Getting a huge salary jump is awesome, but even with a big jump Paychecks & Balances podcast host, Rich Jones had some lessons to learn when his compensation skyrocketed. The entrepreneur behind the Show Starter shares his experiences, and how we can all get not just the best pay but also the best jobs. 

Rich’s Money Story:

Rich Jones:
Yeah, so by day I work at Google. I've been there for over five years. I'm moved to a tech startup called ScrollMotion, and it was the shortest role in my career, I'd only been there for about nine months. I actually got an email from a recruiter at Google and I thought it was spam. Even though my ultimate goal was to move to a big tech company, I kind of had this self-doubt of, "Oh wow, they're reaching out to me. Is this really a real role? Why are they reaching out to me in New York when this position is based in California?"

Rich Jones:
I went through the interview process and it probably took about three to four months, but then ultimately I ended up getting the job. I made the transition from New York City to California. And part of what I realized throughout the process that I think is really important, one is the importance of negotiation. And I learned this more for the role that I had at the tech startup because I won't say how, but I came across how much the person in that role before me made and it was a lot more than I had actually asked for.

Rich Jones:
And part of what I did not consider is that I worked at a nonprofit. Nonprofits typically pay a little bit less and when I saw an increase, I was so focused on one, getting out of that nonprofit because I realized that role wasn't for me, that I had this fear of not wanting to mess up the opportunities. I said, "Hey, this is a pay increase, this is great." Only to get there and find out that I actually could have asked for a lot more.

Rich Jones:
And what I've learned from tech companies like Google and Facebook, they really do try to do right by people, and instead of kind of negotiating people downward, they want to make sure that they bring people in at a fair market rate because they ultimately don't want to lose these people because the cost of hiring and losing someone is so high. Part of what I learned in the process is the importance of negotiation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell me more about the actual moment you got the job offer. Did they say the number first or did you?

Rich Jones:
They said the number first and it far exceeded the number that I had in mind.

Bobbi Rebell:
Was this a phone conversation? What, where, how is this happening?

Rich Jones:
It was a phone conversation. I was ready to go back and forth and I had my numbers in mind, didn't realize that I was undercutting myself in the process and they made an offer that honestly had me floored. It was a no brainer.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, but did you ask for more?

Rich Jones:
I did not because it far exceeded what I was even looking for and I felt completely comfortable about the offer. The lesson here is having a number in mind and I made sure that I did research when I looked at this role to make sure that I wasn't going to get undercut. When they came back with a number that was far greater than what I had in mind, I could've went back and forth with them. And there are situations where I would say, "Hey, ask for more," but it was so much greater than what I thought it was going to be. Everything else about it made sense that it made sense for me to ultimately accept the role.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you find out the data about the previous employee that they were making more and about how much more was it, like a percentage-wise? Give me some sort of scale.

Rich Jones:
Oh, it was about 20 to $25,000 more. It was one of those things where I was doing some research in the system for a project and I saw what they were actually making. And I had this Wow! Moment of, "This is not good. I could have asked for a lot more." Part of what I've learned in my current role, especially because I work in staffing or worked in staffing for a number of years, even if I probably had asked for more for the role at Google I probably wouldn't have gotten it. Because I think one of the other mistakes I made is that at the time they would ask you what you were making today, and companies sometime anchor on that. Once we tell them what you're making, they just try to do a percentage increase. One thing I probably would have done differently is not actually share that salary information and just said come back-

Bobbi Rebell:
You shared it before they gave you the offer?

Rich Jones:
I did, I did. I did. And more states now are implementing policies or laws where companies can not ask for salary information specifically for that reason. I actually encourage people, if you're talking to a company and they ask what you're making today, that you not tell them that actual number and see what they come back with. If they come back with a number that's lower or even if it's a number that's right where you want to be, try the approach of, "Hey, I'm super excited about this offer. If we can get to X number, I'll be willing to sign this offer today." And that recruiter is incentivized to go back and see what they can do to ultimately get you that number that they want.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you to take action after getting this information, did you go ask for a raise?

Rich Jones:
No, I did not ask for a raise because for me, my ultimate goal was to move to a company like Google or Facebook and it happened sooner than I expected and that's why I say it caught me off guard and I'm like, "Wow, they're reaching out to me." Because to me it was, "I'll get a couple of years of experience, I'll go and apply. Not this company will find me on LinkedIn because my profile is optimized and then contact me." I'd say over the course of three years, my total compensation increased by 200 to 250%.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Rich Jones:
And while at that-

Bobbi Rebell:
Now wait, let me ask you, was that prompted by you becoming a better negotiator because you now have this information or they're just a generous company and that's kind of what they gave you?

Rich Jones:
I think it was more so prompted by things like updating my LinkedIn profile so that they could find me in the first place because there is applying for jobs, but then there's also recruiters who were out there every day looking for talent, scouring LinkedIn. I was that recruiter. Part of the insight knowledge I had was how a recruiter would go about looking for somebody who has a particular set of skills.

Rich Jones:
A big part for me was updating my LinkedIn profile so that if a recruiter was looking for someone who had a combination of HR experience and recruiting experience, and they had this profession in human resource certification, my profile would pop up. While it wasn't as heavy on the negotiation side, there were things that I did to optimize my profile and optimize myself so that if people were looking for someone with my skills, I would pop up in that search and I attribute it a lot more to that.

Rich Jones:
I think part of what's helped me maximize my raises and my increase, it's not so much that I had to negotiate a higher pay, it's that I documented my value and I documented the things that I did to bring more people in, the things that I did to a higher level of impact and then that was ultimately factored into my bonus percentage, which is on a scale. And that was ultimately factored into the salary increase, which is also one scale. It's funny going from being an individual contributor to a manager and then having to go through that same process, where if an employee didn't tell me all the things they did, I had so many things going on so I could not remember everything that they did.

Rich Jones:
But there would be times where they'd say, "Hey, I did this and I did that." And I'd be like, "Oh yeah, you did do this, and you did do that. You should be an exceeds expectation, versus a meets expectations." A lot of it is on the individual to make sure that they're documenting and that they're in a position to be able to show the value that they've added. I had it for that conversation, but also if an opportunity came up outside of the company, I had those things documented, which would then become answers for interview questions or things that I could put in my LinkedIn profile to further show my value and that I'm a high performer.

“I actually encourage people, if you are talking to a company and they ask what you are making today that you not tell that number and see what they come back with.”

Rich’s Money Lesson:

Rich Jones:
There's an article that came out from Glassdoor, a couple of years ago. For someone starting at a salary of $50,000, the difference in not negotiating a $5,000 increase when they're first starting could be the difference of $600,000 over the course of their working career. What people don't think about, we talk about compound interest when it comes to your savings account or when it comes to stocks and investing, but we don't talk about the compound effect of negotiating a higher salary.

Rich Jones:
Because if you start by negotiating up, then every salary that you negotiate going forward or every increase that you get going forward is going to be a lot higher. There are people, they're actually scared to negotiate because they think that the company's going to pull the offer. And I can tell you from being on the employer's side, no recruiter or no company is going to rescind offer because you asked for something. In fact, we expect you to ask for something.

“If you start by negotiating up, then every salary that you negotiate going forward or every increase that you get going forward is going to be higher.”

Rich’s Money Tip:

Rich Jones:
A couple of apps that I really love today. One is Tiller. It allows you to connect your bank accounts and I'm someone that loves spreadsheets. And they have these templates and these customized spreadsheets where if you connect your accounts, it'll automatically pull in the information. You can see what you're spending on by category, if you're over or under or at budget. And there's also a feature where I get an email daily that anytime there's been a transaction, whether money coming in or money going out, I see that first thing in the morning.

Rich Jones:
And there've been times where I've said, "Wow, did I really just spend that much on food?" Or, "Wow, I forgot that I had that subscription." That's one service that I use to kind of see where my spending is going. But the other service that I really like, it's called Truebill, and initially this started out as an app that would monitor all your subscriptions and tell you where you could have a subscription canceled, where they can negotiate on your behalf to bring that subscription costs down.

Rich Jones:
And just even today before we recorded this interview, I've realized that I was getting double-billed for a particular subscription and now I'm in the process of having them resolve it for me so I don't have to deal with the process of calling in and talking to multiple people and going back and forth and sending emails. Pairing up apps, one, I have something that tells me where my money is going on a day to day basis, which keeps me sharp. And then two, I have a service that's monitoring my subscriptions, but it's also giving me a breakdown of how I'm spending for the month. And I can see that category by category and it kind of tells me if I'm doing too much, if I'm going over budget and I found both of those to be super helpful with each other.

