Susan McPherson, author of the new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships shares 5 specific tips to connect and intentionally leverage your network of friends and colleagues. 

Susan’s 5 Easy Tips for Daily Connection

#1 - Spend a little bit of time reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

#2 - Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener. For those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila! No more FOMO.

#3 - Ask questions. To truly build connection, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

#4- Let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and more reliable fashion.

#5- Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - Create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it.

#2 - Make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day.

Get your copy of The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Business Relationships today!

Follow Susan!

• Instagram - @susanmcp1

• Twitter- @susanmcp1

• LinkedIn- Susan McPherson

• Website- www.mcpstrategies.com

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• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: It is officially spring and that means graduation season is on. We here at the Financial Grownup Podcast, have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have durable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and the seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts, all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup gear also makes great gifts for mother's day, father's day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette parties, birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code graduation for a 15% discount, and thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast and we truly appreciate your support.

Susan McPherson: This is a way of leading yourself professionally and personally, to be of support because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey friends, today's show is going to put a smile on your face. This week's financial grownup is my dear friend, Susan McPherson. She is back to share her pandemic project, and that is her new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships. Susan is the founder and CEO of McPherson Strategies, a communications consultancy that focuses on the intersection of brands and social impact. When not in quarantine, Susan's a prominent speaker at top conferences around the globe. She's also a contributor to the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company and Forbes, and you've probably seen or heard her or read her work in the media everywhere from NPR to CNN, to USA today, the New Yorker, New York Magazine and The Los Angeles Times and many more. She is also an angel investor, and if we're going to cut to the chase, she is huge on social media. By the way, fun fact, Susan has run six marathons.

Bobbi Rebell: Her book, for us, could not come at a more perfect time. As I read the book, I got so many ideas of things that I can do to specifically enjoy spending time with people and frankly, being a better friend and being a more effective person in my business and professional relationships and just enjoying it all more. And a reminder, you're going to be tempted to take notes but please focus your attention on the gems that Susan shares. We've got a summary for you right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. Just go to the Financial Grownup Podcast dropdown menu and when you click on Susan's episode, you'll see that summary, along with all the links you need and below that, a full transcript. Here is Susan McPherson. Susan McPherson, welcome back. You are a financial grownup. We're so happy to have you here again.

Susan McPherson: Bobbi, I couldn't pick a better place to be.

Bobbi Rebell: We are going to be talking about your new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships and what better time than now when we are just on the cusp, I hope, oh please, I hope of getting out of this debacle that has been quarantine, COVID-19 and the last year, right?

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. But I have to say, if anything, over this last year, one thing we all have realized is how much we miss human connection.

Bobbi Rebell: So true, and you are the ultimate connector. I mean, literally so funny because at the beginning of this book, you talk about the fact that some people have called you a human CRM app and that's so true.

Susan McPherson: It is something I have loved all my life so what better than to excel at something that you love doing?

Bobbi Rebell: Well as someone that has personally benefited from your generosity and your graciousness and your giving nature, I can just, first of all, attest to the truth of that. You did bring with you five practical tips for daily connection with colleagues, neighbors, and others in your community and network. That's the formal name, but you know what? Really we're talking about how to reset after everything that's been going on. What's your first tip?

Susan McPherson: Spend a little bit of time now, reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Do some old fashion navel-gazing and think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said, what is your second tip?

Susan McPherson : Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener, and I will say for those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila, no more FOMO.

Bobbi Rebell: I love that, and it reminds me, and we're going to digress just for a moment of part of your book, where you talk about creating rituals, something our mutual friend, Erica Keswin talks about in her latest book, but that could be part of getting that done, of JOMO.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. It doesn't all have to be sitting around, having cocktails. You can gather groups for taking a walk and talk. You can gather groups for a cooking class. Again, we've been doing this in some shape, way or form online, but now you have an opportunity to actually potentially maybe by the summer in small groups, doing it in real life.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, we all can't wait for that. What is your third tip?

Susan McPherson: Well, and this is a big component of the book and it's ask. Ask questions. To truly build connection, first, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

Bobbi Rebell: And one underlying theme in your book, by the way, is the importance of curiosity.

Susan McPherson: Yes. And to me, it's a drug and a positive drug because it is curiosity that leads you to the path to understand and appreciate people for where they are and see people, and most importantly, that curiosity helps you then to be able to follow up and be supportive.

Bobbi Rebell: Which is another big theme in your book, and that brings us to your fourth tip.

Susan McPherson: Yes, well, it's important of course, to ask, but we won't be successful at asking if we don't know how to listen. So number four is, let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and probably more reliable fashion.

Bobbi Rebell: That really is everything, and so let's talk about following up and let's get to your fifth tip.

Susan McPherson: My fifth tip is essentially that. Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective. I want to just caveat all of this, Bobbi, this isn't about putting everyone else before you, but this is a way of leading yourself, professionally and personally, to be of support, because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, and you know this Bobbi, you support so many women and men and probably children. That notion, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: That reminds me of some advice that your father gave you growing up that really still resonates with you and really hit home for me.

Susan McPherson: Yes, and that was to always ask first how you can be of help, before stepping up and doing.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah and what would be an example of how someone could put that into, I mean, what I love about this book also is it's so specific and practical, give us some examples first of that, of how someone would put that into their life. Then I'm going to try to squeeze it in one more question before we wrap.

Susan McPherson: Just a week ago, a dear friend of mine introduced me to a lovely woman who is trying to expand her portfolio. She and I had a 30 minute conversation, literally an hour after a conversation, I was able to introduce her to the executive director of an organization whose board I serve on, and literally the next day, she had an opportunity to actually lead a workshop for that organization. So that all happened within 24 hours. I didn't ask for anything in return. Having the conversation with this wonderful woman named Natalie, after that conversation, I was so impressed that I introduced her, again to the executive director of a board whose organization I serve on and was able to facilitate an opportunity for her. That was a perfect example of how it wasn't a huge lift on my part yet it enormously helped Natalie and it also helped the organization for which the board I serve on.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely, and it also goes to the fact that we get so busy in our lives, that we sometimes go through phases where we feel like we have to say no to even have time to breathe, and then you have to balance that, because you also have some good advice, you say, "Always take the meeting." Tell us more about that and why that is so important.

Susan McPherson: Well, I have the proof in the pudding for that, and that is, my company is now eight years old and seven years in, I realized that 98% of our business had been inbound, which is pretty remarkable for a consulting firm. I realized that in my twenties and thirties, all those meetings I took, that were yes, challenging at times because of course I was busy, those people came back 20, 30 years later, and it wasn't like when I was 25, I was saying, "Oh, I'm going to be calling on you in 2020 when I have a company, to see if you'll buy services from me." It was not even a glimmer in my brain. So every single person we meet is a conduit to something else, to someone else, to something new, to learn something about ourselves, and if we don't open those doors and we don't take those meetings, we are missing tremendous opportunities. I fervently believe that, and I live that every day.

Bobbi Rebell: It's so true. So many major things in my life have happened by almost chance meetings, little meetings that you didn't think were going to be meaningful, and then they do end up having a huge impact sometimes right then, as in the case you described earlier and sometimes not for years later, and that's also important. They're true friendships. The final thing I wanted to just touch on is you talk about expressing gratitude and that's something that sometimes gets lost in the hustle and bustle. I've certainly been guilty of not always properly thanking everyone that's done amazing things for me. It's tough. We get so busy and so distracted and are just keeping up with the world, certainly as we get back into, hopefully some sense of normalcy now. Talk to me more about expressing gratitude and specific ways that people can do that.

Susan McPherson : Don't overthink it. Sometimes just a quick phone call, a quick text, a DM, shining a light on socials, showcasing someone else. Those are all very immediate, quick and simple and easy. You don't have to go so far as sending flowers or sending cookies, although that's certainly a wonderful thing to do, but whatever is going to be the most expedient way, sometimes, is the best way, because that's the way it'll get done. But I think it's important to plan one bit of gratitude, every single day, and that includes gratitude for yourself.

Bobbi Rebell: And as you mentioned earlier, it's important to give, but it's also important to be practical and also look out for yourself.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely.

Bobbi Rebell: Susan, this has been so wonderful. Tell us more about where people can find out more about you. We know your book is going to be on sale, literally everywhere. So I hope people will pick it up and continue to get all of these incredible gems. It is very readable. I will tell you that.

Susan McPherson: Aww.

Bobbi Rebell: It's precise, specific, practical in all the best ways, and yet it has the warmth of your personality in it. Where can people follow up with you, once they get the book?

Susan McPherson: First of all, I am glowing. Thank you so much. Hearing that from you means the world to me, Bobbi. I have so much respect for you personally, professionally. Thank you. You can find me at my company's website, McPStrategies.com. I'm on all the social platforms with the name @SusanMcP1 and of course the book can be purchased at your local bookstores or any of the major online booksellers, and I am grateful for you to give it a shot.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Susan McPherson: Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: All right, guys, that was an awesome interview. Here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one, create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it, but you get the idea and by the way, feel free to send me your suggestions for how I can implement Susan's methodology for this, but we're going to go with the phone for now.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two, make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day. So I want to ask you guys, what little things make big impacts on your days? DM me on Instagram, @BobbiRebell1, I would love more ideas. And while you're at it, help me give away some incredible books. We are giving away copies of books from the incredible authors featured on The Financial Grownup Podcast this year, including Susan's. In order to win, you just have to take a screenshot of the podcast when you're listening to it on your phone, post it on social, so on Instagram. That's @BobbiRebell1, tag me, that's what I mean to say and DM me, to make sure that I see it.

Bobbi Rebell: And we also have a new way to win. If you are on Clubhouse, please join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Then DM me on Instagram and let me know that you joined so I don't miss it and would like to be entered to win a book. Also a reminder, if you are looking for fun and unique gifts for graduation, mother's day, father's day, birthdays, or just frankly, to treat yourself, which we all deserve, take a look at our new grownupgear.com store, the profits there help to support this free podcast. And again, we really appreciate that support. Go out, treat yourself, maybe some friends through a copy of Susan's book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships. Big thanks to Susan, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell: The financial grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator, so yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show, right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life, and this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup List. Go to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com, and if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Author Lindsey Pollak watched her thriving speaking career hit a wall when the pandemic hit a year ago. The career and workplace expert realized she had ignored her own advice, and had all her eggs in one basket. Lindsey gets refreshingly candid about how bad it got, what she did, and how we can all do better. 

Financial Grownup Tip #1: Social media is more than social. Certainly during the pandemic depending on your business,  it has become an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the ones that fit your business. It’s not just about being social- it is about career success -and sometimes survival as well.

Financial Grownup Tip #2- If you are on social media- don’t forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in clubhouse- raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only but I do have invites so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on clubhouse- Money Tips for Grownups. I’d love to connect with you there. 

Buy your copy of Recalculating : Navigate Your Career Through The Changing World of Work.

Follow Lindsey!

• Twitter- @LindseyPollak

• LinkedIn- Lindsey Pollak

• Website- lindseypollak.com

• Instagram- @LindseyPollak

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript-

Bobbi Rebell: Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes. And thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Lindsey Pollak : I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures in speaking bookings. And my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to financial grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: It's been a year guys. If you want to get technical, it's been a year and about a week. Although most of us, frankly, lost count of the days and didn't even know which day of the week it was for a while. The pandemic put so many of our lives on hold and so many of our businesses in the tank.

Bobbi Rebell: For people who make their living talking to people in-person, they went from thriving to, well, there's no cute pun here. The business died. There was nothing there. For my friend, Lindsey Pollak, who is a top speaker and bestselling author, ironically in the career space, her career literally went poof last March with no end in sight.

Bobbi Rebell: This was literally unchartered territory for pretty much anyone alive these days. Two weeks to stop the spread was one thing, but getting back to packed rooms with over 1,000 people as she was used to, yeah, crickets. Even now. Lindsey agreed to share her experience with us in the hopes that many of us can at least relate to and get some solace from her experiences.

Bobbi Rebell: She also has, as she always has, great and specific advice on how we can better be prepared for the future and the unimaginable. She also managed to write a fantastic book in quarantine. It is called Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work. we do a little sneak peak at the end of our interview. Here is Lindsey Pollak. Lindsey Pollak, you are a financial grownup and welcome back to the show.

Lindsey Pollak : It is an honor to be back for the second time. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk about your new book, which was written in quarantine and has a lot of really relevant advice for anyone who is thinking of recalculating. That's also the name of the book. But first you brought us a very relevant story that happened to you just when quarantine was starting. And sadly, too many of us can relate to this. Tell us your money story, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I'd be happy to. So, like many people in March of 2020, everything stopped and everything changed. And I think we hear about food service people and certain jobs that you know would be destroyed by the pandemic or pushed off. Professional speakers were in that category.

Lindsey Pollak : I had at that time, been doing about 70 to 80 live speaking events per year. And I had a fully booked calendar and a lot of deposits. And within a two week period, I lost six figures. I can't even say it. I stumble on the words. I lost six figures in speaking bookings and my calendar went from completely full to completely empty.

Bobbi Rebell: Just to explain how speaking works, you had deposits. How does the contract work? Did you have to return all the deposits or did they reschedule or was it just gone?

Lindsey Pollak : So, you know what's interesting is, my contract said that the deposits were nonrefundable and that we would make our best efforts to reschedule if something got canceled. Several people took me up on that, I will say, and let me keep the deposits.

Lindsey Pollak : Several requested for their own financial difficulties to return it and I made the decision to do that, to keep the relationships because I understood that people were in really tough times. So I did return them. So it sort of went beyond the contract. And for anything that had been booked, but not yet paid, of course, that just disappeared. Bobbi Rebell: So then what?

Lindsey Pollak : It was tough. And I'll tell you a couple of things, because it's a financial podcast. Number one, just by luck, about a year before my bookkeeper had said, "You really need to have a credit line for your business." I had contacted my bank, Chase Bank, and gotten a very significant credit line because I have good credit that I'm extremely proud of. It's one of the proudest things in my life that I have good credit. And I got a significant six-figure credit line, which saved me.

Lindsey Pollak : I paid it all back ultimately over time, but having that fund to dip into to make sure that I could continue to pay my assistant and my rent and so on. I cut back on expenses tremendously, and I started reaching out. And it's really interesting as I didn't have a plan for where the money would come from, but I've always relied on the fact that relationships are where opportunities come from.

Lindsey Pollak : And I just called people, checked in, "How are you doing? What's going on? How are you?" I mean, for about four weeks, it was just, "Oh my gosh, what's happening?" And slowly but surely, a relationship with a UK firm that had been pending for a while, took off. Slowly but surely, people who had never booked for years were like, "Hey, could you do a session on how to work remotely?" And I was like, "Yes, I can." That had been one slide in my presentation. And now, suddenly that became a presentation.

Lindsey Pollak : It was nowhere near what I had projected for the year, but the year turned out okay. And this miracle moment was on May 5th. I'll never remember. I got an email from my agent about something totally different. And at the very bottom of the email, she said, "And by the way, do you think you might want to write a book during this pandemic experience? I feel like you might have something to say." And that one sentence turned into Recalculating, which we're here today to talk about.

Bobbi Rebell: So perfect. So you basically pivoted from doing speaking to going back to book writing, which you were always doing. This is I think number four, number five? I can't keep track of you, Lindsey.

Lindsey Pollak : I think of them like children and I had been writing a book every five years. And I had written the remix last year in 2019. And I say it's like my accidental fourth child. I didn't mean to have a child so quickly after my third, but so it happens. Bobbi Rebell: Well, it's a wonderful book. We're going to talk about it soon, but tell me what is the lesson for our listeners from this?

Lindsey Pollak : It's something that I think is such a cliche, but true. Necessity is the mother of invention. I was a speaker. I was like, I'm a speaker. That's what I do. And I realized I can't only be a speaker.

Lindsey Pollak : And when I look at the people I most admire in my world, people like you, it's do you have a podcast? Do you have online courses? Do you have newsletters? Do you get paid to write? And what I remembered is sometimes you go back to basics, which I think is the other lesson.

Lindsey Pollak : When I was first starting out, I didn't make enough money from speaking. So I was freelance writing. I was coaching. I was doing resume reviews. I was doing anything I could. And I realized I have to get back into that mindset that I'm not "just a speaker." And that's what led to these other opportunities.

Lindsey Pollak : Now, I don't want to say it was easy. I don't want to say I wasn't scared, or I didn't stay up at night, or I wasn't uncomfortable dipping into my savings or my credit line, which I did do. But ultimately, what got me through it, was going back to basics and realizing I have to get creative.

Bobbi Rebell: Looking back, what would you have done differently in terms of setting up your life? Would you have diversified your business more in advance?

Lindsey Pollak : Yes. Sometimes success is not so good because you get so deep into one area that you put all your eggs in one basket. And what's really funny is I've advised job seekers for years, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Even if you're happily employed, keep your network going. Don't just apply for jobs in one field." And I had to take my own advice.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said. And it's good to know that even people far along and super successful in their careers, sometimes have to take their own advice, which they move past. I love this. You brought with you an everyday money tip and I'm going to give a little bit of a spoiler. One part of this made you $2,000 in just extra cash. Tell us your everyday money tip because this is so fascinating. I had no idea this was such a big thing.

Lindsey Pollak : Okay. So at my heart, I grew up in Norwalk, Connecticut, the burbs. I am just a suburban girl. And in my high school, I remember they had all these categories, best dressed, best looking, all that. There was informal stuff that we would just send around to be silly.

Lindsey Pollak : And mine was most likely to drive a station wagon in the suburbs. Which by the way, I have not done, but my money tip was to clip coupons. And in the old days, I remember going to the grocery store with my mom and she had an envelope. Right. And she would hand the coupons to the checkout person. And apparently, I used to play that at home, handing the coupons to the checkout person. Bobbi Rebell: I think we all did.

Lindsey Pollak : I think we all did. Right. Bobbi Rebell: My mom definitely had the coupons. And a whole organizer. There was a coupon organizer box.

Lindsey Pollak : Oh yeah. A little box. Bobbi Rebell: And she would organize what she was going to bring that day. And you were waiting for the double coupon day.

Lindsey Pollak : And here we are, talking about personal finances on a podcast. So, the modern day version of that, it used to be called Ebates. Now it's called Rakuten. Rakuten is I have this little widget on my browser and on my phone that tells me that I can get cash back if you shop through Ebates or Rakuten.

Lindsey Pollak : And over the past several years, I've made $2,000 using that little widget to get little discounts on things. And yeah, of course, I look like, "Ooh, that's fine. I can get a little bit more cash back than if I shop at such and such." And it's funny. I always did it. My husband would make fun of me like, "Ooh, you got your $7.53 check today." And then I looked and I saw, wow, over a few years, I've made $2,000 back and that's real money.

Bobbi Rebell: And that was basically on money you were probably going to spend anyway. Now you might've chosen one retailer over another because of it, but still, it's money.

Lindsey Pollak : Target is my favorite one. The Target app I've saved, I think $110. We've been quarantining in Connecticut. And I think I've saved $110 this year, which is only $10 a month, but hey, I used that credit for other good stuff.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, absolutely. So I have in my hand, my early copy. This is one of my favorite perks of doing this podcast. I have an early copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work, which you wrote during quarantine. So, tell us what is different now, both in quarantine and hopefully, very soon as we emerge from quarantine, in terms of how we recalculate our careers and our life?

Lindsey Pollak : The first thing to think about is, recalculating is not one thing that you do in a moment and then it's over. Right. It's not like a fork in the road. I think we all need to be re-skilling, up-skilling pivoting, diversifying all the things that we talked about in my own story.

Lindsey Pollak : What we've learned through COVID is you cannot coast. Right. You can't just say, "Well, I'm comfortable where I am and I'm going to keep moving forward." You probably never could. But I think we all know that now more than ever.

Lindsey Pollak : And a really important piece of that, that I know you're so good at and is important to you, is if you're not getting good at virtual communication, and remote communication, and email, and texting, and Slack, and social media, you are not keeping up with the tools that you need to have to succeed now and into the future. It's no longer a nice to have. It's an absolute must have skill.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes, I am always learning different things. I mean, for example, right now, I started this merch store and I had to learn all this stuff about how to connect it to Instagram and so on. But it's actually really fun and you feel very accomplished. So, technical skills and learning new ways of doing business is very important.

Bobbi Rebell: And on that note, a lot of people have questions about how to use social media differently while we're in this pandemic, because it does become more important when we can't be social in person. Right.

Lindsey Pollak : Absolutely. But I think there are parallels. And so, the parallels are you've got to remember that each social network, if you're looking at it from a professional standpoint, like networking to find a job or new clients. Just like it's different to chat with people at the supermarket than to chat with people at a black tie gala, you have to see the social networks as different. You can't be the same or use the same language and style, or even necessarily profile photo, on Twitter as you would on LinkedIn, or on Instagram, or on Clubhouse, or what have you. So, number one is to acknowledge that they're all different.

Lindsey Pollak : Number two is I think you do use them in the same way you would in-person networking. So, you and I, let's say, may bond on Facebook because you're wearing a cute shirt or I see a cute picture of your son. I'm not going to say, "Do you have a job." Or, "Can I send you my resume?" I'm going to say, "Hey, great photo. Hey, do you want to get together and talk sometime about work stuff?" It's an entry point, just as if I saw you on the sidelines of a soccer game, we would talk about the game. I wouldn't start to launch into my sales pitch.

Lindsey Pollak : So, I think that social media should be seen as these personal moments where you might "bump into somebody." And then you take it to the next level off of that social network to have the professional conversation. LinkedIn is a bit different. I think LinkedIn is like a professional conference where people go, no one's going to be offended if you try to network professionally on LinkedIn. That's the point. It's like being at a conference. But for all the other sites, it's about building and solidifying real, authentic, personal relationships. And then you take the conversation elsewhere after that. Bobbi Rebell: And what do you think about Clubhouse? Because you're very successful on Clubhouse. I love dropping in on the rooms that you're in and the conversations. What's your take and your advice to people on how to use Clubhouse?

Lindsey Pollak : So that's a really good example of like, "I don't know, I'll give it a try. This is a new thing, and I'm going to try it." And I wasn't sure. To me, it's like a mix between listening to the radio and dropping in on a podcast or a webinar. But sometimes you get to talk.

Lindsey Pollak : What's absolutely amazing to me is how much free advice is there. I'm providing it myself. I do a career chat every Wednesday at one o'clock with a bunch of career experts and people just ask their questions. And what's really cool is, not only do we give our thoughts or advice, but other people on the call can raise their hand and say, "Hey, I know somebody." Or, "Oh, I have an idea for you."

Lindsey Pollak : And so, what's happening is like these conference moments in the Clubhouse app. So I'd really encourage people to give it a try. And if it's not for you, it's not for you, but it's just another tool where you might bond. And just funny things like bumping into each other. I was on it yesterday. I went to graduate school in Australia at this school called Monash University, which is just outside of Melbourne. Most people have never heard of it.

