and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So, I truly appreciate it, and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Andrew Graham:
With elevated levels of inflation, with higher bond yields, that's a recipe probably for outperformance in value sectors. And the value sectors presently are: financials, materials, and energy.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because, you know what? Grown-up life is really hard but, together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grown-up friends. I hope everyone's enjoying spring, wherever you are. It's a great time for a road trip, if you can afford the gas. And that is not the only thing with sky high prices. I mean, looking for a home these days can make even the most tenacious grown-ups feel like giving up.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, where is the upside? Well, there are investment opportunities here, and that's what we're going to talk about today. Our guest is Andrew Graham. He is the founder and managing partner at Jackson Square Capital. And it was really a privilege to be able to bring you his insights that he shares with his high-net-worth clients.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing to pay special attention to in the interview is what he has to say about the kinds of banks that are going to outperform and why. We also talk about energy and why that could be a place for dividends and a hedge against inflation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Andrew also has some compelling things to say about the housing market and whether buying a home will become more affordable anytime soon.

Bobbi Rebell:
Listen closely. There's a lot to learn from this guy. Here is Jackson Square Capital's, Andrew Graham.

Bobbi Rebell:
Andrew Graham, you're a financial grown-up. Welcome to the podcast.

Andrew Graham:
Thank you. I'm glad to be on the pod.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're so happy to have you. So, let me just give a quick introduction. You're the founder and managing partner of Jackson Square Capital, an investment and financial advisory, out in San Francisco, one of my favorite cities.

Bobbi Rebell:
I asked you to come on because so many of our listeners are concerned about inflation. They go to the grocery store. They go to the gas pump. The prices are just frightening, more and more, but there's some upside to this when it comes to investing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, so, I asked you to come and talk about some strategies and some sort of mindset that we can take to understand that there are things about inflation that can present opportunity and, certainly, in some ways, at least mitigate some of the damage that we're seeing in our day-to-day consumer life with some wealth management strategies. So, thank you for coming on.

Andrew Graham:
My pleasure. So, I can start with inflation, just really quick. For us, in our world, as an in investment manager, our visibility really extends. It extends six months, for sure. And then, the further you go, the less clear things become, but we can kind of see out nine months and feel pretty good, forecasting nine months forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's start with equity. Where are the best sectors, in terms of equity investments for your money, as inflation continues to be a concern?

Andrew Graham:
Yeah. I think the best places to be, in terms of maybe equity style, rather than growth, sort of tech-centric portfolios, we have ... These are all household names now over the last 12 years. Everybody's made sure they've owned plenty of them. It's been pretty apparent that that where ... that was the only game in town.

Andrew Graham:
But with elevated levels of inflation, with higher bond yields, that's a recipe probably for outperformance in value sectors. And the value sectors presently are: financials, materials, and energy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, so let's break that down. Okay. So, let's start with financials.

Andrew Graham:
Banks have what's called ... make-most-of-their-money, the bulk of their money, on net interest margins. It's the difference between the rate that they borrow or receive their money from the Fed, and the rate that they earn on their loans.

Andrew Graham:
And, so, as short-term loans reset, they don't even need, really, to drive loan growth, although we see the beginnings of that happening in December and, again, here in Q1. They don't need to really get it out of loan growth. They can just reset their short-term loans, as they mature for those people rolling them over, and those loans at higher levels just reflecting where bond yields, short-term bond yields, are.

Andrew Graham:
So, again, deposits, they're not going to pay anything on deposits, let's assume. And they're going to be earning more for their loans. So, their net interest income, which is, again, the bulk of their earnings at a bank, is going to rise. And I see that going on for a while now.

Andrew Graham:
We, at Jackson Square Capital, have a preference for, sort of share takers, when it comes to the banks. And those are generally the regional banks, so not the super gigantic money centers that have been gobbling up community banks over the last, whatever, 20 or 30 years. It's the regional banks.

Andrew Graham:
And the ones that are most attractive, in our opinion, are the ones that are sort of high tech, high touch. And you can see them, just taking share in major markets like this one. So, in San Francisco where we sit, First Republic has been taking share for years. And we just see that continuing with lots of loan growth. So, we like First Republic, and we also like Silicon Valley Bank, also local. Again, taking share, lots of loan growth, lots of private equity cash, on the sidelines.

Andrew Graham:
And as that private equity money gets deployed in investments, they're going to make what they're called capital call loans, which are short-term loans. And, again, those will reset at higher rates.

Andrew Graham:
So, probably the bank that's the most sensitive to interest rates and that benefits the most, is Silicon Valley Bank.

Bobbi Rebell:
Interesting. And the second equity sector that you mentioned to pay attention to is materials. Tell us more about that and why.

Andrew Graham:
So, materials are going to have the pricing power, the ability to benefit from their own pricing power. They have relative ... for sort of fixed costs. Most of these plants are built out. Some of these chemical companies, for example, Olin. There are some big barriers to entry. Some of them are dangerous products to make, but they are very necessary, and they have mostly industrial uses.

Andrew Graham:
So, if we're right, and inflation stays elevated, and the cycle has further to go. That's the recovery cycle, and we think it does, and I'll go into that if you'd like. Then there's more upside for those companies, as they have pricing power. And then there's an industrial, sort of recovery, narrative that goes on as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the third area you mentioned was energy.

Andrew Graham:
We expect energy stocks to outperform over the next, that six to nine-month window we discussed, and maybe beyond. There's some structural supply issues going on in the industry where, either from political pressures or pressure from shareholders to return capital, many of these oil and gas exploration and production companies, for example, are being incented to return capital to shareholders, rather than develop new production and drill new wells, for example.

Andrew Graham:
So, we expect, even if ... And we do expect U.S. oil and gas production to rise this year, in 2022, but we don't see it matching demand levels. So, look for elevated WTI crude prices, and beneficiaries there include the majors that pay big dividend yields, like the Exxon and the Chevron of the world, of course. And then in exploration and production companies, maybe like Marathon Petroleum, Ovintiv, also, is a midcap name that stands out.

Andrew Graham:
If oil prices stay just above $65, modeling that out, based on their ... based on Ovintiv's free cash flow generation from the past, they're going to have the ability to pay back the entire market cap of the company within five years. So, lots of opportunity there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I think, with respect to stocks in general, you've talked about the importance of paying attention to companies that give money back to shareholders, whether that be in the form of stock buybacks or in dividends.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that is something that, at the end of the day, money is money, and they're giving people money. That's something that investors should pay attention to.

Andrew Graham:
I think so. I would say, with one qualifier, I think it works best in that energy sector. And the reason is, is that the decarbonization efforts are there for a reason.

Andrew Graham:
By the time you get out, 10 years, and again, I know we wish it was a shorter window, but saying you move out further and further, demand for alternative energy sources actually starts to kind of come together. The demand is there now. The problem is, there's just not the capacity to meet it. And, so, demand chooses the old forms right now. But as the substitutes become available, I think we'll see a shift.

Andrew Graham:
So, in most cases, our preference, when I was talking about banks, I chose two banks that don't return capital to shareholder in any big way. As a matter of fact, they raise capital. And the reason why our preference there, is those are longer-term investments. Both of those banks have outperformed the large cap money centers over the last two decades, and we expect it to continue in the current environment, probably at an accelerated rate because they do have loan growth.

Andrew Graham:
But I think an energy return of capital is a good plan, and it's a good thing, whether it's in the form of dividends or share repurchases and just, what are you going to do with all that free cash flow generation? So, it's got to go to the shareholders. And it's a meaningful way, I think, of hedging against elevated rates of inflation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's just touch quickly on real estate because there's so many people frustrated by higher home prices. And look, we have to be realistic. You probably aren't going to make a ton of money if you're buying a home, just to live in or as an investment, anytime short term. But that doesn't mean it's not an area that people should be paying attention to.

Andrew Graham:
Yeah. If you look at the supply and demand within the housing world, there's just ... There is limited supply, and demand has been sort of running at a accelerated clip since there was glimmers of hope the pandemic might be ending.

Andrew Graham:
So, you've seen some sharp upticks in almost all geographic areas in this country. And I don't know if that's going to slow down here in the near term. So, we're kind of modeling in 12% home price appreciation for this year. And we think the economy can withstand that kind of appreciation. So, I don't think the affordability factor is going to mean much here in the near term.

Andrew Graham:
And in the short term, as bond yields rise, inflation's going up, so bond yields are rising. As bond yields rise, there's sort of a get-it-while-you-can attitude on the part of consumers to lock in their mortgage rates now, versus six, nine months, well into the future.

Andrew Graham:
So, you'll see, I think, accelerated pick-up in housing demand as, in the short term, as bond yields have already risen. And I think they can ... there's further room for bond yields to go higher.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, continued frustration for people looking to buy a home, but good news for real estate investors.

Andrew Graham:
I think so. Again, eventually, price cures price, but affordability, even though it's the worst it's been since the global financial crisis, affordability measures, they are nowhere near where they were leading into the global financial crisis.

Andrew Graham:
So, I don't think it's a cycle killing kind of thing, like I said before. And, so, yeah. It's going to be competitive, I think. Home-buying, home shopping is going to be competitive for the near term, and maybe even accelerate here, as bond yields have gone up, and people feel a need to get it done now, rather than later.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Andrew, where can people learn more about you and Jackson Square Capital?

Andrew Graham:
You can go onto our website, of course, which is jacksonsquarecap.com. I write a daily email, which I think helps me stay informed. It's called Morning Notes, and you can sign up there if you'd like to receive it, but happy to be of help today. Thanks for having me on. I've been told I have a face for podcasting, so this is such a [inaudible 00:15:05].

Bobbi Rebell:
You are a lot of fun to have on. Thanks, Andrew.

Andrew Graham:
Anytime.

Bobbi Rebell:
There was a lot to take away from that. You were probably tempted to take notes, but if you're a regular listener, you know don't have to. We always have you covered with show notes and full transcripts on my website. Go to bobbirebell.com. That's B-O-B-B-I R-E-B-E-L-L.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
There, you will, of course, also find information about my new book, Launching Financial Grownups, as well as how to be in touch if you would like me to come speak to your organization. I have both virtual and in-person programs, that you can learn more about by clicking on Work with Bobbi. It's the tab on the upper right corner of my website. I hope to hear from you guys soon.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, I want to hear what you are investing in, as inflation continues to rise. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1, and on Twitter @bobbirebell.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, by the way, I did what I didn't think I would ever do. I opened a TikTok account. I am still figuring it out. So, check out my videos, and give me some pointers. The handle is bobbirebell.

Bobbi Rebell:
Big thanks to Jackson Square Capital's, Andrew Graham, for sharing some great insights on investing and helping us all be financial grown-ups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey, as a financial grown-up.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast, is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
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Bobbi Rebell:
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Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grown-up friends, and treating yourself as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grown-ups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Futurist Amy Webb, co-author of The Genesis Machine, explains how money influences the development synthetic biology, and the risks we need to be aware of before it is too late. 

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Follow Amy!

• Facebook - @FuturistAmyWebb

• Twitter - @amywebb

• LinkedIn - @amywebb

• Website - https://amywebb.io

• Amy’s book - The Genesis Machine

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends, a big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to rate because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. And I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you. So, first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest. And it was a lot of work, but I really love doing it and I'm really happy with how it came out. On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So, I truly appreciate it and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Amy Webb:
Hermès, they've got a bag coming out this year made of something that looks exactly like leather but is made out of a synthetic process. So, it's not like chemical-based, it's totally organic. It's just engineering cells to produce something different. That's going to retail for $4,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups. Because you know what, grownup life is really hard, but together, we got this. Hey grownups, we are going off script today for an epic topic because futurist Amy Webb is my guest. She is going to share information that you have not heard before but that we all need to be paying attention to because it is going to change everything you think you know literally about life. She basically reveals a lot about where money goes in our society. What is getting funded is going to shape the very genetics of humans in the future. It also, by the way, could mean the end of hangovers and diets.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, look out for $4,000 plus Hermès bags not even made of leather. Yes, you heard that right. Now, at first, Amy's new book, The Genesis Machine: Our Quest to Rewrite Life in the Age of Synthetic Biology, which he co-wrote with scientist Andrew Hessel, may sound a bit intimidating, I certainly was. But I promise you, after our conversation, you're going to go out, you're going to get the book and you're going to read it. And by the way, she has many different accolades but Amy Webb is the founder and CEO of the Future Today Institute and a professor at NYU. Let's just get into it. Here is The Genesis Machine author, Amy Webb. Hey, Amy Webb, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Amy Webb:
Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
That is, in this case, sort of besides the point because I am having you on for reasons that are about money but also at a new level. Money plays a big role in the topic we're going to talk about, which is synthetic biology. We're going to get to that in a minute. But first, I want to just put it out there. Your futurist, your latest book is called The Genesis Machine: Our Quest to Rewrite Life in the Age of Synthetic Biology. It's about an emerging technology that's going to allow us basically to edit and design new forms of life. So, set us up here. Tell us about what all this means.

Amy Webb:
Sure. And I should qualify maybe, futurist sounds like a strange job title and so it could be easy to dismiss. Me, if I have to say, I would too. That's a ridiculous made-up sounding job title. My academic background is game theory in economics. This is a branch of research called strategic foresight. And so, we use data and build out models to try to see what's happening in the present and anticipate what could happen in the future. So, I just bring that up first because this is kind of a weird book. It's a book about the technology that pretty soon is going to allow us to edit, redesign, or totally design from scratch new forms of life. And that's important because it gives us the ability to deal with existential threats like climate change, we just got some pretty horrifying news from the UN a couple days ago, and also to manage and mitigate novel pathogens.

Amy Webb:
So, we've got risks on the horizon, but this is the same technology that helps us potentially improve the human condition and improve longevity. The book is about this area of science that kind of incorporates gene editing, and DNA sequencing, and synthetic biology. These are new relatively areas of science and tech that combines engineering, and design, and computer science. And essentially, what this allows researchers to do is to program biology the way that you might program a computer. If you kind of forgot what you learned in biology class in high school, it's totally fine because this book is written for everyday people to understand what's coming because what's coming is it is enormous. I think 10 years from now, we're going to look back at this moment in time and be able to see how clearly things were changing right before our eyes. I think we're going to eventually be talking about synthetic biology the way we talk about AI today.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this is, in fact, has a lot in common with AI which you covered in your previous book, including the story of where the money flows. Can you talk a little bit about the fact that a lot of science is very underfunded but yet it's interesting who is funding this and what money is going into this and what purpose that's going to have in the future.

Amy Webb:
Right. So, everybody's thinking about NFTs in the metaverse right now, but this is kind of a really interesting area that some big unusual names are paying very close attention to. Bill Gates is a big proponent of this tech and a big investor in this space. But so is Eric Schmidt. Eric Schmidt, as some of you probably know, used to be the head of Google. One of the things that's interesting is that there's actually kind of an overlap between the VCs, and the hedge funds, and a lot of the investment community that funds AI, and those who are funding the future of synthetic biology, as strange as that sounds. I can give you a concrete example. In part because of SARS-CoV-2, which is the virus that causes COVID-19, this acted as a catalyst. Suddenly, everybody was trying to find a way to test and diagnose and then treat this horrible pathogen.

Amy Webb:
But that had some interesting knock-on effects. I think it was like two weeks ago, some biotech veterans raised $3 billion, that is billion with a B, to create a new company called Altos Labs on the premise that the fundamental machinery of life, which is cells, can be reprogrammed. If they raised $3 billion, think of what the valuation, the pitch must be. I mean, it's like incomprehensible. I bring this up just to say this is not a bunch of weirdos playing biohacker in their garage. This is real stuff and this is on a long time horizon, and there are majors in the space that are investing. But also, Google has a division dedicated to research in this space, so does Microsoft. Microsoft is trying to figure out how to use DNA as a storage device, which is kind of insane, right? But they're working in this space too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah and I should say what you mean is to store data inside of DNA-

Amy Webb:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
... which is bananas. One of my favorite parts of the book is you talk about the futures and you talk about different scenarios of how this could be used in our practical lives. And when you think about those scenarios, you think, "What would people pay for this?" For example, you talk about the idea of no longer having hangovers, of no longer having to diet when you want to lose weight because of the things that we can do to our food and to the way that we consume food. Tell us more about that, because to me, that's an investment I want to make-

Amy Webb:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
... both as a consumer, I want that technology, and also as an investor.

Amy Webb:
Right. On the consumer side of things, I think it's worth noting that you can already get an entire genome sequenced for less than the cost of a pair of Nike Air Jordans. And that's pretty spectacular that prices come down by orders of magnitude since the first human genome, with the first draft was completed in the early 2000s. What does that mean? That means that a lot of people are sending off their samples to 23andMe and similar types of services, which pre-COVID probably was a select few. But in the age of COVID, we're used to giving our DNA samples to anybody who feels like, literally in New York City, I had to get a COVID test a couple months ago and I went to a guy in a van. And I was like, "Yeah, take my data. I guess that's what we're doing now," which is terrifying at any rate.

Amy Webb:
There's just this entire economy that's blossoming, that's blossoming now, but there's some practical reasons why. So, with regard to Microsoft, at some point, our computers can only get so small and they can only get so powerful. And we also have a geopolitical problem because most of our semiconductors come from a troubled region of the world. So, I think some of what's going on here is, can we reduce some of the soul-crushing uncertainty of our supply chains? And can we shrink components down to like nanoscale? Which again, I know it sounds insane, but there's a company called Roswell Technology that just did this. They just made an announcement of the world's first molecular chip. It has 16,000 sensors on it, smaller than the size of a fingernail. It makes use of biology as a computing platform.

Amy Webb:
So, again, I know all this sounds crazy, but their practical reasons that we describe in the scenarios, obviously, this changes food. It means that a couple of Super Bowls from now, the 1.45 billion with a B chicken wings that we consume on a single day in the United States won't have to come from 750,000 chickens. We could get it all out of a bioreactor. And bioreactors could be in every town and every city so it drastically shorten supply chains. In the beauty space, that's actually a pretty mature area where this research is already being applied, so just different approaches to products that make your cells work for you versus a cream or something that layers on top of your skin and doesn't really solve any problems to totally different ways that were going to produce materials.

Amy Webb:
I've seen some leather already that is made out of mycelium. It's made out of the fibrous material that connects mushrooms. And you would never know the difference. In fact, Hermès, I don't, obviously I carry many Hermès's bags. I don't know how to say that correctly, I'm not fancy. They've got a bag coming out this year made of something that looks exactly like leather but is made out of a synthetic process. So, it's not like chemical-based, it's totally organic. It's just engineering cells to produce something different. That's going to retail for $4,000, I think.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. So wait, so just to circle back though in terms of the not gaining weight and in terms of the not having a hangover, because I know people want to hear that.

Amy Webb:
Yeah. So, there is a product, I think it's in the market already, it's an enzyme. It's kind of like functions a little bit like a probiotic. So, the idea is before were a night out drinking, you would take this enzyme and probably still get pretty drunk if that's what you were trying to do but it would prevent the after effects, the hangover part. But what's really interesting is, couldn't you just engineer a molecular whiskey or like a bioengineered wine to have that enzyme side of it already so that you just don't suffer those ill effects afterwards? And that research is underway and you can already buy some functional beverages that are hoping to do some of that.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the dieting?

Amy Webb:
The dieting is something that people are looking at. That one's a little bit more tricky because there is what causes hunger and then there's the mental, like the part of you that wants to eat, so there's deeply rooted psychological things that have to do with that as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, it's out there but it's a longer timeline. All right. We don't have that much time left and I want to touch on risks. You talk about nine risks in the book. We can't go out to all of them. But one thing that I find fascinating is that you talked about, we gave our DNA to these random trucks on the street to get these tests for COVID. We leave DNA all over the place. And this is true, for example, you talked about the example of CEOs. They leave DNA all over the place. Someone could program, could somehow take the DNA and you could explain this better than I can, but they can be a little bit mischievous. Talk through that scenario of what could happen and how this could affect the company if the CEO's health is compromised through having their DNA effectively stolen.

Amy Webb:
Right. So, I know this sounds insane, but if you recall, President Macron of France met with Putin just before Russia started its attack and he refused to have a COVID test because he didn't want his data housed within Russia. And some people made fun of him but he was really smart to do that. A couple of years ago, there was a artists collective/activists collective that said that after WEF, so after the World Economic Forum Meeting in Davos, I was actually at that one, I'm assuming that I am nowhere near important enough that anybody went around to collect my stuff, my data, but they collected used napkins and coffee cups and things from world leaders and scraped the DNA off, had it sequenced and said, "We're going to auction off your sequences to the highest bidder."

Amy Webb:
Now, that is challenging to do but it's not impossible to do. And it does beg the question, "If I have your sequence, can I engineer something, some type of virus that is maybe not deadly but is debilitating?" And if you, as a CEO or you as a global leader had like chronic stomach pain or chronic diarrhea or something like that, the question I ask is, "Well, what fiduciary responsibility do you have to report that to your board and to shareholders and what do you do about it?" I mean, that's one of these weird questions, but we're already starting to see malware show up in sort of new ways and new forms of corporate espionage that involve biology. And it's not out of the realm of possibility that we could start seeing biological malware enter the mainstream here and there, which is kind of scary.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's really scary. Okay, I'm going to pivot one last quick question.

Amy Webb:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Not a very smooth transition, but I know there's already ETFs out there that people can invest in.

Amy Webb:
Oh yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Can you share a little bit about how people can invest in this space?

Amy Webb:
Yeah. And I want to be clear, I'm not specifically making investment advice, but there are ETFs, there's also a lot of thematic investing, Cathie Wood's ARK capital management or is it ARK investments? So, synthetic biology is a big piece and they have an ETF. Franklin Templeton launched an ETF. So, there are funds that exist and they're performing pretty well, but there's also individual companies that either IPOed or SPACed. So, Ginkgo Bioworks is an example of the latter but they're performing pretty well. They make custom microbes. Twist Bioscience is a really interesting company. It's an infrastructure company and those are always good to look at when a new ecosystem is forming.

Bobbi Rebell:
Very, very interesting. And by the way, if anyone wants a little more incentive to buy Amy's book, there is more information on page 96. So, you got to go to the book to get more info. Amy, this has been amazing. Tell us more about where people can find out more about you. I know your book is available everywhere.

Amy Webb:
Thank you. The book's available everywhere. Independent local bookstore is terrific but it's also available on Amazon and Walmart and everywhere books are sold online. And if you're interested in trends and what's on the horizon, all of our work is open source and freely available to download at the futuretodayinstitute.com. We've got our 15th annual Tech Trends Report launching in about two weeks at South By South West. And there are, I guess you're the first to know this, we have 574 trends this year spread across 13 individual volumes and like 20 different industries. So, it's pretty enormous.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Well, thank you so much for being here on Financial Grownup and good luck with everything. Thank you.

Amy Webb:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, friends, I'll admit it, I am a little obsessed with this Hermès bag is going to be and whether it will be like synthetic diamonds where it is still not considered real or whether because it's so cool and new it's going to be considered something better than I guess what we would say the real thing was. This stuff is so cool. I also really found it interesting that we can all invest in synthetic biology. Let me know if you're going to do that. This episode was pretty intense, but I hope you enjoyed it. I usually cut interviews down but I did not want to have you guys miss anything I had to say. So, it is really all there and there is so much more in her book. So definitely, pick up Amy's book, The Genesis Machine. Check out the Future Today Institute for more incredibly cool info.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's so generous that they make everything open source, so cool. If you enjoyed this episode, please share on social. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 if you do so. And big social media news, I started a TikTok channel. I have no idea what I'm doing so please follow me for all the cringiest videos ever. Super easy to find, just Bobbi Rebell, that is my TikTok handle. Thank you to everyone buying my book, Launching Financial Grownups, and for leaving reviews on Amazon. Algorithms pick up on that stuff so I really need your support. Please leave an Amazon review. Loved having Amy Webb of the Future Today Institute on talking about her latest bestseller, The Genesis Machine, and thanks Amy for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what, it really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart it out! Bobbi shares some background and reveals the key takeaways from the book. 

Tips to Launch financial Grownups

1. Make it about them- not you

2. Listen to them if you want them to listen to you

3. Don’t be the solution- help them find solutions

4. Be clear with your expectations and also the support to get there

5. When it comes to investing- focus on risk tolerance 
   

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Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Grownups! If you are listening to this on Tuesday March 22, 2022 this is a day I have been working towards literally for years. My new book: Launching Financial Grownups: Live your richest life by helping your (almost) adult kids become everyday Money Smart is officially out!

In this episode I am going to be sharing my top tips to launch financial grownups but first: 

I know we have been getting some new listeners so I want to bring you up to speed with a little background on me and what we talk about here on the podcast. 

I was for many years a business journalist- I covered mainly stock market news and economics - I interviewed CEO’s and talked a lot about what the fed was doing. I started at CNBC out of college, went on to CNN, PBS and finally Reuters were I spent more than a decade as a global business news tv reporter and anchor. I also was able to write a column on personal finance that was syndicated which was so much fun. But a few years ago I decided to switch gears- and become an author. My first book was How to Be a Financial Grownup. I interviewed what I would call the celebrities of the business world- people like Kevin O’Leary from Shark Tank, Tony Robbins, Designer Cynthia Rowley and I even got some money tips from Drew Barrymore who is actually quite the business woman.

After the book I decided that even though I knew a lot about money I wanted to really be confident when people asked me stuff so I went and became a Certified Financial Planner, also known as a CFP®. Let me tell you, it’s a lot of studying and work, and then at the end of it all you take this super hard test that almost half the people taking it fail. To this day, I consider passing the CFP exam to be my biggest academic and career accomplishment- even more than the books or my college degree from the University of Pennsylvania (Go Quakers) 

So fast forward: Books take time and Launching Financial Grownups was no exception. It was inspired by my own experiences- and challenges.  And full disclosure- stuff still comes up today that it not easy - not at all- with launching my own (almost) adults. 

Like they say on the bachelor- it’s a journey. Oh- yes- I got back into the bachelor over the pandemic. I’m team Gabby all the way. But we digress.

So it’s a whole book but here are a few highlights just to get the conversation going about what it means to launch financial grownups. 

Tip # 1. Make it about them- not you

You have your dreams for them- we all do. And you know what’s best for them. But these are not little kids- your children are adults and you need step away from the mirror and stop seeing their life as a reflection of you. Stand beside them and look through the window and see the possibilities that they are seeing from the their perspective. 

Tip #2: Listen to them if you want them to listen to you. So someone recently asked me about a script to get their kids to listen. Ok. Consider a script with lots of white space and room for improv. This is something Tori Dunlap of Her First 100k talks bout in my book- we as parents need to make sure we are actively listening and hearing and processing what our almost adults are sharing with us. If we tune them out- how are we surprised that they tune US out. Right?

Tip #3: Don’t be the solution - instead help them find solutions. Let’s say your almost adult comes to you and needs money for a project that is super important to them. You could write them a check- and some of us might even dig into our savings because we really want to be there for our kids. Instead- maybe brain storm with them to help them find other ways to fund the project- maybe a go fund me type page, maybe a side hustle, maybe look for grants from non profits or the government. 

Tip #4 Keep your expectations high but also realistic- and make sure they know you have the confidence to believe in them that they can do it. Don’t offer help your (almost) adults without them asking though. Wait for it. The ask may not come and that is good for them. It may be hard if you feel you aren’t needed. But that’s on us as parents. We want to feel needed- and we are- but how we are needed changes. 

Tip #5: When it comes to investing- don’t judge specific investments. Focus on broader skills and strategies. For example, teach them about diversification. If they want to invest in NFT’s who are we to say that’s not going to pay off- we may even have some ourselves. But make sure it is the right percentage of their assets. Same goes for making sure they are tuned in to their personal risk tolerance. And because time is on their side, they can afford to take more risk than us. Let them know that- oh- and no “I told you so’s” if their investments don’t pan out. 

For more I hope all of you pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups- it is on sale now. And then tell me your tips on Launching Financial Grownups- on instagram I am at bobbirebell1 on twitter at bobbirebell. 

I also would love to share more about the book with you, your company, or your school or non profit so be in touch- go to my website and click on the work with bobbi tab at the top right to be in touch. 

And as always show notes and full transcripts are available on my website bobbirebell.com where you can sign up for the newsletter where I curate media that can help us all live our best grownup lives. 

Thanks to all of you for your kind notes and all the likes- and for being financial grownups. 

Let’s take the stress out of grownup life. Instead of lifestyle creep, embrace a lifestyle upgrade. Intimidated by the idea of building a full emergency fund? Just start with a short term crisis fund. Ashley Feinstein Gerstley walks us through how to be intentional with our money, and avoid information overload. 

Money Tips

• What you can do to prevent lifestyle creep.

• What is the difference between a crisis fund vs rainy day fund.

• Learn what a walkaway fund is.

• Learning the things you should and shouldn’t know in order to make things more manageable.

• Who couldn’t use some negotiation strategies?!

• Sinking funds - what are they and why should you know about them?

• It doesn’t have to be all or nothing

• Retirement does not have to be associated with age

• Riskiest part of investing is that we are human

---

Follow Ashley!

• Instagram - @thefiscalfemme

• Facebook - @TheFiscalFemme

• Twitter - @TheFiscalFemme

• LinkedIn - @knowing-your-worth

• Website - https://thefiscalfemme.com

• Tanja Hester’s episodes HERE and HERE

• Ashley’s book - Financial Adulting

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm thinking a lot these days about financial anxiety and how much we all just want to feel secure about the future for us and, of course, for the people that we love. There's a saying, "You are never happier than your most unhappy child." And I would expand that to your most unhappy person you care about. I want everyone who hears this to be able to give the next generation the gift of financial security and the freedom that comes with it. That's why I wrote Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Money Smart. I'm excited to share with all of you and I hope it can help put all generations of your family on the path to reaching all of your financial goals and dreams. Order your copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. And thank you for your support.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
It was this moment where as a financial adult in a different stage, I was very frugal. I wanted to reach these money goals. There's this point where it's like, "When do I want to invest in something that will really benefit my happiness?" And it's not a cheap thing to get a babysitter every single week. But it's something that we did, an investment we made, and it has been so incredible. So that was a conscious lifestyle upgrade I made versus allowing like expenses to creep in.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Grownups, as I say, in the intro, being a grownup is hard. But you know what? There's so much great stuff that comes with being a grownup as well. And with, for example, we're going to talk about this, having a little more spending power as we grow into our adulthood and feel the confidence of being on track to our goals. And by the way, little tangent quickly. Speaking of goals, one of my goals is to start getting out and seeing more of you this spring and summer. My new book, Launching Financial Grownups, is coming out in just a couple of weeks. And if you, your company, an organization that you're part of, or just people in your life are looking for speakers or program ideas for this spring or summer, let's chat. Go to my website for more information, bobbirebell.com/speaking, to get in touch and for more information.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Let's talk about this week's guest because she is one of my favorites and someone who shares my passion for helping us all be financial grownups. Ashley Feinstein Gerstley is the author of the new book, Financial Adulting. It's a guide that breaks down everything that we need to know to be financially confident and conscious as adults. Ashley is also a money coach, author of The 30-Day Money Cleanse, and the founder of The Fiscal Femme, a money platform on a mission to end inequality through financial wellbeing. And as you will hear, I got so engrossed in our conversation that I actually lost track of the money tips that Ashley was sharing. Turned out there were nine and each one was really cool. Here is Ashley Feinstein Gerstley.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley, welcome back to the podcast. You are a financial grownup and you're also a financial adult.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So guys, I'm joking about that, because Ashley has a new book out called Financial Adulting. Nothing, by the way, like my previous book, How to Be a Financial Grownup. It's a very different take that I absolutely love. And so tell us about it. Welcome back.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Thank you. Financial Adulting. I'm so excited about it. It basically covers all of the money topics. And I interviewed 35 experts for the book. A wide range of diverse experts. I'd say part how to. Or mostly a how to, with some expose in there. So it's fun. I think I let some more of my humor through than I did in my last book. And I'm just excited for it to be out in the world.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know. And it has a lot of personality to it. And so I feel like we can kind of be with you on this journey. And also, there's a lot of data that is sort of jaw-dropping. I'm going to leave that to people to read in the actual book. What I did is when I went through, I kind of took some notes. And so I'm going to ask you to expand on some of the big themes that jumped out at me. Starting with, okay, this is one... And this is where you show your personality. You also show sort of the maturity of coming at money as a financial adult. You talk about the difference between lifestyle creep, which is something people warn against, and lifestyle upgrade. Ashley, so what's the difference?

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Lifestyle creep, I feel like it's more happening behind the scenes. Whereas an upgrade is very intentional. We're consciously choosing to add something or pay for something or do something in our life. I had an example recently. I was with my parents on a vacation in North Carolina and we had the two kids and it was kind of wild. We didn't get to do a lot of things because we were busy with the kids. And my mom challenged me actually. She's like, "I challenge you to get a babysitter every single Saturday." She said it would be life...