“I can tell you from being on the employer side,  no company is going to rescind the offer because you asked for something. In fact we expect you to ask for something. ”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

Manage up. Remember Rich, said to prepare for performance reviews, that's just part of it. This is all about communication with your supervisors. Those are the people who decide how much you get paid. Don't assume they know and in some cases even understand what you do and how valuable you have become to the company.

Financial grownup tip number two:

I love what Rich said about the very first salary being an anchor to ongoing salary negotiations. He is 100% correct, but at the same time, don't assume you are worth more than they're willing to pay. With the first job, you don't always bring as much to the table as you will in future jobs. Yes, you probably went to school and studied, but let's face it, in most cases the companies are also going to put a lot of resources into training you. Just factor in what you will learn as an employee when you are in that negotiation and be thoughtful about your asks.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Rich’s website - paychecksandbalances.com/

Follow Rich!

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• Twitter - @PayBalances

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Cate Luzio had no problem getting her boss to agree to give her a raise, but was caught off guard when asked how much she wanted. Cate shares exactly how she was able to come back with her number in just 24 hours, and how we can all get paid as much as possible. 

Cate's money story:

So I spent many years in corporate investment banking, but a large stint of it at JP Morgan. I was living in London, I was already at a managing director level, I was managing a big business within the corporate bank. I was, as women do, getting ready to prepare for that year end discussion and to ask for a raise. I go into my boss's office who was amazing and as I'm starting to already defend my accomplishments and list them out within 30 seconds of me speaking, he says, "Cate stop talking." I thought, "Oh, God, what did I do wrong?".

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I would be worried.

Cate Luzio:
I thought he was going to say, "You're out.".

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, no.

Cate Luzio:
And then he said, "What's your number?"

Bobbi Rebell:
Meaning?

Cate Luzio:
Meaning what's the number?

Bobbi Rebell:
How much do you want?

Cate Luzio:
Exactly. Because, one, he didn't have time to waste, and I will tell you that. And two, he was like, "Let's get to the point. You're going to come in here and give me all your accomplishments, but I'm your manager, I know your accomplishments, I know what you've done for the business. So tell me how much more money you want to make." And I had never even thought of the number, which is embarrassing to one extent and then proves a point to the other around that women often are ready to just talk about, list out what they've done and how they've made a value to the company versus going in and asking for that number and then being prepared to defend why they've asked for that. And so, he said, "I give you 24 hours and you come back to me with a number.".

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, no pressure. So, what do you do with that 24 hours?

Cate Luzio:
I knew that my team, more broadly the leadership team, were all a bunch of men, and that was fine, they were great, but I couldn't ask them. I had come from a different business about a year prior to that within JP Morgan, but I knew I should be making a big jump. So, what did I do? I called a bunch of my guy friends at other banks. I just said, "Here's the situation, I just need to know what you make."

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, let me just ask you. Did you just randomly pick up the actual, I hate to say this, the actual phone, meaning you didn't text them, you didn't email them.

Cate Luzio:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
But you were picking up the phone.

Cate Luzio:
Picked up the phone.

Bobbi Rebell:
And putting them on the spot.

Cate Luzio:
Putting them on the spot. And I had done that throughout my career. I think women don't realize this, and I think it's a lot in the banking sector, that when you get your bonus everyone's pounding their chest, like, "This is what I got." And guys do. They tell each other what they make. So they benchmark early on. And I had been doing that early on in my career. And then as I got more senior it was like, "Oh, well I'm getting more jobs and I'm getting these big promotions. This is great." And I had forgotten about I should be getting paid for what I do.

And so that's what I did. I spent that night calling and talking. And I remember I met with one of the guys that I knew at a big bank competitor, and hashing it out. And walked in the next day with the number.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let me just stop you there. What was your take on the numbers they were getting? What did you learn just from those numbers about where you are relative to them?

Cate Luzio:
Oh, much lower. I mean considerable amount lower. And again, remember, I think it didn't have to do with the company not wanting to pay me. It was commensurate with I had been at the firm for a while. You don't normally get huge bumps and raises unless you come from another firm. If you've made a jump that normally happens with your bonus or your variable compensation. So that was not an expectation that someone would walk in and get a very large raise. I knew that from the hundreds of people that I had managed.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you hadn't asked.

Cate Luzio:
And I had never asked. A part of me thinks, "Oh, I should've asked." And then part of me thinks, "I'd only been in that particular role for less than a year. So, was it warranted?" Yes, because not only of my performance, but my potential to continue to perform in that role, and bigger roles. And so, we hear it a lot, men are promoted on potential, women are promoted on performance. This wasn't even about promotion. This was about getting a fair compensation.

And so, when I did that benchmarking and talking to my male peers, I realized I was making a lot less. And so the next day I went in and he said, "Do you have your number?" I said, "Yeah, this is my number." He said, "It's not unreasonable. I don't know what we can do, but it's not unreasonable." To which I walked out thinking that's a huge win itself that I didn't come in and him say that's absolutely never going to happen, which, by the way, that happens quite a bit.

And so, three months later when you actually get your comp information and your bonus, they hand you a paper, and that has everything written. And so, I have no poker face. And so I immediately pull up the paper in front of my face, because I don't want him to see if I'm crying or if I'm smiling. Because if it was going to be a bad number I was going to be really upset. And the number was not the number that I asked for, it was even more.

So, as I'm putting the paper down, I'm smiling. What was even better was my boss was smiling even bigger than I was. And his exact words were, "You perform for us, we perform for you." He said, "This is probably never going to happen again in your career unless you leave and go to another firm, but you've demonstrated not only performance but potential and we value that."

“Don’t just go into any or these discussions with a list of your accomplishments. Be prepared first to demonstrate why you are valuable to the company. And also know your worth. Have that number going in.”

Cate’s money lesson:

So the lesson is don't just go into any of these discussions with a list of your accomplishments. Be prepared first to demonstrate why you are valuable to the company. And also know your worth. Right? So already have that number going in, because the worst thing that can happen is, one, they quiz you on why you should get that money or that promotion. Then you're ready, you've got your accomplishments, you've got what you've done for the business, you've got how you've demonstrated your value.

Cate Luzio:
But also what's the worst that can happen? They say no. And then you decide whether you can live with that no, you continue to fight for that compensation or that role or that promotion, or you go elsewhere.

Bobbi Rebell:
Have you ever gotten a no, and how did you deal with it if you did?

Cate Luzio:
Oh, absolutely gotten a no. Listen, companies are under lots of constraints, they're under huge budgetary issues, so there are a lot of nos. And I've had to give a lot of nos to people too. I think the way I combated that or came back from that was, "Is this still the firm that I want to work for? Is their rationale correct? Do I get that? Do I look at the overall earnings of the company and where I fit into that?".

Cate Luzio:
So, when you work for a large publicly traded company that's in the Fortune 150, they have a lot of mouths to feed. But you still, at the end of the day, have to feel comfortable with the answer that they give. And, for me, I never left a company because they didn't pay me. So I looked at where else there were value they were adding in my life and my career. Was there a career path? Were they providing opportunities? And that was big for me around the delivering of those other opportunities, but also investing in me as an employee, making me a better asset to them.

Bobbi Rebell:
I like that. Because sometimes people might work for, let's say, a startup or something and there just isn't the money.

Cate Luzio:
Absolutely.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you have to look at other things.

Cate Luzio:
You have to look at other things and what drives you. If money is the only thing that drives you, then that's not going to be the place. But there's the role, there's are you managing a team? Are you part of other projects within the organization? Are you moving up quickly, as you mentioned, like in a startup or even in intrepreneurial environment within a big company where it's not just about the compensation? I do firmly believe you have to be fairly compensated, but I think there's a lot of factors that play into that.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. Now you are well compensated. I should say, when you worked for other people you were well com... Now you work for yourself. When you worked for other people you were certainly well compensated. You could certainly do the shopping that you wanted to do and have the wardrobe that you want to have. But just because you have the money doesn't mean you should spend it all on clothing. And that brings us to a everyday money tip from you. Because this is really interesting. We talk a lot about saving money because you have to or to reach certain goals. Sometimes you're saving money because maybe spending it just doesn't make sense.

“I decided to self fund. I wanted to look at my members of the community of Luminary as my investors, versus maximizing value for an investor.”

Cate's everyday money tip:

As someone who did make quite a bit of money, and I actually reinvested a lot of that money into my company because I self funded, one of the things I knew is that my disposable income I needed to make it very small, because I was investing it into the company. And I was a big shopper. I needed retail therapy. So I actually now rent most of my clothes. I do it mostly with Rent the Runway, but it's exciting to see all of these other new players out there because it gives you so much more variety and diversity of your clothes. And for me it ends up really saving a lot of money for me. Also, I get the thrill of shopping online or even in person because they have stores, but without the guilt of spending all that money and then wasting it because I wear those clothes one time and then never wear them again.

