Susan McPherson, author of the new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships shares 5 specific tips to connect and intentionally leverage your network of friends and colleagues. 

Susan’s 5 Easy Tips for Daily Connection

#1 - Spend a little bit of time reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

#2 - Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener. For those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila! No more FOMO.

#3 - Ask questions. To truly build connection, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

#4- Let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and more reliable fashion.

#5- Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - Create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it.

#2 - Make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day.

Get your copy of The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Business Relationships today!

Follow Susan!

• Instagram - @susanmcp1

• Twitter- @susanmcp1

• LinkedIn- Susan McPherson

• Website- www.mcpstrategies.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

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Full Transcript:

Susan McPherson: This is a way of leading yourself professionally and personally, to be of support because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, and you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Hey friends, today's show is going to put a smile on your face. This week's financial grownup is my dear friend, Susan McPherson. She is back to share her pandemic project, and that is her new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships. Susan is the founder and CEO of McPherson Strategies, a communications consultancy that focuses on the intersection of brands and social impact. When not in quarantine, Susan's a prominent speaker at top conferences around the globe. She's also a contributor to the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company and Forbes, and you've probably seen or heard her or read her work in the media everywhere from NPR to CNN, to USA today, the New Yorker, New York Magazine and The Los Angeles Times and many more. She is also an angel investor, and if we're going to cut to the chase, she is huge on social media. By the way, fun fact, Susan has run six marathons.

Bobbi Rebell: Her book, for us, could not come at a more perfect time. As I read the book, I got so many ideas of things that I can do to specifically enjoy spending time with people and frankly, being a better friend and being a more effective person in my business and professional relationships and just enjoying it all more. And a reminder, you're going to be tempted to take notes but please focus your attention on the gems that Susan shares. We've got a summary for you right on my website, BobbiRebell.com. Just go to the Financial Grownup Podcast dropdown menu and when you click on Susan's episode, you'll see that summary, along with all the links you need and below that, a full transcript. Here is Susan McPherson. Susan McPherson, welcome back. You are a financial grownup. We're so happy to have you here again.

Susan McPherson: Bobbi, I couldn't pick a better place to be.

Bobbi Rebell: We are going to be talking about your new book, The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships and what better time than now when we are just on the cusp, I hope, oh please, I hope of getting out of this debacle that has been quarantine, COVID-19 and the last year, right?

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. But I have to say, if anything, over this last year, one thing we all have realized is how much we miss human connection.

Bobbi Rebell: So true, and you are the ultimate connector. I mean, literally so funny because at the beginning of this book, you talk about the fact that some people have called you a human CRM app and that's so true.

Susan McPherson: It is something I have loved all my life so what better than to excel at something that you love doing?

Bobbi Rebell: Well as someone that has personally benefited from your generosity and your graciousness and your giving nature, I can just, first of all, attest to the truth of that. You did bring with you five practical tips for daily connection with colleagues, neighbors, and others in your community and network. That's the formal name, but you know what? Really we're talking about how to reset after everything that's been going on. What's your first tip?

Susan McPherson: Spend a little bit of time now, reflecting and thinking about what it is you want to accomplish when you emerge. Do some old fashion navel-gazing and think about the communities and the people you want to surround you because you do have this opportunity now.

Bobbi Rebell: Very well said, what is your second tip?

Susan McPherson : Maybe it's time to forget FOMO, that fear of missing out and instead create JOMO, which is a little bit different than what you may think. Instead of the joy of missing out, it's actually the joy of meeting others. As we return to a sense of normalcy, consider becoming a convener, and I will say for those of you who tend to be more introverted, this does not mean you have to gather a hundred people. You can create a convening of four friends or four colleagues and ask them to each bring one and voila, no more FOMO.

Bobbi Rebell: I love that, and it reminds me, and we're going to digress just for a moment of part of your book, where you talk about creating rituals, something our mutual friend, Erica Keswin talks about in her latest book, but that could be part of getting that done, of JOMO.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely. It doesn't all have to be sitting around, having cocktails. You can gather groups for taking a walk and talk. You can gather groups for a cooking class. Again, we've been doing this in some shape, way or form online, but now you have an opportunity to actually potentially maybe by the summer in small groups, doing it in real life.

Bobbi Rebell: Oh, we all can't wait for that. What is your third tip?

Susan McPherson: Well, and this is a big component of the book and it's ask. Ask questions. To truly build connection, first, I would highly recommend learning the art of the ask. Have five or six questions at the ready, that will help you elicit meaningful responses from those you are chatting with. So instead of just talking about yourself, start asking people questions, not about the weather, not about what they had for lunch today, but how they honestly are doing, or how have they fared during the last 12 months and what are they looking forward to, in the next 12 months?

Bobbi Rebell: And one underlying theme in your book, by the way, is the importance of curiosity.

Susan McPherson: Yes. And to me, it's a drug and a positive drug because it is curiosity that leads you to the path to understand and appreciate people for where they are and see people, and most importantly, that curiosity helps you then to be able to follow up and be supportive.

Bobbi Rebell: Which is another big theme in your book, and that brings us to your fourth tip.

Susan McPherson: Yes, well, it's important of course, to ask, but we won't be successful at asking if we don't know how to listen. So number four is, let's step up our listening skills and believe it or not, something like 75% of the time, most of us are distracted and that's partially due to all the devices and all of just the daily mayhem, that every one of us lives through. But I carry a notebook with me now, and maybe that's just a sign of my aging feeble brain, but more importantly, it helps me remember when somebody tells me something about themselves and therefore I'm able to follow up, in a more expedient and probably more reliable fashion.

Bobbi Rebell: That really is everything, and so let's talk about following up and let's get to your fifth tip.

Susan McPherson: My fifth tip is essentially that. Once you've listened, after asking the important questions, the followup is vitally important because that establishes trust. It establishes reliability and dependability, all the things that you want to be, professionally and probably personally as well. So if you truly listen and go so far as take notes, you will have all the tools you need to actually artfully follow up and be effective. I want to just caveat all of this, Bobbi, this isn't about putting everyone else before you, but this is a way of leading yourself, professionally and personally, to be of support, because it all will come back. It will all come back around and I can honestly say the dopamine you get, and you know this Bobbi, you support so many women and men and probably children. That notion, it feels really good to be helping others.

Bobbi Rebell: That reminds me of some advice that your father gave you growing up that really still resonates with you and really hit home for me.

Susan McPherson: Yes, and that was to always ask first how you can be of help, before stepping up and doing.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah and what would be an example of how someone could put that into, I mean, what I love about this book also is it's so specific and practical, give us some examples first of that, of how someone would put that into their life. Then I'm going to try to squeeze it in one more question before we wrap.

Susan McPherson: Just a week ago, a dear friend of mine introduced me to a lovely woman who is trying to expand her portfolio. She and I had a 30 minute conversation, literally an hour after a conversation, I was able to introduce her to the executive director of an organization whose board I serve on, and literally the next day, she had an opportunity to actually lead a workshop for that organization. So that all happened within 24 hours. I didn't ask for anything in return. Having the conversation with this wonderful woman named Natalie, after that conversation, I was so impressed that I introduced her, again to the executive director of a board whose organization I serve on and was able to facilitate an opportunity for her. That was a perfect example of how it wasn't a huge lift on my part yet it enormously helped Natalie and it also helped the organization for which the board I serve on.

Bobbi Rebell: Absolutely, and it also goes to the fact that we get so busy in our lives, that we sometimes go through phases where we feel like we have to say no to even have time to breathe, and then you have to balance that, because you also have some good advice, you say, "Always take the meeting." Tell us more about that and why that is so important.

Susan McPherson: Well, I have the proof in the pudding for that, and that is, my company is now eight years old and seven years in, I realized that 98% of our business had been inbound, which is pretty remarkable for a consulting firm. I realized that in my twenties and thirties, all those meetings I took, that were yes, challenging at times because of course I was busy, those people came back 20, 30 years later, and it wasn't like when I was 25, I was saying, "Oh, I'm going to be calling on you in 2020 when I have a company, to see if you'll buy services from me." It was not even a glimmer in my brain. So every single person we meet is a conduit to something else, to someone else, to something new, to learn something about ourselves, and if we don't open those doors and we don't take those meetings, we are missing tremendous opportunities. I fervently believe that, and I live that every day.

Bobbi Rebell: It's so true. So many major things in my life have happened by almost chance meetings, little meetings that you didn't think were going to be meaningful, and then they do end up having a huge impact sometimes right then, as in the case you described earlier and sometimes not for years later, and that's also important. They're true friendships. The final thing I wanted to just touch on is you talk about expressing gratitude and that's something that sometimes gets lost in the hustle and bustle. I've certainly been guilty of not always properly thanking everyone that's done amazing things for me. It's tough. We get so busy and so distracted and are just keeping up with the world, certainly as we get back into, hopefully some sense of normalcy now. Talk to me more about expressing gratitude and specific ways that people can do that.

Susan McPherson : Don't overthink it. Sometimes just a quick phone call, a quick text, a DM, shining a light on socials, showcasing someone else. Those are all very immediate, quick and simple and easy. You don't have to go so far as sending flowers or sending cookies, although that's certainly a wonderful thing to do, but whatever is going to be the most expedient way, sometimes, is the best way, because that's the way it'll get done. But I think it's important to plan one bit of gratitude, every single day, and that includes gratitude for yourself.

Bobbi Rebell: And as you mentioned earlier, it's important to give, but it's also important to be practical and also look out for yourself.

Susan McPherson: Absolutely.

Bobbi Rebell: Susan, this has been so wonderful. Tell us more about where people can find out more about you. We know your book is going to be on sale, literally everywhere. So I hope people will pick it up and continue to get all of these incredible gems. It is very readable. I will tell you that.

Susan McPherson: Aww.

Bobbi Rebell: It's precise, specific, practical in all the best ways, and yet it has the warmth of your personality in it. Where can people follow up with you, once they get the book?

Susan McPherson: First of all, I am glowing. Thank you so much. Hearing that from you means the world to me, Bobbi. I have so much respect for you personally, professionally. Thank you. You can find me at my company's website, McPStrategies.com. I'm on all the social platforms with the name @SusanMcP1 and of course the book can be purchased at your local bookstores or any of the major online booksellers, and I am grateful for you to give it a shot.

Bobbi Rebell: Thank you so much.

Susan McPherson: Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell: All right, guys, that was an awesome interview. Here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one, create a system to track those connections. Susan talked about carrying a notebook to jot things down about people so she doesn't forget. I'm going to write that down, to come up with a system for myself, because if I had a notebook, I'd probably misplace the notebook, but I'm going to come up with a system, probably something on my phone, because even though I tend to lose my phone, I do always seem to find it, but you get the idea and by the way, feel free to send me your suggestions for how I can implement Susan's methodology for this, but we're going to go with the phone for now.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial grownup tip number two, make it personal. So Susan talked about reaching out to a handful of people each day. I've been on the receiving end of this from Susan and it's awesome. She sends these photos from gatherings that she's had with me in it with a quick, "Thinking of you." Takes probably a moment on her time, but it totally makes my day. So I want to ask you guys, what little things make big impacts on your days? DM me on Instagram, @BobbiRebell1, I would love more ideas. And while you're at it, help me give away some incredible books.

Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com, and if you enjoy the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

How To Fund Your Dream Project

Learn how to optimize a kickstarter campaign, and the big mistake that slipped through the cracks for entrepreneur and personal finance teacher Rob Phelan- including how he raised more than double his goal and published his children’s book with almost no financial risk.

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Follow Rob!

• Facebook - @TheSimpleStartUp

• Twitter - @ASimpleStartUp

• LinkedIn - @robphelan

• Website - www.thesimplestartup.com

• Rob’s book - M is for Money

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates, if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Rob Phelan:
All people need to see sometimes is that somebody else is doing it before they'll jump in and do it themselves. We love to do what other people are doing.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what, when it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hi, friends. Who among us doesn't have that dream project. We'd love to make time for, but we also need to make sure we've got the funds to pay for it ideally in advance. Well, in the opening clip, you heard entrepreneur and personal finance teacher, Rob Phelan, talking about the fact that he used, well, not quite peer pressure. Let's call it peer influence to get donors like myself on board his dream project before even the official Kickstarter campaign started. I have to say I was impressed, but as I've gotten to know, Rob, I'm not that surprised. After all he teaches this stuff. He has The Simple Startup, which teaches teens how to start a business. And his day job includes teaching high school kids about personal finance.

Bobbi Rebell:
But raising money on Kickstarter is not for the faint of heart. You need to know what you're doing. So we're going to get you there. Remember no need to take notes. I know you'll be tempted, but you can always just go to my website. It's just my name, bobbirebell.com for show notes, including a full transcript. We've got you covered. Here is Rob Phelan. Rob Phelan, You're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Rob Phelan:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I actually invited you on. I've been trying to get you on. I think this is our third attempt because you have a book coming out called M is for Money. It's a fantastic book for children. We're going to talk a little bit about the book, but then we're going to get to what I really want to talk about, which is that this was a dream project. And I want people to hear how you got this dream project funded, but first tell us about M is for Money.

Rob Phelan:
Yeah, M is for Money is a dream project that I brought to life over this past year. It is a children's book. So I'm a high school personal finance teacher, but I wrote a children's book targeted at three to eight year olds that is an ABCs of money book. So it's going to introduce kids to a new letter, a new focus word that has to do with money. And then it's also going to give them illustration and a mini story on every page that shows the money word in action. And the whole goal behind the book is to try and get kids to build a positive relationship with money and to start having conversations about it from a young age. So breaking this idea that money is something shameful, or embarrassing, or taboo, or not a table conversation. We're going to try and change that because if we get kids who are confident about money and confident in their ability to ask questions and find answers, they're by default going to make better money decisions as they get older and turn into adults.

Bobbi Rebell:
This was a dream of yours and you got really creative with the funding. You went to Kickstarter. I'm very proud to say I was someone that helped to fund this dream of yours. Tell us about how you funded it, why you went that way, and the dos and don'ts. Well, that was a lot. So start with just the beginning.

Rob Phelan:
In my other, other, other, other job, I'm a person who's a big proponent in multiple streams of income. So I have my own company called the Simple Startup where I have 10 to 18 year old young entrepreneurs start their first businesses. And one of the things that I preach to them, or I talk to them about is how do you start a business for free? And we think most 10 to 18 year olds, you don't have a ton of capital available. You're not getting a loan from anyone unless your parents are feeling bad for you. So we need to start for free, or we need to start really cheap. And one of the ways to do that is to pre-sell your value. And Kickstarter is one of these companies out there that allows you to do that. I had the idea, I came up with my first draft and then some very crew graphics.

Rob Phelan:
And I started with that and I started telling people, look, I'm going to do this Kickstarter. It's where you pre-sell the book, or the game, or whatever it is you're creating. And people come on and say, I'm really interested in seeing this thing come to life. I'm going to back this project. There's usually multiple tiers that they can back at. So the lowest being just a hard cover copy of the book. And then it goes up to donating multiple copies of the book to different title one schools or public libraries. You are one of the backers who came in at a very special secret reward tier. So that was by invitation only. Where you came in and your, I guess, what are we going to call it? Your merchandise, your brand is somewhere inside,

Bobbi Rebell:
Grownup gear.

Rob Phelan:
The book. It's yes, it is a Easter egg inside of the book. So it's a secret kind of in the background kind of thing, but people will eventually notice it. And that was a big thank you for the wonderful support you showed me at the beginning. But yeah, Kickstarter is the way that I chose to fund this book. So I didn't want to put a ton of my own money into this. I wanted to first test out the idea and see do people actually want it, so they don't give you their true opinion until you actually ask them for money.

Rob Phelan:
And then also could I raise enough to cover the illustration costs and the printing costs of getting an offset run done and then be able to donate. I wanted to donate at least 300 books to title one schools and public libraries. And I think we hit all of those goals. We smashed our goals. Our goal was $6,000 and we hit 13,704. So it was,

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Rob Phelan:
Phenomenal success and really gave me the, I guess, courage to go forward and say like, yes, people want this. Go for it. Let's bring it to life. Let's make it happen.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now it's interesting. So you say you needed $6,000. How did you come up with that figure? What was the backend budgeting ahead of time? How did you even know what this project would cost?

Rob Phelan:
So back in budgeting, it was pretty much predicting out costs. So I was able to figure out, okay, this is what printing would cost. And that's kind of, one of the ones that you have to think about is like, how much does it cost to print a book? And then you have to do it in quantities usually of like 500 or 1,000. So I knew at the very minimum, I was going to have to print 500 of these things and that was going to cost me about $3,000. And if I go up to $1,000, it would cost me five. So the economies of scale was great. You could do more books. And then the illustrator was a flat fee and I interviewed a couple of illustrators. And so I knew I needed about 1500 to cover illustrations. And then there's just like getting an ISBN number for a book, which I didn't realize was a cost, thing that you had to do and registering the Library of Congress.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, how does all this work? How did you find out what a illustrator costs, what the printing costs? I mean, what were your sources for this? Were you tapping into a network? Were you just Googling? I have a traditional publisher. I know nothing about any of this and I'm very curious.

Rob Phelan:
So I cheated a little bit and I hired an author coach for an independent author.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's not cheating, that's your strategy. You hired an... I know, but its true. That is the answer. You hired someone to create a shortcut to give you the information in a more efficient way than if you had spent the time kind of scrounging around looking for stuff. So that might be a good tip for people, is find an expert and then use that person's expertise to limit the amount of time you have to spend, because time is a currency. So you were able to do them. You have a two year old, you have a full time job, you have stuff going on.

Rob Phelan:
And I say cheated in the sense that I threw some of my own money at that first, but then I made it back in the Kickstarter. So I didn't do it totally for free upfront. I did throw some of my own money in, in the beginning to get started, knowing that I would make it back on the back end if the Kickstarter was successful, which I was very confident it would be.

Rob Phelan:
But the person I hired was M.K. Williams. She's the author of the Author Your Ambition series. So she's very big on helping independent authors just kind of go through the steps, kind of like I do with Simple Startup and helping people start the businesses, she helps independent authors to navigate the idea of like registering for ISBN numbers, registering with the Library of Congress. How do you get your book from the printer, so you can print your own copies, but how do you get it on like Amazon, or Target, or Barnes & Noble? How does that process work? She was the one who was kind of walking me through all those steps and just for a flat fee, which was great. So it's not like I've lost part of the ownership of the book or royalties or anything like that. It was a wonderful arrangement that really helped me a lot and-

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. No. Yeah, that's a big money tip is, if you do hire someone, make a proactive decision, are you going to pay them a flat fee? And then you retain ownership. And I'm sure some people, if they believe in a project, might be willing to work for free, but take a percentage. So that's a decision that someone would make if they have a project like this. Tell me, I want to hear what went right, but first we're going to go through some missteps. Because I know it wasn't all smooth sailing.

Rob Phelan:
No, definitely not. So I'm not a marketing major by any stretch. I help kids learn to start their businesses. I'm not someone who's going to help you become a multi-million dollar business. That's the next step up for me. So I'm your first entry into entrepreneurship. And that's what I like to talk to my students about in schools. Like here's how you get started. And then there are multiple courses, degrees, things you can do for marketing. So marketing was something that I had to learn a lot about as I went. Did some good things, did some not great things. Overall, we got the Kickstarter going, it got over the line, which was the big thing. The hardest one for me was after I had finished the Kickstarter I put in the order for the books, they had arrived. I had packaged them up nicely. I sent them to everyone.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you wait, wait, let me just stop. You handled the actual shipping and delivery to each of your Kickstarter contributors.

Rob Phelan:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Like I received a book. You packed my book.

Rob Phelan:
Me or my mother-in-law. My mother-in-law has been my like fulfillment center.

Bobbi Rebell:
Family. Okay. So getting family to work for free. There's another money tip. Okay. So you did the physical labor of actually taking the time. You didn't outsource that at all. That's a lot. A lot of people don't realize like entrepreneurship, when you're starting out, you're doing everything.

Rob Phelan:
Yeah. And there was the option of having a fulfillment center do it. So Kickstarter, as soon as you run one, you'll start getting plagued by emails of people being like, Hey, I want to run your campaign for you. I want to do your fulfillment for you. And you'll lose about another 10 to 15% of the money you make just doing fulfillment if you hire somebody to do it, because they're going to take quite a significant cut to do that. And I figured for the, I ended up doing 739 books. So 340 were donated and then the rest were going to backers. So I was like, okay, it's a lot, but I can handle this. I can do it. My mother-in-law was very willing to be like a home base for it. So she's letting me take an entire room in her house at the moment where there's just boxes of books sitting and envelopes and bookmarks and stickers and all this other stuff that was going in there.

