Yay! for Money tips from Meaghan Murphy, author of Your Fully Charged Life (ENCORE)

Woman’s Day Editor-in-Chief Meaghan Murphy shares how her enthusiasm for things she loves turns into sales.  Plus tips for dealing with toxic bosses at work, why she loves coupons even more than ever, and a preview of her awesome new book "Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay."

 

Meaghan’s Money Tips

Bobbi Rebell:
For any doubters who don't see the connection between happiness, and a positive attitude, and success like, being really good at selling. There it is. There is a connection. Even though it comes so naturally to you Meaghan, that you don't see it. There is a huge connection. Let's get into some of the tips. So the first one that I want to talk about is how to deal with toxic bosses or colleagues?

Meaghan Murphy:
Avoid them as much as possible. Give and requests only much information as needed as to do your job. Keep things professional. Don't get sucked into that. I also say, ignore the bait and bite your tongue instead. I love Terri Cole. She has a new book coming out too called Boundary Boss, but she calls it being unprovokable. And I find being unprovokable and using that word as sort of a mantra, I'm unprovokable, I find it very empowering. So no matter what somebody spews at me, how somebody is trying to drag me down, I just don't fall for the bait. I bite my tongue and I smile and I don't fall for it. And I find it's very gratifying, right, to be unprovokable. I highly recommend that. I also say, always kill them with kindness. I'm always going to be kind. I'm always going to be generous.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm always going to be helpful. And even if there's a little piece of me that dies in the process, I am absolutely going to kill them with kindness. And I find that the haters often come around. And one of my favorite, like sort of Instagram bumper stickers is hustle until the haters ask, if you're hiring. This has happened to me quite often, where I've stayed above the fray. I haven't given them a lot of my brain space, or my energy, or my focus. I've sort of created this force field of positivity against that toxic energy. And eventually they soften up and they suddenly want to be my friend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And the next one actually ties into this very well. It's something you learned from Shonda Rhimes when you edited one of her interviews.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm obsessed with Shonda. I was the executive editor at Good Housekeeping at the time. And she was like, always have hard conversations ASAP. Don't wait for a good time. Right? We angst about when we're going to have this conversation, because we got to wait for the right time. We've got wait for that right moment. Well, guess what? That right moment never actually happens. And you've wasted energy and bandwidth angsting about when it's going to happen. Do it ASAP. Just have the hard conversation. And I've done that where like, I can feel my palms sweating. I can feel my voice shaking. I'm getting the sweats, but I am absolutely going to pick up the phone or walk into the office and have that really, really difficult conversation without hesitation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So easy to say, so hard to do. But I'm going to work on that. I know I've had a really hard time with that myself. You also say something that a lot of people have said the opposite. So I think our listeners are going to really benefit from hearing about this. You say respond to every email.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's super counterintuitive, right? Because doesn't that seem like a time suck? And I guess I should make the caveat, every email that the person... Like so if it's spam, they've spelled your name wrong, gotten the name of your publication wrong, that can be a delete. But if someone has taken the time to engage with you. If a publicist reaches out to me and say, oh, Meaghan, looks like you had a great time in St. Thomas from your Instagram. I've got this great pitch. I think it could be a fit for this section. They deserve a response. That's a kindness, that's a professional courtesy. And in so many instances where I've responded and said, you know what? This is not a fit for me. I'm going to keep it top of mind. Or I've exchanged some kind of a kindness of like that was a great pitch.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's not right for me. Maybe it's right for so-and-so over here. Did you think about that? I have benefited from those interactions in so many crazy ways where they're like, oh, you know what? You should know this person, or what about this or... Good things come to you when you're a good human being. It's this kindness networking boomerang. And I can't tell you how good it feels to walk through a trade show and be like, oh, that's Meaghan Murphy. She's the best. She always responds to email. She's so courteous and polite. It's a kindness that I will extend to anyone who makes a concerted effort to contact me.

Bobbi Rebell:
And these are people that you're basically saying no to, which is amazing.

Meaghan Murphy:
I kind of think of the world as like a Lite Brite board. Do you remember Lite Brite boards when you were a kid?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

 
 

Meaghan Murphy:
And the more of those colorful pegs you put into the board, the clearer the picture gets, and eventually you have this bright, vibrant, interesting picture. To me I sort of look like people and connections and ideas as those pegs, those little lights. And the more I put in the board, the clearer the picture becomes, the more it lights up. And so I am never worried that if I introduce you to so-and-so, then somehow there's less work for me. Or if I connect to these two people, I'm going to be boxed out. Absolutely not. I assume that we all have our own secret sauce. We all shine in our own way. And my shine doesn't diminish yours and your shine doesn't diminish mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important. Because that's something that I have been so relieved about as I've embarked on my own journey, independent from corporate life. I was afraid that people wouldn't want to help me, but it's been just the opposite. I feel like so many people have been so kind and opened up doors. And hopefully I do just as much for other people. Because if you are secure in what you're doing and what you bring to the table, no one else is you. So there's nothing to fear.

Meaghan Murphy:
And here's the deal though. That's hard earned. I'm a 45 year old mother of three. Who's been at this for 25 years. Did I feel that way in my 20s? Probably not so much. Right. I was probably more protective of my ideas, and my successes, and my connections back in the day. I've learned my lesson. Right? I understand that we lift each other up and all the cliches, real queens fix each other's crowns. I do better when I'm lifting others up. And I find it always pays me back in unexpected ways. And so yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. Absolutely. Okay. I want to whip through a few quick hit, simple things that people can do. And these are examples. There are tons of these in your book. Number one, make your bed.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah. I wrote two pages about it in the book because 82% of people who make their bed feel more productive during the day. And it's a very simple task. That's the whole point of the book. It's a toolkit. And some of the tools are going to work for you and they're going to make you happier, and they're going to make you more productive, and they're going to make you more successful. And you can roll your eyes and not make your bed, but try it. Because 82% of people who do, feel more productive.

Bobbi Rebell:
The second one I want to point out, these are like the quick hits, dopamine dressing. I mean, I literally am wearing a pink scrunchie in my hair right now because it makes me happy.

Meaghan Murphy:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Even though no one else can see it. Dopamine dressing, talk about it.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's dressed the way you want to feel. I studied acting and I talk about it like, my clothes as a costume. Right. If I were going on stage playing a doctor, I'm not wearing a Fireman's uniform. So what's the life you want. We always say dress for the job you want. Dress for the life you want. Are you going to a funeral or a party? What does that look like?

Bobbi Rebell:
The pandemic, when so many of us are working from home, actually in a way gives us permission to really dress the way we want. We don't have to dress in the way that other people do because no one else can see you sometimes.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. This one, this is something my mom, who's no longer with us did in the late stages of her life. And so it really hit home for me. And I know it made her happy, is put fresh flowers in your house. I mean, she started doing a flower delivery where every week they would come. She had her fancy vases and she had a rotation going where they would take the old one and bring it back. And then bring another one back each week. So every day she would get them made in her vase. And it was such an important thing in those last years when she was ill.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's major. And that's the thing, it's not like, oh yeah, buying your flowers is nice, or it's frivolous, or... There's so much great research. There's great Harvard research that says, fresh flowers in your house actually have the power to ease anxiety, to boost your mood. So why not do that? And I joke about this. During the pandemic, I took a pair of scissors when you couldn't get flowers anywhere. And it was full lockdown mode. And I walked over the park and I cut some daffodils because I was like, my mood is for (beep). I'm struggling. I'm crying in the shower. You know what's going to make me feel better in this moment? Those daffodils on my kitchen table.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. The last one, this is something my great aunt Mae told me to do, Meaghan. She's no longer with us, but it really helped me. I was going through a divorce and I had to do live updates from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. She would tell me no matter what's going on in your head, physically smile, just force a smile.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yep. It's like when people tell you to stand up straight and then suddenly you roll your shoulders back and down. Like smile right now. Everybody listening, just smile. It changes the way you feel. Facial feedback research suggests that there is absolutely this two-way street between your facial expressions and your emotions. And the second you crack that smile, fake it till you make it. It does send signals to your brain. Like, okay, today's not so bad.

Bobbi Rebell:
The crazy thing is, it works. And I say that to my son all the time when he gets frustrated because he's been doing a ton of remote learning. And I don't know if learning should really be in that phrase actually, having been,

Meaghan Murphy:
I hear you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Doing this for over a year. But it's a little bit frustrating for kids. And I think that can really have a really great effect on them as well. All right. I want to do one last money tip, which is just coming from you as a mom. You are still into the coupons.

 
 

Meaghan Murphy:
I really am a coupon queen. I miss actually cutting them out of the Sunday circular and going to the shop, right, with my coupons. Ed, my favorite cashier, he's like, where's all your coupons? I don' have the physical paper coupons anymore. Because now everything is an app. But things like RetailMeNot, my grocery store app where I can just scan it and get that bonus. I love saving money so that I could spend it on things I actually might want. I don't need to spend an extra 59 cents on bananas. I would rather put my phone number or my store code and save 30 cents. Because that 30 cents adds up. Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it really does. And that could get you to the fresh flowers that you want. So absolutely. And the truth is, even though there's probably a satisfaction and I remember my mother sitting at the table cutting her coupons, getting ready to go to the store with her box. She had a box and then she would organize which ones she was then going to use that day. And she was aware of the double coupons and the triple coupon days.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
The truth is that even though that tangible experience is gone for most of us, there is still that thrill of seeing the number go down when things are being rung up.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my God. It's so good. Even when I use my Target card and it's like 5% back, and then I get the bill under 200 bucks, I'm like, yes.

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Meaghan Murphy:
I got excited about this santa cake and was literally like, oh my God, everyone look at this. And so everyone in line bought one.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Time to smile my grownup friends. Money may not buy you happiness, but happiness can get you very far when it comes to making money. This week's guest literally leverages her happiness into success. You can't help but love this woman the minute you meet her, even if it is virtual. Meaghan Murphy is the editor in chief of Women's Day, which is the number one selling magazine on news stands. And one of the hosts of the Off the Gram podcast. She is also the author of the new book, Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
If she sounds familiar that's because you see you're on all the morning shows. Plus all those great shows like Live with Kelly & Ryan. She is a home hack master, a lifestyle and health expert. Oh. And she works out like a pro because yes, one more thing. She is a certified trainer. She also has lots of children and a husband and so much going on. But we got her here on the podcast to talk to us about how to put yay into our life. And of course, some incredible money tips. Here is Meaghan Murphy. Meaghan Murphy, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. I love that you're saying yay. That's like your anthem as the author of Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay. A lot of people will look at this book and they'll say like, oh, that's not me. I'm not wired that way. She's so chipper. She just walks around saying, yay. By the way, people can't see you, but you have lightning bolts on your clothing. But honestly, if somebody met you earlier in life, that's not who you were. Give us some context for this because you weren't always the yay person.

Meaghan Murphy:
After some tragic teen years, I did write a very powerful essay that earned me a scholarship and a national TV spot, which ultimately led to an internship at YM Magazine and ultimately springboarded a magazine career. And so in my 20s, when I was working at Cosmopolitan Magazine, I was assigned by my boss to write a story called the seven secrets of happiness. And I completely rolled my eyes because I'm like, who wants to read this crap? But I was the senior editor at Cosmopolitan and this was my assignment when I started to delve into the research and I started to look at the field of positive psychology. And I looked at the work of Martin Seligman who sort of the godfather of positive psychology. And it was the first time that I sort of had this epiphany that happiness wasn't this like bumper sticker, static (beep) thing that you either were or weren't, but it was actually an active state of being, and there were things you can do.

Meaghan Murphy:
There were choices you could make on a daily basis to move the happiness needle. And maybe it might be better and feel better and to live that way. And so I started to dabble in optimism. I started to dabble in living differently. And that's really when the seeds of a fully charged life were planted. And the beautiful thing about prioritizing positivity and sort of actively choosing happiness is that it really started to build and spiral till it becomes easier to do. And it becomes, comes the default, right? And you don't have to work so hard at it. So today, I mean, my friends joke, I'm like a fricking rainbow unicorn. But that's years and years of practice later and kind of rewiring my brain for optimism and joy.

Bobbi Rebell:
That optimism and joy, even though you're not even conscious about it, does translate into so much success in things that are connected to money. So for example, you talk about in the book that you were online at an ice cream store and you were so enthusiastic about a santa cake that you basically became the de facto salesperson for this little ice cream store that was selling ice cream cakes, and you started selling santa cakes for them.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm an evangelist for things I love. If I get excited about something I want everyone else to get excited about. So I probably should have some type of sales career because I would crush it. I got excited about this santa cake and was literally like, oh my God, everyone look at this. And so everyone in line bought one.

Bobbi Rebell:
For any doubters who don't see the connection between happiness, and a positive attitude, and success like, being really good at selling. There it is. There is a connection. Even though it comes so naturally to you Meaghan, that you don't see it. There is a huge connection. Let's get into some of the tips. So the first one that I want to talk about is how to deal with toxic bosses or colleagues?

Meaghan Murphy:
Avoid them as much as possible. Give and requests only much information as needed as to do your job. Keep things professional. Don't get sucked into that. I also say, ignore the bait and bite your tongue instead. I love Terri Cole. She has a new book coming out too called Boundary Boss, but she calls it being unprovokable. And I find being unprovokable and using that word as sort of a mantra, I'm unprovokable, I find it very empowering. So no matter what somebody spews at me, how somebody is trying to drag me down, I just don't fall for the bait. I bite my tongue and I smile and I don't fall for it. And I find it's very gratifying, right, to be unprovokable. I highly recommend that. I also say, always kill them with kindness. I'm always going to be kind. I'm always going to be generous.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm always going to be helpful. And even if there's a little piece of me that dies in the process, I am absolutely going to kill them with kindness. And I find that the haters often come around. And one of my favorite, like sort of Instagram bumper stickers is hustle until the haters ask, if you're hiring. This has happened to me quite often, where I've stayed above the fray. I haven't given them a lot of my brain space, or my energy, or my focus. I've sort of created this force field of positivity against that toxic energy. And eventually they soften up and they suddenly want to be my friend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And the next one actually ties into this very well. It's something you learned from Shonda Rhimes when you edited one of her interviews.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm obsessed with Shonda. I was the executive editor at Good Housekeeping at the time. And she was like, always have hard conversations ASAP. Don't wait for a good time. Right? We angst about when we're going to have this conversation, because we got to wait for the right time. We've got wait for that right moment. Well, guess what? That right moment never actually happens. And you've wasted energy and bandwidth angsting about when it's going to happen. Do it ASAP. Just have the hard conversation. And I've done that where like, I can feel my palms sweating. I can feel my voice shaking. I'm getting the sweats, but I am absolutely going to pick up the phone or walk into the office and have that really, really difficult conversation without hesitation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So easy to say, so hard to do. But I'm going to work on that. I know I've had a really hard time with that myself. You also say something that a lot of people have said the opposite. So I think our listeners are going to really benefit from hearing about this. You say respond to every email.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's super counterintuitive, right? Because doesn't that seem like a time suck? And I guess I should make the caveat, every email that the person... Like so if it's spam, they've spelled your name wrong, gotten the name of your publication wrong, that can be a delete. But if someone has taken the time to engage with you. If a publicist reaches out to me and say, oh, Meaghan, looks like you had a great time in St. Thomas from your Instagram. I've got this great pitch. I think it could be a fit for this section. They deserve a response. That's a kindness, that's a professional courtesy. And in so many instances where I've responded and said, you know what? This is not a fit for me. I'm going to keep it top of mind. Or I've exchanged some kind of a kindness of like that was a great pitch.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's not right for me. Maybe it's right for so-and-so over here. Did you think about that? I have benefited from those interactions in so many crazy ways where they're like, oh, you know what? You should know this person, or what about this or... Good things come to you when you're a good human being. It's this kindness networking boomerang. And I can't tell you how good it feels to walk through a trade show and be like, oh, that's Meaghan Murphy. She's the best. She always responds to email. She's so courteous and polite. It's a kindness that I will extend to anyone who makes a concerted effort to contact me.

Bobbi Rebell:
And these are people that you're basically saying no to, which is amazing.

Meaghan Murphy:
I kind of think of the world as like a Lite Brite board. Do you remember Lite Brite boards when you were a kid?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Meaghan Murphy:
And the more of those colorful pegs you put into the board, the clearer the picture gets, and eventually you have this bright, vibrant, interesting picture. To me I sort of look like people and connections and ideas as those pegs, those little lights. And the more I put in the board, the clearer the picture becomes, the more it lights up. And so I am never worried that if I introduce you to so-and-so, then somehow there's less work for me. Or if I connect to these two people, I'm going to be boxed out. Absolutely not. I assume that we all have our own secret sauce. We all shine in our own way. And my shine doesn't diminish yours and your shine doesn't diminish mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important. Because that's something that I have been so relieved about as I've embarked on my own journey, independent from corporate life. I was afraid that people wouldn't want to help me, but it's been just the opposite. I feel like so many people have been so kind and opened up doors. And hopefully I do just as much for other people. Because if you are secure in what you're doing and what you bring to the table, no one else is you. So there's nothing to fear.

Meaghan Murphy:
And here's the deal though. That's hard earned. I'm a 45 year old mother of three. Who's been at this for 25 years. Did I feel that way in my 20s? Probably not so much. Right. I was probably more protective of my ideas, and my successes, and my connections back in the day. I've learned my lesson. Right? I understand that we lift each other up and all the cliches, real queens fix each other's crowns. I do better when I'm lifting others up. And I find it always pays me back in unexpected ways. And so yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. Absolutely. Okay. I want to whip through a few quick hit, simple things that people can do. And these are examples. There are tons of these in your book. Number one, make your bed.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah. I wrote two pages about it in the book because 82% of people who make their bed feel more productive during the day. And it's a very simple task. That's the whole point of the book. It's a toolkit. And some of the tools are going to work for you and they're going to make you happier, and they're going to make you more productive, and they're going to make you more successful. And you can roll your eyes and not make your bed, but try it. Because 82% of people who do, feel more productive.

Bobbi Rebell:
The second one I want to point out, these are like the quick hits, dopamine dressing. I mean, I literally am wearing a pink scrunchie in my hair right now because it makes me happy.

Meaghan Murphy:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Even though no one else can see it. Dopamine dressing, talk about it.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's dressed the way you want to feel. I studied acting and I talk about it like, my clothes as a costume. Right. If I were going on stage playing a doctor, I'm not wearing a Fireman's uniform. So what's the life you want. We always say dress for the job you want. Dress for the life you want. Are you going to a funeral or a party? What does that look like?

Bobbi Rebell:
The pandemic, when so many of us are working from home, actually in a way gives us permission to really dress the way we want. We don't have to dress in the way that other people do because no one else can see you sometimes.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. This one, this is something my mom, who's no longer with us did in the late stages of her life. And so it really hit home for me. And I know it made her happy, is put fresh flowers in your house. I mean, she started doing a flower delivery where every week they would come. She had her fancy vases and she had a rotation going where they would take the old one and bring it back. And then bring another one back each week. So every day she would get them made in her vase. And it was such an important thing in those last years when she was ill.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's major. And that's the thing, it's not like, oh yeah, buying your flowers is nice, or it's frivolous, or... There's so much great research. There's great Harvard research that says, fresh flowers in your house actually have the power to ease anxiety, to boost your mood. So why not do that? And I joke about this. During the pandemic, I took a pair of scissors when you couldn't get flowers anywhere. And it was full lockdown mode. And I walked over the park and I cut some daffodils because I was like, my mood is for (beep). I'm struggling. I'm crying in the shower. You know what's going to make me feel better in this moment? Those daffodils on my kitchen table.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. The last one, this is something my great aunt Mae told me to do, Meaghan. She's no longer with us, but it really helped me. I was going through a divorce and I had to do live updates from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. She would tell me no matter what's going on in your head, physically smile, just force a smile.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yep. It's like when people tell you to stand up straight and then suddenly you roll your shoulders back and down. Like smile right now. Everybody listening, just smile. It changes the way you feel. Facial feedback research suggests that there is absolutely this two-way street between your facial expressions and your emotions. And the second you crack that smile, fake it till you make it. It does send signals to your brain. Like, okay, today's not so bad.

Bobbi Rebell:
The crazy thing is, it works. And I say that to my son all the time when he gets frustrated because he's been doing a ton of remote learning. And I don't know if learning should really be in that phrase actually, having been,

Meaghan Murphy:
I hear you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Doing this for over a year. But it's a little bit frustrating for kids. And I think that can really have a really great effect on them as well. All right. I want to do one last money tip, which is just coming from you as a mom. You are still into the coupons.

Meaghan Murphy:
I really am a coupon queen. I miss actually cutting them out of the Sunday circular and going to the shop, right, with my coupons. Ed, my favorite cashier, he's like, where's all your coupons? I don' have the physical paper coupons anymore. Because now everything is an app. But things like RetailMeNot, my grocery store app where I can just scan it and get that bonus. I love saving money so that I could spend it on things I actually might want. I don't need to spend an extra 59 cents on bananas. I would rather put my phone number or my store code and save 30 cents. Because that 30 cents adds up. Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it really does. And that could get you to the fresh flowers that you want. So absolutely. And the truth is, even though there's probably a satisfaction and I remember my mother sitting at the table cutting her coupons, getting ready to go to the store with her box. She had a box and then she would organize which ones she was then going to use that day. And she was aware of the double coupons and the triple coupon days.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
The truth is that even though that tangible experience is gone for most of us, there is still that thrill of seeing the number go down when things are being rung up.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my God. It's so good. Even when I use my Target card and it's like 5% back, and then I get the bill under 200 bucks, I'm like, yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about where people can reach you and your podcast and all your other projects.

Meaghan Murphy:
Sure. So I am on Instagram. I'm pretty busy. Meghan B Murphy, M-E-A-G-H-A-N, B Murphy. I have a podcast called Off the Gram with a bunch of wellness influencers. That's wherever podcasts are not sold, but listened to, I guess. And I'm also the editor in chief of Woman's Day Magazine. So it's a top selling magazine on newsstands. I think we have 18 million readers. So that's a pretty fun thing to pick up too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. That's kind of huge. But yeah, most people would lead with that one, but you have so much going on. I can't thank you enough for stopping by. This is such a gift to our listeners. So thank you so much, Meaghan.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my gosh. I so enjoyed you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm grateful.

Bobbi Rebell:
Good stuff, right? She was great. Let's go over some of the tips that we learned from Meaghan. First, be an evangelist for things you love. They will literally sell themselves. If you have a toxic boss at work, do not fall for the bait. Be generous with introductions. Don't worry that there will be less for you. Things work out for those who give proactively and generously. And of course, yay for coupons.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So now I have a question for all of you. What are you happy about these days? What are you celebrating? I am looking forward to a lot of in-person get togethers as things open up. And I'm always looking for the perfect gift, which is one reason I created grownupgear.com. So if you haven't checked it out yet, please take a look. We have the perfect gift for all of those adulting moments that we celebrate from graduations to engagements, bridal showers, new homes, birthdays, all the good things.

Bobbi Rebell:
As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to Grownup Gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. Can also think of it as financial independence day if that motivates you. There are two ways to enter, take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media and tag me @bobbirebell1. That's on Instagram, I should say. And then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review on the Money Tips for Financial Grownups Podcast on Apple podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. Grownup Gear is what I like to call a micro business and we really do need and appreciate all of your support. So please check it out and tell your friends. And thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note. I hope you guys smiled a lot listening to this episode. I loved interviewing Meaghan. She's the best. So big thanks to Meaghan Murphy. Don't forget to check out her book for cheering us all on and yay for all of you financial grownups. Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram. And Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Money Lessons for Grownups from the Netflix series "The Squid Game”

The Squid Game is an intense look at the desperate measures people will take to get out of debt. While the story is fiction, the lessons we can take away about class divide, the reckless choices made when in debt, and the way money can reveal someone’s true character, are hitting home with so many of us.  ** spoiler alert**

 
Squid Game Instagram (1).png

Money Lessons for Grownups from the Netflix series "The Squid Game”

  • You can’t judge people‘s wealth and success based on appearances.

  • Money makes us do illogical, and often illegal things.

  • Manage the pressure otherwise it will consume you.

  • Betrayal comes from the people you trust the most.

  • Strength is not always stronger.

  • Wealthy people can abuse the vulnerability of people who have financial problems.

 

Follow Neil!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.



Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, Ts and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts.

Bobbi Rebell:
They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. You know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup and you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownups, welcome back. We are going to do something very special this week, starting with having back my number one, most favorite ever co-host, Mr. Neil Kaufman, aka, my husband. Welcome back, Neil.

Neil Kaufman:
Back on popular demand and for those of you that sent me fan letters, thank you. I appreciate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, Neil is poised to become a regular co-host on this show. And speaking of regular, a lot of the regular listeners do know that you were featured in our summer watch series where we talked about money related streaming shows and the lessons from them. Well, as of now, we're not going to do a whole series for fall, but there is a show that everyone, including Mr. Neil Kaufman, I should say, everyone is talking about that has some pretty intense money lessons.

Bobbi Rebell:
That show is the Netflix series, the Squid Game. Neil and I have been watching the series. We've already had some pretty intense discussions about it and so of course, I recruited him to come back to the podcast. So Neil, welcome.

Neil Kaufman:
Thank you. We're here to talk about Squid Game, which for those of you that have been I guess living under a rock and don't know about the Squid Game or haven't seen it yet, because it's the most popular show in lots of countries, it's a nine episode series about the lives of 456 people, all who need money.

Neil Kaufman:
They need it for lots of different reasons. They come from all walks of life. Some of drowning in debt, desperate for not being able to pay off their debt. Some people are thugs. Some people are white collar. Some people are just unlucky. But what they all have in common is they need money and they are willing to participate, willingly, they want to participate in this game to try and survive.

Neil Kaufman:
And they've got to play six Korean children's games where if you're the winner you're going to get a large sum of money, $46 billion Won, which is $38 million U.S. dollars. It's a high stakes game.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a lot of money. Okay. So I want to make sure everybody knows that we have watched all of the episodes and we are not going to be able to remember what to say and what not to say so there will be spoilers. So this is your cue, if we've interested you in watching the Squid Game and you haven't watched it yet, pause. Go watch it. It's nine episodes.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for most people they could binge it in a day or two. For me, because I fall asleep during everything, it took a little bit longer but Neil was patient. Go watch the Squid Game and then come back right here. This is where the spoilers are going to start. Starting with the fact that the main character is presented as sympathetic but a lot of eye rolls.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, he's massively in debt. He gambles away money that his mom ... By the way, he's 40 something and living with his mom, speaking of not being a financial grownup, of course. He's asking her for more money to buy his daughter a birthday present. He gambles it.

Bobbi Rebell:
All kinds of things happen but just the characters, it's not like they're all that sympathetic. A lot of them are basically making big money mistakes on their own and trying to find get rich quick schemes to begin with. Right, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
He's a likable guy but he's a schlump. It's just the guy, he does everything wrong. He's divorced. He's a gambler. I mean, he's got all the classic tell-tale signs of just being a not responsible person, both financially and emotionally. I mean, he doesn't even maintain a decent relationship with his daughter. I mean, or his mother.

Neil Kaufman:
Yes, he lives with his mom and we've heard that story all too often but he betrayed his mom. He canceled the insurance, her health insurance, which no shock there, an aging woman, she needed the insurance.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's another big spoiler. It comes up later. The other spoiler is that he wins money gambling. Okay, so now in theory you would think he would use this money that's he's gambled ... he wins on this horse betting, which is another thing that comes up. They're betting on horses. Is it different to bet on horses than humans? Think about that, everyone that's seen the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
But, he wins a huge amount of money and instead of using it to pay off his debt he starts gambling away with it again. He doesn't pay off the debt that owes. He gives a big tip to the person in the window and he wants to go shopping and buy extravagant things for his daughter that he's promising her all this stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Even when he gets her a present he does it through a gambling game, a children's game where he picks a present, which later on ... We don't have to spoil this but let's just say it's not a child appropriate gift that he ends up getting her and it's really just the ultimate symbol that this guy just can do no right and he's his own worst enemy really.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, Neil, we've set up the premise, we've got this guy, fast forward a little bit. He runs into someone who's effectively a salesman who convinces him to go into this game and he meets a van, gets gassed so he doesn't know where he's going. And he ends up in a dorm with 455 other people who are competing in this contest and basically they say that anyone that is not eliminated at the end of six children's games will win a huge prize of money. As you mentioned, the equivalent of $38 million. But there's more to it.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah. So they're playing these games but they don't realize it until they get into the first game, what it's really all about. So the idea is some people win the game, some people lose the game. If you lose, by the rules that are put in place, you are effectively eliminated from the game. And elimination means death.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. And note, for the very first game they don't know that. They just know you're eliminated and they assume, I think understandably, that they would just go home. It becomes clear very quickly and it's a very gory scene that being eliminated is death.

Bobbi Rebell:
So after that, through a little TMI, we won't get into it. The players do choose to go home. They end the game and they play one game and by going home they have forfeited the opportunity to win the money and they go back to their dreary lives. And we talked about the main character but many of the other characters have very unfortunate situations with money.

Bobbi Rebell:
They're all desperate for money, to either save face. There's an immigrant theme here, to get their relatives out of North Korea, into Korea, to feed their families. To pay off gambling debts. All kinds of different reasons why people need the money. As Neil mentioned, white collar crime and so on.

Bobbi Rebell:
They go back to their lives. What's shocking to me is that of the people that go back to their lives and have the opportunity to not die in pursuit of this money, 87% of them choose voluntarily to participate in a life or death game where it's pretty logical that most of the people are not going home with the millions of dollars.

Neil Kaufman:
I think it really shows the desperation. So they went into the game originally knowing or not really knowing that much about it but after they realize that it was a fight to the death and they would actually potentially sacrifice their life and they go back home.

Neil Kaufman:
They willingly reenter it a second time, knowing what the consequences of their actions are. It may cost them everything but they're so desperate they'll still go ahead and play the game. 87% of them come back, which is really ... it just ... it boggles the mind.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is shocking and it also is shocking how the characters evolve through this process because they're in this bubble and they're not in contact with the real world any more. They're just in this world where they're surrounded by their ... in some cases they try to form teams and this and that but who's on your team can be very confusing. And it's confusing to know who to trust. And that's something that also goes to the theme of money, right, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
It's really interesting. I'll tell you, choosing who's on your team, who's not on your team, I mean, I thought there was a part of the show where they were choosing teams for tug-of-war and nobody, nobody wanted to choose either the women or the old man to be on their team.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, but spoiler, we didn't know it was tug-of-war when they were choosing. They did not know what the game was. There was a presumption that strength mattered.

Neil Kaufman:
There was. There was a presumption.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is also a real world perception very often that the strong men were the most desirable teammates. That was the perception, which is often the perception in real life too.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. And shock, maybe not shock, the team with the three women and the one old man, won the tug-of-war game against the men's ... the all men's team. Not so much for any other reason than it was the wisdom of the old man. He had life experience. He had some knowledge that he brought to the table.

Neil Kaufman:
And there was also the women in terms of how they all worked together as one cohesive team. So it was the mind that won over the power of many on the other side. It was a David and Goliath story and I love that but the point is, you've got to think broadly, have a different perspective. It's not always the obvious answer that wins.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing that's also interesting is that there might be a perception that everyone in this dorm, everyone playing this game was poor, maybe because they were born that way or just things beyond their control. But one of the characters that you found most interesting was character 218.

Bobbi Rebell:
He is someone that was the pride and joy of his neighborhood. We see scenes of his mother bragging about how successful he is. The main character knew him as a child and he was the big success of the neighborhood. He was working in finance but in fact, he had lost his investor's money and he still was in the outside world portraying this veneer of huge success. Nobody knew that he had had this huge financial ruin.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's something that really resonated because very often people appear to have so much money and so much success in life but underneath there's nothing and sometimes there's less than nothing. And it's not always clear but there's a lot of reason to believe that this very wealthy appearing guy had maybe committed some crimes and really betrayed his investors. He was a bad guy.

Neil Kaufman:
I hate that guy. I mean, I got to tell you, even the way it wrapped up with him in the end and I'll get to that in a second. But I think it speaks to, I mean this guy had a pedigree education. He had the pedigree job. I think the lesson in that is don't judge people's wealth or success based on appearance only.

Neil Kaufman:
I guess it almost goes to what we're talking about these days around mental health issues. People that you think are okay, maybe they're not okay. Maybe they're not doing great. It's like that Instagram moment. It looks great from the outside in but the inside out is just terrible.

Neil Kaufman:
I think the life lesson here is the person who said that it's better to look good than to feel good, that person is wrong. The person that said clothes makes the man. That guy is also wrong. It's mental health. It's inner beauty. It's health. It's relationships that matter, not what your neighbors think, not what the valet who parks your car thinks or the stranger who sees on the street wearing whatever you're wearing.

Neil Kaufman:
You need to define a level of success by, I guess I want to say pay it forward. By the good words and things that you do and the impact that you make on others. It's those things that matter.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. This show also makes some big picture statements about the growing gap between the uber wealthy and the poorer people in society and the things that the wealthy do. About two-thirds through the show, the series, we learn that this is a game that wealthy people are staging for their own amusement and it's compared by many people to things like Battle Royale and the Hunger Games.

Bobbi Rebell:
You have a lot to say about this. I mean, they come in, it's wealthy people really abusing the lower classes here who have financial problems instead of helping them. It's very cynical.

Neil Kaufman:
It's interesting. So wealthy people can abuse the vulnerable who have financial problems. No shocker there. I guess it's the theme for the decade. People hurting people who are already hurting, instead of lifting those people up in reality as opposed to the appearance of reality.

Neil Kaufman:
In the end what I liked was I think the last lesson of the show was that humanity wins. It's best to be your best. It's the best lesson so far in the show, which is sometimes people in power, people who seem to be doing good are not always doing good.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's also interesting though, it makes a little ... well, a big statement. The main character early in the show is betting on horses. Later in the show the wealthy VIPs are betting on the contestants in this game. Is it saying maybe that are the wealthy and the poor doing the same human behavior? Is it just our human instinct to do this kind of cruel game?

Bobbi Rebell:
Obviously, the horses, I sure hope are alive afterwards, unlike the people but they're setting them up similar because the VIPs are very much gambling on the humans in this game. They are making bets and they're enjoying it and it seems like there's some parallels that the filmmaker or the series maker is trying to make there.

Neil Kaufman:
They're talking about objectification of both men, of women. They're talking about the abuse of power. I mean, it's a real statement that they're making here in terms of who's good, who's bad and sometimes who's good and who's bad is just a matter of perception.

Neil Kaufman:
So to your point, people betting on humans versus people betting on horses, is there a differentiation between them? I don't know but there's so many lessons in this story. I don't even know where ... there's so much. I read so much online about it and what I thought was interesting is how characters changed in the story too.

Neil Kaufman:
Like 67, I forget what her name is. I'm just going to refer to the characters by their numbers. It's easier. But 67, she started off as a hard character. She became a soft character in the end. It gives me pause to think about how people fall into two categories sometimes.

Neil Kaufman:
When people are put to pressure some people are like bits of carbon. You know what I mean by that? You put enough pressure on somebody and some people, like a bit of carbon, you put enough pressure on them and they turn into a diamond. They really shine like 67. She was playing marbles and her opponent gave up her life for her, which I thought was a selfless act.

Neil Kaufman:
It was amazing. She literally sacrificed her and not only was that an amazing act of selflessness but it rubbed off on 67. That's what I'm saying with that whole pay it forward thing. She became a better person for it and she did pay it forward, by the way, because in the middle of the night when she was hurting and there was an opportunity for 456 to kill 218 in his sleep, she paid it forward and she course corrected 456.

Neil Kaufman:
She brought him back on the tracks. She gave him ethics, gave him values again, which I thought was amazing as opposed to the character 218. So my whole other viewpoint is some people are like bits of carbon that you can turn into diamonds and some people fracture and crack under pressure.

Neil Kaufman:
This guy, 218, I was really disappointed in this guy. He manipulated Ali, number 199, played upon his naivete, tricking him into losing his life. He also betrayed all of the players in the beginning when he basically he knew the game, the honeycomb game, and he wouldn't share his knowledge with anybody else. He just looked out for himself only and I get it.

Neil Kaufman:
It's a game to the death but it was to the point where this person fractured so much from the pressure that not only did he betray all of his friends and then betray Ali and then he betrayed everybody at some point in the games. And he even slit 67's neck in the sleep. She was already dying and he killed her. What's the point in that?

Neil Kaufman:
In the end, his self-sacrifice, I got to tell you, it left me hollow inside. Hollow gesture from a dying man and he didn't even do it to give to 456 to win. He did it to give because he wanted the money for his own purpose, which was to share it with his family. So I get it but I'm telling you, it's a whole microscope of life on the two different types of people there, those that are good and those that are evil.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think the lasting image, because we need to wrap up in a minute. The lasting image for me is the final character, which is throughout the show, the series, they have this giant piggy bank hanging above the dorm that every time someone else dies the remaining players see more money coming in to this giant glass piggy bank above them.

Bobbi Rebell:
So it's like they're being driven by this character of this piggy bank that they can never stop thinking about it and how that will solve their problems, make their life better but in the end, as we know, it doesn't. It really doesn't and that's, I guess, the final spoiler, really. That the money doesn't change anything for the winner.

Neil Kaufman:
I got to tell you, there was one theme in there that really resonated with me on a personal level because I have seen this person in every company I've ever worked with. Betrayal doesn't come from people more often than it comes from people that you trust most. Sometimes your friends are really frenemies. I love that word, frenemy because you got to find out who your frenemies are sometimes.

Neil Kaufman:
Fake friends like Deok-su, number 101 and Han Mi, number 212. They were friends. They were friends but when 101 left 212 scorned by not picking her for ... we talked about the tug-of-war, didn't pick her. He didn't realize that 212 would ultimately be the death of him. So he burned bridges with her and she wound up throwing him off the bridge, which is kind of funny. It took him to his death.

Neil Kaufman:
So my lesson out of that was the kindness you show to others will always find a way of coming back to you or maybe karma is going to sting you for being ruthless in the end and that's what happened to 101.

Bobbi Rebell:
So on point, Neil. You're brilliant, what can I say. All right. Final thoughts.

Neil Kaufman:
I'm thinking that there's going to be a second season, the way they left it at the end there. He didn't get on the plane, 456 did not get on the plane to visit his daughter. He let me down again. He turned around and I think it's a hat tip to a potential season two.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think so too. I mean, the rumor is and we're just laying down all these spoilers here but the rumor is that a season two might focus more on the VIPs and the police and the people behind the game and what's going on behind the scenes because they show us a little bit but I definitely want to know more about how this came about and what's going on.

Bobbi Rebell:
And we've got the brother, the police officer and that whole thing. So I would love to hear more about that and I'd love to see more about what ... I'm going to research more about what's been going on in terms of class divide in South Korea. I think that's really interesting and something we can talk about in our own country as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
So final, final words, Neil.

Neil Kaufman:
Tune into the podcast. Listen on Spotify. Tell us what you liked, what you didn't like. I'd love to hear from you.

Bobbi Rebell:
We love that. All right. And everyone, you can follow me and support the show on Instagram @bobbirebell1, on Twitter @bobbirebell. Let us know what you thought about it. Let us know if you want to hear more from Neil and more of our money related content reviews. I don't know what we want to call it, a synopsis, whatever. But be in touch and thank you for being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips For Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcast. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

Neil Kaufman:
(Singing)

Best Books for Financial Grownups Fall 2021

The winners are in! Fall is a great time to sink into a good book and we have the ultimate list including Machiavelli for Women by Stacey Vanek Smith,The Long Game by Dorie Clark, A Year of Self Care Journal by Allison Task, Wallet Activism by Tanya Hester and Estate Planning 101 by Amy Blacklock and Vicki Cook. 


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Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.



Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. I hope everyone is enjoying the start to fall, hopefully, getting out there a little bit, seeing friends and family in person. Maybe you're going back to the office, maybe, if you're a parent, just maybe your kids are back to school in person. And most importantly, I hope everyone out there is healthy. So important. And we have such an appreciation for that these days, of course. There's a lot going on, and that makes it even more important to take a break and maybe take the time to read a book. I always love fall for reading because it's such a cozy season. And I hope there's always a little bit of us that wants to just take a break, and hit pause, and sink into a really good book.

Bobbi Rebell:
I have selected five that I think are well worth investing your time. So let's get right into it. The first two books I was really drawn to kind of for similar reasons, even though they're very different books, they both offer advice that goes against what we usually hear. And it may take some time to process the advice and the strategies that you will read in these books because they're really counterintuitive, but that's what makes them so compelling. And here's the thing, they work.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So let me reveal the first pick. The first pick is Machiavelli for Women. Now, this is sort of the biggest, most ambitious book on the list in terms of reading it. They're all ambitious books, of course. So I recommend starting with it first, and really settling into it for a couple of weeks, and reading it in a place that you can really focus because it deserves your focus, for lack of a better expression for that.

Bobbi Rebell:
So the full title of the book is Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win the Workplace. And I do want to stress that even though clearly by the title, it is aimed at women, everyone who reads this, whatever your gender, will get a lot out of this book. The author, you've probably heard of the author, her name is Stacey Vanek Smith. You've heard of her because she's an incredible journalist and host of The indicator by Planet Money. The book, very high concept. So what Stacey Vanek Smith does is she applies the concepts from Machiavelli's, The Prince, to women and the workplace. The book is incredibly well-researched. You know you can just really tell when the author went the extra mile. Trust me, she went the extra mile.

Bobbi Rebell:
Vanek Smith also took a lot of risks by saying, "Okay, here's the advice you have been given that sounds like the right thing to say, it's the PC thing to do, right? It's the kind of things we all hear like, 'Go, you can be a girl boss. You can hustle your way to success, and it's all going to work. Just go, go, go, go, go girl.'" The thing is, she did the research and there's a lot of documented evidence that a lot of that classic go-girl advice, girl-boss advice, whatever you want to call it, is not working, at least for most people. It's the thing that no one wants to tell you. She will tell you the truth, which is as much as we don't want to admit it, we have a better shot to get what we want if we do certain things that she outlines in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
And in case you're thinking, "Well, things always work for her," Stacey Vanek Smith, I should say, "but not for me," Stacey gets very specific about the things that did not work out for her. And as a fellow journalist, I was in shock, blown away, not only by her honesty, but by the experiences that she had. Because it's one of those, "Oh, I thought it was just me," and, "She's so successful. It must have always been smooth sailing." Well, she totally smashes that myth and she's really vulnerable. I really encourage everyone to read Machiavelli for Women by Stacey Vanek Smith. And by the way, if you read it, and with all of these books, if you enjoy it, go and write a review as well. Amazon is a great place to write a review. You can also go to Goodreads and probably lots of other sites as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
The second book, also a lot of counterintuitive advice that really works, even though it's kind of not supposed to, it's not what people think you should do, but it is what it is. Book number two is The Long Game: How to Be a Long-Term Thinker in a Short-Term World. It is by Dorie Clark. She's a professor at Duke and Columbia. She's also written a number of other books. She's a very popular speaker. She's got a lot going on at LinkedIn with a big series there. So this one, I read it by the pool in August. And I tell you that because this is a book that is a real stress reliever. It takes the pressure off that hustle mentality. So it is the closest to a beach read you can get in that sense from a career book, but it's definitely, obviously not a beach read and I highly recommend it for fall. In fact, it just came out in the fall a couple of weeks ago.

Bobbi Rebell:
Author Dorie Clark, just like Stacey Vanek Smith, gets very candid about her own failures. I mean, they're just flat-out failures. Sometimes there's no like, "Oh, but then the next year, they hired her and she made bazillions of dollars." No. Some of the failures that she talks about are just that. It shows us that even people that we perceive as being at the top of their field, and they are at the top of their field, I should say, they have their setbacks, even when they are at the top of their fields, as we see it. They may not always see it that way. And also like Smith, Clark offers advice that people just don't like to say out loud. Dorie Clark also has some super easy productivity tips that I've already put to work. They're so easy, makes so much sense. So if you're feeling like there's just too much on your plate, take a moment, hit pause, pick up this book, and just read a chapter at a time. You can definitely take your time and go back and dip into this book back and forth throughout the fall.

Bobbi Rebell:
On the theme of The Long Game, I have tried to do the journaling thing so many times. Every January, I am sent wonderful and beautiful journals by people that write these and maybe want to come on the show, some I've had on the show, and they're awesome. And I love it that it works for so many people. But here's the thing, those blank pages just kill me. The wonderful Allison Task has solved the problem with her book A Year of Self-Care Journal: 52 Weeks to Cultivate Positivity & Joy. So consider this an early holiday present for you, maybe for your friends who need some structure and routine. There are quotes to inspire us and they're not the same old, same old ones. And for someone like me, I just got started and the first week is about laughter. And that sounds like, "Oh yeah, the book's just going to make me laugh." No. It had really good things that we could do to laugh and also just to appreciate how ridiculous things are. So it's kind of weird. It actually works even for skeptics like me.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also as a parent, although frankly, everyone is busy, so let's just say as someone with a lot of stuff to do, it has specific tasks throughout the year. So for example, at one point, Allison tells us like, "This week, this week, for sure, check it off your list, that you're going to make appointments with these three crucial doctors that you have to do yearly check-ins with." So it's really important because we're sometimes so busy caring for other people that we forget to do those kinds of things for ourselves. So don't wait until January 1st to get on track. It's 52 weeks. So the week one can be any week. It doesn't have to be the first week of the year.

