Catherine Alford did everything right as she got ready to start a family with her medical student husband. But the unexpected and financially devastating cost of her newborn twins forced her to make some tough choices, that have changed her whole view of the world. Plus- her top negotiating tip and a preview of her new book Moms Got Money: A Millennial Mom’s Guide to Managing Money Like a Boss. 

Catherine’s Money Story-

Before I became self-employed, before I gave birth to twins in 2014, I had chronicled my whole plan to become self-employed, super motivating. I saved this $10,000 baby fund. I saved all this money because I knew we'd have to move shortly after having the kids. I kept showing everyone the side hustles of this, the building up, so I was very organized and prepared which is sort of my way with money. But after I had the twins, after we moved, all of those things, having preemie twins, having some health problems with them, it pretty much drained everything I had saved and announced to thousands of people in the world on my blog that I had saved. And the twins needed this specialty formula, expensive formul. I told my pediatrician, "I don't know if I can afford it." It was like, $50 a can or something. And my husband was a student at the time, so it was just me, big time, brand new entrepreneur, mom of twins. I got this, and I did not have it. And so the pediatrician said, "Well, you can use this program called WIC which is for low-income mothers. It provides food and other things to make sure that mom and baby are well-nourished." I went and got them. And I didn't tell anybody because I felt such shame. I just felt like I was supposed to be this person helping other people with their savings, and I was supposed to be this motivating person. And I felt so ashamed that I couldn't buy this formula. And what made it worse is that I get the check. I've got these two babies with me in the grocery store, and I find the formula, do the whole thing, and the checkout lady is looking at the check, "What is this? I'm so nervous. I'm already feeling such shame. Got the two babies. I'm like, "It's a WIC check. You use it, and then I take the formula." She's like, "We've never seen one of these before. No one uses these at this store, and I don't know what to do." And so she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." And in that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids get so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store. So I start crying. The kids start crying. The manager comes over. We all made it to the car. All of us cried the whole way home, babies, me. And I think that was probably the lowest point for me, and my kids just turned seven. So it took me six or seven years to actually share that with the public.

Catherine’s Money Lesson-

I think the biggest lesson is even in those bleakest kind of bottom moments, don't give up. There can always be a comeback story. I could've asked for help. I have a whole chapter on the importance of vulnerability and telling people when you need help and even being vulnerable and sharing your successes with people too. But I am stubborn and super independent. I really wanted to make it on my own, wanted the business to work. And it just felt like such a failure for me, but I could have easily asked for help from a family member, from somebody, but I didn't. And I wanted to make myself suffer as if it was my fault, even though I had done everything right. So the experience really fueled me. I was like, "I don't want to do this again. I don't want to go through this again." So I really doubled down on my business after that. And by the time my kids were three, I was earning six figures for my business, and things got better from there. But it was really that moment that was like, "Look, we can't mess around with this business. Girl, you got sit down. You got to get going on this because we can't be in this checkout line again like this."

Buy your copy of Mom’s Got Money now!

Check out millennialhomeowner.com , a website to help millennial’s on their journey to buy a house. (Catherine’s on the team!)

Follow Catherine!

• Instagram - @catherinecalford

• Twitter- @catcalford

• LinkedIn- Catherine Alford

• Website- www.catherinealford.com

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• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell :

I was watching this interview the other day with Nick Jonas. He was promoting his upcoming album and telling everyone about how he learned to make these cool designs in his homemade cappuccinos. And by the way, based on the picture that they showed, he's actually pretty good at it.

Bobbi Rebell :

And then he broke character. You could just see the change in his body language and his voice as he got honest. Nick Jonas says he is just so bored, and you know what? I believe him. I am too. I don't know. How about you? I would love to come in here and say that I have some magical solution. Sorry, but at least I can try to get all of us to break down our walls a little bit like Nick and maybe have a little laugh at everything?

Bobbi Rebell :

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Bobbi Rebell :

Grownup Gear is perfect for that. Who doesn't need a pillow that says, "You had me a debt free" with an adorable pig wearing shades. And let's be honest. A sweatshirt reading, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either" is really what we're all thinking.

Bobbi Rebell :

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Bobbi Rebell :

Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes, and thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Catherine Alford :

So she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." In that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids gets so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store.

Catherine Alford :

I start crying. The kids start crying. All of us cried the whole way home.

Bobbi Rebell :

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, but you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hello, my grownup friends. The title of this episode is Public Money Shame at the Grocery Store.

Bobbi Rebell :

Now at first glance, you might think I was talking about guest, Mom's Got Money author, Catherine Alford. But the title doesn't refer to Catherine. It's actually meant to point to the dad who judged her, standing behind her at the grocery store, knowing nothing about her or her situation. Shame on him because Katherine's newborn twins were preemies. She needed a special formula that was crazy expensive. And so, yes, she needed help. And she had the humility and frankly, the common sense as someone responsible for two tiny humans to get the babies the help they needed, even if it meant asking for help.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'll leave it to Catherine to share more in our interview, and I'll be back with some very strong feelings about this other person later.

Bobbi Rebell :

But first, a quick check-in. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Financial Grownup. We share stories from accomplished financial grownups and the lessons from them, and then we wrap things up with the money tip we can all put to work to live a richer life.

Bobbi Rebell :

When I met Catherine for the first time in 2016, my book had just come out, and she asked me for advice because she had an idea for a book. Her twins were, I would guess, about two years old, and now they're seven. And she has published that book. I'm so truly and deeply proud of this woman, having witnessed just a fraction of what she's experienced and is now sharing.

Bobbi Rebell :

And for the non-moms out there, invest the time to listen to this story because as I said a few moments ago, the story isn't so much about Catherine. It's about all of us, including that dad who couldn't hit pause for just a moment to see the human being right in front of him and the money struggles that we choose not to see.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'm so grateful Catherine shared her story. Here is Mom's Got Money author, Catherine.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hello, Catherine Alford, my friend. You are a Financial Grownup. Welcome.

Catherine Alford :

Thanks for having me, Bobbi. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell :

I am excited to share more about your new book, Mom's Got Money: A Millennial Mom's Guide to Managing Money like a Boss. Congrats on the book.

Catherine Alford :

Thank you so much. Been a long time coming, as you know.

Bobbi Rebell :

I do know. And I want to first do your money story. We'll get back to more about the book, but the money story I've asked you to talk about is from the book. And you're going to elaborate a little bit on it here, but I hope people will go back and read the full story in the book.

Bobbi Rebell :

It's a topic that is really uncomfortable. Very few people want to talk about, but we should because, I'm just going to guess, it's probably more common in different ways than any of us want to admit in public to the world, and you were very brave to do so.

Bobbi Rebell :

Tell us your money story, Catherine.

Catherine Alford :

Sure. Well, before I became self-employed, before I gave birth to twins in 2014, I had chronicled my whole plan to become self-employed, super motivating. I saved this $10,000 baby fund. I saved all this money because I knew we'd have to move shortly after having the kids. I kept showing everyone the side hustles of this, the building up, so I was very organized and prepared which is sort of my way with money.

Catherine Alford :

But after I had the twins, after we moved, all of those things, having preemie twins, having some health problems with them, it pretty much drained everything I had saved and announced to thousands of people in the world on my blog that I had saved. And the twins needed this specialty formula, expensive formula reflux, blah, blah, blah.

Catherine Alford :

I told my pediatrician, "I don't know if I can afford it." It was like, I don't know, $50 a can or something. And my husband was a student at the time, so it was just me, big time, brand new entrepreneur, mom of twins. I got this, and I did not have it.

Catherine Alford :

And so the pediatrician said, "Well, you can use this program called WIC which is for low-income mothers. It provides food and other things to make sure that mom and baby are well-nourished." I went and got them. And I didn't tell anybody because I felt such shame. I just felt like I was supposed to be this person helping other people with their savings, and I was supposed to be this motivating person. And I felt so ashamed that I couldn't buy this formula.

Catherine Alford :

And what made it worse is that I get the check. I've got these two babies with me in the grocery store, and I find the formula, do the whole thing, and the checkout lady is looking at the check, "What is this? I'm so nervous. I'm already feeling such shame. Got the two babies. I'm like, "It's a WIC check. You use it, and then I take the formula." She's like, "We've never seen one of these before. No one uses these at this store, and I don't know what to do."

Catherine Alford :

And so she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." And in that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids get so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store.

Catherine Alford :

So I start crying. The kids start crying. The manager comes over. We all made it to the car. All of us cried the whole way home, babies, me. And I think that was probably the lowest point for me, and my kids just turned seven. So it took me six or seven years to actually share that with the public.

Catherine Alford :

But that one made it in the book. It's still the one story in the whole book that gets me every time. I go right back there to the intercom every time I read that.

Bobbi Rebell :

What's the lesson from that? I mean, there are so many. There are so many lessons, I don't know where to begin. For you, for our listeners, what is the biggest lesson, I guess?

Catherine Alford :

I think the biggest lesson is even in those bleakest kind of bottom moments, don't give up. There can always be a comeback story. I mean, I could've asked for help. I mean, I have a whole chapter on the importance of vulnerability and telling people when you need help and even telling... being vulnerable and sharing your successes with people too.

Catherine Alford :

But I am stubborn, super independent. I really wanted to make it on my own, wanted the business to work. And it just felt like such a failure for me, but I could have easily asked for help from a family member, from somebody, but I didn't. And I wanted to make myself suffer as if it was my fault, even though I had done everything right.

Catherine Alford :

So the experience really fueled me. I was like, "I don't want to do this again. I don't want to go through this again." So I really doubled down on my business after that. And by the time my kids were three, I was earning six figures for my business, and things got better from there. But it was really that moment that was like, "Look, we can't mess around with this business. Girl, you got sit down. You got to get going on this because we can't be in this checkout line again like this."

Bobbi Rebell :

How did it affect your view of people that you now see that need help?

Catherine Alford :

So much compassion, and I have so much empathy. You just... you never really know what someone is going through. And I'm actually grateful for the experience because I think I have a lot more compassion.

Catherine Alford :

I actually... I tried to buy two cans of formula for a mom behind me in line. I like really want to do this now. It was funny because I was finishing checking out, and the mom behind me had two cans of formula. I'm like, "I'll take her formula too." And she said, "Oh no, I'm buying it with WIC. Don't worry about it." And I was like, "I know about that. I used that with my twins." And I always try to help moms when I see formula on their checkout line instead of leave like the dad behind me.

Catherine Alford :

So I think even really successful people have these down moments, especially in our industry and the kind of jobs we do. We don't really like to talk about the bad stuff. Educators about personal finance talk about all the good stuff. All you see is the million dollar business. Even when you've had a lot of good runs, you can still have the bad moment and come back from it.

Bobbi Rebell :

And we learned a lot about that in the pandemic. Many people just lost clients overnight, or the clients hit pause, and there was so much uncertainty in what we do and in what so many people do. Thank you for sharing that.

Bobbi Rebell :

Let's move on to your money tip because this has to do with valuing yourself, and it particularly applies to moms in the context of your book, but it really could apply to so many people that do things that aren't necessarily valued for what they should be.

Bobbi Rebell :

What is your money tip?

Catherine Alford :

Well, this one is for all the mamas out there. I really like to encourage moms to know their approximate hourly rate. As moms, we feel so guilty. All of us know we need help. We need Mary Poppins. We [inaudible 00:12:02] fairy godmother. We all need so much help. But we resist. We're like, "We don't really need the housekeeper. Do we really need a babysitter for that thing? I could just take the kids to my hair appointment."

Catherine Alford :

It's like, "No, you need to know your hourly rate so that you can eliminate that guilt about outsourcing." As long as you make more per hour than what you're paying the person helping you, then there should be no guilt. If you're a stay-at-home mom, you could maybe do a little side hustle or something to help you out, or if you're a working mom, make sure you calculate that rate, and that way you, don't have any guilt.

Bobbi Rebell :

Fun fact, LinkedIn recently added Stay-at-Home Mom as a job category.

Catherine Alford :

I saw that. That's cool.

Bobbi Rebell :

Why so long?

Bobbi Rebell :

Anyway, I want to talk about your book, Mom's Got Money: A Millennial Mom's Guide to Managing Money Like a Boss, and I'm going to put you on the spot. In the book, you talk about cringe-worthy purchases when you advise moms to go and look at things that are maybe not necessarily needed in terms of the things that they spend money on.

Bobbi Rebell :

What is your most cringe-worthy purchase, Catherine Alford?

Catherine Alford :

I remember when I first started running ads from Facebook for my business really early on in my business, I pretty much did not have the money to spend, or it was most of what I had earned that month. And I remember spending almost $1,000 on Facebook Ads to run webinars [inaudible 00:13:22] and nothing converted and nothing sold. It was in two days, the money just disappeared like I was gambling with it.

Catherine Alford :

Now, 10 years later, I know a lot more about Facebook Ads, but just so many choices in business like that. You have to kind of try things. But that was a painful one.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right, one more thing. One thing I love in the book is that you talk about the fact that you would love negotiating, and you've taught your children too. What is your number one tip for negotiating successfully?

Catherine Alford :

My number one tip is to be nice. I think people think negotiating is all about being really aggressive and making sure you get your words in, and you make sure you say the number first. I am just so nice when negotiating, and I'm really complimentary about how much I really want to work with the person, how awesome they are. But I have to have a certain number, and it's such a bummer just because I have all these time constraints, it really has to be this number to make it work. So I am the nicest negotiator.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right. Tell us where people can find out more about you and the book.

Catherine Alford :

You could find out more about me at catherinealford.com. I'm always on the 'gram under @catherinecalford. And on my website, my readers can go to the homepage, and they can download a Mom's Got Money workbook which has a ton of stuff from the book and a lot of great things to think about and for moms to sort of jumpstart their money journey.

Bobbi Rebell :

Perfect. Thank you so much. This has been wonderful, so much great advice, and I hope everyone picks up the book.

Catherine Alford :

Thanks for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell :

Here we go, my friends. Financial Grownup Tip Number One: Do as Catherine now says, not as she did. Ask for help from people who love you. Catherine didn't take her own advice to ask for help from the people that care about her, her closest friends and family. As she said in our interview, she has a whole chapter on vulnerability. But Catherine, like many of us, wanted to make it on her own and felt that asking for help, even in these unforeseen and very extreme circumstances, would have been perceived as a failure. She was afraid of letting people down. She now knows so much better.

Bobbi Rebell :

I get it. I bet you do too. It's a really hard thing to ask for help from people that are cheering you on because they think you've got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Well, try to at least have the discussion. It's okay to say that things have changed. You might feel so much relief, just not hiding your secret.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup Tip Number Two, and this is a big one: Do not presume you have any idea what is going on with the person ahead of you in a grocery line who may be using coupons, government assistance, whatever. And don't presume you won't be in a financially vulnerable position in the future. We should all know better after the past year.

Bobbi Rebell :

I also want to share a fun moment that we experienced, we shared, I should say, over social media Catherine and I had soon after we recorded this interview. Her books arrived, and she shared the big unboxing with her kids on her Instagram account. It made me remember my own unboxing moment from 2016 with my now 13-year-old, and guess what? I found the video, and I was able to share it. It was great.

Bobbi Rebell :

The best part of writing a book or any big achievement, frankly, is seeing people you love, and especially your kids, light up with pride. Please think about that the next time you feel guilty working towards a goal or having to spend more time than you would like away from your kids and loved ones.

Bobbi Rebell :

On that note, a couple of big announcements. April is Financial Literacy Month, and thanks to the generosity of our Financial Grownup guests who have new books out and their publishers, I am giving out books to all of you to celebrate. DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and just write, "I'd love a book by a Financial Grownup," and we'll send you one.

Bobbi Rebell :

Next, I want to spend more time getting to know you. Please join me and my Financial Grownup money experts on our weekly Clubhouse chats. They happen Friday at 1:00 PM Eastern in the Money Tips for Grownups Club. DM me on Instagram if you need invitation for Clubhouse or any help in figuring out how to get there. I am @bobbirebell1.

Bobbi Rebell :

And finally, Mother's Day is coming up. I have some great gift options at grownupgear.com. I hope you take a moment to check it out. The podcast is free to you, but the revenue from Grownup Gear helps to support and pay for the podcast, so thank you for your support.

Bobbi Rebell :

Go pick up a copy of Mom's Got Money for yourself or for the moms in your life, and big thanks to Catherine Alford for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell :

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Saven is our talent coordinator and content creator, so that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell :

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell :

While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup.

Bobbi Rebell :

Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes.

Bobbi Rebell :

Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Former pre-school teacher Tiffany Aliche created a mini-“boss” entrepreneur when her savvy stepdaughter started asking questions about money- and put her on an early path to being a financial grownup. Plus we preview Tiffany’s latest book, Get Good with Money. 10 Steps to Financial Wholeness. 

Tiffany’s Money Story

Every time we would go out shopping, My husband would buy my step-daughter a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him thatt his is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup. I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words." She would get birthday money or Christmas money. I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me." What he realized, because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving, she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that. She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time. I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn. Now, when she was buying ( her favorite place is Staples) she was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were. And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy. She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

Tiffany’s Money Lesson

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently. And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Tiffany’s Everyday Money Tip

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered. And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

#2 - Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Buy Tiffany’s book, GET GOOD WITH MONEY today!

Follow Tiffany!

• Instagram - @thebudgetnista

• Twitter- @thebudgetnista

• LinkedIn- Tiffany Aliche

• Website- thebudgetnista.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up-for-work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy t-shirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded-but-still-super-comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick-me-ups to, to let them know it's all good. And that includes you.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently, like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either," or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost-grownup friend.

Bobbi Rebell:

Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

When I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others, so she had... because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, grownups, how many of you had parents who had you open up their paychecks? Definitely not me. But our financial grownup this week, Tiffany Aliche, known as The Budgetnista, didn't just do that; she talked to her bonus daughter about all the money stuff. Not just the paychecks that she was allowing her to open, as early as age seven; she talked to her about the taxes, the business deductions, the negotiations, the side hustles, the net profit and so much more. These ladies do business plans in their sleep.

Bobbi Rebell:

Welcome everyone to the Financial Grownup podcast. So, glad you guys are here. We talk with high-achieving grownups about money stories that inspired their lives and the lessons from them. And this week's financial grownup, Tiffany Aliche, is truly next-level. I joke with her that while most books these days are Money 101, hers, Get Good With Money, is Money 201 because she holds her readers to a higher standard and goes into the real grownup stuff. Not surprising, given her background in teaching preschool, where she sets kids as young as three up for success. You'll hear what she has to say about what kids that age should hear, when they say, "Buy me... " She pulls no punches.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany has a thriving business, teaching money skills to thousands of Dream Catchers and co-hosts the Brown Ambition podcast with Mandi Woodruff. But as you will hear, this mega entrepreneur, wife and mother's biggest accolades may in fact come from the lessons she is teaching her step-daughter. Here is The Budgetnista, Tiffany Aliche.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you so much, Bobbi with an "I".

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes. And congratulations on your book. I'm going to hold it up here, even though no one can see it, just because I feel good holding it up because I love the cover. Your book is Get Good with Money: Ten Simple Steps to Become Financially Whole. We're going to talk about it more later in the podcast, but give us just high-level what it's about.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's about financial wholeness, which is when these 10 core aspects of your financial life grow together and meld together to create the strongest financial foundation possible so you can build any financial house you want on top of it.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I love, when you read the book, you go along and you get percentages, so you feel like you're building to get to that 100%, which is great. Like I said, we're going to circle back to the book, but first I want to ask you your money story. And it has to do with your bonus baby, your daughter, your 14-year-old step-daughter. She was seven when you came into her life. And you had some interesting discussions about money. Tell us how your money conversations began and how they've evolved.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, they began because I just noticed that her father, every time we would go out shopping, food-shopping or whatever, she would always get a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him, "This is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup." So, I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words."

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would get birthday money or Christmas money. And so, I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me."

Tiffany Aliche :

What he realized... because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving... she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that."

Tiffany Aliche :

She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time.

Tiffany Aliche :

I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn like, "Oh... "

Tiffany Aliche :

So, now, when she was buying... her favorite place is Staples. She was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were.

Tiffany Aliche :

And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy.

Tiffany Aliche :

She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you also were very brave in that you were transparent with your money coming in and the costs associated with running a business. Tell us a little bit about why you did that because many parents hold back. We all hold back secret... I don't know if "secrets" is the right word, but we're not with our money, certainly to young people. And that was an interesting decision.

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah. So, I used to allow her... when I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Tiffany Aliche :

And I remember, I think she was in fifth or sixth grade and she had to interview someone she admired. And she chose me because she wanted to be an entrepreneur. She wasn't sure what she wanted to be. I mean, she's sold lip gloss. She's made friendship bracelets. She's done a bunch of different... now, she's got a YouTube channel. Now, she's teaching adults how to use TikTok. It's like she's got a bunch of different businesses going.

Tiffany Aliche :

But I remember when I realized she was really getting it, because she was still young then, maybe eight or nine. And I explained to her how taxes worked. She heard me talking to her father about taxes. She asked me what they were. And I told her, "Similar to sales tax, taxes are when you pay some of the money that you earn to the government so they can use it to make our country better."

Tiffany Aliche :

And I said, "But when you're an entrepreneur, taxes work differently. When I was a teacher," I told her, "Before I even get my paycheck, the government takes their taxes." And she was like, "That's unfair." I'm like, "Many would say so." But I said, "But as an entrepreneur, when you see those paychecks, Supergirl, I get all my money. Then I can use that money to grow and maintain the business. And what's left over, I pay taxes on. That's why you see me save the receipts. I save the receipts so I can show the government, 'Hey, I spent money to run my business.'" She had a bag one day and it was 15 different receipts. And I'm like, "Well, what are these from?" She's like, "These are the receipts so you give to the government so you could show them that you spend money on the business." And I was like, "Well, they have to be receipts for my business." But the fact that at eight or nine that she was thinking like that was just really transformative.

Tiffany Aliche :

I was a school teacher before I started The Budgetnista. I've seen firsthand that a lot of parents think that it's not age-appropriate to teach financial education to kids. It's inappropriate not to. There are ways to do it in a way that's appropriate as young as three because typically by three or four or five, kids start to saying, "Mommy, Daddy, Auntie, Uncle, can you buy me... " not just, "Can I have... " So, once you hear that word "buy", they've already made the connection between stuff and money. You want to make sure it's the right connection.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson from your money story?

Tiffany Aliche :

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently.

Tiffany Aliche :

And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Bobbi Rebell:

So brilliant. You brought with you an everyday money tip that has to do with paper towels?

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tell us. Tell us. This is great.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered.

Tiffany Aliche :

And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"

Tiffany Aliche :

And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

Bobbi Rebell:

Skip the drama. Find the solution.

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's talk about this book because it is... this is a substantial book. Again, it's called Get Good with Money. One of my favorite things is you say something that has become somewhat controversial. In this age, where we are so focused on automating things... and some things should be automated, absolutely. We should automate our savings and things like that. But just because something, like certain apps, can automate investing doesn't mean you don't need the human touch. You really advocate for having a human involved. Tell us more about the belief and why we need to be more cognizant of it.

Tiffany Aliche :

No, absolutely. Because there's nuance with human beings that you don't get from just automating everything. And also too, it's really from people that you learn. So, if everything is automated and you automate your investments, that's great, but you don't really learn why something works. That's why we have teachers because it's through these teachers that you get to really learn why something works and how it works.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's critically important, depending on where you are in life, that you have actual people who have been there, done that to lean into, whether it's a CFP, whether it's an accountant. You may or may not need one. You might need an insurance agent. You might need an attorney. It all depends. But at the very least, I tell people to get themselves an accountability partner, someone that you can travel the financial journey with. It might be your work mom, it might be your sister, your cousin, but someone that you can link with that you can kind of share the struggles, that you can get accountability and encouragement from and someone who can help to normalize the process. I think human beings work best in community. And it's not something that goes away just because we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:

I read so many books, Tiffany. And many of them are very good, but they're very much Money 101. This is, I feel, more Money 201. You're a former teacher. Well, you're really still a teacher, let's be honest. You hold people to a higher standard. You go into some much more sophisticated topics, but in an accessible way. Tell us about that decision to be a little bit more challenging and to be a little more ambitious with this book.

Tiffany Aliche :

Well, as a teacher, Bobbi, one of the things that we really learn is something called differentiated learning, that people learn differently. So, literally, when I taught, I had kids ages just turned three to turned five. So, that's like high school and college in the same classroom. So, I really had to learn how do I teach something in a way that doesn't offend the five-year-olds and they don't get bored and start tearing up the classroom, or it's not too heavy for the three-year-olds so they don't start tearing up the classroom. And so, I really mastered how do I speak to different ranges of folks.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, the first five steps in financial wholeness, Get Good with Money are really the foundational: budgeting, debt, credit, savings, learn to earn. But the next five really are a deeper dive. So, that's how I address that. I was like, "Okay, if you have that great super foundation, then here's where you're going to learn how to invest for retirement and wealth. Here's where you're going to learn how to make sure you get good with insurance, your net worth, getting your money team and estate planning." And so, I spoke to both of those levels by including both of them in the book. But I wanted to make sure that even if you're like, "You know what? I've got the super foundation," I really did deeper dives so you could learn something new, even if you were pretty good there. Or if you were ready to go to the next level and it was new to you, I really explained it in such a way that even if investing was new to you, that you could really learn.

