Learn how physical therapist Chris Mamula changed his whole financial path after experiencing two major life events. Chris shares the key steps he took to achieve financial independence on his own terms. Plus a money tip that will change how you approach gift giving. 

Chris’ Money Story:

Chris Mamula:
It's kind of funny that I'm on the financial grownup show, because I spent the first decade of my adult life doing everything to avoid being a grownup. The only motivation I had at all for learning about finance was how to escape work. And I wanted to basically be a ski bum or a climbing dirt bag, and that was kind of my motivation in life. My wife and I, we were married right after I got out of grad school. And we didn't think we could have kids, and so we were just looking for a way to escape the normal lifestyle. We were kind of in the process of doing so. We were going to move west in, this was probably 2012. My wife had a job offer in Utah with a company that manufactures ski gear and climbing gear. And it was kind of this dream thing, and I was just going to quit my job and we were going to wing it.

Chris Mamula:
And we had no idea what we were doing financially. And after a decade of thinking we couldn't have kids, we found out she was pregnant. And so that was the first shock. So we decided to kind of stay local where our family was so they could help us raise her and just have some support, and also so we could figure things out financially. And at the same time this was happening, my cousin and one of my favorite people in the world, she was diagnosed with cancer and she had multiple kids. And so we were really involved with helping her and helping her family. She ended up passing away about a month before my daughter was born. And so I just had this confluence of events where the highest of high of having a new child who we didn't think we could have, and this, I don't know how spiritual people are, but I kind of consider it a miracle after a decade of thinking that it wasn't even possible for us.

Chris Mamula:
And at the same time watching my cousin who kind of did everything right and she was in the process of dying, and then, like I said, she actually passed a month before my daughter was born. And it really kind of made me just question everything and say, you only have one shot at life. And I wanted to be there for my daughter and I still wanted to live this dream of pursuing this outdoor passions I had. And so how could I figure out how to just build a different way of life? And that's what kind of drew me into this FIRE community, and we ended up doing that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First of all, I am so sorry for the loss and I can only imagine how painful that must have been. What changes did it inspire in you specifically? I know we can make a blanket statement, it brought you into the FIRE community, which is Financial Independence Retire Early. But what specifically changed because of the birth of your daughter and then the loss of your cousin?

Chris Mamula:
Yeah. Something we worried about in the book is this idea of having an awakening. The gentleman who kind of, his name is Dominic Quartuccio, who discussed this concept when he was on the Choose FI Podcast. But he talked about how a lot of times we're aware of things. We're all aware that eating a terrible diet is bad for us or smoking is bad for us. Awareness though generally doesn't drive people to change their behavior and you need to have this traumatic incidents to have an awakening. And I think for me, that awakening was just stepping back, and these things that I've been avoiding for the first decade of figuring out my finances and figuring out how to design a different way of life, it was always there. It wasn't like it wasn't out there, but I just never went looking for it. I don't think I was dissatisfied enough, I guess.

Chris Mamula:
And then when I saw, I had my daughter, and I had this opportunity and I watched my cousin pass, and it kind of made me just get serious. And so I went out and I started finding this information, like I said, it was there all along, but until I had the awakening to go pursue change and actually take action, I was just kind of drifting through life. And I was following really bad financial advice because I never questioned anything, I just always assumed that it was too hard for me, and you needed an advisor and I couldn't figure this stuff out. And what I found, it was really quite simple once I took the time to sit down and just devote a few hours to it. But I'd wasted a decade and tens of really hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees and taxes by following bad advice because I never took the time to learn and to become a grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you were married at this time. Tell me about your wife's role in all of this. Was she on board right away? Had this been something that previously had caused friction in your marriage, the financial, maybe just not paying attention to your money?

Chris Mamula:
My wife and I, we were kind of always on the same page financially. A lot of people think that to become wealthy you have to come from wealth, and we were definitely not that story. I think our biggest advantage is both of us came from fairly meager backgrounds financially, and so within a year or two of starting my career as a physical therapist, I just kind of became, I guess I would say disenchanted with the American medical system and I knew I wanted out. And so for me, saving and becoming this dirt bag ski bum, it was just a way of a totally different way of life. It was kind of a way of escape.

Chris Mamula:
For my wife, she came from a similar financial background, but her family struggled a bit more than mine. And for her saving was just safety, so we always saved. We lived off one salary and saved the other, so we were always doing well there. We just never took the time to learn the technical parts. And once we did start learning, I mean, we were able to save 10 to $20,000 a year in unnecessary taxes and fees that we had been paying without losing anything of quality. So it definitely didn't cause any friction, we were on the same page there all along.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give me one example of something that you changed after your daughter was born.

Chris Mamula:
When we started investing, really the only option we had when we started was to use a commissions based advisory, meaning they're paid on commissions for selling you products. And so the advice he gave us was to invest with him because he could have quote better options than we had in our 401k plan. So we bypassed that 401k plan. So just in income taxes every year we were saving enough we could have maxed them out, but we left probably $20,000 on the table, if not more. And at a 25% tax bracket, right there if it's 20,000, that's $5,000 in income taxes. And then you're investing it in a taxable account, so there now you're going to start generating taxes on your investments, which would be protected if they were in that account. So now we're talking about extra taxes there.

Chris Mamula:
And then over time, those fees, because of the account adds up, the fees that are charged on the assets in that account start to add up. So again, it was between 10 to 20,000. I actually broke down in a blog post how much we were paying, and it was 10 or $20,000 a year just for bad advice. And it wasn't like we did this one time where we got ripped off. It kind of made sense. The way he talked, it made sense and we bought into it, and we did this for a decade.

Chris’ Money Lesson:

I think the lesson there is, I think a lot of people, they wait for that cancer diagnosis, the divorce, the death, something like that to kind of shock them into making changes. What I want to kind of convey and what we're trying to convey in the book is that you don't have to wait to have disaster strike to have this awakening. If you have this awareness but then you see that there is a different possibility on the other side and you know which steps to take, you can start to make change on your own. And that's really what we encourage people to do and that's the lesson I would like to convey.

Chris’ Money Tip:

Chris Mamula:
Figure out what is that thing that lines up with your values. And so for us, it was travel. Instead of taking the time and the money to buy things for gifts, we really took that time and applied it to scheduling vacations and to plan vacations. We took some big trips. So again, I think a lot of people think FIRE is an extreme lifestyle where you give up everything. On our path to FIRE we've been to Africa, we climbed Kilimanjaro and did a safari. We've been to Australia and dove the Great Barrier Reef. We've been to the Super Bowl. So we've done a lot of things that we valued. We value experiences and we value time together, so we spend our time on those types of things.

Bobbi Rebell:
Basically spend time together instead of just purchasing items?

Chris Mamula:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well said.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

This may sound a little bit harsh. Okay. Well, I am not part of the Financial Independence Retire Early movement, AKA FIRE. I am a big advocate for not spending your life at a job that makes you unhappy just for the money or the prestige. But I do also want to remind everyone that your dream job, which maybe is doing really good things for people that you feel really good about, is actually not a dream job if it doesn't pay you well enough to live the lifestyle you want. And be honest about the lifestyle that you want, my friends. Give yourself permission to take a job for the money within reason. Don't be totally miserable, don't get me wrong here. But if the money gives you the freedom to do the stuff you want to do outside of work, it's called work for a reason guys. That's okay. Work can be a means to an end, meaning get you to the way that you want to live. Things you love to do but don't pay are called hobbies.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

If you're thinking about or a part of the FIRE movement, I admire your ambition and your drive. I don't have it in me to do the kind of sacrifices that so many of you make. But for the millions of people who are struggling just to pay their bills right now as we go through this historically painful recession, please be gentle on yourselves. Not everyone can save 50, 60, or 80% of their salary, even if you read every book on financial independence and do everything you can to adhere to the FIRE approach. Sometimes just making ends meet is pretty amazing too, so cut yourself a break.

Episode Links:

• Chris’ website - www.caniretireyet.com

• Chris’ book Choose FI: Your Blueprint to Financial Independence

Follow Chris!

• Twitter - @caniretire_yet

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Now that we may be settling in to work from home for the long haul, it’s time to optimize our space and take out the stress so we can function like grownups. Bill Hirsch,  Architect and Author of The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live

5 Easy Ways to Center Your Home on a Small Budget

• Step One - Take the Homebody Quiz

• Step Two - Work to improve the “earth-grounding” of your home. 

• Step Three – Remove the Pebbles. Pebbles are the things that create negative energy and produce emotional irritation and discord.

• Step Four – Add Pearls. These are things that contribute positive energy to your home. 

• Step Five – Arrange furniture throughout the house in ways that provide “private” and peaceful places for individuals to enjoy some solitude.
  

Episode Links:

• Bill’s website - www.wellcenteredhome.com

• Bill’s book The Well-Centered Home; Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live

Follow Bill!

• Instagram - @the.well_centered.home

• Twitter - @williamhirsch2

• Facebook - @centeryourhome

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Some of the most common advice is also the worst. Bobbi and her guest, certified financial planner Roger Ma discuss some popular myths and how investors can protect themselves - and their money- from going down the wrong path. 

4 Myths About Money and Investing

• Myth #1 - Earning a high salary will make you financially secure

• Myth #2 - Renting is throwing your money down the drain

• Myth #3 - Investing is the most important aspect of personal finance

• Myth #4 - Investing is complicated

Episode Links:

• Website - lifelaidout.com

• Roger’s book - Work Your Money, Not Your Life

• Roger’s book is featured in this Business Insider piece - 11 books to help your grow your career during a recession

Follow Roger!

• Twitter handle - @lifelaidout

• LinkedIn - rogermacfp

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Cameron Huddleston wrote her new book “Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk. How to Have Essential Conversations With Your Parents About Their Finances” when she found herself confronted with huge issues after not talking to her mom about her money- which she shares on the podcast. The book hits on a huge issue impacting all generations and all income levels. 

Cameron's money story:

Cameron Huddleston:
Yes. I had moved from Washington DC where I was working for Kiplingers Personal Finance magazine. I had moved to my home state of Kentucky, actually across the street from my mom. I said to her, "Mom, I think you need to look into long-term care insurance." She and my father had divorced years before that, and she was living on her own. I knew that if she had any long-term care needs, it would be helpful to have long-term care insurance to help cover those costs. She took my advice-

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, for people that don't know long-term care insurance is specifically to cover things like a nursing home that you would live in. That kind of thing.

“A big benefit of having a third party involved with these conversations is because your parents might be reluctant to talk to you but they are going to listen to the advice of someone else.”

Cameron Huddleston:
Yes, assisted living, memory care, and in case you don't know this, Medicare does not cover those costs.

Bobbi Rebell:
What's a typical cost of that if somebody or their parents end up having to pay that out of pocket?

Cameron Huddleston:
The average cost of assisted living is about $4,500 a month. That's average. A nursing home is 80-$90,000 a year.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, so you moved back home to across the street from your mom, and you're learning about her situation?

Cameron Huddleston:
Yes. I asked her to check in a long-term care insurance. She took my advice. She met with an insurance agent. Unfortunately, she did not qualify for coverage, because she had another preexisting condition that made her too high risk. At that point I should have said, "Okay mom, you can't get long-term care insurance coverage. Let's look at your financial assets, figure out where you stand, and figure out how we would pay for this care if you needed it."

I can look back and say, that's what I should've said, but I didn't. I didn't even think about it at all. Say being what it is, a few years later, she started having trouble with her memory. At that point, I knew I needed to act quickly and talk to her, but because I was already facing a crisis, if I wanted to start talking to her about money, I would have to explain to her why, "Mom, we need to talk about your finances, because I can see you're having trouble with your memory."

I didn't want to have to be the one to tell her that. I didn't care about talking to her about money. That didn't feel like a taboo topic to me. I didn't want to tell her that I thought she was losing her memory. Eventually, with the help of a doctor actually, I got her doctor to suggest that she get tested for dementia, and he did.

During that process I said, "Mom, I think we need to go meet with your attorney and get all your legal documents updated. Because the thing is you have to be competent, mentally competent to sign a will or a living trust, a power of attorney document, and an advanced healthcare directive. If you are no longer competent, you cannot sign those documents."

Then if you get into a situation like my mother did where she is no longer able to make financial and healthcare decisions on her own, if she had not named me power of attorney and healthcare power of attorney, I would have had to go to court, basically put her on trial to prove that she was no longer competent, spent thousands of dollars to get conservatorship for her. I act too quickly. I knew I had to do this. She was still competent enough. I dodged a bullet, but then I had to figure out her finances while she was already forgetting things, and it was so difficult.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. So how did that work? What did you find?

Cameron Huddleston:
I had to approach it very carefully. I didn't want to look like I was going in and taking over, especially in the early stages of her dementia. I didn't want her to feel like she was losing all of her independence. So I just did things little by little.

One of the benefits of meeting with the attorney was that she suggested that we go to the bank, and put me on her account as her representative payee. That's certainly a big benefit of having a third-party involved with these conversations is because your parents might be reluctant to talk to you, but they're going to listen to the advice of someone else. So the attorney said go to the bank. We took her advice, and then that sort of opened the door to having some more conversations about what role I was going to have to play going forward.

She had all this cash just sitting in her bank account. Fortunately, she had not opened an online account. She was so old fashioned, she never used debit card. She used checks. So I was able to go online and set-up online banking for her and monitor her bank account, because one of the issues that she was having was writing checks to every organization that would send her something in the mail, like organization she had no ties to.

So, I had to make sure she wasn't just spending all her money writing these charitable contribution checks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is something that happens to a lot of seniors.

Cameron Huddleston:
Oh yeah, it's a big problem. Then you've got to worry about scammers and stuff. I decided to take that money and put it into an annuity. Not that you or I would necessarily recommend that everyone get an annuity, but I knew that it would be a safe place to put her money. It would earn some interest, hands off for several years, and then use it down the road when I needed it to pay for her care.

Cameron’s money lesson:

Cameron Huddleston:
The lesson is please don't wait to have these conversations with your parents. A lot of people I talk to and hear from say, "Well, I don't need to have this conversation yet. We're not there yet. Mom and dad are still healthy." That is exactly the time you need to have it. You need to have the conversations when your parents are healthy. There's not a financial crisis, there's not a health crisis, because then everyone is entirely competent. Your parents know what assets they have, what they don't have, what legal documents they have.

“You need to have the conversations when your parents are healthy. There is not a financial crisis. There is not a health crisis. Because then everyone is entirely competent.”

You have time to get those legal documents if they don't have them. Emotions are not running high. There's so many more options available to you. If a crisis does arise, you can make a plan for how they are going to age comfortably. You can't do that if there's already a crisis.

Cameron's everyday money tip:

Cameron Huddleston:
I think I have a pretty good tip. It's something that I have done myself. I set-up alerts with my credit card account. It's so easy. You just log onto your account online. There's usually most credit card companies will have a place where you can click on alerts and notifications. I set it up to get alerts every time my credit card is used. The benefit of this is that it alerts you to fraud, which has happened to me.

“If your parents are counting on your to be their caregiver.. wouldn’t you rather know this now .. because you might have to prepare your own finances”

It was really an unfortunate situation. I was at a visitation for a family member who had died, and my phone, it was like a little ding from the message. I looked at it and it said my credit card had been used. Then I got another ding that it was used again and I was like, "Wait a second, I did not make these charges." I got on the phone, called my credit card company and I said, "I think my credit card number has been stolen. I want you to flag these transactions as fraud and I want to cancel my card." Thank goodness for the alerts. I mean, I knew right away that there was something fishy.

In My Take you will learn:

Financial Grownup tip number one:

Make sure proactive decisions are being made about insurance, not just for yourself and your immediate family, but also for anyone who is what I would call stakeholders in your family financial ecosystem. So everyone whose finances could impact yours, only you can decide if you need and at what amount you may need. For example, life insurance, long-term care insurance, healthcare insurance and so on.

Make sure those decisions are being made for everyone that is tied to you financially, because the decisions made or not made can and in many cases, will impact your life. So make sure that the people you care about have the information and that they're making decisions. Because obviously as we always say, not making a decision is actually making a decision. It's just not one that you are aware of all the time.

Financial Grownup tip number two:

If you don't feel comfortable having these conversations now, this is what you need to do. Go through in your mind and play out how things could go if you don't get this done, if you don't have the conversations, what happens? It may give you some motivation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Read Cameron's book for example of the reality of how this goes. For her, it was not perfect but she dodged a bullet as she says, but she gives some examples that will certainly motivate you because things can go very bad, very fast, very unexpectedly and with a very high price tag. Even what seems like the most basic things can be huge stresses at the worst time. As an example, a relative of mine recently passed, and when we visited her husband a few days later, rather than focusing on his own emotional healing, he was actually stressed out just trying to figure out her passwords. I mean, that's terrible.

Episode Links:

Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

Cameron’s website - www.CameronHuddleston.com

Cameron’s Book - Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk: How to Have Essential Conversations With Your Parents About Their Finances

Follow Cameron!