Lindsey Pollak : There was a woman on the call who had gone to Monash University and had moved to the United States. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, you're kidding." And we met on Clubhouse. So you just never know what kinds of moments like that can happen wherever you decide to show up, but you have to decide to show up.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely. So, everyone should follow Lindsey on Clubhouse. And also me. I'm on Clubhouse too.

Lindsey Pollak : Yeah. Bobbi Rebell: And I'm still learning the ropes, but I'm having a great time on it too. So, please follow both of us. Your book Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work is going to be available everywhere, March 23rd. Where can people get in touch with you?

Lindsey Pollak : So my website is my name, lindseypollock.com. I'll spell it for you because it's a doozy. L-I-N-D-S-E-Y-P-O-L-L-A-K. I'm the only one in the world who spells it that exact way. And I'd be delighted to connect with anyone there or on social media.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Lindsey Pollak : Thank you, Bobbi. Bobbi Rebell: Here we go. Financial grownup tip number one. Social media is a lot more than social these days. Certainly during the pandemic, depending on your business, it became an important tool for your career. Take the time to master the onesthat fit your business. It's not just about being social. It is about career success and sometimes career survival as well.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two. If you are on social media, don't forget to participate. Staying on the sidelines will keep you there. So for example, if you are in Clubhouse, raise your hand and add to the conversation. By the way, it is invitation only, but I do have invites, so DM me if you need one. And please join my club on Clubhouse, Money tips for Grownups. I'd love to connect with you there.

Bobbi Rebell: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a screenshot and share it on social media. And if you tag me, @bobbirebell1, that will also enter you into our book and merch giveaways. I also want to encourage everyone to pre-order a copy of Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work by Lindsey Pollak. It is a bit complicated, but it really helps Lindsey if you pre-order it.

Bobbi Rebell: And this episode is dropping about a week before it's released, so you still have a week to get it done. And it is truly a big deal to Lindsey, so thank you for doing that. I promise you will love it. And big thanks to my friend, Lindsey Pollak, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell: The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell: Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell: While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram, @bobbirebell1, and on Twitter,

@ bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcast. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Now that we may be settling in to work from home for the long haul, it’s time to optimize our space and take out the stress so we can function like grownups. Bill Hirsch,  Architect and Author of The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live

5 Easy Ways to Center Your Home on a Small Budget

• Step One - Take the Homebody Quiz

• Step Two - Work to improve the “earth-grounding” of your home. 

• Step Three – Remove the Pebbles. Pebbles are the things that create negative energy and produce emotional irritation and discord.

• Step Four – Add Pearls. These are things that contribute positive energy to your home. 

• Step Five – Arrange furniture throughout the house in ways that provide “private” and peaceful places for individuals to enjoy some solitude.
  

Episode Links:

• Bill’s website - www.wellcenteredhome.com

• Bill’s book The Well-Centered Home; Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live

Follow Bill!

• Instagram - @the.well_centered.home

• Twitter - @williamhirsch2

• Facebook - @centeryourhome

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn-https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbirebellkaufman

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

TRANSCRIPT:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hard to believe, but we are marking an anniversary. What a year it has been for so many of us working from home, or as I've come to think about it, living at work. Remember when they said 15 days to stop the spread. Did any of us think it would be a year? Well, not me, but here we are. And whenever I get down on things, I circled back to this book I became obsessed with. It is called The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness and Happiness Where You Live. It's by architect, Bill Hirsch. And I know when he wrote it well before the pandemic, he had no idea what would happen and the impact his book might have on people like myself.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview which was recorded last year, Bill gives us five ways to improve our work from home situation. And yes, fake plants are a thing and they work. You're going to want to take notes, but pro-tip, everything you need is on my website. bobbirebell.com, including summaries of the show via show notes, but also full transcripts of every show. So just enjoy the interview. I'll be back on the other side. Here is Bill Hirsch.

Bobbi Rebell:
Bill Hirsch, So nice to have you here.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, it's nice to be with you. Thanks for inviting me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I truly enjoyed your book, The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness and Happiness Where You Live. I should also mention, in addition to being an author, you are an architect. People that read the book, that will make total sense. This is very appropriate in this time when we were spending so much time in our homes.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, it really is. Even in normal times, studies have shown that we spend somewhere around 70% of our lives in our homes so they have a huge influence on us. And now, what are we spending? 99% of our lives in our homes or a whole lot of people are. And it's made people scrutinize their home and appreciate or become uncomfortable with certain aspects of their home much more than before. I have a client right now who told me he's cleaned his garage three times.

Bobbi Rebell:
You brought with you five easy ways to center your home on a small budget. Before we get to those, I want you to explain what does it mean to center your home? Because that's sort of the basis of this book.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, centering, the term is used in the similar way to how it's used for meditation and increasing self-awareness where you're pulling the things that pull you in extremes in different directions together and getting your emotions and your psyche into a more central and calming position.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's not the same though as Feng Shui? I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly.

Bill Hirsch:
It's Feng Shui I think is the usual pronunciation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Feng Shui.

Bill Hirsch:
Yes, Feng Shui does a lot of that. It's intended to make things be more auspicious is one of the terms that they use and people take that into better fortune. That doesn't necessarily mean that per se, but it's a method, almost a strict set of rules method for making your home improve the energy around you and make your life better and happier. The difference with a well-centered home and home-centering is that it's more specifically tailored to you and your personality or what we call your homebody type.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get to the five easy ways to center your home on a small budget that you brought for us today. The first one is kind of figuring out who you are. You've put together a quiz so that we can figure this out.

Bill Hirsch:
Exactly. It's a simple 20 question quiz that's in the book and it produces results that let you know which of four homebody types you favor. But it's also a quiz that doesn't pigeonhole you or categorize you in a strict way because you can have a secondary tendency towards another homebody type.

Bill Hirsch:
And so, the purpose isn't to say, "You're this," but the purpose is to help you see more about what your personal tendencies and preferences might be, so that when you do the things to center your home, you're doing them in a way that is much more tailored and customized to you, personally.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I took the quiz. I was a Galileo. There's four different types. We don't have time to go through all of those and I'll leave it for people to see in the book. As an example, what does a Galileo mean?

Bill Hirsch:
Well, a Galileo would be a more technically oriented, scientifically minded person. And by that, I mean, a Galileo is someone who wants to know how things work. I have another homebody type, Plato. Usually, Plato wants to know why things work, but a Galileo would want to know how they work. So things that are technically oriented, demonstrate precision, things that have clearly defined edges and purposes, those would be things that would be attractive to a Galileo homebody type.

Bobbi Rebell:
Functionality. All right. Let's go to step two. You talk about earth grounding. Now, when people hear this especially if they're in urban areas, they might say, "Well, how am I going to do that?" You have some ways. It's about connecting your home with nature, but you have some ways to do that even if you are not on a beautiful farm or something in the country.

Bill Hirsch:
Right. There have been a number of medical studies that show that people actually recover from surgeries or illnesses faster when they're exposed to nature. And they found that this also works and provides that benefit when they're exposed to images of nature. So, if you live on the 18th floor of a high rise apartment and you have windows on one side, and that's a view of another apartment building, you can still enhance your earth grounding aspect by including images of nature, landscape scenes, items that are nature. I always suggest a bonsai tree being a very good type of an element, to add a pearl to add to your home because it's miniaturized nature and requires some degree of maintenance, which is a good aspect.

Bill Hirsch:
If you don't have enough windows to look out to all sides of your home, mirrors can be a very easy way to add a semblance of a window on a non-windowed wall. This could be a simple framed mirror. It does not necessarily meaning a giant wall of mirrors, but a frame mirror implies a window, especially if it reflects of the true window on the other side of the room.

Bobbi Rebell:
I also want to circle back to what you said about the plant. It's interesting because many people would say, "I'm going to get a plant that's low maintenance so that it stays alive." You're saying, get a plant that you do have to maintain.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, another concept that I talk about in the book that I didn't put it in the five easy steps would be peopling spaces. And peopling is a verb in this case. It means how you make spaces relate to people and how you make them be spaces where you expect to see people as opposed to these austere inhuman kinds of spaces that we often encounter.

Bill Hirsch:
One of the keys to peopling spaces is to have something that requires maintenance, because that tells your subconscious that a person has been there and a person will return because the maintenance says so. Peopling, there are a couple of other aspects and that would be things that suit the human scale, something that's the size you could imagine putting your hand on it and it would fit. Things that are similar to the size and scale of human beings. These types of things. A row of columns can be a really nice peopling aspect. And we don't think about these things overtly, but I'm telling you that inside in your inner thoughts, your mind is reacting to these things. And these are the ways that I explain why we like some spaces much better than we'd like other spaces, even if we can't put it into words.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Step three, this is something that I have already started doing now that I read your book. And that is removed the pebbles. We are not talking literally pebbles, my friends.

Bill Hirsch:
Right. Pebbles is charm that I've applied to things that provide negative energy or our irritants there. The term comes from a pebble in your shoe. A pebble in your shoe, you might walk along and tolerate, but no matter what you do, it is still an irritant and it's still disrupting things. And the only cure is to remove the pebble.

Bill Hirsch:
So in your home, you have a lot of things that are potentially pebbles. Things like light bulbs that are burned out, doors that squeak or stick, things like that. A clutter is certainly a pebble. Any of these kinds of things that just aren't in the right places.

Bill Hirsch:
One of the things I rail against are lights that are mispositioned. Like in your kitchen, if the light's behind you and you step up to the countertop, your head and your body cast a shadow on the area where you're trying to work. And that's clearly a pebble that you might put up with. But if you instead had a light that was overhead, that shined down on the surface where you're working, you'll be much happier and you won't have that negative influence. So, pebbles are things that need to be removed or remedied.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that goes especially for workspaces, is to really pay attention to your lighting in our workspace. You talk a lot in the book about different kinds of lights and how that can impact how we feel and how productive we are.

Bill Hirsch:
Exactly. Lighting is measured by its color rendition index. That would be the amount of the spectrum that it actually emits. If it's missing part of that, then the light can be uncomfortable. Early fluorescents and most fluorescents are missing a part of the spectrum and they tend to make things look gray and give people an uncomfortable pallor to their face. And you don't really want that. The new led lights, some of them are very blue and harsh. They have too high of color temperature. You want to look for that when you buy the lights. And you find some that are more daylight type that are a warmer color temperature. They will literally make you feel better and it certainly makes everything look better. These are really important things for homework spaces to get all of that right.

Bobbi Rebell:
And speaking of that, let me just ask you here. You did talk a lot about color as well. What is the best color for a workspace at home?

Bill Hirsch:
Well, everybody in the color world will tell you that the color that produces the least potentially negative reaction will be grays. And grays that are warmer grays, meaning they have a brown undertone rather than cooler grays that have a blue undertone tend to be even more comforting. Although, that's not to say, stay completely away from the cooler grays, just be careful that they can get to be a little harder. And then, green is always a comfortable color for people. Colors like red and orange, they're specific colors that really, you need to clearly favor them. They can be disruptive. They might make a space too energetic for working. And then, mild blues are good too, but be a little careful with those because they can get to be too blue. That's where the grays maybe are the safest choice.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes. I actually have a gray area where I work. And by the way, you do give specific literally, paint colors in the book that people can look up and choose those, or choose something similar if that's what works for them. Let's move on to step four. And this is a little bit more positive. We're talking about bringing a positive energy into your home. You call this adding pearls.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, pearls are the counterpoint to the pebbles. Pearls, if you think about them, they were an irritation that got into the oyster like a piece of sand or something, and the oyster started building a coating around that and produced a beautiful pearl out of it. So pearls in your home are the same sorts of things. These would be things that you would want to add into your space that give you delight, attract your attention, make you think. You, as a Galileo might like things that express their technical aspects or are intricate.

Bill Hirsch:
One of the examples I often use would be a clock that is mechanical and shows you how it is mechanical even though it's a bit of an old fashioned type of thing, maybe a relic from our past now that we're digital, everything. But they're fascinating. And they're the kind of thing that... Pearls are the sorts of things that if you glanced at them and not even consciously examine them, they still do positive things to your psyche. And that's the whole idea of how your well-centered home can support your emotional wellbeing and mindfulness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Step five has to do with something that can be really [inaudible 00:16:37] free, just arranging your furniture in ways that provide private and peaceful places so you can have some solitude, something a lot of us really need with all of this work from home and live pretty much all the time from home these days. Tell us more about that.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, you're right. It's a critical aspect of working from home. You can't really just set up your desk as part of the kitchen table and then expect that you're going to work efficiently and comfortably. That's going to wear on you. So if you can create a spot, and it can be a very small area and define it with some aspect of the furnishings, it might be a small screen like the one behind me here in my office, that just sort of define the space and when you're in it, you know where the edges are. And also, the other people in your family know that's the office and it becomes dedicated to you.

Bill Hirsch:
This is an important aspect of just sort of living in your well-centered home in that, everybody in the house needs to have a place to call their own where they can sit. It might be corner of a room. It might be a particular spot on the sofa. When they're there, they're in their own space. And then, you have other spaces that are designed for interaction with others. You need to think through these and plan them out more purposefully instead of just letting them happen by accident.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I think that's one of the most important things, going back even to the concept of pebbles, that you need to pay attention to these things that we're so busy living our daily lives, that we haven't necessarily spent the time to proactively set up our homes. And as we settle into what for some people could be much longer than we ever expected, it's something that we really need to be more mindful of. Your book is a wonderful tool for that. Where can people find out more about you and the book?

Bill Hirsch:
You can look it all up at the website, which is www.wellcenteredhome.com. There's a lot of information there. If they would like to buy the book or read a sample from it, it's available on amazon.com. Just type in The Well-Centered Home. It'll take you right there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Bill Hirsch:
Well, it's been a pleasure being with you. I want to hear back from you on how well-centered your home becomes.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a deal.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you know from the top of the podcast, I am obsessed with the fake plant thing. And all winter, I got a little mood boost when I looked out my window of my bedroom to my teeny-tiny New York city balcony and I saw that greenery, all fake by the way, that Bill inspired me to get. Tell me, what was your favorite tip from the interview or do you have any other tips? DM me on Instagram at bobbirebell1. On Twitter, I am @bobbirebell. And if you screen grab this podcast and post it on Instagram stories and tag me at bobbirebell1, you'll be entered to win a free book from one of our Financial Grownup authors and merch from my new grownupgear.com store.

Big thanks to Bill Hirsch, author of The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness and Happiness Where You Live. Go get his book for more great tips. And it goes without saying, but I'll say it, thank you to Bill Hirsch for helping us all work from home like the financial grownups we are.

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda [Savan 00:20:28] is our talent coordinator and content creators. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup.

Stay in touch on Instagram at bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend, and maybe leave a review On Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Are you working harder than ever and not getting paid what you are worth? Claire Wasserman explains why so many of us get short-changed and shares 5 specific strategies that will upsize our income and compensation. Plus, Claire reveals the behind the scenes story of AOC’s decision to run for political office and her role in the gutsy move. 

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Claire’s 5 Tips For How To Get Paid More!

Tip #1-

Talk to real people about their salary. You could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to a real person. Remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Tip #2-

Have three numbers. I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. This is a big problem because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. Oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter. So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there. So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Tip #3-

Talk about the whole picture. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Tip #4-

Talk about your value add. I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but make the case for yourself. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company." If you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. Discounts with vendors? Maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money. That is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees. Have testimonials too. You should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review.

Tip #5-

You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. So how do you address this? You use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." You've said your big number. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together."

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy Tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally, makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

Bobbi Rebell: I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good. And that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of T-shirts sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more, that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently, like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt.

Bobbi Rebell: The most comfy sweatshirts, T-Shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more, give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost grownup friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle @GrownupGear, and DMS with any questions. And thank you, because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup Guide, five ways to get paid more with Ladies Get Paid's Claire Wasserman.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey, grownup friends. Do you want to make more money? Yeah I thought so, and yeah, me too. The harsh reality is that the pandemic has been brutal, not just for our health, but also, yeah, for our wealth. Because how do you ask for more money from your boss, or how do you raise prices on your customers in a pandemic? I mean, we should be grateful just to have our jobs, just to have our businesses running if that's the case, which is true. That doesn't mean that we don't deserve to get paid more, and that doesn't mean that we can't get paid more. And we should not assume that those who make the decisions can't and aren't willing to pay us more. Right?

Bobbi Rebell: So I was thrilled to get to talk with Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid about her new book aptly titled, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. So, if you are open to making more money, this episode is definitely for you. By the way, no need to take notes. As always, the show notes have a quick summary of the episode, and all the links that you will need, and even a transcript of the entire interview. You just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and click on the Financial Grownup tab to bring you to the podcast section. There's also a search box on the top right if you want to search for this or a past episode.

Bobbi Rebell: Okay, my friends here is Claire Wasserman of Ladies Get Paid.

Bobbi Rebell: Claire Wasserman, welcome to the Financial Grownup Podcast, and congrats on your new book, Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career.

Claire Wasserman: Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell: We're going to talk more about the book later in the show, but I want to get right into the five ways to get paid more that you brought for us. The first one is about talking to real people. And that sounds easy, but in this age, it can be complicated.

Claire Wasserman: Well, you could do research on Glassdoor all day, all night, it's just not going to be as accurate as it would be if you talk to real people.

Claire Wasserman: Here's the good news, if you are nervous, remember, every single person wants and needs money, and every single person is trying to figure out how much to charge. So, if you were the first person in your friend group to talk about money, you are actually doing them a favor.

Claire Wasserman: Now, you don't have to ask people specifically, "How much do you make?" Because sometimes that can feel a little uncomfortable. So instead, how about you bring them the research that you've done? "Listen, I'm an art director, five years into my career. I am working for a company that has 10 people." And please note here, I'm talking about context. Context is key. Tell them, "This is the research I did between X and Y. This is the salary. I think I should be getting paid. Am I off base, or, more abstractly, what's the ballpark that you're making?" Just remember, you want to talk to white men also, because they're the ones who are getting paid the most.

Claire Wasserman: And if any of them were trying to figure out how to be allies, which a lot of them are, this is a great way that they can support you. So don't be afraid to even cold email people, find them on LinkedIn, tell them you're trying to figure out your salary and you'd love for them to be an ally. How much do they make? Would they be willing to share, even just a ballpark. The worst thing that can happen is they just don't respond.

Bobbi Rebell: The second tip to get paid more is, "Have three numbers." What does that mean, Claire?

Claire Wasserman: Well, I think too often we go into a negotiation with only one number prepared, or maybe even no numbers prepared and we just completely go off of what they say. Big problem, big problem, because, first of all, we don't know if they're going to be giving an offer that is the highest offer. I mean, oftentimes, it really is just a starting point. They're providing a number with the expectation that you will counter.

Claire Wasserman: So, what's your counter? And the counter should be at the very top of the range that you have researched. Then you have to have a comeback. Don't just stop after the first back and forth with them. Your second number, it's going to be the middle of the range. And the last number is your bottom line, and you hope to never have to get there.

Claire Wasserman: So start with the top number, they're going to counter, then you're going to counter, and hopefully, you get to some kind of compromise. I mean, that's the whole point of a negotiation is for both people to get to a place where they feel like they've gotten something.

Bobbi Rebell: Even though you have those three numbers in your head, is it better to try to get them to make the first offer, or is it better for you to throw out the number first?

Claire Wasserman: I have a controversial opinion here, because I think when you do research, a lot of other coaches will tell you, "Never be the first one to say the number, because you might low ball yourself."

Claire Wasserman: If you've done the market research and they're paying in the market research, when you were the first person to say it, you're anchoring high. If they are the first person, they may be anchoring low. And it sometimes can feel a little uncomfortable to say, "Well, that wasn't really what I was thinking," or it might throw you off, maybe even demoralizes you. So start with the number you want, but back it up with the research that you've done. You can even say, "I've spoken to a number of other people," if they ask, "Where did you get this number?"

Claire Wasserman: And you can also say things like, "This is the number, the market research that I found, but what are you proposing?" So it's not like you're ending the conversation with that first number.

Bobbi Rebell: And a lot of employers, though, try to find out what you were making before and anchor to that. How should people handle that? Because it also depends where you live.

Clair Wasserman: Exactly. So some states have passed what's called the Salary History Ban. The thinking behind that is if marginalized groups are getting paid less than other people from the beginning of their career, and every time that they get a raise, if that's always based on that original salary, well then, the gap will compound over time and will never catch up. So you can decline to respond, or you can be abstract, or tell them how much you got paid, but listen, that's not relevant to the ask now.

Claire Wasserman: I mean, even think about this, look at the original job description, write a new one for what you did. You're going to see a lot of changes. You're going to see experiences, growth, maybe totally different work that you ended up taking on. So the salary that was originally given to you was based on what you knew then. Regardless of what this next job is, and the market research, just know for yourself that you have grown by leaps and bounds since that first salary.

Bobbi Rebell: Number three, "You want to talk about the whole picture."

Claire Wasserman: Yes. And this is especially important now when people are negotiating during a time of economic instability, full compensation. You can negotiate for things other than money, things that bring you value, but maybe don't cost the company that much or nothing at all. So this could be career development, commissions, starting a signing bonus. If you're moving, moving costs, more vacation days. I mean, really anything that you think that you want, you just need to prioritize it, because you can't ask for everything.

Claire Wasserman: So I would say, "What are the top one, two and three items for full comp you can bring up?" I would personally bring it up after the salary conversation is over, only because I don't want them to use your full comp ask as leverage to get that salary down. And you want to ask for this, regardless of whether or not it's a pandemic, just be prepared that you may need to ask for more things, more full comp, if a time like now, if they're not saying yes to the salary.

Claire Wasserman: If you're wondering, "Well, Claire, if they don't have the money to give me a salary bump, how are they going to afford to give me a signing bonus, or pay for me to go to a conference?" A lot of times these come from different budgets. I know so many women who were not able to get the salary they wanted, but the signing bonus actually got them to a place where their now annual salary was exactly what they wanted to begin with. And that was simply because different budgets from different departments.

Claire Wasserman: So if you don't ask, a hundred percent, you're not getting. Again, the worst thing that can happen is they say, "No," which in my mind is really a, "Not yet." And then you can continue the conversation later.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that. A "Not yet." Not a "No." Are there benefits that have evolved during the pandemic that people may not be aware of, that they can ask for?

Claire Wasserman: Well, make sure that you're getting cell phone and internet and anything that requires you to do work from home, which by the way, I think most of us are doing, or a lot of us are doing that.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh yeah.

Claire Wasserman: I wonder if it can even be your laptop, paper, pen, I mean, really pretend you're a freelancer, to be honest. Your overhead costs, they should be paying for. If you want to continue flexibility, you've really proven now to them that it is possible. So if this fits for your lifestyle and you want to do a hybrid model, be prepared to ask, and you can make the case, I think, pretty easily.

