Getting a huge salary jump is awesome, but even with a big jump Paychecks & Balances podcast host, Rich Jones had some lessons to learn when his compensation skyrocketed. The entrepreneur behind the Show Starter shares his experiences, and how we can all get not just the best pay but also the best jobs. 

Rich’s Money Story:

Rich Jones:
Yeah, so by day I work at Google. I've been there for over five years. I'm moved to a tech startup called ScrollMotion, and it was the shortest role in my career, I'd only been there for about nine months. I actually got an email from a recruiter at Google and I thought it was spam. Even though my ultimate goal was to move to a big tech company, I kind of had this self-doubt of, "Oh wow, they're reaching out to me. Is this really a real role? Why are they reaching out to me in New York when this position is based in California?"

Rich Jones:
I went through the interview process and it probably took about three to four months, but then ultimately I ended up getting the job. I made the transition from New York City to California. And part of what I realized throughout the process that I think is really important, one is the importance of negotiation. And I learned this more for the role that I had at the tech startup because I won't say how, but I came across how much the person in that role before me made and it was a lot more than I had actually asked for.

Rich Jones:
And part of what I did not consider is that I worked at a nonprofit. Nonprofits typically pay a little bit less and when I saw an increase, I was so focused on one, getting out of that nonprofit because I realized that role wasn't for me, that I had this fear of not wanting to mess up the opportunities. I said, "Hey, this is a pay increase, this is great." Only to get there and find out that I actually could have asked for a lot more.

Rich Jones:
And what I've learned from tech companies like Google and Facebook, they really do try to do right by people, and instead of kind of negotiating people downward, they want to make sure that they bring people in at a fair market rate because they ultimately don't want to lose these people because the cost of hiring and losing someone is so high. Part of what I learned in the process is the importance of negotiation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell me more about the actual moment you got the job offer. Did they say the number first or did you?

Rich Jones:
They said the number first and it far exceeded the number that I had in mind.

Bobbi Rebell:
Was this a phone conversation? What, where, how is this happening?

Rich Jones:
It was a phone conversation. I was ready to go back and forth and I had my numbers in mind, didn't realize that I was undercutting myself in the process and they made an offer that honestly had me floored. It was a no brainer.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, but did you ask for more?

Rich Jones:
I did not because it far exceeded what I was even looking for and I felt completely comfortable about the offer. The lesson here is having a number in mind and I made sure that I did research when I looked at this role to make sure that I wasn't going to get undercut. When they came back with a number that was far greater than what I had in mind, I could've went back and forth with them. And there are situations where I would say, "Hey, ask for more," but it was so much greater than what I thought it was going to be. Everything else about it made sense that it made sense for me to ultimately accept the role.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you find out the data about the previous employee that they were making more and about how much more was it, like a percentage-wise? Give me some sort of scale.

Rich Jones:
Oh, it was about 20 to $25,000 more. It was one of those things where I was doing some research in the system for a project and I saw what they were actually making. And I had this Wow! Moment of, "This is not good. I could have asked for a lot more." Part of what I've learned in my current role, especially because I work in staffing or worked in staffing for a number of years, even if I probably had asked for more for the role at Google I probably wouldn't have gotten it. Because I think one of the other mistakes I made is that at the time they would ask you what you were making today, and companies sometime anchor on that. Once we tell them what you're making, they just try to do a percentage increase. One thing I probably would have done differently is not actually share that salary information and just said come back-

Bobbi Rebell:
You shared it before they gave you the offer?

Rich Jones:
I did, I did. I did. And more states now are implementing policies or laws where companies can not ask for salary information specifically for that reason. I actually encourage people, if you're talking to a company and they ask what you're making today, that you not tell them that actual number and see what they come back with. If they come back with a number that's lower or even if it's a number that's right where you want to be, try the approach of, "Hey, I'm super excited about this offer. If we can get to X number, I'll be willing to sign this offer today." And that recruiter is incentivized to go back and see what they can do to ultimately get you that number that they want.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you to take action after getting this information, did you go ask for a raise?

Rich Jones:
No, I did not ask for a raise because for me, my ultimate goal was to move to a company like Google or Facebook and it happened sooner than I expected and that's why I say it caught me off guard and I'm like, "Wow, they're reaching out to me." Because to me it was, "I'll get a couple of years of experience, I'll go and apply. Not this company will find me on LinkedIn because my profile is optimized and then contact me." I'd say over the course of three years, my total compensation increased by 200 to 250%.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Rich Jones:
And while at that-

Bobbi Rebell:
Now wait, let me ask you, was that prompted by you becoming a better negotiator because you now have this information or they're just a generous company and that's kind of what they gave you?

Rich Jones:
I think it was more so prompted by things like updating my LinkedIn profile so that they could find me in the first place because there is applying for jobs, but then there's also recruiters who were out there every day looking for talent, scouring LinkedIn. I was that recruiter. Part of the insight knowledge I had was how a recruiter would go about looking for somebody who has a particular set of skills.