Bobbi Rebell:
I second that. I actually also use Rent the Runway, and I find that to be very true. And I also think you can wear things. Sometimes fashions can be a little bit silly, like we had weird sleeves happening a year ago. And you can try that and you don't have to own that because we know some things are just not going to have staying power. Right?

Cate Luzio:
Absolutely. And some things you may think one day they flatter you and the next they don't. So, why keep it in your closet?

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial Grownup tip number one:

Cate was able to get the intel on her number in just 24 hours, because she had spent years building strong relationships. To do a quick turnaround, you need to have everything in place, and to do that you need to be playing the long game when it comes to those relationships.

Financial Grownup tip number two:

One of my favorite parts of this interview is when Cate got really candid talking about how she deals with nos. First of all, if Cate Luzio is getting no’s, we can all feel a lot better about our setbacks. But she never talks about storming out or being confrontational. Instead, it's about taking a big picture look and being tuned in to why that no happened. It could be you and your performance, and if so, you need to be self-aware enough to own that and to take action.

Sometimes we all have so much ra-ra, go for it in our lives that we're not really that honest when maybe we aren't deserving of that. I'm not saying that's true all that often, but it could sometimes be true. And we need to be realistic about whether the assessment of us might have some good points. But it can also be things that are out of your control, having to do with where the business is financially. That's not really on you, but it's still your reality. Keep your cool, don't make brash emotional decisions.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Cate’s website - https://www.luminary-nyc.com/

• Cate’s Podcast - Come Sit At Our Table

Follow Cate!

• Instagram - @BeALuminary

• Facebook - @BeALuminary

• Twitter - @BeALuminary

• LinkedIn - @BeALuminary

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

A story pitch led economist Allison Schrager to conquer her own negotiating fears by learning from the economically savvy workers at a Nevada brothel. The experience led her to investigate the most compelling and successful approaches to negotiation, reducing risk and increasing the chances of success. 

“My new life philosophy is you should hear no at least 60% of the time and if not you haven’t asked for enough”

In Allison's money story you will learn:

Well, this is actually what brought me to the brothel initially. When I had a relationship with them is they called me wanting me to write about them and I was like, "I don't know about this." They were ... I'm like, "But, tell me about the industry" and they're like, "Well, you know. All the women are independent contractors and we have no set prices. They negotiate every transaction." I was like-

Bobbi Rebell:
These are the legal ones in Nevada?

Allison S.:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
To be clear.

Allison S.:
Yes. This is the legal brothels in Nevada. They're all 1099 employees. I was like, "Well, that's interesting. So, you're telling me, you've got women in their early 20s negotiating with men in their 60s over tens of thousands of dollars?" And they're like, "Why, yes. And it's interesting, no one's ever asked us about that before. You know, then a lot of them come here, not knowing their value so we train them so they know how to be better negotiators and ask for more."

Allison S.:
Now, this is something I struggle with. I'm terrible at negotiating. Nothing freaks me out more and fills me with more anxiety, or at least used to, than asking for money. I am just-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, I think all of us.

Allison S.:
All of us. I've always probably been underpaid for this reason. Off I went to Nevada and I spent about a week and a half there learning negotiation skills and it changed my life. Particularly, Dennis Hof when he was alive, was there. He told me something about negotiation that just really changed my outlook for money and for everything, which is you have to get comfortable with "No" because you have to hear "No" more than you hear "Yes" because that's how you know you're asking for enough.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think that's really smart. What's interesting that these women that are in the legal part of the industry do get triple, I think what the ones that are outside of the legal. There's a reason for that is because they're paying to lower their risk, which I think is fascinating.

Allison S.:
Yeah. Just like any market, you pay for safety. Brothel customers pay this 300% markup for transaction that affectively their "No's" going to have no consequence. They're not going to get arrested. No one's going to blackmail them. She's not going to be on the news. They know if she's been screened for diseases. If a customer want ... men and women want that kind of service, then there's somewhere they can go and know they can get at risk-free but they have to pay for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you take those lessons and actually use them in your own life?

Allison S.:
Oh, yeah. Especially one. I learned how to asked for more and feel comfortable hearing "No." My new life philosophy is you should hear "No's" at least 60% of the time and if not, you haven't asked for enough. Also, I also learned these techniques of how to feel more comfortable hearing "No" because it's like a risk, like anything. And that, if you go into a negotiation, it's a risk. It could blow up and you'll destroy your relationship. This is a big concern. The two people negotiating in a brothel, they're about to do something very intimate but they have to argue about money before. It's sort of like your job negotiation on steroids, in terms of tension.

Allison S.:
What they do is they do something you do in finance too, which is there's a lot of hedging. There's a lot of maintaining some sort of form of liquidity, which is you don't just say ... Salary negotiation like, "Double my salary or I'm going to quit." You're just like, "Well, hey. I would like this much more money but if that's not realistic, I could take more vacation days." What you do is you offer this menu of options, which promotes flexibility for both sides and that increases the odds you're going to have a more successful transaction.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you ... When you then ... Are there specific ways that you then implemented these negotiations strategies in your life since then?

Allison S.:
Oh, yeah. I'm now very comfortable hearing "No." Certainly in terms of writing the book and asking for the resources I needed from both the publisher and from friends helping me promote it. I'm now very comfortable with making these ballsy asks I would've never done before.

Bobbi Rebell:
Can you give an example of one that you asked for that was success? And maybe one that wasn't successful.

Allison S.:
I think it's certainly in terms of asking corporations to do bulk sales. That was just something I would've never asked for before. Now I feel comfortable with it. But, sometimes more often than not, I am being told "No." It still stings a little but then I sort of tell myself, "You asked for enough because you heard no."

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a good thing to remember because ultimately, in other words, you want to hear "Yes" but if you hear a "Yes" right away, that in a way makes you feel, "Well, maybe I didn't ask for enough." I think that's something people need to keep in mind

“Nothing freaks me out and fills me with more anxiety,.. than asking for money”

In Allison’s money lesson you will learn:

I basically said it. It's okay to hear "No." The world doesn't end. It doesn't destroy your relationship. If you don't hear "No," you're not getting enough.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you recover from the "No?"

Allison S.:
Well, now as I said, it still stings. I sit there-

Bobbi Rebell:
But, can you just go back with your tail between your legs and be like, "Okay. I know you said no to that. Can you do this?" Or do you have to just walk? You just have to save face and be like, "Then I'm not going to do it."

Allison S.:
You come back with another alternative because most transactions aren't binary. It's not like you'll do this or it's not happened. There's maybe a third way. I become more of this school if you ask for the sun, maybe you'll get the moon.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Maybe when you originally approach a negotiation, you make sure to not make it binary and not create absolutes. So, that starts at the beginning is giving yourself a way to circle back if you don't get the answer that you want.

Allison S.:
Exactly. What they do in the brothel is customer's a little nervous and they'll lay out like, "Hey. What do you think that they'll do?" He'll be like, "I don't know. I've never been here" and they'll be like, "All right. Here's what I think I should do." They'll lay out this elaborate sexual plan. It involves going to the movies, and dinner, and it's 12 hours. The guy will be like, "That's amazing" and then they'll be like, "Great. That'll be $15000." Then he's like, "Whoa, no" and then they're like, "All right. Well, maybe we can take dinner off the table."

Allison S.:
What you do is you have this big hairy ask but then there's components to it and you take it apart so no one's really ever heard "No." But, you have this whole ... It's actually a menu of choices.

Bobbi Rebell:
Interesting. Any specifics that you think people could use when they are applying it to their own life?

Allison S.:
Yeah. I mean, if you're ... Like I said, if you're negotiating for your salary, as I said, it doesn't have to be all monetary compensation. You could talk about flexible hours. You can talk about more vacation days. Or, as I said, even if you're asking a friend for a favor like they're going to promote your book. You can ask them to email everyone in their company and they'll probably say "No" because that's a little ballsy but maybe they'll share it on Facebook and it's something.

“If you ask for the sun, maybe you will get the moon”

In Allison's everyday money tip you will learn:

Risk is the cost of getting what you want. You don't want to take anymore than necessary. Diversification has been proven in finance as it gets rid of unnecessary risks but not all risk. That doesn't just apply to financial markets. It could apply to anything. It could be if you're in a job doing gig or contract work on the side if possible. So, you have that option. It could be keeping your network fresh, so you have other options if that job doesn't work out or you want a new skill. Or, it could even be with dating. I actually re-read the rules when I was doing the book because I keep [inaudible 00:10:47]. I was like-

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the book you're referring to is a book from years ago when two women wrote about these very harsh ... They sort of sound old fashion rules but they're almost playing hard to get, I guess. But, go on.