• Facebook - @CameronHuddlestonMoneyExpert

• Twitter - @CHLebedinsky

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Finepoint CEO Meredith Fineman, author of the new book “Brag Better” shares why learning the right way to brag about yourself is essential to reaching your goals. Then walks us through 10 ways to brag better including how to integrate super power words, avoiding qualifiers, using nightmare questions and how to prepare ahead of time to get the best results. 

10 WAYS TO BRAG BETTER

• Make a list- because facts are facts

• Use super power words

• Consistency as a baseline for success

• Avoid verbal undercutting ex: qualifiers

• Be loud- even if you have to write it down beforehand

• Understand the different between being direct vs being blunt or confrontational

• Avoid intentional invisibility 

• Tap into 4 key elements of a brag: Gratitude, Pride, Presentation + Showmanship

• Consider your audience

• Use a nightmare question

Episode Links:

• Meredith’s website - www.meredithfineman.com

• Meredith’s book Brag Better

Follow Meredith!

• Instagram - @meredithfineman

• Twitter - @MeredithFineman

• LinkedIn - @meredithfineman

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

---

Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends. So does the idea of bragging about yourself make you a little bit cringy, maybe a lot cringy? Now with all of us at home, or at least most of us at home, it can feel even more awkward, but our guest today says we have to do it. We have to make it happen. She is going to tell us the right way to do it and most importantly, a way to do it, that we're going to feel good about.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, a quick welcome to everyone to the Financial Grownup podcast. We have been doing a series of Financial Grownup guide episodes during the Coronavirus quarantine, and this one I think really hits home for all of us who are still at home. The advice offered by our guest author, Meredith Fineman, in her new book, Brag Better, was a total eye-opener to me and probably will be to many of you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Although they are easy to implement, they're not things that we necessarily are doing or know about, so it's a really great tutorial on getting comfortable with bragging. I've been putting a lot of her tips to work already and seeing results. Here is Meredith Fineman.

Bobbi Rebell:
Meredith Fineman, I'm so happy you're here and congratulations on your new book.

Meredith Fineman:
Thank you. I'm very happy to be here. And I wrote a book, I did it and it's done. It's out there.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now you get to talk about it and brag better because the book is actually called Brag Better. Tell us about it.

Meredith Fineman:
I really set myself up in this case because I wrote a book about talking about your work, so by proxy, I'm really just going to have to talk until I'm blue in the face to anyone that will listen, which I already do, but it's going to have to be a little bit more extreme.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you are the queen of the best kind of what I would call self-promotion, but you do it in a way that works. And you've actually been coaching me behind the scenes even before we hit record here.

Bobbi Rebell:
So first of all, I have a to-do list already of things that I need to be working on. You brought for the Financial Grownup community, 10 Ways to Brag Better which of course is as I said, the name of your book, let's start with the first one. And then by the way, everyone hang on to the end because you have a special gift for the audience when we get to the end.

Bobbi Rebell:
The first of 10 ways to Brag Better though is to make a list because facts are facts. Why is that important to remember? Facts are facts.

Meredith Fineman:
Bragging is stating facts. I mean, if you've done the work, why not talk about it? You're not lying about it. So take a pen, do it on your phone, do it on a Google document, send yourself an email of 10 things that you've achieved, no matter how small you might think they are. So a big thing would be like, "I got this award in my industry." But even if it's like, "I killed this presentation or I did really well in this meeting or I pitched someone to be on my podcast that I was afraid to talk to." All of those things are wins and they're true and they're facts, so bragging is stating facts.

Meredith Fineman:
There are lots of different ways to insert it into whatever it is you're doing. You open up your social media and you're like, "I snagged an interview with Meredith Fineman and I'm so excited." Because also I would want to promote that and then there you have cross promotion. So that's a nice thing someone would say to me on the internet, the idea that someone would think that booking me is a big deal, feels really nice. So then I would retweet that or I would reply and say, "I'm so excited to go on." And people might see that and you make another guest out of it, it's just sharing.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Number two, use super power words.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes. So super power words are words to describe your voice and your tone and your brags. But super power words are words that feel like you and feel like how you want to be perceived. So mine-

Bobbi Rebell:
So what are your super powers?

Meredith Fineman:
Yes, mine are funny, thoughtful and helpful. I always love making people laugh and making sure this isn't so boring and feels so much work, and thoughtful, that I've taken almost a decade, developing this concept and thinking about how I want to share it.

Meredith Fineman:
And then helpful helping people brag better. And in this case, those three things are words I think back to, whenever I think about sharing something or doing an interview or writing something.

Bobbi Rebell:
And one of the things that I loved about the book is you then have, I was trying to think of the words for myself and I was drawing a blank. I turned the page and you had a whole list of words that I could kind of circle which ones I thought applied to me. And you also give people permission to change those words as you go through life.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I thought of supportive. I try to be supportive of not just my friends, but also peers in the business. Polished because I always try to appear polished and be polished for my clients and anyone that I interact with in business, and also professional, which is also very important in this time we're in with this quarantine is to remain professional when you are working. So those are mine right now that I pulled from your list, but they can change.

Meredith Fineman:
And you don't have to be married to them. I've gone through lots of different 'voices' in terms of how I've written or the work that I've done. And it will probably also change, but it's grounding to just at least narrow it down to three things. And there is a list in the book of all different adjectives that you can use that hopefully will help you focus the way you talk about yourself.

Bobbi Rebell:
Next thing. Number three, consistency as a baseline for success. Tell me more about that.

Meredith Fineman:
I'm a PR person. This book stems from basically using the habits of publicists, pitching, packaging, getting what you want only by asking without exchanging money, earned media, that's what earned media is.

Meredith Fineman:
This idea of breaking through the noise and that is just absolute consistency of message. You have to tell people what you're going to tell them, you have to tell it to them, you tell them what you're going to told them. It's a journalism adage that I traced back to a preacher in the 19th century.

Meredith Fineman:
But basically, you just have to hit people over the head with your message because you have to be incredibly consistent with it. We all walk around in our own heads with what we've done and many people will come up to me and talk to me about work I did a decade ago and have no idea that I work on bragging. It's wild to me and I cannot believe that.

Meredith Fineman:
And it's just drills home that you have to consistently tell people what you're up to because every single audience is different. You might feel like you're talking about it all the time, you might feel like you're sharing it all the time on social media, but the shelf life of a tweet is an hour. Every single time, different eyeballs are on something or you're in a different group of people. It's never, ever, ever the exact same audience.

Meredith Fineman:
And that consistency also builds up online for someone to be able to tell who you are and what you want in 30 seconds or under, otherwise they're going to move on.

Bobbi Rebell:
The next thing is something that I do that you are helping me get over and it is avoid verbal undercutting. For example, qualifiers.

Meredith Fineman:
Yeah. So shooting down your message before someone else can, whether it's, "I hate to brag, but, or, Oh yeah, I've just got to plug this." Just do it. You don't have to tell people you're doing it. And the problem is when you tell people you're doing it, it highlights your insecurities or fears or anxieties and that translates to the person that you're talking to or writing to or speaking to.

Meredith Fineman:
So what it tells me immediately, and that anxiety transfers to me, because I'm like, well, that person feels weird about sharing this thing, so then I feel weird about sharing this thing, and instead of it being an opportunity for me to share something for you or not even share, also revel in that joy of doing something with you instead, it actually isolates you and drive someone away, but also doesn't allow them to help you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Excellent point. The next thing is be loud, and one of the tips you give people, if they're not sure how to do this is to write things down beforehand, so they can feel more prepared.

Meredith Fineman:
Yeah. Everyone's always like, "I don't want to have my notes with me. People might think that X, Y, and Z." And I'm just like, "You only look more prepared." And I bring note cards up on stages, I give tons of speeches. It makes me feel better, it makes me a better speaker, and I felt bad about it for a while, but then I realized I'm never like watching a speaker and if they have note cards being like, "Man, they have note cards." Nobody cares.

Meredith Fineman:
First of all, nobody cares. But second of all, even I've coached people to bring their questions written down on a piece of paper to a meeting. People don't know what's on that. They can't see it, it just looks like you have your work together and that you know what you're going to say. And even for extremely powerful people, I've written out verbatim like, "Hi, my name is so and so." Sometimes you need that, and you probably don't need it, but if it makes you feel better, go for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I find that what I do whenever I'm giving a speech, I take a copy of the script and I actually put it underneath the seat that I'm going to be sitting in. I have never once used it Meredith, but knowing it's there gives me so much confidence that if whatever things go down, if the teleprompter goes down or I lose my phone connection, if I have some notes in my phone, there's always a physical hard copy, literally under the seat cushion for me. If I needed it, and it's just, it's really a psychological thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the next one's kind of a followup to this and that's about understanding the difference between being direct versus being blunt and confrontational. It's okay to be direct, it's good to be direct.

Meredith Fineman:
We're recording some quarantine right now, but directness and being explicit is so important because we can't physically be together. We'll see, whether or not that's the case. And I mean, either way, it will transform the way we work and think about the future. And there are so many different virtual tools that will continue.

Meredith Fineman:
So yes, there's nothing wrong with being direct. For women, it often can be perceived as angry or rude or nasty and those are just gendered sexist layers. But of course you're not necessarily prime to be able to be direct, but it honestly just gives everyone a lot of time once you start doing it.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Number seven, tap into four key elements of brag. So I kind of wrap these into one. Gratitude, pride, presentation, and showmanship.

Meredith Fineman:
So in constructing a brag, which is sharing an accomplishment, sharing a fact, that's all it is. It just happens to have this word on it, which is the only word we have, which is why I use this word, in addition to it also getting people's attention.

Meredith Fineman:
So when I think about what makes a good share, let's call it. There are elements that can make you feel more comfortable. So there, we talked a little bit earlier about verbal undercutting. There are things to go for instead of shooting yourself down, and those things are gratitude, pride, presentation, and showmanship.

Meredith Fineman:
So let's say that I gave a talk that I'm proud of. Gratitude. "I was so honored to be a part of this panel, you would love it if you took a look at this video." Pride, "So thrilled to have been on this panel, like I can't believe I was asked to do it. And I'm so excited about it." Presentation, "Check out this panel I was a part of, I clipped it down to two minutes."

Meredith Fineman:
For Instagram one minute, I think they'll allow you. So the thing about how you present something in a way that's your reader or watcher, listener, audience can digest it.

Meredith Fineman:
Showmanship, is adding flare, adding personality, adding spice. If we're still sticking to an Instagram video, "Like check out this talk I gave. Like here's one minute where I thought I did a slam dunk. Hopefully you agree." And something else punchy, that's totally up to you. That's totally style contingent.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those are all very deliberate and things that you can think about and really put your best foot forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Number eight, consider your audience.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes. You got to work backwards. What do you want? What kind of visibility do you want? And when I say visibility, that might mean recognition from your boss, that might mean recognition in money. That might mean a raise, that might mean fundraising. That might mean recognition on television. Those can mean all different things, but if you are someone who wants to be on TV, more, having a popular podcast isn't going to help a TV booker want to book you because they care about what you look like and how you appear on television, if you've done it before and what your talking points are, a completely different medium.

Meredith Fineman:
So you need to be doing video, you need to make it abundantly clear that you want to be on TV. If you've been on TV before you need to list those links, you need to make a reel. You need to have up to date headshots and show that you can do that really well, so that a booker will potentially take a chance on you.

Meredith Fineman:
So where does your audience live? That's an extreme example. But thinking about-

Bobbi Rebell:
But you've been doing that with the book, even now. You've been actually demonstrating that in your plan to promote your book.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes, and reaching out to everyone I've ever known, but yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
But you're also being very thoughtful to reach out maybe in the strongest way to people that would be the most supportive of the book and then have the audiences that are going to be most interested in the book.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes. And in thinking about promoting Brag Better, there's a lot of different prongs to this approach. It's about people that love me and care about also elevating my voice. A huge part of Brag Better is bragging for others and passing that microphone. It's not just about you at all.

Meredith Fineman:
So my asking people to promote me is actually pretty scary, since I'm the one always doing all the promotion myself. Also, thinking about outlets where this would really apply and where this would really add to people's experiences versus just sell books or get eyeballs. That's good too, but I care about impact.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. The next one is for people that kind of get a little scared sometimes, and that is to use a nightmare question.

Meredith Fineman:
So I go into this in depth in the book, but the nightmare question is, I do this with every client that I counsel and ask them, "What is the absolute worst thing a conference organizer, journalist, booker, recruiter could say to you or ask you? Like what is something so off the walls, but it's basically just encapsulates your anxieties."

Meredith Fineman:
Let's try in this case. It's like, "Have you ever considered that this book is a piece of abject garbage and nobody will read it. And it's not necessary, and you just sort of made a fool of yourself."

Meredith Fineman:
Now that's deranged. First of all, nobody's ever going to ask me that and then you cook up an answer for it. And I say, "Well, no, actually I'm really proud of this book. I worked really hard on it. I do think it's needed. I do think there's an audience for it. And I'm not really open to your judgments at this time."

Meredith Fineman:
Now, I still feel those scary feelings of inadequacy and putting out a piece of art into the world and what people are going to say. It's a really scary thing to do. But that idea of a nightmare question is just something that nobody's ever going to ask you.

Meredith Fineman:
But what is that one deep dark thing you torture yourself with at three o'clock in the morning and bringing it into the light and answering it and having a canned answer. But if anyone asks you your nightmare question ever, I'll be like, "I'll give you a refund." Which I can't legally do, but I'll try.

Bobbi Rebell:
You'll figure out a way. And speaking of what you're going to give to your readers. Number 10 is actually working from home and bragging better. And you have a special something coming out for that.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes. Who could have predicted, I mean, virologists or epidemiologists or scientists could have predicted coronavirus, but I mean, publishing and putting out a book in this time is pretty wild. And I realized very, very quickly that I needed to write an extra chapter about bragging better from home and bragging better online, because we can't get in front of people, and that is a huge part of bragging and a huge part of business.

Meredith Fineman:
And so many different industries are impacted in job search, and there's just so much going on. So it didn't make it into the book, but bragging better from home and online will be released to the public in the coming weeks. And I'm also recording an audio version, so you can listen to it too, if you're taking a quarantine walk, because it has to be said.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is your number one tip from there? Give us a sneak peek.

Meredith Fineman:
I'll give a tip, but first acknowledging everybody's having to shift everything and there are a lot of conversations about whether or not, I mean, you can do nothing in this time, but I personally feel empowered by productivity and empowered by being given things to do that will make an impact.

Meredith Fineman:
I would say the tip is now is not the time to necessarily break through with your message, but it is a time where the world feels like it's on pause in a lot of different ways, and it's a really great time and I don't know if we will ever get time like this again. And for some people, I have the luxury of time, that's a privilege and if you're not an essential worker and et cetera, et cetera, now is a really great time to take stock of what you are putting out, to take a second and think about starting a personal website, to take a second and look at your email signature, because we don't normally have time to do those things and it is an overall reflective time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Great advice. Tell us where people can find out more about you. We know the book is going to be everywhere and they can order it online and all the places.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes, it will.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where can people find out more about you and all of your different, your business, your book, your podcast, all the things, Meredith.

Meredith Fineman:
All the things that I love doing and stuff. You can find me online at meredithfineman.com. That has links, everything about the book. The book has its own website, brag-better.com. Please for the love of God buy this book, so that I can continue to wear designer discount resale clothing.

Meredith Fineman:
You can buy the book from, the big guy or small indie shops. I have a podcast called It Never Gets Old, ingopodcast.com and all those different things on all the social media is at MeredithFineman, but I would say my Instagram is where I spend a lot of my time, which is just at MeredithFineman, where all my good memes are.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Meredith Fineman:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
So cool that Meredith added that extra chapter about working from home and how to brag better in this new situation we're all in.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're going to leave a link to it in the show notes, so you guys can all download it for free. I got an early copy by the way of the book and it is the perfect read to get re-motivated as we move into what I hope is a reopening phase of the pandemic. Let me know how you brag better. DM me on Instagram at BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter at BobbiRebel.

Bobbi Rebell:
Get on my grownup list. It is free, I would love to have you. We share lots of tips about how to live a grownup life. Go to my website, Bobbirebel.com to do that.

Mekanism CEO Jason Harris has always prioritized face to face human interaction. But since that’s not an option, he has found specific ways to re-create that experience online, and is getting results. Jason shares them, along with how strategies from his bestselling book The Soulful Art of Persuasion can be adapted to the evolving work from home culture. 

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get into some of your strategies from The Soulful Art of Persuasion, and how we can apply them to what so many of us are experiencing right now. Now, you break it down into four areas. The first one, you really like to talk about being original. How does that apply to what's going on now, and how can people leverage that concept?

Jason Harris:
Yeah. So I think that this concept applies in a pandemic, in a shelter-in-place, or not. But the idea of being original is really about showing some psychic skin, being vulnerable, being yourself, not doing the typical sales beliefs that you typically hear, which is mirror and matching your audience, or trying to find common interests to make them like you so that you build a relationship, so you can create a transaction.