Rich Jones:
A big part for me was updating my LinkedIn profile so that if a recruiter was looking for someone who had a combination of HR experience and recruiting experience, and they had this profession in human resource certification, my profile would pop up. While it wasn't as heavy on the negotiation side, there were things that I did to optimize my profile and optimize myself so that if people were looking for someone with my skills, I would pop up in that search and I attribute it a lot more to that.

Rich Jones:
I think part of what's helped me maximize my raises and my increase, it's not so much that I had to negotiate a higher pay, it's that I documented my value and I documented the things that I did to bring more people in, the things that I did to a higher level of impact and then that was ultimately factored into my bonus percentage, which is on a scale. And that was ultimately factored into the salary increase, which is also one scale. It's funny going from being an individual contributor to a manager and then having to go through that same process, where if an employee didn't tell me all the things they did, I had so many things going on so I could not remember everything that they did.

Rich Jones:
But there would be times where they'd say, "Hey, I did this and I did that." And I'd be like, "Oh yeah, you did do this, and you did do that. You should be an exceeds expectation, versus a meets expectations." A lot of it is on the individual to make sure that they're documenting and that they're in a position to be able to show the value that they've added. I had it for that conversation, but also if an opportunity came up outside of the company, I had those things documented, which would then become answers for interview questions or things that I could put in my LinkedIn profile to further show my value and that I'm a high performer.

“I actually encourage people, if you are talking to a company and they ask what you are making today that you not tell that number and see what they come back with.”

Rich’s Money Lesson:

Rich Jones:
There's an article that came out from Glassdoor, a couple of years ago. For someone starting at a salary of $50,000, the difference in not negotiating a $5,000 increase when they're first starting could be the difference of $600,000 over the course of their working career. What people don't think about, we talk about compound interest when it comes to your savings account or when it comes to stocks and investing, but we don't talk about the compound effect of negotiating a higher salary.

Rich Jones:
Because if you start by negotiating up, then every salary that you negotiate going forward or every increase that you get going forward is going to be a lot higher. There are people, they're actually scared to negotiate because they think that the company's going to pull the offer. And I can tell you from being on the employer's side, no recruiter or no company is going to rescind offer because you asked for something. In fact, we expect you to ask for something.

“If you start by negotiating up, then every salary that you negotiate going forward or every increase that you get going forward is going to be higher.”

Rich’s Money Tip:

Rich Jones:
A couple of apps that I really love today. One is Tiller. It allows you to connect your bank accounts and I'm someone that loves spreadsheets. And they have these templates and these customized spreadsheets where if you connect your accounts, it'll automatically pull in the information. You can see what you're spending on by category, if you're over or under or at budget. And there's also a feature where I get an email daily that anytime there's been a transaction, whether money coming in or money going out, I see that first thing in the morning.

Rich Jones:
And there've been times where I've said, "Wow, did I really just spend that much on food?" Or, "Wow, I forgot that I had that subscription." That's one service that I use to kind of see where my spending is going. But the other service that I really like, it's called Truebill, and initially this started out as an app that would monitor all your subscriptions and tell you where you could have a subscription canceled, where they can negotiate on your behalf to bring that subscription costs down.

Rich Jones:
And just even today before we recorded this interview, I've realized that I was getting double-billed for a particular subscription and now I'm in the process of having them resolve it for me so I don't have to deal with the process of calling in and talking to multiple people and going back and forth and sending emails. Pairing up apps, one, I have something that tells me where my money is going on a day to day basis, which keeps me sharp. And then two, I have a service that's monitoring my subscriptions, but it's also giving me a breakdown of how I'm spending for the month. And I can see that category by category and it kind of tells me if I'm doing too much, if I'm going over budget and I found both of those to be super helpful with each other.

“I can tell you from being on the employer side,  no company is going to rescind the offer because you asked for something. In fact we expect you to ask for something. ”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

Manage up. Remember Rich, said to prepare for performance reviews, that's just part of it. This is all about communication with your supervisors. Those are the people who decide how much you get paid. Don't assume they know and in some cases even understand what you do and how valuable you have become to the company.

Financial grownup tip number two:

I love what Rich said about the very first salary being an anchor to ongoing salary negotiations. He is 100% correct, but at the same time, don't assume you are worth more than they're willing to pay. With the first job, you don't always bring as much to the table as you will in future jobs. Yes, you probably went to school and studied, but let's face it, in most cases the companies are also going to put a lot of resources into training you. Just factor in what you will learn as an employee when you are in that negotiation and be thoughtful about your asks.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Rich’s website - paychecksandbalances.com/

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Cate Luzio had no problem getting her boss to agree to give her a raise, but was caught off guard when asked how much she wanted. Cate shares exactly how she was able to come back with her number in just 24 hours, and how we can all get paid as much as possible. 

