Episode Description:
We all have our moments when we know we aren’t on track with our money values- or we see those we care about going off track. Dr. Megan Ford shares her strategies on how we can look internally at what is happening and how we can use those insights to help others.
Dr. Megan Ford’s Bio: Dr. Megan Ford is a financial therapist and consultant who is exceedingly passionate about helping individuals and couples find more balance and understanding in their relationship with money.
As one of the leading experts in the growing field of financial therapy, Megan has an interdisciplinary education and practice background, earning a Ph.D. in financial planning and a Master's degree in marriage and family therapy.
Megan also served as a President of the Financial Therapy Association (FTA), has co-authored a textbook, The Fundamentals of Writing a Financial Plan, and has published several peer-reviewed articles, including her own financial therapy model, the Ford Financial Empowerment Model (FFEM). Her research interests center on the dynamics of couples, including financial conflict and financial intimacy.
Links to resources mentioned in the episode!
Stackin.com
Follow Dr. Megan Ford!
Instagram - @stackin
Instagram - @moneytherapywithmegan
Follow Bobbi!
Instagram - @bobbirebell1
Twitter- @bobbirebell
LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell
TikTok - @bobbirebell
Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com
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Full Transcript:
Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome friends. Today's show is going to focus on something I don’t like to talk about and that is bad money habits. We all have them. And they aren’t always obvious- on the surface, we talk about things like overspending or not putting enough money away for retirement. But what about being too conservative in our investment strategy. Or not spending on things we need to because we want to be frugal and “good” and then finding ourselves in a bad situation in the future. Or not taking a risk.. And then looking back with regret.
On that note- Today’s quote was something I jotted down when I was watching a show called Open House and a designer was talking about how he finally was able to furnish his dream home and quoted his grandfather as saying:
”In order to have things you’ve never had you have to do things you have never done “
I like this because it’s not focused so much on material things as on having the courage to step out of your comfort zone and take a risk.
Something to keep in mind when think about the choices we make - sometimes what we feel is expected of us, to follow the careful path is too careful- focus on what taking that risk can help you achieve.
Speaking of moving out of your comfort zone- I was intimidated about interviewing this week’s guest. Dr. Megan Ford is a big deal. But I did my best. Megan is a certified family therapist with a Ph.D. in financial planning, the financial therapist behind the financial wellness app, Stackin, and former president of the Financial Therapy Association, of which I am a member.
The interview is a little longer than usual because she was just that good.. I know you will love this conversation.
Here is Dr. Megan Ford.
Megan Ford, you are a financial grown-up. Welcome to the podcast.
Megan Ford:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. I am really excited to be here today with you.
Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you are a “big get”, as they say, because you are a pioneer in the field of financial therapy. In fact, you served as president of the financial therapy association. Tell us more about you and your work and what you're up to now because you're also emerging technology with financial therapy,
Megan Ford:
Yes, so I, I'm busy. I'm a busy woman, but I can talk a little bit more about what got me into this evolving field of financial therapy, and sort of what I'm up to these days as well. So I am a financial therapist, And so how I position that is sort of working in this space between the technical side of finances and the emotional and relational side of finances. So my background is a little bit unique educationally. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, So that's what I, I got my master's degree in, and I recently finished my doctorate in financial planning, so I have this cross-disciplinary background that kind of allows me to look into both of these spaces with some level of clarity, so I think that really where I really. where my origin story, I think about money stems from is important when we're considering. like, how did you get here to this? this place of financial therapy? Why did you choose this path? I am what I would consider a textbook money avoider, Um, I had some early experiences growing up that maybe others I would relate to as well, Um, I had some moments growing up where I did not feel that math numbers, or you know, anything related to that ,money, was for me. I felt moments of confusion and shame and misunderstanding, and I and those were very early experiences that I think carried forward into just this kind of like. I don't want to look at this. I don't want to deal with this. I don't want to be associated with this subject of money numbers. So going into my master's degree kind of was holding on to some of that narrative, and just you know, the virtue of the kind of like happenstance. I. My, my graduate assistantship was working under a financial planning professor, and this, I guess this new field was sort of emerging at that time, and I like to say that I was kind of born into financial therapy, so that time of my life really gave me this new viewpoint on how much emotion is kind of there inside when we're thinking about our money behaviors are our histories, our financial past, and that those scripts, as we,
Bobbi Rebell:
Right,
Megan Ford:
as we call them, are so very present in our everyday lives, and in how we kind of have this, we take this perspective. Like more globally, what's happening in our lives and that's so present for us. so I think that you know it was very much a journey and getting from that point to this point, but what's really great is I think I was able to take this journey also with healing my relationship with money and feeling more comfortable in that space, so much so that I really decided to go out on a limb and get a doctorate in financial planning. It's very much a journey that continues. It's something that I have to resist against still, and I think that that speaks to the fact that you know we're we are ever. We are ever-changing, ever-evolving as humans, and we need to continue that work of financial wellness for ourselves, and that reflection of peace for ourselves as well.