Jason Harris:
It's really about being strong enough to be vulnerable and putting yourself out there so that somebody learns your idiosyncrasies and what makes you tick, so that they will do the same and share with you. That creates a bond. So it goes against conventional selling wisdom of mirror and matching your audience, and it's really about leaning into who you are and being yourself. So that's really fundamental to persuasion.

Bobbi Rebell:
So can you give us an example of how that would be applied in this environment?

Jason Harris:
So how it might be applied in this environment is really trying to think of telling the story. So when you might be on a Zoom or Skype, or what have you, with a new client, or an existing client that you have a relationship with, try to think of telling a story, an original story about your experience. It could be good or bad, it could be something good that happened, it could be a challenge that you had to overcome.

Jason Harris:
Try to avoid just doing the typical, "Yeah, it's hard. I can't wait to when we get back. Nobody knows anything. What do you think of Fauci?" Really try to relay a personal experience or an antidote that will get the other person, over video, to open up to you and create more of a collaboration or a bond. But that takes preparation and thinking through a story that you want to talk about versus just hopping on and saying, "How are you? I'm fine." So that's one way you can do it.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you'd have to build in the time for that and maybe have something prepared, like a funny anecdote prepared, something you did with your kids or something going on somewhere else that's interesting.

Jason Harris:
Yeah, exactly. For an example, I tell a story, my kids are in California and I'm in New York during this. I might get on and say, "It's been hard FaceTiming with my kids and we needed to create something, so we do an hour a day and we're writing a children's book together. We go around and each session ... I have two boys. One of us leads the story and we're writing the story that way, and that's a way for us to bond because I'm missing my kids and I'm missing an experience. So I'm creating an experience through this with them." And so that might be a story that I would tell that someone would remember, and then they might share an interesting story or some hard thing that they're going through and how they're getting through it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing that you talk about is generosity, being generous. Can you talk about how that applies, maybe with like online etiquette and how we behave online?

Jason Harris:
Sure. So generosity, the basic ... That's principle number two, and the basic principle there is giving something away without expecting anything in return. And that can be advice, it could be stuff, it can be your time, it could be an article that you found. One way I do this during this time, is instead of thinking of broadcasting ... You might post something on Instagram or one of your social platforms, and broadcasting it out to all of your followers at once with something that you're saying. What I try to do during this time, is think about people that I'm trying to connect with. It could be personal, it could be professional, it could be past clients, clients I'm trying to attract. I think of an interesting article that I found online that I can email or text them directly, that would apply to them, instead of just putting myself out there to all the followers and not making it a one-to-one connection.

Jason Harris:
So during this time I'm thinking of one-to-one connections that make people when they might have anxiety, or they're at home, or they're bored, know that I'm thinking about them. I do that simply through an email or a text. Something that I know is of interest to them, I'll send them a thought. Or I'll do a little search on, if my client is in the dating app business, I might find an interesting survey and text it to them, even though we're not necessarily talking about work. And it just says, "Hey, I'm thinking about you." So that's one way I apply ... That's, to me, an act of generosity, because you're creating a one-to-one connection.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also talk about, in the book, how to survive a social catastrophe in terms of especially online connections. How do you do that? What could happen? What kinds of things have you observed happening or heard about happening and what can people do?

Jason Harris:
During this time I don't know if I've necessarily heard of more catastrophes, but how to recover from a social catastrophe, I always think about Watergate, I think about Richard Nixon. The famous quote from that time was, "It's not the crime, it's the cover up." And you think about Bill Clinton, it's the same thing. It's not necessarily what he did, of course, what he did was strange and odd and off with Monica Lewinsky, but it's the fact ... It was the cover up, the fact that he said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." It's the fact that Richard Nixon denied that he was breaking into Watergate to steal documents.

Jason Harris:
I think that is the biggest thing. It's really, if you do do a mistake online, you have to be honest with yourself that you did it. You have to look at why you did it, what was behind the idea, so that you can then simply come out and apologize. So it's really ... That's one way, when you do something that you shouldn't have, you have to explain why, and then apologize quickly for it. And when you let it drag on or you deny it, it all comes out in the end, and that's when you get in deep trouble.

Bobbi Rebell:
The third principle you talk about is about being empathetic.

Jason Harris:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
How does that apply these days? I mean, it has to do a lot with the way that you communicate, especially in these times when it's a little bit awkward for many people. Not everyone is so comfortable here, and you have to collaborate with people in this new setting that is very unnatural and clunky sometimes.

Jason Harris:
It is clunky. Yes, it is. One thing that you pulled out from the book is this idea of collaboration, and that it's really important to collaborate. If you want to persuade people, you have to think of interest, not of reason. So you have to think of what makes that person tick, what's behind that person. Not logic and facts and data to convince them. It has to be about something that they would care about to get them on your side.

Jason Harris:
And so back to I'm trying to convince an ad campaign that we're trying to develop, I have to convince people on the team why we want to do this campaign versus the other campaign. So I have to think about what elements that they might like or what a client might like, or what would appeal to the brief that the client sent me, and try to make them feel like they are creating it with us or with me. So if someone feels like they're on your side, the chances to persuade them jump dramatically. If they feel like they have an idea and you have an idea and you're on different sides, then it's going to be very hard to persuade them.

Jason Harris:
And so for people doing work at this time, I'd recommend if you're working with a client, doing multiple check-ins to get to whatever you're trying to sell or present, or get them to buy off on or persuade them on, so that they're building the idea or the concept, or whatever, the sponsorship, whatever it might be, they're building that with you because you're doing multiple touch points, which are even more important when we're doing everything over video. So collaboration is really a critical element to selling.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's challenging because I mean, you've talked about it in your book, that it's really important to get in front of a client to show them, make the trip, travel around the world, to see them in person. That doesn't happen anymore. So it's interesting that you're saying now it's the frequency of the touch points is a really important thing.

Jason Harris:
Yeah. That's a good recall on the book. That's impressive. But yes, I mean the in person persuasion and selling to create your business is kind of everything. And so that in person touch about being with them, when you take that away, the only replacement is to see them more often and frequently because you can't be in person with them. It's not I'm going to go away for two weeks and then come back and present you this huge deck. It's about doing multiple check-ins. It takes more work quite frankly, to do that, but they're going to feel like they're bought in with you and they're collaborating with you, and your chances of persuading them, whatever it is that, whatever your business is, will go dramatically up.

Bobbi Rebell:
The final principle that you talk about in the book is soulful, and it also obviously lends itself to the title. This, to me, is the hardest thing to communicate and to be successful at, given the tools that we have right now. I mean, how does that translate to the way that we're working now and the way that we're communicating, not just a business, but with friends and family as well?

Jason Harris:
Yeah, that is the hardest thing to do right now. The final principle of soulful, the concept behind it is really that whatever skill you have, whatever you're doing, you need to also add a layer of purpose, something that's greater than yourself, where you can become an inspirational person. And so for me, it's using my advertising powers to do social good campaigns, do pro bono campaigns, because that's inspirational and that's persuasive, and that's doing more than just thinking about profit and being transactional. It's doing something bigger and better for the world.

Jason Harris:
Anyone can really apply that principle in whatever skill that you have, but during this time, you really have to figure out how to do that in a way that ... You're working hard and everything's more challenging, but how can you do that in a simple way? So an idea might be that if you're a financial expert, you might find a group that really could use, Bobbi, the books that you wrote, and you would donate those books. Or maybe you'll do a reading to an online class about some of the principles in your book or a story that you might find. You'll just do that for free, for goodwill, to get people talking. And maybe you name that thing that you're doing to educate students or to the financially insecure or unstable. Maybe you're helping them with some techniques or are doing some storytelling. Maybe you do that half hour a week, and people can do a live webinar and tune in for free.

Jason Harris:
But whatever your skill is, apply that to do something that's good and it'll make you feel good. It'll make you a more persuasive person because it shows that you truly don't just care about your own business, but you care about the greater world. And that inspiration will make you a more influential person.

Episode Links:

• Jason's website - www.thesoulfulart.com and mekanism.com

Follow Jason!

• Instagram - @jason_harris

• Twitter - @jason_harris

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

A lot of us feel squeamish about selling but even movie stars have to sell their work. Ash Ambirge, author of The Middle Finger Project: Trash Your Imposter Syndrome and Live the Unf*ckwithable Life You Deserve shares her story of getting inspired by Brad Pitt to get past her fears and succeed at selling.

Ash’s Money Story:

Ash Ambirge:
When I was watching TV one day from my apartment in Santiago, Chile, where I was living at the time, an ad for Brad Pitt's new movie popped onto the TV. And there, this guy is like giving this big interview. He's all over the place. He's really excited about his new movie. He's telling Oprah or whoever, Ellen at the time, all about this thing that was coming up. And I looked at him and I thought, "Oh my God, even people like Brad Pitt need to promote their stuff. He's not exempt from this either. And look at him doing a fine and eloquent job."

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you translate that to yourself?

Ash Ambirge:
Yeah. So when you see Brad Pitt standing up and saying, "Hey everybody, so my new movie comes out on March 3rd and here's what it's about and I really hope you guys show up," you realize that the key to selling has nothing to do with selling, it has everything to do with enthusiasm. Brad Pitt was enthusiastic about his movie and I wanted to feel that way too about the stuff that I was selling.

Ash Ambirge:
And so I started switching my approach. Every single thing that I was doing, whether it was an event or not, I started telling everyone about with the utmost enthusiasm. Because when I believed in the things that I was creating and making, other people automatically felt like they could believe in it too. And it created this chain reaction. And a part of that was also understanding that I could no longer sell the things that I wasn't really enthusiastic about.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. So true, and yet we don't always really process things that way.

“Selling is always helping”

Ash’s Money Lesson:

Bobbi Rebell:
what is the lesson for our listeners from that story? How can people make it their own?

Ash Ambirge:
Whenever you go into any interaction, and it doesn't matter if you're an employee or you are a freelancer, you have to approach it from the perspective of an advisor. This is what I look at now and it's like, "Okay, hey person. Yes, I'm really excited. Here's the stuff that I'm doing. Here's how I think it could help you." Talk to them about what you actually have to offer in the most brightest and brilliant way you can muster, as opposed to looking at it like, oh, I'm just a lowly employee or a lowly freelancer and I'm here just to kind of take orders from people and wait and hope that they give me their money and hope that they see that I'm actually awesome.

Ash Ambirge:
Instead, you have to look at it like you're an advisor and you are here to just be the most enthusiastic you can about this thing that you are selling. And when you approach it with enthusiasm and like, "Hey, I'm just here to help, let's talk about how I can help you," it changes everything from feeling ick and salesy, to being like, "Oh my gosh, this person is my guardian angel. I'm so excited that their here." They will be thrilled to hear from you.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that shift in mindset is key because people can tell when you're selling versus helping them. There's a difference.

Ash Ambirge:
Yeah. Oh yeah. And that's it, selling is always helping. We always feel like we're bothering people, but if you genuinely set out to help somebody, it doesn't even matter if you're just great at makeup, if you are great at finances, whatever the thing is that you're great at, that's all you're doing. You're showing up and being like, "Hey, do you need my help?" That's it. It's simple. "Hey, do you want my help? I have this thing for sale. You can totally buy it. Let's do it."

“Enthusiasm is the greatest pitch there is”

Ash’s Money Tip:

Ash Ambirge:
It does have to do with hot dogs and Jersey. It's called the hot dog theory of money. The hot dog theory of money is to help you anytime you get all scared and intimidated when you are sitting there in your boss's office, or you are asking a client to give you more money, A, because hotdogs are hilarious, and B, because they really do simplify this and make it way less scary.

Ash Ambirge:
So if you were a vendor on the Jersey shore and you're out there selling hot dogs, and some guy comes up to you and is like, "Yo man, hey, how much for a hot dog," you are not going to hm and haw and get all nervous about stating the price of the hotdog, you're not going to say, "Well, since it's the first time that you're here, maybe we could work out a deal," or, I don't know, "Did you have a budget in mind for how much you wanted to spend?" None of that, because we understand intuitively that if we're actually a vendor selling a hotdog on the Jersey shore, the price is the price is the price for a reason. It includes all of the manufacturing costs, it includes the delivery, it includes the packaging, the branding, it includes my time sitting there just selling these hotdogs, and whatever other costs are involved.

Ash Ambirge:
And it also is going to include the person who owns the company. It's going to include their profit, and we never ever factor in our own profit and our own worth when it comes to asking for money. So, the next time you have to ask for it, think about it. You are just stating the price of a hot dog. That's it. This is what it costs, would you like to buy it?

Bobbi Rebell:
That just makes so much sense. And that's something that really was a huge turning point in your business because you were making mistakes early on, and then by having that mentality, you started to have firm prices and it changed everything.

Ash Ambirge:
It did. I used to work in advertising before I became a freelancer, and one of the things I learned from that was they would send us out with rate cards and the rate was the rate was the rate for the magazine. And it was very straight forward. So I adopted that posture when I walked into meetings with my own clients now and just said, "Hey, so here's how much it costs. Here's what it includes." It's so much less complicated than we make it in our heads. The price is the price is the price for a reason and that includes every single thing about you that you're bringing to the table, from your enthusiasm about your stuff, to the way that you package it, to all the stuff that you know. I mean, it is so worth it, but sometimes we may seem way harder than it is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, it's hard because we can be insecure about our own self-worth. And your book, one of the many things that I love about it is there's so much in there that can give us the confidence to be more secure and to be stronger in negotiations, and also in advocating for ourselves and for our businesses. One of my favorite quotes in the book, there's so many, but anyway, one of them is, "If you build it, they will come is basically for a jelly donut to magically appear in your hand."

Ash Ambirge:
Okay. Seriously. I mean, and for my listeners, this is the kind of stuff, but you're making a real point. It's just not going to happen if you just think they're going to come because you built it, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah.

Ash Ambirge:
But the key really goes back to enthusiasm. Like when you are enthusiastic about the thing you're selling, even if it's yourself and your talents, then great. And it just shows up naturally and you don't have to put all of this weird professionalism around it and all this weird like anxiety that happens. Like you're just there to help everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
And speaking of that, one of my favorite quotes is, "Enthusiasm is the greatest pitch there is," because of just what you said. If you love something and you believe in it and you believe that it's going to help the person who might potentially buy it, that's a much stronger sell.

Ash Ambirge:
It's a much stronger sale. And I've sold myself to companies that way as an employee and as a freelancer, no matter what it is. That's what they love about working with people because no one ever hired anyone to be unhelpful, right? So if you can demonstrate that you are here to legitimately help them, that's wonderful. And then they can figure out how to teach you the on the job stuff that they need to know. Enthusiasm is so underrated.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And a lot of us get tempted to offer to do things for free just to prove ourselves. But another one of the quotes that I love is, "Charging money is a sign they can take your offer seriously."

Ash Ambirge:
Yes. And so is showing up consistently for yourself in whatever form, and following up with those clients in some kind of a very systematic way shows them that you take their business seriously and they can trust you. Because there's nothing worse than some guy who's like, "Hey I can help you with your SEO for your website." And then he's like, "Hey, just give me admin access to your site," and doesn't do any kind of like contract or have any kind of process. Having those processes in place and actually sending out those kinds of things and charging fair good money is a sign the client can trust you.

“Charging good, fair money is a sign the client can trust you”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

You can find inspiration everywhere. Brad Pitt, not the first person you think of when it comes to business necessarily, and he didn't come from a privileged background. Brad Pitt did not go to a fancy college and he isn't even officially in the sales business, except he is, and to a large degree, we all are. Even if you are just even applying for a new job or trying to get a new client, you're selling yourself as a solution to their problem. That's the job to fill.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

With all of us working from home these days, there is a temptation to go super casual. And in some cases, that can work, but Ash talks about processes, having set prices and being professional, running a business, a professional business. People take you seriously then. Let's not forget that you still need to be on time. You still need to look neat and professional, even if it's a little bit more casual. You want to follow up efficiently just like you would if you were getting up and going to an office. If you want somebody to give you money, don't forget her advice. You need to be enthusiastic, even as hard as it may be with everything going on these days.

Episode Links:

• Ash’s website - www.themiddlefingerproject.org

• Ash’s Book - The Middle Finger Project

Follow Ash!

• Twitter - @TMFproject

• Facebook - @TMFproject

• Instagram - @the.middle.finger.project

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Being wealthy is often a state of mind. Learn how to gain perspective and feel rich- no matter what your bank account says from Entrepreneur, New York Times best-selling author and Side Hustle School podcast host Chris Guillebeau. Plus a preview of his latest book: The Money Tree. 

Chris’ Money Story:

Chris Guillebeau:
Yes, a tour of the culinary landscape. Six year old Chris, when people would ask me, "What do you want to do when you grow up?" Other people were like, "I want to be the president. I want to be a basketball player," and at the age of six Burger King was my favorite restaurant. My parents were split up. My dad would pick me up on Wednesdays and go to Burger King. So I would say I want to work at Burger King, and I thought it would be like the greatest place in the world.