Cate's money story:

So I spent many years in corporate investment banking, but a large stint of it at JP Morgan. I was living in London, I was already at a managing director level, I was managing a big business within the corporate bank. I was, as women do, getting ready to prepare for that year end discussion and to ask for a raise. I go into my boss's office who was amazing and as I'm starting to already defend my accomplishments and list them out within 30 seconds of me speaking, he says, "Cate stop talking." I thought, "Oh, God, what did I do wrong?".

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I would be worried.

Cate Luzio:
I thought he was going to say, "You're out.".

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, no.

Cate Luzio:
And then he said, "What's your number?"

Bobbi Rebell:
Meaning?

Cate Luzio:
Meaning what's the number?

Bobbi Rebell:
How much do you want?

Cate Luzio:
Exactly. Because, one, he didn't have time to waste, and I will tell you that. And two, he was like, "Let's get to the point. You're going to come in here and give me all your accomplishments, but I'm your manager, I know your accomplishments, I know what you've done for the business. So tell me how much more money you want to make." And I had never even thought of the number, which is embarrassing to one extent and then proves a point to the other around that women often are ready to just talk about, list out what they've done and how they've made a value to the company versus going in and asking for that number and then being prepared to defend why they've asked for that. And so, he said, "I give you 24 hours and you come back to me with a number.".

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, no pressure. So, what do you do with that 24 hours?

Cate Luzio:
I knew that my team, more broadly the leadership team, were all a bunch of men, and that was fine, they were great, but I couldn't ask them. I had come from a different business about a year prior to that within JP Morgan, but I knew I should be making a big jump. So, what did I do? I called a bunch of my guy friends at other banks. I just said, "Here's the situation, I just need to know what you make."

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, let me just ask you. Did you just randomly pick up the actual, I hate to say this, the actual phone, meaning you didn't text them, you didn't email them.

Cate Luzio:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
But you were picking up the phone.

Cate Luzio:
Picked up the phone.

Bobbi Rebell:
And putting them on the spot.

Cate Luzio:
Putting them on the spot. And I had done that throughout my career. I think women don't realize this, and I think it's a lot in the banking sector, that when you get your bonus everyone's pounding their chest, like, "This is what I got." And guys do. They tell each other what they make. So they benchmark early on. And I had been doing that early on in my career. And then as I got more senior it was like, "Oh, well I'm getting more jobs and I'm getting these big promotions. This is great." And I had forgotten about I should be getting paid for what I do.

And so that's what I did. I spent that night calling and talking. And I remember I met with one of the guys that I knew at a big bank competitor, and hashing it out. And walked in the next day with the number.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let me just stop you there. What was your take on the numbers they were getting? What did you learn just from those numbers about where you are relative to them?

Cate Luzio:
Oh, much lower. I mean considerable amount lower. And again, remember, I think it didn't have to do with the company not wanting to pay me. It was commensurate with I had been at the firm for a while. You don't normally get huge bumps and raises unless you come from another firm. If you've made a jump that normally happens with your bonus or your variable compensation. So that was not an expectation that someone would walk in and get a very large raise. I knew that from the hundreds of people that I had managed.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you hadn't asked.

Cate Luzio:
And I had never asked. A part of me thinks, "Oh, I should've asked." And then part of me thinks, "I'd only been in that particular role for less than a year. So, was it warranted?" Yes, because not only of my performance, but my potential to continue to perform in that role, and bigger roles. And so, we hear it a lot, men are promoted on potential, women are promoted on performance. This wasn't even about promotion. This was about getting a fair compensation.

And so, when I did that benchmarking and talking to my male peers, I realized I was making a lot less. And so the next day I went in and he said, "Do you have your number?" I said, "Yeah, this is my number." He said, "It's not unreasonable. I don't know what we can do, but it's not unreasonable." To which I walked out thinking that's a huge win itself that I didn't come in and him say that's absolutely never going to happen, which, by the way, that happens quite a bit.

And so, three months later when you actually get your comp information and your bonus, they hand you a paper, and that has everything written. And so, I have no poker face. And so I immediately pull up the paper in front of my face, because I don't want him to see if I'm crying or if I'm smiling. Because if it was going to be a bad number I was going to be really upset. And the number was not the number that I asked for, it was even more.

So, as I'm putting the paper down, I'm smiling. What was even better was my boss was smiling even bigger than I was. And his exact words were, "You perform for us, we perform for you." He said, "This is probably never going to happen again in your career unless you leave and go to another firm, but you've demonstrated not only performance but potential and we value that."

“Don’t just go into any or these discussions with a list of your accomplishments. Be prepared first to demonstrate why you are valuable to the company. And also know your worth. Have that number going in.”

Cate’s money lesson:

So the lesson is don't just go into any of these discussions with a list of your accomplishments. Be prepared first to demonstrate why you are valuable to the company. And also know your worth. Right? So already have that number going in, because the worst thing that can happen is, one, they quiz you on why you should get that money or that promotion. Then you're ready, you've got your accomplishments, you've got what you've done for the business, you've got how you've demonstrated your value.

Cate Luzio:
But also what's the worst that can happen? They say no. And then you decide whether you can live with that no, you continue to fight for that compensation or that role or that promotion, or you go elsewhere.