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
And it was this moment where as a financial adult in a different stage, I was very frugal. I wanted to reach these money goals. There's this point where it's like, "When do I want to invest in something that will really benefit my happiness?" And it's not a cheap thing to get a babysitter every single week. But it's something that we did, an investment we made, and it has been so incredible. So that was a conscious lifestyle upgrade I made versus allowing like expenses to creep in.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. All right. You also talk about the difference between a crisis fund, a rainy day fund, and a walk away fund. Talk about that.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes. So I would define crisis fund as like the minimum amount of rainy day fund we need in case of a crisis, something happening. Losing our job, a large health-related expense coming up, we want some cash set aside for that. Rainy day, I would say is a bigger fund than that. It's kind of like our ideal, what we'd want to have set aside. And I walk through in the book how to price it out, how much you want to have in there. But there's like the crisis minimum cash you want to have then the ideal. And then the walk away is actually to protect us in our relationships.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
And this was something that Dasha Kennedy, in my interview with her, talked about. That, especially women, having money set aside in case we need to walk away because in a time where 99% of cases of abuse include financial abuse. And so to have these funds available, without having to wait or put things on credit cards, if you need to get out of a situation is a very powerful thing. And so the walk away fund, she recommended six months of expenses to have, that you just have that cash available in the case you need to walk away.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's really important. Something I experienced when my marriage early in life broke up. I was really happy to have that financial stability. It was really, really important. Okay. The third financial adulting tip is knowing what you need to know, but also what you don't need to know to make things more manageable. This is about living in reality, not aspiration, right?

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes. And there's just so much financial information, right? There's channels. So many books, articles. I think we can get very overwhelmed in that information overload. And there's always more to learn and new things happening, and it can have us never take action. So knowing what we need to know and kind of filtering out the rest is really key to financial adulting, because then we can take action and take steps to move forward in our financial lives.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, you definitely can get that like analysis paralysis, I think they call it.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you just can't get anything done. It's almost like when you go to the supermarket and there's just too many choices. And sometimes it's better to go to a smaller store where there aren't as many options.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. The fourth tip is negotiating. Okay. When you're negotiating, one thing you tell people to do is to document your work along the way. And this goes to preparation, which can kind of be applied to so many different things and organization.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes. So I recommend keeping a success log. And this is actually something that happened to me. You have a big success at work or something goes well with the project and you assume you'll always remember that. How could I forget? That went so well. And then you go into your negotiation conversation or your year-end review with your boss or manager and you draw a blank. Like what did I even do over the last six months? What were the results?

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
So as you have successes, big and small, I highly recommend documenting them. What went well with a certain team? What was the result for the company? And then when it's time to go into that meeting, you have this laundry list of things that you accomplished. It's also really good for those down days where you're not feeling really great. You can read that list and give yourself a little pep talk.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also sometimes assume that our bosses know all the stuff that we did. But the truth is we often barely remember. The bosses forget it. They don't know. They're doing their best, but they're worried about their career. They are not taking notes to make sure that they do the absolute best review of you possible. I mean, some might. But generally it's better to have that covered yourself. Okay. I think we're up to five. The fifth financial adulting tip is let's talk about the concept of sinking funds.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
It's called a sinking fund probably because it's a fund that we build up to sink. So the point of it is to spend it. You can use them for all kinds of things. I recommend if there's ever an expense that tends to make your budget feel really tight or out of whack, and it messes up cashflow, and that could be... Travel is a very common sinking fund. A travel or vacation fund or a holiday fund. Or I have one for my dogs, medical bills, in case something big happens that I don't have to stress about money in case she needs something. So sinking funds are... I recommend putting them in an online savings account. Having each one have its own bucket. And transferring money every paycheck, every week, every month. Whatever cadence works for you towards that fund.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Financial adulting tip... I think we're up to seven. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes. This can apply to so many things. One reason we often don't plan for different goals or for different expenses is because we don't have all the information and we're not sure what it's going to be. Or when we're thinking about goals, especially really long term ones like retirement or paying for our children's education, there's so many variables and we don't know when we're going to die or what our investments will earn or what taxes will be. And so moving towards the goal, generally checking in is so much better than not doing anything because we can't know everything. So I think... And reaching a goal part way versus all the way is so much better than not reaching it at all. So moving towards goals and giving ourselves from grace for this like perfect number we have to reach.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, it's like when you're losing weight. If you try to lose weight and you want to lose 10 pounds and you lose seven, well, you lost seven. So it's okay. I mean, you can still work on the extra three. But you did lose seven, so you probably feel a lot better. All right. I've lost count. So we're on the second to the last one. Okay. Retirement does not have to be associated with age. And you do a nod to the FIRE movement, but it's not just about the FIRE movement, which is the financial independence, retire early. It's about really thinking about what the word retirement means.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
I think the word retirement comes with a lot of different connotations. And that's kind of what I wanted to have people reframe because we often don't feel connected to that goal, especially if you're earlier in your career because you think it is an age. So that's why in the chapter on retirement, I called it work optional, because that's really what it is. We're saving to have enough money to not have to work, to be able to choose to do a different kind of work, to have more flexibility. And that can happen whenever you reach that goal. And I think that makes it a little more exciting and a little more tangible when we're saving up for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it can also be a season of our life that we do that. And then we go back to doing maybe the same thing or maybe something different. And by the way, I do want to acknowledge that in the book, you do this too. That that is a nod to our mutual friend, Tanja Hester. She was on this podcast talking about her book, Work Optional. We can leave a link for that in the show notes, as we like to say.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, last one. I love this one the best, because it's about investing, the riskiest part. And this is epic that you say this because it's obvious and yet I don't think I've heard anyone say this. The riskiest part of investing is that we are human. I love that, Ashley.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Thank you. It's great to be called epic, you know?

Bobbi Rebell:
It is, but it's everything, because that's what it is. We are human. I mean, I remember the first time I was able to buy into... Not that it's happened so often. But I was able to buy into an IPO. And I thought I really had it emotionally managed because I'd been a journalist for years covering IPOs. And I knew intellectually how it works and how people react and the kind of mistakes people made. And I still was a wreck. I was an emotional wreck when that happened. And I didn't know what to do and it [inaudible 00:13:41]. And so I sold half to take it off the table and then it cratered. So I lost the other half, so I came out even. But let me tell you, I was so human in that moment. Even though I knew intellectually exactly what to do, I was just a wreck.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Yes. And you hear it over and over. Buy low, sell high. Invest for the long term. Don't look at your investments. But it truly is so different when it's happening, when you're in the moment, when you're seeing things on the news and people are saying, "The market will never be the same," or whatever it is. So some of the things to combat that, that we talk about in the book, is like investing for the long term. Not needing the money in the short term. Not looking. Understanding that we don't actually lose or make money until we sell the investment. So that's also helpful to remember, because I think there's always like, "Oh, I made $500 today," or "I lost $5,000 today." And that's not really the case. It's [inaudible 00:14:39] all the case until you actually sell is when it's a realized investment.

Bobbi Rebell:
And don't forget, you will pay taxes, which you also do cover very well in the book. All right, let's wrap this up, my friend. Tell us where we can find out more about you and Financial Adulting, the book?

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
You can find more about the book at financialadultingbook.com. And follow along me and the rest of the things going on at The Fiscal Femme.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Ashley Feinstein Gerstley:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know they say save the best for last. But my favorite tip was actually the first one about lifestyle upgrade as opposed to lifestyle creep. As we can see from all that is going on in the world, from COVID to war, it is important to remember that while we want to be thoughtful about planning for the future, we must live our lives in the present as well. And be so appreciative of all that we have and we should never take for granted, including our health and being able to live in a peaceful country. Nothing is guaranteed.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please be in touch with me. I would love to hear from all of you, what resonated with you about my interview with Ashley? You can DM me on Instagram, @bobbirebell1. And also, be in touch by being part of my newsletter. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, to sign up for that. Make sure to check out Ashley's book as I mentioned, Financial Adulting. And thank you so much to Ashley Feinstein Gerstley for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free. But I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on Twitter, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Cameron Huddleston is back on the podcast to share how we can help our older loved ones with daily money matters and other financial support- even if we are not prepared. 

Tips on how to protect your parents and grandparents money

• Learn what you can be doing to prepare right now.

• What you should be trying to get our older relatives to do.

• If you find yourself having to help, but you haven’t done any prep work, what can you do to from there.

• How can you be there for those you love, but also maintain your own life?

• Learn about some financial resources that are out there that you can utilize

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Follow Cameron!

• Instagram - @cameronkhuddleston

• Facebook - @CameronHuddlestonMoneyExpert

• Twitter - @CHLebedinsky

• LinkedIn - @cameron-huddleston

• Website - https://cameronhuddleston.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm thinking a lot these days about financial anxiety and how much we all just want to feel secure about the future for us, and of course, for the people that we love. There's a saying, you are never happier than your most unhappy child. And I would expand that to your most unhappy person you care about. I want everyone who hears this to be able to give the next generation the gift of financial security and the freedom that comes with it. That's why I wrote Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your Almost Adult Kids Become Money Smart. I'm excited to share with all of you and I hope it can help put all generations of your family on the path to reaching all of your financial goals and dreams. Order your copy of Launching Financial Grownups today, and thank you for your support.

Cameron Huddleston:
I spoke with a woman whose father had early onset Alzheimer's disease. This guy was super financially savvy, but because he was starting to experience cognitive decline, he wasn't making the mortgage payment. The mom had no idea. And someone shows up at the door of their house one day saying the house is going to be auctioned the next day for failure to pay the mortgage. And they were shocked. No had any idea.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what, when it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this

Bobbi Rebell:
Brace yourself, my grownup friends. Most of us are so used to thinking of our parents as our safety net and our support system. There are going to be seasons of our life, maybe for you it has already happened, when we may need to step up, take care of our older loved ones, not just managing their healthcare, but also their money related life stuff. Bills don't just get paid. Someone needs to make sure their lives, their financial lives specifically, are kept running and in order. And I'm going to make sure all of you are prepared if you invest the time to listen to this week's episode, because nothing says grown up like having to take care of your older loved ones, whether it be parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, or just special people in your life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Cameron Huddleston is the author of Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk. She is now the director of education and content for Carefull, that is with two Ls, and she has a lot of great advice and wisdom on this topic to share with us. Here is Cameron Huddleston. Cameron Huddleston. Welcome back to the podcast. You are still very much such a financial grownup. Nice to see you, my friend.

Cameron Huddleston:
Thank you so much for having me back on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
I asked you to come back on because I want you to talk about something that is really top of mind for so many people. With COVID 19, we've all been more in touch than ever with different special members of our family, often older members of our family, and much more aware of what's going on with them, checking in with them about their health. But also this has opened up an opportunity for new awareness and new discussions and new planning when it comes to money matters for our older loved ones. You, by the way, since we last talked now work with a company that really helped people with that. Tell us what you've been up to give us a little update and a little context on why you're so interested in this topic.

Cameron Huddleston:
Certainly. Well, of course it's personal for me because my mom had Alzheimer's disease and I was her caregiver for 12 years. Even though I was providing hands on care for about four years, for eight years, I was managing her finances while she was in a memory care facility. In addition to that, I am working for a new company called Carefull with two Ls, and Carefull is the first service that's built specifically to help organize and protect aging adults' daily finances. It's desktop service and a mobile app. You can link it to your bank and your credit of card accounts. And it's going to monitor those accounts 24/7 for common money mistakes, sign of fraud. There's also credit monitoring and personal information monitoring. And so you get alerts when it spots something unusual and it's really a great way to protect your finances as you age, protect them against fraud and protect them against those late payments that you might be accidentally making or not realizing that you're making because there's a cognitive decline issue.

Bobbi Rebell:
We can see each other. We're both nodding. I mean, it happens a lot and it happens a lot in a way that we don't always discover until it's too late. My husband had a friend who found out the friend's parents had literally been scammed out of tens of thousands of dollars. And it was not that recent. And it's hard to even tell whether the parents knew it happened and were embarrassed and didn't want to tell anyone or were not even aware. So it's really important that we stay on top of the finances of those that we love and also that we use the tools that are now available, that weren't available until recently to automate that and have these digital check-ins that we can do.

Bobbi Rebell:
But let's talk more about the broad picture. I mean, we think about, for example, I pay for long term healthcare insurance. So if something happens, my husband and I will have some money that will pay for us to be in a long-term care facility. So we are used to thinking about physical care for older people, but we don't think about having this financial safety net. Tell us more about where to even begin with this if you are someone that has older people in your life that you care about, whether they be relatives or just people that you love.

Cameron Huddleston:
Really, it all begins with conversations. Oftentimes we don't want to broach conversations about money because they seem really awkward, and you might have been raised in a household where your parents told you that it was impolite to talk about money. So the idea of going to your parents and saying, "Hey, mom and dad, I want to discuss your finances with you," can sound really intimidating, but this is where it has to start. These conversations are so important and you need to be having them before there's any sort of healthcare emergency, before there's any sort of financial emergency, because if you wait to have these conversations, at that point, it can be too late. There's not going to be a plan to deal with the emergency. Emotions are going to be running high. And who wants to talk about finances when there is some sort of healthcare emergency? And the bigger issue is that there might not be the legal documents in place that give you right to step in and make financial and healthcare decisions for your parents.

Bobbi Rebell:
What specifically should people be doing in advance to be prepared, one, for the big picture things that you're talking about, and two, for just the daily money matters that they might need to step in and help with?

Cameron Huddleston:
An easy way to kind of get this conversation started and to get information that you need is to ask your parents about what if scenarios. We're still in a pandemic, right? And so what if, mom or dad, you end up getting COVID and you're in the hospital and you can't pay your bills for a week or for two weeks while you're in the hospital or longer? What do I need to know about making sure as bills get paid? Asking about these sort of what if scenarios is a very easy and natural way to start the conversation.

Bobbi Rebell:
What if we get the pushback? Because that does happen a lot. I have older relatives in my family that will not talk about their money. It is no one else's business. I don't know why, but it happens. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

Cameron Huddleston:
You are not alone. It does happen. You know, fortunately I've heard that most parents are willing, but of course not all. And when you get pushed back, a couple things that you can try. If your parents or aging loved ones don't want to tell you information, maybe they would be willing to write it down. That allows them to maintain control over the information. So say, "Look, I get it. It's awkward. And you probably don't think it's any of my business right now. And really it isn't right now, but it might be some day. And so when that time comes, it would be nice if I had a list that I could go to of your accounts and how to access those accounts and what bills you pay and how they're paid and where the estate planning documents are and where the insurance policies are. Make this list for me, please. Put it someplace safe and tell me how to access it." If they are not willing to listen to you, they might listen to a third party. Maybe you reach out to their accountant, their financial advisor, their doctor, even.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about if you're in a situation where you do need to step in and you do not have this information? Where can you get it? What resources are out there?

Cameron Huddleston:
So you're going to have to play detective, most likely. And the key thing is, first of all, to find out what sort of estate planning documents do they have? Have they named you or someone else in your family power of attorney to make financial decisions for them? You cannot talk to your parents' bank, their insurance companies, their credit card companies, unless you have been named power of attorney and you have that document. So you go to your parents' house and you check the desk drawers, you check the filing cabinet if there's a filing cabinet, you check the closets and you search for these estate planning documents. Maybe they have a home safe. Maybe you know who their attorney is. And so you call up the attorney and say, "Hey, do you know if mom has named a power of attorney? Do you know who that person is? Do you have any idea where that document might be?"

Cameron Huddleston:
Because typically attorneys are not going to hang on to these documents in their office. And so you start there and maybe you don't know this information from your mom, but maybe your mom has happened to say something to your aunt and your aunt knows, "Oh yeah, I know she did that a long time ago and it's in the home safe. And here's the combination. She happened to give it to me." So you play detective. That's where you start. And then you're going to have to go through the may to figure out what sort of bills are paid. If you have any way to access their computer, for example, and you can check emails to see what sort of statements that they're getting electronically.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some of the red flags to know that you should get proactively involved, even if they're not in the sort of distress situation that we were alluding to earlier?

Cameron Huddleston:
Well, here's something interesting Bobbi, the researchers at John's Hopkins found that those with Alzheimer's disease and related dementias show a pattern of missed and late payments up to six years before there's ever a diagnosis. So your parent, your aging loved one, could be making all sorts of money mistakes before you even start to see really obvious signs of memory loss. Obviously at that point, the damage could be severe. I spoke with a woman whose father had early onset Alzheimer's disease. This guy was super financially savvy, but because he was starting to experience cognitive decline, he wasn't making the mortgage payment. The mom had no idea, and someone shows up at the door of their house one day saying the house is going to be auctioned the next day for failure to pay the mortgage. And they were shocked. No one had any idea.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they had the money to pay it. He just wasn't paying it.

Cameron Huddleston:
Right. He had just forgotten to send in the payments.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Cameron Huddleston:
So here are some of the signs that you can look for that your parent might be experiencing cognitive decline, and if there's cognitive decline, that means their financial decision making ability is already impaired. So obvious ones like notices for late payments, collection notices that you see sitting on the dining room table, parents not paying the bills. And if you know they've got money to pay the bills, there's something going on here. If you go out to dinner with mom and dad and they're offering to pay for dinner, but then they can't figure out how to compute a tip or they can't figure out, let's say the check is $50 and they're pulling out a 20 thinking that's going to cover. So there's obviously signs with math and the inability to handle just simple mathematical tasks.

Cameron Huddleston:
Other mathematical errors that might be obvious. If they're writing a check and they can't remember how to fill out that check or how to put the date on the check, this is a sign that something's going on. But then also if you're going to your parents' house and you notice that it was once always tidy and organized, and now it seems to be disorganized, there's plates in this sink, there's just piles of clothes everywhere and you know that they're still physically capable of handling those tasks, it could be a sign that there is cognitive decline because familiar tasks become more difficult to complete. If there are sticky notes or reminder notes all over the house, and they're telling and your parents how to do things that seem really obvious, like how to turn on the cable TV, this is a sign that something's going on and you shouldn't ignore these signs.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm just sitting here absorbing all of this. Anything else I should have asked you?

Cameron Huddleston:
Here's one more thing to look out for. If your parents mail is full of charitable donation requests, or a lot of those sweepstakes entry forms, if they're getting a lot of those, that's a good sign that your parents have already been making donations. Their names are on lists and charities and other organizations are reaching out to them. And if you see a lot of those gifts that charities send, like a blanket, the little stickers that you can put on your envelopes with your address, calendars, if there are lots of those gifts that are showing up in your parents' house, that also means that they are making donations. Now, if you know your parents are givers naturally, but they seem to be giving a lot more money, that's a sign that their financial decision making ability is impaired potentially. And again, you've got to get involved.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. You have to just not always assume everything is okay just because they tell you that on your weekly phone call. You need to get involved, ask the right questions and show up in person sometimes, or make sure that if you have siblings or other relatives that can come in and do things, like physically look at the mail, because a lot of older people do still get physical bills. That's a really important thing to be able to check and make sure you guys put together a safety net as grownups to take care of the people that you love in your life. Thank you so much, Cameron.

Cameron Huddleston:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where of people learn more about what you're off to and about Carefull?

Cameron Huddleston:
Certainly. So you can find out more about me at CameronHuddleston.com and you can learn about Carefull at GetCarefull.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much, Cameron.

Cameron Huddleston:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
I really appreciate Cameron being so candid about her own life. It's tough. It's also stuff that we need to hear and we need to hear real examples of how this impacts our lives. Hopefully we've inspired some of you to take action and have those uncomfortable conversations, and maybe they won't be as cringey as we fear. And by the way, this is something that I struggle with. It's not always successful. So you may have to kind of regroup, give it a little bit of time and just try again. It's not easy. I would love to hear your tips on getting past awkward conversations when it comes to talking to parents. And then also, when it comes to talking to younger generations about money stuff. That is a lot of the focus of my new book, Launching Financial Grownups. I am both excited and really, really nervous, actually really nervous for it finally, coming out. Years in the making.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm not doing a bunch of free giveaways to get people to pre-order. I'm putting my time, and yes, money instead into this podcast and my newsletter, which remain free for all of you. And I really want to keep my focus on keeping those two things the highest quality that I possibly can and not being distracted. So that's what I'm doing. So what I ask all of you in return is that you help me get the word out by pre-ordering the book and also encouraging others that you think might like it to do so as well. You can learn more about the book on my website, BobbiRebell.com/LaunchingFinancialGrownups. And by the way, you can also sign up for my free newsletter there as well on the website. Big thanks as always to my dear friend, Cameron Huddleston, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast, is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and BobbiRebell on Twitter, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

There’s nothing grownup about having bad debt. Marcus Garrett joins us to share how he got into debt, how his parents helped him become a financial grownup,  and his 4 step strategy to become debt free. 

4 Steps to Become D.E.B.T. Free

• Define the problem

• Establish a plan

• Build a budget

• Trust the process
  
  
  

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Follow Marcus!

• Instagram - @TheMarcusGarrett

• Facebook - @TheMarcusGarrett

• Twitter - @TheMarcusGarret

• LinkedIn - @themarcusgarrett

• YouTube - @TheMarcusGarrett

• Website - www.themarcusgarrett.com

• Marcus’ book - D.E.B.T. Free or Die Trying

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm thinking a lot these days about financial anxiety and how much we all just want to feel secure about the future for us and, of course, for the people that we love. There's a saying you are never happier than your most unhappy child. And I would expand that to your most unhappy person you care about. I want everyone who hears this to be able to give the next generation the gift of financial security and the freedom that comes with it. That's why I wrote Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. I'm excited to share it with all of you, and I hope it can help put all generations of your family on the path to reaching all of your financial goals and dreams. Order your copy of Launching Financial Grownups today, and thank you for your support.

Marcus Garrett:
I had never made more than $9 an hour in my entire life. They sent me what might as well have been a blank check for $10,000. And it was like, "Hey, 22-year-old has not demonstrated any level of responsibility in your entire life up to and including the day that you got this check. Spend this responsibly."

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grown up friends. A lot of us spent, well, more money than we expected in November and December. Oh, high inflation. Yeah. Things got a lot more expensive, and they still are. And so we set resolutions in January. But here we are, it's February. And I kind of feel like this is the month of the reality check. So we were so determined in January to reach our goals. We started out so strong, but then each day and each week passes and here we are, it is February. Marcus Garrett is an award-winning freelance money writer. He is the podcast host of the Marcus Garrett Show and the author of Debt Free or Die Trying. You have seen him all over the media, including CBS News and USA Today.

Bobbi Rebell:
I asked him to swing by and kind of help us out with the debt issues that we may be experiencing. Or if not you, maybe some friends that want to help out that may be in a little bit over their head. Marcus has an incredible backstory that he shares with me that I think you guys are going to really find compelling. And then we get into some very specific tips about how to get out of debt. Here is Marcus Garrett. Hey, Marcus Garrett. You're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Marcus Garrett:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I brought you on to talk about your strategy for debt payoff. This is something near and dear to my heart because it's something that we have a lot of money shame about. I know I've had moments in my life when I have had debt and certainly not talked about it. I'm fortunate to have come out of them at this point and be in a much healthier position. But it's something that we all have, or at least a lot of us have experienced and can relate to and a lot of us don't talk about, certainly at the time. Tell us briefly about your experience, because that's a lot of what's brought you to where you are these days.

Marcus Garrett:
I got $26,000 in debt in 72 hours.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ouch.

Marcus Garrett:
It all started with a yo-yo. I was 18-years-old walking through the campus like many, millennial flashbacks. I should have hit hashtag trigger warning. And I went to the table where they had the credit cards and they had the swag to choose for. I chose a yo-yo. I signed up for $9,000 credit card at the time. I didn't know it was $9,000. It was a Discover card if I remember correctly. Then I got three more credit cards, graduated school with $9,000 in debt. And then I got a consolidation loan, which was supposed to consolidate in all one low monthly payment, as we all know. I took that consolidation loan, bought a car, bought some rims, I bought a $3,000 TV. I'm very specific about that because people can't wrap their head around the TV used to be $3,000. But that's just a reflection of how old I am.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can still get a TV for $3,000 or more, trust me.

Marcus Garrett:
But not a 42-inch TV.

Bobbi Rebell:
No, no.

Marcus Garrett:
I got a 70-inch TV this year for $300. So I ran out and buy a bunch of stuff that I don't need and didn't appreciate the value. And then I wrote a book about it, $30,000 in debt. It took me seven years to pay off that yo-yo.

Bobbi Rebell:
I just want to clarify. So you rang up $9,000 in debt, and then when you got the consolidation loan, you were supposed to use that money to pay off the debt, but you did not.

Marcus Garrett:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
You then use that too for more debt.

Marcus Garrett:
I bought more debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just so that we followed more debt correctly.

Marcus Garrett:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
You got more debt. Okay.

Marcus Garrett:
I used debt to buy more debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what was going on there? I mean, without getting too detailed, just because I have this book launching, Financial Grownups, coming out. What happened in sort of your childhood or early adulthood that you had no idea this was happening?

Marcus Garrett:
I'd say kind of reminds me of the mind of [inaudible 00:05:05] is just the mind of a 22-year-old. Now that I'm on the wrong side of 30, I can barely wrap my head around that I did that. It almost seems like a dream that I watched on Netflix or something like that. It didn't actually happen to me. But I was really just ignorant of how money worked. It was really that simple. I really thought it was free money. I got a credit card, I thought I was getting over all the banks. I'm like, "Can you believe how low this minimum payment is? These guys, they don't know what they're doing. They're just giving me money." And then when I got the consolidation loan, I truly believed that they would pay off the credit card for me and that I would just make this new monthly payment.

Marcus Garrett:
And they sent a 22-year-old, I had never made more than $9 an hour in my entire life, they sent me what might as well have been a blank check for $10,000. And it was like, "Hey, 22-year-old has not demonstrated any level of responsibility in your entire life up to and including the day that you got this check. Spend this responsibly." And I mean, I don't know how 22-year-olds are today. Now when I talk to kids, I feel they are more advanced that they have more information available to them, but they're still young-minded. I was just young-minded and I didn't have information available to me. But what I did have was a blank $10,000 check.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And were there any stakeholder, financial stakeholders, in your life that were influencing you? Who was influencing you? I mean, were you getting information from parents or other adults in your life, from the school, or were your influences just your peer group who maybe were getting the same thing?

Marcus Garrett:
I don't want to discount the role that my parents played because my parents are actually very good with money, but they've stumbled into it. They're just very cheap. And they've done really well for themselves. They're just your traditional savers, and they just save consistently. They're they're now both retired. My parents practiced FIRE and didn't even know what FIRE was. So they both retired early and they're currently retired now 20 years in. They were both retired in their fifties. But at the same time, which is weird, they were doing that as my parents, but not as my peers or my friends, which answers the other part of your question. We didn't really talk about money in the household. They helped me set up a savings account, which I'm very grateful and appreciative of. They showed me how to save and ultimately help buy my first car.

Marcus Garrett:
But we didn't really talk about the why. It wasn't as in-depth as it is today with the personal finance community and all the podcasts. So to pivot to the other side of your question, yes, it was thus other ignorant 22-year-olds just like myself. And what was fascinating is they were always buying stuff and I could never figure out how. I had three jobs and they had no jobs, yet they were always buying stuff. I learned later they were using their loans, their student loans and cash back. I didn't have any student loans. So I was like, "I have to keep up with the Jones's, or in this case, my juniors." I had to keep up with the juniors. And so I was buying it all with credit cards. And I learned too late in life that they were buying all that with debt, a different type of debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think peer pressure is a big thing when it comes to money, especially for young people. And were your parents aware that this credit card debt was building up? Were their conversations about it? Did you get any education from your school?

Marcus Garrett:
None from the school.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Marcus Garrett:
I can say that for a fact. I don't think they knew how big the scope of it was. And I remember one time, I distinctly remember this conversation. By then in Colorado, at the time I had moved to Colorado because I had so much debt, or part of the reason I moved to Colorado was because I had so much debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
Why? Why Colorado?

Marcus Garrett:
I got a job opportunity that increased my pay 40%. And so by this point in my life, I had to move for money. I had to chase money to pay off all this debt I accumulated. I was 27-years-old. So five years after that, that car and $26,000 experience. So now I'm chasing after more money, because like most people, I think trading time for money is how you solve all your money problems.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you're paying for your past.

Marcus Garrett:
Right. So I went to Colorado. And just having a good conversation, my mom's super proud of me. And it always has been super supportive. She knows how much I make. I mean, I work in the public sector, it's not hard to find. And she was like, "Oh, you must be," frankly, whatever she said, but balling out of control, which would be my terms. That's not what came out of my mom's mouth. I was like, "No, I got $18,000 in credit card debt." And I remember her eyes. My mom's probably never had a $18,000 credit card debt in her entire life. But she was in shock by that. But even that wasn't that big of a deal to me because I knew my friends had $30,000 in debt. And 20 is like, everybody's doing it. It's just I really didn't realize how big of a number it was, because I didn't see it objectively. I just said, "Well, everybody has debt. That's the American way of life."

Bobbi Rebell:
And your mother, did she offer to step in? Did she talk to you? Did she offer solutions? What was her reaction?

Marcus Garrett:
She definitely didn't offer to step in. My parents, they're they're not the salvation type. They're not the helicopter type. They're the, we've done what we can for you and good luck with that type. So she's like, "Oh you got $18,000 of debt. So what you going to do about that?" I asked my parents for money once and it's only because my roommate was late with rent. And I still look upon that day with great lament and pain.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did they give it to you?

Marcus Garrett:
Yeah, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
They did? Oh good. I could talk to you about this forever, but I want to give our listeners, you got four steps to becoming debt free. And obviously there's more information in your book. Let's go through. So debt free, and they go by D-E-B-T. So the first one is to find the problem.

Marcus Garrett:
Yes. So I tell people, and if they want this plan, they can get it at themarcusgarrett.com/salary. I now give it away for free, because I think it's that important. And the first step is, yes, to find the problem. For me, that's going to annualcreditreport.com and downloading, there you can get your credit report, not your credit score, related but different. And I remember when I had a conversation the second time to get a consolidation loan when I was finally making the proactive and responsible steps to get out of debt, they were asking me basics like what's your credit score? How much debt do you have outlaid?

Marcus Garrett:
I'd had no idea how much debt I even had available to me, assigned to me, my monthly payments. I was just, like most people, I was floating from paycheck to paycheck and making the minimum payment thinking I was doing well or getting by. And so I said I would never put myself in that position again. So step one, I tell people to find the problem. And I found out recently from a recent news interview I did, that's still true. I think it said at least one in three, but I think it was one in five people don't know their credit score or how much debt they have. You kind of just go into this wave of denial and start making the minimum payments.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, definitely. So D could also be for denial because I've had moments where I just do not want to open certain envelopes that come in the mail. And now that we do digital, it's even worse because you'd have to proactively log on and see something you may not want to see. But you know what? Guys, I have found it is usually not as bad as you think. And once you look at it, you know what it is, only then can you get a plan. And that brings us to E, which is establish a plan.

Marcus Garrett:
For me I use, it's still available, it's actually the one that I used. It was bankrate.com/calculators with a S. If they have under 70 calculators, I'd be amazed. But it's every calculator that you can think of. Mortgage loan, any way that you can get yourself from debt, I guarantee you Bankrate as it covered. And I use their debt calculator. And I remember I used this for frame of reference. Yahoo, I'm not even sure Google was around. I used yahoo.com to find bankrate.com/calculator. And I printed it out, the PDF. And that was the debt plan that I ultimately put together. And of course, things have been updated since then. There's all kinds of tools.

Marcus Garrett:
But I just tell people the tool doesn't matter. The best system is a system that works. So establish your plan. How are you going to pay down this debt? I think a lot of people are just like, "I want to be debt free." That was probably their new year's resolution. "I want to be debt free." And those goals sound good, but how much does that cost? How many months, how much do you have to pay each month to truly be debt free in that timeframe that you set for yourself? That's the hard part that you're talking about. That's where you're doing the work. So establish a plan, a true plan with a system to become debt free.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I totally agree. People will get caught up in the avalanche or the snowball or whatever, all these different things. The truth is, whatever works for you. And I am also a big fan of bankrate.com. All right, then we've got B is for build a budget. Ooh. I hate budgets, Marcus.

Marcus Garrett:
Well, that's good because I think the chapter is you actually don't need a budget.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Marcus Garrett:
What I say is you need a system. So the first budget is really to say, "Once you've got that, you know how much debt you had, you define. You've established a plan." And now really what I'm saying is build a budget around that plan, because sometimes a plan might say it's $500 a month. If you don't have an extra or cannot find $500 a month, then you've set yourself up to fail. So you've set your plan incorrectly. So it forces you to go back and revisit the plan. And that's why I say budget is actually step number three because it supports what you define and if you have an actual plan that you can follow. It's like a diet. If your diet says cut 2,000 calories, you're probably not going to do that because I think you need 2,000 a day to survive. So it forces you to, is this reasonable? Can I survive on this plan?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. Being realistic is so important. And then the last one is trust the process.