Bobbi Rebell:

You did a great job. Where can people learn more about you and be in touch?

Tiffany Aliche :

So, you can learn more about me... I'm The Budgetnista on all social media platforms. And you can keep in touch and get the book at getgoodwithmoney.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one. As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup tip number two. Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends. April is Financial Literacy Month and I'm giving away a ton of incredible money books, including Tiffany's. Want one? All you have to do is DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and just say, "I'd love a book from a financial grownup." The authors that are on this podcast and their publishers are incredibly generous. And I can't wait to send out lots and lots of books.

Bobbi Rebell:

And by the way, I was so honored to have the Financial Grownup podcast on Real Simple's list of the top 10 best finance podcasts for beginners, investors and everyone, along with Tiffany and Mandi's Brown Ambition podcast and many more really fantastic shows. I'll share the article in the show notes, which you can see on my website, bobbirebell.com. And I hope you'll make the time to check out some of the other great money podcasts on the list.

Bobbi Rebell:

Big thanks to Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, for teaching us all how to be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell. But the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator, so, yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell:

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear Shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

Stay in touch on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter at @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

The best-selling author reveals what happened when her dad opened her mail and saw her credit card debt, and the surprising result when she and her husband cut their budget by 90 percent. Plus a preview of her new book: Your Turn: How to be an Adult. 

Julie’s Money Lesson:

Okay, the recliner. I'm starting to make a lot of money. I'm making enough that my husband is like, "How would you feel about me being a full-time artist?" And I was like, “Yes!”. I was supporting a family of four. My husband became a full-time artist and we started spending money. We're buying the nicer table. We're buying the nicer artwork. We're buying the nicer recliner. We realized that our set point of what we could just spend money on, in terms of discretionary spending, had just increased as our salary increased. We're looking around like we're making far more money than we ever had, but we're not saving a darn thing. What is up? And we realized that set point was just out of control. We were just dropping $1,000 without thinking about it. I read up, I talked to people and I learned this rule of if you want to save, you want to change your habits, you don't just try to start saving 5% or 10% if you've been saving nothing, you need to start saving for yourself first. You need to pay yourself first and decide what your savings goals are and set that to the side and then pay the rest of your bills. And that meant that our discretionary spending, we were going to cut by 95% or by 90%. If we were spending $1,000 on a recliner, when we had to buy the second recliner, it was going to be $100. And I was bummed because the second recliner was for me and my husband had the fancy recliner. We went to the cheaper furniture store and sat in recliners. And we had these down, sad faces, like “poor us” right? And I sound so privileged talking about this. I realize some people are like, "$100 is a lot of money." I'm just saying for me, it was a big cut. And then we found this recliner for $100 that is so comfortable. It is like the recliner of choice. You come to our house, everyone gravitates to it. It looks comfortable and it is comfortable. It's the kind of thing when you push the buttons and it starts to leans back, you're like, "Ah". It feels like a spa. And it's the cheapest thing in the whole downstairs of our house. Cut spending on something by 90% and see if you noticed.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - Julie jokes about how retirement is over romanticized and I couldn't agree more. Work is not just a path to retirement. We put in about a third of our 24 hour day, and for many of us, a lot more than those eight hours. If you hate what you're doing so much, that you are laser focused on retirement, consider refocusing that energy on enjoying your day to day more. If there's anything we've learned during the pandemic, it's that we should not assume things need to stay the same. Hit pause, give yourself some grownup tough love and fix it.

#2 - Let's get better about asking our friends and colleagues of different backgrounds and races about their experiences with money. Even though Julie clearly and candidly talks about how being a person of color impacted her money decisions in the book, as a white person I wasn't sure about asking Julie about it. I'm really glad I did. I'm not sure why I was so hesitant. And I hope we can all make time to both listen and share with each other as well. And in case you're wondering, as a white person in this country, it never even occurred to me that I needed to use a credit card to prove I belonged in a store. We need to be talking about this.

Get your copy of YOUR TURN: How to Be an Adult today!

Follow Julie!

• Instagram -@jlythcotthaims

• Twitter- @jlythcotthaims

• LinkedIn- Julie Lythcott-Haims

• Website- www.julielythcotthaims.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

It is officially spring. And that means graduation season is on. We here at The Financial Grownup Podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and the seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweaters all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup Gear also makes great gifts for Mother's Day, Father's Day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette, parties birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code graduation for a 15% discount. And thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and we truly appreciate your support.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

They handed me a check for the full amount, $3,900 plus change, and I felt so shamed and so just embarrassed. Here I am highly educated, a fancy degree from a fancy college and I'd managed to get so far in the hole. And I just cried. I just cried. Tears just rolled down my face.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a Financial Grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this. Hello, my grownup friends. It is April. I am so happy it's April. I don't know about you, but I just, I needed the better weather. Speaking to you from my home in New York City, where we've had a very brutal winter. I was fortunate. I got to go to Florida for a little bit, but we've been home for a while and this better weather could not come at a better time.

Bobbi Rebell:

And also, as some of you get to see, it's very much a work in progress, you see it on my Instagram, but I do get to go out and play golf, which is a really great way to spend time. Anyway, let's talk about this week's Financial Grownup. The adjective that I am going to use to describe her, delightful, Julie Lythcott-Haims is out with a new book, Your Turn: How to be an Adult. It is the much anticipated follow-up to her previous book, How to Raise an Adult, and not to be forgotten in between those, Real American: A Memoir, and a very personal book, which continues to grow in relevance.

Bobbi Rebell:

Julie is a former Stanford Dean. She left that position to pursue her passion, the career she'd always dreamed about, writing. You know what? It's working out okay. Julie's new book, Your Turn: How to be an Adult, is about more than just being a Financial Grownup, though she does have a chapter which is pretty much on the topic. Chapter eight, check it out. The book is about being a full on adult, but for the purposes of this podcast, she was a good sport and gets candid about her money blunders and victories. Here is Julie Lythcott-Haims. Julie Lythcott-Haims, you are a Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Bobbi, no one's ever said that to me before. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

You are very much a Financial Grownup. You're the author of Your Turn: How to be an Adult. Welcome.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I think I'm going to learn something.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm going to ask you to share a money story from the book, which has to do with credit card debt, but there's a really interesting angle that has to do with how you relate to your family, which is so appropriate when we talk about Financial Grownups.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. Thanks for pointing to something that's deeply personal. No, of course. I shared it in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's in the book, Julie.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I know. I'm trying to be vulnerable with my readers so that they can feel more safe and seen. Okay, picture me. I now 53, but in the story, I was maybe 22. I had amassed a lot of credit card debt in college. I was at Stanford University. The student union was basically lined with the desks of fakes who were there to offer me a credit card application. And I filled out maybe two of them. I had two credit cards. I would use my credit cards at the local shopping center. I would use them for groceries. I would use them for dinners and lunches out and coffee. I was just, I was spending money without having really learned the habits of how you keep track of your expenses and the whole interest part with credit cards. Long and short, I had accumulated about $3,900 in debt.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

This would be around 1990, 1991. Maybe double that, maybe like $6,000, $7,000 in today's dollars. I had no way to pay it off. My first job I'd earned $20,000 a year. It's hard to pay down a debt of $3,000 when you're only earning $20,000 gross. And I was headed off to law school and was living with my parents over the summer before law school started. And so my mail, including my bills, was being forwarded to my parents' address. Well, unbeknownst to me, after I had opened the latest credit card bill showing just how much I owed, my parents had read it as well.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

One night they just solemnly came toward me and said, "You're about to go start grad school and you're getting married. And we want you to start life with Dan", my boyfriend and soon to be husband, "with a financial clean slate. So here's a check." They handed me a check for the full amount, $3,900 plus change. And I felt so shamed. And so just embarrassed. Here I am highly educated, a fancy degree from a fancy college, and I'd managed to get so far in the hole and I just cried. I just cried. Tears just rolled down my face. They weren't judgmental. They weren't scolding me. They were offering me this gift.

Bobbi Rebell:

There's also another lesson for our listeners about relationships and how you communicate with your family.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. That really pushes the button, right? I think I was so ashamed that I had let them down by being this child of theirs who had been so irresponsible. And I think the lesson is had I only reached out sooner. I just kept digging the hole deeper and deeper by paying the minimum on my credit cards. If I had reached out to my parents six months earlier, or a year before, or two years before, I would probably never have gotten into such bad debt to start with.

Bobbi Rebell:

We're going to talk for your everyday money lesson about the fact that you guys like to splurge. But then there was sort of an aha moment. Tell us about the recliner.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Okay, the recliner. I'm starting to make a lot of money. I'm making enough that my husband, who's a designer, a product designer, user experience designer, is like, "How would you feel about me being a full-time artist?" And I was like, yes. Okay, that's how capable I was of supporting a family of four. My husband became a full-time artist and we started spending money. We're buying the nicer table. We're buying the nicer artwork. We're buying the nicer recliner.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

We realized that our set point of what we could just spend money on, in terms of discretionary spending, had just increased as our salary increased. We're looking around like we're making far more money than we ever had, but we're not saving a darn thing. What is up? And we realized that set point was just out of control. We were just dropping $1,000 without thinking about it. I read up, I talked to people and I learned this rule of if you want to save, you want to change your habits, you don't just try to start saving 5% or 10% if you've been saving nothing, you need to start saving for yourself first.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

You need to pay yourself first and decide what your savings goals are and set that to the side and then pay the rest of your bills. And that meant that our discretionary spending, we were going to cut by 95% or by 90%. If we were spending $1,000 on a recliner, when we had to buy the second recliner, it was going to be $100. And I was bummed because the second recliner was for me and my husband had the fancy recliner. We went to the cheaper furniture store and sat in recliners. And we had these down, sad faces, like poor us, we can only, right? And I sound so privileged talking about this. I realize some people are like,"$100 is a lot of money."

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I'm just saying for me, it was a big cut. And then we found this recliner for $100 that is so comfortable. It is like the recliner of choice. You come to our house, everyone gravitates to it. It looks comfortable and it is comfortable. It's the kind of thing when you push the buttons and it starts to leans back, you're like, "Ah". It feels like a spa. And it's the cheapest thing in the whole downstairs of our house.

Bobbi Rebell:

But it's good. It's working for you and you saved 90%.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

Nobody misses not spending the money.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

That's right.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's so great. And yeah, the tip is basically cuts something by 90% and see if you noticed.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Right. That's right.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That's a good one.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

100%. Yep.

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's talk more about this book. I devoured it. I have to say it's a robust book. This is a book that took a lot of research. I really encourage people, not only to read it, but to settle in with it because it really is worth your time. I picked out a few of the things that I'd like you to elaborate on within the book. And the first one kind of tag team to what we just talked about because there's a lot of talk about cutting your expenses so that you can retire early. That's one of the motivations for taking drastic action when it comes to spending. But you talk about the fact that retiring early is really over romanticized.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

The retiring early rhetoric tends to be, "My job sucks. I can't wait to retire. I'm just going to slog away working in this dungeon so that I can at 55 or 57 or 60, whatever, I can kick back and relax and travel." If that's the choice you're making, more power to you. But in the book, I'm trying to expand people's horizons and get folks to think maybe work doesn't have to feel so awful, such that all you want to do is leave work. Maybe you can lead a career life, a job life, a professional life that is intrinsically rewarding. It feels good. You're tapping into your talents, your strengths, your loves, you're growing. You're making enough money to pay your bills.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

And you're like, "Hey, I'm not eager to retire. I enjoy what I'm doing." And then to put a fine point on it, Bobbi, oftentimes when people retire, that is they cease doing that which they have always done, that which has been a huge part of their identity, they begin to wither psychologically. They begin to wither physically. They begin to wither in terms of their personal connections, because they're not making things with their hands, they're not doing as much with their brain and they're not seeing human beings as much. Retirement can often lead to a downward spiral. If one is not sort of healthy, hail and active in one's retirement, it can really be the beginning of the end.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I'm here to say, love the work you do, do the work you love, make sure it pays your bills and do it for as long as you can and build in the travel and the enjoyment and the fishing and all of that along the way, rather than waiting to live that life you imagined only after you've retired from some terrible job.

Bobbi Rebell:

Such a good reminder. Another thing that really stood out in the book that I went, oh, that I don't think about enough, when you talked about the spending, and this ties into your spending on the credit cards when you were younger especially, you talk about the fact that racial stereotypes played into your spending decisions. Tell us more.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Well, what listeners need to know is I'm a black and biracial woman, very light skin. But nevertheless, I think to the world, unambiguously of color. And most people figure out that I'm black. I, as a young person, had learned to ... I had internalized the hate that I had experienced along the way. Microaggressions, outright racism, these things were things I experienced in childhood. By the time I get to college and I'm at an elite college, I'm at Stanford University in Silicon Valley and I have these credit cards. I am using the credit cards when I'm in a store, in a fancy store, at the Stanford Shopping Center or in a nice restaurant as a way to demonstrate, I have credit, I am capable. You do not have to associate me with that stereotypical black person you think can't afford to purchase your goods, your food, because I have this credit card.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I was really deep in my internalized oppression that I was trying to not be the stereotypical black person. I was trying to be the model Negro, if you will, I'm using terms of stereotype. I have long since grown out of that behavior, but I will say, yeah, the credit card was like an appendage that was proving my ability or my worthiness or my right to be in these white environments. I overspent as a result, I'd be with friends at dinner and say like, you know what? I'll take care of the bill. And I'd plunk down my gold. How did I have a gold American Express card so young? But I did. They knew who they were preying on. It worked, right? I was like, I'll take care of the bill. And it was my way of showing, not just the restaurant, but my friends, I have money, even though I didn't necessarily have the money in the bank to pay that bill.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's a tough situation that society puts people in that mindset.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

We could talk about this a lot more, but this is a short podcast and I want to talk about one final theme. And that is that you really humanize a lot of our experiences with money by bringing stories of other people into the book. I wanted to ask you to share that a little bit.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. Thank you so much. The book is part memoir, me telling my lived experience, as you've just asked me about, me with some self-help tips, practical advice, but then I've got the stories of these other people in every chapter, a really diverse set of people from all walks of life in order to say to all readers, I'm trying to envision all of you as I write this. And the two stories in the money chapter are Wesley, who grew up working poor, put himself through community college, put himself into position of getting to drive for UPS and has been with UPS now for 35 years and will retire with a full pension from UPS.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

It hearkens back to days of yore, when you'd work for one employer all your life, and they were very loyal to you and you were loyal to them and unions were strong and that's not really the way much of the working world works these days, but there are plenty of industries that still do offer pensions, like the package driving industry, like UPS and police and law enforcement more broadly and schools. People who work for the government tend to have a pension. And this is a way to the middle class. Wesley has provided a life for himself, his wife and his son that is just many steps above what he grew up with financially. I wanted that story in there. I think it's a really important story about the American dream and that in many ways it is alive and well today.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

The other story is Denae, who's a dancer, got an undergraduate degree and a master's in dance. She's a professional dancer in New York City. She's done some amazing gigs, but dancing gigs come and they go. And when they go, she doesn't have income unless she supplements that with other work, which she does. Nevertheless, she had racked up with interest $50.000 in student loan debt, living in the most expensive city in America, New York, and or one of the most expensive, and she set herself a goal to get out of that credit card debt.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

She said, "I'm going to be debt three and three years." And she did it by being extremely frugal about her food, extremely thoughtful and mindful about her choices, about how she went places, what kinds of places she rented. She would even say when she was working a temp job in between dancing gigs, somebody took her food out of the fridge and started eating it. And she put a note on the refrigerators, "Hey, please don't eat my food. I'm paying down my student loans." And if that wasn't crystal clear, because she didn't know who did it, but she just knew I have to send this message.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

She stood up for herself, both to herself and to her friends and coworkers to say, "Hey, don't take my stuff. I'm paying off my student loan." Really brave. She did pay down that loan. Danced through the subway in a rented dress that she got from Rent the Runway with a big sign saying, "I'm debt-free. Hug me." And then she became a financial planner to help other people. When she's not dancing, she's now a certified financial planner person because she saw how many of her own peers, highly educated, didn't know enough about money. Here's to Denae, very much a resource for other people now that she is completely debt free.

Bobbi Rebell:

I am smiling ear to ear hearing that story. And there's so many other wonderful human stories in this book. We know it's going to be available everywhere. I won't have you say that, but where can people find out more about you and any virtual touring that you're going to be doing, my dear?

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thank you, Bobbi. The best way to be in touch with me is through my website, JulieLythcott-Haims.com. I'm sure Bobbi will put the spelling of that in the show notes. From there, you can follow me on social I'm @JLythcott-Haims everywhere. Maybe even Tik Tok, who knows, we'll see. I'm starting a membership club because I like to get real with people. I like to get really vulnerable and share. I know that that's the way we learn and grow and feel less lonely and I'm starting that. That's all online. Go to my website and just from there, you'll be able to follow me what I'm up to and all the virtual tour stuff will be on there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, thank you so much for this. Thank you for the book and thank you for joining us.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

You're amazing. Thanks for having me. And I actually feel more competent about my financial choices and what I've learned from them because you helped me think it through, by walking through these stories with me. Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:

They're all your stories. Thank you.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thanks.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, here's my take. Financial Grownup tip number one, Julie jokes about how retirement is over romanticized And I couldn't agree more. Work is not just a path to retirement. We put in about a third of our 24 hour day, and for many of us, a lot more than those eight hours. If you hate what you're doing so much, that you are laser focused on retirement, consider refocusing that energy on enjoying your day to day more. If there's anything we've learned during the pandemic, it's that we should not assume things need to stay the same. Hit pause, give yourself some grownup tough love and fix it.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial Grownup tip number two, let's get better about asking our friends and colleagues of different backgrounds and races about their experiences with money. Even though Julie clearly and candidly talks about how being a person of color impacted her money decisions in the book, as a white person I wasn't sure about asking Julia about it. I'm really glad I did. I'm not sure why I was so hesitant. And I hope we can all make time to both listen and share with each other as well. And in case you're wondering, as a white person in this country, it never even occurred to me that I needed to use a credit card to prove I belonged in a store. We need to be talking about this.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is Financial Literacy Month and I am giving away a ton of incredible books, including Julie's. You want one? All you have to do is DM me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1, and just say, "I'd love a book from a Financial Grownup". The authors that are on this podcast and their publishers are incredibly generous. And I can't wait to send out lots and lots of books. Everyone, pick up Your Turn: How to be an Adult and big thanks to Julie Lythcott-Haims for helping us all be Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creators. Yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life.

Bobbi Rebell:

And this year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go-to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free, while you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear Shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Acorn’s Chief Education Officer Jennifer Barrett shares her own “wake up’ call’ when she learned to think like a breadwinner, and gives us specific strategies to build wealth and create a path to have the rich life we all deserve. 

Jennifer’s Money Lesson-

I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth. So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Jennifer’s Money Tip-

I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbi’s Tips-

Financial Grownup Tip #1-

Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent.

Financial Grownup Tip #2-

Thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Get your copy of Think Like A Bread Winner by Jennifer Barrett

Follow Jennifer!

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• Website- www.jenniferbarrett.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbie Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good, and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more thaT I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle.

Bobbie Rebell: Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently. Like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup, or almost grownup, friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear, and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Jen Barrett: Deep down. I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life. I really thought my husband would be the main earner. So it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary, and then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises.

Bobbie Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbie Rebell: Hey, Grownups, this episode has been about five years in the making. I'll never forget sitting in a Midtown restaurant with my new friend, Jennifer Barrett. A mutual friend had introduced us thinking, "Well, you guys have a lot in common and maybe you guys will come up with some projects together." So we were brainstorming our two big ideas. For me, it was Financial Grownup and the idea of sharing money stories to inspire people to build the foundation for a wealthy life of choices, getting to live the life that they want. For Jen, it was the concept that we all had to, well, think like breadwinners. Jen had, and still has, I should say, what we call a big job. She really is the breadwinner and her job as the chief education officer at Acorns is intense and sometimes all consuming. But finally, her new book, Think Like a Bread Winner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less is coming out.

Bobbie Rebell:I can tell all of you it has been well worth the wait. I was honored that Jen asked me to contribute to this book and to endorse it along with David Bach, Eve Rodsky, the author of Fairplay, Farnoosh Torabi, who by the way wrote When She Makes More, so thinking along the same path, and Erin Lowry, who's been a frequent guest on this podcast, author of the Broke Millennial books series, and many more. In our interview, Jen Barrett shares the story that started it all when she realized what she didn't want to admit. If she wanted to get what she wanted to get, she was going to have to start thinking like a breadwinner. Here is Jennifer Barrett.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen Barrett, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jen Barrett: Thanks so much for having me.

Bobbie Rebell: I'm so excited to talk to you about your new book. So many years in the making, we've been talking about this for years. It's finally here. Think Like A Breadwinner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less. By the way, Jen, it's already getting reviews that are amazing. This one I'm going to read to people. It's from Ladders, which is a career website. "Jennifer Barrett's manifesto for working women transcends its goal by being more than a finance book, but a testament that anyone anywhere can achieve their goals with the right advice." Not bad, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, that was a nice review. It was nice to read.

Bobbie Rebell: You're very modest.

Jen Barrett: I know. You're so nervous. You're on pins and needles before the book comes out. You're like, "I hope they like it." So it was really nice to read that.

Bobbie Rebell: Well, I got a sneak peek of the book because I got to endorse it so everyone can read my blurb when they get the book. Before we talk more about it, though, you did bring with you a money story, which really inspired the book so many years ago. Tell us your money story, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, well, there's a material difference between being able to cover the bills and handle a budgets and building wealth that supports your life and the future you want. That difference became super clear to me just after we'd had our oldest son. At the time, I was in my early 30s and we were sharing a small one bedroom apartment with our toddler who was about 18 months old. One night I was pacing back and forth with him, trying to get him back to sleep, and I think it just hit me so hard in that moment that we were in a situation that was just completely unsustainable.

Jen Barrett: I had this moment of, "Wait a second. I thought I was doing everything right financially." I had a little 401k. I had a little bit of savings. I was paying half the bills. But what I realized was that I hadn't been putting money away for the things that were most important to me, and that was being able to have another child, to afford to buy a place or even to move into a bigger apartments because we lived in Brooklyn, which is not cheap. I did some real soul searching and asked myself, "Why didn't I make those choices with my money to save more and to invest more?" I realized that subconsciously I had been thinking that my husband would take the lead there. In that moment, I think it finally dawned on me how precarious an assumption that is. So I asked myself in the days that followed, "How would the choices I make with my money and my career be different if I had been raised to think like a breadwinner?"

Jen Barrett: That's what sort of set me off on a whole new journey and brought me to where I am today, more than a decade later, which is a much better place financially. We have a larger home. I helped with most of the down payment. We have two lovely sons now. I've had both a career and been able to build the kind of wealth that I couldn't have even imagined 12 years ago when I had that wake up call.

Bobbie Rebell: Tell us more about what you were doing before you had that wake up call, what kind of job you had. Because you had a really good job that a lot of people would be very, very envious of and really admire. I mean, you were high achieving and then the things that you looked for in the next job, besides obviously paying more. I know there was a lot of soul searching about sort of what people would think, because we're both journalist backgrounds, there's a lot of judgment there.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, and I think that's an important point is just because you have a good job doesn't mean that you have your finances together. You can be a professional success and feel like a financial failure. I interviewed more than 100 women for the book and I did find that to be the case with a surprising number of women who were otherwise very successful. So I think I was in sort of the same situation but with one crucial distinction, which is I was an editor at Newsweek at that point a pretty big weekly news magazine. It has since sort of gone under and been reborn and it's not quite the same as it used to be, but it was a great job. I really looked like I had it all together from the outside, but I was really living paycheck to paycheck for the most part.

Jen Barrett: We say paycheck to paycheck, but what I was was broke, right? I only had a few hundred dollars in my savings. I was still paying down some credit card debt. So if you looked at my actual net worth, I was in negative territory and I really wasn't making the kinds of choices or making the kinds of money that would allow me to support the life that I really wanted. One big reason for that, which is almost embarrassing to admit now and I've since changed my approach with this significantly, is that I had never negotiated my salary. So when I got the job at Newsweek, I was just so thrilled to be hired there I literally did not even think to negotiate. I do think part of that was that I was so excited to be hired there, but the other part of it was deep down I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life.

Jen Barrett: I really thought my husband would be the main earner and so it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary. Then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises. So one other critical moment for me was I came back from maternity leave and I found out that someone had been hired who had just a few more years experience than me in a very similar role and they were making 50% more than me. That moment was like ... It was so crushing that I vowed I would never ever make that mistake again and I was going to negotiate the hell out of every job offer and raise that I got from that point on, and it made me sort of reassess this idea I had about loyalty and about employers just taking care of you because you're doing a great job. It was a real wake up call in that sense too, where I realized I need to advocate for myself. I need to show my value. I need to ask for it and not assume that I'm going to get it just because I'm doing a good job.

Bobbie Rebell: So you set out to get a job that paid more. Tell us what that job was and how that onboarding went.