Allison S.:
Yeah. It's a much better book than you remember. But, one of their tips is don't be exclusive with someone until that you really know they're serious about you. I mean, they actually marry you but-

Bobbi Rebell:
Diversification then, in dating? Affectively. Yeah.

Allison S.:
It is and it really does bring out your best self. It really is efficient in some ways because it keeps you from getting invested in the wrong person. They could be a jerk and you don't know that yet because you don't really know who they are. It also makes you feel more desirable and attractive so really can be your best selves. Diversification really applies to anything.

Financial Grownup tip number one:

Think about the things you can do to increase your odds of success in a negotiation. Allison talks about creating a menu of options asking for the most first but offering the other party at least something that they can give you to make it a win at some level. Think about a wine list at a restaurant. A lot of people pick the second cheapest one for a reason. The restaurant knows this and in many cases, they can actually build in the biggest profit margin because they know that's where everyone's going to gravitate towards.

Financial Grownup tip number two:

Try to identify things you do that increase your risk. In the book, for example, Allison talks about how poker champions with stacks of money on the line have to factor in their irrational behavior as the stakes get higher. What do you do that is economically irrational? Shopping for food on an empty stomach. Yeah, that's me. Buying things because they're on sale. Me too. You get the idea. And let me know. DM me with your biggest irrational economic decisions. I would to hear and share with the community so we can all be a little bit more aware, and maybe we can come up with some ways to help.

Episode Links:

Allisons book An Economist Walks into a Brothel

Check out Allison's website -

www.AllisonSchrager.com

Follow Allison!

• Instagram - @AllisonSchrager

• Twitter - @AllisonSchrager

• Facebook - @Allison.Schrager

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

As a child, Joan Kuhl watched her single mom face severe financial discrimination. She shares the story of how this could have prevented the family from buying a home, and how it inspired her to become an advocate and mentor for women in the workplace. Plus money tips and  a preview of her new book “Dig Your Heels In”.

In Joan's money story you will learn:

• The important role her single mother played in her life

• The reason she felt like her mother was great role model

• Why her mother was charged more money for mortgage as a single parent

• The reason her mother believed it was important to know how to negotiate

“There are so many men that are coming to the table saying I believe my colleagues should be treated fairly and I want to be part of this new world where everyone has equal opportunity to go to a workplace that is fair.“

In Joan’s money lesson you will learn:

• Know what you deserve

"We’re never going to really achieve this inclusive culture in the workplace if we don’t dig our heels in and go after the things that we deserve"

In Joan's everyday money tip you will learn:

• How Joan's $200 cash rule can really help you to put your spending into perspective

"They were bragging to me telling me what their starting salary was. I used that to then tell people what I thought I deserved.“

In My Take you will learn:

• You can’t just say “I quit” and make it happen. There’s a lot of great things that can happen in a corporate job. So tread carefully before you jump. Also read her book.
  

• Keep your ears open and gather intel. Joan was able to negotiate a better deal because her male friends were bragging. Tune in to what others are saying.

Episode Links:

Joan's book Dig Your Heels In can also be bought here on Amazon

Check out Joan's website -

www.JoanKuhl.com

Follow Joan!

• Instagram - @JoanKuhl

• Twitter - @JoanKuhl

• Facebook - @JoanKuhlSpeaker

• LinkedIn - @JoanKuhl
  
  

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Transcription

Joan Kuhl:
I remember when we finally were able to move out of my grandparents house and she could afford to buy a condo outside of Philadelphia, and they increased her mortgage rate by two and a half percentage points because they considered her, as a single mother, as high risk.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of “How to be a Financial Grownup,” and you know what, being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay, we're going to get there today. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Financial Grownup friends. You may want to go back and replay that opening quote, it really happened, and yes, it is unbelievable. Welcome all, and to our new listeners, so glad you found us. Take a minute please, make sure you're subscribed, and say hi on the socials to let me know that you're here, RobbiRebell1 on Instagram, Bobbi on Twitter. Let's get to our guest, John Kuhl. K-U-H-L, Kuhl. She is the founder of "Why Millennials Matter" and the author of "Misunderstood Millennial Talent." Her latest book, which we're going to be talking about, is “Dig Your Heels In,” and when you hear in our interview about the incredible experiences her mom had, that's who she was talking about at the opening of the show, you're going to truly appreciate what a great role model Joan had in her mom and what a great role model Joan is. Here is Joan Kuhl.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Joan Kuhl, you're a financial grownup, welcome to the podcast.

Joan Kuhl:
Thank you, Bobbi. I'm excited to be with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm excited, because I got a sneak peek at your new book "Dig Your Heels In." You are both a speaker, you're a consultant, you founded "Why Millennial's Matter and also "Courage to Stay," and as I've mentioned, now you've got "Dig Your Heels In", which is really about how to navigate, I don't know, we try to keep the E off the show, so I'm just going to say the corporate BS and build the company that you deserve, which is a book long overdue. I wish, we were talking [inaudible 00:02:19] like I wish I had this book when I had my corporate jobs, Joan.

Joan Kuhl:
I know. Well, I'm here now, and so this is to empower the women that are working right now and make sure we pave the way for the next generation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. Speaking of next generation, you learned so much from your mom.

Joan Kuhl:
Yeah. So observing a mom that was really trying to build a better life for us, I remember when we finally were able to move out of my grandparents house and she could afford to buy a condo outside of Philadelphia, and they increased her mortgage rate by two and a half percentage points because they considered her, as a single mother, as high risk. So ridiculous.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, wait, wait, they charged her more money because she had one income as a single mother, therefore she should pay more?

Joan Kuhl:
Yup. They lobbed on extra points onto her interest, her mortgage rate just because they considered her high risk, and like it was little things like that that I observed. It wasn't until I was older and we had those conversations when I was going after my first job offer and she was really in my corner saying "Negotiate, read everything in details," because I think that's when we started to understand some of the discrimination against women.

Bobbi Rebell:
Many people don't realize, we take this for granted that as a woman you could own a home, but this was really revolutionary, and I guess that's why they were able to pay, make her pay more. I mean, you talk about the pink tax.

Joan Kuhl:
Yeah, it's funny, this, a lot of this connects into why I wrote "Dig Your Heels In," even just thinking about the decisions that women make and sometimes feel forced to make because they're in a male dominated situation or a situation ripe with bias, so yeah, of course ... My mother was actually a teacher, and then she became a secre- she had multiple jobs, she was a secretary and she was trying to get an advanced degree, and then she was logging miles to get her pilots license, ultimately to get her in the door to become an air traffic controller, because she was kind of studying these fields that she thought she had the skills to transition into that would give her a higher income, and ultimately triple her income from being an inner city school teacher. So it's just things like that that really inspired me "Okay, well women should be able to go after what we want, but we should also not be pushed out of fields that we love or companies that we work so hard to get in the door of because we're not being paid equally."

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and so there's the double irony. So she wasn't able to be paid equally to men, and yet she was being forced to pay more at the time than them. When she had this situation with for example the mortgage, at that time did she have any recourse? Was she able to negotiate at all or was it "If you want a mortgage, this is what it is?"

Joan Kuhl:
"This is what it is." It's funny, and now like I've seen over probably since my early teens, my mom will negotiate anything, even at an Anne Taylor in the mall, with her phone bills, and I think it was because of those experiences where she felt so scared, right? She's got like, even though I saw her as brave and courageous, you have a fear when you're a single parent of like, she just finally got the money to get us into a better home, you know, why would she risk not getting the loan approved just because they were discriminating against her in terms of the rate?

Bobbi Rebell:
That's incredible. So what is the lesson for our listeners from this story? Obviously, first of all always negotiate, but what do you think your lesson would be and what would your mom's lesson be?

Joan Kuhl:
Well, I think it is absolutely know what we deserve, and so I think it is not, sometimes when we are in a situation where we do think somebody might have more knowledge than us, so that's a situation where you're going for a home loan or something, and you think "Oh, well this person has the expertise, they have the credibility, and if they're pushing back on something I'm asking for maybe there's a legitimate reason," I wouldn't let it stop there. I think that's why there's so many amazing organizations right now of women talking to each other. One of the biggest things I've learned from my mom is we have to talk about money. One story I'll quickly share with you, I felt competent negotiation my salary and asking for a higher salary than most people when I graduated from college because of the net my friends that were guys that graduated the year before and were getting recruited by all these big consulting firms, they were bragging to me telling me what their starting salary was, but I used that to then tell people what I thought I deserved.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's amazing. What kind of reaction did you get when you asked for those higher numbers?