Bobbi Rebell:
Have you ever gotten a no, and how did you deal with it if you did?

Cate Luzio:
Oh, absolutely gotten a no. Listen, companies are under lots of constraints, they're under huge budgetary issues, so there are a lot of nos. And I've had to give a lot of nos to people too. I think the way I combated that or came back from that was, "Is this still the firm that I want to work for? Is their rationale correct? Do I get that? Do I look at the overall earnings of the company and where I fit into that?".

Cate Luzio:
So, when you work for a large publicly traded company that's in the Fortune 150, they have a lot of mouths to feed. But you still, at the end of the day, have to feel comfortable with the answer that they give. And, for me, I never left a company because they didn't pay me. So I looked at where else there were value they were adding in my life and my career. Was there a career path? Were they providing opportunities? And that was big for me around the delivering of those other opportunities, but also investing in me as an employee, making me a better asset to them.

Bobbi Rebell:
I like that. Because sometimes people might work for, let's say, a startup or something and there just isn't the money.

Cate Luzio:
Absolutely.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you have to look at other things.

Cate Luzio:
You have to look at other things and what drives you. If money is the only thing that drives you, then that's not going to be the place. But there's the role, there's are you managing a team? Are you part of other projects within the organization? Are you moving up quickly, as you mentioned, like in a startup or even in intrepreneurial environment within a big company where it's not just about the compensation? I do firmly believe you have to be fairly compensated, but I think there's a lot of factors that play into that.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. Now you are well compensated. I should say, when you worked for other people you were well com... Now you work for yourself. When you worked for other people you were certainly well compensated. You could certainly do the shopping that you wanted to do and have the wardrobe that you want to have. But just because you have the money doesn't mean you should spend it all on clothing. And that brings us to a everyday money tip from you. Because this is really interesting. We talk a lot about saving money because you have to or to reach certain goals. Sometimes you're saving money because maybe spending it just doesn't make sense.

“I decided to self fund. I wanted to look at my members of the community of Luminary as my investors, versus maximizing value for an investor.”

Cate's everyday money tip:

As someone who did make quite a bit of money, and I actually reinvested a lot of that money into my company because I self funded, one of the things I knew is that my disposable income I needed to make it very small, because I was investing it into the company. And I was a big shopper. I needed retail therapy. So I actually now rent most of my clothes. I do it mostly with Rent the Runway, but it's exciting to see all of these other new players out there because it gives you so much more variety and diversity of your clothes. And for me it ends up really saving a lot of money for me. Also, I get the thrill of shopping online or even in person because they have stores, but without the guilt of spending all that money and then wasting it because I wear those clothes one time and then never wear them again.

Bobbi Rebell:
I second that. I actually also use Rent the Runway, and I find that to be very true. And I also think you can wear things. Sometimes fashions can be a little bit silly, like we had weird sleeves happening a year ago. And you can try that and you don't have to own that because we know some things are just not going to have staying power. Right?

Cate Luzio:
Absolutely. And some things you may think one day they flatter you and the next they don't. So, why keep it in your closet?

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial Grownup tip number one:

Cate was able to get the intel on her number in just 24 hours, because she had spent years building strong relationships. To do a quick turnaround, you need to have everything in place, and to do that you need to be playing the long game when it comes to those relationships.

Financial Grownup tip number two:

One of my favorite parts of this interview is when Cate got really candid talking about how she deals with nos. First of all, if Cate Luzio is getting no’s, we can all feel a lot better about our setbacks. But she never talks about storming out or being confrontational. Instead, it's about taking a big picture look and being tuned in to why that no happened. It could be you and your performance, and if so, you need to be self-aware enough to own that and to take action.

Sometimes we all have so much ra-ra, go for it in our lives that we're not really that honest when maybe we aren't deserving of that. I'm not saying that's true all that often, but it could sometimes be true. And we need to be realistic about whether the assessment of us might have some good points. But it can also be things that are out of your control, having to do with where the business is financially. That's not really on you, but it's still your reality. Keep your cool, don't make brash emotional decisions.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Cate’s website - https://www.luminary-nyc.com/

• Cate’s Podcast - Come Sit At Our Table

Follow Cate!

• Instagram - @BeALuminary

• Facebook - @BeALuminary

• Twitter - @BeALuminary

• LinkedIn - @BeALuminary

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“Understand, if you are a partial owner in a company what that actually entails and what your rights are.”

Kate Edwards, spent a year working as a founder with no salary and then a day before she would get the big pay day, she was shown the door.

You think it would never happen to you- but it can.

Kate's money story

Kate Edwards:
My money story relates to a previous startup that I was at and, you know, although of course I wasn't dating this person, as you mentioned it did end up becoming something where you think everything's all well and good at the beginning and then at the end it kind of turned sour. So I had started a company a few years back that was in the dating tech space, if you will, and my co-founder was great. He was a really great guy, you know, I had a couple other people working on the project and we essentially were working nights and weekends when we started. I eventually ended up quitting my job to work on the project full time and we worked together, building this product, for almost a year.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you have legal paperwork when you quit your job? How was that structured?