Bobbi Rebell:
And yes, I have roped Allison Task into coming back on the podcast soon to talk about A Year of Self-Care Journal. So you can hear more from her as well. It'll be coming up probably in a couple of weeks. She, by the way, Allison, has had quite the journey over COVID, a lot of personal drama that I am going to ask her about because I know she is so good at sharing the experiences that she and her family have so that we can also learn from those real-life examples. And she's just a great role model. So make sure you are subscribed so you can get that episode when it comes out.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We are moving up to book number four. Fall is back to school. So even if you're not officially in school, I do have an assignment for you, my Grownup friends. I want you to get your important paperwork in order. No eye-rolling here. I want everyone, no matter how young, no matter how poor you think you are or how early you think you are on your financial journey, I want you to get your estate planning in order. And estate planning is a really unfortunate phrase because the truth is, it's just having your financial act together, and also in this case, kind of your health act together.

Bobbi Rebell:
Because even though we think that estate planning is for really rich people or really old people, the truth is that if you don't have things like advanced care directives in place, which basically means who's in charge of making decisions about your health if you're not able to do it? And who's in charge of your money? Even something as simple as making sure your bills get paid so that all of your financial stuff doesn't come crashing down when you do get better. Someone has to be designated to do that stuff. And so if you don't do that, it's going to be really, really bad. Total chaos. Okay. So the book, the book you guys need to get for this is called Estate Planning 101, a crash course for planning for the unexpected. Estate Planning 101, can't get any easier. The authors are Vicki Cook and Amy Blacklock. Get it stat. Do the things. This lecture is over.

Bobbi Rebell:
Rounding out our list of Grownup books for fall is a book that I have been looking forward to and was able to get an early copy of. It's not actually out yet, but it will be in a couple of weeks. So you guys can already pre-order it, it is called Wallet Activism: How to Use Every Dollar You Spend, Earn and Save as a Force for Change. It is by Tanja Hester. She's been on the podcast before to talk about her previous book about early retirement. That one was called Work Optional.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hester doesn't make us feel bad in this book. If we're being honest, we all probably do things with our money that isn't for social good, not at all. She actually gives us the tools to make changes on our own terms and to really understand the power that we have as consumers. It's called Wallet Activism, and it is really worth reading and supporting, and I hope everyone will get a lot out of it. So pre-order Wallet Activism. And by the time it comes, you'll be done with the other four books and you will be ready to read that book. And also by the way, Tanja will be back on the podcast when the book comes out in early November.

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys check out all of these books the authors either have or soon will be on the podcast. We will link to those episodes in the show notes, and you can get the show notes and full transcripts of all the shows on my website, bobbirebell.com, B-O-B-B-I R-E-B-E-L-L.com. Just go to the podcast tab and you will see it. Super easy. I want to get back to doing more book episodes. So DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 with books that you are reading or books that you're looking forward to reading that you think would be great to share with the Grownup community. And thanks to all of you for your support and for being Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a Financial Grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being Financial Grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

3 Money Tips to Manage Burnout with Career and Life Strategist Elizabeth Koraca

Avoiding burnout is one thing- but what happens when it is happening and you need to find an escape? Career and Life Strategist Elizabeth Koraca shares 3 tips to managing burnout when it is actually happening.

 
Elizabeth Koraca Instagram.png

3 Money Tips To Manage Burnout

  • If you’re feeling overwhelmed, stop and ask yourself what is causing it. Write down what are your biggest pain points.

  • Look at what’s on your plate. Is it overflowing? Chances are if you're feeling overwhelmed you've got too much on your plate.

  • Listen to your body, mind, and emotions. Setting goals, taking action, and scheduling them in a calendar will help you combat overwhelm.

 

Follow Elizabeth!

Follow Bobbi!



Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.



Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Elizabeth Koraca:
So if you're feeling that burnout from social media, like you're on it too much, or you feel like you've had to post too much, just take a step back and think, what is comfortable for me? Is it posting something once a week? Is it going on once a day? Is it just looking at professional posts or focusing on personal? Whatever it is, feels right, create a plan and write it down for yourself.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of "How to Be a Financial Grownup". And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grown up friends. I hope everyone is having a great fall and getting into some kind of a good routine because that is one of the many ways to avoid what we're going to talk about today, which is burnout. And there's a lot talk, by the way, about how to avoid burnout and so many great tips that are already out there. But here's the thing. What do you do if you were already in the burnout phase and you don't know how to even get out of it? This has been happening to me. So as some of you know, this summer, I sort of blocked everything out to finish up my next book, which will be out next spring. All good. People were very understanding. I told everyone get in touch. Early fall, I'm going to have tons of time. In fact, I don't even know what I'm going to do with myself. I'm going to have so much time and I can't wait to hang out with you and to do these work related things, and it's going to be great.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you can guess what happened. The minute I handed in that book, everything came crashing down. And of course, these are good problems to have because I want to see my friends and I want to take advantage of these great work opportunities, except it all came at me at once and I really wasn't ready. It just was kind of like going from zero to 60 overnight. And I had total overwhelm and very quickly I found myself burned out, especially because, as many of you probably have experienced during this pandemic, we just aren't doing as much. So when you suddenly are in a position where you're being invited to different social events that you want to go to and different work things and just plans to see friends and do different things, it's just so much and I don't know how we did it before.

Bobbi Rebell:
All this to say, I reached out to my friend, career and life coach, Elizabeth Koraca. She had some amazing ideas for me, and this is stuff, honestly, I usually roll my eyes at. But she actually had specific things that we can do. And by the way, I should mention part of the reason that we were we're talking is because she has a new podcast called The Speaking Up podcast, which we will talk about in our interview. Elizabeth, as some of you know, and I used to work together at Reuters, we were both TV anchors. And since leaving, she has become a leader in her field in life and career coaching. You should definitely check out the Speaking Up podcast. But first, I want you to listen to my interview with Elizabeth Koraca. Here she is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Elizabeth Koraca, you are a financial grownup. Welcome back to the podcast.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Oh, I'm so thrilled to be here, Bobbi. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Always great to have you on. You are definitely a friend of the podcast. And speaking of podcast, congratulations on your new podcast, The Speaking Up podcast.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Oh, thank you so much. It's something I've wanted to do for so many years and really help empower people to speak up for themselves and ask for what they want. So I'm just excited that it's doing really well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you are rolling out the episodes. I know it's already a top ranked one, so everyone should definitely check out The Speaking Up podcast. We're going to talk about that more in a few minutes. But first, first of all, well, I have to convince we're very good friends. I asked you to come back on the podcast because of something that came up in our own private conversations that I really thought would be something of value for the grown up community, and that is my burnout. There's so many people out there with advice on how to of wait burnout, and that is wonderful and great. However, when you are in burnout, there's a lot less advice, but you have some great strategies. And so thank you for bringing them to us.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Can't wait. I can't wait to get to it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and this has been something that's been a big topic for your clients, especially that you've been talking about a lot with your clients in the pandemic. Why do you think, before we get to your tips, why has this been so much worse in the pandemic? When in some ways, I feel like we're doing less. So I feel guilty about feeling burned out when there's actually less to do. And yet, I'm stressed out and burned out, my friend.

Elizabeth Koraca:
How you're feeling is completely normal and natural, and I think everyone needs to know that because during the pandemic, we had a lot of extra pressures and we're still in it. We are still in it. It's not over. We're just trying to live as normal as possible. So we've all had stress of getting COVID, loss of loved ones, quarantining, job loss, new jobs, all of a sudden maybe taking care of family, extended family members, children that's at home. You're homeschooling all of a sudden. All kinds of things we never thought we would have to do, we are adding to our plate that might have already been full.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And yes, many of us parents now have kids going back to school, but we're feeling burned out from the last year and a half as stressed out about what happens if they get sent right back home. So much to talk about. Let's get to the tips that you sent over to me that we're going to go over. First of all, if you're feeling overwhelmed, what should we be doing?

Elizabeth Koraca:
Well, you want to stop, look and listen. Okay? If you're feeling that sense of overwhelm, you want to sit with it? Where is it? Is it in your chest? Is it in your gut? What makes you feel overwhelmed? Okay. And then stop yourself and ask, what is causing it? Write down what your biggest pain points are. Is it financial? Is it the kids? Is it external pressures? Are you not getting along with your spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend? You want to really think about all of this and you have to pinpoint what is causing the overwhelm.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And we talked about a lack of control. Sometimes things are happening to us that we never thought about we could not have been prepared about, and yet we have to manage that, and that kind of burns us out.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Exactly. Often, what stresses us, and that's what causes the burnout is the stress, we are focusing on things we cannot control. Okay? We cannot control when the pandemic is going to be over, but we can control other things. So you want to focus on what you can control. The feeling of being in control and in charge will help you to avoid burnout. And when you're in burnout, it will help you get out of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tip number two, look at what is on your plate.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Yes. Is it overflowing? Chances are, if you're overwhelmed, you've got too much on your plate. So what can you do? Who can you delegate to? What can you delete from your calendar? Or at least push it to a later date. Okay? All the time. And this happened to me the other day. I just felt like my calendar was just so packed and I had so much going on and I feel like we're even doing more as we're trying to go back to normal after what we've just experienced in the past year and a half. So think about all these things and then take action. What can I take off my plate?

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's hard because we're so conflicted because I have, for example, friends that I am dying to see, I haven't seen it so long, and at the same time, I'm hesitant because I just don't want that calendar to get so crowded because I'm afraid of even exaggerating the burnout that I'm already feeling. And we've gotten used to having more time to ourselves.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Exactly. And I feel like what you're really saying is, what are my priorities? Yes, I want to see people and I want to see friends I haven't seen in a long time, but maybe thinking about spacing that out and what feels comfortable for you. So many other people are saying, "I'm not used to doing so much." As we start to try to go back to normal, people are used to being at home and spending a lot of time at home. So thinking about slowly going back into it and not jamming the calendar is really going to help you with that feeling of overwhelm, just to dissipate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tip number three, listen to your body, mind and emotions.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Yes, yes and yes. And I touched upon that earlier in our conversations. If you don't know you're in overwhelm or you're feeling burnt out, listen to your body. When you're speaking to a certain person, does that give you anxiety? Does that cause overwhelm. When you're doing a certain project or task, does that feel overwhelming? When just the thought of doing something feels overwhelming, you want to stop and ask yourself, "How can I help myself in this moment? Is it setting a goal around this? Is it taking action? Is it asking for help?" It's so important to ask for help when we're feeling like this and to ask for help so we can avoid feeling like this, because it's really important to remember people are not mind readers. They don't know what you're feeling. Even you've got people that have been together for 20 years, they don't always know what you're thinking and feeling. So you have to tell people what you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's such a good reminder because sometimes we get frustrated because we think people should be able to read our minds, and we have to actually be told by someone like you, "No, they can't read your minds." Believe it or not, no matter how long they've known you, even if they're related to you, they're not mind readers. The other thing we've talked about burnout from, and I experienced this is, I really had a social media burnout. I really enjoy social media. I love posing questions to the grownup community and having people interact and hearing from people.

Bobbi Rebell:
But this summer when I was in the middle of writing, finishing up writing, I should say, my book, which we'll talk about later, it's coming out in the spring, but I was in the middle of this and I just decided to go cold turkey and I really went off Instagram for more than a month. I miss that interaction. But right now, I also just feel a lot of burnout. What's your advice for people that feel like they have social media burnout? Is it to just cut it cold turkey like I did for a while? Or is there a way to sort of balance things?

Elizabeth Koraca:
It's okay to take a break. If you don't want to be on social every day and posting every day, you don't have to. Go at your own pace. So if you're feeling that burnout from social media, like you're on it too much or you feel like you've had to post too much, just take a step back and think what is comfortable for me? Is it posting something once a week? Is it going on once a day? Is it just looking at professional posts or focusing on personal? Whatever it is feels right, create a plan and write it down for yourself because when we don't write it down, it can cause tornado brain. When that stress and everything else is swirling around in your mind, it feels like a tornado. Okay? That's what often overwhelm feels like.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's a new expression for me, tornado brain. Wow.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Yes, and many of us feel tornado brain.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tornado brain. Okay.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm going to use that. I'm going to tell people I have tornado brain. It needs to stop. Anyway, that's all great advice. People can get more great advice. I'm so impressed. You just started a new podcast, but you actually pumped out quite a few episodes. It's now going to go to only twice a week, but there's a bunch of them already out there. It's called The Speaking Up podcast. And it's really, at this point, it's all you. Although, I'm hoping you'll start doing interviews so I can get in there too. Tell us more about The Speaking Up podcast.

Elizabeth Koraca:
Yes. It's a lot of my experience grow up, being very fearful of speaking up for myself, and being afraid of public speaking and fearful, and just being afraid to ask for what I want. And then as you know, of course, as a Reuters television anchor, that all changed when I started my career in television news and I was on air. All of a sudden, I'm thrust into the spotlight and you have to speak up. You have to speak your mind. You need a strategy. You need a career strategy. You need to have a plan. So I share all of these tips and tricks and my top advice in my podcast. And I, of course, Bobbi, I would love to have you on when I start to have guests because right now, it's a solo podcast. But pretty soon, I'll be having people on.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am there anytime you want. Where can people be in touch with you in addition to checking out The Speaking Up podcast wherever they listen to podcasts?

Elizabeth Koraca:
Yes. Wherever they listen to podcasts and on social media. When you have a unique name like Elizabeth Koraca, you often get your own handle. So my handle is @ElizabethKoraca, and that's K-O-R-A-C-A. And my website, of course, it's full of information and advice on me and my career coaching services. So that's ElizabethKoraca.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love it. Thank you so much for joining me and indulging me because I really needed this advice. And like I said, I really hope that our grownup community benefited as well because I know so many people out there are feeling the burnout. Avoiding it is one thing, but sometimes we can't avoid it and we need to just deal with it and manage it, and these are amazing tips. So thank you so much.

Elizabeth Koraca:
So thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me on, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I always feel so much better after talking with Elizabeth. Here are some my big takeaways. First of all, make the effort to actually write down your biggest pain points. I'm usually lazy about this, but I find that when I did it after Elizabeth told me to, it seemed much more manageable just to see the words on the page. Also, be realistic. Is your plate overflowing? Maybe you just have to say no and do less. And you can say, "No," even if you don't have a conflict. You don't have to give an explanation. Sometimes it's better to just say, "I can't do it," and maybe schedule it further out like Elizabeth said. And then finally, listen to your body, your mind and your emotions and get control. Set goals and then this is key for me at least, actually put them in your calendar. And that goes along with the whole idea of writing things down because they just seem less scary and less overwhelming when you write them down rather than just having them all in your head.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the term tornado brain that she used. I hadn't really thought of that, but that's something that I think I have a lot. I hope this helped you. And if you know friends that you think might be feeling this way, please share this episode. I would really love to grow the podcast, which is free to you, but it does cost me to produce. I have a wonderful team and they do get paid. Another way to support the podcast is to write reviews on our Apple podcast or any platform you listen to that has reviews. Please do rate and review. And sometimes, this is so easy, the best way to get the word out is to share a screenshot on social media. It's totally free. It takes just a second, and just tag me if it's on Instagram @BobbiRebell1. Twitter, just @BobbiRebell.

Bobbi Rebell:
And if you do so, that's great because I can then thank you. And it's also, it's just really nice for me to see that you guys are out there and you're listening. It means so much when you send me DMs on Instagram or just notes in whatever format you choose. It just means a lot. It means a lot. I also appreciate my dear friend, career and life coach, and the host of the Speaking Up podcast, Elizabeth Koraca. And she did a great job helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money tips for financial grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and per reduction by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @BobbiRebell1 on in Instagram and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

5 Money Tips to play (and profit) at The Long Game with author Dorie Clark

Dorie Clark shares game-changing tips to upgrade our work and personal lives including a new alternative to the passion vs. money career debate, jet-lag productivity, heartbeat income and working more hours- in less time. 

5 Money Tips To Play And Profit At The Long Game

  • Rethink Multitasking

  • Use Jet lag for productivity

  • Do something interesting

  • Ask- but wait a year first

  • Patience leads to the pay off- but don’t be passive

 

Follow Dorie!

Follow Bobbi!





Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.




Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates, if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Dorie Clark:
Lower the stakes a little bit, because honestly, thinking about what is my passion is the dating equivalent of meeting somebody on OkCupid And then the next day your friends just keep saying, "Well, is he your soulmate? Is he the one?" It's like, "Oh my God, I don't know. Give me some time."

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, Grownup friends. You guys are in for a treat. This week's interview is someone I have been trying to get on the podcast for quite some time. It is Dorie Clark. She is the author of the new book, The Long Game, it's her fourth book actually. If you're not familiar with her, and frankly, even if you are familiar with her, you're going to be so happy to listen to this episode. You're going to get so much out of this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Dorie is a big time public speaker, thought leader, and as I mentioned, an author and so much more. We totally hit it off. She covered some great topics for us, including what we can do if we haven't found our big passion. We all talk about follow your passion, but some of us, it's not so obvious what that passion is, but Dorie has a great solution.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also talked about super easy ways to up our productivity. Yes, you can have more than 24 hours in a day apparently. I'll tell you, some of these things were obvious once Dorie pointed them out, but they really weren't obvious to me beforehand. They're easy things that we can do once we know how to do them from Dorie. You'll see, we were doing it all wrong.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, we're going to talk about what we can learn from the amount of time it takes to learn to do a handstand. It was a great story and it made so much sense. If we're being honest, I, by the way, can not do a handstand and I'm not going to put in the time to do this handstand thing, guys, but the lesson that Dorie is going to give us totally works. This is all going to make sense. I know this was a little bit confusing, but just trust me. Listen to the interview. Here is The Long Game author, Dorie Clark.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Dorie Clark. You're a financial grownup.

Dorie Clark:
Bobbi, thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I'm so glad to finally have you on. I've been a fan of yours since our mutual friend, Danielle Towne, introduced us a few years ago, and at that time started reading your books, Reinventing You, Entrepreneurial You, and you have some other ones in the mix, but most recently, The Long Game: How to Be a Long-Term Thinker in a Short-Term World. You can see all of the tattered pages. Congratulations.

Dorie Clark:
Thank you. It is amazing. It looks like a dog attacked it. I'm glad you were that voracious with it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I read it by the pool, so there was a little bit of suntan lotion and water and all that stuff, but it was truly loved, mainly because I know you as the super successful Dorie Clark, you're such a celebrated thought leader, but you're very vulnerable in this book.

Dorie Clark:
Thank you. Well, one of the things that has been challenging for me over the course of writing books, and this is my fourth one, and it's not necessarily a philosophical or emotional challenge, but it's actually just overcoming training. But I started my career as a journalist, specifically a political journalist, and the thing that you learn above all else is you are not the story. You are not the interesting part of the story, you write about other people. That was the frame that I was coming from. Over the course of writing my four books, I've come to learn that actually, in terms of what connects with readers, what seems to really make an impact, that's exactly wrong. I mean, what we look for in the news I think is very different than what we look for in business or career books.

Dorie Clark:
Over time, the part that people seem to respond to the most strongly was actually hearing some of my own experiences, and so over the years, I've really learned to weave more about what I've done and what I've tried and what I've gone through into the books as a compliment to the narrative and the reporting that I did. I'm really glad that you responded to that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I really did. The book is very relatable and I think a lot of people in our Grownup audience will feel the same way. You have a lot of incredible money and, frankly, life tips in the book. I want to dive right into those. I have five that I've highlighted. The first one is you talk about rethinking multitasking, because multitasking has gotten a lot of pushback in recent years, but you have a different perspective.

Dorie Clark:
Absolutely. It is completely true that perhaps what we think of when it comes to multitasking is bad. That would be the equivalent of like, "Oh, I'm actually pretending do a podcast interview with you, Bobbi, but I'm actually checking my email," and that is not true, by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
You could pull it off.

Dorie Clark:
Well, the truth is, if you're trying to use the same parts of your brain, something is going to slip and it's just going to be suboptimal all around. But something that I realized, through some very meticulous time-tracking studies that I did over the course of several years, is that actually there are very complimentary activities that you can do. I mean, some examples might be working out and listening to a professional development book, or taking a walk and calling your mom, or whatever the case is, but it's two activities that you can do both of them equally well at the same time. It could be a cooking dinner with a friend, So you're doing a chore, but you're also visiting with someone that you want to spend time with. During my time tracking, I actually would double count those activities if I could legitimately do both of them equally well, and I came to realize that I'm actually able to build in about 28% more time into my week by doing that. I've become a huge fan of strategic multitasking.

Bobbi Rebell:
What I love about that is it's the anti-workaholic mentality, because it's giving you more downtime.

Dorie Clark:
Absolutely. It's really just being a little bit more thoughtful. I mean, sometimes we fritter away these moments. I mean, I remember back early in my career when I didn't live in New York and I had a car and I'd drive to work, sometimes I just wouldn't think about it and I'd put on top 40 radio and most of it was just listening to advertisements. I mean, that is legitimately wasted time. Whereas, with a little bit more thought, you're listening to some kind of an educational podcast, like this one, or you're listening to an audio book and you're actually using that as professional development time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number two, use jet lag for productivity.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. Speaking of things that we normally treat as wasted time, jet lag is often a top of the list. I mean, we all know, when we're jet lagged, you're not going to get anything "meaningful" done in terms of the way that we normally think of meaningful work. I mean, you can't do anything detail-oriented, you're propping your eyelids open, you're not much use, but what I came to realize is that, actually, we can begin to think about that time differently.

Dorie Clark:
Now, I would never say, "Oh, let's do your QuickBooks when you're jet lagged," that would be a bad move, but what I actually did one time, sort of inadvertently, was I was jet lagged on a trip to Russia and I ended up being able to do basically an entire year's worth of strategic planning while I was keeping myself awake at a cafe, partly because when you are jet lagged in that way, when you're half sleep deprived, your brain is able to make creative associations that are not necessarily logical and linear. I was able to be a lot more big picture about my thoughts and it enabled me to do better strategic planning than if I actually had been well slept and in a more logical frame of mind. I think it's really about matching your energy and your state of being to the tasks that are most appropriate at that time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number three, this one, I love this because it's a strategy that solves the issue of should you follow your passion or should you follow what's going to make a lot of money. You say focus on doing something interesting.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. What I've seen, and I'm sure you probably have too, Bobbi, is that there is so much pressure in our culture to find your passion. What's your passion? You don't know what your passion is? People can feel kind of inadequate and browbeaten at a certain point if you're not following your passion. I know a lot of people, smart, talented, hardworking people, that maybe they've reached a point where they have been working so hard and so long, they might not even necessarily be sure what their passions are anymore. With the work and the kids, they have kind of turned that part off because it's not even something you can really dwell on.

Dorie Clark:
What I wanted to do in my book, The Long Game, was to lower the stakes a little bit, because honestly, thinking about what is my passion is the dating equivalent of meeting somebody on OkCupid And then the next day your friends just keep saying, "Well, is he your soulmate? I mean, is he the one?" It's like, "Oh my God, I don't know. Give me some time." Instead of looking for the passion, instead of looking for the soulmate, what I suggest is just do what's interesting, just explore something that seems interesting. It's a low bar, but almost all of us are at least able to tell, okay, this seems interesting to me or not. Then if it stays interesting, keep moving in that direction, and if it doesn't, it's your signal to pivot. I think that that is sometimes a more sane and sustainable way to begin to move in the direction of things that you care about more.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, that can evolve. We're not going to go too deeply into it because I want people to read it more fully in the book, but one thing you weave throughout the book that I loved hearing about is your passion for theater, which was not something you did as a kid. You weren't a theater kid on stage every day, but you started to develop it and now it's evolving into perhaps a business. I can't wait to see the rest of the story evolve, but it can be something that sort of weaves through your life through different things, even taking a comedy course, different things that you did.

Bobbi Rebell:
But in the interest of moving on, we're going to go to number four because otherwise we'll just go on a million tangents with you. Number four, ask, but wait a year first. Because we do push people to go, go after that mentor, get a champion, get someone who's going to be a sponsor at work, but it's a little delicate. You say a year, that seems so long.

Dorie Clark:
It's true, it's true. I like to be a little extreme in this because I think that we have a cultural problem, because certainly in the United States, but in many other countries as well, where we have internalized way too much, the mentality of, well, it doesn't hurt to ask. I would like to say, actually yes, sometimes it does hurt to ask, because if you are making an inappropriate request too early in a relationship, you will destroy that relationship. Now, where people go sometimes is they say, "Oh, well I don't want to be a wallflower. I don't want to be stupid about things." Well, the point is, it's not that you never ask, it's that you have to let a relationship evolve to the point where the ask is appropriate and contextual.

Dorie Clark:
I mean, I am sure this is probably the case for you, Bobbi, with your business and the media profile that you've cultivated. I certainly experience this as well, where I will meet somebody, maybe at an event, maybe we connect on LinkedIn or something like that, and then five minutes later they're saying, "Oh, hey, I see you're connected to so-and-so," insert super prominent person, "Can you connect us?" It's like, "Wait, I don't even know anything about you." Also, people don't really get this context, but a million people are asking the same thing. I don't want to blow up my relationship with somebody by sending them five random people a day. It's important to be thoughtful and to be judicious.

Dorie Clark:
It's not like ask them anything. If it's like, "Oh, Bobbi, I really like that sweater. Where did you get it?" Fine, ask them that, but I'm talking about wait a year before you ask somebody for something that involves political capital. When you do that, you're able to establish a genuine relationship so that they understand that you are not in it for the wrong reasons and you're not in it to use them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and using is very different from mutually beneficial friendships. There's nothing wrong with that.

Bobbi Rebell:
The fifth one, my fifth tip I want you to talk about, is patience leads to a payoff, but it's not just patience, you have to not be passive. That's a lot of P words, but yes, patience leads to the payoff, but don't be passive.

Dorie Clark:
Yes. In The Long Game, I have a concept that I write about called strategic patients. This is something that is dear to my heart, because frankly, from the time that I've been a little kid, patience has never been my strong suit. I have not been very good at it, but it is something that I have had to learn over time. I think the part that used to bother me about patience was that it did seem so passive. I mean, the way that it gets talked about oftentimes, and at least how my mom would talk about it, it was like, "Oh, we're just going to sit back, good things will happen. Just be patient, things work out." I can't help it, I'm a little more type A than that. I like to make things happen, not just have them happen.

Dorie Clark:
We understand, of course, we can't make everything happen, but it's important for us to have agency and for us to have autonomy in our lives and to control what we can control. Therefore, I have created essentially a hybrid model of strategic patience, because the truth is, yeah, it takes time, they don't happen as fast as you want, but you don't want to be a sucker about it. So that means actually developing hypotheses about, well, how long should this take and what are the signs that it's working or not working, how can I monitor them and adjust accordingly?

Dorie Clark:
The truth is, there's a lot of power. If something is going to take five years and you know it's going to take five years and you're monitoring for your progress, you're actually able to weather that a lot better. I mean, would it be better if it was fast? Yes, but you're able to weather that in a way that mostly you couldn't if you thought it was going to take six months and then it's not happening, it's not happening. That's when people give up, and they give up prematurely and it means that they are not able to accomplish their dreams.

Bobbi Rebell:
You give such wonderful and tangible examples of that in the book. My favorite is the headstand example.

Dorie Clark:
Yeah, thank you. This is one of my favorites as well. It actually comes from Jeff Bezos from one of his shareholder letters to Amazon stockholders. He tells the story about how a friend of his hired a handstand coach for yoga, which is pretty funny of a concept, but it turns out it is actually a legit hard to do a handstand. What the handstand coach told Bezos' friend is that the average person guesstimates that it'll take about two weeks of practice in order to be able to do a handstand. That is not the case. It turns out it takes about six months of daily practice to be able to do a yoga handstand.

Dorie Clark:
The lesson I think for all of us is that unless we are thoughtful and deliberate, it is easy to wildly over or underestimate what is going to be necessary for something. We really have to be aware of that. We have to check our assumptions and be thoughtful, because if you think something's going to take two weeks and it ends up taking six months, which is a factor of 12 difference, you're going to give up, you are going to get discouraged. That's true whether your goal is writing a book, whether it's being featured in a high-profile publication, whether it's building a new career. Developing that strategic patience is a really important prerequisite to being able to persevere and succeed.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many wonderful insights in your book, The Long Game. I'm looking forward to hearing back from our listeners when they read it, so everyone should check it out. It will be everywhere, so we don't need to go through where your book will be, but where are you if people want to follow up with you?

Dorie Clark:
Thank you, Bobbi, I appreciate it. Well, the best place to find me, and also about 700 free articles on my website, is DorieClark.com. For people who are interested in the concept of playing the long game and becoming a more strategic and long-term thinker, I do have a free resource, which is The Long Game Strategic Thinking Self-assessment. Folks can get it for free at dorieclark.com/thelonggame.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much and continued success.

Dorie Clark:
Thanks, Bobbi, great to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, did any of you think that it took that long to learn how to do a handstand? Would you hire a coach to teach you that? Yeah, me too. Dorie is so great. I actually went to her website after the interview to get some of her extra materials, very much worth making the effort, everyone, highly recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many highlights from the interview, but the big takeaway for me was really that last part about strategic patience. Sometimes things just take time and if you don't have the right mindset, or in some cases, we don't have the resources to go the distance, we need to get honest about where we are spending our time and the best way to be spending our time. I have definitely been hit up by people very aggressively to make an introduction to other people way too early, so that whole thing really resonated with me. I mean, a year, it sounds like a long time, but time goes pretty quickly and you can't force a relationship. There's so much more in Dorie's latest book, The Long Game. She wasn't kidding, I really did read it intensely and I do plan to reference the book a lot. There's a lot of good stuff there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Everyone, please be in touch. Let me know what resonated with you on this interview and let me know what more you want to hear on the podcast. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. Of course, if you want to hear more from me, I would love for you to join my newsletter. Just go to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and sign up there. Big thanks to The Long Game author, Dorie Clark, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley [Wall 00:19:59]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your Grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Money Tips on how to buy an online business with entrepreneur Tonya Rapley

Who needs a start-up when you can buy your way into a business? My Fab Finance founder Tonya Rapley shares why and how she decided to buy an online business and her tips on what she would and would not do differently.

Tonya-Rapley-Main-Instagram-Club-Loofah-My-Fab-Finance.png

Money Tips On Buying An Online Business

  • Learn the types of questions you should ask before buying a business.

  • Learn how Tonya increased the average order value and how you can do the same.

  • Learn what kind of things you can do in the beginning to prepare for the growth that comes later.

  • Why it’s so important to have a marketing strategy for your business.



Follow Tonya!


Follow Club Loofah!


Follow My Fab Finance!


Other Important Links

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Tonya Rapley:
They were taking a significant loss. They were selling these loofahs for 4.99 and doing free shipping. Ridiculous.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hi, friends. Okay, we all know starting a business is not easy, but the truth is you don't have to start a business to be a business owner. There's a whole lot of options out there if you want to buy your way in. But there's a lot you need to know before you get started, and we're going to share some of the secrets that you need to know.

Bobbi Rebell:
My guest today is Tonya Rapley. You may know her as the co-host of one of the shows we featured in our summer watch party, Going From Broke. We were a little obsessed with it. Anyway, it's executive produced by Ashton Kutcher. Check it out on the Crackle channel. Tonya is also the founder of My Fab Finance and the author of The Money Manual. She is a big deal, guys. She's been featured everywhere from Vogue, Good Morning America, and The Today Show. But what you probably don't know is that she's also a holistic wellness business owner. In 2019 Tonya purchased Club Loofah, an inclusive self-care brand focused on inspiring and supporting regenerative practices for all. She mentioned this to me in passing recently, so I roped her into a podcast interview to tell us more about buying a business and basically how it all works. It's really interesting, guys. Here is Tonya Rapley.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tonya Rapley, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you. I'm excited.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so excited to have you. Long time overdue. I loved having you in my book and now here. You are the founder of My Fab Finance, which has an incredible community as well. You're host of Going From Broke, which was one of my favorite shows that I caught up on this summer. We highlighted it in our summer watch series. You have the 30-day shift program. And what we're going to talk about is your new online business, Club Loofah. Welcome, welcome.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you so much. It sounds like I do so many things, and I do.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many things, and wife and mother and all the things. Before we get into your online business, tell us a little bit about My Fab Finance.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, I mean, My Fab Finance, I started in 2013. It was essentially my accountability partner, as I decided that I was tired of being inconvenienced by being financially insecure. My goal at the time was to improve my credit score so that I could get my own apartment in New York City and hopefully get free clothes from Macy's. I just wanted free clothes. I was like, "Maybe they'll see what I'm doing and send me free clothes."

Bobbi Rebell:
Free clothes, always a noble cause.

Tonya Rapley:
You know, you know. And here we are, I guess. Well, I've been a full-time entrepreneur. I was able to transition into doing My Fab Finance full-time in 2015. We've created so many different elements of My Fab Finance and different iterations, but today our goal is to create a safe space for women to talk about money, as well as we have a mission of helping 1000 people achieve at least one financial goal that they're proud of.

Bobbi Rebell:
When we were doing our interview for my book, which is going to come out in the spring, which, guys, I'll talk about another time, you kind of mentioned, "Oh, by the way, yeah, I bought an online business." And so I wanted to bring you on the podcast, because you mentioned this oh so casually, like, "I'm doing 100 things, and by the way, I bought an online business," and then you move on to something else. I need to know about this. So a lot of people, they're home during this extended version, unfortunately, this extended pandemic that's so much longer than we thought we would be home. Of course it's good to start an online business, but not everyone has to start from scratch. Sometimes if you have the resources you could actually buy something and give yourself a jumpstart. And it sounds like that's what you did. So tell us about this decision to buy an online business and what you did. What is it?

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. So as a financial educator, I realized that a lot of my income was service-based. It was based on my ability to show up to coach my audience and everything else, and I wanted something that was easier to scale. That's how I thought about it before I bought the business, easier to scale. I knew I did not want to come up with a new concept, create a new brand and everything else. And so my sister, who had just closed her Shopify store, asked me... She said, "I know you're interested in potentially purchasing another business. Have you checked out the Shopify exchange?" And I hadn't heard of it, but I went to check it out immediately. And she then sent me this company, Club Loofah. And she just typed, "I think that you could really do something with this. It's a great concept."

Tonya Rapley:
And so I started to look into it more, and I thought to myself, "Wow, this is a really good concept." It is essentially a bath subscription business, a bath tool subscription business, because most people don't realize that you're supposed to replace your loofah every three to four weeks. Your loofah, your sponge, whatever it is you use in a bathroom, before it starts smelling, before it starts crumbling, you're to replace it. So we reached out to the owner, and he was about to actually close the doors, because he hadn't had any bites or anyone that had... He had a few conversations, but no one that was really serious. [inaudible 00:06:09], "Hey, the money's in escrow. Let's do this." So we ended up buying the business from him. He was actually based in Riverside, California at that time. We were living in Los Angeles, so we drove up to Riverside with a U-Haul, got all the inventory that he had on him-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, right, so you actually have to take inventory, because I have-

Tonya Rapley:
It is not drop shipping. Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
I do drop shipping for my grownup gear.

Tonya Rapley:
It is not drop shipping. We do not have a fulfillment center just right now. And so that's the thing. We got the items from them. We just started learning the e-commerce business when it came to loofahs. When we purchased the company, one of the things that was attractive to me was that it already had subscribers. It was a subscription business. So the day that we purchased the company, they had new orders, because it billed monthly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, why was he selling it? Presumably... I would always be suspicious. If someone's selling a business, you kind of go, "Well, why?" Because maybe if it's a good business, why would he sell it? So I would be wondering, what are the red flags?

Tonya Rapley:
So the reason he was selling it actually was because he inherited the business from the previous owner. So there was a previous owner who started the business for her daughters because she wanted to teach her daughters entrepreneurship. Then her daughters lost interest in it, and she didn't have the capacity to manage it, but he was already onboard as the marketing officer, the chief marketing officer, so he bought it. He believed in the business, thought it was a good company. He took it over. But then his father passed away, and he decided that he didn't want to do things just because anymore. He wanted to live a more purpose-focused life.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I have not seen this site before you, but it has a really nice editorial focus, and that's something that that is one of your strengths. Tell us more about the changes that you then brought in.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. Thank you very much, because when I bought the company, it was very fun and kitschy, and one of the things we realized was, if we're going to compete with the Targets... And we're not going to compete with Target and Amazon. We cannot drive our prices low enough to compete with them, so we have to appeal to a different demographic, someone who value self-care, who is willing to invest in their self-care and what's a higher end feeling product. And so we rebranded to go for a higher end. And so now the products that we're rolling out are more luxury-focused, or they're items that you can't find in your drug store. That was very intentional. And we wanted to clean it up a little bit. The company was based in California, so it was very beachy, Hollister... Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
When you look back, what would you have done differently? Are there questions you would have asked that you would advise people that are looking to buy an online business that's already somewhat established... What should they go in knowing that you wish you knew?

Tonya Rapley:
Absolutely. So when I bought the company, [inaudible 00:08:55], "Okay, it's bringing in revenue. You have XYZ subscribers. Cool. All right. Yeah, let's do this." Now I would definitely ask about their average order value, because the average order value determines if you can run ads. From my perspective, I was thinking, "All right, we're going to buy this company, and we're going to run ads, and we're just going to blow this out the water." But in order for ads to make sense, your average order value needs to be above what your minimum ad spend is going to be, or what it costs to acquire a customer.

Tonya Rapley:
They were taking a significant loss. They were selling these loofahs for 4.99 and doing free shipping. Ridiculous. So one of the things we did when I came in was changed the shipping model. We now charge 2.99 for shipping. And then we also increased the price point on some of the items. We allow the loofah, the classic loofah, to be the loss leader, but we increased the price points on some of the other items and introduced higher-priced items to the store as well, so that average order value and just the opportunity to bundle products... There wasn't really a strong opportunity to bundle products. So now we're in the final stages of developing a body care line so that you can bundle your body care with your loofah, since it's it's all body care anyway. So that's one of the questions I definitely, definitely would have asked, is average order value.

Tonya Rapley:
The retention rate was pretty good. Their retention rate... And that's a question, especially if you're buying a subscription business. How long does your average customer stay around? And do you have any existing customer service infrastructure in place? Because he was handling customer service inquiries. I found very early that I hated that aspect of the business, and we ended up hiring someone, but it would have been nice if there was somebody that came along with the company. So any personnel that would come that know the business outside of us going and doing training with you is another question that I probably would have asked. Those are the two big things we had to change, was... The average order value was a killer early on, because the company was basically losing money.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you really didn't know that when you bought it.

Tonya Rapley:
No, I didn't, and I should have asked for stronger financials, but I think that [inaudible 00:10:55] I was like, "It's a subscription business. How bad could it be? It's not to the point where they're searching for customers every month. I bought the customers with the business. How bad could it be?" Yeah, I didn't do the math on that one, Bobbi. I didn't think like, "Okay, this is a 4.99 loofah, and they're charging nothing. Free shipping. How much is shipping?" But we addressed that, and within the first year we increase the average order value I think by like 32%.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you do that?

Tonya Rapley:
We introduced a candle line, so most people were buying candles. And our candles are not... They're high-quality soy candles. Our candles were about 20... I think $28 for a candle. And so that definitely drives up, if you're buying a 4.99 loofah and a $28 candle. We introduced two higher end products, the ayate washcloth, and we actually just dropped our Japanese smoothing brush. So those aren't terribly expensive, but they're 10.99 and 11.99. And then we started adding bundle options. So when people checked out, we offer the upsell of a shower hook for people who don't have any hooks in their shower, so we offer that upsell. And then we also invited people to buy our family bundle, which was essentially four loofahs instead of one, just in case it's a family of four, and quite a few people decided to do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, you mentioned you wanted something that you could scale. Are you still bundling at home? Who is packaging this stuff up? You said you had no fulfillment center.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, so we still have a fulfillment manager. We do have a storage facility where we keep the things, and we have a facility manager, our fulfillment manager. So we are very hands-on still in that process. I don't pack the loofahs anymore, my husband doesn't, but our fulfillment manager does. And she's great. She's awesome. And that's something we had to look at when we were considering if it makes sense for us to place our products in a fulfillment center, which [inaudible 00:12:42] take about $2.80 to $3 per product, and our average order value just could not sustain that yet.

Tonya Rapley:
So maybe when we roll out the body care line... Our body care line is sulfate-free, microbiome friendly, and we've been really intentional about the body cream that we're creating. And we have a non-abrasive exfoliant that we're also rolling out a non-abrasive skin exfoliant, so it's papaya extract and natural fruit extract to help with skin turnover and cell turnover. So I think that once we roll those out, we might be in the zone of being able to send it to a fulfillment center, but maybe not. We have to see how our fulfillment manager feels, because we'll keep those profit margins... We'll grow them as long as we can, and we'll minimize the money that we're spending as much as we can.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I am impressed, as someone that started a small online business during the pandemic. The amount of detail that you're going into is incredible. You know all of your numbers. What is your best advice, before we wrap up, for people that are considering buying an online business? You went basically to the Shopify exchange, and you can look for whoever's selling a Shopify site. Is that what you advise? And what else?

Tonya Rapley:
It's work. It's work. And decide what works for you, drop shipping, or whether you're going to do the order fulfillment yourself. But you also have to ask yourself, "Do I have the endurance to grow this?" Because I think a lot of times we hear about these overnight successes when it comes to shop owners. They get placed in Oprah's most favorite things list and everything else. But what happens if it doesn't? What is your marketing strategy? My main advice would be, have a sound marketing strategy for how you're going to acquire customers and keep your customers, because if you don't have customers, you don't have a business.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true and such good advice. Okay. We know everyone needs to go to Club Loofah for sure. Where else can people find you and find out more about you and My Fab Finance and the community there? And also you have a 30 day shift program.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. Yeah, because I don't have enough things going on, right, Bobbi?

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:14:44]. You need more.

Tonya Rapley:
So I decided to launch a personal coaching company, because a lot of women who didn't fall into the scope of work we do at My Fab Finance but wanted to know more about, "How do I confidently take on my next life phase?" And so I created a program, 30 day shift, for women who are looking to powerfully move into the direction of their next life shift. So that's at my personal platform. It's Tonya, T-O-N-Y-A, .rapley, or tonyarapley.com. If you go to that website, it actually has all of my companies. So it has a link to My Fab Finance. It has the link to Club Loofah. But if you're interested in Club Loofah, that website is actually loofah.club, so L-O-O-F-A-H.club.

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't know that. That's another question though. You got to get the URL there. That's another thing you got to be asking. Wow.

Tonya Rapley:
Clubloofah.com is not available. And one of the things I wanted to do was make sure that we were in it for the long haul before I invested in buying the domain from someone else. Actually, after this interview, we're finally finalizing our trademark application, because the business was not trademarked, or they abandoned their previous trademark, so we're trademarking. So now that we've been in it for almost two years now, I'm in a phase like, "Okay, let's do all the things that we need to do and probably should have done." So I'm going to... Hopefully in the next year clubloofah.com will be ours. I'm like, "Who had a Club Loofah other than us?" I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they're just squatting on the name.

Tonya Rapley:
They're squatting, waiting for someone like me to come buy it from them. Because that's a big business too. Think about it. Buying and selling domains is actually a big business.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is a big business. And when I named Grownup Gear Grownup Gear, I looked very carefully at what was available before I named a company. So that's also something to really look at, whether you start a company or buy a company. Look at the domain names that the company owns, because that's really important.

Tonya Rapley:
That is. That is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tonya, thank you so much. Oh, you didn't say your socials.

Tonya Rapley:
Oh. So My Fab Finance, that's M-Y-F-A-Bfinance.com. And then Tonya Rapley, so that's T-O-N-Y-A.rapley. And then Club Loofah is Club Loofah, C-L-U-B L-O-O-F-A-H.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. So you have that on social media.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank goodness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank goodness.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, we have that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Good. Thanks so much.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, there was a lot there, so much good stuff. I want to remind everyone full transcripts are available. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com. Go to the podcast section. You'll get the show notes and the transcripts.

Bobbi Rebell:
My take here is that whether you're going to start a business or you're going to buy a business, you need to know that it's going to be a lot of work, probably more than you expect, probably lots of surprises, and probably going to cost you a lot more than that purchase price. Yes, Tonya had customers. They were subscription-based. That's all good. But it wasn't a profitable business, and then she had to deal with that. You need a lot of, frankly, capital runway to manage a business when you're dealing with it initially and you don't really know what's coming at you. So make sure you ask all the questions you need to ask and that you're happy with the answers. The good news with buying a business is you do kind of get a headstart. She already had customers. That's great. You start in the middle. You have a concept there. But you also have challenges that were created by someone else, and you may not be aware of all of them, and they come at you a lot faster because you're already sort of in the middle. Make sure you're ready.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow or subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, reviews are so appreciated. I read every one, and they mean the world to me. Let me know what topics you want me to cover. DM me. And please follow me also on Instagram at bobbirebell1. And go to my website if you want to get on my newsletter list. Just as I said, bobbirebell.com. Pretty simple, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please, support Tonya. She is amazing. Check out Club Loofah. Follow it on all the socials. And, of course, My Fab Finance and Tonya Rapley as well. Say thanks to Tonya for sharing her journey and for helping us all be financial grownups

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of 100s of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking out fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Money Tips from Machiavelli to have more power in the workplace with author Stacey Vanek Smith

Want to have more power in the workplace? NPR’s Stacey Vanek Smith’s new book Machiavelli for Women takes the lessons from Machiacelli’s The Prince to give some specific and realistic ways to succeed.