Bobbi Rebell: Is that something you should ask before you start, or is that something that you should wait? Because traditionally, people often said "Go in 100% and be extremely present. And then once you prove yourself and they know you and they trust you, then you can ask for a hybrid approach." What's your take on that?

Claire Wasserman: Yeah. I mean, if this is a deal breaker for you, then you definitely want to bring this up maybe during the interview, otherwise you're wasting your own time along with theirs. You can also ask open-ended question of, "Do you have a hybrid model? Are there other people doing this? I'm just curious." So you can get a sense from the very beginning of their openness to the conversation.

Claire Wasserman: And then in terms of proving yourself, sure, but just to remember that it's not necessarily all or nothing. You can ask for maybe once or twice a month, or once a week, or something where they can see how this is going to go. And also proactively address all the reasons that they might be hesitant, so you're not just, "Hey, can I work from home?" And letting them tell you, "No, no, no." It's okay if you're concerned about team dynamic or communication, "Here's a way that we can address that." Just making it really easy for them to feel good about saying yes to you.

Bobbi Rebell: Exactly. And make it easy to say yes. The fourth way to get paid more is my favorite. It's about your value add, really.

Claire Wasserman: I think that's everything. The market research part is easy, but making the case... So it's you say, "Well, Hey, I want top dollar." "Well, hold on now. You have to prove to me that you're a top performer." You don't get the money, because you deserve it, even though, I know you deserve it. And it's also not about, "Here's the work that I did," because guess what? It was your job. It's really about, "Here is how I've impacted the bottom line at this company."

Claire Wasserman: Now, if you were in sales, or in other positions where it is just obvious how you've brought in money, lucky, lucky you. But for other folks, you need to do a little bit of sleuth work. So maybe it's, well, how much time did you save the company? Maybe you took over for another person who was on paid family leave, or your job really ballooned into multiple roles. You created efficient processes with your team. I mean, discounts with vendors, maybe you were able to negotiate. Saved time, saved money that is making money for the company. Even things about how you've been a leader for your team. You've brought enthusiasm and energy. Maybe you've worked there for a long time, and you've become a mentor. This is helping the company save money, because it's helping people continue to work there. It is expensive for them to lose employees. It is expensive for them to find new employees.

Claire Wasserman: So if you're a part of contributing to the culture of the company, it means as much as if you were able to land a client, but you just have to make the case. Have testimonials too. So through all throughout the year, I mean, first of all, you should be tracking your wins. You should be forwarding your wins. When you have great feedback, let's say from a client, go ahead and forward it to your boss. Their success hinges on your success, so this is actually making them feel really good about what they're doing. And when you go into negotiate, you can say, "Listen, the client, Bob, gave me this feedback." It's like you're an LLC of you. You're a product, and this is a customer review. I mean, not to put it so... It sounds not great, but that's the same thing. It's like, "Don't just take my word for it. Take Bob's word for it."

Bobbi Rebell: Okay. The fifth way to get paid more, this is something I think is very hard for a lot of women, because you tell them to be assertive, but you also have to have empathy.

Claire Wasserman: You have to ask with empathy. Especially for women, because we are, this is terrible, but there's this thing called the double bind. When women act outside of the social norm of how we're expected to act, we can get penalized by both men and women. So we are expected to be accommodating, put others before ourselves, be nice, be good girls, don't disrupt.

Claire Wasserman: Well, hold on now. If you go in and you ask for a lot of money, you're being assertive. Well, what's the chance that they're going to now look at you like you're aggressive? And women of color, I know you're nodding. This is something that they even more. So how do you address this? Well, you use the word we. "I'm sure we can figure this out together." But you've said your big number, I want to be clear. You've been assertive, but then you caveat it with, "Well, I'm sure we can figure this out together." Or, "I know this is a company that pays women equitably." That's actually shaming them a little bit.

Bobbi Rebell: I like that one.

Claire Wasserman: Or, "This is a company that is very fair. I'm sure we can figure this out together." And you can always, at the very end, just say, "Well, what would you do if you were in my shoes?" Bring it around. And do remember that we're all negotiating in this environment. They will, I think, automatically have empathy with you if you have empathy with them.

Bobbi Rebell: I don't want to let you go before we talk a little bit about your book directly. Like I said, it's called Ladies Get Paid: The Ultimate Guide to Breaking Barriers, Owning Your Worth, and Taking Command of Your Career. What was your favorite chapter?

Claire Wasserman: I don't think I have a favorite chapter. I just have favorite stories. So for those of you listening, if you're not familiar with the book, I structure it by following the lives of nine real women from the Ladies Get Paid community. Each of them is going through a different professional challenge. And as I tell their story, I stop along the way, and I give advice.

Claire Wasserman: A woman who came to the second workshop that I ever organized about getting unstuck in her career, and all the way, for the next year and a half, she wanted to be in some kind of civic engagement role, maybe in politics. And finally, at a town hall that I hosted about reinventing yourself, she stood up and she declared to the whole room, "I have always wanted to run for office, but people who look like me don't run for office." And she was a young Hispanic woman. And this was in front of a room, this is a hundred women. She said, "But I am going to run for office."

Claire Wasserman: And everybody cheered. And I cried. I cried, because I knew her. I knew her since college. We were so excited for her, because of how brave she was. She declared that she was going to do something that she was probably not going to succeed at. She was going to be going against an incumbent who was 20 or 30 years older than her, of course, a white man. And so here she was, saying, "I'm going to do this thing. And the chances that I even seed are so slim." But that was why it was courageous, and that's why we were so moved by her.

Claire Wasserman: Now, of course, a year later, she wins. Then she became the youngest Congresswoman ever. And her name is Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. So that story is my favorite. I guess I just gave away the ending of that story. If that wasn't enough to have you read the book... Well, you'll read the book. I know you all will.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah, the book was amazing. And by the way, it's important to know that even though the title is Ladies Get Paid, there is a lot of general career advice here. It's really powerful. And things that you haven't necessarily heard before are very original strategies that I think will be helpful to everyone.

Bobbi Rebell:My favorite chapter, by the way, was in level up section, you have different sections. I love chapter eight, Get Allies, because I think it's so important to have allies in your corner. As you mentioned, so many jobs are never publicly listed. And so it's important to have people that are looking out for you. And it's not always your direct inner circle. Sometimes it's your acquaintances that can be so valuable in helping your career.

Claire Wasserman: I have never gotten a job that I applied to online. I think I maybe got an interview once. My whole career has come from relationships that I've built over time. They've also been strategic. It's not mutually exclusive to be authentic and have a genuine friendship while also knowing how both of you are going to leverage each other's strengths and connections. And that, again, has been the key, the key to men, the old boys club that exists for a reason. And so we have to create the young girls club. How about that?

Bobbi Rebell: Yes. Well, it's the everyone club, really. And you have to... One of my favorite stories was the last one that you share, which is Madeline, who really investigated and was very upset to find that the men in her company were making multitudes of what she was making. I was a little bit upset by what the ending was, but it was a big lesson.

Claire Wasserman: So that name has been changed.

Bobbi Rebell: Yes.

Claire Wasserman: Her story is in the New Yorker. You can all figure it out.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah.

Claire Wasserman: It is wild. It is even more dramatic than I put in the book, because my editor thought, "Well, the people won't believe this." So you know what? Truth is stranger than fiction, and I'm so honored by her and everybody else who so vulnerably shared their struggles with me. I think it goes a long way to showing folks out there that they're not alone, which is the first step, undo any shame that you have in order to be open to learning and to helping others. We're all going through something. It's so relieving. It's like you just alleviate this weight off of you when you share your story, and I'm just honored that these women did that with me and for you all.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. And thank you for sharing all of those stories. Tell us more about where people can reach you. We know the book is available everywhere. Where can people be in touch with you and Ladies Get Paid?

Claire Wasserman: I would love you all to follow me on Instagram. I'm @ClaireGetsPaid. You can also follow @LadiesGetPaid on Instagram, and join our Slack group. We've got 75,000 women from all over the world. They've exchanged more than two million messages since 2016. So very talkative in there, and it's free. So just join at LadiesGetPaid.com, and we'll add you. And thanks, Bobbi, for having me. I always love an opportunity to share my story, and as you can tell, I like to talk.

Bobbi Rebell: If you loved what Claire had to say as much as I did, I hope you will, first of all, go buy her book. It's great. And I also hope you will take a moment, while you are listening to this podcast, and take a screenshot of it and post it on Instagram Stories or other social media. And if you tag me @BobbiRebell1, that's B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L, and then the number one, you will be entered into our monthly giveaways. You can win books by our authors that are on the podcast, as well as merch from our new Grownup Gear store. You can see the merch, by the way, right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. You'll see it says shop grownup gear.

Bobbi Rebell: Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of the Financial Grownup podcast. So grateful for Claire Wasserman for helping us all learn to get paid like financial grownups. Bye, everyone.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Jessica Zweig leads the thriving personal branding business: Simply Be. But the author of the new book "Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself” only got to this point in her life because she was able to exit a toxic business relationship that brought her personally and financially to rock bottom. Plus she shares an everyday money tip that will help us reach our goals during the pandemic, no matter what obstacles we are facing. 

Jessica’s Money Story:

My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had 100,000 local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship." And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth. It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch.

Jessica’s Money Lesson:

Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page.

Jessica’s Money Tip:

So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Bobbi’s Take:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships, and used the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. - This past week the dating app Bumble went public. Its founder,  Whitney Wolfe Herd started Bumble in 2014..  after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder, where she was a co-founder- after a breakup with another co-founder. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and is worth over a billion dollars. 

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

So many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic- in part because it feels like no one is watching. I mean after all. We can and do literally work in our pajamas. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time. Get an accountability partner. Get someone who will be committed to you- and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren’t doing that- break up fast and find another accountability partner. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy, but this more quiet time will come to an end, and the opportunity to get to your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste. 

Get your copy of Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself.

Follow Jessica!

• Twitter - @jessica_zweig

• Instagram - @jessicazweig

• Jessica’s website - www.jessicazweig.com

• Facebook - Jessica Zweig

• LinkedIn - Jessica Zweig

Follow Bobbi!

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Merch - grownupgear.com

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys, are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy t-shirts and we need to give ourselves an upgraded but still super comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

Bobbi Rebell: I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick me ups to to let them know it's all good and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost grownup friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales follow us on Instagram at our new handle at @GrownupGear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear you help support this free podcast.

Bobbi Rebell: The debt and the brokeness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would've if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We've got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Financial Grownup Podcast. We share money stories here that had big impacts on our guests lives and of course then they share with us the lessons from them. I'm your host Bobbi Rebell, Journalist, Certified Financial Planner and author of the book How To Be a Financial Grownup. If you're new here welcome. I'm so glad you found us.

Bobbi Rebell: So that clip that you heard at the top of the show was from author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig. Jessica has a new book out called Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. I have to say I love that title. The thing about Jessica is that if you don't know her you would never know all the things that she has had to overcome to well be where she is now that included a toxic business relationship that lasted for seven years. The breakup left her with nothing hitting rock bottom at age 33, even having to ask her parents for money just to pay her phone bill. Just when we think we will be hitting our grownup stride you never know what's going to hit us. There is a lot to learn from this remarkable woman and she does not hold back in this interview. Here is Jessica Zweig.

Bobbi Rebell: Jessica Zweig, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me Bobbi. I'm pumped to be here.

Bobbi Rebell: Well, I am pumped to have you here. Your book Be, I'm holding it up by the way, Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself is about to come out and it's your first book. Congratulations.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much. You know how much goes into it so thank you for saying that.

Bobbi Rebell: I really enjoyed learning so much about you and what you teach people in the book. What's interesting is you come across as having it all together which you do now I'm going to say but it wasn't always the case. You brought with us a money story that is sadly something many of us can relate to but often don't know what to do with, I should say that often don't know what to do about, and that is finding ourselves in toxic relationships personally and in business in work environments. Tell us your money story Jessica.

Jessica Zweig: My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had a hundred thousand local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship."

Jessica Zweig: And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth.

Jessica Zweig: It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch. Bobbi Rebell: When you look back were there red flags that you should have spotted in the relationship, in the business in terms of the skills that you both brought?

Jessica Zweig: From day one. I mean, there were massive red flags. I think I realized three months in just how different we were but we were young and we were so naive and we both really loved this business. This magazine Cheeky was our baby. And so I didn't want to give it up and she didn't want to give it up and at the core there was a magic connection with us. We wouldn't have created what we created if there wasn't that synergistic spark. And we both loved each other to a degree which was what made it so difficult.

Jessica Zweig: But there were red flags and it was honestly one of the most toxic relationships of my life. I mean, we were together for seven years and we were water and vinegar. We were just totally different people. And I'm not saying I was better or she was worse, we were just different. I've come to so much peace and love and honestly forgiveness for myself first in the way that I showed up in that relationship as much as her and how she showed up in the relationship which I think has really been a huge key to me soaring in the last few years because I really did my own work.

Jessica Zweig: I think it's so easy to point fingers at people when they burn us or they hurt us or they come after us. There's that expression when you point one finger at someone, I mean do it, you're pointing three back at yourself. So you really do have to look at yourself in any sort of situation but when it comes to money it's especially loaded and I could still be angry, I could still be bitter, I could still be resentful. I don't feel any of those feelings. And it was the greatest learning lesson of my life. I applied all of those mistakes, all of those failures to simply be and simply be is so successful and it wouldn't have been unless I had that seven year chapter and run of making all of those mistakes.

Jessica Zweig: So, I think that everything happens for a reason and I feel like the debt and the brokenness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would have if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. So, everything happens for a reason and divine order. It's happening for you not to you even though it can really feel the opposite in the moment. I wouldn't be who I am without that business and that failure.

Bobbi Rebell: Can you me a specific example of something that happened that highlighted your differences? It doesn't have to be your biggest fight or something but something especially money related that you just never agreed on.

Jessica Zweig:I think we were both pretty irresponsible with the way we spent the business's money. I really wanted to grow it and scale it and exit. I wanted to be that type of entrepreneur and she wanted it to be a more lifestyle business. If you're going to go into business with anyone whether it's a business partner or someone on your team or your leadership team to really understand those nuances and get everyone on the same page. Because it sets the foundation for the type of business and the rate in which you want to grow and how you want to operate and who you want to do business with so, so much. And we just didn't have the skills. We were so young. We didn't have the tools to talk about money and business at that level. We were green as grass. So, of course it netted out the way that we netted out. And we also were really done when we opened up our credit cards. She was the personal guarantor on the credit cards. It was just mistake, after mistake, after mistake.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. I love that you're talking about the fact that it is so hard to talk about money and it sounds like you guys didn't have a lot of talks about money and how you were going to structure your firm and how you were going to fund it before you started it. What is the lesson for our listeners as we put it all in context?

Jessica Zweig: Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken and I think actually way, way up and make the right decision to partner with the right people in the first place. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page. And yet money makes people funny no matter what and so you really have to recognize that in yourself and in the others and bring as much consciousness and integrity to those kinds of negotiations, conversations, whatnot.

Bobbi Rebell: I could talk to you forever about this but I want to get your everyday money tip because it's something that I am already implementing for 2021 and that is having accountability, having an accountability partner. Talk about that.

Jessica Zweig: Yeah. So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Jessica Zweig: And so, I brought in my husband who is a financial advisor, as well as you are. And his business had kind of slowed down, he couldn't go out and network, we were quarantining. And he's like, "Jess, I'll help you with the PPP." He took one look at my finance team and was like, "Dude, I can do this better." And so I fired my finance team and I hired my husband. And my husband and I have always obviously been partners and accountable to each other because we're married but bringing him into my business...

Jessica Zweig: He's now my CFO, he helps me run the shop, saving money, ensuring that our P and L's are always balanced, making sure we're net profitable. Having someone that I trust, obviously I trust no one more than my own husband but he has really allowed me to fly as the CEO because I know that he's got things covered. And we operate like a legit finance CFO to CEO. We take weekly meetings. He has an agenda. We run through every money in money out, hiring, investments, savings. We don't have any debt in our business. It's a really powerful person, obviously it's my own husband. But if you can have someone to pulse check you, to support you, to believe in you, to honestly be able to see the forest from the trees more than you can in your own project or business or money endeavor that is so key.

Jessica Zweig: And then another thing that I have done that has really allowed me to get out of debt and save money and feel really, really peaceful and abundant and my husband has helped me with this is we've set up an account. I call it my island account and it's a bank account we can only put money in. And if I needed to take money out I'd have to drive all the way across town in the worst hours, whatever. It's my island account. I can only send money to it, it can only grow. And I'm stacking my cheddar as my accountant once told me and my husband helps me ensure that money is being sent to that account every single month and that we're totally able to send that level of money over to that account and that's really grown our savings. My husband and I sleep well at night because of it.

Jessica Zweig: And so those are the key hacks that having my husband and having that account has changed honestly my financial wellbeing more than my finances but more of my financial wellbeing, which I think is key to vibrating at that level of abundance and attracting more.

Bobbi Rebell: That's such great advice. There's also a lot more great advice and I'm picking up your book now even though I know we're on audio and your book, okay I'm going to read the title Be, with a period, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. And I love the yellow cover. Yellow became one of your themes in the book so it transcends so much about you and your sunny personality. Tell us briefly about the book.

Jessica Zweig: So the book is a personal branding book. It's going to walk you through my trademark methodology of how to build your platform, the platform of you. Whether you work for yourself, or you work for someone else, or you want to one day work for yourself, having an understanding of what makes you you is an invaluable asset that you can take with you no matter what your job title is. That's number one. It's going to teach you tactically step-by-step how to do that from messaging, to strategy, to content, to social media, to PR.

Jessica Zweig: However, it is a personal empowerment book in fact disguised as a business book. Because I think at the core most people feel afraid to do that and to put themselves out there. And I say that my book is the permission slip and the reminder that you are worthy to be seen and to shine and to have everything you ever want. And it's my own journey in fact as well and my uncovering that truth for myself. And so, I'm right along with you throughout the whole book and you're going to take away so much tactical knowledge but at the end of the day I hope it inspires people to stop playing small and stop apologizing for their authentic amazingness. And that's what my book Be is about.

Bobbi Rebell: One of the recommendations in the book is to keep your social media and all of your public identifying names, et cetera, very consistent. So let's end with you telling us where people can find you on all of the social media because I know you keep it easy.

Jessica Zweig: I walk the talk as I say I drink my own Kool-Aid. So yes I am at Jessica Zweig on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, jessicazweig.com. You can also go to simplybeagency.com which is my company's website and find me. I'm really, really, really easy to find. I'm out there. So please come and say hi.

Bobbi Rebell: Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me. This was amazing.

Bobbi Rebell: Here we go my friends Financial Grownup tip number one, some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships like Jessica, and like Jessica they use the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. This past week the dating app Bumble went public and its founder Whitney Wolfe-Herd started Bumble in 2014 after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder where she was a co-founder after a breakup with another co-founder. And she's talked about it a lot, it was a toxic relationship for sure. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and worth over a billion dollars. What a great story.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup tip number two, so many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic in part because it feels like no one's watching. I mean, after all we can and do literally work in our pajamas, certainly the off-camera part. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time, get an accountability partner like Jessica. Get someone who will be committed to you and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren't doing that well break up fast and find another accountability partner who's a better fit. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy but this more quiet time will come to an end and the opportunity to get your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste.

Bobbi Rebell: One way to get motivated, get out of those PJ's. Realistically, I know we aren't getting dressed up but have some fun with your pandemic wardrobe. That's what I know I needed when I came up with a concept for Grownup Gear it is all about celebrating wherever we are in our journey to being grown ups which never really ends let's be honest. Check out the designs on my website, bobbirebell.com. Click on shop or just go directly to grownupgear.com. And please be in touch. DM me what you want more of on this podcast. I love your feedback. I put discount codes for Grownup Gear on my Instagram, which by the way is Bobbi Rebell one. And we did just start a Grownup Gear Instagram. We don't have a lot of followers so please come check it out. That's at @GrownupGear on Instagram.

Bobbi Rebell: So big thanks to Jessica Zweig, author of Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing You Self-Worth and Your Net Worth By Simply Being Yourself. Everyone check out the book and thanks again to Jessica for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

When Jessica Goodman landed a book deal, and later a TV deal for her debut novel “They Wish They Were us” many people though she would go full time on her side-hustle. But Goodman says that was never the plan, and explains why and how she blends the finances and demands of her two dream jobs.

In Jessica’s Money Story she shares:

-How she started writing her e first book, “They Wish They Were Us.”after having the idea for years.

-How she researched what is involved in selling a book to a publisher, including getting an agent

-How she kept her employer, Cosmopolitan Magazine informed and supportive of her book writing side hustle

-How an advance works for an author, including the tax implications

-What she wishes she knew about being an author and how much they are paid before she wrote and sold the book

-How she was able to adapt her schedule to both her full time job at Cosmopolitan Magazine, and writing books

-What you need to know about how a full time job works compared to being a self-employed author, including quarterly taxes

-When you should think about bringing in an accountant.

In Jessica’s Money Lesson you will learn:

-Why and how you should re-evaluate the way you think about money

-The best strategies to manage money when you are paid inconsistently in chunks

-How she and her partner adapted their spending during the pandemic

-How to resist it when people who care about you give you bad financial advice

Jessica’s Money Tip:

-Even if you live in a small space it can pay to buy in bulk during quarantine (and maybe after!)

-Think of non-traditional items that you would not have used as much at home- like buying wine by the case

-Tips about ordering groceries online including having the heaviest items delivered

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. If you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Get a system going and understand that you might miss out on things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Episode Links:

• Jessica’s website - https://www.goodmanjessica.com/

• Buy They Wish They Were Us

• Pre-Order They’ll Never Catch Us

Follow Jessica!

• Instagram - @jessicagoodman

• Twitter - @jessgood

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

  
  Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Full transcript of show:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees. Much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Jessica Goodman:

When I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. You publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey friends, do you have a passion project or a side hustle? One you dream of doing full time one day and maybe getting to ditch that day job? Well, Cosmopolitan's Jessica Goodman had a passion project that she was quietly working on for years. And that was to be an author. Her debut novel, a murder mystery set in an elite private school called They Wish They Were Us ended up being such a hit that it is now being made into a TV series, starring Halsey and Euphoria's Sydney Sweeney. Fast-forward and Jessica has now scored a book for a second novel that is already coming out this summer. So all systems go on the dream career, right? Well, not so fast. To the surprise of quite a few people in her life, rather than ditch, she doubled down, staying on a Cosmopolitan magazine where she is currently the op-ed editor.