Rob Phelan:
But yeah, using your family, super good idea if they're willing to help out and she did not want any payment for it. I offered, she said, no. She just wanted to help. So that was a great thing to have. And I know not all of us have that network to fall back on, but if you do, don't be afraid to use it. But the mistake, the mistake we have to talk about. So no sooner had I sent all of these books out like 300 plus books had gone their Merry way. I dropped one off to my local library and I was like, Hey, I would love to use some of my allocation of donated books to give some to my local library. She emailed me back. She's like, oh, I love the book. Everything looks great. You can see how it's to be a wonderful resource for kids.

Rob Phelan:
But I can't put a book on the shelf that has a spelling error in it. And my heart stopped. I was like, what? No, there's no way. How does a children's book author have a spelling error? There's only like 300 words in the whole book. But yeah, sure enough I found the page and the word P-A-Y, so pay had an X instead of the Y. So the letters kind of look similar. I'm going with this, that everyone's brain was simply just reading over it the way the word was supposed to be understood in our heads. And all of us missed this. I read this book cover to cover 20, 30 times to spell check it. My wife did, a couple of other people were in focus groups for me and they did it too. None of us saw this spelling error until the librarian was like, Nope, can't put this on the shelf.

Rob Phelan:
So I had to email all of my Kickstarter backers and be like, I am so sorry. I sent you a book with a spelling error. If you would like a replacement copy, please let me know. I'll send you one for free. So that was a big, expensive learning lesson, but I think it was very important to acknowledge it and address it upfront and offered at least to fix the problem for people. And a lot of people are like, Nope, I want the collector edition of the book. So I've got something now that's a very limited edition. Then there were plenty who were like, yeah, I want to give this book away as a gift or I want to donate it. So I would like a corrected copy. So it's been a mixed result, but everyone has been very nice about it, which been the great part.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I think that's a good lesson for all the focus groups and everything you did. We're all human and things do happen and you have to just acknowledge it and figure out the best solution that you can and move on. Let's talk about what went right. When you look back now, what are you like yeah, that was genius.

Rob Phelan:
I'm going to do a little pat on the back for the secret reward tier. So like reaching out to you and a couple of other personal finance influencers. I handpicked the people I wanted to work with because I liked their brands. I liked who they were as a person, the message they were putting out there. And I wanted to be associated with them basically for all time, because your names were all printed in the back of the book, as well as having your stuff in the book somewhere as well. And that was a huge needle mover for getting initial backers in. So yours was in exchange for backing at least five books donated. So anyone who did the secret reward tier donated at least five books towards my 300. And then they also usually went on and shared it with their audiences.

Rob Phelan:
So like, Hey, I'm appearing in this book or my brand's appearing in this book. So you guys should go check out this book. I thought that was a great way to get some ownership from other people who are much bigger, wiser, more experienced than I was in terms of the personal finance world. It caused the Kickstarter to have a huge kickstart on day one. So like a lot of pledges came in day one, because I had lined up all of you secret reward tier backers to be like, please go in on day one, get your pledge in so I can add the illustrations in and keep this moving forward. But it caused the Kickstarter to like be 50%, 60% funded on the first day. All people need to see sometimes is that somebody else is doing it before they'll jump in and do it themselves. We love to do what other people are doing.

Rob Phelan:
The hardest part for a Kickstarter sometimes if you don't have a strong start, people kind of sit on the sidelines and they wait to see, is this going to get funded? Is it not? Should I jump in this? Should I not? Because if a Kickstarter does not reach its funding goal, nobody gets charged. So everyone has their credit card kind of like sitting on the side, they've pledged the money, but you don't get charged for it until the Kickstarter ends and the goal has been achieved.

Rob Phelan:
So I think a lot of people, they'll look at these projects and like, oh, it's got like 5,000 to go. It seems to be moving really slowly. I don't know if I'm even going to bother with this one because it doesn't look like it's going to meet its goal. And I could see a lot of great ideas don't make it over line because of that. They just don't have a strong start. And I think the secret reward tier was something that really allowed me to have that strong start and give people kind of that feeling of everybody else is doing it. I better do it too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I am honored to have been selected to participate in the secret tier. How can people learn more about you? I know the book is now available or will be soon on Amazon, M is for Money. Where else can people be in touch with you?

Rob Phelan:
Yeah. So I am on Instagram @misformoneybook, Facebook @misformoneybook, Twitter it's @fieducator, F-I-educator. If you're on LinkedIn, you're more than welcome to reach out to me, Rob Phelan. You'll find me there. And you can check out the website, misformoneybook.com. As you said, M is for Money is available for pre-order at the moment up until November 13th, 2021. So if you're hearing this after November 13th, you can just go buy the book right now. If it's before November 13th, you can pre-order your book at Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble, or bookshop.org. And I do encourage you to pre-order or order as soon as you can, if you are thinking about trying to get the book for the holidays, just because what we're hearing from the printers is that books are going to have a lot of supply chain problems and logistics problems over the winter holidays. And I know last year, even we had some where like I was ordering books and they were taking a month to get to where they were supposed to be. So highly encourage you if you are ordering books, whether it's my book or any other book, order them soon.

Bobbi Rebell:
So great. Thank you so much.

Rob Phelan:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. My friends that was a lot, but a lot of great stuff, right? What stood out to me was that Rob really needed to figure out ahead of time, how much the whole shebang would cost to make sure he didn't dig himself into a hole. So we need to research our costs including things like who is packing the boxes. I love the idea of having your family pitch in, but we don't always all have that available. So if they can't and you need to hire someone, just knowing what it would cost to outsource things like fulfillment is good business. You have options and you can make informed choices. Also, there is no such thing as proofreading too much. When Rob told me there was a typo, I tried to find it myself and I couldn't. Things do slip through the cracks. Really take those details seriously. We all need to be as detail oriented as possible.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also don't apologize for getting help if it gets you to your goal. Rob did hire a consultant, but even if the project didn't work out, it would have saved him so many wasted hours of research. In his case, he felt he had the green light after he had the information from the consultant. But you know what, if you bring in a consultant for a potential project and that helps you see that the numbers won't work on the project, that has a lot of value too.

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you got a lot of value from this podcast. I say this all the time but you know what, it's really true. You guys get used to it, but please do take a screenshot and do share it on social media. And please tag me so I can share it from there and bring in more grownups to this community. On Instagram, I'm @bobbirebell1, the number one and on Twitter, it's just Bobbi Rebell. M is for Money makes a great holiday gift. Order it now so it gets there when you need it on time. Lots of shipping delays these days. So don't hesitate. Big thanks to Rob Phelan for helping us all be financial grownups

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Don’t wait until January!! Friend of the podcast Allison Task is back with her latest project: A Year of Self Care Journal. Find out how you can create a healthy financial ecosystem, get tips for active listening and the difference between responding and reacting and so much more.  

Money Tips

• Create a healthy financial ecosystem

• Get tips for active listening

• Learn the difference between responding and reacting

• How to make the most of the Self Care Journal
  

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Follow Allison!

• Instagram - @allisontaskcoach

• Facebook - @allison-task

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• Website - allisontask.com

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Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates, if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Allison Task:
Dirty little secret, I had the conversation with my husband this summer. I'm like, "Can we just do it? Can we just do our budget?" And I kind of rely on him because he's a financial professional. And I said, "It's time." I opened up my spreadsheet. In about 20 minutes, I had where our money's coming, where are money's going. And it's going out a lot more than coming in. So we had a real conversation with real numbers. That's important. I didn't do it myself and I did it this summer.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends, welcome to an all new episode of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast. You guys are in for a treat today because it is all about you putting yourself first as you should and not waiting until the new year. I'm really excited to bring back career coach, mentor, life coach, all around wise person. An author, Allison Task, she's a guest so many of you wrote me about that you loved, as did I. Because Allison just gets it. And she isn't afraid to dish out some tough love to get all of us to a better place.

Bobbi Rebell:
I get a lot of books sent to me asking if the author could be featured on the show and I really try to limit the number of sort of journals as we head into the new year. Some of them are really good, but a lot of them are kind same old, same old. This is very different. It is, I don't know what to say, just substantial. There's a lot more to it and a lot of thought that went into it. And most of all, it's definitely not something you want to wait on. You want to get this now and not just wait to the new year. So in this case, I actually reached out to Allison Task and I bought myself this journal because I wanted it now, I didn't want to wait. And it really is a next level version of something that so many other people are doing, but just not as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
As you listen to the interview with Allison, you're going to start to understand why it is simply called a year of self-care journal. So in our interview, Allison and I talk about some very real world situations, including ... and this gets really personal, I was kind of a little surprised she went there. But Allison talks about how she talks about money with her husband and even revealed some of the conversations that they had when things got really dicey during the pandemic. She gets really candid about how her life changed, some big decisions that had to be made. And how this project, the journal, came to be. We talk about active listening, communicating boundaries, and the difference between reacting and responding. Get ready, guys, this is good. Here is Alison Task.

Bobbi Rebell:
Alison Task, you're a Financial Grownup. Welcome back to the podcast.

Allison Task:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so glad to have you back. You were here a little while ago to talk about personal revolution. It's like our important to sort of like evolution, everyone should check out that book and that at episode. Which of course, we have to be like so podcast cliche and be like, "Go to our show notes for the link to that." But I have you back because you have a new book. It is called A Year of Self-care, it's a journal. Allison, first of all, welcome, welcome, welcome. And tell us about the new book.

Allison Task:
So, the new book is something that I created so that people could have really tangible exercises. You know me, right? I'm a coach, I'm a life coach, career coach. And what happens out of my room is more important than what happens in the room. While in conversation with people, we have work to do. And I wanted to create something so that people could go home at night and do the work. That's where the rubber hits the road, you be with your coach, but it's in your weekly runs that you really get stuff done. That was the idea for this book. And it's a journal. So every week has either a quote or some sort of topic to keep you thinking and then an action. And it's designed to happen anytime over the course of a week.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly. And the other thing that I really like about it is they're really substantial, and they're thoughtful, and there's themes that come back throughout the book, which I like. Because you want reinforcement, you don't want just one time to be told, "Oh, think about your sleep and how that impacts the rest of your life." They're recurring themes and I really like that positive reinforcement. Especially when we are home more than we used to be, even as the world opens up. And this is a time when people really want to be thinking about how they're living their life.

Allison Task:
Right. So it's very intentional. And when you talk about the themes, there are five specific areas that I focus on. I focus on self care in terms of the physical, the mental, the spiritual, and the emotional. Like those three always get put together. So physical, mental, spiritual, emotional, and social.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I cheated a little and looked ahead and went through the book to pull out some of my favorite week challenges, prompts, whatever you want to call it. So I want to ask you to elaborate on a few of them, just to give people a little bit of a teaser of the book, sneak, peek, whatever you want to call it.

Bobbi Rebell:
So one of my favorites is week seven, which is about making an honest assessment of your financial situation including creating a healthy financial ecosystem. And that's something, by the way, sneak peek, also, Allison you're featured in my upcoming book that's coming out in March, Launching Financial Grownups. You had amazing advice for parents. We talked about the financial ecosystem a bit there, too.

Allison Task:
Absolutely. I can't tell you how many clients I meet at all levels of economics who I'll say, "What is your budget? Do you know what you're spending a month or a year?" They'll say, "No." And dirty little secret, I had the conversation with my husband this summer. I'm like, "Can we just do it? Can we just do our budget?" And I kind of rely on him because he's a financial professional. And I said, "It's time." I opened up my spreadsheet. In about 20 minutes, I had where our money's coming, where our money's going. And it's going out a lot more than coming in. So we had a real conversation with real numbers, that's important. I didn't do it myself and I did it this summer.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's hard to make time to do that even when we have a lot of time. So that's one of the reasons it's nice to have a physical book with actual prompts because you can go to the other financial stakeholders in your family, which may be a husband, a wife, whomever it is. But the people that your finances overlap with and say, "Look, I'm working on this. I need your help. Can you participate in this exercise this week?" So I think that's a great thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also talk about practicing active listening. It's so important in life, but also it's important for career and business success. We've learned that a little bit with Zoom because we can't talk over each other as much as we might in person. But tell us more about that.

Allison Task:
Well, active listening, to me, it's a gift you're giving to the person you're speaking with. I'm speaking right now, you're giving me the space, you're not stepping on me. And now the next part is ... and we don't have to do this in the interview. But it's, "Here's what I heard you say, Allison." It's actively giving space, then even a little extra space when the person finishes. And then letting you know they were heard.

Allison Task:
If there's community, the level of connectivity that happens when a person feels heard is very powerful. It's relief, you can feel it in your body and you feel it because there's me and you and the space between us. And the space between us grows wider and more powerful, we connect more.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another one of my favorites here was communicating boundaries. This is really important as we start going back into the world. You mentioned your PTA president, I'm actually the class mom, whatever you want to call it, for my son's grade. And we get pulled into ... you're silently applauding me, but I'm sort of mixed feelings about it. Because we sometimes say yes, and when you say yes to something, you are kind of saying no to something else. So it's really important to be selective and to create those boundaries. Tell us more about that.

Allison Task:
Well, yes. Congratulations and thank you for stepping up in this leadership role. Yeah, fuzzy boundaries like this, emotional boundaries with your kids, showing up, volunteering is some of the fuzziest of boundaries. And so where do we want to go? Checking in with ourself. When you feel you're getting pulled, I sense resistance. And it's very much okay. And trust me as a PTA president, I'm always having people tell me, no. But when people tell me, yes, I go, "Great. How do you want to build this? How will this work for you?" I do not want a single volunteer that isn't thrilled to be there because then the work doesn't get done in a passive aggressive way and I'm not interested in wasting time with that. So if you want to stand up, how do you want to stand up? So maybe defining for yourself how you want to be a class parent. I will spend no more than two hours a week on this. Some weeks I'll go to 10 for big weeks, but that's it. And you can say no and say yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
I like that a lot. The other thing I really like is further on ... actually this is the final one, so I'm giving everyone ... it's not a spoiler, but anyway. It's consider the range of responses, the difference between responding and reacting. And I was like, "Hmm." I read that, I'm like, "I really have to process that because they are very different." And very often we're reactive when really we should be a little bit more thoughtful and think about our response.

Allison Task:
Right. And active listening helps you with that. Responding is taking a beat, thinking, giving space. And reacting is quicker. I was visiting relatives in Rochester the summer and she said, "The difference between the downstate city folk and us is, we just take that space." And you gave that some space, which I appreciate. Because you were considering it. Respond. React is, "No, no, no, that's not what I said. No, no, I meant something totally different." It's high pitched, it's frenetic, it's pitchy, it's up here. It's not deeper, stronger.

Bobbi Rebell:
The final thing that I want to ask you to tell us more about of these 52 amazing prompts. You talk about ... this is really towards the beginning, if your ship doesn't come in ... this is a quote because you have the quotes and then you have the actions. If your ship doesn't come in, swim out to meet it. I want to hear more about that. Because many of us are still home, we're starting to go back to offices, back to socializing, back to in-person activities and networking. And this is a time when we have to remember that if we just sit back, sometimes the ship doesn't come into us. Sometimes we do have to force ourselves and I find myself sometimes really not wanting to go to things. Even though I do miss friends, I do miss going out. We kind of got used to just not.

Allison Task:
Well dirty little secret, boy was I happy to have all those obligations off of my docket. And I sense you're feeling that way, too. And so ... ah, you're giving me the side eye. So that's a boundary thing. Here's what I learned about myself during the pandemic, I tend to overbook and I really value my downtime and I don't have that much of it. You're a person who puts yourself out there in public for a career, maybe you really treasure that reconnection, rejuvenation, repair time. You're out so much, you got to go in, too. I think that's important. I'm not sure that I answered your exact question because I flipped it [crosstalk 00:11:55]-

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I guess the question is, though, at a certain point, you also have to say, "Okay, but I do have a business, I do have to earn income." And it's not going to happen. If I just wait for the ship to come to me, maybe I have to go out and meet the ship. I mean, that really hit home with me that we do have to motivate. Yes, we've learned how much we need that rejuvenation, how much we do need that downtime. But we also have to remember, there's a reason why people go to in person business trips, for example. There's a reason why we would meet somebody in person to have coffee or lunch or whatever it may be. Because you do connect with of people sometimes on a very different level when you do have those in-person experiences. And that's something that we're all figuring out right now, what is the balance? Because of what you just said.

Allison Task:
That's a really powerful part of self-care. Self-care isn't just the repair and the snuggling in the cashmere. Self-care is also taking action, growing. I like the concept that you're either comfortable or you're growing. And if you're waiting on the couch or by the edge of the sea, maybe you're comfortable and maybe you need a little goose. Maybe you need to goose your system. Maybe your business is running perfectly fine, but then have that moment with yourself where you sit down and have a little offsite with you. Maybe it's down insight in your home. And you're like, "Is this where I want my business to go? Where do I want my business in ten years, five years? Then what are my goals for this year?" So that's assert yourself. One of the WHO things, The World Health Organization, I believe was agency. It's empowerment, autonomy, self efficacy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Allison Task:
Self efficacy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Allison Task:
There you go.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, so you gave me the perfect lead in and because you also have a whole business. Books are just a tiny part of all that you do. So tell us about that and how people can be in touch with you and learn more about everything besides your books. We know your books are everywhere.

Allison Task:
Yeah, they are live and large. So I have a personal coaching business, I work privately with individuals to coach them. I have been hired by organizations, but I prefer to keep my work really intimate, working directly with the person who hires me. My name is Alison Task. My website is AllisonTask. And currently available working with private clients.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wonderful. And it's great that you can be available for people, but also if that's not an option for somebody, they can definitely get your books and other resources. So thank you so much.

Allison Task:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Allison was so great, as always, so perceptive. Just really nails it and calls us out for the things that we know we should be doing, but we don't always actively pay attention to. I particularly loved what she had to say about volunteering, which is something I have mixed feelings about. Also how to say no, but also say yes. And I was struck by what she had to say about the fact that we tend to just react to things when we really should take a beat and think about our response. Take some space, give other people a little space.

Bobbi Rebell:
I would love to hear from all of you about what resonated with you. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. And please take a moment to share this episode on social media or just directly share with your friends that might enjoy it. I really need your help to grow this podcast, it is truly a labor of love. And for that reason, each and every one of you matters to me. So I am sincere when I ask you to be in touch. I want to hear from you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Don't wait until the new year to pick up Allison's book, A Year of Self-care Journal. Allison Task always brings it and we are so thankful for her coming back to the podcast to help us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a Production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, Guest Coordination, Content Creation, Social Media Support and Show Notes By Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts reading. Each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself, as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Woman’s Day Editor-in-Chief Meaghan Murphy shares how her enthusiasm for things she loves turns into sales.  Plus tips for dealing with toxic bosses at work, why she loves coupons even more than ever, and a preview of her awesome new book "Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay."

Meaghan’s Money Tips

Bobbi Rebell:
For any doubters who don't see the connection between happiness, and a positive attitude, and success like, being really good at selling. There it is. There is a connection. Even though it comes so naturally to you Meaghan, that you don't see it. There is a huge connection. Let's get into some of the tips. So the first one that I want to talk about is how to deal with toxic bosses or colleagues?