Money Tips

Some money tips from the many amazing women Stacey references and interviews in her new book, Machiavelli for Women.


  1. The money tip from Ruth Bader Ginsburg RBG about being interrupted and mansplained while being a Supreme Court justice.

  2. The money tip from Sally Krawcheck on why people were much more open and receptive to an idea when using humor or distancing yourself from a controversial idea.

  3. The money tip from Janet Yellen on why it’s important to create a place where people want to work and why making them feel supported is also so important.

Follow Stacey!


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Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

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  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.


Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
A lot of the advice is cringy and it does feel backwards. It is disturbing to me to say stuff like, "If you smile more in an interview or bring up a personal or social connection with someone, you're more likely to get what you're negotiating. The negotiation is more likely to be successful." Or, "If you go into a negotiation with an adversarial attitude or you're feeling very assertive, that really could backfire. People will see you as pushy or aggressive. You should go in with a more collaborative, friendly attitude."

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends. In the words of our guest this week, a lot of the advice she's going to give is cringy. It is even disturbing and it feels kind of backwards, but the sad truth is that, well, it works. I've been trying it out, and she's right. I am talking about Stacey Vanek Smith. If you listen to public radio, you know her as the superstar journalist from NPR's Planet Money and The Indicator from Planet Money. She is out with a new book, Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win in the Workplace. It is a very high concept book. Stacey takes the 500-year-old ideas of Machiavelli and uses them as a reference point for advice for present date women. And guess what? The advice is really not what we usually hear at all. I'll share my thoughts about the book on the other side of the interview, but let's get right into it. Here is Stacey Vanek Smith. Stacey Vanek Smith, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Thanks, Bobbi. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am holding up, even though no one can see it as usual, I always seem to do that,, your new book Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win the Workplace. This is a really ambitious book. How did you even come up with this concept of bringing in this 500-year-old manuscript book from Machiavelli that people really associate with male power to this concept to female power?

Stacey Vanek Smith:
To be honest, I kind of backed into the Machiavelli part. This book came about because I was frustrated personally. I've been covering business and economics for about 15 years in public radio, always in public radio. I had been, as part of that job, talking to a lot of economists, talking to a lot of business leaders, talking to CEOs. And so many of them are men. Economics is 75% male. CEOs are 80% male. For Fortune 500 companies, it's 90% male. And then the things like the gender pay gap. Women make about 80 cents on the dollar compared to what men make. That has been stuck for 10 years. At the same time in my own career, I've been reading a lot of advice books and listening to a lot of advice and just being really frustrated with the advice being offered to women. I felt like a lot of it didn't resonate with me.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I feel like there's a lot of girl power stuff that in my experience has not worked well. And then when I tried to use advice geared towards men, that definitely didn't work well. And I just wanted the truth. I just wanted some real advice. I was like, "Just give it to me straight." My mind just kept going back to Machiavelli. This class I had taken in college, I had read Machiavelli for that class and I hated Machiavelli. I thought he was so cynical and just very basic and obsessed with stupid things I didn't care about like crushing people and power and having... I didn't care about any of that stuff, obviously. I went into public radio. If I cared about money and power, I wouldn't have gotten into public radio. But I started thinking about Machiavelli and I re-read The Prince and all these lights went off in my brain. And that's how the project got started.

Bobbi Rebell:
Some of the advice, in your own words, that you give in this book is pretty disturbing. Tell us, what do you see as disturbing in this book?

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Yes, it's really disturbing. People have told me this. They're like, "A lot of the advice is cringy. It feels backwards." A lot of the advice is cringy and it does feel backwards. It is disturbing to me to say stuff like, "If you smile more in an interview or bring up a personal or social connection with someone, you're more likely to get what you're negotiating. The negotiation is more likely to be successful." Or, "If you go into a negotiation with an adversarial attitude or you're feeling very assertive, that really could backfire. People will see you as pushy or aggressive. You should go in with a more collaborative, friendly attitude." That is disturbing to me. But what is way more disturbing to me is that women are twice as likely to live in poverty after age 65 or that 80% of CEOs are men. That women are not getting the funding they need for their companies, so that even though 40% of businesses are started by women, 2% of venture capital goes to women.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
So, women's businesses were far more likely to fail during the pandemic because they just weren't capitalized. The same is true for minorities and the funding for those businesses actually fell last year, which is amazing to me. That is far more disturbing to me. And so a lot of the advice is advice I wish I didn't have to give. I wish that a lot of it we're different, but we are living in an unfair structure. All you have to do is look at the data and you see it. We're living inside of an economy that is not fair. And it is, also, it is a structure that is very powerful. It is a lot. There's a lot of money in our economy. There's a lot of power in our economy. It is changing, but it's changing pretty slowly and in certain ways it's stuck. And if you want to navigate it, I just at least wanted to give people the tools that they needed to navigate it and I wanted to be as honest as I could.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's hard to hear because I know I've been coached to not put, let's say, a little smiley face in an email or to not have these little soft filler sentences in there. But the truth is, you say in the book, that works when coming from a woman.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Oh, yes. The softener. This is super interesting to me, too. So, I've been beating myself up about this for years. Overuse of exclamation points, overuse of emoji, lots of softeners. "Hey, how's it going? I was just wondering if XYZ." And I've been beating myself up about this. Why do I say this all the time? Why do I say things like, "You know, I was just thinking." Why do I say this when I'm introducing an idea? But studies show that men actually are more open to ideas and retain things that women say more when softeners are used. Softeners work. That's why we use them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And it's interesting because, as I said, we have been coached to take those out. In terms of money tips, one thing that I really enjoyed in the book is that you refer to and interview some incredible women. So, I want to go through three of my favorites. So, the first one that you reference is RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, with some mansplaining and interrupting that famously went on with someone that actually was before her. I mean, she was in the position of power and yet this was happening. Tell us about that and how she dealt with it and what people can take away from that.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
This is one of the most amazing anecdotes in the book. It came from a study that came out a few years ago that looked at Supreme Court transcripts to study interruptions. And what they found was that female justices on the Supreme Court got interrupted three times more often than male justices, even though they spoke less and used fewer words when they did speak. What was even more shocking was that the lawyers arguing cases before the Supreme Court were also interrupting female justices, even though they are not allowed to interrupt justices. They would just jump in and interrupt female justices quite frequently, including Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And as someone who has really struggled to be heard...

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I'm in media so it's a lot of pitch meetings, ideas meetings. I've had my ideas stolen a million times. I've been talked over, interrupted, people forget I said things all the time. I mean, this is something that's definitely happened to me in my career in life. And I felt so relieved. Just like, "This happens to Ruth Bader Ginsburg?" I thought I was just messing up. But no, if it's happening to Ruth Bader Ginsburg, I think you can assume that it happens to literally everyone. It's just most of us don't have as much power as Ruth Bader Ginsburg had.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another incredible woman that you did talk to in the book is Sallie Krawcheck. She's featured pretty prominently throughout the book. There's some things that you reveal in the book and I'm going to just leave it to people. I'm going to tell people it's on page 85. So, you can go to the book and look it up when you buy the book. You can learn about some of the truly offensive things that I don't even want to go there on this podcast. What's the Machiavellian lesson that we learn from her? She has a great sense of humor.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
She has a great sense of humor, and she's so honest and she sees so clearly. It was such a privilege to talk with her because when I asked questions, she never couched anything. She was just completely direct and honest. I learned a lot of things from her. One of my favorite lessons from Sallie was she said, "A lesson I think people don't get enough is that this is not your fault." She's like, "It ends up kind of falling on women and marginalized workers to deal with an unfair workplace. But the fact the workplace is unfair is not your fault. And the fact that it's falling on you to deal with it is really unfair." There was a lot of relief in that because, I mean, all the time and energy we spend strategizing to get paid more, to get promoted more quickly, or to get promoted at an equal level as our white male colleagues with hair, that's time we could be spending on other things, on life or Netflix or coming up with brilliant ideas or playing with our kids.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Instead, we have to spend it doing things like reading articles on how to get more out of your negotiation, trying to figure out why you're underpaid and things like that. My other favorite pieces of advice from Sallie Krawcheck had to do with leadership. Of course, she was working in the super male world of Wall Street, super male world of Wall Street, and trying to give orders to people who did not necessarily want to take direction from a woman, were not excited about that. Two things she said she would do. One, she used humor. Humor as a softener, actually. She would use humor and make jokes. And she said, "It's really hard for people to hate you if they're laughing with you," which I thought was pretty brilliant.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
And the other thing she would do is distance herself from her ideas. And I've started using this and it's amazing how well it works. So, I mean, if she felt very strongly like, "We need to go in direction B," she would just say, "You know, I was just thinking, I'm not sure I believe this, but why don't we try direction B and just see how that works out?" And she said people were much more open and receptive than they were if she came guns blazing out of the gate, "I feel strongly we need to go in direction B."

Bobbi Rebell:
And that brings us to the third woman that I want to highlight, which is Janet Yellen. So, former Fed chair, treasury secretary. You titled her section, The Power of Preparation and Pulling Up Your Socks. Tell us more about her style because she really took a feminine approach to managing an office. Again, very male environment at the Fed.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Janet Yellen told me that she did not think managing people was hard. She was like, "You just tell people that you value their work, you support them in their work, and you make sure they feel valued." And I was like, "Oh, well, yeah." But I think part of the reason Janet Yellen has gotten so much support is because that is what she gives people. She gives people support. She thinks about what will make them happy, what will motivate them. And I mean, it's very simple, but I mean, not all managers do that. I would say almost no managers do that. It's really rare. And the fact she just said, "Oh, managing people isn't hard," was hilarious to me, but I think she comes by it honestly. I think she just cares about the work and respects the people doing the work and conveys that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I think that represents one of the common themes in the book, which is that you have to be very practical. You can be idealistic and say, "I don't want to be the woman that gets my ideas heard because I have a sense of humor and make people laugh or present them in a softer way," as with Sallie Krawcheck, or with Janet Yellen talking about, "I just want to have a place where people want to work." But perception and what we want to be isn't always the practical solution. And I love that this book has a lot of very specific and practical ideas for the readers. It also has a lot of you in it. It's very personal. You reveal a lot that I did not know. I've listened to your work for as long as I could remember. Tell us, why did you get so personal? Because you do reveal a lot of vulnerable moments in your life.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Yes. That was a conscious choice simply because, for me reading books about career advice, the advice always seems to be given a little bit from on high, like from an expert, and it makes it very hard to connect with people. So, I wanted to be very honest about where I was coming from. I'm like, "Listen, I don't like negotiating. Historically, I've been abysmally terrible at it. I have not had success in negotiation. I've avoided them studiously, for years often." I wanted to be honest about where I was coming from, because that is honestly where I was coming from. I have a lot of these issues I was exploring for myself. I didn't know what I would find. I didn't know what the research would show. I didn't know what people would say. But I wanted to be honest about my own experiences, the good and the bad, just so that people would understand that I've also been through this, too, some of these things.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I wanted to be honest about the experiences that I had had in the hopes that it would make people who are maybe frustrated feel less alone. And also that they would know that it wasn't just like, "Oh, well I have had this transplendent career with no moments of self-doubt and I've just gone from peak to peak and it's been amazing, but I understand some of you people are having trouble, so here's my advice." I wanted to be totally honest about some of the experiences and some of the hardest experiences in my career. I thought that vulnerability was important.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I agree. And I think that it really works for the book and I think it's going to be very appreciated by the readers. And I know it certainly really hit home with me because I put you on a pedestal and hearing that there were times that really sucked in your career and knowing that, I think, makes you so much more relatable. It makes the book so much more relatable, and I really think it is appreciated. Stacey Vanek Smith, this has been so wonderful. Tell us more. We know the book is going to be everywhere. Where can people reach you? Besides, of course, hosting. We didn't even say. You host The Indicator.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I host the podcast, The Indicator from Planet Money. There's my website, which is staceyvaneksmith.com. I wasn't very creative in the naming of it, but you can contact me through that site. I'm also on Twitter @svaneksmith, V-A-N-E-K Smith. Or Facebook, or I'm also on LinkedIn. So, you can message me any of those ways. And oh, I'm also on Instagram. All the social media things, or you can just email me through my website.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. It was such a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, friends, a brief recap. You were warned. The advice is, yeah, I think you guys all agree with me, it's pretty cringy. But it works. And we have proof now because we talked about three women in our interview, and if you go through the book, there's a lot more real life examples of exactly how, well, kind of messed up it is, but better to know than to be ignorant. And we learned that even some of the most remarkable women, we talked about RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sallie Krawcheck, and Janet Yellen, they've had to use these Machiavellian principles to manage their careers. And yes, even all-star journalists like Stacey Vanek Smith have had major career setbacks by doing what we're kind of told to do even though, as we know, it's not what works. The hardest part about this interview was actually having to end it because there is so much we did not get to, but it's all in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
And so I hope you guys are going to step up and challenge yourself and pick up a copy. So, this book, maybe it feels a little intimidating when you first see it. Trust me, it is worth the effort. And once you get into it, you're not going to be able to put it down. Settle in. Read it this fall. Most of the books here, I talk about being a quick read, page-turners and so on. And there are times when I meant to put down the book and it was the end of a chapter and I said, "Oh, I'm going go and make dinner and do something else," but then I read just a few more pages and got back into it. But honestly, this is a book to savor and really let the concepts settle in and sometimes flip back and reread a little section to make sure that you really get the point and can apply it to what's going on in your life. It's worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends. This podcast, it's free and that's wonderful. I put so much effort into it and I want to spread the word. I want to grow my audience and I need your help. Please share it with your friends, post on social media, and if you're not already, please do follow or subscribe depending on what podcast platform you listen to. They use different words these days. I think you know what I mean. We want to make sure that you get the podcasts on a regular basis. And by the way, if that platform is Apple or any other platform that allows reviews, please leave a review. I read them all and I truly appreciate all of your support. I also appreciate the fabulous Stacey Vanek Smith, author of Machiavelli for Women, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley [Wall 00:19:14]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

4 actually do-able ways to recover from a financial crisis- including which 'rules' to break.

Michele Cagan, author of The Financial Recovery Workbook and a CPA joins us to share strategies to recover from life’s inevitable financial setbacks

Michele-Cagan-Main-Instagram-Author-The-Financial-Recovery-Workbook.png

4 Money Tips to Recover from a Financial Crisis

  1. Understand your emotional relationship with money

  2. Know your financial facts

  3. Don't wait for the perfect plan

  4. Don’t follow all the personal finance rules during a crisis




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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code grownup for 15% off, your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Michele Cagan:
If you are at the beginning of a crisis and you know it's going to last, the problems, the financial ones are going to last for a while, you should borrow money as soon as you can, because by the time you need to borrow that money, your credit is going to be shot, and you're not going to be in as good a position to borrow it.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of how to be a financial grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being thrown up is hard, but together we've got this. Hey, grownup friends. This is the episode I wish I had done back in March of 2020 because we're going to be talking about how to recover from my financial crisis. And boy yeah, we needed that when the world shut down back then, but we have it now. Better, late than never, right? Michele Cagan is a CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook, which is a step-by-step plan for what to do when we are hit by a financial crisis. As we go through our adult lives, many of us and those we care about, will get hit with something. It could be a massive unexpected medical bill, divorces, job losses, or just bad luck that hits us financially.

Bobbi Rebell:
What I loved about my interview with Michele, is that not only were we able to discuss very specific ways to deal with a financial crisis, she was also pretty bold about breaking the rules of what we expect experts to tell people to do. She also reveals her own unexpected financial crisis and shares her personal experience, which I really appreciated because just because you're a money expert doesn't mean it can't happen to you. We're all vulnerable at some point in our lives, often at a lot of points. Here is Michele Cagan, CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook. Michelle Cagan. You're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Michele Cagan:
Hi Bobbi, thank you so much for having me on.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm excited to have you on to talk about your latest book, which is also your 12th book. It is called The Financial Recovery Workbook. Now you brought with you specific action items, but before we get to them, what inspired this book? Was there a certain aha moment that said, now is the time after 11 other books?

Michele Cagan:
Well, I've actually had some big financial setbacks in the past few years related to health issues in my family. I was struggling to recover from some of those. And I thought I'm a financial professional and if I'm having a hard time dealing with all these financial pieces, I can't even imagine someone who's uncomfortable or isn't an expert in finance is going to do. So I put together some of the stuff I used with my clients and some of the stuff I used myself. And I thought, let me put this all together in a book that can help people get through things in a way that's manageable step-by-step and will be sustainable so that they can use the skills that they're learning forever in their money journey.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I love the tone of the book because and people can hear it in your voice right now that there's an empathy because so often we vilify people for being in financial crisis. When very often, the things that happen, happen to them, like COVID, for example, that were not in their control that, well, of course you can plan for a rainy day, as they say, and have an emergency fund. Life happens, right?

Michele Cagan:
Absolutely. Most people's emergency funds. Unfortunately aren't big enough to weather a true crisis.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And so many things we can't possibly predict. Let's get into your fourth things, your solutions really, that can help us in financial crisis. The first one is actually really the most important I would say, because it's really about taking a step back and assessing things.

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. The very first thing that is helpful to do is to acknowledge, understand, and welcome your existing emotional relationship with money, especially during a crisis. A crisis situation could be something like a divorce or a job loss. They all come with their own huge set of anxiety, fear, self-blame, shame. And it's really hard to separate the emotions from financial tasks and that can leave you completely stuck or make it impossible to move forward. So even if you can't overcome or get rid of emotions, which I'm not suggesting that you do, acknowledge that they're there, pay attention to them, and realize that sometimes when you feel like you can't do something, it's one of your emotions kicking in. And once you face that it can help you take the next step.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Especially during a crisis, our emotions can be our worst enemy or our best assets. So, that's the first thing, is to really understand our emotional relationship with money. The second thing you want to talk about is knowing the financial facts so that we can have the best foundation for moving forward. Tell us more about that.

Michele Cagan:
Even not during a crisis, millions of people have anxiety around money and finances and they don't look at it. They don't want to see it. They don't want to look at their bank accounts or their credit card statements, but when you're in a crisis, it's even more important to know what resources you have. You need to know, how much money I have, where can I get more money from? How much space do I have on my credit cards? How much equity do I have in my house? You need to know what your available resources are, so that you can use them in the most effective way and not run out.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that really holds people back though, is that they don't want to make the wrong move. And not only that, they want to make the perfect decision. That's your third thing to talk about, right?

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. That's a really big sticking point. And that honestly happens to me sometimes too. It causes a decision paralysis because you feel like if I do the wrong thing, X, Y, and Z are going to happen. If I do this wrong thing, I'm going to lose my house. And especially when you're emotional, the consequences that you attach to any specific move can spiral and get even bigger. I'm going to end up homeless. My kid won't have dinner tonight kind of stuff. So making a plan, even if it's not a perfect plan, especially if it's not a perfect plan, anything that will help you take a step, one step at a time, because you can always change your plan. Even after you put it into place, if it's not working, you can change it. But if you don't start with a plan and start making moves, everything is just going to get worse.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what advice would you have for people who can't get over that hurdle? Can you give us maybe a real life example of someone that waited and can't make that next move because they're waiting for it to be perfect?

Michele Cagan:
Oh yeah, absolutely. So I was actually dealing with some really high medical bills and I don't know if you've had this experience, but when a child goes into the hospital, they don't tell you how much you're going to have to pay. It could be $200. It could be $20,000. You can't plan for it. You don't know what it's going to be until after all the bills come in. So I had an experience like that and I thought, it's going to be $3,000. And I planned on that and it ended up being a lot more than that because it didn't turn out the way I expected. And it was so different than what I expected.

Michele Cagan:
I went a little bit into anxiety mode where I was like, okay, I need to figure out exactly how I'm going to pay all of this off, where I'm going to get the money from. And I went through circles and circles and circles of the planing until finally I just said, okay, stop circling, make some phone calls, do one step at a time. Call and see if you can do a payment plan, see where you can move some money around and start taking steps instead of just thinking about the plan spiraling and it made a difference.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's the thing. We're talking about true financial crisis. These are not things that can be instantly solved in wrap it up with a bow and move on with your life. Sometimes there's going to be multiple and longterm steps to get out of it, right?

Michele Cagan:
Absolutely. And most people, in the immediate crisis, there are costs involved with that. But most of the kinds of crises that people face, again, job loss, health problems, a natural disaster, they have ongoing costs. If you have a health problem, you might need medicine or extra treatment or doctor visits for six months or five years. It's not just a one and done thing. With a divorce, you have to set up a whole new household. Your childcare is different. You need health insurance in a different way. So many things change and there are so many moving parts that you really need to work not just small picture, but big picture, but you still have to start with the next step.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said. The fourth one is something that people don't like to say, but I think it's genius. You say that during a crisis, the normal personal finance rules don't apply. So don't follow them. Everyone's always saying follow the things that we know. If you have debt, these are the different things that you can do to pay down the debt. You can use the snowball method. You can use the avalanche method. And this is not just applying to debt. When you say it's okay to break the rules in the crisis, what does that mean? And give us some examples.

Michele Cagan:
So, if somebody's having money a tight finance ... Something came up, they really need more space in their financial. The first thing I tell them to do is stop making retirement plan contributions. Just stop.

Bobbi Rebell:
Really?

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. If you're able to make it up later, that's fine. But if you're choosing between keeping your electricity on or making your mortgage payment and putting money in your retirement account, skip the retirement account for now. I also tell people that, for example, if you are at the beginning of a crisis and you know it's going to last the problems, the financial problems are going to last for a while, you should borrow money as soon as you can because by the time you need to borrow that money, your credit is going to be shot and you're not going to be in as good a position to borrow it.

Michele Cagan:
It's the opposite of what I would normally tell anyone to do. But in a crisis situation, you need to expand your available, your currently available resources, as much as possible. Locking money away in a retirement account, that's not a smart choice because if you need to pull it back out, you've got penalties. You've got interest, you've got taxes if nothing else, unless you put it in a Roth IRA, which is a different situation. I'm just talking more about 401k through work. If you need to use credit cards to make your budget, normally I would tell people, if you can't make your budget without using credit cards, you need to change your budget. But in a crisis situation, if you need to use your credit cards to buy your kids medicine, you do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Michele Cagan:
You use all the financial space you have, and then you work on getting everything under control and managing it better. And then, you can recover financially after the crisis is settled down.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us a few more tips before I let you go because this is really interesting. I'm sitting here and I'm really processing what you're saying. And I think a lot of our listeners are as well. This is really, I hate the expression thinking out of the box. It's so tired, but it really applies in this case because everything you're saying in the context of a crisis does make sense. And yet, it is breaking so many rules.

Michele Cagan:
I know. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of financial professionals who hate this book because of that, quite frankly, I think another thing that's really important for people to do is prioritize their expenses in order of survival. So a lot of times in budgeting advice, it's always money into savings first, money into retirement first. And what I'm saying here is, you pay your house, food, electricity, car, before you do anything else. You need to make sure you can get to a job interview, to the doctor. You need food, you need to live in your house.

Michele Cagan:
And yes, maybe you can downsize some of those expenses, but those are your priorities, your immediate survival expenses are what to focus on. Another thing that I tell people they can do is increase your insurance deductible so that you'll have lower premiums because right now, the current cash matters more than anything else. People can maybe not look at their credit scores for a few months, because it's very possible that during a crisis, their utilization is going to go up and it's going to drop their credit score. It doesn't mean they're a bad person. It doesn't mean they're a big risk. It means that right now, they need to use their available resources. And then, when things are back on track, everything else will fall into place.

Bobbi Rebell:
If we know of a friend or relative who's in a financial crisis, what is the best way to help them? Because we get a lot of mixed messages. Of course, we want to be there for friends and family, but we're also told, you can't always afford to just be ... Sometimes you worry about being an enabler, depending on what caused the crisis. You want to be there for them, but maybe you can't afford to give them money and you want to loan them, but you don't know how things are spiraling out of control. What is the best way to be there for people?

Michele Cagan:
I think one of the best ways to be there for people is honestly just to listen and not try to fix things for them. That's something that a lot of people forget to do. They hear somebody talking about a problem and they immediately go into fix mode. But a lot of times, someone just wants to be able to listen without judgment and not have someone else swoop in. Just to acknowledge, hey, that situation really sucks. Maybe I can take your kids for a few hours. Would that be helpful for you? It doesn't always have to be about money. It has to do about care and support.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good point. And I love that idea of helping with other things that don't necessarily cost you money, but maybe you can help them with their money situation. Because if you can maybe take their kids and give them free babysitting, or maybe you give them a ride to work, if they don't have a car at that time, things like that, maybe are ways that you can help people that are going through a financial crisis. This has been wonderful, Michele. Where can people find out more about you and pick up the book?

Michele Cagan:
They can visit my website, which is MicheleCaganCPA.com. And the book, I think is now available pretty much everywhere.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are your social channels?

Michele Cagan:
I'm on Twitter @MicheleCaganCPA, Facebook at Michele Cagan CPA, and Instagram. Guess what? It's Michele Cagan CPA.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you Michele Cagan CPA for joining us. This has been great. I love the book. I know a lot of our listeners are going to get so much value out of this, not just for themselves, but also for the people that they care about. So thank you so much.

Michele Cagan:
Thank you so much for having me on.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's my take friends. It was really refreshing to hear someone be so real about the stuff that we really don't talk about. A quick recap here. Michele reminds us not to let her emotions get the best of us in a crisis and to actually look at the numbers. It's really hard sometimes, but that's really the only way we're going to know exactly what we're dealing with in terms of how big a crisis is. We also can't wait for the perfect plan. We may be choosing from a bad plan versus an even worse plan. And that is why we may need to break some of the rules we have been told well, to never break. Her book, The Financial Recovery Workbook, is just that, a workbook. It has lots of tools and worksheets to actually execute a lot of the money tips that we've shared on this episode. For more on the podcast, make sure you go to my website, bobbirebell.com and just click on the podcast tab where you can get show notes and full transcripts of every show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Finally, if you enjoy this podcast, I could really use your help. Please tell a friend. You can tell more than one friend, and if you have a free moment, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts and also make sure you're following the podcast. Wherever you listen to you automatically get new episodes once a week. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to listen and to Michele Cagan, CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips For Financial Grownups.

Top 5 Money Tips for Planning for the Unexpected with Vicki Cook and Amy Blacklock

Grownups need to step up and do some planning for things we don’t want to even think about let alone admit we need to be ready to do. The duo behind Women Who Money join us to share their absolute must-do’s right now-without waiting another minute- from their new book Estate Planning 101.

Amy-Blacklock-Vicki-Cook-Main-Instagram-Women-Who-Money.png

5 Money Tips for Planning for the Unexpected


1 - Know your net worth 

2 - Speaking of insurance 

3 - Name your beneficiaries 

4 - Protect yourself in case of emergency 

5 - Protect your assets and minor children





Follow Amy + Vicki!


Follow Bobbi!




Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.





Full Transcript:


Summer Watch Party: Million Dollar Listing New York with special guest co-hosts Paulette Perhach and Erin Lowry.

Bobbi and her guests reveal their connections to MDLNY and share exclusive insider secrets and money lessons learned from the Bravo reality tv series focused on high end New York Real Estate agents in the final installment of the financial grownup summer watch party series. 

Summer-Watch-Party-Million-Dollar-Listing-Instagram-with-Erin-Lowry-and-Paulette-Perhach.png

A Little About The Show

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Well, we have to get into it because I also want to reveal the secret connection to the show that we all have. But let's briefly describe what the show is for the few people that have not seen it. It's been running for a lot of years, but we're going to focus mainly on the present year because it's really awesome. Million-dollar Listing has us following a glamorous group of New York city, real estate agents, as they jostled to get the big deals. And I always find the title funny guys, because I don't think there's ever been a deal where it was close to even just a million. These are mega deals. This season, thankfully, finally, we had a woman join the cast, which besides being obviously long overdue is also where you come in, Paulette.

Paulette Perhach:
Yes. I work with KJ bringing her power and her incredible spirit into the written word for her. I work as her writer, so it's like I get the KJ live show and she's a powerhouse. She's had an incredible effect on me as a businesswoman, just over the last year, working with her.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right and KJ, I should say is short for Kirsten-Jordan who's wonderful and she has been rising through the ranks of brokers. I don't know how she was not well known before this show because she is phenomenal. And through you Paulette, Erin and I have met her right Erin?

Erin Lowry:
Sure have. It was my first real life Bravo celebrity meeting and can I just say, I'm going to disclaimer this right now. I'm a massive Bravo fan. I watch every version of the real Housewives, but I had never watched a million dollar listings before about 24 hours before recording with this podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get into the show. First of all, each of you ladies general take on the show.

Paulette Perhach:
So I obviously have been watching it. I have it on my calendar when it comes out. I see how hard KJ works behind the scenes and then to see how it's all glammed up and like, "Oh, I'm throwing a party to sellers." And it looks so easy. So it's really fun to see behind the scenes how hard she's working. I find it inspiring. You do have to control your FOMO at like, "I will never have a pool in my New York City apartment." But in the same way that part of my business plan came from watching Shark Tank, I think we could all learn about sales from watching Million Dollar Listing and just get some fabulous decorating ideas that we can try to recreate an Ikea.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
The negotiating and sales tips and how to create a scarcity environment when one doesn't necessarily exist are really impressive takeaways from the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
On almost every episode in almost every deal the brokers come in and I'm shocked that people sometimes allow themselves to be filmed this way, knowing they're going to be basically talked about behind their back and yet on national TV about their bad taste because they come in and they basically swoop in, get rid of their stuff and stage it, which is insulting to the people that own it. To me, that's a mini-lesson about the illusion and going to something I know Paulette is very good at, which is storytelling because they basically take out the owner's story and put in the story of what they think will be worth the most money.

Paulette Perhach:
Or neutral. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:08:56]. They neutralize it.

Paulette Perhach:
So you can envision your own story without it being... That 11 Madison, I think it was, "mansion", that was a 3000 square feet inside 3000 square feet outside. That was so gaudy. It had the gold couch. I was deeply stressed watching this episode and yeah, it made sense, where it was like, "It's better to have it empty than to have this gold couch in here."

Bobbi Rebell:
The that I thought about that episode was when Tyler rented the band, I was like, "Couldn't you have just rented couches for a night instead of a band?"

Paulette Perhach:
Well, that's what Ryan Serhand said. He's like "There's chairs for the musicians, but not chairs for the brokers who are here to help you sell your place. What are young doing?"

Bobbi Rebell:
It also to the point of FOMO, I think that it also helps you see behind the curtain in some ways, even though, I'm interested to see what Paulette says about what really goes on behind the scenes more, but it helps you see that so much of what we buy is a marketing illusion. That when they stage an apartment and we see them remake it in relative to the price inexpensive way, although I'm mortified at what they spend to stage. It can be crazy money to stage these things. They're presenting it so it can sell, but there's nothing under there. Half the time the bed doesn't even have a real mattress. It's not even an actual bed and you can't actually use it. It's all for show.

Erin Lowry:
In context for people about crazy amount of money. We're talking between 70 to $150,000 to stage a lot of these apartments.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is an inconceivable film. If a broker came to me and said that would just walk away.


Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Erin Lowry:
It's interesting too, on the point of what they have to do to the apartment. And I'm really curious, Paulette for you to speak to what they as sellers have to be doing. The clothing that they have to wear, the hairstyles, they have to have the amount of upkeep of their own appearance. You see on the first episode of the season, Tyler, who I assume is a fairly new addition, maybe it was their last season season.

Bobbi Rebell:
Last season.

Erin Lowry:
He talks about the clothing that he's having to buy the amount of money he's having to put into presentation so that his vibe is matching his desired clientele's vibe. And that's a huge upfront cost. Sure, we're seeing that they're getting these commissions of like 250, half a million dollars, but also how much are they having to sink into the business as a whole? And that includes themselves.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah. So Frederick says to spend 10% of your commissions on your wardrobe, which is a ton. That's crazy.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're making shocked expressions by the way.

Paulette Perhach:
Shocked emoji faces. And actually Kirsten and I are working on a blog post about her deciding like what is spending and what's investing and it is so funny because when you are on the other side of the illusion, this is something that I struggle with personally, as a writer and as an artist and someone who hopes to deal in truth, but also wants to own a house one day. You know that by creating you can make more money and yet how much of your life do you want to spend in illusion and how much... I know for example, if I buy a bunch of fancy clothes and I pretend like my life is all fine and dandy on Instagram and just take pretty pictures all over the place, then I'll get more followers, I'll make more money, but how far do you want to go from that in a personal way?

Paulette Perhach:
So anyway, that's my artist's side of the thing. But yeah, I know there's a lot of pressure to match that vibe and the fashion vibe of your clients, which is a lot. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of planning and it's a consideration as an investment and I think more and more as my own business owner, I do realize that the face that I present to the world, I want it to be like the best expression of me and the way that I think about it as a business owner is fashion and preparing myself in a way that says, "Hey, I'm in here. This is me. And I'm in here." I want to like dress to celebrate the day. Someone said, "Dressing well as good manners."` And I really liked that phrasing. So there's so many levels to take it. And yeah, I think that when you were selling to people at the highest level of income, there is pressure to look like them and to look like them cost a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
Oh, I agree. I also think it's interesting what of that is a tax deduction and what isn't, when you come to thinking about investing in yourself? I remember a couple of years ago, and if you couldn't tell from my feelings about designing my home, I feel the same way about clothing. I am bad at that. That is just a pain point I know I have. I was never taught how to dress cute fashion is not my thing.

Erin Lowry:
If I could wear athleisure all the time and get away with it socially, I definitely would. But I also realized that's a pain point you can outsource. So a couple of years ago, I hired a stylist to work with to try to learn how to dress to my body.

Erin Lowry:
What kind of brands looked good on me? How to put certain pieces together, working with what I already had in my closet. And what was interesting is because it's for a lot of professional engagements and it was professional clothing, the stylist fee could be a deduction, but the clothing itself could not. So it's always interesting, depending on your job, what you could write off and what you can't. I know people who model, for instance, I think there's certain hair, nail, stuff, type upkeep that they could possibly get a write off on. So I'm curious with luxury real estate, what are the rules for them? What is reasonable right off?

Paulette Perhach:
[crosstalk 00:14:21] have to wear makeup and heels and nice clothes to work, to make more money, that is a cost of doing business and I want to put it on my taxes. I also don't want to be audited.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah, that's a big part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
This last year in 2020, every woman should be able to put makeup on their tax deduction if we're all doing Zoom meetings all the time.

Erin Lowry:
Yes.

Paulette Perhach:
Other people did used to see you in person anyway, I don't know. I think it would be nice. I don't know. That's a whole topic. That's a rabbit hole.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a whole rabbit hole.

Paulette Perhach:
Get out while you can.

Bobbi Rebell:
What else can you share with us that you've learned from working with KJ about the show and maybe the lessons that she's learned? By the way, she's been on the podcast and she should have been there all along and there should be the fact that there's one woman and we have to make a big deal out of it is stupid. There just should be many women and whatever.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah because 64% of realtors are women.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly. But the fact is it is what it is. For now she came into this group of men, she more than held her own. So can we just talk about that dynamic a little bit and the lessons that maybe women can learn when they are suddenly as unjust as it is brought into a group of men?

Paulette Perhach:
Gosh, I think that there's... Kirsten's a powerhouse, but also just a very kind person and does it in this way where she stands in her power in such an inspiring way to me, and knows her value and is honest with people and direct, but doesn't have to come in throwing blows. It's not about anyone else it's about her and how she brings value to the situation.

Paulette Perhach:
It's like a race against herself and it's all an internal thing. It's not me versus the world, is that the sense that I get with her. And just overall watching the show as someone who is a writer who writes artistically and writes for my business, just seeing how much value storytelling has in sales. It's incredible. Every sale is a story. And for me, with writers who I have such a hard time getting my coaching clients to ask for money. Erin and Bobby, you guys have been such a part of my personal journey, learning to ask for money and learning to ask for what I'm worth. And it's just very cool to see that in this ecosystem where a lot of money is being thrown around that writers are an a central part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
And KJ is awesome because she helps moms see that if they want to have it all, they can't do it all and they need to learn to delegate and to outsource and if they want to be working moms, running their own empire. And so she's open about having a writer. She's not out there pretending, "Oh yes, I do. I have eight arms and I'm irony with my foot as I type out my marketing emails," and things like that. She is so transparent in a way that I think is not only an inspiration, but also a model to follow for other realtors.

Erin Lowry:
I also think an interesting part of her narrative is who you marry has a really big impact on your career. Especially for women, particularly those of us in heterosexual relationship dynamics, where it still tends to people defer to men more often than not. She married somebody who's also in the business, but does a different side of the business so that they can collaborate and be collaborators and push each other, but also work together.

Erin Lowry:
And I thought it was really to hear a little insight to boundary setting between the two of them. In the early episode, they talk about one of the listings that he had, that she said "I was too far along in my pregnancy to take it on when it went to market." And that's just a little boundary that you heard gets set with these two people who clearly work together a lot, but don't work for the same company, do different sides in the real estate industry. But on the flip side, she goes to Tyler's open house at the "mansion" location and her husband's there. Her husband's a developer. He can schmooze with the developer that owned the place. They can go up and see the penthouses that aren't listed. It's a very interesting ecosystem that they can create for themselves too, to really both be powerful in their own right, but also be powerful together.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good point. She also puts her kids in the show. She doesn't hide that she is a working mom. Some of the other people on the show have kids as well and we see them with the moms, primarily taking care of the kids, which is interesting. We got to see a lot more of the cast. I know Erin, you didn't watch other seasons of it, but we will see more of their home life because of the pandemic. And so the final money lesson strategy that I wanted to touch on was adapting to the unexpected because the show was filming while this all happened. They started filming before the pandemic and then on from there. And I met KJ through Paulette during the pandemic and I was like, "Wait, what? You're you're filming now? How is that working? You can't even show real estate." So I was truly impressed as I've been seeing the episodes of how they adapted their businesses in literally an impossible environment. They were not allowed. There were robots there. It was awesome and ridiculous at the same time. What do you guys think?

Erin Lowry:
I jumped ahead to a pandemic episode because first it was very jarring and the opening episodes that no one had masks on. I was like, "What? Who's walking around New York city without a mask what's going on here?" And they make it clear that we're backdating before the pandemic now the pandemic hit. So the two things that I found really intriguing: one, is his name Steve?Stephen? The guy who had the luscious hair that he shaved off

Paulette Perhach:
He's a former mode, by the way.

Erin Lowry:
It was said multiple times. I got that and I watched three episodes. So he went out and diversified immediately by getting his license in other states. Because as soon as stuff started fleeing Manhattan going upstate and all that property was getting hot and heavy. He got his license, I think in Massachusetts and Connecticut, in addition to having it in New York so that he could diversify out, which I thought was really interesting. And then also Ryan Serhand deciding to double down on starting his own company and making the comment about, "When others are fleeing, that's when you really need to put the pedal to the metal." As someone who did take some time off in the pandemic, because I was exhausted, it was a very interesting other side argument.

Bobbi Rebell:
You did take time off, but you also had your third seller come out. Let's just everybody of the Broke Millennials series. Okay. Those were great standup moments. Paulette, what were your standout moments?

Paulette Perhach:
I think it reminded me as a business person to just delve down into what is your core value? And accepting whatever comes our way, even though 2020 seemed like the most unacceptable year in the history of the world as we all know it. For example, I was inspired by it's Sia's choreographer did an online dance class. That was the first time that I think I laughed during the pandemic. Then I started an online writing group that meets every morning. And so just seeing how they didn't let themselves spin out all the brokers on the show and there was just a lot of positive self-talk that you could see because it's so tempting to wallow and I find myself there too.

Paulette Perhach:
But it's so much about resilience and grit is catching yourself in those low moments and being like, "Okay, I accept that this is really hard and I'm going to feel bad for myself for the next 30 seconds." And then, "All right, come on. What can we do? What do we have control of?" It felt like our locus of control shrank down to the size of a pea during 2020, but within that tiny, tiny circle, it's like, "What can I do? And how can I still help people and be of service even during this time when everything changes?" I think as the faster you can get yourself out of that cycle, the more powerful you can be as a business person.

Erin Lowry:
I was going to say, the other thing that I liked seeing, and I didn't get a whole lot of the pandemic episodes, but there were moments of celebrating small wins and I felt on both a personal front and a professional front. And that is a take away I think all of us need to have coming out of the pandemic is just taking moments of celebrating, even if it's something little or that you are deciding as little, celebrate it, be excited about it. Not everything has to be like, "I just sold a $30 million house and got a bonkers commission." Sometimes it can just be the little things that make you feel really good too.

Bobbi Rebell:
I totally agree and I also liked seeing the adaptability of not just the stars of the show, but also their clients and the realness of it, because some of it was to balance out your happy celebration moments, just the genuine sadness of a life that had to change. There's a woman on there who put her heart and soul and a ton of money into decorating her apartment to be basically Palm Beach in New York. It's very, as they like to say "Specific style." I still can't decide if I love it or hate it, but it is very intentional, very overdone to some degree, every little square foot of this apartment is decorated because she intended to spend her life there and for reasons that they don't get into huge details on the show, she has to move to Florida permanently. I was like, "Can't you rent it for a few years?"

Bobbi Rebell:
No. It's very clear this house, this apartment is being sold and she just has such a hard time even getting out of the apartment so that they can show it because she's like, "I need more time with my home." And I think that that reflected this gradual acceptance that we all have had to had at some level of, "Wow, we just have to let some things go that just, we thought were going to happen and the pandemic did change everything and we have to adapt, but it's okay to also be sad and be human." And that story really got to me and it is very much a story as Paulette likes to say.

Paulette Perhach:
It was the morning of the life that she wasn't going to have was clearly what was happening. But flip side, Tyler, who was the broker she was working with in that scene, he has a life coach and you can tell he has a life coach in that scene because he made a comment about, "Our life as a pie and this is just a slice and you're going to Florida and that's just a slice and if you don't like it, you can always come back." And I thought that was such a good way. He clearly was just trying to talk his client down to get her out of the house so he could show this apartment, but he came again with an element of storytelling and also with empathy and compassion. And it wasn't just, "Hey, if you want me to get you the most money GTFO this apartment."

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't know that she cared to get every last dollar out of there. I think she just was coming to terms with this. And it's a very human show in that way, because you do see that even though there's big dollars. They flash the numbers on the screen constantly of what the apartment's asking, what the commission would be and all this stuff. There's still humans in the show. And there's a lot of stories to be told.

Erin Lowry:
I have a question For Paulette. I don't know if you've ever had this conversation with KJ, but how does she feel about just tiny slices of her income flashing on the screen national television?

Paulette Perhach:
We haven't discussed that. She's literally-

Bobbi Rebell:
That would be interesting to know.

Paulette Perhach:
... She's so busy. I would be surprised if she even saw that happened. And it's so funny. A lot of the, they talked about on the Andy Cohen show that a lot of them fast forward through the parts that other people are on. Oh my God. But yeah, they're busy.

Erin Lowry:
So do the housewives.

Bobbi Rebell:
They just watch themselves?

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so narcissistic. Oh my gosh.

Paulette Perhach:
I think the take away is that people who are making that much money are working so hard. And I know in my soul that I will never work as hard as Kirsten. And so it's like, "You want to be this successful. You want to be at this level. This is what it takes." And I look at it and I'm like, "I'm going to take a nap and then let's regroup." it's a fun thing to see. Yes, this is the payoff, but also pay attention to how hard they're working, because you only see 1% of it on the show and it's bananas.

Erin Lowry:
I love that takeaway. And I would couple it with just seeing tiny slices of what they're having to do to try to have some element of self care, or at the very least keep their appearances where they need them to be. How they get the working out in. How they get some of the cosmetology tweaks that are happening and drinking your junk juice, going to acupuncturist, whatever it is that you need to be doing and anytime any of them are in those "self care moments" and I don't know if it's for camera or what happens. They always take calls. That's the other thing they are always on call. There is no off switch on these folks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I love the human element. I love that they, as the show has grown and I think, I don't quite remember, so I could be a little bit off, but I don't think any of the original brokers when it started had families. And so for me as a longtime viewer and fan of the show, I really love seeing how we've traveled through the different seasons and hopefully for many more seasons with KJ and seeing how they've grown, how they've evolved, how they've grown their businesses and how they've grown their families. They come on a lot of these guys as single guys, and now they're all moving into family mode and it's really nice to see. And we've also had Ryan on the show, I should acknowledge as well. He was great. Maybe we'll have him on again in the future. I think that they are all very interesting characters, but also very human to us as they come across. I think Robert does a great job presenting the show and creating storylines.



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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Paulette Perhach:
You want to be this successful? You want to be at this level? This is what it takes. And I look at it and I'm like, "I'm going to take a nap and then let's regroup."