Bobbi Rebell:

In our interview, Jessica shares why she is sticking with the day job, goes through exactly how she manages her time and gets candid about what she wishes she knew about before diving into the book business, including, well, a lot of tech stuff. For those of you new to the Financial Grownup Podcast, welcome. I'm so glad that you are here. We talk with financial grownups here about money stories that impacted their lives and the lessons learned from those stories. We also ask them to bring along an everyday money tip that we can put to work right away. Spoiler alert. Jessica's has to do with how she and her partner buy their wine. So stay tuned for her tip on that. And with that, let's get to this week's interview. Here is Cosmo op-ed editor and author of They Wish They Were Us, Jessica Goodman.

Bobbi Rebell:

Jessica Goodman, I'm so excited to finally have you on the show. You are definitely a financial grownup. Welcome.

Jessica Goodman:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

And happy 2021, a year when your second, soon to be bestseller is going to be released. Before we get into your money story, tell us a little bit about each of your books just briefly.

Jessica Goodman:

So my first book, They Wish They Were Us came out in August and it is a young adult thriller that follows a high school senior, Jill Newman, who is in a very exclusive society within her Long Island prep school. And at the beginning of the book, she is reflecting on the fact that her best friend died when she was a freshman and she was also part of this society. And soon after the book begins, she starts getting text messages that say that her best friend Shayla didn't die the way that everybody thinks she did. And so what follows is kind of a whodunit, murder mystery set in this very exclusive prep school. And it's really an exploration of privilege and friendship and peer pressure. And I kind of like to say that it's like Gossip Girl meets Pretty Little Liars, meets A Secret History. It's really fun. And it's being adapted into a TV series, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey. So if those people are on your brain, I think you might enjoy.

Jessica Goodman:

And then I also have a new book coming out this summer. It's called, They'll Never Catch Us. It's currently available for pre-order wherever books are sold. And it is also a young adult thriller about two super competitive sisters who run cross country. And they're both trying to be the best on their team and in the state. And they threaten to kind of lose the number one and two spots when a new girl comes to town. And then soon after she arrives, she also disappears. And everybody in the town begins to suspect that the sisters had something to do with it. So that's where my brain has been for the past couple of months, which is really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is really exciting. What's amazing to me, and I think our listeners will really enjoy hearing about this is while you are doing this, this is actually really a side hustle to your primary job. You have been in a number of different positions at Cosmopolitan magazine. You're currently the op-ed editor. Did I get that right?

Jessica Goodman:

You did. And I'm very impressed that you didn't trip up over the ed editor because I always do when I say it out loud and I have to be like, oh wait, no, this is my job.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is your job now, you are still working there with one book out, another one on the way. So for your money story, I've asked you to kind of talk about how that happened, especially the money-related decisions that you had to make along the way to make this happen. Having a very full-time job at Cosmo. And then on the side, writing this book. It was a lot of choices you had to make I would say. Tell us your money story.

Jessica Goodman:

Definitely. Yeah, so many choices along the way. When I started writing the first book, They Wish They Were Us. And I really started writing it in earnest after having kind of dabbled with it for many years. In earnest, I started working on it in like 2015, 2016. I would say. I didn't get to the point where I thought I could actually sell it and be a professional author until maybe like 2018. And that's when I got connected with my agent and we started working towards being able to sell it. But I did a lot of research into how one becomes an author. I was literally Googling like, how do you publish a book? Like, how do you find an agent? Like what is a book advance? Like all of these kinds of really basic questions that I just had no idea what it was all about.

Jessica Goodman:

And I basically found out that it's really, really, really difficult to publish and sell a book. And that be your sole income or your sole career, like one book basically. And so it was never really an option for me to quit my ... Like I never thought about quitting my jobs in journalism while I was trying to sell the book. So it was always just like, how can I make both of these dreams come true at the same time? And so we sold the book, They Wish They Were Us, in the fall of 2018. And we got an advance, which is what they call the income that you make from selling your book. And publishers usually split it up into a few big chunks. For mine, it was like, I got a chunk of money when I signed the contract, a chunk of money when I turned in the book and then a chunk of money when the book came out. And when, at least when I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. It's like you publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case. And it's certainly like a fantastic thing to have of course, but it's not the kind of financial gains that I originally thought it would be. And I think that a lot of people think about when they think of like someone getting a book advance. Like I said, it was always like a no-brainer that I would keep my job, but I really had to learn how to prioritize both jobs to be able to do them well. So my schedule when I'm being my best self is that I write in the morning before work, usually from seven to nine. And then I do my job from ten to whenever. And then I write on the weekends as well. It's certainly hard at some points, especially at my job at Cosmo, I cover the news, especially like elections and special elections and anything relating to, like having to do with politics. So obviously this past year was hard to balance everything.

Bobbi Rebell:

Were you open with your bosses about these efforts, or was it something you kept private?

Jessica Goodman:

When the book deal actually happened, I went in and told my boss, hey, I just want to give you a heads up that like this happened and it's not going to affect the work that I do here. Like, I really wanted to make sure that they knew that I wasn't about to quit basically, that I was just like, this is just something that I'm doing for myself and my personal dreams. But like, it's not going to affect my work or my productivity here. And I just wanted to give you like a courtesy heads up basically. And everybody was really supportive and they have been really supportive of the book. And so it's been lovely honestly, but I definitely have heard some horror stories at other companies. But I think when you work in a field that's somewhat like adjacent to whatever your side hustle is, it does make it a little bit easier for people to understand why you might be doing something or how it won't interfere with your responsibilities.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you wish you knew in terms of the book business and the financial aspects of it? What do you wish you knew ahead of time? You mentioned that you get the bulk payments and you kind of had this idea as a child that authors become millionaires.

Jessica Goodman:

Yeah, I think something that I definitely wish that I knew was like taxes. Like I think if you're like me and you've really only had a job that you get a salary and benefits from your employer, it's really difficult to self-manage money that comes in chunks, whether you're a freelance writer or you're your own boss and you're not part of like a company. I think it's really difficult to know things like, oh, I have to pay quarterly taxes on this income. Or like, oh, I don't know how much money to put aside from this advanced check that I got, because that advance doesn't reflect the taxes I need to pay on it. So I ended up working with an accountant because I had no idea how to navigate this on my own. And I wanted to make sure that I was doing everything by the book.

Jessica Goodman:

And I wasn't going to get dinged at the end of the fiscal year because I have heard horror stories of people getting, like a $100,000 of their advance, spending it, and then not realizing that they needed to pay however many tens of thousands of dollars of taxes on that. And like, oh my God, what a nightmare. Or even realizing that I had to pay quarterly taxes on like freelance income was the real shock to me. So I got an accountant kind of like late in the game, I would say. And I wish I had got one, like even before the first check came in to like really help me navigate that.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson for our listeners, from this story? What's your advice to people thinking about whether it's writing a novel or any kind of side hustle where they're going to have to hold on to their job?

Jessica Goodman:

I think for me, it was really reevaluating the way that I thought about money. Like I think after having been in jobs where like I got a salary check every other week. That was like, okay, like I know what my monthly expenses are. I know how much my rent is. I know how much my utilities are. Like, I know how much I spend on groceries. Like all that stuff that they tell you. And I knew how to manage that money. Like I knew how much I might be able to save, how much I would need to pay my credit card bill, like all this stuff. But when you get these like big chunks of money, or even just smaller chunks of money from like freelance gigs or whatever, I think it can feel really tempting to just kind of spend it immediately. Even if you're the type of person who is really invested in saving and planning for your future, I think it's hard to conceptualize like how much money you might need for stuff. And especially this year, when I wasn't interested in spending a lot of money at all, based on the kind of times we're in, I splurged on a few things and those things I was thinking about them before we hopped on the call. Those are the things that I really splurged on this year where I turned 30 and I bought myself $80 worth of oysters that were shipped from Cape Cod and an oyster shucker. And that's how I spent my 30th birthday with my partner. We shucked like 50 oysters and save the additional, however many for the next day. And it was such a treat and it was so much fun and something that I'll remember forever. And I bought myself a $90 tie dyed sweatsuit because I am a millennial and on Instagram and it just looked really cozy. And those were like my two big splurges of the year.

Jessica Goodman:

And I know a lot of people, when they get like a book advancer or kind of achieve these really big milestones, they're like, I'm going to buy myself a really expensive piece of jewelry or a fancy handbag, or even like house or whatever. And I mean, I think all of those things are fantastic, but for me, the lesson for me, the lesson here was like, all right, I don't really have anything that I'm ready to splurge on that big right now. I really want to like, save all of this money as much as I can. And those are the things I'm going to splurge on, like oysters and a tie dyed sweatsuit. And knowing that like my big splurge might come later. Like I am saving up to buy a house with my partner. And I think that like my book advance will of course go towards that.

Jessica Goodman:

But realizing that like, I didn't need to spend it all right away I think was a huge revelation, especially because so many people were like, what are you going to treat yourself to? Like your book just came out, like, what are you going to do to mark the occasion? And I didn't really do that much because it just didn't feel right for me. Those were my splurges.

Bobbi Rebell:

I love it. I love the idea of oysters. So tell us your everyday money tip.

Jessica Goodman:

Oh yes. Okay. So this is one that I really got to be obsessed with during the pandemic. Like I am not the type of person that should or would traditionally buy in bulk. Like I live with one other person. We live in a one bedroom apartment. It's very small. We don't have a lot of storage space, but this year I became the kind of person that buys in bulk. Obviously, so many people are doing this during the pandemic, but I don't think I really realized how much you actually save when you buy in bulk and you know what you're going to use in those bulk quantities. And I think the pandemic has really shown people like what they actually use and what is actually important to them. And so for us, like there were a few things that really changed the way I thought about this. One was I started doing like subscribe and save Amazon paper towels and toilet paper. And actually I had done this pre run out of toilet paper in like March moment. So I pat myself on the back for knowing that would be a thing.

Jessica Goodman:

But I think I did the math recently. And it was like if I were to buy a few rolls every time I went to the grocery store, I would spend nearly twice the amount that I do just doing subscribe and save and having them shipped directly to my house. And even though they just sit in boxes in like a corner of our apartment. Because again, small one bedroom apartment, I think it's like totally worth it for us. And the other way that I found this to be really useful was we started buying our wine in cases, which a year ago I would have said like, are you okay? Like what's going on here?

Jessica Goodman:

But my local wine shop, they started offering a 15% discount if you bought a case of wine. And so we basically did the math and we were like, well, we'd be losing money if we didn't do this. And we don't go through them that quickly. I mean, it's no brainer how much money you save. We started looking for ways that you could buy in bulk and save like that. Like the fancy coffee shop near us. If you buy beans in bulk, it's like the same thing. And all these companies now do like subscribe and save membership things, like there's so many coffee ones where like every week they'll send you a bag of beans or whatever. And I think like looking for those has really been super helpful for us and certainly cut down on how we spend.

Jessica Goodman:

The other thing about like this buying in bulk grocery shopping thing is I heard this tip from Carla Lalli Music who used to work at Bon Appetit and now is she's like a chef home cook person on Instagram and has like a fantastic cookbook. But her big tip was always like, if you're ordering groceries, like order all the heavy stuff that's going to be delivered to your apartment. So you don't have to carry stuff, especially in an apartment. And that has been so helpful to me too, where it's like, every time I do like a big shop online or Instacart or Whole Foods or whatever, I get like 10 cans of beans, because like, I don't want to carry that. Or like four jugs of olive oil or like four twelve packs of seltzer because yes, you're buying in bulk. And sometimes you can get discounts that way, but also like who wants to carry that stuff home?

Bobbi Rebell:

Definitely good to always make your life easier. Especially if you are paying those fees to have it delivered. You want to get the most out of that delivery fee. Jessica, thank you so much for being with us, tell us where people can find out more about you. We know your books are available everywhere. We don't know when is the TV series coming.

Jessica Goodman:

TBD on the TV series, but you can stay up to date with all of that info on my Instagram, which is @JessicaGoodman or Twitter @JessGood. And I also have a website goodmanjessica.com. Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. My friends let's do this. Financial Grownup tip number one, Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. And by the way, if you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.Financial Grownup tip number two, get a system going and understand that you might miss things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Bobbi Rebell:

I had so much fun talking with Jessica and her book was really, really a page turner. As I mentioned, it is a murder mystery. And for the record, I really was totally fooled. I didn't see the twists and turns coming. One thing that I've really loved during our forced stayed home time during this pandemic has been catching up on reading fiction and really getting lost in books. We're going to be giving away a few signed copies of Jessica's book to that end so please make sure you are on the Grownup list ASAP so you don't miss that. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you can sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell:

Now while you are there, please check out my big project that I have been working on. I am so excited to see what you guys think. It is the new Grownup Gear Shop. It's a passion project of mine, and I hope you guys will all support it. Podcasts listeners can get 10% off if you use the code “Jessica” within one week of this episode dropping. So just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you'll see the word shop, click on there. Check it out. I hope you guys like it. Big thanks to author Jessica Goodman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Author Ron Lieber returns to the Financial Grownup podcast to preview his new book "The Price You Pay for College”and share tips on the best ways to control college costs, including debunking some big myths about why college is so expensive and who gets how much aid, and why. 

Tip #1:

There is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called Merit Aid. Rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can. Figure out whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes. You have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Tip #2

You can appeal the financial aid package you receive from these colleges. The need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. You may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need-based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid. That's going to give you the best chance of success.

Tip #3

Save the “right” way. There's this idea out there that you need to make a choice between saving for your retirement and saving for college for your kids. You can do both. Borrowing for college may not be for some families. This idea also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time. The financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Tip #4

You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children. We do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. You don't get, make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old. So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Tip #5

What we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, our spouses, or even our exes. We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt. The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us. We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Full Transcript of Episode:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works.

Bobbi Rebell:

You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit, split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com. Financial grownup guide, five things you can control about the price you pay for college with author Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of, 'How To Be a Financial Grownup.' But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hello, my friends, for all our talk about budgeting, spending, penny pinching in some cases, looking at the prices of everything we buy. Most of us, our parents, our children, friends, we buy one really big ticket item that we shop for without actually getting to see the real price that we will pay. I am of course, talking about college. And while yes, we can see the full retail price on many university's websites, the majority of us actually, aren't going to pay that price.

Bobbi Rebell:

In fact, I learned in Ron Lieber's new book, "The Price You Pay for College" that only 11% pay that price. So then the question is how much of a discount can we get, and how is that decided? Welcome everyone here on the Financial Grownup podcast, we talk about money issues that matter to us as we move through adulthood and college certainly qualifies.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber, the New York Times Your Money Columnist, who was first on the podcast in 2018, talking about how he got into school is now back to give us a peek at his very grownup book, "The Price You Pay for College," an entirely new roadmap for the biggest financial decision your family will ever make. Yeah, that's the truth. Like so much of our lives these days, there are lot of things that we can't control. So I asked Ron to tell us what we can control, and he did a little myth-busting along the way. Here is Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber welcome back to the podcast and congratulations on your new book, "The Price You Pay for College."

Ron Lieber:
It's great to be back. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

What inspired this book before we get into your tips about the things that we can control about the price that we all pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, this book is both personal and professional. It's personal because, I have a 15 year-old ninth grader and a five-year-old kindergartener. I live in New York city with extremely high costs and it's a two journalist household. So we're not exactly rolling at it. So this is going to be hard for our daughters to have the same kinds of choices that my wife and I had albeit for me with a whole bunch of need-based financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

So it's personal, but it's also professional because readers kept getting in touch and expressing marvel, but also alarm at the fact that the rack rate for the most expensive colleges in the country had passed $300,000 for four years and even the flagship state universities.

Ron Lieber:

Many of them are now more than a hundred grand for four years. So you've got a $200,000 gap between them and these readers were saying to me, "Hey, we live in the era of big data, where's the big dataset that explains why NYU is $200,000 better than SUNY Binghamton." I did not know and it felt like a new question to me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well you answer a lot of the questions in the book? And unfortunately there is a lot about this process that we simply cannot control, but I want to focus for our grownup audience on the things that we can control. And we've got a list of a few things we're going to go through. What is the first one? What can we control when it comes to the price we pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, you can control what you know, right? You can learn how the system works. One of the things that continues to amaze me is the number of sophisticated people who are extremely successful in their own chosen fields of employment who show up in my inbox or in my text messages in March or April of their child's senior year in high school.

Ron Lieber:

And they have no idea what has hit them. They have no idea that there is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called merit aid. And that rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can.

Bobbi Rebell:

And that's kind of one of the reasons why college has gotten so expensive in fact, is that it's become the sort of vicious cycle.

Ron Lieber:

One of the things that's made it also complicated for the people who run these schools, it's not just the pricing wars going on in the background, although that certainly helps drive down revenue and the net tuition revenue per student. But one of the things that we can't control as individuals and the schools have a lot of trouble controlling, is that people good ones, well trained people cost money, right?

Ron Lieber:

Professors spend, a minimum of five years in graduate training and Economics 101 suggests that, people who need to spend that long learning and training ought to be compensated at an above average rate. There are also more administrators than there used to be for every 1000 undergraduates. But that's mostly because we like it that way, right?

Ron Lieber:

We want disabled kids to have access. We want kids with mental health issues to have access. We want there to be a good counseling center on all of that. So, we get the administrators, we demand in the marketplace. But it is not cheap to run these places and if we made them more efficient, we might not like the result.

Bobbi Rebell:

So for parents that want merit aid, how can we control merit aid and how much we can get for our child or for kids going to college, if you're a teenager listening to this?

Ron Lieber:

Well, the first thing you have to be able to figure out is whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes.

Ron Lieber:

I think of schools like, Oberlin or Connecticut College, relatively Tony Brand’s private schools. A lot of fancy kids go there. They don't really want to talk about this. They're ashamed that they've got to, get in there and slug it out in the marketplace.

Ron Lieber:

And so you have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts.

Bobbi Rebell:

Another thing I was shocked about that you talk about in your book that people can control is if they do get a financial aid package, they can appeal it.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. There are a lot of people who don't know that this is the case as well. And it gets a little messy, right? Because the need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. But the merit aid awards come from admissions. So depending on which awards you have, you may need to file your appeal to different people.

Ron Lieber:

And then when you do, you may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need- based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

That's going to give you the best chance of success. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's get into other things that people can control. There's a lot of myths about how to save, where to save and how much to save to get the best opportunity in terms of support from the college. What should people be doing? What can they control there?

Ron Lieber:

Well, let's go through a couple of the maxims here that are repeated as truths in financial planning and in personal finance, journalism, by people who ought to know better that are not actually true. First of all, there's this idea out there that if you need to make a choice between saving for retirement and saving for college, you should save for retirement because you can't borrow for retirement. That implies a couple of things.

Ron Lieber:

First of all, that borrowing for college is necessarily and always a good idea, and it may not be for some families. But it also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home.

Ron Lieber:

So, I hate things that are presented as maxims. They're actually based in factual inaccuracies. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time.

Ron Lieber:

So there's a whole bunch of problems with this. I mean, first of all, the financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. And let me also say this, right?

Ron Lieber:

I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Bobbi Rebell:

And speaking of your kids, that's also something you can control. You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. Look, I mean, we do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. That's not how it works when this thing that they are chasing costs today, as much as $325,000 for University of Chicago at the rack rate, right? You don't get to make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old.

Ron Lieber:

So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Bobbi Rebell:

And the final thing I want to talk about is our own emotions. There's the cliche, "Keeping up with the Joneses" and everyone says, "Oh, I just want what's best for my child." But people get pretty emotional. This for many parents, it's a reflection on, it's almost like, did they get an A+ in parenting, depending on where their child goes to school. They want that sticker on the car, right?

Ron Lieber:

I am so glad you bring this up. Obviously the students have a tendency to be emotional. They're getting ready to leave home, they feel like it's competitive. They want to be able to hold their head up in the community. They want what they want and that's normal for adolescents.

Ron Lieber:

But what we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, with our spouses if we have one, with our exes, if we have some of those about the feelings that all of this invokes and evokes, right? We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt, right? The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us.

Ron Lieber:

And so therefore we should borrow $150,000 per kid, right? We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Bobbi Rebell:

Very interesting. And it's true in schools, one of the myths that you dispel in the book is that schools, they have all these things you joke about the lazy river and the rock climbing wall. I mean, that is something that is eye candy for students. That's not the reason that schools are so expensive by the way.

Ron Lieber:

No, I mean, these are really fun things to go gawk at and talk about and old school types will snicker and think that everything's gone to rot. But I don't blame the schools for this. I mean, these 18 year olds want to continue to live in the manner to which they become accustomed.

Ron Lieber:

And all of a sudden in a generation we've gone from, having a VCR in your room and a private phone line, and your own camcorder, being a luxury to everybody walking around with this little rectangle that like does all of those things and then some, right?

Ron Lieber:

We just have a way higher standard of living that we used to. And so it doesn't surprise me that a bunch of institutions would want to raise the quality of the lived experience for their undergraduates. I would argue that this is market driven. It's not driven by the institutions and it doesn't actually cost a ton. Again, it's the people who cost money at the schools, not the amenities.

Bobbi Rebell:

Right. And that's a big, big myth that you bust in the book. I loved your book. I hope lots of people pick it up because it is eye-opening about so many things that I thought were true that are not true like that last example. Ron, where can people be in touch with you?

Ron Lieber:

Yeah, I am itching to get back out on the road again, but it's probably not going to happen until November at the earliest. So I will be all over the internet. The best way to catch up with me is to sign up for my newsletter, which I promise I don't send out all that often. But if you go to ronlieber.com and just drop your first name and your email address in there, you can keep up with me and I will continue to send notes and notices about where I will be appearing via zoom. And I'm on all the usual social channels @RonLieber.

Bobbi Rebell:
So wonderful. Thank you so much.

Ron Lieber:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay my friends. I was pretty surprised about how little at a relative basis, all those luxuries amenities costs, but I guess overall, it is a good thing that the money is going in large part to educators. Right? I would love to hear about your experiences with paying for college. You can DM me at @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, @BobbiRebell on Twitter, and please join the grownup list.

Bobbi Rebell:

We share recommendations of books, podcasts, and other fun things to level up your grownup life, plus we are doing giveaways of books from the authors on the show and exclusive financial grownup merchandise. Just go to my website, Bobbirebell.com to sign up. Big thanks to, "The Price You Pay for College" author, Ron Lieber for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Author Erica Keswin returns to the Financial Grownup podcast to discuss her new book Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines Into Workplace Magic. Erica shares specific, free and low cost ways to use rituals to improve productivity, increase a sense of safety and belonging, as well as purpose both for work and for life.

Tip #1:

Begin and end with intention. Beginnings and endings are prime rituals real estate. So be aware of how you start and end your day, and do something that makes you feel most like you.

Tip #2:

Take breaks. We need to build in rituals to actually get up and move.

Tip #3:

Make sure that you're staying connected. We are all feeling isolated and lonely and we're really wired for connection. This may look like scheduling a phone call with a friend. We can build that ritual in once a week or once a month for us to stay connected.