Jen Barrett: Yeah. So I was hired in my first job in management. I became the director of a health site. It was part of NBC. It was called iVillage Health. It was a huge site at the time. I think one of the top five largest health sites for women. It was a dramatic increase in the amount of responsibility I had, but also in my salary. So I ended up making almost double what I had ... Actually, no. More than double what I had been making at Newsweek and in between there I freelanced, and when I was freelancing, I really understood that I had undervalued myself and my skills because I was able to make a lot more freelancing than I had in my full-time job at Newsweek. So that was also a realization and a validation of the fact that the skills that I had were valuable. Then with this job, it both provided a lot more income. It allowed me to get the mortgage and it also put me on the management track, which I have been on ever since.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what was your husband thinking while this was going on? Did you have talks about this?

Jen Barrett: We did and I think part of it was when he and I first started dating, he was working at a startup at the time and was making a lot more than I was as a reporter. But I think that's where some of the assumptions sort of got set in my head. The startup went under and then he moved back to journalism. So he took a pretty big pay cut and suddenly our salaries were much closer than they have been. But I think in my head, I still kept telling myself that that was a temporary situation. I still expected him to earn considerably more than me, even as the evidence started to mount that that may not be the case, particularly with both of us being in journalism. We did have some discussions around that and in particular, when I got that job in management at that point, he was on contract.

Jen Barrett: So we realized that my income and my income prospects were probably greater at that particular point. Certainly I was the one who had secured the mortgage in part because I had a full-time job and it's very difficult when you are on contract to get approved. So we realized that my income was really critical to the household and so that launched a whole series of discussions about how is this going to work. I'm not going to say it was easy. We had to have a lot of really difficult discussions because I was pregnant with our second son when I moved into the breadwinner role. In my mind, again, I thought, "Oh, this is sort of a temporary situation where I'm going to take on this really demanding role so we can get the mortgage. I'll keep doing this."

Jen Barrett: Then I found I really enjoyed it. I realized I really am quite ambitious and so I wasn't sure I wanted to give up that role, but at the same time, for a while I was also trying to be the primary caregiver and that, as anyone who has tried to do both can tell you, is almost impossible to sustain. So it led to some really emotional and candid conversations with my husband about what role are we each going to take here and how are we going to divide all the responsibilities, household responsibilities, caregiving, breadwinning, in a way that feels fair to each of us?

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what is the lesson from your story?

Jen Barrett: I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth.

Jen Barrett: So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Bobbie Rebell: You also brought with you in everyday money tip.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbie Rebell: It's a very good gut check and I think it's something that sounds easy, but we don't really do that a lot. We don't usually just kind of pause and sit down and really think about that and maybe even write down a few things that we want to do. I find when you write things down, sometimes they stick a little bit better. I don't know. All right, we got to shift gears because I don't want to run out of time and we have to talk about Think Like A Breadwinner because this is a book that has been in the making for quite a long time, because it is so well researched, Jen. You spent a lot of time doing the work here and the book is chock-full of statistics that are ... Some of them would just blow my mind. If you could share with us just one statistic that's sort of your elevator pitch to get this book, what is that one stat that stands out?

Jen Barrett: Well, I think one of the most significant stats is that half of moms in this country today are contributing at least 40% of the total household earnings. That's according to the latest Institute for Women's Policy Research report. That just reinforces the fact that women's income is absolutely critical right now. I think we saw that when women started dropping out of the workforce. We could see what the impact was going to be, not just on families, but on the economy.

Bobbie Rebell: A lot of this book was already done before the pandemic, but you were still finishing it up during the pandemic. What is in the book now that would not have been pre-pandemic?

Jen Barrett: The pandemic reminded us of how important it is to take charge of our finances and to build the kind of savings and wealth that provide financial security and help us weather tough times like this. So that message of taking care of yourself and putting money into an investment account and building wealth to support you not just now but in the future is more important than ever.

Bobbie Rebell: So well said. Jen, where can people catch up with you? I know that your book is going to be everywhere.

Jen Barrett: I hope so. You can find me at jenniferbarrett.com and you can read more about the book there, and then I'm on social media all over the place. It's @jbarrettNYC on Instagram, Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn.

Bobbie Rebell: All the places.

Jen Barrett: Oh, the places. Clubhouse. Yes.

Bobbie Rebell: Yes, Clubhouse. Let's not forget that. Thanks, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Thank you.

Bobbie Rebell: Here we go. Financial Grownup tip number one. Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent. Financial Grownup tip number two, thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Bobbie Rebell: One thing I do, I always try to think of new revenue streams. My latest is Grownup Gear. You can see more about it at grownupgear.com. I hope you'll support it by checking out the merchandise. It's perfect for all of your grownup milestones. Gifts for graduation, new parents, mother's day, father's day, a new home, birthdays, or just celebrating being a grownup and kind of owning it. Discount codes available on my Instagram @bobbirebell1. Another reason to follow me on Instagram, we will be giving away copies of Jen's book and of other authors on the show. This spring, so many amazing authors are on tap and they're generously giving gifts to our Grownup community. I also want to invite everyone to join our weekly Friday at 1:00 PM Clubhouse chats in the Money Tips For Grownups club. DM me on Instagram if you need and invite to Clubhouse. Big thanks to Jen Barrett for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbie Rebell: The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books.

Bobbie Rebell: To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Author Lindsey Pollak watched her thriving speaking career hit a wall when the pandemic hit a year ago. The career and workplace expert realized she had ignored her own advice, and had all her eggs in one basket. Lindsey gets refreshingly candid about how bad it got, what she did, and how we can all do better. 

Financial Grownup Tip #1: Social media is more than social. Certainly during the pandemic depending on your business,  it has become an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the ones that fit your business. It’s not just about being social- it is about career success -and sometimes survival as well.

Financial Grownup Tip #2- If you are on social media- don’t forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in clubhouse- raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only but I do have invites so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on clubhouse- Money Tips for Grownups. I’d love to connect with you there. 

Buy your copy of Recalculating : Navigate Your Career Through The Changing World of Work.

Follow Lindsey!

• Twitter- @LindseyPollak

• LinkedIn- Lindsey Pollak

• Website- lindseypollak.com

• Instagram- @LindseyPollak

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Full Transcript-

Bobbi Rebell: Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes. And thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Lindsey Pollak : I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures in speaking bookings. And my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to financial grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: It's been a year guys. If you want to get technical, it's been a year and about a week. Although most of us, frankly, lost count of the days and didn't even know which day of the week it was for a while. The pandemic put so many of our lives on hold and so many of our businesses in the tank.

Bobbi Rebell: For people who make their living talking to people in-person, they went from thriving to, well, there's no cute pun here. The business died. There was nothing there. For my friend, Lindsey Pollak, who is a top speaker and bestselling author, ironically in the career space, her career literally went poof last March with no end in sight.

Bobbi Rebell: This was literally unchartered territory for pretty much anyone alive these days. Two weeks to stop the spread was one thing, but getting back to packed rooms with over 1,000 people as she was used to, yeah, crickets. Even now. Lindsey agreed to share her experience with us in the hopes that many of us can at least relate to and get some solace from her experiences.

Bobbi Rebell: She also has, as she always has, great and specific advice on how we can better be prepared for the future and the unimaginable. She also managed to write a fantastic book in quarantine. It is called Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work. we do a little sneak peak at the end of our interview. Here is Lindsey Pollak. Lindsey Pollak, you are a financial grownup and welcome back to the show.

Lindsey Pollak : It is an honor to be back for the second time. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk about your new book, which was written in quarantine and has a lot of really relevant advice for anyone who is thinking of recalculating. That's also the name of the book. But first you brought us a very relevant story that happened to you just when quarantine was starting. And sadly, too many of us can relate to this. Tell us your money story, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I'd be happy to. So, like many people in March of 2020, everything stopped and everything changed. And I think we hear about food service people and certain jobs that you know would be destroyed by the pandemic or pushed off. Professional speakers were in that category.

Lindsey Pollak : I had at that time, been doing about 70 to 80 live speaking events per year. And I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures. I can't even say it. I stumble on the words. I lost six figures in speaking bookings and my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: Just to explain how speaking works, you had deposits. How does the contract work? Did you have to return all the deposits or did they reschedule or was it just gone?

Lindsey Pollak : So, you know what's interesting is, my contract said that the deposits were nonrefundable and that we would make our best efforts to reschedule if something got canceled. Several people took me up on that, I will say, and let me keep the deposits.

Lindsey Pollak : Several requested for their own financial difficulties to return it and I made the decision to do that, to keep the relationships because I understood that people were in really tough times. So I did return them. So it sort of went beyond the contract. And for anything that had been booked, but not yet paid, of course, that just disappeared. Bobbi Rebell: So then what?

Lindsey Pollak : It was tough. And I'll tell you a couple of things, because it's a financial podcast. Number one, just by luck, about a year before my bookkeeper had said, "You really need to have a credit line for your business." I had contacted my bank, Chase Bank, and gotten a very significant credit line because I have good credit that I'm extremely proud of. It's one of the proudest things in my life that I have good credit. And I got a significant six-figure credit line, which saved me.

Lindsey Pollak : I paid it all back ultimately over time, but having that fund to dip into to make sure that I could continue to pay my assistant and my rent and so on. I cut back on expenses tremendously, and I started reaching out. And it's really interesting as I didn't have a plan for where the money would come from, but I've always relied on the fact that relationships are where opportunities come from.

Lindsey Pollak : And I just called people, checked in, "How are you doing? What's going on? How are you?" I mean, for about four weeks, it was just, "Oh my gosh, what's happening?" And slowly but surely, a relationship with a UK firm that had been pending for a while, took off. Slowly but surely, people who had never booked for years were like, "Hey, could you do a session on how to work remotely?" And I was like, "Yes, I can." That had been one slide in my presentation. And now, suddenly that became a presentation.

Lindsey Pollak : It was nowhere near what I had projected for the year, but the year turned out okay. And this miracle moment was on May 5th. I'll never remember. I got an email from my agent about something totally different. And at the very bottom of the email, she said, "And by the way, do you think you might want to write a book during this pandemic experience? I feel like you might have something to say." And that one sentence turned into Recalculating, which we're here today to talk about.

Bobbi Rebell: So perfect. So you basically pivoted from doing speaking to going back to book writing, which you were always doing. This is I think number four, number five? I can't keep track of you, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I think of them like children and I had been writing a book every five years. And I had written the remix last year in 2019. And I say it's like my accidental fourth child. I didn't mean to have a child so quickly after my third, but so it happens. Bobbi Rebell: Well, it's a wonderful book. We're going to talk about it soon, but tell me what is the lesson for our listeners from this?

Lindsey Pollak : It's something that I think is such a cliche, but true. Necessity is the mother of invention. I was a speaker. I was like, I'm a speaker. That's what I do. And I realized I can't only be a speaker.

Lindsey Pollak : And when I look at the people I most admire in my world, people like you, it's do you have a podcast? Do you have online courses? Do you have newsletters? Do you get paid to write? And what I remembered is sometimes you go back to basics, which I think is the other lesson.

Lindsey Pollak : When I was first starting out, I didn't make enough money from speaking. So I was freelance writing. I was coaching. I was doing resume reviews. I was doing anything I could. And I realized I have to get back into that mindset that I'm not "just a speaker." And that's what led to these other opportunities.

Lindsey Pollak : Now, I don't want to say it was easy. I don't want to say I wasn't scared, or I didn't stay up at night, or I wasn't uncomfortable dipping into my savings or my credit line, which I did do. But ultimately, what got me through it, was going back to basics and realizing I have to get creative.

Bobbi Rebell: Looking back, what would you have done differently in terms of setting up your life? Would you have diversified your business more in advance?

Lindsey Pollak : Yes. Sometimes success is not so good because you get so deep into one area that you put all your eggs in one basket. And what's really funny is I've advised job seekers for years, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Even if you're happily employed, keep your network going. Don't just apply for jobs in one field." And I had to take my own advice.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said. And it's good to know that even people far along and super successful in their careers, sometimes have to take their own advice, which they move past. I love this. You brought with you an everyday money tip and I'm going to give a little bit of a spoiler. One part of this made you $2,000 in just extra cash. Tell us your everyday money tip because this is so fascinating. I had no idea this was such a big thing.

Lindsey Pollak : Okay. So at my heart, I grew up in Norwalk, Connecticut, the burbs. I am just a suburban girl. And in my high school, I remember they had all these categories, best dressed, best looking, all that. There was informal stuff that we would just send around to be silly.

Lindsey Pollak : And mine was most likely to drive a station wagon in the suburbs. Which by the way, I have not done, but my money tip was to clip coupons. And in the old days, I remember going to the grocery store with my mom and she had an envelope. Right. And she would hand the coupons to the checkout person. And apparently, I used to play that at home, handing the coupons to the checkout person. Bobbi Rebell: I think we all did.

Lindsey Pollak : I think we all did. Right. Bobbi Rebell: My mom definitely had the coupons. And a whole organizer. There was a coupon organizer box.

Lindsey Pollak : Oh yeah. A little box. Bobbi Rebell: And she would organize what she was going to bring that day. And you were waiting for the double coupon day.

Lindsey Pollak : And here we are, talking about personal finances on a podcast. So, the modern day version of that, it used to be called Ebates. Now it's called Rakuten. Rakuten is I have this little widget on my browser and on my phone that tells me that I can get cash back if you shop through Ebates or Rakuten.

Lindsey Pollak : And over the past several years, I've made $2,000 using that little widget to get little discounts on things. And yeah, of course, I look like, "Ooh, that's fine. I can get a little bit more cash back than if I shop at such and such." And it's funny. I always did it. My husband would make fun of me like, "Ooh, you got your $7.53 check today." And then I looked and I saw, wow, over a few years, I've made $2,000 back and that's real money.

Bobbi Rebell: And that was basically on money you were probably going to spend anyway. Now you might've chosen one retailer over another because of it, but still, it's money.

Lindsey Pollak : Target is my favorite one. The Target app I've saved, I think $110. We've been quarantining in Connecticut. And I think I've saved $110 this year, which is only $10 a month, but hey, I used that credit for other good stuff.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, absolutely. So I have in my hand, my early copy. This is one of my favorite perks of doing this podcast. I have an early copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work, which you wrote during quarantine. So, tell us what is different now, both in quarantine and hopefully, very soon as we emerge from quarantine, in terms of how we recalculate our careers and our life?

Lindsey Pollak : The first thing to think about is, recalculating is not one thing that you do in a moment and then it's over. Right. It's not like a fork in the road. I think we all need to be re-skilling, up-skilling pivoting, diversifying all the things that we talked about in my own story.

Lindsey Pollak : What we've learned through COVID is you cannot coast. Right. You can't just say, "Well, I'm comfortable where I am and I'm going to keep moving forward." You probably never could. But I think we all know that now more than ever.

Lindsey Pollak : And a really important piece of that, that I know you're so good at and is important to you, is if you're not getting good at virtual communication, and remote communication, and email, and texting, and Slack, and social media, you are not keeping up with the tools that you need to have to succeed now and into the future. It's no longer a nice to have. It's an absolute must have skill.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes, I am always learning different things. I mean, for example, right now, I started this merch store and I had to learn all this stuff about how to connect it to Instagram and so on. But it's actually really fun and you feel very accomplished. So, technical skills and learning new ways of doing business is very important.

Bobbi Rebell: And on that note, a lot of people have questions about how to use social media differently while we're in this pandemic, because it does become more important when we can't be social in person. Right.

Lindsey Pollak : Absolutely. But I think there are parallels. And so, the parallels are you've got to remember that each social network, if you're looking at it from a professional standpoint, like networking to find a job or new clients. Just like it's different to chat with people at the supermarket than to chat with people at a black tie gala, you have to see the social networks as different. You can't be the same or use the same language and style, or even necessarily profile photo, on Twitter as you would on LinkedIn, or on Instagram, or on Clubhouse, or what have you. So, number one is to acknowledge that they're all different.

Lindsey Pollak : Number two is I think you do use them in the same way you would in-person networking. So, you and I, let's say, may bond on Facebook because you're wearing a cute shirt or I see a cute picture of your son. I'm not going to say, "Do you have a job." Or, "Can I send you my resume?" I'm going to say, "Hey, great photo. Hey, do you want to get together and talk sometime about work stuff?" It's an entry point, just as if I saw you on the sidelines of a soccer game, we would talk about the game. I wouldn't start to launch into my sales pitch.

Lindsey Pollak : So, I think that social media should be seen as these personal moments where you might "bump into somebody." And then you take it to the next level off of that social network to have the professional conversation. LinkedIn is a bit different. I think LinkedIn is like a professional conference where people go, no one's going to be offended if you try to network professionally on LinkedIn. That's the point. It's like being at a conference. But for all the other sites, it's about building and solidifying real, authentic, personal relationships. And then you take the conversation elsewhere after that. Bobbi Rebell: And what do you think about Clubhouse? Because you're very successful on Clubhouse. I love dropping in on the rooms that you're in and the conversations. What's your take and your advice to people on how to use Clubhouse?

Lindsey Pollak : So that's a really good example of like, "I don't know, I'll give it a try. This is a new thing, and I'm going to try it." And I wasn't sure. To me, it's like a mix between listening to the radio and dropping in on a podcast or a webinar. But sometimes you get to talk.

Lindsey Pollak : What's absolutely amazing to me is how much free advice is there. I'm providing it myself. I do a career chat every Wednesday at one o'clock with a bunch of career experts and people just ask their questions. And what's really cool is, not only do we give our thoughts or advice, but other people on the call can raise their hand and say, "Hey, I know somebody." Or, "Oh, I have an idea for you."

Lindsey Pollak : And so, what's happening is like these conference moments in the Clubhouse app. So I'd really encourage people to give it a try. And if it's not for you, it's not for you, but it's just another tool where you might bond. And just funny things like bumping into each other. I was on it yesterday. I went to graduate school in Australia at this school called Monash University, which is just outside of Melbourne. Most people have never heard of it.

Lindsey Pollak : There was a woman on the call who had gone to Monash University and had moved to the United States. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, you're kidding." And we met on Clubhouse. So you just never know what kinds of moments like that can happen wherever you decide to show up, but you have to decide to show up.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely. So, everyone should follow Lindsey on Clubhouse. And also me. I'm on Clubhouse too.

Lindsey Pollak : Yeah. Bobbi Rebell: And I'm still learning the ropes, but I'm having a great time on it too. So, please follow both of us. Your book Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work is going to be available everywhere, March 23rd. Where can people get in touch with you?

Lindsey Pollak : So my website is my name, lindseypollock.com. I'll spell it for you because it's a doozy. L-I-N-D-S-E-Y-P-O-L-L-A-K. I'm the only one in the world who spells it that exact way. And I'd be delighted to connect with anyone there or on social media.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Lindsey Pollak : Thank you, Bobbi. Bobbi Rebell: Here we go. Financial grownup tip number one. Social media is a lot more than social these days. Certainly during the pandemic, depending on your business, it became an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the onesthat fit your business. It's not just about being social. It is about career success and sometimes career survival as well.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two. If you are on social media, don't forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in Clubhouse, raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only, but I do have invites, so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on Clubhouse, Money tips for Grownups. I'd love to connect with you there.

Bobbi Rebell: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a screenshot and share it on social media. And if you tag me, @bobbirebell1, that will also enter you into our book and merch giveaways. I also want to encourage everyone to pre-order a copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work by Lindsey Pollak. It is a bit complicated, but it really helps Lindsey if you pre-order it.

Bobbi Rebell: And this episode is dropping about a week before it's released, so you still have a week to get it done. And it is truly a big deal to Lindsey, so thank you for doing that. I promise you will love it. And big thanks to my friend, Lindsey Pollak, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell: The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell: Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell: While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram, @bobbirebell1, and on Twitter,

@ bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcast. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

The buzz on SPACs keeps building. Bobbi shares what is driving the trend, what a SPAC is, and what investors need to know about them. 

Pros of SPAC

#1: It lowers the risk of going public. Let’s face it: a lot can go wrong. Companies are worried that market volatility could tank their public debut. Merging with a SPAC gets them a capital influx much faster and easier. 

#2: It’s faster. Space have no financial history- so the only track record is the reputation of the management teams. For a company, merging with a SPAC can get them funding in a few months. The traditional IPO route which involves a lot of paperwork with the SEC can take as much as 6 months, sometimes longer. 

#3: More control over valuation. With a SPAC merger, the company can negotiate a fixed valuation with the sponsors. 

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Cons of SPAC

#1: Shady history.  Back in the 1980’s SPAC’s were known as  “Blank Check Companies” The industry was full of fraud, and known for scamming investors. A federal law was even passed to crack down on them. Now there are some guardrails in place- for example, if an investor does not approve of a company that the SPAC is merging with they can get their money back. 

#2: A successful SPAC can be incredibly lucrative for the for the sponsor, to the point where there is a concern that they might merge the SPAC with a less than ideal company just to get their big payday. Oh- and generally they have to make a deal within 2 years- so there’s a ticking clock to make something, sometimes anything, happen. 

#3: Investors should be aware that the company that has gone public by merging with the SPAC has not gone through the vetting process of doing all the financial audits and requirements that happen in a traditional initial public offering. So you have to wonder: what do you not know about the company? In other words, it is easier for the company, but riskier for the investor. 

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FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Financial Grownup Guide: What is a SPAC- and why it is such a hot trend on Wall Street

Hi friends!

If you pay attention to the money and investing related news, which you should be, you have probably been hearing about SPACS- which stands for special purpose acquisition company. They have actually been around for decades-but the buzz has really been building lately. Their rep is that they are last resorts for small companies to go public, because they couldn’t raise money on the open market. But that doesn’t really explain why they are having such a big moment right now. 

So here’s what we are going to go over in this episode:

-What is a SPAC

-Why would a company go public using a SPAC rather than the traditional route?

-What are SPACs so popular now- and what role did the global pandemic play in the trend?

-I'll tell you about the shady history of SPAC's

-What are the risks for investors?

Before we get into it- I do want to welcome everyone. If you are new- this is kind of a special episode. I do these solo episodes on occasion where I talk about a money topic- usually something in the news. 

But most of our episodes focus on having a role model as a guest- a financial grownup as we like to say, sharing a money story that had a big impact on their life and then the lessons we can all learn from their experience. We also have them share everyday money tips that we can put to work right away. If you enjoy this podcast I hope you will take a moment to subscribe, and share it with friends or family that you think might enjoy it. One easy way is just to take a screenshot of the show and share it on social media- and please tag me @bobbirebell1 on instagram so I can thank you. 

Back to SPACs. Let’s first go over exactly what a SPAC is- and is not. 

Think of a SPAC as a shell company set up to buy another company- except it doesn’t necessarily know what that company will be. Usually a team of investors raise the money first- but again- very often without a target company. It goes public as a Special Purpose Acquisition Company but it contains no company. All it has is money kept in a trust. 

Then we have companies that need money- and are on the hunt for the right way to get it. 

So to simplify- on one side we have money with no company, and on the other side we have a company, that it looking for money. 

This is different from the more common way for companies to raise big money in the public markets with a standard initial public offering. But that is really complicated- and expensive. There’s a ton of paperwork, financial audits and regulations. There are road shows, and pitch meetings with institutional investors. And it is super risky. Some of the risks the company can control, but the truth is the depending on what is going on in the world at the time the company wants to go public, a lot of how well that company will do- it can’t control. 

But they have become a really big trend on Wall Street recently. 242 SPACs were introduced in 2020, quadruple the number raised in 2019, according to SPAC Insider. The average size of a SPAC in 2020 was $335 million, that is almost  10 times the amount in 2009.

And there are some interesting reasons why that we are going to talk about. 

Reason #1: It lowers the risk of going public. Let’s face it: a lot can go wrong. Companies are worried that market volatility could tank their public debut. Merging with a SPAC gets them a capital influx much faster and easier. 

Reason #2: It’s faster. Space have no financial history- so the only track record is the reputation of the management teams. For a company, merging with a SPAC can get them funding in a few months. The traditional IPO route which involves a lot of paperwork with the SEC can take as much as 6 months, sometimes longer. 

Reason #3 More control over valuation. With a SPAC merger, the company can negotiate a fixed valuation with the sponsors. 

All this has a lot of appeal during the global pandemic, given how much uncertainty there has been in the global markets. It got a lot harder to raise money the traditional way. So SPAC’s can provide a viable option for capital starved companies to access funding. 

This all sounds great- so what’s the catch?

Well first- their shady history.  Back in the 1980’s SPAC’s were known as  “Blank Check Companies” The industry was full of fraud, and known for scamming investors. A federal law was even passed to crack down on them. Now there are some guardrails in place- for example, if an investor does not approve of a company that the SPAC is merging with they can get their money back. 

Second: A successful SPAC can be incredibly lucrative for the for the sponsor, to the point where there is a concern that they might merge the SPAC with a less than ideal company just to get their big payday. Oh- and generally they have to make a deal within 2 years- so there’s a ticking clock to make something, sometimes anything, happen. 

Third: Investors should be aware that the company that has gone public by merging with the SPAC has not gone through the vetting process of doing all the financial audits and requirements that happen in a traditional initial public offering. So you have to wonder: what do you not know about the company? In other words, it is easier for the company, but riskier for the investor. 