Chris Guillebeau:
So obviously I grew up, and I realized, "Okay, not the greatest place to work," but even as a teenager I kept eating there. Because that was the habit of the time. I thought, "One day if I have enough money to be able to go and eat at Burger King or whatever fast food place every day, then I will be rich. Then I'll be well off. I don't have to think about it. I can just go. If I want to get an extra apple pie," whatever it is.

Chris Guillebeau:
Then of course I kind of grow up and do other stuff. I was an aid worker for four years in West Africa. I'd always kind of worked for myself from the age of 19; I'd learned various little entrepreneurial projects selling things online and such. So I did the aid worker stuff, and then I had a project of going to every country in the world, started blogging about it. It turned into this whole unexpected author career and so on.

Chris Guillebeau:
At a certain point, I realized there was this moment when I was traveling in Hong Kong, which is one of my favorite places in the world, and I was at the W Hotel. Because of my hotel status, because I stay in hotels all the time, they give me free breakfast. It's a very elaborate breakfast, incredible buffet, and they also cook things to order and such. The price, if you have to pay for it, is like $35 or something.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a lot for breakfast.

Chris Guillebeau:
It is a lot for breakfast, you know? I remember sitting there and thinking, "Okay [inaudible 00:05:17]. It's a lot for breakfast for sure. I'm glad I don't have to pay for it, but you know what? If I did have to pay for it, then I could." I could pay for it, and I would say, "Oh, you know what? That's an expensive breakfast," but I would still be able to pay for it. I thought, "This is how I know that I've made it," essentially. The fact that if I want to have a nice breakfast, I can do so.

Chris Guillebeau:
I thought about that a lot because if you understand for yourself what makes you feel well off, what makes you feel rich, maybe you realize that that thing is not as inaccessible as you thought. Especially if it is something that's somewhat obtainable. So it just helped me have some perspective as I've traveled and done different things throughout my life since.

Bobbi Rebell:
It sounds like throughout your life you have goals, but it's also okay for those goals and aspirations to adjust to where you are. They do change.

Chris Guillebeau:
Of course. Absolutely. I think people sometimes hold off on setting a big goal or making a commitment because of that fear of change. Because they think, "Well, what if I change my mind?" I always think, "Well, if you change your mind then you change your mind." You change your mind because you get experience, because you learn, you gain wisdom. And so maybe you realize the other thing that I wanted to do is a little bit different, or maybe that was the thing I wanted to do for a while, and that was fine. But now because of what I've learned and experienced, I want to do something different. But if you don't commit in the first place and pursue that goal, then you'll never get to that spot.

Bobbi Rebell:
It almost reminds me of when we all have sort of that number in our head that's sort of our safety number where I'll feel secure at this number. It's always changing.

Chris Guillebeau:
Right. That's like a whole different thing. Right? Because it always goes up. It never goes down, does it? You know what I mean?

Bobbi Rebell:
No, it never does go down.

Chris Guillebeau:
Right. So that's why it's like you have to really think about not just what is the number but, "What is the life that I want to have? How do I create that life?" Because ultimately, there's always somebody with more money or whatever the metric is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly. The metrics change, basically. What you perceive as someone that's wealthy is going to change. But there's always going to be, in my mind, someone who is wealthier than you.

Chris Guillebeau:
Of course. Well, there always will be in reality. Not just in your mind. That leads to a whole other thing about, "What is happiness? What is purpose? Why are we doing all this stuff?" Of course we want to make more money, but it ultimately needs to be grounded to a greater purpose or else we won't actually be that happy.

“You have to really think about not just what is the number but what is the life that I want to have. How do I create that life? Because ultimately there is always somebody with more money or whatever the metric is.”

Chris’ Money Lesson:

Chris Guillebeau:
I think maybe it comes down to knowing yourself, knowing yourself and what are your goals. What are you working towards? What is important to you, and how are you going to make that happen? And how are you going to, as we said earlier, adjust as you go along and be willing to change your mind. I'm a work in progress like everybody, but I just keep doing stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly. And it's okay to course correct. We're all human, we all change. Circumstances change, and it's okay for our goals and aspirations to change. But one thing that I think we will agree on is many people could always use an extra few bucks, and that's one of the things that you cover in The Money Tree, including a challenge. We're going to do a little bit of a spoiler. One of the characters is challenged by a mentor to make $1,000 in a week, which is extreme.

“The number one thing is not so much cutting back. It is increasing your income. ”

Chris’ Money Tip:

Chris Guillebeau:
My philosophy, and what I'm trying to teach with the book, is you can have a good job and still be under the water. You can still be struggling. Especially if you have debt. So many people have debt related to student loans, or credit cards, or all kinds of things. So you can be a hard worker, but you're not actually going to get ahead just through budget, or just through being frugal, or cutting back on your lattes or whatever.

Chris Guillebeau:
The number one thing I think most people need to do, especially young people coming into the job market for the first time but really anyone who's struggling, the number one thing is not so much cutting back, it's increasing your income. And so that's why in the book, the story of the guy Jake who is a hard worker, has a good job, but struggling with debt. It's affecting the whole rest of his life, his relationships, his job, and so on. So he gets this challenge, "Okay Jake, make $1,000 in the next week."

Chris Guillebeau:
At first he's like, "Well, if I knew how to do that I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in now." Essentially what he learns to do, at least at first, is the art of reselling, buying and reselling stuff. He begins with selling stuff that's just in his closet, basically his economics textbook from college. This is what I did 21 years ago, if I go back to the dark ages of my self employment history. I sold stuff on eBay. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have a degree in that. It's like I had a degree in sociology.

Chris Guillebeau:
Just selling things online, learning to buy stuff from a flea market, or a yard sale, or from another online source. Then selling it somewhere else like this arbitrage effect. It felt so, so empowering to me. I kind of recreated that in the story The Money Tree as like this guy has to buy and resell $1,000 worth of items over the next week, and then from there he learns and goes on to do other stuff.

Chris Guillebeau:
I think this is like ... It's not like everybody should go out and become a professional reseller. I'm not saying that, but if you're looking for something that's practical. If you're looking for like, "Oh, I need to actually make money next week. I need to actually do something in a very short period of time," then I think that's a good path to look at. Maybe from there, you'll get some confidence, you'll get some experience to go on to do something bigger and better from there.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Bobbi Rebell:
adapting the definition of wealthy for yourself is part of becoming a financial grownup, and going through different life phases, and it's okay for your lifestyle to change as you go through those life stages. So for example, I remember my first full-time paycheck as a news associate at CNBC right out of college, first real full full-time job. I'd been making minimum wage, part-time jobs, and so on, but now I had a big paycheck, full-time. I felt so rich for about a minute. Just like Chris, as I moved up and got raises, my lifestyle changes, my expectations for what I wanted to buy changed, and so did my definition of feeling rich. That's perfectly normal.

Bobbi Rebell:
Look, there are a lot of people that will tell you, "Don't upgrade your lifestyle at all," but that's not always realistic. There's some happy medium there. At least, that's what I think. So it's also good to do what Chris does and remember how little it took to feel rich at one time in your life so that you can adapt. Also, you can appreciate your accomplishments.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Bobbi Rebell:
let's all get rid of stuff that we now realize we truly, and I mean truly, do not need. Look at what we're living with these days. So much less. While it's sad and frustrating that for many of us our world is smaller, and hopefully this is a temporary thing, a very temporary thing. The truth is, we're also learning in this temporary time, I'm going to go with that, what really matters.

Bobbi Rebell:
My family moved out of the city to self quarantine in a more rural area. We didn't have a lot of room. We each got to take just a little bit of stuff, and we're okay. We thought we'd go back and get more. I'm not sure we're going to be able to, but I'm not sure it really matters. We just don't need so much stuff.

Episode Links:

• Chris’ website - www.chrisguillebeau.com

• Chris’ Book - The Money Tree

Follow Chris!

• Twitter - @chrisguillebeau

• Facebook - @chrisguillebeau

• Instagram - @93countries

• LinkedIn - @chrisguillebeau

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Learn how to make 2020 the year you up your net worth with these specific and very do-able strategies that will motivate and inspire you. 

4 ways to increase your net worth in 2020

Bobbi:
And we're going to talk more about the specifics of the book, but first I want to get to these four ways to increase your net worth in 2020 that you have brought to us for this Financial Grownup guide episode. One whole chapter before we get into the four, one whole chapter of your book is actually becoming a net worth warrior.

Norm Champ:
Exactly. And so much of what's in the book is really basic financial literacy and financial planning kind of ideas. Unfortunately those ideas have really gotten lost in it's the consumer society and we don't really give messages to people about financial literacy and how to build your net worth. So the whole idea of the book is to get some real concrete tips on how to build net worth.

Bobbi:
Before we get into your four ways that you brought to increase your net worth in 2020, let's just explain what exactly is your net worth. How do you calculate that? Because people kind of think they have an idea of what that is, but they may not know exactly how that is calculated, what's included and what's not.

Norm Champ:
The way to calculate your net worth is to make a balance sheet just like a business would. On the left hand side you list your assets. That's everything that you own, including things you own with debt. So home, car, savings accounts, securities account, your 401(k), any other retirement accounts. So all the assets on the left side. Then on the right hand side you put all of your liabilities, your mortgage, any other debt that you have, anything else where you owe money and it subtracts from the asset side.

Norm Champ:
So then you total up the left side, all your assets, you total up the right hand side, the liabilities, you subtract that and then the resulting number is your net worth. So what we're trying to do is build up that left hand side, build up the assets and cut down on the right hand side, cut down on the debt, so that you can increase your net worth.

Bobbi:
Great. And it takes patience. And it takes a lot of frankly being intentional. So we're going to go through these steps that you can take. And again, this is lifetime goals. This isn't something that's just going to happen overnight, but you have to start now. So the first thing that you talk about is cutting spending. And this isn't just about don't have those lattes. You talk about finding your inner governor. What does that mean? That's not a political statement.

Norm Champ:
No. And exactly is a joke in the book, it's not finding the politician running your State. So essentially we are living in a consumer society. You hear that all the time. What that means is our economy right now is primarily driven by consumer spending. I'm not so much of an unrealistic person to think we're going to stop that. However, consumer spending is not each person's friend when it comes to building their net worth. So I love your point about intentionality. You need to be intentional to reduce the spending side, because until you get the spending under control, any idea of getting out of debt, any idea of building net worth is a pretty distant goal. One of the things I talk about in the book is the subscription service mentality that we're in.

Bobbi:
Right. You say think before you click.

Norm Champ:
Think before you click. Every time you're on your phone, and literally, I mean it's gotten to absurd levels. Every time you download an app, Oh, just open an account and have a free trial and then you can always cancel. Well, human behavior and studies have shown people don't cancel. And I think the side in the book is people have nine apps that they don't use and that they're still being charged for. It's the average or something like that.

Norm Champ:
So it's just an example of how the consumer society gets you to spend and if we're going to get into positive net worth territory, we've got to get spending down. The apps are an easy one. You know the latte one is funny because you hear that all the time. I'm actually not a huge believer in that. If you want to get a cup of coffee, I would get a cup of coffee. But-

Bobbi:
It's meant to be a metaphor.

Norm Champ:
Exactly. And I think you want to be very, very conscious of every message in our society is to buy and I think some of the best learning on this ever is the thought of listen, what do I really need? There's a great principle of, Hey, you could buy the 72 inch TV and do it on a layaway plan and all these other things, but do you really need that TV? Is your current 62 inch TV okay? And starting to really think through, do I need to buy these things?

Norm Champ:
Here's another great example. This one I didn't learn about until after I did the book. Almost a majority of Americans who have a car loan owe more on the car than the car is worth mostly by two to one. So around 40,000 in debt on cars that are worth around 20,000 you're asking how can that possibly be? It's because as you trade in cars and you get different ones, the debt keeps going up and you're never making any progress. Right? So the whole cutting spending side has to be the first principle. That's where we start out in the book with, because you've got to get a control of that side if you want to get to net worth.

Bobbi:
Right, and I think you make a good point about layaway plans. People are taking longer and longer loans for cars and that's why those car loans are getting a lot more attention. It's something we've covered actually on my other podcast, Money with Friends. We've done a bunch of episodes about how that consumer behavior towards cars and car buying is evolving. Let's get to number two and that is kind of the flip side. The sister to the spending is pay down your debt.

Norm Champ:
Debt has to be, if I want to single out one thing, it's the single most corrosive thing going on in our society. This is from the very top of the country all the way down. So we are now running massive deficits at the top level, at the government level. We have had low interest rates, although somewhat better return to more normal rates now, but we had zero interest rates for all the entire Obama administration.

Norm Champ:
So the whole society has moved towards debt. The problem with debt is that people keep incurring it for the spending we were talking about, and they're always incurring new debt and they're not paying off the old debt. And so that's how you end up with these balances rising up. And so it's very important to think about, you'll think super carefully about debt, I quote, it's Benjamin Franklin in the book.

Bobbi:
Yes, I love that quote. I was about to mention that.

Norm Champ:
It's just that debt gives someone else power over you and if want to make it to be a net worth warrior, if you want to get there, you've got to get out of debt. And so it's correlated to the first principle, right? You got to cut down on the spending so you can devote that money to paying down debt and the goal should be to get out of debt.

Norm Champ:
And one of the biggest ones which I devote an entire chapter to is home buying. Our government and our society continue to press home buying as a route to wealth. The only problem with that is talk to all those people that were closed on in 2009, in 2010, they're not going to tell you the home buying was a path to wealth. Before you buy a home, it's a financial decision just like any other, and it's the number one debt, typically the biggest debt any US citizens take on their life is their home debt. Make sure that you do that with an appropriate down payment and you're really intentional about what you're doing.

Norm Champ:
As I say in the book, everyone says rent is a waste of money. Well, in a mortgage, all you're doing is renting that money from the bank. So we've got to get real on the things we're spending and going into debt for and get that debt down. And it is tough, right? It's always easier to do the new spending than pay off the old, but it's a critical part of building net worth.

Bobbi:
Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. Okay, the third way to increase your net worth, you talk about taking advantage of a 401(k) and that really goes ... I mean in your book you talk about the tax free investing. You have a whole chapter on that.

Norm Champ:
Exactly. You know something is good if the government is trying to get at it. So remember that the Obama administration proposed taxing people's 529 college savings plans, that quickly to hide a political death. But the 529s, the 401(k)s, IRAs, these are all the rare gifts of the tax code. Generally the tax code takes from you. These accounts allow you to grow money tax free. Now whether it's a Roth or traditional, it has different tax impacts, but either way you are allowed to grow your money in those accounts tax free.

Norm Champ:
There's no better way to build net worth than to take advantage of those tax free accounts and they are part of your net worth. Don't think of them as retirement accounts. Think of them as part of your net worth. And if you get, you should max your contribution to them and max any employer contribution to them.

Bobbi:
Right and don't exactly. The employer contribution is very important. Let's explain that. You can basically get in some cases as much as 100% return on whatever part the employer is matching, which is a better return than you're going to get in almost any mainstream investment, right?

Norm Champ:
As I say in the book, it's free money and anytime they offer you free money, there's the old saying, when they hand you money take it. When you get the chance to get free money from your employer in your 401(k), you have to take it. Unfortunately, statistics show low participation rates in 401(k) and then low participation with the match. And that's just free money that people are leaving on the table. And to your point, your return on that money is 100% because it's just free to you.

Norm Champ:
And then secondly, once you have it in your account and it grows tax free, then you get a compounding effect of that. And particularly for young people. But even later in life you're talking decades of investing in tax free and compounding in that account, there's nothing more valuable. And I just urge people to think of those accounts as part of their net worth, not as retirement accounts. They are part of your net worth.

Bobbi:
Right. And the fourth way to increase your net worth in 2020 that you want to talk about is the actual investing component. You say in the book that if you can read, you can manage your portfolio. A lot of people are intimidated. It's important also to understand that the vehicle we just talk about, the vehicles are buckets effectively. You don't just put money into a 401(k), you then have to invest it, it has to go somewhere. And those are choices that you have to make. You can't just put it there or it's basically like stuffing it under a mattress. Yes, you're getting the tax savings in the match, but then it has to go somewhere.

Norm Champ:
Exactly. And this point about investing, if I think of my time in the US government at the Securities Exchange Commission, this had to be the most traumatic thing I learned there, which is you see headlines about the SEC working on big cases around big financial firms and all that kind of stuff. But the vast majority of those cases are a teeny little percentage. The vast majority of what the SEC works on is something called affinity fraud.

Norm Champ:
This is where someone in your church group, someone in your community group, someone in your friend group, unfortunately people turn money over to them and that money typically gets stolen. And the reason for this is that people are scared of investing. To your point, they just don't know what to do with it. Don't know where to go with it. Oh, the nice young man in my church group said he would handle it. And of course the money's never seen again.

Norm Champ:
And so, one of the basic points that I make in the book is until you get to, I just picked half a million dollars, but there's no magic number. But until you get to a significant net worth, there's no reason to do anything other than divide your money between stocks and bonds and mutual funds. Mutual funds are low cost. They're regulated very closely by the federal government. We have never had a mutual fund failure that cost anyone money. It doesn't mean the investments are going to go up, but they are heavily regulated. They're intended for the retail investor and they've become very cheap. if you look at the cost ratios, they've gotten incredibly cheap as far as fees.