Tip #4:

Give back. If there's ever a time to building a ritual around gratitude, it's 2021. I do believe it's something that many of us started in 2020 that we need to really focus on. There's a lot of data around the impact of gratitude on performance and how we feel in general.

Tip #5:

Build in some rituals to have fun. These days can feel long and heavy and just because it's 2021, that doesn’t mean the pandemic went away. So we need to build in some time for fun, some time for silliness and not feel guilty about it.

Get Erica’s new book, Rituals Roadmap, here

Get all of Erica’s books here

Full Show Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell :

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money, and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy.

Bobbi Rebell :

So, if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable, and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power. I know, I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have. Go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup Guide. Five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021 with author Erica Keswin. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Okay, my friends, if ever there was a time we really need to find ways to cope with chaos, total chaos, things we never thought could possibly happen, it is now. And so the timing could not be better to bring back my friend, Erica Keswin to give us some really powerful ways to use rituals, to help get a fresh start and really a better sense of control as we move into 2021, which so far has not been as boring as many of us had hoped it would be.

Bobbi Rebell :

Here in the Financial Grownup podcast we have two formats, one in which we share money stories and the lessons from those stories, but sometimes we like to mix things up. And we have something called Financial Grownup Guides, which focus on tips and strategies for you to live your best financial grownup life. And as Erica shared with me the details of her latest book, it was perfect for that. And even more so, given the events of early 2021.

Bobbi Rebell :

Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines Into Workplace Magic, got me thinking about the rituals I already have and brainstorming new ones to try out. And spoiler alert, not just for the workplace. Now, before I roll the interview, I also to invite everyone to join the Grownup List. We have amazing giveaways coming, including free books from our financial grownup authors. We're also building out some grownup merch, but it's not yet available for sale. You can only get it if you were on the Grownup List and win. Go to my website, bobbirebell.com to get on the List for free. We'll also leave a link in the show notes, and when you get the next newsletter, you will learn how to win the prizes.

Bobbi Rebell :

Speaking of show notes, don't feel you need to take notes on all of the great Intel Erica is going to share. We'll have it all for you in those show notes, which are available under the financial grownup dropdown again, on my website. Okay. I'm really excited for you guys to hear the interview here is Erica Keswin giving us some highlights of Rituals Roadmap. Erica, thanks for coming back to the Financial Grownup Podcast.

Erica Keswin :
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell :

Big congratulations on your next bestseller, Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines into Workplace Magic. You're going to be giving us five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021. But before we get there, first of all, tell us about the book a little bit. And then I'm going to ask you a couple of quick questions.

Erica Keswin :

Sure. I had a book in 2018 as you know because it was on your show called Bring Your Human to Work. And one of the things I realized after it came out that rituals are a tool to create a more human workplace, and to feel more connected. And I know we'll get into some of that. We can use rituals at home. We can use them at work. Right now, working home are pretty much the same thing, so they're even more important. But rituals are very accessible and there's something that we can all use in our lives. And one of the things I found over the last nine months is that they really do help us during turbulent times, especially now.

Bobbi Rebell :

Especially now, and as much as we turn the page and we're now in 2021, the reality is 2021 is likely to be full of so many surprises just as 2020 was. I want to quickly ask you a couple questions about the book and some things that you say in there that I think are particularly relevant to Financial Grownups. The first one is you say in there, the cost of rituals is minimal, but their value is priceless.

Erica Keswin :

Yes. When I started studying rituals, I came up with an equation called the three Ps. The three Ps of rituals. Rituals give us a sense of psychological safety and belonging. They give us an opportunity to connect to purpose. And if you add those two together, it equals performance. And so when I think about performance, it could be that rituals impact how our team feels more connected. It could be bottom line performance, but also performance in our personal lives, that when we have rituals in our lives, our cortisol, our stress goes down, our oxytocin, our feel good hormone goes up. We're more engaged at work. We're more engaged in life. And the book has tons of different studies and science and stories of how rituals impact our lives in really positive ways.

Bobbi Rebell :
And one thing I really enjoyed about the book is that there were a lot of specific examples of that. That we can sort of emulate in our own lives. You call rituals magic, expand a little bit on that.

Erica Keswin :

So people will say, "Well, what is a ritual?" To me, a great example is, if I'm lighting a candle, that may or may not be a ritual. If I'm sitting here lighting a candle because my lights went out, I'm just lighting a candle because I need light. A ritual is something that goes beyond its practical purpose. So if I light a candle every Friday at five o'clock to signify the transition from the workweek to the weekend, I'm almost elevating that act of lighting a candle.

Erica Keswin :

And again, it's not to give me light per se, but it does give me a sense of meaning and connection to myself and to what's going on around me. So that's really that magical element of bringing awareness and intention to what we do.

Bobbi Rebell :
And it's different from something like habits.

Erica Keswin :

Yes. I mean, I believe so. A ritual is something that if you missed it for a day or for a week, something would feel really, really off in your life. It could be if you meditate every morning, for me during the pandemic, we started quarantining on a Thursday I believe, and the following Tuesday I said, "You know what? Our family ritual is to have taco Tuesday, I'm going to do it." I saw the look on it, and my kids are older, they're they're teenagers, but the look on their faces and they were able to smell the same smell and the things that we did pre pandemic. And I was able to see firsthand the impact of maintaining some of those rituals, and how it gave them a sense of psychological safety and belonging.

Erica Keswin :

And rituals also create some order out of chaos. And so I think for everyone now, we need to think about how do we maintain some of our old rituals, but also think about, given that things are so different right now, what are new rituals that we also can add to our lives.

Bobbi Rebell :

Which leads us to the five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021 that you have brought to us.

Erica Keswin :

Great. Begin and end with intention. Beginnings and endings are what I call prime rituals real estate. So be aware of how you start your day, and do something that makes you feel most like you. It could be meditation, taking a few deep breaths or having coffee at Starbucks, which is as many people know my favorite ritual. So that's a really important place to start. It also could be how you end the day. It could be how you transition from work to home, especially when we're all doing that in basically one room. So, transition rituals are important as well.

Erica Keswin : Number two is take breaks. For me if I learned anything in 2020, it's that it's really hard to be in front of your computer all day. And so we need to build in rituals to actually get up and move. And a really fun ritual a woman just share with me recently, she calls 20 by 20 by 20. Every 20 minutes, she takes a 22nd break, 20 feet from her computer-

Bobbi Rebell : Oh I love that.

Erica Keswin :

... and stretches. And again, it's not a box check. It's this elevation of, I know this is important, it's giving me a moment, 20 seconds to connect to something outside of myself. So something that your listeners can try.

Bobbi Rebell :

Yeah. And I think that you wouldn't do that if you didn't have the ritual, because you would feel like if you were taking a break, you are interrupting your workflow and it's not going to help your productivity. But if you have it as a ritual, then that becomes something that you don't feel guilty about. In fact, you know that it's going to empower you to do better the rest of the way.

Erica Keswin :

Exactly. And it's something that you're looking forward to. And it would all of a sudden feel weird if all of a sudden three hours went by and you hadn't gotten up to do it.

Erica Keswin :

Number three is to make sure that you're staying connected. Whether you live alone or living with five other people as I'm doing right now, we are all feeling isolated and lonely and we're really wired for connection. And so, one of the things I've been doing as part of my rituals is to say, "I am going to reach out to some friends and check-in, schedule those phone calls. I have one friend where, and this is actually how you and I met the first time we went for a walk around the reservoir in New York, so maybe when we're both back in New York, we can build that ritual in, you know, once a week or once a month for us to stay connected.

Erica Keswin :

But it's been really nice to get off of Zoom, outside in nature with a friend on a regular time, you know, once a week. So staying connected is number three. Number four is giving back. And I do think that if there's ever a time to building a ritual around gratitude, it's 2021. And that could be anything from coming together with your kids and talking about what you're grateful for, figuring out how you want to give back as a family, you know, the beginning of quarantine, living in New York city, checking in an elderly neighbor, dropping off groceries, I do believe it's something that many of us started in 2020 that we need to really focus on. And there's a lot of data around the impact of gratitude on performance and how we feel in general.

Bobbi Rebell :
And part of a ritual can be involving your entire family.

Erica Keswin :

Yes, 100%. And the kids need to, and they want to. Once they get into it and see the impact on how they feel. I mean, I know we both have seen that firsthand. And last and definitely not least, I'm trying to build in some rituals to have fun. These days can feel long and heavy, and as you said in the beginning, just because it's now on the calendar 2021, it's not as if the pandemic went away. I mean, some people woke up depressing, wow, it's 2021 and things still feel the same. And so we need to build in some time for fun, some time for silliness and not feel guilty about it.

Erica Keswin :

You and I have a mutual friend in Randi Zuckerberg, and she shared with me that on Fridays, and she has little kids, so I think that this connects with the under 10 set, but her family has dessert before dinner on Fridays. And they all think it's like the most hilarious thing.

Bobbi Rebell :
Oh, I think any family will go for that. I think kids of all ages will be on board with that ritual.

Erica Keswin :

You know, or on the company side I've worked, spoke with a group at LinkedIn that has a one-minute dance party every day at three o'clock and they just get up and they let loose, they did it in person, you can do it remote. But again, we need-

Bobbi Rebell :

Erica, I want to see you get your twin daughters to do the one minute dance ritual every day at three o'clock. I think that'd be great.

Erica Keswin :

They would, they probably would want me to film it and put it on my social media, which I have to get special permission to do now. But what we do to have fun is every Monday, our entire family, my husband, my 15 year old son and my dog, we all watch the Bachelor. That is our guilty pleasure. We laugh so hard and we are actually this year doing a bracket like a final four bracket-

Bobbi Rebell : Oh my gosh.

Erica Keswin :
... of the Bachelor.

Bobbi Rebell : I love it.

Erica Keswin :

but be intentional and build in some rituals for fun because we all need it, and it's contagious.

Bobbi Rebell :

Well, there're a lot of great ideas and specific examples in your book. So everyone should check it out. Where can people learn more about you? And I assume the book is going to be available pretty much everywhere.

Erica Keswin :

So you can find me, my email is my name, ericakeswin.com, which is K-E-S as in Sam W-I-N.com. You can sign up for my monthly-ish newsletter to hear more about the book. On the website, there's lots of places, as you said, to order the book from Amazon to Barnes & Noble to the Strand, I'm trying to support local bookstores. And I really do believe that rituals now more than ever can help us through these turbulent times. They don't have to cost a penny, but the impact is priceless

Bobbi Rebell :
Very well said. Thank you so much.

Erica Keswin :
Thanks, Bobby. I can't wait to see you in person.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right my friends. What was your favorite ritual that Erica talked about? For me, definitely dessert before dinner. But most of you guys would guess that pretty quickly. Taco Tuesday though, definitely a classic we can all go for. I would love to hear from you. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 or on Twitter @bobbirebell, let me know what rituals you and your family and your coworkers use. A lot of the stuff is for work, but frankly, work and home is kind of the same thing these days.

Bobbi Rebell :

Anyway, I'm also really excited about the changes that we're making to the Grownup List. It's going to be coming out pretty reliably I hope, that's the plan once a month. And I want you guys to join ASAP by going to my website, bobbirebell.com because we are going to be doing a lot of giveaways, including author books like Erica's. We're going to be giving away a number of signed copies of that. And also other authors that are appearing on the show. We have a lot of really amazing ones.

Bobbi Rebell :

And as I mentioned at the top of the show, we are developing some merchandise and some really cool stuff that we are going to give away at first, because we're still setting up the store and we want to see what you guys like and get some feedback. So you can be our beta testers and win some free merch. Just get on the Grownup List again at my website. And of course, don't forget to pick up a copy of Erica Keswin's book, Rituals Roadmap. And if you like it, recommend it to friends. We could all use some calming rituals right now. And of course, big thanks to other Erica Keswin for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Episode Links:

• Erica’s website - https://ericakeswin.com/

Follow Erica!

• Instagram - @ericakeswin

• Twitter - @erica_keswin

• LinkedIn - @ericakeswin

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn-https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbirebellkaufman

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Author Barbara Huson joins the Financial Grownup podcast to share her research and insights on a new way to approach learning about money and wealth, as well as preview her latest book Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success

Get Barbara’s new book, Rewire for Wealth here.

Get all of Barbara’s books along with other books by Financial Grownups here.

Barbara’s Steps to Rewire Your Brain for Wealth

Step #1 -

Start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. Separate yourself from the thought.

Step #2-

The second step is reframing your negative thoughts to see it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought.

Step #3-

The third step is you respond differently. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Episode Links:

• Barbara’s website - https://www.barbara-huson.com

Follow Barbara!

• Instagram - @thebarbarahuson

• Twitter - @thebarbarahuson

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbarahuson/

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT-

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. Now, we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online, and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So, if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power. I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it, and I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have. Go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Three ways to rewire your brain for financial success with Rewire for Wealth author Barbara Huson. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. You know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey, everyone. Hope you guys are well despite all the chaos going on in the world. It's pretty hard to just keep functioning in daily life, but that's what a lot of us have to kind of find a way to keep doing. I've been continuing to work on my book, tentatively called Launching Financial Grownups, and I'm really taking some time to focus, to refocus, I should say, more on this podcast, which I love doing this podcast for you guys. Some of you know I made a big decision coming into this new year to take a sabbatical from my other podcast, Money with Friends with Joe Saul-Sehy. There was literally no way I was going to get my book done anywhere near the spring deadline, so I needed a jolt and this is what I had to do.

Bobbi Rebell:

Coming into the new year, I think a lot of us can benefit from a jolt and just kind of waking up and seeing things maybe a little differently. We've been dealing with a lot of the same old, same old. A lot of us have gotten into ruts, not surprising given everything going on, but look, we've been quarantining and sometimes this can be a good time for a change in mindset, even though yeah, the new year is sort of an artificial way of marking it. But I think there's something about coming into a new year that can motivate us to change our mindset. So on that note, this week's guest is really perfect for all of that. You guys that want to join me in changing your mindset and getting remotivated, Barbara Huson is an author. She has written seven books. The best one is probably, the one that's really best-known, I should say, is Prince Charming is Not Coming. By the way, it was written not under her current married name, it was written under Barbara Stanny.

Bobbi Rebell:

She now is coming out with her number eight book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. When I first heard the title, I was a bit skeptical, but her team sent me an advanced copy, and not too far into it I was on board. That's why I'm so excited that she made the time to come on the podcast and talk about the themes in the book and how we can all integrate them into our lives. And by the way, even though the book is technically aimed at women, I really believe these strategies are truly for any gender. Before I roll the interview, I'm doing big things this year that I want to make sure to keep you guys informed about, because I'm hoping they can really help you reach a lot of your grownup goals this year.

Bobbi Rebell:

The first thing is I'm going to really be upping the ante with The Grownup List. It's been coming out... well, I've been trying to do it once a month. That hasn't really happened, so we're going to, first of all, try to have it actually come out once a month. We're going to have some big giveaways that I'm really excited about, starting with the one that's going to come out soon in January. So please get on the list. It is free. You just go to my website, BobbiRebell.com to sign up. Please also follow me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1. If you go there, just send me a DM just to say hi so I know that you're there and you've heard this on the podcast. And by the way, apologies in this interview for any audio glitches. Barbara was coming to us from an area with really weak signals, wifi, whatever you want to call it. So the audio is not ideal, but the interview is well worth it. Here is Barbara Huson.

Bobbi Rebell:

Barbara Huson, welcome to Financial Grownup. We're so glad to have you here and we're so excited to hear more about your new book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. Welcome.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you, and thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Before we get into that, I want people to know a little bit about your background, because it is one of a kind. You come from a very unique perspective in your approach to wealth and basically how we should be thinking about it.

Barbara Huson:

I grew up in a wealthy family. My father was the R of H&R Block. The only advice he ever gave me about money was, "Don't worry," which I thought was great advice. I didn't understand money. I just wanted to spend it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't want to worry about money. I would love to just spend it. Sounds good to me, Barbara.

Barbara Huson:

Yeah. It sounded great to me until I found out very early in my marriage that my husband, who was a stockbroker, was a compulsive gambler. Over the course of our marriage, he lost a fortune of my inheritance. Here's the insane part, I continued to let him manage the money because that's how terrified and intimidated I was by anything to do with money. After our divorce, I decided I didn't want to deal with money, it's not my thing. Well, I have learned that if you don't deal with your money, your money will deal with you. Then the next year, I got tax bills for over a million dollars for back taxes my ex didn't pay for illegal deals he got us in. My signature was on everything. I hired lawyers, I got the tax bill down. I sold what was left in my trust. I was left with nothing. I had a few properties. I had a few properties…and so if I lived frugally, I'd be fine. I had three daughters. I was not going to raise them on the street. I was determined to get smart.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That's what we call a financial grownup moment, is having your husband gamble away your fortune and having to figure it out with young children. For sure. So you have a lot to teach us. I know that from that moment, you went on this mission. For years, you've really dedicated your life to educating women, to coaching women about wealth. You now have seven books out. Your eighth one is coming out and now you're here talking to us, which I'm so grateful for. You brought us three tips to rewire your brain for financial success. First, talk a little bit before we get to that about the whole concept of that, because this is a whole different way to think about money, starting with how our brains work.

Barbara Huson:

About six years ago, I stumbled on an article about neuroscience. If I could integrate neuroscience, the principles of neuroscience, of rewiring your brain into the work that I was doing with finances, helping women become financially empowered, that can expedite the learning curve and get them past the resistance in a very short time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us an overview of the three tips, and then we can talk about what each one is.

Barbara Huson:

So the three steps are simply recognize, reframe and respond differently. Recognize, reframe, and respond differently. I'll explain these steps in a minute, but you must do these over and over and over and over again, because the key to rewiring your brain, to changing the habits, is repetition. So the first step, recognize. What that means is you start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Start observing them. "Oh, I'm having a thought about not having enough. Oh, I'm having a thought about I have to have those shoes. I have to have that designer handbag," or whatever. Or, "I'm not enough." But you start observing, and you observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. "Oh, isn't that interesting? I'm having a thought," because by doing that, you separate yourself from the thought.

Barbara Huson:

The second step is taking that thought, "There's never enough," and reframing it, seeing it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought, "Oh, there's enough. There's enough," or maybe it's, "oh, here's an opportunity to rewire that thought." The third step is you respond differently. You [inaudible 00:09:24] do. What you do want to do, which doesn't feel right, which doesn't come naturally. In that case, there's never enough and you could go into fear and not want to open your bills and not want to look at your checkbook. Therefore, the thing to do is open at least one bill or start looking at your checkbook. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you say to people that maybe have people around them that are counter-effective? I don't know if that's quite the right word. They're not supportive of this rewiring idea. That are filling people with the wrong kinds of thoughts. How do you do that? Especially, we're in quarantine, sometimes we don't have much choice with who we're with.

Barbara Huson:

It's really, really important that you, at least while you are rewiring, while you want to shift from being one way to being another way, it's really important to surround yourself with people who are supporting you and not trying to rain on your parade. And that may mean if your husband is being a naysayer, simply not listening, walking out of the room. But it's really important, it's a really good point you made, because you become who you're with. There is a tendency to become who you're with. It's very important to distance yourself emotionally, if not physically, from the people who are not there supporting you.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is such good advice. Tell us more about... The book is coming out in January. Tell us more about where people can find out more about the book and about you and be in touch with you.

Barbara Huson:

Well, you can go to my website, which is Barbara-Huson, H-U-S-O-N, .com. Barbara-Huson.com. The book is actually for presale now. I know it's on Amazon and Barnes & Noble, but yes, you can come to my website. There's just lots of stuff on there, and I have wonderful offerings on there. I invite anyone to come.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, thank you so much for joining us. I love the book. In fact, I endorsed it, so that's truly something that I don't do very often, but this book really struck me as something very important that we should all be embracing in the way that we approach money. I think a lot of people can benefit from this different way of thinking about wealth and our money. So thank you so much for being here and thank you so much for this newest book.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, are you guys ready to rewire for wealth? Let me know how you like the book and what other authors you'd like for me to invite on the Financial Grownup podcast. We actually have a lot of big author interviews coming up this winter, and most of them are going to be donating books to be given away to those of you on The Grownup List. We're also giving away branded merchandise as a sneak peek to what we're going to be fully launching a little bit later on, probably early spring. And you can enter and win only if you are on The Grownup List. Super easy to join. Go to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and just sign up. See you guys there. Big thanks, of course, to Barbara Huson, for helping us rewire for wealth and be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Journalist and author Nicole Lapin shares a hilarious story of how a lack of preparation almost led to total humiliation.  Plus why procrastination can be a good thing for financial grownups.

Nicole’s Money Story:

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. I started as a business reporter on the floor of the Chicago Merc when I was 18 years old, and when I was asked if I knew anything about money news or business news, I totally lied, and I faked it till I made it. And then I had to become real, because I found that money is just a language like anything else, and I could not speak that language. So I was going to interview the founders of a tech company at the time and my boss, who was awesome, said to me as I ran out the door, and I would always carry like a big diaper bag, almost combat ready with all sorts of stuff, like a poncho just in case, from my time in actual general news, I didn't know what would happen. I was combat ready. And he was like, "Do you have the P&L?" You know, a lot of people call me NL or Lapin for short.

Nicole Lapin:
And I was like, "No dude, I'm good. I don't need to pee." And I get to the interview and the PR person was like, "Do you have the P&L?" And I'm like, okay, think, Lapin, think. She is not asking you if you need to pee, this must be a money term. I sit down with the founders, and they're like, our profits, as you can see from our P&L, you know, blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, okay, okay, has to do with profits, think, think, think. Profits. L, losses. And I kept saying PnL, like Kibbles 'n Bits, and I didn't even know it was an and. Like, I just was so clueless, and that was a great example of how I had to think about this right on the spot and definitely was not prepared.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, so what happened? How did this play out? Did you have an aha moment in the middle of the interview?

Nicole Lapin:
I had the aha moment, and I knew enough that it had to do with their balance sheet, and so I could sort of dance around it and get through the interview. Then after that I wrote down PnL, like N for Nicole, and then it took me another hot minute to realize there was an and sign. It was like profits and losses.

Bobbi Rebell:
At the time, did you confess to anyone? Did you tell your boss, "I didn't know what that meant," or did you just keep going?

Nicole Lapin:
No, no, no, no, no. I just had super intense imposter syndrome, and I just thought everyone was going to figure out that I didn't know what I was talking about, and I would have never, ever admitted at the time that I couldn't speak this language. I only now can talk about this, very gladly in hindsight. I love making fun of myself with the most embarrassing money stories, but no, definitely not at the time.

“Money is an intimidating language. It’s ok if you can’t speak the language. Just ask what something means.”