Which brings us to why you should be paying attention to the trend. In my opinion- and this is an opinion, we should look carefully at why a company would choose to go public this way. That does not mean it is not a good investment. It just means, it did not go through the traditional red tape. To be clear, many companies go through the red tape, and no one takes the time to read all the details of what they have disclosed to potential investors. 

That said, once a company is publicly traded, as the calendar mandates, it will have to comply with the laws regarding disclosure. So maybe, if you want to invest in a company that used a SPAC to go public, you might consider taking your time, and getting more information before you jump in. 

Before I let you go- a reminder that I am on a campaign to boost financial literacy by giving out free books. If you want to win a book that has been grownup list approved- all you need to do is either do a screen grab of the podcast while you are listening to it - and post it on instagram and tag me at bobbirebell1- or write a review on apple podcasts and email it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. You could win a book by one of the authors that has been on the show, or some of the merch from the grownupgear store which you can check out at grownupgear.com.

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Are you working harder than ever and not getting paid what you are worth? Claire Wasserman explains why so many of us get short-changed and shares 5 specific strategies that will upsize our income and compensation. Plus, Claire reveals the behind the scenes story of AOC’s decision to run for political office and her role in the gutsy move. 

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Claire’s 5 Tips For How To Get Paid More!

Tip #1-

Talk to real people about their salary. You could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to a real person. Remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Tip #2-

Have three numbers. I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. This is a big problem because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. Oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter. So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there. So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Tip #3-

Talk about the whole picture. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Tip #4-

Talk about your value add. I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but make the case for yourself. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company." If you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. Discounts with vendors? Maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money. That is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees. Have testimonials too. You should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review.

Tip #5-

You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. So how do you address this? You use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." You've said your big number. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together."

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy Tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally, makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

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Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup Guide, five ways to get paid more with Ladies Get Paid's Claire Wasserman.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey, grownup friends. Do you want to make more money? Yeah I thought so, and yeah, me too. The harsh reality is that the pandemic has been brutal, not just for our health, but also, yeah, for our wealth. Because how do you ask for more money from your boss, or how do you raise prices on your customers in a pandemic? I mean, we should be grateful just to have our jobs, just to have our businesses running if that's the case, which is true. That doesn't mean that we don't deserve to get paid more, and that doesn't mean that we can't get paid more. And we should not assume that those who make the decisions can't and aren't willing to pay us more. Right?

Bobbi Rebell: So I was thrilled to get to talk with Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid about her new book aptly titled, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. So, if you are open to making more money, this episode is definitely for you. By the way, no need to take notes. As always, the show notes have a quick summary of the episode, and all the links that you will need, and even a transcript of the entire interview. You just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and click on the Financial Grownup tab to bring you to the podcast section. There's also a search box on the top right if you want to search for this or a past episode.

Bobbi Rebell: Okay, my friends here is Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid.

Bobbi Rebell: Claire Wasserman, welcome to the Financial Grownup Podcast, and congrats on your new book, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career.

Claire Wasserman: Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk more about the book later in the show, but I want to get right into the five ways to get paid more that you brought for us. The first one is about talking to real people. And that sounds easy, but in this age, it can be complicated.

Claire Wasserman: Well, you could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to real people.

Claire Wasserman: Here's the good news, if you are nervous, remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Claire Wasserman: Now, you don't have to ask people specifically, "How much do you make?" Because sometimes that can feel a little uncomfortable. So instead, how about you bring them the research that you've done? "Listen, I'm an art director, five years into my career. I am working for a company that has 10 people." And please note here, I'm talking about context. Context is key. Tell them, "This is the research I did between X and Y. This is the salary. I think I should be getting paid. Am I off base, or, more abstractly, what's the ballpark that you're making?" Just remember, you want to talk to white men also, because they're the ones who are getting paid the most.

Claire Wasserman: And if any of them were trying to figure out how to be allies, which a lot of them are, this is a great way that they can support you. So don't be afraid to even cold email people, find them on LinkedIn, tell them you're trying to figure out your salary and you'd love for them to be an ally. How much do they make? Would they be willing to share, even just a ballpark. The worst thing that can happen is they just don't respond.

Bobbi Rebell: The second tip to get paid more is, "Have three numbers." What does that mean, Claire?

Claire Wasserman: Well, I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. Big problem, big problem, because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. I mean, oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter.

Claire Wasserman: So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there.

Claire Wasserman: So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Bobbi Rebell: Even though you have those three numbers in your head, is it better to try to get them to make the first offer, or is it better for you to throw out the number first?

Claire Wasserman: I have a controversial opinion here, because I think when you do research, a lot of other coaches will tell you, "Never be the first one to say the number, because you might low ball yourself."

Claire Wasserman: If you've done the market research and they're paying in the market research, when you were the first person to say it, you're anchoring high. If they are the first person, they may be anchoring low. And it sometimes can feel a little uncomfortable to say, "Well, that wasn't really what I was thinking," or it might throw you off, maybe even demoralizes you. So start with the number you want, but back it up with the research that you've done. You can even say, "I've spoken to a number of other people," if they ask, "Where did you get this number?"

Claire Wasserman: And you can also say things like, "This is the number, the market research that I found, but what are you proposing?" So it's not like you're ending the conversation with that first number.

Bobbi Rebell: And a lot of employers, though, try to find out what you were making before and anchor to that. How should people handle that? Because it also depends where you live.

Clair Wasserman: Exactly. So some states have passed what's called the Salary History Ban. The thinking behind that is if marginalized groups are getting paid less than other people from the beginning of their career, and every time that they get a raise, if that's always based on that original salary, well then, the gap will compound over time and will never catch up. So you can decline to respond, or you can be abstract, or tell them how much you got paid, but listen, that's not relevant to the ask now.

Claire Wasserman: I mean, even think about this, look at the original job description, write a new one for what you did. You're going to see a lot of changes. You're going to see experiences, growth, maybe totally different work that you ended up taking on. So the salary that was originally given to you was based on what you knew then. Regardless of what this next job is, and the market research, just know for yourself that you have grown by leaps and bounds since that first salary.

Bobbi Rebell: Number three, "You want to talk about the whole picture."

Claire Wasserman: Yes. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability, full compensation. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Claire Wasserman: So I would say, "What are the top one, two and three items for full comp you can bring up?" I would personally bring it up after the salary conversation is over, only because I don't want them to use your full comp ask as leverage to get that salary down. And you want to ask for this, regardless of whether or not it's a pandemic, just be prepared that you may need to ask for more things, more full comp, if a time like now, if they're not saying yes to the salary.

Claire Wasserman: If you're wondering, "Well, Claire, if they don't have the money to give me a salary bump, how are they going to afford to give me a signing bonus, or pay for me to go to a conference?" A lot of times these come from different budgets. I know so many women who were not able to get the salary they wanted, but the signing bonus actually got them to a place where their now annual salary was exactly what they wanted to begin with. And that was simply because different budgets from different departments.

Claire Wasserman: So if you don't ask, a hundred percent, you're not getting. Again, the worst thing that can happen is they say, "No," which in my mind is really a, "Not yet." And then you can continue the conversation later.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that. A "Not yet." Not a "No." Are there benefits that have evolved during the pandemic that people may not be aware of, that they can ask for?

Claire Wasserman: Well, make sure that you're getting cell phone and internet and anything that requires you to do work from home, which by the way, I think most of us are doing, or a lot of us are doing that.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh yeah.

Claire Wasserman: I wonder if it can even be your laptop, paper, pen, I mean, really pretend you're a freelancer, to be honest. Your overhead costs, they should be paying for. If you want to continue flexibility, you've really proven now to them that it is possible. So if this fits for your lifestyle and you want to do a hybrid model, be prepared to ask, and you can make the case, I think, pretty easily.

Bobbi Rebell: Is that something you should ask before you start, or is that something that you should wait? Because traditionally, people often said "Go in 100% and be extremely present. And then once you prove yourself and they know you and they trust you, then you can ask for a hybrid approach." What's your take on that?

Claire Wasserman: Yeah. I mean, if this is a deal breaker for you, then you definitely want to bring this up maybe during the interview, otherwise you're wasting your own time along with theirs. You can also ask open-ended question of, "Do you have a hybrid model? Are there other people doing this? I'm just curious." So you can get a sense from the very beginning of their openness to the conversation.

Claire Wasserman: And then in terms of proving yourself, sure, but just to remember that it's not necessarily all or nothing. You can ask for maybe once or twice a month, or once a week, or something where they can see how this is going to go. And also proactively address all the reasons that they might be hesitant, so you're not just, "Hey, can I work from home?" And letting them tell you, "No, no, no." It's okay if you're concerned about team dynamic or communication, "Here's a way that we can address that." Just making it really easy for them to feel good about saying yes to you.

Bobbi Rebell: Exactly. And make it easy to say yes. The fourth way to get paid more is my favorite. It's about your value add, really.

Claire Wasserman: I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but making the case... So it's you say, "Well, Hey, I want top dollar." "Well, hold on now. You have to prove to me that you're a top performer." You don't get the money, because you deserve it, even though, I know you deserve it. And it's also not about, "Here's the work that I did," because guess what? It was your job. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company."

Claire Wasserman: Now, if you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, well, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. I mean, discounts with vendors, maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money that is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees.

Claire Wasserman: So if you're a part of contributing to the culture of the company, it means as much as if you were able to land a client, but you just have to make the case. Have testimonials too. So through all throughout the year, I mean, first of all, you should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review. I mean, not to put it so... It sounds not great, but that's the same thing. It's like, "Don't just take my word for it. Take Bob's word for it."

Bobbi Rebell: Okay. The fifth way to get paid more, this is something I think is very hard for a lot of women, because you tell them to be assertive, but you also have to have empathy.

Claire Wasserman: You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because we are, this is terrible, but there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating, put others before ourselves, be nice, be good girls, don't disrupt.

Claire Wasserman: Well, hold on now. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. Well, what's the chance that they're going to now look at you like you're aggressive? And women of color, I know you're nodding. This is something that they even more. So how do you address this? Well, you use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." But you've said your big number, I want to be clear. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together." Or, "I know this is a company that pays women equitably." That's actually shaming them a little bit.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that one.

Claire Wasserman: Or, "This is a company that is very fair. I'm sure we can figure this out together." And you can always, at the very end, just say, "Well, what would you do if you were in my shoes?" Bring it around. And do remember that we're all negotiating in this environment. They will, I think, automatically have empathy with you if you have empathy with them.

Bobbi Rebell: I don't want to let you go before we talk a little bit about your book directly. Like I said, it's called Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. What was your favorite chapter?

Claire Wasserman: I don't think I have a favorite chapter. I just have favorite stories. So for those of you listening, if you're not familiar with the book, I structure it by following the lives of nine real women from the Ladies Get Paid community. Each of them is going through a different professional challenge. And as I tell their story, I stop along the way, and I give advice.

Claire Wasserman: A woman who came to the second workshop that I ever organized about getting unstuck in her career, and all the way, for the next year and a half, she wanted to be in some kind of civic engagement role, maybe in politics. And finally, at a town hall that I hosted about reinventing yourself, she stood up and she declared to the whole room, "I have always wanted to run for office, but people who look like me don't run for office." And she was a young Hispanic woman. And this was in front of a room, this is a hundred women. She said, "But I am going to run for office."

Claire Wasserman: And everybody cheered. And I cried. I cried, because I knew her. I knew her since college. We were so excited for her, because of how brave she was. She declared that she was going to do something that she was probably not going to succeed at. She was going to be going against an incumbent who was 20 or 30 years older than her, of course, a white man. And so here she was, saying, "I'm going to do this thing. And the chances that I even seed are so slim." But that was why it was courageous, and that's why we were so moved by her.

Claire Wasserman: Now, of course, a year later, she wins. Then she became the youngest Congresswoman ever. And her name is Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. So that story is my favorite. I guess I just gave away the ending of that story. If that wasn't enough to have you read the book... Well, you'll read the book. I know you all will.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah, the book was amazing. And by the way, it's important to know that even though the title is Ladies Get Paid, there is a lot of general career advice here. It's really powerful. And things that you haven't necessarily heard before are very original strategies that I think will be helpful to everyone.

Bobbi Rebell:My favorite chapter, by the way, was in level up section, you have different sections. I love chapter eight, Get Allies, because I think it's so important to have allies in your corner. As you mentioned, so many jobs are never publicly listed. And so it's important to have people that are looking out for you. And it's not always your direct inner circle. Sometimes it's your acquaintances that can be so valuable in helping your career.

Claire Wasserman: I have never gotten a job that I applied to online. I think I maybe got an interview once. My whole career has come from relationships that I've built over time. They've also been strategic. It's not mutually exclusive to be authentic and have a genuine friendship while also knowing how both of you are going to leverage each other's strengths and connections. And that, again, has been the key, the key to men, the old boys club that exists for a reason. And so we have to create the young girls club. How about that?

Bobbi Rebell: Yes. Well, it's the everyone club, really. And you have to... One of my favorite stories was the last one that you share, which is Madeline, who really investigated and was very upset to find that the men in her company were making multitudes of what she was making. I was a little bit upset by what the ending was, but it was a big lesson.

Claire Wasserman: So that name has been changed.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes.

Claire Wasserman: Her story is in the New Yorker. You can all figure it out.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah.

Claire Wasserman: It is wild. It is even more dramatic than I put in the book, because my editor thought, "Well, the people won't believe this." So you know what? Truth is stranger than fiction, and I'm so honored by her and everybody else who so vulnerably shared their struggles with me. I think it goes a long way to showing folks out there that they're not alone, which is the first step, undo any shame that you have in order to be open to learning and to helping others. We're all going through something. It's so relieving. It's like you just alleviate this weight off of you when you share your story, and I'm just honored that these women did that with me and for you all.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. And thank you for sharing all of those stories. Tell us more about where people can reach you. We know the book is available everywhere. Where can people be in touch with you and Ladies Get Paid?

Claire Wasserman: I would love you all to follow me on Instagram. I'm @ClaireGetsPaid. You can also follow @LadiesGetPaid on Instagram, and join our Slack group. We've got 75,000 women from all over the world. They've exchanged more than two million messages since 2016. So very talkative in there, and it's free. So just join at LadiesGetPaid.com, and we'll add you. And thanks, Bobbi, for having me. I always love an opportunity to share my story, and as you can tell, I like to talk.

Bobbi Rebell: If you loved what Claire had to say as much as I did, I hope you will, first of all, go buy her book. It's great. And I also hope you will take a moment, while you are listening to this podcast, and take a screenshot of it and post it on Instagram Stories or other social media. And if you tag me @BobbiRebell1, that's B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L, and then the number one, you will be entered into our monthly giveaways. You can win books by our authors that are on the podcast, as well as merch from our new Grownup Gear store. You can see the merch, by the way, right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. You'll see it says shop grownup gear.

Bobbi Rebell: Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of the Financial Grownup podcast. So grateful for Claire Wasserman for helping us all learn to get paid like financial grownups. Bye, everyone.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Jessica Zweig leads the thriving personal branding business: Simply Be. But the author of the new book "Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself” only got to this point in her life because she was able to exit a toxic business relationship that brought her personally and financially to rock bottom. Plus she shares an everyday money tip that will help us reach our goals during the pandemic, no matter what obstacles we are facing. 

Jessica’s Money Story:

My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had 100,000 local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship." And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth. It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch.

Jessica’s Money Lesson:

Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page.

Jessica’s Money Tip:

So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Bobbi’s Take:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships, and used the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. - This past week the dating app Bumble went public. Its founder,  Whitney Wolfe Herd started Bumble in 2014..  after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder, where she was a co-founder- after a breakup with another co-founder. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and is worth over a billion dollars. 

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

So many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic- in part because it feels like no one is watching. I mean after all. We can and do literally work in our pajamas. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time. Get an accountability partner. Get someone who will be committed to you- and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren’t doing that- break up fast and find another accountability partner. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy, but this more quiet time will come to an end, and the opportunity to get to your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste. 

Get your copy of Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself.

Follow Jessica!

• Twitter - @jessica_zweig

• Instagram - @jessicazweig

• Jessica’s website - www.jessicazweig.com

• Facebook - Jessica Zweig

• LinkedIn - Jessica Zweig

Follow Bobbi!

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Merch - grownupgear.com

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys, are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy t-shirts and we need to give ourselves an upgraded but still super comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

Bobbi Rebell: I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick me ups to to let them know it's all good and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost grownup friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales follow us on Instagram at our new handle at @GrownupGear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear you help support this free podcast.

Bobbi Rebell: The debt and the brokeness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would've if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We've got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Financial Grownup Podcast. We share money stories here that had big impacts on our guests lives and of course then they share with us the lessons from them. I'm your host Bobbi Rebell, Journalist, Certified Financial Planner and author of the book How To Be a Financial Grownup. If you're new here welcome. I'm so glad you found us.

Bobbi Rebell: So that clip that you heard at the top of the show was from author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig. Jessica has a new book out called Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. I have to say I love that title. The thing about Jessica is that if you don't know her you would never know all the things that she has had to overcome to well be where she is now that included a toxic business relationship that lasted for seven years. The breakup left her with nothing hitting rock bottom at age 33, even having to ask her parents for money just to pay her phone bill. Just when we think we will be hitting our grownup stride you never know what's going to hit us. There is a lot to learn from this remarkable woman and she does not hold back in this interview. Here is Jessica Zweig.

Bobbi Rebell: Jessica Zweig, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me Bobbi. I'm pumped to be here.

Bobbi Rebell: Well, I am pumped to have you here. Your book Be, I'm holding it up by the way, Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself is about to come out and it's your first book. Congratulations.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much. You know how much goes into it so thank you for saying that.

Bobbi Rebell: I really enjoyed learning so much about you and what you teach people in the book. What's interesting is you come across as having it all together which you do now I'm going to say but it wasn't always the case. You brought with us a money story that is sadly something many of us can relate to but often don't know what to do with, I should say that often don't know what to do about, and that is finding ourselves in toxic relationships personally and in business in work environments. Tell us your money story Jessica.

Jessica Zweig: My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had a hundred thousand local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship."

Jessica Zweig: And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth.

Jessica Zweig: It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch. Bobbi Rebell: When you look back were there red flags that you should have spotted in the relationship, in the business in terms of the skills that you both brought?

Jessica Zweig: From day one. I mean, there were massive red flags. I think I realized three months in just how different we were but we were young and we were so naive and we both really loved this business. This magazine Cheeky was our baby. And so I didn't want to give it up and she didn't want to give it up and at the core there was a magic connection with us. We wouldn't have created what we created if there wasn't that synergistic spark. And we both loved each other to a degree which was what made it so difficult.

Jessica Zweig: But there were red flags and it was honestly one of the most toxic relationships of my life. I mean, we were together for seven years and we were water and vinegar. We were just totally different people. And I'm not saying I was better or she was worse, we were just different. I've come to so much peace and love and honestly forgiveness for myself first in the way that I showed up in that relationship as much as her and how she showed up in the relationship which I think has really been a huge key to me soaring in the last few years because I really did my own work.

Jessica Zweig: I think it's so easy to point fingers at people when they burn us or they hurt us or they come after us. There's that expression when you point one finger at someone, I mean do it, you're pointing three back at yourself. So you really do have to look at yourself in any sort of situation but when it comes to money it's especially loaded and I could still be angry, I could still be bitter, I could still be resentful. I don't feel any of those feelings. And it was the greatest learning lesson of my life. I applied all of those mistakes, all of those failures to simply be and simply be is so successful and it wouldn't have been unless I had that seven year chapter and run of making all of those mistakes.

Jessica Zweig: So, I think that everything happens for a reason and I feel like the debt and the brokenness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would have if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. So, everything happens for a reason and divine order. It's happening for you not to you even though it can really feel the opposite in the moment. I wouldn't be who I am without that business and that failure.

Bobbi Rebell: Can you me a specific example of something that happened that highlighted your differences? It doesn't have to be your biggest fight or something but something especially money related that you just never agreed on.

Jessica Zweig:I think we were both pretty irresponsible with the way we spent the business's money. I really wanted to grow it and scale it and exit. I wanted to be that type of entrepreneur and she wanted it to be a more lifestyle business. If you're going to go into business with anyone whether it's a business partner or someone on your team or your leadership team to really understand those nuances and get everyone on the same page. Because it sets the foundation for the type of business and the rate in which you want to grow and how you want to operate and who you want to do business with so, so much. And we just didn't have the skills. We were so young. We didn't have the tools to talk about money and business at that level. We were green as grass. So, of course it netted out the way that we netted out. And we also were really done when we opened up our credit cards. She was the personal guarantor on the credit cards. It was just mistake, after mistake, after mistake.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. I love that you're talking about the fact that it is so hard to talk about money and it sounds like you guys didn't have a lot of talks about money and how you were going to structure your firm and how you were going to fund it before you started it. What is the lesson for our listeners as we put it all in context?

Jessica Zweig: Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken and I think actually way, way up and make the right decision to partner with the right people in the first place. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page. And yet money makes people funny no matter what and so you really have to recognize that in yourself and in the others and bring as much consciousness and integrity to those kinds of negotiations, conversations, whatnot.

Bobbi Rebell: I could talk to you forever about this but I want to get your everyday money tip because it's something that I am already implementing for 2021 and that is having accountability, having an accountability partner. Talk about that.

Jessica Zweig: Yeah. So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Jessica Zweig: And so, I brought in my husband who is a financial advisor, as well as you are. And his business had kind of slowed down, he couldn't go out and network, we were quarantining. And he's like, "Jess, I'll help you with the PPP." He took one look at my finance team and was like, "Dude, I can do this better." And so I fired my finance team and I hired my husband. And my husband and I have always obviously been partners and accountable to each other because we're married but bringing him into my business...

Jessica Zweig: He's now my CFO, he helps me run the shop, saving money, ensuring that our P and L's are always balanced, making sure we're net profitable. Having someone that I trust, obviously I trust no one more than my own husband but he has really allowed me to fly as the CEO because I know that he's got things covered. And we operate like a legit finance CFO to CEO. We take weekly meetings. He has an agenda. We run through every money in money out, hiring, investments, savings. We don't have any debt in our business. It's a really powerful person, obviously it's my own husband. But if you can have someone to pulse check you, to support you, to believe in you, to honestly be able to see the forest from the trees more than you can in your own project or business or money endeavor that is so key.

Jessica Zweig: And then another thing that I have done that has really allowed me to get out of debt and save money and feel really, really peaceful and abundant and my husband has helped me with this is we've set up an account. I call it my island account and it's a bank account we can only put money in. And if I needed to take money out I'd have to drive all the way across town in the worst hours, whatever. It's my island account. I can only send money to it, it can only grow. And I'm stacking my cheddar as my accountant once told me and my husband helps me ensure that money is being sent to that account every single month and that we're totally able to send that level of money over to that account and that's really grown our savings. My husband and I sleep well at night because of it.

Jessica Zweig: And so those are the key hacks that having my husband and having that account has changed honestly my financial wellbeing more than my finances but more of my financial wellbeing, which I think is key to vibrating at that level of abundance and attracting more.

Bobbi Rebell: That's such great advice. There's also a lot more great advice and I'm picking up your book now even though I know we're on audio and your book, okay I'm going to read the title Be, with a period, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. And I love the yellow cover. Yellow became one of your themes in the book so it transcends so much about you and your sunny personality. Tell us briefly about the book.

Jessica Zweig: So the book is a personal branding book. It's going to walk you through my trademark methodology of how to build your platform, the platform of you. Whether you work for yourself, or you work for someone else, or you want to one day work for yourself, having an understanding of what makes you you is an invaluable asset that you can take with you no matter what your job title is. That's number one. It's going to teach you tactically step-by-step how to do that from messaging, to strategy, to content, to social media, to PR.

Jessica Zweig: However, it is a personal empowerment book in fact disguised as a business book. Because I think at the core most people feel afraid to do that and to put themselves out there. And I say that my book is the permission slip and the reminder that you are worthy to be seen and to shine and to have everything you ever want. And it's my own journey in fact as well and my uncovering that truth for myself. And so, I'm right along with you throughout the whole book and you're going to take away so much tactical knowledge but at the end of the day I hope it inspires people to stop playing small and stop apologizing for their authentic amazingness. And that's what my book Be is about.

Bobbi Rebell: One of the recommendations in the book is to keep your social media and all of your public identifying names, et cetera, very consistent. So let's end with you telling us where people can find you on all of the social media because I know you keep it easy.

Jessica Zweig: I walk the talk as I say I drink my own Kool-Aid. So yes I am at Jessica Zweig on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, jessicazweig.com. You can also go to simplybeagency.com which is my company's website and find me. I'm really, really, really easy to find. I'm out there. So please come and say hi.

Bobbi Rebell: Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me. This was amazing.

Bobbi Rebell: Here we go my friends Financial Grownup tip number one, some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships like Jessica, and like Jessica they use the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. This past week the dating app Bumble went public and its founder Whitney Wolfe-Herd started Bumble in 2014 after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder where she was a co-founder after a breakup with another co-founder. And she's talked about it a lot, it was a toxic relationship for sure. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and worth over a billion dollars. What a great story.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup tip number two, so many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic in part because it feels like no one's watching. I mean, after all we can and do literally work in our pajamas, certainly the off-camera part. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time, get an accountability partner like Jessica. Get someone who will be committed to you and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren't doing that well break up fast and find another accountability partner who's a better fit. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy but this more quiet time will come to an end and the opportunity to get your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste.