Norm Champ:
My real point on this is don't be afraid because it's the fear of investing that leads people to the scam artists, the affinity frauds. And so don't be afraid. Do the simple formula that I have in the book of the split between stocks and bonds, go into your 401(k) or your taxable County, you're absolutely right. These are just buckets of money, taxable and nontaxable. Go in there and get your asset allocation set up and then forget about it. You're not going to trade, you're a busy person, you're hiring those mutual fund managers to do it for you. And it's a very safe way to invest.

Norm Champ:
Again, it doesn't mean you're going to make money. However, over the longterm, I just was reading an article over the longterm stocks remain at about an 11% return per year. There's obviously big ups and downs in that. The key is to stay in these funds and let them reinvest and let them ride out over time. And on a longterm average, you're going to make a ton of money and in the 401(k) you're not going to be taxed on it. So it's just trying to get people away from the risky investments, unfortunately, because of the fear of investing, people reach for investments that they shouldn't be investing in.

Bobbi:
Yeah, and I do want to just give some context to the comments that you're making. You are a former director of the division of investment management at the SEC, and also under your leadership I should say, the SEC did adopt a new rule to reform money market mutual funds. So this really is an issue that's very close to heart. You were there right after the Bernie Madoff scandal and you know Bernie Madoff, a lot of that happened because people trusted him. He was in these affinity groups. He had validation having been in leadership at the Nasdaq and so on and so that is a very real thing. So thank you for bringing that up. Before we wrap it up, anything more to share about the book? I mean it's very readable I think, and it's only 150 pages, but it is packed with a lot of great information.

Norm Champ:
Oh, thanks so much. This is a passion project. Financial literacy is something I believe in deeply. I'm starting a nonprofit organization to pursue that mission of trying to get these messages out there and I'd love to do, if anyone wants to do an event, I'd be happy to come and bring books and just give them away. Frankly, I want this message to get out there, it's really something I feel very, very strongly about.

Episode Links:

• Norm's website - www.normchamp.com

• Norm’s Book - Mastering Money: How to Beat Debt, Build Wealth and Be Prepared for Any Financial Crisis

Follow Norm!

• Instagram - @authornormchamp

• Twitter - @NormBChamp

• Facebook - @NormChampAuthor

• LinkedIn - @normchamp

• YouTube

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Reese Everson was able to drive off in a Mercedes on a Nissan budget by making some creative choices and getting real about her priorities. We also preview her latest book and share a money tip that will help you get past procrastination and feeling overwhelmed.

Reese’s Money Story:

Bobbi Rebell:

there's a lot more to the story. There's a lot of dramatic twists and turns. And what I loved about the book is that you use it as a foundation to share a lot of information about things that people don't know about in terms of how finances work, especially in terms of the things that you're talking about. Inheritance, reverse mortgage and so on. So that's a little teaser for the book, so everyone needs to check out The Babes Guide to Generational Wealth. Let's talk about your money story. It's something that you kind of mentioned briefly but I want you to expand on. It's about going shopping for a car and you were originally going to buy a Nissan and then again you're so dramatic Reese, another twist in the story.

Reese Everson:
Yes. I got to the dealership to go pick up my Nissan and they were just giving me all sorts of hoops to jump through. Oh, we don't have that color. Because, here's the thing. They posted an advertisement that said the Nissan Maximas were $199 with no money down. Now when we hear those things, we think, oh, okay, that sounds good, but when you really get there, there's a couple other stipulations. They may limit it to a certain color and then when you get there they don't have that color. Kind of like when you want something from Target but they're sold out and you can't just get a rain check. And so I got to the dealership and they were trying to give me all this runaround because they really wanted me to pay a much higher price and that advertisement was just to get me in the door.

Reese Everson:
So I told them, I said, "Listen, I'm going to go to lunch and I'm going for a walk. When I get back, I'll be ready to sign off on the car and you'd better have the color or whatever you need to have so that I can have the price that you advertised and I'm not paying a penny more." During my walk, I walked across the street to the Mercedes dealership and I saw the car of my dreams. I said, "Oh my gosh, I just want to take a picture inside this car so I can put it on my vision board." I need to see myself in this vehicle. So I walked in and I sat down and I told the guys, I said, "Excuse me, can you take a picture for me? He said, "Of course." So I take this picture, and he said, "Well, what car are you looking at today?" I said, "Oh, a Nissan Maxima." He said, "You don't look like a Nissan girl to me. You look like a Mercedes girl."

Bobbi Rebell:
He's a good salesperson.

Reese Everson:
And so I was so caught off guard by that, I mean, he was really talking to what really gets most people to buy is our emotional validation feeling. And of course we all want to be affiliated with a much higher fancy luxury brand than just a regular Nissan. He said, "Well, what's your budget?" I said, "$199 no money down." Because I wasn't going to spend more just because it was a Mercedes. I literally had a budget and I was going to stick to it. And so when I told the guy that he was just, "Well, you've got to come up with a little more for a Mercedes of course."

Reese Everson:
And you know what? I stuck to my guns and I want to say that I walked in there around 12 noon and I drove out at 7:00 PM in a brand new Mercedes. But here's the trick to it. I wanted a new car. Well, what Mercedes has available sometimes are cars that have been used but they've only been leased for a year. Those cars are substantially less than a car that's the brand new model but it has all of the features and gadgets of the brand new model usually. So I was able to get a car at a much lower price, which was almost the same as what I was going to pay for a Nissan, maybe $10 more. You just really have to be willing to negotiate but also realize that cars depreciate 40% as soon as you drive them off the lot. So having a new car, it sounds good, but is it the best financial fit for most of us? And the answer is usually no

“What really gets people to buy is our emotional validation feeling. ”

Reese’s Money Lesson:

Reese Everson:

The one thing I realized is that you have to be willing to walk away and you have to be willing to say no. A lot of times when we're shopping it can get emotional. It's about, oh, this makes me feel good, this makes me look good. People will look at me a certain way in a Mercedes. But the truth of the matter is when you're really happy none of that stuff matters. Fast forwarding from that experience, I was actually in California maybe two years after I had gotten my Mercedes and I was riding up the coast, the Pacific Highway, past Malibu and all of that stuff. And I was driving a rental car, a Hyundai, and it's just a basic Hyundai, nothing fancy about it.

Reese Everson:
But I was just as happy and just as peaceful in this Hyundai as I was in my Mercedes. So what I realized is when you're really happy it's not about the car that you're in, it's about how you feel about yourself and inside yourself. And so when you really are at a place where you've made sure that you are walking in your happiness and you're not putting up with unnecessary drama or going through stress and harassment at work, you're going to be perfectly fine with whatever vehicle gets you from point A to point B.

“You have to be willing to walk away. And you have to be willing to say no.”

Reese’s Money Tip:

Reese Everson:
Well, one of the first tips I have for people is, open your mail. And it sounds really, really elementary and simple but here's the truth of the matter. When I've done coaching with clients, one of my clients, I remember walking into her kitchen and I opened up her kitchen cabinet and she said, "I'm embarrassed to show you this. Don't ever tell anyone this, but I need to tell you guys it's a big deal." I opened her kitchen cabinet where her pots and pans were supposed to be and the door swung open and piles of mail for maybe two or three years were stuffed in her kitchen cabinet. And it made me realize you can't be in control of your money if you're not even opening your mail.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which we assume but that's amazing. I mean this had to have been some kind of a denial situation where she just couldn't handle it.

Reese Everson:
Absolutely. So what we have is a person who had gone through a divorce and to some extent things kind of started to pile up and when it overwhelmed her, instead of saying, "You know what? I'm going to get a system. I'm going to have a desk where I spread things out where I maybe hole punch things and keep them in a binder." It began to intimidate her and she buried her head in the sand. And so all of that mail instead of reading it and hearing more and more bad news because it started to bother her, she just started to throw it under the cabinet. Well probably in a drawer.

Reese Everson:
Some of us start with a drawer and then I think it just overwhelmed the drawer and somehow just filled up a cabinet and she had years of documents in a cabinet and what I'm learning is that if you don't know how to handle what you're dealing with and what's coming at you, you've got to get some help. We've got to say, "Wait a minute, pause. This is starting to overwhelm me." And when you realize that, keep in mind this is going to affect my credit. It's easier to stop the train early on and get some help than to try to pull the train from the river.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Create reasons to open the mail. Stay with me here. This may sound silly, but because I personally do have a habit of letting the mail go a few days, sometimes even a week. I have recently started creating reasons to open the mail. Specifically the idea that money could be coming in good things. So for example, I have an account on Rakuten. It's a browser extension that pays you a few percent back on things that you buy. It doesn't always add up to that much. Although I've gotten as much as $99 in a month, which is not all that bad. It's still nice to get a check, a paper check. It's kind of retro, but it feels good. I've set it up so that I get those checks in the snail mail rather than say auto deposit or points in their system, whatever.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

I love when Reese says to just walk away. As a consumer, we need to be reminded, but we should always remember that it is our money. If the purchase doesn't fit your needs and especially if somebody tries to pull what was clearly a bait and switch on you like they tried to do with Reese, she didn't fall for it, hit the road or at least hit pause like she did and figure out what you can do with that situation. And by the way, as long as your expectation is reasonable and they can make a profit, you'll almost always certainly get some version of your way in the end.

What's your take on deciding when to walk away and how have you been able to upgrade the things that you want? DM me on Instagram at Bobbi Rebell one or on Twitter. I'm at Bobbi Rebell. Please help us grow the show by subscribing and telling your friends and if you have a few minutes, please take the time to review the show. I read and truly appreciate every one. Pick up a copy of The Babes Guide to Generational Wealth. It's a great read. I truly enjoyed it and recommend it and big thanks to Reese Everson for helping us all be financial grownups.

Episode Links:

• Reese's website - www.babesintheworkplace.com

• Reese’s Book - The B.A.B.E.’s Guide to Generational Wealth

Follow Reese!

• Instagram - @thebabesguide

• Twitter - @thebabesguide

• Facebook - @TheBABESGuide

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Bobbi reveals her favorite new money related books, and how to decide if they are right for you. This month’s picks include Don’t Keep Your Day Job by Cathy Heller, The Big Stretch by Teneshia Warner, The Future is Faster Than You Think by Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler, Napkin Finance by Tina Hay and Bow Dow by Lindsay Goldwert.

These are recommendations so I am going to focus on why I was drawn to them and what I got out of them- and full disclosure we do focus  on books written by authors that appear on the podcast- because if we are being honest when I love a book- I want to know more and I want to share that with you guys so we tend to reach out and try to get them on.

Book #1: Don’t Keep Your Day Job: How to Turn your Passion into your Career by Cathy Heller

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-The book is practical and specific. She gives down to earth advice about how to realistically follow your passion but in a very practical way. 

- She shares advice from experts including authors Jen Sincero and Gretchen Rubin and actress Jenna Fischer. There are also stories about every day people to make it relatable.

-There are lots of inspirational quotes like "Why did it have to be an ‘either-or’ when it could be a ‘yes and’?”

Who is this book for:

Don’t keep your day job will motivate just about anyone but it is especially for people looking for advice on well.. how to leave their corporate jobs. Also Entrepreneurs who need a little nudge to connect doing what they love, with doing something that another person or entity will pay for. Emphasis on getting paid.  

Book #2: The Big Stretch: 90 Days to Expand Your Dreams, Crush Your Goals, and Create Your Own Success by Teneshia Warner

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

-It shares the success stories of some of the dreamers that have spoken at those conferences

-It has a time line: 90 days with specific assignments

-Teneshia’s personality shines through and is the real gem in this book

Who is this book for:

It’s for people willing to do the work to get to their goals and The Big Stretch will help you decide if that is you. Not everyone is ready to go for it- and Teneshia sets expectations that will push you to get there- but only if you are ready. 

Book #3: The Future is Faster Thank You Think. How Converging Technologies Are Transforming Business, Industries and Our Lives by Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler.

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-At first I was intimidated by the book- in part because it’s authors are so accomplished as “Big” Thought Leaders. But once I started reading it, this actually became a page turner because of the very accessible way they approach what are often complicated topics, 

-It’s a little like looking into a crystal ball except after- and only after they lay out theories and predictions, you realize that to a large degree. the way things play out was logical all along. They touch on everything from AI, to digital biology, virtual reality, robotics and blockchain.

-The book made me smarter about our world and who doesn’t love just feeling like they have a better handle on our world. 

Who is this book for:

Truth- This is all stuff I just wasn’t that into- until I started reading the book. So even if this isn’t your thing- move out of your comfort zone and just start. You might be surprised how much you like it, just like I did. 

Book #4: Napkin Finance: Build your Wealth in 30 seconds or less by Tina Hay.

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

-It addresses the very basics of financial literacy in a unique and approachable way

-Napkin Finance explains some of the most misunderstood and confusing topics ranging from blockchain to credit scores and paying off student debt.

-Fun fact: Napkin Finance partnered with Michelle Obama’s Better Make Room campaign 

Who is this book for:

Napkin Finance is a book for beginners- and for those of us that can benefit from some re-enforcement and sometimes clarification of financial concepts- most basic but some kind of complicated. 

Bonus Book: Bow Down: Lessons from Dominatrixes on How to Get Everything You Want by Lindsay Goldwert.

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-Lindsay is very revealing about her own challenges and makes you feel like you are in it together with her

-The doms- as Lindsay often refers to the dominatrixes share some very specific advice about how they negotiate and hold on to power

-There is a lot of psychology and real insights into human behavior and what triggers certain reactions. By revealing these Lindsay helps us see why we get the reactions we do, and how we can pivot to get.. well everything we want. 

Who is this book for:

Everyone that wants to get everything they want- of course. 

Episode Links:

Cathy Heller’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Don’t Keep Your Day Job: How to Turn your Passion into your Career

Teneshia Warner’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of The Big Stretch: 90 Days to Expand Your Dreams, Crush Your Goals, and Create Your Own Success

Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of The Future is Faster Thank You Think. How Converging Technologies Are Transforming Business, Industries and Our Lives

Tina Hay’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Napkin Finance: Build your Wealth in 30 seconds or less

Lindsay Goldwert’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Bow Down: Lessons from Dominatrixes on How to Get Everything You Want.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler, authors of "The Future is Faster Than You Think: How Converging Technologies Are Transforming Business, Industries And Our Lives" join Bobbi with a preview of their latest book, and specific ways money-related changes will impact us in the coming years. 

8 Ways Money Will Change the Future

1. We’re going to live longer—we’ll need to approach retirement very differently

2. Demonetization is going to radically alter education, travel etc.

3. Convergence means that future financial investment opportunities can lie between industries and in mash-up markets

4. New players in Finance (Google, for example, just went into banking)

5. Insurance is going to radically change and whole categories will vanish

6. Your AI is going to be making a lot of your buying decisions for you.

7 You also say we are moving to a cashless future 

8 -Blockchain will continue to disrupt traditional banking, spreading widely into the developed world much like it’s already transformed financial systems in developing countries.

Episode Links:

• Peter's website - www.diamandis.com

• Steven’s website - www.stevenkotler.com

Follow Peter!

• Twitter - @PeterDiamandis

• Facebook - @PeterDiamandis

• LinkedIn - @peterdiamandis

Follow Steven!

• Instagram - @kotler.steven

• Twitter - @steven_kotler

• Facebook - @KotlerSteven

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us a little bit about the book, just quickly before we get into some really cool stuff you're going to share with us.

Steven Kotler:
The future we talk about in the book, for some people is scary, because people are not used to this rapid rate of change. The best solution for that fear is really having an understanding of where the world is going. Part of the mission of the book is to give people a clear vision of the future that these converging technologies are enabling. For most of the case, this is an incredible win for consumers, an uplifting of abundance in the world, where ultimately these exponential converging technologies are helping to meet the need of every man, woman, and child on the planet. That makes for a world that is, in my ... in our mind, I would say safer and better for humanity, so this is a hopeful book that builds the case for creating a better world for tomorrow.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's really a roadmap into how money is going to change in the future and, most importantly, how we can and frankly need to be ready. A lot of this is not just you guys talking. There's a lot of scientific research here and a lot tying in technology to money and how it's going to specifically impact our lives. You're going to give us a preview, and you brought with you a list of different ways that all these things are going to affect money and our lives. Let's start with the first thing on your list. This is about our approach to retirement and longevity.

Peter Diamandis:
Sure, let me jump in there, because it's an area that I spend a lot of time investing in and time building companies around, and it's the notion that we're going to be heading to a world in which we're not dying at age 70 or 80, that we're living a healthy lifespan to 90, to 100, to 110, eventually 120. In our book, The Future is Faster Than You Think, we have an entire chapter on healthcare and a chapter on longevity that tracks these different technologies, billions of dollars flowing into them. If you think about it, there's no larger business opportunity than extending the healthy human lifespan. So, I think this is a reality and I think people need to start thinking about, "Do I have to save enough money to live to be 100 years old or 110 years old?" Because if you can have the aesthetics, the cognition and mobility at 100 that you had at 60, why wouldn't you want to? It's not about living in a wheelchair, it's about living a vibrant life. So, that's the first thing. We're going to live longer. We're going to live healthier, and we have to prepare for that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Such a great point. Let's move onto the second point. This is fascinating, demonetization, because this goes into things that we love, like travel, right, Steven?