Marcus Garrett:
So that's a shout out to my millennials and zennials out there. I'm actually a geriatric millennial, I found out. Those of you 37 and up are with me. But really all that means is the system works. I know for a fact this system cannot fail. And you said the avalanche and the snowball, I've used both of those as well. And in combination I've used a number of different systems that adjusted to my lifestyle as necessary. But once you choose one and you trust the process, truly buy in. That's why the book is called Debt Free or Die Trying. Not debt free until inconvenient, not debt free until I need a new TV. It is Debt Free or Die Trying. There's very little outs other than being out of debt. So hashtag trust the process.

Bobbi Rebell:
Great tips. You have a bunch of other stuff going on this winter going into spring. Tell us what you're up to, Marcus.

Marcus Garrett:
Yeah, I've got a lot. I'm currently, and thank you to Apple Podcast, I'm featured in Apple Podcast for black history month in they're hashtag secure the bag category. For the people who are interested in this plan, they can get it downloaded for free at themarcusgarrett.com/salary. And then I have a newsletter of now about 5,000 individuals. I've scaled from 200 to 5,000 in the last 12 months. And every week I send out something informative about getting out of personal finance. And my season three episode focus is from employee to entrepreneur. I just want to see people be great and do well. And it's called The Marcus Garrett Show. But honestly, it's just opportunities for me to have cool conversations with people I would've loved to talk to anyway. And you'll be on an upcoming show actually in the spring in March promoting your book. And then in April, I always do a big push for financial literacy month.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Well thank you so much. And let's just give your socials and where else people can find out more about you.

Marcus Garrett:
I'm universally branded under The Marcus Garrett. I'm most active now at youtube.com/themarcusgarrett. And then I've always been super active on Instagram. Again, it's themarcusgarrett as well. I have about 10,000 coming close to 11,000 followers there. So I just, once again, share memes. That's the lighter side of me. So the cat makes cameo appearances. The cat gets more views than any video I ever put up. She has a video right now that's like I would describe as viral. So I do reels and memes on instagram.com/themarcusgarrett.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Marcus Garrett:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, grownups, I think the thing that I liked most about this interview with Marcus Garrett was hearing about how his parents dealt with his financial ups and downs. For example, when his mom heard that Marcus was $18,000 in debt when he was in his mid twenties. So not even that young, he should have known better by then. She put it to him to find a solution rather than giving him actual money to pay down his debt. That said, in a true clutch situation, when, and this was at a younger time when Marcus's roommate did not pay his rent, probably knowing how hard it was for Marcus to come to his parents for financial help, they were there for their son. It's a fine line. It's a lot of what I talk about in my book, Launching Financial Grownups, because yeah, it's a tricky situation and there's a lot of nuances. Being there for kids, grandkids, and just young adults that care about in your life. But not always with a check or a financial gift as a solution. Sometimes, but usually not. Sometimes just as a support and helping them work through it.

Bobbi Rebell:
There are times when, if you can financially help in a specific situation, that is okay too. It's a lot about figuring out what to do when. So this is a perfect segue to ask everyone to pre-order Launching Financial Grownups. A lot of authors do big giveaways. But as you know, I put a lot of time, energy and yes, financial resources into providing this podcast for free. Along with my newsletter that you can sign up for free on my website, bobbirebell.com. I hope you will help me out by pre-ordering Launching Financial Grownups because the early sales, especially pre-orders, really help. And of course, Marcus is terrific. So everyone, please check out The Marcus Garrett Show wherever you enjoy podcasts. And big thanks to Marcus Garrett for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money tips for financial grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 one on Instagram and bobbirebell on Twitter, where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Careers Done Write’s Debra Wheatman shares her best tips for Grownups to level up their careers in the new year. 

Career Tips for 2022

• Write down a list of these things so that you can visualize them.

• Think about what you would like to achieve in the coming year.

• Create a plan for getting there. Perhaps you’re looking to be promoted, switch industries, or change careers altogether.

• Do you feel like you’re too busy to focus on managing your career and your brand?

• Another thing that will help you in the coming year is single-tasking.

• How are you at building relationships?

• Challenge the status quo.

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Follow Debra!

• Instagram - @careersdonewrite

• Facebook - @CareersDoneWrite

• Twitter - @debrawheatman

• LinkedIn - @debrawheatman

• YouTube - @careersdonewrite

• Website - CareersDoneWrite.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownups. Before we start the podcast, I want to talk to you about keeping things in perspective and remembering sometimes we just have to laugh it off. We need that. Life is full of grownup choices and it can be a lot so it's important to keep things in perspective and have a sense of humor. That's why I created Grownup Gear. It is super fun merch to celebrate adulting; t-shirt, sweats, mugs, I even have kitchen aprons for cooking. It lets everyone know that you are a grownup, or at least a grownup in progress, or at least you know someone who's a grownup. We even have the cutest baby gear from onesies to bibs that say things like, "I can't believe you are the grownup." The best gifts for new parents, birthdays, engagements, graduation, pretty much any occasion, even a great gift for yourself. Check it all out at grownupgear.com.

Debra Wheatman:
If you don't take charge of your career now and you don't prioritize the things that are important about your career and your ability to be financially independent, then you will likely suffer some of the consequences of those decisions later on in your life.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what, when it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends, as you may have guessed from the opening sound bite, we're going to talk about careers. I have been having a bit of the career blahs lately. I sense a lot of people do as we are entering year three of the pandemic, which was supposed to be staying home 15 days to stop the spread. Yeah. Well it is what it is. So here we go.

Bobbi Rebell:
I decided we should do a little miniseries of career episodes for financial grownups starting with this week's guest, who's amazing. Her name is Debra Wheatman. She runs a company called Careers done Write, and Write is spelled W-R-I-T-E. Her genius is in the fact that Debra helps people not just figure out what they're good at and what they should be getting paid for, she also helps kind of package it all up so that your best attributes are front and center and help you land that dream job.

Bobbi Rebell:
Highlights of our interview included talking about the mistakes that we make when we're choosing a career. It was interesting because she has a very different perspective from what I think a lot of parents tell their young adult children. She also has a lot to say about the urge to multitask and some their very interesting suggestions there that you are going to want to hear. She also shares her take on the whole work from home thing, how it's evolving, what we should sort of make ourselves do in person maybe, but also some things that may be better off, I don't know, remotely. It's all okay. You'll love to hear what Debra has to say, so here is the interview with Debra Wheatman.

Bobbi Rebell:
Debra Wheatman, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Debra Wheatman:
Thank you so much for having me. It's nice to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are a human capital management strategist. Your company, by the way, is called Careers Done Write. What does that mean?

Debra Wheatman:
Well, we're a writing company and we're a branding company. We work with our clients to help them define, manage, maintain, and grow their brands so they can be successful in their careers.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is so much more relevant than ever with all the changes going on in the workplace. We don't know what is going on for 2022 in terms of how things will evolve with work from home, with working in the gig economy, how companies are evolving. So this is something that everyone needs to pay attention to, especially our grownups. Let's get into your tips for 2022.

Bobbi Rebell:
The first thing is just to write things down so you can visualize them. That's something we hear a lot, but you have a different spin on it.

Debra Wheatman:
Yeah. If you write things down, you're obviously going to be more inclined to not only remember them because there's a lot going on upstairs, we don't retain information just by saying, "Well, I'm going to do this. I mean, how many times have you said, "I'm going to do this," and then you forget about it. People do that all the time. If you write things down, you're not only more than likely to then commit to getting them done, crossing them off your list, but also that sense of accomplishment that you get when you write them down, when you complete them, and it allows you to move ahead with purpose. I like to say that because that's an important part of job search, it's an important part of your professional, your personal life, and gives you a feeling of accomplishment when you write things down and then you check them off as you go.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also say that you have to think about what you want to achieve in the coming year, but also very specifically create a plan for being there and be specific. Are you looking to be promoted? Are you looking to switch industries? Are you looking to just change careers altogether? And this is an opportune time because so many different industries are open-minded about maybe mentoring somebody and bringing someone into the fold that they might not have looked at before, but now they need people. So this is kind of a good time, right?

Debra Wheatman:
Yeah, this is definitely a job seekers market. If you are in the middle of the opportunity to do something different, something that maybe has driven you in the past or something that you want to get involved in, now might be a good time to do that because there's been a lot of upheaval. And as a result, because it is a job seekers market, you have more of an opportunity to spread your wings, explore new things and do something perhaps that maybe inspires you in a new and different way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, a lot of people listening to this might say, but, but, but, somehow I'm just so busy. When the pandemic started, we were home and we had so much time. We were baking bread. I did that. We were doing all kinds of home projects. We were having little wine, coffee hours, wine happy hours, whatever you might call it, because we suddenly felt like we had so much time, and now I don't know where the time is going. I mean, we're all so busy. So what do you say to people that just say, I feel like I'm so busy, I don't have time to manage my career or my brand?

Debra Wheatman:
I say to that, that you don't not have time to do it. That is a thing that should be a priority for you because your career, your brand, while I like to think that people are altruistic, there's no altruism when it comes to your ability and the need to make money. You have to support yourself. Maybe you have a family, you're beholden to other people. Whatever it is at the end of the day, the ability to make money and have a life that you want to lead, and take a vacation even, is predicated on your ability to make money. You also, at some point in your life, you're going to retire. You're not going to be working well into your 90s. What does that look like for you? If you don't take charge of your career now and you don't prioritize the things that are important about your career and your ability to be financially independent, then you will likely suffer some of the consequences of those decisions later on in your life.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's interesting that you say that because we also do have this movement, especially stereotyping a little bit, but maybe not too much, especially among young people that really want to follow their passions and do good, and they get told, well, sometimes that's not going to pay as much. It's a delicate balance because people feel like it's the right thing to do to take these sometimes jobs that don't pay as much in money, but pay a lot in feel good, but they're doing themselves a disservice sometimes when they don't prioritize money.

Debra Wheatman:
That is true. I would say there's more than one way to make yourself feel good and get that gratification that you're looking for. Maybe you don't necessarily do it in your "day job". Maybe you volunteer for an organization that is close to your heart, where you have a really strong connection. Instead of looking at it like I have to do work in this particular area, there are other ways that you can actually give back and get that same thing while still making money that supports you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another misconception is that people feel like if they can multitask, they'll get more done. You are against multitasking for sure.

Debra Wheatman:
Multitasking is not always a great thing. I do like to call it single-tasking instead. You should do one thing, try to complete that and do it properly. If you multitask, you're not going to do any of the things that you have on your list in a way that is either completed or satisfactory to you. If you focus on the one thing and get that thing done, it will be done properly. It will be done on time. It will be done according to the specifications that you hold yourself accountable to, and then you can move on to the next task. And that goes back to my earlier point, what you were asking me about prioritizing and making lists. This is why writing things down is important because then you could check it off, and the single task that you completed, victory is yours.

Bobbi Rebell:
The multitasking, you get sucked into it when you work from home. I mean, I definitely have gotten to the like, oh, I should be doing this, but I'm also doing the laundry and I'm also making lunch for my child, and I'm also doing all this because I have to get it all done. It's really dangerous. We really need to get that under control because we don't know if and when we're going back to the office full time, and we have to find ways to kind of settle in and create new ways to work at home, right?

Debra Wheatman:
Yes, absolutely. Of course feeding your child and doing the laundry and cooking dinner so that everybody has something to eat, all of those things are very important, but if you don't finish the one thing that you had to do that you said I'm going to finish this and then I can move on to this next task, that's an interrupt-driven work style. And I know, because I'm sometimes guilty of that. You'll never get any of them done. And you'll find that instead of getting this thing done and then being able to go and make dinner, if you will, neither of those things will be complete. And the thing that you had to get done that was sort of for traditional work, you're going to be doing that at 10 o'clock at night. How are you going to feel about that? Versus getting it done and finishing it and then saying, okay, once I'm finished with this, I'm now going to go do this other thing that I need to accomplish over here.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's really hard, but we do have to learn to set those boundaries because it felt temporary at first, but now a lot of us if we're not going to work from home all the time, it's still going to be a part of our life. One of the hard things also about working from home or even in a hybrid environment is building relationships. Can you talk a little bit about your advice for that and how it pertains to sort of up-leveling your career in 2022?

Debra Wheatman:
Sure. Building relationships is difficult in an online world because while you can see people, the connection that you get from being in person is just not the same thing. The other thing is that you're scheduling these meetings, you're scheduling a Zoom call. It seems sort of disingenuous in some way. I'm going to speak to you today. I'm going to see you on Zoom at 4:00 PM. Versus saying, you know what, meet me at the restaurant. We're going to have some coffee, some wine and some dinner and just get together in person. People like to be around other people. This situation in particular has proven challenging for a number of people because of that.

Debra Wheatman:
Now given the situation that we're in, this is a good way to still connect with people and build those bridges as long as you use the time wisely, as long as it's meaningful for you, with the understanding that when it is safe to go back and meet in person, and when it's feasible to do that, we're going to resume those activities because again, people do like to be around other people. And proximity to other people, not just through a screen, it's important. It's good for our mental wellbeing. It's good for our physical wellbeing. To be able to give someone a hug is an important thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
The last point I want to bring up, I can't believe this, we're entering year three. Debra, I remember when they said 15 days to stop the spread. Now we're entering the third year of 2022. We have a new status quo. You say challenge the status quo.

Debra Wheatman:
Yes, challenge the status quo. You don't have to continue to do the same things the way you've done them in the past. The pandemic has taught us if nothing else, that life is fleeting. It has taught us that we can work from home. We can do these things successfully. I know a number of people, a number of my clients who are far more efficient, far more effective working from home than they ever were in the office. And their bosses have said, you know what, stay at home. You're doing great. We love having you there. You're so efficient. Continue to do what you're doing. This is working out wonderfully.

Debra Wheatman:
That doesn't mean that you don't want to show up in the office because you want to show up at some point, out of sight, out of mind, and you want to have a little bit of a balance, but if you're effective working from home and that works for you, then you should pursue that path. And the state of the market the way it is today, the jobs they are showing us online, hybrid, fully remote, in-office, so we're having the opportunity to see what that looks like.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where can people learn more about you and be in touch?

Debra Wheatman:
Thank you. Yes, if people want to learn more, they can find me debra@careersdonewrite.com. That is my email. You can also go to my website, careersdonewrite. And that's like writing; W-R-I-T-E.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Debra Wheatman:
Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay friends. One of my favorite things about getting to know Debra in that interview is that while she had a definite point of view about things like not taking a low paying job to quote, follow your passion and instead, maybe taking a higher paying job and using that to support your passion or support a cause that you really care about. She's totally nonjudgmental, and it's tough to walk that line. So I think it was pretty cool the way that she approached it. By the way, she is working on a book called Help! To Hired, which will help all of us find meaningful work, but in a way that also helps get you to your financial goals. So keep an eye out for that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Speaking of books, my book, Launching Financial Grownups, is on presale. You can buy it in all the usual places. If you go to my website, which is bobbirebell.com, you can learn more about it. It is a huge help if you order it in advance because it helps with algorithms, and it lets the places that sell books know that people are interested, and then those places in turn will make the book more discoverable.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm not doing a bunch of elaborate pre-order giveaways. That would take a lot of time and money and effort and all that kind of stuff, but I'm putting my effort into things like keeping this podcast super high quality and free for all of you, but it is something that takes time and money. I also put a lot of money and time into my newsletter, also free to you. So your support with the book pre-orders is truly appreciated.

Bobbi Rebell:
The next two weeks of this career video series are going to be incredible. I have Whitney Johnson. She is huge coming up next. Her new book is called Smart Growth. We're going to be talking with her more directly about those career blogs that I mentioned at the top of this show and how to get motivated again. And then I'm going to be speaking with Jill Duffy. She wrote The Everything Guide to Remote Work. So please make sure you are a subscriber or are following the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast. And please tell your friends to do so as well. I really appreciate your support of the podcast as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
With that, big thanks to Debra Wheatman. Check out her blog at Careers Done Write. She also has a great newsletter, so I encourage you to get on her list as well. And truly grateful for her advice to help us all beat financial grownups. Thanks guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and @bobbierebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what, it really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for grown up friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Joe Saul-Sehy, along with co-author Emily Guy Birken, is out with his first book. Bobbi puts him on the spot with a fun game of financial free association. Listen to hear how Joe did- and if you would have the same answers. 

Money Tips from Joe’s book

1. Financial Fasting

2. Electricity Jumanji

3. Pretend it’s the 70’s and Do the hustle

4. Understanding the CubE

5. Emily’s love of custom stickers

6. Get Two drinks even with American Express

7. Cancel culture ( as in credit cards)

8. Einstein approved 

9. God Invest the queen

10. Analysis paralysis

11. Quick Draw
    
    

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Follow Joe!

• Instagram - @stackingbenjaminspodcast

• Facebook - @IStackBenjamins

• Twitter - @AverageJoeMoney

• LinkedIn - @joe-saul-sehy

• YouTube - @stackingbenjamins

• Website - https://joesaulsehy.com and https://www.stackingbenjamins.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never-ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love, but the truth is, it's also really hard, and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic, and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
My team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you are the grownup, either," and new colors and designs of our top-selling Generosity line.

Bobbi Rebell:
For the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity Collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code HOLIDAY, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y, and thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy Holidays, guys.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
You play the reward game once you have your act together. I had no business playing the reward game before. Now, I'm getting all that money back that I gave them by making sure that I have two drinks on them every time I fly.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips For Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownups. Do you always make sure you get your money's worth, especially when you paid for something and you feel like it's kind of your revenge reward kind of thing? So for example, and this is something we're going to talk about in the episode, in the interview, if you've earned status on a credit card, are you going to use every single perk and get every possible freebie? Even if it's not something that you necessarily would've wanted, otherwise? I mean, there's no reason not to. Money is funny that way, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Also funny is Joe Saul-Sehy. He is the co-host of the Stacking Benjamin's Podcast and the co-author of Stacked: Your Super-Serious Guide to Modern Money Management, out today, by the way, if you are listening to this episode on the day that it drops. If you've been listening, by the way, to this podcast for a while, you know that name because Joe and I used to have a little podcast together, called Money With Friends, that we put on hold because, well, we both got book deals. So, Joe stopped by to promote his book, and I, of course, took the opportunity to put him on the spot with a little game of financial free association. Joe was kind enough to play along, and you'll get a kick out of this, I promise. Here is Joe Saul-Sehy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Joe Saul-Sehy, my friend, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
It feels like old days. We're back on together, Bobbi. We got the band back together.

Bobbi Rebell:
We are back on, and typical of me, I'm literally multitasking as we start because I didn't check all your audio stuff, but you're all good. Of course, you are.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
And typical of me, I am about 20 minutes late.

Bobbi Rebell:
That is typical of you, yes. Okay. So, we know we are still ourselves, very much so. This is a big occasion. We stopped our mutual podcast because we both, which was called Money With Friends, which was an amazing podcast, and maybe one day it will be revived, but we stopped it because we each got these book deals. So of course, you had to be first. Your book is coming out in late... December 28th. So first of all, congratulations for getting it done.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one doubted it at all.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
The first time I tried it, it took 10 years. So as you know, I got a great co-author. Emily Guy Birken kind of helped me get through the process, which was fantastic.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So Joe, you beat me to the punch. Your book is coming out first. It is called Stacked: Your Super-Serious Guide to Modern Money Management. I like to keep you on your toes, so we're going to play a game, and it's called Financial Free Association. What I'm going to do is, I'm going to pull some words and catch phrases out of the book, Stacked, and you're going to tell me a money tip or a money lesson from that phrase. Just so everyone knows, this has not been rehearsed. I am throwing this at Joe, spontaneously. He's doing a little crying on the screen, which you guys can't see, but it's going to be all worth it because I know he's going to come up with some amazing advice from these little catch phrases and words from his book, Stacked, which by the way, again, co-written with Emily Guy Birken, who we have to give all the credit for the book, and Joe is wonderful as the face of the book, promoting it here today with us. All right. So, here we go. Number one, financial fasting.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Financial fasting is when you to take a break, just like when you do a regular fast. You take a break from spending to really see what comes out. What's important to spend money on, and what's not important to spend money on? So when you do a financial fast, you say, "You know what? I'm no longer going to maybe," along with eating, "I'm no longer going to eat at restaurants. I'm no longer going to buy stuff I don't need," outside of, let's say, groceries to live, right? But even before groceries to live, if you're really doing the fast, depending on how big a fast you're doing, you might not buy groceries until you clean everything out of the freezer and the refrigerator. You go through everything before you end the fast. A fast is a way to figure out what's important in your life and what's not, so when you create the real budget, you can design it around those things that are important to you and avoid all the stuff that's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number two, electricity Jumanji.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
My kids are 26 now, but this is back when they were about eight-years-old, and at that time, bills came in the mail once a month for the utility bill for electricity. So what we did was, we just took out some graph paper, and you could still do this, right, with your monthly... if you get the electronic notice of what your bill is going to be each month. We took out some graph paper, and we played a limbo game. We played Jumanji. It's, how low can you go with this electric bill? And it was awesome because I went from me being the only one who cared.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Guess what the prize was? There was no prize. There was no prize. It was just, let's see if we can do this together and make it a game. How low can we go? Can we beat last month? And just that little bit of motivation, I would be watching a television, and I'd leave the room to go get a snack, and I come back, and my daughter's got the TV off. She's like, "Dad, you left the room. You got to turn the TV off. You're wasting electricity." So, my kids went from not caring at all to caring a lot, and it wasn't through yelling. It was through involving my kids in what the real goal was for the family.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm processing that. I'm seeing how I can apply that to my family. It's hard.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
It is hard.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're going to work at it. All right, for number three, we're going to pretend it's the 1970s. Okay. Do the hustle.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
I had a great interview with a guy that, Bobbi, you know I've had a crush on for a long time, Austin Kleon, who wrote Steal like an Artist, and he's this business person meets artist, and I asked him about side hustles and he said, "You know what? Time away from your job actually informs your job." And he said, "It's when I play guitar that I get great ideas for my business. It's not when I'm in the trenches doing the business. It's when I'm away." He said, "So, I really like side hustles because they kind of inform each other. It keeps you fresh. And, if it's for something small, like I want to pay off this credit card that I screwed up with, or I want to pay for this trip without having it come out of the budget. I want it to be extra, the side hustle can do all of that."

Bobbi Rebell:
Number four, understanding the cube, understanding the cube.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Oh, this is fantastic. I had a mentor tell me this, that whenever you're in a discussion, we all are trying so hard to get whoever we're in this discussion with to understand our point of view, and yet every discussion that we have is a cube. You're sitting, Bobbi, on one side of the cube, and I'm sitting on the other side of the cube, and it's imaginary. My mentor told me, he said, "Whoever sees the other person's side of the cube and looks at it from their point of view, from the other person's point of view, that person will be the first person to really be able to bridge that gap between the two of us." So when you're in any negotiation, and in the book, we talk about it in terms of a salary negotiation, right?

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Understand what your boss wants. Your side of the cube is I got a lot of bills. I want more money. Daddy needs new shoes, whatever the thing is, that's what we want, but your boss wants more productivity, wants to understand how they tell their boss to give you a raise. What are you going to do for the department then that you're not doing for them now? Understand the other side. There's a truism that mom has said for a long time, that this goes back to, which is seek first to understand, and then to be understood, and that really is what the cube is all about.

Bobbi Rebell:
This one's a bit of a twist. Custom stickers, as in something Emily wanted. Custom stickers.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
You pulled for these, man. We get tripped up by credit card debt, and Emily, as a young college student, was like, "You know what? I'm not going for the Frisbee, or the pizza, or the stadium blanket," that they would used to have on campus. As you know, Bobbi, they can't do that anymore. But back in the day, man, a lot of us got in trouble for a free, quote, free Frisbee or a free stadium blanket, and they still offer these things even through the mail now. So, Emily was very proud of herself that she did not get caught up in credit card debt by the usual means.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
And then, she got this letter in the mail from a credit card company, and it said that she could get stickers, that she would be able to choose what her credit card looked like on the front, and if you want to get Emily, you just got to offer her stickers, and she's yours. So, Emily ended up in credit card debt, like the rest of us, over custom stickers, which was really to make the bigger point that credit card companies have done so much research on you, and they know what your hot button is, and if they don't, they're going to find it and realize that there's a serious game being played against you when it comes to credit cards. So, you need to play a serious game on your end, as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Next, we've got tipsy flying as in two drinks at the airport lounge, two drinks at the airport lounge, Joe, courtesy of American Express?

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Two drinks at the... Is this talking about getting the reward cards?

Bobbi Rebell:
You talk about the fact that you always get at least two drinks...

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
... when you go to the Amex lounge.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
This is...

Bobbi Rebell:
So, you're always a little tipsy on the airplane, Joe, but you got your money's worth. That's the important thing.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's okay to be a little bit tipsy, as long as you get your money's worth.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Well, no. Actually, the bigger point there was actually that maybe I wrote that wrong, because I didn't want that to be the point. The point, though, was I was a mess with credit cards when I was, like we just talked about with Emily, I was a disaster with credit cards. I had a bunch of credit card debt. I also went for the reward point program when I had no business doing that. I'm paying 25% interest, and I'm thinking, "Yeah, I'm getting these rewards." Well, I'm paying way, way over the amount that I was paying then in interest for the rewards I was getting. I was funding my own quote rewards. Well, now, I'm the opposite.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Now, I have this badass credit card that gets me into the lounges, and I love... It's funny. My son just went to one of the lounges with us. He went as my guest on a flight that we just took, and he's like, "Oh, I've heard about these. I don't really care," and then we went up into the lounge, and 10 minutes in, Bobbi, he's like, "How much did this cost? What is this? Really? I can eat whatever I want over here and..." Yes. You can do all that. You have your own little private area. It's very nice. They take care of you. You're in this calm environment. I now go to the airport, sometimes, 45 minutes early, just so I can have a good meal before my flight, relax a little bit, and to your point, have a couple drinks. But my point is, you play the reward game once you have your act together. I had no business playing the reward game before. Now, I'm getting all that money back that I gave them by making sure that I have two drinks on them every time I fly.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, let's stick with the credit card theme here. Beware cancel culture. Beware of cancel culture.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yeah. If you cancel a credit card that's your oldest credit card, that may lower the amount of time that they think that you've had credit. I actually had this horrible credit card from the mid '90s, Bobbi, that I only last year finally canceled. I finally canceled it last year, and it's because I've got plenty other credit. My length of credit's fine without it, so I went ahead and got rid of that. What is interesting, though, because like everybody or like a lot of people, my credit cards also show me my credit score all the time now, which is a cool perk of a lot of cards. When I canceled that card, still went down a couple points. It went from like 820 to 815, and nothing happened, besides the fact that I canceled a credit card.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so wrong.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
It's stupid.

Bobbi Rebell:
But it is what it is. Like a lot of these things, it's wrong. It shouldn't be, but we got to work with what...

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
... we got to work with.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Know how the game's played.

Bobbi Rebell:
Next up, Einstein-approved.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
There's this phrase that's been attributed to Einstein, which is about compounding interest is the eighth wonder of the world. A lot of people say, Einstein said that. Well, Einstein didn't really say that. However, it still made our book because it's so often attributed to him, and we talked about here's this guy who's splitting atoms for fun, doing these crazy things with tweezers and atoms that nobody else can do, and he's bragging, supposedly, about compounding interest, and what is compounding interest? People talk about it different ways.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Here's the way Emily and I talk about it. Your money, when you get interest, it's like your money, Bobbi had a baby, right? And that's interest, but compounding interest is when your money baby has a baby, and then your money grandkid has a baby, and you're in with this $1. You're creating this lineage of compounding interest, so that... I'm as lazy as the next guy, so that I can sit on my butt at home, and I've got my money out there. All my money babies are out there working for me. How great is that? And so, that strategy of building money on your money, that's Einstein-approved.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Last one for the win, analysis paralysis.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Yes. Oh, I play board games as you know, Bobbi, and we've got this friend who takes all day to do anything, and it kills the game. That's fine. Killing game nights, okay, but taking so long to make a decision that you miss the opportunity is absolutely horrible, and I have a coach who taught me recently that you should work by the 80% rule, which is if it's 80%, right and the way that you should go, then you got to get moving that way, and I like that because movement, even the wrong movement, teaches you something. If you learn that this was the wrong way to move, it's easy, then, to tweak, right? We'll tweak. We'll either not make the same mistake, or we'll tweak it to be better next time, or we can tweak it this time. Most of the time, movement is not going to hurt you, unless it's second-guessing your strategy. That's the one place where sitting in one place is good, but too many people suffer from... I need more information. I need more information. It's just, I don't want to make a decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true, and so many things just don't happen in life because we just don't act, and I think one thing that I like about Sacked is that it will hopefully inspire lots of people to act. Tell us more about... Wait, I have to say the whole title properly now. We practiced this. Stacked: Your Super Serious Guide to Modern Money Management. Did I say it right, Joe?

Joe Saul-Sehy:
You did. So when you're pitching the book, I was telling these editors from these different publishing houses. So here's the idea. I'd like to take the Cub Scout Wolf Guide, combined with the Hardy Boys Detective Manual, but make it serious and about money for adults. What do you think? And I thought, they're going to think I'm crazy, and the world's biggest publishing house said, "We're in. That sounds awesome." The book is meant to be very easy at the beginning, because I don't know where you're starting from, but at the end, it goes over some very seriously complex things. We start off with stacking your first Benjamin, and then stacking Benjamins, and then protecting your Benjamins, and then stacking stacks on your stacks of Benjamins. It isn't meant to be read from beginning to end. It's meant to be this guidebook, like I had when I had the Hardy Boys Detective Manual. I'd pick it up and learn how to...

Joe Saul-Sehy:
When my mom touched a doorknob, my brother and I would go over with the tape. Right? We'd make that we got that fingerprint, because you never knew what mom was doing. I wanted people to carry the book around that way. So, it's Stacked. It's out today, which is awesome. We're so excited, and it's available everywhere. Please, if you're going to buy it, buy it from your local bookshop, if at all possible, and we've got lots of links on our site, stackingbenjamins.com/stacked. I'm also going to be going on the road, 42 cities. I'm going to come see Bobbi, and we're going to see different cities. So if you want to follow us and come hang out and nerd out with other like-minded people, see what city is close to you, and come hang out with us in the next three months.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thanks, Joe.

Joe Saul-Sehy:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
So much great stuff there to get us set up for the new year. I love the part about Joe making sure to get the most out of those reward cards, because like I talked about in the open, we totally do things that we can get for free, even if we don't actually want them as is often the case with things like free food, or in Joe's case, free alcohol. We just like the idea that it's free, and we don't want to miss that opportunity, even if we don't actually want the thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I'm curious, what freebies do you guys take, just because they're free and maybe you wouldn't, if you actually were paying for them? Probably a lot, but you kind of feel like you earned it, right? So those kind of things, DM me on Instagram at @BobbiRebell1 or on Twitter @BobbiRebell, and I'm going to have some freebies for all of you in the new year, as I get ready to release my book, called Launching Financial Grownups. Get on my newsletter to be the first ones to hear about them. You can sign up by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
In the meantime, Stacked is now out, so get your copy, and get yourself set up for the new year in a really good way. Big thanks to my friend, Joe Saul-Sehy, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media. @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and @BobbiRebell on, both, Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media, and tag me, so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself, as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Treat yourself to the best grownup advice from podcast favorite Farnoosh Torabi. The So Money host and CNET Editor-at-Large joins Bobbi with a preview of her Page a Day Calendar for the new year- including some surprising advice from GirlBoss Sophia Amoruso.

Money Tips

• Learn from your mistakes so you don’t repeat them

• Rethink retirement

• Envision your goals and be specific
  
  
  

---

Follow Farnoosh!

• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/farnooshtorabi/

• Facebook -https://www.facebook.com/FarnooshTorabi

• Twitter - https://twitter.com/FARNOOSH

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/farnooshtorabi/

• YouTube -https://www.youtube.com/c/FarnooshTorabiTV

• Website -https://farnoosh.tv/

• Farnoosh’s Page A Day Calendar - So Money Page-A-Day Calendar 2022

  • Receive 20% off when you use the code “SOMONEY” at checkout to

  • If you would like to order in bulk, reach out to Farnoosh directly at Farnoosh@somoney.com for a deeper discount and to have her appear virtually for your event.

Follow Bobbi!

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• Twitter- @bobbirebell

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• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love, but the truth is it's also really hard. I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you're the grownup, either." And, new colors and designs of our top selling Generosity line. And for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code Holiday, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. And, thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays, guys.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Money advice is not just money advice. It's live advice and I think we need it now more than ever, to help us make big changing decisions around all the things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And, you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. Hard to believe we are in countdown mode to the year 2022. I hope everyone had a good year this part year. Probably better than 2020, right? Anyway, I want everyone to be set up for success and just a really good year. And, what better way than getting advice for each and every day?