Bobbi Rebell: One way to get motivated, get out of those PJ's. Realistically, I know we aren't getting dressed up but have some fun with your pandemic wardrobe. That's what I know I needed when I came up with a concept for Grownup Gear it is all about celebrating wherever we are in our journey to being grown ups which never really ends let's be honest. Check out the designs on my website, bobbirebell.com. Click on shop or just go directly to grownupgear.com. And please be in touch. DM me what you want more of on this podcast. I love your feedback. I put discount codes for Grownup Gear on my Instagram, which by the way is Bobbi Rebell one. And we did just start a Grownup Gear Instagram. We don't have a lot of followers so please come check it out. That's at @GrownupGear on Instagram.

Bobbi Rebell: So big thanks to Jessica Zweig, author of Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing You Self-Worth and Your Net Worth By Simply Being Yourself. Everyone check out the book and thanks again to Jessica for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Gamestop's meteoric rise and fall, and the roles Reddit, Hedge Funds, and Robinhood played in it, have many lessons for financial grownups. Bobbi explains what happened, and reveals what new data is showing that many news reports initially got wrong. 

In this episode, you will learn:

-What actually happened?

- Why did Gamestop stock surge?

-How does short selling work?

-What goes on in the online forums (like reddit’s Wall Street Bets)?

-What is a short squeeze?

-How FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) played into things.

-Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

-Who got hurt and why?

-What did we learn from this?

Takeaways:

#1 - While everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

#2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

#3 -Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

This is going to be a special solo episode and we are going to talk about the Gamestop phenemonon that happened recently that has gotten a lot of you interested in how the stock market works, how the companies that hold the money you invest in stocks work, and most of all, how you can make money by buying stocks. 

Here on the financial grownups podcast we normally share money stories that impacted our lives and the lessons from them, or tips and tricks to improve your financial situation but today we’re breaking format because what happened recently with Gamestop, and a few other stocks, and Robinhood and some other brokerage firms really changed the game for a lot of people. 

Here’s what we are going to cover:

What actually happened- why did Gamestop (which is a company that wasn’t doing well). suddenly have a surging stock?

How does short selling work?

What goes on in the online forums, like reddit’s Wall Street Bets?

What is a short squeeze?

FOMO- fear of missing out- how that played into things…

Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

Who got hurt and why?

What did we learn?

So let’s start with what happened. Gamestop’s actual business, which is primarily selling video games in brick and mortar retail stores, was not doing well. So a lot of professional investors, including hedge funds, were betting against it, doing something called short selling. And by the way- this happened recently with a few stocks but we’re just going to talk about Gamestop here. 

What is short selling. Essentially- the investor goes to the broker and borrows the stock. They turn around and sell that stock to someone else. So they don’t have the stock, but they do have to return it to the broker. The goal is for the stock to go down between the time they sold it to someone else, and the time they have to buy it back, to return it back to the broker who lent it to them. Short selling is super risky because if the stock goes up- it absolutely has to be bought to give back to the broker. Since there is no limit to how high a stock can go, there is no limit to how much the short seller can lose. In other words- don’t go there unless you really know what you are doing. 

While this was happening, the stock started getting talked about on reddit, in particular on a page called Wall Street bets. They noticed that the stock was heavily shorted- and that there was a big change at Gamestop- some new members of the board. One in particular, Chewy Co-founder Ryan Cohen got noticed because he had a lot of digital experience- something Gamestop really needed. That combination got the Wall Street Bets folks to pile into the stock and cause it to rally. 

Next topic: The short Squeeze. Remember all those Wall Street professionals that had shorted the stock? As the stock rose, they were seeing that the price to re-buy the stock they had shorted was skyrocketing and they had to cover their bets.. by buying the stock… which set in motion this seemingly accelerating rise in Gamestop stock-

Then came the FOMO- fear of missing out. As news reports of this were coming out, more and more people wanted in on the action, and things started to get out of hand. Plus the whole thing took on a larger meaning because of media reports that  all these little guys banding together- there were more than 5 million folks on that reddit page- and the word was they were beating these big professional hedge funds. Everyone was talking about it. 

Now let’s talk about the brokerage firms and one in particular that gets a lot of attention: Robinhood. Amateur investors can go on Robinhood and trade for free. Robinhood has had it’s share of controversy in the past, but that’s a whole other podcast. In this case, Robinhood started to get worried- and, citing extreme volatility stopped allowing it’s customers to buy the stock- though they could still sell it. So keep in mind, Robinhood’s customers are generally individuals. The professional investors who were not dependent on Robinhood could keep buying and selling. The optics were not good. Some people thought they were doing it to protect the Wall Street pro’s from losing too much money. Politicians cried foul, and people lawyered up. 

As the dust settles - there is another dramatic twist. University of Chicago law professor Todd Henderson, says the pros saw what was happening and basically piggy backed on the little guys. 

He studied the data from that time. And while there was a burst of retail activity-  he says in a cnbc piece- eventually it was actually the big guys- against the other big guys. According to Henderson, hedge funds purchased stock and held it. This created fewer shares for short sellers to borrow in the market, and that squeezed the number of possible shares available to be loaned, making it harder for short sellers to bet against the stock. The desperate short-sellers needed to find new shares to borrow but supply got constricted.. If you are not following at this point- that’s kind of the point. It’s complicated. And it is not for amateurs. 

And that brings us to who got hurt and why. So yes, hedge funds and one in particular got hurt. As I write this, Gamestop’s gains have almost all disappeared, so a lot of people who bought it will likely sell it for a big loss. And they probably won’t talk about it. Especially with all the bragging going on about how much their friends and family made on the rise up- assuming they sold it at a profit. FOMO can cost you. 

So finally - what are the lessons to take away from all this?

Lesson #1 - while everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

Lesson #2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

Lesson #3 Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

As for my take, it’s never a good feeling to know that many well meaning people took risks they didn’t understand and lost money, I am glad that this got so many non-investors interested in learning more about the stock market. And even though that interest was motivated by momentum driven trading, my hope is that eventually that will evolve into learning about thoughtful, intentional and strategic investing, that will help all of us reach out grownup financial goals. 

Thanks everyone for joining me- for more money tips and advice- plus lots of giveaways please go to my website bobbirebell.com and sign up for the grownup list. 

I love bringing you this podcast and it is and always will be free to you but there are a number of ways that you can support the show if you enjoy it. 

Number one- tell a friend about it. 

Number two- take a screenshot and share on social media

Number three- write a review on apple podcasts

And finally- do a little responsible shopping on my grownupgear.com website. It’s got t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags and more- all tied to being grownups. The products make great gifts, for friends, family and co-workers, and even for yourself. 

Thanks everyone, for joining me and for being financial grownups. 

Follow Bobbi!

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Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

When Jessica Goodman landed a book deal, and later a TV deal for her debut novel “They Wish They Were us” many people though she would go full time on her side-hustle. But Goodman says that was never the plan, and explains why and how she blends the finances and demands of her two dream jobs.

In Jessica’s Money Story she shares:

-How she started writing her e first book, “They Wish They Were Us.”after having the idea for years.

-How she researched what is involved in selling a book to a publisher, including getting an agent

-How she kept her employer, Cosmopolitan Magazine informed and supportive of her book writing side hustle

-How an advance works for an author, including the tax implications

-What she wishes she knew about being an author and how much they are paid before she wrote and sold the book

-How she was able to adapt her schedule to both her full time job at Cosmopolitan Magazine, and writing books

-What you need to know about how a full time job works compared to being a self-employed author, including quarterly taxes

-When you should think about bringing in an accountant.

In Jessica’s Money Lesson you will learn:

-Why and how you should re-evaluate the way you think about money

-The best strategies to manage money when you are paid inconsistently in chunks

-How she and her partner adapted their spending during the pandemic

-How to resist it when people who care about you give you bad financial advice

Jessica’s Money Tip:

-Even if you live in a small space it can pay to buy in bulk during quarantine (and maybe after!)

-Think of non-traditional items that you would not have used as much at home- like buying wine by the case

-Tips about ordering groceries online including having the heaviest items delivered

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. If you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Get a system going and understand that you might miss out on things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Episode Links:

• Jessica’s website - https://www.goodmanjessica.com/

• Buy They Wish They Were Us

• Pre-Order They’ll Never Catch Us

Follow Jessica!

• Instagram - @jessicagoodman

• Twitter - @jessgood

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

  
  Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Full transcript of show:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees. Much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Jessica Goodman:

When I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. You publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey friends, do you have a passion project or a side hustle? One you dream of doing full time one day and maybe getting to ditch that day job? Well, Cosmopolitan's Jessica Goodman had a passion project that she was quietly working on for years. And that was to be an author. Her debut novel, a murder mystery set in an elite private school called They Wish They Were Us ended up being such a hit that it is now being made into a TV series, starring Halsey and Euphoria's Sydney Sweeney. Fast-forward and Jessica has now scored a book for a second novel that is already coming out this summer. So all systems go on the dream career, right? Well, not so fast. To the surprise of quite a few people in her life, rather than ditch, she doubled down, staying on a Cosmopolitan magazine where she is currently the op-ed editor.

Bobbi Rebell:

In our interview, Jessica shares why she is sticking with the day job, goes through exactly how she manages her time and gets candid about what she wishes she knew about before diving into the book business, including, well, a lot of tech stuff. For those of you new to the Financial Grownup Podcast, welcome. I'm so glad that you are here. We talk with financial grownups here about money stories that impacted their lives and the lessons learned from those stories. We also ask them to bring along an everyday money tip that we can put to work right away. Spoiler alert. Jessica's has to do with how she and her partner buy their wine. So stay tuned for her tip on that. And with that, let's get to this week's interview. Here is Cosmo op-ed editor and author of They Wish They Were Us, Jessica Goodman.

Bobbi Rebell:

Jessica Goodman, I'm so excited to finally have you on the show. You are definitely a financial grownup. Welcome.

Jessica Goodman:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

And happy 2021, a year when your second, soon to be bestseller is going to be released. Before we get into your money story, tell us a little bit about each of your books just briefly.

Jessica Goodman:

So my first book, They Wish They Were Us came out in August and it is a young adult thriller that follows a high school senior, Jill Newman, who is in a very exclusive society within her Long Island prep school. And at the beginning of the book, she is reflecting on the fact that her best friend died when she was a freshman and she was also part of this society. And soon after the book begins, she starts getting text messages that say that her best friend Shayla didn't die the way that everybody thinks she did. And so what follows is kind of a whodunit, murder mystery set in this very exclusive prep school. And it's really an exploration of privilege and friendship and peer pressure. And I kind of like to say that it's like Gossip Girl meets Pretty Little Liars, meets A Secret History. It's really fun. And it's being adapted into a TV series, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey. So if those people are on your brain, I think you might enjoy.

Jessica Goodman:

And then I also have a new book coming out this summer. It's called, They'll Never Catch Us. It's currently available for pre-order wherever books are sold. And it is also a young adult thriller about two super competitive sisters who run cross country. And they're both trying to be the best on their team and in the state. And they threaten to kind of lose the number one and two spots when a new girl comes to town. And then soon after she arrives, she also disappears. And everybody in the town begins to suspect that the sisters had something to do with it. So that's where my brain has been for the past couple of months, which is really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is really exciting. What's amazing to me, and I think our listeners will really enjoy hearing about this is while you are doing this, this is actually really a side hustle to your primary job. You have been in a number of different positions at Cosmopolitan magazine. You're currently the op-ed editor. Did I get that right?

Jessica Goodman:

You did. And I'm very impressed that you didn't trip up over the ed editor because I always do when I say it out loud and I have to be like, oh wait, no, this is my job.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is your job now, you are still working there with one book out, another one on the way. So for your money story, I've asked you to kind of talk about how that happened, especially the money-related decisions that you had to make along the way to make this happen. Having a very full-time job at Cosmo. And then on the side, writing this book. It was a lot of choices you had to make I would say. Tell us your money story.

Jessica Goodman:

Definitely. Yeah, so many choices along the way. When I started writing the first book, They Wish They Were Us. And I really started writing it in earnest after having kind of dabbled with it for many years. In earnest, I started working on it in like 2015, 2016. I would say. I didn't get to the point where I thought I could actually sell it and be a professional author until maybe like 2018. And that's when I got connected with my agent and we started working towards being able to sell it. But I did a lot of research into how one becomes an author. I was literally Googling like, how do you publish a book? Like, how do you find an agent? Like what is a book advance? Like all of these kinds of really basic questions that I just had no idea what it was all about.

Jessica Goodman:

And I basically found out that it's really, really, really difficult to publish and sell a book. And that be your sole income or your sole career, like one book basically. And so it was never really an option for me to quit my ... Like I never thought about quitting my jobs in journalism while I was trying to sell the book. So it was always just like, how can I make both of these dreams come true at the same time? And so we sold the book, They Wish They Were Us, in the fall of 2018. And we got an advance, which is what they call the income that you make from selling your book. And publishers usually split it up into a few big chunks. For mine, it was like, I got a chunk of money when I signed the contract, a chunk of money when I turned in the book and then a chunk of money when the book came out. And when, at least when I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. It's like you publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case. And it's certainly like a fantastic thing to have of course, but it's not the kind of financial gains that I originally thought it would be. And I think that a lot of people think about when they think of like someone getting a book advance. Like I said, it was always like a no-brainer that I would keep my job, but I really had to learn how to prioritize both jobs to be able to do them well. So my schedule when I'm being my best self is that I write in the morning before work, usually from seven to nine. And then I do my job from ten to whenever. And then I write on the weekends as well. It's certainly hard at some points, especially at my job at Cosmo, I cover the news, especially like elections and special elections and anything relating to, like having to do with politics. So obviously this past year was hard to balance everything.

Bobbi Rebell:

Were you open with your bosses about these efforts, or was it something you kept private?

Jessica Goodman:

When the book deal actually happened, I went in and told my boss, hey, I just want to give you a heads up that like this happened and it's not going to affect the work that I do here. Like, I really wanted to make sure that they knew that I wasn't about to quit basically, that I was just like, this is just something that I'm doing for myself and my personal dreams. But like, it's not going to affect my work or my productivity here. And I just wanted to give you like a courtesy heads up basically. And everybody was really supportive and they have been really supportive of the book. And so it's been lovely honestly, but I definitely have heard some horror stories at other companies. But I think when you work in a field that's somewhat like adjacent to whatever your side hustle is, it does make it a little bit easier for people to understand why you might be doing something or how it won't interfere with your responsibilities.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you wish you knew in terms of the book business and the financial aspects of it? What do you wish you knew ahead of time? You mentioned that you get the bulk payments and you kind of had this idea as a child that authors become millionaires.

Jessica Goodman:

Yeah, I think something that I definitely wish that I knew was like taxes. Like I think if you're like me and you've really only had a job that you get a salary and benefits from your employer, it's really difficult to self-manage money that comes in chunks, whether you're a freelance writer or you're your own boss and you're not part of like a company. I think it's really difficult to know things like, oh, I have to pay quarterly taxes on this income. Or like, oh, I don't know how much money to put aside from this advanced check that I got, because that advance doesn't reflect the taxes I need to pay on it. So I ended up working with an accountant because I had no idea how to navigate this on my own. And I wanted to make sure that I was doing everything by the book.

Jessica Goodman:

And I wasn't going to get dinged at the end of the fiscal year because I have heard horror stories of people getting, like a $100,000 of their advance, spending it, and then not realizing that they needed to pay however many tens of thousands of dollars of taxes on that. And like, oh my God, what a nightmare. Or even realizing that I had to pay quarterly taxes on like freelance income was the real shock to me. So I got an accountant kind of like late in the game, I would say. And I wish I had got one, like even before the first check came in to like really help me navigate that.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson for our listeners, from this story? What's your advice to people thinking about whether it's writing a novel or any kind of side hustle where they're going to have to hold on to their job?

Jessica Goodman:

I think for me, it was really reevaluating the way that I thought about money. Like I think after having been in jobs where like I got a salary check every other week. That was like, okay, like I know what my monthly expenses are. I know how much my rent is. I know how much my utilities are. Like, I know how much I spend on groceries. Like all that stuff that they tell you. And I knew how to manage that money. Like I knew how much I might be able to save, how much I would need to pay my credit card bill, like all this stuff. But when you get these like big chunks of money, or even just smaller chunks of money from like freelance gigs or whatever, I think it can feel really tempting to just kind of spend it immediately. Even if you're the type of person who is really invested in saving and planning for your future, I think it's hard to conceptualize like how much money you might need for stuff. And especially this year, when I wasn't interested in spending a lot of money at all, based on the kind of times we're in, I splurged on a few things and those things I was thinking about them before we hopped on the call. Those are the things that I really splurged on this year where I turned 30 and I bought myself $80 worth of oysters that were shipped from Cape Cod and an oyster shucker. And that's how I spent my 30th birthday with my partner. We shucked like 50 oysters and save the additional, however many for the next day. And it was such a treat and it was so much fun and something that I'll remember forever. And I bought myself a $90 tie dyed sweatsuit because I am a millennial and on Instagram and it just looked really cozy. And those were like my two big splurges of the year.

Jessica Goodman:

And I know a lot of people, when they get like a book advancer or kind of achieve these really big milestones, they're like, I'm going to buy myself a really expensive piece of jewelry or a fancy handbag, or even like house or whatever. And I mean, I think all of those things are fantastic, but for me, the lesson for me, the lesson here was like, all right, I don't really have anything that I'm ready to splurge on that big right now. I really want to like, save all of this money as much as I can. And those are the things I'm going to splurge on, like oysters and a tie dyed sweatsuit. And knowing that like my big splurge might come later. Like I am saving up to buy a house with my partner. And I think that like my book advance will of course go towards that.

Jessica Goodman:

But realizing that like, I didn't need to spend it all right away I think was a huge revelation, especially because so many people were like, what are you going to treat yourself to? Like your book just came out, like, what are you going to do to mark the occasion? And I didn't really do that much because it just didn't feel right for me. Those were my splurges.

Bobbi Rebell:

I love it. I love the idea of oysters. So tell us your everyday money tip.

Jessica Goodman:

Oh yes. Okay. So this is one that I really got to be obsessed with during the pandemic. Like I am not the type of person that should or would traditionally buy in bulk. Like I live with one other person. We live in a one bedroom apartment. It's very small. We don't have a lot of storage space, but this year I became the kind of person that buys in bulk. Obviously, so many people are doing this during the pandemic, but I don't think I really realized how much you actually save when you buy in bulk and you know what you're going to use in those bulk quantities. And I think the pandemic has really shown people like what they actually use and what is actually important to them. And so for us, like there were a few things that really changed the way I thought about this. One was I started doing like subscribe and save Amazon paper towels and toilet paper. And actually I had done this pre run out of toilet paper in like March moment. So I pat myself on the back for knowing that would be a thing.

Jessica Goodman:

But I think I did the math recently. And it was like if I were to buy a few rolls every time I went to the grocery store, I would spend nearly twice the amount that I do just doing subscribe and save and having them shipped directly to my house. And even though they just sit in boxes in like a corner of our apartment. Because again, small one bedroom apartment, I think it's like totally worth it for us. And the other way that I found this to be really useful was we started buying our wine in cases, which a year ago I would have said like, are you okay? Like what's going on here?

Jessica Goodman:

But my local wine shop, they started offering a 15% discount if you bought a case of wine. And so we basically did the math and we were like, well, we'd be losing money if we didn't do this. And we don't go through them that quickly. I mean, it's no brainer how much money you save. We started looking for ways that you could buy in bulk and save like that. Like the fancy coffee shop near us. If you buy beans in bulk, it's like the same thing. And all these companies now do like subscribe and save membership things, like there's so many coffee ones where like every week they'll send you a bag of beans or whatever. And I think like looking for those has really been super helpful for us and certainly cut down on how we spend.

Jessica Goodman:

The other thing about like this buying in bulk grocery shopping thing is I heard this tip from Carla Lalli Music who used to work at Bon Appetit and now is she's like a chef home cook person on Instagram and has like a fantastic cookbook. But her big tip was always like, if you're ordering groceries, like order all the heavy stuff that's going to be delivered to your apartment. So you don't have to carry stuff, especially in an apartment. And that has been so helpful to me too, where it's like, every time I do like a big shop online or Instacart or Whole Foods or whatever, I get like 10 cans of beans, because like, I don't want to carry that. Or like four jugs of olive oil or like four twelve packs of seltzer because yes, you're buying in bulk. And sometimes you can get discounts that way, but also like who wants to carry that stuff home?

Bobbi Rebell:

Definitely good to always make your life easier. Especially if you are paying those fees to have it delivered. You want to get the most out of that delivery fee. Jessica, thank you so much for being with us, tell us where people can find out more about you. We know your books are available everywhere. We don't know when is the TV series coming.

Jessica Goodman:

TBD on the TV series, but you can stay up to date with all of that info on my Instagram, which is @JessicaGoodman or Twitter @JessGood. And I also have a website goodmanjessica.com. Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. My friends let's do this. Financial Grownup tip number one, Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. And by the way, if you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.Financial Grownup tip number two, get a system going and understand that you might miss things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Bobbi Rebell:

I had so much fun talking with Jessica and her book was really, really a page turner. As I mentioned, it is a murder mystery. And for the record, I really was totally fooled. I didn't see the twists and turns coming. One thing that I've really loved during our forced stayed home time during this pandemic has been catching up on reading fiction and really getting lost in books. We're going to be giving away a few signed copies of Jessica's book to that end so please make sure you are on the Grownup list ASAP so you don't miss that. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you can sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell:

Now while you are there, please check out my big project that I have been working on. I am so excited to see what you guys think. It is the new Grownup Gear Shop. It's a passion project of mine, and I hope you guys will all support it. Podcasts listeners can get 10% off if you use the code “Jessica” within one week of this episode dropping. So just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you'll see the word shop, click on there. Check it out. I hope you guys like it. Big thanks to author Jessica Goodman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Author Ron Lieber returns to the Financial Grownup podcast to preview his new book "The Price You Pay for College”and share tips on the best ways to control college costs, including debunking some big myths about why college is so expensive and who gets how much aid, and why. 

Tip #1:

There is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called Merit Aid. Rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can. Figure out whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes. You have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Tip #2

You can appeal the financial aid package you receive from these colleges. The need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. You may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need-based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid. That's going to give you the best chance of success.

Tip #3

Save the “right” way. There's this idea out there that you need to make a choice between saving for your retirement and saving for college for your kids. You can do both. Borrowing for college may not be for some families. This idea also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time. The financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Tip #4

You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children. We do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. You don't get, make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old. So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Tip #5

What we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, our spouses, or even our exes. We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt. The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us. We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Full Transcript of Episode:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works.

Bobbi Rebell:

You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit, split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com. Financial grownup guide, five things you can control about the price you pay for college with author Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of, 'How To Be a Financial Grownup.' But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hello, my friends, for all our talk about budgeting, spending, penny pinching in some cases, looking at the prices of everything we buy. Most of us, our parents, our children, friends, we buy one really big ticket item that we shop for without actually getting to see the real price that we will pay. I am of course, talking about college. And while yes, we can see the full retail price on many university's websites, the majority of us actually, aren't going to pay that price.

Bobbi Rebell:

In fact, I learned in Ron Lieber's new book, "The Price You Pay for College" that only 11% pay that price. So then the question is how much of a discount can we get, and how is that decided? Welcome everyone here on the Financial Grownup podcast, we talk about money issues that matter to us as we move through adulthood and college certainly qualifies.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber, the New York Times Your Money Columnist, who was first on the podcast in 2018, talking about how he got into school is now back to give us a peek at his very grownup book, "The Price You Pay for College," an entirely new roadmap for the biggest financial decision your family will ever make. Yeah, that's the truth. Like so much of our lives these days, there are lot of things that we can't control. So I asked Ron to tell us what we can control, and he did a little myth-busting along the way. Here is Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber welcome back to the podcast and congratulations on your new book, "The Price You Pay for College."

Ron Lieber:
It's great to be back. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

What inspired this book before we get into your tips about the things that we can control about the price that we all pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, this book is both personal and professional. It's personal because, I have a 15 year-old ninth grader and a five-year-old kindergartener. I live in New York city with extremely high costs and it's a two journalist household. So we're not exactly rolling at it. So this is going to be hard for our daughters to have the same kinds of choices that my wife and I had albeit for me with a whole bunch of need-based financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

So it's personal, but it's also professional because readers kept getting in touch and expressing marvel, but also alarm at the fact that the rack rate for the most expensive colleges in the country had passed $300,000 for four years and even the flagship state universities.

Ron Lieber:

Many of them are now more than a hundred grand for four years. So you've got a $200,000 gap between them and these readers were saying to me, "Hey, we live in the era of big data, where's the big dataset that explains why NYU is $200,000 better than SUNY Binghamton." I did not know and it felt like a new question to me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well you answer a lot of the questions in the book? And unfortunately there is a lot about this process that we simply cannot control, but I want to focus for our grownup audience on the things that we can control. And we've got a list of a few things we're going to go through. What is the first one? What can we control when it comes to the price we pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, you can control what you know, right? You can learn how the system works. One of the things that continues to amaze me is the number of sophisticated people who are extremely successful in their own chosen fields of employment who show up in my inbox or in my text messages in March or April of their child's senior year in high school.