Kate Edwards:
Yeah, actually we did, you know, we worked with lawyers and we all wrote the paperwork together. So in theory, we all knew what we were getting into conceptually, but I realized I ultimately had no idea what I was doing at the time because I really didn't understand the implications of what it means to be in a business partnership with somebody. So fast forward to nearly the end of a full year working together, one of my co-founders, he essentially said to me, "I want you to leave the company and I want you to walk away with nothing." And I said, "Hey, you can't do that-"

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, wait, wait. But you were partners and you had paperwork.

Kate Edwards:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, you were a partner if you are co-founder.

Kate Edwards:
Exactly. So essentially what the paperwork said was that all of us had equity or options essentially in the company, and as part of that, you're subject to what's called a vesting schedule. So a vesting schedule is determined by the company, was determined by us, and the standard vesting schedule is that if you have options in a company, you basically vest those options over time. So you have 100,000 options in a company that happens over the course of four years. And typically in this scenario and in most startups, you have a four year vesting schedule with the one year cliff. And a one year cliff, all it means is you can't access that. You can't purchase any options. You can't really own anything in that company, you know, until you basically have worked there for a year.

Kate Edwards:
So what this guy did to me was on literally day 364 he called me and said, "You're out." And there's a lot of legalities that happened and I'm simplifying it a little bit, but long story short, I walked away with nothing after working without a salary for a year and after creating this company that I really loved. Looking back, I think there's a lot of different things I could have done better, but the biggest thing that I realized, and the biggest lesson that I learned, was that it's not just about reading the paperwork or having a lawyer reading the paperwork, it's about truly understanding what it means to be in a partnership with somebody or what it means to be employed by somebody, or what does any type of ownership in a company mean.

Kate Edwards:
Since then, obviously, I've started a another company. We've been around for over three and a half years now, which is definitely crazy to think about, and we have 23 employees right now at Heartbeat. And so I've learned so much more. I've listened to podcasts, I've read so many more books to make sure that I have this understanding. And I also understand the impact of having a lawyer on your team. So I just wanted to share a little bit about the mistake that I made with the hope that anybody else who's working for a startup in the future can take my mistake and make sure that they don't do the same thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, did you have a lawyer at the time? I mean, were there red flags that you just didn't spot because people didn't look at it? Because if you guys were co-founders, how could he decide to oust you? That's what doesn't make sense. How did he have that power?

Kate Edwards:
Yeah, it's complicated. And you know, honestly, it's not clear cut. It's not like this person owns 51% and this person owns 49%, right. We had a number of different people involved as well, and different people had put in different amounts of money and things like that. So ultimately it was a decision that he could make. And I think being ousted is something that people see as, "Oh, that'll never happen to me," so it wasn't something that I had necessarily thought would happen. So because of that, because when you go into creating contracts with people you do have a good relationship with them, you often don't think about what the implications are if they go sour. So yes, I did have a lawyer look at the original paperwork for instance, but you know, everything was very standard in terms of how a typical startup is set up.

Bobbi Rebell:
Interesting. So effectively he was able to control things because of the way the shares in the company were allocated.

Kate Edwards:
Absolutely. And there's also some things that weren't shared with me so I didn't have complete transparency into everything, which was another mistake.

Bobbi Rebell:
Can you elaborate at all?

Kate Edwards:
You know, just in terms of who the investors are and what his relationship with them are and things like that. All of those things were, you know, we actually didn't have very many investors. It was just a matter of understanding all of the players that were involved. But I do think the point of my story is not to speak ill of this person, but it's really just to say that I think understanding the types of stock options you have, you know, if you are a partial owner in a company, what that actually entails and what your rights are. If there's people on a board, those types of things are questions that I just straight up did not ask because I didn't know about. And those are all things that I think a lot of people make mistakes on just because they don't ask the right questions.

“I walked away with nothing after working without a salary for a year. And after creating this company that I really loved.”

Kate’s money lesson

Kate Edwards:
The lesson for our listeners is always, always understand essentially who you're getting into bed with. That refers not just to if you're starting a company, but very much so if you're joining a startup. I know a lot of millennials and younger people right now think it's really hot to work in tech, right? That's the cool industry to go into right now. But most people don't know what it means when somebody says, "Hey, here's 10,000 stock options or 50,000 stock options." They're an ISO, they're an RSU, there's all these types of kind of industry jargon that's thrown around and people get excited that they have some sort of ownership in the company, but they don't know what it means and they don't know how to act related to that. So the lesson is really read up as much as you can on what owning a part of a company or an option to own a part of a company means so that you're able to make sure that you maximize the money that you can potentially make from that opportunity.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's also interesting that you signed a very standard contract, but yet there were still a lot of things that you didn't know, even though there weren't any necessarily red flags in the contract and a lawyer looked at it. So I think that's pretty interesting as well. Let's get to your everyday money tip because this is something that a lot of people have very strong feelings about one way or another.