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that I've been struggling with this past year has been all the damn screen time. I find myself just wanting to be away from all the glowing screens in my life. So, one thing I got recently was my friend Farnoosh Torabi's new page-a-day calendar. I have it right on my nightstand. It is paper, my friends. It is awesome. I do not have to charge it and it doesn't glow at night, it's just there. The added bonus for all of us is that I was able to get Farnoosh on the podcast, to give us all a proper sneak preview.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for the few of you who do not know who Farnoosh Torabi is, in addition to putting together this lovely little calendar that I'm looking at as I record this, Farnoosh is a longtime financial journalist, content creator, bestselling author. She is also the host of the So Money Podcast, which is literally one of the most successful money podcasts ever, with more than 18 million downloads. She recently licensed the podcast to CNET, where she is now the editor at large. With that, let's get to this interview. Here is Farnoosh Torabi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Farnoosh Torabi, welcome back to the podcast. You're a financial grownup.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Am I, Bobbi? Thank you. That means a lot, coming from you. That's official, I'm a grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is official, in this year, two years I guess, we're losing count, where we're looking at screens so much. It can be so overwhelming. You are saving us all for the new year, because you have the ultimate product that we all need and that is a literal old school page-a-day calendar. It's called So Money: A year of managing your money, your life and your dreams. And, what I love most about this is that it is a physical product, which is something you haven't done before.

Farnoosh Torabi:
No. I've done books. I haven't done a book in forever. I have another one coming out in 2023. Yikes.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But in the meantime, I've got a couple calendars that you can play with. I have this one for 2022, and then I have one for 2023. This is an opportunity to bring what has been a very virtual experience for people, the podcast and then following me on social, in the form of something really tangible. And, that they can gift.

Farnoosh Torabi:
For fans of the show, occasionally they'll write to me and they'll say, "Are you selling a t-shirt or a mug, or something with the words So Money on it? We want to show and express our fandom." I don't have anything in that world. So then, this is it. This calendar is special and it's one of those things where I find that we often need all the inspiration and reinforcement, and this is something that can sit on your desktop, wherever you work, which is probably home now. Or, you can take it with you, gift it. It's handy. And every day, a new piece of wisdom, often derived from the show and the wonderful guests that we've had, or a lot of them are just my own life philosophies.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, so we can't go through all 365 days, but I wanted to give some people the highlights of the highlights. So we're going to play, I don't know, we could call it Calendar Roulette, but it's not really that. We're just going to flip through and we're going to have Farnoosh randomly pick a page.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, stop.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So, I just stopped, this is not going to be in order, obviously. June 29th, it's a Wednesday. By the way, this calendar will also let you know what day of the week it is, which I don't know, it's been pretty hard to-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it blends. It definitely blends sometimes, in this work-from-home life that we have.

Farnoosh Torabi:
A short while ago, I had on the founder of Girlboss, Sophia Amoruso, who has become a friend. It's just funny how the podcast ... Do you ever become friends with your guests?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Farnoosh Torabi:
After they come on the show?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Farnoosh Torabi:
It's not a friend that I ever thought I would have, but when she first came out with the book, which became a New York Times bestseller, I was in awe of her and I tried to get her on the show. She was way too busy for me. And then, I don't know, I just caught her at a good time, she came on the show.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But at this point, she had experienced a lot of public failure, where-

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait. Isn't there a Netflix show? There was definitely some series about her life, which was awesome.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Yeah. It was Charlise Theron produced. Her story is phenomenal. I think she was a college dropout, she was dumpster diving for vintage clothing and all that. And, turned it into an eBay store and earned millions of dollars. And then, turned that into a clothing store called Nasty Gal, and then came up with this Girlboss movement.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Anyhow, Nasty Gal went bankrupt. This was after she was on the cover of Forbes, touted as one of the youngest potential multi-millionaires of our time, self made women. So we talked on the show a lot about that, the ups and the downs, and she was very candid.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So this date, Wednesday the 29th, the title of the wisdom is "Learn From Your Mistakes so That You Don't Repeat Them." It goes on to say that, "Sophia Amoruso is the poster child for a certain type of media backlash. When she started her first business, Nasty Gal, she was a darling of the financial press. Before long, she was routinely being called out for creating less-than-inclusive work environments."

Farnoosh Torabi:
This is true. She got a lot of heat, she almost got canceled.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which, a lot of female founders do get.

Farnoosh Torabi:
They get a disproportionate amount of that, for sure.

Farnoosh Torabi:
"The criticism hurt," she told me on my show. "But it was fair," and she took a lot away from it. "It's an important opportunity for everyone to learn," she said, "when they get negative feedback. It doesn't always feel constructive, but there are ways to make it constructive for yourself."

Farnoosh Torabi:
And, there's a lot to say to that. I think for me, what she's really saying there, at least how it's hitting for me, is that in life, there are going to be challenges and you shouldn't be afraid of the feedback. Look, if we were afraid of feedback, would we be doing what we're doing?

Farnoosh Torabi:
It was hard at first, when I was first starting out working in financial news and giving opinions. And of course, with the internet, it's very easy to give feedback. I was getting a lot of nasty feedback, for things that were not even in my control. People didn't like the way I looked, or the way that I sounded, or the fact that they thought I was not qualified. And my boss told me, he said, "Listen, for every negative comment about you that you receive, there's 100 positive comments that weren't created, that weren't reported because people tend to be more negative than positive."

Farnoosh Torabi:
If you have a bad experience at a restaurant, you're going to write that review on Yelp. Versus a great experience, you might not. You might tell a friend, but you're not going to publicly put it on Yelp.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. Okay, let's do another one.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Okay. Wednesday, September 28th.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Farnoosh Torabi:
"Rethink Retirement. The words we use matter."

Farnoosh Torabi:
In this tip I say, "Rather than saving for 'retirement,' which carries potentially negative connotations ... " And also, whose really retiring? Ron Lieber just wrote in the New York Times about the fact that we're all going to have to work longer, let's just face it. Face the music. Now's a good time to rethink your career, if you aren't happy.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So it says, "Rather than saving for retirement, which carries potentially negative connotations, consider saving for your freedom."

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't know, that's a little scary, too. But okay, go on.

Farnoosh Torabi:
The day in the future when I'll be able to actually call my own shots. This actually, I took this out of the page of NerdWallet's website. But this way, you're not putting away money for a hypothetical life stage you're not sure you'll ever reach. You're saving so that you have flexibility and security when you need it, and that's more enticing.

Farnoosh Torabi:
And if I hard more room, I would probably write that, as you're saving for retirement or whatever you want to call it, to really imagine yourself in that stage of your life. And, actually visualize yourself, what are you doing, what are you wearing, who are you with, where are you hanging out, what does your face look like. They have these studies now, Bobbi-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh yeah, that app.

Farnoosh Torabi:
These simulations where they age you and then they did a test. People who saw their age progressed selves were more likely to save for retirement.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, let's do one more.

Farnoosh Torabi:
All right, one more. Why don't we do ... What's your birthday?

Bobbi Rebell:
January 3rd.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Oh my gosh!

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming up.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Well, that takes us right to almost the beginning. Oh, this is good.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Farnoosh Torabi:
"Envision your goals and be specific. The more details an idea you have of what you want to accomplish this year, the better your chances of actually accomplishing it. Rather than aiming to save more, aim to save $5000 in a high yield savings account by year's end. This gives you a target that you can measure your progress against. And as I always say, goals carry price tags."

Farnoosh Torabi:
If you want to make that sentence even longer and say, "I'm going to save $5000 in a high yield savings account for my daughter's whatever, college," or even something closer, like her tennis camp. Gosh, I'm not there yet. I don't know what tennis camp costs. But, her braces, let's be more practical.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Just the point is, back to that visualization tip, the more you can make real what it is that you're after, one, the more excited you can get. And, the more motivated and consistently you'll save because it's actually this thing, this tangible thing in front of you, as opposed to this abstract, saving just for saving. Decide your why, and then go and try to achieve the goal.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, it has to be something that you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am excited for the next year, with having this physical calendar on my desk. Because like I said, I'm so excited to have something that's not on a screen, and it can inspire me and give me different things to think about. Even if they're just reminders of things I know I should already be thinking about, reminders are really good and they push you to think about what's important to you. So thank you for this calendar. And by the way, it's super affordable, if you are looking for last minute gifts for the holidays.

Farnoosh Torabi:
We have a discount right now, going on. If you go to workman.com and you use the code So Money, you can get 20% off. And, I have a very special offer for anyone who wants to buy multiple copies. Let's say you want to buy 25 or more for your office friends, for your clients, for your extended family. If you want to do that, get in touch with me, I'll get you even a bigger discount. And, I'll show up virtually, for 15, 20 minutes and chat with your book club, your office mates. I've been doing this, so far. It's been fun to make face time with people. But, I'm offering this only until the end of the year, so you've got to get those purchases in and then we can schedule something in the new year.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But, if you're interested in that bulk purchase and having me show up, and talk my mouth off in front of your group, it's farnoosh@somoneypodcast.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You made some very big changes in your professional direction in the year 2021. Tell us your latest news and what you're up to for 2022. Oh my gosh, 2022.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. So much has changed, I'm very excited. I've gone back to my roots of journalism and working in the media biz. And I've joined CNET as editor at large, and will be helping them launch and grow their money vertical. That means writing for them, doing a lot of media for them. We started a YouTube channel, so you go check out YouTube.com/CNETMoney. A newsletter, and the podcast, they're licensing the podcast which means they're helping me grow that, and we'll be integrating some more CNET content into the show.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But, it's an opportunity for me to grow. I don't know about you, but the last 20 months, career wise, was a tremendous inflection point, for I think me and millions of Americans. I personally wanted to work with a team again and feel like I could make more of an impact. And of course, the show, as I mentioned at the top, I'm so blessed. The people just keep coming, it's millions of downloads. But, it's been a weird time and I feel like money advice is not just money advice. It's live advice and I think we need it now, more than ever, to help us make big changing decisions around all the things.

Farnoosh Torabi:
CNET's got an incredibly big, engaged audience so it was just a great partnership. And, they're giving me a lot of freedom to grow and try things, things that I would really do on my own. I tried to start a YouTube channel on my own in the pandemic, didn't work. Who knew you couldn't start a YouTube channel, on top of everything else? Raising your kids, teaching them school, going to work, in the same place, 24 hours a day.

Farnoosh Torabi:
I'm also writing a book, that has nothing and everything to do with money. But, it's really a memoir, big idea, memoir-ish kind of book. Which is a little different for me, because I'm very used to technical writing but it's really making me think and write creatively, about the fears that I grew up with. And, why I don't think that was always such a bad thing. I'm still a very frightened woman, who's very skeptical of a lot of things, but I get stuff done. And, I have to think that there's a connection there, that my fears have actually come out to work in my favor. But at the same time, I think there's also just panic and that's not what we want to have.

Farnoosh Torabi:
So the book is really about how to be smart and emotionally intelligent about the fears that you experience, and recognizing what ones are worth paying attention to and what ones we need to kick to the curb. But, this idea that we need to ignore our fears or run away from our fears, I have a different philosophy. I feel like we should really embrace them in some ways, because I think it can help us to get closer to what we define as success and that's different for everybody.

Farnoosh Torabi:
But, looking forward to finishing that. As you know, it's hellish when you're in the midst of ... I always like having written and I like going to book parties, but this process is like pulling teeth a little bit. But, it's good for me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I can't wait to read it. You're such an inspiration. Thank you so much.

Farnoosh Torabi:
Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, friends, I hope you guys enjoyed that interview as much as I did. Farnoosh really is the best. Such a generous, lovely person, I love having her on. We barely got into all of the incredible nuggets of wisdom in her calendar, but I am really into it.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, she is doing another one for 2023, so it's going to keep going on. The great thing is, like I said, paper, no screen. By the way, it's recycled paper so it is eco-friendly, all the good stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do not forget to get that discount code that Farnoosh so generously gave us. It's So Money, when you order it on the Workman Publishing Page. You can also, by the way, get that info on my website, in the show notes. It's just my name, bobbirebell.com. Where like I said, you've got show notes, summarizing every episode. Also, full transcripts all there, just for you.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, big almost end of year thank you to Ashley Wall, our producer who puts that together, all of the show notes, so well. She also puts the quote boards that we use on social media into the show notes, so you can see highlights of the interviews from all of our guests.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, if you're wondering what I'm talking about, I post them also, sometimes on Instagram, but pretty much always on Twitter. I'm going to do more Instagram in the new year, so follow me on Instagram. That is Bobbi Rebell and the number one. And also, on Twitter, that's just my name. It's easier, just Bobbi Rebell. B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L. Even though I definitely get tired of the screen time, I am going to be on social media much more in the new year, with a lot of great stuff. DM me if you follow me on either platform, so that I know to follow you back and I know your part of our Grownup community.

Bobbi Rebell:
In the meantime, get yourself set up for the new year with the So Money page-a-day calendar. You're going to be really happy you did. It's just really calming and I feel like it's a nice thing to wake up to something inspirational in the morning. So big thanks to my friend, Farnoosh Torabi, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Steward. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes, to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what, it really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Feeling unmotivated, indifferent and blah about your career (AKA how you make money)? With the great resignation we’re experiencing you are not alone. Unfollow Your Passion Author Terri Trespicio shares her tips on creating a life that matters to you AND  that can also pay your bills.

Money Tips

• Get a job, any job, that pays money.

• Commitments- this is where a lot of people get the wrong idea. 

• Avoid doing something just because other people say you should.

• Think about the effect of being paid when you do something for pay.

• Jobs are not all of nothing.

• Don’t be judgy- especially for yourself.

• Explore your off label use.
  

---

Follow Terri!

• Instagram - @ttrespicio

• Facebook - @TerriTrespicio

• Twitter - @territ

• LinkedIn - @territrespicio

• Website - https://territrespicio.com

• Terri’s New Book - Unfollow Your Passion

• Terri’s Ted Talk - Stop Searching For Your Passion

• Terri’s Other Ted Talk - It’s About Time We Rethink Happily Ever After

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love. But, the truth is it's also really hard, and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic, and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
So my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you are the grownup either," and new colors and designs of our top selling Generosity line. And for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity Collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code holiday, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. And thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Rather than think about the ideal job. I say, think about the life that you want, because if you're getting paid at such a high rate, that it makes your life, the kind of life you want, then you can do other things, you didn't sell out.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what, when it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grown up friends. Did you always know what you wanted to do for a living? I kind of did. I wanted to be a journalist pretty early on. And while I have been able to do that, and you'll see why this is important, I have been able to get paid pretty well for it. This week's guest has me thinking, "It might have been okay or even pretty good to have tried out some other stuff first. But in my early twenties, I was in such a rush to follow my passion and turn it into a paying job. I mean, look, there was pressure from parents, from teachers, from friends that were doing this to just get started, to be the grownup right away, lock it in, define who you are. Now, again, to be clear, it's worked out pretty well. But looking back, I kind of wish I had known this week's guest back then and with the wisdom that she has now, since we are peers, but she wasn't so sure about what her passion was and that also worked out pretty well for her.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's going to be interesting for you to hear what she has to say. It's pretty epic stuff. Terri Trespicio gave a TED Talk a few years ago. It has racked up close to 8 million views. And by the time this goes out, it could be even more. It is amazing. It is about unfollowing your passion. And now she has a book by that same name, which follows up on that really landmark talk. I mean this talk, I can't even begin to tell you how much it mattered to so many people. So in my interview with Terri, we get into how her winding path to finding her passion actually led to this aha moment. That that is not what it's all about and most important, how we can all use Terri's experiences to take the pressure off, and find out what we actually want to do or confirm, it's okay. Confirm that we're doing what we want to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's good too. But to be clear, sometimes it's okay to have a job that's for money to follow your passion. And so it's okay to just kind of work for the money. I mean, not to be so miserable, but you guys get the idea. Anyway, this interview is going to have you taking action and getting excited about your future. I promise you that. You got to hear it from Terri herself. I'm not as good at explaining this as Terri. So let's get to it. Here is Terri Trespicio.

Bobbi Rebell:
Terri Trespicio, you are a financial grown up. Welcome to the podcast.

Terri Trespicio:
Thank you. Happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so glad that you are here. You are well known for your TED talk. Tell us a little bit about that, and then tell us about the book now following the TED Talk called Unfollow Your Passion.

Terri Trespicio:
The TED Talk I gave in 2015, it's called Stop Searching For Your Passion. I gave it and I thought, great. Whoever was there in the audience saw it. And that's probably the last time anyone will. And I was wrong about that. It took off. The thesis is that the question we ask each other and ourselves, whether we should or have found the one thing we should be doing, is not a helpful question. It is incredibly limiting, and it presumes that we're supposed to know what we're doing, and I'm not convinced that any of us does. And so [crosstalk 00:05:05]-

Bobbi Rebell:
I took issue with it-

Terri Trespicio:
... the world changes.

Bobbi Rebell:
... and that's an important point that you bring up in this book that I'm so happy we finally finally have. Okay. So taking that, the book really expands on the idea of the TED Talk about how we balance this whole notion of passion with look, we do need the practical reality that we have to earn money. And we also want to be happy because we spend a lot of time doing the things that earn us money very often. Not always, some of us are fortunate. We don't have to spend a lot of time, but most of us spend a good deal of time at what we like to refer to as work, or things that bring in money.

Terri Trespicio:
Yes, both those things. And the book picks up where the TED Talk leaves off and goes deeper to question all of the ways in which we have assessed career and meaning, and value, and time, especially now, and people are going, "What am I spending my time on? And is it worth it?"

Bobbi Rebell:
I loved the book, and I pulled some of my favorite grownup tips from it to share. So the first one, which goes to what you were just saying, and you were sort of... It's well, the tip is that you should get a job, any job that pays money when you're sort of lost. And this relates back to you soon after you graduated college, going back to what you just said about all this pressure on finding the one thing. You were sort of stuck because you were doing nothing because it wasn't the one thing.

Terri Trespicio:
I would get offers for jobs, and I would turn them down. Low-paying entry-level jobs. And I said, "I can't do that one. I can't do that one." My mom said, "Why, why?" I said, "Because I don't want to do that for my life." And she said, "But you," I said, "But I'll be trapped. If I take it, I'll be stuck there for life." And I don't know, I don't know. I was really in a bad place. She was like, "Listen to me, you have to take a job, any job, and you will figure it out, but you've got to start." And so finally, when I finally said, "Okay, fine." It wasn't a dream job.

Terri Trespicio:
It wasn't meant to be a dream job. It was an executive assistant job at a management consulting company in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I knew nothing of what they talked about. I didn't understand it. They were super brilliant people, went to MIT, I was charged with, "Sit there and answer the phone, and make travel arrangements," and do things I didn't know how to do. You'd say, "Well, why would that be some kind of breakthrough job?" Because I had a place to go, and I had a job, salary, benefits, people who waited for me in the morning and called me by name during the day. And I felt like I had a purpose there, which I did until I left. But If you don't let yourself do it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Well, and it was a grown up job. And that's actually the second point, the second tip that I wanted to talk to you about was just that, commitments. People overthink this idea of commitments that they have to commit to that job forever when that's far from the truth. And by the way, the job is not committing to you, you point out too.

Terri Trespicio:
Oh, definitely not. Commitment does not have to be lifelong. Commitment means you're in it right at that moment.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you're very candid in the book. For example, you talk about being laid off, and how it just sort of at the moment was so devastating because you felt committed, and it was apparently a one-sided commitment at that moment.

Terri Trespicio:
Well, let's be real. By the time I got laid off from Martha Stewart, in my mind the writing was on a wall a little bit, because my boss had left. And they brought in a new editor-in-chief of that magazine. And that editor-in-chief didn't know me at all. And I thought, "There goes my connection." It just, I had a feeling, but I was also afraid to leave the full-time job. Well, you can't leave a full-time job when you don't have any something else. But by the time it happened, I remember the day before I got laid off, I said, " You know what's funny. I would imagine there might be a chance I could get laid off."

Terri Trespicio:
And it happened the next day, because they were cutting, cutting, cutting. It just, magazines weren't making Martha all the money. And ultimately the magazine work foreclosed a few months later, so that's it. But I didn't feel betrayed, actually. I said, "I need to leave," but it was almost like, "You're going to have to break up with me because I don't know if I'm going to leave." And then they did. And when I knew that commitment ended, I was a little bit fearful, but I knew then that I had to do something. Again, that prompted me to dig in.

Bobbi Rebell:
The third tip that I want to discuss is that you talk about avoiding doing something just because other people say you should. And you give the example of Michelangelo, which I thought was so genius.

Terri Trespicio:
It came out of the work of fiction about his life by Irving Stone, The Agony and the Ecstasy. And there's a moment when Michelangelo just wants to sculpt. He endures drawing or painting. He doesn't love it. He wants to be a sculptor. And he gets an opportunity [crosstalk 00:09:14] in Lorenzo's sculpture-

Bobbi Rebell:
A paid opportunity.

Terri Trespicio:
... Got paid. [crosstalk 00:09:17] paid for being in the sculpture garden. He was very excited about it. And he's like, "This is so great." It was like the equivalent of being a writer at SNL, except you're doing sculpture from marble. And one of his friends says, "Let's get out of here. What if this garden goes down? What if we don't... No one cares about this. Why are we doing this? It's not at the top of my list." And Michelangelo said, "There is no list. This is all I want to do."

Terri Trespicio:
Now that doesn't mean Michelangelo is right, and his friend would've been the next genius sculptor. It wasn't right for that kid. And I believe they were kids at the time. That kid wanted something steady. He said, "Let's get into something that makes some money, like pork. Maybe he went on to be a pork salesman who knows? But Michelangelo said, "No, this is what I'm doing right now." And he didn't say someday, I'm going to be to... Yeah, he was just like, this is all it. This is it. Now he knew, but there's a proof of my point though, Bobbi, because we don't all grow up craving marble. I didn't, I wasn't like I'm going to do this. That's the rare. Most of us are afraid and wanting to do something that makes money. But the idea that you have to make both the answer, that you have to do what you love and make a fortune doing it, is a lot of pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
There's a lot of things that focus on being in the right mindset, in your book. So the fourth grownup tip is, think about the effect of being paid when you do something for pay, how does being paid make you feel? And I mean, for me, I had a tangent conversation with a friend of mine who had a very high paying job that she didn't love, but she loved the money and she didn't hate the job, but she really liked being paid so much money because it opened up opportunities and she's like, "Yeah, I took the job for the money. And somehow people have trouble with that. But I really liked being paid a high salary."

Terri Trespicio:
But that's the life. Rather than think about the ideal job, I say think about the life that you want. Because if you're getting paid at such a high rate, that it makes your life the kind of life you want, then you can do other things. You didn't sell out. I really hate this idea that you don't have to turn everything you love into a business. First of all, not everyone has to be an entrepreneur, and there's nothing wrong with taking something. You don't win points for being a starving artist. I'm sorry. You just don't. Unless you don't mind someone finding yourself 20 years from now and maybe caring about it, I'd rather enjoy the stuff I'm doing now.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said, all right, number five. Jobs are not all or nothing. There's a lot of nuance. We tend to be very literal with jobs.

Terri Trespicio:
This is my problem with the linear thinking around jobs. That were only this job or we're defined by this job. Anyone you can think of who has a job, that that's what they do. I guarantee you, they have lots of other things they love to do too. On one hand, we want the work to inspire us, and we want to be known for doing something wonderful. But who said that the thing you create that's amazing has to be the thing you're getting paid for. I think we don't open up the bandwidth enough to see all of the potential from all the things we can do. This is what I usually say. Bobbi is like, "The world does not owe you a job that suits your dreams and passion." The world does not owe you that it's on you to figure out a way to do something you love that matters to someone else. No one just pays you more because you like it. That is not how it works. It's not how the economy works.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the stories you share in the book that I love is about your sister, who is a very talented singer, but that is not the job for pay that she wanted.

Terri Trespicio:
Right. My sister is an amazing singer. She could have had a chance of making a living as a singer. I don't know that she would've been like Jlo, I just know that she could have made a living singing, and she knew that from an earlier age. And she fought it and said, "No way, no way, no how." And no one understood it. And they still don't. If they hear her sing when she does do for fun. "You're so good. You could have been famous. Why don't you that?"

Terri Trespicio:
And she's like, "Do you understand that if I could have been the most successful you could be as a singer, my life would be singing every day or traveling all the time." She said, "My big goal is to have my own house, to have a couch, to sit on it every night, to watch TV, and have kids and a dog. That is the life I want. You don't get to make a living as a huge recording artist and then never go out and tour or perform." She said, I want to do it when I do it. And if I made singing my life, I would've come to resent it."

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the other themes that you talk about that I really picked up on is don't be judgey, especially of yourself. And I'm referring to, for example, the idea that you were selling jewelry in the suburbs on this MLM, you embraced it, you were good at it. You learned a lot from it. You formed relationships from it. It worked for you at that time.

Terri Trespicio:
I was bad at it at first. And I was like, "Really? I feel weird selling." I was a copywriter. This was not my jam, but I quite frankly needed to earn the money. And I really liked the jewelry. And so I realized liking jewelry, and having a passion for accessorizing does not directly link to a skill in sales. That I had to learn. It was tough, but I was incentivized to learn it. And when I figured out how to make it work for me, it was something I did well at. I didn't do it very long. I think I did this organization for maybe two years, if that, and then I kept those skills in my back pocket. And then when I got laid off and had to work for myself, guess what I pulled out? My skills that I had learned on how to sell. And now I had to sell myself. So nothing is wasted, no job, no opportunity is wasted if you know to take those skills and use them somewhere else to benefit you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right? Because what we're hearing is whether it's the executive assistant job or the job selling jewelry at these parties, these were all things that built up who you are and the skillset that you had. And had you been judgey about them and looked down on them, and not realize the opportunity in them, you would not be where you are today.

Terri Trespicio:
Oh I used to make a joke about earning an MFA in poetry. First of all, it was not a joke. It was a very expensive investment that my family was able to and willing to make for me. So there is a level of privilege right there. You don't need to go get an MFA.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you make an argument there of how it would lead to income someday when you were asking them to pay for it?

Terri Trespicio:
I said, "This is what I want to do. I want to be in this program and learn it, and to become better at it. I don't know how it'll directly relate, but it is a Master's degree, and it could really be helpful, and I don't know how. My family is willing to back me on that. Plenty of people wouldn't. And you don't need an MFA to be a writer. However, I used to joke about it later. "Oh, I had an MFA poetry." I was real practical. Well, in fact, today I make my living, a lot of it from writing.

Terri Trespicio:
And what did I do? I apprenticed to study the words, the beats, the lines. I basically consider myself today a corporate poet. I use the skills I studied to create poetry for companies, to make it sing on the page. And that comes from years of study of line beats and forms, and all of that stuff. So I had the weird life that just is uniquely mine, but so did everyone else's. But I hear people dismissing, "Oh, I did that for a while. That was stupid. Oh, I did that. That was dumb." What did you... You learned something. Why would you let it go to waste? There isn't a thing I did that I don't use.

Bobbi Rebell:
We have to look and see if the URL, the corporate poet, is available for you. I feel like that's a good brand for you.

Terri Trespicio:
I don't know if a company wants to invest in a bard.

Bobbi Rebell:
But no, but you call it the corporate poet, which is really what it is. I think that's a very catchy brand-

Terri Trespicio:
You Think?

Bobbi Rebell:
... for someone that does something less. Yes-

Terri Trespicio:
Maybe I'll do it.

Bobbi Rebell:
... I do. The corporate poet. Do it before this airs. All right, the last one. This is my favorite one, because it's just so you. Explore your off label use.

Terri Trespicio:
Yes. This is again taking stock. And I walk people through that in the book. Of all the skills you've learned, no matter if it was paid or unpaid, whether it was what you learned from babysitting or raising your own kids, or running this nonprofit, you don't look at it just by, well, how much did I get paid there? What are the skills that you know? And how can you use them. Off label meaning, yeah, I trained as a poet. So now I know language really well. I also work as a brand advisor, so I know that, but the brand advising work, I can do that for anyone and anything.

Terri Trespicio:
Stop looking at our skills, stop looking at your own skills as tunnel vision, like they only work here. Your whole batch of skills is like a bag of tricks, and you can take it from landscape to landscape. From one group to another. The creativity, everyone's always saying they want to have a creative career, the creativity in a career does not come, whether it's labeled creative. It's how are you using all these different skills to light up different areas of your work and different people? How do you all your different skills help people in ways you might not have thought about? That's the magic. That really, really is.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said, and so much great stuff in your book, Unfollow Your Passion, How to Create a Life that Matters to you. And I love on the cover that "to you" is in script and underlined, because that's really the big thing I think that stands out. That it's unique to you and everyone needs to take what matters to them from this book. And there's a lot to take there. Tell us more about the book, what you have planned. I know you're doing a lot of promotion for it. And then how people can get in touch with you and follow you and all the good things.

Terri Trespicio:
Well, the to you, by the way, imagine if it didn't have to you at the bottom, it would just say how to create a life that matters. Who says what matters? That's the key. It doesn't have to matter to anyone else, but you. But people I'll say, more women than men, are concerned that their life isn't serving enough people in enough ways. And as they say, "If you live out what everyone else wants, what are you left with? So my hope for the book is yeah, of course. Yeah. I hope people read it and use it. The thing that I most hope that it will do for people.

Terri Trespicio:
It's not going to tell you what you should pursue in your career. That it's too linear. That's not my job. I would be very arrogant to think I could tell you that, but I would hope that it will open up your thinking and unlock something so that you don't feel chained to one way, one role, one path for being in the world. That is a kind of self-imposed prison. And the sooner we can free ourselves of that and see that we really do get to make things up as we go and our lives can be what we want. The sooner we do that, the freer and the more self-possessed we will be. And isn't that the goal, the goal isn't just happy. The goal is free.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said, where could people be in touch with you?

Terri Trespicio:
Well, they can find me, I'm on all the things. And I'm the only one with my name. So if you look up me up, you will find me, but if you want to learn more about the book it's at unfollowyourpassion.com, because that's easier to remember than my name, but of course you can find me @territrespicio on Instagram, Terri Trespicio, if you Google it, the Google knows how to correct the spelling, no matter how you do it. And I would love to hear from people.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Terri Trespicio:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love that part about being a corporate poet. She really is. And that story about her sister's incredible singing talent really hits home. It makes so much sense just because you have a talent that others will pay you for. Doesn't mean you have to go sell that talent for a living, If it's not going to give you the life you want. You want to do something that will give you the life that you want. It's also okay to take a job that you don't love. But of course, obviously you don't want to take a job that you hate, but you love the fact that it pays super well and gives you something that you're really into. It gives you the ability to do things that you can afford to do. Jobs don't have to be for fun. They really can be for the money, after all, companies are paying you to do what they need to get done.

Bobbi Rebell:
They are not paying you to fulfill your dreams. If they work together. Great. But if not, well, seriously you are in the majority. Don't sweat it. Enjoy the regular paycheck and health insurance, and so on. I highly encourage everyone to not just check out Terri's book, Unfollow Your Passion, but also to check out some of her other content, she creates so much great stuff and has all of these workshops and other resources, including, but not limited to by the way, her TED Talk. Invest your time in her teachings. All to be found at unfollowyourpassion.com. And big thanks to the wonderful Terri Trespicio for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grown up. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how can do that first connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our Merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

This holiday season shopping is back- but with rising prices, shipping delays and the urge to make up for lost time, grownups need strategies. Here’s how to get the gifts that that won’t be out of stock, and to make sure YOU are in control of what you pay. 

5 Holiday Shopping Tips

1. Get your priorities in order

2. Flip the list

3. Gift things with flexible prices

4. Gift certificates to local restaurants or meal services

5. Family gifts

---

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Learn from Mindstorms author Kathleen Celmins how to know which ideas are worth monetizing vs. keeping as a hobby, why and how you should record and watch yourself speaking on video, and specific to come up with a business idea that you can monetize.

11 Money Tips to making more money

• Drill down to find your expertise- do this while sleepy- you should be able to smile at every topic when you are done with the list

• It’s the small ideas that make a lot of money

• Not all hobbies and interests are meant to be monetized

• Find your over arching topic, idea and word

• Record yourself on video talking about your ideas- then watch it

• People are willing to pay to solve problems- come up with a list of problems you can solve

• Write a book and step on a stage

• Create digital products

• Every 90 days find a new income stream to build

• How to battle resistance

• Build content on what you own not rent because the rules can change

---

Follow Kathleen!