Meaghan Murphy:
Avoid them as much as possible. Give and requests only much information as needed as to do your job. Keep things professional. Don't get sucked into that. I also say, ignore the bait and bite your tongue instead. I love Terri Cole. She has a new book coming out too called Boundary Boss, but she calls it being unprovokable. And I find being unprovokable and using that word as sort of a mantra, I'm unprovokable, I find it very empowering. So no matter what somebody spews at me, how somebody is trying to drag me down, I just don't fall for the bait. I bite my tongue and I smile and I don't fall for it. And I find it's very gratifying, right, to be unprovokable. I highly recommend that. I also say, always kill them with kindness. I'm always going to be kind. I'm always going to be generous.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm always going to be helpful. And even if there's a little piece of me that dies in the process, I am absolutely going to kill them with kindness. And I find that the haters often come around. And one of my favorite, like sort of Instagram bumper stickers is hustle until the haters ask, if you're hiring. This has happened to me quite often, where I've stayed above the fray. I haven't given them a lot of my brain space, or my energy, or my focus. I've sort of created this force field of positivity against that toxic energy. And eventually they soften up and they suddenly want to be my friend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And the next one actually ties into this very well. It's something you learned from Shonda Rhimes when you edited one of her interviews.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm obsessed with Shonda. I was the executive editor at Good Housekeeping at the time. And she was like, always have hard conversations ASAP. Don't wait for a good time. Right? We angst about when we're going to have this conversation, because we got to wait for the right time. We've got wait for that right moment. Well, guess what? That right moment never actually happens. And you've wasted energy and bandwidth angsting about when it's going to happen. Do it ASAP. Just have the hard conversation. And I've done that where like, I can feel my palms sweating. I can feel my voice shaking. I'm getting the sweats, but I am absolutely going to pick up the phone or walk into the office and have that really, really difficult conversation without hesitation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So easy to say, so hard to do. But I'm going to work on that. I know I've had a really hard time with that myself. You also say something that a lot of people have said the opposite. So I think our listeners are going to really benefit from hearing about this. You say respond to every email.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's super counterintuitive, right? Because doesn't that seem like a time suck? And I guess I should make the caveat, every email that the person... Like so if it's spam, they've spelled your name wrong, gotten the name of your publication wrong, that can be a delete. But if someone has taken the time to engage with you. If a publicist reaches out to me and say, oh, Meaghan, looks like you had a great time in St. Thomas from your Instagram. I've got this great pitch. I think it could be a fit for this section. They deserve a response. That's a kindness, that's a professional courtesy. And in so many instances where I've responded and said, you know what? This is not a fit for me. I'm going to keep it top of mind. Or I've exchanged some kind of a kindness of like that was a great pitch.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's not right for me. Maybe it's right for so-and-so over here. Did you think about that? I have benefited from those interactions in so many crazy ways where they're like, oh, you know what? You should know this person, or what about this or... Good things come to you when you're a good human being. It's this kindness networking boomerang. And I can't tell you how good it feels to walk through a trade show and be like, oh, that's Meaghan Murphy. She's the best. She always responds to email. She's so courteous and polite. It's a kindness that I will extend to anyone who makes a concerted effort to contact me.

Bobbi Rebell:
And these are people that you're basically saying no to, which is amazing.

Meaghan Murphy:
I kind of think of the world as like a Lite Brite board. Do you remember Lite Brite boards when you were a kid?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Meaghan Murphy:
And the more of those colorful pegs you put into the board, the clearer the picture gets, and eventually you have this bright, vibrant, interesting picture. To me I sort of look like people and connections and ideas as those pegs, those little lights. And the more I put in the board, the clearer the picture becomes, the more it lights up. And so I am never worried that if I introduce you to so-and-so, then somehow there's less work for me. Or if I connect to these two people, I'm going to be boxed out. Absolutely not. I assume that we all have our own secret sauce. We all shine in our own way. And my shine doesn't diminish yours and your shine doesn't diminish mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important. Because that's something that I have been so relieved about as I've embarked on my own journey, independent from corporate life. I was afraid that people wouldn't want to help me, but it's been just the opposite. I feel like so many people have been so kind and opened up doors. And hopefully I do just as much for other people. Because if you are secure in what you're doing and what you bring to the table, no one else is you. So there's nothing to fear.

Meaghan Murphy:
And here's the deal though. That's hard earned. I'm a 45 year old mother of three. Who's been at this for 25 years. Did I feel that way in my 20s? Probably not so much. Right. I was probably more protective of my ideas, and my successes, and my connections back in the day. I've learned my lesson. Right? I understand that we lift each other up and all the cliches, real queens fix each other's crowns. I do better when I'm lifting others up. And I find it always pays me back in unexpected ways. And so yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. Absolutely. Okay. I want to whip through a few quick hit, simple things that people can do. And these are examples. There are tons of these in your book. Number one, make your bed.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah. I wrote two pages about it in the book because 82% of people who make their bed feel more productive during the day. And it's a very simple task. That's the whole point of the book. It's a toolkit. And some of the tools are going to work for you and they're going to make you happier, and they're going to make you more productive, and they're going to make you more successful. And you can roll your eyes and not make your bed, but try it. Because 82% of people who do, feel more productive.

Bobbi Rebell:
The second one I want to point out, these are like the quick hits, dopamine dressing. I mean, I literally am wearing a pink scrunchie in my hair right now because it makes me happy.

Meaghan Murphy:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Even though no one else can see it. Dopamine dressing, talk about it.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's dressed the way you want to feel. I studied acting and I talk about it like, my clothes as a costume. Right. If I were going on stage playing a doctor, I'm not wearing a Fireman's uniform. So what's the life you want. We always say dress for the job you want. Dress for the life you want. Are you going to a funeral or a party? What does that look like?

Bobbi Rebell:
The pandemic, when so many of us are working from home, actually in a way gives us permission to really dress the way we want. We don't have to dress in the way that other people do because no one else can see you sometimes.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. This one, this is something my mom, who's no longer with us did in the late stages of her life. And so it really hit home for me. And I know it made her happy, is put fresh flowers in your house. I mean, she started doing a flower delivery where every week they would come. She had her fancy vases and she had a rotation going where they would take the old one and bring it back. And then bring another one back each week. So every day she would get them made in her vase. And it was such an important thing in those last years when she was ill.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's major. And that's the thing, it's not like, oh yeah, buying your flowers is nice, or it's frivolous, or... There's so much great research. There's great Harvard research that says, fresh flowers in your house actually have the power to ease anxiety, to boost your mood. So why not do that? And I joke about this. During the pandemic, I took a pair of scissors when you couldn't get flowers anywhere. And it was full lockdown mode. And I walked over the park and I cut some daffodils because I was like, my mood is for (beep). I'm struggling. I'm crying in the shower. You know what's going to make me feel better in this moment? Those daffodils on my kitchen table.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. The last one, this is something my great aunt Mae told me to do, Meaghan. She's no longer with us, but it really helped me. I was going through a divorce and I had to do live updates from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. She would tell me no matter what's going on in your head, physically smile, just force a smile.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yep. It's like when people tell you to stand up straight and then suddenly you roll your shoulders back and down. Like smile right now. Everybody listening, just smile. It changes the way you feel. Facial feedback research suggests that there is absolutely this two-way street between your facial expressions and your emotions. And the second you crack that smile, fake it till you make it. It does send signals to your brain. Like, okay, today's not so bad.

Bobbi Rebell:
The crazy thing is, it works. And I say that to my son all the time when he gets frustrated because he's been doing a ton of remote learning. And I don't know if learning should really be in that phrase actually, having been,

Meaghan Murphy:
I hear you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Doing this for over a year. But it's a little bit frustrating for kids. And I think that can really have a really great effect on them as well. All right. I want to do one last money tip, which is just coming from you as a mom. You are still into the coupons.

Meaghan Murphy:
I really am a coupon queen. I miss actually cutting them out of the Sunday circular and going to the shop, right, with my coupons. Ed, my favorite cashier, he's like, where's all your coupons? I don' have the physical paper coupons anymore. Because now everything is an app. But things like RetailMeNot, my grocery store app where I can just scan it and get that bonus. I love saving money so that I could spend it on things I actually might want. I don't need to spend an extra 59 cents on bananas. I would rather put my phone number or my store code and save 30 cents. Because that 30 cents adds up. Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it really does. And that could get you to the fresh flowers that you want. So absolutely. And the truth is, even though there's probably a satisfaction and I remember my mother sitting at the table cutting her coupons, getting ready to go to the store with her box. She had a box and then she would organize which ones she was then going to use that day. And she was aware of the double coupons and the triple coupon days.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
The truth is that even though that tangible experience is gone for most of us, there is still that thrill of seeing the number go down when things are being rung up.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my God. It's so good. Even when I use my Target card and it's like 5% back, and then I get the bill under 200 bucks, I'm like, yes.

Follow Meaghan!

• Instagram - @meaghanbmurphy

• Facebook - @meaghan.b.murphy

• Twitter - @meaghanbmurphy

• Website - https://meaghanbmurphy.com/

• Book - https://meaghanbmurphy.com/book/

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Meaghan Murphy:
I got excited about this santa cake and was literally like, oh my God, everyone look at this. And so everyone in line bought one.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Time to smile my grownup friends. Money may not buy you happiness, but happiness can get you very far when it comes to making money. This week's guest literally leverages her happiness into success. You can't help but love this woman the minute you meet her, even if it is virtual. Meaghan Murphy is the editor in chief of Women's Day, which is the number one selling magazine on news stands. And one of the hosts of the Off the Gram podcast. She is also the author of the new book, Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
If she sounds familiar that's because you see you're on all the morning shows. Plus all those great shows like Live with Kelly & Ryan. She is a home hack master, a lifestyle and health expert. Oh. And she works out like a pro because yes, one more thing. She is a certified trainer. She also has lots of children and a husband and so much going on. But we got her here on the podcast to talk to us about how to put yay into our life. And of course, some incredible money tips. Here is Meaghan Murphy. Meaghan Murphy, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. I love that you're saying yay. That's like your anthem as the author of Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay. A lot of people will look at this book and they'll say like, oh, that's not me. I'm not wired that way. She's so chipper. She just walks around saying, yay. By the way, people can't see you, but you have lightning bolts on your clothing. But honestly, if somebody met you earlier in life, that's not who you were. Give us some context for this because you weren't always the yay person.

Meaghan Murphy:
After some tragic teen years, I did write a very powerful essay that earned me a scholarship and a national TV spot, which ultimately led to an internship at YM Magazine and ultimately springboarded a magazine career. And so in my 20s, when I was working at Cosmopolitan Magazine, I was assigned by my boss to write a story called the seven secrets of happiness. And I completely rolled my eyes because I'm like, who wants to read this crap? But I was the senior editor at Cosmopolitan and this was my assignment when I started to delve into the research and I started to look at the field of positive psychology. And I looked at the work of Martin Seligman who sort of the godfather of positive psychology. And it was the first time that I sort of had this epiphany that happiness wasn't this like bumper sticker, static (beep) thing that you either were or weren't, but it was actually an active state of being, and there were things you can do.

Meaghan Murphy:
There were choices you could make on a daily basis to move the happiness needle. And maybe it might be better and feel better and to live that way. And so I started to dabble in optimism. I started to dabble in living differently. And that's really when the seeds of a fully charged life were planted. And the beautiful thing about prioritizing positivity and sort of actively choosing happiness is that it really started to build and spiral till it becomes easier to do. And it becomes, comes the default, right? And you don't have to work so hard at it. So today, I mean, my friends joke, I'm like a fricking rainbow unicorn. But that's years and years of practice later and kind of rewiring my brain for optimism and joy.

Bobbi Rebell:
That optimism and joy, even though you're not even conscious about it, does translate into so much success in things that are connected to money. So for example, you talk about in the book that you were online at an ice cream store and you were so enthusiastic about a santa cake that you basically became the de facto salesperson for this little ice cream store that was selling ice cream cakes, and you started selling santa cakes for them.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm an evangelist for things I love. If I get excited about something I want everyone else to get excited about. So I probably should have some type of sales career because I would crush it. I got excited about this santa cake and was literally like, oh my God, everyone look at this. And so everyone in line bought one.

Bobbi Rebell:
For any doubters who don't see the connection between happiness, and a positive attitude, and success like, being really good at selling. There it is. There is a connection. Even though it comes so naturally to you Meaghan, that you don't see it. There is a huge connection. Let's get into some of the tips. So the first one that I want to talk about is how to deal with toxic bosses or colleagues?

Meaghan Murphy:
Avoid them as much as possible. Give and requests only much information as needed as to do your job. Keep things professional. Don't get sucked into that. I also say, ignore the bait and bite your tongue instead. I love Terri Cole. She has a new book coming out too called Boundary Boss, but she calls it being unprovokable. And I find being unprovokable and using that word as sort of a mantra, I'm unprovokable, I find it very empowering. So no matter what somebody spews at me, how somebody is trying to drag me down, I just don't fall for the bait. I bite my tongue and I smile and I don't fall for it. And I find it's very gratifying, right, to be unprovokable. I highly recommend that. I also say, always kill them with kindness. I'm always going to be kind. I'm always going to be generous.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm always going to be helpful. And even if there's a little piece of me that dies in the process, I am absolutely going to kill them with kindness. And I find that the haters often come around. And one of my favorite, like sort of Instagram bumper stickers is hustle until the haters ask, if you're hiring. This has happened to me quite often, where I've stayed above the fray. I haven't given them a lot of my brain space, or my energy, or my focus. I've sort of created this force field of positivity against that toxic energy. And eventually they soften up and they suddenly want to be my friend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And the next one actually ties into this very well. It's something you learned from Shonda Rhimes when you edited one of her interviews.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm obsessed with Shonda. I was the executive editor at Good Housekeeping at the time. And she was like, always have hard conversations ASAP. Don't wait for a good time. Right? We angst about when we're going to have this conversation, because we got to wait for the right time. We've got wait for that right moment. Well, guess what? That right moment never actually happens. And you've wasted energy and bandwidth angsting about when it's going to happen. Do it ASAP. Just have the hard conversation. And I've done that where like, I can feel my palms sweating. I can feel my voice shaking. I'm getting the sweats, but I am absolutely going to pick up the phone or walk into the office and have that really, really difficult conversation without hesitation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So easy to say, so hard to do. But I'm going to work on that. I know I've had a really hard time with that myself. You also say something that a lot of people have said the opposite. So I think our listeners are going to really benefit from hearing about this. You say respond to every email.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's super counterintuitive, right? Because doesn't that seem like a time suck? And I guess I should make the caveat, every email that the person... Like so if it's spam, they've spelled your name wrong, gotten the name of your publication wrong, that can be a delete. But if someone has taken the time to engage with you. If a publicist reaches out to me and say, oh, Meaghan, looks like you had a great time in St. Thomas from your Instagram. I've got this great pitch. I think it could be a fit for this section. They deserve a response. That's a kindness, that's a professional courtesy. And in so many instances where I've responded and said, you know what? This is not a fit for me. I'm going to keep it top of mind. Or I've exchanged some kind of a kindness of like that was a great pitch.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's not right for me. Maybe it's right for so-and-so over here. Did you think about that? I have benefited from those interactions in so many crazy ways where they're like, oh, you know what? You should know this person, or what about this or... Good things come to you when you're a good human being. It's this kindness networking boomerang. And I can't tell you how good it feels to walk through a trade show and be like, oh, that's Meaghan Murphy. She's the best. She always responds to email. She's so courteous and polite. It's a kindness that I will extend to anyone who makes a concerted effort to contact me.

Bobbi Rebell:
And these are people that you're basically saying no to, which is amazing.

Meaghan Murphy:
I kind of think of the world as like a Lite Brite board. Do you remember Lite Brite boards when you were a kid?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Meaghan Murphy:
And the more of those colorful pegs you put into the board, the clearer the picture gets, and eventually you have this bright, vibrant, interesting picture. To me I sort of look like people and connections and ideas as those pegs, those little lights. And the more I put in the board, the clearer the picture becomes, the more it lights up. And so I am never worried that if I introduce you to so-and-so, then somehow there's less work for me. Or if I connect to these two people, I'm going to be boxed out. Absolutely not. I assume that we all have our own secret sauce. We all shine in our own way. And my shine doesn't diminish yours and your shine doesn't diminish mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important. Because that's something that I have been so relieved about as I've embarked on my own journey, independent from corporate life. I was afraid that people wouldn't want to help me, but it's been just the opposite. I feel like so many people have been so kind and opened up doors. And hopefully I do just as much for other people. Because if you are secure in what you're doing and what you bring to the table, no one else is you. So there's nothing to fear.

Meaghan Murphy:
And here's the deal though. That's hard earned. I'm a 45 year old mother of three. Who's been at this for 25 years. Did I feel that way in my 20s? Probably not so much. Right. I was probably more protective of my ideas, and my successes, and my connections back in the day. I've learned my lesson. Right? I understand that we lift each other up and all the cliches, real queens fix each other's crowns. I do better when I'm lifting others up. And I find it always pays me back in unexpected ways. And so yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. Absolutely. Okay. I want to whip through a few quick hit, simple things that people can do. And these are examples. There are tons of these in your book. Number one, make your bed.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah. I wrote two pages about it in the book because 82% of people who make their bed feel more productive during the day. And it's a very simple task. That's the whole point of the book. It's a toolkit. And some of the tools are going to work for you and they're going to make you happier, and they're going to make you more productive, and they're going to make you more successful. And you can roll your eyes and not make your bed, but try it. Because 82% of people who do, feel more productive.

Bobbi Rebell:
The second one I want to point out, these are like the quick hits, dopamine dressing. I mean, I literally am wearing a pink scrunchie in my hair right now because it makes me happy.

Meaghan Murphy:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Even though no one else can see it. Dopamine dressing, talk about it.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's dressed the way you want to feel. I studied acting and I talk about it like, my clothes as a costume. Right. If I were going on stage playing a doctor, I'm not wearing a Fireman's uniform. So what's the life you want. We always say dress for the job you want. Dress for the life you want. Are you going to a funeral or a party? What does that look like?

Bobbi Rebell:
The pandemic, when so many of us are working from home, actually in a way gives us permission to really dress the way we want. We don't have to dress in the way that other people do because no one else can see you sometimes.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. This one, this is something my mom, who's no longer with us did in the late stages of her life. And so it really hit home for me. And I know it made her happy, is put fresh flowers in your house. I mean, she started doing a flower delivery where every week they would come. She had her fancy vases and she had a rotation going where they would take the old one and bring it back. And then bring another one back each week. So every day she would get them made in her vase. And it was such an important thing in those last years when she was ill.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's major. And that's the thing, it's not like, oh yeah, buying your flowers is nice, or it's frivolous, or... There's so much great research. There's great Harvard research that says, fresh flowers in your house actually have the power to ease anxiety, to boost your mood. So why not do that? And I joke about this. During the pandemic, I took a pair of scissors when you couldn't get flowers anywhere. And it was full lockdown mode. And I walked over the park and I cut some daffodils because I was like, my mood is for (beep). I'm struggling. I'm crying in the shower. You know what's going to make me feel better in this moment? Those daffodils on my kitchen table.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. The last one, this is something my great aunt Mae told me to do, Meaghan. She's no longer with us, but it really helped me. I was going through a divorce and I had to do live updates from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. She would tell me no matter what's going on in your head, physically smile, just force a smile.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yep. It's like when people tell you to stand up straight and then suddenly you roll your shoulders back and down. Like smile right now. Everybody listening, just smile. It changes the way you feel. Facial feedback research suggests that there is absolutely this two-way street between your facial expressions and your emotions. And the second you crack that smile, fake it till you make it. It does send signals to your brain. Like, okay, today's not so bad.

Bobbi Rebell:
The crazy thing is, it works. And I say that to my son all the time when he gets frustrated because he's been doing a ton of remote learning. And I don't know if learning should really be in that phrase actually, having been,

Meaghan Murphy:
I hear you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Doing this for over a year. But it's a little bit frustrating for kids. And I think that can really have a really great effect on them as well. All right. I want to do one last money tip, which is just coming from you as a mom. You are still into the coupons.

Meaghan Murphy:
I really am a coupon queen. I miss actually cutting them out of the Sunday circular and going to the shop, right, with my coupons. Ed, my favorite cashier, he's like, where's all your coupons? I don' have the physical paper coupons anymore. Because now everything is an app. But things like RetailMeNot, my grocery store app where I can just scan it and get that bonus. I love saving money so that I could spend it on things I actually might want. I don't need to spend an extra 59 cents on bananas. I would rather put my phone number or my store code and save 30 cents. Because that 30 cents adds up. Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it really does. And that could get you to the fresh flowers that you want. So absolutely. And the truth is, even though there's probably a satisfaction and I remember my mother sitting at the table cutting her coupons, getting ready to go to the store with her box. She had a box and then she would organize which ones she was then going to use that day. And she was aware of the double coupons and the triple coupon days.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
The truth is that even though that tangible experience is gone for most of us, there is still that thrill of seeing the number go down when things are being rung up.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my God. It's so good. Even when I use my Target card and it's like 5% back, and then I get the bill under 200 bucks, I'm like, yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about where people can reach you and your podcast and all your other projects.

Meaghan Murphy:
Sure. So I am on Instagram. I'm pretty busy. Meghan B Murphy, M-E-A-G-H-A-N, B Murphy. I have a podcast called Off the Gram with a bunch of wellness influencers. That's wherever podcasts are not sold, but listened to, I guess. And I'm also the editor in chief of Woman's Day Magazine. So it's a top selling magazine on newsstands. I think we have 18 million readers. So that's a pretty fun thing to pick up too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. That's kind of huge. But yeah, most people would lead with that one, but you have so much going on. I can't thank you enough for stopping by. This is such a gift to our listeners. So thank you so much, Meaghan.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my gosh. I so enjoyed you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm grateful.