Bobbi Rebell:
I could not agree more. And I I love your vulnerability and your honesty about it Because there's this perception that those of us that you know dedicate our lives to talking about money and trying to help people about money. There's a feeling that we are at the sort of end at the pinnacle of our journey. That our lives are perfect and we've got all the answers. In fact, we often have more of questions, and that brings us
Megan Ford:
Mhm
Bobbi Rebell:
to the topic
Megan Ford:
yep,
Bobbi Rebell:
that I want to steer this conversation towards, which is having positive money conversations About bad money habits. One bad money habit is ignoring money or thinking that there's actually an option that you can just have somebody else take care of your money. You can have somebody, actually, maybe execute transactions. But at the end of the day and this goes to the whole idea of being a financial grown-up, you have to own your financial situation. So to your point about this urge to ignore your money, that is a bad money habit. How can we have good conversations about that bad money habit?
Megan Ford:
There are so many things that we can do. I think one of the things that I land on first is we can't have productive money conversations with others. whether that's an intimate partner, whether that's a family member until we have a little bit of an opportunity to look internally at what's happening, I'm a firm believer in like know thyself before you can, you can really, Um, be super productive in that area with another person. So I think it starts there. I think it starts with examining and exploring your own money story. And what is sort of what baggage financially are you carrying around? still today? That would impede those types of conversations with other people. Um, that would maybe block you from understanding Their perspective that sometimes we carry around a lot of rigidity about finances and how it's quote supposed to go are supposed to be, or how we're supposed to behave. Um, I like to joke that money is one of the things that bring out that little judge in us. We're looking at other people and their money behaviors, and Um sort of what they decide to do with money Like, I think that brings up some judgment in many of us, and that can be that And be okay, But we just have to know sort of what to do with that, so
Bobbi Rebell:
Give us some examples. How we might be judging. How might we judge people with respect to money? What might be some real-world examples that we, so we can better identify it within ourselves.
Megan Ford:
I think I see a lot of times Ind the social media space when we're kind of like scrolling through and looking at what other people have or don't have or spend or don't spend. I think that's a really salient example of like what gets us caught up or trapped in Like, But they're doing that with their money, And maybe I should be doing that with Mine. Um, and so I think we look to kind of like external examples to try and give ourselves a barometer for what should be happening for ourselves, instead of really reflecting on what are my values, What are my beliefs about money, and what are my goals To? What's what am I trying to work towards? Because that's going to look different for every person, depending on who they are and what they're trying to move towards.
Bobbi Rebell:
So another example of that might be When it comes to shopping, you mentioned social media and we see what other people buy. We often can be very judgmental. We might say. Oh, they're not spending responsibly, and just kind of leave it at that and draw our own conclusions. But one thing that you have talked about in your work is asking questions, so this is not so much to social media, that might be to someone that you know, I r l. But, rather than judging them for their purchases, which may on the surface seem irresponsible and we can even take out the idea of whether they can afford it or not, But the behavior they're shopping. we tend to judge. Maybe, and this is, and you can expand on this. But maybe we asked them what was your favorite purchase And why? how did it make you feel?
Megan Ford:
Yeah, I think oftentimes when we do look at financial behaviors we think about kind of that judgment or that shame piece? Like why are they spending money on that? That doesn't make sense to me in my own head. And we do this with partners To we often have a partner who might be our financial opposite,
Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah,
Megan Ford:
and so spenders and savers tend to kind of like, Um, come together because we admire different things about how that works in the other person. but You know, I think the questions to be asking when we see things, we see things happening financially with other people when we see them spending money in certain ways, would just Ee. to like to pause and reflect to ask. some questions may be internally, even externally as well, like what you mentioned. Like, what's your favorite part about you know? spending? I think that's a great and positive sort of reframe on what's happening with, Or maybe judgment around spending for other people, but I like to go back to some of the underlying things that might be behind this behavior because they're there. No doubt. Um, maybe how did they learn about the money we're spending growing up? What are they? What are they trying to cope with in their life right now? That might be expert Est, financially or through spending money? Are they trying to avoid something? Are they trying to heal from something? Um, So I think if we take kind of like, If we strip down the layers a little bit to really try and understand at its core may be what's happening here for this person we gain this new insight into. like, Oh, wow, like, there are some much deeper things that play when we're talking about money behaviors we're talking about spending, but also saving behaviors fall into this category as well. If you know someone who is, Um, you know very much, Needing and wanting to protect their assets. To you know, keep things very very close, Um, in terms of their, in terms of their money, they don't want to spend frivolously, They want to save, save, save, save, save. Um, That's indicating something is going on underneath the surface as well. questions to ask around. That would be you know. What's the meaning Of saving for you? Does that make you feel safe? Does that lend itself to feeling secure? Um? Does that is that a way that you protect yourself from something that happened in your in your past? Is that a way that you kind of work against what you knew potentially growing up? So there's so many lie deeper layers that I think we can access through just asking questions and having more conversations around what's going on underneath the surface.