Steven Kotler:
Yeah, so demonetization is essentially the removal of money from the equation. The simple example that we're all familiar with is the smartphone. So when Peter and I wrote the first book in the trilogy, [inaudible 00:05:30], we're calling the Exponential Mindset trilogy, with our latest book, The Future is Faster Than You Think is the third installment in. In Abundance, back when we started, we looked at all the technology that shows up for free, demonetized completely, in your smartphone. In 1980s prices, it was over a million dollars-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Steven Kotler:
In music players, in Encyclopedias, in GPS, and on and on and on. So, this is a million dollars worth of stuff that has been dematerialized. It doesn't exist anymore. It comes for free in your phone. This is ... Whenever technologies go exponential, one of the things that starts to happen almost automatically is they begin to demonetize, and this is going into every industry. Travel is a really radical example, both because we're seeing ... over the next 10 years, we're going to see technology such as the Hyperloop, which is high speed trains, maglev trains, 750 miles an hour, so suddenly San Francisco to LA is a 20-minute commute or Las Vegas to San Francisco is a 20-minute commute, which, by the way, totally changes the real estate picture and your local school metric and your dating pool and all that stuff, besides the point, but you've got five or six other technologies, autonomous cars, flying cars, rockets, et cetera.

Steven Kotler:
Then, you have avatars and virtual reality, which completely demonetizes travel. Now we already have avatars and virtual worlds, but if you can put on VR goggles and have an avatar attend a meeting that you need to attend and you've got haptic technology so you can shake hands with other people and be there, or you can have telepresence robots waiting for you that you sort of rent by the hour in your destination city and you can port your senses using VR into the robot and then send the robot onto stage to give a speech for you or whatnot. This sounds crazy far future, but Peter's company, the X Prize, it's [nepon 00:07:29], right, Peter?

Peter Diamandis:
It's all Nepon Airways, ANA Airlines, has basically said, "How do we displace the need for airplanes? How do you not put yourself in an aluminum tube and fly someplace?" They launched a $10 million dollar avatar X Prize. Can we build the avatars, like Steven was saying, then I can transport my consciousness, my senses, and my actions hundreds or thousands of miles away instead of flying in an airplane.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow, so cool. Let's talk about the investment opportunities angle here, because you say convergence means that future of financial investment opportunities can lie between industries and mashup markets. What does that mean?

Peter Diamandis:
It means that we have pure play investments before in a computer company or communications company or a healthcare company, but all of these things are beginning to blur, right? We're seeing Amazon all of a sudden going from a bookseller to a food company when it buys Whole Foods and it's now moving into healthcare and into finance. So, we're going to start to see companies that are blurring the lines between what have been traditional areas. A lot of the companies that are going to be crushing it are data-driven companies. Google and Amazon and Apple are in our home and they're going to start to play increasingly different roles. It was interesting that Tim Cook, we talk about this in The Future is Faster Than You Think. Tim Cook makes a statement like, "In the future, Apple is going to be best known for its impact on healthcare." Wow. So, we're going to start to see a lot of these blurred lines. So, when you are excited about investing in a particular industry or particular area, it's not going to be the traditional players. It's going to be a new set of players coming in from unpredictable adjacencies.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which dovetails to your point that there's going to be a lot of new players in finance.

Steven Kotler:
There are going to be a lot of new players in finance and finance as a whole is going to radically change. We've seen this already. We've seen what AI did to finance. At this point, when there's height rating volume, for example, 90% of the trades on Wall Street are being made by computers at this point. That's just today and where we are, but to Peter's point, the advantage you get is data, right? The more data you have, the bigger understanding you have of markets. We'll see this in traditional finance. We're going to see this playing huge roles in insurance. We're going to see this show up in real estate. It's really going to transform the financial landscape. The first inklings of it, companies like IBM, lots in doing wealth management services, right? It's going to mean that people working in the finance space, creativity is going to become the most important skill going forward. This was not a skill 20 years ago you would have really associated with finance and now it's the key skill because everything else that can be automatized will probably be automatized.

Bobbi Rebell:
Insurance, it is going to radically change.

Peter Diamandis:
Insurance is going to change dramatically and we are going to go away from what was the old actuarial tables of, statistically, over a population of 100,000 people, here's the probability. That's not going to be the case. Now it's like, okay, this is specifically the probability for you, given the technology you're enabling, given the way you eat, exercise, and so forth, your genetics and such. We're going to insure you personally and we're going to work to keep you healthier longer, alive longer, fire free, theft free, and that's our job now. So, interesting change, which makes the world a better place, and people will want that kind of insurance over the "We'll pay you after the disaster occurred."

Steven Kotler:
The other thing I want to add to that is, of course with autonomous cars, car insurance as a category goes away. Right? If the cars are driving themselves and they don't crash, car insurance goes away or at least the risk, it shifts from the consumer, right? Google, with Waymo, [inaudible 00:11:33] with Waymo, they provide ... everybody who gets in the car automatically gets insurance because they're the one who controls the autonomous car, so that's another category that's going to disappear.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's talk about artificial intelligence. How will this affect, for example, the everyday consumer, people buying stuff?

Peter Diamandis:
So, interestingly enough, we're all going to have a version of Jarvis from Iron Man. If you remember Jarvis, Tony Stark had this AI that was in his suit and in his home. He would talk to it and Jarvis would be like a personal, intelligent butler or assistant in this regard. We have the early versions of this with Amazon Echo. We have the early versions of that with Google Home and such, but one thing that's going to happen in the consumer world is that your AI's going to do your buying for you. If your AI is doing your buying for you of foods or consumer products in general, what's that do to advertising, right? If I'm not making the decisions anymore, you can throw all the ads at me you want, but my AI is actually looking at my genetics and the molecular makeup of the toothpaste and saying, "This toothpaste is better for you than this one. Everyone in your peer group, Peter, is buying this and enjoying it and it's cheaper, so I'm buying that for you." You get a new toothpaste and go, "Oh, I like this one better." Right? So the world becomes auto-magical.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love it, because it can save a lot of money for consumers, and time and energy, to not have that decision making stress, because every decision is stress.

Steven Kotler:
Absolutely. These are parts of where the world is going, and not in 30 years or 20 years, this next decade, which is what we outlined in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
Last thing I want to go through is you say we're moving to a cashless future, to the surprise of, really, no one, I think. I think everyone kind of sees the writing on the wall with this one.

Steven Kotler:
Where it starts to get really interesting is, for example, Amazon Go. This is a cashierless checkout where you scan a QR code on your way into the store on your phone, you take the items off the shelf, sensors in the items notice that you've taken it, the AI cameras pick it up, and it's automatically deducted from your account, which is linked, too, in your cellphone and there's no more cash in the equation. This is ... Those stores are here. They're rolling out at scale over the next couple of years. I'm sure there are probably always going to be craft retail stores, like throwback stores. We still have [inaudible 00:13:50] and the chain here, but at convenience stores, at gas stations, at grocery stores, places we're already seeing automated checkout anyways, right? We're checking ourselves out and it's a pain in the butt, but now the hassle is gone. Obviously the savings for retail is enormous. There's no way to compete.

Bobbi Rebell:
What can the average person be doing to get ready for this future?

Peter Diamandis:
We put out something called Abundance Insider, which is a weekly email of how the world is getting more abundant and how to see this positive news. There are amazing books that Steven have written. Please read Abundance and Bold, which are the first two books in the Exponential Mindset series.

Steven Kotler:
Yeah, the only other thing I would add is, there's a human performance side of this, which I tend to work on the Flow Research Collective, so if you want to know what you can do in your own life to keep up in an accelerating world, the website for the flowresearchcollective.com will give you tons and tons of information there.

Music entrepreneur, author, coach and podcast host Cathy Heller was crushed early in her career when her record label dropped her. But she discovered another way to make money from her music and staged the ultimate multi-million dollar comeback. 

Cathy’s Money Story:

Cathy Heller:
Yeah. My money story. I came out to LA wanting to write music. That was all I knew I loved doing as a kid. I thought, all right, I'm going to do that thing that you see them do in movies. I'm going to go out to LA. I grew up on the East Coast. I was going to figure it out and I had to get a job and pay the bills. I got a job as an assistant in an office and I had a roommate and she was an actress and I was doing my thing. And eventually I started writing music and I wrote some mediocre songs and they got better. And I finally got a record deal. I actually did. I remember sitting with Ron Fair at Interscope, I had just signed and Lady Gaga was there recording Paparazzi and I was like, oh my God, I'm sitting in this room. It's amazing.

Bobbi Rebell:
That must've been so surreal.

Cathy Heller:
It was really surreal. And by the way, hearing Paparazzi recorded is really cool because if you go back now and listen, you'll hear what I'm referring to. There's all these strings on the recording and it makes the pop music just sound like some other dimension is going on and it's beautiful. It was just amazing. But I got dropped from the label a few months later. While I was actually sitting there in the studio, Ron Fair, my producer at the time, he said to me, "You know Cathy, when I first came out to LA, I met with Bill Conti." Bill Conti is the guy who did the music for Rocky and so many other iconic movies and he said to him, "You know Ron, you're a really good songwriter but you're an amazing producer." And he said, "And I wound up making a living really as one of the best producers in the industry."

Cathy Heller:
And I remember that story and I didn't know three, four months later that I'd get dropped from the label, but I did and I wound up going and getting a quote unquote real job and I did so many things. I worked in a floral design studio. I thought, oh, if I can't do the thing I love that's creative, I'll do something else creative. As if it's going to scratch that same itch and it doesn't. I think we all have tried that. And then a friend of mine said, "If you're not going to do what you love, just make money." And I said, "Well how do you do that?" She said, "You do real estate." She said, "I know a guy who works in commercial real estate, he lives in Brentwood. You should go work for him."

Cathy Heller:
She introduces me and I start working in commercial real estate. I don't know the first thing about cap rates or mortgages and he says, "All you have to do is pick up the phone, call about 20 to 30 people a day and set some meetings for me and I'll give you good money if you can set meetings." And I wound up being pretty good at it and then I was there for two years and it was really like golden handcuffs because he was paying me a 150 grand to sit at this desk and make phone calls for him.

Bobbi Rebell:
Life is going by and you're not in the music business.

Cathy Heller:
No, I wasn't doing anything I loved. And I remember one day I was driving and I was crying so hard, I had to pull over to the side of the road and I thought to myself, I just, I don't know where I went, but I don't recognize myself. I am not this girl. I don't wear pantsuits. I don't blow my hair out. I don't talk this way. And I thought, gosh, we were talking about Tony Robbins before because he wrote the forward to your book and he always says, "Success without fulfillment is like the ultimate failure." And I felt like I couldn't breathe. I was like, I don't care that I'm driving a cute little Mercedes convertible. I don't care that I can eat sushi whenever I want. I don't feel like myself. I am so not me.

Cathy Heller:
And I decided I was going to quit and I quit my job, which I don't recommend to people. What I recommend to people now is that you build a runway and build a side hustle and validate your idea. And there's so many great tools and ways to do that so that you don't have to just jump. But I did. I couldn't take it. I just jumped.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was that like when you went in? You just went in one day and quit. Did you have overhead? Rent? You didn't have a family at the time, I assume.

Cathy Heller:
No, I was only 26. I quit and I thought to myself, oh by the time I run out of whatever tiny amount of savings I have from this job, I'm sure I'll be making money in music. And I saw that there was a whole world of musicians who were licensing their songs to TV shows, like Grey's Anatomy in One Tree Hill at the time and ads for McDonald's and Pepsi and Walmart. And I was like, what is this whole road? I wish I would've known about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm thinking that now. I never even thought about that whole world. And you're just observing it and there's a business behind that.

Cathy Heller:
Oh, it's a huge business. And this article, this article was really opening my eyes. It was telling me that people in this field were making hundreds of thousands of dollars because ad agencies were paying the artists 50, 60, $70,000 a pop for just the use, just the license, not the ownership to use the song in an ad. And television shows were spending something like five or $10,000 per song in an episode. Of course it's more for an ad because there might be one retail ad for a campaign versus 22 episodes and six songs an episode, but still five or 10 grand to have your song used in a show or $50,000 to have your song used in a Walmart spot.

Cathy Heller:
I was getting pretty excited about that and so I made that decision that I would do everything I could to figure out who were the clients, who were the people choosing songs at Paramount and NBC and Lion's Gate and ad agencies like Ogilvy and Deutsche and McCann. Who were those people? And what did they need? And I had never asked myself that question before. Up until that moment, I thought that you either did something you loved that came completely from your heart or you built someone else's dream and you sold out. I never really understood that you could marry the two things, that you could be who you were and feel authentic and at the same time you could know that someone else has a need and a want and that you could answer that with your gifts. And then that's really how you make a living.

Cathy Heller:
And it made so much sense. All of a sudden it's like the lights went on and I thought, wow. And I started telling songwriter friends of mine who were starving and working jobs that they hated, barista jobs and insurance jobs, and I said to them, "Look, have you ever looked at this this way?" And they said, "Oh my gosh, you're going to be such a sell out. You're going to hate the music you write." And I said, "Oh my God."

Bobbi Rebell:
They said that?

Cathy Heller:
Oh, they had so much resistance.

Bobbi Rebell:
Really?

Cathy Heller:
Because people, especially artists believe that if you're really an artist, then you're probably starving because you're so authentic. And that definitely doesn't account for people like Michelangelo who died with $50 million to his name before inflation. He would be a billionaire today. It doesn't account for people like John Williams who's written all the scores to Star Wars and Jaws and all of these movies. It doesn't account for any of the people you've ever supported. Whether it's somebody concert, you go to a piece of art. Why? Because all of the people that I just mentioned are people who absolutely care what their customer, what their audience needs and wants.

Cathy Heller:
And I realize that the difference between a hobby and a business is that a hobby is something you do for you. But a business has to have at its core, radical, radical, radical empathy because it means that something that I'm doing in this world, someone else is going to value and they're going to pay me for it. I got that. And so I got excited. I actually got excited to find out how I could serve and I started to do the next thing which I tell people to do, which is I think everybody has Michael Jordan talent at something. But we're really missing momentum. And what we need to do is validate our ideas and we need to get feedback by going out and talking to human beings about what they need.

Cathy Heller:
And so I started to do that really scary, scary thing, which was pick up the phone and call Warner Brothers and call all these ad agencies and call Disney and call brands and ask questions about what kinds of campaigns, what kinds of stories they were telling, what kinds of things they needed musically. What kinds of sonic palettes. Did they like strings? Did they like ukuleles? Is the story this year about sisters? Is it about female empowerment? Is it about being there for someone? And people I am telling you, they were so happy to tell me what they needed. They were so happy that for the first time in a long time somebody reached out and it was refreshing to them that I wasn't calling to pitch myself and to read a script and try to be impressive.

Cathy Heller:
I was calling to ask what I could do to use my talent to help and long story short, within 18 months I started making $100,000 writing songs for film and TV and then that grew second and third year I started making $300,000 a year and then I got written about in Variety and Billboard and the LA Weekly and when I say written about, it wasn't a two line blurb about this girl who was writing music for film and TV. It was a full page story, not just digitally but in print magazines with a picture of me telling the story about how I was taking matters into my own hands and I was really successful.

“A hobby is something you do for you. But a business has to have at it’s core radical empathy. Because it means that something that I am doing in this world someone else is going to value and they are going to pay me for it.”

Cathy’s Money Lesson:

Cathy Heller:
You've got to validate your idea and I think what most people do is they think about businesses backwards where they think to themselves, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to sit in my little cave and I'm going to come up with this line of cupcakes or this jewelry I'm going to do or I'm going to write the whole book before they ever test it. Before they ever figure out who would buy this jewelry? Who would eat these cupcakes? And maybe I should go and in tandem with this person who I'm making it for, maybe I should be getting their input, getting feedback and then weaving that feedback into my process. I think that people just don't realize that we make it harder than it needs to be and if you look at any successful company, they are testing ideas all the time. They are paying for your feedback. They are doing focus groups because it works.

Cathy Heller:
And then this sounds really simple but it's usually really hard. You have to go out and tell people about your idea. You have to make sure that you're going out in the world and you are letting people know about it and instead of saying, "Well, I'm going to think about this and noodle around on my about page for 40 hours." No, it's pick up the phone and make the call. Let them know what's so awesome about what you're doing as opposed to telling them, how you do what you do. People forget that we don't buy things, we buy feelings, we buy results. And so often when you ask someone, "Tell me about the thing that you're creating or service you're offering." People sort of get tongue tied.

Bobbi Rebell:
How many people do you think you called for every time you place a song in the early years before you were known?

Cathy Heller:
It's hundreds.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hundreds?