Ron Lieber:

And they have no idea what has hit them. They have no idea that there is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called merit aid. And that rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can.

Bobbi Rebell:

And that's kind of one of the reasons why college has gotten so expensive in fact, is that it's become the sort of vicious cycle.

Ron Lieber:

One of the things that's made it also complicated for the people who run these schools, it's not just the pricing wars going on in the background, although that certainly helps drive down revenue and the net tuition revenue per student. But one of the things that we can't control as individuals and the schools have a lot of trouble controlling, is that people good ones, well trained people cost money, right?

Ron Lieber:

Professors spend, a minimum of five years in graduate training and Economics 101 suggests that, people who need to spend that long learning and training ought to be compensated at an above average rate. There are also more administrators than there used to be for every 1000 undergraduates. But that's mostly because we like it that way, right?

Ron Lieber:

We want disabled kids to have access. We want kids with mental health issues to have access. We want there to be a good counseling center on all of that. So, we get the administrators, we demand in the marketplace. But it is not cheap to run these places and if we made them more efficient, we might not like the result.

Bobbi Rebell:

So for parents that want merit aid, how can we control merit aid and how much we can get for our child or for kids going to college, if you're a teenager listening to this?

Ron Lieber:

Well, the first thing you have to be able to figure out is whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes.

Ron Lieber:

I think of schools like, Oberlin or Connecticut College, relatively Tony Brand’s private schools. A lot of fancy kids go there. They don't really want to talk about this. They're ashamed that they've got to, get in there and slug it out in the marketplace.

Ron Lieber:

And so you have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts.

Bobbi Rebell:

Another thing I was shocked about that you talk about in your book that people can control is if they do get a financial aid package, they can appeal it.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. There are a lot of people who don't know that this is the case as well. And it gets a little messy, right? Because the need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. But the merit aid awards come from admissions. So depending on which awards you have, you may need to file your appeal to different people.

Ron Lieber:

And then when you do, you may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need- based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

That's going to give you the best chance of success. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's get into other things that people can control. There's a lot of myths about how to save, where to save and how much to save to get the best opportunity in terms of support from the college. What should people be doing? What can they control there?

Ron Lieber:

Well, let's go through a couple of the maxims here that are repeated as truths in financial planning and in personal finance, journalism, by people who ought to know better that are not actually true. First of all, there's this idea out there that if you need to make a choice between saving for retirement and saving for college, you should save for retirement because you can't borrow for retirement. That implies a couple of things.

Ron Lieber:

First of all, that borrowing for college is necessarily and always a good idea, and it may not be for some families. But it also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home.

Ron Lieber:

So, I hate things that are presented as maxims. They're actually based in factual inaccuracies. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time.

Ron Lieber:

So there's a whole bunch of problems with this. I mean, first of all, the financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. And let me also say this, right?

Ron Lieber:

I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Bobbi Rebell:

And speaking of your kids, that's also something you can control. You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. Look, I mean, we do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. That's not how it works when this thing that they are chasing costs today, as much as $325,000 for University of Chicago at the rack rate, right? You don't get to make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old.

Ron Lieber:

So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Bobbi Rebell:

And the final thing I want to talk about is our own emotions. There's the cliche, "Keeping up with the Joneses" and everyone says, "Oh, I just want what's best for my child." But people get pretty emotional. This for many parents, it's a reflection on, it's almost like, did they get an A+ in parenting, depending on where their child goes to school. They want that sticker on the car, right?

Ron Lieber:

I am so glad you bring this up. Obviously the students have a tendency to be emotional. They're getting ready to leave home, they feel like it's competitive. They want to be able to hold their head up in the community. They want what they want and that's normal for adolescents.

Ron Lieber:

But what we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, with our spouses if we have one, with our exes, if we have some of those about the feelings that all of this invokes and evokes, right? We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt, right? The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us.

Ron Lieber:

And so therefore we should borrow $150,000 per kid, right? We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Bobbi Rebell:

Very interesting. And it's true in schools, one of the myths that you dispel in the book is that schools, they have all these things you joke about the lazy river and the rock climbing wall. I mean, that is something that is eye candy for students. That's not the reason that schools are so expensive by the way.

Ron Lieber:

No, I mean, these are really fun things to go gawk at and talk about and old school types will snicker and think that everything's gone to rot. But I don't blame the schools for this. I mean, these 18 year olds want to continue to live in the manner to which they become accustomed.

Ron Lieber:

And all of a sudden in a generation we've gone from, having a VCR in your room and a private phone line, and your own camcorder, being a luxury to everybody walking around with this little rectangle that like does all of those things and then some, right?

Ron Lieber:

We just have a way higher standard of living that we used to. And so it doesn't surprise me that a bunch of institutions would want to raise the quality of the lived experience for their undergraduates. I would argue that this is market driven. It's not driven by the institutions and it doesn't actually cost a ton. Again, it's the people who cost money at the schools, not the amenities.

Bobbi Rebell:

Right. And that's a big, big myth that you bust in the book. I loved your book. I hope lots of people pick it up because it is eye-opening about so many things that I thought were true that are not true like that last example. Ron, where can people be in touch with you?

Ron Lieber:

Yeah, I am itching to get back out on the road again, but it's probably not going to happen until November at the earliest. So I will be all over the internet. The best way to catch up with me is to sign up for my newsletter, which I promise I don't send out all that often. But if you go to ronlieber.com and just drop your first name and your email address in there, you can keep up with me and I will continue to send notes and notices about where I will be appearing via zoom. And I'm on all the usual social channels @RonLieber.

Bobbi Rebell:
So wonderful. Thank you so much.

Ron Lieber:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay my friends. I was pretty surprised about how little at a relative basis, all those luxuries amenities costs, but I guess overall, it is a good thing that the money is going in large part to educators. Right? I would love to hear about your experiences with paying for college. You can DM me at @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, @BobbiRebell on Twitter, and please join the grownup list.

Bobbi Rebell:

We share recommendations of books, podcasts, and other fun things to level up your grownup life, plus we are doing giveaways of books from the authors on the show and exclusive financial grownup merchandise. Just go to my website, Bobbirebell.com to sign up. Big thanks to, "The Price You Pay for College" author, Ron Lieber for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Author Barbara Huson joins the Financial Grownup podcast to share her research and insights on a new way to approach learning about money and wealth, as well as preview her latest book Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success

Get Barbara’s new book, Rewire for Wealth here.

Get all of Barbara’s books along with other books by Financial Grownups here.

Barbara’s Steps to Rewire Your Brain for Wealth

Step #1 -

Start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. Separate yourself from the thought.

Step #2-

The second step is reframing your negative thoughts to see it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought.

Step #3-

The third step is you respond differently. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Episode Links:

• Barbara’s website - https://www.barbara-huson.com

Follow Barbara!

• Instagram - @thebarbarahuson

• Twitter - @thebarbarahuson

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbarahuson/

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT-

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. Now, we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online, and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So, if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power. I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it, and I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have. Go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Three ways to rewire your brain for financial success with Rewire for Wealth author Barbara Huson. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. You know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey, everyone. Hope you guys are well despite all the chaos going on in the world. It's pretty hard to just keep functioning in daily life, but that's what a lot of us have to kind of find a way to keep doing. I've been continuing to work on my book, tentatively called Launching Financial Grownups, and I'm really taking some time to focus, to refocus, I should say, more on this podcast, which I love doing this podcast for you guys. Some of you know I made a big decision coming into this new year to take a sabbatical from my other podcast, Money with Friends with Joe Saul-Sehy. There was literally no way I was going to get my book done anywhere near the spring deadline, so I needed a jolt and this is what I had to do.

Bobbi Rebell:

Coming into the new year, I think a lot of us can benefit from a jolt and just kind of waking up and seeing things maybe a little differently. We've been dealing with a lot of the same old, same old. A lot of us have gotten into ruts, not surprising given everything going on, but look, we've been quarantining and sometimes this can be a good time for a change in mindset, even though yeah, the new year is sort of an artificial way of marking it. But I think there's something about coming into a new year that can motivate us to change our mindset. So on that note, this week's guest is really perfect for all of that. You guys that want to join me in changing your mindset and getting remotivated, Barbara Huson is an author. She has written seven books. The best one is probably, the one that's really best-known, I should say, is Prince Charming is Not Coming. By the way, it was written not under her current married name, it was written under Barbara Stanny.

Bobbi Rebell:

She now is coming out with her number eight book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. When I first heard the title, I was a bit skeptical, but her team sent me an advanced copy, and not too far into it I was on board. That's why I'm so excited that she made the time to come on the podcast and talk about the themes in the book and how we can all integrate them into our lives. And by the way, even though the book is technically aimed at women, I really believe these strategies are truly for any gender. Before I roll the interview, I'm doing big things this year that I want to make sure to keep you guys informed about, because I'm hoping they can really help you reach a lot of your grownup goals this year.

Bobbi Rebell:

The first thing is I'm going to really be upping the ante with The Grownup List. It's been coming out... well, I've been trying to do it once a month. That hasn't really happened, so we're going to, first of all, try to have it actually come out once a month. We're going to have some big giveaways that I'm really excited about, starting with the one that's going to come out soon in January. So please get on the list. It is free. You just go to my website, BobbiRebell.com to sign up. Please also follow me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1. If you go there, just send me a DM just to say hi so I know that you're there and you've heard this on the podcast. And by the way, apologies in this interview for any audio glitches. Barbara was coming to us from an area with really weak signals, wifi, whatever you want to call it. So the audio is not ideal, but the interview is well worth it. Here is Barbara Huson.

Bobbi Rebell:

Barbara Huson, welcome to Financial Grownup. We're so glad to have you here and we're so excited to hear more about your new book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. Welcome.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you, and thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Before we get into that, I want people to know a little bit about your background, because it is one of a kind. You come from a very unique perspective in your approach to wealth and basically how we should be thinking about it.

Barbara Huson:

I grew up in a wealthy family. My father was the R of H&R Block. The only advice he ever gave me about money was, "Don't worry," which I thought was great advice. I didn't understand money. I just wanted to spend it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't want to worry about money. I would love to just spend it. Sounds good to me, Barbara.

Barbara Huson:

Yeah. It sounded great to me until I found out very early in my marriage that my husband, who was a stockbroker, was a compulsive gambler. Over the course of our marriage, he lost a fortune of my inheritance. Here's the insane part, I continued to let him manage the money because that's how terrified and intimidated I was by anything to do with money. After our divorce, I decided I didn't want to deal with money, it's not my thing. Well, I have learned that if you don't deal with your money, your money will deal with you. Then the next year, I got tax bills for over a million dollars for back taxes my ex didn't pay for illegal deals he got us in. My signature was on everything. I hired lawyers, I got the tax bill down. I sold what was left in my trust. I was left with nothing. I had a few properties. I had a few properties…and so if I lived frugally, I'd be fine. I had three daughters. I was not going to raise them on the street. I was determined to get smart.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That's what we call a financial grownup moment, is having your husband gamble away your fortune and having to figure it out with young children. For sure. So you have a lot to teach us. I know that from that moment, you went on this mission. For years, you've really dedicated your life to educating women, to coaching women about wealth. You now have seven books out. Your eighth one is coming out and now you're here talking to us, which I'm so grateful for. You brought us three tips to rewire your brain for financial success. First, talk a little bit before we get to that about the whole concept of that, because this is a whole different way to think about money, starting with how our brains work.

Barbara Huson:

About six years ago, I stumbled on an article about neuroscience. If I could integrate neuroscience, the principles of neuroscience, of rewiring your brain into the work that I was doing with finances, helping women become financially empowered, that can expedite the learning curve and get them past the resistance in a very short time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us an overview of the three tips, and then we can talk about what each one is.

Barbara Huson:

So the three steps are simply recognize, reframe and respond differently. Recognize, reframe, and respond differently. I'll explain these steps in a minute, but you must do these over and over and over and over again, because the key to rewiring your brain, to changing the habits, is repetition. So the first step, recognize. What that means is you start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Start observing them. "Oh, I'm having a thought about not having enough. Oh, I'm having a thought about I have to have those shoes. I have to have that designer handbag," or whatever. Or, "I'm not enough." But you start observing, and you observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. "Oh, isn't that interesting? I'm having a thought," because by doing that, you separate yourself from the thought.

Barbara Huson:

The second step is taking that thought, "There's never enough," and reframing it, seeing it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought, "Oh, there's enough. There's enough," or maybe it's, "oh, here's an opportunity to rewire that thought." The third step is you respond differently. You [inaudible 00:09:24] do. What you do want to do, which doesn't feel right, which doesn't come naturally. In that case, there's never enough and you could go into fear and not want to open your bills and not want to look at your checkbook. Therefore, the thing to do is open at least one bill or start looking at your checkbook. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you say to people that maybe have people around them that are counter-effective? I don't know if that's quite the right word. They're not supportive of this rewiring idea. That are filling people with the wrong kinds of thoughts. How do you do that? Especially, we're in quarantine, sometimes we don't have much choice with who we're with.

Barbara Huson:

It's really, really important that you, at least while you are rewiring, while you want to shift from being one way to being another way, it's really important to surround yourself with people who are supporting you and not trying to rain on your parade. And that may mean if your husband is being a naysayer, simply not listening, walking out of the room. But it's really important, it's a really good point you made, because you become who you're with. There is a tendency to become who you're with. It's very important to distance yourself emotionally, if not physically, from the people who are not there supporting you.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is such good advice. Tell us more about... The book is coming out in January. Tell us more about where people can find out more about the book and about you and be in touch with you.

Barbara Huson:

Well, you can go to my website, which is Barbara-Huson, H-U-S-O-N, .com. Barbara-Huson.com. The book is actually for presale now. I know it's on Amazon and Barnes & Noble, but yes, you can come to my website. There's just lots of stuff on there, and I have wonderful offerings on there. I invite anyone to come.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, thank you so much for joining us. I love the book. In fact, I endorsed it, so that's truly something that I don't do very often, but this book really struck me as something very important that we should all be embracing in the way that we approach money. I think a lot of people can benefit from this different way of thinking about wealth and our money. So thank you so much for being here and thank you so much for this newest book.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, are you guys ready to rewire for wealth? Let me know how you like the book and what other authors you'd like for me to invite on the Financial Grownup podcast. We actually have a lot of big author interviews coming up this winter, and most of them are going to be donating books to be given away to those of you on The Grownup List. We're also giving away branded merchandise as a sneak peek to what we're going to be fully launching a little bit later on, probably early spring. And you can enter and win only if you are on The Grownup List. Super easy to join. Go to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and just sign up. See you guys there. Big thanks, of course, to Barbara Huson, for helping us rewire for wealth and be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

 

Clever Girl Finance’s Bola Sokunbi is famous for saving $100k on a $54k salary in about 3 years. But then she started dropping $3,000 on a massive collection of luxury handbags, most of which she never even used. 

In Bola’s money story you will learn:

-How she saved more than $100,000 on a salary of just $54,000 in three and a half years

-The side hustle that helped her reach that goal

-How after she reached that goal, she made a very unexpected spending splurge

-The fascinating reason, looking back, that she went down that path and kept going!

-The moment she woke up and realized she had to make a change

-Exactly what she did to get back on track and make a profit in the process

-The regret she had despite making money on her debacle

-Why she thinks so much about Amazon stock

In Bola’s money lesson you will learn:

-Why keeping her handbags in top condition was the key in getting a solid return when she went to sell them

-Other ways to maintain the value of resale able luxury goods like handbags

-Her take on investing in goods like handbags compared to the stock market and corporations

In Bola’s money tip you will learn:

-Ways to get luxury goods like handbags for less money without compromising quality

-Bola’s favorite pre-owned goods resources

-How friends can trade or sell handbags to each other

-Bola’s new strategy for buying expensive handbags

In my take you will learn:

-Why I compare Bola’s handbag venture to winning the lottery

-The difference between saving money and building wealth

-How to sell luxury goods like handbags, as well as other things you can sell, like baby strollers

-Why I do not promote buying fake goods as a cheaper option

Episode links

Bola’s website: CleverGirlFinance.com

Bola’s podcast: Clever Girls Know

Follow Bola!

Twitter Clever Girl Finance

Instagram Clever Girl Finance

Facebook Clever Girl Finance

LinkedIn Bola Sokunbi

 

Also mentioned in the show:

Vestiare Collective

Fashionphile

Rent the Runway

---

Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
Support for Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell and the following message come from TransferWise, the cheaper way to send money internationally. TransferWise takes a machete to the hefty fees that come with sending money abroad. Test it out for free at transferwise.com/podcast or download the app.

Bola Sokumbi:
I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather. Like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. You know what, being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. This is one of those, "She did not do that," episodes. My guest was a champ at saving money on a very low income, but once she had that money, things took in unexpected turn and then there was yet another unexpected twist to the story. Bola Sokumbi is a certified financial education instructor and the force behind the very popular, Clever Girl Finance, a website and podcast that empowers and educates women to make the best financial decisions for them. Here is Bola Sokumbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Bola Sokumbi, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am such a fan of yours. First of all, in addition to being a money expert, you are the force behind Clever Girl Finance, which is a website and a podcast. It started after you. I don't even know how you did this. You saved $100,000 in three and a half years on a salary of, I want to say, about $50,000?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I was making $54,000 before taxes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Give us just the high level. How you did that.

Bola Sokumbi:
I basically got lean and mean with, probably, my finances. I contributed to my retirement fund from my employer because I knew they were offering a match and that was a way for me to get some free money. I kept my expenses super low. I avoided my friends and stayed home. I wasn't going out to eat very much. I wasn't buying alcohol. I was the-

Bobbi Rebell:
Temporarily, right?

Bola Sokumbi:
Temporarily.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Bola Sokumbi:
I was in a steady ramen noodles and coke diet. I focused on saving 40 to 50% of my paycheck and anything extra.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I save my tax returns, my bonuses. I try to save as much as possible. I also started a side hustle. I started a wedding photography business, which really helped to increase the amount of money I was bringing in. That helped contribute to me being able to save that amount of money. Finally, I avoided credit cards as best I could. I, instead, used a charge card that require me to pay my balance in full every month. That kept me really mindful about my spending, but overall, it was really just setting the intention that I wanted to save and I wanted to challenge myself to save six figures. I put my mind to it. I gone to that focus and three and a half years later, I was able to save that $100,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
So smart. In full details, if anyone wants, go to Clever Girl Finance. I want to talk about your money story that you brought because Bola, this is like an incredible story given what you just said.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here you are. You got $100,000. You're hustling with a side hustle. You're eating ramen noodles. You're doing everything intentionally, maxing out your retirement account to get the max. What do you do? You start buying $3,000 handbags. Tell us what, what.

Bola Sokumbi:
Holla.

Bobbi Rebell:
What?

Bola Sokumbi:
Let me break it down. Basically, I got to this point where I had saved a ton of money. I had a lot of money in the bank. Actually, at the end of the four years, I had about $150,000 saved. I was making more money. I had my business. I gone raising at my job. I was earning, now, well over six figures at this point. I was like "Wow, I have all this money. I maxed out my retirement savings. I'm still meeting my savings obligations. I just have to treat myself." I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather, like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I personally would've bought a pint of Haagen-Dazs if I wanted to treat myself but okay. $3,000 handbags.

Bola Sokumbi:
I went all the way, yes. I got my first designer handbag like "Oh my God, this is amazing. It's beautiful. I bought this in cash. I love it."

Bobbi Rebell:
What was it? Describe it.

Bola Sokumbi:
It was a Channel Jumbo in black caviar leather with gold hardware, classic, beautiful.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. I wouldn't know.

Bola Sokumbi:
I got the one. Should've been enough, but then I was like well, few months later, I have all the spare money. I'm still saving. I didn't know what to do. I want to invest, but I don't need to invest that much. I'm going to buy another designer handbag. I got to the point where I was buying several handbags for maybe three or four years. To me, it was fine because I was still saving. I was still meeting my obligation.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much do you think you spent in total, Bola, on the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh my goodness. I don't know. If we were to have an Instagram competition on who could grab their handbags steady for the next 30 to 60 days, I would win, every time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait. Wait. You're going to have a different handbag every day for 30 to 60 days?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah, I could. Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Bola Sokumbi:
I could've. I have a lot of handbags. I had them in different colors-

Bobbi Rebell:
Were they just sitting in the closet? Were you taking them to work? What was going on with the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
That's the sucky part. I maybe use like two or three. Well, I was exaggerated. I didn't have 60. Exaggerating. About a month. Let's say, a month. I didn't really use them. That was a disappointing factor. I'm one of those people that believe that if there's something that you like and it's something that you're going to use, go for it as long as you plan it out financial, but I wasn't using them. They did not make financial sense for me. I was using like one or two of them, and then maybe the others, I would look at or wear to a baby shower for 25 minutes and it goes right back into the closet. It did not make any financial sense. Fortunately, for me, at the time that I purchase them, for those of you who are into handbags, knew that there have been a flurry of price increases especially with the higher end luxury brands.

Bola Sokumbi:
At the time I bought the handbags, I bought them before the crazy price increases started. I got to a point where I was like "Okay, this doesn't make any sense." I will look in my closet and all I would see would be dollar bills stacked up. My husband is like "You need to let these go. You don't even use them. It doesn't make sense. You feel so guilty about having them because you're not using them." I took it upon myself to sell almost every one of them. I still have a few. The ones I use. It was really hard to sell them because I felt like I was selling my children. It's crazy. When I think about it, it's ridiculous, but I sold them. Luckily, for me, because of the price increases, I was able to sell them for a lot more than I purchase. That very first Channel handbag, the black jumbo I just described with caviar hardware, I paid $2,900 for it and I sold it for $5,500.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness. Only you, Bola, would actually turn a cringeworthy shopping habit into a positive investment experience.

Bola Sokumbi:
However, Bobbi, to the point you asked me before we started recording was, I made money but when I think about it, I really didn't make that much money because one of the things that trigger me to start selling those handbags was Amazon stock. I realized that if I had spent all that money I spent on those handbags on Amazon Stock, I would've had times 100 of what I had spent on handbags. Not just doubling my money. I would've like times 100 it, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
If you had actually bought Amazon Stock, but truthfully, how much do you think ... do you think you spent $90,000 on handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh, I don't know. Over a three to four year period, I spent a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. You bought 30 handbags at $3,000 each.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I had about 30. They were not all the same price.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Bola Sokumbi:
They were not all $3,000 handbags.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was the most expensive one?

Bola Sokumbi:
The Channel handbags I had. They were about in the $3,000, $3,500 range at that time. Now, they're not anymore. They're about 6 to $7,000 now.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I don't own any more handbags by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson from this beyond the fact that there was a time in life when investing in handbag was actually an appreciable asset? Still, they probably know. I don't know the market, but anyway, beyond the fact that it actually turned on to be a good investment.

Bola Sokumbi:
I wouldn't even describe as an appreciable handbag because for me, it was just purely for the fact that I was not using them. No one is going to pay you top dollar for a handbag that has been worn and beat up. If you're buying something, I believe that you should be using it. Lesson for this is cost per wear. You can have 100 Channel handbags if you want to have them and if you can afford them and you're paying for them in cash and it's not taking off your financial goals, but what is your cost per wear. How often are you using them? Are you getting your money's worth? If you buy a handbag for $3,000 and you wear it once, then that one time you wore it cost you $3,000 and that makes no sense. If you buy this handbag and you wear it 3,000 times over four years, then that handbag cost you $1 or maybe it comes down to cents and pennies and that starts to make more sense because as opposed to buying $25 handbags over that three-year period and use that one handbag over that time and you get your cost per wear.

Bola Sokumbi:
To me, cost per wear is really important. That's how I plan out my wardrobe. I still buy fancy things, but I have to be using them. I have to get my cost per wear down to pennies for it to make sense. I know when I see something if I'm going to use it or not. Understand your cost per wear. People may think, "Oh, buying handbags is crazy," but people spend their money on different things. For me, it was the handbag thing. Some people spend their money on electronics, on cars, on things that they don't necessarily use like having a second car in your garage that you drive on Saturday is not good to drive per wear.

Bobbi Rebell:
The handbags make you feel good.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I would pick a handbag over a lot of things. That was me. That was a lesson I learned. I put the money right back into my investment accounts. I was better for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's stick with the handbag thing. What is your money tip, your everyday money tip for everyone?

Bola Sokumbi:
I would say that if you are a handbag girl like me, no shay, no judgment, find ways to get the handbags that you like at a cheaper cost or without putting out so much money. For instance, Bobbi, you and I talked about Rent the Runway. You really like that. If you want to actually own them, you can think about getting them preowned from sties like Fashion File or Vestiaire Collective. There's a bunch of different ones that are reputable that sell authentic products or even local consignment stores in New York. There's a ton of them. Or buying them off of friends who are trying to let go of their handbags or trying to recycle their wardrobe. Those are great ways that you can get luxury at a lower cost. You can also wait until some of these handbags go into the sale and purchase them that way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because a lot of them are really classic.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yes. It's all about buying something that you know you're going to use for a long time. I tend to avoid any trend pieces because I don't want to be out of fashion next year after spending all this money on it. I buy bags that I can carry forever. That's what I do. Every purchase I make right now, I carry that bag to shreds, basically.