“The biggest lesson that I learned was that it is not just about reading the paperwork or having a lawyer reading the paperwork, it is about truly understanding what it means to be in a partnership with somebody.”

Kate's everyday money tip

Kate Edwards:
I like to come in hot and my tip is to get an MBA. And the reason that it's my tip is just that it is a very clear return on investment. Data has shown a lot of people and particularly women are a little risk averse to getting an MBA because you have to take yourself out of the environment in the working world for a few years. You have to invest actual money, but you also have to invest time. I got an MBA, went to UCLA Anderson here in Los Angeles. I've done a little bit of research on this anecdotally as well, and from all the women I've spoken to, I now have friends from business school who work at Uber and Netflix and Hulu and McKinsey, all of these people working at these great companies, and they've all seen a very huge increase in their salaries.

I even had a friend who made $40,000 before going into business school and he came out of business school and made 200. The numbers basically show that the return on investment you see is somewhere between 250 and 325% return on salary immediately after graduating, and then of course lifetime earnings are increased as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think it's a very smart thing and I think that the networking, what you talked about with all the different people that you've met and now you have contacts at all those other companies, should also not be underestimated, the value of that as well.

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial Grownup tip number one:

It is scary out there. Standard legal documents don't always mean they will protect you. In fact, the standard may be designed to protect someone else. So just like with medical related decisions, it may be worth it to get more than one lawyer involved when agreeing to work for what was, in Kate's situation, a full year for free. And read it yourself also and ask the lawyer questions. But even then, know that things can go bad and don't blame yourself if it happens. It could happen to any of us.


Financial Grownup tip number two:

Get more educated. Kate is a big fan of the MBA and the numbers, they are real and compelling. I totally get it. It may not be for everybody and if that is not for you, you can still educate yourself with things that may not be as heavy a lift. MBAs are great, but that doesn't mean it is an option for everyone at every stage in their life and that's okay. I went, for example, and became a Certified Financial Planner and while I don't have a practice with financial planning clients, I know that first of all I could one day, it's always an option, it's always good to have options for different income streams. I know that it has resulted in getting me higher paying jobs.

Episode Links:

Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

Kate’s website www.heartbeat.com

Follow Kate!

• Instagram - @k8eddie

• Twitter - @k8eddie

• LinkedIn - @kateavelineedwards

Follow Heartbeat!

• Instagram - @Heartbeat

• Facebook - @Heartbeat

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

“The Big Life” author and former Seventeen Magazine Editor-in-Chief Ann Shoket’s boss literally mocked her when she asked to get paid more as a young magazine editor. Now, she knows better. Ann shares the one thing she does to find out what to ask for in negotiations, and how she leverages it to make more money. 

 

In Ann’s money story you will learn:

-How as a young magazine editor, Ann loved her job, but her compensation was not in line with her contributions. 

-How Ann prepared to approach her manager about a raise

-The shocking reason the manager denied her request

-The uncharacteristic response Ann gave to his pushback

-Exactly what Ann would do if she could do it over

In Ann’s lesson you will learn:

-How the resources of today could have helped Ann get that raise

-The specific advice Ann offers millennials 

-Where and how exactly listeners can get the information they need to better negotiate

-How to find out what you are worth in the job market

In Anne’s money tip you will learn:

-The best way to approach colleagues and friends to share salary and compensation information

-How e-mail vs IRL compare in sharing sensitive information about compensation and other career advice 

-Why it is so important to Ann that she help other women

-The specific language Ann uses in her conversations about money and other compensation with her peers

-How to handle issues of competition with peers and colleagues after sharing information

-What Ann learned from millennials about transparency

In my take you will learn:

-The importance of creating networks and career allies to share pay and other relevant information

-How to decide and communicate boundaries regarding the information

-How to decide if it is best to share information over email or IRL

-The importance of security when sharing sensitive information online

 

Episode Links:

Ann’s Ted Talk: Why We Should All Be More Millennial 

Anne’s book The Big Life: Embrace the Mess, Work Your Side Hustle, Fie a Monumental Relationship and Become the Badass Babe You Were Meant to Be

Anne's website:

AnnShoket.com

Follow Ann!!

Twitter @annshoket

Instagram: @annshoket

Facebook Ann.Shoket

LinkedIn Ann Shoket

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Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
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Ann Shoket:
He looked at me and he said, "You know Ann, you don't go into journalism to get rich." I was so stunned. I wasn't asking to get rich, I just wanted to pay my bills.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey everyone. So this episode is going to be a treat and perfect for anyone that feels they could, and let's face it, should, be earning more money. You may have a boss you need to convince or you may have your own business and need to figure out how to charge your clients more and grow your business. Ann Shoket is a big name. She first became famous as the editor-in-chief of Seventeen Magazine and was named by Forbes to be one of the most powerful U.S. fashion magazine editors. More recently, she penned The Big Life and started a Badass Babes community. And being a badass herself, she also has an amazing TED Talk called Why We Should All Be More Millennial. Which brings us to the advice she is going to share, because it is about using that idea to get paid more money. Here is Ann Shoket.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ann Shoket, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Ann Shoket:
Oh, I'm so excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Congratulation on your massive bestseller, The Big Life, and more recently your TED Talk, which I've now watched a number of times. You are literally the Jane Goodall of millennials, so I'm so excited to be talking with you.