Bobbi Rebell:
Good stuff, right? She was great. Let's go over some of the tips that we learned from Meaghan. First, be an evangelist for things you love. They will literally sell themselves. If you have a toxic boss at work, do not fall for the bait. Be generous with introductions. Don't worry that there will be less for you. Things work out for those who give proactively and generously. And of course, yay for coupons.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So now I have a question for all of you. What are you happy about these days? What are you celebrating? I am looking forward to a lot of in-person get togethers as things open up. And I'm always looking for the perfect gift, which is one reason I created grownupgear.com. So if you haven't checked it out yet, please take a look. We have the perfect gift for all of those adulting moments that we celebrate from graduations to engagements, bridal showers, new homes, birthdays, all the good things.

Bobbi Rebell:
As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to Grownup Gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. Can also think of it as financial independence day if that motivates you. There are two ways to enter, take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media and tag me @bobbirebell1. That's on Instagram, I should say. And then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review on the Money Tips for Financial Grownups Podcast on Apple podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. Grownup Gear is what I like to call a micro business and we really do need and appreciate all of your support. So please check it out and tell your friends. And thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note. I hope you guys smiled a lot listening to this episode. I loved interviewing Meaghan. She's the best. So big thanks to Meaghan Murphy. Don't forget to check out her book for cheering us all on and yay for all of you financial grownups. Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram. And Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

The winners are in! Fall is a great time to sink into a good book and we have the ultimate list including Machiavelli for Women by Stacey Vanek Smith,The Long Game by Dorie Clark, A Year of Self Care Journal by Allison Task, Wallet Activism by Tanya Hester and Estate Planning 101 by Amy Blacklock and Vicki Cook. 

Grownup Reading List Winners for Fall 2021

Book #1

Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition and Win the Worldplace by Stacey Vanek Smith

- Listen to Stacey Vanek Smith’s Money Tips for Financial Grownups episode -

Book #2

The Long Game: How to Be a Long-Term Thinker in a Short-Term World by Dorie Clark

- Listen to Dorie Clark’s Money Tips for Financial Grownups episode -

Book #3

A Year of Self Care Journal: 52 Weeks to Cultivate Positivity and Joy by Allison Task

- Listen to Allison Task’s Money Tips for Financial Grownups episode -

Book #4

Estate Planning 101: A Crash Course for Planning for the Unexpected by Vicki Cook and Amy Blacklock

- Listen to Vicki Cook and Amy Blacklock’s Money Tips for Financial Grownups episode -

Book #5

Wallet Activism: How to Use Every Dollar You Spend, Earn and Save As a Force for Change by Tanja Hester

- Listen to Tanja Hester’s Money Tips for Financial Grownups episode -

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Follow The Authors!

• Stacey Vanek Smith

• Dorie Clark

• Allison Task

• Vicki Cook and Amy Blacklock

• Tanja Hester

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard. But together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. I hope everyone is enjoying the start to fall, hopefully, getting out there a little bit, seeing friends and family in person. Maybe you're going back to the office, maybe, if you're a parent, just maybe your kids are back to school in person. And most importantly, I hope everyone out there is healthy. So important. And we have such an appreciation for that these days, of course. There's a lot going on, and that makes it even more important to take a break and maybe take the time to read a book. I always love fall for reading because it's such a cozy season. And I hope there's always a little bit of us that wants to just take a break, and hit pause, and sink into a really good book.

Bobbi Rebell:
I have selected five that I think are well worth investing your time. So let's get right into it. The first two books I was really drawn to kind of for similar reasons, even though they're very different books, they both offer advice that goes against what we usually hear. And it may take some time to process the advice and the strategies that you will read in these books because they're really counterintuitive, but that's what makes them so compelling. And here's the thing, they work.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. So let me reveal the first pick. The first pick is Machiavelli for Women. Now, this is sort of the biggest, most ambitious book on the list in terms of reading it. They're all ambitious books, of course. So I recommend starting with it first, and really settling into it for a couple of weeks, and reading it in a place that you can really focus because it deserves your focus, for lack of a better expression for that.

Bobbi Rebell:
So the full title of the book is Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win the Workplace. And I do want to stress that even though clearly by the title, it is aimed at women, everyone who reads this, whatever your gender, will get a lot out of this book. The author, you've probably heard of the author, her name is Stacey Vanek Smith. You've heard of her because she's an incredible journalist and host of The indicator by Planet Money. The book, very high concept. So what Stacey Vanek Smith does is she applies the concepts from Machiavelli's, The Prince, to women and the workplace. The book is incredibly well-researched. You know you can just really tell when the author went the extra mile. Trust me, she went the extra mile.

Bobbi Rebell:
Vanek Smith also took a lot of risks by saying, "Okay, here's the advice you have been given that sounds like the right thing to say, it's the PC thing to do, right? It's the kind of things we all hear like, 'Go, you can be a girl boss. You can hustle your way to success, and it's all going to work. Just go, go, go, go, go girl.'" The thing is, she did the research and there's a lot of documented evidence that a lot of that classic go-girl advice, girl-boss advice, whatever you want to call it, is not working, at least for most people. It's the thing that no one wants to tell you. She will tell you the truth, which is as much as we don't want to admit it, we have a better shot to get what we want if we do certain things that she outlines in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
And in case you're thinking, "Well, things always work for her," Stacey Vanek Smith, I should say, "but not for me," Stacey gets very specific about the things that did not work out for her. And as a fellow journalist, I was in shock, blown away, not only by her honesty, but by the experiences that she had. Because it's one of those, "Oh, I thought it was just me," and, "She's so successful. It must have always been smooth sailing." Well, she totally smashes that myth and she's really vulnerable. I really encourage everyone to read Machiavelli for Women by Stacey Vanek Smith. And by the way, if you read it, and with all of these books, if you enjoy it, go and write a review as well. Amazon is a great place to write a review. You can also go to Goodreads and probably lots of other sites as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
The second book, also a lot of counterintuitive advice that really works, even though it's kind of not supposed to, it's not what people think you should do, but it is what it is. Book number two is The Long Game: How to Be a Long-Term Thinker in a Short-Term World. It is by Dorie Clark. She's a professor at Duke and Columbia. She's also written a number of other books. She's a very popular speaker. She's got a lot going on at LinkedIn with a big series there. So this one, I read it by the pool in August. And I tell you that because this is a book that is a real stress reliever. It takes the pressure off that hustle mentality. So it is the closest to a beach read you can get in that sense from a career book, but it's definitely, obviously not a beach read and I highly recommend it for fall. In fact, it just came out in the fall a couple of weeks ago.

Bobbi Rebell:
Author Dorie Clark, just like Stacey Vanek Smith, gets very candid about her own failures. I mean, they're just flat-out failures. Sometimes there's no like, "Oh, but then the next year, they hired her and she made bazillions of dollars." No. Some of the failures that she talks about are just that. It shows us that even people that we perceive as being at the top of their field, and they are at the top of their field, I should say, they have their setbacks, even when they are at the top of their fields, as we see it. They may not always see it that way. And also like Smith, Clark offers advice that people just don't like to say out loud. Dorie Clark also has some super easy productivity tips that I've already put to work. They're so easy, makes so much sense. So if you're feeling like there's just too much on your plate, take a moment, hit pause, pick up this book, and just read a chapter at a time. You can definitely take your time and go back and dip into this book back and forth throughout the fall.

Bobbi Rebell:
On the theme of The Long Game, I have tried to do the journaling thing so many times. Every January, I am sent wonderful and beautiful journals by people that write these and maybe want to come on the show, some I've had on the show, and they're awesome. And I love it that it works for so many people. But here's the thing, those blank pages just kill me. The wonderful Allison Task has solved the problem with her book A Year of Self-Care Journal: 52 Weeks to Cultivate Positivity & Joy. So consider this an early holiday present for you, maybe for your friends who need some structure and routine. There are quotes to inspire us and they're not the same old, same old ones. And for someone like me, I just got started and the first week is about laughter. And that sounds like, "Oh yeah, the book's just going to make me laugh." No. It had really good things that we could do to laugh and also just to appreciate how ridiculous things are. So it's kind of weird. It actually works even for skeptics like me.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also as a parent, although frankly, everyone is busy, so let's just say as someone with a lot of stuff to do, it has specific tasks throughout the year. So for example, at one point, Allison tells us like, "This week, this week, for sure, check it off your list, that you're going to make appointments with these three crucial doctors that you have to do yearly check-ins with." So it's really important because we're sometimes so busy caring for other people that we forget to do those kinds of things for ourselves. So don't wait until January 1st to get on track. It's 52 weeks. So the week one can be any week. It doesn't have to be the first week of the year.

Bobbi Rebell:
And yes, I have roped Allison Task into coming back on the podcast soon to talk about A Year of Self-Care Journal. So you can hear more from her as well. It'll be coming up probably in a couple of weeks. She, by the way, Allison, has had quite the journey over COVID, a lot of personal drama that I am going to ask her about because I know she is so good at sharing the experiences that she and her family have so that we can also learn from those real-life examples. And she's just a great role model. So make sure you are subscribed so you can get that episode when it comes out.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We are moving up to book number four. Fall is back to school. So even if you're not officially in school, I do have an assignment for you, my Grownup friends. I want you to get your important paperwork in order. No eye-rolling here. I want everyone, no matter how young, no matter how poor you think you are or how early you think you are on your financial journey, I want you to get your estate planning in order. And estate planning is a really unfortunate phrase because the truth is, it's just having your financial act together, and also in this case, kind of your health act together.

Bobbi Rebell:
Because even though we think that estate planning is for really rich people or really old people, the truth is that if you don't have things like advanced care directives in place, which basically means who's in charge of making decisions about your health if you're not able to do it? And who's in charge of your money? Even something as simple as making sure your bills get paid so that all of your financial stuff doesn't come crashing down when you do get better. Someone has to be designated to do that stuff. And so if you don't do that, it's going to be really, really bad. Total chaos. Okay. So the book, the book you guys need to get for this is called Estate Planning 101, a crash course for planning for the unexpected. Estate Planning 101, can't get any easier. The authors are Vicki Cook and Amy Blacklock. Get it stat. Do the things. This lecture is over.

Bobbi Rebell:
Rounding out our list of Grownup books for fall is a book that I have been looking forward to and was able to get an early copy of. It's not actually out yet, but it will be in a couple of weeks. So you guys can already pre-order it, it is called Wallet Activism: How to Use Every Dollar You Spend, Earn and Save as a Force for Change. It is by Tanja Hester. She's been on the podcast before to talk about her previous book about early retirement. That one was called Work Optional.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hester doesn't make us feel bad in this book. If we're being honest, we all probably do things with our money that isn't for social good, not at all. She actually gives us the tools to make changes on our own terms and to really understand the power that we have as consumers. It's called Wallet Activism, and it is really worth reading and supporting, and I hope everyone will get a lot out of it. So pre-order Wallet Activism. And by the time it comes, you'll be done with the other four books and you will be ready to read that book. And also by the way, Tanja will be back on the podcast when the book comes out in early November.

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys check out all of these books the authors either have or soon will be on the podcast. We will link to those episodes in the show notes, and you can get the show notes and full transcripts of all the shows on my website, bobbirebell.com, B-O-B-B-I R-E-B-E-L-L.com. Just go to the podcast tab and you will see it. Super easy. I want to get back to doing more book episodes. So DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 with books that you are reading or books that you're looking forward to reading that you think would be great to share with the Grownup community. And thanks to all of you for your support and for being Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a Financial Grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being Financial Grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Who needs a start-up when you can buy your way into a business? My Fab Finance founder Tonya Rapley shares why and how she decided to buy an online business and her tips on what she would and would not do differently.

Money Tips On Buying An Online Business

• Learn the types of questions you should ask before buying a business.

• Learn how Tonya increased the average order value and how you can do the same.

• Learn what kind of things you can do in the beginning to prepare for the growth that comes later.

• Why it’s so important to have a marketing strategy for your business.

Follow Tonya!

• Instagram - @tonya.rapley

• Facebook - @OfficialTonyaRapley

• Twitter - @tonya.rapley

• Pinterest - @ItsTonyaRapley

• LinkedIn - @tonyarapley

• Website - tonyarapley.com

Follow Club Loofah!

• Instagram - @clubloofah

• Facebook - @clubloofah

• Pinterest- @OfficialClubLoofah

• Website - https://loofah.club

Follow My Fab Finance!

• Instagram - @myfabfinance

• Facebook - @MyFabFinance

• Twitter - @MyFabFinance

• Website - myfabfinance.com

Other Important Links

• My Fab Finance Bootcamp

• The Blue Ribbon Club

• The Fab Fam Community
  
  
  

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Tonya Rapley:
They were taking a significant loss. They were selling these loofahs for 4.99 and doing free shipping. Ridiculous.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hi, friends. Okay, we all know starting a business is not easy, but the truth is you don't have to start a business to be a business owner. There's a whole lot of options out there if you want to buy your way in. But there's a lot you need to know before you get started, and we're going to share some of the secrets that you need to know.

Bobbi Rebell:
My guest today is Tonya Rapley. You may know her as the co-host of one of the shows we featured in our summer watch party, Going From Broke. We were a little obsessed with it. Anyway, it's executive produced by Ashton Kutcher. Check it out on the Crackle channel. Tonya is also the founder of My Fab Finance and the author of The Money Manual. She is a big deal, guys. She's been featured everywhere from Vogue, Good Morning America, and The Today Show. But what you probably don't know is that she's also a holistic wellness business owner. In 2019 Tonya purchased Club Loofah, an inclusive self-care brand focused on inspiring and supporting regenerative practices for all. She mentioned this to me in passing recently, so I roped her into a podcast interview to tell us more about buying a business and basically how it all works. It's really interesting, guys. Here is Tonya Rapley.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tonya Rapley, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you. I'm excited.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so excited to have you. Long time overdue. I loved having you in my book and now here. You are the founder of My Fab Finance, which has an incredible community as well. You're host of Going From Broke, which was one of my favorite shows that I caught up on this summer. We highlighted it in our summer watch series. You have the 30-day shift program. And what we're going to talk about is your new online business, Club Loofah. Welcome, welcome.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you so much. It sounds like I do so many things, and I do.

Bobbi Rebell:
So many things, and wife and mother and all the things. Before we get into your online business, tell us a little bit about My Fab Finance.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, I mean, My Fab Finance, I started in 2013. It was essentially my accountability partner, as I decided that I was tired of being inconvenienced by being financially insecure. My goal at the time was to improve my credit score so that I could get my own apartment in New York City and hopefully get free clothes from Macy's. I just wanted free clothes. I was like, "Maybe they'll see what I'm doing and send me free clothes."

Bobbi Rebell:
Free clothes, always a noble cause.

Tonya Rapley:
You know, you know. And here we are, I guess. Well, I've been a full-time entrepreneur. I was able to transition into doing My Fab Finance full-time in 2015. We've created so many different elements of My Fab Finance and different iterations, but today our goal is to create a safe space for women to talk about money, as well as we have a mission of helping 1000 people achieve at least one financial goal that they're proud of.

Bobbi Rebell:
When we were doing our interview for my book, which is going to come out in the spring, which, guys, I'll talk about another time, you kind of mentioned, "Oh, by the way, yeah, I bought an online business." And so I wanted to bring you on the podcast, because you mentioned this oh so casually, like, "I'm doing 100 things, and by the way, I bought an online business," and then you move on to something else. I need to know about this. So a lot of people, they're home during this extended version, unfortunately, this extended pandemic that's so much longer than we thought we would be home. Of course it's good to start an online business, but not everyone has to start from scratch. Sometimes if you have the resources you could actually buy something and give yourself a jumpstart. And it sounds like that's what you did. So tell us about this decision to buy an online business and what you did. What is it?

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. So as a financial educator, I realized that a lot of my income was service-based. It was based on my ability to show up to coach my audience and everything else, and I wanted something that was easier to scale. That's how I thought about it before I bought the business, easier to scale. I knew I did not want to come up with a new concept, create a new brand and everything else. And so my sister, who had just closed her Shopify store, asked me... She said, "I know you're interested in potentially purchasing another business. Have you checked out the Shopify exchange?" And I hadn't heard of it, but I went to check it out immediately. And she then sent me this company, Club Loofah. And she just typed, "I think that you could really do something with this. It's a great concept."

Tonya Rapley:
And so I started to look into it more, and I thought to myself, "Wow, this is a really good concept." It is essentially a bath subscription business, a bath tool subscription business, because most people don't realize that you're supposed to replace your loofah every three to four weeks. Your loofah, your sponge, whatever it is you use in a bathroom, before it starts smelling, before it starts crumbling, you're to replace it. So we reached out to the owner, and he was about to actually close the doors, because he hadn't had any bites or anyone that had... He had a few conversations, but no one that was really serious. [inaudible 00:06:09], "Hey, the money's in escrow. Let's do this." So we ended up buying the business from him. He was actually based in Riverside, California at that time. We were living in Los Angeles, so we drove up to Riverside with a U-Haul, got all the inventory that he had on him-

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, right, so you actually have to take inventory, because I have-

Tonya Rapley:
It is not drop shipping. Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
I do drop shipping for my grownup gear.

Tonya Rapley:
It is not drop shipping. We do not have a fulfillment center just right now. And so that's the thing. We got the items from them. We just started learning the e-commerce business when it came to loofahs. When we purchased the company, one of the things that was attractive to me was that it already had subscribers. It was a subscription business. So the day that we purchased the company, they had new orders, because it billed monthly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, why was he selling it? Presumably... I would always be suspicious. If someone's selling a business, you kind of go, "Well, why?" Because maybe if it's a good business, why would he sell it? So I would be wondering, what are the red flags?

Tonya Rapley:
So the reason he was selling it actually was because he inherited the business from the previous owner. So there was a previous owner who started the business for her daughters because she wanted to teach her daughters entrepreneurship. Then her daughters lost interest in it, and she didn't have the capacity to manage it, but he was already onboard as the marketing officer, the chief marketing officer, so he bought it. He believed in the business, thought it was a good company. He took it over. But then his father passed away, and he decided that he didn't want to do things just because anymore. He wanted to live a more purpose-focused life.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I have not seen this site before you, but it has a really nice editorial focus, and that's something that that is one of your strengths. Tell us more about the changes that you then brought in.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. Thank you very much, because when I bought the company, it was very fun and kitschy, and one of the things we realized was, if we're going to compete with the Targets... And we're not going to compete with Target and Amazon. We cannot drive our prices low enough to compete with them, so we have to appeal to a different demographic, someone who value self-care, who is willing to invest in their self-care and what's a higher end feeling product. And so we rebranded to go for a higher end. And so now the products that we're rolling out are more luxury-focused, or they're items that you can't find in your drug store. That was very intentional. And we wanted to clean it up a little bit. The company was based in California, so it was very beachy, Hollister... Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
When you look back, what would you have done differently? Are there questions you would have asked that you would advise people that are looking to buy an online business that's already somewhat established... What should they go in knowing that you wish you knew?

Tonya Rapley:
Absolutely. So when I bought the company, [inaudible 00:08:55], "Okay, it's bringing in revenue. You have XYZ subscribers. Cool. All right. Yeah, let's do this." Now I would definitely ask about their average order value, because the average order value determines if you can run ads. From my perspective, I was thinking, "All right, we're going to buy this company, and we're going to run ads, and we're just going to blow this out the water." But in order for ads to make sense, your average order value needs to be above what your minimum ad spend is going to be, or what it costs to acquire a customer.

Tonya Rapley:
They were taking a significant loss. They were selling these loofahs for 4.99 and doing free shipping. Ridiculous. So one of the things we did when I came in was changed the shipping model. We now charge 2.99 for shipping. And then we also increased the price point on some of the items. We allow the loofah, the classic loofah, to be the loss leader, but we increased the price points on some of the other items and introduced higher-priced items to the store as well, so that average order value and just the opportunity to bundle products... There wasn't really a strong opportunity to bundle products. So now we're in the final stages of developing a body care line so that you can bundle your body care with your loofah, since it's it's all body care anyway. So that's one of the questions I definitely, definitely would have asked, is average order value.

Tonya Rapley:
The retention rate was pretty good. Their retention rate... And that's a question, especially if you're buying a subscription business. How long does your average customer stay around? And do you have any existing customer service infrastructure in place? Because he was handling customer service inquiries. I found very early that I hated that aspect of the business, and we ended up hiring someone, but it would have been nice if there was somebody that came along with the company. So any personnel that would come that know the business outside of us going and doing training with you is another question that I probably would have asked. Those are the two big things we had to change, was... The average order value was a killer early on, because the company was basically losing money.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you really didn't know that when you bought it.

Tonya Rapley:
No, I didn't, and I should have asked for stronger financials, but I think that [inaudible 00:10:55] I was like, "It's a subscription business. How bad could it be? It's not to the point where they're searching for customers every month. I bought the customers with the business. How bad could it be?" Yeah, I didn't do the math on that one, Bobbi. I didn't think like, "Okay, this is a 4.99 loofah, and they're charging nothing. Free shipping. How much is shipping?" But we addressed that, and within the first year we increase the average order value I think by like 32%.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you do that?