Nicole’s Money Lesson:

Nicole Lapin:
I think realizing that money is an intimidating language. We just don't have a Rosetta Stone for this growing up. And it's okay if you can't speak the language. Just ask what something means. I've talked to COs of major publicly traded companies who have asked me like what does [inaudible 00:06:00] mean, for example, like right before we went on the air, and I was like, "Dude, it's just the bond buyback program." Like, no big deal. And they were like, "Yeah, I just didn't know the terminology." And so there's lots of terminology that sounds confusing. If you went to China and you didn't speak Chinese, you'd be confused. If you went to Wall Street and you didn't speak the language of money, you would be confused, too.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I love that you're saying that, because so many of us kind of nod and pretend we understand something and maybe make decisions that we shouldn't make, because we don't want to admit that we don't get it.

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah, totally. And you're definitely not alone. I think a lot of people smile and nod and don't join basic money conversations because they're too intimidated and too scared to admit that they don't know what's going on.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And by the way, your website and your books are a tremendous resource for understanding a lot of this stuff.

“I aim for progress and not perfection. If I have more good days than bad days then I am totally winning.”

Nicole’s Money Tip:

Nicole Lapin:
I like to rethink conventional financial wisdom, conventional business wisdom. And yes, you're right. I rewrite financial dictionaries and business dictionaries. I did it in the back of Rich (beep) and Boss (beep). This is maybe why I'm single. But at the end of every chapter in every book, I rethink conventional wisdom to hopefully help you think for yourself. And procrastination is often used as a bad word. It's used as something that you should avoid, but I actually think that you can not fully procrastinate, because it's so cathartic to cross out all the things on your to-do list, like, here we go, dry cleaning, you know, pick up this, blah blah blah blah blah. And actually, those things might not move you towards your goals. So if you remind yourself of what you're working toward and what you have to do and almost connect the dots, I came up with a Super Woman journal that's a companion journal along with Becoming Super Woman to help you do that throughout the day, and I create this point system that's almost like a weight loss sort of system that allows you to give yourself points for things you're focusing on and forgive yourself first if you're not focusing on just the then and there. Because I think we can have it all. We just can't do it all, especially not at the same time.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And another thing that I love about the book is you have these really compelling quotes. For example, related to what we were just talking about, you have a quote from Mark Twain, "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow," which makes a lot of sense when you really think about the reasoning behind it.

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. If you have to pick up your dry cleaning or something, and you need to get something done that will move you toward making your side hustle your full time hustle, I would do that and then get your dry cleaning, unless you really have like nothing, nothing to wear. I would do that later on.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing in the book that I love is that you have not just a to-do list, but a have done list.

Nicole Lapin:
Yes. Because, you know, we often get into this mode of we've just not accomplished anything, and we're not doing anything compared to everybody else on Instagram. And I think comparison is the thief of joy, and also we tend to compare ourselves to the best version of each aspect of our lives. So we compare our fitness regime to a fitness blogger who works out five hours a day, or our mommy life to that of a mommy YouTuber who bakes bread for her kids and homeschools them. That's not realistic. And so if we get into that cycle and we don't have the definition of what success is to us, we often feel inadequate. We shouldn't.

Bobbi Rebell:
No, we should not feel inadequate. But one thing that you also work through in the book is you have specific plans for people to organize and get towards those goals in a realistic way, not in a way where you're trying to keep up with somebody, like you were just talking about.

“Comparison is the thief of joy”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

We didn't get to this in the interview, but a lot of Nicole's advice focuses on productivity and avoiding distraction and all the stress that that causes, and of course spending time when you didn't mean to on things. For example, she recommends a browser extension called unroll.me. It's free, and I am now using it. I will leave a link in the show notes. You can always find the show notes by going to bobbirebell.com and then going to the Financial Grownup podcast area. There's also a handy search box in the upper right hand corner, where you can always just type in the guest name or any keyword, but definitely check out unroll.me.

Financial grownup tip number two:

Another one from Nicole's book was to keep emails to five sentences. If it has to be longer than five sentences, then it deserves a phone call. I'm going to start trying that in my workflow. We'll see how it goes, but if you do it, too, let me know how it goes.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Nicole’s website - nicolelapin.com

• Nicole’s book Becoming Super Woman

Follow Nicole!

• Instagram - @nicolelapin

• Facebook - @NicoleLapin

• Twitter - @NicoleLapin

• YouTube - @NicoleLapin

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Fran Hauser became a financial grownup very young, helping her immigrant parents build their businesses by doing the books and serving as a liaison to clients as early as 1st grade. The author of “The Myth of the Nice Girl, Achieving a Career You Love Without Becoming a Person You Hate” now applies those early life lessons to her search for  startup investment opportunities.   

 

Fran’s money story:

Fran Hauser:
Yes. So my parents are Italian immigrants who moved to Mount Kisco, as you said, and like many immigrants it took a lot of courage to make this move. They were uneducated, they didn't speak the language, and they were moving to a place that was completely foreign to them. What each of my parents did have though, was a skill. So my father was a stonemason, my mother was really good at sewing, so they both started small businesses. My dad a stonemeasonry business, and my mom opened up a tailoring shop with her best friend. Being the oldest of four, they needed my help, especially when it came to communication. So when I was in first grade I was preparing all of my dad's invoices. One memory that I have is I could only add at that point in time, I couldn't multiply yet, so my aunt actually created a sales tax chart for me, so that if the monthly maintenance was $300, I could see exactly what the sales tax was, and then just add the two numbers together.

Fran Hauser:
So that was first grade, and then even in middle school I was helping my mother with marketing. So helping her come up with a logo, and getting different marketing and sales materials printed. So I got exposed to business at a very young age, and even understanding things like revenue, and expense, cashflow, you know seeing that when more cash comes in than goes out, decisions that need to be made around what to do with that extra money. It was really interested watching my dad because he took some calculated risks and invested in both commercial and residential real estate, which proved to be fruitful. I would say at a very, very, very young age I played this role of bookkeeper/marketer/general manager.

Fran Hauser:
Another vivid memory I have that I'll just share with you is when my father was asked to go look at a job, a potential client, and give them an estimate, he wasn't able to understand the directions to actually get to the house. So I would listen in on another phone and write down the directions, and then I would go in the car with him and we would actually drive to the residence together, and then I would get out and I would basically be the translator for him. So that was my childhood, pretty unconventional.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Very unconventional. How did you assume this role? Were there specific deliberate conversations, or did it just evolve organically as you grew up in the household?

Fran Hauser:
It really evolved organically, because I was the oldest. Really, these things just fell on me. It made sense, if something was broken, even in the house, and needed to be repaired, I would be the one to call the plumber or the contractor, and at the time it felt really hard. It was frustrating, for sure, at times because I just felt so different from all of my "American" friends, who were doing sleepovers and play dates, and I had so much more responsibility. Obviously, looking back, it was actually such an incredible experience, because I learned so much, not just about business but also about risk taking. Watching my parents, who had so much going against them, they were at such a disadvantage, but they were still able to take these risks. Whether it was building these businesses, or investing in real estate, and if you look at my career, I've taken many risks in my career. I've reinvented myself several times. I left Coca-Cola and the late nineties to go to an early stage internet company, Movie Phone. Or five years ago, I left a really comfortable job at Time Inc. to move into startup investing.

Fran Hauser:
So I haven't been afraid to take risks, and I think a lot of that comes from seeing how disadvantaged my parents were, and feeling like if they could take risks, I should be able to.

Bobbi Rebell:
I wanted to ask you, so you mentioned, and I was going to bring this up, that you now are a startup investor. How did this background in business and understanding risks, and understanding strategy and marketing, and even just the basic economics of business, how does that inform your approach as an investor now?

Fran Hauser:
So I think in a lot of ways. For starters, when I'm evaluating the entrepreneurs I'm looking at them and I'm saying, "Do they have the capacity to take risks? Will they jump in with both feet?" And I'm also looking at what kind of mindset do they have? Are they optimistic? I always felt like my parents approached every single venture with such optimism, and with an abundance mindset, and treating people kindly and with respect. So those are things that I really look for in an entrepreneur, and then the other side of it is the brass tactics operational side, which is I feel like I'm really good at looking at financials and understanding what the risks are, really getting nitpicky when it comes to the assumptions that are being used. So I feel like I can look at a PnL pretty quickly, and projected cashflows, and all that good stuff, and I'm just co comfortable. I'm so comfortable with numbers, and I'm so comfortable with looking at forecasts and really trying to make sense of it, and also understanding is there a there there?

Fran Hauser:
The other part too, I would say, is just understanding markets, understanding consumers. I think that also comes from just having spent so much time with my parents clients. So it's impacted me as an investor in so many different ways.

Fran’s Money Lesson:

I would say the lesson is to not be afraid to take risks, and when you do so, really approach it with a mindset of abundance and optimism, and don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to go all in and to jump in with both feet, and then also the last thing I would say, which really ties back to the book, is to treat people with kindness and respect, because I think you look at my parents who barely spoke a word of english, and they were still able to communicate through a lot of nonverbal cues, and a lot of that had to do with being charming, and being kind, and that will take you far.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, because the book is really all about being nice, but in a strategic and smart way.

Fran Hauser:
Yes, being nice in a way where you're not a pushover, and you're not veering into people pleasing territory. It's really about how you can be both nice and strong. Those two things are not mutually exclusive, and that you bring both of those into virtually any situation at work.

Fran’s Everyday Money Tip:

Yeah, I love this. So what we do in my house is, instead of a normal piggy bank, we collect coins in a five gallon water jug. The kids love it because it's so much bigger than a piggy bank, and it's clear, so you can see the progress. The last time we cashed it in the coins were worth $4000, and it took us several years to fill it up, but it's just a really fun way to teach your kids about saving and about goals.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where do you cash it in, what's that experience like? Is it one of the machines, or do you bring it to a bank?

Fran Hauser:
It's actually hysterical because it's so heavy, so what you have to do is we put duct tape over the top of it to close it, and then we literally roll it-

Financial Grownup tip number one

one thing that Fran talks about in The Myth of the Nice Girl is the importance of how things are presented, the tone that you use in your voice. So you can be firm, and not be a pushover, and still be nice. Think about the way that you say things.


Financial Grownup tip number two

don't say sorry so much. Try replacing it with "Thank you." Fran points out that many women apologize of things that not only were not their fault, but also they aren't really sorry about. For example, not being able to attend an event. She would often apologize for declining an invitation, instead, she advises to simply say, "Thank you for the invitation." And say that you will not be able to attend.

Episode Links:

• Fran’s website - Franhauser.com

• Fran’s book - The Myth of the Nice Girl

 

Follow Fran!

• instagram - @fran_hauser

• twitter - @fran_hauser

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Bobbi reveals her favorite new money related books for financial grownups, and how to decide if they are right for you. This episode's picks include Undaunted, Overcoming doubts and doubters by Hint Founder and CEO Kara Goldin, The Rocket Years, How your Twenties Launch the Rest of Your Life, by Elizabeth Segran, The Money Tree, A story about Finding the Fortune in Your Own Backyard by Chris Guillebeau and The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live by William Hirsch. Plus a bonus fiction pick; They Wish They Were Us by Jessica Goodman

Book 1: Undaunted. Overcoming doubts and doubters by Kara Goldin.

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

Kara is the founder of Hint and while I have yet to meet her in person we’ve got a lot of friends in common and have spoken many times- I thought I knew her pretty well before I read her book. And certainly from all the articles that have been written about her success. I had no idea. Kara reveals a lot in this book -and it is interesting because it’s really the candid and not so pretty personal side of a business launch. Things we just assume ‘get done’ she was actually, often with her family in tow, just doing herself. And even when it looks like - oh - she made it-there she is on the cover of a magazine being lauded for her achievements- behind the scenes- the business hit another HUGE challenge- and all that work could just go “poof’. The book also has a lot of “what would I have done given those choices- all of which were bad choices?” - something we can probably all relate to during the pandemic. I was on the edge of my seat reading this- not typical for a business book. Highly recommend.  

Who is this book for? 

It’s pretty obvious this book is going to be a home run for entrepreneurs who are bootstrapping it- Kara and her family literally put in their own money - and not always by choice- when there was no other funding option. 

But it is also for anyone dealing with tough career choices in this pandemic. As much as Kara has done well with this venture- she wonders along the way- would it have been easier- and frankly MORE lucrative- to have stayed on the corporate track. The books also has great lessons about balancing your business and your family- when it is not always realistic to separate them- we can all relate to the blending of work and family - and not by choice- and Kara has great lessons on how to deal with it all. 

Book #2:  The Rocket Years, How your Twenties Launch the Rest of Your Life, by Elizabeth Segran

Here’s what I liked about the book

I loved seeing the choices of a twenty something through her unique vantage point. Liz clarifies the impact of the decisions we make in a way that really has not been presented before - and that’s not easy to do. I also like the way she outlined the different aspects of the Rocket Years - meaning your 20’s. Its not all financial-it’s a whole ecosystem that works together to form who you are and to a larger extent than many of us consciously realize, the life we will lead. 

Who is this book for?

The book is written for twenty somethings figuring out their lives- but it is telling that the author wrote it in her thirties.. so it is also something anyone out of their twenties can use to reflect on the choices they have made, and the impact they have had. That’s why I love it. 

And you can learn more about Liz and have her answer your questions by listening to my other podcast Money with Friends- where she is a regular co-host this season- it’s in all the places podcasts are- and also we record the episodes live on the money with friends tube channel so please subscribe to the money with friends youtube channel as well.

Book #3: The Money Tree, A story about Finding the Fortune in Your Own Backyard by Chris Guillebeau

Here’s what I liked about the book 

This book is super creative in that it uses a fictional storyline to share a unique perspective on the money decisions we all make. At first I thought it would be pretty predictable but it wasn’t. There are unexpected plot twists and an ending I did not see coming. I didn’t know Chris at all when I did his interview for the Financial Grownup podcast but I was so wowed by him that I asked him to be part of Money with Friends. He was so great on that podcast as well. 

Chris is a wonderful story teller- which is a true credit to him because his previous six books - including Side Hustle: From Idea to Income in 27 Days were non-fiction.

Who is this book right for: 

I love this for anyone trying to figure out who they are- from a money perspective. By that I mean- what are your actual priorities? What are you willing to do to achieve your goals? Are you willing to stop being a victim and start taking action? Are you willing to put in the work? This book will be incredibly motivating. I love it as a book heading not just into a New Year in general - but heading into 2021- a time when many of us are ready- really ready- to re-start whatever we put on hold or get started with new goals that have formed during 2020. And on that note- it is also an awesome gift for your friends that need a little more motivation when it comes to generating income and taking charge of their own financial life. Kind of a perfect book to help someone become a financial grownup. 

Book #4: The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live by William Hirsch.

Here’s what I liked about the book

This is the perfect book for the pandemic and for trying to find new ways to have your  work and personal lives co-exist in your home as you never imagined. Our homes were not set up for us to work at this level- and frankly for the vast majority  they weren’t set up for us to spend pretty much 24-7 there with our family. I know when I set up my business, I set up to have places to work in my home when my kids were all at school and my husband was at work- often traveling days at a time. The pandemic ended all that. 

This is not a book I would have picked up had it not been suggested to me by a friend I really trust- and even though it is not technically a money book- Bill even codes the cost of this tips by cost- so you can prioritize based on your budget. 

I have literally put so many ideas from the book to work: I now have greenery outside my window- and feel good knowing that Bill said it is perfectly fine if that greenery is fake. It actually makes me feel calmer to look out at my fake green hedge. I also use his pebbles technique- where you get rid of little distractions around your home- yes- change the lightbulb- and make sure it is warm color! Pick up the clutter, fix that squeeky door. You get the idea. He has tips on how to arrange your furniture, how to use specific ways of using art on the walls- even things like putting framed windows in your homes to serve as surrogate windows. I did some eye rolls- until I realized- this stuff really works. 

Who is this book right for?

Everyone whose home life has been impacted by the pandemic. Read it and take notes. And of course listen to Bill’s episode of the podcast. You can also read the show notes on my website bobbirebell.com- just search for his name in the search bar at the top of the website. 

Bonus Fiction Book: They With They Were Us by Jessica Goodman

This was a total page turner and I’m going to have an interview with the author, Cosmo editor Jessica Goodman early in 2021. I could not put this down.  Not a surprise it is being turned into a TV series called The Players Table- which will make total sense after you read the book. It is going to star Sydney Sweeney from the series Euphoria- as well as Halsey. It has been described as quote “Gossip Girl meets One of Us Is Lying with a dash of The Secret History in this slick, taut murder mystery set against the backdrop of an exclusive prep school on Long Island”

Episode Links:

• My Bookshop page: https://bookshop.org/lists/financial-grownup-authors

• Undaunted, Overcoming doubts and doubters by Hint Founder and CEO Kara Goldin

• The Rocket Years, How your Twenties Launch the Rest of Your Life by Elizabeth Segran

• The Money Tree, A story about Finding the Fortune in Your Own Backyard by Chris Guillebeau

• The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live by William Hirsch

• They Wish They Were Us by Jessica Goodman

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Hello Seven CEO and author Rachel Rodgers has always been bold. But even she was surprised when her family took the plunge and bought a 50-Acre Ranch just after the pandemic started. Her money story will reveal why it makes total sense to expand just when everyone else is in retreat. 

Rachel’s Money Story:

Rachel Rodgers:
We built a house that we currently live in two years ago. We love it, right? I thought this was our forever house. And literally the moment we moved in, my husband's like, "We'll be here a couple of years and then we'll upgrade." And I'm like, "No. Stop saying that. We're going to live here forever. I don't want to upgrade. I want to raise my children here."

Rachel Rodgers:
And sure enough, two years later we saw a property go on the market here in North Carolina. We were like, "Oh my God, we got to see it." It was a ranch, 50 acres. Horse ranch, so it had horses and a beautiful main house on the property. There's also a cottage and there's trails. I mean, it's insane. There's a river runs through it. I mean, it's a little unreal.

Bobbi Rebell:
And Rachel to put this in context, just maybe four years ago, you were actually living in New York and even in much smaller quarters.

Rachel Rodgers:
Yes. So I lived in an 1100 square foot house in Tenafly, New Jersey, right outside the city. And I loved that house, I loved that town, but I got all the kids in the world and we did not fit. And I was running my business from the house as well, so we were bursting at the seams and needed to expand, right? So we wound up with 50 acres. Not exactly what I intended.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. And to be clear, [crosstalk 00:03:56]. You have four children. Wait, you have four children. What are their ages?

Rachel Rodgers:
They are 20, 8, 7 and 2.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness. Okay. So you moved it to the ranch as we record this about a week ago. And by the way, there's actually a separate Instagram channel for the ranch. Tell us what it's like. So you've now gone up from five years, you've gone from 1100 square feet, and correction in New Jersey I thought it was New York, 1100 square feet in the New York area, we're call it, and now you're at this 50 acre ranch. You've got a big to-do list. How are you managing that financially? Do you have a plan? Tell us more.

Rachel Rodgers:
Yeah. Well, I have a big successful business.

Bobbi Rebell:
So this is your next investment.

Rachel Rodgers:
Yes, exactly. And so I actually use the things that I want to do in my personal life as motivation to keep growing the business. And so we've been having a lot of success. We actually had our first million dollar month where we made seven figures in a single month in June, which was really exciting. But we were in the process of buying this before that and so fast forward to February of 2020, we went to see the property. My husband whispers in my ear, "We must do this." Right? Like as we're walking around the property and so I'm like thinking in my head, I don't know how the hell we would pull this off. This feels like a lot. I got to wrap my head around it. And we were thinking maybe it's a retreat space and we use it for business and we make money from it as well. I couldn't wrap my mind around actually living there personally. It just felt like this property is too big. Who raises their kids on 50 acres?

Rachel Rodgers:
And then, literally, we sat down with the sellers. We connected with them. They are entrepreneurs as well. They felt like our fairy godparents, right? They were almost like mentors and they are the ones that built this property. And so we were like, "You know what, we're going to try to find a way and we'll use it for the business and we'll make money from it. Right? I'm good at that. I'm good at ways to make money from things. And so I was like, great. And then literally two weeks later, there was a world pandemic declared and banks weren't even giving out loans. It was like basically business stopped in March and April. And so we were like, I don't know what we're going to do with this property. Obviously this is like a no-go because who buys an enormous property in the middle of pandemic. Maybe not the best choice.

Rachel Rodgers:
And so we kind of hemmed and hawed and we kept in touch with the sellers and we had realtors involved and everything. But in our minds, we really didn't think that we were going to go through with it. And then as the news kept rolling out, it became clear that this is going to be a long-term thing. We're going to be in this pandemic for like a year, maybe longer, who knows. And so we were out in our backyard at the house that we built that I thought we were going to live in forever. We were just laying there, hanging out with our kids. And I was like, "You know what? We should totally move into that big ass ranch. We should move into that ranch. We should live there with our family. If we're going to be in a pandemic, might as well own a ranch." And my husband's like, "I'm down." That was the moment where we committed in the midst of this craziness. It was like, I think we wouldn't have actually gone through with it without the pandemic.

Bobbi Rebell:
So projecting forward, Rachel, tell us about the business of the Rodgers' ranch? What do you envision now?

Rachel Rodgers:
What we envision for it is that we're going to have a little farm. We are going to host retreats. There's a cottage on the property that I'm going to use for my business as my office. And a little sneak peek ahead, we're actually in the process, because we're crazy, of buying a house across the street. Because of course, before we even closed on this property, the house across the street which is the only other house in the culdesac, that house went on the market. And I was like, "Oh my God, it's the perfect retreat house. It has seven bedrooms. We can house so many clients and we could do amazing retreats on the property. We have to buy it."

Rachel Rodgers:
My financial advisors is like, "Please don't. Can we take a beat?" And I'm like, "No, no, no, we have to buy this." Because when will we get another chance if somebody else buys it. So now we're in the process of purchasing the house across the street, so now we will have 57 acres because that house comes with four acres. So it's like 57 acres total that we will own and we'll rent out the house and do Airbnb and stuff like that. But then we'll have retreats where we'll have like coaching with the horses and we'll have a pool party. We've got trails. We have a tennis court. It's pretty bananas.

Rachel Rodgers:
I personally cannot wait to come. Tell us what is the lesson from this money story for our listeners? How can they put this into their own lives? What can they learn from it?

Rachel’s Money Lesson:

Rachel Rodgers:
My lesson for you guys is during a pandemic or recession or any type of hard time, I encourage you to expand instead of contract. I think that's what our natural response is, particularly when it comes to money. Let us just get smaller and contract and we're afraid and so we shrink ourselves and we shrink our dreams during tough times like this. And I say, no, let's expand. Because I actually think, and I've studied this, there are a lot of businesses and a lot of opportunities and careers that get made during times like this. It's the crazy people who are willing to take risks during these sort of shaky times. Those are the people that wind up having wild success. Netflix became what it is in the last recession because remember they were doing the DVDs and then they started doing streaming because they had to change their business model. And guess what? Now they're an enormous giant. And so I say, look for opportunities to expand.