Erin Lowry:
Anytime any of them are in those "self-care moments", they always take calls. They are always on call. There is no off switch on these folks.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome friends to the fifth and final installment of our 2021 Financial Grown-up Summer Watch Party series. Having spent so much time at home in the past year and a half, one thing I've done with my time is, well, watch a ton of TV. And in that time, I have discovered there are a lot of streaming TV gems out there that have some really good money lessons. So I decided to bring on some friends, and discuss and have this summer watch party. So far, we have covered the Ashton Kutcher produced Going From Broke, which is on Crackle. Now I had not known of this network really before, but it is free, so definitely download Crackle or whatever, get to Crackle however you do, on your TV, and check out Going From Broke. It literally had me crying because the people that they have on this show were so good hearted, so well-meaning, and such interesting stories.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's just really well produced. We also talked about the new Netflix series, My Unorthodox Life, featuring entrepreneur Julia Haart, and her family and friends and coworkers. I think this family maybe the next Kardashians, but there was a lot of controversy about the show in the news because of how they presented their former life. There is a lot out there to this. Google it, just trust me. And then also obviously listened to our episode about it, and watch the show, but Google it for the controversy. In our third week of our little Summer Watch series, we got into it with some definite disagreements about whether the money lessons were good lessons, or bad lessons on the Netflix series, Marriage or Mortgage. My co-host, Andy Hill, held his own and we ended up agreeing to disagree. And then last week my husband came on the podcast to discuss and share his take on Jim Belushi's cannabis farm reality TV show on discovery, Growing Belushi, where his family actually had an intervention talking about concerns that the business was taking over his life and he didn't know what he was doing, which is kind of true. If you watch the show, you'll have to see.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sadly though, also we may have been witnessing some of the feelings that led to the recent announcement that Jim Belushi and his wife of 23 years, Jennifer, are splitting up. So we're very sad, and it's interesting. It makes the show all the more compelling to really look at what's going on behind the scenes as, yes, it's a cannabis farm and that's interesting in and of itself, but this is also someone starting a new family business and how it's impacting all of them. All of this to say it's been a great series, and if you have not listened so far, I highly recommend that you check out those episodes. This week, we have a really special show with a take on a show, a reality TV show that I can promise you, you will not hear anywhere else.

Bobbi Rebell:
We cannot possibly do a reality TV series without including a Bravo show, because who really does it better than Bravo, right? So we are going to be discussing Million Dollar Listing New York, MDLNY for the super fans. This is going to be next level because of my guests, and the exclusive information and insights that they bring to the table. Okay. First we have friend of the podcast, Ms. Paulette Perhach. Very famous writer in her own right, here to so many of us because of her F-U fund. But she also has a unique connection to the show that we will share in a moment. And we also have bestselling author, Erin Lowry, also a friend of the podcast, known for her trifecta of books in the Broke Millennial series and so much more, those introductions by the way, ladies do not do justice to all of your accomplishments, but in the interest of keeping the podcast a reasonable length, we will leave it there. Welcome.

Paulette Perhach:
Thanks for having us. I haven't heard trifecta yet. I'm going to start stealing that now.

Bobbi Rebell:
Trifecta. You did.

Paulette Perhach:
I know I did. I just had never thought... I keep saying three-part I'm like, "Ugh, trifecta so much better. Why didn't I wordsmith that?"

Bobbi Rebell:
That? Yeah. A triptych of financial wisdom.

Paulette Perhach:
Well, that's just too advanced. Get your $2 words out of here.

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:05:36] to the art world.

Erin Lowry:
We all come from the art world. Give you a triptych.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Well, we have to get into it because I also want to reveal the secret connection to the show that we all have. But let's briefly describe what the show is for the few people that have not seen it. It's been running for a lot of years, but we're going to focus mainly on the present year because it's really awesome. Million-dollar Listing has us following a glamorous group of New York city, real estate agents, as they jostled to get the big deals. And I always find the title funny guys, because I don't think there's ever been a deal where it was close to even just a million. These are mega deals. This season, thankfully, finally, we had a woman join the cast, which besides being obviously long overdue is also where you come in, Paulette.

Paulette Perhach:
Yes. I work with KJ bringing her power and her incredible spirit into the written word for her. I work as her writer, so it's like I get the KJ live show and she's a powerhouse. She's had an incredible effect on me as a businesswoman, just over the last year, working with her.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right and KJ, I should say is short for Kirsten-Jordan who's wonderful and she has been rising through the ranks of brokers. I don't know how she was not well known before this show because she is phenomenal. And through you Paulette, Erin and I have met her right Erin?

Erin Lowry:
Sure have. It was my first real life Bravo celebrity meeting and can I just say, I'm going to disclaimer this right now. I'm a massive Bravo fan. I watch every version of the real Housewives, but I had never watched a million dollar listings before about 24 hours before recording with this podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get into the show. First of all, each of you ladies general take on the show.

Paulette Perhach:
So I obviously have been watching it. I have it on my calendar when it comes out. I see how hard KJ works behind the scenes and then to see how it's all glammed up and like, "Oh, I'm throwing a party to sellers." And it looks so easy. So it's really fun to see behind the scenes how hard she's working. I find it inspiring. You do have to control your FOMO at like, "I will never have a pool in my New York City apartment." But in the same way that part of my business plan came from watching Shark Tank, I think we could all learn about sales from watching Million Dollar Listing and just get some fabulous decorating ideas that we can try to recreate an Ikea.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
The negotiating and sales tips and how to create a scarcity environment when one doesn't necessarily exist are really impressive takeaways from the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
On almost every episode in almost every deal the brokers come in and I'm shocked that people sometimes allow themselves to be filmed this way, knowing they're going to be basically talked about behind their back and yet on national TV about their bad taste because they come in and they basically swoop in, get rid of their stuff and stage it, which is insulting to the people that own it. To me, that's a mini-lesson about the illusion and going to something I know Paulette is very good at, which is storytelling because they basically take out the owner's story and put in the story of what they think will be worth the most money.

Paulette Perhach:
Or neutral. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:08:56]. They neutralize it.

Paulette Perhach:
So you can envision your own story without it being... That 11 Madison, I think it was, "mansion", that was a 3000 square feet inside 3000 square feet outside. That was so gaudy. It had the gold couch. I was deeply stressed watching this episode and yeah, it made sense, where it was like, "It's better to have it empty than to have this gold couch in here."

Bobbi Rebell:
The that I thought about that episode was when Tyler rented the band, I was like, "Couldn't you have just rented couches for a night instead of a band?"

Paulette Perhach:
Well, that's what Ryan Serhand said. He's like "There's chairs for the musicians, but not chairs for the brokers who are here to help you sell your place. What are young doing?"

Bobbi Rebell:
It also to the point of FOMO, I think that it also helps you see behind the curtain in some ways, even though, I'm interested to see what Paulette says about what really goes on behind the scenes more, but it helps you see that so much of what we buy is a marketing illusion. That when they stage an apartment and we see them remake it in relative to the price inexpensive way, although I'm mortified at what they spend to stage. It can be crazy money to stage these things. They're presenting it so it can sell, but there's nothing under there. Half the time the bed doesn't even have a real mattress. It's not even an actual bed and you can't actually use it. It's all for show.

Erin Lowry:
In context for people about crazy amount of money. We're talking between 70 to $150,000 to stage a lot of these apartments.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is an inconceivable film. If a broker came to me and said that would just walk away.

Erin Lowry:
It's interesting too, on the point of what they have to do to the apartment. And I'm really curious, Paulette for you to speak to what they as sellers have to be doing. The clothing that they have to wear, the hairstyles, they have to have the amount of upkeep of their own appearance. You see on the first episode of the season, Tyler, who I assume is a fairly new addition, maybe it was their last season season.

Bobbi Rebell:
Last season.

Erin Lowry:
He talks about the clothing that he's having to buy the amount of money he's having to put into presentation so that his vibe is matching his desired clientele's vibe. And that's a huge upfront cost. Sure, we're seeing that they're getting these commissions of like 250, half a million dollars, but also how much are they having to sink into the business as a whole? And that includes themselves.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah. So Frederick says to spend 10% of your commissions on your wardrobe, which is a ton. That's crazy.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're making shocked expressions by the way.

Paulette Perhach:
Shocked emoji faces. And actually Kirsten and I are working on a blog post about her deciding like what is spending and what's investing and it is so funny because when you are on the other side of the illusion, this is something that I struggle with personally, as a writer and as an artist and someone who hopes to deal in truth, but also wants to own a house one day. You know that by creating you can make more money and yet how much of your life do you want to spend in illusion and how much... I know for example, if I buy a bunch of fancy clothes and I pretend like my life is all fine and dandy on Instagram and just take pretty pictures all over the place, then I'll get more followers, I'll make more money, but how far do you want to go from that in a personal way?

Paulette Perhach:
So anyway, that's my artist's side of the thing. But yeah, I know there's a lot of pressure to match that vibe and the fashion vibe of your clients, which is a lot. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of planning and it's a consideration as an investment and I think more and more as my own business owner, I do realize that the face that I present to the world, I want it to be like the best expression of me and the way that I think about it as a business owner is fashion and preparing myself in a way that says, "Hey, I'm in here. This is me. And I'm in here." I want to like dress to celebrate the day. Someone said, "Dressing well as good manners."` And I really liked that phrasing. So there's so many levels to take it. And yeah, I think that when you were selling to people at the highest level of income, there is pressure to look like them and to look like them cost a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
Oh, I agree. I also think it's interesting what of that is a tax deduction and what isn't, when you come to thinking about investing in yourself? I remember a couple of years ago, and if you couldn't tell from my feelings about designing my home, I feel the same way about clothing. I am bad at that. That is just a pain point I know I have. I was never taught how to dress cute fashion is not my thing.

Erin Lowry:
If I could wear athleisure all the time and get away with it socially, I definitely would. But I also realized that's a pain point you can outsource. So a couple of years ago, I hired a stylist to work with to try to learn how to dress to my body.

Erin Lowry:
What kind of brands looked good on me? How to put certain pieces together, working with what I already had in my closet. And what was interesting is because it's for a lot of professional engagements and it was professional clothing, the stylist fee could be a deduction, but the clothing itself could not. So it's always interesting, depending on your job, what you could write off and what you can't. I know people who model, for instance, I think there's certain hair, nail, stuff, type upkeep that they could possibly get a write off on. So I'm curious with luxury real estate, what are the rules for them? What is reasonable right off?

Paulette Perhach:
[crosstalk 00:14:21] have to wear makeup and heels and nice clothes to work, to make more money, that is a cost of doing business and I want to put it on my taxes. I also don't want to be audited.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah, that's a big part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
This last year in 2020, every woman should be able to put makeup on their tax deduction if we're all doing Zoom meetings all the time.

Erin Lowry:
Yes.

Paulette Perhach:
Other people did used to see you in person anyway, I don't know. I think it would be nice. I don't know. That's a whole topic. That's a rabbit hole.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a whole rabbit hole.

Paulette Perhach:
Get out while you can.

Bobbi Rebell:
What else can you share with us that you've learned from working with KJ about the show and maybe the lessons that she's learned? By the way, she's been on the podcast and she should have been there all along and there should be the fact that there's one woman and we have to make a big deal out of it is stupid. There just should be many women and whatever.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah because 64% of realtors are women.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly. But the fact is it is what it is. For now she came into this group of men, she more than held her own. So can we just talk about that dynamic a little bit and the lessons that maybe women can learn when they are suddenly as unjust as it is brought into a group of men?

Paulette Perhach:
Gosh, I think that there's... Kirsten's a powerhouse, but also just a very kind person and does it in this way where she stands in her power in such an inspiring way to me, and knows her value and is honest with people and direct, but doesn't have to come in throwing blows. It's not about anyone else it's about her and how she brings value to the situation.

Paulette Perhach:
It's like a race against herself and it's all an internal thing. It's not me versus the world, is that the sense that I get with her. And just overall watching the show as someone who is a writer who writes artistically and writes for my business, just seeing how much value storytelling has in sales. It's incredible. Every sale is a story. And for me, with writers who I have such a hard time getting my coaching clients to ask for money. Erin and Bobby, you guys have been such a part of my personal journey, learning to ask for money and learning to ask for what I'm worth. And it's just very cool to see that in this ecosystem where a lot of money is being thrown around that writers are an a central part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
And KJ is awesome because she helps moms see that if they want to have it all, they can't do it all and they need to learn to delegate and to outsource and if they want to be working moms, running their own empire. And so she's open about having a writer. She's not out there pretending, "Oh yes, I do. I have eight arms and I'm irony with my foot as I type out my marketing emails," and things like that. She is so transparent in a way that I think is not only an inspiration, but also a model to follow for other realtors.

Erin Lowry:
I also think an interesting part of her narrative is who you marry has a really big impact on your career. Especially for women, particularly those of us in heterosexual relationship dynamics, where it still tends to people defer to men more often than not. She married somebody who's also in the business, but does a different side of the business so that they can collaborate and be collaborators and push each other, but also work together.

Erin Lowry:
And I thought it was really to hear a little insight to boundary setting between the two of them. In the early episode, they talk about one of the listings that he had, that she said "I was too far along in my pregnancy to take it on when it went to market." And that's just a little boundary that you heard gets set with these two people who clearly work together a lot, but don't work for the same company, do different sides in the real estate industry. But on the flip side, she goes to Tyler's open house at the "mansion" location and her husband's there. Her husband's a developer. He can schmooze with the developer that owned the place. They can go up and see the penthouses that aren't listed. It's a very interesting ecosystem that they can create for themselves too, to really both be powerful in their own right, but also be powerful together.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good point. She also puts her kids in the show. She doesn't hide that she is a working mom. Some of the other people on the show have kids as well and we see them with the moms, primarily taking care of the kids, which is interesting. We got to see a lot more of the cast. I know Erin, you didn't watch other seasons of it, but we will see more of their home life because of the pandemic. And so the final money lesson strategy that I wanted to touch on was adapting to the unexpected because the show was filming while this all happened. They started filming before the pandemic and then on from there. And I met KJ through Paulette during the pandemic and I was like, "Wait, what? You're you're filming now? How is that working? You can't even show real estate." So I was truly impressed as I've been seeing the episodes of how they adapted their businesses in literally an impossible environment. They were not allowed. There were robots there. It was awesome and ridiculous at the same time. What do you guys think?

Erin Lowry:
I jumped ahead to a pandemic episode because first it was very jarring and the opening episodes that no one had masks on. I was like, "What? Who's walking around New York city without a mask what's going on here?" And they make it clear that we're backdating before the pandemic now the pandemic hit. So the two things that I found really intriguing: one, is his name Steve?Stephen? The guy who had the luscious hair that he shaved off

Paulette Perhach:
He's a former mode, by the way.

Erin Lowry:
It was said multiple times. I got that and I watched three episodes. So he went out and diversified immediately by getting his license in other states. Because as soon as stuff started fleeing Manhattan going upstate and all that property was getting hot and heavy. He got his license, I think in Massachusetts and Connecticut, in addition to having it in New York so that he could diversify out, which I thought was really interesting. And then also Ryan Serhand deciding to double down on starting his own company and making the comment about, "When others are fleeing, that's when you really need to put the pedal to the metal." As someone who did take some time off in the pandemic, because I was exhausted, it was a very interesting other side argument.

Bobbi Rebell:
You did take time off, but you also had your third seller come out. Let's just everybody of the Broke Millennials series. Okay. Those were great standup moments. Paulette, what were your standout moments?

Paulette Perhach:
I think it reminded me as a business person to just delve down into what is your core value? And accepting whatever comes our way, even though 2020 seemed like the most unacceptable year in the history of the world as we all know it. For example, I was inspired by it's Sia's choreographer did an online dance class. That was the first time that I think I laughed during the pandemic. Then I started an online writing group that meets every morning. And so just seeing how they didn't let themselves spin out all the brokers on the show and there was just a lot of positive self-talk that you could see because it's so tempting to wallow and I find myself there too.

Paulette Perhach:
But it's so much about resilience and grit is catching yourself in those low moments and being like, "Okay, I accept that this is really hard and I'm going to feel bad for myself for the next 30 seconds." And then, "All right, come on. What can we do? What do we have control of?" It felt like our locus of control shrank down to the size of a pea during 2020, but within that tiny, tiny circle, it's like, "What can I do? And how can I still help people and be of service even during this time when everything changes?" I think as the faster you can get yourself out of that cycle, the more powerful you can be as a business person.

Erin Lowry:
I was going to say, the other thing that I liked seeing, and I didn't get a whole lot of the pandemic episodes, but there were moments of celebrating small wins and I felt on both a personal front and a professional front. And that is a take away I think all of us need to have coming out of the pandemic is just taking moments of celebrating, even if it's something little or that you are deciding as little, celebrate it, be excited about it. Not everything has to be like, "I just sold a $30 million house and got a bonkers commission." Sometimes it can just be the little things that make you feel really good too.

Bobbi Rebell:
I totally agree and I also liked seeing the adaptability of not just the stars of the show, but also their clients and the realness of it, because some of it was to balance out your happy celebration moments, just the genuine sadness of a life that had to change. There's a woman on there who put her heart and soul and a ton of money into decorating her apartment to be basically Palm Beach in New York. It's very, as they like to say "Specific style." I still can't decide if I love it or hate it, but it is very intentional, very overdone to some degree, every little square foot of this apartment is decorated because she intended to spend her life there and for reasons that they don't get into huge details on the show, she has to move to Florida permanently. I was like, "Can't you rent it for a few years?"

Bobbi Rebell:
No. It's very clear this house, this apartment is being sold and she just has such a hard time even getting out of the apartment so that they can show it because she's like, "I need more time with my home." And I think that that reflected this gradual acceptance that we all have had to had at some level of, "Wow, we just have to let some things go that just, we thought were going to happen and the pandemic did change everything and we have to adapt, but it's okay to also be sad and be human." And that story really got to me and it is very much a story as Paulette likes to say.

Paulette Perhach:
It was the morning of the life that she wasn't going to have was clearly what was happening. But flip side, Tyler, who was the broker she was working with in that scene, he has a life coach and you can tell he has a life coach in that scene because he made a comment about, "Our life as a pie and this is just a slice and you're going to Florida and that's just a slice and if you don't like it, you can always come back." And I thought that was such a good way. He clearly was just trying to talk his client down to get her out of the house so he could show this apartment, but he came again with an element of storytelling and also with empathy and compassion. And it wasn't just, "Hey, if you want me to get you the most money GTFO this apartment."

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't know that she cared to get every last dollar out of there. I think she just was coming to terms with this. And it's a very human show in that way, because you do see that even though there's big dollars. They flash the numbers on the screen constantly of what the apartment's asking, what the commission would be and all this stuff. There's still humans in the show. And there's a lot of stories to be told.

Erin Lowry:
I have a question For Paulette. I don't know if you've ever had this conversation with KJ, but how does she feel about just tiny slices of her income flashing on the screen national television?

Paulette Perhach:
We haven't discussed that. She's literally-

Bobbi Rebell:
That would be interesting to know.

Paulette Perhach:
... She's so busy. I would be surprised if she even saw that happened. And it's so funny. A lot of the, they talked about on the Andy Cohen show that a lot of them fast forward through the parts that other people are on. Oh my God. But yeah, they're busy.

Erin Lowry:
So do the housewives.

Bobbi Rebell:
They just watch themselves?

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so narcissistic. Oh my gosh.

Paulette Perhach:
I think the take away is that people who are making that much money are working so hard. And I know in my soul that I will never work as hard as Kirsten. And so it's like, "You want to be this successful. You want to be at this level. This is what it takes." And I look at it and I'm like, "I'm going to take a nap and then let's regroup." it's a fun thing to see. Yes, this is the payoff, but also pay attention to how hard they're working, because you only see 1% of it on the show and it's bananas.

Erin Lowry:
I love that takeaway. And I would couple it with just seeing tiny slices of what they're having to do to try to have some element of self care, or at the very least keep their appearances where they need them to be. How they get the working out in. How they get some of the cosmetology tweaks that are happening and drinking your junk juice, going to acupuncturist, whatever it is that you need to be doing and anytime any of them are in those "self care moments" and I don't know if it's for camera or what happens. They always take calls. That's the other thing they are always on call. There is no off switch on these folks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I love the human element. I love that they, as the show has grown and I think, I don't quite remember, so I could be a little bit off, but I don't think any of the original brokers when it started had families. And so for me as a longtime viewer and fan of the show, I really love seeing how we've traveled through the different seasons and hopefully for many more seasons with KJ and seeing how they've grown, how they've evolved, how they've grown their businesses and how they've grown their families. They come on a lot of these guys as single guys, and now they're all moving into family mode and it's really nice to see. And we've also had Ryan on the show, I should acknowledge as well. He was great. Maybe we'll have him on again in the future. I think that they are all very interesting characters, but also very human to us as they come across. I think Robert does a great job presenting the show and creating storylines.

Erin Lowry:
The Bravo editors are unmatched, in my opinion, in terms of editing reality content. To a dash, Netflix is starting to do some really solid reality content, but Bravo really created the mold that everyone is just trying to match at this point.

Bobbi Rebell:
Agreed. All right. Thank you so much, Paulette, where can people catch up with you?

Paulette Perhach:
You can follow me on Twitter at @pauletperhach And I also blog about storytelling and writing and business at welcometothewriterslife.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wonderful. And you also, by the way, have a growing business supporting writers.

Paulette Perhach:
Yes. So I'm a writing coach and working on creating a program called the PMSA, the profitable MFA, where I help writers lead a profitable and satisfying writer's life.

Bobbi Rebell:
All good stuff, Erin, my friend, what are you up to these days? And where can people be in touch with you?

Erin Lowry:
You can find me most actively on Instagram @brokemillennialblog on Twitter @brokemillennial. The website is brokemillennial.com. The books, all three of them are available. Wherever books are sold and also hopefully your local library.

Bobbi Rebell:
Definitely your local library. We're all an advocate for borrowing books and supporting your library. And by the way, that doesn't mean you can't tell your library to buy the books of your favorite author and in that way financially support your favorite author. That was my PSA. All right. Thanks everyone for listening. Do not forget if you enjoy the show too. Please tell your friends and share on social and tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1.

Bobbi Rebell:
For show notes, a full transcript of this show add more, go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and just look for the podcast dropdown menu. Thank you for listening everyone. And thank you, Erin Lowry, Paulette Perhach for helping us all be Financial Grown Up.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Well, you can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my money tips for grown-ups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Summer Watch Party: Growing Belushi feat. Special guest Neil Kaufman

Actor Jim Belushi invites viewers to his south Oregon Cannabis farm to learn about his latest business ventures and his passion for the plant’s medicinal healing powers. Bobbi and her husband Neil share why they were mesmerized by this edu-tainment offering from Discovery +. 

Summer-Watch-Party-Growing-Belushi-Instagram-with-Neil-Kaufman .png

A Little About The Show

Well, I got to tell you for those of you that love Breaking Bad and you love Narcos and Ozark, this will round out your drug genre TV addiction. Growing Belushi stars... He's a favorite actor of mine, Jim Belushi. He invites us into his adventures on his cannabis farm in Eagle Point, Oregon on the banks of the roaring Rogue River. We see him learning on the fly, and sometimes through some hard challenges and failures, about farming and general business operations. And he gets into some difficult situations and he learned some pretty harsh lessons about how much, maybe how not so much his brand or his fame is worth when it comes to selling his cannabis. We get front row seats, and we watch him and his family build their business and bring their products to market, which includes several strains like Captain Jack and the Blues Brothers cannabis brand to dispensary shelves. We also get cannabis one-on-one lessons along the way, which I think they're fascinating.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So Jim Belushi, who I think is a good actor, but I'm not a super fan like Neil, but I know who he is. So he refers to himself, he refers to the show, I should say, as edutainment, because during each episode there's sort of these breakouts, kind of like the in the moments that you see on reality shows where he speaks directly to the audience about the cannabis industry and exactly how things work, how things work in the business, but also about the plant and that he's very passionate about the medicinal value of cannabis.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also get, of course, some guest appearances from his celebrity friends, including Dan Akroyd, and that is, of course, giving the show a lot of social media buzz. Their Instagram handle, by the way, @belushisfarm is getting close to a hundred thousand followers as of this recording.

Bobbi Rebell:
So interesting, it's not really a side hustle because it's a real business. I mean, to the point where one of my favorite scenes, there's an intervention and his kid is like, "I'm worried about this business, Dad, because I'm worried"... Not because he's worried about him. He's worried about his inheritance.


Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So, Neil, what is your gut reaction to the show?

Neil Kaufman:
I liked it. I really liked it. It's like watching the profit meets the undercover boss.

Bobbi Rebell:
How many times have you watched it, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
I've seen every episode out there so far, and I've watched them twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
At least twice.

Neil Kaufman:
At least twice so far. I mean, I've only been into it for the last couple of weeks. You got to give me some time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Well, then I fall asleep during all the shows when I watch it for like the second half, you get a lot of half rewatching as I finished the episode I fell asleep during, which is not an insult to the show. That's actually a compliment to the show that I go back to watching it. I just fall asleep during all this stuff. We know that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So you liked it.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you like about it?

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, funny or not funny, it's kind of interesting. I mean, he has the basic problems that we all face, personnel and HR issues. He's got operational issues. I remember in one episode he killed the entire crop because he clearly lacked a little bit of training in how to raise these plants, well, how much sunlight, how much water and he's learning on the fly. What is value? What's market and brand pricing? He's trying to figure out a pricing plan. And there's also local compliance issue. I remember one episode he had to go and test the THC content and his business, it's very tangible. I think it's very relatable to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. This is sort of a millennial moment. There's a point where he has two family members that are millennial. Well, actually I shouldn't pick on millennials. I'm not going to say what generation they are. They might be Gen Z. We don't know, but they are exhibiting stereotypical behaviors of what people perceive millennials as doing, as in like maybe they feel like they need to do something else one day, instead of working, just because they need to have, what would you call it, just a wellness day? What was going on there?

Neil Kaufman:
They were lazy. I think they were slagging off. I mean-

Bobbi Rebell:
Spoken as a Gen X boss, yes.

Neil Kaufman:
That's what I see it as. I mean, personally I would have implemented a fair and balanced staff performance evaluation and maybe an incentive-based bonus plan over there, or...

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, he doesn't have that kind of structure at this point yet. Well, like he goes to sell it and he thinks because he's Jim Belushi, he can sell it for how many times what the product... I mean he just assigned a random value based on his name, which I thought it was very endearing, frankly. I mean, he really played it for laughs so we don't know. Of course, it's a reality show that's somewhat structured. So we don't really know how much is legit and how much is sort of creating storylines, but it was a definite reality check, pun intended, for Mr. Belushi. That just because he's famous doesn't mean people will pay 10 times as much for his product. They'll pay a little more, but maybe not as much more as he thought.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah. You know, the market is what it is. He's got to differentiate that brand in the marketplace. And I think if he wants to get a little bit higher price, he's got to show a little bit, maybe higher quality. You know, I take it back to like an analogy back to even Walter White's Blue Magic, it had to prove itself in the marketplace before it got market demand.

Bobbi Rebell:
That was a Breaking Bad reference, for anyone that didn't catch that.

Neil Kaufman:
Oh, I'm sorry. I should have referenced that right from the get-go. But I mean the point being, I mean, if you're going to sell something that's commoditized, you have to differentiate in some way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about the licensing thing, what do you think about that? So there's a whole bit going back to the idea of the money tips and the business lessons from this, there is a storyline that involves him licensing the Blues Brothers brand, which it was not his brand. It was his older brother's brand with Dan Akroyd.

Neil Kaufman:
It's fair, but I think it was actually really, really smart business sense on his behalf. It takes companies so long and they spend years developing and cultivating their brands. And here he is latching onto a brand, using it as an accelerator to the market, I think it was really a smart move on his behalf.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and also it wasn't just handed to him.

Neil Kaufman:
No doubt, but I think that he's been performing with that band for sometime now, stepping in almost like John Goodman steps in every now and then on the Blues Brothers to perform with them. He's part of that. I think it's a whole brand, which he is already a part of.

Bobbi Rebell:
He goes to South America, obsessed with finding the perfect seeds. What do you think?

Neil Kaufman:
Oh my god. I got to tell you, I cringed a little bit of that because it was painful to watch. Not painful to watch because it was... He finds the seeds, he loses the seeds, and he has to find the seeds again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, no. His employee lost the seeds.

Neil Kaufman:
Well, he has to own that. It's his responsibility. It's his company, so he lost the seeds.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, that's a thing. So when you have a company, you hire employees to do things. When the employees don't do their job, ultimately cost the company, right?

Neil Kaufman:
I thought that was a good lesson there. But it was kind of overshadowed by his constant obsession over Pablo Escobar.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which, of course, got us into watching Narcos-

Neil Kaufman:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
... which we're now watching.

Neil Kaufman:
I think if he was going to look for a marijuana mogul, if you want to call it that, there's one closer to shore. You've got people like Martha Stewart, who's got a cannabis brand with Snoop Dogg these days.

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, that's how mainstream this stuff has become. Martha can get you high with her products in the morning, and then she can feed your munchies at night with her moist oatmeal cookies to satisfy all your cravings. And by the way, I have to add in it's a genius vertical market product integration. She's got you getting high and then filling the food crave at the end. It's genius.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So what do you see as the big money lessons, the big business lessons? For those of you who don't know, you are a consultant for a living, so you advise people on how to improve their businesses, broadly speaking. That's a way big generalization of what you do, but what would your advice be to Mr. Belushi?

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, I gave Neil some questions in advance. This is an on-the-fly question. Let's see how Neil does.

Neil Kaufman:
I have to tell you the one big takeaway I got from looking at the nephew and the other relatives that work there is I think there's a big lesson there, which is never go into business with close friends and family. I think it's just too hard to draw lines, clear lines sometimes. Emotions blur those lines, the logical ones. He knows that this nephew of his is a terrible employee, but he's going to keep him because he's got an emotional attachment. So I think one life lesson here, one huge economic lesson, don't go to business with close friends, because otherwise you can't make those logical decisions.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, do you think that he had a business plan going into this with actual projections of things? I mean, he was way off on pricing of his products, way off.

Neil Kaufman:
I don't know if that was shtick, though, for the camera or really it was just-

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe.

Neil Kaufman:
It may have been. But I think overall I have to give the guy, I would say out of the gate from a business perspective, I think I'd give them a B minus. I think he's up there right out of the gate for being new to this space. He has a growing facility, he's in compliance with local laws and regulations. And he has a backup plan when the first crop went poor, and he's diversifying in products like edibles and vapes and the buds. I think he's doing really well for right out of the gate.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, obviously, having a reality TV show is amazing publicity and if they, well, I should say they renewed it. I think we said that earlier, they did renew it for a second season. So clearly that part is going well, and if you go to their website, you will see they have merch for sale. In that sense, he's got a business plan.

Bobbi Rebell:
What would you do differently if you were there, if you were his business partner?

Neil Kaufman:
I think in advance, I mean, performing some sort of assessment of the types of issues that would come up. Whether or not they're the compliance issues or the strategic pricing issues, I would have put together at least a plan around all of that in advance, kind of architect in advance the issues that he seems to have learned only by mistake along the way. It seems to be he's learning as he's going, as opposed to have planned in advance. It seems to be that he's not executing that plan. He's actually just kind of doing it ad hoc.

Bobbi Rebell:
Next season, we're going to see him putting the product into food. So given that, where do you think he should go with that?

Neil Kaufman:
I like to see him doing some integration, I think, with distributors. So maybe to Whole Foods, those type of organizations that carry CBD products today. I'd like to see how he's going to start almost like a Coca-Cola or anybody else who is bringing a consumer product to market. I like to understand how he's going to be partnering with strategic alliances, like grocery stores, not just dispensaries, but how is he actually getting product broader reach?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I was curious to see, the show is, obviously, focused on just his farm, but this is such a blooming business that I was curious to see who were his rivals out there and to see if there's any sort of gathering of them. There's like a convention for people that are starting up farms and see how he fits in to the industry because I know there's a lot of celebrities that are out there. You mentioned Martha Stewart, but it's definitely something that's very popular, so I'm curious to hear a little bit broader view of the industry.

Bobbi Rebell:
Final takeaway, my love.

Neil Kaufman:
Versatility, agility, flexibility. He's an actor. Look what he's doing right now. I mean, he's becoming a mogul in cannabis production. I think the lesson for everybody is every few years you have to reinvent yourself. I mean, what's state-of-the-art today will be aged years from now? They say that the average turn on technology is every two years now. So I think he's demonstrating someone who's thinking outside the box and doing things that he's never done before, which I think is phenomenal. We should all learn from that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I, literally, agree with everything you just said. I'm just going to say gold star for Neil being an amazing guest.


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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough.

Bobbi Rebell:
I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees and, seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Neil Kaufman:
For those of you that love Breaking Bad, and you love Narcos and Ozark, this will round out your drug genre TV addiction.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard, but together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, my grown-up friends, to the latest installment of our 2021 Financial Grownup Summer Watch Party Series. Okay. You guys know the deal. During COVID, all of us, frankly, not just me, we all had a chance to check out a lot of streaming shows, probably way too many, but there's a lot of undiscovered gems out there that have some really good money lessons. So we are having a Summer Watch Party highlighting some of my personal favorites and some new buzz-worthy shows and, of course, the money tips that we learn from those shows.

Bobbi Rebell:
Joining me for this episode is a guest I have been trying to get on this podcast since it began, the love of my life and someone I spend way too much time watching streaming TV shows with, Mr. Neil Kaufman, my husband, guys. Welcome, Neil.

Neil Kaufman:
Thank you, Bobbi. I am so excited about this episode tonight. I'm so excited.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes. Well, I'm so impressed because you haven't been on yet. It's been a few years, and you have asked frequently, and I was a little afraid you wouldn't do your homework, but you have piles of paper there. You're actually worried about all the rustling papers because you did your homework today. So everyone's in for a real treat because Neil is taking this very seriously.

Neil Kaufman:
I have OCD. For the listeners, I have OCD, and so I obsess over everything.

Bobbi Rebell:
In the best way, though, in the best way, and we're definitely going to get the dirt on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
So this week's show, I made a pun, Neil, because I said dirt, and we're going to talk about farm, get it? It's Growing Belushi, which is a reality TV show on Discovery Plus. It's only a three-episode season so that's definitely something we can all manage to drop in August of 2020. We only discovered this very recently, but it was renewed for a second season already. As is always the case, I got to warn you guys, there are going to be some spoilers here, but it's so worth it. So stay with us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Neil, tell us a little bit about the show.

Neil Kaufman:
Well, I got to tell you for those of you that love Breaking Bad and you love Narcos and Ozark, this will round out your drug genre TV addiction. Growing Belushi stars... He's a favorite actor of mine, Jim Belushi. He invites us into his adventures on his cannabis farm in Eagle Point, Oregon on the banks of the roaring Rogue River. We see him learning on the fly, and sometimes through some hard challenges and failures, about farming and general business operations. And he gets into some difficult situations and he learned some pretty harsh lessons about how much, maybe how not so much his brand or his fame is worth when it comes to selling his cannabis. We get front row seats, and we watch him and his family build their business and bring their products to market, which includes several strains like Captain Jack and the Blues Brothers cannabis brand to dispensary shelves. We also get cannabis one-on-one lessons along the way, which I think they're fascinating.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So Jim Belushi, who I think is a good actor, but I'm not a super fan like Neil, but I know who he is. So he refers to himself, he refers to the show, I should say, as edutainment, because during each episode there's sort of these breakouts, kind of like the in the moments that you see on reality shows where he speaks directly to the audience about the cannabis industry and exactly how things work, how things work in the business, but also about the plant and that he's very passionate about the medicinal value of cannabis.

Bobbi Rebell:
We also get, of course, some guest appearances from his celebrity friends, including Dan Akroyd, and that is, of course, giving the show a lot of social media buzz. Their Instagram handle, by the way, @belushisfarm is getting close to a hundred thousand followers as of this recording.

Bobbi Rebell:
So interesting, it's not really a side hustle because it's a real business. I mean, to the point where one of my favorite scenes, there's an intervention and his kid is like, "I'm worried about this business, Dad, because I'm worried"... Not because he's worried about him. He's worried about his inheritance.

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So, Neil, what is your gut reaction to the show?

Neil Kaufman:
I liked it. I really liked it. It's like watching the profit meets the undercover boss.

Bobbi Rebell:
How many times have you watched it, Neil?

Neil Kaufman:
I've seen every episode out there so far, and I've watched them twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
At least twice.

Neil Kaufman:
At least twice so far. I mean, I've only been into it for the last couple of weeks. You got to give me some time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Well, then I fall asleep during all the shows when I watch it for like the second half, you get a lot of half rewatching as I finished the episode I fell asleep during, which is not an insult to the show. That's actually a compliment to the show that I go back to watching it. I just fall asleep during all this stuff. We know that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Anyway. So you liked it.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you like about it?

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, funny or not funny, it's kind of interesting. I mean, he has the basic problems that we all face, personnel and HR issues. He's got operational issues. I remember in one episode he killed the entire crop because he clearly lacked a little bit of training in how to raise these plants, well, how much sunlight, how much water and he's learning on the fly. What is value? What's market and brand pricing? He's trying to figure out a pricing plan. And there's also local compliance issue. I remember one episode he had to go and test the THC content and his business, it's very tangible. I think it's very relatable to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. This is sort of a millennial moment. There's a point where he has two family members that are millennial. Well, actually I shouldn't pick on millennials. I'm not going to say what generation they are. They might be Gen Z. We don't know, but they are exhibiting stereotypical behaviors of what people perceive millennials as doing, as in like maybe they feel like they need to do something else one day, instead of working, just because they need to have, what would you call it, just a wellness day? What was going on there?

Neil Kaufman:
They were lazy. I think they were slagging off. I mean-

Bobbi Rebell:
Spoken as a Gen X boss, yes.

Neil Kaufman:
That's what I see it as. I mean, personally I would have implemented a fair and balanced staff performance evaluation and maybe an incentive-based bonus plan over there, or...

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, he doesn't have that kind of structure at this point yet. Well, like he goes to sell it and he thinks because he's Jim Belushi, he can sell it for how many times what the product... I mean he just assigned a random value based on his name, which I thought it was very endearing, frankly. I mean, he really played it for laughs so we don't know. Of course, it's a reality show that's somewhat structured. So we don't really know how much is legit and how much is sort of creating storylines, but it was a definite reality check, pun intended, for Mr. Belushi. That just because he's famous doesn't mean people will pay 10 times as much for his product. They'll pay a little more, but maybe not as much more as he thought.

Neil Kaufman:
Yeah. You know, the market is what it is. He's got to differentiate that brand in the marketplace. And I think if he wants to get a little bit higher price, he's got to show a little bit, maybe higher quality. You know, I take it back to like an analogy back to even Walter White's Blue Magic, it had to prove itself in the marketplace before it got market demand.

Bobbi Rebell:
That was a Breaking Bad reference, for anyone that didn't catch that.

Neil Kaufman:
Oh, I'm sorry. I should have referenced that right from the get-go. But I mean the point being, I mean, if you're going to sell something that's commoditized, you have to differentiate in some way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about the licensing thing, what do you think about that? So there's a whole bit going back to the idea of the money tips and the business lessons from this, there is a storyline that involves him licensing the Blues Brothers brand, which it was not his brand. It was his older brother's brand with Dan Akroyd.

Neil Kaufman:
It's fair, but I think it was actually really, really smart business sense on his behalf. It takes companies so long and they spend years developing and cultivating their brands. And here he is latching onto a brand, using it as an accelerator to the market, I think it was really a smart move on his behalf.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and also it wasn't just handed to him.

Neil Kaufman:
No doubt, but I think that he's been performing with that band for sometime now, stepping in almost like John Goodman steps in every now and then on the Blues Brothers to perform with them. He's part of that. I think it's a whole brand, which he is already a part of.

Bobbi Rebell:
He goes to South America, obsessed with finding the perfect seeds. What do you think?

Neil Kaufman:
Oh my god. I got to tell you, I cringed a little bit of that because it was painful to watch. Not painful to watch because it was... He finds the seeds, he loses the seeds, and he has to find the seeds again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, no. His employee lost the seeds.

Neil Kaufman:
Well, he has to own that. It's his responsibility. It's his company, so he lost the seeds.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, that's a thing. So when you have a company, you hire employees to do things. When the employees don't do their job, ultimately cost the company, right?

Neil Kaufman:
I thought that was a good lesson there. But it was kind of overshadowed by his constant obsession over Pablo Escobar.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which, of course, got us into watching Narcos-

Neil Kaufman:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
... which we're now watching.

Neil Kaufman:
I think if he was going to look for a marijuana mogul, if you want to call it that, there's one closer to shore. You've got people like Martha Stewart, who's got a cannabis brand with Snoop Dogg these days.

Neil Kaufman:
I mean, that's how mainstream this stuff has become. Martha can get you high with her products in the morning, and then she can feed your munchies at night with her moist oatmeal cookies to satisfy all your cravings. And by the way, I have to add in it's a genius vertical market product integration. She's got you getting high and then filling the food crave at the end. It's genius.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So what do you see as the big money lessons, the big business lessons? For those of you who don't know, you are a consultant for a living, so you advise people on how to improve their businesses, broadly speaking. That's a way big generalization of what you do, but what would your advice be to Mr. Belushi?

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, I gave Neil some questions in advance. This is an on-the-fly question. Let's see how Neil does.

Neil Kaufman:
I have to tell you the one big takeaway I got from looking at the nephew and the other relatives that work there is I think there's a big lesson there, which is never go into business with close friends and family. I think it's just too hard to draw lines, clear lines sometimes. Emotions blur those lines, the logical ones. He knows that this nephew of his is a terrible employee, but he's going to keep him because he's got an emotional attachment. So I think one life lesson here, one huge economic lesson, don't go to business with close friends, because otherwise you can't make those logical decisions.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, do you think that he had a business plan going into this with actual projections of things? I mean, he was way off on pricing of his products, way off.

Neil Kaufman:
I don't know if that was shtick, though, for the camera or really it was just-

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe.

Neil Kaufman:
It may have been. But I think overall I have to give the guy, I would say out of the gate from a business perspective, I think I'd give them a B minus. I think he's up there right out of the gate for being new to this space. He has a growing facility, he's in compliance with local laws and regulations. And he has a backup plan when the first crop went poor, and he's diversifying in products like edibles and vapes and the buds. I think he's doing really well for right out of the gate.

Bobbi Rebell:
And, obviously, having a reality TV show is amazing publicity and if they, well, I should say they renewed it. I think we said that earlier, they did renew it for a second season. So clearly that part is going well, and if you go to their website, you will see they have merch for sale. In that sense, he's got a business plan.

Bobbi Rebell:
What would you do differently if you were there, if you were his business partner?

Neil Kaufman:
I think in advance, I mean, performing some sort of assessment of the types of issues that would come up. Whether or not they're the compliance issues or the strategic pricing issues, I would have put together at least a plan around all of that in advance, kind of architect in advance the issues that he seems to have learned only by mistake along the way. It seems to be he's learning as he's going, as opposed to have planned in advance. It seems to be that he's not executing that plan. He's actually just kind of doing it ad hoc.

Bobbi Rebell:
Next season, we're going to see him putting the product into food. So given that, where do you think he should go with that?

Neil Kaufman:
I like to see him doing some integration, I think, with distributors. So maybe to Whole Foods, those type of organizations that carry CBD products today. I'd like to see how he's going to start almost like a Coca-Cola or anybody else who is bringing a consumer product to market. I like to understand how he's going to be partnering with strategic alliances, like grocery stores, not just dispensaries, but how is he actually getting product broader reach?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I was curious to see, the show is, obviously, focused on just his farm, but this is such a blooming business that I was curious to see who were his rivals out there and to see if there's any sort of gathering of them. There's like a convention for people that are starting up farms and see how he fits in to the industry because I know there's a lot of celebrities that are out there. You mentioned Martha Stewart, but it's definitely something that's very popular, so I'm curious to hear a little bit broader view of the industry.

Bobbi Rebell:
Final takeaway, my love.

Neil Kaufman:
Versatility, agility, flexibility. He's an actor. Look what he's doing right now. I mean, he's becoming a mogul in cannabis production. I think the lesson for everybody is every few years you have to reinvent yourself. I mean, what's state-of-the-art today will be aged years from now? They say that the average turn on technology is every two years now. So I think he's demonstrating someone who's thinking outside the box and doing things that he's never done before, which I think is phenomenal. We should all learn from that.

Bobbi Rebell:
I, literally, agree with everything you just said. I'm just going to say gold star for Neil being an amazing guest. I think that you nailed it and maybe you'll come back again. I don't know. Everyone, write in.

Neil Kaufman:
I would say that if Jim Belushi is listening, I want him to know that I did follow him on Instagram today so he have plus one to the numbers and I'm a big fan, both acting and what he's doing today. I think bravo, kudos to him. I think he's doing phenomenal.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. Like I said, I'm just going to say ditto to that. I love the show. It was totally worth watching. Do not be insulted that I fell asleep, Mr. Belushi, because I do that all the time. But I did wake up and re-watch it over again, which is the ultimate compliment from me, trust me. Definitely worth watching. I can't wait for next season, and maybe we'll reach out to the team over at Growing Belushi and see if we can get him on when the new season comes out. So, come on to the show, Jim.

Neil Kaufman:
I think maybe we should do a product review next time so we should sample and then do a product review. I think that would be appropriate.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We'll figure out what is compliant within the law. I don't know what the law is on that, but maybe we need to take a family field trip to Oregon. I don't know.

Neil Kaufman:
I'm in.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think that might be an order.

Neil Kaufman:
I'm in. I'm in.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Thank you, Neil, love of my life, for joining us.