• Instagram - @kathleencelmins

• Facebook - @kathleencelminsdotcom

• Twitter - @kathleencelmins

• LinkedIn - @kathleencelmins

• Website - https://amplifiednow.com and https://mindstormsbook.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list, that includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love. But the truth is it's also really hard and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you're the grownup either." And new colors and designs of our top selling Generosity line. And, for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity collection, then we'll gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code HOLIDAY, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. And thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays, guys.

Kathleen Celmins:
So, what are the problems that you can solve? Not what are the problems you can solve better than anyone else in the world, but what are some of the problems that people come to you with and leave with a resolution?

Bobbi Rebell:
You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebel author of how to be a financial grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome everyone to a episode of the money tips for financial grown ups podcast. I'm your host, Bobbi Rebell. Let's start today with a question, do you ever stop and think what if I could make money not doing my job, but doing something I love? Really, stop running around and focus. Are you thinking that now? I'm not going to tell you to just go for it. In fact, in many cases, you should not go do what you love for money. That is the advice from this week's grownup guest, Amplify Now's Kathleen Celmins.

Bobbi Rebell:
Her new book, MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur has a lot of what to do, but just as importantly has some very big don'ts. And, trust me, I've done the don'ts, it's not good. You got to listen to Kathleen. There were so many incredible nuggets of wisdom in her book we raced through about 11, but we just barely touched the surface. So, don't worry about taking notes. As a reminder, everything is on my website, bobbirebell.com just go to the Podcast tab, show notes, you'll get the full transcript. But meanwhile, listen up. She's really good. Here is Kathleen Celmins.

Bobbi Rebell:
Kathleen Celmins, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm happy to have you. You've given me so much informal advice over the years about how I can monetize various business ventures of mine. I've taken some of your advice, I probably should take all of your advice because I'd be a lot wealthier by now, but I'm excited that you're going to your wisdom with all of our listeners.

Kathleen Celmins:
Well, thank you so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
And to that point, you wrote a book that is going to be very helpful to our listeners called MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur. This book sort of echoes the kinds of things that you do with your in-person clients. So everyone can it at their own pace at home. I have 11 tips that I took away from this book. We're going to try to plow through them as quickly as possible to get them all into the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
The first one... And, by the way, you say that you should do these a little bit sleepy. I want you to explain why, while you answer the first one, which is that you're going to drill down to find your expertise. So, you're going to do this while you're sleepy. Tell us about that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. Especially this first one, because if you do it first thing in the morning, you think, "Well, I don't even know how I brushed my teeth this morning. Like I don't know anything about anything. I'll never figure it out." But if you take your whole day and you do a bunch throughout the day and you get out of your desk, you get out of your office, you go out into the world, and somebody asks you for advice and you come back and you think, "Well, I did give somebody advice today. And I actually last week I give somebody advice too." By the end of the day, when you're tired is when you are the most creative. It's not when you should balance your checkbook, or do anything mathematic, but it's when you can really think about your ideas.

Kathleen Celmins:
And so, when you're drilling down on your expertise, there's a lot of different ways to come about it. It's what do you love doing? I don't start with that, but what do people ask you about? What are you the go-to expert in at work? What do your friends ask you about? What section of the bookstore or the library do you head toward every time without fail? That's different for everybody. What are the ordinary things that you find yourself explaining frequently that come really easy to you, but you see people taking a bunch of notes on? That's a good starting point for people who think, "Man, there's a lot of money out there to be made. I don't know how to get a piece of it." To me, that's a really good place to start.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, like you said, when you're at the end of the day, you sort of have this cumulative knowledge of all the things that you've been saying all day, and maybe some of those ideas will bubble to the top and be top of mind. And, hopefully, you'll smile at all of the topics.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number two, it is the small ideas that make a lot of money. That's kind of counterintuitive because I always think like we're waiting for the big idea. It's the small ideas you say.

Kathleen Celmins:
Maybe small ideas, isn't the right word. But it's the most simple, the thing you could put on a bumper sticker. There's a lot of profound wisdom to be found in the smallest thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number three, not all hobbies and interests are meant to be monetized.

Kathleen Celmins:
That's kind of a note to myself or even all of the entrepreneur friends that I have. My example was a friend of mine asked me to photograph her wedding. And I thought, "Oh, that'd be really fun. I really like her. I love her fiance. I have a fun camera. I need a new light. Okay, whatever. That sounds fun." And I had a great time. We did an engagement session. I did wedding photos and it was really, really fun. And I came home and I thought, "I'm keeping that as a hobby because I don't want to take away the joy of just grabbing my camera and going out and photographing the sunset." If everything can be monetized, and everything, can you have to keep something sacred. And you have to kind of test to see where that line is. It's really hard to do, but it's the sort of thing where you want to keep your beginner's mindset, your amateur's mentality. It helps a lot.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I think that's really important to remember in this age where everyone says, "Follow your passion for your career," but maybe your passion should just be your passion. That's okay too. That's really important to remember that sometimes work can be work depending on it shouldn't be miserable, but it's okay for work to be work.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number four, find your overarching topic, idea, and word. So this is sort of an exercise that people go through.

Kathleen Celmins:
Right so in one of the MINDSTORMS, we talk about expertise and you come up with a whole bunch of lists. And then one of the things you do is you highlight, and circle, and underline or whatever the things that show up on more than one list. Those are the kinds of things that you think about. Like you putting your ideas, you're downloading your brain into folders those are the titles on the outside of your folders.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number five, this is something that I think a lot of your students kind of were hesitant about, but it is record yourself on video talking about your idea, and then watch it. The second part being even harder, I think. I have trouble watching myself and I make a living doing video content basically.

Kathleen Celmins:
Me too, and me too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah.

Kathleen Celmins:
It is hard. You will find though, where you stumble. And the more you practice, and the more you dig into why you're stumbling, the better you can be about articulating your ideas in the future.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what do you say to people that just are so hesitant?

Kathleen Celmins:
Don't publish it anywhere. Don't do it on YouTube Live. Just put it on your phone and watch it yourself. To your same point about not every hobby needs to be monetized, not everything you do on your phone, or on your computer needs to be public.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's such a good reminder.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, the next one is people are willing to pay to solve problems. So, come up with a list of problems you can solve. This, I think, is so important because there's so many products out there and ideas that may sound like a great idea, but if it doesn't solve a problem it's really hard to monetize sometimes.

Kathleen Celmins:
It's also really hard to talk about complicated solutions. And so, the more complex your solution, the more likely you are, as a person, as a business owner, to really talk about the details of the solution. But remembering that people do pay to solve problems period. And that's another way to get at what your expertise is. So, what are the problems that you can solve? Not what are the problems you can solve better than anyone else in the world, but what are some of the problems that people come to you with, and leave with a resolution?

Kathleen Celmins:
The more you can drill down on that, the easier it is to sell. If the problem you're solving is how to look good on your Instagram feed all day, every day. Great. That is a very specific problem you can solve. That's not mine, but...

Bobbi Rebell:
But it does sell. I mean people will absolutely pay to have someone help them with their social media.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right number seven, very near and dear to my heart and to yours, write a book and step on a stage.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. And those are hard as I have just recently found out.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Kathleen Celmins:
But it's a really good way to package up a lot of the things that you know. And writing a book is really challenging for the simple reason that you think you have to distill all of the knowledge you've ever gained into one book. And so, one of the things I say in the book is no, write your first of 10 books. Commit to writing 10 books. Then, that first one is nowhere near the mountain it was when you thought you had to write your odyssey, basically, on that. And stepping on a stage is hard also but, depending on who you are, it's nowhere near as hard as writing a book.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I agree with that. And stepping on stage, once you're on stage, it's much easier. It's the moment before you go on that's really the hardest.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number eight, create digital products. This is something I have really struggled with. You've urged me to do a video course and I am pushing back on you. I'm a bad student. All right, create digital products. Tell us more about that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah so, let's take the how to look good on your Instagram feed all day, every day. That's a very specific problem that you can solve. And it's probably not one you can just say, "Be yourself and smile more." One of the things you want to do is really show people exactly the step by step process. And, in order to do that, you give them the steps they need. And so, that can take a lot of different forms.

Kathleen Celmins:
Digital courses are really popular right now. Independent one on one coaching can be something you do. In fact, I say to lead with that because if you're coaching somebody through it, take notes, tell them, "First thing you need to do is make sure you have good lighting." Oh, good. Okay so, step one, lighting. So, then you're building out your digital product as you're getting paid to.

Bobbi Rebell:
So smart.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number nine, every 90 days find a new income stream to build. So, you're doing that. Are you keeping the old ones, or you're sort of dropping the ones that weren't working every 90 days?

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah so, it totally depends.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Kathleen Celmins:
So 90 days, to me, I think of that meme, the diamond mine, one where the person turns around right before they get the big diamond. You want to make sure you give it a full 90 days and, again, a lot of this is notes to myself, or my past self. That got to a point where I was convinced that people didn't need marketing help at one point, because I had not asked more than a handful of people, if they needed marketing help. And if I had not given it that full 90 days, spoiler alert, they do. Everybody needs marketing. But if you don't give it the full effort, if you don't decide to commit to something for an entire quarter, you're going to give up before you hit that diamond.

Kathleen Celmins:
And, to your point, not every one of them is going to hit. Maybe this market isn't interested in that solution. You're not going to know that until you've had conversations for three months. And so, giving yourself permission to change every three months, but also give yourself permission to stay the course for three months. Because every 90 days sounds, when we're talking about it, sounds like no time at all. But, when you're in the middle of it, feels like forever. The consistency will pay off down the line.

Bobbi Rebell:
The next one is build content on what you own not rent because the rules can change.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yes. So, you only own two things, and you don't even really because you're renewing your domain, but the two things you own are your website content and your email list. Everything else is at the mercy of somebody else's algorithm. And the algorithm is set up to make the people stay on that platform. Not to help individual business owners grow their own businesses on their platform. That's true across the board. So that's true with all social media platforms. It's true with course platforms. It's true with email lists that get your content.

Kathleen Celmins:
So if you have a newsletter, keep it on something that you can always access. If you have a course, make sure you know the rules of who owns your content. For a lot of times, the content is owned by, or kept hostage by the course platform. I have a former client who had a course that was selling really well, and then had six chargebacks in three weeks. And the platform locked her out of the content that she created. She could not communicate with. So, there's a lot of things that seem really easy are really... To me it's like building a house on rented land. "Okay, you can have this house. You live in it as long as you want. I'll never charge you rent," until they do right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Kathleen Celmins:
Then you've got something you did not anticipate.

Bobbi Rebell:
The final thing I want to have you talk about is that commercial success is not passive. There are so many people out there talk about digital courses, on all this passive income tell us the deal.

Kathleen Celmins:
Okay, the only passive income are investments where your money is making money on its money. That's it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Like stocks, you're talking about stocks, things like that.

Kathleen Celmins:
Yeah. Anything like that, where you put money in the market and you decide to take it out another time. That's it, that's the long and short of passive income. The rest of it takes a lot of work, which is why it's worth thinking about in terms of, yes, there's so much money to be made on the internet where, at the very beginning of it, you can have your piece of it, but it's not something where you can just set up a sales page and then get your Lamborghini tomorrow.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. And even people talk about real estate is passive income. It's not passive because you're either managing it yourself, dealing with tenants, or whatever, the electricity is out, or you're paying a management company. Someone has to be in charge. And so, therefore it's never passive.

Kathleen Celmins:
Right. Really, honestly, the only passive income is when your money is making money on itself in the stock market in general. So, thinking about that in terms of you're going to build this, you're going to build something, you're going to download ideas from your brain you can't just sit back and wait for something to happen. You got to work toward it and it's worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I think your book MINDSTORMS is definitely going to help a lot of people that can't get to you. Personally, reading really feels like you're there with you in a session with your three or four, a tight group going through these exercises. I particularly loved the back half of the book because you're very specific about exactly what to do and the steps to take. It's not one of these sort of just thoughtful books where you're just thinking about things. There's actual steps of specific things that people should be doing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about where we can find the book and where we can learn more about you and all of your stuff going on, all of your products.

Kathleen Celmins:
Sure. Thank you for saying that the book has its own URL. It's mindstormsbook.com and then I am, myself, on all of my social media. So I'm @KathleenCelmins on Instagram and Twitter, I have a lower presence on Facebook. But my business website is amplified, past tense, now.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that name.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thanks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for being here.

Kathleen Celmins:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. This was wonderful.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, much great advice from Kathleen. I've gotten a lot, as I said, behind the scenes over the years. And I'm really glad that I was able to share some of her experience, and her guidance with all of you. So, definitely check out the book because there's a lot more there.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I related to so much of what we went over, especially the idea of not just speaking on video, I don't have so much trouble speaking on video, but watching myself back, that is really hard for me. It's part of why I'm bad about posting my appearances on TV, and the quotes in the press on my social media. I post a small fraction and I really should be better at that because do get a lot of nice feedback, and support from you guys when I do do that. So, hopefully, I'm sort of manifesting it by staying out loud. Hopefully, some of you will hold me accountable to it and I'll start posting a little bit more of those to share with you guys because they are kind of fun and I do enjoy it when I get the feedback from all of you. So thank you for that.

Bobbi Rebell:
And thank you also for listening and supporting this podcast. If you're any value out of this, please consider giving back by sharing on social media. Tag me, of course. Or write a review, or even just make sure that you're subscribed. It's now called follow on some platforms. So, this podcast, I do it for you guys. I don't make any money on this podcast. I don't take outside advertisers. I just share with you my Grownup Gear, which I hope you do support grownupgear.com. So, helping me grow the show is really all that I ask in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please make sure to check out Kathleen's book, MINDSTORMS: 25 Exercises to Discover Your Inner Entrepreneur. And, of course, big thanks to Kathleen Celmins for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends, and treating yourself as well. And, most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Want to have more money AND a better planet? Learn what we can control that really matters- and what we are over stressing about when it comes to climate change, waste, carbon offsets, plastic straws and all those questions about which milk to order from Wallet Activist author Tanja Hester. 

Money Tips

• Why you might want to consider joining the sharing economy

• Donating isn’t always a good thing.

• Learn what some alternatives are.

• Beware the DIY trap

• What it means to factor in your own financial well being and how to do that
  

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Follow Tanja!

• Instagram - @our_nextlife

• Facebook - @ournextlife

• Twitter - @our_nextlife

• Pinterest - @our_nextlife

• YouTube

• Website - https://ournextlife.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love. But the truth is, it's also really hard and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear, with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, "I can't believe you are the grownup either." And new colors and designs of our top selling Generosity Line. And for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our Generosity Collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous to, well, yourself. Just use code holiday. Holiday. Thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps support projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays, guys.

Tanja Hester:
I love the idea of actually making yourself face up to your food waste, like put a bucket in the fridge or in the freezer and collect all the food waste that your family, or you, create for a week, two weeks, whatever it takes. Then I think most people, when you see it, it's sort of like when you really see what you're spending your money on, it's very eye-opening and that can be really motivating.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of, How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, everyone. That opening clip, from Tanja Hester, it's a bit much, while it would certainly be very impactful for my family, if we all put our wasted food in a bucket, in our refrigerator for a week, to see just how bad we are with wasting food. We already know that. Let's just be honest. We know we're terrible at it. So, that's part of why I wanted to talk to Tanja. And if her name by the way, sounds familiar, that's because she's been here before talking about her first book, Work Optional. Even though she is technically retired, that's the title of her book, Tanja is so passionate out the topic for her new book, Wallet Activism, that she couldn't help but write at least one more book. Tanja is also a familiar name to many of you because of her successful blog, Our Next Life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now in our interview, Tanja and I talk about everything from the sharing economy on a practical basis, because we say that a lot, but I don't know if we really do it in real life. Also, her unique take on Marie Kondo, when it matters to buy organic or even grass-fed, and also why I'm being ripped off when I get oat milk in my coffee and they charge me more. Apparently, it doesn't really cost more. We're going to learn a lot more from Tanja about kind of how everything fits into the ecosystem. It's pretty interesting stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here is Wallet Activism, author Tanja Hester.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tanja Hester. You're a financial grownup. Welcome back to the podcast.

Tanja Hester:
Thank you so much for having me back.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am excited to have you back to talk about your latest project. It's a book and it's a podcast called Wallet Activism: How To Use Every Dollar You Spend, Earn And Save, As A Force For Change. This is a follow-up book, well really a separate book, but your second book, to Work Optional, which I really enjoyed and was a huge bestseller. So congratulations and welcome back.

Tanja Hester:
Thank you so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's talk about the money tips that you share in Wallet Activists. The first one has to do with the sharing economy and kind of taking it to a next level. This is not just about sharing an Uber ride and that kind of thing. This is about just don't buy stuff.

Tanja Hester:
Share it.

Bobbi Rebell:
But you have various specific ways this can actually happen because some people, myself included as I started to read this part of the book, are doing some eye rolls right now.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah, you know, I think that the way that our economy and society have gone, they've worked to make everything cheaper, so that we've been trained out of thinking of different ways of acquiring something.

Tanja Hester:
So let's say you're doing a home improvement project and you think, "Oh, I'm going to need a saw for this." You look at Home Depot, it's only $60 to buy a saw and you think, "Oh, that's not bad. I'll just buy it." But then suddenly we've got a situation where we all have a ton of stuff sitting around that's really resource intensive to produce, impossible to recycle, that'll be obsolete after however many years, or it'll just sit in your garage or closet and rust and not be usable after a long time.

Tanja Hester:
But instead, we could all go back to how folks used to think about these things. I'm not saying this to like, oh, the good old days were the best or anything like that. But in this particular area, the idea of borrowing things or why does everyone on a block need own their own lawnmower? Why couldn't you share with different neighbors? Why couldn't you rent a saw or a drill for the project and then give it back and someone else can use it.

Tanja Hester:
A lot of the tips that I offer, I think this is a good example, are both good for the planet and other people, so we're not contributing a whole bunch of demand for stuff that's ultimately just going through our resources, resulting in a lot of carbon emissions, resulting in exploitation of workers, but it's also saving you money. You know, renting a power tool is a lot cheaper than buying it. The same is true if you share something across multiple neighbors, or friends, or whatever makes sense in your situation. Obviously not everybody has a house and a yard, but fill in the blanks with your stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
You talk throughout the book, by the way, about factoring in your own financial wellbeing and it's important to look out for yourself and don't always be... The dominant thing doesn't have to always be giving, giving, giving. Part of giving is creating your own financial foundation and maintaining it.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also say some things that make sense, but only after you explain it, because they're a little bit counterintuitive. For example, Marie Kondo, cleaning out. Minimalism has been a big trend, but it's not really that simple. You have some interesting thoughts about donations and what we do with our stuff because we all have so much stuff. We think we're doing good when we donate it and we certainly have good intentions, but explain. It's not so simple, right?

Tanja Hester:
Yeah. You know, the most important part to me of Marie's message is actually take good care of the things that you own and help them last longer. I think that part's been totally lost in favor of, trash anything that doesn't spark joy. The problem is that we have such a huge flow of things going to donation centers. You know, everybody loves to take their garbage bags full of stuff to Goodwill, that most of what Goodwill does is actually not sell our discards. It's actually throw them away and they pay a huge amount of money every month, as do other charitable organizations that take donations in physical form, just to send stuff to the landfill.

Tanja Hester:
I think if we all knew that what we were donating was most likely either going to the landfill or worse, getting loaded on a ship and sent to Africa, where it was decimating local textile industries, I think we would be a lot more thoughtful about it, but we feel like we're sending stuff out and it's doing good rather than we're sending stuff to the trash, I think we would approach things differently.

Tanja Hester:
So, I propose a different standard rather than sparking joy or using it, and thinking instead about, could I get more useful life out of this and maybe it's repurposing it in some way. It doesn't have to be wearing a dress that you hate forever, or a dress that doesn't fit. You know, it's thinking, could I use the fabric and make something else with it or whatever it might be. If you can't that, then working a little bit harder to put those items, you're discarding into the hands of someone who will actually use them, rather than just sort of blindly sending them off to the donation center.

Tanja Hester:
So rather whether it's trading with friends, or listing things online, or on a buy nothing group, there's so many different options now for discarding things a bit more thoughtfully, that will make sure we're not just sending huge amounts of stuff to the landfill and even worse than filling that empty space with new stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Very well said. And you have a lot of specific resources in the book and through your website, et cetera, that we can refer people to, to get more details on how to actually do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another interesting thing, we're talking about activism, but also money tips, is to be aware of the DIY trap. People think if they do it themselves, they're going to save money and it's all good and it's great, but there's a lot to be wary about there.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah. You know, I think if folks have hobbies that are doing things yourself, making kombucha, for example, that can actually be a great way to save resources because you don't need special gear to make kombucha versus buying a steady stream of bottles from the store. If you like to drink it often, you can reuse the same bottles over and over and over, if you make it yourself.

Tanja Hester:
But there are other things that are DIY where you sort of say, "Well, you know, if everyone just did this ourselves, we'd actually save resources." And that's in fact not true. If we all tried to grow all our own food, think about how much more equipment we'd all need. We'd all need hoses and tools and all the things you need to garden. I garden myself. It's my favorite hobby, but I do it because I love it, not because I'm under any illusions about it being some better way, where we'd also have to all spread out across the land when we should be leaving more of that land alone so that it can sequester carbon and just not have human impact on it.

Tanja Hester:
I think about a lot of folks I know here who love to home brew. And if you really love that and you're going to do it for a long time, that's great. But if you're thinking, "Oh, I buy a lot of beer and that comes with cans and bottles." Think about how much gear you actually need to do home brewing. You need all these buckets and you need metal tubes and you need a lot of stuff. And if you do what a lot of folks do, which is invest in all the gear and then give up that hobby, you've now gotten a whole bunch of stuff that's very specialized, that you can't easily use for other things, and then you're still having all the waste of the bottles and cans. Which by the way, bottles and cans, people shouldn't stress about. Just make sure they get recycled. Those are actually recycled at a high rate and are not a huge deal.

Tanja Hester:
So, that's really where I say it. It's also, I don't want anyone to feel pressure to DIY things, when you have a very busy life and you've got demands on your time. You need to work. You need to earn a living. All the things you need to do. I say, do DIY stuff if you love it, if it's fulfilling to you in some way but don't feel like you must. If that's not something that's doable for you, there are other good ways to be a wallet activist.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that theme that also runs throughout your book where you do talk about the fact that people should be realistic about what they can do. It doesn't have to be all at once. You don't need to overhaul your life immediately upon reading the book and treat it like a checklist and go through each thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And most importantly, don't be judgy about other people. You make a big point about the fact that if you feel passionate about something like I don't eat meat and it's for a number of reasons, but I'm also aware of a lot of the things that you talk about in the book. But I don't tell other people not to do that. I just say, "I don't eat meat," and I leave it at that. Let them do that. If they ask you more questions, then absolutely you can share some more information, but it's important to not impose your views too strongly because it can backfire.

Tanja Hester:
It absolutely can backfire. You know, I think there is ample research to show that shaming people doesn't work. Shaming corporations, that can work.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. That's a PR campaign. That's a whole different thing.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah. Shaming, very, very wealthy people can work in some instances. But shaming individuals really doesn't work and so there's no point in doing it.

Tanja Hester:
But the other thing and something that I really set out to do with this book is to balance both environmental concerns and human concerns. Oftentimes, those things are posited as opposites, as you can do one but not the other, and I just reject that. I think it's so important that we start thinking about both our fellow humans and the planet together and when we talk about climate change, that we're also talking about inequality and how all of that ties together. That's a big part of it.

Tanja Hester:
I think sometimes in the interest of making an environmental choice, we do things that hurt people. An example I use in the book is the popularity right now of plastic drinking straw bans that are going into place all over the country, all over the world. Those are doing a lot of harm actually to disabled communities. There's this thought of like, "Well, but you have all these other choices. You could use a paper straw." Well guess what? A lot of disabled folks say those don't work. They don't work in hot beverages. They aren't positionable.

Tanja Hester:
Okay, well what about that fancy stainless steel straw? Well, not everyone can afford that. First of all, they're expensive. And second, how are you supposed to clean that on the go and use it every time you're out and about. And so we just aren't having enough of that conversation of balancing both. And so if you're talking about shaming people who use single use plastics, or my favorite is seeing the tweet, that's like, "Hey, look at this peeled apple that's wrapped in plastic." Like, yeah. Okay. That is a lot of plastic. That's a bummer. But guess what? The people who need that are people with disabilities, where they can't use their hands properly, or they don't trust themselves to use a knife.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to go through kind of a quick hits list of food advice because this was my favorite area of the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
First of all, the question on everyone's mind, the whole organic thing and I'm going to throw in there the whole grass-fed thing, because my son Bradley, he wanted everything grass-fed for a while and it's really expensive, but is it bad if we don't buy grass-fed everything and organic everything? I know the prices are coming down for organic, but talk to us.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah, it's funny. Organic is often posited as sort of the panacea. This will fix everything and if you actually look at the science of it, and I say this as a person who loves to buy organic, so I'm talking to myself here too. The truth is a lot of organically produced food actually has a much bigger climate impact than things that are produced more conventionally.

Tanja Hester:
With grass-fed beef, for example, or grass-fed dairy, the cows have to live a lot longer because grass is much less caloric than the grain they're fed in feed lots and so the cows who live in feed lots, those are terrible conditions. I think we can all agree on that and they have a lot of waste they have to deal with. It's not a good system. We need to reform it, but those cows live less than half as long, to get to the same size as the cows that are fed grass.

Tanja Hester:
So if we are just looking at how much beef we want to produce, grass-fed actually has a much, much higher climate impact. So that's not to say-

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah. It's not to say the industrial side is great, but organic is not automatically a cure-all. I recommend that folks look at organic for most animal products, if possible, and certain produce, especially things that are grains, so that you're avoiding Roundup glyphosate. But I think folks will be shocked to hear that I recommend a lot of non-organic too, because of both the climate impact and the worker impact.

Tanja Hester:
There are a lot more injuries associated with organic fruits and vegetables because they have to do absolutely everything by hand. So those are important things to consider that I haven't seen be included in the conversation so far.

Bobbi Rebell:
What do we do about the whole milk options thing? Because first I was putting almond milk in my coffee. I felt really good about it and then I heard it was really bad. Now I'm doing oat milk but I also feel like rice milk. But I know from your book, rice milk is also not so good. So what do we do? What do we do, Tanja? And the price is that they're always charging me more for... I mean, do we have to pay more for the oat milk? Is it really more for the oat milk or are the coffee place is just charging us more because they can?

Tanja Hester:
With oat milk in particular, they're charging you more because they can. Oats are incredibly cheap to produce. If you were getting organic oats, which is actually really hard to find, that could be worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I have no idea.

Tanja Hester:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
No idea.

Tanja Hester:
Most oats are sprayed with Roundup and people don't like hearing that, but the pesticide and herbicide levels in oat-based products are really high. In terms of dairy, non-dairy milks, I mean honestly, I think the answer I want to give folks is don't stress that much about it. Any plant-based milk is better for the planet, for people, for animal welfare, than dairy.

Tanja Hester:
So this getting ourselves tied up in knots about how many gallons go into a gallon of almond milk? Okay, yeah. Like that's true but it also is true that we're reforesting California Central Valley, when we grow almond trees that are replacing cotton, which is a much more water intensive crop.

Tanja Hester:
So everything exists on a spectrum. My point is not to try to get people twisted in knots. It's to say actually, stop twisting yourself in knots. If you're doing any non-dairy milk, you're doing great. Do organic with soy and with oat. With the rest, don't stress about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Final question before we wrap up. Give us your tips about food waste because food waste really costs people so much money, myself included. I am terrible at food inventory management. Things go bad all the time. I have the best intentions. I want to do a fancy recipe and then I'm missing one ingredient. I don't do it that night and then it just never happens and that fabulous herb that I bought goes bad. What do we do?

Tanja Hester:
Yeah. You know, food waste is a huge, huge problem. So some tips are, a lot of these I think folks have probably seen around, but making a meal plan before you shop, trying not to shop for a few weeks so that you can eat down what you already have. I love your example of the recipe. You know, don't buy some fad ingredient unless you have the recipe and have all the things for it and you know, you're going to make it right away.

Tanja Hester:
I love the idea of actually making yourself sort of face up to your food waste. Put a bucket in the fridge or in the freezer and collect all the food waste that your family or you create for a week, two weeks, whatever it takes. And then I think most people, when you see it, it's sort of like when you really see what you're spending your money on, it's very eyeopening and that can be really motivating. So once you see the types of foods you're wasting most, or where the sources are, you can start to come up with a plan. Maybe it's serving smaller portions for everyone, but letting them take seconds instead of putting big portions on the plate. Once you've sort of come face-to-face with your food waste, you can make a plan to reduce it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. I'm kind of sitting here processing that, getting ready to reveal that to my husband, who I'm sure will be thrilled to have all of our food waste in our refrigerator, front and center, for a week. So we're going to work on that here in my home, but in the meantime, Tanja, congratulations on the book again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where can people be in touch with you? I know the book is going to be available everywhere, so please pick up Wallet Activism, everyone. Where can they reach you?

Tanja Hester:
My website is ournextlife.com and I'm most active on Twitter and Instagram and that's at our_nextlife. I also recently joined TikTok, which is so embarrassing for a person over 40. That's @walletactivism.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love it and you have a podcast as well, right? Now with Wallet Activism?

Tanja Hester:
Yes, that's right. It's called Wallet Activism, same as the book, and you can find it in all the podcast places.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Tanja Hester:
Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many takeaways from our interview. I personally am bracing for a big post-pandemic closet clean-out and knowing what Tanja had to say about what really goes on when we donate clothing and other goods to charity is really making me think twice about what to do with all of that. So I'm definitely going to be checking out those, buy nothing groups, because I really have so much stuff that is perfectly good. I don't want to throw it out because it's perfectly good but if I said it to charity, well, it may not get to the right place either.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay my friends. There was a lot to digest in this episode, but do not stress. We have it all for you right on my website. You can get a full transcript of the show, along with resources and so on, by going to my website, Bobbirebell.com and just click on the podcast tab.

Bobbi Rebell:
What got you thinking in this interview? For me, it was the whole plastic straw thing. It shows we really have to think broadly about these decisions and there's a lot of gray areas out there. You really have to think through what this means for different people versus what this also means for our planet. It's complicated. DM me and let me know your take and what really stood out to you. On Instagram, I am at BobbiRebell1. The number one.

Bobbi Rebell:
Big thanks to Wallet Activism author, Tanja Hester, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, Bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a Financial Grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast, it's brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at Bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me, so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts reading. Each one means the world to me and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

How To Fund Your Dream Project

Learn how to optimize a kickstarter campaign, and the big mistake that slipped through the cracks for entrepreneur and personal finance teacher Rob Phelan- including how he raised more than double his goal and published his children’s book with almost no financial risk.

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Follow Rob!

• Facebook - @TheSimpleStartUp

• Twitter - @ASimpleStartUp

• LinkedIn - @robphelan

• Website - www.thesimplestartup.com

• Rob’s book - M is for Money

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates, if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Rob Phelan:
All people need to see sometimes is that somebody else is doing it before they'll jump in and do it themselves. We love to do what other people are doing.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what, when it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hi, friends. Who among us doesn't have that dream project. We'd love to make time for, but we also need to make sure we've got the funds to pay for it ideally in advance. Well, in the opening clip, you heard entrepreneur and personal finance teacher, Rob Phelan, talking about the fact that he used, well, not quite peer pressure. Let's call it peer influence to get donors like myself on board his dream project before even the official Kickstarter campaign started. I have to say I was impressed, but as I've gotten to know, Rob, I'm not that surprised. After all he teaches this stuff. He has The Simple Startup, which teaches teens how to start a business. And his day job includes teaching high school kids about personal finance.

Bobbi Rebell:
But raising money on Kickstarter is not for the faint of heart. You need to know what you're doing. So we're going to get you there. Remember no need to take notes. I know you'll be tempted, but you can always just go to my website. It's just my name, bobbirebell.com for show notes, including a full transcript. We've got you covered. Here is Rob Phelan. Rob Phelan, You're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Rob Phelan:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I actually invited you on. I've been trying to get you on. I think this is our third attempt because you have a book coming out called M is for Money. It's a fantastic book for children. We're going to talk a little bit about the book, but then we're going to get to what I really want to talk about, which is that this was a dream project. And I want people to hear how you got this dream project funded, but first tell us about M is for Money.

Rob Phelan:
Yeah, M is for Money is a dream project that I brought to life over this past year. It is a children's book. So I'm a high school personal finance teacher, but I wrote a children's book targeted at three to eight year olds that is an ABCs of money book. So it's going to introduce kids to a new letter, a new focus word that has to do with money. And then it's also going to give them illustration and a mini story on every page that shows the money word in action. And the whole goal behind the book is to try and get kids to build a positive relationship with money and to start having conversations about it from a young age. So breaking this idea that money is something shameful, or embarrassing, or taboo, or not a table conversation. We're going to try and change that because if we get kids who are confident about money and confident in their ability to ask questions and find answers, they're by default going to make better money decisions as they get older and turn into adults.