Ann Shoket:
Thank you. I have devoted my career to understanding millennials and supporting them and helping them find their power.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which brings us to the money story that you're going to share, which really has to do with trading money for meaning at work. Because of the importance really of meaning, because we spend so much time at work.

Ann Shoket:
So when I was sort of mid-level editor coming up in the world, just past the stage of eating ramen and scrounging and going to happy hours to have dinner, where I had some experience under my belt and a little bit of a salary, I was creating new content for my company and doing great innovations and I wanted to get paid more. And I remember I walked into my boss and I came in with a list of things that I had achieved, I'm no dummy, you know, you come in with these [crosstalk 00:03:09].

Bobbi Rebell:
So you were prepared, right.

Ann Shoket:
It wasn't entitlement, I was prepared for this conversation, and he looked at me and he said, "You know Ann, you don't go into journalism to get rich." And I was so stunned. I wasn't asking to get rich, I just wanted to pay my bills. And frankly, I wanted to get paid for the work I was doing and for the good work that I knew I was bringing them. And I remember feeling instantly small, as if I had asked for too much or my ambition was too obvious, and I backed off of my request. I felt small, I retreated. He made me feel like I should feel lucky to be in that position. And maybe it's true, it's a competitive world that we're in-

Bobbi Rebell:
But you had worked for that position. I mean, yes, many other people would love to be in that position but you had earned it and you were working.

Ann Shoket:
And probably the worst part is I loved my job, I really did and he knew it. I loved my job, I was engaged, I was doing good work, I was doing work I felt was meaningful. I was on my path to finding what felt like my purpose, I was doing something real. And he used that to make me feel small in a salary negotiation and I didn't go for the big dollars and I didn't push hard and I backed off immediately. And could I do it all over again, I might have left that meeting, gone back to my desk, and then come back with a nuts and bolts, "Here's what other people are making in my position." It was at a time where frankly we didn't have Glass Door, we didn't have a million ways to check our salaries, so I didn't know what other people were making.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, was it that other people were making more or that they were just paying you very little? We don't really know I guess, we don't know.

Ann Shoket:
I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
We don't know.

Ann Shoket:
I don't know. But had I had the resources available that we have today and had I had the benefit of greater perspective on the world, I would have taken that moment and figured out how to get paid what I thought I deserved at that time. I would have really pushed for it rather than feeling small and retreating.

Bobbi Rebell:
So now we are years later, you are the voice for so many millennials, you are teaching them so much. What is your lesson from this that you would share to them if they find themselves in a similar situation?

Ann Shoket:
Knowledge is power. So if you know what other people at your level, in your company, who sit next to you in the competitive company, are making then you have a much greater leverage to get paid what you deserve. Women say to me all the time, "I just want to get paid what I'm worth," and I am like, "That's great, except for how do you know what you're worth?" And the only way to know is to share your salary information.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Ann Shoket:
If you walk away from this interview right now with only one thing, it's share your salary information with a trusted colleague, someone who sits next to you, your regular lunch buddy, but share your salary information. It's not gratuitous, it's not for gossip purposes, but it's so that you know and are better prepared when you go into your own salary negotiation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So sticking to this theme for your money tip, you've talked about sharing your salary information but are there specific ways and specific resources that you can tell people about that can accomplish this goal? Because it's a little bit awkward to just go up to people and say, "Oh hey, tell me what you're making and I'll tell you what I make and it will be all good." I mean, how do you actually ... Are there certain things that you look for with someone that you feel you can trust them? Are there websites you can go to, are there chat groups? Specifically how does this happen? Because it's awkward, right?

Ann Shoket:
It is awkward and I'll tell you, the first time that someone asked me to ballpark my salary for them it came in an email-

Bobbi Rebell:
And was it a close friend, was it someone you knew well?

Ann Shoket:
It was a colleague.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Ann Shoket:
Not a close friend. It was a colleague and we had been supportive of each other over the years. And at first I was so shocked, I was like, "Can you believe the nerve of this woman! I would never share my salary information with her!" And I calmed down and tried to get a little perspective and I gave her some sort of halfway information that she may be able to use, I didn't go all the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
In writing, in writing.

Ann Shoket:
I did, I emailed her back in writing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Ann Shoket:
However, if I did it again I would 100% ballpark and tell her the number. I was so stunned by it but I realize she was so ahead of the curve in even asking. And I have since been in a position to help other women where I've talked about what I got paid and about the ins and outs of my book deal to help other women in getting their book deal. I have had women who have helped me as I've been building a speaking practice, women who've been tremendously supportive, because it's all brand new.