Tonya Rapley:
We introduced a candle line, so most people were buying candles. And our candles are not... They're high-quality soy candles. Our candles were about 20... I think $28 for a candle. And so that definitely drives up, if you're buying a 4.99 loofah and a $28 candle. We introduced two higher end products, the ayate washcloth, and we actually just dropped our Japanese smoothing brush. So those aren't terribly expensive, but they're 10.99 and 11.99. And then we started adding bundle options. So when people checked out, we offer the upsell of a shower hook for people who don't have any hooks in their shower, so we offer that upsell. And then we also invited people to buy our family bundle, which was essentially four loofahs instead of one, just in case it's a family of four, and quite a few people decided to do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, you mentioned you wanted something that you could scale. Are you still bundling at home? Who is packaging this stuff up? You said you had no fulfillment center.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, so we still have a fulfillment manager. We do have a storage facility where we keep the things, and we have a facility manager, our fulfillment manager. So we are very hands-on still in that process. I don't pack the loofahs anymore, my husband doesn't, but our fulfillment manager does. And she's great. She's awesome. And that's something we had to look at when we were considering if it makes sense for us to place our products in a fulfillment center, which [inaudible 00:12:42] take about $2.80 to $3 per product, and our average order value just could not sustain that yet.

Tonya Rapley:
So maybe when we roll out the body care line... Our body care line is sulfate-free, microbiome friendly, and we've been really intentional about the body cream that we're creating. And we have a non-abrasive exfoliant that we're also rolling out a non-abrasive skin exfoliant, so it's papaya extract and natural fruit extract to help with skin turnover and cell turnover. So I think that once we roll those out, we might be in the zone of being able to send it to a fulfillment center, but maybe not. We have to see how our fulfillment manager feels, because we'll keep those profit margins... We'll grow them as long as we can, and we'll minimize the money that we're spending as much as we can.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I am impressed, as someone that started a small online business during the pandemic. The amount of detail that you're going into is incredible. You know all of your numbers. What is your best advice, before we wrap up, for people that are considering buying an online business? You went basically to the Shopify exchange, and you can look for whoever's selling a Shopify site. Is that what you advise? And what else?

Tonya Rapley:
It's work. It's work. And decide what works for you, drop shipping, or whether you're going to do the order fulfillment yourself. But you also have to ask yourself, "Do I have the endurance to grow this?" Because I think a lot of times we hear about these overnight successes when it comes to shop owners. They get placed in Oprah's most favorite things list and everything else. But what happens if it doesn't? What is your marketing strategy? My main advice would be, have a sound marketing strategy for how you're going to acquire customers and keep your customers, because if you don't have customers, you don't have a business.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true and such good advice. Okay. We know everyone needs to go to Club Loofah for sure. Where else can people find you and find out more about you and My Fab Finance and the community there? And also you have a 30 day shift program.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah. Yeah, because I don't have enough things going on, right, Bobbi?

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:14:44]. You need more.

Tonya Rapley:
So I decided to launch a personal coaching company, because a lot of women who didn't fall into the scope of work we do at My Fab Finance but wanted to know more about, "How do I confidently take on my next life phase?" And so I created a program, 30 day shift, for women who are looking to powerfully move into the direction of their next life shift. So that's at my personal platform. It's Tonya, T-O-N-Y-A, .rapley, or tonyarapley.com. If you go to that website, it actually has all of my companies. So it has a link to My Fab Finance. It has the link to Club Loofah. But if you're interested in Club Loofah, that website is actually loofah.club, so L-O-O-F-A-H.club.

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't know that. That's another question though. You got to get the URL there. That's another thing you got to be asking. Wow.

Tonya Rapley:
Clubloofah.com is not available. And one of the things I wanted to do was make sure that we were in it for the long haul before I invested in buying the domain from someone else. Actually, after this interview, we're finally finalizing our trademark application, because the business was not trademarked, or they abandoned their previous trademark, so we're trademarking. So now that we've been in it for almost two years now, I'm in a phase like, "Okay, let's do all the things that we need to do and probably should have done." So I'm going to... Hopefully in the next year clubloofah.com will be ours. I'm like, "Who had a Club Loofah other than us?" I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
And they're just squatting on the name.

Tonya Rapley:
They're squatting, waiting for someone like me to come buy it from them. Because that's a big business too. Think about it. Buying and selling domains is actually a big business.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is a big business. And when I named Grownup Gear Grownup Gear, I looked very carefully at what was available before I named a company. So that's also something to really look at, whether you start a company or buy a company. Look at the domain names that the company owns, because that's really important.

Tonya Rapley:
That is. That is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tonya, thank you so much. Oh, you didn't say your socials.

Tonya Rapley:
Oh. So My Fab Finance, that's M-Y-F-A-Bfinance.com. And then Tonya Rapley, so that's T-O-N-Y-A.rapley. And then Club Loofah is Club Loofah, C-L-U-B L-O-O-F-A-H.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome. So you have that on social media.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank goodness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank goodness.

Tonya Rapley:
Yeah, we have that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Good. Thanks so much.

Tonya Rapley:
Thank you, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends, there was a lot there, so much good stuff. I want to remind everyone full transcripts are available. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com. Go to the podcast section. You'll get the show notes and the transcripts.

Bobbi Rebell:
My take here is that whether you're going to start a business or you're going to buy a business, you need to know that it's going to be a lot of work, probably more than you expect, probably lots of surprises, and probably going to cost you a lot more than that purchase price. Yes, Tonya had customers. They were subscription-based. That's all good. But it wasn't a profitable business, and then she had to deal with that. You need a lot of, frankly, capital runway to manage a business when you're dealing with it initially and you don't really know what's coming at you. So make sure you ask all the questions you need to ask and that you're happy with the answers. The good news with buying a business is you do kind of get a headstart. She already had customers. That's great. You start in the middle. You have a concept there. But you also have challenges that were created by someone else, and you may not be aware of all of them, and they come at you a lot faster because you're already sort of in the middle. Make sure you're ready.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow or subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, reviews are so appreciated. I read every one, and they mean the world to me. Let me know what topics you want me to cover. DM me. And please follow me also on Instagram at bobbirebell1. And go to my website if you want to get on my newsletter list. Just as I said, bobbirebell.com. Pretty simple, guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please, support Tonya. She is amazing. Check out Club Loofah. Follow it on all the socials. And, of course, My Fab Finance and Tonya Rapley as well. Say thanks to Tonya for sharing her journey and for helping us all be financial grownups

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of 100s of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking out fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Want to have more power in the workplace? NPR’s Stacey Vanek Smith’s new book Machiavelli for Women takes the lessons from Machiacelli’s The Prince to give some specific and realistic ways to succeed.

Money Tips

Some money tips from the many amazing women Stacey references and interviews in her new book, Machiavelli for Women.

1. The money tip from Ruth Bader Ginsburg RBG about being interrupted and mansplained while being a Supreme Court justice.

2. The money tip from Sally Krawcheck on why people were much more open and receptive to an idea when using humor or distancing yourself from a controversial idea.

3. The money tip from Janet Yellen on why it’s important to create a place where people want to work and why making them feel supported is also so important.
   

Follow Stacey!

• Instagram - @svaneksmith

• Facebook - @staceyvaneksmith

• Twitter - @svaneksmith

• LinkedIn - @stacey-vanek-smith-4171ab13

• Website - www.staceyvaneksmith.com

• Book - Machiavelli for Women

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
A lot of the advice is cringy and it does feel backwards. It is disturbing to me to say stuff like, "If you smile more in an interview or bring up a personal or social connection with someone, you're more likely to get what you're negotiating. The negotiation is more likely to be successful." Or, "If you go into a negotiation with an adversarial attitude or you're feeling very assertive, that really could backfire. People will see you as pushy or aggressive. You should go in with a more collaborative, friendly attitude."

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends. In the words of our guest this week, a lot of the advice she's going to give is cringy. It is even disturbing and it feels kind of backwards, but the sad truth is that, well, it works. I've been trying it out, and she's right. I am talking about Stacey Vanek Smith. If you listen to public radio, you know her as the superstar journalist from NPR's Planet Money and The Indicator from Planet Money. She is out with a new book, Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win in the Workplace. It is a very high concept book. Stacey takes the 500-year-old ideas of Machiavelli and uses them as a reference point for advice for present date women. And guess what? The advice is really not what we usually hear at all. I'll share my thoughts about the book on the other side of the interview, but let's get right into it. Here is Stacey Vanek Smith. Stacey Vanek Smith, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Thanks, Bobbi. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am holding up, even though no one can see it as usual, I always seem to do that,, your new book Machiavelli for Women: Defend Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win the Workplace. This is a really ambitious book. How did you even come up with this concept of bringing in this 500-year-old manuscript book from Machiavelli that people really associate with male power to this concept to female power?

Stacey Vanek Smith:
To be honest, I kind of backed into the Machiavelli part. This book came about because I was frustrated personally. I've been covering business and economics for about 15 years in public radio, always in public radio. I had been, as part of that job, talking to a lot of economists, talking to a lot of business leaders, talking to CEOs. And so many of them are men. Economics is 75% male. CEOs are 80% male. For Fortune 500 companies, it's 90% male. And then the things like the gender pay gap. Women make about 80 cents on the dollar compared to what men make. That has been stuck for 10 years. At the same time in my own career, I've been reading a lot of advice books and listening to a lot of advice and just being really frustrated with the advice being offered to women. I felt like a lot of it didn't resonate with me.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I feel like there's a lot of girl power stuff that in my experience has not worked well. And then when I tried to use advice geared towards men, that definitely didn't work well. And I just wanted the truth. I just wanted some real advice. I was like, "Just give it to me straight." My mind just kept going back to Machiavelli. This class I had taken in college, I had read Machiavelli for that class and I hated Machiavelli. I thought he was so cynical and just very basic and obsessed with stupid things I didn't care about like crushing people and power and having... I didn't care about any of that stuff, obviously. I went into public radio. If I cared about money and power, I wouldn't have gotten into public radio. But I started thinking about Machiavelli and I re-read The Prince and all these lights went off in my brain. And that's how the project got started.

Bobbi Rebell:
Some of the advice, in your own words, that you give in this book is pretty disturbing. Tell us, what do you see as disturbing in this book?

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Yes, it's really disturbing. People have told me this. They're like, "A lot of the advice is cringy. It feels backwards." A lot of the advice is cringy and it does feel backwards. It is disturbing to me to say stuff like, "If you smile more in an interview or bring up a personal or social connection with someone, you're more likely to get what you're negotiating. The negotiation is more likely to be successful." Or, "If you go into a negotiation with an adversarial attitude or you're feeling very assertive, that really could backfire. People will see you as pushy or aggressive. You should go in with a more collaborative, friendly attitude." That is disturbing to me. But what is way more disturbing to me is that women are twice as likely to live in poverty after age 65 or that 80% of CEOs are men. That women are not getting the funding they need for their companies, so that even though 40% of businesses are started by women, 2% of venture capital goes to women.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
So, women's businesses were far more likely to fail during the pandemic because they just weren't capitalized. The same is true for minorities and the funding for those businesses actually fell last year, which is amazing to me. That is far more disturbing to me. And so a lot of the advice is advice I wish I didn't have to give. I wish that a lot of it we're different, but we are living in an unfair structure. All you have to do is look at the data and you see it. We're living inside of an economy that is not fair. And it is, also, it is a structure that is very powerful. It is a lot. There's a lot of money in our economy. There's a lot of power in our economy. It is changing, but it's changing pretty slowly and in certain ways it's stuck. And if you want to navigate it, I just at least wanted to give people the tools that they needed to navigate it and I wanted to be as honest as I could.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's hard to hear because I know I've been coached to not put, let's say, a little smiley face in an email or to not have these little soft filler sentences in there. But the truth is, you say in the book, that works when coming from a woman.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Oh, yes. The softener. This is super interesting to me, too. So, I've been beating myself up about this for years. Overuse of exclamation points, overuse of emoji, lots of softeners. "Hey, how's it going? I was just wondering if XYZ." And I've been beating myself up about this. Why do I say this all the time? Why do I say things like, "You know, I was just thinking." Why do I say this when I'm introducing an idea? But studies show that men actually are more open to ideas and retain things that women say more when softeners are used. Softeners work. That's why we use them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And it's interesting because, as I said, we have been coached to take those out. In terms of money tips, one thing that I really enjoyed in the book is that you refer to and interview some incredible women. So, I want to go through three of my favorites. So, the first one that you reference is RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, with some mansplaining and interrupting that famously went on with someone that actually was before her. I mean, she was in the position of power and yet this was happening. Tell us about that and how she dealt with it and what people can take away from that.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
This is one of the most amazing anecdotes in the book. It came from a study that came out a few years ago that looked at Supreme Court transcripts to study interruptions. And what they found was that female justices on the Supreme Court got interrupted three times more often than male justices, even though they spoke less and used fewer words when they did speak. What was even more shocking was that the lawyers arguing cases before the Supreme Court were also interrupting female justices, even though they are not allowed to interrupt justices. They would just jump in and interrupt female justices quite frequently, including Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And as someone who has really struggled to be heard...

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I'm in media so it's a lot of pitch meetings, ideas meetings. I've had my ideas stolen a million times. I've been talked over, interrupted, people forget I said things all the time. I mean, this is something that's definitely happened to me in my career in life. And I felt so relieved. Just like, "This happens to Ruth Bader Ginsburg?" I thought I was just messing up. But no, if it's happening to Ruth Bader Ginsburg, I think you can assume that it happens to literally everyone. It's just most of us don't have as much power as Ruth Bader Ginsburg had.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another incredible woman that you did talk to in the book is Sallie Krawcheck. She's featured pretty prominently throughout the book. There's some things that you reveal in the book and I'm going to just leave it to people. I'm going to tell people it's on page 85. So, you can go to the book and look it up when you buy the book. You can learn about some of the truly offensive things that I don't even want to go there on this podcast. What's the Machiavellian lesson that we learn from her? She has a great sense of humor.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
She has a great sense of humor, and she's so honest and she sees so clearly. It was such a privilege to talk with her because when I asked questions, she never couched anything. She was just completely direct and honest. I learned a lot of things from her. One of my favorite lessons from Sallie was she said, "A lesson I think people don't get enough is that this is not your fault." She's like, "It ends up kind of falling on women and marginalized workers to deal with an unfair workplace. But the fact the workplace is unfair is not your fault. And the fact that it's falling on you to deal with it is really unfair." There was a lot of relief in that because, I mean, all the time and energy we spend strategizing to get paid more, to get promoted more quickly, or to get promoted at an equal level as our white male colleagues with hair, that's time we could be spending on other things, on life or Netflix or coming up with brilliant ideas or playing with our kids.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Instead, we have to spend it doing things like reading articles on how to get more out of your negotiation, trying to figure out why you're underpaid and things like that. My other favorite pieces of advice from Sallie Krawcheck had to do with leadership. Of course, she was working in the super male world of Wall Street, super male world of Wall Street, and trying to give orders to people who did not necessarily want to take direction from a woman, were not excited about that. Two things she said she would do. One, she used humor. Humor as a softener, actually. She would use humor and make jokes. And she said, "It's really hard for people to hate you if they're laughing with you," which I thought was pretty brilliant.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
And the other thing she would do is distance herself from her ideas. And I've started using this and it's amazing how well it works. So, I mean, if she felt very strongly like, "We need to go in direction B," she would just say, "You know, I was just thinking, I'm not sure I believe this, but why don't we try direction B and just see how that works out?" And she said people were much more open and receptive than they were if she came guns blazing out of the gate, "I feel strongly we need to go in direction B."

Bobbi Rebell:
And that brings us to the third woman that I want to highlight, which is Janet Yellen. So, former Fed chair, treasury secretary. You titled her section, The Power of Preparation and Pulling Up Your Socks. Tell us more about her style because she really took a feminine approach to managing an office. Again, very male environment at the Fed.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Janet Yellen told me that she did not think managing people was hard. She was like, "You just tell people that you value their work, you support them in their work, and you make sure they feel valued." And I was like, "Oh, well, yeah." But I think part of the reason Janet Yellen has gotten so much support is because that is what she gives people. She gives people support. She thinks about what will make them happy, what will motivate them. And I mean, it's very simple, but I mean, not all managers do that. I would say almost no managers do that. It's really rare. And the fact she just said, "Oh, managing people isn't hard," was hilarious to me, but I think she comes by it honestly. I think she just cares about the work and respects the people doing the work and conveys that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I think that represents one of the common themes in the book, which is that you have to be very practical. You can be idealistic and say, "I don't want to be the woman that gets my ideas heard because I have a sense of humor and make people laugh or present them in a softer way," as with Sallie Krawcheck, or with Janet Yellen talking about, "I just want to have a place where people want to work." But perception and what we want to be isn't always the practical solution. And I love that this book has a lot of very specific and practical ideas for the readers. It also has a lot of you in it. It's very personal. You reveal a lot that I did not know. I've listened to your work for as long as I could remember. Tell us, why did you get so personal? Because you do reveal a lot of vulnerable moments in your life.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Yes. That was a conscious choice simply because, for me reading books about career advice, the advice always seems to be given a little bit from on high, like from an expert, and it makes it very hard to connect with people. So, I wanted to be very honest about where I was coming from. I'm like, "Listen, I don't like negotiating. Historically, I've been abysmally terrible at it. I have not had success in negotiation. I've avoided them studiously, for years often." I wanted to be honest about where I was coming from, because that is honestly where I was coming from. I have a lot of these issues I was exploring for myself. I didn't know what I would find. I didn't know what the research would show. I didn't know what people would say. But I wanted to be honest about my own experiences, the good and the bad, just so that people would understand that I've also been through this, too, some of these things.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I wanted to be honest about the experiences that I had had in the hopes that it would make people who are maybe frustrated feel less alone. And also that they would know that it wasn't just like, "Oh, well I have had this transplendent career with no moments of self-doubt and I've just gone from peak to peak and it's been amazing, but I understand some of you people are having trouble, so here's my advice." I wanted to be totally honest about some of the experiences and some of the hardest experiences in my career. I thought that vulnerability was important.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I agree. And I think that it really works for the book and I think it's going to be very appreciated by the readers. And I know it certainly really hit home with me because I put you on a pedestal and hearing that there were times that really sucked in your career and knowing that, I think, makes you so much more relatable. It makes the book so much more relatable, and I really think it is appreciated. Stacey Vanek Smith, this has been so wonderful. Tell us more. We know the book is going to be everywhere. Where can people reach you? Besides, of course, hosting. We didn't even say. You host The Indicator.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
I host the podcast, The Indicator from Planet Money. There's my website, which is staceyvaneksmith.com. I wasn't very creative in the naming of it, but you can contact me through that site. I'm also on Twitter @svaneksmith, V-A-N-E-K Smith. Or Facebook, or I'm also on LinkedIn. So, you can message me any of those ways. And oh, I'm also on Instagram. All the social media things, or you can just email me through my website.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Stacey Vanek Smith:
Thank you so much, Bobbi. It was such a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, friends, a brief recap. You were warned. The advice is, yeah, I think you guys all agree with me, it's pretty cringy. But it works. And we have proof now because we talked about three women in our interview, and if you go through the book, there's a lot more real life examples of exactly how, well, kind of messed up it is, but better to know than to be ignorant. And we learned that even some of the most remarkable women, we talked about RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sallie Krawcheck, and Janet Yellen, they've had to use these Machiavellian principles to manage their careers. And yes, even all-star journalists like Stacey Vanek Smith have had major career setbacks by doing what we're kind of told to do even though, as we know, it's not what works. The hardest part about this interview was actually having to end it because there is so much we did not get to, but it's all in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:
And so I hope you guys are going to step up and challenge yourself and pick up a copy. So, this book, maybe it feels a little intimidating when you first see it. Trust me, it is worth the effort. And once you get into it, you're not going to be able to put it down. Settle in. Read it this fall. Most of the books here, I talk about being a quick read, page-turners and so on. And there are times when I meant to put down the book and it was the end of a chapter and I said, "Oh, I'm going go and make dinner and do something else," but then I read just a few more pages and got back into it. But honestly, this is a book to savor and really let the concepts settle in and sometimes flip back and reread a little section to make sure that you really get the point and can apply it to what's going on in your life. It's worth it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, my friends. This podcast, it's free and that's wonderful. I put so much effort into it and I want to spread the word. I want to grow my audience and I need your help. Please share it with your friends, post on social media, and if you're not already, please do follow or subscribe depending on what podcast platform you listen to. They use different words these days. I think you know what I mean. We want to make sure that you get the podcasts on a regular basis. And by the way, if that platform is Apple or any other platform that allows reviews, please leave a review. I read them all and I truly appreciate all of your support. I also appreciate the fabulous Stacey Vanek Smith, author of Machiavelli for Women, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley [Wall 00:19:14]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Michele Cagan, author of The Financial Recovery Workbook and a CPA joins us to share strategies to recover from life’s inevitable financial setbacks

4 Money Tips to Recover from a Financial Crisis

1. Understand your emotional relationship with money

2. Know your financial facts

3. Don't wait for the perfect plan

4. Don’t follow all the personal finance rules during a crisis

Follow Michele!