Joan Kuhl:
I will never forget sitting in front of this woman, and it was actually a hotel management company, and I told her and she literally laughed at me. She was so condescending, like she could not believe I had the gall [inaudible 00:06:39]-

Bobbi Rebell:
A woman?

Joan Kuhl:
A woman.

Bobbi Rebell:
Interesting.

Joan Kuhl:
Yeah, and it happens, right? And I said to her, and I just started spouting off, I'm like "This company, this company, Deloitte, Accenture, Price Waterhouse Coopers, all these companies, and this is the kind of benefits they offer, and I've, I'm in the final rounds of interviews with them too, so I also know I'm the number one candidate for this job." And this is where I always laugh when they say millennials are entitled. I think that anyone that's young that kind of has the [foreign language 00:07:02] to say "This is what I know is the market value, and I'm going to ..." And I already knew that I work my butt off wherever I went, and so I always felt that gave me the confidence to say "Hey, this is what I believe I'm worth," and also "Hi, look how much it costs to go to school these days."

Bobbi Rebell:
It's interesting, the men will discuss money as a way of bragging, but very often women don't discuss it at all.

Joan Kuhl:
Yeah, exactly. I even just remember when we were at graduation and my mom was so proud, and my godmother came with her too to my, and I was the speaker at my graduation, huge university, University of Pittsburgh for the College of Business, and a couple of my girlfriends that we were all, had been presidents of clubs and had multiple job offers, our parents were like so excited talking to each other, and we were so embarrassed that they were talking about that we had these jobs, or the amount of money, or what the salaries were, whereas we knew that all the guys around us were like high fiving, they were telling their older brothers, ever- it was just, it's this strange thing that we feel like we have to shrink ourselves versus just talk about something that allows us to really feel on a level playing field.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's I think where men can actually be our partners and our assets, because we are their daughters, their wives, their friends, their girlfriends, their sisters, their nieces and so on, and they want to support us, so I think it's great that you really got support and information from your male friends and classmates to get that better offer, and that's why it's really an issue for everyone, and I think it's important that it be addressed that men can be our best advocates and our best assets in this as well.

Joan Kuhl:
Yeah, I've [inaudible 00:08:47] a lot of men and allies programs, and healthcare companies and sports companies, and there are so many men that are coming to the table saying "I want, I believe my colleagues should be treated fairly and I want to be a part of this new world where everyone has equal opportunity to go to a workplace that's fair and access, equally accessible to advancement, anything that we want."

Bobbi Rebell:
Well said. Let's move on to your everyday money tip Joan, because this is something we can all relate to, but we don't always do, and we should. Go for it.

Joan Kuhl:
So I have this 200 dollar cash rule that kind of by happenstance became a trick that I use, and I think it was because A, I used to realize I never had cash on me all the time, and living in New York City it's a must have, but it also allows me to see where unexpected things come up. So now as a mother, I have a five and a one-year-old, you've got birthday parties, or there's sometimes where, I always try to save and take public transportation, buses and subways, pride myself on that, but I look at the 200 dollar rule, I take it out on the first of the month, like I took it out this morning, and guess what, unfortunately today I got my hair done this morning, so I'm halfway done with that, with-

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:09:51].

Joan Kuhl:
[crosstalk 00:09:51] dollars cash. Yeah, but that's the thing, I always say "Okay, this is my barometer of like how well I'm planning for my expenses." It's not like budgeting, but things come up like the birthday gifts or, you know, my daughter needs something extra for an after school activity, or I am like "You know what? I want to go out tonight and I didn't plan for it." So that's kind of my rule, is just looking at where the cash goes.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think that's really important, because it also gives you an indication if that's how fast your actual cash is going, which can feel more painful, think how much is going that's sort of just automated in your life, that's being sucked out of your bank accounts for all of this bills, which we should automate of course, but we don't really feel it the same way. At least with the cash you're feeling it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's talk about your book "Dig Your Heels In." So important. I feel like this is sort of the next wave. We had "Lean In," and that made sense to a lot of people at that time, but now you've really hit on something that is so important. "Dig Your Heels In," really, it's a metaphor, but it's not, it's literal too to a large degree. I love a quote from the book that you say, "By leaving your company are you running away from something or running towards something? Are you jumping ship because you just 'can't deal any longer,' or is the new opportunity something that really excites you and fulfills your career ambition?" Because sometimes, there's a lot of running away Joan, there really is.

Joan Kuhl:
Yeah. And I always say digging your heels in is a personal decision, and so I am in no way, shape or form telling everyone to grin and bear it if your situation's toxic, but the majority of the time the women that I have met over the years, I've interviewed hundreds of women around the world for global research projects, you get backed into a corner, and I think sometimes the sexy thing in popular culture right now is to get a bigger title, or a bigger promotion, or more money if you jump and ghost ship, or that the only way to advance is to be a girl boss and start your own thing, but the truth is you have so much equity in where you are right now and so much opportunity to really transform that company, and taking stock, taking a deep breath, really thinking about those ah-ha moments, what is really frustrating you there and how can you turn that into fuel and really disrupt the status quo? We're never going to, I think really achieve this inclusive culture and workplace if we don't dig our heels in and go after the things that we deserve.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you also point out in the book that we think that we're the only ones feeling a certain way, but you interviewed the very highest achieving female executives who look, their lives look perfect on the outside, and as you got to know them and as they opened up to you these top executives were barely surviving rather than thriving as you perceived them to be.

Joan Kuhl:
Yeah, that threw me completely for a loop. I was so naive in my mindset thinking they were living this glamorous career, personal and professional lives, and to really hear their battle scars of what they had gone through and they endured taught me a lot about sometime that dynamic between women at work in different generations, but also that we still have so much work to do. I interviewed Reece Witherspoon a couple months ago who also told me that she has bouts with imposter syndrome. I mean, it's Reece Witherspoon. So one of side of this is the self limiting mindset that we can figure out how to overcome, and some of that is pushed on us because of bias in the system and around us, but the other side of it is the system's broken, and I think that's why we need to identify some tactical ways to change it, and that's why I want "Dig Your Heels In to be a real playbook that shows examples of women doing just that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that because you have a lot of these broad strokes, you have a lot of really important statistics in this book, but you also interview women and give very specific stories that are relatable to all of us, and we see ourselves in that and there's a lot of value in that, so I really hope everyone will pick up "Dig Your Heels In." So Joan, just to wrap up tell us where people can get the book and hear more about you and be in touch with you, your socials, all that good stuff?

Joan Kuhl:
Awesome. So I have a brand new website, JoanKuhl.com J-O-A-N K-U-H-L. "Dig Your Heels In," we have a fantastic website that's DigYourHeelsIn.com and the book is sold everywhere books are sold, so Amazon, Barns and Noble, Books-A-Million, Target, Walmart, you name it. If you order it and you go and enter your information on my website you will get a ton of free resources that I developed as things that are master classes on work and life hacks and some great jumpstart your career guides. And on social, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook I'm @JoanKuhl as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Thank you, Joan.

Joan Kuhl:
Thanks, Bobbi. I love talking to you.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right my friends, here's my take. Financial grown up tip number one, I want to address something that Joan alluded to, but we didn't really get to explore fully, and that is that we are having a cultural moment where we really glorify the idea of the entrepreneur, of being the boss babe and so on. We hear so many stories about being a boss, and changes in cultural norms and in technology do allow a lot more entrepreneurship, but don't be fooled. There is no paycheck coming every two weeks, at least not for a long time for most entrepreneurs, and of course there's that healthcare thing, and you can't just say "I quit" and just instantly have a business. There are a lot of things that go on in order to have a successful business, and it rarely is an overnight success. There are usually years of hard work behind the scenes that you don't hear about when you read these articles of what seems like overnight successes. So it's important that you acknowledge and understand that as Joan talks about, there are a lot of great things that can happen in a corporate job as well. You can be an intrapreneur, which means you sort of build little businesses within a company, but with the company's support, which includes of course that ongoing paycheck and that financial security of a job. So tread carefully before you jump, and also of course read Joan's book.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial grown up tip number two, keep your ears open and gather intel. Joan was able to negotiate a better deal because her male friends were bragging. Tune in to what others of both sexes are saying. That can be in person and it can also be maybe in chat rooms online, it can be being part of a mastermind group or even on social media platforms, for example Facebook Groups and so on. It's a cliché for a reason, information is power.