Bobbi Rebell:
Everyone else, thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please spread the love. Tell a friend. DM me on Insta @bobbirebell1. Let me know if you want Neil back. Let me know if you want us to try to get Jim Belushi on when his second season of Growing Belushi comes on. And, of course, let me know what else you want to hear on the podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you all. Neil, thanks for helping everyone be financial grownups.

Neil Kaufman:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Weil. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Summer Watch Party: Netflix’s Marriage or Mortgage with guest co-host Andy Hill

Marriage Kids and Money’s Andy Hill joins Bobbi to break down the Netflix hit show that challenges couples to choose between the wedding of their dreams, and becoming home owners as they start their life together. 

A Little About The Show

Andy Hill:
So it's a 10 episode series on Netflix, and it follows these couples in Nashville. Then they've got a limited budget. So they've got to choose the mortgage, or they've got to choose the wedding of their dreams. So the mortgage obviously is for their first home or the home that they're going to have together. Most of them have around 30K saved up. And the hosts of the show, as you mentioned, Sarah, she's got the wedding planning, and then Nicole is the real estate agent. So they have a friendly competition about who's going to win over the couple, whether it's the marriage or the mortgage.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, and it's interesting. Most of the couples have somewhere between 25 and $35,000 saved up for this. And that does work out well because the average cost of a wedding pre COVID, which is when this was filmed, and we'll talk about the relevance of that later, was about $34,000. Which of course, I'm in New York so I'm like, oh, that's not so bad. But in the real world, outside of the island of Manhattan, that is a ton of money. All right, Andy, you're the perfect person for this show. You have the marriage, but you don't have a mortgage anymore. So I know you have a lot to say about this show. You've watched a couple episodes, right?

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I watched a couple episodes. I watched the first one where it was a new couple coming in from Florida. And they were deciding whether they want to get married or pay for the wedding or do the house. And then I also watched another episode with an older lesbian couple, that they were going to say, Hey, do we want the big gay wedding, or do we want the big gay house? So it was fun to see different demographics in Nashville trying to figure out their situation. But yeah, overall, I thought it was a very interesting concept. And based on watching it, it was a little downer. Honestly, I feel like you come into it and it's like, okay, you set yourself up for the big hopes of the wedding because you've seen all the movies, or you've seen all your friends do it. Or you've got to get the big house because you've seen all your friends or your family or in the movies do it.

Andy Hill:
And I feel like when we throw that out into society, it's like, here's the things that you have to do, I think that it can be a depressing notion of you're not quite there financially. And it brought back memories for me with both of those situations as well. So I didn't quite have the money for either one of those things. And we got into forcing ourselves financially to do them. So it was kind of a ... I don't know, it's a happy go lucky show, but it made me a little bit sad.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I will say. So there is this reality TV veneer that they sometimes do where everything is presented as positivity. It is interesting because there is that dark undercurrent because they never have a choice of, well, you don't have to do either one.

Andy Hill:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, that's interesting. I joked that you know about the marriage, but not the mortgage anymore. You did pay off your mortgage. What do you think about the idea of what it's saying? That it positions home ownership has this ideal that couples should be striving for. They never really say, well, or you could just, do what you want to do [crosstalk 00:05:49] or whatever.

Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I think there's the nationwide shame around renting. And that's something that I'd like to dispel, especially since ... I'm a homeowner. I love my home and we paid off the mortgage. Yes, it's great. But for my first home ownership experience, I bought with too little down with not an understanding of the general costs of home ownership outside of the mortgage. A lot of these things, a lot of the show is like, Hey, here's the home that you can afford for the mortgage. But then you move in and it's like, I got to furnish that thing. I got to get curtains. Oh, the roof is not in a good situation. I have to ... et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all the things that you didn't know because you are renting, all the things you got to fix because you don't have a landlord anymore. You are the landlord.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's so interesting that you say that because the plot twist for this show actually happened after filming ended in my mind. Because when you first see the title of this show, every single person I've asked, because as I mentioned, I am obsessed with it, has said, who would not choose the house over the wedding? Everyone says, why would you? If you only have 30 grand, of course, you're going to get a house, especially cause some other living situations are less than ideal. They're living with parents or whatever, roommates. The thing is, is that you think when you're watching it, who's not going to choose the mortgage. And I didn't actually do a count, but I'm telling you, I feel like it's at least half chose the wedding.

Andy Hill:
Yeah, it was the majority. Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
And on the surface, people get judgey. And they're like, you would blow 30 grand on four hours? And I asked the ladies, I said, after the pandemic, did people regret the weddings? Especially because some of the weddings were even downsized because they timed out to be the beginning of the pandemic. And they said, no. The regrets, if anything, came from the homeowners, which goes to what you just said. The wedding. Sure, they "blew 30 grand on it." But they had the day of a lifetime. They had a memory, they had their friends and family there, which we talk about how millennials and gen Z, they all want these experiences. Well, that's what the wedding was. The wedding was an experience versus a thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what people forget is that the house does carry future financial responsibilities, positive things too. But it was very interesting talking to the ladies, seeing this afterthought. Do you think that people are too quick to judge stereotypes when they go to these things, where they judge people for spending a lot of money on a huge trip or a wedding or whatever it may be? And we were talking offline. We have a big family event that we're planning that I think we're spending way too much money on, but I also feel like this is what life is, right?

Speaker 3:
Absolutely. If you've saved up the money to purchase something, whether it's a thing or an experience in your life, I think there should be zero shame, and you enjoying what you've worked hard to have. Now, if, Bobby, you're going to take a big, old, personal loan to throw this party and rack up some double-digit interest to do that, then maybe not so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you were the host, let's say you're the moderator, they really didn't have a neutral party. But if you were there hosting it with the ladies, what would your advice to be as a neutral party to these couples?

Speaker 3:
I think that could be fun actually, because the show is supposed to be fun. And it's like, Hey, choose one or the other. And it's like a game show, like you said. It also opens up opportunity for social commentary at the end to be like, okay, Hey, we know that this is not the real world here, everybody. You don't have to do just this or that. There's a lot of other things you can do. I think maybe they should have risen up the conversation around renting. I think they should have risen up the conversation around maybe not having to do an extravagant thing if you can't afford it. And the realities of debt in our country, because those are really serious topics.

Speaker 3:
And since we're playfully talking about a $30,000 choice, which is very difficult for the majority of America, I think it opens up an opportunity to have real conversations. So maybe for the people who are on the show, maybe it's an opportunity for them to talk, get real, get real money talk and say, Hey, this is what it actually ended up being when we decided to go for the wedding. Or now that we've decided to go for the wedding, we have $0 to put down on this house that we're actually really interested. So there is a choice. And I think that it opens up an opportunity for education after the fun, which is important too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. Final thoughts on the show. Are you going to be watching the rest of the episodes now that I've gotten you sucked into it?

Speaker 3:
You know what, Bobby? I'll be honest with you. I will probably not watch any more of them, but I really appreciated you opening it up to me. It's just that's not typically my type of show. I don't really watch a lot of reality TV, but I liked the fact that it hit on both of those buttons, marriage and mortgage because I talk about that all the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, do you feel that it had lessons, maybe things that you already know? I mean, there was a lot of negotiation. I feel there was a lot of priority there. And I would have liked to have heard more about how they got to saving $30,000, which is no small feat.

Speaker 3:
Exactly. And I think that that in itself could teach a lot of people things. What I did like that you're bringing up, I like how they negotiated. I really like how when you come to the end and they make the final decision, here's what I was able to do for you, whether it was for the house or for the wedding venue. I used to work on event planning for 15 years, so I know all of the importance of the costs of events.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, tell us. Give us some insider secrets, Andy.

Speaker 3:
It's very important to not just take the price at face value, which the show hosts did, which was fantastic. What can you do for me? Where can we find some concessions? These people are considering going over these other locations. What can we do to save a little bit of money? Never take the price at face value in anything in life. This is an opportunity for you to negotiate, flex that skill, and go into it being like, Hey, you know what? If we can't get it, it's not going to be the end of the world. There's going to be somewhere else to go. And with that attitude, you're going to save a lot of money with a lot of choices in life, whether it's an event venue or a home or a thing that you want to buy in life. So that was one of my favorite things that the host did and showed the power of negotiation, which I think is really good for everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they did do some budgeting. They did say, for example, the wedding, if you spend this much on the dress ... I mean, there was a lot of humor in there. To me, that's a lot of the watchability. You can see, everyone, I'm trying to get Andy to really watch the rest of these. But I mean, there was a woman that had to have this ranch dressing tower. I mean, it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard, but it was also her enthusiasm was infectious. So you find these characters endearing, even in what we might perceive as silliness. The truth is we all have our thing.

Speaker 3:
Yeah. Well, I like ranch on anything, so I respect that. So pizza, vegetables. So maybe I'll have to watch that episode. I think that's that ...

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe watch that one, and the one with a donut wall.

Speaker 3:
Oh, I like it. I like donuts, and I like ranch. Not together, but I like them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, see? I'm going to win you over. When we're done with this, I'm going to work on getting Andy to watch the rest of the show because these characters are endearing. You are rooting for them. The fact that this pandemic happened and squashed a lot of the ones ... the wedding's dreams, but they still love the weddings. It's like, I love that because the weddings, ultimately, even though they did ... and they put budgets up on the screen, by the way. They do, they show what things are going to cost. They do push people to make choices within the wedding. More so the house, it's a little trickier, but they do do that. So I thought that was also a good financial lesson. So I'm winning you over, Andy.

Speaker 3:
I like it. I'm not knocking your show. I don't normally do reality shows, but [crosstalk 00:12:58] you're a good friend of mine. If you want me to watch an another episode, I will.

Bobbi Rebell:
I recommend it for people that like reality TV.

Check out Sarah and Nichole’s episode here!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over@grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, friends, to our latest installment of our 2021 financial grownup summer watch party series. During COVID, I had a chance to check out some streaming shows and there are a lot of undiscovered gems out there that I think have some really good money lessons. So we're going to have a separate watch party. Actually, we already are. I think this is our third episode highlighting, of course, some of my personal favorites and some new buzzworthy shows. And of course the money tips that we learned from them. And of course, what is a watch party without some good friends? So I am so excited to welcome Andy Hill. He is the host of Marriage, Kids and Money, the podcast, and the growing business empire around it. Welcome, Andy.

Andy Hill:
Thank you, Bobby. I'm so glad to be here and glad to be returning for some more fun with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You have a lot going on as the world opens up, I say optimistically.

Andy Hill:
Yes. Let's keep saying it optimistically, please.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes. Well, I think you're one of the co-hosts of Fin Con this year.

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I'm excited about that. Yeah. Paula Pant and I are going to be co-hosting together in Fin Con in Austin, Texas. And I am pumped about it, to be able to not only do that, but hang out with a bunch of fellow money nerds just like you.

Bobbi Rebell:
In person, so cool. All right.

Andy Hill:
Yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get to this week's show. We're going to be talking about Marriage and Mortgage. I think it's actually called Marriage or Mortgage. I misspoke, so Marriage or Mortgage. It was an obsessive pandemic binge show for me, so much so that I had the stars of the show, Sarah Miller and Nicole Holmes, as guests on an earlier episode of this podcast. And yes, we'll leave a link in the show notes on my website, bobbirebell.com. So you guys can check that one out. I was obsessed. Andy, I had to prompt you to watch this, but you were a good sport. You dove right in. Tell us a little bit about the show.

Andy Hill:
Yeah, so it's a very interesting ... and you were right. It's definitely an or because that's the whole point of the show, right? Marriage or Mortgage. So it's a 10 episode series on Netflix, and it follows these couples in Nashville. Then they've got a limited budget. So they've got to choose the mortgage, or they've got to choose the wedding of their dreams. So the mortgage obviously is for their first home or the home that they're going to have together. Most of them have around 30K saved up. And the hosts of the show, as you mentioned, Sarah, she's got the wedding planning, and then Nicole is the real estate agent. So they have a friendly competition about who's going to win over the couple, whether it's the marriage or the mortgage.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, and it's interesting. Most of the couples have somewhere between 25 and $35,000 saved up for this. And that does work out well because the average cost of a wedding pre COVID, which is when this was filmed, and we'll talk about the relevance of that later, was about $34,000. Which of course, I'm in New York so I'm like, oh, that's not so bad. But in the real world, outside of the island of Manhattan, that is a ton of money. All right, Andy, you're the perfect person for this show. You have the marriage, but you don't have a mortgage anymore. So I know you have a lot to say about this show. You've watched a couple episodes, right?

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I watched a couple episodes. I watched the first one where it was a new couple coming in from Florida. And they were deciding whether they want to get married or pay for the wedding or do the house. And then I also watched another episode with an older lesbian couple, that they were going to say, Hey, do we want the big gay wedding, or do we want the big gay house? So it was fun to see different demographics in Nashville trying to figure out their situation. But yeah, overall, I thought it was a very interesting concept. And based on watching it, it was a little downer. Honestly, I feel like you come into it and it's like, okay, you set yourself up for the big hopes of the wedding because you've seen all the movies, or you've seen all your friends do it. Or you've got to get the big house because you've seen all your friends or your family or in the movies do it.

Andy Hill:
And I feel like when we throw that out into society, it's like, here's the things that you have to do, I think that it can be a depressing notion of you're not quite there financially. And it brought back memories for me with both of those situations as well. So I didn't quite have the money for either one of those things. And we got into forcing ourselves financially to do them. So it was kind of a ... I don't know, it's a happy go lucky show, but it made me a little bit sad.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I will say. So there is this reality TV veneer that they sometimes do where everything is presented as positivity. It is interesting because there is that dark undercurrent because they never have a choice of, well, you don't have to do either one.

Andy Hill:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, that's interesting. I joked that you know about the marriage, but not the mortgage anymore. You did pay off your mortgage. What do you think about the idea of what it's saying? That it positions home ownership has this ideal that couples should be striving for. They never really say, well, or you could just, do what you want to do [crosstalk 00:05:49] or whatever.

Andy Hill:
Yeah. I think there's the nationwide shame around renting. And that's something that I'd like to dispel, especially since ... I'm a homeowner. I love my home and we paid off the mortgage. Yes, it's great. But for my first home ownership experience, I bought with too little down with not an understanding of the general costs of home ownership outside of the mortgage. A lot of these things, a lot of the show is like, Hey, here's the home that you can afford for the mortgage. But then you move in and it's like, I got to furnish that thing. I got to get curtains. Oh, the roof is not in a good situation. I have to ... et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all the things that you didn't know because you are renting, all the things you got to fix because you don't have a landlord anymore. You are the landlord.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's so interesting that you say that because the plot twist for this show actually happened after filming ended in my mind. Because when you first see the title of this show, every single person I've asked, because as I mentioned, I am obsessed with it, has said, who would not choose the house over the wedding? Everyone says, why would you? If you only have 30 grand, of course, you're going to get a house, especially cause some other living situations are less than ideal. They're living with parents or whatever, roommates. The thing is, is that you think when you're watching it, who's not going to choose the mortgage. And I didn't actually do a count, but I'm telling you, I feel like it's at least half chose the wedding.

Andy Hill:
Yeah, it was the majority. Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
And on the surface, people get judgey. And they're like, you would blow 30 grand on four hours? And I asked the ladies, I said, after the pandemic, did people regret the weddings? Especially because some of the weddings were even downsized because they timed out to be the beginning of the pandemic. And they said, no. The regrets, if anything, came from the homeowners, which goes to what you just said. The wedding. Sure, they "blew 30 grand on it." But they had the day of a lifetime. They had a memory, they had their friends and family there, which we talk about how millennials and gen Z, they all want these experiences. Well, that's what the wedding was. The wedding was an experience versus a thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what people forget is that the house does carry future financial responsibilities, positive things too. But it was very interesting talking to the ladies, seeing this afterthought. Do you think that people are too quick to judge stereotypes when they go to these things, where they judge people for spending a lot of money on a huge trip or a wedding or whatever it may be? And we were talking offline. We have a big family event that we're planning that I think we're spending way too much money on, but I also feel like this is what life is, right?

Speaker 3:
Absolutely. If you've saved up the money to purchase something, whether it's a thing or an experience in your life, I think there should be zero shame, and you enjoying what you've worked hard to have. Now, if, Bobby, you're going to take a big, old, personal loan to throw this party and rack up some double-digit interest to do that, then maybe not so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you were the host, let's say you're the moderator, they really didn't have a neutral party. But if you were there hosting it with the ladies, what would your advice to be as a neutral party to these couples?

Speaker 3:
I think that could be fun actually, because the show is supposed to be fun. And it's like, Hey, choose one or the other. And it's like a game show, like you said. It also opens up opportunity for social commentary at the end to be like, okay, Hey, we know that this is not the real world here, everybody. You don't have to do just this or that. There's a lot of other things you can do. I think maybe they should have risen up the conversation around renting. I think they should have risen up the conversation around maybe not having to do an extravagant thing if you can't afford it. And the realities of debt in our country, because those are really serious topics.

Speaker 3:
And since we're playfully talking about a $30,000 choice, which is very difficult for the majority of America, I think it opens up an opportunity to have real conversations. So maybe for the people who are on the show, maybe it's an opportunity for them to talk, get real, get real money talk and say, Hey, this is what it actually ended up being when we decided to go for the wedding. Or now that we've decided to go for the wedding, we have $0 to put down on this house that we're actually really interested. So there is a choice. And I think that it opens up an opportunity for education after the fun, which is important too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. Final thoughts on the show. Are you going to be watching the rest of the episodes now that I've gotten you sucked into it?

Speaker 3:
You know what, Bobby? I'll be honest with you. I will probably not watch any more of them, but I really appreciated you opening it up to me. It's just that's not typically my type of show. I don't really watch a lot of reality TV, but I liked the fact that it hit on both of those buttons, marriage and mortgage because I talk about that all the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, do you feel that it had lessons, maybe things that you already know? I mean, there was a lot of negotiation. I feel there was a lot of priority there. And I would have liked to have heard more about how they got to saving $30,000, which is no small feat.

Speaker 3:
Exactly. And I think that that in itself could teach a lot of people things. What I did like that you're bringing up, I like how they negotiated. I really like how when you come to the end and they make the final decision, here's what I was able to do for you, whether it was for the house or for the wedding venue. I used to work on event planning for 15 years, so I know all of the importance of the costs of events.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, tell us. Give us some insider secrets, Andy.

Speaker 3:
It's very important to not just take the price at face value, which the show hosts did, which was fantastic. What can you do for me? Where can we find some concessions? These people are considering going over these other locations. What can we do to save a little bit of money? Never take the price at face value in anything in life. This is an opportunity for you to negotiate, flex that skill, and go into it being like, Hey, you know what? If we can't get it, it's not going to be the end of the world. There's going to be somewhere else to go. And with that attitude, you're going to save a lot of money with a lot of choices in life, whether it's an event venue or a home or a thing that you want to buy in life. So that was one of my favorite things that the host did and showed the power of negotiation, which I think is really good for everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they did do some budgeting. They did say, for example, the wedding, if you spend this much on the dress ... I mean, there was a lot of humor in there. To me, that's a lot of the watchability. You can see, everyone, I'm trying to get Andy to really watch the rest of these. But I mean, there was a woman that had to have this ranch dressing tower. I mean, it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard, but it was also her enthusiasm was infectious. So you find these characters endearing, even in what we might perceive as silliness. The truth is we all have our thing.

Speaker 3:
Yeah. Well, I like ranch on anything, so I respect that. So pizza, vegetables. So maybe I'll have to watch that episode. I think that's that ...

Bobbi Rebell:
Maybe watch that one, and the one with a donut wall.

Speaker 3:
Oh, I like it. I like donuts, and I like ranch. Not together, but I like them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, see? I'm going to win you over. When we're done with this, I'm going to work on getting Andy to watch the rest of the show because these characters are endearing. You are rooting for them. The fact that this pandemic happened and squashed a lot of the ones ... the wedding's dreams, but they still love the weddings. It's like, I love that because the weddings, ultimately, even though they did ... and they put budgets up on the screen, by the way. They do, they show what things are going to cost. They do push people to make choices within the wedding. More so the house, it's a little trickier, but they do do that. So I thought that was also a good financial lesson. So I'm winning you over, Andy.

Speaker 3:
I like it. I'm not knocking your show. I don't normally do reality shows, but [crosstalk 00:12:58] you're a good friend of mine. If you want me to watch an another episode, I will.

Bobbi Rebell:
I recommend it for people that like reality TV. But in the meantime, everyone likes you, Andy Hill. Everyone should be following you and all of your ventures. Tell us more about what you're up to and where people can find you.

Speaker 3:
Yeah. So I have a podcast called Marriage, Kids and Money, which is appropriate for the show we're talking about today.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, that's why I picked you to do this. Hello.

Speaker 3:
I know. I'm so thankful for being here. It's a show focused on helping families make smart financial choices that let them have a great today and tomorrow. So I've been doing it for about five years. It's a podcast, it's a YouTube channel. Come check it out, marriagekidsandmoney.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's award-winning by the way.

Speaker 3:
Oh, thank you. Yes, it is award winning. I do a show on Fridays now with my wife called Bread and Wine, where it's her and I talking about stuff just very similar to the show, big decisions we're making as a family and what we're going to do. And I am secretly trying to get an award for that one, so Nicole will have to come with me to Austin. You guys can hang out.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, absolutely. Well, you've got my vote for all of that. And everyone, follow Andy, follow all of his shows. And if you enjoy this podcast, please tell a friend and make sure that you are following the podcast. That's new terminology now because we no longer say subscribe. We say, follow the podcast. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. Let me know what you liked about the show. Let me know what you want to hear more of on the podcast. And thanks, Andy, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Andy Hill:
Thank you for inviting me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Summer Watch Party - My Unorthodox Life

Our summer watch party continues with the controversial new Netflix reality tv series My Unorthodox Life. Bobbi and Jessica Goodman,  best-selling author of  “They Wish They Were Us” and "They’ll Never Catch Us” explain why it’s getting serious backlash, and why they can’t stop watching it anyway.

Summer-Watch-Party-My-Unorthodox-Life-Instagram-Jessica-Goodman.png

A Little About The Show


Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, so the premise is that there's this woman named Julia Haart and she's in her forties and she's the CEO of Elite World Group, which is a modeling conglomerate. She's launching a fashion line. She's this very glamorous, seemingly free kind of woman. She's married to an Italian man who used to be her... She used to work with at La Perla. She has four kids, kind of teenagers and young adults. And the show kind of frames this as, this is this crazy kind of New York city family, but twist... She used to be Orthodox Jewish and live in a community in upstate New York called Monsey, which is known for being very insular and having lots of different groups and communities and sects of Orthodox Judaism living there.

Jessica Goodman:
I have some thoughts on the problematic framing of this narrative. That the fact that they kind of frame it as a twist is a little bit othering in a lot of ways, but her whole thing is that she's not a part of this community anymore. And her kids are involved with the community to varying degrees. Her youngest son is... I think he's either in late middle school or early high school, and he still lives up there with his father and is very much a part of the community. And her other kids have varying levels of faith in Judaism.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm kind of amazed that they all agreed to so enthusiastically be part of this show, but they really... I almost feel like they're prepped for it and they're ready and roaring to go, which seems a little jarring. I don't know. And the clothing. I mean, I don't even know where to begin with the styling and the wardrobe on this. I mean, it's over the top. I guess that's part of why I had this Kardashian feeling and I have not been a loyal viewer of the Kardashians. I've kind of watched a few episodes over the years so I'm not really necessarily qualified to say that. But it's pretty flashy.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, totally. And I feel like that's definitely on purpose because she's framing herself as a fashion mogul and she came into the fashion world having no experience in it and knowing nothing about it and yeah. The fashion and the glam and all of that really is such a part of the show. And also obviously I've been doing deep dive stalking of everybody who's on the show and her oldest daughter Batsheva, who's 27 or something. She's a full fledged fashion influencer. Has a million followers on TikToK. She was doing that before the show launched. So clearly, this is a family where fashion is a big part of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the show is a very deliberate and polished show. There's nothing accidental in this show. It is structured. So give me your take. I mean, I find this fascinating. I didn't binge all of it yet only because I've been blocked by other true obligations, but I'll probably finish the rest right after we're done taping this because it's so fascinating. What's your general takeaway from this? Just to begin with.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, totally. I mean, you told me we were going to talk about this show and I had heard about it a little bit and I was like, oh, I'll watch an episode and see what happens. Fast forward four hours, I'd watched basically the whole thing. I couldn't take my eyes away from it. I think it's extremely compelling television. But yeah, the whole thing is super contrived. It's very clearly... They decide what the storylines are going to be. There's nothing real about it. It's very much like The Hills in that way. Fake reality. And Julia is an executive producer on the show, just like the Kardashians are executive producers on their show. So you're getting the lifestyle and the perspective that she wants you to see and I think you have to really take that into consideration when you're viewing the show.

Jessica Goodman:
I grew up and I'm still a reformed Jewish person and I think what's most interesting to me is seeing the different levels of Judaism portrayed on the show. One of the daughters is basically... I don't know if she considers herself secular, but she is 20 years old and she eats treyf, like oysters and all those kind of stuff. And her older sister is still Orthodox and has a very contrived storyline with her husband about whether or not she's going to be wearing pants, when she's also wearing an off the shoulder shirt. The whole thing is kind of fake, but I'm interested in seeing these conversations play out within the family and how they accept one another's different parts of religion.

Jessica Goodman:
I think there are some really problematic moments in the show too. There's been a real big backlash against her from women in the Orthodox community who say that she portrays them... That Julia says that Orthodox women don't have free will. And a lot of Orthodox women are coming out and saying that's not true. We do have free will and this is how, and this is why. I'm not part of that community so I can't really speculate or comment on that. It's really interesting to watch it play out and to see what she... How she has reinvented herself. No matter what you think of her or the show, this woman reinvented herself.

Jessica Goodman:
And some of her history, there seemed to be some gaps in it. I would really love a real deep dive fact check on what she's been up to since she left the community. But again, like I said, I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to. Okay. So this is my big word vomit about the show, but that's what I think.

Summer-Watch-Party-My-Unorthodox-Life-Twitter-Jessica-Goodman.png

Money Tips and Lessons Learned


Bobbi Rebell:
That's all very valid. What drew me to the show, coming from my sort of perspective, was the money thing. And one of the things that I think is interesting is there is a missing link in how she sort of went... Because it hasn't been even a decade, I think, right? How did she go from having nothing? And they do make a point in the show that they don't... That the women certainly, and also the men to a large degree, are not educated in any formal way. We do have a storyline, for example-- this is a little bit of a spoiler-- that Batsheva's husband Ben, only has a high school education and therefore his career prospects are limited because that's all they do. They study Torah and they get a high school education and I presume the women have even less of an education.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing I really admired, and again we don't get the full picture, is that she did find a way. She understood that she needed money to leave the community, which is often true in... We can only know her perspective. She felt oppressed. She felt she had no control over her life. We don't know the rest of the community but given from her perspective, that's how she felt. She knew money was going to be her answer to freedom and that was one of the things that attracted to me to the show. The ability to be able to support yourself. And she talks about that a lot in her family. That she wants her family to be able to be able to support each of themselves, even though it's very clear that right now, she's really the one supporting this entire huge operation. There's a lot of designer brands out there and I thought that was a very mixed message.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, I did kind of come to the conclusion and I'm making this up. I don't know if it's true. My gut feeling is these brands give her the clothing for free, because every single person in her family and in the show is decked out at all times and usually with their labels showing. And I'm wondering if that's because the clothing is given to her? Maybe coming from the magazine world, you have some insight into that, because I do feel like it was a mixed message. You had a lot of women empowerment messages, but then it was almost like they were so weighed down in consumerism. They go to Paris and all they're talking about is shopping, shopping, shopping and I was a little bit uncomfortable with that message.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I mean, I wish I had more insight into how she got the clothes for my magazine world, but I have no idea. I mean, there are always sponsorships and partnerships and I wouldn't be surprised if she negotiated some free clothes or rentals or something like that. But yeah, I mean the consumerism and the capitalism on display in the show is over the top, but I think that's pretty true of any glam fashion-y reality show. That's a part of the reason why people watch. I'm a huge Real Housewives fan and obviously I want to watch and see what Kyle Richards is wearing because it's always really fun. Okay, one thing that you said really struck me that I can't stop thinking about is there does seem to be a gap in how she got to where she is now. So-

Bobbi Rebell:
Had you heard of her before this?

Jessica Goodman:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Exactly! No.

Jessica Goodman:
I've been googling around and trying to find some information on her and basically her "origin story" seems to be that while she was living in what she felt to be an oppressed community, she knew she wanted to get out and she started selling life insurance to the people in her community without her husband knowing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How does that really happen? First of all.

Jessica Goodman:
I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, I love it. I support her. I think that's amazing. That's wonderful and innovative and brave, but anyway, go on.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. So that's how she said she got her nest egg to leave the community. Once she left the community, she says that she started a high heel company, which sounds great. Very cool. She was always into fashion and this is how she did it. How she wanted to become a business woman in that world. And I read an interview with her that was like, "How did you get financing?" And she said that she just kind of met people. She met someone in a doctor's office. She met someone on a flight to Hong Kong and they became her investors... And I just would love a little bit more information about how. Where Julia Haart came from and how was she was able to do this. It's obviously an incredible story and I just want more information about it.

Jessica Goodman:
Because then, once she had the shoe line, she sold it to La Perla and became the creative director there. She designed the thong outfit that Kendall Jenner wore to the Met Gala. That's a huge deal! She's very clearly good and successful. I just need some more information and I feel like... I just feel like she's not giving us the whole story on this show. Which is obvious because she's the one who produced it, like I said. But yeah, I mean this message of being able to start a business from nothing is incredibly powerful and important. I feel like with all of these... We hear about this kind of thing. This is the pull at your heartstrings story of I had nothing, now I own the world. I think what's really important about these stories when you're sharing them with young women is giving all the facts and making them really transparent so people can find ways to actually emulate that and do that for themselves. If you're watching this show looking for tips on how to start your own business, I don't think you're going to feel very equipped to do so after watching it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any favorite quotes from the show?

Jessica Goodman:
Okay, yes. I spoke about her daughter. Her second daughter, Miriam who... She's the one who goes to Stanford and she's building her own apps and she comes out as bisexual in the show and she's very cool and very free. And her mom says she's the reason for why they decided to leave the community really and she says, "People say think outside the box, but I don't even think the box exists." I just feel like she's such a cool mouthpiece for the younger generation on this show and that's just like a great little quote here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think she's awesome. So one of my favorite quotes was Julia. Julia Haart, our protagonist here saying, "I want you to never rely on anyone ever, not even me." And I didn't write down who she said that to, but I think that's really important as a-

Jessica Goodman:
Batsheva. She said it to Batsheva.

Bobbi Rebell:
To Batsheva. See, you are like a super fan of this show. Because, she does have... They're all her employees. Her children all do work for her and she's saying it's important that you establish yourself and that you are earning your money, whether you work for me or someone else and not be dependent on me as a parent. And that obviously is the sweet spot for me, writing my book about how to help our children be independent of us in a loving way and so that really hit home with me. Okay. Last little question about the show and then we're going to wrap up. Who's your favorite character and why?

Jessica Goodman:
I have two favorite character, "characters". Batsheva, just because I think she's the one who's challenging her family the most and who is challenging her mom and I found myself agreeing with her in a lot of situations. Like when Julia invites a woman from her Orthodox community to come to the city for a day of make-over and wisdom, Batsheva was right on the money when she was like, "Maybe this isn't a good idea." And the whole thing felt really exploitative to me and I feel like it did to Batsheva as well. And also Robert! Julia's best friend/employees/person who basically it seems to helm the ship at Elite. I loved him and I'm glad that they haven't really reduced him to just fun, gay sidekick character. They're giving him real storylines as well and I just think he's just a great, fun character on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I also had a tie and I agree with you. Robert was one of my favorites and even though he does seem to come out of reality TV central casting, he's also so good. I mean, he's amazing. I would be curious if he was in this role before the show, because he's just that good. He's so perfect that it's like, whoa. But look, they do say they've been working together forever and he does fit her personality as someone that would be her right-hand man, literally. So I mean-

Jessica Goodman:
Well, I did a little LinkedIn stalking and it seems like he worked with her before.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, good. And the other person that really grew on me and he seems like a minor character, it's Batsheva's husband, Ben. I just want to hug this man through the TV because he married into a certain idea of what his life was going to be. He's not her biological child that was sort of dragged out, which all of them were... Sort of voluntarily because she seems to be on good relations with her ex-husband which is also interesting. But okay. But he is just, he married this woman and then suddenly he's thrust into this whole different life and he is not set up for it. The kid is not ready for this. The first episode, they just say he's in real estate and then it comes out later the only house, the only apartment he's sold is theirs.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it was kind of not a nice dig for Julia to make. I thought that was wrong, because she did this to him. He is... I don't want to say he's a victim because he's not portrayed as a victim in any way and he seems like a fantastic person and he's really trying so hard to adjust to things that have happened to him. He's trying to find his way and be a good husband. He was told that he should have kids the earliest possible and now he's got a wife that wants to wear pants and not have a baby till she's 30. So he's really rolling with the punches and I just think he's amazing. So yay, Ben.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I could do a spin off of the two of them for sure.

Bobbi Rebell:
There might be a spinoff. I would not be surprised. Right?

Jessica Goodman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Final thoughts on the show.

Jessica Goodman:
So I still have a couple of episodes left and I'm really excited to keep going and just kind of finish it up. But I would also... If you're interested in the show and you're listening to this, I would recommend there's a great piece on Glamor. Glamour.com, about the kind of contradictions within the show and the backlash to it and explaining a lot of that stuff and I recommend that piece because it helped me think about it in a more critical way. But yeah, I... God, you know what? I'm probably going to read this woman's book too. So, yeah. I'm just interested. I'm just interested.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think it's so highly watchable and I also... For all the flaws that we talked about, I would say overall it's still a winner. I mean at a five stars, I'd still give it four and three quarter stars because while there are these inconsistencies, we don't know what was edited out. We don't know. I thought about if there's even legal things that happen behind the scenes in terms of what she can and cannot say, and it is glossy. It is definitely highly produced. But then again, it works for the show and I totally enjoyed it and I wish this whole group of people all the best success because they are risk-takers even by doing this show, even though they had control over it. And the book, I kind of hope it's not too much of a tell all. I hope that she doesn't reveal too much of her life in the name of building her persona because some things it's okay to keep private, Julia Haart. Even though we're big fans.

Jessica Goodman:
And I just want to shout out Batsheva's TikTok because I'm not even really a big fashion TikTok person and I found myself wasting a lot of time going through her very cute fashion TikToks with Ben. So highly recommend. They do-

Bobbi Rebell:
I haven't looked at it yet but I'm afraid to because it'll just... I'll never write my book.

Jessica Goodman:
No. It's a great procrastination tool.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We're going to check it out as soon as my deadline passes in a month or so. Okay. Let's just talk quickly about They'll Never Catch Us.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, yeah. So this is my new book, They'll never catch us. It is out July 27th. The date this episode drops, which is so exciting. And it is a young adult thriller about two sisters who are hyper competitive on a cross-country team in a small town in the Catskills, that is very dark and ominous and has a history of cold cases where young female runners go missing and they've never found the killer. And so the sister, the Steckler sisters, they are competing for the number one spot on their cross country team because their family can only afford to send one of them to college and the other one needs to get a scholarship. Their whole lives are wrapped up in cross country and everything changes when a new girl comes to town threatens to be better than both of them and take away the scholarship that one of them might get.

Jessica Goodman:
And when the new girl disappears, everyone starts to think that the Steckler sisters has something to do with her disappearance and they become the main suspects in the case. So it's a fun murder mystery that is about strength and desire and the power of teenage girls, which is what I love to write about. That's my sweet spot. And I think all my books also have a lot of themes about class distinctions, specifically within small communities and how power and money can kind of affect the way that young people think about the world and what their priorities are. So I'm excited. I'm excited for it to come out.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's coming out today. We can't wait to read it.




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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
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Jessica Goodman:
I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome my friends, to a new episode of our 2021 Financial Grownups Summer Watch Party series. During COVID, well I probably should have read more, but I actually did a lot of streaming, show watching and I became a little bit obsessed with the fact that there are a lot of shows out there that talk about money. Many of them totally undiscovered, and they have pretty good money lessons. So we're going to have a summer watch party highlighting some of my personal favorites and some new buzzworthy shows and of course the money tips that we learned from them. I am so excited to have my friend Jessica Goodman here with me for this episode. She is the author of two... Not one, but two best-selling books. They Wish They Were Us and the newly released... Actually it's coming out the day this episode drops, I believe. They'll Never Catch Us. Her books? So successful that she is no longer employed by Cosmos magazine as an editor where she spent many, many years. Hi Jessica.

Jessica Goodman:
Hi. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, so I also left out... Give us an update on the books because in addition to They'll Never Catch Us, which I'm holding up here even though no one can see it. But I'll hold it up just so you get the feeling of me holding it up. Your first book had all kinds of Hollywood stuff happening. Give us an update on that.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, absolutely. So my first book, They Wish They Were Us is a prep school murder mystery set in an exclusive school in Long Island. And yeah, it was optioned for TV, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey and it's with HBO Max in development right now. So we're hoping it gets made and seeing what's up, but it's been really fun to kind of see that process move along.

Bobbi Rebell:
So glam. Perfect for the show we're going to be talking about. We're going to get to They'll Never Catch Us after we talk about this week's must watch show. This is a new one. So this technically was not watched while I was under quarantine, but it was coming out and getting so much buzz that I decided to throw it in the mix. It is called My Unorthodox Life. I feel like this is almost the new Kardashian show. In that you've got all of these characters, they're this big family and they're sort of... I don't know if this is Kardashian-like or not, but they're super glam and they're sort of a fish out of water story. I don't know. Would you characterize it like that? What do you see? Tell us more about the premise.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, so the premise is that there's this woman named Julia Haart and she's in her forties and she's the CEO of Elite World Group, which is a modeling conglomerate. She's launching a fashion line. She's this very glamorous, seemingly free kind of woman. She's married to an Italian man who used to be her... She used to work with at La Perla. She has four kids, kind of teenagers and young adults. And the show kind of frames this as, this is this crazy kind of New York city family, but twist... She used to be Orthodox Jewish and live in a community in upstate New York called Monsey, which is known for being very insular and having lots of different groups and communities and sects of Orthodox Judaism living there.

Jessica Goodman:
I have some thoughts on the problematic framing of this narrative. That the fact that they kind of frame it as a twist is a little bit othering in a lot of ways, but her whole thing is that she's not a part of this community anymore. And her kids are involved with the community to varying degrees. Her youngest son is... I think he's either in late middle school or early high school, and he still lives up there with his father and is very much a part of the community. And her other kids have varying levels of faith in Judaism.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm kind of amazed that they all agreed to so enthusiastically be part of this show, but they really... I almost feel like they're prepped for it and they're ready and roaring to go, which seems a little jarring. I don't know. And the clothing. I mean, I don't even know where to begin with the styling and the wardrobe on this. I mean, it's over the top. I guess that's part of why I had this Kardashian feeling and I have not been a loyal viewer of the Kardashians. I've kind of watched a few episodes over the years so I'm not really necessarily qualified to say that. But it's pretty flashy.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, totally. And I feel like that's definitely on purpose because she's framing herself as a fashion mogul and she came into the fashion world having no experience in it and knowing nothing about it and yeah. The fashion and the glam and all of that really is such a part of the show. And also obviously I've been doing deep dive stalking of everybody who's on the show and her oldest daughter Batsheva, who's 27 or something. She's a full fledged fashion influencer. Has a million followers on TikToK. She was doing that before the show launched. So clearly, this is a family where fashion is a big part of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the show is a very deliberate and polished show. There's nothing accidental in this show. It is structured. So give me your take. I mean, I find this fascinating. I didn't binge all of it yet only because I've been blocked by other true obligations, but I'll probably finish the rest right after we're done taping this because it's so fascinating. What's your general takeaway from this? Just to begin with.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, totally. I mean, you told me we were going to talk about this show and I had heard about it a little bit and I was like, oh, I'll watch an episode and see what happens. Fast forward four hours, I'd watched basically the whole thing. I couldn't take my eyes away from it. I think it's extremely compelling television. But yeah, the whole thing is super contrived. It's very clearly... They decide what the storylines are going to be. There's nothing real about it. It's very much like The Hills in that way. Fake reality. And Julia is an executive producer on the show, just like the Kardashians are executive producers on their show. So you're getting the lifestyle and the perspective that she wants you to see and I think you have to really take that into consideration when you're viewing the show.

Jessica Goodman:
I grew up and I'm still a reformed Jewish person and I think what's most interesting to me is seeing the different levels of Judaism portrayed on the show. One of the daughters is basically... I don't know if she considers herself secular, but she is 20 years old and she eats treyf, like oysters and all those kind of stuff. And her older sister is still Orthodox and has a very contrived storyline with her husband about whether or not she's going to be wearing pants, when she's also wearing an off the shoulder shirt. The whole thing is kind of fake, but I'm interested in seeing these conversations play out within the family and how they accept one another's different parts of religion.

Jessica Goodman:
I think there are some really problematic moments in the show too. There's been a real big backlash against her from women in the Orthodox community who say that she portrays them... That Julia says that Orthodox women don't have free will. And a lot of Orthodox women are coming out and saying that's not true. We do have free will and this is how, and this is why. I'm not part of that community so I can't really speculate or comment on that. It's really interesting to watch it play out and to see what she... How she has reinvented herself. No matter what you think of her or the show, this woman reinvented herself.

Jessica Goodman:
And some of her history, there seemed to be some gaps in it. I would really love a real deep dive fact check on what she's been up to since she left the community. But again, like I said, I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to. Okay. So this is my big word vomit about the show, but that's what I think.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's all very valid. What drew me to the show, coming from my sort of perspective, was the money thing. And one of the things that I think is interesting is there is a missing link in how she sort of went... Because it hasn't been even a decade, I think, right? How did she go from having nothing? And they do make a point in the show that they don't... That the women certainly, and also the men to a large degree, are not educated in any formal way. We do have a storyline, for example-- this is a little bit of a spoiler-- that Batsheva's husband Ben, only has a high school education and therefore his career prospects are limited because that's all they do. They study Torah and they get a high school education and I presume the women have even less of an education.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing I really admired, and again we don't get the full picture, is that she did find a way. She understood that she needed money to leave the community, which is often true in... We can only know her perspective. She felt oppressed. She felt she had no control over her life. We don't know the rest of the community but given from her perspective, that's how she felt. She knew money was going to be her answer to freedom and that was one of the things that attracted to me to the show. The ability to be able to support yourself. And she talks about that a lot in her family. That she wants her family to be able to be able to support each of themselves, even though it's very clear that right now, she's really the one supporting this entire huge operation. There's a lot of designer brands out there and I thought that was a very mixed message.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, I did kind of come to the conclusion and I'm making this up. I don't know if it's true. My gut feeling is these brands give her the clothing for free, because every single person in her family and in the show is decked out at all times and usually with their labels showing. And I'm wondering if that's because the clothing is given to her? Maybe coming from the magazine world, you have some insight into that, because I do feel like it was a mixed message. You had a lot of women empowerment messages, but then it was almost like they were so weighed down in consumerism. They go to Paris and all they're talking about is shopping, shopping, shopping and I was a little bit uncomfortable with that message.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I mean, I wish I had more insight into how she got the clothes for my magazine world, but I have no idea. I mean, there are always sponsorships and partnerships and I wouldn't be surprised if she negotiated some free clothes or rentals or something like that. But yeah, I mean the consumerism and the capitalism on display in the show is over the top, but I think that's pretty true of any glam fashion-y reality show. That's a part of the reason why people watch. I'm a huge Real Housewives fan and obviously I want to watch and see what Kyle Richards is wearing because it's always really fun. Okay, one thing that you said really struck me that I can't stop thinking about is there does seem to be a gap in how she got to where she is now. So-

Bobbi Rebell:
Had you heard of her before this?

Jessica Goodman:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Exactly! No.

Jessica Goodman:
I've been googling around and trying to find some information on her and basically her "origin story" seems to be that while she was living in what she felt to be an oppressed community, she knew she wanted to get out and she started selling life insurance to the people in her community without her husband knowing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How does that really happen? First of all.

Jessica Goodman:
I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, I love it. I support her. I think that's amazing. That's wonderful and innovative and brave, but anyway, go on.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. So that's how she said she got her nest egg to leave the community. Once she left the community, she says that she started a high heel company, which sounds great. Very cool. She was always into fashion and this is how she did it. How she wanted to become a business woman in that world. And I read an interview with her that was like, "How did you get financing?" And she said that she just kind of met people. She met someone in a doctor's office. She met someone on a flight to Hong Kong and they became her investors... And I just would love a little bit more information about how. Where Julia Haart came from and how was she was able to do this. It's obviously an incredible story and I just want more information about it.

Jessica Goodman:
Because then, once she had the shoe line, she sold it to La Perla and became the creative director there. She designed the thong outfit that Kendall Jenner wore to the Met Gala. That's a huge deal! She's very clearly good and successful. I just need some more information and I feel like... I just feel like she's not giving us the whole story on this show. Which is obvious because she's the one who produced it, like I said. But yeah, I mean this message of being able to start a business from nothing is incredibly powerful and important. I feel like with all of these... We hear about this kind of thing. This is the pull at your heartstrings story of I had nothing, now I own the world. I think what's really important about these stories when you're sharing them with young women is giving all the facts and making them really transparent so people can find ways to actually emulate that and do that for themselves. If you're watching this show looking for tips on how to start your own business, I don't think you're going to feel very equipped to do so after watching it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any favorite quotes from the show?