Bobbi Rebell:
Definitely. Get that cost per wear down. Where can people find you and learn more about Clever Girl Finance?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. You can find me on my website at clevergirlfinance.com, on Instagram at Clever Girl Finance, on Facebook, Clever Girl Finance. I also have a podcast called, Clever Girls Know. You can search for it on iTunes, Stitcher, Sound Cloud. You'll find it there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think everyone should definitely check all of that out. I am a big fan. Thank you so much, Bola.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. Except for the fact that she was ironically able to sell the handbags at a profit, this whole thing reminds me of what happens when people inherit a ton of money or they win the lottery and then they just don't know what to do, so they go shopping. Financial Grownup tip number one, Bola was great at accumulating money but she was selling herself short when it came to building wealth. She was meeting her goals in terms of saving and investing and all that, but that doesn't mean she couldn't move the goal post given the resource that she had and make even more ambitious goals. Not a problem to buy a bag that you can afford, but she wasn't even using most of them. Bola is very specific that, well, they ironically went up in value if she had invested the money. In her case, she talks about Amazon Stock, she would've made a lot more money. Of course, you could lose money in the stock market. There's no guarantee of that. It's just something to consider.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two, if you do buy luxury goods and you aren't using them, it is easier than ever to sell them, so many resources online. You may not make as big a profit as Bola did, you may lose money but you're still going to get some cash. I have sold some bags on the real wheel. I've been happy to have the cash even though it went for less than I paid. You can also buy slightly used bags there at a discount if you want them. As I've said before, you can rent them at Rent the Runway or other similar websites. I will leave some links in the show notes for you guys. Given these resources, I would also urge you to stay away from the fakes. It undermines the economy and the business of the companies that produce the real thing. Don't buy fake bags. Also, it is illegal.

Bobbi Rebell:
We want you to be a financial grownup. Send us an email to info@financialgrownup.com if you want to be considered for one of our monthly listener episodes. Just tell us what the money story is that you want to share and your everyday money tip. If you have not already, please rate and review the podcast on iTunes, Apple Podcast. That helps others discover us and grow the community. It is truly appreciated. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any upcoming episodes and follow me at Bobbi Rebell on Twitter @ bobbirebell1 on Instagram and on Facebook, I am at Bobbi Rebell. Bola is the best. I am so appreciative that she was brave enough to get really candid. She definitely got us all one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media Production.

Journalist and author Nicole Lapin shares a hilarious story of how a lack of preparation almost led to total humiliation.  Plus why procrastination can be a good thing for financial grownups.

Nicole’s Money Story:

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. I started as a business reporter on the floor of the Chicago Merc when I was 18 years old, and when I was asked if I knew anything about money news or business news, I totally lied, and I faked it till I made it. And then I had to become real, because I found that money is just a language like anything else, and I could not speak that language. So I was going to interview the founders of a tech company at the time and my boss, who was awesome, said to me as I ran out the door, and I would always carry like a big diaper bag, almost combat ready with all sorts of stuff, like a poncho just in case, from my time in actual general news, I didn't know what would happen. I was combat ready. And he was like, "Do you have the P&L?" You know, a lot of people call me NL or Lapin for short.

Nicole Lapin:
And I was like, "No dude, I'm good. I don't need to pee." And I get to the interview and the PR person was like, "Do you have the P&L?" And I'm like, okay, think, Lapin, think. She is not asking you if you need to pee, this must be a money term. I sit down with the founders, and they're like, our profits, as you can see from our P&L, you know, blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, okay, okay, has to do with profits, think, think, think. Profits. L, losses. And I kept saying PnL, like Kibbles 'n Bits, and I didn't even know it was an and. Like, I just was so clueless, and that was a great example of how I had to think about this right on the spot and definitely was not prepared.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, so what happened? How did this play out? Did you have an aha moment in the middle of the interview?

Nicole Lapin:
I had the aha moment, and I knew enough that it had to do with their balance sheet, and so I could sort of dance around it and get through the interview. Then after that I wrote down PnL, like N for Nicole, and then it took me another hot minute to realize there was an and sign. It was like profits and losses.

Bobbi Rebell:
At the time, did you confess to anyone? Did you tell your boss, "I didn't know what that meant," or did you just keep going?

Nicole Lapin:
No, no, no, no, no. I just had super intense imposter syndrome, and I just thought everyone was going to figure out that I didn't know what I was talking about, and I would have never, ever admitted at the time that I couldn't speak this language. I only now can talk about this, very gladly in hindsight. I love making fun of myself with the most embarrassing money stories, but no, definitely not at the time.

“Money is an intimidating language. It’s ok if you can’t speak the language. Just ask what something means.”

Nicole’s Money Lesson:

Nicole Lapin:
I think realizing that money is an intimidating language. We just don't have a Rosetta Stone for this growing up. And it's okay if you can't speak the language. Just ask what something means. I've talked to COs of major publicly traded companies who have asked me like what does [inaudible 00:06:00] mean, for example, like right before we went on the air, and I was like, "Dude, it's just the bond buyback program." Like, no big deal. And they were like, "Yeah, I just didn't know the terminology." And so there's lots of terminology that sounds confusing. If you went to China and you didn't speak Chinese, you'd be confused. If you went to Wall Street and you didn't speak the language of money, you would be confused, too.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I love that you're saying that, because so many of us kind of nod and pretend we understand something and maybe make decisions that we shouldn't make, because we don't want to admit that we don't get it.

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah, totally. And you're definitely not alone. I think a lot of people smile and nod and don't join basic money conversations because they're too intimidated and too scared to admit that they don't know what's going on.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And by the way, your website and your books are a tremendous resource for understanding a lot of this stuff.

“I aim for progress and not perfection. If I have more good days than bad days then I am totally winning.”

Nicole’s Money Tip:

Nicole Lapin:
I like to rethink conventional financial wisdom, conventional business wisdom. And yes, you're right. I rewrite financial dictionaries and business dictionaries. I did it in the back of Rich (beep) and Boss (beep). This is maybe why I'm single. But at the end of every chapter in every book, I rethink conventional wisdom to hopefully help you think for yourself. And procrastination is often used as a bad word. It's used as something that you should avoid, but I actually think that you can not fully procrastinate, because it's so cathartic to cross out all the things on your to-do list, like, here we go, dry cleaning, you know, pick up this, blah blah blah blah blah. And actually, those things might not move you towards your goals. So if you remind yourself of what you're working toward and what you have to do and almost connect the dots, I came up with a Super Woman journal that's a companion journal along with Becoming Super Woman to help you do that throughout the day, and I create this point system that's almost like a weight loss sort of system that allows you to give yourself points for things you're focusing on and forgive yourself first if you're not focusing on just the then and there. Because I think we can have it all. We just can't do it all, especially not at the same time.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And another thing that I love about the book is you have these really compelling quotes. For example, related to what we were just talking about, you have a quote from Mark Twain, "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow," which makes a lot of sense when you really think about the reasoning behind it.

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. If you have to pick up your dry cleaning or something, and you need to get something done that will move you toward making your side hustle your full time hustle, I would do that and then get your dry cleaning, unless you really have like nothing, nothing to wear. I would do that later on.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing in the book that I love is that you have not just a to-do list, but a have done list.

Nicole Lapin:
Yes. Because, you know, we often get into this mode of we've just not accomplished anything, and we're not doing anything compared to everybody else on Instagram. And I think comparison is the thief of joy, and also we tend to compare ourselves to the best version of each aspect of our lives. So we compare our fitness regime to a fitness blogger who works out five hours a day, or our mommy life to that of a mommy YouTuber who bakes bread for her kids and homeschools them. That's not realistic. And so if we get into that cycle and we don't have the definition of what success is to us, we often feel inadequate. We shouldn't.

Bobbi Rebell:
No, we should not feel inadequate. But one thing that you also work through in the book is you have specific plans for people to organize and get towards those goals in a realistic way, not in a way where you're trying to keep up with somebody, like you were just talking about.

“Comparison is the thief of joy”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

We didn't get to this in the interview, but a lot of Nicole's advice focuses on productivity and avoiding distraction and all the stress that that causes, and of course spending time when you didn't mean to on things. For example, she recommends a browser extension called unroll.me. It's free, and I am now using it. I will leave a link in the show notes. You can always find the show notes by going to bobbirebell.com and then going to the Financial Grownup podcast area. There's also a handy search box in the upper right hand corner, where you can always just type in the guest name or any keyword, but definitely check out unroll.me.

Financial grownup tip number two:

Another one from Nicole's book was to keep emails to five sentences. If it has to be longer than five sentences, then it deserves a phone call. I'm going to start trying that in my workflow. We'll see how it goes, but if you do it, too, let me know how it goes.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Nicole’s website - nicolelapin.com

• Nicole’s book Becoming Super Woman

Follow Nicole!

• Instagram - @nicolelapin

• Facebook - @NicoleLapin

• Twitter - @NicoleLapin

• YouTube - @NicoleLapin

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Optometrist Jen Tsai was in the process of launching her solo practice when the pandemic hit. She shares how she kept her cool and managed to overcome financing and construction challenges, as well as build a retail practice while the world was in turmoil. 

Jennifer’s Money Story:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, it definitely wasn't my goal to open a cold start practice in the start of pandemic. I honestly thought with the year being 2020 it would be good luck to open it with that, but you can never plan for things. I think that was an important lesson, to just always be prepared, especially financially, with working capital, when you go into any business. If we didn't do that, if I didn't do that, we would've been in a different place today.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
I think being prepared for that was always important, and being able to work the first couple of years, just seeing how other practices ran their business, really taught me a lot because I paid attention to their maybe downfalls and ways that they were efficient and applied that to my own business model.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, how did you balance everything? Because you had these plans in place, you were geared up to start this business, then coronavirus hit and you did have other financial things going on you had to balance. You still had student debt, so you had to balance that. Did you take out loans? How did you finance this business and how did you keep going as this pandemic is emerging?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, I definitely have student debt. Luckily, my undergrad was paid off and I had some scholarships. In terms of medical school and optometry school, it is quite expensive as we all know and we come out of it with a couple hundred thousand dollars with our name. I didn't always have a fear of taking out debt. I understood and I did my research about what the student rates were. I think a lot of people do have a fear of taking out student debt, and when they finish school their immediate goal is to completely pay off their loans because it may seem daunting or scary and they feel that they can't continue to do other things with their money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and it's not that it's bad to pay off the student debt. It's bad if it keeps you from living your life, I guess, is what you're getting at, that you don't start other things until you pay it down completely when you're facing, in your case, six-figure debt.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah. I think that is definitely something that stalls people or holds them back. I think it's important to realize that student debt is not a bad thing. I think people see it as a bad thing. There's definitely a lot of debt that other people have that they don't realize on a day-to-day basis that's actually worse, which is credit card loans that you purchase stuff with. Those interest rates are definitely higher.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Going into that, I definitely saved up enough working capital and I made sure that I refinanced my loans to make sure that I had a lower interest rate. I didn't really let that stop me from chasing my dreams and going after what I really wanted. Initially, I was held a bit back, looking at the cost of how much to start a complete cold start. I was even looking at buying old practices that were definitely a lot cheaper, but also evaluating their P&Ls. Thinking about the whole thing, I realized in the long run, this is a short-term investment for your end goal, which is the more important thing. So I was willing to take that investment, especially on myself. That's what I wanted to focus on.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did things change when you were in the pandemic and you're trying to start this?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Once it was around March, we were gearing up to open. We were finally putting down the finishing touches for the front of the store and then the pandemic happened. I'm in New York City, so when it first happened in March, it definitely was a tough time. It was really scary for us. We knew it was coming from upstate and then all of a sudden it became widespread and immediately everything just shut down. It was like a ghost town. We couldn't even go to the site to really look at the construction because we weren't even allowed to be in proximity with our contractors, so everything just came to a halt. I had to quickly convert to a virtual telehealth visit for my patients, while doing virtual Zoom calls with my architect team. It was just insane. It was an insane time. We couldn't even finish our construction because we had to apply for permitting in order to be able to finish construction during a pandemic.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Finally, around I would say maybe like June or July, they allowed us to go back in to finish construction. Of course, at that point there was delays in manufacturers with their materials, getting it to our store. It was just working around that. I mean, I will tell you, our store still isn't even completely done to this day. I've just learned to live day by day at this point. But luckily, we were able to at least open our doors August 6. I was just really excited to get in there. After four months of not really seeing patients in person, I wanted to be back in there to be able to care for the ones that really needed to see me during that time.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Then I was shocked because we basically, starting from the first day a month and a half ago to now, it's been seeing eight to 10 patients already. Partly, I think it would attribute to probably a little bit of social media, just sharing out there honest, brutal moments that I have and I think it makes it more authentic that people do see where you come from, and also sharing the fact that we're there to provide a space where they feel safe and comfortable, that it's modern and clean. I think that going forward, people really care about their health, patients really do, especially with COVID, that they realize how important their health is and they're willing to invest in that. I am grateful that people have been able to come in.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you do in advance financially to shore up your finances and made sure you had that runway?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
On a bigger scale level I think about it. People are either really trigger happy, or they're really risk adverse. If you're really risk adverse, you'll never take the first step because you're just afraid of all these self-doubts that you have. I think what has helped me is just really creating a strong financial plan and making sure that you have everything checked off for the worst-case scenario in case it happens, because you never know. I think for people who are trigger happy, I think that's one thing that they need to think about. Are there things that could happen, such as a pandemic, that will maybe cause me to not have any cashflow or working capital going into it?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Coming out of school a couple of years later, I realized it doesn't make sense to not refinance my loan so that I could reduce my interest rate and have it all in one place. That has helped me manage my money better. I was working, I would say for the first four years, full-time. Actually, when I first started in two practices, then I went down to one. I hustled, I worked really hard to save money. I didn't put it all into paying off my loans. I used it to save up money, invest on the side, so I had a better cash flow and working capital because I knew that I wanted to start my own practice at that point in time. I just knew that I needed money saved up to do that.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Starting lean when you start a practice is really important and only purchasing things when you need it. It has to justify. If you buy a piece of equipment, how many times do you have to perform the procedure to make the money back, thinking about that, cutting back on vendor purchases or offering more of a curated product of frame line. I think these days, patients prefer that one-on-one time, that one-on-one experience to feel like they've had an amazing experience at the store. You don't have to purchase a million things that don't get bought, instead focusing on limited product lines and setting aside cash reserves to pay bills and reducing your overhead capital expenditures and working with your vendors and landlord, if it's possible, if they're willing to negotiate with you.

Jennifer’s Money Lesson:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
I would say, little by little, a little becomes a lot. These little steps that you set in place for the long road is really important. One of the things for me is making sure that you have your financial steps in place. At least for me, that was refinancing my student loans, that was the very first step. For example, I use Laurel Road. Right now, I think federal interest rates are so low it's silly to not take advantage of that. It's great to have this digital lending platform that is built for specifically young professionals in healthcare as well to work towards their goals. There's definitely perks and rewards that they have for healthcare professionals. Refinancing definitely helps you with savings over time, and that's how you can use working capital to invest towards your future or your dream practice or something that you want to build.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and it's also going to help your credit score to have all of your finances in order, obviously, which is going to help if you do need to get more funding, especially if you get these unexpected things like a pandemic and you need to access maybe more capital, more time to pay loans and better rates than you maybe thought before.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Right, exactly. I agree.

Jennifer’s Money Tip:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, shiny object syndrome is definitely a public enemy if you go down this rabbit hole of just purchasing everything you find. They're really good at it with marketing, you're just sitting at home, scrolling through your phone on social media and there's something that you want. I remember when I first graduated out of school, with my first paycheck living in New York City, the first thing I decided to buy was a Chanel bag. That was the worst decision I ever made. I could not pay rent the next month. I learned really, really quickly to not do that. I think that was because of Sex and the City. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is so cool living in New York."

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
But I think learning stuff like that is really important. You don't have to have every single piece of brand new state-of-the-art technology in your office. I know you want it for your patients and for your store, but you want to start off very lean so that your savings don't get sucked dry so fast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and I think that makes sense. I mean, I was upset because the style that I wanted on your eyeglasses store was sold out, but you kept your inventory tight so you're living true to that. You don't want to buy so much inventory that you're holding on to inventory. You're starting out your business lean.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Take your time. I was so frustrated that the glasses I wanted to order it were sold out on her online store, Carrot Eyewear, but Dr. Jen explained that she needed to control her risk exposure by keeping inventories lean, even if that meant losing out on some sales, like to me. Yes, it may slow the pace of the retail business growth, but when the pandemic hit, she wasn't over leveraged. Patience pays. Think about how you can buy just what you need so you don't feel stretched and stressed.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Paying down debt is all good, but as we have learned in the past eight or nine months, well, it shouldn't be at the expense of having enough cash on hand to manage through something totally unexpected, like a global pandemic. Don't miss any payments, be mindful, think about how you can refinance maybe at a lower rate as Jen did, especially with our still super low interest rates, but also do the other things to build your life and keep living.

Episode Links:

• Jennifer’s websites -

  • www.drjennifertsai.com

  • www.lineofsightvision.com

  • www.carroteyewear.com

Follow Jennifer!

• Instagram - @drjenandjuice

• Instagram - @lineofsightvision

• Instagram - @carroteyewear

• Facebook - Carrot Eyewear

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Allison Baggerly’s emergency fund was literally a life saver for her beloved dog Joey. She shares her money story, along with an everyday money tip that rescued her from an expensive online shopping habit she developed during the coronavirus pandemic. 

Allison’s Money Story:

Allison Baggerly:
Well, when my husband and I were working to pay off debt, we had two teacher salaries, we were living on two teacher's salaries, working to pay off debt. And we have our dog, Joey, he's still here with us today. He's old, but he is well, and we were visiting family. We left to go see some friends and our dog thought we were leaving him for good. I don't know if he thought maybe we didn't love him anymore. I don't know what happened. But he jumped a chain link fence, ripped out a toenail. The emergency vet we took him to did not give him a strong enough prescription for his size, and he also wrapped his leg too tight.

Allison Baggerly:
So by the time we took off the wrap, he had actually developed gangrene in his leg. And so we were two poor teachers. We basically drained our savings to cover the cost of his leg amputation. I'll never forget feeling so stressed and so overwhelmed because I thought how are we going to pay for this? How are we going to pay for our beloved dog who had this accident? It was completely unexpected. And so we just felt very lost and very helpless in that moment.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what happened? First of all, did you go back to the vet and have certainly at the very least, I mean, how could they have charged you for this given that it sounds like there was some fault on their part?

Allison Baggerly:
So we never were able to prove fault on their part. I was just so emotionally worked up and focused on our dog that I was just like, you know what? I don't even care. People were like you need to get revenge. You need to get your money back. And so we ended up getting some of the money back. Actually my father-in-law contacted his homeowners insurance and somehow they covered the cost of that vet visit, but we had to be out of pocket for the amputation. We actually took them to two different vets to get him looked at. And then our vet was the one who did the amputation and he said he had never seen a case so bad. It was rapidly, like you could see it going up his leg over time. And so it was a matter of, we knew we had to pay for it. Thankfully we didn't have to go into debt or put it on a credit card for it, but it completely drained our savings, which made me feel very insecure as a person in terms of my money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, because that was by definition your backstop. And now what happens if something else happens and it teaches us that as much as emergency funds are important, somehow they're never enough, especially we see what's going on with Coronavirus. We've talked about three to six months emergency funds as being sort of the gold standard. And here we are six months passed. So this is a reminder that it's not only coronavirus that can really devastate an emergency fund. There's so many things that happen. And of course with medical stuff, with humans and with furry friends, you can't always get a second opinion in an emergency. I mean, you were stuck with a medical help you could get at that moment, and you couldn't really go in and be negotiating the bill. You needed medical help. It was an emergency,

Allison Baggerly:
It was an emergency. We needed it right then, or else it would spread to his body and he would have died. It just goes to show you that so often people say $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 is enough while you're paying off debt. And that taught me that it wasn't. It wasn't enough. I was not prepared to cover those types of things. And those things are going to happen whether or not you like it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I have to ask you, so I'm guessing you did not have pet insurance at the time.

Allison Baggerly:
No, we didn't have pet insurance and we don't have pet insurance now. We just paid for it out of our savings, it completely drained it. We ended up actually canceling, my husband had a work trip that he was going to be going on. We ended up canceling that work trip. He was going to have to pay for things like hotel and food so that we could try to increase our savings or put some of that money back in our savings account for the future and build it back up.

“You can never have too much money in savings. If you are working to pay off debt it is ok to pause that goal in order to increase your savings.”

Allison’s Money Lesson:

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson for our listeners from the story? When you look back on it, how many years ago was it?

Allison Baggerly:
It was about seven years ago. He's actually lived longer with three legs than he has with four. So it was about seven years ago. And I would say my lesson is that you can never have too much money in savings and that if you're working to pay off debt, it's okay to pause that goal to increase your savings. Even though it's not fun, even though you might not feel like you're making progress, it will be worth it because there will come a time when you are thankful that you have that money set aside even if it feels like it's just sitting there doing nothing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you know how much? Where is the balance though? A lot of people are always confused about that. What's your opinion?

Allison Baggerly:
My opinion is three to six months of your emergency expenses. Usually if you're going to do something like lose a job, hopefully you'll be able to get a new one within that time. So I teach people to actually calculate how much they would need for an emergency budget. Meaning you do things like cancel Hulu, cancel Apple Music. Those types of things can go in an emergency situation. So it's going to vary per person. But I definitely don't think that even just 1,000 or $2,000 isn't enough because it doesn't cover much anymore

Bobbi Rebell:
Such a good point. But you also point out, well that even like for now in Coronavirus times it's been six months, but yet we are spending less because we're home. So when you're in an emergency situation, you will probably not have the same financial needs as you would have. So you have to make those adjustments.

“I created a tracker and I literally will color in a box every single day that I complete one of my goals. It’s fun for me to see myself visually see myself reaching three small goals that support my bigger money goals.”

Allison’s Money Tip:

Allison Baggerly:
So my everyday money tip is one that I've actually started doing in the coronavirus pandemic. I realized that I was spending so much money online. I don't know if I was maybe processing everything and turning to my emotions. I was stressed and I was stress shopping online, but I realized I was spending so much money on Amazon, it was ridiculous. And so I created basically a tracker to track three money goals. I said, you know what? I need to get back on track with my goals of not spending so much money online and doing different things that helped me financially. And so I created this tracker and I literally will color in a box every single day that I complete one of my goals. And they're so simple.

Allison Baggerly:
One of them is to cook dinner at home, one of them is no online shopping and the other one is exercise. Even though that might not be a money goal, it does help you out financially in years to come. I track those things so that I can build those better habits and just continue to take one step closer every single day to the money goals that I want to achieve.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you manage it if a day you don't do one of the goals? How do you get back on track?

Allison Baggerly:
I just say, okay, you know what? I didn't do it today. That's okay. This is one day, tomorrow is different. So there are days when I don't cook dinner at home whenever I knew I was planning on doing that. And instead of beating myself up for it, instead of saying like, Oh, I failed, I'll just go ahead and start over in the next month or I'll just wait. I'll just keep failing for the next couple of days. Instead of assigning that to my identity, I just say, okay, this happened, thankfully there's still however many days left in the month where I can turn this around and make progress. And so it's fun for me to actually visually see myself reaching three small goals, which those three small goals, they support my bigger money goals. I know if I do these three small things every day, that they can actually make a difference in my big goals that I have set.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

So many people have been adopting pets during COVID-19, which is amazing, but please make sure you understand the financial commitment before you do so.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

If you aren't ready for the financial and lifestyle commitment, or you're just not sure, consider fostering dogs in need while they are waiting for a permanent home. You can get some welcome company and love during the pandemic and really help a pet in need.

Episode Links:

• Allison’s website - www.inspiredbudget.com

• This Is Awkward podcast

• The post where Allison talks more about her dog, Joey

• Get Allison’s FREE Money Tracker here

Follow Allison!

• Twitter - @inspired_budget

• Facebook - @inspiredbudget

• Instagram - @inspiredbudget

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Hello Seven CEO and author Rachel Rodgers has always been bold. But even she was surprised when her family took the plunge and bought a 50-Acre Ranch just after the pandemic started. Her money story will reveal why it makes total sense to expand just when everyone else is in retreat. 

Rachel’s Money Story:

Rachel Rodgers:
We built a house that we currently live in two years ago. We love it, right? I thought this was our forever house. And literally the moment we moved in, my husband's like, "We'll be here a couple of years and then we'll upgrade." And I'm like, "No. Stop saying that. We're going to live here forever. I don't want to upgrade. I want to raise my children here."

Rachel Rodgers:
And sure enough, two years later we saw a property go on the market here in North Carolina. We were like, "Oh my God, we got to see it." It was a ranch, 50 acres. Horse ranch, so it had horses and a beautiful main house on the property. There's also a cottage and there's trails. I mean, it's insane. There's a river runs through it. I mean, it's a little unreal.

Bobbi Rebell:
And Rachel to put this in context, just maybe four years ago, you were actually living in New York and even in much smaller quarters.