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you all enjoyed spending time with us today, now I need your help. Please make sure you are subscribed, and if you have friends or colleagues that you think will enjoy these interviews and these podcast episodes with, for example amazing role models like Joan, please encourage them to subscribe as well, and of course ratings and reviews are gold to us, we appreciate every single one. Big thanks to "Dig Your Heels In" author Joan Kuhl for helping us all get one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbie Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Boreland Group Founder and CEO Jennefer Witter learned early on that the best way to get clients was to offer extreme value. But to stay in business, and continue to serve the clients, the author of the Little Book of Big PR also learned when to put the brakes on the discounts. 

In Jennefer’s money story you will learn:

-How to utilize a current network to create a new one

-Why Jennefer values transparency with her clients and how it helped her build a business

-Ways to find out what to charge new clients

In Jennefer’s money lesson you will learn:

-How to create meaningful relationships with new clients

-Three ways to look at the return on investment

-Why Jennefer always sets a definite stop date with her clients

In Jennefer's everyday money tip you will learn:

-The one question Jennefer asks that saves her small business big bucks

-Why it's good to be aggressive in business negotiations

In My Take you will learn:

-Take an angle that makes you eligible for discounts

-Why sometimes working for free has the biggest pay off

Bobbi and Jennefer also talk about:

-Jennefer mentioned that she gets a small business discount for ProfNet, which helps her public relations company get leads

EPISODE LINKS:

Jennefer's book is available online here

Check out The Boreland Group's website here

Follow Jennefer! 

Twitter: @JenneferTBG

Linked In: @Jennefer Witter

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Transcription

Jennefer W.:
It was a six month program, and yes I invested, when you added up over $10,000, but what I got back through that $10,000, was multiples in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are listening to, Financial Grownup, with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of, How To Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? Being a grown-up is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're gonna get there together. I'm gonna bring you one money story, from a financial grown-up, one lesson, and then, my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, financial grown-up friends. Every business, or pretty much every business, I would think, starts as a start-up, and every business has to get that very first sale, and that very first client, and to make it happen, in most cases, that first client, that first sale, the business owner has to be willing to lose money on the bet, that they will win over that first client, and build from there, but many businesses make a mistake, in that, they don't really set the expectations right, and then when they do have to raise the price, so that they can actually make money, they get backlash, because the client's expectations were not aligned with the realities of the business.

Bobbi Rebell:
Our guest, public relations whiz, Jennefer Witter, who is the head of, The Boreland Group, and by the way, literally, wrote the book on PR. It's called, The Little Book of Big PR, was careful in her approach at that delicate start-up stage, and it has served her well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome everyone. We have a lot of new listeners, that we are very excited about. The show's are short, about 15 minutes, because you're busy, but of course, you can binge, stack a few together. Maybe if you're commuting, have a little more time to listen. Consider it flextime for podcasts, and with that, let's get to our amazing guest. Here is Jennefer Witter.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Jennefer Witter. You are a financial grown-up. Welcome to the podcast.

Jennefer W.:
I am so thrilled to be on, Bobbi. How are you?

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I'm excited to finally snag you. You are one busy lady. You are, the CEO and Founder of the boutique, Boreland Group, and you're also the author of a book that I loved reading, 'cause I'm kind of on the other side of it. It's The Little Book of Big PR, which is awesome, and it really is a little book.

Jennefer W.:
It's a tiny little book. It's a paperback, softcover. You can also get it as an e-book, and I wanted it to be little, because you know what it's like as an entrepreneur.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah.

Jennefer W.:
You have some things on your desk. You have to do this. You have to do that. You don't want to be reading, War and Peace.

Bobbi Rebell:
No.

Jennefer W.:
So, with the full book of Big PR, the full title is, The Little Book of Big PR: 100+ Quick Tips to Get Your Small Business Noticed, is you can read a chapter here, a chapter there, or you can read it all at once, and it will not take you more than a couple of hours to read it, and you walk away with information that you can readily use in your business practice.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love that, and you are an entrepreneur. Your business has grown, but when it first started, you had to make some difficult choices, and we always say, "Don't undervalue yourself. Don't give away services for free, but it's kind of complicated." Tell us your mini story.

Jennefer W.:
Well, here's the thing. When I first started The Boreland Group, it was 15 years ago. I really didn't think about becoming an entrepreneur. So, when I decided to do it, it was just like, "You know what? I don't have clients. I don't have any income coming in."

Jennefer W.:
So, I reached out to everybody that I knew, and I said, "Do you know of somebody, who is looking for a boutique public relations firm?" And I got one response back, after sending out like 200 emails, and it was a friend of mine, and he said, "I have a friend, who's sister-in-law is looking for a publicist." And when I met with her, she did not want to pay what I was charging at that time, and so, what I decided to do was invest, because I only was going to have one client, and I knew that once I got that one client, once I got that chance, I would have those doors open.

Jennefer W.:
So, what I did was, she paid me [crosstalk 00:04:20].

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait. Let me just stop you there. So, you say what you were charging, but the truth is, you were charging no one because you had no clients.

Jennefer W.:
No. No clients.

Bobbi Rebell:
This was your first client. Right. So, you had an idea of what you wanted to charge, but you didn't have a rate that you were getting. So, you needed to start building your client roster.

Jennefer W.:
Oh, absolutely, and so what I did with this one client was, and I'll give everything as transparent. I charged her $1,800.00 a month. One thousand, eight hundred dollars, and then, I invested another $1,800.00 into her. So, it normally would have been $3,600.00, but I was only getting back $1,800.00.

Jennefer W.:
Now, you may say, "You're giving away your services." And I absolutely was, but I knew that once people saw what I was doing, getting her into the media, getting her speaking opportunities, that I would be able to build upon this client that I had, into a client portfolio, and after [crosstalk 00:05:16].

Bobbi Rebell:
Was this client, Jennifer, let me ask you, was she aware? Did she really only have budget for $1,800.00, and was she aware that she was getting, quote, double the value of what you felt you should be paid?

Jennefer W.:
Oh, she was absolutely aware, and what I told her was, for this first six months, I would charge her $1,800.00, and at the end of the six months, it would go up to the $3,600.00. So, she was fully aware, and I wrote a program, and I said, "This is what you're going to get overall." And I said, "This part you're going to be paying for. This part is what I'm investing in." And I put together a plan, that was very tight, because you have to be careful about such things. You don't want to say, "I'm going to give you $1,800.00." And you wind up giving somebody $5,000.00. You definitely need to have parameters, that you don't sink yourself before you swim, and once I started to do that, and then I started leveraging, and I'd say, "I have this client. This is what we're doing."

Jennefer W.:
When I was meeting with the media, some of the media saw what I was doing, and they sent some direct clients over to her, and at the end of the six months, I did a new program for her at the full price, $3,600.00, and she knew that it was coming. She saw the work that I was doing. She appreciated everything that I was doing, and more than that, she saw the value. She signed the account. I got paid the $3,600.00. I had other clients, who were paying that amount, and my business was based on an investment, that I knew would pay off in the long run, and it did.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what is the takeaway for our listeners? Among young people, there's a lot of talk coming up in business, that it's really important to be aggressive with your pricing, and not undersell yourself.

Jennefer W.:
You know, I wasn't underselling myself, and you have to want to give, in order to get, and when you have zero clients, and you have the opportunity to get a client, who you know will be the foundation of growing your business, you need to take that step, and you need to invest, and know that at the end of that six months, or whatever timeframe you're going to get your money back. You have to look at the big picture. You have to be long term, and you have to look at that ROI, the return on investment. It can't stretch out forever in eternity.

Jennefer W.:
You need to have a definite stop date, which is exactly what I did with this client. It was a six month program, and yes I invested, when you added up over $10,000.00, but what I got back through that $10,000.00, was multiples in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
That is a great story. Let's talk about your every day money tip, because it also pertains to when you start a business, and you're the small guy, you still need to have the tools, that the big guys have, but they are expensive. So, you have a tip on how you can save, if you are an individual, or a small boutique business, and you have to be assertive about it. Go for it.

Jennefer W.:
Oh, absolutely, and what you need to do, this is what I did. I am a small business. I've always been a small business, and whenever you're going out for products and services, if it's expensive, you know you have to use it, but tell them, "You know what? I'm a small business. Do you have a small business discount? What can you give me? I'm not the Edelmanns, or the Ketchums of the world. I'm not pulling in like $30-$40 million a year. I'm pulling in a fraction, but what I am is a client, and there's more of me than there are of the Ketchums, and the Edelmanns, and the large corporations."