Jessica Goodman:
Okay, yes. I spoke about her daughter. Her second daughter, Miriam who... She's the one who goes to Stanford and she's building her own apps and she comes out as bisexual in the show and she's very cool and very free. And her mom says she's the reason for why they decided to leave the community really and she says, "People say think outside the box, but I don't even think the box exists." I just feel like she's such a cool mouthpiece for the younger generation on this show and that's just like a great little quote here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think she's awesome. So one of my favorite quotes was Julia. Julia Haart, our protagonist here saying, "I want you to never rely on anyone ever, not even me." And I didn't write down who she said that to, but I think that's really important as a-

Jessica Goodman:
Batsheva. She said it to Batsheva.

Bobbi Rebell:
To Batsheva. See, you are like a super fan of this show. Because, she does have... They're all her employees. Her children all do work for her and she's saying it's important that you establish yourself and that you are earning your money, whether you work for me or someone else and not be dependent on me as a parent. And that obviously is the sweet spot for me, writing my book about how to help our children be independent of us in a loving way and so that really hit home with me. Okay. Last little question about the show and then we're going to wrap up. Who's your favorite character and why?

Jessica Goodman:
I have two favorite character, "characters". Batsheva, just because I think she's the one who's challenging her family the most and who is challenging her mom and I found myself agreeing with her in a lot of situations. Like when Julia invites a woman from her Orthodox community to come to the city for a day of make-over and wisdom, Batsheva was right on the money when she was like, "Maybe this isn't a good idea." And the whole thing felt really exploitative to me and I feel like it did to Batsheva as well. And also Robert! Julia's best friend/employees/person who basically it seems to helm the ship at Elite. I loved him and I'm glad that they haven't really reduced him to just fun, gay sidekick character. They're giving him real storylines as well and I just think he's just a great, fun character on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I also had a tie and I agree with you. Robert was one of my favorites and even though he does seem to come out of reality TV central casting, he's also so good. I mean, he's amazing. I would be curious if he was in this role before the show, because he's just that good. He's so perfect that it's like, whoa. But look, they do say they've been working together forever and he does fit her personality as someone that would be her right-hand man, literally. So I mean-

Jessica Goodman:
Well, I did a little LinkedIn stalking and it seems like he worked with her before.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, good. And the other person that really grew on me and he seems like a minor character, it's Batsheva's husband, Ben. I just want to hug this man through the TV because he married into a certain idea of what his life was going to be. He's not her biological child that was sort of dragged out, which all of them were... Sort of voluntarily because she seems to be on good relations with her ex-husband which is also interesting. But okay. But he is just, he married this woman and then suddenly he's thrust into this whole different life and he is not set up for it. The kid is not ready for this. The first episode, they just say he's in real estate and then it comes out later the only house, the only apartment he's sold is theirs.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it was kind of not a nice dig for Julia to make. I thought that was wrong, because she did this to him. He is... I don't want to say he's a victim because he's not portrayed as a victim in any way and he seems like a fantastic person and he's really trying so hard to adjust to things that have happened to him. He's trying to find his way and be a good husband. He was told that he should have kids the earliest possible and now he's got a wife that wants to wear pants and not have a baby till she's 30. So he's really rolling with the punches and I just think he's amazing. So yay, Ben.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I could do a spin off of the two of them for sure.

Bobbi Rebell:
There might be a spinoff. I would not be surprised. Right?

Jessica Goodman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Final thoughts on the show.

Jessica Goodman:
So I still have a couple of episodes left and I'm really excited to keep going and just kind of finish it up. But I would also... If you're interested in the show and you're listening to this, I would recommend there's a great piece on Glamor. Glamour.com, about the kind of contradictions within the show and the backlash to it and explaining a lot of that stuff and I recommend that piece because it helped me think about it in a more critical way. But yeah, I... God, you know what? I'm probably going to read this woman's book too. So, yeah. I'm just interested. I'm just interested.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think it's so highly watchable and I also... For all the flaws that we talked about, I would say overall it's still a winner. I mean at a five stars, I'd still give it four and three quarter stars because while there are these inconsistencies, we don't know what was edited out. We don't know. I thought about if there's even legal things that happen behind the scenes in terms of what she can and cannot say, and it is glossy. It is definitely highly produced. But then again, it works for the show and I totally enjoyed it and I wish this whole group of people all the best success because they are risk-takers even by doing this show, even though they had control over it. And the book, I kind of hope it's not too much of a tell all. I hope that she doesn't reveal too much of her life in the name of building her persona because some things it's okay to keep private, Julia Haart. Even though we're big fans.

Jessica Goodman:
And I just want to shout out Batsheva's TikTok because I'm not even really a big fashion TikTok person and I found myself wasting a lot of time going through her very cute fashion TikToks with Ben. So highly recommend. They do-

Bobbi Rebell:
I haven't looked at it yet but I'm afraid to because it'll just... I'll never write my book.

Jessica Goodman:
No. It's a great procrastination tool.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We're going to check it out as soon as my deadline passes in a month or so. Okay. Let's just talk quickly about They'll Never Catch Us.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, yeah. So this is my new book, They'll never catch us. It is out July 27th. The date this episode drops, which is so exciting. And it is a young adult thriller about two sisters who are hyper competitive on a cross-country team in a small town in the Catskills, that is very dark and ominous and has a history of cold cases where young female runners go missing and they've never found the killer. And so the sister, the Steckler sisters, they are competing for the number one spot on their cross country team because their family can only afford to send one of them to college and the other one needs to get a scholarship. Their whole lives are wrapped up in cross country and everything changes when a new girl comes to town threatens to be better than both of them and take away the scholarship that one of them might get.

Jessica Goodman:
And when the new girl disappears, everyone starts to think that the Steckler sisters has something to do with her disappearance and they become the main suspects in the case. So it's a fun murder mystery that is about strength and desire and the power of teenage girls, which is what I love to write about. That's my sweet spot. And I think all my books also have a lot of themes about class distinctions, specifically within small communities and how power and money can kind of affect the way that young people think about the world and what their priorities are. So I'm excited. I'm excited for it to come out.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's coming out today. We can't wait to read it... Another distraction. I love you Batsheva, but I'm going to read this before I check out your TikTok because I know that TikTok's going to be dangerous for me. Always so good to have you on. Where can people follow you on all the socials?

Jessica Goodman:
You can follow me on Instagram, @jessicagoodman and Twitter, @jessgood. And my website is goodmanjessica.com. So find me in any one of those places and thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for being on. Everyone, please make sure you are following the podcast on whatever platform you've listened to. That's new words because apparently subscriptions have a whole new meaning and this podcast is free for you. So come back next week, we're going to continue our Summer Watch series with another money show next week. See you then. Bye guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by [Steve Stewart 00:22:33]. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by [Ashley Wall 00:22:39]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media. @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Summer Watch Party: Going from Broke

Our summer watch party kicks off with this endearing and often hilarious series from producer Ashton Kutcher staring financial expert Tonya Rapley and Chegg CEO Dan Rosensweig.  Bobbi is joined by Financial Wellness Expert Jason Vitug of Phroogal to share why they both could not stop binging this show and why you need to be watching it too!

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A Little About The Show

Bobbi Rebell:
I have a bunch of shows picked out for this summer watch series. Most of which are sort of, I would say under appreciated and undiscovered. And one of them that's definitely under appreciated is a show called Going From Broke. It is on Crackle, our mutual friend, Tonya Rapley is part of it. The show is in its second season. Fun fact, it is produced by Ashton Kutcher who does make occasional appearances. Jason, tell us a little bit about the show.

Jason Vitug:
Well, the basic premise for Going From Broke is that each episode features someone who is well broke. Basically they need an intervention, they need some guidance. It's hosted by Dan Rosenzweig, CEO of Chegg and our friend financial expert, Tonya Rapley, who helps young professionals, young individuals become the CEO of their own lives.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So each episode is about a half an hour and it has kind of a classic reality TV structure and that the hosts come in, they do a little preview of what we're going to see. Then they do a debrief with the guest to figure out what exactly is going on. Then we see the person change their bad habits or make some tough decisions. And then there's progress reports at the end. Jason, okay, besides the fact that we both adore Tonya, what's your take on the show?

Jason Vitug:
It's really an amazing show. Just the great casting. One of the key things that I love about shows that talk about personal finance is when it humanizes the individual. And often we kind of look at the financial aspect, just the numbers, not the emotional or the personal side. And this show does a great job in choosing people with compelling stories. So they're not just broke because they made financial mistakes, they're broke because there's a ton of different aspects when it comes to their life that caused them to take on debt or to live above their means.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, a lot of these people are doing amazing things with their life. I mean, one of the people featured is someone called The Donovan. So he's a musician. He's super talented at what he does. Huge personality, very giving, but yet behind the scenes, it's a mess. Right?

Jason Vitug:
It is. And I have to say that The Donovan needs his own show. He was endearing. And I was just laughing throughout the whole entire episode. He was so dependent on his income from his gigs. And when this gig stopped during the pandemic, well, what happens, there was no money coming in and he was relying on his savings and then relying on credit. And it was exacerbating his financial issues. And all of a sudden he was in a situation where he was unhappy with his life. And that's where I related.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And also he has a very colorful personality, very over the top lifestyle, but yet he didn't really see it that way. And it really was so as you said, I mean, endearing is just the best word for The Donovan. Because if he didn't have that personality, when things would come up, like his not being able to handle tasks that so many of us take for granted, like just basic cleaning your house, mowing your lawn. Although not that I've ever done that. Watching him sort of cave was so like, you just wanted to give the guy a hug because even though he was saying things that sounded crazy, watching him adapt his self care routine to more frugal approaches was the best.

Jason Vitug:
It was hilarious. And I was smiling throughout the episode and the fact that, yes, I've washed my own dishes. I've cleaned my own house. I've mowed my own lawn, but I can not play two pianos at once. And The Donovan can play two pianos at once. So that goes to show you where his talent lies and where he was using his money to help him in other aspects of his life. But when you get that financial situation where income isn't coming in, you're going to have to make drastic changes. And he was hilarious in terms of wanting to keep his routine when it comes to self care. The lawn was awesome at the final part of the show was just amazing. And I was cracking up and I couldn't wait to watch another episode.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, totally. And by the way, every episode you have to watch to the end because the closing credits, they put in the funniest clips that just leave you with this feeling where you were just rooting for them and so happy for them that they've achieved, whatever it is they achieved over the episode. And the other common theme that I saw in the casting was that these were people that were very successful and they were also generally very giving people. For example, there was someone in the first episode who had been an athlete and he definitely had a pension for buying expensive sneakers, but he was also paying tuition, I think for, was it his little brother? I mean, these are giving people.

Jason Vitug:
These are all giving people. So when that first episode of season one, his name was Obi, he was a former track athlete and a CEO of his own company. He felt in charge of having to take care of his parent and his brother who would be going to college. And this is just one example of the many episodes where it isn't selfish people or people who are broke because they're living way above their means. And they don't care about anyone else, but themselves. They're actually individuals who have responsibilities and they care about their family members, their neighbors, their community. And so part of their wellbeing when you think about it, that way is taking care of others. And they explore this. Well, what happens when your finances fall apart and you become broke and you still have these responsibilities? And so that was one. And one other show that got me was the mother with the special needs child. And she was in dire straits and she relied on credit cards to supplement her income. And so the first take is, okay, you need to stop using credit and you need to do X, Y, and Z such as rent out room for Airbnb. So these are practical tips. That's what I love. They give practical tips to help people manage their finances and kind of stop being broke.

Jason Vitug:
But then there's a point where she wanted to continue to spend eight weeks vacation in Mexico. Part of that was, you could say, okay, well that's luxurious spending. Why would you spend eight weeks, all that cash to go to Mexico? And she shares that is the only place and time where she sees her special needs daughter smiling and being happy. And so you have to connect with people in that human element where we make these financial decisions and we think it's just the numbers, but there's always something deeper behind it. And so for that place automatically, I said, okay, stop going. You can't go to Mexico. And that would probably be my advice, just like what they started with. And then towards the end, they're like, well, yes, that's how you should be spending your money, especially when it's helping your child.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, like you said, they're very direct. They're very blunt. They're very understanding. I love an episode where they literally, I mean, this guy, he felt that he was a contractor basically. And he bought a Prius to save money because it's much more fuel efficient, but then he literally bought a truck because he felt that when he went to bid on jobs, no one would give him the job if he wasn't driving a truck and they convinced him to sell, I don't know if you saw this episode, they convinced him to sell the truck. And you know what, he was still closing the deals, but he needed an outside person to show him that. So having that outside perspective, and they do make people sell things. I mean, we were talking about Obi. Obi literally this is a spoiler, literally sells shoes that he is wearing. He bought some expensive sneakers. They made him take them off his feet. It's just an awesome show.

Jason Vitug:
It really is. And I'm a former sneakerhead. So I used to have those expensive sneakers. And so I related to him when the buyer wanted the shoes off his feet and he was going to give a pretty penny. And that is a tough decision. And some people might say, it's just sneakers. I'm telling you from a former sneakerhead, it's not just sneakers. There's a lot tied into it. And so for him to do that, just showed some growth. And I love that about the show.


Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Let's get to some of the lesson takeaways. Here's some of the money tips slash lessons from the show. First of all, I think there's a lot of perspective and understanding, for example, a lot of the spending that we see seems ridiculous, but it's brought to us in empathy and with love. And I think that's a great thing to understand that we're all human and we all have different values, right?

Jason Vitug:
Absolutely. And that kind of leads into that circumstances change. And season two takes place during the pandemic. And the pandemic has changed the lives of so many people and understanding that there are external factors that impact our finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
Totally. Debtors, a lot of us can be very judgy when it comes to people in debt. But the truth is a lot of the things that put them in debt are things that could easily happen to any of us. And they're very specific down to exactly where the money is spent and we can all relate. I mean, shutting down Amazon or not feeling like you have control over your life if you don't have that money to spend, who hasn't been there at some time, if we're all being honest.

Jason Vitug:
Yeah. I'm going to be honest. I've been there. And what's often necessary is doing these line by line breakdowns. And they do this really well from our friend, Tonya, who goes through the budget. And this is kind of like an indication that most people are successful with what they do and with their finances until something happens. And when something happens, you have to start asking the question, well, where's the money going?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And also look, they do tell the people that are sort of the stars of the show that they have to negotiate. They need to go in and get better deals. For example, if they have a lot of credit card debt, they need to figure out how best to manage it without just kind of continuing to pay it down. You can call up the people that you owe money to and make a better deal for yourself. And I think that's valuable too, to be your own self advocate.

Jason Vitug:
Yeah. It's really making those tough decisions. And sometimes those tough decisions are things like opening up your house to a roommate. And if you're used to living by yourself and having someone live in your house is quite a change. And so there's another person that we talked about, Obi selling his sneakers and others who decided to live with relatives and Airbnb that home. And so there are all these decisions that need to be made in order to get your finances from where they are to where you want them to be. And they're not easy, they're tough, but you need to make these tough decisions and they help them through that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, they had to sell stuff that was literally part of their identity. That's a really hard thing. There's a lot of tough love in this show. I mean, there's a great line from Dan Rosensweig to a guest who kept talking about how much money they make. And he was like, no, you don't make money. You generate revenue. There is a difference. And then this was the guy who had to sell his truck. Gary V yelled at him for a while and told him to Google the word profit. And he literally, Gary V starts yelling. It was such a great scene. Gary V is yelling at this guy, saying, sell everything you own. And then he said a lot of other mean stuff. So I won't spoil that. You guys can watch that episode. It's awesome because it really crosses a line that a lot of financial shows are just too polite to cross, but they get really kind of, they just... Let's just say that. I don't know. I'll leave it there.

Jason Vitug:
There's a lot of emotional intelligence in the show. There really is a lot.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Jason Vitug:
And I have to admit, I laughed. I cried. There was a lot of tears because I connected with these people and their stories. And it is really awesome seeing where they started in the beginning of the show and where they end. And as you mentioned, stay tuned till the end credits because you're going to crack up.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing is there's sort of an Easter egg in this. I mean, look, it's not a surprise. It is produced by Ashton Kutcher's production company. So he knows people. So in addition to Ashton Kutcher, there's a lot of celebrity appearances. I guess we can spoil some of them. We won't say which shows they're in, but I know Demi Lovato was in one and Jewel was in one. Who else do you remember spotting?

Jason Vitug:
There were executives such as the executive for Airbnb was there. And so there are a number, but the Demi Lovato one when you get to that episode was great because it shows that people who have achieved success in their careers and have a spotlight on them, do have financial struggles and issues as well. And so it's all connected and I love that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. The show just makes so much sense. I wish I had discovered it earlier. I'm glad there's two seasons. I hope they do more. I also, as we mentioned, we're a fan of Tonya's. I also had remembered that I interviewed Dan Rosensweig when I was a reporter at Reuters, he was at Yahoo where he was, I believe the COO. He's the CEO of Chegg. The program, as I mentioned, produced by Ashton Kutcher is sponsored by Chegg and there's definitely corporate support. And I love to see that. I think it's great. Chegg's an educational company, and this is a wonderful way to both get their message out and also do some great [inaudible 00:17:07] content. Right?

Jason Vitug:
I agree. I think it's important for us to kind of get this tie... If a corporation understands the importance of financial education and can create content that entertains me and is educational, it is a win. We need more of that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. I give it five stars. It is available. That's just a made up thing, but I'm giving it five stars. We don't have a scale. It's just five stars. That's going to be the most. And it's available on Crackle, which I also never watched. I had to download it just to watch this, but Crackle is free. There's some ads, but Crackle is free. Jason, your final thoughts.

Jason Vitug:
I recommend everyone checking it out. It is a free app, so you're not spending any money to enjoy the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. So keep at it guys. We think you're doing great.




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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what, finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Jason Vitug:
And I have to admit, I laughed. I cried. There was a lot of tears because I connected with these people and their stories. It is really awesome seeing where they started in the beginning of the show and where they end.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what, when it comes to money being a grown up is hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome, my grow up friends to our first ever financial grownup summer watch party series. During COVID you guys, I had a chance to check out some streaming shows and there's a lot of uncovered gems out there that have really got amazing money lessons. So I thought what a great idea to highlight a few of them in a little summer mini series for everybody. So we're going to highlight some of my personal favorites, and then we're going to go over the money tips from them in the coming weeks. Now for this episode, I am so excited to be joined by my friend financial wellness guru, Jason Vitug author of You Only Live Once: The Roadmap to Wellness and a Purposeful Life. Also, the brains behind Phroogal spelled with a P-H-R-O-O-G-A-L. Did I spell that right Jason?

Jason Vitug:
You got it absolutely correctly. Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jason wait, you joined the podcasting world. You just launched your own podcast.

Jason Vitug:
I have. It's Live Financially Well, so I decided let's just jump in it and have awesome conversations with myself. So I'll be reading articles and giving commentary and insights on the articles that I've written. So it's a new way to kind of digest the information and the knowledge that I've written about.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and a lot of people like to hear the audio of articles in that it's kind of like books on tape, Phroogal on tape, right?

Jason Vitug:
It is. And it's humbling when my brothers and sisters who are part of my target market, they don't read my articles or my blog and they call me or they text me. And so I was recording and sending it to them because they have busy lives and they prefer, or they're auditory learners. They learn listening as opposed to sitting down and reading an article. And I figure there might be way more people. And just like your listeners who learn through voice versus written word.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also through watching. I mean, I do a lot of book recommendations on this podcast and I guess that same idea inspired me to do the summer watch series because I think a lot of people like to consume content and maybe learn through video. I think that's something we learned over the pandemic with everybody learning stuff and having meetings over Zoom. Yes, there can be too much Zoom. Absolutely. But we also can actually learn a lot through video, right?

Jason Vitug:
We really do. That's why I'm excited about this discussion today because it's a different form of learning. So entertainment or edutainment. So this is going to be exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:
Edutainment. Okay. I have a bunch of shows picked out for this summer watch series. Most of which are sort of, I would say underappreciated and undiscovered. And one of them that's definitely underappreciated is a show called Going From broke. It is on Crackle, our mutual friend, Tonya Rapley is part of it. The show is in its second season. Fun fact, it is produced by Ashton Kutcher who does make occasional appearances. Jason, tell us a little bit about the show.

Jason Vitug:
Well, the basic premise for Going From Broke is that each episode features someone who is well broke. Basically they need an intervention, they need some guidance. It's hosted by Dan Rosenzweig, CEO of Chegg and our friend financial expert, Tonya Rapley, who helps young professionals, young individuals become the CEO of their own lives.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So each episode is about a half an hour and it has kind of a classic reality TV structure and that the hosts come in, they do a little preview of what we're going to see. Then they do a debrief with the guest to figure out what exactly is going on. Then we see the person change their bad habits or make some tough decisions. And then there's progress reports at the end. Jason, okay, besides the fact that we both adore Tonya, what's your take on the show?

Jason Vitug:
It's really an amazing show. Just the great casting. One of the key things that I love about shows that talk about personal finance is when it humanizes the individual. And often we kind of look at the financial aspect, just the numbers, not the emotional or the personal side. And this show does a great job in choosing people with compelling stories. So they're not just broke because they made financial mistakes, they're broke because there's a ton of different aspects when it comes to their life that caused them to take on debt or to live above their means.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, a lot of these people are doing amazing things with their life. I mean, one of the people featured is someone called The Donovan. So he's a musician. He's super talented at what he does. Huge personality, very giving, but yet behind the scenes, it's a mess. Right?

Jason Vitug:
It is. And I have to say that The Donovan needs his own show. He was endearing. And I was just laughing throughout the whole entire episode. He was so dependent on his income from his gigs. And when this gig stopped during the pandemic, well, what happens, there was no money coming in and he was relying on his savings and then relying on credit. And it was exacerbating his financial issues. And all of a sudden he was in a situation where he was unhappy with his life. And that's where I related.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And also he has a very colorful personality, very over the top lifestyle, but yet he didn't really see it that way. And it really was so as you said, I mean, endearing is just the best word for The Donovan. Because if he didn't have that personality, when things would come up, like his not being able to handle tasks that so many of us take for granted, like just basic cleaning your house, mowing your lawn. Although not that I've ever done that. Watching him sort of cave was so like, you just wanted to give the guy a hug because even though he was saying things that sounded crazy, watching him adapt his self care routine to more frugal approaches was the best.

Jason Vitug:
It was hilarious. And I was smiling throughout the episode and the fact that, yes, I've washed my own dishes. I've cleaned my own house. I've mowed my own lawn, but I can not play two pianos at once. And The Donovan can play two pianos at once. So that goes to show you where his talent lies and where he was using his money to help him in other aspects of his life. But when you get that financial situation where income isn't coming in, you're going to have to make drastic changes. And he was hilarious in terms of wanting to keep his routine when it comes to self care. The lawn was awesome at the final part of the show was just amazing. And I was cracking up and I couldn't wait to watch another episode.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, totally. And by the way, every episode you have to watch to the end because the closing credits, they put in the funniest clips that just leave you with this feeling where you were just rooting for them and so happy for them that they've achieved, whatever it is they achieved over the episode. And the other common theme that I saw in the casting was that these were people that were very successful and they were also generally very giving people. For example, there was someone in the first episode who had been an athlete and he definitely had a pension for buying expensive sneakers, but he was also paying tuition, I think for, was it his little brother? I mean, these are giving people.

Jason Vitug:
These are all giving people. So when that first episode of season one, his name was Obi, he was a former track athlete and a CEO of his own company. He felt in charge of having to take care of his parent and his brother who would be going to college. And this is just one example of the many episodes where it isn't selfish people or people who are broke because they're living way above their means. And they don't care about anyone else, but themselves. They're actually individuals who have responsibilities and they care about their family members, their neighbors, their community. And so part of their wellbeing when you think about it, that way is taking care of others. And they explore this. Well, what happens when your finances fall apart and you become broke and you still have these responsibilities? And so that was one. And one other show that got me was the mother with the special needs child. And she-

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. Go ahead.

Jason Vitug:
Yeah. So she was in dire straits and she relied on credit cards to supplement her income. And so the first take is, okay, you need to stop using credit and you need to do X, Y, and Z such as rent out room for Airbnb. So these are practical tips. That's what I love. They give practical tips to help people manage their finances and kind of stop being broke.

Jason Vitug:
But then there's a point where she wanted to continue to spend eight weeks vacation in Mexico. Part of that was, you could say, okay, well that's luxurious spending. Why would you spend eight weeks, all that cash to go to Mexico? And she shares that is the only place and time where she sees her special needs daughter smiling and being happy. And so you have to connect with people in that human element where we make these financial decisions and we think it's just the numbers, but there's always something deeper behind it. And so for that place automatically, I said, okay, stop going. You can't go to Mexico. And that would probably be my advice, just like what they started with. And then towards the end, they're like, well, yes, that's how you should be spending your money, especially when it's helping your child.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, like you said, they're very direct. They're very blunt. They're very understanding. I love an episode where they literally, I mean, this guy, he felt that he was a contractor basically. And he bought a Prius to save money because it's much more fuel efficient, but then he literally bought a truck because he felt that when he went to bid on jobs, no one would give him the job if he wasn't driving a truck and they convinced him to sell, I don't know if you saw this episode, they convinced him to sell the truck. And you know what, he was still closing the deals, but he needed an outside person to show him that. So having that outside perspective, and they do make people sell things. I mean, we were talking about Obi. Obi literally this is a spoiler, literally sells shoes that he is wearing. He bought some expensive sneakers. They made him take them off his feet. It's just an awesome show.

Jason Vitug:
It really is. And I'm a former sneakerhead. So I used to have those expensive sneakers. And so I related to him when the buyer wanted the shoes off his feet and he was going to give a pretty penny. And that is a tough decision. And some people might say, it's just sneakers. I'm telling you from a former sneakerhead, it's not just sneakers. There's a lot tied into it. And so for him to do that, just showed some growth. And I love that about the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Let's get to some of the lesson takeaways. Here's some of the money tips slash lessons from the show. First of all, I think there's a lot of perspective and understanding, for example, a lot of the spending that we see seems ridiculous, but it's brought to us in empathy and with love. And I think that's a great thing to understand that we're all human and we all have different values, right?

Jason Vitug:
Absolutely. And that kind of leads into that circumstances change. And season two takes place during the pandemic. And the pandemic has changed the lives of so many people and understanding that there are external factors that impact our finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
Totally. Debtors, a lot of us can be very judgy when it comes to people in debt. But the truth is a lot of the things that put them in debt are things that could easily happen to any of us. And they're very specific down to exactly where the money is spent and we can all relate. I mean, shutting down Amazon or not feeling like you have control over your life if you don't have that money to spend, who hasn't been there at some time, if we're all being honest.

Jason Vitug:
Yeah. I'm going to be honest. I've been there. And what's often necessary is doing these line by line breakdowns. And they do this really well from our friend, Tonya, who goes through the budget. And this is kind of like an indication that most people are successful with what they do and with their finances until something happens. And when something happens, you have to start asking the question, well, where's the money going?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And also look, they do tell the people that are sort of the stars of the show that they have to negotiate. They need to go in and get better deals. For example, if they have a lot of credit card debt, they need to figure out how best to manage it without just kind of continuing to pay it down. You can call up the people that you owe money to and make a better deal for yourself. And I think that's valuable too, to be your own self advocate.

Jason Vitug:
Yeah. It's really making those tough decisions. And sometimes those tough decisions are things like opening up your house to a roommate. And if you're used to living by yourself and having someone live in your house is quite a change. And so there's another person that we talked about, Obi selling his sneakers and others who decided to live with relatives and Airbnb that home. And so there are all these decisions that need to be made in order to get your finances from where they are to where you want them to be. And they're not easy, they're tough, but you need to make these tough decisions and they help them through that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, they had to sell stuff that was literally part of their identity. That's a really hard thing. There's a lot of tough love in this show. I mean, there's a great line from Dan Rosensweig to a guest who kept talking about how much money they make. And he was like, no, you don't make money. You generate revenue. There is a difference. And then this was the guy who had to sell his truck. Gary V yelled at him for a while and told him to Google the word profit. And he literally, Gary V starts yelling. It was such a great scene. Gary V is yelling at this guy, saying, sell everything you own. And then he said a lot of other mean stuff. So I won't spoil that. You guys can watch that episode. It's awesome because it really crosses a line that a lot of financial shows are just too polite to cross, but they get really kind of, they just... Let's just say that. I don't know. I'll leave it there.

Jason Vitug:
There's a lot of emotional intelligence in the show. There really is a lot.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Jason Vitug:
And I have to admit, I laughed. I cried. There was a lot of tears because I connected with these people and their stories. And it is really awesome seeing where they started in the beginning of the show and where they end. And as you mentioned, stay tuned till the end credits because you're going to crack up.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing is there's sort of an Easter egg in this. I mean, look, it's not a surprise. It is produced by Ashton Kutcher's production company. So he knows people. So in addition to Ashton Kutcher, there's a lot of celebrity appearances. I guess we can spoil some of them. We won't say which shows they're in, but I know Demi Lovato was in one and Jewel was in one. Who else do you remember spotting?

Jason Vitug:
There were executives such as the executive for Airbnb was there. And so there are a number, but the Demi Lovato one when you get to that episode was great because it shows that people who have achieved success in their careers and have a spotlight on them, do have financial struggles and issues as well. And so it's all connected and I love that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. The show just makes so much sense. I wish I had discovered it earlier. I'm glad there's two seasons. I hope they do more. I also, as we mentioned, we're a fan of Tonya's. I also had remembered that I interviewed Dan Rosensweig when I was a reporter at Reuters, he was at Yahoo where he was, I believe the COO. He's the CEO of Chegg. The program, as I mentioned, produced by Ashton Kutcher is sponsored by Chegg and there's definitely corporate support. And I love to see that. I think it's great. Chegg's an educational company, and this is a wonderful way to both get their message out and also do some great [inaudible 00:17:07] content. Right?

Jason Vitug:
I agree. I think it's important for us to kind of get this tie... If a corporation understands the importance of financial education and can create content that entertains me and is educational, it is a win. We need more of that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. I give it five stars. It is available. That's just a made up thing, but I'm giving it five stars. We don't have a scale. It's just five stars. That's going to be the most. And it's available on Crackle, which I also never watched. I had to download it just to watch this, but Crackle is free. There's some ads, but Crackle is free. Jason, your final thoughts.

Jason Vitug:
I recommend everyone checking it out. It is a free app, so you're not spending any money to enjoy the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. So keep at it guys. We think you're doing great. Jason, where can people catch up with you?

Jason Vitug:
You can find me on social media, Twitter and Instagram. That's where I'm most active @phroogal, That's P-H-R-O-O-A-L. And you can also converse with me via the website, Phroogal.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jason, thank you so much for joining me.

Jason Vitug:
Thank you. This was fun.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes. And everyone follow Jason. Follow me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and DM me what other shows you want us to talk about on the show. We're going to do a bunch of episodes in the summer watch series. Thanks again. We'll see you next time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.


5 Money Tips to achieve financial wellness and improve your mental health with Dr. Elizabeth Dunn of Happy Money

Do you track your “Happy Spends” against your “Sad Spends”? Dr. Elizabeth Dunn of Happy Money will have you doing that and more with her money mental wellness tips. Don’t you feel better already?

Dr-Elizabeth-Dunn-Main-Instagram-Author-Happy-Money.png

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn’s 5 Money Tips to achieve financial wellness

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I spend my day-to-day work life thinking about what makes people happy and how we can make people happier. In particular, I've been really interested in how we can harness money as a tool to increase our happiness. I think the sort of overarching idea that I've been arguing throughout my career is that how much money we have actually matters less than what it is we do with it. So making more careful choices around not just how we invest our money, how we save our money-- which we think so much about-- but also how we spend our money. Can we spend it in ways that genuinely make us happier, rather than just sort of squandering it on the things that daily life tempts us with? All the things we see in sort of advertisements, things we see other people buying. Instead, can we chart our own path and find the kinds of purchases that really fill us with happiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is such a great concept and one that I should mention you do cover in your book, Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending. All right, let's get to your five tips for financial wellness. Now some of these might sound familiar, but the way that you present them is going to really resonate I think, with our audience, because you also have the data to back them up and I think that's going to really motivate a lot of us to put these into action in our lives. Okay. The first one is normalize talking about money, which we hear a lot, but you've got a different spin on it.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. This really comes from our research at Happy Money where we've seen that people in debt especially really want a chance to hear from other people that have been through that journey too. They want to know how did you get through this? How did you pay off your debt? What challenges did you overcome? We're used to talking about money maybe on the brighter side of investments and savings and so forth, but I think it's really important that we start sharing our financial lows along with our financial highs just to normalize talking about money and just taking away some of the stigma that surrounds debt. We really encourage people to talk about and think about what it is that a rich life means to them. So I would argue that rich really is not about what's in your bank account. It's about what makes you happy and fulfilled in meaningful and sustainable ways. One thing we see is that over and above how much income people earn, it really matters how they think about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Your second money tip is to treat money as a tool, but again, you are reframing the conversation here.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. So I think very often, people treat money as an end in itself. So much of financial planning, for example, surrounds how to get more money. So if we shift the conversation to be about how to get more happiness, then we start thinking of money not as an end in itself, but as a tool, kind of pathway for getting to happiness. We do know that people who have more money tend to be happier than those who have less, but this is mainly because those people with more money tend to be more able to meet their expenses and stay out of debt. In reality, the amount of money that you have really matters less than what you do with it and the key here is figuring out how to use money as a tool to boost your mental health and happiness.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This holds true whether you have a little money or a lot of money. In some of our recent data, we're seeing just how consistently these ideas hold up across the whole spectrum of income. For example, we know from research that people tend to get more satisfaction from buying time. For example, buying some help with childcare or a meal delivery service can really pay dividends in terms of life satisfaction. And from our latest data from Happy Money, we're actually seeing that this relationship holds true again, even for people who are living paycheck to paycheck, kind of struggling to make ends meet.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
It's quite a consistent principal and even more consistent, we see that people who give, who use their money to benefit others, tend to experience greater happiness. This is what we see, remarkably, even for people below the poverty line. This relationship holds true all the way across the income spectrum. At the end of the day, that's really why we created Happy Money, which is to help people use their money in ways that support their wellbeing and happiness and also allow them to build healthier and more mindful habits more broadly around their finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because some of the examples you just gave like ordering in dinner are things that we generally think of as splurges and things that we can cut out when we're trying to get control of our budgets, but we shouldn't maybe make those assumptions.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's exactly right. In our research, we see that many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress, a lot of time stress... Buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has this changed during the pandemic? Do you have any data on that? I'm curious.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. We're just beginning to fully explore this question of how these principles might've been altered through the pandemic. But I think a particularly interesting one to focus on at this stage of the pandemic is giving, because we know that many people did not give as much money as they usually would to charity during the pandemic. Many charities are really hurting right now, and so as we kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel and maybe experience some gratitude over having made it this far and still being alive, still kind of being okay. I think this is a wonderful time to pay it forward.

Elizabeth-Dunn-Twitter-Quote-#3-Author-Happy-Money.png

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's move on to the third one. I think this is my favorite one. Track your happy spends versus sad spends.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. So I always tell people to track what you spend and how it makes you feel. So people are used to tracking their spending to try to restrain their spending or know how much they've got, but I say add on how it makes you feel so you can actually decide what's worth it to you and what's not. So really pay attention to how these purchases affect your mood and then you can start to identify what I call happy spends, these spends that really make you happy. And sad spends, maybe things that used to make you happy but aren't really paying off in terms of your happiness anymore.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This is going to help you ask yourself what actually brings you real joy and what do you regret by the next day? I would argue that when you shift your spending toward what makes you truly happy... That might be paying off debt, or savoring a treat, helping a friend donating to charity. That can enable you to make better, happier decisions around your own wellbeing and it's also a great opportunity to start thinking about investing in your future self. What are the purchases that make you happy when you first acquire them, but also still continue to provide happiness dividends going forward. I think that's a really fascinating issue. Helping people gain better self insight into what makes them happy starts with just paying attention in the moment to what's providing you joy and what's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
I was so glad to see this next one on the list because it really resonates with so many of us coming out of this pandemic. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis for me on celebrate along the way, because we really don't know what's going to happen.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. I mean, this experience of the past year has really made me appreciate the value of just celebrating what's good in the moment. So, I recommend when people are tackling a big financial challenge or big life challenge, start with small manageable changes. Achievable changes. And then do take the time to celebrate those little milestones along the way. So it isn't necessarily about just achieving your final goal and that's the only time you should celebrate. Celebrate each piece of it. So break your big goals into more bite sized pieces and these small steps are going to be a lot easier to form into sticky sorts of habits. Just to give some examples, you could start with little changes like saving $10 a week, or maybe giving $15 to a charitable organization that needs your support, or try putting an extra $50 a month toward your credit card debt.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
These are potentially more achievable changes that over time can actually have a really big impact on your overall happiness. So what we've seen in our data at Happy Money is that even building up a little bit of savings can go a long way in terms of people's life satisfaction. So we see that people with just $400 in emergency savings reported over 13% higher levels of life satisfaction compared to people who didn't have that cushion.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're removing that anxiety, right?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I think that's a huge part of it. So we see that when people have savings, it kind of acts as this cushion that protects them from some of the shocks of unexpected events in daily life and can also just reassure people that they're going to be a little bit insulated. I think that's one of the big lessons for me from the pandemic because we just don't know what the future holds. Save up some money now so you're ready for whatever surprises the future might have in store.

Elizabeth-Dunn-Twitter-Quote-#1-Author-Happy-Money.png

Bobbi Rebell:
And this last one, I think, is just so essential and I hope that people take the time and really take it seriously. And that is to take the time to deal with your feelings around money... Because we often get so caught up in life's day-to-day, we never stop and kind of examine how we're approaching money.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. And I think this is probably the most important tip. That we focus so much on the sort of objective financial challenges surrounding money itself but we have to also deal with the feelings that are hovering around those challenges. So thinking about this, we decided last year to introduce a new money, mindfulness and stress reduction program that we call Peace. Like peace and love. This free course is really neat because it incorporates cognitive behavioral therapy and psychology to help people understand and reduce the impact that financial stress is having on their lives. The fact that it's completely free was super important to me. This is something we are giving away to just help people deal with the financial stress that the past year has created.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
What we did was really to try to think about how could busy people fit this into their lives? As somebody who's got a full-time job and a kid I thought, 'Could I make this work even for me?' Each exercise is really broken down into these small digestible bites and everything is personalized to the individual and really designed to build skills for addressing stress levels. And going beyond just combating stress, we also wanted to think about the positive sides. So we've got a whole week that's devoted to just helping people promote more positive thoughts and actions. To learn how to amplify their positive emotions and get more joy out of the tiny pleasures of daily life like sitting in the sunshine or eating a piece of chocolate.



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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grown-up for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
In our research, we see that people, many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress-- a lot of time stress-- buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being grown up is hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends! I hope everyone is having fun this summer and feeling healthy and most of all, feeling happier these days. A lot of things affect our moods. I know for me, I always feel better when the weather is good and there is scientific evidence that for some people, including me, sunshine and warmth really does have an impact on our moods. There's also evidence that what's going on with our money can have a measurable impact, a scientifically measurable impact on our mood and yes, our happiness. So, okay. For most of us, it doesn't take a scientific survey or research or whatever to tell us that if we're worried about money, we're not happy. But stick with me friends, because if we understand the science, we can then take it to the next level and implement real strategies to boost our financial wellness.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for example, a lot of the time, things like meal delivery plans are framed as something that maybe we should feel a little guilty about. We see it as a splurge, a luxury, and certainly discretionary when we're having budgeting discussions. But here's the thing. Apparently, things that buy us time are scientifically proven to be good for our mental health and could actually be one of the best uses of our money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I found the perfect guest to tell us more about all of that and also to teach us how we can incorporate good money habits that lead to happiness into our lives. Dr. Elizabeth Dunn is a professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of British Columbia and the Chief Science Officer at Happy Money, a Los Angeles based FinTech company. Now Dunn is also the author of Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending which she co authored with Michael Norton of Harvard Business School. Dr. Dunn conducts experimental research on happiness, exploring how people can optimize their use of time, money and technology to promote well-being. Her TED 2019 Talk on generosity and happiness, has been viewed over 3 million times and was selected by TED as one of the top 10 Talks of that year 2019. She is amazing and we are in for a treat. Here is Dr. Elizabeth Dunn. Dr. Elizabeth Dunn, you are a financial grownup. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, okay. Before we get to... You're going to be talking about five tips for financial wellness and improving our mental health, especially as it relates to money. I have to ask you, you call yourself a happiness researcher. Tell us about that.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Well, I spend my day-to-day work life thinking about what makes people happy and how we can make people happier. In particular, I've been really interested in how we can harness money as a tool to increase our happiness. I think the sort of overarching idea that I've been arguing throughout my career is that how much money we have actually matters less than what it is we do with it. So making more careful choices around not just how we invest our money, how we save our money-- which we think so much about-- but also how we spend our money. Can we spend it in ways that genuinely make us happier, rather than just sort of squandering it on the things that daily life tempts us with? All the things we see in sort of advertisements, things we see other people buying. Instead, can we chart our own path and find the kinds of purchases that really fill us with happiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is such a great concept and one that I should mention you do cover in your book, Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending. All right, let's get to your five tips for financial wellness. Now some of these might sound familiar, but the way that you present them is going to really resonate I think, with our audience, because you also have the data to back them up and I think that's going to really motivate a lot of us to put these into action in our lives. Okay. The first one is normalize talking about money, which we hear a lot, but you've got a different spin on it.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. This really comes from our research at Happy Money where we've seen that people in debt especially really want a chance to hear from other people that have been through that journey too. They want to know how did you get through this? How did you pay off your debt? What challenges did you overcome? We're used to talking about money maybe on the brighter side of investments and savings and so forth, but I think it's really important that we start sharing our financial lows along with our financial highs just to normalize talking about money and just taking away some of the stigma that surrounds debt. We really encourage people to talk about and think about what it is that a rich life means to them. So I would argue that rich really is not about what's in your bank account. It's about what makes you happy and fulfilled in meaningful and sustainable ways. One thing we see is that over and above how much income people earn, it really matters how they think about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Your second money tip is to treat money as a tool, but again, you are reframing the conversation here.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. So I think very often, people treat money as an end in itself. So much of financial planning, for example, surrounds how to get more money. So if we shift the conversation to be about how to get more happiness, then we start thinking of money not as an end in itself, but as a tool, kind of pathway for getting to happiness. We do know that people who have more money tend to be happier than those who have less, but this is mainly because those people with more money tend to be more able to meet their expenses and stay out of debt. In reality, the amount of money that you have really matters less than what you do with it and the key here is figuring out how to use money as a tool to boost your mental health and happiness.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This holds true whether you have a little money or a lot of money. In some of our recent data, we're seeing just how consistently these ideas hold up across the whole spectrum of income. For example, we know from research that people tend to get more satisfaction from buying time. For example, buying some help with childcare or a meal delivery service can really pay dividends in terms of life satisfaction. And from our latest data from Happy Money, we're actually seeing that this relationship holds true again, even for people who are living paycheck to paycheck, kind of struggling to make ends meet.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
It's quite a consistent principal and even more consistent, we see that people who give, who use their money to benefit others, tend to experience greater happiness. This is what we see, remarkably, even for people below the poverty line. This relationship holds true all the way across the income spectrum. At the end of the day, that's really why we created Happy Money, which is to help people use their money in ways that support their wellbeing and happiness and also allow them to build healthier and more mindful habits more broadly around their finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because some of the examples you just gave like ordering in dinner are things that we generally think of as splurges and things that we can cut out when we're trying to get control of our budgets, but we shouldn't maybe make those assumptions.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's exactly right. In our research, we see that many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress, a lot of time stress... Buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has this changed during the pandemic? Do you have any data on that? I'm curious.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. We're just beginning to fully explore this question of how these principles might've been altered through the pandemic. But I think a particularly interesting one to focus on at this stage of the pandemic is giving, because we know that many people did not give as much money as they usually would to charity during the pandemic. Many charities are really hurting right now, and so as we kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel and maybe experience some gratitude over having made it this far and still being alive, still kind of being okay. I think this is a wonderful time to pay it forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's move on to the third one. I think this is my favorite one. Track your happy spends versus sad spends.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. So I always tell people to track what you spend and how it makes you feel. So people are used to tracking their spending to try to restrain their spending or know how much they've got, but I say add on how it makes you feel so you can actually decide what's worth it to you and what's not. So really pay attention to how these purchases affect your mood and then you can start to identify what I call happy spends, these spends that really make you happy. And sad spends, maybe things that used to make you happy but aren't really paying off in terms of your happiness anymore.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This is going to help you ask yourself what actually brings you real joy and what do you regret by the next day? I would argue that when you shift your spending toward what makes you truly happy... That might be paying off debt, or savoring a treat, helping a friend donating to charity. That can enable you to make better, happier decisions around your own wellbeing and it's also a great opportunity to start thinking about investing in your future self. What are the purchases that make you happy when you first acquire them, but also still continue to provide happiness dividends going forward. I think that's a really fascinating issue. Helping people gain better self insight into what makes them happy starts with just paying attention in the moment to what's providing you joy and what's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
I was so glad to see this next one on the list because it really resonates with so many of us coming out of this pandemic. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis for me on celebrate along the way, because we really don't know what's going to happen.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. I mean, this experience of the past year has really made me appreciate the value of just celebrating what's good in the moment. So, I recommend when people are tackling a big financial challenge or big life challenge, start with small manageable changes. Achievable changes. And then do take the time to celebrate those little milestones along the way. So it isn't necessarily about just achieving your final goal and that's the only time you should celebrate. Celebrate each piece of it. So break your big goals into more bite sized pieces and these small steps are going to be a lot easier to form into sticky sorts of habits. Just to give some examples, you could start with little changes like saving $10 a week, or maybe giving $15 to a charitable organization that needs your support, or try putting an extra $50 a month toward your credit card debt.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
These are potentially more achievable changes that over time can actually have a really big impact on your overall happiness. So what we've seen in our data at Happy Money is that even building up a little bit of savings can go a long way in terms of people's life satisfaction. So we see that people with just $400 in emergency savings reported over 13% higher levels of life satisfaction compared to people who didn't have that cushion.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're removing that anxiety, right?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I think that's a huge part of it. So we see that when people have savings, it kind of acts as this cushion that protects them from some of the shocks of unexpected events in daily life and can also just reassure people that they're going to be a little bit insulated. I think that's one of the big lessons for me from the pandemic because we just don't know what the future holds. Save up some money now so you're ready for whatever surprises the future might have in store.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this last one, I think, is just so essential and I hope that people take the time and really take it seriously. And that is to take the time to deal with your feelings around money... Because we often get so caught up in life's day-to-day, we never stop and kind of examine how we're approaching money.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. And I think this is probably the most important tip. That we focus so much on the sort of objective financial challenges surrounding money itself but we have to also deal with the feelings that are hovering around those challenges. So thinking about this, we decided last year to introduce a new money, mindfulness and stress reduction program that we call Peace. Like peace and love. This free course is really neat because it incorporates cognitive behavioral therapy and psychology to help people understand and reduce the impact that financial stress is having on their lives. The fact that it's completely free was super important to me. This is something we are giving away to just help people deal with the financial stress that the past year has created.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
What we did was really to try to think about how could busy people fit this into their lives? As somebody who's got a full-time job and a kid I thought, 'Could I make this work even for me?' Each exercise is really broken down into these small digestible bites and everything is personalized to the individual and really designed to build skills for addressing stress levels. And going beyond just combating stress, we also wanted to think about the positive sides. So we've got a whole week that's devoted to just helping people promote more positive thoughts and actions. To learn how to amplify their positive emotions and get more joy out of the tiny pleasures of daily life like sitting in the sunshine or eating a piece of chocolate.