Cathy Heller:
Yeah. And when people would say no to me, and there were times that people not only said no, but said, "Don't ever send music like this. It's so mediocre." And instead of me being completely devastated, because obviously I wasn't completely devastated. I felt bad, I felt gross, I felt stupid sometimes. But I would take the feedback and I knew that I would give myself the grace to get better at it.

“I would take the feedback. And I would give myself the grace to get better at it.”

Cathy’s Money Tip:

Cathy Heller:
Yeah. My everyday money tip is something that I learned from Jen Sincero who wrote, You are a Badass. When she was on my podcast, she was living at 40 years old in a, she was living in a garage eating cans of tuna fish and she's like, something's got to change. And she did a bunch of self help stuff. And finally somebody said to her, why don't you write a letter to money? And she's like, what does that mean? And she wrote a letter to money and she was like, money, I hate you. Money, you're the reason for everyone's problems. And she realized at the end of the letter that she was carrying around feeling so much resistance to money because deep down money is something that she felt would make her less of a kind person. And that was a choice she didn't want to make. She didn't want to either have money and be a jerk or not have money, but she chose not having money if it meant she would have her integrity.

Cathy Heller:
And so I often tell people, "Why don't you write a letter to money?" Because sometimes what we find out is that at the root of it we might be sabotaging ourself because we might believe that money is something we feel shame around. If it's not shame for having it and being a jerk, sometimes it's shame like who am I to deserve to have good things? And when we can get to the root of that, it's very important because ultimately in life the results of our life, it has to do with what we really deep down want.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about where people can follow up and learn more about you and your podcast and your book and all things Cathy Heller.

“We don’t buy things. We buy feelings. We buy results.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Some of Cathy's best clients were the very ones who rejected her earlier in her career. When I asked Cathy about this after the interview, she explained that if she was being honest with herself, her work just was not that good initially when she pitched them. She had to get better at her craft. It's business. It's not personal. Early rejection is not forever rejection. Try to find out why your work wasn't accepted and then work on the work.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Cathy talked about how some of her musician friends called her a sellout. Look guys, making an honest living is not selling out. There is no glory in being a starving artist. It doesn't make you a better artist to not earn money. Nor by the way, is there any historical precedent for this over romanticized idea. Professional artists, Michelangelo, for example, died in 1564 at the age of 88. His net worth by many reports in the ballpark of $7 million.

Episode Links:

• Cathy's website - CathyHeller.com

• Cathy’s podcast Don’t Keep Your Day Job

• Cathy’s book Don’t Keep Your Day Job

Follow Cathy!

• Instagram - @cathy.heller

• Twitter - @NoDayJobs

• Facebook - @dontkeepyourdayjob

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

New Year, New Grownup attitude towards your money. We chat with Tina Hay, author of  the new book Napkin Finance: Build Wealth in 30 seconds or less, about how grownups can approach savings, investing, retirement strategies and philanthropy in 2020. 

4 Simple and fun ways to be a financial grownup for the New Year

1. Savings

2. Investing

3. Retirement

4. Philanthropy

Episode Links:

• Tina's website www.napkinfinance.com

• Tina’s book Napkin Finance

Follow Tina + Napkin Finance!

• Instagram - @napkinfinance

• Twitter - @napkinfinance

• Facebook - @napkinfinance

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Performance coach Jen Cohen is a master at ab crunches— and crunching numbers. She shares the story of how she talked her way into a job at Olive Garden before she was even old enough to work- and then reveals her secrets to eating healthier on a tight budget. 

Jennifer’s Money Story:

Thanks, Bobbi. When you asked that question, it makes you think and go back into your brain a little bit to think why someone is the way they are, subconsciously. I think it really goes back to when I was really small, four, five years old when my mom and dad did get divorced, and I guess money was quite tight. I do remember my mom, to make extra money, my mom is a psychiatric nurse, and she had a full-time job, but she had now two kids also, and it wasn't enough, so she would have these odd jobs.

Jen Cohen:
I don't remember all the details, but I do remember her working to sell stuff. She sold Mary Kay cosmetics on the side. She would also cut out pieces of the carpet in our apartment where she was selling them, and I think that vision or that imagery really stuck in my brain in a negative way. It told me right at that moment, "I don't want to be poor, or I always want to make my own money and feel financially stable and secure, not to rely on somebody else for my financial security."

Jen Cohen:
From that moment, I guess even as a small, small child, I went through life thinking of ways of having side hustles or working and doing things. When I was 12 years old, I remember bargaining and hustling with the manager of the Olive Garden down my street about working for him.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, you were 12 years old, and you were working at Olive Garden?

Jen Cohen:
I was. I was a greeter. They wouldn't allow me at 12 because you're too young to get ... I wasn't allowed in the actual restaurant because it was illegal, but I negotiated my way with this guy and just begged him and just hawked him enough where he gave me a job as a greeter. I was able to open up the front door for customers when they walk in. When they first get there, the first person you see was me, and I'm like, "Hello, welcome to Olive Garden." That was really my first real legit job when I was in nine, no, seventh, eighth grade, something really ... I was young, where I remember people in my neighborhood be like coming to the restaurant and be like, "What are you doing here?" It was very odd.

Bobbi Rebell:
But it sounds like you were actually really proud to be earning money, even at that young age. You weren't embarrassed about it. You were excited.

Jen Cohen:
Oh, God. No. I loved it. I always loved having my own money. I always loved having that option, never having to ask my mom or whoever. If I wanted something, I would have it, but here's a caveat. I would never spend my money, so all of this was for me to have savings. It wasn't for me to actually buy stuff. I've never been a very materialistic person. It's really about having in my head knowing that I had that backup, having that security blanket. I would literally save everything.

Jen Cohen:
Then through high school, through college, I always had multiple jobs just so I had it where very comfortable later on, but it was never about that. I've been very rich, and I've been poor, or in the middle, but it's never been that story that's driven me. It's really about that I think one experience when I was a little girl that just has always been subconsciously in my brain where I'm driven to make and create financial security just to have it.

Jennifer’s Money Lesson:

The takeaway is, A, number one, always spend below your means, not above, just so you have that ability, and find and figure out ways to save money. There's so many ways now. You can eat cheaply. You can figure out ways. You can work out for free. You can eat for less than $7 a day. There's a lot of ways to be crafty and resourceful if you want to be.

Jennifer’s Money Tip:

People can actually be much healthier on a very restricted budget. First of all, eating canned salmon. Canned salmon is automatically wild.

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't know that.

Jen Cohen:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
And wild salmon is better. That's not just a myth to charge you more at the store.

Jen Cohen:
Absolutely not. Farmed salmon has a lot of toxins and maybe a lot of mercury. It could have a lot of different things in it. That's why people say limit your fish intake to maybe once a week, twice at max.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and that wild salmon is really expensive near me.

Jen Cohen:
It's expensive everywhere, but if you buy canned salmon, just make sure you look on the can. If it says wild Alaskan, that can of salmon would be maybe $2.50 to $3 at most, and that's higher quality than salmon that you would buy that would normally cost about $14 a pound anywhere else, maybe $17 a pound, depending on where you live. That is the perfect portion. That in itself is a meal.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you usually eat it? Do you put it on a salad? What do you do with it usually?

Jen Cohen:
You could do anything. You could put it on a salad. You could actually ... When I'm starving and I need something to satiate me, I could just take the can of salmon, mash it a little bit of Vegenaise or mayonnaise whatever you'd like, or just put it in a bowl or whatever, eat out of the can as a snack. When I was on a budget I would eat that all the time, and I still eat that.

Jen Cohen:
The other thing is frozen vegetables. Frozen vegetables are a higher quality-sourced produce than what you find at the store because by the time it's at the store, it's been sitting on trucks, it's already half rotten. When you buy frozen vegetables, they flash-freeze them when it's at its peak, so the quality is better.

Bobbi Rebell:
So frozen vegetables, but not canned vegetables? What's the difference there?

Jen Cohen:
Listen. Canned corn, there's nothing wrong with canned corn. I mean, the reality is this: I don't like canned vegetables as much because I think when you do that in the cans, they have to add sodium. I try to stay away from that, but when it's the frozen vegetables, it's typically just the vegetable in itself flash-freeze in a bag so there's no added anything. It's just the vegetables. Canned vegetables typically have to have a preservative to keep it because it's not frozen, and also added salt. That's why I choose to have the frozen vegetables.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that all.

Jen Cohen:
And frozen fruit, by the way, too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, and I do that in smoothies a lot, actually. I did that even today in a smoothie.

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

Don't be a food snob. Jen talked about eating frozen veggies and canned fish and how, quote, "fresh" isn't always better even if it's organic. Oh, my goodness. Could you imagine? Organic not being the absolute best? You need to pay attention. You can really get burned paying up for all that so-called fresh food because when you take away all those chemicals, which you should, we don't want the chemicals on our food, of course, but sometimes, the shelf life is just really short.

Recently, I splurged on these organic grapes at Whole Foods, and they went bad so fast. I had paid $8 for a bunch because I really wanted the grapes and I wanted to feel like I was eating healthy, and they barely lasted. That is also, by the way, a reason not to go shopping with your kids because I was with my son, and he also felt we should get the grapes, even though they were really expensive, and it's really hard to say no to a kid with they ask for food that's actually not junk food. Even if it's not the absolute healthiest fruit, it's not junk food, and that hard not to encourage, so try to leave your kids at home when you shop, although that's not always realistic.

Financial grownup tip number two:

The power of persuasion is very real. Good for Jen. Jen really shouldn't have been working at the Olive Garden at age 12 because it was not actually fully legal, but she got her way because she was creative and she found a way to get to yes with a reluctant manager and find a way to work there without technically working there and not technically breaking the law. That was a great lesson for all of us, Jen. Be persuasive and find a way around obstacles.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Jennifer’s website - jennifercohen.com

• How to save money and cut calories on your morning coffee from Starbucks

• Jen's book Badass Body Goals

Follow Jennifer!

• Instagram - @TheRealJenCohen

• Twitter - @TheRealJenCohen

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Bobbi reveals her favorite new money related books for financial grownups, and how to decide if they are right for you. This month’s picks include Becoming Super Woman: A Simple 12-Step Plan to Go from Burnout to Balance by Nicole Lapin. Money for the Rest of Us: 10 Questions to Master Successful Investing by David Stein, and Pay off Your Debt for Good: 21 Days to Change Your Relationship with Money & Improve Your Sending Habits So You Can Get Out of Debt Fast by Jen Smith.  

Book #1: Becoming Super Woman: A Simple 12-Step Plan to Go from Burnout to Balance by Nicole Lapin

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-If you look at Nicole’s social media and the content she puts out- she looks like the total perfect person you and I will never be. This book gets real about what’s going on behind the scenes. It's a book about burnout from someone who not only has been totally burned out, but who admitted to being so burned out while writing the book about burnout that she delayed the books release. 

-while there is definitely the familiar take care of yourself vibe, Nicole gives extremely specific things you can do - including worksheets and exercises, to actually fix the problems and streamline your life. And some are super easy to do - but we just don’t seem to think of doing them- at least I don’t. Things as simple as deleting apps that waste time. Why not, It’s not like they won’t have you back. Remove the temptation. There’s a ton of simple obvious but not obvious stuff that will literally make you feel a weight off your shoulders. 

-She flips the switch on a lot of things we buy into. For example: don’t just have a to do list- have a done list so you can appreciate your progress. And I loved this Mark Twain quote she included- “never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow.” Because seriously, the world will not end if you don’t do it all. 

Who is this book for? 

Besides this being an excellent book for you if you are feeling burned out- It’s also a book that your hyper over achievers friends could probably use- on the outside, but who you worry don’t know when to stop themselves. Rather than a direct intervention- gifting a book can be a subtle hint that you are worried they aren’t taking enough care of themselves. So on that note a great holiday gift book. 

Book #2: Money for the Rest of Us: 10 Questions to Master Successful Investing by David Stein

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

-David is a natural teacher but his style is inviting and accepting. He doesn’t keep it super simple- but he invites you to re-read chapters when the material is dense. This is not a page turner, and not a book you can read while multi-tasking- and because of that you will learn a lot from it. Stein will literally make you smarter. 

-The book speaks to all levels of investing- it is simple enough for beginners- who are willing to really focus. But the concepts are sometimes sophisticated which is something many mainstream books are lacking.

-David makes great use of storytelling, which can help bring complicated concepts to life and resonate with readers. 

Who is this book for? 

The book largely summarizes a lot of the concepts that fans of his podcast are already familiar with- but the written format and the way it is organized adds a new dimension.  

David is just really good at taking complicated topics and making making them accessible. A lot of books out there rehash the same lessons we’ve all heard- this book simply operates at a higher level, and the reader will literally know more about investing and be able to apply those lessons to their long term financial plans.  

Book #3: Pay off Your Debt for Good: 21 Days to Change Your Relationship with Money & Improve Your Sending Habits So You Can Get Out of Debt Fast by Jen Smith.

Here’s what I liked about it: 

-The focus of the book is on habits. There’s no quick fix here but there are proven strategies that are realistic. 

-Jen is sunshine on a cloudy day. Jen has a positivity about her that shines in her writing and can really motivate people in what is really an often depressing situation. Jen has herself paid off a mountain of debt 78-thousand dollars in jus 23 months- so she doesn’t judge- and her experience and empathy come through 

-This book is part of an ecosystem so there is complimentary support everywhere you turn, from the blog, to the email newsletter you can sign up for and of course the podcast. You feel like you are part of a community with a great cheerleader. 

Who is this book right for:

This is a book that is designed to solve a problem: debt. So if you have debt, this is for you. 

If you are part of the debt free community- or are working on what has come to be known as the FIRE movement- that stands for Financial Independence Retire Early- you are 100% the target audience here and you will love this book. That said, who can’t benefit from some no bs talk about getting rid of debt- or making sure you don’t get into debt. 

Episode Links:

Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

Nicole Lapin’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Becoming Super Woman: A Simple 12-Step Plan to Go from Burnout to Balance

David Stein’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Money for the Rest of Us: 10 Questions to Master Successful Investing

Jen Smith’s Financial Grownup episode + Get your copy of Pay off Your Debt for Good: 21 Days to Change Your Relationship with Money & Improve Your Sending Habits So You Can Get Out of Debt Fast

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Just in time for the holidays, Jen Smith, co-host of the Frugal Friends podcast and the author of the new book "Pay Off Your Debt For Good" joins us with her spending strategies so we can all shop like Financial Grownups.

3 strategies to spend money like a Financial Grownup

1. Focus on your habits

2. Figure out what you value

3. Let go of guilt and shame

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Jen’s Website - www.modernfrugality.com

• Jen’s podcast The Frugal Friends Podcast

• Jen’s new book - Pay Off Your Debt For Good

Follow Jen!

• Instagram - @modernfrugality

• Facebook - @modernfrugality

• Twitter - @modernfrugality

• Pinterest - @modernfrugality

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Journalist and author Nicole Lapin shares a hilarious story of how a lack of preparation almost led to total humiliation.  Plus why procrastination can be a good thing for financial grownups.

Nicole’s Money Story:

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. I started as a business reporter on the floor of the Chicago Merc when I was 18 years old, and when I was asked if I knew anything about money news or business news, I totally lied, and I faked it till I made it. And then I had to become real, because I found that money is just a language like anything else, and I could not speak that language. So I was going to interview the founders of a tech company at the time and my boss, who was awesome, said to me as I ran out the door, and I would always carry like a big diaper bag, almost combat ready with all sorts of stuff, like a poncho just in case, from my time in actual general news, I didn't know what would happen. I was combat ready. And he was like, "Do you have the P&L?" You know, a lot of people call me NL or Lapin for short.

Nicole Lapin:
And I was like, "No dude, I'm good. I don't need to pee." And I get to the interview and the PR person was like, "Do you have the P&L?" And I'm like, okay, think, Lapin, think. She is not asking you if you need to pee, this must be a money term. I sit down with the founders, and they're like, our profits, as you can see from our P&L, you know, blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, okay, okay, has to do with profits, think, think, think. Profits. L, losses. And I kept saying PnL, like Kibbles 'n Bits, and I didn't even know it was an and. Like, I just was so clueless, and that was a great example of how I had to think about this right on the spot and definitely was not prepared.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, so what happened? How did this play out? Did you have an aha moment in the middle of the interview?

Nicole Lapin:
I had the aha moment, and I knew enough that it had to do with their balance sheet, and so I could sort of dance around it and get through the interview. Then after that I wrote down PnL, like N for Nicole, and then it took me another hot minute to realize there was an and sign. It was like profits and losses.

Bobbi Rebell:
At the time, did you confess to anyone? Did you tell your boss, "I didn't know what that meant," or did you just keep going?

Nicole Lapin:
No, no, no, no, no. I just had super intense imposter syndrome, and I just thought everyone was going to figure out that I didn't know what I was talking about, and I would have never, ever admitted at the time that I couldn't speak this language. I only now can talk about this, very gladly in hindsight. I love making fun of myself with the most embarrassing money stories, but no, definitely not at the time.