• Instagram - @michelecagancpa

• Facebook - @michelecagancpa

• Twitter - @michelecagancpa

• Website - MicheleCaganCPA.com

• Michele’s Book - The Financial Recovery Workbook

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code grownup for 15% off, your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Michele Cagan:
If you are at the beginning of a crisis and you know it's going to last, the problems, the financial ones are going to last for a while, you should borrow money as soon as you can, because by the time you need to borrow that money, your credit is going to be shot, and you're not going to be in as good a position to borrow it.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of how to be a financial grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being thrown up is hard, but together we've got this. Hey, grownup friends. This is the episode I wish I had done back in March of 2020 because we're going to be talking about how to recover from my financial crisis. And boy yeah, we needed that when the world shut down back then, but we have it now. Better, late than never, right? Michele Cagan is a CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook, which is a step-by-step plan for what to do when we are hit by a financial crisis. As we go through our adult lives, many of us and those we care about, will get hit with something. It could be a massive unexpected medical bill, divorces, job losses, or just bad luck that hits us financially.

Bobbi Rebell:
What I loved about my interview with Michele, is that not only were we able to discuss very specific ways to deal with a financial crisis, she was also pretty bold about breaking the rules of what we expect experts to tell people to do. She also reveals her own unexpected financial crisis and shares her personal experience, which I really appreciated because just because you're a money expert doesn't mean it can't happen to you. We're all vulnerable at some point in our lives, often at a lot of points. Here is Michele Cagan, CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook. Michelle Cagan. You're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Michele Cagan:
Hi Bobbi, thank you so much for having me on.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm excited to have you on to talk about your latest book, which is also your 12th book. It is called The Financial Recovery Workbook. Now you brought with you specific action items, but before we get to them, what inspired this book? Was there a certain aha moment that said, now is the time after 11 other books?

Michele Cagan:
Well, I've actually had some big financial setbacks in the past few years related to health issues in my family. I was struggling to recover from some of those. And I thought I'm a financial professional and if I'm having a hard time dealing with all these financial pieces, I can't even imagine someone who's uncomfortable or isn't an expert in finance is going to do. So I put together some of the stuff I used with my clients and some of the stuff I used myself. And I thought, let me put this all together in a book that can help people get through things in a way that's manageable step-by-step and will be sustainable so that they can use the skills that they're learning forever in their money journey.

Bobbi Rebell:
And I love the tone of the book because and people can hear it in your voice right now that there's an empathy because so often we vilify people for being in financial crisis. When very often, the things that happen, happen to them, like COVID, for example, that were not in their control that, well, of course you can plan for a rainy day, as they say, and have an emergency fund. Life happens, right?

Michele Cagan:
Absolutely. Most people's emergency funds. Unfortunately aren't big enough to weather a true crisis.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true. And so many things we can't possibly predict. Let's get into your fourth things, your solutions really, that can help us in financial crisis. The first one is actually really the most important I would say, because it's really about taking a step back and assessing things.

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. The very first thing that is helpful to do is to acknowledge, understand, and welcome your existing emotional relationship with money, especially during a crisis. A crisis situation could be something like a divorce or a job loss. They all come with their own huge set of anxiety, fear, self-blame, shame. And it's really hard to separate the emotions from financial tasks and that can leave you completely stuck or make it impossible to move forward. So even if you can't overcome or get rid of emotions, which I'm not suggesting that you do, acknowledge that they're there, pay attention to them, and realize that sometimes when you feel like you can't do something, it's one of your emotions kicking in. And once you face that it can help you take the next step.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Especially during a crisis, our emotions can be our worst enemy or our best assets. So, that's the first thing, is to really understand our emotional relationship with money. The second thing you want to talk about is knowing the financial facts so that we can have the best foundation for moving forward. Tell us more about that.

Michele Cagan:
Even not during a crisis, millions of people have anxiety around money and finances and they don't look at it. They don't want to see it. They don't want to look at their bank accounts or their credit card statements, but when you're in a crisis, it's even more important to know what resources you have. You need to know, how much money I have, where can I get more money from? How much space do I have on my credit cards? How much equity do I have in my house? You need to know what your available resources are, so that you can use them in the most effective way and not run out.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that really holds people back though, is that they don't want to make the wrong move. And not only that, they want to make the perfect decision. That's your third thing to talk about, right?

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. That's a really big sticking point. And that honestly happens to me sometimes too. It causes a decision paralysis because you feel like if I do the wrong thing, X, Y, and Z are going to happen. If I do this wrong thing, I'm going to lose my house. And especially when you're emotional, the consequences that you attach to any specific move can spiral and get even bigger. I'm going to end up homeless. My kid won't have dinner tonight kind of stuff. So making a plan, even if it's not a perfect plan, especially if it's not a perfect plan, anything that will help you take a step, one step at a time, because you can always change your plan. Even after you put it into place, if it's not working, you can change it. But if you don't start with a plan and start making moves, everything is just going to get worse.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what advice would you have for people who can't get over that hurdle? Can you give us maybe a real life example of someone that waited and can't make that next move because they're waiting for it to be perfect?

Michele Cagan:
Oh yeah, absolutely. So I was actually dealing with some really high medical bills and I don't know if you've had this experience, but when a child goes into the hospital, they don't tell you how much you're going to have to pay. It could be $200. It could be $20,000. You can't plan for it. You don't know what it's going to be until after all the bills come in. So I had an experience like that and I thought, it's going to be $3,000. And I planned on that and it ended up being a lot more than that because it didn't turn out the way I expected. And it was so different than what I expected.

Michele Cagan:
I went a little bit into anxiety mode where I was like, okay, I need to figure out exactly how I'm going to pay all of this off, where I'm going to get the money from. And I went through circles and circles and circles of the planing until finally I just said, okay, stop circling, make some phone calls, do one step at a time. Call and see if you can do a payment plan, see where you can move some money around and start taking steps instead of just thinking about the plan spiraling and it made a difference.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's the thing. We're talking about true financial crisis. These are not things that can be instantly solved in wrap it up with a bow and move on with your life. Sometimes there's going to be multiple and longterm steps to get out of it, right?

Michele Cagan:
Absolutely. And most people, in the immediate crisis, there are costs involved with that. But most of the kinds of crises that people face, again, job loss, health problems, a natural disaster, they have ongoing costs. If you have a health problem, you might need medicine or extra treatment or doctor visits for six months or five years. It's not just a one and done thing. With a divorce, you have to set up a whole new household. Your childcare is different. You need health insurance in a different way. So many things change and there are so many moving parts that you really need to work not just small picture, but big picture, but you still have to start with the next step.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well said. The fourth one is something that people don't like to say, but I think it's genius. You say that during a crisis, the normal personal finance rules don't apply. So don't follow them. Everyone's always saying follow the things that we know. If you have debt, these are the different things that you can do to pay down the debt. You can use the snowball method. You can use the avalanche method. And this is not just applying to debt. When you say it's okay to break the rules in the crisis, what does that mean? And give us some examples.

Michele Cagan:
So, if somebody's having money a tight finance ... Something came up, they really need more space in their financial. The first thing I tell them to do is stop making retirement plan contributions. Just stop.

Bobbi Rebell:
Really?

Michele Cagan:
Yeah. If you're able to make it up later, that's fine. But if you're choosing between keeping your electricity on or making your mortgage payment and putting money in your retirement account, skip the retirement account for now. I also tell people that, for example, if you are at the beginning of a crisis and you know it's going to last the problems, the financial problems are going to last for a while, you should borrow money as soon as you can because by the time you need to borrow that money, your credit is going to be shot and you're not going to be in as good a position to borrow it.

Michele Cagan:
It's the opposite of what I would normally tell anyone to do. But in a crisis situation, you need to expand your available, your currently available resources, as much as possible. Locking money away in a retirement account, that's not a smart choice because if you need to pull it back out, you've got penalties. You've got interest, you've got taxes if nothing else, unless you put it in a Roth IRA, which is a different situation. I'm just talking more about 401k through work. If you need to use credit cards to make your budget, normally I would tell people, if you can't make your budget without using credit cards, you need to change your budget. But in a crisis situation, if you need to use your credit cards to buy your kids medicine, you do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Michele Cagan:
You use all the financial space you have, and then you work on getting everything under control and managing it better. And then, you can recover financially after the crisis is settled down.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us a few more tips before I let you go because this is really interesting. I'm sitting here and I'm really processing what you're saying. And I think a lot of our listeners are as well. This is really, I hate the expression thinking out of the box. It's so tired, but it really applies in this case because everything you're saying in the context of a crisis does make sense. And yet, it is breaking so many rules.

Michele Cagan:
I know. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of financial professionals who hate this book because of that, quite frankly, I think another thing that's really important for people to do is prioritize their expenses in order of survival. So a lot of times in budgeting advice, it's always money into savings first, money into retirement first. And what I'm saying here is, you pay your house, food, electricity, car, before you do anything else. You need to make sure you can get to a job interview, to the doctor. You need food, you need to live in your house.

Michele Cagan:
And yes, maybe you can downsize some of those expenses, but those are your priorities, your immediate survival expenses are what to focus on. Another thing that I tell people they can do is increase your insurance deductible so that you'll have lower premiums because right now, the current cash matters more than anything else. People can maybe not look at their credit scores for a few months, because it's very possible that during a crisis, their utilization is going to go up and it's going to drop their credit score. It doesn't mean they're a bad person. It doesn't mean they're a big risk. It means that right now, they need to use their available resources. And then, when things are back on track, everything else will fall into place.

Bobbi Rebell:
If we know of a friend or relative who's in a financial crisis, what is the best way to help them? Because we get a lot of mixed messages. Of course, we want to be there for friends and family, but we're also told, you can't always afford to just be ... Sometimes you worry about being an enabler, depending on what caused the crisis. You want to be there for them, but maybe you can't afford to give them money and you want to loan them, but you don't know how things are spiraling out of control. What is the best way to be there for people?

Michele Cagan:
I think one of the best ways to be there for people is honestly just to listen and not try to fix things for them. That's something that a lot of people forget to do. They hear somebody talking about a problem and they immediately go into fix mode. But a lot of times, someone just wants to be able to listen without judgment and not have someone else swoop in. Just to acknowledge, hey, that situation really sucks. Maybe I can take your kids for a few hours. Would that be helpful for you? It doesn't always have to be about money. It has to do about care and support.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good point. And I love that idea of helping with other things that don't necessarily cost you money, but maybe you can help them with their money situation. Because if you can maybe take their kids and give them free babysitting, or maybe you give them a ride to work, if they don't have a car at that time, things like that, maybe are ways that you can help people that are going through a financial crisis. This has been wonderful, Michele. Where can people find out more about you and pick up the book?

Michele Cagan:
They can visit my website, which is MicheleCaganCPA.com. And the book, I think is now available pretty much everywhere.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are your social channels?

Michele Cagan:
I'm on Twitter @MicheleCaganCPA, Facebook at Michele Cagan CPA, and Instagram. Guess what? It's Michele Cagan CPA.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you Michele Cagan CPA for joining us. This has been great. I love the book. I know a lot of our listeners are going to get so much value out of this, not just for themselves, but also for the people that they care about. So thank you so much.

Michele Cagan:
Thank you so much for having me on.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here's my take friends. It was really refreshing to hear someone be so real about the stuff that we really don't talk about. A quick recap here. Michele reminds us not to let her emotions get the best of us in a crisis and to actually look at the numbers. It's really hard sometimes, but that's really the only way we're going to know exactly what we're dealing with in terms of how big a crisis is. We also can't wait for the perfect plan. We may be choosing from a bad plan versus an even worse plan. And that is why we may need to break some of the rules we have been told well, to never break. Her book, The Financial Recovery Workbook, is just that, a workbook. It has lots of tools and worksheets to actually execute a lot of the money tips that we've shared on this episode. For more on the podcast, make sure you go to my website, bobbirebell.com and just click on the podcast tab where you can get show notes and full transcripts of every show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Finally, if you enjoy this podcast, I could really use your help. Please tell a friend. You can tell more than one friend, and if you have a free moment, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts and also make sure you're following the podcast. Wherever you listen to you automatically get new episodes once a week. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to listen and to Michele Cagan, CPA and author of The Financial Recovery Workbook, for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

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Grownups need to step up and do some planning for things we don’t want to even think about let alone admit we need to be ready to do. The duo behind Women Who Money join us to share their absolute must-do’s right now-without waiting another minute- from their new book Estate Planning 101.

5 Money Tips for Planning for the Unexpected

1 - Know your net worth 

2 - Speaking of insurance 

3 - Name your beneficiaries 

4 - Protect yourself in case of emergency 

5 - Protect your assets and minor children

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi and her guests reveal their connections to MDLNY and share exclusive insider secrets and money lessons learned from the Bravo reality tv series focused on high end New York Real Estate agents in the final installment of the financial grownup summer watch party series. 

A Little About The Show

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Well, we have to get into it because I also want to reveal the secret connection to the show that we all have. But let's briefly describe what the show is for the few people that have not seen it. It's been running for a lot of years, but we're going to focus mainly on the present year because it's really awesome. Million-dollar Listing has us following a glamorous group of New York city, real estate agents, as they jostled to get the big deals. And I always find the title funny guys, because I don't think there's ever been a deal where it was close to even just a million. These are mega deals. This season, thankfully, finally, we had a woman join the cast, which besides being obviously long overdue is also where you come in, Paulette.

Paulette Perhach:
Yes. I work with KJ bringing her power and her incredible spirit into the written word for her. I work as her writer, so it's like I get the KJ live show and she's a powerhouse. She's had an incredible effect on me as a businesswoman, just over the last year, working with her.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right and KJ, I should say is short for Kirsten-Jordan who's wonderful and she has been rising through the ranks of brokers. I don't know how she was not well known before this show because she is phenomenal. And through you Paulette, Erin and I have met her right Erin?

Erin Lowry:
Sure have. It was my first real life Bravo celebrity meeting and can I just say, I'm going to disclaimer this right now. I'm a massive Bravo fan. I watch every version of the real Housewives, but I had never watched a million dollar listings before about 24 hours before recording with this podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get into the show. First of all, each of you ladies general take on the show.

Paulette Perhach:
So I obviously have been watching it. I have it on my calendar when it comes out. I see how hard KJ works behind the scenes and then to see how it's all glammed up and like, "Oh, I'm throwing a party to sellers." And it looks so easy. So it's really fun to see behind the scenes how hard she's working. I find it inspiring. You do have to control your FOMO at like, "I will never have a pool in my New York City apartment." But in the same way that part of my business plan came from watching Shark Tank, I think we could all learn about sales from watching Million Dollar Listing and just get some fabulous decorating ideas that we can try to recreate an Ikea.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
The negotiating and sales tips and how to create a scarcity environment when one doesn't necessarily exist are really impressive takeaways from the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
On almost every episode in almost every deal the brokers come in and I'm shocked that people sometimes allow themselves to be filmed this way, knowing they're going to be basically talked about behind their back and yet on national TV about their bad taste because they come in and they basically swoop in, get rid of their stuff and stage it, which is insulting to the people that own it. To me, that's a mini-lesson about the illusion and going to something I know Paulette is very good at, which is storytelling because they basically take out the owner's story and put in the story of what they think will be worth the most money.

Paulette Perhach:
Or neutral. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:08:56]. They neutralize it.

Paulette Perhach:
So you can envision your own story without it being... That 11 Madison, I think it was, "mansion", that was a 3000 square feet inside 3000 square feet outside. That was so gaudy. It had the gold couch. I was deeply stressed watching this episode and yeah, it made sense, where it was like, "It's better to have it empty than to have this gold couch in here."

Bobbi Rebell:
The that I thought about that episode was when Tyler rented the band, I was like, "Couldn't you have just rented couches for a night instead of a band?"

Paulette Perhach:
Well, that's what Ryan Serhand said. He's like "There's chairs for the musicians, but not chairs for the brokers who are here to help you sell your place. What are young doing?"

Bobbi Rebell:
It also to the point of FOMO, I think that it also helps you see behind the curtain in some ways, even though, I'm interested to see what Paulette says about what really goes on behind the scenes more, but it helps you see that so much of what we buy is a marketing illusion. That when they stage an apartment and we see them remake it in relative to the price inexpensive way, although I'm mortified at what they spend to stage. It can be crazy money to stage these things. They're presenting it so it can sell, but there's nothing under there. Half the time the bed doesn't even have a real mattress. It's not even an actual bed and you can't actually use it. It's all for show.

Erin Lowry:
In context for people about crazy amount of money. We're talking between 70 to $150,000 to stage a lot of these apartments.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is an inconceivable film. If a broker came to me and said that would just walk away.

Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Erin Lowry:
It's interesting too, on the point of what they have to do to the apartment. And I'm really curious, Paulette for you to speak to what they as sellers have to be doing. The clothing that they have to wear, the hairstyles, they have to have the amount of upkeep of their own appearance. You see on the first episode of the season, Tyler, who I assume is a fairly new addition, maybe it was their last season season.

Bobbi Rebell:
Last season.

Erin Lowry:
He talks about the clothing that he's having to buy the amount of money he's having to put into presentation so that his vibe is matching his desired clientele's vibe. And that's a huge upfront cost. Sure, we're seeing that they're getting these commissions of like 250, half a million dollars, but also how much are they having to sink into the business as a whole? And that includes themselves.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah. So Frederick says to spend 10% of your commissions on your wardrobe, which is a ton. That's crazy.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're making shocked expressions by the way.

Paulette Perhach:
Shocked emoji faces. And actually Kirsten and I are working on a blog post about her deciding like what is spending and what's investing and it is so funny because when you are on the other side of the illusion, this is something that I struggle with personally, as a writer and as an artist and someone who hopes to deal in truth, but also wants to own a house one day. You know that by creating you can make more money and yet how much of your life do you want to spend in illusion and how much... I know for example, if I buy a bunch of fancy clothes and I pretend like my life is all fine and dandy on Instagram and just take pretty pictures all over the place, then I'll get more followers, I'll make more money, but how far do you want to go from that in a personal way?

Paulette Perhach:
So anyway, that's my artist's side of the thing. But yeah, I know there's a lot of pressure to match that vibe and the fashion vibe of your clients, which is a lot. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of planning and it's a consideration as an investment and I think more and more as my own business owner, I do realize that the face that I present to the world, I want it to be like the best expression of me and the way that I think about it as a business owner is fashion and preparing myself in a way that says, "Hey, I'm in here. This is me. And I'm in here." I want to like dress to celebrate the day. Someone said, "Dressing well as good manners."` And I really liked that phrasing. So there's so many levels to take it. And yeah, I think that when you were selling to people at the highest level of income, there is pressure to look like them and to look like them cost a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
Oh, I agree. I also think it's interesting what of that is a tax deduction and what isn't, when you come to thinking about investing in yourself? I remember a couple of years ago, and if you couldn't tell from my feelings about designing my home, I feel the same way about clothing. I am bad at that. That is just a pain point I know I have. I was never taught how to dress cute fashion is not my thing.

Erin Lowry:
If I could wear athleisure all the time and get away with it socially, I definitely would. But I also realized that's a pain point you can outsource. So a couple of years ago, I hired a stylist to work with to try to learn how to dress to my body.

Erin Lowry:
What kind of brands looked good on me? How to put certain pieces together, working with what I already had in my closet. And what was interesting is because it's for a lot of professional engagements and it was professional clothing, the stylist fee could be a deduction, but the clothing itself could not. So it's always interesting, depending on your job, what you could write off and what you can't. I know people who model, for instance, I think there's certain hair, nail, stuff, type upkeep that they could possibly get a write off on. So I'm curious with luxury real estate, what are the rules for them? What is reasonable right off?

Paulette Perhach:
[crosstalk 00:14:21] have to wear makeup and heels and nice clothes to work, to make more money, that is a cost of doing business and I want to put it on my taxes. I also don't want to be audited.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah, that's a big part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
This last year in 2020, every woman should be able to put makeup on their tax deduction if we're all doing Zoom meetings all the time.