Bobbi Rebell:
We so needed all of these reminders. Where can people follow up with you and then follow you on all the socials?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Well, my number one tip would be to go over to happymoney.com\peace. There they can find more about our Peace program, this free six week program to help people decrease their stress levels. They can follow me on Twitter. I'm @DunnHappyLab. I would also just suggest checking out Happy Money more broadly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you feeling happier? Let's do a quick review of some of the concepts here. Okay. First of all, we want to make sure that we actually talk about money with other people. Not to other people by the way, with other people. And it doesn't mean revealing your personal data. It's more like finding comfort in the discussions and taking the stress out of mutual money decisions. So for example, if you make plans with friends to go out, think carefully not just about making sure the place that you go fits your budget, but also fits their budget. So one way to do this is to say that you're going to take control and you'll plan the event or the dining out or whatever you're doing, but give them a few choices. Make sure they're at kind of different price points and point that out to them and maybe in a casual way, be like, "We could splurge and do this, or we could be more budget friendly and do this," or somewhere in between. And you can gauge the reaction from that. It takes away the awkwardness.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the fact that Dr. Dunn talks about treating money as a tool, but not as an end in and of itself. So let's focus on how to get more happiness and how money can get us there. Letting go of the guilt when you buy time to boost happiness. So yeah, hire that babysitter and go on date night. I didn't do it a lot, but maybe I should have. All right track how you spend and how it makes you feel. This is going to help you identify happy spends versus sad spends. I love the way she puts that. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis on celebrating the milestones along the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
And finally, take the time to deal with your feelings about money. By the way, if you're looking for more info about happiness, definitely check out my recent episode with Meaghan Murphy, where we talk about specific ways to be happier and make sure to also read Meaghan's book, Your Fully Charged Life, which is a great summer beach read. You'll love the cover by the way, it's so... The cover itself makes you happy.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you enjoy this episode, I would love your help. Make sure you are following it on the platform of your choice and make sure you share it with friends. One easy way to do that is just take a screenshot and post it on your social media and of course, please tag me so I can thank you and I can also share it as well. Growing the show is really hard and your help means the world to me. On Instagram, by the way, I'm @bobbirebell1. B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L and then the number one. I highly recommend Dr. Dunn's free Peace course. So go to our show notes at bobbirebell.com under podcast for details. I also provide summaries and full transcripts of the show in the show notes. So please definitely use that resource. It's there for you. It's also free. And of course, we are so thankful and so happy that Dr. Elizabeth Dunn was able to join us and help us all be happy financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by [Steve Stewart 00:18:04]. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by [Ashley Wall 00:18:09]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts . Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Kim Rittberg
 

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Full Transcript:


 
Money Tips to Avoid Getting Dumped by Your Insurance Company and other Home Owner Tips with Anne-Lyse Wealth

Anne-Lyse, author of Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids, shares her money tips for home buyers as well as her experiences and lessons to not get taken advantage of in business- especially from people you think you can trust.

Anne-Lyse-Wealth-Main-Instagram-Dream-Of-Legacy.png

Anne-Lyse’s Money Story

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure, absolutely. When my husband and I were getting ready to buy a first home, we were looking in a specific neighborhood. And after a little while we found our home. And we went through the normal process to get a loan. We got a home inspection, and we were excited. We were going to become homeowners. We had our first child. Then we had two other kids. And one day, we decided to go out of town for the weekend.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
As first-time homeowners, we didn't know that when you leave, even if it's for a couple of days, it's probably a good idea to shut down the water at your house. So we came back to a...

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, just pause right there. I don't think a lot of people do know that, because that's a big tip right there. We live in an apartment. We don't shut off all of our water. I don't even know if that's possible in an apartment, but this is certainly news to me. When you leave a house, you're supposed to turn off the whole water system. Not just not leave a faucet running.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes. It's advice to shut off the water system, and we didn't know until this happened to us. When we came back, our house was... I mean, the main floor, which was the kitchen, there was water damage. It had gone all the way down to our basement. We had to redo the entire main level of the floors. We had to redo the basement. And it all happened because the water line connected to the dishwasher, there was an issue there. And then we were out of town for a couple of days. So by the time we came back, it was a complete mess.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had to move out of our house for about I want to say six weeks. At the time, we had twin babies and a three-year-old. It took a while for the house to be renovated. We stayed in temporary housing for a little bit. And luckily, our insurance company covered most of the costs, but we found out that they weren't going to renew our policy. Two lessons there. The first one is, well, first of all, make sure that you shut off your water when you are leaving for more than a day.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And then the second one is before signing up for insurance, you talk to your insurance company and understand their policies. Because what we found out is the prior year, there was hailstorm in our neighborhood and our roof was damaged. The insurance company had replaced our roof, so that was two claims in two years. But those were the only claims we've had in about, I think, four years. The policy was if you have two claims in the past five years, well, you need to find a new insurance company.

Anne-Lyse-Wealth-Twitter-Quote-#3-Dream-of-Legacy.png

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And even though those were the only things that we've ever had, we had a really hard time finding another company to cover our insurance. As a result of that, our premium went up by, I think, five or six times. My advice is make sure that you understand the policies that your insurance company has. And also like for us, when we finally got out of that five-year range, we signed up for a company that allowed two incidents to happen without basically cutting you off after five years.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
So now we have a company that will let you have two incidents in two, three years as opposed to five.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one thinks about that kind of thing, so I think that's a great lesson. What other lessons do you have as a first time home buyer for first time home buyers?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When we went through the process to get our loan approved, we went through the inspection. There was some initial structural damage that had been fixed by the previous owner, and we received a letter from the engineer. The engineer came back and provided a letter to say that everything was back in order. But when it was time for us to sell our home I want to say five, six years later, we were in the process of getting everything done. We had an offer on the table.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one. It turns out that the structural damage was not fixed. It was a much bigger problem than we thought, and the buyer pulled their offer. It was the same structural engineer that we had hired a couple of months prior to make sure that everything was back on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think here the lesson is, and nothing against real estate investors, but when you do buy a home, just consider bringing in your own structural engineer. But when you do buy from an investor, pay even more attention to everything that's going on within the house. Because in this situation, they didn't really fix the problem. They put a bandaid on it and it got worse with time. As a result of that, we ended up selling the house for $100,000 less than we were expected to.

Bobbi Rebell:
It was the same inspector, so he changed his report?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
It wasn't an inspector. It was a structural engineer. The inspector cleared the house, but he recommended that we get a letter from the structural engineer that had done the work. The structural engineer came back, provided a report. But then a few years down the line when we were getting ready to sell the home, we hired another engineer to make sure that we were on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When the buyer asked that we provided the number of the engineer, we didn't have a problem because we knew that everything was good. But the engineer came back and gave them a report, refused to show us a report saying that we had to also pay the fee so that they would give us the report. And after that, the buyer just walked away and we hired another company. And that's when we realized that no, it was going to cost a lot more to fix the problem.

Bobbi Rebell:
The same structural engineer changed his story?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you confront them about this?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, when this happened, he was like, "Well, I came probably..." I think it was maybe six months or a year prior things changed, so we couldn't really prove that he had given us a different scenario. He had recommended that we do work. We did the work. After that, he refused to show us the report. To this day, I haven't seen the report that he gave to the buyer.

Anne-Lyse’s Money Lesson + Money Tip

Anne-Lyse-Wealth-Twitter-Quote-#1-Dream-of-Legacy.png

I think the tip for us is if you do buy a house that is a preexisting home, it's not a bad idea to go one step further than just hiring a home inspector, getting a structural engineer. In our case, I think it would have been better to get two different engineers so we could make an educated decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which seems expensive in the short-term, but clearly it costs you in the long-term not doing that, right?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Exactly. I think I would have gladly paid the extra $500 and save $100,000.


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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
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Bobbi Rebell:
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Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had an offer on the table. We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you wondering what that surprise was? Well, get ready to learn so much in this episode with Anne-Lyse. She has a wealth coach, a writer, and host of The Dreamers Podcast. She's also the founder of dreamoflegacy.com, a platform dedicated to inspiring millennials to build wealth with purpose, as well as the author of Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview, Anne-Lyse is very honest about the mistakes that she and her husband made with their home and all the grownup responsibilities that came with residential ownership. And here's the thing, even though she felt she should have done certain things that might have saved her from a lot of financial pain, the so-called mistakes were things that frankly all of us do, or in some cases, don't do. Please listen carefully because I don't want anyone else to get hurt the way she and her family did.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now later in the interview, things get even more real when Anne-Lyse shares details of how her father lost everything he had worked for, and she mentions it in the book, but she doesn't go into a lot of details. In our interview, I was really moved that she felt comfortable enough to share the details that weren't revealed in the book, and I am truly grateful for it. You are all going to benefit from it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Listening to this interview will be time very well spent. Here is Anne-Lyse. Anne-Lyse, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Hi, Bobbi. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm excited to talk in a few minutes about your book, Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids. But first, I wanted you to come on and talk about your experience buying a new home and sharing some of your tips for new home buyers, because that is something so many people are doing right now. Give us some context though first, Anne-Lyse. Tell us what happened to you and then we'll get to your tips.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure, absolutely. When my husband and I were getting ready to buy a first home, we were looking in a specific neighborhood. And after a little while we found our home. And we went through the normal process to get a loan. We got a home inspection, and we were excited. We were going to become homeowners. We had our first child. Then we had two other kids. And one day, we decided to go out of town for the weekend.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
As first-time homeowners, we didn't know that when you leave, even if it's for a couple of days, it's probably a good idea to shut down the water at your house. So we came back to a...

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, just pause right there. I don't think a lot of people do know that, because that's a big tip right there. We live in an apartment. We don't shut off all of our water. I don't even know if that's possible in an apartment, but this is certainly news to me. When you leave a house, you're supposed to turn off the whole water system. Not just not leave a faucet running.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes. It's advice to shut off the water system, and we didn't know until this happened to us. When we came back, our house was... I mean, the main floor, which was the kitchen, there was water damage. It had gone all the way down to our basement. We had to redo the entire main level of the floors. We had to redo the basement. And it all happened because the water line connected to the dishwasher, there was an issue there. And then we were out of town for a couple of days. So by the time we came back, it was a complete mess.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had to move out of our house for about I want to say six weeks. At the time, we had twin babies and a three-year-old. It took a while for the house to be renovated. We stayed in temporary housing for a little bit. And luckily, our insurance company covered most of the costs, but we found out that they weren't going to renew our policy. Two lessons there. The first one is, well, first of all, make sure that you shut off your water when you are leaving for more than a day.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And then the second one is before signing up for insurance, you talk to your insurance company and understand their policies. Because what we found out is the prior year, there was hailstorm in our neighborhood and our roof was damaged. The insurance company had replaced our roof, so that was two claims in two years. But those were the only claims we've had in about, I think, four years. The policy was if you have two claims in the past five years, well, you need to find a new insurance company.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And even though those were the only things that we've ever had, we had a really hard time finding another company to cover our insurance. As a result of that, our premium went up by, I think, five or six times. My advice is make sure that you understand the policies that your insurance company has. And also like for us, when we finally got out of that five-year range, we signed up for a company that allowed two incidents to happen without basically cutting you off after five years.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
So now we have a company that will let you have two incidents in two, three years as opposed to five.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one thinks about that kind of thing, so I think that's a great lesson. What other lessons do you have as a first time home buyer for first time home buyers?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When we went through the process to get our loan approved, we went through the inspection. There was some initial structural damage that had been fixed by the previous owner, and we received a letter from the engineer. The engineer came back and provided a letter to say that everything was back in order. But when it was time for us to sell our home I want to say five, six years later, we were in the process of getting everything done. We had an offer on the table.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one. It turns out that the structural damage was not fixed. It was a much bigger problem than we thought, and the buyer pulled their offer. It was the same structural engineer that we had hired a couple of months prior to make sure that everything was back on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think here the lesson is, and nothing against real estate investors, but when you do buy a home, just consider bringing in your own structural engineer. But when you do buy from an investor, pay even more attention to everything that's going on within the house. Because in this situation, they didn't really fix the problem. They put a bandaid on it and it got worse with time. As a result of that, we ended up selling the house for $100,000 less than we were expected to.

Bobbi Rebell:
It was the same inspector, so he changed his report?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
It wasn't an inspector. It was a structural engineer. The inspector cleared the house, but he recommended that we get a letter from the structural engineer that had done the work. The structural engineer came back, provided a report. But then a few years down the line when we were getting ready to sell the home, we hired another engineer to make sure that we were on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When the buyer asked that we provided the number of the engineer, we didn't have a problem because we knew that everything was good. But the engineer came back and gave them a report, refused to show us a report saying that we had to also pay the fee so that they would give us the report. And after that, the buyer just walked away and we hired another company. And that's when we realized that no, it was going to cost a lot more to fix the problem.

Bobbi Rebell:
The same structural engineer changed his story?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you confront them about this?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, when this happened, he was like, "Well, I came probably..." I think it was maybe six months or a year prior things changed, so we couldn't really prove that he had given us a different scenario. He had recommended that we do work. We did the work. After that, he refused to show us the report. To this day, I haven't seen the report that he gave to the buyer.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson and the tip from that?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think the tip for us is if you do buy a house that is a preexisting home, it's not a bad idea to go one step further than just hiring a home inspector, getting a structural engineer. In our case, I think it would have been better to get two different engineers so we could make an educated decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which seems expensive in the short-term, but clearly it costs you in the long-term not doing that, right?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Exactly. I think I would have gladly paid the extra $500 and save $100,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I think so. This breaks my heart. It unfortunately reminds me of some things that you share in your book, which I mentioned at the top of the episode. It's called Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids. But in that, you recall a lot of your family experiences and the money experiences of your parents. Can you share a little bit of that, because I believe there's a lot of tips we can learn from that?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure. I think there's so much to talk about here. But if I want to focus on the essential, one thing that I learned from my parents growing up is to live below your means.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that was especially important in your community. Can you talk about that and the cultural pressures that they did have?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Oh, absolutely. My parents had five biological children, but I grew up in a house full of cousins. A bunch of my cousins lived with us because in my culture, the person who makes it is expected to take care of the family. My parents were not only taking care of us financially, but they were financially providing for cousins and even like their siblings. There's a lot of financial pressure that comes with getting to a good place financially.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think one of the reason why my parents always lived below their means, and also just preparing for the unexpected. I'll share here a couple of instances where that will really help them and our family. One of them is... Sometime in the '90s, my father, he had a business partner that he had worked with for a while, and they had a couple of businesses together, or actually I should say, so he thought, because it turns out that...

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I don't know if you've ever watched the movie Catch Me If You Can, but his business partner was actually a master at deceiving. There were a couple of businesses that they had started and he basically robbed my father of a significant amount of money. To be fully transparent, that was in the '90s and it's the equivalent of $700,000 in today's dollars.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow!

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes, and that was very complicated schemes that his business partner did. Overnight your retirement funds or some of your retirement funds disappeared. It took a few years for my father to realize what this man was knowing, because he was not only his business partner, he was also his lawyer. So that definitely impacted my parents' bottom line. But because they had been living below their means, they were able to sustain that challenge.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Later on, my mother was diagnosed with a long-term illness and she kind of overnight needed 24-hour care. My parents live in a country where insurance or disability insurance is not really a thing. You have to finance it yourself. Now all of a sudden, my mother was working, so it's down to just one person working, and now you have to pay for very heavy medical fees. If my parents hadn't lived below their means, they wouldn't have been able to.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow! This is a lot. I'm so happy that they did do that. What is the tip from that, I guess, beyond obviously you want to live below your means?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, that's the main tip, but I think just in general... This is more like a general tip. You just have to double and triple check and even the people who are supposed to be your advisors, whether it's your financial or your lawyer, you just have to make sure that they are serving your best interests and you cannot blindly trust them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Don't blindly trust somebody. Yes. Check the paperwork. Even if someone else's is doing it and you think that they're taking care of everything and you trust them, it's still important to get in there and understand what's going on yourself. This has been wonderful. Anne-Lyse, where can people find out more about you and about Anne-Lyse Wealth?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure. I am at dreamoflegacy.com if you want to visit me there and sign up for my newsletter. You can also find out more about my book, which is Dream of Legacy, on my website or on Amazon. And I'm also on Instagram and Twitter @annelysewealth, which is A-N-N-E-L-Y-S-E-W-E-A-L-T-H.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for sharing so much. I really loved having you.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, grownups, let's review just some of the highlights from this interview with Anne-Lyse. Be careful when you buy insurance. Actually read and make sure you understand all the coverage limits. And if you don't fully understand it, take it to someone who can walk you through how things would actually play out in different scenarios. You don't think you're going to have those multiple claims, but, well, that's what insurance is for, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Double and triple check with a home inspectors and engineers so you do know the actual true status of your home's structural health and make sure you document everything. Just because you think you can trust someone like a business partner who is a dear friend and, in the case of Anne-Lyse's father, you're a long time lawyer, you still need to be checking the numbers. Do not trust blindly. That's a harsh lesson, but yeah. Be aware of cultural money pressures.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, Anne-Lyse talked about this a little bit, but I strongly recommend everyone read her book, Dream of Legacy, because in it she talks about the cultural norms that can often lead to damaging financial decisions and habits in the black community. Every culture is different, of course. But whatever your heritage is, it's important to identify and understand how it impacts the money habits for you and for those around you. I would love to hear how you think the environment, culture, and even the people around you impact your money decisions.

Bobbi Rebell:
DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. And if you aren't already subscribed, please sign up for my now weekly money tips newsletter. You're going to get insights about our interviews, previews of upcoming Clubhouse sessions, and links to relevant news and information to lead your best brought up life. Big thanks to Anne-Lyse of Anne-Lyse Wealth for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast's show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
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Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Money Tips to Avoid Financial Chaos with Micro-Empires’ Jennifer Grimson

Our grownup lives sometimes take a turn for the worst at the time we least expect it. Jennifer Grimson experienced it all from filing for bankruptcy twice, becoming AirBNB pro and making some tough decisions to downsize her family's lifestyle in order to become a millionaire. 

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Jennifer’s Money Story + Money Tips To Handle Financial Chaos

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, yes I have. So have many people. So my story is that I lost everything twice. So no job, no car, no place to live, two kids to raise, and chapter 13 bankruptcy. And that happened to me twice, once at the age of 29 and once at the age of 41, and the second time that it happened, I realized that I needed to do something to rebuild in a way that would protect me. So for me, that meant building small pockets of wealth, finger quotes, and security. And that's what the show that I have, which is called Micro Empires, is about, is just basically creating these small pockets so that if anything is taken away, you aren't left completely empty handed and at a loss of what to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those two bankruptcies, different stories each time, give us just a little sense of what caused those, because a lot of people go, well, how did that happen? I mean, the first time you had a one and a three-year-old. What happened?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, the bankruptcies were are actually caused by the same thing, but how it happened to me was that I was in a very contentious divorce. So my ex-husband sued me twenty-five times in 10 years, and I amassed over $500,000 in attorney's fees. And I can go into great detail about that, but I don't think we have time for it, but in my case, it wasn't that I purchased a home and went in upside down, or I bought expensive cars, or had terrible spending habits. It's that I was running from somebody who was punishing me financially through the court system, which is another entire story altogether.

Jennifer Grimson:
But chapter 13 was a way for me to escape the lawsuits, and the first one helped me preserve the home that I lived in. So it was probably the first lesson I got in there are tools out there for you to use to help you financially. Now, chapter 13 bankruptcy is no fun. You pay your creditors back. Your credit is ruined for 10 years. You have to live on cash. It is not a great existence, but it did release me from lawsuits. So I did that not only once, but twice. But on top of everything, the second time I found myself without anything, no car, no job, no place to live. What I had done then was to turn my financial wellbeing over to someone else, namely the person that I was in a relationship with, so that when that relationship ended, I was really left with nothing.

Jennifer Grimson:
And as shameful as I felt that was, I decided a year ago, when I decided to start the show, that I would share the story because I knew I wasn't the only one. I think women do it more than men. I think it happens a lot, and there's a lot of shame in it when really the shame should be honestly on the other person, who's kind of not being fair about that. But at any rate, it taught me a hard, hard lesson and I really didn't get the message until I was about 41, that no matter what I did, I was going to have to rebuild in a different way than I had done in the past.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now it is a decade after that second bankruptcy. Just to catch people up, you became a real estate investor.

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Jennifer Grimson:
Yes, I did. So from 41 years old, the following three years it took me to correct my credit, which is a journey in and of itself. And then the first thing I did was to purchase a home, which was a miracle. And I walk through how I made that happen. And then through house hacking and short term rental, in four years, I created $1.4 million in income producing investments.

Jennifer Grimson:
And there's a reason they're called income producing investments. I didn't have $1.4 million. I had mortgages, I had overhead, I had all of the things, but what I had done was created, I actually had three properties that were Airbnb. And those properties all had their own incomes, their own empires, on top of a corporate job. So that way, I had at least four areas of income, and then I created other areas of income, as well. So I kept creating these little pockets of income.

Jennifer Grimson:
And then that's morphed. I've moved into investing into multi-family and other things. But again, by using tools, tools that I had at the ready. So I didn't realize, when I rebuilt the second time, I did it with a W-2 really and some grit. So other than that, I mean, I didn't have a great investment that I made a ton of money off of or anything like that. I simply just used the tools at hand, which are part of why I want to do the show, to share what's available to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know you don't do Airbnb investing right now, but just quickly, give us some insider secrets and tips for getting started with Airbnb. What did you learn there?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, I learned a lot. So first and foremost, I started doing it in 2014 in Nashville, Tennessee, where no one was doing it at the time. And that was a great time to do it. So my advice to anybody is anytime you see an opportunity, and maybe it's something new and edgy, and you're willing to take the risk, and risk, you know, I talk about risk a lot, it has to be a risk that you're comfortable with, I say, go for it. I needed to do everything in micro steps. Also part of why I do the things the way that I do. I'm not a huge risk taker.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I had my home. I started renting it out on the weekends through Airbnb and quickly realized that this could be a real way for me to not only cover my mortgage and expenses, but a way for me to create an income. My best advice for people, if you're getting involved in Airbnb and you're just starting out and you're just a normal person, like you're not a person who has hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank or millions to lose, I say, go find an emerging market and buy a really, really affordable home. Your money in real estate is made on the purchase. So if you purchase high, you're not really probably going to make a lot of money off it, no matter what your plan is with it. You've got to find a way to purchase low.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I purchased in evolving neighborhoods. I took a chance in that. And I went ahead and lived in the properties, which allowed me to get in there for very little money. I furnished them myself. I managed them myself, until such time that they were up and running and I was able to hire other people to do that. Those would be my basic tips on Airbnb. I could talk about that forever, but those are sort of the basics.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hands-on first, then hand it off. Okay, so that was a nice little bonus tangent for everybody. But the real reason I asked you to come on was to tell us your tips on how to handle financial chaos, which of course has to start with actually recognizing financial chaos. Like, there was a cereal incident in your car, with your children.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. So financial chaos is a really sad, scary place to live and to be. And I lived in it for many, many years, and I didn't know what I was living in. I like to describe it to people, I have this metaphor, like imagine you're living in a home, there's no lights in the home, and it's a hoarder. You're living in a home with a hoarder, and there's all this stuff piled up, but you don't know it's there, but you feel like something's wrong. You're not really sure what it is.

Jennifer Grimson:
And one day, someone turns the light switch on and you see all of the chaos, all of the mayhem, and that person who's creating it, whether it's you or potentially your partner, runs over and shuts that light off, and says, "Oh, never mind, never mind." You can't unsee it. So in my case, I lived in a situation where I was, to simplify it, I was a saver and my ex-husband was a spender. He had a lot of emotional attachment to money and how it made him feel. And we were living in absolute dire straights, things like he would get angry if I bought the generic brand cereal. We were so broke, I was bouncing checks to buy groceries. I would go to three different grocery stores to find the best deals.

Jennifer Grimson:
I took my children shopping one night, like I did normally, so I had them with me in the evening, little babies in diapers, in and out of the car. We'd go to three different grocery stores to save the money. And then on the way home, we're in California on Highway 101, I pull over on the side of the road, I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos. You're risking your entire life to keep someone happy about something that has to really do with money and your relationship with money. So that's financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
And when I talk to people about their money, and it's very, very personal. People will tell you about their sex lives before they'll tell you about their money, which is kind of crazy, but they'll explain things to me that they've become accustomed to because they've been living in it for so long. But that is sort of the truth of it, and recognizing it, as well. My advice is to look at, do you have a shared approach to money? Do you and your partner have a shared approach? Do you find it really difficult to go without the nice to haves? Or does your partner? Do you feel sick whenever you have to talk about money? And then examining what wealthy might mean to you, also a good tool in figuring out where you are on the money spectrum.

Bobbi Rebell:
Once we've identified that we are in financial chaos, which probably more of us are in than we realize, give us some tips to calm that financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, if you're in a partnership with someone who is creating the chaos, and it's not yourself, because sometimes it could be yourself, and there's a little test that I offer in the episode that I did this week, but probably the first thing is to sit down and have a conversation with that partner. Chances are, that may not go well if you've never had a conversation before, and there are therapists and books and things that can help you with that, but it's really taking a hard look at your own relationship with money. I happen to call it money culture, and I have a free ebook, as well, that walks you through like where are you with money and how do you feel and why do you do the things that you do?

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Jennifer Grimson:
Hopefully if you can sit down and have a conversation with a partner and that person is able to come to grips with their own relationship with money, perhaps saying, "Yeah, I do these things because it makes me feel loved," or, "I didn't get this as a child," or, "It makes me feel like a better person when I have expensive things," you can start to work through that and come up with a plan together about how money is tied directly to identity and security. And so examining that and looking at it as a whole and saying is our identity more important than our security? Do we have to have a Mercedes-Benz outside and a really expensive house that we can't afford? Or is it better for us to have a little bit less and feel safe? That's what it is for me, anyway. I have to feel safe when it comes to money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a lot of us feel that way. So that's if a partner's involved. What if it's on you? What if there is financial chaos in your life and you just need to do something about it? What are your tips?

Jennifer Grimson:
So one of the things I say is try to go 30 days without purchasing anything above food and shelter, and see if you can do it, see how it makes you feel, write it down, those sorts of things. I think the root of it, if you're in it and you're causing it, is that you've got to figure out why you're doing it. So for me, my money lessons, my money culture, has been based in fear because I've been in these really extreme situations twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also sometimes give people some very tough love that they do not want to hear about big life decisions about their lifestyle overall.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I say a lot that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This is interesting to me. Met with a woman recently and she said, "I'm really struggling. I've been out of work." She's somebody I knew years ago in the corporate world. She'd been out of work for a long time. She was struggling to find a new corporate job, and let's face it, age-ism is a real thing. And there isn't much I can do to help her with that, other than networking. But I said, "Well, let's take a look at what you've got." And she's got this amazing home in a phenomenal location here in Nashville. She's got an outbuilding, an apartment. She already has an apartment.

Jennifer Grimson:
I said, "Well, you could turn that into an Airbnb." This is just an example. And obviously with all the experience I have, I was even willing to help her with the marketing and tell her what works best and all the tips. And she was like, "Well, I don't want people at my house." And okay, you don't want people at your house. That's okay. But you're choosing your identity, I think, over your security. I didn't want people at my house, either, Bobbi. I was tired of people using my bathrooms and sleeping in my beds, but I cared more about my security.

Jennifer Grimson:
So maybe you don't want somebody living in your house. That's fine. Maybe you don't want to give up the expensive purses. That's fine. But are you going to be able to give up the travel, or are you going to be able to give up eating out, or are you going to be able to give up, or are you willing to live basically on the fringe of complete financial ruin day in and day out?

Jennifer Grimson:
So for me, the second time I lost everything, my kids were in private school. I was living in this beautiful neighborhood. My first thought was, how do I keep them in private school? How do I get an apartment in this neighborhood? How do I keep this lifestyle that I've been creating for them? And the truth was, I wasn't going to keep any of that. I needed to move out. I needed to live with my sister, on her generosity, for four months. I needed to look at different areas for them to go to school.

Jennifer Grimson:
And so grappling with the fact that you may need to give up what you've become accustomed to, to achieve freedom, is just a really important topic that we go into over and over again. Clinging to what you had may not be your path to freedom.



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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com, and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Jennifer Grimson:
We're in California on Highway 101. I pull over on the side of the road. I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there, pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends. As you heard, there was a point when Micro Empires podcast host Jennifer Grimson's life was truly in financial chaos. She can talk about it now, but literally pulling over to put generic cereal into brand name boxes so your husband won't know you saved money, that's really bananas, right? Jennifer talks candidly about her decisions to file for bankruptcy twice and the consequences of that tough decision. But she also gives some priceless tips on how we can first recognize when our financial lives are in chaos, because very often we are in the dark.

Bobbi Rebell:
And while it's not the primary focus of our interview, I did manage to sneak in some questions about maximizing your Airbnb properties and what makes a good investment. And you'll also hear why that's so relevant to Jennifer's story. Here is Jennifer Grimson. Jennifer Grimson, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jennifer Grimson:
Thank you so much for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am looking forward to speaking with you about your tips to handle financial chaos. That's why I brought you on, because it was a recent episode of your podcast, Micro Empires. But first, I want to hear a little bit more about your backstory because you have been through it all.

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, yes I have. So have many people. So my story is that I lost everything twice. So no job, no car, no place to live, two kids to raise, and chapter 13 bankruptcy. And that happened to me twice, once at the age of 29 and once at the age of 41, and the second time that it happened, I realized that I needed to do something to rebuild in a way that would protect me. So for me, that meant building small pockets of wealth, finger quotes, and security. And that's what the show that I have, which is called Micro Empires, is about, is just basically creating these small pockets so that if anything is taken away, you aren't left completely empty handed and at a loss of what to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those two bankruptcies, different stories each time, give us just a little sense of what caused those, because a lot of people go, well, how did that happen? I mean, the first time you had a one and a three-year-old. What happened?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, the bankruptcies were are actually caused by the same thing, but how it happened to me was that I was in a very contentious divorce. So my ex-husband sued me twenty-five times in 10 years, and I amassed over $500,000 in attorney's fees. And I can go into great detail about that, but I don't think we have time for it, but in my case, it wasn't that I purchased a home and went in upside down, or I bought expensive cars, or had terrible spending habits. It's that I was running from somebody who was punishing me financially through the court system, which is another entire story altogether.

Jennifer Grimson:
But chapter 13 was a way for me to escape the lawsuits, and the first one helped me preserve the home that I lived in. So it was probably the first lesson I got in there are tools out there for you to use to help you financially. Now, chapter 13 bankruptcy is no fun. You pay your creditors back. Your credit is ruined for 10 years. You have to live on cash. It is not a great existence, but it did release me from lawsuits. So I did that not only once, but twice. But on top of everything, the second time I found myself without anything, no car, no job, no place to live. What I had done then was to turn my financial wellbeing over to someone else, namely the person that I was in a relationship with, so that when that relationship ended, I was really left with nothing.

Jennifer Grimson:
And as shameful as I felt that was, I decided a year ago, when I decided to start the show, that I would share the story because I knew I wasn't the only one. I think women do it more than men. I think it happens a lot, and there's a lot of shame in it when really the shame should be honestly on the other person, who's kind of not being fair about that. But at any rate, it taught me a hard, hard lesson and I really didn't get the message until I was about 41, that no matter what I did, I was going to have to rebuild in a different way than I had done in the past.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now it is a decade after that second bankruptcy. Just to catch people up, you became a real estate investor.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yes, I did. So from 41 years old, the following three years it took me to correct my credit, which is a journey in and of itself. And then the first thing I did was to purchase a home, which was a miracle. And I walk through how I made that happen. And then through house hacking and short term rental, in four years, I created $1.4 million in income producing investments.

Jennifer Grimson:
And there's a reason they're called income producing investments. I didn't have $1.4 million. I had mortgages, I had overhead, I had all of the things, but what I had done was created, I actually had three properties that were Airbnb. And those properties all had their own incomes, their own empires, on top of a corporate job. So that way, I had at least four areas of income, and then I created other areas of income, as well. So I kept creating these little pockets of income.

Jennifer Grimson:
And then that's morphed. I've moved into investing into multi-family and other things. But again, by using tools, tools that I had at the ready. So I didn't realize, when I rebuilt the second time, I did it with a W-2 really and some grit. So other than that, I mean, I didn't have a great investment that I made a ton of money off of or anything like that. I simply just used the tools at hand, which are part of why I want to do the show, to share what's available to all of us.

Bobbi Rebell:
I know you don't do Airbnb investing right now, but just quickly, give us some insider secrets and tips for getting started with Airbnb. What did you learn there?

Jennifer Grimson:
Well, I learned a lot. So first and foremost, I started doing it in 2014 in Nashville, Tennessee, where no one was doing it at the time. And that was a great time to do it. So my advice to anybody is anytime you see an opportunity, and maybe it's something new and edgy, and you're willing to take the risk, and risk, you know, I talk about risk a lot, it has to be a risk that you're comfortable with, I say, go for it. I needed to do everything in micro steps. Also part of why I do the things the way that I do. I'm not a huge risk taker.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I had my home. I started renting it out on the weekends through Airbnb and quickly realized that this could be a real way for me to not only cover my mortgage and expenses, but a way for me to create an income. My best advice for people, if you're getting involved in Airbnb and you're just starting out and you're just a normal person, like you're not a person who has hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank or millions to lose, I say, go find an emerging market and buy a really, really affordable home. Your money in real estate is made on the purchase. So if you purchase high, you're not really probably going to make a lot of money off it, no matter what your plan is with it. You've got to find a way to purchase low.

Jennifer Grimson:
So I purchased in evolving neighborhoods. I took a chance in that. And I went ahead and lived in the properties, which allowed me to get in there for very little money. I furnished them myself. I managed them myself, until such time that they were up and running and I was able to hire other people to do that. Those would be my basic tips on Airbnb. I could talk about that forever, but those are sort of the basics.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hands-on first, then hand it off. Okay, so that was a nice little bonus tangent for everybody. But the real reason I asked you to come on was to tell us your tips on how to handle financial chaos, which of course has to start with actually recognizing financial chaos. Like, there was a cereal incident in your car, with your children.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. So financial chaos is a really sad, scary place to live and to be. And I lived in it for many, many years, and I didn't know what I was living in. I like to describe it to people, I have this metaphor, like imagine you're living in a home, there's no lights in the home, and it's a hoarder. You're living in a home with a hoarder, and there's all this stuff piled up, but you don't know it's there, but you feel like something's wrong. You're not really sure what it is.

Jennifer Grimson:
And one day, someone turns the light switch on and you see all of the chaos, all of the mayhem, and that person who's creating it, whether it's you or potentially your partner, runs over and shuts that light off, and says, "Oh, never mind, never mind." You can't unsee it. So in my case, I lived in a situation where I was, to simplify it, I was a saver and my ex-husband was a spender. He had a lot of emotional attachment to money and how it made him feel. And we were living in absolute dire straights, things like he would get angry if I bought the generic brand cereal. We were so broke, I was bouncing checks to buy groceries. I would go to three different grocery stores to find the best deals.

Jennifer Grimson:
I took my children shopping one night, like I did normally, so I had them with me in the evening, little babies in diapers, in and out of the car. We'd go to three different grocery stores to save the money. And then on the way home, we're in California on Highway 101, I pull over on the side of the road, I pop open the back of my SUV, and I'm standing there pouring the cheap cereal, the generic cereal, into the name brand boxes on the side of the freeway, as the cars are whizzing by, with my babies in the car. And there was a tiny voice in my head saying, "You know this is not normal, right? You realize this is crazy, don't you?" But I wasn't awake enough to hear it. The light switch had not gone on. I look back on that, and I think that's insane. That's chaos. You're risking your entire life to keep someone happy about something that has to really do with money and your relationship with money. So that's financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
And when I talk to people about their money, and it's very, very personal. People will tell you about their sex lives before they'll tell you about their money, which is kind of crazy, but they'll explain things to me that they've become accustomed to because they've been living in it for so long. But that is sort of the truth of it, and recognizing it, as well. My advice is to look at, do you have a shared approach to money? Do you and your partner have a shared approach? Do you find it really difficult to go without the nice to haves? Or does your partner? Do you feel sick whenever you have to talk about money? And then examining what wealthy might mean to you, also a good tool in figuring out where you are on the money spectrum.

Bobbi Rebell:
Once we've identified that we are in financial chaos, which probably more of us are in than we realize, give us some tips to calm that financial chaos.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, if you're in a partnership with someone who is creating the chaos, and it's not yourself, because sometimes it could be yourself, and there's a little test that I offer in the episode that I did this week, but probably the first thing is to sit down and have a conversation with that partner. Chances are, that may not go well if you've never had a conversation before, and there are therapists and books and things that can help you with that, but it's really taking a hard look at your own relationship with money. I happen to call it money culture, and I have a free ebook, as well, that walks you through like where are you with money and how do you feel and why do you do the things that you do?

Jennifer Grimson:
Hopefully if you can sit down and have a conversation with a partner and that person is able to come to grips with their own relationship with money, perhaps saying, "Yeah, I do these things because it makes me feel loved," or, "I didn't get this as a child," or, "It makes me feel like a better person when I have expensive things," you can start to work through that and come up with a plan together about how money is tied directly to identity and security. And so examining that and looking at it as a whole and saying is our identity more important than our security? Do we have to have a Mercedes-Benz outside and a really expensive house that we can't afford? Or is it better for us to have a little bit less and feel safe? That's what it is for me, anyway. I have to feel safe when it comes to money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think a lot of us feel that way. So that's if a partner's involved. What if it's on you? What if there is financial chaos in your life and you just need to do something about it? What are your tips?

Jennifer Grimson:
So one of the things I say is try to go 30 days without purchasing anything above food and shelter, and see if you can do it, see how it makes you feel, write it down, those sorts of things. I think the root of it, if you're in it and you're causing it, is that you've got to figure out why you're doing it. So for me, my money lessons, my money culture, has been based in fear because I've been in these really extreme situations twice.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also sometimes give people some very tough love that they do not want to hear about big life decisions about their lifestyle overall.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah. I say a lot that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This is interesting to me. Met with a woman recently and she said, "I'm really struggling. I've been out of work." She's somebody I knew years ago in the corporate world. She'd been out of work for a long time. She was struggling to find a new corporate job, and let's face it, age-ism is a real thing. And there isn't much I can do to help her with that, other than networking. But I said, "Well, let's take a look at what you've got." And she's got this amazing home in a phenomenal location here in Nashville. She's got an outbuilding, an apartment. She already has an apartment.

Jennifer Grimson:
I said, "Well, you could turn that into an Airbnb." This is just an example. And obviously with all the experience I have, I was even willing to help her with the marketing and tell her what works best and all the tips. And she was like, "Well, I don't want people at my house." And okay, you don't want people at your house. That's okay. But you're choosing your identity, I think, over your security. I didn't want people at my house, either, Bobbi. I was tired of people using my bathrooms and sleeping in my beds, but I cared more about my security.

Jennifer Grimson:
So maybe you don't want somebody living in your house. That's fine. Maybe you don't want to give up the expensive purses. That's fine. But are you going to be able to give up the travel, or are you going to be able to give up eating out, or are you going to be able to give up, or are you willing to live basically on the fringe of complete financial ruin day in and day out?

Jennifer Grimson:
So for me, the second time I lost everything, my kids were in private school. I was living in this beautiful neighborhood. My first thought was, how do I keep them in private school? How do I get an apartment in this neighborhood? How do I keep this lifestyle that I've been creating for them? And the truth was, I wasn't going to keep any of that. I needed to move out. I needed to live with my sister, on her generosity, for four months. I needed to look at different areas for them to go to school.

Jennifer Grimson:
And so grappling with the fact that you may need to give up what you've become accustomed to, to achieve freedom, is just a really important topic that we go into over and over again. Clinging to what you had may not be your path to freedom.

Bobbi Rebell:
This has been so wonderful. Tell us where people can follow up with you. Of course, everybody needs to subscribe to the Micro Empires podcast.

Jennifer Grimson:
Yeah, the podcast, of course. My website is micro-empires.com. I'm on all the socials, either by Micro Empires or Jennifer Grimson. I have a free book. It's 28 pages. You can download it at my website. And I'm also creating a course called You Don't Have to Be Wealthy to Build Wealth. So I hope that will be really helpful for people. It's really for folks that are just kind of starting out, because I get asked the same questions over and over again. You know, I may not be the only person who's gone through this, but for a lot of folks who I hear, it's too late to start over, et cetera, et cetera, I think I'm a good example of somebody who went through it more than once, and later in life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Jennifer Grimson:
Thank you, Bobbi. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, let's review some of Jennifer's tips from the interview. First of all, look, bankruptcy is a serious decision, but it can be a tool to help in the most dire financial situations. So think about it carefully, but know that it might be right in some extreme situations. Don't turn your financial wellbeing over to someone else completely, even if that is someone that you are in a relationship with and you love and you believe will last forever. And I hope it does. But sometimes when a relationship ends, you can end up like Jennifer, with nothing. Just think about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Jennifer set up her real estate as income producing investments. She had three Airbnbs with their own incomes that were separate, in addition to her W-2 job. So think about that when you are working on different side hustles or other ventures.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you find yourself in financial chaos and it involves a partner, make sure you sit down and try to have a conversation about it. Think about having them come to grips with their relationship with money and what is driving their decisions that are impacting both of you. Come up with a plan together. If you and you alone are the cause of the financial chaos, well, Jennifer suggests trying, for example, to go 30 days with just the most basic expenses. We're talking food and shelter, and maybe write down any time you stray. See how it makes you feel.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, figure out why you are doing it. Is it about identity, security, validation from others? Figure out what is your money culture based on? For Jennifer, it's based on fear of having to start over financially yet again.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, I'd love to hear what you think of this episode. Have you ever found yourself in financial chaos? I would love to hear your reaction to this episode and maybe your stories. DM me on Instagram at @BobbiRebell1, and for previews of upcoming episodes and news that is relevant to our grownup lives, please subscribe to my newsletter. You can do so on my website, bobbirebell.com. Big thanks to Micro Empire's podcast host Jennifer Grimson for her fantastic advice and for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media, and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself, as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we've got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

How to be Less Stressed Out About Money with YNAB’s Jesse Mecham

Jesse Mecham, found of You Need a Budget joins us with a fantastic list of ways we can be a lot less stressed out about money, communicate better about money with out loved ones, and in the end feel and be more in control of our finances. 