Bobbi Rebell:
This was a dream of yours and you got really creative with the funding. You went to Kickstarter. I'm very proud to say I was someone that helped to fund this dream of yours. Tell us about how you funded it, why you went that way, and the dos and don'ts. Well, that was a lot. So start with just the beginning.

Rob Phelan:
In my other, other, other, other job, I'm a person who's a big proponent in multiple streams of income. So I have my own company called the Simple Startup where I have 10 to 18 year old young entrepreneurs start their first businesses. And one of the things that I preach to them, or I talk to them about is how do you start a business for free? And we think most 10 to 18 year olds, you don't have a ton of capital available. You're not getting a loan from anyone unless your parents are feeling bad for you. So we need to start for free, or we need to start really cheap. And one of the ways to do that is to pre-sell your value. And Kickstarter is one of these companies out there that allows you to do that. I had the idea, I came up with my first draft and then some very crew graphics.

Rob Phelan:
And I started with that and I started telling people, look, I'm going to do this Kickstarter. It's where you pre-sell the book, or the game, or whatever it is you're creating. And people come on and say, I'm really interested in seeing this thing come to life. I'm going to back this project. There's usually multiple tiers that they can back at. So the lowest being just a hard cover copy of the book. And then it goes up to donating multiple copies of the book to different title one schools or public libraries. You are one of the backers who came in at a very special secret reward tier. So that was by invitation only. Where you came in and your, I guess, what are we going to call it? Your merchandise, your brand is somewhere inside,

Bobbi Rebell:
Grownup gear.

Rob Phelan:
The book. It's yes, it is a Easter egg inside of the book. So it's a secret kind of in the background kind of thing, but people will eventually notice it. And that was a big thank you for the wonderful support you showed me at the beginning. But yeah, Kickstarter is the way that I chose to fund this book. So I didn't want to put a ton of my own money into this. I wanted to first test out the idea and see do people actually want it, so they don't give you their true opinion until you actually ask them for money.

Rob Phelan:
And then also could I raise enough to cover the illustration costs and the printing costs of getting an offset run done and then be able to donate. I wanted to donate at least 300 books to title one schools and public libraries. And I think we hit all of those goals. We smashed our goals. Our goal was $6,000 and we hit 13,704. So it was,

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Rob Phelan:
Phenomenal success and really gave me the, I guess, courage to go forward and say like, yes, people want this. Go for it. Let's bring it to life. Let's make it happen.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now it's interesting. So you say you needed $6,000. How did you come up with that figure? What was the backend budgeting ahead of time? How did you even know what this project would cost?

Rob Phelan:
So back in budgeting, it was pretty much predicting out costs. So I was able to figure out, okay, this is what printing would cost. And that's kind of, one of the ones that you have to think about is like, how much does it cost to print a book? And then you have to do it in quantities usually of like 500 or 1,000. So I knew at the very minimum, I was going to have to print 500 of these things and that was going to cost me about $3,000. And if I go up to $1,000, it would cost me five. So the economies of scale was great. You could do more books. And then the illustrator was a flat fee and I interviewed a couple of illustrators. And so I knew I needed about 1500 to cover illustrations. And then there's just like getting an ISBN number for a book, which I didn't realize was a cost, thing that you had to do and registering the Library of Congress.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, how does all this work? How did you find out what a illustrator costs, what the printing costs? I mean, what were your sources for this? Were you tapping into a network? Were you just Googling? I have a traditional publisher. I know nothing about any of this and I'm very curious.

Rob Phelan:
So I cheated a little bit and I hired an author coach for an independent author.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's not cheating, that's your strategy. You hired an... I know, but its true. That is the answer. You hired someone to create a shortcut to give you the information in a more efficient way than if you had spent the time kind of scrounging around looking for stuff. So that might be a good tip for people, is find an expert and then use that person's expertise to limit the amount of time you have to spend, because time is a currency. So you were able to do them. You have a two year old, you have a full time job, you have stuff going on.

Rob Phelan:
And I say cheated in the sense that I threw some of my own money at that first, but then I made it back in the Kickstarter. So I didn't do it totally for free upfront. I did throw some of my own money in, in the beginning to get started, knowing that I would make it back on the back end if the Kickstarter was successful, which I was very confident it would be.

Rob Phelan:
But the person I hired was M.K. Williams. She's the author of the Author Your Ambition series. So she's very big on helping independent authors just kind of go through the steps, kind of like I do with Simple Startup and helping people start the businesses, she helps independent authors to navigate the idea of like registering for ISBN numbers, registering with the Library of Congress. How do you get your book from the printer, so you can print your own copies, but how do you get it on like Amazon, or Target, or Barnes & Noble? How does that process work? She was the one who was kind of walking me through all those steps and just for a flat fee, which was great. So it's not like I've lost part of the ownership of the book or royalties or anything like that. It was a wonderful arrangement that really helped me a lot and-

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. No. Yeah, that's a big money tip is, if you do hire someone, make a proactive decision, are you going to pay them a flat fee? And then you retain ownership. And I'm sure some people, if they believe in a project, might be willing to work for free, but take a percentage. So that's a decision that someone would make if they have a project like this. Tell me, I want to hear what went right, but first we're going to go through some missteps. Because I know it wasn't all smooth sailing.

Rob Phelan:
No, definitely not. So I'm not a marketing major by any stretch. I help kids learn to start their businesses. I'm not someone who's going to help you become a multi-million dollar business. That's the next step up for me. So I'm your first entry into entrepreneurship. And that's what I like to talk to my students about in schools. Like here's how you get started. And then there are multiple courses, degrees, things you can do for marketing. So marketing was something that I had to learn a lot about as I went. Did some good things, did some not great things. Overall, we got the Kickstarter going, it got over the line, which was the big thing. The hardest one for me was after I had finished the Kickstarter I put in the order for the books, they had arrived. I had packaged them up nicely. I sent them to everyone.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you wait, wait, let me just stop. You handled the actual shipping and delivery to each of your Kickstarter contributors.

Rob Phelan:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Like I received a book. You packed my book.

Rob Phelan:
Me or my mother-in-law. My mother-in-law has been my like fulfillment center.

Bobbi Rebell:
Family. Okay. So getting family to work for free. There's another money tip. Okay. So you did the physical labor of actually taking the time. You didn't outsource that at all. That's a lot. A lot of people don't realize like entrepreneurship, when you're starting out, you're doing everything.

Rob Phelan:
Yeah. And there was the option of having a fulfillment center do it. So Kickstarter, as soon as you run one, you'll start getting plagued by emails of people being like, Hey, I want to run your campaign for you. I want to do your fulfillment for you. And you'll lose about another 10 to 15% of the money you make just doing fulfillment if you hire somebody to do it, because they're going to take quite a significant cut to do that. And I figured for the, I ended up doing 739 books. So 340 were donated and then the rest were going to backers. So I was like, okay, it's a lot, but I can handle this. I can do it. My mother-in-law was very willing to be like a home base for it. So she's letting me take an entire room in her house at the moment where there's just boxes of books sitting and envelopes and bookmarks and stickers and all this other stuff that was going in there.

Rob Phelan:
But yeah, using your family, super good idea if they're willing to help out and she did not want any payment for it. I offered, she said, no. She just wanted to help. So that was a great thing to have. And I know not all of us have that network to fall back on, but if you do, don't be afraid to use it. But the mistake, the mistake we have to talk about. So no sooner had I sent all of these books out like 300 plus books had gone their Merry way. I dropped one off to my local library and I was like, Hey, I would love to use some of my allocation of donated books to give some to my local library. She emailed me back. She's like, oh, I love the book. Everything looks great. You can see how it's to be a wonderful resource for kids.

Rob Phelan:
But I can't put a book on the shelf that has a spelling error in it. And my heart stopped. I was like, what? No, there's no way. How does a children's book author have a spelling error? There's only like 300 words in the whole book. But yeah, sure enough I found the page and the word P-A-Y, so pay had an X instead of the Y. So the letters kind of look similar. I'm going with this, that everyone's brain was simply just reading over it the way the word was supposed to be understood in our heads. And all of us missed this. I read this book cover to cover 20, 30 times to spell check it. My wife did, a couple of other people were in focus groups for me and they did it too. None of us saw this spelling error until the librarian was like, Nope, can't put this on the shelf.

Rob Phelan:
So I had to email all of my Kickstarter backers and be like, I am so sorry. I sent you a book with a spelling error. If you would like a replacement copy, please let me know. I'll send you one for free. So that was a big, expensive learning lesson, but I think it was very important to acknowledge it and address it upfront and offered at least to fix the problem for people. And a lot of people are like, Nope, I want the collector edition of the book. So I've got something now that's a very limited edition. Then there were plenty who were like, yeah, I want to give this book away as a gift or I want to donate it. So I would like a corrected copy. So it's been a mixed result, but everyone has been very nice about it, which been the great part.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I think that's a good lesson for all the focus groups and everything you did. We're all human and things do happen and you have to just acknowledge it and figure out the best solution that you can and move on. Let's talk about what went right. When you look back now, what are you like yeah, that was genius.

Rob Phelan:
I'm going to do a little pat on the back for the secret reward tier. So like reaching out to you and a couple of other personal finance influencers. I handpicked the people I wanted to work with because I liked their brands. I liked who they were as a person, the message they were putting out there. And I wanted to be associated with them basically for all time, because your names were all printed in the back of the book, as well as having your stuff in the book somewhere as well. And that was a huge needle mover for getting initial backers in. So yours was in exchange for backing at least five books donated. So anyone who did the secret reward tier donated at least five books towards my 300. And then they also usually went on and shared it with their audiences.

Rob Phelan:
So like, Hey, I'm appearing in this book or my brand's appearing in this book. So you guys should go check out this book. I thought that was a great way to get some ownership from other people who are much bigger, wiser, more experienced than I was in terms of the personal finance world. It caused the Kickstarter to have a huge kickstart on day one. So like a lot of pledges came in day one, because I had lined up all of you secret reward tier backers to be like, please go in on day one, get your pledge in so I can add the illustrations in and keep this moving forward. But it caused the Kickstarter to like be 50%, 60% funded on the first day. All people need to see sometimes is that somebody else is doing it before they'll jump in and do it themselves. We love to do what other people are doing.

Rob Phelan:
The hardest part for a Kickstarter sometimes if you don't have a strong start, people kind of sit on the sidelines and they wait to see, is this going to get funded? Is it not? Should I jump in this? Should I not? Because if a Kickstarter does not reach its funding goal, nobody gets charged. So everyone has their credit card kind of like sitting on the side, they've pledged the money, but you don't get charged for it until the Kickstarter ends and the goal has been achieved.

Rob Phelan:
So I think a lot of people, they'll look at these projects and like, oh, it's got like 5,000 to go. It seems to be moving really slowly. I don't know if I'm even going to bother with this one because it doesn't look like it's going to meet its goal. And I could see a lot of great ideas don't make it over line because of that. They just don't have a strong start. And I think the secret reward tier was something that really allowed me to have that strong start and give people kind of that feeling of everybody else is doing it. I better do it too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I am honored to have been selected to participate in the secret tier. How can people learn more about you? I know the book is now available or will be soon on Amazon, M is for Money. Where else can people be in touch with you?

Rob Phelan:
Yeah. So I am on Instagram @misformoneybook, Facebook @misformoneybook, Twitter it's @fieducator, F-I-educator. If you're on LinkedIn, you're more than welcome to reach out to me, Rob Phelan. You'll find me there. And you can check out the website, misformoneybook.com. As you said, M is for Money is available for pre-order at the moment up until November 13th, 2021. So if you're hearing this after November 13th, you can just go buy the book right now. If it's before November 13th, you can pre-order your book at Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble, or bookshop.org. And I do encourage you to pre-order or order as soon as you can, if you are thinking about trying to get the book for the holidays, just because what we're hearing from the printers is that books are going to have a lot of supply chain problems and logistics problems over the winter holidays. And I know last year, even we had some where like I was ordering books and they were taking a month to get to where they were supposed to be. So highly encourage you if you are ordering books, whether it's my book or any other book, order them soon.

Bobbi Rebell:
So great. Thank you so much.

Rob Phelan:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. My friends that was a lot, but a lot of great stuff, right? What stood out to me was that Rob really needed to figure out ahead of time, how much the whole shebang would cost to make sure he didn't dig himself into a hole. So we need to research our costs including things like who is packing the boxes. I love the idea of having your family pitch in, but we don't always all have that available. So if they can't and you need to hire someone, just knowing what it would cost to outsource things like fulfillment is good business. You have options and you can make informed choices. Also, there is no such thing as proofreading too much. When Rob told me there was a typo, I tried to find it myself and I couldn't. Things do slip through the cracks. Really take those details seriously. We all need to be as detail oriented as possible.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also don't apologize for getting help if it gets you to your goal. Rob did hire a consultant, but even if the project didn't work out, it would have saved him so many wasted hours of research. In his case, he felt he had the green light after he had the information from the consultant. But you know what, if you bring in a consultant for a potential project and that helps you see that the numbers won't work on the project, that has a lot of value too.

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you got a lot of value from this podcast. I say this all the time but you know what, it's really true. You guys get used to it, but please do take a screenshot and do share it on social media. And please tag me so I can share it from there and bring in more grownups to this community. On Instagram, I'm @bobbirebell1, the number one and on Twitter, it's just Bobbi Rebell. M is for Money makes a great holiday gift. Order it now so it gets there when you need it on time. Lots of shipping delays these days. So don't hesitate. Big thanks to Rob Phelan for helping us all be financial grownups

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

The Squid Game is an intense look at the desperate measures people will take to get out of debt. While the story is fiction, the lessons we can take away about class divide, the reckless choices made when in debt, and the way money can reveal someone’s true character, are hitting home with so many of us.  ** spoiler alert**

Money Lessons for Grownups from the Netflix series "The Squid Game”

• You can’t judge people‘s wealth and success based on appearances.

• Money makes us do illogical, and often illegal things.

• Manage the pressure otherwise it will consume you.

• Betrayal comes from the people you trust the most.

• Strength is not always stronger.

• Wealthy people can abuse the vulnerability of people who have financial problems.

---

Follow Neil!

• Instagram - @kaufman.neil

• Facebook - @neil.kaufman.12

• LinkedIn - @neil-kaufman-4847a414

• Website - http://www.ey.com/

Follow Bobbi!

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• Twitter- @bobbirebell

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Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, Ts and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts.

Bobbi Rebell:
They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. You know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup and you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownups, welcome back. We are going to do something very special this week, starting with having back my number one, most favorite ever co-host, Mr. Neil Kaufman, aka, my husband. Welcome back, Neil.

Neil Kaufman:
Back on popular demand and for those of you that sent me fan letters, thank you. I appreciate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, Neil is poised to become a regular co-host on this show. And speaking of regular, a lot of the regular listeners do know that you were featured in our summer watch series where we talked about money related streaming shows and the lessons from them. Well, as of now, we're not going to do a whole series for fall, but there is a show that everyone, including Mr. Neil Kaufman, I should say, everyone is talking about that has some pretty intense money lessons.

Bobbi Rebell:
That show is the Netflix series, the Squid Game. Neil and I have been watching the series. We've already had some pretty intense discussions about it and so of course, I recruited him to come back to the podcast. So Neil, welcome.

Neil Kaufman:
Thank you. We're here to talk about Squid Game, which for those of you that have been I guess living under a rock and don't know about the Squid Game or haven't seen it yet, because it's the most popular show in lots of countries, it's a nine episode series about the lives of 456 people, all who need money.

Neil Kaufman:
They need it for lots of different reasons. They come from all walks of life. Some of drowning in debt, desperate for not being able to pay off their debt. Some people are thugs. Some people are white collar. Some people are just unlucky. But what they all have in common is they need money and they are willing to participate, willingly, they want to participate in this game to try and survive.

Neil Kaufman:
And they've got to play six Korean children's games where if you're the winner you're going to get a large sum of money, $46 billion Won, which is $38 million U.S. dollars. It's a high stakes game.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a lot of money. Okay. So I want to make sure everybody knows that we have watched all of the episodes and we are not going to be able to remember what to say and what not to say so there will be spoilers. So this is your cue, if we've interested you in watching the Squid Game and you haven't watched it yet, pause. Go watch it. It's nine episodes.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for most people they could binge it in a day or two. For me, because I fall asleep during everything, it took a little bit longer but Neil was patient. Go watch the Squid Game and then come back right here. This is where the spoilers are going to start. Starting with the fact that the main character is presented as sympathetic but a lot of eye rolls.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, he's massively in debt. He gambles away money that his mom ... By the way, he's 40 something and living with his mom, speaking of not being a financial grownup, of course. He's asking her for more money to buy his daughter a birthday present. He gambles it.

Bobbi Rebell:
All kinds of things happen but just the characters, it's not like they're all that sympathetic. A lot of them are basically making big money mistakes on their own and trying to find get rich quick schemes to begin with. Right, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
He's a likable guy but he's a schlump. It's just the guy, he does everything wrong. He's divorced. He's a gambler. I mean, he's got all the classic tell-tale signs of just being a not responsible person, both financially and emotionally. I mean, he doesn't even maintain a decent relationship with his daughter. I mean, or his mother.

Neil Kaufman:
Yes, he lives with his mom and we've heard that story all too often but he betrayed his mom. He canceled the insurance, her health insurance, which no shock there, an aging woman, she needed the insurance.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's another big spoiler. It comes up later. The other spoiler is that he wins money gambling. Okay, so now in theory you would think he would use this money that's he's gambled ... he wins on this horse betting, which is another thing that comes up. They're betting on horses. Is it different to bet on horses than humans? Think about that, everyone that's seen the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
But, he wins a huge amount of money and instead of using it to pay off his debt he starts gambling away with it again. He doesn't pay off the debt that owes. He gives a big tip to the person in the window and he wants to go shopping and buy extravagant things for his daughter that he's promising her all this stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Even when he gets her a present he does it through a gambling game, a children's game where he picks a present, which later on ... We don't have to spoil this but let's just say it's not a child appropriate gift that he ends up getting her and it's really just the ultimate symbol that this guy just can do no right and he's his own worst enemy really.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, Neil, we've set up the premise, we've got this guy, fast forward a little bit. He runs into someone who's effectively a salesman who convinces him to go into this game and he meets a van, gets gassed so he doesn't know where he's going. And he ends up in a dorm with 455 other people who are competing in this contest and basically they say that anyone that is not eliminated at the end of six children's games will win a huge prize of money. As you mentioned, the equivalent of $38 million. But there's more to it.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah. So they're playing these games but they don't realize it until they get into the first game, what it's really all about. So the idea is some people win the game, some people lose the game. If you lose, by the rules that are put in place, you are effectively eliminated from the game. And elimination means death.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. And note, for the very first game they don't know that. They just know you're eliminated and they assume, I think understandably, that they would just go home. It becomes clear very quickly and it's a very gory scene that being eliminated is death.

Bobbi Rebell:
So after that, through a little TMI, we won't get into it. The players do choose to go home. They end the game and they play one game and by going home they have forfeited the opportunity to win the money and they go back to their dreary lives. And we talked about the main character but many of the other characters have very unfortunate situations with money.

Bobbi Rebell:
They're all desperate for money, to either save face. There's an immigrant theme here, to get their relatives out of North Korea, into Korea, to feed their families. To pay off gambling debts. All kinds of different reasons why people need the money. As Neil mentioned, white collar crime and so on.

Bobbi Rebell:
They go back to their lives. What's shocking to me is that of the people that go back to their lives and have the opportunity to not die in pursuit of this money, 87% of them choose voluntarily to participate in a life or death game where it's pretty logical that most of the people are not going home with the millions of dollars.

Neil Kaufman:
I think it really shows the desperation. So they went into the game originally knowing or not really knowing that much about it but after they realize that it was a fight to the death and they would actually potentially sacrifice their life and they go back home.

Neil Kaufman:
They willingly reenter it a second time, knowing what the consequences of their actions are. It may cost them everything but they're so desperate they'll still go ahead and play the game. 87% of them come back, which is really ... it just ... it boggles the mind.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is shocking and it also is shocking how the characters evolve through this process because they're in this bubble and they're not in contact with the real world any more. They're just in this world where they're surrounded by their ... in some cases they try to form teams and this and that but who's on your team can be very confusing. And it's confusing to know who to trust. And that's something that also goes to the theme of money, right, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
It's really interesting. I'll tell you, choosing who's on your team, who's not on your team, I mean, I thought there was a part of the show where they were choosing teams for tug-of-war and nobody, nobody wanted to choose either the women or the old man to be on their team.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, but spoiler, we didn't know it was tug-of-war when they were choosing. They did not know what the game was. There was a presumption that strength mattered.

Neil Kaufman:
There was. There was a presumption.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is also a real world perception very often that the strong men were the most desirable teammates. That was the perception, which is often the perception in real life too.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. And shock, maybe not shock, the team with the three women and the one old man, won the tug-of-war game against the men's ... the all men's team. Not so much for any other reason than it was the wisdom of the old man. He had life experience. He had some knowledge that he brought to the table.

Neil Kaufman:
And there was also the women in terms of how they all worked together as one cohesive team. So it was the mind that won over the power of many on the other side. It was a David and Goliath story and I love that but the point is, you've got to think broadly, have a different perspective. It's not always the obvious answer that wins.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing that's also interesting is that there might be a perception that everyone in this dorm, everyone playing this game was poor, maybe because they were born that way or just things beyond their control. But one of the characters that you found most interesting was character 218.

Bobbi Rebell:
He is someone that was the pride and joy of his neighborhood. We see scenes of his mother bragging about how successful he is. The main character knew him as a child and he was the big success of the neighborhood. He was working in finance but in fact, he had lost his investor's money and he still was in the outside world portraying this veneer of huge success. Nobody knew that he had had this huge financial ruin.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's something that really resonated because very often people appear to have so much money and so much success in life but underneath there's nothing and sometimes there's less than nothing. And it's not always clear but there's a lot of reason to believe that this very wealthy appearing guy had maybe committed some crimes and really betrayed his investors. He was a bad guy.

Neil Kaufman:
I hate that guy. I mean, I got to tell you, even the way it wrapped up with him in the end and I'll get to that in a second. But I think it speaks to, I mean this guy had a pedigree education. He had the pedigree job. I think the lesson in that is don't judge people's wealth or success based on appearance only.

Neil Kaufman:
I guess it almost goes to what we're talking about these days around mental health issues. People that you think are okay, maybe they're not okay. Maybe they're not doing great. It's like that Instagram moment. It looks great from the outside in but the inside out is just terrible.

Neil Kaufman:
I think the life lesson here is the person who said that it's better to look good than to feel good, that person is wrong. The person that said clothes makes the man. That guy is also wrong. It's mental health. It's inner beauty. It's health. It's relationships that matter, not what your neighbors think, not what the valet who parks your car thinks or the stranger who sees on the street wearing whatever you're wearing.

Neil Kaufman:
You need to define a level of success by, I guess I want to say pay it forward. By the good words and things that you do and the impact that you make on others. It's those things that matter.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. This show also makes some big picture statements about the growing gap between the uber wealthy and the poorer people in society and the things that the wealthy do. About two-thirds through the show, the series, we learn that this is a game that wealthy people are staging for their own amusement and it's compared by many people to things like Battle Royale and the Hunger Games.

Bobbi Rebell:
You have a lot to say about this. I mean, they come in, it's wealthy people really abusing the lower classes here who have financial problems instead of helping them. It's very cynical.

Neil Kaufman:
It's interesting. So wealthy people can abuse the vulnerable who have financial problems. No shocker there. I guess it's the theme for the decade. People hurting people who are already hurting, instead of lifting those people up in reality as opposed to the appearance of reality.

Neil Kaufman:
In the end what I liked was I think the last lesson of the show was that humanity wins. It's best to be your best. It's the best lesson so far in the show, which is sometimes people in power, people who seem to be doing good are not always doing good.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's also interesting though, it makes a little ... well, a big statement. The main character early in the show is betting on horses. Later in the show the wealthy VIPs are betting on the contestants in this game. Is it saying maybe that are the wealthy and the poor doing the same human behavior? Is it just our human instinct to do this kind of cruel game?

Bobbi Rebell:
Obviously, the horses, I sure hope are alive afterwards, unlike the people but they're setting them up similar because the VIPs are very much gambling on the humans in this game. They are making bets and they're enjoying it and it seems like there's some parallels that the filmmaker or the series maker is trying to make there.

Neil Kaufman:
They're talking about objectification of both men, of women. They're talking about the abuse of power. I mean, it's a real statement that they're making here in terms of who's good, who's bad and sometimes who's good and who's bad is just a matter of perception.

Neil Kaufman:
So to your point, people betting on humans versus people betting on horses, is there a differentiation between them? I don't know but there's so many lessons in this story. I don't even know where ... there's so much. I read so much online about it and what I thought was interesting is how characters changed in the story too.

Neil Kaufman:
Like 67, I forget what her name is. I'm just going to refer to the characters by their numbers. It's easier. But 67, she started off as a hard character. She became a soft character in the end. It gives me pause to think about how people fall into two categories sometimes.

Neil Kaufman:
When people are put to pressure some people are like bits of carbon. You know what I mean by that? You put enough pressure on somebody and some people, like a bit of carbon, you put enough pressure on them and they turn into a diamond. They really shine like 67. She was playing marbles and her opponent gave up her life for her, which I thought was a selfless act.

Neil Kaufman:
It was amazing. She literally sacrificed her and not only was that an amazing act of selflessness but it rubbed off on 67. That's what I'm saying with that whole pay it forward thing. She became a better person for it and she did pay it forward, by the way, because in the middle of the night when she was hurting and there was an opportunity for 456 to kill 218 in his sleep, she paid it forward and she course corrected 456.

Neil Kaufman:
She brought him back on the tracks. She gave him ethics, gave him values again, which I thought was amazing as opposed to the character 218. So my whole other viewpoint is some people are like bits of carbon that you can turn into diamonds and some people fracture and crack under pressure.

Neil Kaufman:
This guy, 218, I was really disappointed in this guy. He manipulated Ali, number 199, played upon his naivete, tricking him into losing his life. He also betrayed all of the players in the beginning when he basically he knew the game, the honeycomb game, and he wouldn't share his knowledge with anybody else. He just looked out for himself only and I get it.

Neil Kaufman:
It's a game to the death but it was to the point where this person fractured so much from the pressure that not only did he betray all of his friends and then betray Ali and then he betrayed everybody at some point in the games. And he even slit 67's neck in the sleep. She was already dying and he killed her. What's the point in that?

Neil Kaufman:
In the end, his self-sacrifice, I got to tell you, it left me hollow inside. Hollow gesture from a dying man and he didn't even do it to give to 456 to win. He did it to give because he wanted the money for his own purpose, which was to share it with his family. So I get it but I'm telling you, it's a whole microscope of life on the two different types of people there, those that are good and those that are evil.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think the lasting image, because we need to wrap up in a minute. The lasting image for me is the final character, which is throughout the show, the series, they have this giant piggy bank hanging above the dorm that every time someone else dies the remaining players see more money coming in to this giant glass piggy bank above them.

Bobbi Rebell:
So it's like they're being driven by this character of this piggy bank that they can never stop thinking about it and how that will solve their problems, make their life better but in the end, as we know, it doesn't. It really doesn't and that's, I guess, the final spoiler, really. That the money doesn't change anything for the winner.

Neil Kaufman:
I got to tell you, there was one theme in there that really resonated with me on a personal level because I have seen this person in every company I've ever worked with. Betrayal doesn't come from people more often than it comes from people that you trust most. Sometimes your friends are really frenemies. I love that word, frenemy because you got to find out who your frenemies are sometimes.

Neil Kaufman:
Fake friends like Deok-su, number 101 and Han Mi, number 212. They were friends. They were friends but when 101 left 212 scorned by not picking her for ... we talked about the tug-of-war, didn't pick her. He didn't realize that 212 would ultimately be the death of him. So he burned bridges with her and she wound up throwing him off the bridge, which is kind of funny. It took him to his death.

Neil Kaufman:
So my lesson out of that was the kindness you show to others will always find a way of coming back to you or maybe karma is going to sting you for being ruthless in the end and that's what happened to 101.

Bobbi Rebell:
So on point, Neil. You're brilliant, what can I say. All right. Final thoughts.

Neil Kaufman:
I'm thinking that there's going to be a second season, the way they left it at the end there. He didn't get on the plane, 456 did not get on the plane to visit his daughter. He let me down again. He turned around and I think it's a hat tip to a potential season two.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think so too. I mean, the rumor is and we're just laying down all these spoilers here but the rumor is that a season two might focus more on the VIPs and the police and the people behind the game and what's going on behind the scenes because they show us a little bit but I definitely want to know more about how this came about and what's going on.

Bobbi Rebell:
And we've got the brother, the police officer and that whole thing. So I would love to hear more about that and I'd love to see more about what ... I'm going to research more about what's been going on in terms of class divide in South Korea. I think that's really interesting and something we can talk about in our own country as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
So final, final words, Neil.

Neil Kaufman:
Tune into the podcast. Listen on Spotify. Tell us what you liked, what you didn't like. I'd love to hear from you.

Bobbi Rebell:
We love that. All right. And everyone, you can follow me and support the show on Instagram @bobbirebell1, on Twitter @bobbirebell. Let us know what you thought about it. Let us know if you want to hear more from Neil and more of our money related content reviews. I don't know what we want to call it, a synopsis, whatever. But be in touch and thank you for being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips For Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcast. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

Neil Kaufman:
(Singing)

The winners are in! Fall is a great time to sink into a good book and we have the ultimate list including Machiavelli for Women by Stacey Vanek Smith,The Long Game by Dorie Clark, A Year of Self Care Journal by Allison Task, Wallet Activism by Tanya Hester and Estate Planning 101 by Amy Blacklock and Vicki Cook. 

Grownup Reading List Winners for Fall 2021

Book #1

Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition and Win the Worldplace by Stacey Vanek Smith

- Listen to Stacey Vanek Smith’s Money Tips for Financial Grownups episode -

Book #2

The Long Game: How to Be a Long-Term Thinker in a Short-Term World by Dorie Clark

- Listen to Dorie Clark’s Money Tips for Financial Grownups episode -

Book #3

A Year of Self Care Journal: 52 Weeks to Cultivate Positivity and Joy by Allison Task

- Listen to Allison Task’s Money Tips for Financial Grownups episode -

Book #4

Estate Planning 101: A Crash Course for Planning for the Unexpected by Vicki Cook and Amy Blacklock

- Listen to Vicki Cook and Amy Blacklock’s Money Tips for Financial Grownups episode -

Book #5

Wallet Activism: How to Use Every Dollar You Spend, Earn and Save As a Force for Change by Tanja Hester

- Listen to Tanja Hester’s Money Tips for Financial Grownups episode -

---

Follow The Authors!

• Stacey Vanek Smith

• Dorie Clark

• Allison Task

• Vicki Cook and Amy Blacklock

• Tanja Hester

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. I hope everyone is enjoying the start to fall, hopefully, getting out there a little bit, seeing friends and family in person. Maybe you're going back to the office, maybe, if you're a parent, just maybe your kids are back to school in person. And most importantly, I hope everyone out there is healthy. So important. And we have such an appreciation for that these days, of course. There's a lot going on, and that makes it even more important to take a break and maybe take the time to read a book. I always love fall for reading because it's such a cozy season. And I hope there's always a little bit of us that wants to just take a break, and hit pause, and sink into a really good book.

Bobbi Rebell:
I have selected five that I think are well worth investing your time. So let's get right into it. The first two books I was really drawn to kind of for similar reasons, even though they're very different books, they both offer advice that goes against what we usually hear. And it may take some time to process the advice and the strategies that you will read in these books because they're really counterintuitive, but that's what makes them so compelling. And here's the thing, they work.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So let me reveal the first pick. The first pick is Machiavelli for Women. Now, this is sort of the biggest, most ambitious book on the list in terms of reading it. They're all ambitious books, of course. So I recommend starting with it first, and really settling into it for a couple of weeks, and reading it in a place that you can really focus because it deserves your focus, for lack of a better expression for that.

Bobbi Rebell:
So the full title of the book is Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win the Workplace. And I do want to stress that even though clearly by the title, it is aimed at women, everyone who reads this, whatever your gender, will get a lot out of this book. The author, you've probably heard of the author, her name is Stacey Vanek Smith. You've heard of her because she's an incredible journalist and host of The indicator by Planet Money. The book, very high concept. So what Stacey Vanek Smith does is she applies the concepts from Machiavelli's, The Prince, to women and the workplace. The book is incredibly well-researched. You know you can just really tell when the author went the extra mile. Trust me, she went the extra mile.