Ann Shoket:
You know, one of the things about having careers that are more complicated and more evolved than we ever planned for is that suddenly you're being thrust into totally new arenas and you have to figure out how to take the skills that you have but make them work in new places and in new ways. How do you do that unless somebody gives you the lay of the land? And so that's another piece of this sisterhood, this idea that we should all support each other so that we can rise together as women and be collaborative and powerful.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, just to be specific about this, how do you know when it's okay to trust somebody or do you try to ... You were comfortable doing it in an email, you don't feel you have to pick up the phone or meet someone in person.

Ann Shoket:
I think when you're talking real numbers, I think it's okay to send an email that says, "Hey, can I talk to you about this? I'm interested in finding out what you charge or how you got paid or how the deal went down," in an email, to be clear about what it is that you're asking them. But then to have the real nuts and bolts money conversation in person, I think is probably smart. That's how the last couple of conversations that I've had have gone. But I think it has to be someone you trust, who's not going to feel competitive, someone who's going to give you good, smart information. And I think that you find those people in your network, maybe they're not someone who sits next to you at work, maybe it's not your work wife, although you probably should share some of this information with your work wife. But it is people who are going to be in your life for a while, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Ann Shoket:
You're going to see them at industry events, you're going to be up for the same jobs, you're going to see them schmoozing here and there, you're going to see them at parities-

Bobbi Rebell:
What do you do if you find out that there's a big disparity?

Ann Shoket:
I think the only thing to do ... I mean, yes, maybe it's awkward with the two of you but I think it's better to say now you know and now you can go to your boss and let them know that you know and to be clear. One of the most interesting things about this transparency that millennials have brought into the world is that Gen Xers are so supremely uncomfortable with it, we think it's TMI and that it's oversharing and that the system, sort of old systems, are set up to keep you in line and to keep you not knowing. And those don't really serve us moving forward, the transparency that millennials are demanding is going to become second nature for all of us. And so I think it's a smart company that honors this kind of transparency rather than shuts it down.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well said. All right, Ann Shoket, I know that you are so busy on the speaker circuit and with all of your projects. Tell us more about what you're up to these days and where people can find you.

Ann Shoket:
So since the TED Talk, Why We Should All Be More Millennial, I have actually been doing a ton of speaking. It is, in so many ways, a love letter to millennials, to a generation that I believe is going to lead our future and is changing the way we define power and success. But it's also incredibly important for boomers and Xers, and there's this real tension at work between boomers and Xers and the millennial employees that are coming up behind them. And it is my goal to make everybody come together so that we can rise together as women.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can people find you?

Ann Shoket:
Annshoket.com is the best, fastest way to find The Big Life, to find my speaking, to find my TED Talk.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is awesome, by the way. And on social media?

Ann Shoket:
Annshoket.com on Instagram, ann.shoket on Facebook, annshoket on Twitter. You can find me everywhere, I'm very easy to find. A-N-N, S-H-O-K-E-T.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Thank you so much, this has been amazing.

Ann Shoket:
Thank you Bobbi, I love it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love how direct Ann was, I feel there were a lot of takeaways but this is what I'm going to focus on. Financial grownup tip number one, create networks and career allies to share pay and career information. But this is what I'm adding, treat it kind of like any successful relationship, in that you need to respect the boundaries and you also need to respect that even though you're being transparent with each other that doesn't mean that the information goes beyond that relationship, you need to respect the other person and their privacy. Be sure to vet someone also before you reveal too much, and keep the information that is said between the two of you, or the group, private unless it is clearly agreed that it is for public disclosure. Ann and I have shared career information and goals, but that remains private.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial grownup tip number two. When you have these conversations, Ann points out that while you can initiate via email, you should have the real conversation in real life, in person, face to face. Meeting in person is worth the time, at the very least, do it by phone. On your end, you don't want to create a paper trail with information that you don't want to go beyond the intended recipient. No matter how well-intentioned they are, things happen, be secure with your information.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. The minute this podcast is over, I want everyone to go listen to Ann Shoket's TED Talk, Why We Should All Be More Millennial. I will leave a link in the show notes. Then check out her book, The Big Life, and follow her on social media. I want to hear your money story and get some great money tips from you, our listeners. We are going to be starting having one episode a month be a listener as our guest. If you want to be considered, email us at info@financialgrownup.com and tell us what money story, lesson, and money tip you would share.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you all for your support. If you like what you are hearing please don't forget to hit the subscribe button so you won't miss any upcoming episodes. And of course, rate and review the show, especially on iTunes. Anywhere is good, but especially iTunes so more people can learn about the show. And on that note, please share this with a friend so we can share these stories with more people and help them live richer lives. Follow me on Twitter @bobbirebell, on Instagram @bobbirebell1, learn more about the show at bobbirebell.com/financialgrownuppodcast. I adore Ann and I hope you do now too. It was a great episode and here's to us all getting one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.