Jennefer W.:
So, if you go out there, and you are aggressive, if you are forceful, and you say, "Look, I'm a small business. I'll be a loyal client. Give me that discount, that I know that you can give me." Let me tell you, it works.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just so our listeners who aren't familiar, you were referencing large public relations firms, 'cause you are in the public relations business. So, can you give us a tangible example, of something that you bought when you were starting out, or buy now, and approximately what it would cost for a large business, and approximately what it would cost for a ... how much you can get a discount from, from sort of the list price, so people have an idea of how much you can ask for?

Jennefer W.:
Sure. One of the services that I use is called, ProfNet, and it's specific to the PR community. What it is, you get pushed about 100 leads a day, and you go through them seeing which ones are, that you can respond to. It's from reporters. It's from producers. They're looking for interview topics for the stories that they are writing or producing.

Jennefer W.:
For large companies, it's several thousand dollars a year. I'm not exactly sure. Like $3,000.00 or $4,000.00, and by making it clear, and asking for a discount, and saying that I am a small business, I got it for less than $1,000.00 a year. So, right there and then, I was able to save about, over $2,000.00, that I would have paid ordinarily, if I had not spoken up and say, "Hey, I'm a small business. I'm a solopreneur. What can you do for me?" And it worked, and I saved a lot of money, because of that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where can we find you, and find out more about you?

Jennefer W.:
Well, you can always find me on Twitter, which is J-E-N-N-E-F-E-R-T-B-G. You can go to my website, which is The Boreland Group dot com. B-O-R-E-L-A-N-D Group dot com, and I'm on LinkedIn, and again, my first name is spelled funny. It's J-E-N-N-E-F-E-R, and the last name is W-I-T-T-E-R. No h.

Bobbi Rebell:
Is there a story behind the spelling of your name?

Jennefer W.:
You know what? I wish. I just think it was a nurse, who spelled it incorrectly. Both parents deny spelling it with the e, and it's on my birth certificate, so it got there some way.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so funny. Okay. Love that, but it sets you apart. So, there you go. We're all unique in our own way. Thank you so much, Jennefer, with an e, Witter. This was amazing. Thank you.

Jennefer W.:
Thank you, Bobbi, with an I.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, Friends. Alright, let's get right to it. Financial Grownup Tip Number One: Jennefer does a great job asking for discounts, because she is running a small business. That is the angle that she uses. So, think about what your angle is. There's countless ways for you to get a better price, or a better deal in some way, on just about anything, work or personal. You gotta find your angle.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of my favorite ways to get a discount on something that I need, for example, for my business, but don't want to pay the full price, or can't afford the full price. Maybe it's not in my budget. I say that. I just reach out and say to the vendor, "That's just not in my budget right now. Will you be in touch, if and when you have something that's an alternative to the offering, or maybe you can offer me a price reduction, an option that can work within my budget?"

Bobbi Rebell:
I have always gotten a response, and in almost every case, we've been able to work out a way for me to become a client, because ultimately, that's what they want. They want to get you in to their system, as a client, at some level, and then hopefully, later on down the road, they can increase how much you're spending, because you'll see the value in the product.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup Tip Number Two: So, here's the flip side of all that. The most important part of Jennefer's money story, isn't that she lowered the price for her client, or did some of the work for free, however you want to look at it. To get a new client, it's that she had a strategy to end it. Expectations were set right at the outset. So, let's just say, you're on the other side of the business that I just talked about, where you had a business owner like myself coming to you saying, "It's just not in my budget." And you work out a deal to get me onboard. The important thing is to set expectations to say, "Okay, we're gonna do this for one year, and then, in a year when you see the value and hopefully your business is doing better, and your budget would have increased, you're gonna come in at the regular price." And they're hoping, that I, the business owner, will see the value.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, it's important, as Jennefer did, to work with clients when they need you to work with them, but also have them recognize that they are getting something of value, that maybe they're not paying the full price for, and that the expectation is, down the road, the price will meet the level that it needs to be at, for the business owner to sustain their business, because at the end of the day, if you enjoy doing business with somebody, you like their product, you want them to stay in business, and to do so, you need to make a profit. All good things.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another great thing. If you enjoyed this podcast, let a friend know. Help us grow the show. Also, share it on social media. On Twitter, I am at Bobbi Rebell. On Instagram at Bobbi Rebell One, and DM me with your feedback. A lot of you have been doing that, and it's really great for me to hear which episodes really resonate, and what you want to hear more of, and maybe what you're not that into. That's okay too.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love hearing all of it, and as I have mentioned on previous episodes, we are now gearing up to do bonus episodes, which will include listener questions. So, send them in. You can DM me on the socials that I just mentioned, or you can email me them at, hello at Financial Grownup dot com. That's, hello at Financial Grownup dot com.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am such a fan of Jennefer's. She has so much to offer. Do check out her book, The Little Book of Big PR, and of course, The Boreland Group, and thank you, Jennefer, for helping us all get one step closer to being financial grown-ups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell, is edited and produced by, Steve Stewart, and is a BRK Media Production.

“The Big Life” author and former Seventeen Magazine Editor-in-Chief Ann Shoket’s boss literally mocked her when she asked to get paid more as a young magazine editor. Now, she knows better. Ann shares the one thing she does to find out what to ask for in negotiations, and how she leverages it to make more money. 

 

In Ann’s money story you will learn:

-How as a young magazine editor, Ann loved her job, but her compensation was not in line with her contributions. 

-How Ann prepared to approach her manager about a raise

-The shocking reason the manager denied her request

-The uncharacteristic response Ann gave to his pushback

-Exactly what Ann would do if she could do it over

In Ann’s lesson you will learn:

-How the resources of today could have helped Ann get that raise

-The specific advice Ann offers millennials 

-Where and how exactly listeners can get the information they need to better negotiate

-How to find out what you are worth in the job market

In Anne’s money tip you will learn:

-The best way to approach colleagues and friends to share salary and compensation information

-How e-mail vs IRL compare in sharing sensitive information about compensation and other career advice 

-Why it is so important to Ann that she help other women

-The specific language Ann uses in her conversations about money and other compensation with her peers

-How to handle issues of competition with peers and colleagues after sharing information

-What Ann learned from millennials about transparency

In my take you will learn:

-The importance of creating networks and career allies to share pay and other relevant information

-How to decide and communicate boundaries regarding the information

-How to decide if it is best to share information over email or IRL

-The importance of security when sharing sensitive information online

 

Episode Links:

Ann’s Ted Talk: Why We Should All Be More Millennial 

Anne’s book The Big Life: Embrace the Mess, Work Your Side Hustle, Fie a Monumental Relationship and Become the Badass Babe You Were Meant to Be

Anne's website:

AnnShoket.com

Follow Ann!!

Twitter @annshoket

Instagram: @annshoket

Facebook Ann.Shoket

LinkedIn Ann Shoket

---

Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
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Ann Shoket:
He looked at me and he said, "You know Ann, you don't go into journalism to get rich." I was so stunned. I wasn't asking to get rich, I just wanted to pay my bills.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey everyone. So this episode is going to be a treat and perfect for anyone that feels they could, and let's face it, should, be earning more money. You may have a boss you need to convince or you may have your own business and need to figure out how to charge your clients more and grow your business. Ann Shoket is a big name. She first became famous as the editor-in-chief of Seventeen Magazine and was named by Forbes to be one of the most powerful U.S. fashion magazine editors. More recently, she penned The Big Life and started a Badass Babes community. And being a badass herself, she also has an amazing TED Talk called Why We Should All Be More Millennial. Which brings us to the advice she is going to share, because it is about using that idea to get paid more money. Here is Ann Shoket.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ann Shoket, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Ann Shoket:
Oh, I'm so excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Congratulation on your massive bestseller, The Big Life, and more recently your TED Talk, which I've now watched a number of times. You are literally the Jane Goodall of millennials, so I'm so excited to be talking with you.

Ann Shoket:
Thank you. I have devoted my career to understanding millennials and supporting them and helping them find their power.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which brings us to the money story that you're going to share, which really has to do with trading money for meaning at work. Because of the importance really of meaning, because we spend so much time at work.

Ann Shoket:
So when I was sort of mid-level editor coming up in the world, just past the stage of eating ramen and scrounging and going to happy hours to have dinner, where I had some experience under my belt and a little bit of a salary, I was creating new content for my company and doing great innovations and I wanted to get paid more. And I remember I walked into my boss and I came in with a list of things that I had achieved, I'm no dummy, you know, you come in with these [crosstalk 00:03:09].

Bobbi Rebell:
So you were prepared, right.