Rachel’s Money Tip:

Rachel Rodgers:
So my everyday money tip is to pay to be productive. So pay coaches, pay people to babysit you, pay people or pay for space to get things done. So I recently wrote a book and the way that I wrote the book, because I live in a household with a bunch of children, big family, we also have my mother-in-law lives with us. Like there's a lot of people in my house and so I went to Hawaii for a week. This was pre-pandemic and got half of my book done and then-

Bobbi Rebell:
Half?

Rachel Rodgers:
Half of it and then when I got back to town, the only way I got the other half done was by going to a hotel locally and getting the rest of it done. And then I would meet with a book coach every Wednesday. And she would basically sit there and babysit me on Zoom so that I would write. Yeah. But I mean, to some degree I completely get that. I mean, I was joking. My family interrupted me like 10 times all with really good things. They wanted to share their opinion on something. They wanted my opinion on something. They wanted it to tell me something. It was all good things, but it took me hours to watch a 40 minute video that was something for work because I couldn't find a place to not be interrupted and people mean well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Rachel Rodgers:
It's a good thing that they want to talk to you, but you just can't always get stuff done and leaving sometimes is the best thing. Leaving temporarily, you know what I mean?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Rachel Rodgers:
And when you pay for that space, I think sometimes you value it more. Now we obviously can't go sit at a coffee shop the same way we could before, but even that you're not paying for, I think when you pay for someone to watch you, you take it a lot more seriously.

Rachel Rodgers:
You know what someone said to me years ago, and I will never forget this phrase. They said, when people pay, they pay attention.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Bobbi Rebell:
start thinking about ending the timeout, if you haven't already. When the pandemic first started, it was totally understandable that we weren't going to be very productive, so timeout made a lot of sense. But at a certain point, we need to find a way despite the fact that the situation very much still stinks for many of us and could get worse, we got to do it. Rachel talks about even paying to be productive. And I agree if you can do it, do it. If it's not in your budget, well try to get creative. Maybe create blocks of time where if you can't leave your home, everyone else does so that you can get some work done. Or go to sleep earlier than everyone, a few days a week so you can get up and work before they get up. Maybe have an accountability buddy that does it with you and you text each other to make sure you're getting up. You can make excuses that are totally valid, good reasons, but that's not going to get you to your goal. Life has to go on and so does your path to success.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Bobbi Rebell:
don't assume your dreams will always be just dreams. Rachel never imagined moving south and opening up a ranch and a retreat. In fact, that wasn't even in the dream category at a certain point, but here she is. Dream big and then break it down into small steps that you can work towards. Even if the overall timeline has to be extended, just keep making progress and don't forget to document it all.

Episode Links:

• Rachel’s website - www.helloseven.co

Follow Rachel!

• Instagram - @hello7co

• Instagram - @therodgersranch

• Instagram - @rachrodgersesq

• Facebook - @Hello7Co

• Facebook - @rachelrodgerslaw

• Twitter - @rachrodgersesq

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Claudia Chan, author of How We Rise and founder of the She Summit shares her experiences growing up as the child of immigrants who would hide money in all kinds of unusual places- because they didn’t trust the banks. Plus her everyday money tip to help us save money shopping online. 

Claudia’s Money Story:

Claudia Chan:
Yeah. I grew up with a very cash, I guess, focused family. My parents had come to America, not with much. My dad was a bartender, and eventually made friends with folks on Wall Street in the fifties and opened up his first Chinese restaurant. They ended up having a few over the years, but, let's see, when I was a kid growing up ... because they didn't trust banks at the time. And so they would literally hide cash in all different places of the household, so whether it was pots and pans, and inside our pillowcases. So we would literally, even the standard sized pillowcase, my mom would take two standard sizes and stick them into the pillowcase and then put wads of cash between those pillows. I would literally sleep and find money underneath my pillows. But yeah, that was definitely a signature aspect of the family that I grew up in. And I'm sure lots of mom and pop shop, immigrant sisters and brothers out there could relate to that story.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you ever talk to them about this?

Claudia Chan:
It was really my normal. Again, you are the environment you're in. Obviously, when I was a little bit older, I would say, mom, this is not safe. Are you sure this is safe? And she would just go into this whole lecture around you got to be careful with these big banks, these American banks.

Bobbi Rebell:
It sounds so unusual to many of us, but you're saying that was normal among your community.

Claudia Chan:
Yeah. Diversity, right, is such a big conversation today and has been for, I know, many years now. But when you think about America is such a melting pot of so many immigrants and so many immigrant families, and the diversity of people here are ... many of us are mutts, right? We have such different backgrounds and come from such different cultures. And I think that when you think about your local dry cleaning store, your local restaurant, your local deli, your local mom and pop shops, a lot of those were started by immigrant families that had different types of practices, right? So, it's very cultural, and I think we forget how diverse this country is. And I think today's cultural and political events are reminding us of that as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
And we do tend to make assumptions about how people approach money and their relationship with money. How did it impact you as you were growing up into becoming a financial grownup?

Claudia Chan:
Now, I'm not sure if I'm actually a financial grownup yet.

Bobbi Rebell:
You own a pretty big business, my friend.

Claudia Chan:
Well, just by actually giving you that response is a great segue into answering the question. So, to be invited to a podcast where we're going to talk about my relationship to money in 10 minutes is in and of itself a difficult task, because money has really been probably, I just turned 45 years old, the most invisible and yet profound aspect of my life. That I realized today at 45 into my older years that really has so impacted in many ways what's driven me into building the platform and making the impact I have in the world. But at the same time, also been a massive barrier or a massive just challenge in my life because I realized that my parents, for them, money was survival. Money was safety because they lost everything by fleeing from China to Taiwan and coming to the States for the American dream. And they didn't come with here with much.

Claudia Chan:
And so I was so raised with money is really at the center of success. And all the work that I've done building S.H.E. Summit and writing my How We Rise book, and all the leadership work that I've done to advance she, he equity, which is what S.H.E stands for, and creating a better humanity is really success is actually not money. Success is actually freedom, and it is wellbeing, it is peace of mind, it is joy. And I think that what happened to me and I think what happens and consumes so many individuals out there in the world is that we make money our center and the goal, where really money is just the tool to get the freedom, the tool to get the wellbeing.

Claudia Chan:
But the thing is, if you make chasing money your goal, then you're never really going to be happy. I would say that's the quick answer to that question, is really you got to check what your relationship is to money. And really get clear on yourself, whether you're 20, 30, 50, 70, however old you are listening to the story, because some of the most wealthy, financially wealthy people in the world are the least happy.

Claudia’s Money Lesson:

Claudia Chan:

I think that really finding the right team, whether or not it's a financial advisor, and whoever is going to teach you about money and help support you. There's so many aspects to managing your money, right? There's your investments. And there's, do you buy the house now? Or what kind of house do you buy? And they're just like private school or public school. There's just so many choices. And I just think that when we talk about financial organizations, I think it's choose individuals that you really, really trust and get you, that you have the right energy with. It's like a best friend, right? Or it's somebody that is a person that really is the right person for you to be that long-term partner. Because I think having the right people around us will give us the right ... and obviously doing the work as well, right, learning as much as you can. That will give you the wisdom and the tools and strategies you need over time to manage your money well. I can trust organizations if I trust the people.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. That's so important because organizations, I mean, I'm stating the obvious, but they are made up of people.

Claudia’s Money Tip:

Claudia Chan:

So obviously, I am less into shopping today, with a three and five year old, for myself as much as I used to be. I care less about material stuff than I did when I was in my twenties and thirties, now that I'm raising a family. And, again, back to the what matters the most in life question. But when I do shop, whether it's like J Crew, or I go to gilt.com a lot, or if there's a Alexis Bittar, a jewelry store that I love. But I always go to the filter section and I search low to high first to pull up to start at a place where it's the least expensive option. Because again, sometimes I feel like I just, for me, it's more about the transaction, the dopamine shot that you get, that you crave on wanting to make transactions, and wanting to acquire and wanting to buy something. Right?

Claudia Chan:
It's like, Oh, I need a massage. Oh, I want to buy something. And so it's just something that sometimes it's just buying something for the sake of making the transaction. So, that's just one tool that I've used, filter low to high just to keep it simple. And not waste money, because really at the end of the day, whether you need something new, go into your closet and chances are, you probably don't need that item.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I think that's a great thing because it's so easy. And I bet, in most cases, if we start paying attention, they start high to low in many of them because they want you to buy the highest priced thing, so that makes so much sense.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

if your parents are making big financial mistakes, like hiding money in household goods around the house indefinitely, in large amounts, try to help them out. I get the mistrust of banks, but money needs to grow and be invested, or it will be worth less. Please, protect your parents' money.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

I what to add to Claudia's everyday money tip about searching from low to high when you are buying things online. The sorting feature is so important. One thing I have started doing more of when I buy online, which so many of us are doing during the pandemic, is actually really taking the time to read reviews from verified buyers.

Episode Links:

• Claudia’s website - www.shesummit.com

• Claudia’s book - This Is How We Rise

Follow Claudia!

• Twitter - @shesummitweek

• Facebook - @SHESummit

• Instagram - @claudiachanwagner

• Instagram - @shesummit

• LinkedIn - @claudiachan

• YouTube

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Kara Goldin returns to the podcast to talk about how she broke (some) rules, got past business FOMO,  and never relied on simple check lists to bring HINT to the success it is today. Her new book, Undaunted, Overcoming Doubts + Doubters is part autobiography, part CEO manual and part therapy session for anyone aspiring to reach their career and life goals. 

“You can do it. You might need to go slower.”

Bobbi Rebell:
You're having fun, but you also had a lot of work along the way. You had a lot of kids along the way. There was a lot happening. Someone says this, like life is happening when you're not paying attention, that kind of thing. I mean, you were paying attention, but your life was happening while you were building this business. And now, I met you only a couple of years ago through a networking group that we're in, and I only know you as the CEO of Hint, which is a brand that I see everywhere. So I didn't know this whole backstory. I mean, tell us a little bit about that and the journey and the idea that so many people see you now and don't know the backstory and your decision to write the book.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, including John. So John Legend is an investor in the company. It was funny. When he read the book, he said, "Okay, what was so fun is that I kept turning the pages, and I said, 'Okay, this is when she shuts the company down,' and then I realized that you haven't shut the company down and you're doing really well, and so you got through all of these crazy times."

Kara Goldin:
I started Hint 15 years ago, no experience in this industry. So my book is called Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters. And really, it's about the journey of building something because I really believe that, especially in today's world, people [inaudible 00:04:07] you don't need a lot of experience to just go out and do things. What you need to do is have permission from yourself to go and try.

Kara Goldin:
The reality is, is that a lot of people who have built companies, including myself, they're smart people, but they didn't have experience. They had curiosity and they were okay with potentially failing. They went out and just did.

Kara Goldin:
And so, it's the story of building Hint, but really more. It's a story of resilience and doing something that I really wanted to do. And you mentioned kids. I started this company when I had four kids under the age of six. I've sort of come out of the tunnel a little bit and happy to say that I really believe being a parent who has worked with these kids and they've seen this amazing business being built, now, I can't even imagine that they won't be entrepreneurs themself because they've just seen that, while this is hard, they could potentially go out and do whatever they want to do if they find a problem to solve and something that they're facing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's very much a family business. I mean, you would put them to work, let's be clear.

“There is no checklist. There is a vision and there is a willingness to go and try and a resilience.”

Kara Goldin:
Definitely. Yeah, no, I remember early on that my sales guys in New York, my son went out with one of them and he said he's way harder like if the bottles aren't turned the right way, if the labels aren't turned the right way. And so just little things like that, like I always smile when I think about this because although my dad was kind of a frustrated entrepreneur working inside of a large company, I never really got kind of the hands-on learning that I think my kids have gotten, and understanding what things are important. And also understanding that you can actually go up against big industry and win. You can also be a female CEO and grow a company in a significant way.

Kara Goldin:
So I think all of those lessons are really important, especially for people who are sitting here saying, "Oh my gosh, I can't do this. I've got little kids at home," and they're finding excuses as to why they can't do it. You can do it, you might need to go slower.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that I usually do with authors is I ask authors to put together checklists. You said to me, "No, there's no checklist." Talk about why entrepreneurs shouldn't have these checklists that we all love to have, like five easy ways to make sure your business is a super success. Tie it up with a bow.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I've had people say to me, usually it's kind of wannabe entrepreneurs who really want the one or two or five things that they ultimately need to do in order to start this business. And when I talk to entrepreneurs in every single category, every single industry, it's kind of the same thing. And that's sort of the element of making an incredible entrepreneur is that there was no checklist. And when they go back and they think, "Well, okay, I kind of went left, but then while I was going left, I actually figured out that I should go right because this was working."

Kara Goldin:
And so, most people who are really looking for a checklist probably are not entrepreneurs. And that's okay too. I talk about it in the book that you can join entrepreneurs. Just because you're not going to go start a company, it doesn't mean that you can't go and take on an incredible amount of responsibility within a company. But I think that there is no checklist. There's a vision and there's a willingness to go and try, and a resilience that is definitely apparent.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're in a recession now. Many people's businesses have taken hits that they've never saw coming. You had to guide Hint through the last recession and were asked to make some tough choices and you came out strong and a lot of similar companies did not. What are you doing now to weather this recession that you can share with us and maybe give other entrepreneurs some inspiration for getting through this very challenging business time?

Kara Goldin:
I think the number one thing that I learned from dealing with other difficult business times is really focusing on what is working. And so during a time when people are sitting here almost frozen, right, thinking, "Oh gosh, nothing is working," something has to be working. There has to be one thing that is really working. And so can you figure out how to throw the gas on that and get some traction?

Kara Goldin:
And there's always going to be things along the way that are out of your control, that you really cannot predict when those things will come back, if they'll ever come back. But in the meantime, by focusing on those things that ultimately are working, like for us, it was the direct to consumer business, you're able to not only potentially bring in more revenue to your company, but also, when you have something that is working, it's very motivating, not only for you, but also for your team to say, "Okay, everybody, start working on this because it's really working."

“There has to be one thing that is really working and so can you figure out how to throw the gas on that and get some traction.”

Kara Goldin:
And so I think that that is such a key thing during this time for everybody to be focusing on. Find that thing that's ultimately working.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also, you talk about direct to consumer sales. You really hadn't focused that much on your website and sort of owning your own sales until you dealt with companies like Amazon that would not share their data. I mean, that's an important thing is owning the information to understand your customer.

Kara Goldin:
A hundred percent. It really goes back to the purpose of the company. I didn't start this company because I wanted to run a beverage company. I started it because I actually saw that by making the shift away from diet soda to drinking water that tasted better, I got healthier and my family got healthier. And so I thought, if I can actually get to those people who are trying to do exactly what I was trying to do, then that would ultimately help me to grow my business.

Kara Goldin:
But again, Jeff Bezos, we love Amazon, we still sell through Amazon. For us, amazon is just like another retailer, just like a Whole Foods or Kroger or anybody else that we sell through that ultimately owns their own data. But we wanted the option to be able to communicate and get to know our customer as well. And that's really, especially during a time like COVID where out of stock situations and stores on Amazon as well, and everybody was just trying to keep up, we thought we can just go directly from our warehouse and ship directly to these consumers.

Kara Goldin:
And so that business has almost tripled since March for us. It's been really crazy. And again, because we have that relationship with the consumer. It's not that we are shutting down any of those other relationships, it's just that they're trying to manage not just us, but a lot of other vendors as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
But I think that lesson goes to the heart of everything. Whether it's your business or your life, it's important to have that control.

Kara Goldin:
Totally.

Bobbi Rebell:
And one other final topic I just wanted to touch on. Towards the end of the book, you talk a little bit about FOMO. Because you're in California, you see a lot of entrepreneurs, I'm sorry, not entrepreneurs, you see a lot of people working for big companies and making all this money as employees because of stock options and stuff. This is going on while you, I have this vision of you and your family like hauling these boxes and boxes of Hint water to go to stores yourself. Because a lot of this, you're doing yourself. You're funding it yourself. Talk about FOMO when you're building something, not necessarily even an entrepreneurial venture, but just in life. We tend to look at other people and feel like everyone's having this grand thing and it's so much harder for us.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, I think it really just goes back to knowing your purpose. Yes, you will see people with nicer houses and better clothes from Barneys or whatever. I guess there's not Barneys anymore-

Bobbi Rebell:
Barneys went out of business, so there's a lesson right there.

Kara Goldin:
I've been so busy. I have not really focused on that at the moment, but it's really understanding what your purpose is. And again, just going back to the mission, and that's the most important thing. Because there will always be people who have nicer cars and houses and whatever, but if you're doing something that is meaningful, and I think health is incredibly meaningful to people. I think it's the number one thing that I see everyone focusing on today. Like nobody actually wants to get this disease. Wherever you live, how much money you have, how many stock options you have, everyone wants to stay healthy. And I think having a company that is ultimately focusing on that is something that I've reminded myself every single day is a good thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is a good thing. And thank you for all that you do. And by the way, people should understand, it was a natural brand extension to do different flavors of water, to do carbonated water and so on, but then your other brand extensions have not been necessarily about beverages. So even though we think of Hint big picture as a beverage company, you're now into suntan lotion, which you, again, had personal reasons, which people should read the book to find out more about, and then you're in deodorant. And is it antiperspirant or deodorant? Because you actually clarify the difference in the book as well.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah. So it's deodorant, but moving away from antiperspirant because all antiperspirant contains aluminum, which, going back to kind of a family health issue around Alzheimer's that I was grappling with, I saw that we could actually solve a problem for most consumers. Most consumers don't actually understand the difference between deodorant and antiperspirant-

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, and why they shouldn't have it until it's too late. The hardest thing for consumers today is even when you shop at the best stores or you see celebrities holding a lot of these products, you just don't ultimately really understand how that could impact your health until it is too late. And so I thought it's my responsibility to actually try to show people what the difference is.

Kara Goldin:
And what I learned really by doing those products too about just the overall mission of the company is it's not just to help consumers, but it's also to help categories and other brands, like suntan category and also the personal care category as a whole. Because I really believe that if we can actually lead and some of these other large brands that are not really doing great for the consumer follows, that's okay too. That to me is incredibly motivating to know that companies were actually following us to actually create products, for example, that don't have oxybenzone in them. Which is true. I mean, we were not seeing products prior to us launching sunscreen that really called attention on the front of the package to say no oxybenzone. That to me is leading in an industry.

Kara Goldin:
Little Hint. That's what's so crazy. And that really is what the impact of what entrepreneurism is. It's not just about starting a company for money, it's actually creating change. And that is what everybody can do. And everybody sees holes in their life that can be solved. And if you really think that you can go and solve those problems, you have an idea, just try and figure it out. It doesn't matter if you don't have experience. And that's really what you're going to hear out of my book and hopefully will motivate people to go and create other companies. That's what we need.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the book is Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters.

Episode Links:

• Kara’s website - www.drinkhint.com

• Kara’s book Undaunted - www.drinkhint.com/FinancialGrownup

Follow Kara + Hint!

• Instagram - @hint

• Facebook - @hint

• Twitter - @hint

• Pinterest - @hintwater

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Certified Financial Planner shares his advice on how to get your finances ready for the future including some unconventional advice that you likely have not heard before, and how to face tough money choices. 

5 Tips to Figure Out Your Financial Future

1. Don’t spend more than you make

2. Pay yourself first

3. Establish an emergency fund

4. Think long term

“This is going to sound crass but don’t go to your friends because they know very little more than you do, so this is one area where you need to go to experts”
-Brian Ursu, author of Now What? on getting investing advice”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Brian talked about the importance of educating yourself- and that friends are not always the best sources - because they are not experts. . But friends CAN be a great motivator- so consider choosing a book about money to read with your friends and discuss. it can be Brian’s or you can go through my author interviews here on the podcast, or- just ask friends what they like. But read books that resonate and then get together -socially distanced or virtually and have that conversation as peers.

“Your future self gets here a lot quicker than you had planned or thought about.”

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Brian talked about the app that makes you look older- and how it gets us to think about our future self. After you do that- go pull up a picture of younger you- and think about how you see money differently with the grownup life experience you have now had.

“I never in my wildest dreams thought of a global pandemic as a reason to have an emergency fund but here we are.”

Episode Links:

• Brian’s website - www.brianursu.com

Follow Brian!

• Instagram - @nowwhat240

• Facebook - @Nowwhatthebook

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

As a young salesman Adam Carroll got a meeting with a big executive that changed everything. But it would not have happened without getting his name right. Adam shares the story, all the good that came from that first meeting, and specific ways to remember people’s names. 

Adam’s Money Story:

Adam Carroll:
one of my very earliest jobs, I was selling suits for a clothier called Tom James, you may be familiar with it. They visit upper level executives in their offices. We had to ring up people every afternoon. We made 80 dials every single afternoon from 4 to 6:00PM.

Bobbi Rebell:
80 calls?

Adam Carroll:
80 calls.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Adam Carroll:
And the goal out of 80 calls was you had to get at least 15 people on the phone and set at least 5 or 6 appointments for the following week. Well, one of the gentlemen on my list was a man named Jim and the last name was H-E-B-E-R-T. And I was young and naive and I kept calling up and asking for Jim Hiebert. They teach you all the different tactics, just ask for Jim, ask for Mr. Hiebert, it's Adam calling for Jim, those kinds of things. And at one point I said, "I'm calling for Jim this is Adam Carroll." And she said, "Mr. Hebert is not in." And I had been calling him Hiebert for months up to that point. And so, finally I went, "Ah, it's Hebert, it's French. I'm going to make sure I say, Jim Hebert next time." And the very next time I called his office and I said, "It's Adam Carroll calling for Jim Hebert is he in?"

Adam Carroll:
They said, "Oh, he is. Yeah, just a moment." So I got on the phone with Jim set an appointment, and then I got in to see him. And this is where the story gets interesting Bobbi. Jim is in this very nondescript office park in Colorado. When you pull up to the building, it's one of those old drab concrete buildings that doesn't look like it's had any work done to it over the past 20 or 30 years. Lots of luxury cars in the parking lot but when I walked in, it had that smell of musty old carpet that had not been changed in again, 20 or 30 years. I walk into the office. There's lots of oil and gas photos all over the wall and I go in to sit with Jim Hebert and he immediately starts asking me questions about myself.

Adam Carroll:
And at the time I was about to get married, so I was engaged. He just completely caught me off guard. He said, "Well, where are you going on your honeymoon?" And I said, "Well, we haven't really firmly decided, but it's likely going to be either Hawaii or Fiji." And Jim asked me, "Have you ever been to The Bahamas?" And I said, "No, I haven't." And he said, "Well, would you like to go?" And at the time Bobbi, I'm thinking, are you asking me to go to the Bahamas with you or asking if my soon to be wife and I would like to go. And he said, "No, no, no, you and your wife could go to the Bahamas. You could take my yacht." Now, keep in mind this is the first time I met him.