Erin Lowry:
Yes.

Paulette Perhach:
Other people did used to see you in person anyway, I don't know. I think it would be nice. I don't know. That's a whole topic. That's a rabbit hole.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a whole rabbit hole.

Paulette Perhach:
Get out while you can.

Bobbi Rebell:
What else can you share with us that you've learned from working with KJ about the show and maybe the lessons that she's learned? By the way, she's been on the podcast and she should have been there all along and there should be the fact that there's one woman and we have to make a big deal out of it is stupid. There just should be many women and whatever.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah because 64% of realtors are women.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly. But the fact is it is what it is. For now she came into this group of men, she more than held her own. So can we just talk about that dynamic a little bit and the lessons that maybe women can learn when they are suddenly as unjust as it is brought into a group of men?

Paulette Perhach:
Gosh, I think that there's... Kirsten's a powerhouse, but also just a very kind person and does it in this way where she stands in her power in such an inspiring way to me, and knows her value and is honest with people and direct, but doesn't have to come in throwing blows. It's not about anyone else it's about her and how she brings value to the situation.

Paulette Perhach:
It's like a race against herself and it's all an internal thing. It's not me versus the world, is that the sense that I get with her. And just overall watching the show as someone who is a writer who writes artistically and writes for my business, just seeing how much value storytelling has in sales. It's incredible. Every sale is a story. And for me, with writers who I have such a hard time getting my coaching clients to ask for money. Erin and Bobby, you guys have been such a part of my personal journey, learning to ask for money and learning to ask for what I'm worth. And it's just very cool to see that in this ecosystem where a lot of money is being thrown around that writers are an a central part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
And KJ is awesome because she helps moms see that if they want to have it all, they can't do it all and they need to learn to delegate and to outsource and if they want to be working moms, running their own empire. And so she's open about having a writer. She's not out there pretending, "Oh yes, I do. I have eight arms and I'm irony with my foot as I type out my marketing emails," and things like that. She is so transparent in a way that I think is not only an inspiration, but also a model to follow for other realtors.

Erin Lowry:
I also think an interesting part of her narrative is who you marry has a really big impact on your career. Especially for women, particularly those of us in heterosexual relationship dynamics, where it still tends to people defer to men more often than not. She married somebody who's also in the business, but does a different side of the business so that they can collaborate and be collaborators and push each other, but also work together.

Erin Lowry:
And I thought it was really to hear a little insight to boundary setting between the two of them. In the early episode, they talk about one of the listings that he had, that she said "I was too far along in my pregnancy to take it on when it went to market." And that's just a little boundary that you heard gets set with these two people who clearly work together a lot, but don't work for the same company, do different sides in the real estate industry. But on the flip side, she goes to Tyler's open house at the "mansion" location and her husband's there. Her husband's a developer. He can schmooze with the developer that owned the place. They can go up and see the penthouses that aren't listed. It's a very interesting ecosystem that they can create for themselves too, to really both be powerful in their own right, but also be powerful together.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good point. She also puts her kids in the show. She doesn't hide that she is a working mom. Some of the other people on the show have kids as well and we see them with the moms, primarily taking care of the kids, which is interesting. We got to see a lot more of the cast. I know Erin, you didn't watch other seasons of it, but we will see more of their home life because of the pandemic. And so the final money lesson strategy that I wanted to touch on was adapting to the unexpected because the show was filming while this all happened. They started filming before the pandemic and then on from there. And I met KJ through Paulette during the pandemic and I was like, "Wait, what? You're you're filming now? How is that working? You can't even show real estate." So I was truly impressed as I've been seeing the episodes of how they adapted their businesses in literally an impossible environment. They were not allowed. There were robots there. It was awesome and ridiculous at the same time. What do you guys think?

Erin Lowry:
I jumped ahead to a pandemic episode because first it was very jarring and the opening episodes that no one had masks on. I was like, "What? Who's walking around New York city without a mask what's going on here?" And they make it clear that we're backdating before the pandemic now the pandemic hit. So the two things that I found really intriguing: one, is his name Steve?Stephen? The guy who had the luscious hair that he shaved off

Paulette Perhach:
He's a former mode, by the way.

Erin Lowry:
It was said multiple times. I got that and I watched three episodes. So he went out and diversified immediately by getting his license in other states. Because as soon as stuff started fleeing Manhattan going upstate and all that property was getting hot and heavy. He got his license, I think in Massachusetts and Connecticut, in addition to having it in New York so that he could diversify out, which I thought was really interesting. And then also Ryan Serhand deciding to double down on starting his own company and making the comment about, "When others are fleeing, that's when you really need to put the pedal to the metal." As someone who did take some time off in the pandemic, because I was exhausted, it was a very interesting other side argument.

Bobbi Rebell:
You did take time off, but you also had your third seller come out. Let's just everybody of the Broke Millennials series. Okay. Those were great standup moments. Paulette, what were your standout moments?

Paulette Perhach:
I think it reminded me as a business person to just delve down into what is your core value? And accepting whatever comes our way, even though 2020 seemed like the most unacceptable year in the history of the world as we all know it. For example, I was inspired by it's Sia's choreographer did an online dance class. That was the first time that I think I laughed during the pandemic. Then I started an online writing group that meets every morning. And so just seeing how they didn't let themselves spin out all the brokers on the show and there was just a lot of positive self-talk that you could see because it's so tempting to wallow and I find myself there too.

Paulette Perhach:
But it's so much about resilience and grit is catching yourself in those low moments and being like, "Okay, I accept that this is really hard and I'm going to feel bad for myself for the next 30 seconds." And then, "All right, come on. What can we do? What do we have control of?" It felt like our locus of control shrank down to the size of a pea during 2020, but within that tiny, tiny circle, it's like, "What can I do? And how can I still help people and be of service even during this time when everything changes?" I think as the faster you can get yourself out of that cycle, the more powerful you can be as a business person.

Erin Lowry:
I was going to say, the other thing that I liked seeing, and I didn't get a whole lot of the pandemic episodes, but there were moments of celebrating small wins and I felt on both a personal front and a professional front. And that is a take away I think all of us need to have coming out of the pandemic is just taking moments of celebrating, even if it's something little or that you are deciding as little, celebrate it, be excited about it. Not everything has to be like, "I just sold a $30 million house and got a bonkers commission." Sometimes it can just be the little things that make you feel really good too.

Bobbi Rebell:
I totally agree and I also liked seeing the adaptability of not just the stars of the show, but also their clients and the realness of it, because some of it was to balance out your happy celebration moments, just the genuine sadness of a life that had to change. There's a woman on there who put her heart and soul and a ton of money into decorating her apartment to be basically Palm Beach in New York. It's very, as they like to say "Specific style." I still can't decide if I love it or hate it, but it is very intentional, very overdone to some degree, every little square foot of this apartment is decorated because she intended to spend her life there and for reasons that they don't get into huge details on the show, she has to move to Florida permanently. I was like, "Can't you rent it for a few years?"

Bobbi Rebell:
No. It's very clear this house, this apartment is being sold and she just has such a hard time even getting out of the apartment so that they can show it because she's like, "I need more time with my home." And I think that that reflected this gradual acceptance that we all have had to had at some level of, "Wow, we just have to let some things go that just, we thought were going to happen and the pandemic did change everything and we have to adapt, but it's okay to also be sad and be human." And that story really got to me and it is very much a story as Paulette likes to say.

Paulette Perhach:
It was the morning of the life that she wasn't going to have was clearly what was happening. But flip side, Tyler, who was the broker she was working with in that scene, he has a life coach and you can tell he has a life coach in that scene because he made a comment about, "Our life as a pie and this is just a slice and you're going to Florida and that's just a slice and if you don't like it, you can always come back." And I thought that was such a good way. He clearly was just trying to talk his client down to get her out of the house so he could show this apartment, but he came again with an element of storytelling and also with empathy and compassion. And it wasn't just, "Hey, if you want me to get you the most money GTFO this apartment."

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't know that she cared to get every last dollar out of there. I think she just was coming to terms with this. And it's a very human show in that way, because you do see that even though there's big dollars. They flash the numbers on the screen constantly of what the apartment's asking, what the commission would be and all this stuff. There's still humans in the show. And there's a lot of stories to be told.

Erin Lowry:
I have a question For Paulette. I don't know if you've ever had this conversation with KJ, but how does she feel about just tiny slices of her income flashing on the screen national television?

Paulette Perhach:
We haven't discussed that. She's literally-

Bobbi Rebell:
That would be interesting to know.

Paulette Perhach:
... She's so busy. I would be surprised if she even saw that happened. And it's so funny. A lot of the, they talked about on the Andy Cohen show that a lot of them fast forward through the parts that other people are on. Oh my God. But yeah, they're busy.

Erin Lowry:
So do the housewives.

Bobbi Rebell:
They just watch themselves?

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so narcissistic. Oh my gosh.

Paulette Perhach:
I think the take away is that people who are making that much money are working so hard. And I know in my soul that I will never work as hard as Kirsten. And so it's like, "You want to be this successful. You want to be at this level. This is what it takes." And I look at it and I'm like, "I'm going to take a nap and then let's regroup." it's a fun thing to see. Yes, this is the payoff, but also pay attention to how hard they're working, because you only see 1% of it on the show and it's bananas.

Erin Lowry:
I love that takeaway. And I would couple it with just seeing tiny slices of what they're having to do to try to have some element of self care, or at the very least keep their appearances where they need them to be. How they get the working out in. How they get some of the cosmetology tweaks that are happening and drinking your junk juice, going to acupuncturist, whatever it is that you need to be doing and anytime any of them are in those "self care moments" and I don't know if it's for camera or what happens. They always take calls. That's the other thing they are always on call. There is no off switch on these folks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I love the human element. I love that they, as the show has grown and I think, I don't quite remember, so I could be a little bit off, but I don't think any of the original brokers when it started had families. And so for me as a longtime viewer and fan of the show, I really love seeing how we've traveled through the different seasons and hopefully for many more seasons with KJ and seeing how they've grown, how they've evolved, how they've grown their businesses and how they've grown their families. They come on a lot of these guys as single guys, and now they're all moving into family mode and it's really nice to see. And we've also had Ryan on the show, I should acknowledge as well. He was great. Maybe we'll have him on again in the future. I think that they are all very interesting characters, but also very human to us as they come across. I think Robert does a great job presenting the show and creating storylines.

Follow Paulette!

• Instagram - @paulettejperhach

• Facebook - @pauletteisawriter

• Twitter - @pauletteperhach

• LinkedIn - @pauletteperhach

• Website - http://www.pauletteperhach.com

Follow Erin!

• Instagram - @brokemillennialblog

• Facebook - @BrokeMillennial

• Twitter - @BrokeMillennial

• LinkedIn - @erin-lowry-49674222

• Website - https://brokemillennial.com/
  
  
  

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Paulette Perhach:
You want to be this successful? You want to be at this level? This is what it takes. And I look at it and I'm like, "I'm going to take a nap and then let's regroup."

Erin Lowry:
Anytime any of them are in those "self-care moments", they always take calls. They are always on call. There is no off switch on these folks.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to money tips for financial grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome friends to the fifth and final installment of our 2021 Financial Grown-up Summer Watch Party series. Having spent so much time at home in the past year and a half, one thing I've done with my time is, well, watch a ton of TV. And in that time, I have discovered there are a lot of streaming TV gems out there that have some really good money lessons. So I decided to bring on some friends, and discuss and have this summer watch party. So far, we have covered the Ashton Kutcher produced Going From Broke, which is on Crackle. Now I had not known of this network really before, but it is free, so definitely download Crackle or whatever, get to Crackle however you do, on your TV, and check out Going From Broke. It literally had me crying because the people that they have on this show were so good hearted, so well-meaning, and such interesting stories.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's just really well produced. We also talked about the new Netflix series, My Unorthodox Life, featuring entrepreneur Julia Haart, and her family and friends and coworkers. I think this family maybe the next Kardashians, but there was a lot of controversy about the show in the news because of how they presented their former life. There is a lot out there to this. Google it, just trust me. And then also obviously listened to our episode about it, and watch the show, but Google it for the controversy. In our third week of our little Summer Watch series, we got into it with some definite disagreements about whether the money lessons were good lessons, or bad lessons on the Netflix series, Marriage or Mortgage. My co-host, Andy Hill, held his own and we ended up agreeing to disagree. And then last week my husband came on the podcast to discuss and share his take on Jim Belushi's cannabis farm reality TV show on discovery, Growing Belushi, where his family actually had an intervention talking about concerns that the business was taking over his life and he didn't know what he was doing, which is kind of true. If you watch the show, you'll have to see.

Bobbi Rebell:
Sadly though, also we may have been witnessing some of the feelings that led to the recent announcement that Jim Belushi and his wife of 23 years, Jennifer, are splitting up. So we're very sad, and it's interesting. It makes the show all the more compelling to really look at what's going on behind the scenes as, yes, it's a cannabis farm and that's interesting in and of itself, but this is also someone starting a new family business and how it's impacting all of them. All of this to say it's been a great series, and if you have not listened so far, I highly recommend that you check out those episodes. This week, we have a really special show with a take on a show, a reality TV show that I can promise you, you will not hear anywhere else.

Bobbi Rebell:
We cannot possibly do a reality TV series without including a Bravo show, because who really does it better than Bravo, right? So we are going to be discussing Million Dollar Listing New York, MDLNY for the super fans. This is going to be next level because of my guests, and the exclusive information and insights that they bring to the table. Okay. First we have friend of the podcast, Ms. Paulette Perhach. Very famous writer in her own right, here to so many of us because of her F-U fund. But she also has a unique connection to the show that we will share in a moment. And we also have bestselling author, Erin Lowry, also a friend of the podcast, known for her trifecta of books in the Broke Millennial series and so much more, those introductions by the way, ladies do not do justice to all of your accomplishments, but in the interest of keeping the podcast a reasonable length, we will leave it there. Welcome.

Paulette Perhach:
Thanks for having us. I haven't heard trifecta yet. I'm going to start stealing that now.

Bobbi Rebell:
Trifecta. You did.

Paulette Perhach:
I know I did. I just had never thought... I keep saying three-part I'm like, "Ugh, trifecta so much better. Why didn't I wordsmith that?"

Bobbi Rebell:
That? Yeah. A triptych of financial wisdom.

Paulette Perhach:
Well, that's just too advanced. Get your $2 words out of here.

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:05:36] to the art world.

Erin Lowry:
We all come from the art world. Give you a triptych.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Well, we have to get into it because I also want to reveal the secret connection to the show that we all have. But let's briefly describe what the show is for the few people that have not seen it. It's been running for a lot of years, but we're going to focus mainly on the present year because it's really awesome. Million-dollar Listing has us following a glamorous group of New York city, real estate agents, as they jostled to get the big deals. And I always find the title funny guys, because I don't think there's ever been a deal where it was close to even just a million. These are mega deals. This season, thankfully, finally, we had a woman join the cast, which besides being obviously long overdue is also where you come in, Paulette.

Paulette Perhach:
Yes. I work with KJ bringing her power and her incredible spirit into the written word for her. I work as her writer, so it's like I get the KJ live show and she's a powerhouse. She's had an incredible effect on me as a businesswoman, just over the last year, working with her.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right and KJ, I should say is short for Kirsten-Jordan who's wonderful and she has been rising through the ranks of brokers. I don't know how she was not well known before this show because she is phenomenal. And through you Paulette, Erin and I have met her right Erin?

Erin Lowry:
Sure have. It was my first real life Bravo celebrity meeting and can I just say, I'm going to disclaimer this right now. I'm a massive Bravo fan. I watch every version of the real Housewives, but I had never watched a million dollar listings before about 24 hours before recording with this podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get into the show. First of all, each of you ladies general take on the show.

Paulette Perhach:
So I obviously have been watching it. I have it on my calendar when it comes out. I see how hard KJ works behind the scenes and then to see how it's all glammed up and like, "Oh, I'm throwing a party to sellers." And it looks so easy. So it's really fun to see behind the scenes how hard she's working. I find it inspiring. You do have to control your FOMO at like, "I will never have a pool in my New York City apartment." But in the same way that part of my business plan came from watching Shark Tank, I think we could all learn about sales from watching Million Dollar Listing and just get some fabulous decorating ideas that we can try to recreate an Ikea.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
The negotiating and sales tips and how to create a scarcity environment when one doesn't necessarily exist are really impressive takeaways from the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
On almost every episode in almost every deal the brokers come in and I'm shocked that people sometimes allow themselves to be filmed this way, knowing they're going to be basically talked about behind their back and yet on national TV about their bad taste because they come in and they basically swoop in, get rid of their stuff and stage it, which is insulting to the people that own it. To me, that's a mini-lesson about the illusion and going to something I know Paulette is very good at, which is storytelling because they basically take out the owner's story and put in the story of what they think will be worth the most money.

Paulette Perhach:
Or neutral. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:
[crosstalk 00:08:56]. They neutralize it.

Paulette Perhach:
So you can envision your own story without it being... That 11 Madison, I think it was, "mansion", that was a 3000 square feet inside 3000 square feet outside. That was so gaudy. It had the gold couch. I was deeply stressed watching this episode and yeah, it made sense, where it was like, "It's better to have it empty than to have this gold couch in here."

Bobbi Rebell:
The that I thought about that episode was when Tyler rented the band, I was like, "Couldn't you have just rented couches for a night instead of a band?"

Paulette Perhach:
Well, that's what Ryan Serhand said. He's like "There's chairs for the musicians, but not chairs for the brokers who are here to help you sell your place. What are young doing?"

Bobbi Rebell:
It also to the point of FOMO, I think that it also helps you see behind the curtain in some ways, even though, I'm interested to see what Paulette says about what really goes on behind the scenes more, but it helps you see that so much of what we buy is a marketing illusion. That when they stage an apartment and we see them remake it in relative to the price inexpensive way, although I'm mortified at what they spend to stage. It can be crazy money to stage these things. They're presenting it so it can sell, but there's nothing under there. Half the time the bed doesn't even have a real mattress. It's not even an actual bed and you can't actually use it. It's all for show.

Erin Lowry:
In context for people about crazy amount of money. We're talking between 70 to $150,000 to stage a lot of these apartments.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is an inconceivable film. If a broker came to me and said that would just walk away.

Erin Lowry:
It's interesting too, on the point of what they have to do to the apartment. And I'm really curious, Paulette for you to speak to what they as sellers have to be doing. The clothing that they have to wear, the hairstyles, they have to have the amount of upkeep of their own appearance. You see on the first episode of the season, Tyler, who I assume is a fairly new addition, maybe it was their last season season.

Bobbi Rebell:
Last season.

Erin Lowry:
He talks about the clothing that he's having to buy the amount of money he's having to put into presentation so that his vibe is matching his desired clientele's vibe. And that's a huge upfront cost. Sure, we're seeing that they're getting these commissions of like 250, half a million dollars, but also how much are they having to sink into the business as a whole? And that includes themselves.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah. So Frederick says to spend 10% of your commissions on your wardrobe, which is a ton. That's crazy.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're making shocked expressions by the way.

Paulette Perhach:
Shocked emoji faces. And actually Kirsten and I are working on a blog post about her deciding like what is spending and what's investing and it is so funny because when you are on the other side of the illusion, this is something that I struggle with personally, as a writer and as an artist and someone who hopes to deal in truth, but also wants to own a house one day. You know that by creating you can make more money and yet how much of your life do you want to spend in illusion and how much... I know for example, if I buy a bunch of fancy clothes and I pretend like my life is all fine and dandy on Instagram and just take pretty pictures all over the place, then I'll get more followers, I'll make more money, but how far do you want to go from that in a personal way?

Paulette Perhach:
So anyway, that's my artist's side of the thing. But yeah, I know there's a lot of pressure to match that vibe and the fashion vibe of your clients, which is a lot. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of planning and it's a consideration as an investment and I think more and more as my own business owner, I do realize that the face that I present to the world, I want it to be like the best expression of me and the way that I think about it as a business owner is fashion and preparing myself in a way that says, "Hey, I'm in here. This is me. And I'm in here." I want to like dress to celebrate the day. Someone said, "Dressing well as good manners."` And I really liked that phrasing. So there's so many levels to take it. And yeah, I think that when you were selling to people at the highest level of income, there is pressure to look like them and to look like them cost a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Erin.

Erin Lowry:
Oh, I agree. I also think it's interesting what of that is a tax deduction and what isn't, when you come to thinking about investing in yourself? I remember a couple of years ago, and if you couldn't tell from my feelings about designing my home, I feel the same way about clothing. I am bad at that. That is just a pain point I know I have. I was never taught how to dress cute fashion is not my thing.