Bobbi Rebll:
This is fascinating to me because on the surface we think of sort of a bad financial behavior as someone that goes out and spends too much and goes into debt, But it's also not necessarily healthy to be over-saving or over investing, rather than you know, living a balanced life, And it's important to identify those behaviors as well. Maybe not as urgent. There might not be as big red flags, but for example, there's different kinds of investing. Someone might invest in products that are too safe because they're so afraid, but they. I understand that they're not even let's say now, keeping up with inflation, or they might be having bad financial habits, like turning constantly trading, looking for the bigger better investment, or maybe getting information from sources that are less than reliable. Um,
Megan Ford:
Yeah,
Bobbi Rebell:
and I don't want to call anyone out, But you, you know where people are going on social media to get financial advice these days, and
Megan Ford:
yes,
Bobbi Rebell:
that's something that I think is worth a conversation. So how would you handle that? Tell me more about your perspective on sort of bad financial habits that might Look on the surface like someone's paying so much attention to investing. Isn't that great. But there might be some other stuff going on. How do we address that?
Megan Ford:
I think that there's you're. you're. You're pointing to some really good things related to like the darker side of perceived good financial behaviors. Like good and bad is a little bit, kind of maybe like black and white. And so I see
Bobbi Rebell:
Hm.
Megan Ford:
very much like what's in the gray space, but I think that you're pointing to some of the darker sides of perceived good or promoted money behaviors like make sure you get into the stock market and invest some of that money so that you can grow that that money over time. Um, you know saving, make sure you save, save save. We don't talk about some of the limitations or the darker sides of those behaviors that can actually Lead you into unhealthier territory. Like you're saying, Your, Your example of you know trading and Ou know taking a lot of risks with your finances. That's That's something that I think we need to remember Is just because we say something is a good financial behavior. There are aspects of that that can lead us to unhealthy places Over saving again investing and taking on too much risk versus what you know is the capacity you have. so I think that's I think. that's an important aspect to talk about too, when we're talking about financial behavior is. Yeah, there's There's definitely those darker sides.
Bobbi Rebell:
Are there tips you have on how to best address that? If you see these behaviors in somebody that you care about or you may be, you're recognizing it in yourself as you hear this.
Megan Ford:
Hm. I think if you're looking to address that with someone else, really getting curious is a point that I like to make sure to emphasize, because getting curious with others helps to keep the conversation open if we go into a conversation like that, saying like what are you? What are you doing or what's happening here or if you, if you go in with sort of an alarmist kind of tone, Um, that typically puts people on the defense. Um, takes the conversation off the rails. and where we're not really able to have a lot of productive dialogue. Then, at that point, because you know we're overly concerned, their Overly defensive and they're just you know, end up trying to prove why what they're doing is fine to us For the most part,
Bobbi Rebell:
It puts them on the defense. Yeah,
Megan Ford:
it does. it does. And so getting curious using curious, kind of language and questions. You know, I'm really wondering about what's happening with. Um, you know this investment process. Um, what's making you take Those steps in this direction and wondering, Kind of what's going on that's contributing to. Just walk me through the process of like how you're thinking about it so that you really understand, Um, from the person's perspective, who might be a little bit concerned about what's going on That you have a clear understanding of again, sort of underneath the surface what might be happening and then you can speak to that. Oh, Feel really concerned about ‘X’. Um, and so that that can open up the conversation to a deeper level, rather than just trying to. you know, Go tit for tat about what's right and what's wrong. Financially.
Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, right, maybe they're taking risks that they feel they need to take because some external factor created a sense of urgency or panic that you can address separately. And what I love about your approach is that you're focusing on that issue, but you're also really still protecting the relationship. whether it's a partner relationship, a friendship, or perhaps a child. You're still keeping those lines of communication open, because very often we go in with that judgment we were talking about earlier, and that not only doesn't solve that problem, it doesn't address that problem. It also damages the relationship.