Bobbi Rebell:
Vanek Smith also took a lot of risks by saying, "Okay, here's the advice you have been given that sounds like the right thing to say, it's the PC thing to do, right? It's the kind of things we all hear like, 'Go, you can be a girl boss. You can hustle your way to success, and it's all going to work. Just go, go, go, go, go girl.'" The thing is, she did the research and there's a lot of documented evidence that a lot of that classic go-girl advice, girl-boss advice, whatever you want to call it, is not working, at least for most people. It's the thing that no one wants to tell you. She will tell you the truth, which is as much as we don't want to admit it, we have a better shot to get what we want if we do certain things that she outlines in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
And in case you're thinking, "Well, things always work for her," Stacey Vanek Smith, I should say, "but not for me," Stacey gets very specific about the things that did not work out for her. And as a fellow journalist, I was in shock, blown away, not only by her honesty, but by the experiences that she had. Because it's one of those, "Oh, I thought it was just me," and, "She's so successful. It must have always been smooth sailing." Well, she totally smashes that myth and she's really vulnerable. I really encourage everyone to read Machiavelli for Women by Stacey Vanek Smith. And by the way, if you read it, and with all of these books, if you enjoy it, go and write a review as well. Amazon is a great place to write a review. You can also go to Goodreads and probably lots of other sites as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
The second book, also a lot of counterintuitive advice that really works, even though it's kind of not supposed to, it's not what people think you should do, but it is what it is. Book number two is The Long Game: How to Be a Long-Term Thinker in a Short-Term World. It is by Dorie Clark. She's a professor at Duke and Columbia. She's also written a number of other books. She's a very popular speaker. She's got a lot going on at LinkedIn with a big series there. So this one, I read it by the pool in August. And I tell you that because this is a book that is a real stress reliever. It takes the pressure off that hustle mentality. So it is the closest to a beach read you can get in that sense from a career book, but it's definitely, obviously not a beach read and I highly recommend it for fall. In fact, it just came out in the fall a couple of weeks ago.

Bobbi Rebell:
Author Dorie Clark, just like Stacey Vanek Smith, gets very candid about her own failures. I mean, they're just flat-out failures. Sometimes there's no like, "Oh, but then the next year, they hired her and she made bazillions of dollars." No. Some of the failures that she talks about are just that. It shows us that even people that we perceive as being at the top of their field, and they are at the top of their field, I should say, they have their setbacks, even when they are at the top of their fields, as we see it. They may not always see it that way. And also like Smith, Clark offers advice that people just don't like to say out loud. Dorie Clark also has some super easy productivity tips that I've already put to work. They're so easy, makes so much sense. So if you're feeling like there's just too much on your plate, take a moment, hit pause, pick up this book, and just read a chapter at a time. You can definitely take your time and go back and dip into this book back and forth throughout the fall.

Bobbi Rebell:
On the theme of The Long Game, I have tried to do the journaling thing so many times. Every January, I am sent wonderful and beautiful journals by people that write these and maybe want to come on the show, some I've had on the show, and they're awesome. And I love it that it works for so many people. But here's the thing, those blank pages just kill me. The wonderful Allison Task has solved the problem with her book A Year of Self-Care Journal: 52 Weeks to Cultivate Positivity & Joy. So consider this an early holiday present for you, maybe for your friends who need some structure and routine. There are quotes to inspire us and they're not the same old, same old ones. And for someone like me, I just got started and the first week is about laughter. And that sounds like, "Oh yeah, the book's just going to make me laugh." No. It had really good things that we could do to laugh and also just to appreciate how ridiculous things are. So it's kind of weird. It actually works even for skeptics like me.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also as a parent, although frankly, everyone is busy, so let's just say as someone with a lot of stuff to do, it has specific tasks throughout the year. So for example, at one point, Allison tells us like, "This week, this week, for sure, check it off your list, that you're going to make appointments with these three crucial doctors that you have to do yearly check-ins with." So it's really important because we're sometimes so busy caring for other people that we forget to do those kinds of things for ourselves. So don't wait until January 1st to get on track. It's 52 weeks. So the week one can be any week. It doesn't have to be the first week of the year.

Bobbi Rebell:
And yes, I have roped Allison Task into coming back on the podcast soon to talk about A Year of Self-Care Journal. So you can hear more from her as well. It'll be coming up probably in a couple of weeks. She, by the way, Allison, has had quite the journey over COVID, a lot of personal drama that I am going to ask her about because I know she is so good at sharing the experiences that she and her family have so that we can also learn from those real-life examples. And she's just a great role model. So make sure you are subscribed so you can get that episode when it comes out.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We are moving up to book number four. Fall is back to school. So even if you're not officially in school, I do have an assignment for you, my Grownup friends. I want you to get your important paperwork in order. No eye-rolling here. I want everyone, no matter how young, no matter how poor you think you are or how early you think you are on your financial journey, I want you to get your estate planning in order. And estate planning is a really unfortunate phrase because the truth is, it's just having your financial act together, and also in this case, kind of your health act together.

Bobbi Rebell:
Because even though we think that estate planning is for really rich people or really old people, the truth is that if you don't have things like advanced care directives in place, which basically means who's in charge of making decisions about your health if you're not able to do it? And who's in charge of your money? Even something as simple as making sure your bills get paid so that all of your financial stuff doesn't come crashing down when you do get better. Someone has to be designated to do that stuff. And so if you don't do that, it's going to be really, really bad. Total chaos. Okay. So the book, the book you guys need to get for this is called Estate Planning 101, a crash course for planning for the unexpected. Estate Planning 101, can't get any easier. The authors are Vicki Cook and Amy Blacklock. Get it stat. Do the things. This lecture is over.

Bobbi Rebell:
Rounding out our list of Grownup books for fall is a book that I have been looking forward to and was able to get an early copy of. It's not actually out yet, but it will be in a couple of weeks. So you guys can already pre-order it, it is called Wallet Activism: How to Use Every Dollar You Spend, Earn and Save as a Force for Change. It is by Tanja Hester. She's been on the podcast before to talk about her previous book about early retirement. That one was called Work Optional.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hester doesn't make us feel bad in this book. If we're being honest, we all probably do things with our money that isn't for social good, not at all. She actually gives us the tools to make changes on our own terms and to really understand the power that we have as consumers. It's called Wallet Activism, and it is really worth reading and supporting, and I hope everyone will get a lot out of it. So pre-order Wallet Activism. And by the time it comes, you'll be done with the other four books and you will be ready to read that book. And also by the way, Tanja will be back on the podcast when the book comes out in early November.

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys check out all of these books the authors either have or soon will be on the podcast. We will link to those episodes in the show notes, and you can get the show notes and full transcripts of all the shows on my website, bobbirebell.com, B-O-B-B-I R-E-B-E-L-L.com. Just go to the podcast tab and you will see it. Super easy. I want to get back to doing more book episodes. So DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 with books that you are reading or books that you're looking forward to reading that you think would be great to share with the Grownup community. And thanks to all of you for your support and for being Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a Financial Grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being Financial Grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Michele Cagan, author of The Financial Recovery Workbook and a CPA joins us to share strategies to recover from life’s inevitable financial setbacks

4 Money Tips to Recover from a Financial Crisis

1. Understand your emotional relationship with money

2. Know your financial facts

3. Don't wait for the perfect plan

4. Don’t follow all the personal finance rules during a crisis

Follow Michele!

• Instagram - @michelecagancpa

• Facebook - @michelecagancpa

• Twitter - @michelecagancpa

• Website - MicheleCaganCPA.com

• Michele’s Book - The Financial Recovery Workbook

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code grownup for 15% off, your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Michele Cagan:
If you are at the beginning of a crisis and you know it's going to last, the problems, the financial ones are going to last for a while, you should borrow money as soon as you can, because by the time you need to borrow that money, your credit is going to be shot, and you're not going to be in as good a position to borrow it.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of how to be a financial grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being thrown up is hard, but together we've got this. Hey, grownup friends. This is the episode I wish I had done back in March of 2020 because we're going to be talking about how to recover from my financial crisis. And boy yeah, we needed that when the world shut down back then, but we have it now. Better, late than never, right? Michele Cagan is a CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook, which is a step-by-step plan for what to do when we are hit by a financial crisis. As we go through our adult lives, many of us and those we care about, will get hit with something. It could be a massive unexpected medical bill, divorces, job losses, or just bad luck that hits us financially.

Bobbi Rebell:
What I loved about my interview with Michele, is that not only were we able to discuss very specific ways to deal with a financial crisis, she was also pretty bold about breaking the rules of what we expect experts to tell people to do. She also reveals her own unexpected financial crisis and shares her personal experience, which I really appreciated because just because you're a money expert doesn't mean it can't happen to you. We're all vulnerable at some point in our lives, often at a lot of points. Here is Michele Cagan, CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook. Michelle Cagan. You're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Michele Cagan:
Hi Bobbi, thank you so much for having me on.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm excited to have you on to talk about your latest book, which is also your 12th book. It is called The Financial Recovery Workbook. Now you brought with you specific action items, but before we get to them, what inspired this book? Was there a certain aha moment that said, now is the time after 11 other books?

Michele Cagan:
Well, I've actually had some big financial setbacks in the past few years related to health issues in my family. I was struggling to recover from some of those. And I thought I'm a financial professional and if I'm having a hard time dealing with all these financial pieces, I can't even imagine someone who's uncomfortable or isn't an expert in finance is going to do. So I put together some of the stuff I used with my clients and some of the stuff I used myself. And I thought, let me put this all together in a book that can help people get through things in a way that's manageable step-by-step and will be sustainable so that they can use the skills that they're learning forever in their money journey.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I love the tone of the book because and people can hear it in your voice right now that there's an empathy because so often we vilify people for being in financial crisis. When very often, the things that happen, happen to them, like COVID, for example, that were not in their control that, well, of course you can plan for a rainy day, as they say, and have an emergency fund. Life happens, right?

Michele Cagan:
Absolutely. Most people's emergency funds. Unfortunately aren't big enough to weather a true crisis.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And so many things we can't possibly predict. Let's get into your fourth things, your solutions really, that can help us in financial crisis. The first one is actually really the most important I would say, because it's really about taking a step back and assessing things.

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. The very first thing that is helpful to do is to acknowledge, understand, and welcome your existing emotional relationship with money, especially during a crisis. A crisis situation could be something like a divorce or a job loss. They all come with their own huge set of anxiety, fear, self-blame, shame. And it's really hard to separate the emotions from financial tasks and that can leave you completely stuck or make it impossible to move forward. So even if you can't overcome or get rid of emotions, which I'm not suggesting that you do, acknowledge that they're there, pay attention to them, and realize that sometimes when you feel like you can't do something, it's one of your emotions kicking in. And once you face that it can help you take the next step.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Especially during a crisis, our emotions can be our worst enemy or our best assets. So, that's the first thing, is to really understand our emotional relationship with money. The second thing you want to talk about is knowing the financial facts so that we can have the best foundation for moving forward. Tell us more about that.

Michele Cagan:
Even not during a crisis, millions of people have anxiety around money and finances and they don't look at it. They don't want to see it. They don't want to look at their bank accounts or their credit card statements, but when you're in a crisis, it's even more important to know what resources you have. You need to know, how much money I have, where can I get more money from? How much space do I have on my credit cards? How much equity do I have in my house? You need to know what your available resources are, so that you can use them in the most effective way and not run out.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that really holds people back though, is that they don't want to make the wrong move. And not only that, they want to make the perfect decision. That's your third thing to talk about, right?

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. That's a really big sticking point. And that honestly happens to me sometimes too. It causes a decision paralysis because you feel like if I do the wrong thing, X, Y, and Z are going to happen. If I do this wrong thing, I'm going to lose my house. And especially when you're emotional, the consequences that you attach to any specific move can spiral and get even bigger. I'm going to end up homeless. My kid won't have dinner tonight kind of stuff. So making a plan, even if it's not a perfect plan, especially if it's not a perfect plan, anything that will help you take a step, one step at a time, because you can always change your plan. Even after you put it into place, if it's not working, you can change it. But if you don't start with a plan and start making moves, everything is just going to get worse.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what advice would you have for people who can't get over that hurdle? Can you give us maybe a real life example of someone that waited and can't make that next move because they're waiting for it to be perfect?

Michele Cagan:
Oh yeah, absolutely. So I was actually dealing with some really high medical bills and I don't know if you've had this experience, but when a child goes into the hospital, they don't tell you how much you're going to have to pay. It could be $200. It could be $20,000. You can't plan for it. You don't know what it's going to be until after all the bills come in. So I had an experience like that and I thought, it's going to be $3,000. And I planned on that and it ended up being a lot more than that because it didn't turn out the way I expected. And it was so different than what I expected.

Michele Cagan:
I went a little bit into anxiety mode where I was like, okay, I need to figure out exactly how I'm going to pay all of this off, where I'm going to get the money from. And I went through circles and circles and circles of the planing until finally I just said, okay, stop circling, make some phone calls, do one step at a time. Call and see if you can do a payment plan, see where you can move some money around and start taking steps instead of just thinking about the plan spiraling and it made a difference.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's the thing. We're talking about true financial crisis. These are not things that can be instantly solved in wrap it up with a bow and move on with your life. Sometimes there's going to be multiple and longterm steps to get out of it, right?

Michele Cagan:
Absolutely. And most people, in the immediate crisis, there are costs involved with that. But most of the kinds of crises that people face, again, job loss, health problems, a natural disaster, they have ongoing costs. If you have a health problem, you might need medicine or extra treatment or doctor visits for six months or five years. It's not just a one and done thing. With a divorce, you have to set up a whole new household. Your childcare is different. You need health insurance in a different way. So many things change and there are so many moving parts that you really need to work not just small picture, but big picture, but you still have to start with the next step.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said. The fourth one is something that people don't like to say, but I think it's genius. You say that during a crisis, the normal personal finance rules don't apply. So don't follow them. Everyone's always saying follow the things that we know. If you have debt, these are the different things that you can do to pay down the debt. You can use the snowball method. You can use the avalanche method. And this is not just applying to debt. When you say it's okay to break the rules in the crisis, what does that mean? And give us some examples.

Michele Cagan:
So, if somebody's having money a tight finance ... Something came up, they really need more space in their financial. The first thing I tell them to do is stop making retirement plan contributions. Just stop.

Bobbi Rebell:
Really?

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. If you're able to make it up later, that's fine. But if you're choosing between keeping your electricity on or making your mortgage payment and putting money in your retirement account, skip the retirement account for now. I also tell people that, for example, if you are at the beginning of a crisis and you know it's going to last the problems, the financial problems are going to last for a while, you should borrow money as soon as you can because by the time you need to borrow that money, your credit is going to be shot and you're not going to be in as good a position to borrow it.

Michele Cagan:
It's the opposite of what I would normally tell anyone to do. But in a crisis situation, you need to expand your available, your currently available resources, as much as possible. Locking money away in a retirement account, that's not a smart choice because if you need to pull it back out, you've got penalties. You've got interest, you've got taxes if nothing else, unless you put it in a Roth IRA, which is a different situation. I'm just talking more about 401k through work. If you need to use credit cards to make your budget, normally I would tell people, if you can't make your budget without using credit cards, you need to change your budget. But in a crisis situation, if you need to use your credit cards to buy your kids medicine, you do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Michele Cagan:
You use all the financial space you have, and then you work on getting everything under control and managing it better. And then, you can recover financially after the crisis is settled down.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us a few more tips before I let you go because this is really interesting. I'm sitting here and I'm really processing what you're saying. And I think a lot of our listeners are as well. This is really, I hate the expression thinking out of the box. It's so tired, but it really applies in this case because everything you're saying in the context of a crisis does make sense. And yet, it is breaking so many rules.

Michele Cagan:
I know. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of financial professionals who hate this book because of that, quite frankly, I think another thing that's really important for people to do is prioritize their expenses in order of survival. So a lot of times in budgeting advice, it's always money into savings first, money into retirement first. And what I'm saying here is, you pay your house, food, electricity, car, before you do anything else. You need to make sure you can get to a job interview, to the doctor. You need food, you need to live in your house.

Michele Cagan:
And yes, maybe you can downsize some of those expenses, but those are your priorities, your immediate survival expenses are what to focus on. Another thing that I tell people they can do is increase your insurance deductible so that you'll have lower premiums because right now, the current cash matters more than anything else. People can maybe not look at their credit scores for a few months, because it's very possible that during a crisis, their utilization is going to go up and it's going to drop their credit score. It doesn't mean they're a bad person. It doesn't mean they're a big risk. It means that right now, they need to use their available resources. And then, when things are back on track, everything else will fall into place.

Bobbi Rebell:
If we know of a friend or relative who's in a financial crisis, what is the best way to help them? Because we get a lot of mixed messages. Of course, we want to be there for friends and family, but we're also told, you can't always afford to just be ... Sometimes you worry about being an enabler, depending on what caused the crisis. You want to be there for them, but maybe you can't afford to give them money and you want to loan them, but you don't know how things are spiraling out of control. What is the best way to be there for people?

Michele Cagan:
I think one of the best ways to be there for people is honestly just to listen and not try to fix things for them. That's something that a lot of people forget to do. They hear somebody talking about a problem and they immediately go into fix mode. But a lot of times, someone just wants to be able to listen without judgment and not have someone else swoop in. Just to acknowledge, hey, that situation really sucks. Maybe I can take your kids for a few hours. Would that be helpful for you? It doesn't always have to be about money. It has to do about care and support.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good point. And I love that idea of helping with other things that don't necessarily cost you money, but maybe you can help them with their money situation. Because if you can maybe take their kids and give them free babysitting, or maybe you give them a ride to work, if they don't have a car at that time, things like that, maybe are ways that you can help people that are going through a financial crisis. This has been wonderful, Michele. Where can people find out more about you and pick up the book?

Michele Cagan:
They can visit my website, which is MicheleCaganCPA.com. And the book, I think is now available pretty much everywhere.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are your social channels?

Michele Cagan:
I'm on Twitter @MicheleCaganCPA, Facebook at Michele Cagan CPA, and Instagram. Guess what? It's Michele Cagan CPA.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you Michele Cagan CPA for joining us. This has been great. I love the book. I know a lot of our listeners are going to get so much value out of this, not just for themselves, but also for the people that they care about. So thank you so much.

Michele Cagan:
Thank you so much for having me on.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's my take friends. It was really refreshing to hear someone be so real about the stuff that we really don't talk about. A quick recap here. Michele reminds us not to let her emotions get the best of us in a crisis and to actually look at the numbers. It's really hard sometimes, but that's really the only way we're going to know exactly what we're dealing with in terms of how big a crisis is. We also can't wait for the perfect plan. We may be choosing from a bad plan versus an even worse plan. And that is why we may need to break some of the rules we have been told well, to never break. Her book, The Financial Recovery Workbook, is just that, a workbook. It has lots of tools and worksheets to actually execute a lot of the money tips that we've shared on this episode. For more on the podcast, make sure you go to my website, bobbirebell.com and just click on the podcast tab where you can get show notes and full transcripts of every show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Finally, if you enjoy this podcast, I could really use your help. Please tell a friend. You can tell more than one friend, and if you have a free moment, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts and also make sure you're following the podcast. Wherever you listen to you automatically get new episodes once a week. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to listen and to Michele Cagan, CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

Grownups need to step up and do some planning for things we don’t want to even think about let alone admit we need to be ready to do. The duo behind Women Who Money join us to share their absolute must-do’s right now-without waiting another minute- from their new book Estate Planning 101.

5 Money Tips for Planning for the Unexpected

1 - Know your net worth 

2 - Speaking of insurance 

3 - Name your beneficiaries 

4 - Protect yourself in case of emergency 

5 - Protect your assets and minor children

Follow Amy + Vicki!

• Instagram - @womenwhomoney

• Facebook - @MoneyTalkForWomen

• Twitter - @WomenWhoMoney

• Website - www.womenwhomoney.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

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Full Transcript:

Marriage Kids and Money’s Andy Hill joins Bobbi to break down the Netflix hit show that challenges couples to choose between the wedding of their dreams, and becoming home owners as they start their life together. 

A Little About The Show

Andy Hill:
So it's a 10 episode series on Netflix, and it follows these couples in Nashville. Then they've got a limited budget. So they've got to choose the mortgage, or they've got to choose the wedding of their dreams. So the mortgage obviously is for their first home or the home that they're going to have together. Most of them have around 30K saved up. And the hosts of the show, as you mentioned, Sarah, she's got the wedding planning, and then Nicole is the real estate agent. So they have a friendly competition about who's going to win over the couple, whether it's the marriage or the mortgage.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, and it's interesting. Most of the couples have somewhere between 25 and $35,000 saved up for this. And that does work out well because the average cost of a wedding pre COVID, which is when this was filmed, and we'll talk about the relevance of that later, was about $34,000. Which of course, I'm in New York so I'm like, oh, that's not so bad. But in the real world, outside of the island of Manhattan, that is a ton of money. All right, Andy, you're the perfect person for this show. You have the marriage, but you don't have a mortgage anymore. So I know you have a lot to say about this show. You've watched a couple episodes, right?

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I watched a couple episodes. I watched the first one where it was a new couple coming in from Florida. And they were deciding whether they want to get married or pay for the wedding or do the house. And then I also watched another episode with an older lesbian couple, that they were going to say, Hey, do we want the big gay wedding, or do we want the big gay house? So it was fun to see different demographics in Nashville trying to figure out their situation. But yeah, overall, I thought it was a very interesting concept. And based on watching it, it was a little downer. Honestly, I feel like you come into it and it's like, okay, you set yourself up for the big hopes of the wedding because you've seen all the movies, or you've seen all your friends do it. Or you've got to get the big house because you've seen all your friends or your family or in the movies do it.

Andy Hill:
And I feel like when we throw that out into society, it's like, here's the things that you have to do, I think that it can be a depressing notion of you're not quite there financially. And it brought back memories for me with both of those situations as well. So I didn't quite have the money for either one of those things. And we got into forcing ourselves financially to do them. So it was kind of a ... I don't know, it's a happy go lucky show, but it made me a little bit sad.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I will say. So there is this reality TV veneer that they sometimes do where everything is presented as positivity. It is interesting because there is that dark undercurrent because they never have a choice of, well, you don't have to do either one.

Andy Hill:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, that's interesting. I joked that you know about the marriage, but not the mortgage anymore. You did pay off your mortgage. What do you think about the idea of what it's saying? That it positions home ownership has this ideal that couples should be striving for. They never really say, well, or you could just, do what you want to do [crosstalk 00:05:49] or whatever.

Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I think there's the nationwide shame around renting. And that's something that I'd like to dispel, especially since ... I'm a homeowner. I love my home and we paid off the mortgage. Yes, it's great. But for my first home ownership experience, I bought with too little down with not an understanding of the general costs of home ownership outside of the mortgage. A lot of these things, a lot of the show is like, Hey, here's the home that you can afford for the mortgage. But then you move in and it's like, I got to furnish that thing. I got to get curtains. Oh, the roof is not in a good situation. I have to ... et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all the things that you didn't know because you are renting, all the things you got to fix because you don't have a landlord anymore. You are the landlord.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's so interesting that you say that because the plot twist for this show actually happened after filming ended in my mind. Because when you first see the title of this show, every single person I've asked, because as I mentioned, I am obsessed with it, has said, who would not choose the house over the wedding? Everyone says, why would you? If you only have 30 grand, of course, you're going to get a house, especially cause some other living situations are less than ideal. They're living with parents or whatever, roommates. The thing is, is that you think when you're watching it, who's not going to choose the mortgage. And I didn't actually do a count, but I'm telling you, I feel like it's at least half chose the wedding.

Andy Hill:
Yeah, it was the majority. Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
And on the surface, people get judgey. And they're like, you would blow 30 grand on four hours? And I asked the ladies, I said, after the pandemic, did people regret the weddings? Especially because some of the weddings were even downsized because they timed out to be the beginning of the pandemic. And they said, no. The regrets, if anything, came from the homeowners, which goes to what you just said. The wedding. Sure, they "blew 30 grand on it." But they had the day of a lifetime. They had a memory, they had their friends and family there, which we talk about how millennials and gen Z, they all want these experiences. Well, that's what the wedding was. The wedding was an experience versus a thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what people forget is that the house does carry future financial responsibilities, positive things too. But it was very interesting talking to the ladies, seeing this afterthought. Do you think that people are too quick to judge stereotypes when they go to these things, where they judge people for spending a lot of money on a huge trip or a wedding or whatever it may be? And we were talking offline. We have a big family event that we're planning that I think we're spending way too much money on, but I also feel like this is what life is, right?

Speaker 3:
Absolutely. If you've saved up the money to purchase something, whether it's a thing or an experience in your life, I think there should be zero shame, and you enjoying what you've worked hard to have. Now, if, Bobby, you're going to take a big, old, personal loan to throw this party and rack up some double-digit interest to do that, then maybe not so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you were the host, let's say you're the moderator, they really didn't have a neutral party. But if you were there hosting it with the ladies, what would your advice to be as a neutral party to these couples?

Speaker 3:
I think that could be fun actually, because the show is supposed to be fun. And it's like, Hey, choose one or the other. And it's like a game show, like you said. It also opens up opportunity for social commentary at the end to be like, okay, Hey, we know that this is not the real world here, everybody. You don't have to do just this or that. There's a lot of other things you can do. I think maybe they should have risen up the conversation around renting. I think they should have risen up the conversation around maybe not having to do an extravagant thing if you can't afford it. And the realities of debt in our country, because those are really serious topics.

Speaker 3:
And since we're playfully talking about a $30,000 choice, which is very difficult for the majority of America, I think it opens up an opportunity to have real conversations. So maybe for the people who are on the show, maybe it's an opportunity for them to talk, get real, get real money talk and say, Hey, this is what it actually ended up being when we decided to go for the wedding. Or now that we've decided to go for the wedding, we have $0 to put down on this house that we're actually really interested. So there is a choice. And I think that it opens up an opportunity for education after the fun, which is important too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. Final thoughts on the show. Are you going to be watching the rest of the episodes now that I've gotten you sucked into it?

Speaker 3:
You know what, Bobby? I'll be honest with you. I will probably not watch any more of them, but I really appreciated you opening it up to me. It's just that's not typically my type of show. I don't really watch a lot of reality TV, but I liked the fact that it hit on both of those buttons, marriage and mortgage because I talk about that all the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, do you feel that it had lessons, maybe things that you already know? I mean, there was a lot of negotiation. I feel there was a lot of priority there. And I would have liked to have heard more about how they got to saving $30,000, which is no small feat.

Speaker 3:
Exactly. And I think that that in itself could teach a lot of people things. What I did like that you're bringing up, I like how they negotiated. I really like how when you come to the end and they make the final decision, here's what I was able to do for you, whether it was for the house or for the wedding venue. I used to work on event planning for 15 years, so I know all of the importance of the costs of events.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, tell us. Give us some insider secrets, Andy.

Speaker 3:
It's very important to not just take the price at face value, which the show hosts did, which was fantastic. What can you do for me? Where can we find some concessions? These people are considering going over these other locations. What can we do to save a little bit of money? Never take the price at face value in anything in life. This is an opportunity for you to negotiate, flex that skill, and go into it being like, Hey, you know what? If we can't get it, it's not going to be the end of the world. There's going to be somewhere else to go. And with that attitude, you're going to save a lot of money with a lot of choices in life, whether it's an event venue or a home or a thing that you want to buy in life. So that was one of my favorite things that the host did and showed the power of negotiation, which I think is really good for everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they did do some budgeting. They did say, for example, the wedding, if you spend this much on the dress ... I mean, there was a lot of humor in there. To me, that's a lot of the watchability. You can see, everyone, I'm trying to get Andy to really watch the rest of these. But I mean, there was a woman that had to have this ranch dressing tower. I mean, it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard, but it was also her enthusiasm was infectious. So you find these characters endearing, even in what we might perceive as silliness. The truth is we all have our thing.

Speaker 3:
Yeah. Well, I like ranch on anything, so I respect that. So pizza, vegetables. So maybe I'll have to watch that episode. I think that's that ...

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe watch that one, and the one with a donut wall.

Speaker 3:
Oh, I like it. I like donuts, and I like ranch. Not together, but I like them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, see? I'm going to win you over. When we're done with this, I'm going to work on getting Andy to watch the rest of the show because these characters are endearing. You are rooting for them. The fact that this pandemic happened and squashed a lot of the ones ... the wedding's dreams, but they still love the weddings. It's like, I love that because the weddings, ultimately, even though they did ... and they put budgets up on the screen, by the way. They do, they show what things are going to cost. They do push people to make choices within the wedding. More so the house, it's a little trickier, but they do do that. So I thought that was also a good financial lesson. So I'm winning you over, Andy.

Speaker 3:
I like it. I'm not knocking your show. I don't normally do reality shows, but [crosstalk 00:12:58] you're a good friend of mine. If you want me to watch an another episode, I will.

Bobbi Rebell:
I recommend it for people that like reality TV.

Check out Sarah and Nichole’s episode here!

Follow Andy!

• Instagram - @andyhillmkm

• Twitter - @andyhillmkm

• Facebook - @andyhillMKM

• YouTube - @MarriageKidsandMoney

• Pinterest - @andyhillmkm

• Website - MarriageKidsandMoney.com
  
  

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over@grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, friends, to our latest installment of our 2021 financial grownup summer watch party series. During COVID, I had a chance to check out some streaming shows and there are a lot of undiscovered gems out there that I think have some really good money lessons. So we're going to have a separate watch party. Actually, we already are. I think this is our third episode highlighting, of course, some of my personal favorites and some new buzzworthy shows. And of course the money tips that we learned from them. And of course, what is a watch party without some good friends? So I am so excited to welcome Andy Hill. He is the host of Marriage, Kids and Money, the podcast, and the growing business empire around it. Welcome, Andy.

Andy Hill:
Thank you, Bobby. I'm so glad to be here and glad to be returning for some more fun with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You have a lot going on as the world opens up, I say optimistically.

Andy Hill:
Yes. Let's keep saying it optimistically, please.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes. Well, I think you're one of the co-hosts of Fin Con this year.

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I'm excited about that. Yeah. Paula Pant and I are going to be co-hosting together in Fin Con in Austin, Texas. And I am pumped about it, to be able to not only do that, but hang out with a bunch of fellow money nerds just like you.

Bobbi Rebell:
In person, so cool. All right.

Andy Hill:
Yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get to this week's show. We're going to be talking about Marriage and Mortgage. I think it's actually called Marriage or Mortgage. I misspoke, so Marriage or Mortgage. It was an obsessive pandemic binge show for me, so much so that I had the stars of the show, Sarah Miller and Nicole Holmes, as guests on an earlier episode of this podcast. And yes, we'll leave a link in the show notes on my website, bobbirebell.com. So you guys can check that one out. I was obsessed. Andy, I had to prompt you to watch this, but you were a good sport. You dove right in. Tell us a little bit about the show.

Andy Hill:
Yeah, so it's a very interesting ... and you were right. It's definitely an or because that's the whole point of the show, right? Marriage or Mortgage. So it's a 10 episode series on Netflix, and it follows these couples in Nashville. Then they've got a limited budget. So they've got to choose the mortgage, or they've got to choose the wedding of their dreams. So the mortgage obviously is for their first home or the home that they're going to have together. Most of them have around 30K saved up. And the hosts of the show, as you mentioned, Sarah, she's got the wedding planning, and then Nicole is the real estate agent. So they have a friendly competition about who's going to win over the couple, whether it's the marriage or the mortgage.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, and it's interesting. Most of the couples have somewhere between 25 and $35,000 saved up for this. And that does work out well because the average cost of a wedding pre COVID, which is when this was filmed, and we'll talk about the relevance of that later, was about $34,000. Which of course, I'm in New York so I'm like, oh, that's not so bad. But in the real world, outside of the island of Manhattan, that is a ton of money. All right, Andy, you're the perfect person for this show. You have the marriage, but you don't have a mortgage anymore. So I know you have a lot to say about this show. You've watched a couple episodes, right?

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I watched a couple episodes. I watched the first one where it was a new couple coming in from Florida. And they were deciding whether they want to get married or pay for the wedding or do the house. And then I also watched another episode with an older lesbian couple, that they were going to say, Hey, do we want the big gay wedding, or do we want the big gay house? So it was fun to see different demographics in Nashville trying to figure out their situation. But yeah, overall, I thought it was a very interesting concept. And based on watching it, it was a little downer. Honestly, I feel like you come into it and it's like, okay, you set yourself up for the big hopes of the wedding because you've seen all the movies, or you've seen all your friends do it. Or you've got to get the big house because you've seen all your friends or your family or in the movies do it.