“Money is an intimidating language. It’s ok if you can’t speak the language. Just ask what something means.”

Nicole’s Money Lesson:

Nicole Lapin:
I think realizing that money is an intimidating language. We just don't have a Rosetta Stone for this growing up. And it's okay if you can't speak the language. Just ask what something means. I've talked to COs of major publicly traded companies who have asked me like what does [inaudible 00:06:00] mean, for example, like right before we went on the air, and I was like, "Dude, it's just the bond buyback program." Like, no big deal. And they were like, "Yeah, I just didn't know the terminology." And so there's lots of terminology that sounds confusing. If you went to China and you didn't speak Chinese, you'd be confused. If you went to Wall Street and you didn't speak the language of money, you would be confused, too.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I love that you're saying that, because so many of us kind of nod and pretend we understand something and maybe make decisions that we shouldn't make, because we don't want to admit that we don't get it.

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah, totally. And you're definitely not alone. I think a lot of people smile and nod and don't join basic money conversations because they're too intimidated and too scared to admit that they don't know what's going on.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And by the way, your website and your books are a tremendous resource for understanding a lot of this stuff.

“I aim for progress and not perfection. If I have more good days than bad days then I am totally winning.”

Nicole’s Money Tip:

Nicole Lapin:
I like to rethink conventional financial wisdom, conventional business wisdom. And yes, you're right. I rewrite financial dictionaries and business dictionaries. I did it in the back of Rich (beep) and Boss (beep). This is maybe why I'm single. But at the end of every chapter in every book, I rethink conventional wisdom to hopefully help you think for yourself. And procrastination is often used as a bad word. It's used as something that you should avoid, but I actually think that you can not fully procrastinate, because it's so cathartic to cross out all the things on your to-do list, like, here we go, dry cleaning, you know, pick up this, blah blah blah blah blah. And actually, those things might not move you towards your goals. So if you remind yourself of what you're working toward and what you have to do and almost connect the dots, I came up with a Super Woman journal that's a companion journal along with Becoming Super Woman to help you do that throughout the day, and I create this point system that's almost like a weight loss sort of system that allows you to give yourself points for things you're focusing on and forgive yourself first if you're not focusing on just the then and there. Because I think we can have it all. We just can't do it all, especially not at the same time.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And another thing that I love about the book is you have these really compelling quotes. For example, related to what we were just talking about, you have a quote from Mark Twain, "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow," which makes a lot of sense when you really think about the reasoning behind it.

Nicole Lapin:
Yeah. If you have to pick up your dry cleaning or something, and you need to get something done that will move you toward making your side hustle your full time hustle, I would do that and then get your dry cleaning, unless you really have like nothing, nothing to wear. I would do that later on.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing in the book that I love is that you have not just a to-do list, but a have done list.

Nicole Lapin:
Yes. Because, you know, we often get into this mode of we've just not accomplished anything, and we're not doing anything compared to everybody else on Instagram. And I think comparison is the thief of joy, and also we tend to compare ourselves to the best version of each aspect of our lives. So we compare our fitness regime to a fitness blogger who works out five hours a day, or our mommy life to that of a mommy YouTuber who bakes bread for her kids and homeschools them. That's not realistic. And so if we get into that cycle and we don't have the definition of what success is to us, we often feel inadequate. We shouldn't.

Bobbi Rebell:
No, we should not feel inadequate. But one thing that you also work through in the book is you have specific plans for people to organize and get towards those goals in a realistic way, not in a way where you're trying to keep up with somebody, like you were just talking about.

“Comparison is the thief of joy”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

We didn't get to this in the interview, but a lot of Nicole's advice focuses on productivity and avoiding distraction and all the stress that that causes, and of course spending time when you didn't mean to on things. For example, she recommends a browser extension called unroll.me. It's free, and I am now using it. I will leave a link in the show notes. You can always find the show notes by going to bobbirebell.com and then going to the Financial Grownup podcast area. There's also a handy search box in the upper right hand corner, where you can always just type in the guest name or any keyword, but definitely check out unroll.me.

Financial grownup tip number two:

Another one from Nicole's book was to keep emails to five sentences. If it has to be longer than five sentences, then it deserves a phone call. I'm going to start trying that in my workflow. We'll see how it goes, but if you do it, too, let me know how it goes.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Nicole’s website - nicolelapin.com

• Nicole’s book Becoming Super Woman

Follow Nicole!

• Instagram - @nicolelapin

• Facebook - @NicoleLapin

• Twitter - @NicoleLapin

• YouTube - @NicoleLapin

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

David Stein shares a sneak peak of the investing strategies from his new book, including how to differentiate between investing, speculating and gambling. He also discusses why you need to know who is on the other side of a trade, and the key factors that will make an investment profitable. 

3 Best Investing Tips

1. Know if a financial opportunity is investing, speculating or gambling

2. Know who is on the other side of the trade

3. Know what it takes to be successful

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• David’s website - moneyfortherestofus.com

• David’s book Money For The Rest Of Us

Follow David!

• Instagram - @moneyfortherestofus

• Facebook - @moneyfortherestofus

• Twitter - @jdstein

• YouTube - @MoneyFortheRestofUs

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Ghost writer Stephanie Krikorian trusted a financial planner with her investments after a big layoff a decade ago. But years later discovered blind trust was costing her, and learned to read the paperwork, and take grownup ownership of her money strategy.  

Stephanie's money story:

Steph Krikorian:
So, basically, I get laid off and I did two quick things. I refinanced while I still had a paycheck coming in, because rates were down and they hadn't been for awhile. I thought that was a smart thing to do. Secondly, I went to this financial planner and merged several 401ks, because I had been at several jobs and never really paid much attention to it. I always put in the max that I could, et cetera. But I thought, "This will help me move it, and then I can focus on finding a job or starting a business, whichever I'm going to do."

Steph Krikorian:
I remember meeting with this financial planner and asking a very specific question, "How are you paid?" My understanding when I left that meeting, and I interview people for a living, so I feel fairly confident I was given a certain answer and didn't make that mistake, but maybe I did, my understanding was the payment for the financial planner was based on money I made, so that if I made 10%, the financial planner was paid a percentage of that. So, I do all these things, and I am on my own little austerity program. I'm doing a single pump of shampoo. You can read about all the crazy things I did to not waste money while I was trying to, you know, make sure I didn't overspend. ,I was trying to stay on my budget. I invested. I knew I had to save. Even when there was no money coming in, even though I cut everything else out, I scraped together a certain amount of money.

Steph Krikorian:
So, in the meantime, I start going on the Zen Bender, because I start reading self-help books. I've reinvented myself. I start reading self-help books. I start getting obsessed-

Bobbi Rebell:
This is all because you're ghostwriting a lot of them too, so you're really immersing yourself in your material.

Steph Krikorian:
That's how it started. I really was immersing myself in the material, because everybody has a book idea, and then they say, "Oh, it's like the Suze Orman of such and such or the Marie Kondo of such and such." So, I was reading for research, but as I read, I also got a little obsessed, because I said, "Oh my God. There's all these fixes out there. I must have all these holes in my life to fill. I'm single. I'm thick around the middle, because everyone wants to lose a few pounds. I'm trying to figure out my career." So, I started grasping at all these things a little more than necessary, as per the research.

Steph Krikorian:
So, I take my eye off the ball of what I think I had set up with the financial planner, and I spend hoards of money on Reiki, and rainbow healers, and dating coaches. You know, I could've basically probably gone to law school instead and done something productive. But all of this time I think, "You know, I've made my budget. I'm following the rules. I'm being careful." But somewhere in all that mishmash, kind of the point of the Zen Bender was I lost a little bit of confidence. I stopped trusting my gut and I kind of took my eye off the ball of the important things and ceded a lot of power to these ... you know, this dating coach who's telling me, "You've got to wear high heels and have shiny hair in order to find a husband, because he'll think you're fertile, and he'll want to marry you."

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. And probably very expensive heels too.

Steph Krikorian:
[inaudible 00:06:24] I got $200 a pop, but if you do five, then of course X,Y,Z is going to happen. The doors will open up. I had started treating my business like a business. Even though it's writing, I formed an LLC. I have a lawyer. I outsource things like copy editing, because I wanted to only do the work that was mission-critical. So, I was making enough money. It wasn't like I was on my credit card doing this stuff. You know? There were lean years the first couple of years. Then I started getting on my feet and I started making enough money.

Steph Krikorian:
Somewhere in there I have a call from my financial planner. Also, in fairness, if I step back and look at it, she gave me a couple of pieces of advice which were, "Sell all your stock from your first job," which was General Electric stock, which at the time was not a good suggestion, and, "Dump this apartment, even at a loss." I disregarded both pieces of advice. I was not going to dump that apartment at a loss. I was going to make my payments, and I was going to save it, that investment. So, I didn't take that warning sign, you know? That should have made me a little nervous, and it didn't, because I knew better. I'd worked in financial news, like you, and I knew that wasn't right. Every year I'm putting together the maximum I can scrape in and put in, but nothing's really moving in the fund. I'm in one of those funds as you age, you know, with the term and the end.

Bobbi Rebell:
The target date fund, which sometimes have double fees. Sometimes those can be very expensive.

Steph Krikorian:
Right. It didn't seem to be doing a lot, and I thought, "Oh, it must just be the time, you know. Whatever." So, we have this call and she suggests, since I've reached a certain milestone, she explains there's this, you know, almost like a fund of funds with these various ETFs in the same thing. It sort of ages as you go and it's really something to consider. I said, "Okay. Great. I guess so. Sure." She said, "And the fee is so much less. It's almost half,| or whatever. I say, "Oh, what's the fee been generally, because it shouldn't ... you know, we haven't made a lot of money, so it couldn't possibly be very high." She tells me the percentage, and I do the math, and I get furious.

Steph Krikorian:
I'm like, "Wait a minute. You're charging more out of my fund than I'm depositing every year. You should have seen that." You know, she said, "Well, I don't keep track of who's putting in more or who's not." I'm like, "That's your single job. That's like your only job, to be ... Maybe you should've stopped and said, 'Hey. I don't think you need to be in here. Just go to Fidelity and buy a fund.'" I was mad at her, but honestly I was more mad at myself, because the one thing I probably should have spent the time on was understanding what was going on there. But I got so lost in the haze of all the chaos and life change that was happening, that I trusted the professional to handle it, and I don't think ... She didn't do anything negligent or anything like that. She did what she told me she would do. It's just I didn't double check. I think you have to stay on top of these things, because the single most important thing is your money, period. It really is.

“Nobody reads the fine print. So you have to do your own annual or semi-annual check in and now I do. I check very rigorously all my financial statements. ”

Stephanie’s money lesson:

Steph Krikorian:
Double check, double check, double check, and then quarterly, when you have those check-ins, check, and maybe you're smarter than the experts. Maybe if you're in a single fund, investigate the other ways to invest in that single fund, so that you don't pay the load that you're paying a financial planner,` who has much wealthier clients to make money off of.

Bobbi Rebell:
Was she a fiduciary? Do you know? Was she a CFP? Was she a fiduciary?

Steph Krikorian:
Yup. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bobbi Rebell:
Really?

Steph Krikorian:
Yeah. It was a big firm and all. She wasn't doing anything wrong. She did her job.

Bobbi Rebell:
And she informed you. You just didn't hear I guess is what you're saying.

Steph Krikorian:
I misunderstood at the beginning and I was an early client.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're a financial journalist.

Steph Krikorian:
I know.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness, Stephanie. What hope is there for everybody else?

Steph Krikorian:
I know, and I wonder. I was an early client of hers, and she was just starting out. I liked her, because she was woman and she was new, and people were giving me a chance, and I gave her a chance. I still don't regret that, but I think, you know, these things aren't transparent. You can't tell how much you pay. In fairness to anybody, it's hard to tell what percentage you're paying in these things. So, I think you have to ask those questions regularly, because things also change, and nobody reads the fine print. So, you have to do your own annual or semi-annual check-in, and now I do. I check very rigorously all my financial statements. I check my bank account to see ... You know, my bank account got hacked. If I didn't check as frequently as I did, I would never have known. So, you-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness.

Steph Krikorian:
It did. Yeah. They had my name. They had my bank account. Must've been off a piece of paper or a bill. They were trying to get in there. They didn't get anything. But, so, you have to always check. Nothing to do with your money should ever be on autopilot, even paying your bills. You know, you can miss a bill, because autopilot is not the way to go, and that's for your financial planning and your daily accounts. You got to keep a tally.

“Walking solves all my problems… It helps creatively, it helps anxiety.. and saves some money. ”

Stephanie's everyday money tip:

Steph Krikorian:
So, you can get really caught up into these things. The average price for any of these sessions is $200. It's very easy to get-

Bobbi Rebell:
For what? I'm sorry. $200 for what?

Steph Krikorian:
Like Reiki, the astrologist, acupuncture. $200 seems to be the going rate of 2019, and buying five packs is very easy to get caught up. I would say this. Try anything, because there's a placebo effect or you find it inspiring. Try anything once. Don't buy the five packs. Just try it and see, and then step away and think of it. Don't get caught up in it. But more importantly, what I found, after all of the sessions, and all of the coaches, and thousands of dollars on a dating coach, I'm still single.

Steph Krikorian:
All the diets I tried and paid for and I think of how much per pound I've spent trying to lose the same 5, 10 pounds. Go for a walk, and then go for another walk, and then walk for more, longer, longer, longer. Walking solves all my problems, and it took me ... I knew that at the beginning, and then I didn't figure it out until the end, but it helps creatively. It helps anxiety. It does the same trick as some of this other stuff does, and it helps you work out, and it's good for your health, and so do that. That's my suggestion. Save some money. Do everything that you want to do, but just once in a while. Don't go on a Zen Bender, like I did, and hit it all hard, all at once, all the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Amazing advice, and it's so true about walking. I get all my best ideas when I'm walking. It's also a great way to socialize, instead of going somewhere and spending money on food that will cost you money and weight.

Steph Krikorian:
What was the scariest thing to write? Oh, a lot of it was scary. It set out to be a book on humor, you know, a humor book on all these crazy things I tried, and then as I wrote it, I'm like thinking, "Well, why did I do that?" I think a couple of things, quickly, how much weight has held me back in life. You know, we all wish we were a little thinner I think. I don't know. I can't speak for everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
Me.

Steph Krikorian:
I think-

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm raising my hand.

Steph Krikorian:
Exactly. And we all wish that we could drop a few pounds, and I spent a little bit too much time obsessing about that. That was sort of disappointing, and I was surprised I was able to put that on the page, because I really don't like to talk about it. I think being single, you know, I kind of likened the dating at ... I'm 50 now, but this whole book took place in my 40s. It's like shopping at Marshall's or T.J.Maxx. Everything is picked over. It's like seconds right now. So, that was a lot for me to talk about. You know, I had a hard time with that.

Steph Krikorian:
The realization I came to through writing and through discussing it is that after doing the Marie Kondo, I Marie Kondo'd, the living crap out of my house, including my freezer, did the doors open up? I don't know, but I learned to say no to things that didn't bring me joy. I don't think that was her intent in the book. I think that was, as interesting as ... It wasn't a hard to write about that, but it was an interesting learning experience for me that that takeaway kind of came through the process of trying to be funny about folding my socks, rolling my socks a certain way, that all of a sudden I realized, wow, I have a hard time saying no to things. Now, I'm a little better at it.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're all working on that. I think that's a big theme these days is sometimes it's okay to just decline an invitation, even if you don't have a conflict. Just say, "I'm sorry. I can't make it," and don't elaborate.

Steph Krikorian:
Exactly.

“After doing the Marie Kondo..  I learned to say no to things that didn’t bring me joy.. that takeaway kind of came through the process of rolling my socks a certain way that I realized I have a hard time saying no to things.”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one.:

Buy what you want if you want to be trying things. That's always all good. But when Stephanie talks about buying the five packs, that applies to pretty much any upsell that you get in life. Yes. You do get a better price per item, but you also get more items than you want or need.

Financial grownup tip number two:

If you aren't sure that you understand how someone controlling your money gets paid, keep asking until you are beyond 100% sure. Stephanie is educated and smart and was literally writing about money for her job, but she made assumptions that were not correct.

As a financial grownup, I love that she takes ownership that maybe she didn't understand what she thought she did. It can happen to any of us, if it can happen to Stephanie. Read, and reread, and then, as Stephanie recommends, go do regular check-ins, as she now does, and of course be careful with automation. It is a great tool for regular bills and such, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be checking as well. How are you doing on this front? Do you understand how people or companies that hold your money ore paid? Is free really free if there are maybe commissions or fees in there that you may not know about. Maybe they're disclosed in very tiny print, because if something is truly free, well, then how is the company making money? You need to ask what is going on on the other side.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Stephanie’s website http://stephaniekrikorian.com/

• Stephanie’s book ZenBender

Follow Stephanie!

• Instagram - @stephiekrik

• Facebook - @skrikorian

• Twitter - @stephiekrik

• LinkedIn - @stephaniekrikorian

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.