Bobbi Rebell:
You just met him?

Adam Carroll:
I just met him and have not even shown him my shirt fabrics or anything because he said, "I'm not a suit wearer but I'll buy some shirts." And so, he's asking me if I want to take his yacht. I said, "Jim, man, I appreciate the offer. I don't even know how to take that." I said, "What is your yacht like?" Any points over at the wall? And he goes, "Well, there's a picture of it right there." And there's this like 75 foot schooner looking yacht. And at that point I was, again, dumbfounded and I said, "Jim, I don't know the first thing about captaining or piloting a yacht, I don't even know what you call it." And he said, "Oh, don't be silly Adam, there's a full-time captain onboard." It was in that moment, Bobbi, that I realized that I have a lot to learn first of all in the business, but a lot to learn from this gentleman.

Adam Carroll:
And he and I became good friends, he invited me to his country club, we had lunch number of times. I never did take him up on his yacht offer because I just thought it was too much. But he was the one who got me started in this process of teaching people about money because he said, "There's a book I want you to read, it's called Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki." So he handed me the book. He said, "When you're done with that, I want you to read the Cashflow Quadrant," and then he handed me that book. And from that point forward, I just started amassing this, as you can see behind me in my office here, just a massive library full of personal finance books. And he really was the one who got me started in the process and it was all because I knew his name.

Bobbi Rebell:
All because you knew his name properly. And why do you think he bonded with you? What was it when you look back? Because this is someone that made a huge difference and does he offer every salesman that comes to use his private yacht with his captain? I mean, why so generous? I mean, now that you got to know him, have you ever said to him, "Hey, we had just met. That was a big thing."

Adam Carroll:
I had that conversation with him and I said, "I really can't accept the offer." I had asked him at one point, "Jim, just out of curiosity, how much does it even cost to put gas in the yacht to get to the Bahamas?" And he was flippant, "I don't know, it's probably $6 or $700, I don't know." But he was nonchalant about it. And so, I don't know that he was that generous with everyone, but in some of our conversations at the country club, he kept telling me, you need to think bigger. Your mindset is as small as it is ever going to be right now and it will only get bigger, so I just want you to pay attention to that. Down the road, Bobbi, I found out that his wife was a PhD in molecular biology.

Adam Carroll:
She had invented a way, a mechanism that a vehicle would run on the inside of an oil tanker and spray this foam that would remove all of the coagulate or whatever that was on the walls of the tanker truck and then they could vacuum out the foam, clean it and use it again. So she was making millions and millions of dollars in royalties on this invention. So it occurred to me that this gentleman who had so much to teach me had also been about 25 or 30 years advanced in his career from where I was. And what I have reflected on looking back is that in the past 20 years, I've also come a long way in my career and I meet with 20 year olds and I give them advice, I don't necessarily have a yacht I can give them, but I give them advice to try and give them a leg up the same way Jim did for me.

Adam’s Money Lesson:

Adam Carroll:
Number one, mentors, find a great money mentor. Number two, we talked about names and the theme behind names. My grandfather was amazing at remembering names. He would run into people he hadn't seen in 20 years and the name was just at the top of his mind. And he told me one time, "Adam, the sweetest sound in the world to another person is their own name." And I have taught college students this and young professionals that your ability to remember people's names is one of the things that will set you apart because most people are like, "Ah, I'm just no good at remembering names, can't remember names. I hope there's a name tag."

Adam’s Money Tip:

Adam Carroll:
Get really, really good at listening intently for someone's name when they introduce themselves to you. Be more concerned about what their name is then you saying your name, because what generally happens is if you and I were meeting for the first time, Bobbi, I'd say, "Hi, what's your name?" You'd say, "Bobbi," I'd say, "My name's Adam." And I'd walk away going, I nailed my name that time. I nailed it. It was two syllables, it was super confident but instead I need to say, "Hi, what's your name?" "My name's Bobbi." "Bobbi, it's so nice to meet you. Bobbi if you don't mind me asking, where are you from?" And then you would answer and I might say Bobbi again somehow, but I'm working it into my own mind, so I will never forget your name. One other quick money tip on names, I see it spelled out over someone's head. So Bobbi, I might say, "How do you spell it? How do you spell your name Bobbi?"

Bobbi Rebell:
B-O-B-B-I.

Adam Carroll:
B-O-B-B-I. So every time I saw you I would see B-O-B-B-I spelled out over your head and I might even say, next time I saw you, "Hey Bobbi, with an I, what's going on?" And some people are endeared by that because if you are meeting a Hallie with an IE or Haley with an EY or it's H-A-I-L-E-Y, people really care about how their name is spelled. My wife's name is Jenn and it's two NN's and it bugs her when people have one N for particularly those who know her well. So there is something about your name and remembering it in my mind will get you business.

Bobbi Rebell:
Very well said. Great advice.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Another way to remember names, association. Adam recommended this to me after we wrapped our interview. And I actually remember I had learned this in college. So this is what you do, whatever the person's name is you think of someone that you know that has that name, a similar name, or maybe someone famous that has that name and then you associate them with that person, it works. Also, using their name frequently in the conversation, yeah, it's a cliche, but it does work. And by the way, I noticed Adam was doing it during our interview.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

I was shocked that Adam had to make 80 calls to sell that high-end clothing, but it is a reminder that this stuff is not easy. And to be successful sometimes it's both a numbers game, as well as being just a little bit better, maybe a lot better in some cases than the competition. Doing things like making sure you personalize each call and know how to pronounce the name, making sure to spell check all your written communication.

Episode Links:

• Adam’s website - www.adamspeaks.com

Follow Adam!

• Twitter - @AdamCarroll

• Facebook - @AdamSpeaks

• YouTube

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Jen Risher, Author of “We Need to Talk, A Memoir About Wealth” and her husband made a fortune thanks to stock they both received while employed at Microsoft, adding more when her husband joined Amazon. But as Jen shares, the blessings of wealth came with a social awkwardness until she learned some key strategies we can all learn from and apply to our lives when we have different financial circumstances from those around us. 

Jen’s Money Story:

Jennifer Risher:
I joined Microsoft, and I met my husband and then I got these things called stock options which ended up being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. And that was the beginning because six years later when David and I were married and expecting our first child, he took a job at a small unknown start-up that was selling books on the internet called Amazon.com. And there we were in our early thirties, company went public and yeah, we had more money than we could wrap our head around.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is wonderful, but it also made your life a little bit complicated and your money story has to do with how it, I guess, influenced the different challenges you faced when you were a new mother. Tell us your money story.

Jennifer Risher:
Yeah. Well, after our first daughter was born, well, motherhood is incredible, right? So this curtain opened, I entered this new world, I had this incredible baby, and I joined a moms group with other new moms and we were all in it together. I mean, everyone wants to talk about how much their baby isn't sleeping, and how to keep them from crying and just all the joys, the ups and downs. And I felt so connected to this group of women. At the same time, I had this other curtain lift and I was in this other new world where there was really silence. No one talks about money and I heard that, "Oh, the wealthy don't want to worry about people only liking them for their money." But I wasn't worried about being liked for what I had. I was worried about being hated for it. So I kept it secret. I kept it hidden. So as the women in my mothers group started talking about what stroller to buy or what highchair to buy, I felt like I couldn't contribute. I didn't want anyone to know about my situation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Because a lot of the discussion had to do with best value, best bang for your buck, where can you get things for less. Price was a big part of that decision for them and it wasn't necessarily for you. Is that correct?

Jennifer Risher:
That's absolutely right. Yes. So although we were relating on every level to all the stuff that was going on as new moms, when it came to buying anything or thinking about like, I'd have to just be at home during the evenings when my husband was out working, he never came home, he was working really hard. And I felt like I couldn't complain about that. So there were a lot of issues that were kind of coming up for me that I couldn't share with other people.

Bobbi Rebell:
And how did that evolve? Did you become more comfortable with them? Did it start coming out? What was their reaction? And did they react negatively as you feared?

Jennifer Risher:
Well, it took a long time to evolve. It's hard to imagine money is a challenge that needs to be overcome. And I'll say up front that money does make life easier. So no one needs to shed any tears over my situation, but it is isolating. So I didn't talk about it. And normally I do, if I have a question, I ask my friends, "What should you do? What did you do?" I get other people's experiences but when it came to money, there was no one I could turn to. I felt like I couldn't talk. And it's taken me a long time to get comfortable enough to talk and to try and get other people to do the same.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what did you do that helped you get over that hurdle?

Jennifer Risher:
Yeah. I spent some time feeling a little on the outside, which was tough. And I think I spent a long time writing my book and that was part of kind of coming to terms with issues around money. And now I really want to get us talking about money because it is a way to connect and learn from each other. I mean, the emotions that come up with money are pretty universal because they involve fear. We're afraid of hurting someone's feelings, we're afraid of not measuring up or sounding unknowledgeable. And we all have some sense of money shame or money guilt. We all have a money story. Right? And so the more we can talk to each other about the emotions that come up for us, I think the better because we'd be more connected.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has it affected your friendships?

Jennifer Risher:
When you don't talk about something, I think it tends to loom large and take on a life of its own. It gives money a lot of power when you don't talk about it. But I think when you actually can have that dialogue, it kind of puts money in its place as a tool and a benefit. That's something that's not bigger than I am or than a friend is. So the people who know me and know that that's just something that I am lucky enough to have as a tool in my toolbox.

“I really want to get us talking about money because it is a way to connect and learn from each other”

Jen’s Money Lesson:

Jennifer Risher:
I think it is important to be transparent and to acknowledge those differences upfront. And when they come up, to talk about them, like if I want to go to a fancy restaurant and I know the person that I want to have dinner with, can't afford it, [inaudible 00:07:20] "It's on me this time." Or if someone feels like they don't want to go to that restaurant, they want to eat somewhere more within their budget, then we need to talk about it and make sure that those things don't become bigger than us and that we're in communication. So I think it really is important to maybe get uncomfortable for a little bit and to be vulnerable and really connect as people because ultimately, I mean, that's where life happens and that's where happiness happens. Is in our relationships and our connections with other people.

Jennifer Risher:
People say money doesn't make you happy. And I used to tell myself, "Oh, money doesn't make me happy. Well, it's not going to make me happy." Kind of secretly thinking that it just might, but now I can tell you from firsthand experience that yeah, it's nice, but it's not it. It really is those relationships that you have with other people.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it sounds like you've evolved. How would you have approached that group differently?

Jennifer Risher:
I used to want to keep things hidden and now it doesn't benefit me, it doesn't benefit anyone else either. I mean, it's not helpful to try and hide what you have or what you don't have because people can sense authenticity and I trust people enough to be able to handle the fact that I have money and that they can look past it and see me as just another person, because that's how I feel and I think that's important for us all to know. That, no, money doesn't make you special or better than or worse than. It's just one more thing that you have in your life. And I feel very fortunate that I have it in my life because it means that I can be generous and I am very grateful.

“The emotions that come up with money are pretty universal, because they involve fear, we are afraid of hiring someone’s feelings, or not measuring up.. we all have some sense of money shame or money guilt.”

Jen’s Money Tip:

Jennifer Risher:
It is. I'll tell you a little story because a friend of mine who is middle-class told me how she and her husband drove the same car for many, many years and finally, when it broke down, she bought an Audi Q5. She'd always wanted that car, she loved that car. But then when she was thinking about visiting her sister and driving up in the car, she started to worry about being judged. And in her mind, she heard herself through her sister saying, "Oh, aren't we fancy now? Probably too good for us," in her mind. Then she also heard herself justifying the car, "Well it was used. It wasn't that expensive." And there is an example of, you haven't even talked to your sister and you're making all these assumptions, you're telling yourself stories of what would happen if she had talked to her sister. My bet is that it maybe would be a little uncomfortable, but there's so much relief and connection that can come from addressing your fears of whatever she was afraid her sister would feel.

Jennifer Risher:
And then there is that, like you say, the ownership of, "Yeah, I wanted this car, I'm excited about this car, and I'm happy with it." And to share that excitement with your sister.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think that what you're basically saying is, don't apologize for something. Don't create a conflict that doesn't exist. Don't prejudge that people are going to judge you for a purchase. Live your own life, do what you want to do, and let them react but communicate with them, discuss it. If they have a reaction like that to something you purchase, well, ask them, why. Why do they take issue with you buying something? And in some cases it could be they're taking issue because they have a real concern. Somebody might have a spending problem or something. It doesn't sound like that's the case here, but it's the dialogue. It's talking about it, and keeping that relationship intact and not presuming someone's going to judge you and therefore not buying it or even worse hiding a purchase.

Jennifer Risher:
Yes. Well said. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it is that communication. A friend of mine told me like a year after the fact that she almost hadn't invited our family to join hers to see a Cirque du Soleil show. And she said, "Yeah, I agonized over it for weeks. I was worried that you would only want to sit in front row seats, which our family can't afford." I felt terrible. I didn't realize that she was worried about the finances, but our friendship meant more to me than front row seats. Didn't she know that? But I'm so happy that she said something to me. And the fact that she trusted me enough to bring up money really made me feel closer to her, and our conversation really, it ended up bringing us closer. It also made me more aware of how money might play a role in my relationships with other people and how I could be out of touch. Like that hadn't even crossed my mind. But hearing that from her helped me be more aware. So I think it's just a win win.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, there's so many things. Who knows what we don't know? That people judge us, whether maybe somebody doesn't invite somebody to something because they think they don't have enough money, and they do want to sit in the front row seats, which is not very nice. But some people might say, "We want to go to this restaurant and we don't feel comfortable treating them. And so we're not going to invite them," when maybe they could afford it or would do it, and we just should talk about it. We shouldn't just assume and make judgments about people. And also we should buy things we want to buy if we can afford them and enjoy them and not assume we will be judged. So much wisdom.

“It gives money a lot of power when you don’t talk about it. But I think when you actually can have that dialogue it kind of puts money in it’s place as a tool or a benefit.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

if you are the wealthier of your friends and you want to treat the other friend or friends to say a restaurant meal or the best seats at a show like Cirque du Soleil, you can make it a little less awkward by tying the outing to a special celebration. Maybe it's a birthday, or if it's a couple, maybe it's a couple's anniversary, or maybe there's a work accomplishment to celebrate. That way, you're treating as a gift for a reason, not because of the difference in economic resources.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

The next time you're negotiating for a new job, or you're getting a raise, or you have any leverage in a job or some kind of venture that there's stock options as a possibility, get the stock options. They could pay off big.

Episode Links:

• Jen’s website - jenniferrisher.com

• Jennifer’s Book - WE NEED TO TALK: A Memoir About Wealth

Follow Jen!

• Twitter - @JenRisher

• Facebook

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Getting a PhD was an expensive, and time consuming investment for Elizabeth Segran. So the decision to leave academia did not come lightly. We discuss the season of her life when she came to the realization that it was time to pivot, and the financial grownup moment that clarified what she really wanted to be doing. 

Elizabeth’s Money Story:

Elizabeth Segran:
Absolutely. When I was 25, I took myself to a small village in India called Pondicherry as part of my research. I spent six weeks, the whole summer, walking through this tiny town, learning the language, floating on little boats in the water, exploring the food. And all of this was part of the research that I was doing. And it was one of the most remarkable experiences of my life. But what I'll tell you is that I had very little money in my bank account, and I was spending my 20s gathering all of these experiences, trying to figure out what I really wanted from life, and throughout that process, I wasn't making any money.

Bobbi Rebell:
And how did you feel about it at the time versus how you feel about it now?

Elizabeth Segran:
People often ask me, was it valuable for you to go do a PhD? Especially since, as I explained in my book, I entered the job market in the middle of the great recession. There were no jobs in my field. And so I had to rethink what I wanted to do, and I eventually became a fashion journalist for a business magazine called Fast Company. And I also am now a writer of books. And people are like what were you doing? Did you feel like it was a waste of time? And my answer is always, absolutely not.

Elizabeth Segran:
For those of us who are in our 20s and 30s, millennials and Gen Z, it is far more important for us to find work that aligns with our values, passions, and identity, than to think purely about compensation. And that sets us apart from our parents' generation, who were primarily interested in work that would pay the bills, and that would give us some sort of social status in life. For those of us who are in our 20s and 30s, we know that we're going to be working for 40, 50 years. And we know that that work is going to take so much from us. And so it is so important for us to spend our 20s figuring out what that path is.

Elizabeth Segran:
And for me, that was being in this tiny village in India. I didn't make a lot of money in those years, but I did get a very clear sense of what I value and what I want to be doing with my life. It took being away from the United States, being in this country, spending a lot of time reading and doing all this research about India and my culture and all of these different things that gave me a sense of what I really want to do in life. And so I would not trade that for the world.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to know your opinion then on this pushback we're getting during the coronavirus pandemic. So many colleges are conducting classes virtually, and it's not the same experience for all the obvious reasons, but then there's this idea of what are we really paying for with an education? And the value of that four year traditional bachelor degree and we can extrapolate that to go all the way forward to a PhD when there's now a case being made for people just learning a trade. Is there still value in this whole idea of this extended period of higher education? What do you think about that whole idea that's being discussed now?

Elizabeth Segran:
I'm really sad to hear that many colleges are not just thinking about transitioning to remote learning during this period, but potentially make that part of their coursework going forward. And I'm really sad as well that the higher education is on the brink of collapse, and many people are not going to be able to get PhDs and other degrees going forward.

Elizabeth Segran:
Because there's lots of things that you can learn on the job. For me, I left with my PhD and then I became a journalist. I learned so much while I was practicing the work that I'm doing. And I think that that's true of many jobs. You learn on the job. But what you can't replace in higher that broadening of the mind, reading a lot. I'm spending time with other people asking really difficult questions about what life is about. All of that.

Elizabeth Segran:
It seems so frivolous, especially at a time when the economy is on the brink of collapse, but that is what we need in order to figure out what we want to be as individuals and as a society. It's in those conversations that we figure out what we want the world to be like. If we're closing off the spaces where we can have those conversations, those in-person discussions, the ability to travel to different locations and study abroad and explore other cultures, all of this stuff, if this goes away, I think that we're going to lose something very important.

“There has been this ideal of finding your dream job throughout history but for most of time people didn’t have the ability to actually do that kind of work.”

Elizabeth’s Money Lesson:

Elizabeth Segran:
Here's the main thing that I would like to communicate. I think that we're really lucky because we are among the first generations in the history of mankind who can find work that is an extension of our identity and ourselves. There's been this ideal of finding your dream job throughout history, but for most of time, people didn't have the ability to actually do that kind of work. For most of history, you had to be a farmer because that was the only work available to you. Or you had to learn a trade among a very small number of options that was out there. And even for our parents' generation, this notion was crystallizing, but the data shows that most people were still mostly interested in finding work that paid the bills.

Elizabeth Segran:
That is not true for us. We have the opportunity to find work and pursue work that aligns with who we are. And that is a huge gift. I think our 20s should really be spent trying to figure out what that work is for us and being patient with ourselves and going on these winding journeys to find it.

Elizabeth Segran:
Now, the data shows that 50% of people will eventually find work that is not just merely satisfying to them, but that exceeds their expectations. This is amazing news. Most of us will eventually find work that really makes us happy and really aligns with our identity.

Elizabeth Segran:
Now, the flip side to that is that it is really easy for employers to exploit workers who are working primarily out of a sense of purpose and out of a sense of passion, rather than trying to find good compensation. If we as workers are pursuing our work because we're passionate about it, it's really easy for employer to say that is compensation in itself. We're not going to pay you that much. Or, you're enjoying being part of the culture at this company, as a result, we're going to not compensate you enough. That is the downside to this new philosophy of work. And so the advice that I would give to people is once you figured out your path and you found work that is really engaging and passionate and that you will be able to do for the next 40 years, and it'll keep you happy. Once you've found that, you need to be really cautious about ensuring that you are properly compensated and that you have a good insurance and that you have good benefits because it's really easy to be exploited in this new way that we work.

“It is really easy for employers to exploit workers who are working primarily out of a sense of purpose and out of a sense of passion rather than trying to find good compensation.”

Elizabeth’s Money Tip:

Elizabeth Segran:
When you are considering taking a job, I would really caution you not to get distracted by shiny things that an employer puts in front of you like, "We have unlimited cold brew coffee on tap," or, "We have an amazing foosball table that our employees use," or "We have nap pods." I think it's really easy to get sold that this is a company that really wants to create an amazing culture and make you feel at home and all of that, because what you really need to be focused on is what is the salary that they're paying you? Is it on par with the market? Are you going to negotiate to make sure that you're getting paid appropriately? What is the benefits package like?

Elizabeth Segran:
I think it's really easy for brands to try and convince you that the work that you're so passionate about and the culture of the workplace that you're looking at is more important than your salary. And so you just need to not take the bait.

“It is really easy for brands to try and convince you that the work that you are so passionate about and the culture of the workplace that you are looking at is more important than your salary so you just need to not take the bait.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Elizabeth is adamant that we not allow ourselves to get exploited, and she is so right. But she also makes sure that we know that you have to be deliberate in the industry that you choose to join, because we can only control what we can control, which is our own choices for the most part. We can't change an entire industry's pay scale or the number of jobs that there are in the industry. She learned that pretty quickly about the academic world. You can read more about this in her book, but she goes into her decision to leave academia where only a small fraction of PhDs, and yes, she spent years getting one, actually work their making a grownup salary. Rather than just keep fighting, what is a harsh reality, but is reality, she went into a field that she also loved and where she was able to negotiate the right compensation for the work. And so she is doing something she's passionate about and she is getting paid.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Cut your losses. Whether it's a PhD, a law degree or whatever, if you spent money for an expensive education, the money has gone, regardless. The time has gone, regardless. When we were talking before the interview, I asked Elizabeth how she felt about spending so much time and money on a degree that she wasn't really using. PhDs, honestly, I'm intimidated by the whole idea. It is a lot of time. It is a big chunk of your life. But she still feels it was super valuable. And that education has a lot of value in and of itself. Yes, it is ridiculously too expensive right now, but that kind of education is not the same as a quick online course that teaches you job specific skills.

Episode Links:

• Elizabeth’s website - www.elizabethsegran.com

Follow Elizabeth!

• Instagram - @lizsegran

• Twitter - @LizSegran

• Facebook - @elizabeth.segran

• LinkedIn - @elizabethsegran

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

After 300 episodes Bobbi shares some of her hardest times as a financial grownup. 

Bobbi shares the Financial Grownup lessons she’s learned from her failures throughout life and how to put a positive spin on those failures.

Follow Bobbi

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

• Facebook - @bobbirebell

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