Ann Shoket:
It wasn't entitlement, I was prepared for this conversation, and he looked at me and he said, "You know Ann, you don't go into journalism to get rich." And I was so stunned. I wasn't asking to get rich, I just wanted to pay my bills. And frankly, I wanted to get paid for the work I was doing and for the good work that I knew I was bringing them. And I remember feeling instantly small, as if I had asked for too much or my ambition was too obvious, and I backed off of my request. I felt small, I retreated. He made me feel like I should feel lucky to be in that position. And maybe it's true, it's a competitive world that we're in-

Bobbi Rebell:
But you had worked for that position. I mean, yes, many other people would love to be in that position but you had earned it and you were working.

Ann Shoket:
And probably the worst part is I loved my job, I really did and he knew it. I loved my job, I was engaged, I was doing good work, I was doing work I felt was meaningful. I was on my path to finding what felt like my purpose, I was doing something real. And he used that to make me feel small in a salary negotiation and I didn't go for the big dollars and I didn't push hard and I backed off immediately. And could I do it all over again, I might have left that meeting, gone back to my desk, and then come back with a nuts and bolts, "Here's what other people are making in my position." It was at a time where frankly we didn't have Glass Door, we didn't have a million ways to check our salaries, so I didn't know what other people were making.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, was it that other people were making more or that they were just paying you very little? We don't really know I guess, we don't know.

Ann Shoket:
I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
We don't know.

Ann Shoket:
I don't know. But had I had the resources available that we have today and had I had the benefit of greater perspective on the world, I would have taken that moment and figured out how to get paid what I thought I deserved at that time. I would have really pushed for it rather than feeling small and retreating.

Bobbi Rebell:
So now we are years later, you are the voice for so many millennials, you are teaching them so much. What is your lesson from this that you would share to them if they find themselves in a similar situation?

Ann Shoket:
Knowledge is power. So if you know what other people at your level, in your company, who sit next to you in the competitive company, are making then you have a much greater leverage to get paid what you deserve. Women say to me all the time, "I just want to get paid what I'm worth," and I am like, "That's great, except for how do you know what you're worth?" And the only way to know is to share your salary information.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Ann Shoket:
If you walk away from this interview right now with only one thing, it's share your salary information with a trusted colleague, someone who sits next to you, your regular lunch buddy, but share your salary information. It's not gratuitous, it's not for gossip purposes, but it's so that you know and are better prepared when you go into your own salary negotiation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So sticking to this theme for your money tip, you've talked about sharing your salary information but are there specific ways and specific resources that you can tell people about that can accomplish this goal? Because it's a little bit awkward to just go up to people and say, "Oh hey, tell me what you're making and I'll tell you what I make and it will be all good." I mean, how do you actually ... Are there certain things that you look for with someone that you feel you can trust them? Are there websites you can go to, are there chat groups? Specifically how does this happen? Because it's awkward, right?

Ann Shoket:
It is awkward and I'll tell you, the first time that someone asked me to ballpark my salary for them it came in an email-

Bobbi Rebell:
And was it a close friend, was it someone you knew well?

Ann Shoket:
It was a colleague.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Ann Shoket:
Not a close friend. It was a colleague and we had been supportive of each other over the years. And at first I was so shocked, I was like, "Can you believe the nerve of this woman! I would never share my salary information with her!" And I calmed down and tried to get a little perspective and I gave her some sort of halfway information that she may be able to use, I didn't go all the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
In writing, in writing.

Ann Shoket:
I did, I emailed her back in writing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Ann Shoket:
However, if I did it again I would 100% ballpark and tell her the number. I was so stunned by it but I realize she was so ahead of the curve in even asking. And I have since been in a position to help other women where I've talked about what I got paid and about the ins and outs of my book deal to help other women in getting their book deal. I have had women who have helped me as I've been building a speaking practice, women who've been tremendously supportive, because it's all brand new.

Ann Shoket:
You know, one of the things about having careers that are more complicated and more evolved than we ever planned for is that suddenly you're being thrust into totally new arenas and you have to figure out how to take the skills that you have but make them work in new places and in new ways. How do you do that unless somebody gives you the lay of the land? And so that's another piece of this sisterhood, this idea that we should all support each other so that we can rise together as women and be collaborative and powerful.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, just to be specific about this, how do you know when it's okay to trust somebody or do you try to ... You were comfortable doing it in an email, you don't feel you have to pick up the phone or meet someone in person.

Ann Shoket:
I think when you're talking real numbers, I think it's okay to send an email that says, "Hey, can I talk to you about this? I'm interested in finding out what you charge or how you got paid or how the deal went down," in an email, to be clear about what it is that you're asking them. But then to have the real nuts and bolts money conversation in person, I think is probably smart. That's how the last couple of conversations that I've had have gone. But I think it has to be someone you trust, who's not going to feel competitive, someone who's going to give you good, smart information. And I think that you find those people in your network, maybe they're not someone who sits next to you at work, maybe it's not your work wife, although you probably should share some of this information with your work wife. But it is people who are going to be in your life for a while, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Ann Shoket:
You're going to see them at industry events, you're going to be up for the same jobs, you're going to see them schmoozing here and there, you're going to see them at parities-

Bobbi Rebell:
What do you do if you find out that there's a big disparity?

Ann Shoket:
I think the only thing to do ... I mean, yes, maybe it's awkward with the two of you but I think it's better to say now you know and now you can go to your boss and let them know that you know and to be clear. One of the most interesting things about this transparency that millennials have brought into the world is that Gen Xers are so supremely uncomfortable with it, we think it's TMI and that it's oversharing and that the system, sort of old systems, are set up to keep you in line and to keep you not knowing. And those don't really serve us moving forward, the transparency that millennials are demanding is going to become second nature for all of us. And so I think it's a smart company that honors this kind of transparency rather than shuts it down.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well said. All right, Ann Shoket, I know that you are so busy on the speaker circuit and with all of your projects. Tell us more about what you're up to these days and where people can find you.

Ann Shoket:
So since the TED Talk, Why We Should All Be More Millennial, I have actually been doing a ton of speaking. It is, in so many ways, a love letter to millennials, to a generation that I believe is going to lead our future and is changing the way we define power and success. But it's also incredibly important for boomers and Xers, and there's this real tension at work between boomers and Xers and the millennial employees that are coming up behind them. And it is my goal to make everybody come together so that we can rise together as women.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can people find you?

Ann Shoket:
Annshoket.com is the best, fastest way to find The Big Life, to find my speaking, to find my TED Talk.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is awesome, by the way. And on social media?

Ann Shoket:
Annshoket.com on Instagram, ann.shoket on Facebook, annshoket on Twitter. You can find me everywhere, I'm very easy to find. A-N-N, S-H-O-K-E-T.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. Thank you so much, this has been amazing.

Ann Shoket:
Thank you Bobbi, I love it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love how direct Ann was, I feel there were a lot of takeaways but this is what I'm going to focus on. Financial grownup tip number one, create networks and career allies to share pay and career information. But this is what I'm adding, treat it kind of like any successful relationship, in that you need to respect the boundaries and you also need to respect that even though you're being transparent with each other that doesn't mean that the information goes beyond that relationship, you need to respect the other person and their privacy. Be sure to vet someone also before you reveal too much, and keep the information that is said between the two of you, or the group, private unless it is clearly agreed that it is for public disclosure. Ann and I have shared career information and goals, but that remains private.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial grownup tip number two. When you have these conversations, Ann points out that while you can initiate via email, you should have the real conversation in real life, in person, face to face. Meeting in person is worth the time, at the very least, do it by phone. On your end, you don't want to create a paper trail with information that you don't want to go beyond the intended recipient. No matter how well-intentioned they are, things happen, be secure with your information.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. The minute this podcast is over, I want everyone to go listen to Ann Shoket's TED Talk, Why We Should All Be More Millennial. I will leave a link in the show notes. Then check out her book, The Big Life, and follow her on social media. I want to hear your money story and get some great money tips from you, our listeners. We are going to be starting having one episode a month be a listener as our guest. If you want to be considered, email us at info@financialgrownup.com and tell us what money story, lesson, and money tip you would share.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you all for your support. If you like what you are hearing please don't forget to hit the subscribe button so you won't miss any upcoming episodes. And of course, rate and review the show, especially on iTunes. Anywhere is good, but especially iTunes so more people can learn about the show. And on that note, please share this with a friend so we can share these stories with more people and help them live richer lives. Follow me on Twitter @bobbirebell, on Instagram @bobbirebell1, learn more about the show at bobbirebell.com/financialgrownuppodcast. I adore Ann and I hope you do now too. It was a great episode and here's to us all getting one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.