Jesse’s Money Tips



Bobbi Rebell:
You are the founder, CEO, and creator, creative mind, I should say, behind You Need a Budget, affectionately known by many as YNAB. Congratulations on all the success of this product, and really, it's more than a product. It's really a whole suite of tools to help grownups.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're focused on anyone that thinks at some moment in time, "I think I might need a budget," and then we try and convince them that a budget is fun and useful and productive. Then we just teach them kind of a new way of thinking about their money and have them go on their way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the backstory of this really started with you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. I was the first one to realize that I needed a budget, at least that I knew, and my very new wife and I, we were both just newlyweds, broke, both in school. We wanted to get through school. We wanted to do it without taking on any debt, and we weren't making a lot of money at all. So I just thought, "Well, we need to watch this carefully." So I built this little spreadsheet for just me and my wife, Julie. A year later, it had done a lot of heavy lifting for us. We were on the same page. We were saving money.

Jesse Mecham:
Then this little baby came along, and our two big goals, we didn't want to borrow any money for school and we wanted Julie to be able to step out of the workforce and just focus on this baby, and she was the breadwinner at that time. I was still mainly focused on school. So the whole impetus was like, "Well, could we figure out some way to just kind of close that gap?" That was where I thought, "Well, maybe other people would want to use this spreadsheet that Julie and I have used." So we launched it and iterated for the next 17 years, and here we are.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of people are working from home, but they're thinking or they're being told that they're going to come back in some form. So much is up in the air. Give us some money tips for managing this time in our lives.

Jesse Mecham:
Structure. That is the word. You want to build structure in. It's not so you can be uber super productive, right? We're not saying, "Oh, now you can be Superwoman because you've got work right there. You can go sit over there and just start plugging away." Not that at all. It's actually structure to be able to stop working and find time to close things down. So anything you can do, if it's a morning routine and a shutdown routine, our team swears by that, if you have the luxury of finding a separate space with maybe a door that you can close, that's excellent. Headphones that you can pop on and mute things, that's excellent. Anything where you can create structure around your work, but most importantly it's so you can shut things down. We saw a lot of burnout from 2020, not because ... Well, I mean, yeah, because of the pandemic, but because people didn't know how to not be at work when work had come home.

Bobbi Rebell:
All the rules changed when the pandemic hit. It became kind of okay to have kids in the background, but at a certain point, there is a productivity cost. So give us some money tips for parents balancing work and family, especially in this transitional time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're promoters of remote work, and it's been kind of unfair for remote work to have the pandemic come along with the experiment, because what you were dealing with, it's like, "Oh, we don't like working from home because my kids are here." I'm like, "Well, they won't always be there. They'll probably be back in school, and it'll feel different," or suddenly someone's having to just on a whim work from their kitchen table. That's not ideal for basically most everyone. I say most because I do know one person that loves the chaos, and he works, codes right in that. But he is the exception.

Jesse Mecham:
So we don't want to combine our experience of working from home with the fact that we had all these other dynamics with the pandemic, number one, and maybe only, because you'd start here and then see what happened. You've got to have conversations with your spouse. You're probably both working, and you kind of have to say, "Okay, how do we divide and conquer this situation?" But Julie and I, when I used to work in our home, we had to have just straightforward conversations. I would say, "Hey, I'm going to go down." It's like I'm gone, just gone, and she was clear on that. Then she also needed to know from me, "Hey, are you going to come up for lunch? Should I eat without you?" She didn't want to just miss out on something. But it was a little bit of a burden for her if I wasn't very communicative on what my schedule looked like. She's like, "Oh, should I wait around, or should I take off with the kids and go somewhere?"

Jesse-Mecham-Twitter-Quote-#1-You-Need-A-Budget.png

Jesse Mecham:
So just overly communicating as far as the boundaries go has been really helpful, but you have to recognize you're always going to iterate on this. Everything's changing. Life will change. The kids will get a little older, and they can understand things like, "Hey, don't come in when the door's closed." I lock my door here when I'm doing something like this. It's recording where I'll hear Faye, my little five-year-old, run across the garage floor, and I'll hear her coming. She knows if the door's locked, that means don't knock. That means just give Dad a little bit of time, and I can pop out at some point. But you've got to communicate those boundaries like, "Hey, this is real. I'm really at work."

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's an area that is ripe for improvement in my home, for sure.

Jesse Mecham:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So okay. So your product is YNAB, and I'm sure some people are super fans and some people give you the eye roll. Part of it is that there's a perception that budgets are all about being restrictive. I'd like you to share an experience you had with your wife when you had a certain amount budgeted for groceries, but it wasn't working for her because it wasn't about the money.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, it's almost nothing is ever really about just the money. There's always something at least a few layers deep, and in this instance, I regret to say that it was a 10-year evolution of my learning on this and Julie also learning it as well. But for the most part, when we were first early on married and I was not even working just on YNAB, I had a real job and stuff, I mean, I was swamped doing that, and she was swamped doing these little kids. So we were both pretty swamped. I do still the heavy lifting of the budgeting as far as running the software and making sure everything's reconciled, and then she comes over and I'm like, "Hey, I'm ready for you." She comes over and she looks at it all, and we make sure we're on the same page.

Jesse Mecham:
That was always how it worked, and one of those categories in there was the groceries category. Our third rule of budgeting is to roll with the punches, meaning you can overspend. You just adjust. It's flexible. So every month, we would overspend in groceries, and then literally 10 years in, one day ... So this would mean we had four kids, probably, at the time. I was like ... Same old conversation. It was like a light bulb went off for Julie or something where she's like, "For me, a successful grocery trip doesn't mean I'm under budget. It means that the kids don't meltdown. It means that it's just smooth. It means we're in and out. That's success."

Jesse Mecham:
I was trying to have the old school Julie, when we were first married and she knew the price of every brand of can of corn. But over time, we had evolved, and she didn't have the brain space for it, nor should she have. So it was her recognizing the value that she was placing was on the experience, not on just, "Oh, look how little we spent." Way back when we were first married, it was vital that we spent so little because it was so tight. So I bumped our budget up quite a bit, and we haven't overspent since. That was a big lesson for me. There's usually something behind the scenes when we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and you're speaking to something that hits home for so many of our grownup listeners, that it is an evolution as you go through the different stages of being a grownup. At the early times, when you made that budget initially and the decision about how much money you would have for groceries, she was in a position where it made sense with her time and her attention to be looking at every little price. There sometimes is a time in life when the price within that budget is not the most important thing. It might be the time, that it's not worth her time, resources, especially now, as you have seven children, to know the price of corn or whatever it may be. So I think it's really important that financial grownups understand that things change and that's okay. It's important to be able to adjust things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're a big believer in not having debt. Obviously, you say it's not inevitable, but there are a lot of people that point out that debt can be used for good, like education. You were able to avoid debt for your education. Tell us about that, and give us some tips about avoiding debt, especially for people that are looking at student debt, credit card debt, what have you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. The student debt, I'll kind of set aside for just a moment. Credit card debt, for the most part, at least as it's reported, you see a lot of people say, "The worst situations are someone declares bankruptcy." They'll say, "A lot of the time, it's a medical debt that will kind of tip the scales," but we don't recognize all of the little debts that come along that kind of pile up. Then it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. This final one is a medical bill or something a little bit larger than is the norm. Most people, it's kind of death by a thousand cuts with that credit card balance. So it goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way. It goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way.

Jesse Mecham:
It's really because they're making spending decisions now, not considering future expenses that are going to happen, that are very much going to happen. The car will need to be repaired at some point or an appliance will need to be replaced. So when these abnormal kind of ... Someone will say, "Oh, it's this one-off thing. This isn't a normal month, but we had this one-off kind of 'Ah' experience. I just had a water heater go out. Well, just the pipe for it, where it started shooting a little stream of water in your face if you walked by. We were like, 'Well, we've got to get that fixed.'" That just happens. So that's all real, and there is no such thing as a normal month. So every time we see a new expense pop up, we're like, "Oh, that's abnormal. That's not normally what happens. So I'll just put it on this card because it's a one-off." You find out that that abnormal stuff happens all the time. So we're always kind of telling ourselves that story, and that story isn't true.

Jesse Mecham:
So when we get to our second rule, we are embracing those true expenses, we want people to be able to look ahead to those larger, less frequent expenses that surprise them and break them up into monthly amounts and start saving up for the car repair, the appliance repair, or the vacation, kids' summer camp or whatever it may be, not always just bad things. Then when they're choosing to spend money in the moment, they're considering the future as well. So that thinking shift, and I should say I'm not talking about people that are truly in dire straights. They know how to stretch. I mean, you talk about financial grownups, financial tips, they know how to stretch a dollar in ways that would just blow our minds. So I'm talking about people that make good money. They don't have good information, and so they're just not choosing in the moment based on information that's fit to really give them the answer they need. That's how we slowly get into the credit card debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can you get that information?

Jesse Mecham:
You need to stop looking at your checking account balance as the end all, be all point of information. Say, "Well, how much money do I have? Can I go out to sushi, or are we going to get some cheap pizza? Can I do this? Can I buy these shoes that I just saw or not?" People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Jesse Mecham:
So instead, we want them to follow our first rule. You take that bank balance, you break it up into jobs, and you say, "This month" ... Say we have $1,000. "400 of that is for groceries for the next little while. The 200 of it is for this thing. 100 of it is for a car repair that I know will happen, but I don't know when and I don't know how much, but 100 bucks would be better than zero. I'm going to set that aside this month." You just start breaking that pile of money down. 50 bucks will be for sushi. Then you live according to that plan.

Jesse Mecham:
When your friend says, "Hey, we should go get some sushi," you look at your phone, and instead of seeing that you have $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, yeah, sushi, slam dunk" or you see $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, should I? I don't know," you still don't know, still stressful, you look at the sushi category and you're like, "Oh, I've got 50 bucks. I'm sitting pretty. Let's go do sushi," or you see that your eating out category is $2 and you're like, "You want to just come over? I'll make you some tea or something." But you're not choosing something now without considering all of those future obligations that are going to hit you. That's the key.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to get through a couple other tips we have prepared for our listeners. You talk a lot about embracing your true expenses, and I feel like you were alluding to that in the last answer. What does it mean to embrace your true expenses?

Jesse Mecham:
You have to recognize that expenses are not even. They're not steady. They're like, I don't know, a really unhealthy EKG, maybe, where it's just like, "Boom, here's a big surprise. Boom, here's a big surprise." You always think, "Oh, that's the exception." It's not. It's real. Christmas comes every single year. So if you celebrate Christmas, if you do the gift thing, then you'd say, "Well, how much do we want to spend on that? Maybe it's $600." So you set aside 50 bucks a month. For all of 2021, you're setting aside 50 bucks a month, and then when Christmas comes, you have $600. Instead of flipping it around and starting to say, "Oh, well, I don't have any money, so I'll just put it on a card and then I'll pay that down," think about it this way, Bobbi. It's always you and future you that are sitting there with the pile of money. Future you needs to have a voice at the table.

Jesse Mecham:
If you think about the debt situation that you asked me about earlier, when you say someone's like, "Oh, we'll put that on a payment plan. We'll put this on a payment plan. That's the name of the game," that person, that company is thinking about future them. They're like, "Oh, man, it'd be great if you'd finance this car. Absolutely. It'd be great for us." They're totally thinking about future them, future quarterly earnings things for shareholders, future bank balance. I mean, they're all over the future. Then you have the person that signs it away saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that note for this car." They're not thinking about the future. I'm trying to flip that around. I'm trying to have people think about their future and position themselves to be future-oriented, where then they're making decisions with both of you in mind, future Bobbi, present Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and it's hard, because the truth is one of the things that worries a lot of us right now is that things like you talk about a car, car loans are getting longer and longer in term to make the payments look lower, but ultimately, you're paying more, and it's over your head for a very long time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're orienting where they know. Well, don't even look at the repo situation. I mean, how many times people will get cars repossessed, and the same car will get repossessed five times. There is someone making money in that scenario, and it's not the person driving the car. So that seven-year note that you see on cars now, they used to be three, then five. Now they're seven. All that is is an evolution of the financing of that GM, Ford. Every car company makes most of their money, most of their profits from the financing side of this, not from the manufacture of the car. They're putting it out to seven years because they know that future Toyota, future Honda, no knock on any of the companies, but they are future- and profit-oriented, and people that are buying the car are now-oriented.

Jesse Mecham:
That's where we have to just try and get that shift to happen. So you start paying yourself a car payment, saving up cash for it over time. It might mean that you buy a car that's beneath you for a little while, but then you trade up over time and you start paying cash for that. You get out of that car payment trap. It's not a given.

Bobbi Rebell:
Or you don't trade up. A lot of really wealthy people drive really crummy cars.

Jesse Mecham:
It is absolutely. Yeah. They're hiding in plain sight.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. One final tip. What does it mean to age your money?

Jesse-Mecham-Twitter-Quote-#3-You-Need-A-Budget.png

Jesse Mecham:
So we're essentially talking about if you were to earn a dollar today that it would be 30 to 60 days before you actually spent that dollar. So when a dollar enters your system, the clock starts ticking, and that dollar starts getting older and older and older. Right now, most people that are living paycheck to paycheck, they are spending dollars. I mean, they have a pile of bills just waiting for money to land, and we want to flip that around. We want to have a pile of money where bills come and land and you're like, "Oh, okay, I've got the money here set aside."

Jesse Mecham:
If you follow our first three rules, which we talk about ad nauseum, if you follow our first three rules, that fourth rule where you start to spend money that's a little older, a little older, a little older, it almost just happens automatically. It's a way to step back from the financial edge. You sleep better. You can talk more effectively about money with your partner because the stress levels are much lower. You make better decisions because of those stress levels being lower. You probably live longer because your stress levels are lower.

Jesse Mecham:
That's the aging your money concept. Spend money that is old. When you think about swiping a card, you actually spend money that ... Well, the metaphor breaks down, but it hasn't even been born yet. You haven't even earned it yet. The shift that we're seeing where companies are paying people for that day, for that shift, and they think that's going to help people break the paycheck to paycheck cycle, that's not going to do it. We're just pushing that can down the road. We have to have people start to orient themselves around thinking a little further ahead.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the way that you are reframing this and the different perspectives that you're giving, because I'm sitting here listening, and my mind is turning. It's so interesting to come at this from a different perspective. So thank you so much for joining us.




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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Jesse Mecham:
People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey there, grownup friends. Do you guys stress out about money? I do some of the time. I do. Do you check your bank balance before you make a purchase? Do you get anxious worrying about something unexpected coming at you, whacking your delicately balanced finances that are okay for now, but maybe not as strong as you would like, especially if those unexpected things should happen? But we have you covered with this week's financial grownup, Jesse Mecham. He is the founder of the You Need a Budget app and software, I should say, AKA, YNAB. Jesse has a lot to say about how we take the stress out of our grownup financial lives. The father of seven is remarkably calm. Yeah, I said the father of seven, in part because he has been able to separate his work from his family life, something we also talk about. I think you're really going to love his work from home tips as well. So with that, here is YNAB's Jesse Mecham. Hey, Jesse Mecham, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jesse Mecham:
Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are the founder, CEO, and creator, creative mind, I should say, behind You Need a Budget, affectionately known by many as YNAB. Congratulations on all the success of this product, and really, it's more than a product. It's really a whole suite of tools to help grownups.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're focused on anyone that thinks at some moment in time, "I think I might need a budget," and then we try and convince them that a budget is fun and useful and productive. Then we just teach them kind of a new way of thinking about their money and have them go on their way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the backstory of this really started with you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. I was the first one to realize that I needed a budget, at least that I knew, and my very new wife and I, we were both just newlyweds, broke, both in school. We wanted to get through school. We wanted to do it without taking on any debt, and we weren't making a lot of money at all. So I just thought, "Well, we need to watch this carefully." So I built this little spreadsheet for just me and my wife, Julie. A year later, it had done a lot of heavy lifting for us. We were on the same page. We were saving money.

Jesse Mecham:
Then this little baby came along, and our two big goals, we didn't want to borrow any money for school and we wanted Julie to be able to step out of the workforce and just focus on this baby, and she was the breadwinner at that time. I was still mainly focused on school. So the whole impetus was like, "Well, could we figure out some way to just kind of close that gap?" That was where I thought, "Well, maybe other people would want to use this spreadsheet that Julie and I have used." So we launched it and iterated for the next 17 years, and here we are.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of people are working from home, but they're thinking or they're being told that they're going to come back in some form. So much is up in the air. Give us some money tips for managing this time in our lives.

Jesse Mecham:
Structure. That is the word. You want to build structure in. It's not so you can be uber super productive, right? We're not saying, "Oh, now you can be Superwoman because you've got work right there. You can go sit over there and just start plugging away." Not that at all. It's actually structure to be able to stop working and find time to close things down. So anything you can do, if it's a morning routine and a shutdown routine, our team swears by that, if you have the luxury of finding a separate space with maybe a door that you can close, that's excellent. Headphones that you can pop on and mute things, that's excellent. Anything where you can create structure around your work, but most importantly it's so you can shut things down. We saw a lot of burnout from 2020, not because ... Well, I mean, yeah, because of the pandemic, but because people didn't know how to not be at work when work had come home.

Bobbi Rebell:
All the rules changed when the pandemic hit. It became kind of okay to have kids in the background, but at a certain point, there is a productivity cost. So give us some money tips for parents balancing work and family, especially in this transitional time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. We're promoters of remote work, and it's been kind of unfair for remote work to have the pandemic come along with the experiment, because what you were dealing with, it's like, "Oh, we don't like working from home because my kids are here." I'm like, "Well, they won't always be there. They'll probably be back in school, and it'll feel different," or suddenly someone's having to just on a whim work from their kitchen table. That's not ideal for basically most everyone. I say most because I do know one person that loves the chaos, and he works, codes right in that. But he is the exception.

Jesse Mecham:
So we don't want to combine our experience of working from home with the fact that we had all these other dynamics with the pandemic, number one, and maybe only, because you'd start here and then see what happened. You've got to have conversations with your spouse. You're probably both working, and you kind of have to say, "Okay, how do we divide and conquer this situation?" But Julie and I, when I used to work in our home, we had to have just straightforward conversations. I would say, "Hey, I'm going to go down." It's like I'm gone, just gone, and she was clear on that. Then she also needed to know from me, "Hey, are you going to come up for lunch? Should I eat without you?" She didn't want to just miss out on something. But it was a little bit of a burden for her if I wasn't very communicative on what my schedule looked like. She's like, "Oh, should I wait around, or should I take off with the kids and go somewhere?"

Jesse Mecham:
So just overly communicating as far as the boundaries go has been really helpful, but you have to recognize you're always going to iterate on this. Everything's changing. Life will change. The kids will get a little older, and they can understand things like, "Hey, don't come in when the door's closed." I lock my door here when I'm doing something like this. It's recording where I'll hear Faye, my little five-year-old, run across the garage floor, and I'll hear her coming. She knows if the door's locked, that means don't knock. That means just give Dad a little bit of time, and I can pop out at some point. But you've got to communicate those boundaries like, "Hey, this is real. I'm really at work."

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's an area that is ripe for improvement in my home, for sure.

Jesse Mecham:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
So okay. So your product is YNAB, and I'm sure some people are super fans and some people give you the eye roll. Part of it is that there's a perception that budgets are all about being restrictive. I'd like you to share an experience you had with your wife when you had a certain amount budgeted for groceries, but it wasn't working for her because it wasn't about the money.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, it's almost nothing is ever really about just the money. There's always something at least a few layers deep, and in this instance, I regret to say that it was a 10-year evolution of my learning on this and Julie also learning it as well. But for the most part, when we were first early on married and I was not even working just on YNAB, I had a real job and stuff, I mean, I was swamped doing that, and she was swamped doing these little kids. So we were both pretty swamped. I do still the heavy lifting of the budgeting as far as running the software and making sure everything's reconciled, and then she comes over and I'm like, "Hey, I'm ready for you." She comes over and she looks at it all, and we make sure we're on the same page.

Jesse Mecham:
That was always how it worked, and one of those categories in there was the groceries category. Our third rule of budgeting is to roll with the punches, meaning you can overspend. You just adjust. It's flexible. So every month, we would overspend in groceries, and then literally 10 years in, one day ... So this would mean we had four kids, probably, at the time. I was like ... Same old conversation. It was like a light bulb went off for Julie or something where she's like, "For me, a successful grocery trip doesn't mean I'm under budget. It means that the kids don't meltdown. It means that it's just smooth. It means we're in and out. That's success."

Jesse Mecham:
I was trying to have the old school Julie, when we were first married and she knew the price of every brand of can of corn. But over time, we had evolved, and she didn't have the brain space for it, nor should she have. So it was her recognizing the value that she was placing was on the experience, not on just, "Oh, look how little we spent." Way back when we were first married, it was vital that we spent so little because it was so tight. So I bumped our budget up quite a bit, and we haven't overspent since. That was a big lesson for me. There's usually something behind the scenes when we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, and you're speaking to something that hits home for so many of our grownup listeners, that it is an evolution as you go through the different stages of being a grownup. At the early times, when you made that budget initially and the decision about how much money you would have for groceries, she was in a position where it made sense with her time and her attention to be looking at every little price. There sometimes is a time in life when the price within that budget is not the most important thing. It might be the time, that it's not worth her time, resources, especially now, as you have seven children, to know the price of corn or whatever it may be. So I think it's really important that financial grownups understand that things change and that's okay. It's important to be able to adjust things.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're a big believer in not having debt. Obviously, you say it's not inevitable, but there are a lot of people that point out that debt can be used for good, like education. You were able to avoid debt for your education. Tell us about that, and give us some tips about avoiding debt, especially for people that are looking at student debt, credit card debt, what have you.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah. The student debt, I'll kind of set aside for just a moment. Credit card debt, for the most part, at least as it's reported, you see a lot of people say, "The worst situations are someone declares bankruptcy." They'll say, "A lot of the time, it's a medical debt that will kind of tip the scales," but we don't recognize all of the little debts that come along that kind of pile up. Then it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. This final one is a medical bill or something a little bit larger than is the norm. Most people, it's kind of death by a thousand cuts with that credit card balance. So it goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way. It goes up a little bit. They pay it down, but not quite all the way.

Jesse Mecham:
It's really because they're making spending decisions now, not considering future expenses that are going to happen, that are very much going to happen. The car will need to be repaired at some point or an appliance will need to be replaced. So when these abnormal kind of ... Someone will say, "Oh, it's this one-off thing. This isn't a normal month, but we had this one-off kind of 'Ah' experience. I just had a water heater go out. Well, just the pipe for it, where it started shooting a little stream of water in your face if you walked by. We were like, 'Well, we've got to get that fixed.'" That just happens. So that's all real, and there is no such thing as a normal month. So every time we see a new expense pop up, we're like, "Oh, that's abnormal. That's not normally what happens. So I'll just put it on this card because it's a one-off." You find out that that abnormal stuff happens all the time. So we're always kind of telling ourselves that story, and that story isn't true.

Jesse Mecham:
So when we get to our second rule, we are embracing those true expenses, we want people to be able to look ahead to those larger, less frequent expenses that surprise them and break them up into monthly amounts and start saving up for the car repair, the appliance repair, or the vacation, kids' summer camp or whatever it may be, not always just bad things. Then when they're choosing to spend money in the moment, they're considering the future as well. So that thinking shift, and I should say I'm not talking about people that are truly in dire straights. They know how to stretch. I mean, you talk about financial grownups, financial tips, they know how to stretch a dollar in ways that would just blow our minds. So I'm talking about people that make good money. They don't have good information, and so they're just not choosing in the moment based on information that's fit to really give them the answer they need. That's how we slowly get into the credit card debt.

Bobbi Rebell:
So where can you get that information?

Jesse Mecham:
You need to stop looking at your checking account balance as the end all, be all point of information. Say, "Well, how much money do I have? Can I go out to sushi, or are we going to get some cheap pizza? Can I do this? Can I buy these shoes that I just saw or not?" People will pull out their phone. They look at their bank balance. If they just got a paycheck, they're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm flush." If the paycheck comes in in a few days, they're like, "Oh, I can't buy that." The bank balance is the sole indicator of, "Can I buy this? Can I not? Can I afford this? Can I not? Should I buy this?" It's super stressful.

Jesse Mecham:
So instead, we want them to follow our first rule. You take that bank balance, you break it up into jobs, and you say, "This month" ... Say we have $1,000. "400 of that is for groceries for the next little while. The 200 of it is for this thing. 100 of it is for a car repair that I know will happen, but I don't know when and I don't know how much, but 100 bucks would be better than zero. I'm going to set that aside this month." You just start breaking that pile of money down. 50 bucks will be for sushi. Then you live according to that plan.

Jesse Mecham:
When your friend says, "Hey, we should go get some sushi," you look at your phone, and instead of seeing that you have $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, yeah, sushi, slam dunk" or you see $1,000 and you're like, "Oh, should I? I don't know," you still don't know, still stressful, you look at the sushi category and you're like, "Oh, I've got 50 bucks. I'm sitting pretty. Let's go do sushi," or you see that your eating out category is $2 and you're like, "You want to just come over? I'll make you some tea or something." But you're not choosing something now without considering all of those future obligations that are going to hit you. That's the key.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to get through a couple other tips we have prepared for our listeners. You talk a lot about embracing your true expenses, and I feel like you were alluding to that in the last answer. What does it mean to embrace your true expenses?

Jesse Mecham:
You have to recognize that expenses are not even. They're not steady. They're like, I don't know, a really unhealthy EKG, maybe, where it's just like, "Boom, here's a big surprise. Boom, here's a big surprise." You always think, "Oh, that's the exception." It's not. It's real. Christmas comes every single year. So if you celebrate Christmas, if you do the gift thing, then you'd say, "Well, how much do we want to spend on that? Maybe it's $600." So you set aside 50 bucks a month. For all of 2021, you're setting aside 50 bucks a month, and then when Christmas comes, you have $600. Instead of flipping it around and starting to say, "Oh, well, I don't have any money, so I'll just put it on a card and then I'll pay that down," think about it this way, Bobbi. It's always you and future you that are sitting there with the pile of money. Future you needs to have a voice at the table.

Jesse Mecham:
If you think about the debt situation that you asked me about earlier, when you say someone's like, "Oh, we'll put that on a payment plan. We'll put this on a payment plan. That's the name of the game," that person, that company is thinking about future them. They're like, "Oh, man, it'd be great if you'd finance this car. Absolutely. It'd be great for us." They're totally thinking about future them, future quarterly earnings things for shareholders, future bank balance. I mean, they're all over the future. Then you have the person that signs it away saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that note for this car." They're not thinking about the future. I'm trying to flip that around. I'm trying to have people think about their future and position themselves to be future-oriented, where then they're making decisions with both of you in mind, future Bobbi, present Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and it's hard, because the truth is one of the things that worries a lot of us right now is that things like you talk about a car, car loans are getting longer and longer in term to make the payments look lower, but ultimately, you're paying more, and it's over your head for a very long time.

Jesse Mecham:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're orienting where they know. Well, don't even look at the repo situation. I mean, how many times people will get cars repossessed, and the same car will get repossessed five times. There is someone making money in that scenario, and it's not the person driving the car. So that seven-year note that you see on cars now, they used to be three, then five. Now they're seven. All that is is an evolution of the financing of that GM, Ford. Every car company makes most of their money, most of their profits from the financing side of this, not from the manufacture of the car. They're putting it out to seven years because they know that future Toyota, future Honda, no knock on any of the companies, but they are future- and profit-oriented, and people that are buying the car are now-oriented.

Jesse Mecham:
That's where we have to just try and get that shift to happen. So you start paying yourself a car payment, saving up cash for it over time. It might mean that you buy a car that's beneath you for a little while, but then you trade up over time and you start paying cash for that. You get out of that car payment trap. It's not a given.

Bobbi Rebell:
Or you don't trade up. A lot of really wealthy people drive really crummy cars.

Jesse Mecham:
It is absolutely. Yeah. They're hiding in plain sight.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. One final tip. What does it mean to age your money?

Jesse Mecham:
So we're essentially talking about if you were to earn a dollar today that it would be 30 to 60 days before you actually spent that dollar. So when a dollar enters your system, the clock starts ticking, and that dollar starts getting older and older and older. Right now, most people that are living paycheck to paycheck, they are spending dollars. I mean, they have a pile of bills just waiting for money to land, and we want to flip that around. We want to have a pile of money where bills come and land and you're like, "Oh, okay, I've got the money here set aside."

Jesse Mecham:
If you follow our first three rules, which we talk about ad nauseum, if you follow our first three rules, that fourth rule where you start to spend money that's a little older, a little older, a little older, it almost just happens automatically. It's a way to step back from the financial edge. You sleep better. You can talk more effectively about money with your partner because the stress levels are much lower. You make better decisions because of those stress levels being lower. You probably live longer because your stress levels are lower.

Jesse Mecham:
That's the aging your money concept. Spend money that is old. When you think about swiping a card, you actually spend money that ... Well, the metaphor breaks down, but it hasn't even been born yet. You haven't even earned it yet. The shift that we're seeing where companies are paying people for that day, for that shift, and they think that's going to help people break the paycheck to paycheck cycle, that's not going to do it. We're just pushing that can down the road. We have to have people start to orient themselves around thinking a little further ahead.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the way that you are reframing this and the different perspectives that you're giving, because I'm sitting here listening, and my mind is turning. It's so interesting to come at this from a different perspective. So thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find out more about you and about your company?

Jesse Mecham:
You can just go to youneedabudget.com, and we are on all the social stuff. We're even on TikTok, which I don't even understand, but we're there. I personally am not on any of the social stuff. I stay plenty busy not doing that. But you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, all over the place. My podcast is called You Need a Budget as well, and if you loved listening to this silky voice, you can listen to it all you want.

Bobbi Rebell:
So great having you. Thank you.

Jesse Mecham:
Thanks so much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's review some of what we learned from Jesse. First of all, it took 17 years for Jesse to get his business where it is now. So be prepared to play the long game with your goals. If you are working from home for the long haul, make sure you create structure to put up guardrails and protect your time so you don't get burned out. Remember, the kids are going back to school. Because kids were home at the same time, remote work was very different during the pandemic. With the kids back in school, it likely will be easier, but make sure to communicate with your family about exactly how things are going to run. Be prepared for abnormal expenses, which are actually kind of routine. We just don't think of it that way. Start putting money aside for unexpected expenses that you know to expect.

Bobbi Rebell:
Consider the future. When you were about to buy something, are you considering future you and how that will impact future you, the decision you make today, right? Break up your money and give every dollar a job to start getting control of your money. Think it through. When you borrow money, like for a car, know that the companies stretch out the length of the loan to make those payments lower. Do the math, but I'm going to bet you probably are going to pay more in the end. Age your money. Try to wait and have money in your account for a period of time before you spend it. It'll take a lot of anxiety out of your life. How do you lower the stress levels when it comes to money? I'd love to hear your ideas. DM me at bobbirebell1, and let me know.

Bobbi Rebell:
A reminder, if you are shopping for gifts, please check out grownupgear.com. I will be eternally grateful for your business. As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to grownupgear.com each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. We could also call it Financial Independence Day, I hope. I don't know. Maybe. There are two ways to enter to win. Take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, and tag me at bobbirebell1. Then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. That's hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter to win a $50 gift card to grownupgear.com is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups Podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. So easy, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Grownup Gear, as I like to say, is it's a micro business. We really do need and appreciate all of your support, so check it out and, of course, tell your friends. Big thanks to Jesse Mecham of You Need a Budget for helping us lower our stress levels and be our best financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup, the podcast, and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free. But I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Money tips on how to spend like a grownup with Financial Therapist George Blount

After being stuck at home for more than a year, many of us are ready to spend! This week’s Financial Grownup Dr. George Blount says that’s actually ok. But there’s some important strategies to keep us out of trouble when we hit that “buy” button.

George-Blount-Main-Instagram.png

George’s Money Tips

George Blount:
I'm a financial therapist. I means I help people with their emotional relationship with money, and that usually takes place in a few aspects. There are five areas of financial health and that's the economic, the relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional elements of financial health and I try to help individuals with each of those. The economic is the most common one that is primarily products and services or processes that people are used to. The parts that people are not as familiar with, or delving deeper into your financial behavior kind of some of the feelings that you have, the psychological aspects of money, or maybe the emotional response that you have the money. So I try to delve deeper into those aspects.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper now. Let's talk about spending habits and ways to improve them. What are your top tips for that to begin with? And then we'll get back into the emotional things and the economic stuff that you were talking about.

George Blount:
Yeah. Some of the things that are going to be helpful to at least curb your spending are first and foremost, putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase. So if you have a reason, or if you have a goal that you're aligning some of your spending to, it makes it easier for you to be aware of the spending, one, it also allows you to have a timeframe on what is an appropriate amount of spending and then what's an appropriate time to enjoy that spending and sort of really just allows you to have a better understanding.

George Blount:
The second thing I would say is the pace. We just have to understand that you don't always have to spend money right away. So as you come up with these decisions, or as you have an opportunity to spend really think about it, take a little bit of time before you make that decision and then you move forward. So having a purpose to your purchases, and then think about the pace that you have in your spending as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming out of the pandemic a lot of us feel whether we're aware of it or not, this urge to splurge, we call it revenge spending. How do you manage that? What do you do? Because we've had this pent up, we've literally been pent up, I should say, for so long that I don't know, we feel like we deserve it. Right?

George Blount:
So it's important to look at it as not a zero sum game. There are some things that are bad habits that were formed throughout this period of time, but then there are also some good things that happen throughout this period of time. So you can look back and say, "Okay, I have improved in these areas. I've saved in this part of my spending," or, "I improved my saving in this area. So that's something that I want to hold on to, and this is something that I'm doing that that I really don't want to hold onto. It's a poor habit and I need to get rid of it."

George Blount:
So really comparing and contrasting some of the good things and bad things that you have learned, and then making a choice that the mindful spending is really about presenting yourself with viable alternatives and then selecting the appropriate choice for you. So that when you're spending isn't based on regret or some type of emotional element, but where it's based on achieving a goal and based on some type of alignment to an objective that is going to serve well for the longer term.

Bobbi Rebell:
What role does peer pressure play in our spending, especially now when other people are telling us we deserve certain things?

George-Blount-Twitter-Quote-#1-nbalance-financial.png


George Blount:
Yeah. It takes a large part of our brain capacity to really hear what everybody else is saying. So it's a really significant part of what we deal with. Peer pressure is something that allows us to exacerbate some of our bad spending. Maybe it amplifies or validate some of our good behaviors, but let's just talk about the negative side of it, because that's what we see. People in general don't need a lot of people to tell them what to do. In fact, we trust information from a very small number of people. So if we hear a couple of things from a small number of people that we may trust, or that we believe in, we take it to heart.

George Blount:
So sometimes if it may not be well-informed financial decisions, or it may be more of an opinion that someone has based on their previous experience as opposed to an educational opportunity, then it really is a negative effect of peer pressure. So we need to try to avoid that because it's pretty popular and we should probably convert it to some of the other forms, which is maybe listen to your professors or, or some of the journalist, or maybe the contextual way that some individuals can allow conversations to make sense. That's good peer pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any specific suggestions to combat that when someone say, "Oh, you haven't bought anything in this long. Just get it."

George Blount:
I think I would always recommend there's a simulation that you can play. It's a playspent.org, playS-P-E-N-T.org. And what it is, it's just a simulation on trying to balance out your spending and it takes about five minutes or so to go through. But go through that exercise and it is a hypothetical simulation of whether or not you could save money in a month and what types of activities may come in throughout the month that can deter your spending or deter your savings. And that single perspective is often really good and allowing people to understand just the randomness that life presents when it comes to our financial decisions, our financial purchases, or where we need to save.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some red flags to look for?

George Blount:
Red flags I think normally will come from things that you don't feel well about. When I talk to individuals and I say, "I help people with their emotional relationship with money." Some people don't know what that emotional relationship is. It's hard to describe, you can't go into it and we have to go through this mode of discovery. Some people understand it very well. And some people know that there are bad influences on their spending, where they're spending to make themselves feel better, or they're doing things that they know that they just don't want to do. So if you subconsciously know that, or even if you are overtly saying that that would be a red flag.

Bobbi Rebell:
And a lot of people became more comfortable online shopping than ever during the pandemic. What can we do to make sure that we're not overspending in terms of online?

George Blount:
Limiting the exposure to your phone, your screen time, similar to the way that you would with social media and you take a fast or you take a little break, you have to do the same thing with the shopping apps that are on your phone. You can remove them, you can take a break from them, nothing to look at them. I think the more we are away from it, it's a little bit easier.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about also subscribing to newsletters, websites, store cards, that kind of stuff?

George Blount:
Yeah. I think as long as it is serving a purpose. Again, you have this a situation where you're looking at information that is going to allow you to one way or another, make a purchase that satisfies your need or not. So if it's purposeful, then by all means go right ahead. But if it's not, I think that's where there's a problem. So just giving yourself better alternatives is always going to be the approach that I would recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

George-Blount-Twitter-Quote-#3-nbalance-financial.png


George Blount:
Yeah, I would just add two things to think. The first one is that as you mentioned, I think more people have become more comfortable shopping online. I think more people, they've gotten a lot better at seeking help out. So maybe it is not always been seen as appropriate to seek out therapy when it comes to your financial decisions, but that is something that is very possible as well. I think the second thing is you can always look at trusted sources like mymoney.gov, For places that will give you great information on how you should spend, how you should save and terms that are incredibly important. And that's free websites that are accessible to everybody.


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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grown-up for 15% off, your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

George Blount:
Putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we've got this. Hello grownups, feeling the urge to splurge these days? Maybe a little revenge spending after over a year of basically being stuck at home. That is totally normal and probably okay. A little, as long as you follow the rules you are going to hear from this week's guest financial therapist, Dr. George Blount, Managing Partner at nBalance Financial. Dr. Blount works with individuals on financial matters, but with a special focus on the emotional, behavioral and psychological elements that impact their financial decisions. In our interview, Dr. Blount walks us through the five areas of financial health, and then we're going to get into his money tips and how we can all still enjoy spending and even splurging without derailing our goals. Here is Dr. George Blount. Dr. George Blount, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

George Blount:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. Pleasure to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am excited to have you on, you're going to be sharing your tips to improve our spending habits. But before we do that, I introduced you as Dr. George Blount. You're a financial therapist, tell us about that.

George Blount:
Yep. So I'm a financial therapist. I means I help people with their emotional relationship with money, and that usually takes place in a few aspects. There are five areas of financial health and that's the economic, the relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional elements of financial health and I try to help individuals with each of those. The economic is the most common one that is primarily products and services or processes that people are used to. The parts that people are not as familiar with, or delving deeper into your financial behavior kind of some of the feelings that you have, the psychological aspects of money, or maybe the emotional response that you have the money. So I try to delve deeper into those aspects.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper now. Let's talk about spending habits and ways to improve them. What are your top tips for that to begin with? And then we'll get back into the emotional things and the economic stuff that you were talking about.

George Blount:
Yeah. Some of the things that are going to be helpful to at least curb your spending are first and foremost, putting a goal in front of you, at least having something that you can look forward to in terms of what the money is being spent for, call it a purpose to your purchase. So if you have a reason, or if you have a goal that you're aligning some of your spending to, it makes it easier for you to be aware of the spending, one, it also allows you to have a timeframe on what is an appropriate amount of spending and then what's an appropriate time to enjoy that spending and sort of really just allows you to have a better understanding.

George Blount:
The second thing I would say is the pace. We just have to understand that you don't always have to spend money right away. So as you come up with these decisions, or as you have an opportunity to spend really think about it, take a little bit of time before you make that decision and then you move forward. So having a purpose to your purchases, and then think about the pace that you have in your spending as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Coming out of the pandemic a lot of us feel whether we're aware of it or not, this urge to splurge, we call it revenge spending. How do you manage that? What do you do? Because we've had this pent up, we've literally been pent up, I should say, for so long that I don't know, we feel like we deserve it. Right?

George Blount:
So it's important to look at it as not a zero sum game. There are some things that are bad habits that were formed throughout this period of time, but then there are also some good things that happen throughout this period of time. So you can look back and say, "Okay, I have improved in these areas. I've saved in this part of my spending," or, "I improved my saving in this area. So that's something that I want to hold on to, and this is something that I'm doing that that I really don't want to hold onto. It's a poor habit and I need to get rid of it."

George Blount:
So really comparing and contrasting some of the good things and bad things that you have learned, and then making a choice that the mindful spending is really about presenting yourself with viable alternatives and then selecting the appropriate choice for you. So that when you're spending isn't based on regret or some type of emotional element, but where it's based on achieving a goal and based on some type of alignment to an objective that is going to serve well for the longer term.

Bobbi Rebell:
What role does peer pressure play in our spending, especially now when other people are telling us we deserve certain things?

George Blount:
Yeah. It takes a large part of our brain capacity to really hear what everybody else is saying. So it's a really significant part of what we deal with. Peer pressure is something that allows us to exacerbate some of our bad spending. Maybe it amplifies or validate some of our good behaviors, but let's just talk about the negative side of it, because that's what we see. People in general don't need a lot of people to tell them what to do. In fact, we trust information from a very small number of people. So if we hear a couple of things from a small number of people that we may trust, or that we believe in, we take it to heart.

George Blount:
So sometimes if it may not be well-informed financial decisions, or it may be more of an opinion that someone has based on their previous experience as opposed to an educational opportunity, then it really is a negative effect of peer pressure. So we need to try to avoid that because it's pretty popular and we should probably convert it to some of the other forms, which is maybe listen to your professors or, or some of the journalist, or maybe the contextual way that some individuals can allow conversations to make sense. That's good peer pressure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any specific suggestions to combat that when someone say, "Oh, you haven't bought anything in this long. Just get it."

George Blount:
I think I would always recommend there's a simulation that you can play. It's a playspent.org, playS-P-E-N-T.org. And what it is, it's just a simulation on trying to balance out your spending and it takes about five minutes or so to go through. But go through that exercise and it is a hypothetical simulation of whether or not you could save money in a month and what types of activities may come in throughout the month that can deter your spending or deter your savings. And that single perspective is often really good and allowing people to understand just the randomness that life presents when it comes to our financial decisions, our financial purchases, or where we need to save.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are some red flags to look for?

George Blount:
Red flags I think normally will come from things that you don't feel well about. When I talk to individuals and I say, "I help people with their emotional relationship with money." Some people don't know what that emotional relationship is. It's hard to describe, you can't go into it and we have to go through this mode of discovery. Some people understand it very well. And some people know that there are bad influences on their spending, where they're spending to make themselves feel better, or they're doing things that they know that they just don't want to do. So if you subconsciously know that, or even if you are overtly saying that that would be a red flag.

Bobbi Rebell:
And a lot of people became more comfortable online shopping than ever during the pandemic. What can we do to make sure that we're not overspending in terms of online?

George Blount:
Limiting the exposure to your phone, your screen time, similar to the way that you would with social media and you take a fast or you take a little break, you have to do the same thing with the shopping apps that are on your phone. You can remove them, you can take a break from them, nothing to look at them. I think the more we are away from it, it's a little bit easier.

Bobbi Rebell:
What about also subscribing to newsletters, websites, store cards, that kind of stuff?

George Blount:
Yeah. I think as long as it is serving a purpose. Again, you have this a situation where you're looking at information that is going to allow you to one way or another, make a purchase that satisfies your need or not. So if it's purposeful, then by all means go right ahead. But if it's not, I think that's where there's a problem. So just giving yourself better alternatives is always going to be the approach that I would recommend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?

George Blount:
Yeah, I would just add two things to think. The first one is that as you mentioned, I think more people have become more comfortable shopping online. I think more people, they've gotten a lot better at seeking help out. So maybe it is not always been seen as appropriate to seek out therapy when it comes to your financial decisions, but that is something that is very possible as well. I think the second thing is you can always look at trusted sources like mymoney.gov, For places that will give you great information on how you should spend, how you should save and terms that are incredibly important. And that's free websites that are accessible to everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much. Where can people find out more about you and be in touch?

George Blount:
Absolutely. So they can go to my website, which is nbalancefinancial.com. And that's N-B-L-A-N-C-E, that's nbalancefinancial.com. And they can always get in touch with me directly through that site. I'm located in Boston, but servicing all throughout the US through this virtual environment.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

George Blount:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. It's just been such a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's review some of Dr. Blount's money tips. First of all, there are five areas of financial health, economic, relational, psychological, behavioral, and emotional. To curb your spending, put a goal in front of you, a purpose to your purchase. Watch out for negative peer pressure and make sure to include vetted third party information when you're making big money decisions. Take a break, not just from social media, which pushes those shopping ads, but also from those shopping apps on your phone. It may not be something that you think of naturally, but there is a lot of emotion and psychology in our financial decisions, and it may be worth seeking therapy if you find yourself struggling with your financial situation, especially in these times that are really unprecedented. One thing that is definitely okay to spend the right amount of money on is celebrating life's adulting moments. And the best place of course, to get those gifts is at grownupgear.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you haven't checked it out yet, take a look. We have the perfect gift for all of those adulting celebrations, those adulting milestones that we celebrate from graduations, to engagements, bridal showers, new homes, birthdays, becoming new parents, all those good things. As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to grown-up gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. And maybe we can also call it financial independence day. I don't know. Anyway, there are two ways to enter to win. Way number one is to take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, tag me @bobbirebell1. And then also this is key, email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. That's hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot, and then send that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Growing up here is what we like to call a micro business, and we really do and appreciate all of your support. So please check it out and tell your friends. We also appreciated Dr. George Blount for helping us all be financial grownups. Money tips for financial grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.