Rachel Rodgers:
Yes. So I lived in an 1100 square foot house in Tenafly, New Jersey, right outside the city. And I loved that house, I loved that town, but I got all the kids in the world and we did not fit. And I was running my business from the house as well, so we were bursting at the seams and needed to expand, right? So we wound up with 50 acres. Not exactly what I intended.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. And to be clear, [crosstalk 00:03:56]. You have four children. Wait, you have four children. What are their ages?

Rachel Rodgers:
They are 20, 8, 7 and 2.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness. Okay. So you moved it to the ranch as we record this about a week ago. And by the way, there's actually a separate Instagram channel for the ranch. Tell us what it's like. So you've now gone up from five years, you've gone from 1100 square feet, and correction in New Jersey I thought it was New York, 1100 square feet in the New York area, we're call it, and now you're at this 50 acre ranch. You've got a big to-do list. How are you managing that financially? Do you have a plan? Tell us more.

Rachel Rodgers:
Yeah. Well, I have a big successful business.

Bobbi Rebell:
So this is your next investment.

Rachel Rodgers:
Yes, exactly. And so I actually use the things that I want to do in my personal life as motivation to keep growing the business. And so we've been having a lot of success. We actually had our first million dollar month where we made seven figures in a single month in June, which was really exciting. But we were in the process of buying this before that and so fast forward to February of 2020, we went to see the property. My husband whispers in my ear, "We must do this." Right? Like as we're walking around the property and so I'm like thinking in my head, I don't know how the hell we would pull this off. This feels like a lot. I got to wrap my head around it. And we were thinking maybe it's a retreat space and we use it for business and we make money from it as well. I couldn't wrap my mind around actually living there personally. It just felt like this property is too big. Who raises their kids on 50 acres?

Rachel Rodgers:
And then, literally, we sat down with the sellers. We connected with them. They are entrepreneurs as well. They felt like our fairy godparents, right? They were almost like mentors and they are the ones that built this property. And so we were like, "You know what, we're going to try to find a way and we'll use it for the business and we'll make money from it. Right? I'm good at that. I'm good at ways to make money from things. And so I was like, great. And then literally two weeks later, there was a world pandemic declared and banks weren't even giving out loans. It was like basically business stopped in March and April. And so we were like, I don't know what we're going to do with this property. Obviously this is like a no-go because who buys an enormous property in the middle of pandemic. Maybe not the best choice.

Rachel Rodgers:
And so we kind of hemmed and hawed and we kept in touch with the sellers and we had realtors involved and everything. But in our minds, we really didn't think that we were going to go through with it. And then as the news kept rolling out, it became clear that this is going to be a long-term thing. We're going to be in this pandemic for like a year, maybe longer, who knows. And so we were out in our backyard at the house that we built that I thought we were going to live in forever. We were just laying there, hanging out with our kids. And I was like, "You know what? We should totally move into that big ass ranch. We should move into that ranch. We should live there with our family. If we're going to be in a pandemic, might as well own a ranch." And my husband's like, "I'm down." That was the moment where we committed in the midst of this craziness. It was like, I think we wouldn't have actually gone through with it without the pandemic.

Bobbi Rebell:
So projecting forward, Rachel, tell us about the business of the Rodgers' ranch? What do you envision now?

Rachel Rodgers:
What we envision for it is that we're going to have a little farm. We are going to host retreats. There's a cottage on the property that I'm going to use for my business as my office. And a little sneak peek ahead, we're actually in the process, because we're crazy, of buying a house across the street. Because of course, before we even closed on this property, the house across the street which is the only other house in the culdesac, that house went on the market. And I was like, "Oh my God, it's the perfect retreat house. It has seven bedrooms. We can house so many clients and we could do amazing retreats on the property. We have to buy it."

Rachel Rodgers:
My financial advisors is like, "Please don't. Can we take a beat?" And I'm like, "No, no, no, we have to buy this." Because when will we get another chance if somebody else buys it. So now we're in the process of purchasing the house across the street, so now we will have 57 acres because that house comes with four acres. So it's like 57 acres total that we will own and we'll rent out the house and do Airbnb and stuff like that. But then we'll have retreats where we'll have like coaching with the horses and we'll have a pool party. We've got trails. We have a tennis court. It's pretty bananas.

Rachel Rodgers:
I personally cannot wait to come. Tell us what is the lesson from this money story for our listeners? How can they put this into their own lives? What can they learn from it?

Rachel’s Money Lesson:

Rachel Rodgers:
My lesson for you guys is during a pandemic or recession or any type of hard time, I encourage you to expand instead of contract. I think that's what our natural response is, particularly when it comes to money. Let us just get smaller and contract and we're afraid and so we shrink ourselves and we shrink our dreams during tough times like this. And I say, no, let's expand. Because I actually think, and I've studied this, there are a lot of businesses and a lot of opportunities and careers that get made during times like this. It's the crazy people who are willing to take risks during these sort of shaky times. Those are the people that wind up having wild success. Netflix became what it is in the last recession because remember they were doing the DVDs and then they started doing streaming because they had to change their business model. And guess what? Now they're an enormous giant. And so I say, look for opportunities to expand.

Rachel’s Money Tip:

Rachel Rodgers:
So my everyday money tip is to pay to be productive. So pay coaches, pay people to babysit you, pay people or pay for space to get things done. So I recently wrote a book and the way that I wrote the book, because I live in a household with a bunch of children, big family, we also have my mother-in-law lives with us. Like there's a lot of people in my house and so I went to Hawaii for a week. This was pre-pandemic and got half of my book done and then-

Bobbi Rebell:
Half?

Rachel Rodgers:
Half of it and then when I got back to town, the only way I got the other half done was by going to a hotel locally and getting the rest of it done. And then I would meet with a book coach every Wednesday. And she would basically sit there and babysit me on Zoom so that I would write. Yeah. But I mean, to some degree I completely get that. I mean, I was joking. My family interrupted me like 10 times all with really good things. They wanted to share their opinion on something. They wanted my opinion on something. They wanted it to tell me something. It was all good things, but it took me hours to watch a 40 minute video that was something for work because I couldn't find a place to not be interrupted and people mean well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Rachel Rodgers:
It's a good thing that they want to talk to you, but you just can't always get stuff done and leaving sometimes is the best thing. Leaving temporarily, you know what I mean?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Rachel Rodgers:
And when you pay for that space, I think sometimes you value it more. Now we obviously can't go sit at a coffee shop the same way we could before, but even that you're not paying for, I think when you pay for someone to watch you, you take it a lot more seriously.

Rachel Rodgers:
You know what someone said to me years ago, and I will never forget this phrase. They said, when people pay, they pay attention.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Bobbi Rebell:
start thinking about ending the timeout, if you haven't already. When the pandemic first started, it was totally understandable that we weren't going to be very productive, so timeout made a lot of sense. But at a certain point, we need to find a way despite the fact that the situation very much still stinks for many of us and could get worse, we got to do it. Rachel talks about even paying to be productive. And I agree if you can do it, do it. If it's not in your budget, well try to get creative. Maybe create blocks of time where if you can't leave your home, everyone else does so that you can get some work done. Or go to sleep earlier than everyone, a few days a week so you can get up and work before they get up. Maybe have an accountability buddy that does it with you and you text each other to make sure you're getting up. You can make excuses that are totally valid, good reasons, but that's not going to get you to your goal. Life has to go on and so does your path to success.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Bobbi Rebell:
don't assume your dreams will always be just dreams. Rachel never imagined moving south and opening up a ranch and a retreat. In fact, that wasn't even in the dream category at a certain point, but here she is. Dream big and then break it down into small steps that you can work towards. Even if the overall timeline has to be extended, just keep making progress and don't forget to document it all.

Episode Links:

• Rachel’s website - www.helloseven.co

Follow Rachel!

• Instagram - @hello7co

• Instagram - @therodgersranch

• Instagram - @rachrodgersesq

• Facebook - @Hello7Co

• Facebook - @rachelrodgerslaw

• Twitter - @rachrodgersesq

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Claudia Chan, author of How We Rise and founder of the She Summit shares her experiences growing up as the child of immigrants who would hide money in all kinds of unusual places- because they didn’t trust the banks. Plus her everyday money tip to help us save money shopping online. 

Claudia’s Money Story:

Claudia Chan:
Yeah. I grew up with a very cash, I guess, focused family. My parents had come to America, not with much. My dad was a bartender, and eventually made friends with folks on Wall Street in the fifties and opened up his first Chinese restaurant. They ended up having a few over the years, but, let's see, when I was a kid growing up ... because they didn't trust banks at the time. And so they would literally hide cash in all different places of the household, so whether it was pots and pans, and inside our pillowcases. So we would literally, even the standard sized pillowcase, my mom would take two standard sizes and stick them into the pillowcase and then put wads of cash between those pillows. I would literally sleep and find money underneath my pillows. But yeah, that was definitely a signature aspect of the family that I grew up in. And I'm sure lots of mom and pop shop, immigrant sisters and brothers out there could relate to that story.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you ever talk to them about this?

Claudia Chan:
It was really my normal. Again, you are the environment you're in. Obviously, when I was a little bit older, I would say, mom, this is not safe. Are you sure this is safe? And she would just go into this whole lecture around you got to be careful with these big banks, these American banks.

Bobbi Rebell:
It sounds so unusual to many of us, but you're saying that was normal among your community.

Claudia Chan:
Yeah. Diversity, right, is such a big conversation today and has been for, I know, many years now. But when you think about America is such a melting pot of so many immigrants and so many immigrant families, and the diversity of people here are ... many of us are mutts, right? We have such different backgrounds and come from such different cultures. And I think that when you think about your local dry cleaning store, your local restaurant, your local deli, your local mom and pop shops, a lot of those were started by immigrant families that had different types of practices, right? So, it's very cultural, and I think we forget how diverse this country is. And I think today's cultural and political events are reminding us of that as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
And we do tend to make assumptions about how people approach money and their relationship with money. How did it impact you as you were growing up into becoming a financial grownup?

Claudia Chan:
Now, I'm not sure if I'm actually a financial grownup yet.

Bobbi Rebell:
You own a pretty big business, my friend.

Claudia Chan:
Well, just by actually giving you that response is a great segue into answering the question. So, to be invited to a podcast where we're going to talk about my relationship to money in 10 minutes is in and of itself a difficult task, because money has really been probably, I just turned 45 years old, the most invisible and yet profound aspect of my life. That I realized today at 45 into my older years that really has so impacted in many ways what's driven me into building the platform and making the impact I have in the world. But at the same time, also been a massive barrier or a massive just challenge in my life because I realized that my parents, for them, money was survival. Money was safety because they lost everything by fleeing from China to Taiwan and coming to the States for the American dream. And they didn't come with here with much.

Claudia Chan:
And so I was so raised with money is really at the center of success. And all the work that I've done building S.H.E. Summit and writing my How We Rise book, and all the leadership work that I've done to advance she, he equity, which is what S.H.E stands for, and creating a better humanity is really success is actually not money. Success is actually freedom, and it is wellbeing, it is peace of mind, it is joy. And I think that what happened to me and I think what happens and consumes so many individuals out there in the world is that we make money our center and the goal, where really money is just the tool to get the freedom, the tool to get the wellbeing.

Claudia Chan:
But the thing is, if you make chasing money your goal, then you're never really going to be happy. I would say that's the quick answer to that question, is really you got to check what your relationship is to money. And really get clear on yourself, whether you're 20, 30, 50, 70, however old you are listening to the story, because some of the most wealthy, financially wealthy people in the world are the least happy.

Claudia’s Money Lesson:

Claudia Chan:

I think that really finding the right team, whether or not it's a financial advisor, and whoever is going to teach you about money and help support you. There's so many aspects to managing your money, right? There's your investments. And there's, do you buy the house now? Or what kind of house do you buy? And they're just like private school or public school. There's just so many choices. And I just think that when we talk about financial organizations, I think it's choose individuals that you really, really trust and get you, that you have the right energy with. It's like a best friend, right? Or it's somebody that is a person that really is the right person for you to be that long-term partner. Because I think having the right people around us will give us the right ... and obviously doing the work as well, right, learning as much as you can. That will give you the wisdom and the tools and strategies you need over time to manage your money well. I can trust organizations if I trust the people.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. That's so important because organizations, I mean, I'm stating the obvious, but they are made up of people.

Claudia’s Money Tip:

Claudia Chan:

So obviously, I am less into shopping today, with a three and five year old, for myself as much as I used to be. I care less about material stuff than I did when I was in my twenties and thirties, now that I'm raising a family. And, again, back to the what matters the most in life question. But when I do shop, whether it's like J Crew, or I go to gilt.com a lot, or if there's a Alexis Bittar, a jewelry store that I love. But I always go to the filter section and I search low to high first to pull up to start at a place where it's the least expensive option. Because again, sometimes I feel like I just, for me, it's more about the transaction, the dopamine shot that you get, that you crave on wanting to make transactions, and wanting to acquire and wanting to buy something. Right?

Claudia Chan:
It's like, Oh, I need a massage. Oh, I want to buy something. And so it's just something that sometimes it's just buying something for the sake of making the transaction. So, that's just one tool that I've used, filter low to high just to keep it simple. And not waste money, because really at the end of the day, whether you need something new, go into your closet and chances are, you probably don't need that item.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I think that's a great thing because it's so easy. And I bet, in most cases, if we start paying attention, they start high to low in many of them because they want you to buy the highest priced thing, so that makes so much sense.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

if your parents are making big financial mistakes, like hiding money in household goods around the house indefinitely, in large amounts, try to help them out. I get the mistrust of banks, but money needs to grow and be invested, or it will be worth less. Please, protect your parents' money.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

I what to add to Claudia's everyday money tip about searching from low to high when you are buying things online. The sorting feature is so important. One thing I have started doing more of when I buy online, which so many of us are doing during the pandemic, is actually really taking the time to read reviews from verified buyers.

Episode Links:

• Claudia’s website - www.shesummit.com

• Claudia’s book - This Is How We Rise

Follow Claudia!

• Twitter - @shesummitweek

• Facebook - @SHESummit

• Instagram - @claudiachanwagner

• Instagram - @shesummit

• LinkedIn - @claudiachan

• YouTube

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Kara Goldin returns to the podcast to talk about how she broke (some) rules, got past business FOMO,  and never relied on simple check lists to bring HINT to the success it is today. Her new book, Undaunted, Overcoming Doubts + Doubters is part autobiography, part CEO manual and part therapy session for anyone aspiring to reach their career and life goals. 

“You can do it. You might need to go slower.”

Bobbi Rebell:
You're having fun, but you also had a lot of work along the way. You had a lot of kids along the way. There was a lot happening. Someone says this, like life is happening when you're not paying attention, that kind of thing. I mean, you were paying attention, but your life was happening while you were building this business. And now, I met you only a couple of years ago through a networking group that we're in, and I only know you as the CEO of Hint, which is a brand that I see everywhere. So I didn't know this whole backstory. I mean, tell us a little bit about that and the journey and the idea that so many people see you now and don't know the backstory and your decision to write the book.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, including John. So John Legend is an investor in the company. It was funny. When he read the book, he said, "Okay, what was so fun is that I kept turning the pages, and I said, 'Okay, this is when she shuts the company down,' and then I realized that you haven't shut the company down and you're doing really well, and so you got through all of these crazy times."

Kara Goldin:
I started Hint 15 years ago, no experience in this industry. So my book is called Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters. And really, it's about the journey of building something because I really believe that, especially in today's world, people [inaudible 00:04:07] you don't need a lot of experience to just go out and do things. What you need to do is have permission from yourself to go and try.

Kara Goldin:
The reality is, is that a lot of people who have built companies, including myself, they're smart people, but they didn't have experience. They had curiosity and they were okay with potentially failing. They went out and just did.

Kara Goldin:
And so, it's the story of building Hint, but really more. It's a story of resilience and doing something that I really wanted to do. And you mentioned kids. I started this company when I had four kids under the age of six. I've sort of come out of the tunnel a little bit and happy to say that I really believe being a parent who has worked with these kids and they've seen this amazing business being built, now, I can't even imagine that they won't be entrepreneurs themself because they've just seen that, while this is hard, they could potentially go out and do whatever they want to do if they find a problem to solve and something that they're facing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's very much a family business. I mean, you would put them to work, let's be clear.

“There is no checklist. There is a vision and there is a willingness to go and try and a resilience.”

Kara Goldin:
Definitely. Yeah, no, I remember early on that my sales guys in New York, my son went out with one of them and he said he's way harder like if the bottles aren't turned the right way, if the labels aren't turned the right way. And so just little things like that, like I always smile when I think about this because although my dad was kind of a frustrated entrepreneur working inside of a large company, I never really got kind of the hands-on learning that I think my kids have gotten, and understanding what things are important. And also understanding that you can actually go up against big industry and win. You can also be a female CEO and grow a company in a significant way.

Kara Goldin:
So I think all of those lessons are really important, especially for people who are sitting here saying, "Oh my gosh, I can't do this. I've got little kids at home," and they're finding excuses as to why they can't do it. You can do it, you might need to go slower.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that I usually do with authors is I ask authors to put together checklists. You said to me, "No, there's no checklist." Talk about why entrepreneurs shouldn't have these checklists that we all love to have, like five easy ways to make sure your business is a super success. Tie it up with a bow.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I've had people say to me, usually it's kind of wannabe entrepreneurs who really want the one or two or five things that they ultimately need to do in order to start this business. And when I talk to entrepreneurs in every single category, every single industry, it's kind of the same thing. And that's sort of the element of making an incredible entrepreneur is that there was no checklist. And when they go back and they think, "Well, okay, I kind of went left, but then while I was going left, I actually figured out that I should go right because this was working."

Kara Goldin:
And so, most people who are really looking for a checklist probably are not entrepreneurs. And that's okay too. I talk about it in the book that you can join entrepreneurs. Just because you're not going to go start a company, it doesn't mean that you can't go and take on an incredible amount of responsibility within a company. But I think that there is no checklist. There's a vision and there's a willingness to go and try, and a resilience that is definitely apparent.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're in a recession now. Many people's businesses have taken hits that they've never saw coming. You had to guide Hint through the last recession and were asked to make some tough choices and you came out strong and a lot of similar companies did not. What are you doing now to weather this recession that you can share with us and maybe give other entrepreneurs some inspiration for getting through this very challenging business time?

Kara Goldin:
I think the number one thing that I learned from dealing with other difficult business times is really focusing on what is working. And so during a time when people are sitting here almost frozen, right, thinking, "Oh gosh, nothing is working," something has to be working. There has to be one thing that is really working. And so can you figure out how to throw the gas on that and get some traction?

Kara Goldin:
And there's always going to be things along the way that are out of your control, that you really cannot predict when those things will come back, if they'll ever come back. But in the meantime, by focusing on those things that ultimately are working, like for us, it was the direct to consumer business, you're able to not only potentially bring in more revenue to your company, but also, when you have something that is working, it's very motivating, not only for you, but also for your team to say, "Okay, everybody, start working on this because it's really working."

“There has to be one thing that is really working and so can you figure out how to throw the gas on that and get some traction.”

Kara Goldin:
And so I think that that is such a key thing during this time for everybody to be focusing on. Find that thing that's ultimately working.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also, you talk about direct to consumer sales. You really hadn't focused that much on your website and sort of owning your own sales until you dealt with companies like Amazon that would not share their data. I mean, that's an important thing is owning the information to understand your customer.

Kara Goldin:
A hundred percent. It really goes back to the purpose of the company. I didn't start this company because I wanted to run a beverage company. I started it because I actually saw that by making the shift away from diet soda to drinking water that tasted better, I got healthier and my family got healthier. And so I thought, if I can actually get to those people who are trying to do exactly what I was trying to do, then that would ultimately help me to grow my business.

Kara Goldin:
But again, Jeff Bezos, we love Amazon, we still sell through Amazon. For us, amazon is just like another retailer, just like a Whole Foods or Kroger or anybody else that we sell through that ultimately owns their own data. But we wanted the option to be able to communicate and get to know our customer as well. And that's really, especially during a time like COVID where out of stock situations and stores on Amazon as well, and everybody was just trying to keep up, we thought we can just go directly from our warehouse and ship directly to these consumers.

Kara Goldin:
And so that business has almost tripled since March for us. It's been really crazy. And again, because we have that relationship with the consumer. It's not that we are shutting down any of those other relationships, it's just that they're trying to manage not just us, but a lot of other vendors as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
But I think that lesson goes to the heart of everything. Whether it's your business or your life, it's important to have that control.

Kara Goldin:
Totally.

Bobbi Rebell:
And one other final topic I just wanted to touch on. Towards the end of the book, you talk a little bit about FOMO. Because you're in California, you see a lot of entrepreneurs, I'm sorry, not entrepreneurs, you see a lot of people working for big companies and making all this money as employees because of stock options and stuff. This is going on while you, I have this vision of you and your family like hauling these boxes and boxes of Hint water to go to stores yourself. Because a lot of this, you're doing yourself. You're funding it yourself. Talk about FOMO when you're building something, not necessarily even an entrepreneurial venture, but just in life. We tend to look at other people and feel like everyone's having this grand thing and it's so much harder for us.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, I think it really just goes back to knowing your purpose. Yes, you will see people with nicer houses and better clothes from Barneys or whatever. I guess there's not Barneys anymore-

Bobbi Rebell:
Barneys went out of business, so there's a lesson right there.

Kara Goldin:
I've been so busy. I have not really focused on that at the moment, but it's really understanding what your purpose is. And again, just going back to the mission, and that's the most important thing. Because there will always be people who have nicer cars and houses and whatever, but if you're doing something that is meaningful, and I think health is incredibly meaningful to people. I think it's the number one thing that I see everyone focusing on today. Like nobody actually wants to get this disease. Wherever you live, how much money you have, how many stock options you have, everyone wants to stay healthy. And I think having a company that is ultimately focusing on that is something that I've reminded myself every single day is a good thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is a good thing. And thank you for all that you do. And by the way, people should understand, it was a natural brand extension to do different flavors of water, to do carbonated water and so on, but then your other brand extensions have not been necessarily about beverages. So even though we think of Hint big picture as a beverage company, you're now into suntan lotion, which you, again, had personal reasons, which people should read the book to find out more about, and then you're in deodorant. And is it antiperspirant or deodorant? Because you actually clarify the difference in the book as well.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah. So it's deodorant, but moving away from antiperspirant because all antiperspirant contains aluminum, which, going back to kind of a family health issue around Alzheimer's that I was grappling with, I saw that we could actually solve a problem for most consumers. Most consumers don't actually understand the difference between deodorant and antiperspirant-

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, and why they shouldn't have it until it's too late. The hardest thing for consumers today is even when you shop at the best stores or you see celebrities holding a lot of these products, you just don't ultimately really understand how that could impact your health until it is too late. And so I thought it's my responsibility to actually try to show people what the difference is.

Kara Goldin:
And what I learned really by doing those products too about just the overall mission of the company is it's not just to help consumers, but it's also to help categories and other brands, like suntan category and also the personal care category as a whole. Because I really believe that if we can actually lead and some of these other large brands that are not really doing great for the consumer follows, that's okay too. That to me is incredibly motivating to know that companies were actually following us to actually create products, for example, that don't have oxybenzone in them. Which is true. I mean, we were not seeing products prior to us launching sunscreen that really called attention on the front of the package to say no oxybenzone. That to me is leading in an industry.

Kara Goldin:
Little Hint. That's what's so crazy. And that really is what the impact of what entrepreneurism is. It's not just about starting a company for money, it's actually creating change. And that is what everybody can do. And everybody sees holes in their life that can be solved. And if you really think that you can go and solve those problems, you have an idea, just try and figure it out. It doesn't matter if you don't have experience. And that's really what you're going to hear out of my book and hopefully will motivate people to go and create other companies. That's what we need.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the book is Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters.

Episode Links:

• Kara’s website - www.drinkhint.com

• Kara’s book Undaunted - www.drinkhint.com/FinancialGrownup

Follow Kara + Hint!

• Instagram - @hint

• Facebook - @hint

• Twitter - @hint

• Pinterest - @hintwater

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Certified Financial Planner shares his advice on how to get your finances ready for the future including some unconventional advice that you likely have not heard before, and how to face tough money choices. 

5 Tips to Figure Out Your Financial Future

1. Don’t spend more than you make

2. Pay yourself first

3. Establish an emergency fund

4. Think long term

“This is going to sound crass but don’t go to your friends because they know very little more than you do, so this is one area where you need to go to experts”
-Brian Ursu, author of Now What? on getting investing advice”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Brian talked about the importance of educating yourself- and that friends are not always the best sources - because they are not experts. . But friends CAN be a great motivator- so consider choosing a book about money to read with your friends and discuss. it can be Brian’s or you can go through my author interviews here on the podcast, or- just ask friends what they like. But read books that resonate and then get together -socially distanced or virtually and have that conversation as peers.

“Your future self gets here a lot quicker than you had planned or thought about.”

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Brian talked about the app that makes you look older- and how it gets us to think about our future self. After you do that- go pull up a picture of younger you- and think about how you see money differently with the grownup life experience you have now had.

“I never in my wildest dreams thought of a global pandemic as a reason to have an emergency fund but here we are.”

Episode Links:

• Brian’s website - www.brianursu.com

Follow Brian!

• Instagram - @nowwhat240

• Facebook - @Nowwhatthebook

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.