Megan Ford:
Yeah, and I think that that is one thing that we tend to think about with money and relationships is like. money is kind of the last taboo. In some respects, couples would rather talk about their sex lives than they would their financial kind of past,
Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah,
Megan Ford:
or, or their financial kind of presence and futures. It's something that brings up so much shame and discomfort, And I can really kind of empathize with that because that's certainly a place that I came from with my own relationship with money as well, so I totally get it. Um, but right, it shuts down the lines of communication when we don't have these conversations when we avoid these conversations or when we bring the unhealthy kinds of narratives, or unresolved sort of narratives into, and we apply that to that conversation. So if I have the narrative, for example, that you know spending money is bad, Is negative will hurt. My financial future will hurt, and I might not know that consciously, but I'm kind of carrying something like that around with me. I am going to represent that in my conversations with other people, I'm going to bring that in. I might not say that directly, but the subtext will be there. It will
Bobbi Rebell:
Right,
Megan Ford:
present itself in how I navigate that conversation So right, having some skills and tools to be able to have more productive conversations. but even before that, being more comfortable bringing up the topic of money in an intimate relationship, Friends, family and partners is something that I'm glad is shifting with younger generations, but we, we still have a lot of work to do personally, and I think is a broader society about money conversations.
Bobbi Rebell:
And you mentioned skills and tools. I do want to give you an opportunity before we wrap up to talk about the way that you're integrating technology into this.
Megan Ford:
Yes, so I think this, this comes back to sort of the now thyself principle, M. and I think knowing thyself is a skill and a tool. But how do we do that? What kind of mechanisms can we use for knowing ourselves and our relationship with money better? Because honestly, that might be a very foreign concept to some people they're like. I have a relationship with money. What do you? What do? Sometimes it feels a little bit woo- woo still Today, not to you and I thankfully, but to others that might just not be something that they readily connect with right off the bat. So some of the work that I have been involved with recently it's a kind of ring at full circle is that I have been working with a fintech start-up called Stackin and they have created this wonderful financial wellness app that really focuses on helping you to explore your relationship with money. So kind of one of the first steps is getting in there and doing a money beliefs assessment, Kind of figuring really what money beliefs bring into these conversations with other people, Maybe into my own behaviors. How are they manifesting? And so giving you providing you, sort of this platform for understanding, exploring your relationship with money more thoroughly, and then kind of charting a pathway for you about how do I continue to walk this pathway of financial self-care? Learn more about myself as I am constantly also evolving to like we're not static in our relationship with money. So as things grow and change, how am I continuing to Pay attention to that part of myself, that area of well-being that so many of us just bypass, Um, and really giving us a way to track and one of the wonderful things that I love about the app is it's bringing together financial data with emotional data, so you're able to connect some of the pieces that you've never been able to connect before through a spreadsheet, or through maybe a like mint, or you need a budget. You know, it's the pairing of emotional and financial data that gives you an opportunity to reflect back and see. Oh, wow, two hundred dollars at H and M. How did I feel about that?
Bobbi Rebell:
Mhm.
Megan Ford:
I mean, I like that You know a couple of the pieces that I picked up. Those will be good for work. I love that for a Saturday night, but truly like, how do I feel about it, that purchase or that set of purchases? Did that bring me the happiness that I thought it would, And so, having that mechanism to reflect to kind of journal about that and then also access sort of a coach if needed, Um through a text, space platform is fantastic, or you know, getting that one on one with a financial coach to get you to that next level of financial well being, So I think it's an amazing thing that we can really utilize, and I think it's the wave of the future.
Bobbi Rebell:
I think every tool that can be helpful to us is definitely worth checking out. Tell us more about where we can learn more about you and be in touch.
Megan Ford:
Absolutely. So I'm on Instagram at money therapy with Megan and that's M, E G A N. And then you can find out more about myself and the stack in team at w, w, w, dot stackin dot com.
Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.
Megan Ford:
You are so welcome. It was such a pleasure.
Bobbi Rebell:
I love how Dr. Ford is integrating technology with how we feel emotionally about money- its not just math and that is a good thing.
This week’s extra credit assignment:
There is a new Netflix series starring Ramit Sethi called How to Get Rich- which is kind of a click baity title for a show that is actually more about getting to the roots of your financial and lifestyle priorities rather than what the title could imply which is that you will be rich just by watching it- you will have a rich life is really what it means. Bottom line: I’m a fan and enjoyed the series and I think you will too! If you are not already please get on my free email list for more financial wellness strategies. You can subscribe at bobbirebell.substack.com or look for the link in the show notes. Those are right on my personal website bobbirebell.com. If you are enjoying this podcast make sure you are following it and please leave a review. I’m insecure- I need the validation so help me out!
Big thanks to Dr. Megan Ford for helping us be financial grownups and invest in peace of mind.