Andy Hill:
And I feel like when we throw that out into society, it's like, here's the things that you have to do, I think that it can be a depressing notion of you're not quite there financially. And it brought back memories for me with both of those situations as well. So I didn't quite have the money for either one of those things. And we got into forcing ourselves financially to do them. So it was kind of a ... I don't know, it's a happy go lucky show, but it made me a little bit sad.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I will say. So there is this reality TV veneer that they sometimes do where everything is presented as positivity. It is interesting because there is that dark undercurrent because they never have a choice of, well, you don't have to do either one.

Andy Hill:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, that's interesting. I joked that you know about the marriage, but not the mortgage anymore. You did pay off your mortgage. What do you think about the idea of what it's saying? That it positions home ownership has this ideal that couples should be striving for. They never really say, well, or you could just, do what you want to do [crosstalk 00:05:49] or whatever.

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I think there's the nationwide shame around renting. And that's something that I'd like to dispel, especially since ... I'm a homeowner. I love my home and we paid off the mortgage. Yes, it's great. But for my first home ownership experience, I bought with too little down with not an understanding of the general costs of home ownership outside of the mortgage. A lot of these things, a lot of the show is like, Hey, here's the home that you can afford for the mortgage. But then you move in and it's like, I got to furnish that thing. I got to get curtains. Oh, the roof is not in a good situation. I have to ... et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all the things that you didn't know because you are renting, all the things you got to fix because you don't have a landlord anymore. You are the landlord.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's so interesting that you say that because the plot twist for this show actually happened after filming ended in my mind. Because when you first see the title of this show, every single person I've asked, because as I mentioned, I am obsessed with it, has said, who would not choose the house over the wedding? Everyone says, why would you? If you only have 30 grand, of course, you're going to get a house, especially cause some other living situations are less than ideal. They're living with parents or whatever, roommates. The thing is, is that you think when you're watching it, who's not going to choose the mortgage. And I didn't actually do a count, but I'm telling you, I feel like it's at least half chose the wedding.

Andy Hill:
Yeah, it was the majority. Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
And on the surface, people get judgey. And they're like, you would blow 30 grand on four hours? And I asked the ladies, I said, after the pandemic, did people regret the weddings? Especially because some of the weddings were even downsized because they timed out to be the beginning of the pandemic. And they said, no. The regrets, if anything, came from the homeowners, which goes to what you just said. The wedding. Sure, they "blew 30 grand on it." But they had the day of a lifetime. They had a memory, they had their friends and family there, which we talk about how millennials and gen Z, they all want these experiences. Well, that's what the wedding was. The wedding was an experience versus a thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what people forget is that the house does carry future financial responsibilities, positive things too. But it was very interesting talking to the ladies, seeing this afterthought. Do you think that people are too quick to judge stereotypes when they go to these things, where they judge people for spending a lot of money on a huge trip or a wedding or whatever it may be? And we were talking offline. We have a big family event that we're planning that I think we're spending way too much money on, but I also feel like this is what life is, right?

Speaker 3:
Absolutely. If you've saved up the money to purchase something, whether it's a thing or an experience in your life, I think there should be zero shame, and you enjoying what you've worked hard to have. Now, if, Bobby, you're going to take a big, old, personal loan to throw this party and rack up some double-digit interest to do that, then maybe not so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you were the host, let's say you're the moderator, they really didn't have a neutral party. But if you were there hosting it with the ladies, what would your advice to be as a neutral party to these couples?

Speaker 3:
I think that could be fun actually, because the show is supposed to be fun. And it's like, Hey, choose one or the other. And it's like a game show, like you said. It also opens up opportunity for social commentary at the end to be like, okay, Hey, we know that this is not the real world here, everybody. You don't have to do just this or that. There's a lot of other things you can do. I think maybe they should have risen up the conversation around renting. I think they should have risen up the conversation around maybe not having to do an extravagant thing if you can't afford it. And the realities of debt in our country, because those are really serious topics.

Speaker 3:
And since we're playfully talking about a $30,000 choice, which is very difficult for the majority of America, I think it opens up an opportunity to have real conversations. So maybe for the people who are on the show, maybe it's an opportunity for them to talk, get real, get real money talk and say, Hey, this is what it actually ended up being when we decided to go for the wedding. Or now that we've decided to go for the wedding, we have $0 to put down on this house that we're actually really interested. So there is a choice. And I think that it opens up an opportunity for education after the fun, which is important too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. Final thoughts on the show. Are you going to be watching the rest of the episodes now that I've gotten you sucked into it?

Speaker 3:
You know what, Bobby? I'll be honest with you. I will probably not watch any more of them, but I really appreciated you opening it up to me. It's just that's not typically my type of show. I don't really watch a lot of reality TV, but I liked the fact that it hit on both of those buttons, marriage and mortgage because I talk about that all the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, do you feel that it had lessons, maybe things that you already know? I mean, there was a lot of negotiation. I feel there was a lot of priority there. And I would have liked to have heard more about how they got to saving $30,000, which is no small feat.

Speaker 3:
Exactly. And I think that that in itself could teach a lot of people things. What I did like that you're bringing up, I like how they negotiated. I really like how when you come to the end and they make the final decision, here's what I was able to do for you, whether it was for the house or for the wedding venue. I used to work on event planning for 15 years, so I know all of the importance of the costs of events.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, tell us. Give us some insider secrets, Andy.

Speaker 3:
It's very important to not just take the price at face value, which the show hosts did, which was fantastic. What can you do for me? Where can we find some concessions? These people are considering going over these other locations. What can we do to save a little bit of money? Never take the price at face value in anything in life. This is an opportunity for you to negotiate, flex that skill, and go into it being like, Hey, you know what? If we can't get it, it's not going to be the end of the world. There's going to be somewhere else to go. And with that attitude, you're going to save a lot of money with a lot of choices in life, whether it's an event venue or a home or a thing that you want to buy in life. So that was one of my favorite things that the host did and showed the power of negotiation, which I think is really good for everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they did do some budgeting. They did say, for example, the wedding, if you spend this much on the dress ... I mean, there was a lot of humor in there. To me, that's a lot of the watchability. You can see, everyone, I'm trying to get Andy to really watch the rest of these. But I mean, there was a woman that had to have this ranch dressing tower. I mean, it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard, but it was also her enthusiasm was infectious. So you find these characters endearing, even in what we might perceive as silliness. The truth is we all have our thing.

Speaker 3:
Yeah. Well, I like ranch on anything, so I respect that. So pizza, vegetables. So maybe I'll have to watch that episode. I think that's that ...

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe watch that one, and the one with a donut wall.

Speaker 3:
Oh, I like it. I like donuts, and I like ranch. Not together, but I like them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, see? I'm going to win you over. When we're done with this, I'm going to work on getting Andy to watch the rest of the show because these characters are endearing. You are rooting for them. The fact that this pandemic happened and squashed a lot of the ones ... the wedding's dreams, but they still love the weddings. It's like, I love that because the weddings, ultimately, even though they did ... and they put budgets up on the screen, by the way. They do, they show what things are going to cost. They do push people to make choices within the wedding. More so the house, it's a little trickier, but they do do that. So I thought that was also a good financial lesson. So I'm winning you over, Andy.

Speaker 3:
I like it. I'm not knocking your show. I don't normally do reality shows, but [crosstalk 00:12:58] you're a good friend of mine. If you want me to watch an another episode, I will.

Bobbi Rebell:
I recommend it for people that like reality TV. But in the meantime, everyone likes you, Andy Hill. Everyone should be following you and all of your ventures. Tell us more about what you're up to and where people can find you.

Speaker 3:
Yeah. So I have a podcast called Marriage, Kids and Money, which is appropriate for the show we're talking about today.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, that's why I picked you to do this. Hello.

Speaker 3:
I know. I'm so thankful for being here. It's a show focused on helping families make smart financial choices that let them have a great today and tomorrow. So I've been doing it for about five years. It's a podcast, it's a YouTube channel. Come check it out, marriagekidsandmoney.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's award-winning by the way.

Speaker 3:
Oh, thank you. Yes, it is award winning. I do a show on Fridays now with my wife called Bread and Wine, where it's her and I talking about stuff just very similar to the show, big decisions we're making as a family and what we're going to do. And I am secretly trying to get an award for that one, so Nicole will have to come with me to Austin. You guys can hang out.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, absolutely. Well, you've got my vote for all of that. And everyone, follow Andy, follow all of his shows. And if you enjoy this podcast, please tell a friend and make sure that you are following the podcast. That's new terminology now because we no longer say subscribe. We say, follow the podcast. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. Let me know what you liked about the show. Let me know what you want to hear more of on the podcast. And thanks, Andy, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Andy Hill:
Thank you for inviting me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Our summer watch party kicks off with this endearing and often hilarious series from producer Ashton Kutcher staring financial expert Tonya Rapley and Chegg CEO Dan Rosensweig.  Bobbi is joined by Financial Wellness Expert Jason Vitug of Phroogal to share why they both could not stop binging this show and why you need to be watching it too!

A Little About The Show

Bobbi Rebell:
I have a bunch of shows picked out for this summer watch series. Most of which are sort of, I would say under appreciated and undiscovered. And one of them that's definitely under appreciated is a show called Going From Broke. It is on Crackle, our mutual friend, Tonya Rapley is part of it. The show is in its second season. Fun fact, it is produced by Ashton Kutcher who does make occasional appearances. Jason, tell us a little bit about the show.

Jason Vitug:
Well, the basic premise for Going From Broke is that each episode features someone who is well broke. Basically they need an intervention, they need some guidance. It's hosted by Dan Rosenzweig, CEO of Chegg and our friend financial expert, Tonya Rapley, who helps young professionals, young individuals become the CEO of their own lives.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So each episode is about a half an hour and it has kind of a classic reality TV structure and that the hosts come in, they do a little preview of what we're going to see. Then they do a debrief with the guest to figure out what exactly is going on. Then we see the person change their bad habits or make some tough decisions. And then there's progress reports at the end. Jason, okay, besides the fact that we both adore Tonya, what's your take on the show?

Jason Vitug:
It's really an amazing show. Just the great casting. One of the key things that I love about shows that talk about personal finance is when it humanizes the individual. And often we kind of look at the financial aspect, just the numbers, not the emotional or the personal side. And this show does a great job in choosing people with compelling stories. So they're not just broke because they made financial mistakes, they're broke because there's a ton of different aspects when it comes to their life that caused them to take on debt or to live above their means.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, a lot of these people are doing amazing things with their life. I mean, one of the people featured is someone called The Donovan. So he's a musician. He's super talented at what he does. Huge personality, very giving, but yet behind the scenes, it's a mess. Right?

Jason Vitug:
It is. And I have to say that The Donovan needs his own show. He was endearing. And I was just laughing throughout the whole entire episode. He was so dependent on his income from his gigs. And when this gig stopped during the pandemic, well, what happens, there was no money coming in and he was relying on his savings and then relying on credit. And it was exacerbating his financial issues. And all of a sudden he was in a situation where he was unhappy with his life. And that's where I related.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And also he has a very colorful personality, very over the top lifestyle, but yet he didn't really see it that way. And it really was so as you said, I mean, endearing is just the best word for The Donovan. Because if he didn't have that personality, when things would come up, like his not being able to handle tasks that so many of us take for granted, like just basic cleaning your house, mowing your lawn. Although not that I've ever done that. Watching him sort of cave was so like, you just wanted to give the guy a hug because even though he was saying things that sounded crazy, watching him adapt his self care routine to more frugal approaches was the best.

Jason Vitug:
It was hilarious. And I was smiling throughout the episode and the fact that, yes, I've washed my own dishes. I've cleaned my own house. I've mowed my own lawn, but I can not play two pianos at once. And The Donovan can play two pianos at once. So that goes to show you where his talent lies and where he was using his money to help him in other aspects of his life. But when you get that financial situation where income isn't coming in, you're going to have to make drastic changes. And he was hilarious in terms of wanting to keep his routine when it comes to self care. The lawn was awesome at the final part of the show was just amazing. And I was cracking up and I couldn't wait to watch another episode.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, totally. And by the way, every episode you have to watch to the end because the closing credits, they put in the funniest clips that just leave you with this feeling where you were just rooting for them and so happy for them that they've achieved, whatever it is they achieved over the episode. And the other common theme that I saw in the casting was that these were people that were very successful and they were also generally very giving people. For example, there was someone in the first episode who had been an athlete and he definitely had a pension for buying expensive sneakers, but he was also paying tuition, I think for, was it his little brother? I mean, these are giving people.

Jason Vitug:
These are all giving people. So when that first episode of season one, his name was Obi, he was a former track athlete and a CEO of his own company. He felt in charge of having to take care of his parent and his brother who would be going to college. And this is just one example of the many episodes where it isn't selfish people or people who are broke because they're living way above their means. And they don't care about anyone else, but themselves. They're actually individuals who have responsibilities and they care about their family members, their neighbors, their community. And so part of their wellbeing when you think about it, that way is taking care of others. And they explore this. Well, what happens when your finances fall apart and you become broke and you still have these responsibilities? And so that was one. And one other show that got me was the mother with the special needs child. And she was in dire straits and she relied on credit cards to supplement her income. And so the first take is, okay, you need to stop using credit and you need to do X, Y, and Z such as rent out room for Airbnb. So these are practical tips. That's what I love. They give practical tips to help people manage their finances and kind of stop being broke.

Jason Vitug:
But then there's a point where she wanted to continue to spend eight weeks vacation in Mexico. Part of that was, you could say, okay, well that's luxurious spending. Why would you spend eight weeks, all that cash to go to Mexico? And she shares that is the only place and time where she sees her special needs daughter smiling and being happy. And so you have to connect with people in that human element where we make these financial decisions and we think it's just the numbers, but there's always something deeper behind it. And so for that place automatically, I said, okay, stop going. You can't go to Mexico. And that would probably be my advice, just like what they started with. And then towards the end, they're like, well, yes, that's how you should be spending your money, especially when it's helping your child.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, like you said, they're very direct. They're very blunt. They're very understanding. I love an episode where they literally, I mean, this guy, he felt that he was a contractor basically. And he bought a Prius to save money because it's much more fuel efficient, but then he literally bought a truck because he felt that when he went to bid on jobs, no one would give him the job if he wasn't driving a truck and they convinced him to sell, I don't know if you saw this episode, they convinced him to sell the truck. And you know what, he was still closing the deals, but he needed an outside person to show him that. So having that outside perspective, and they do make people sell things. I mean, we were talking about Obi. Obi literally this is a spoiler, literally sells shoes that he is wearing. He bought some expensive sneakers. They made him take them off his feet. It's just an awesome show.

Jason Vitug:
It really is. And I'm a former sneakerhead. So I used to have those expensive sneakers. And so I related to him when the buyer wanted the shoes off his feet and he was going to give a pretty penny. And that is a tough decision. And some people might say, it's just sneakers. I'm telling you from a former sneakerhead, it's not just sneakers. There's a lot tied into it. And so for him to do that, just showed some growth. And I love that about the show.

Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Let's get to some of the lesson takeaways. Here's some of the money tips slash lessons from the show. First of all, I think there's a lot of perspective and understanding, for example, a lot of the spending that we see seems ridiculous, but it's brought to us in empathy and with love. And I think that's a great thing to understand that we're all human and we all have different values, right?

Jason Vitug:
Absolutely. And that kind of leads into that circumstances change. And season two takes place during the pandemic. And the pandemic has changed the lives of so many people and understanding that there are external factors that impact our finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
Totally. Debtors, a lot of us can be very judgy when it comes to people in debt. But the truth is a lot of the things that put them in debt are things that could easily happen to any of us. And they're very specific down to exactly where the money is spent and we can all relate. I mean, shutting down Amazon or not feeling like you have control over your life if you don't have that money to spend, who hasn't been there at some time, if we're all being honest.

Jason Vitug:
Yeah. I'm going to be honest. I've been there. And what's often necessary is doing these line by line breakdowns. And they do this really well from our friend, Tonya, who goes through the budget. And this is kind of like an indication that most people are successful with what they do and with their finances until something happens. And when something happens, you have to start asking the question, well, where's the money going?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And also look, they do tell the people that are sort of the stars of the show that they have to negotiate. They need to go in and get better deals. For example, if they have a lot of credit card debt, they need to figure out how best to manage it without just kind of continuing to pay it down. You can call up the people that you owe money to and make a better deal for yourself. And I think that's valuable too, to be your own self advocate.

Jason Vitug:
Yeah. It's really making those tough decisions. And sometimes those tough decisions are things like opening up your house to a roommate. And if you're used to living by yourself and having someone live in your house is quite a change. And so there's another person that we talked about, Obi selling his sneakers and others who decided to live with relatives and Airbnb that home. And so there are all these decisions that need to be made in order to get your finances from where they are to where you want them to be. And they're not easy, they're tough, but you need to make these tough decisions and they help them through that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, they had to sell stuff that was literally part of their identity. That's a really hard thing. There's a lot of tough love in this show. I mean, there's a great line from Dan Rosensweig to a guest who kept talking about how much money they make. And he was like, no, you don't make money. You generate revenue. There is a difference. And then this was the guy who had to sell his truck. Gary V yelled at him for a while and told him to Google the word profit. And he literally, Gary V starts yelling. It was such a great scene. Gary V is yelling at this guy, saying, sell everything you own. And then he said a lot of other mean stuff. So I won't spoil that. You guys can watch that episode. It's awesome because it really crosses a line that a lot of financial shows are just too polite to cross, but they get really kind of, they just... Let's just say that. I don't know. I'll leave it there.

Jason Vitug:
There's a lot of emotional intelligence in the show. There really is a lot.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Jason Vitug:
And I have to admit, I laughed. I cried. There was a lot of tears because I connected with these people and their stories. And it is really awesome seeing where they started in the beginning of the show and where they end. And as you mentioned, stay tuned till the end credits because you're going to crack up.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing is there's sort of an Easter egg in this. I mean, look, it's not a surprise. It is produced by Ashton Kutcher's production company. So he knows people. So in addition to Ashton Kutcher, there's a lot of celebrity appearances. I guess we can spoil some of them. We won't say which shows they're in, but I know Demi Lovato was in one and Jewel was in one. Who else do you remember spotting?

Jason Vitug:
There were executives such as the executive for Airbnb was there. And so there are a number, but the Demi Lovato one when you get to that episode was great because it shows that people who have achieved success in their careers and have a spotlight on them, do have financial struggles and issues as well. And so it's all connected and I love that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. The show just makes so much sense. I wish I had discovered it earlier. I'm glad there's two seasons. I hope they do more. I also, as we mentioned, we're a fan of Tonya's. I also had remembered that I interviewed Dan Rosensweig when I was a reporter at Reuters, he was at Yahoo where he was, I believe the COO. He's the CEO of Chegg. The program, as I mentioned, produced by Ashton Kutcher is sponsored by Chegg and there's definitely corporate support. And I love to see that. I think it's great. Chegg's an educational company, and this is a wonderful way to both get their message out and also do some great [inaudible 00:17:07] content. Right?

Jason Vitug:
I agree. I think it's important for us to kind of get this tie... If a corporation understands the importance of financial education and can create content that entertains me and is educational, it is a win. We need more of that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. I give it five stars. It is available. That's just a made up thing, but I'm giving it five stars. We don't have a scale. It's just five stars. That's going to be the most. And it's available on Crackle, which I also never watched. I had to download it just to watch this, but Crackle is free. There's some ads, but Crackle is free. Jason, your final thoughts.

Jason Vitug:
I recommend everyone checking it out. It is a free app, so you're not spending any money to enjoy the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. So keep at it guys. We think you're doing great.

Follow Jason!

• Facebook - @Phroogal

• Instagram - @phroogal

• Twitter - @phroogal

• Pinterest - @phroogal/

• YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEiRneOpHX-mS1lonWPbYQA

• Website - https://www.phroogal.com/
  
  
  
  
  

Follow Bobbi!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what, finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Jason Vitug:
And I have to admit, I laughed. I cried. There was a lot of tears because I connected with these people and their stories. It is really awesome seeing where they started in the beginning of the show and where they end.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what, when it comes to money being a grown up is hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, my grow up friends to our first ever financial grownup summer watch party series. During COVID you guys, I had a chance to check out some streaming shows and there's a lot of uncovered gems out there that have really got amazing money lessons. So I thought what a great idea to highlight a few of them in a little summer mini series for everybody. So we're going to highlight some of my personal favorites, and then we're going to go over the money tips from them in the coming weeks. Now for this episode, I am so excited to be joined by my friend financial wellness guru, Jason Vitug author of You Only Live Once: The Roadmap to Wellness and a Purposeful Life. Also, the brains behind Phroogal spelled with a P-H-R-O-O-G-A-L. Did I spell that right Jason?

Jason Vitug:
You got it absolutely correctly. Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jason wait, you joined the podcasting world. You just launched your own podcast.

Jason Vitug:
I have. It's Live Financially Well, so I decided let's just jump in it and have awesome conversations with myself. So I'll be reading articles and giving commentary and insights on the articles that I've written. So it's a new way to kind of digest the information and the knowledge that I've written about.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and a lot of people like to hear the audio of articles in that it's kind of like books on tape, Phroogal on tape, right?

Jason Vitug:
It is. And it's humbling when my brothers and sisters who are part of my target market, they don't read my articles or my blog and they call me or they text me. And so I was recording and sending it to them because they have busy lives and they prefer, or they're auditory learners. They learn listening as opposed to sitting down and reading an article. And I figure there might be way more people. And just like your listeners who learn through voice versus written word.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also through watching. I mean, I do a lot of book recommendations on this podcast and I guess that same idea inspired me to do the summer watch series because I think a lot of people like to consume content and maybe learn through video. I think that's something we learned over the pandemic with everybody learning stuff and having meetings over Zoom. Yes, there can be too much Zoom. Absolutely. But we also can actually learn a lot through video, right?

Jason Vitug:
We really do. That's why I'm excited about this discussion today because it's a different form of learning. So entertainment or edutainment. So this is going to be exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:
Edutainment. Okay. I have a bunch of shows picked out for this summer watch series. Most of which are sort of, I would say underappreciated and undiscovered. And one of them that's definitely underappreciated is a show called Going From broke. It is on Crackle, our mutual friend, Tonya Rapley is part of it. The show is in its second season. Fun fact, it is produced by Ashton Kutcher who does make occasional appearances. Jason, tell us a little bit about the show.

Jason Vitug:
Well, the basic premise for Going From Broke is that each episode features someone who is well broke. Basically they need an intervention, they need some guidance. It's hosted by Dan Rosenzweig, CEO of Chegg and our friend financial expert, Tonya Rapley, who helps young professionals, young individuals become the CEO of their own lives.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So each episode is about a half an hour and it has kind of a classic reality TV structure and that the hosts come in, they do a little preview of what we're going to see. Then they do a debrief with the guest to figure out what exactly is going on. Then we see the person change their bad habits or make some tough decisions. And then there's progress reports at the end. Jason, okay, besides the fact that we both adore Tonya, what's your take on the show?

Jason Vitug:
It's really an amazing show. Just the great casting. One of the key things that I love about shows that talk about personal finance is when it humanizes the individual. And often we kind of look at the financial aspect, just the numbers, not the emotional or the personal side. And this show does a great job in choosing people with compelling stories. So they're not just broke because they made financial mistakes, they're broke because there's a ton of different aspects when it comes to their life that caused them to take on debt or to live above their means.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, a lot of these people are doing amazing things with their life. I mean, one of the people featured is someone called The Donovan. So he's a musician. He's super talented at what he does. Huge personality, very giving, but yet behind the scenes, it's a mess. Right?

Jason Vitug:
It is. And I have to say that The Donovan needs his own show. He was endearing. And I was just laughing throughout the whole entire episode. He was so dependent on his income from his gigs. And when this gig stopped during the pandemic, well, what happens, there was no money coming in and he was relying on his savings and then relying on credit. And it was exacerbating his financial issues. And all of a sudden he was in a situation where he was unhappy with his life. And that's where I related.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And also he has a very colorful personality, very over the top lifestyle, but yet he didn't really see it that way. And it really was so as you said, I mean, endearing is just the best word for The Donovan. Because if he didn't have that personality, when things would come up, like his not being able to handle tasks that so many of us take for granted, like just basic cleaning your house, mowing your lawn. Although not that I've ever done that. Watching him sort of cave was so like, you just wanted to give the guy a hug because even though he was saying things that sounded crazy, watching him adapt his self care routine to more frugal approaches was the best.

Jason Vitug:
It was hilarious. And I was smiling throughout the episode and the fact that, yes, I've washed my own dishes. I've cleaned my own house. I've mowed my own lawn, but I can not play two pianos at once. And The Donovan can play two pianos at once. So that goes to show you where his talent lies and where he was using his money to help him in other aspects of his life. But when you get that financial situation where income isn't coming in, you're going to have to make drastic changes. And he was hilarious in terms of wanting to keep his routine when it comes to self care. The lawn was awesome at the final part of the show was just amazing. And I was cracking up and I couldn't wait to watch another episode.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, totally. And by the way, every episode you have to watch to the end because the closing credits, they put in the funniest clips that just leave you with this feeling where you were just rooting for them and so happy for them that they've achieved, whatever it is they achieved over the episode. And the other common theme that I saw in the casting was that these were people that were very successful and they were also generally very giving people. For example, there was someone in the first episode who had been an athlete and he definitely had a pension for buying expensive sneakers, but he was also paying tuition, I think for, was it his little brother? I mean, these are giving people.

Jason Vitug:
These are all giving people. So when that first episode of season one, his name was Obi, he was a former track athlete and a CEO of his own company. He felt in charge of having to take care of his parent and his brother who would be going to college. And this is just one example of the many episodes where it isn't selfish people or people who are broke because they're living way above their means. And they don't care about anyone else, but themselves. They're actually individuals who have responsibilities and they care about their family members, their neighbors, their community. And so part of their wellbeing when you think about it, that way is taking care of others. And they explore this. Well, what happens when your finances fall apart and you become broke and you still have these responsibilities? And so that was one. And one other show that got me was the mother with the special needs child. And she-

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. Go ahead.

Jason Vitug:
Yeah. So she was in dire straits and she relied on credit cards to supplement her income. And so the first take is, okay, you need to stop using credit and you need to do X, Y, and Z such as rent out room for Airbnb. So these are practical tips. That's what I love. They give practical tips to help people manage their finances and kind of stop being broke.

Jason Vitug:
But then there's a point where she wanted to continue to spend eight weeks vacation in Mexico. Part of that was, you could say, okay, well that's luxurious spending. Why would you spend eight weeks, all that cash to go to Mexico? And she shares that is the only place and time where she sees her special needs daughter smiling and being happy. And so you have to connect with people in that human element where we make these financial decisions and we think it's just the numbers, but there's always something deeper behind it. And so for that place automatically, I said, okay, stop going. You can't go to Mexico. And that would probably be my advice, just like what they started with. And then towards the end, they're like, well, yes, that's how you should be spending your money, especially when it's helping your child.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, like you said, they're very direct. They're very blunt. They're very understanding. I love an episode where they literally, I mean, this guy, he felt that he was a contractor basically. And he bought a Prius to save money because it's much more fuel efficient, but then he literally bought a truck because he felt that when he went to bid on jobs, no one would give him the job if he wasn't driving a truck and they convinced him to sell, I don't know if you saw this episode, they convinced him to sell the truck. And you know what, he was still closing the deals, but he needed an outside person to show him that. So having that outside perspective, and they do make people sell things. I mean, we were talking about Obi. Obi literally this is a spoiler, literally sells shoes that he is wearing. He bought some expensive sneakers. They made him take them off his feet. It's just an awesome show.

Jason Vitug:
It really is. And I'm a former sneakerhead. So I used to have those expensive sneakers. And so I related to him when the buyer wanted the shoes off his feet and he was going to give a pretty penny. And that is a tough decision. And some people might say, it's just sneakers. I'm telling you from a former sneakerhead, it's not just sneakers. There's a lot tied into it. And so for him to do that, just showed some growth. And I love that about the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Let's get to some of the lesson takeaways. Here's some of the money tips slash lessons from the show. First of all, I think there's a lot of perspective and understanding, for example, a lot of the spending that we see seems ridiculous, but it's brought to us in empathy and with love. And I think that's a great thing to understand that we're all human and we all have different values, right?

Jason Vitug:
Absolutely. And that kind of leads into that circumstances change. And season two takes place during the pandemic. And the pandemic has changed the lives of so many people and understanding that there are external factors that impact our finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
Totally. Debtors, a lot of us can be very judgy when it comes to people in debt. But the truth is a lot of the things that put them in debt are things that could easily happen to any of us. And they're very specific down to exactly where the money is spent and we can all relate. I mean, shutting down Amazon or not feeling like you have control over your life if you don't have that money to spend, who hasn't been there at some time, if we're all being honest.

Jason Vitug:
Yeah. I'm going to be honest. I've been there. And what's often necessary is doing these line by line breakdowns. And they do this really well from our friend, Tonya, who goes through the budget. And this is kind of like an indication that most people are successful with what they do and with their finances until something happens. And when something happens, you have to start asking the question, well, where's the money going?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And also look, they do tell the people that are sort of the stars of the show that they have to negotiate. They need to go in and get better deals. For example, if they have a lot of credit card debt, they need to figure out how best to manage it without just kind of continuing to pay it down. You can call up the people that you owe money to and make a better deal for yourself. And I think that's valuable too, to be your own self advocate.

Jason Vitug:
Yeah. It's really making those tough decisions. And sometimes those tough decisions are things like opening up your house to a roommate. And if you're used to living by yourself and having someone live in your house is quite a change. And so there's another person that we talked about, Obi selling his sneakers and others who decided to live with relatives and Airbnb that home. And so there are all these decisions that need to be made in order to get your finances from where they are to where you want them to be. And they're not easy, they're tough, but you need to make these tough decisions and they help them through that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, they had to sell stuff that was literally part of their identity. That's a really hard thing. There's a lot of tough love in this show. I mean, there's a great line from Dan Rosensweig to a guest who kept talking about how much money they make. And he was like, no, you don't make money. You generate revenue. There is a difference. And then this was the guy who had to sell his truck. Gary V yelled at him for a while and told him to Google the word profit. And he literally, Gary V starts yelling. It was such a great scene. Gary V is yelling at this guy, saying, sell everything you own. And then he said a lot of other mean stuff. So I won't spoil that. You guys can watch that episode. It's awesome because it really crosses a line that a lot of financial shows are just too polite to cross, but they get really kind of, they just... Let's just say that. I don't know. I'll leave it there.

Jason Vitug:
There's a lot of emotional intelligence in the show. There really is a lot.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Jason Vitug:
And I have to admit, I laughed. I cried. There was a lot of tears because I connected with these people and their stories. And it is really awesome seeing where they started in the beginning of the show and where they end. And as you mentioned, stay tuned till the end credits because you're going to crack up.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing is there's sort of an Easter egg in this. I mean, look, it's not a surprise. It is produced by Ashton Kutcher's production company. So he knows people. So in addition to Ashton Kutcher, there's a lot of celebrity appearances. I guess we can spoil some of them. We won't say which shows they're in, but I know Demi Lovato was in one and Jewel was in one. Who else do you remember spotting?

Jason Vitug:
There were executives such as the executive for Airbnb was there. And so there are a number, but the Demi Lovato one when you get to that episode was great because it shows that people who have achieved success in their careers and have a spotlight on them, do have financial struggles and issues as well. And so it's all connected and I love that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. The show just makes so much sense. I wish I had discovered it earlier. I'm glad there's two seasons. I hope they do more. I also, as we mentioned, we're a fan of Tonya's. I also had remembered that I interviewed Dan Rosensweig when I was a reporter at Reuters, he was at Yahoo where he was, I believe the COO. He's the CEO of Chegg. The program, as I mentioned, produced by Ashton Kutcher is sponsored by Chegg and there's definitely corporate support. And I love to see that. I think it's great. Chegg's an educational company, and this is a wonderful way to both get their message out and also do some great [inaudible 00:17:07] content. Right?

Jason Vitug:
I agree. I think it's important for us to kind of get this tie... If a corporation understands the importance of financial education and can create content that entertains me and is educational, it is a win. We need more of that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. I give it five stars. It is available. That's just a made up thing, but I'm giving it five stars. We don't have a scale. It's just five stars. That's going to be the most. And it's available on Crackle, which I also never watched. I had to download it just to watch this, but Crackle is free. There's some ads, but Crackle is free. Jason, your final thoughts.

Jason Vitug:
I recommend everyone checking it out. It is a free app, so you're not spending any money to enjoy the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. So keep at it guys. We think you're doing great. Jason, where can people catch up with you?

Jason Vitug:
You can find me on social media, Twitter and Instagram. That's where I'm most active @phroogal, That's P-H-R-O-O-A-L. And you can also converse with me via the website, Phroogal.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jason, thank you so much for joining me.

Jason Vitug:
Thank you. This was fun.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes. And everyone follow Jason. Follow me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and DM me what other shows you want us to talk about on the show. We're going to do a bunch of episodes in the summer watch series. Thanks again. We'll see you next time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
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