Erin Lowry:
If I could wear athleisure all the time and get away with it socially, I definitely would. But I also realized that's a pain point you can outsource. So a couple of years ago, I hired a stylist to work with to try to learn how to dress to my body.

Erin Lowry:
What kind of brands looked good on me? How to put certain pieces together, working with what I already had in my closet. And what was interesting is because it's for a lot of professional engagements and it was professional clothing, the stylist fee could be a deduction, but the clothing itself could not. So it's always interesting, depending on your job, what you could write off and what you can't. I know people who model, for instance, I think there's certain hair, nail, stuff, type upkeep that they could possibly get a write off on. So I'm curious with luxury real estate, what are the rules for them? What is reasonable right off?

Paulette Perhach:
[crosstalk 00:14:21] have to wear makeup and heels and nice clothes to work, to make more money, that is a cost of doing business and I want to put it on my taxes. I also don't want to be audited.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah, that's a big part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
This last year in 2020, every woman should be able to put makeup on their tax deduction if we're all doing Zoom meetings all the time.

Erin Lowry:
Yes.

Paulette Perhach:
Other people did used to see you in person anyway, I don't know. I think it would be nice. I don't know. That's a whole topic. That's a rabbit hole.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a whole rabbit hole.

Paulette Perhach:
Get out while you can.

Bobbi Rebell:
What else can you share with us that you've learned from working with KJ about the show and maybe the lessons that she's learned? By the way, she's been on the podcast and she should have been there all along and there should be the fact that there's one woman and we have to make a big deal out of it is stupid. There just should be many women and whatever.

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah because 64% of realtors are women.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly. But the fact is it is what it is. For now she came into this group of men, she more than held her own. So can we just talk about that dynamic a little bit and the lessons that maybe women can learn when they are suddenly as unjust as it is brought into a group of men?

Paulette Perhach:
Gosh, I think that there's... Kirsten's a powerhouse, but also just a very kind person and does it in this way where she stands in her power in such an inspiring way to me, and knows her value and is honest with people and direct, but doesn't have to come in throwing blows. It's not about anyone else it's about her and how she brings value to the situation.

Paulette Perhach:
It's like a race against herself and it's all an internal thing. It's not me versus the world, is that the sense that I get with her. And just overall watching the show as someone who is a writer who writes artistically and writes for my business, just seeing how much value storytelling has in sales. It's incredible. Every sale is a story. And for me, with writers who I have such a hard time getting my coaching clients to ask for money. Erin and Bobby, you guys have been such a part of my personal journey, learning to ask for money and learning to ask for what I'm worth. And it's just very cool to see that in this ecosystem where a lot of money is being thrown around that writers are an a central part of it.

Paulette Perhach:
And KJ is awesome because she helps moms see that if they want to have it all, they can't do it all and they need to learn to delegate and to outsource and if they want to be working moms, running their own empire. And so she's open about having a writer. She's not out there pretending, "Oh yes, I do. I have eight arms and I'm irony with my foot as I type out my marketing emails," and things like that. She is so transparent in a way that I think is not only an inspiration, but also a model to follow for other realtors.

Erin Lowry:
I also think an interesting part of her narrative is who you marry has a really big impact on your career. Especially for women, particularly those of us in heterosexual relationship dynamics, where it still tends to people defer to men more often than not. She married somebody who's also in the business, but does a different side of the business so that they can collaborate and be collaborators and push each other, but also work together.

Erin Lowry:
And I thought it was really to hear a little insight to boundary setting between the two of them. In the early episode, they talk about one of the listings that he had, that she said "I was too far along in my pregnancy to take it on when it went to market." And that's just a little boundary that you heard gets set with these two people who clearly work together a lot, but don't work for the same company, do different sides in the real estate industry. But on the flip side, she goes to Tyler's open house at the "mansion" location and her husband's there. Her husband's a developer. He can schmooze with the developer that owned the place. They can go up and see the penthouses that aren't listed. It's a very interesting ecosystem that they can create for themselves too, to really both be powerful in their own right, but also be powerful together.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a really good point. She also puts her kids in the show. She doesn't hide that she is a working mom. Some of the other people on the show have kids as well and we see them with the moms, primarily taking care of the kids, which is interesting. We got to see a lot more of the cast. I know Erin, you didn't watch other seasons of it, but we will see more of their home life because of the pandemic. And so the final money lesson strategy that I wanted to touch on was adapting to the unexpected because the show was filming while this all happened. They started filming before the pandemic and then on from there. And I met KJ through Paulette during the pandemic and I was like, "Wait, what? You're you're filming now? How is that working? You can't even show real estate." So I was truly impressed as I've been seeing the episodes of how they adapted their businesses in literally an impossible environment. They were not allowed. There were robots there. It was awesome and ridiculous at the same time. What do you guys think?

Erin Lowry:
I jumped ahead to a pandemic episode because first it was very jarring and the opening episodes that no one had masks on. I was like, "What? Who's walking around New York city without a mask what's going on here?" And they make it clear that we're backdating before the pandemic now the pandemic hit. So the two things that I found really intriguing: one, is his name Steve?Stephen? The guy who had the luscious hair that he shaved off

Paulette Perhach:
He's a former mode, by the way.

Erin Lowry:
It was said multiple times. I got that and I watched three episodes. So he went out and diversified immediately by getting his license in other states. Because as soon as stuff started fleeing Manhattan going upstate and all that property was getting hot and heavy. He got his license, I think in Massachusetts and Connecticut, in addition to having it in New York so that he could diversify out, which I thought was really interesting. And then also Ryan Serhand deciding to double down on starting his own company and making the comment about, "When others are fleeing, that's when you really need to put the pedal to the metal." As someone who did take some time off in the pandemic, because I was exhausted, it was a very interesting other side argument.

Bobbi Rebell:
You did take time off, but you also had your third seller come out. Let's just everybody of the Broke Millennials series. Okay. Those were great standup moments. Paulette, what were your standout moments?

Paulette Perhach:
I think it reminded me as a business person to just delve down into what is your core value? And accepting whatever comes our way, even though 2020 seemed like the most unacceptable year in the history of the world as we all know it. For example, I was inspired by it's Sia's choreographer did an online dance class. That was the first time that I think I laughed during the pandemic. Then I started an online writing group that meets every morning. And so just seeing how they didn't let themselves spin out all the brokers on the show and there was just a lot of positive self-talk that you could see because it's so tempting to wallow and I find myself there too.

Paulette Perhach:
But it's so much about resilience and grit is catching yourself in those low moments and being like, "Okay, I accept that this is really hard and I'm going to feel bad for myself for the next 30 seconds." And then, "All right, come on. What can we do? What do we have control of?" It felt like our locus of control shrank down to the size of a pea during 2020, but within that tiny, tiny circle, it's like, "What can I do? And how can I still help people and be of service even during this time when everything changes?" I think as the faster you can get yourself out of that cycle, the more powerful you can be as a business person.

Erin Lowry:
I was going to say, the other thing that I liked seeing, and I didn't get a whole lot of the pandemic episodes, but there were moments of celebrating small wins and I felt on both a personal front and a professional front. And that is a take away I think all of us need to have coming out of the pandemic is just taking moments of celebrating, even if it's something little or that you are deciding as little, celebrate it, be excited about it. Not everything has to be like, "I just sold a $30 million house and got a bonkers commission." Sometimes it can just be the little things that make you feel really good too.

Bobbi Rebell:
I totally agree and I also liked seeing the adaptability of not just the stars of the show, but also their clients and the realness of it, because some of it was to balance out your happy celebration moments, just the genuine sadness of a life that had to change. There's a woman on there who put her heart and soul and a ton of money into decorating her apartment to be basically Palm Beach in New York. It's very, as they like to say "Specific style." I still can't decide if I love it or hate it, but it is very intentional, very overdone to some degree, every little square foot of this apartment is decorated because she intended to spend her life there and for reasons that they don't get into huge details on the show, she has to move to Florida permanently. I was like, "Can't you rent it for a few years?"

Bobbi Rebell:
No. It's very clear this house, this apartment is being sold and she just has such a hard time even getting out of the apartment so that they can show it because she's like, "I need more time with my home." And I think that that reflected this gradual acceptance that we all have had to had at some level of, "Wow, we just have to let some things go that just, we thought were going to happen and the pandemic did change everything and we have to adapt, but it's okay to also be sad and be human." And that story really got to me and it is very much a story as Paulette likes to say.

Paulette Perhach:
It was the morning of the life that she wasn't going to have was clearly what was happening. But flip side, Tyler, who was the broker she was working with in that scene, he has a life coach and you can tell he has a life coach in that scene because he made a comment about, "Our life as a pie and this is just a slice and you're going to Florida and that's just a slice and if you don't like it, you can always come back." And I thought that was such a good way. He clearly was just trying to talk his client down to get her out of the house so he could show this apartment, but he came again with an element of storytelling and also with empathy and compassion. And it wasn't just, "Hey, if you want me to get you the most money GTFO this apartment."

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't know that she cared to get every last dollar out of there. I think she just was coming to terms with this. And it's a very human show in that way, because you do see that even though there's big dollars. They flash the numbers on the screen constantly of what the apartment's asking, what the commission would be and all this stuff. There's still humans in the show. And there's a lot of stories to be told.

Erin Lowry:
I have a question For Paulette. I don't know if you've ever had this conversation with KJ, but how does she feel about just tiny slices of her income flashing on the screen national television?

Paulette Perhach:
We haven't discussed that. She's literally-

Bobbi Rebell:
That would be interesting to know.

Paulette Perhach:
... She's so busy. I would be surprised if she even saw that happened. And it's so funny. A lot of the, they talked about on the Andy Cohen show that a lot of them fast forward through the parts that other people are on. Oh my God. But yeah, they're busy.

Erin Lowry:
So do the housewives.

Bobbi Rebell:
They just watch themselves?

Paulette Perhach:
Yeah.

Erin Lowry:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so narcissistic. Oh my gosh.

Paulette Perhach:
I think the take away is that people who are making that much money are working so hard. And I know in my soul that I will never work as hard as Kirsten. And so it's like, "You want to be this successful. You want to be at this level. This is what it takes." And I look at it and I'm like, "I'm going to take a nap and then let's regroup." it's a fun thing to see. Yes, this is the payoff, but also pay attention to how hard they're working, because you only see 1% of it on the show and it's bananas.

Erin Lowry:
I love that takeaway. And I would couple it with just seeing tiny slices of what they're having to do to try to have some element of self care, or at the very least keep their appearances where they need them to be. How they get the working out in. How they get some of the cosmetology tweaks that are happening and drinking your junk juice, going to acupuncturist, whatever it is that you need to be doing and anytime any of them are in those "self care moments" and I don't know if it's for camera or what happens. They always take calls. That's the other thing they are always on call. There is no off switch on these folks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I love the human element. I love that they, as the show has grown and I think, I don't quite remember, so I could be a little bit off, but I don't think any of the original brokers when it started had families. And so for me as a longtime viewer and fan of the show, I really love seeing how we've traveled through the different seasons and hopefully for many more seasons with KJ and seeing how they've grown, how they've evolved, how they've grown their businesses and how they've grown their families. They come on a lot of these guys as single guys, and now they're all moving into family mode and it's really nice to see. And we've also had Ryan on the show, I should acknowledge as well. He was great. Maybe we'll have him on again in the future. I think that they are all very interesting characters, but also very human to us as they come across. I think Robert does a great job presenting the show and creating storylines.

Erin Lowry:
The Bravo editors are unmatched, in my opinion, in terms of editing reality content. To a dash, Netflix is starting to do some really solid reality content, but Bravo really created the mold that everyone is just trying to match at this point.

Bobbi Rebell:
Agreed. All right. Thank you so much, Paulette, where can people catch up with you?

Paulette Perhach:
You can follow me on Twitter at @pauletperhach And I also blog about storytelling and writing and business at welcometothewriterslife.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wonderful. And you also, by the way, have a growing business supporting writers.

Paulette Perhach:
Yes. So I'm a writing coach and working on creating a program called the PMSA, the profitable MFA, where I help writers lead a profitable and satisfying writer's life.

Bobbi Rebell:
All good stuff, Erin, my friend, what are you up to these days? And where can people be in touch with you?

Erin Lowry:
You can find me most actively on Instagram @brokemillennialblog on Twitter @brokemillennial. The website is brokemillennial.com. The books, all three of them are available. Wherever books are sold and also hopefully your local library.

Bobbi Rebell:
Definitely your local library. We're all an advocate for borrowing books and supporting your library. And by the way, that doesn't mean you can't tell your library to buy the books of your favorite author and in that way financially support your favorite author. That was my PSA. All right. Thanks everyone for listening. Do not forget if you enjoy the show too. Please tell your friends and share on social and tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1.

Bobbi Rebell:
For show notes, a full transcript of this show add more, go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and just look for the podcast dropdown menu. Thank you for listening everyone. And thank you, Erin Lowry, Paulette Perhach for helping us all be Financial Grown Up.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Well, you can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my money tips for grown-ups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Our summer watch party continues with the controversial new Netflix reality tv series My Unorthodox Life. Bobbi and Jessica Goodman,  best-selling author of  “They Wish They Were Us” and "They’ll Never Catch Us” explain why it’s getting serious backlash, and why they can’t stop watching it anyway.

A Little About The Show

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, so the premise is that there's this woman named Julia Haart and she's in her forties and she's the CEO of Elite World Group, which is a modeling conglomerate. She's launching a fashion line. She's this very glamorous, seemingly free kind of woman. She's married to an Italian man who used to be her... She used to work with at La Perla. She has four kids, kind of teenagers and young adults. And the show kind of frames this as, this is this crazy kind of New York city family, but twist... She used to be Orthodox Jewish and live in a community in upstate New York called Monsey, which is known for being very insular and having lots of different groups and communities and sects of Orthodox Judaism living there.

Jessica Goodman:
I have some thoughts on the problematic framing of this narrative. That the fact that they kind of frame it as a twist is a little bit othering in a lot of ways, but her whole thing is that she's not a part of this community anymore. And her kids are involved with the community to varying degrees. Her youngest son is... I think he's either in late middle school or early high school, and he still lives up there with his father and is very much a part of the community. And her other kids have varying levels of faith in Judaism.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm kind of amazed that they all agreed to so enthusiastically be part of this show, but they really... I almost feel like they're prepped for it and they're ready and roaring to go, which seems a little jarring. I don't know. And the clothing. I mean, I don't even know where to begin with the styling and the wardrobe on this. I mean, it's over the top. I guess that's part of why I had this Kardashian feeling and I have not been a loyal viewer of the Kardashians. I've kind of watched a few episodes over the years so I'm not really necessarily qualified to say that. But it's pretty flashy.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, totally. And I feel like that's definitely on purpose because she's framing herself as a fashion mogul and she came into the fashion world having no experience in it and knowing nothing about it and yeah. The fashion and the glam and all of that really is such a part of the show. And also obviously I've been doing deep dive stalking of everybody who's on the show and her oldest daughter Batsheva, who's 27 or something. She's a full fledged fashion influencer. Has a million followers on TikToK. She was doing that before the show launched. So clearly, this is a family where fashion is a big part of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the show is a very deliberate and polished show. There's nothing accidental in this show. It is structured. So give me your take. I mean, I find this fascinating. I didn't binge all of it yet only because I've been blocked by other true obligations, but I'll probably finish the rest right after we're done taping this because it's so fascinating. What's your general takeaway from this? Just to begin with.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, totally. I mean, you told me we were going to talk about this show and I had heard about it a little bit and I was like, oh, I'll watch an episode and see what happens. Fast forward four hours, I'd watched basically the whole thing. I couldn't take my eyes away from it. I think it's extremely compelling television. But yeah, the whole thing is super contrived. It's very clearly... They decide what the storylines are going to be. There's nothing real about it. It's very much like The Hills in that way. Fake reality. And Julia is an executive producer on the show, just like the Kardashians are executive producers on their show. So you're getting the lifestyle and the perspective that she wants you to see and I think you have to really take that into consideration when you're viewing the show.

Jessica Goodman:
I grew up and I'm still a reformed Jewish person and I think what's most interesting to me is seeing the different levels of Judaism portrayed on the show. One of the daughters is basically... I don't know if she considers herself secular, but she is 20 years old and she eats treyf, like oysters and all those kind of stuff. And her older sister is still Orthodox and has a very contrived storyline with her husband about whether or not she's going to be wearing pants, when she's also wearing an off the shoulder shirt. The whole thing is kind of fake, but I'm interested in seeing these conversations play out within the family and how they accept one another's different parts of religion.

Jessica Goodman:
I think there are some really problematic moments in the show too. There's been a real big backlash against her from women in the Orthodox community who say that she portrays them... That Julia says that Orthodox women don't have free will. And a lot of Orthodox women are coming out and saying that's not true. We do have free will and this is how, and this is why. I'm not part of that community so I can't really speculate or comment on that. It's really interesting to watch it play out and to see what she... How she has reinvented herself. No matter what you think of her or the show, this woman reinvented herself.

Jessica Goodman:
And some of her history, there seemed to be some gaps in it. I would really love a real deep dive fact check on what she's been up to since she left the community. But again, like I said, I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to. Okay. So this is my big word vomit about the show, but that's what I think.

Money Tips and Lessons Learned

Bobbi Rebell:
That's all very valid. What drew me to the show, coming from my sort of perspective, was the money thing. And one of the things that I think is interesting is there is a missing link in how she sort of went... Because it hasn't been even a decade, I think, right? How did she go from having nothing? And they do make a point in the show that they don't... That the women certainly, and also the men to a large degree, are not educated in any formal way. We do have a storyline, for example-- this is a little bit of a spoiler-- that Batsheva's husband Ben, only has a high school education and therefore his career prospects are limited because that's all they do. They study Torah and they get a high school education and I presume the women have even less of an education.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing I really admired, and again we don't get the full picture, is that she did find a way. She understood that she needed money to leave the community, which is often true in... We can only know her perspective. She felt oppressed. She felt she had no control over her life. We don't know the rest of the community but given from her perspective, that's how she felt. She knew money was going to be her answer to freedom and that was one of the things that attracted to me to the show. The ability to be able to support yourself. And she talks about that a lot in her family. That she wants her family to be able to be able to support each of themselves, even though it's very clear that right now, she's really the one supporting this entire huge operation. There's a lot of designer brands out there and I thought that was a very mixed message.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, I did kind of come to the conclusion and I'm making this up. I don't know if it's true. My gut feeling is these brands give her the clothing for free, because every single person in her family and in the show is decked out at all times and usually with their labels showing. And I'm wondering if that's because the clothing is given to her? Maybe coming from the magazine world, you have some insight into that, because I do feel like it was a mixed message. You had a lot of women empowerment messages, but then it was almost like they were so weighed down in consumerism. They go to Paris and all they're talking about is shopping, shopping, shopping and I was a little bit uncomfortable with that message.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I mean, I wish I had more insight into how she got the clothes for my magazine world, but I have no idea. I mean, there are always sponsorships and partnerships and I wouldn't be surprised if she negotiated some free clothes or rentals or something like that. But yeah, I mean the consumerism and the capitalism on display in the show is over the top, but I think that's pretty true of any glam fashion-y reality show. That's a part of the reason why people watch. I'm a huge Real Housewives fan and obviously I want to watch and see what Kyle Richards is wearing because it's always really fun. Okay, one thing that you said really struck me that I can't stop thinking about is there does seem to be a gap in how she got to where she is now. So-

Bobbi Rebell:
Had you heard of her before this?

Jessica Goodman:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Exactly! No.

Jessica Goodman:
I've been googling around and trying to find some information on her and basically her "origin story" seems to be that while she was living in what she felt to be an oppressed community, she knew she wanted to get out and she started selling life insurance to the people in her community without her husband knowing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How does that really happen? First of all.

Jessica Goodman:
I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, I love it. I support her. I think that's amazing. That's wonderful and innovative and brave, but anyway, go on.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. So that's how she said she got her nest egg to leave the community. Once she left the community, she says that she started a high heel company, which sounds great. Very cool. She was always into fashion and this is how she did it. How she wanted to become a business woman in that world. And I read an interview with her that was like, "How did you get financing?" And she said that she just kind of met people. She met someone in a doctor's office. She met someone on a flight to Hong Kong and they became her investors... And I just would love a little bit more information about how. Where Julia Haart came from and how was she was able to do this. It's obviously an incredible story and I just want more information about it.

Jessica Goodman:
Because then, once she had the shoe line, she sold it to La Perla and became the creative director there. She designed the thong outfit that Kendall Jenner wore to the Met Gala. That's a huge deal! She's very clearly good and successful. I just need some more information and I feel like... I just feel like she's not giving us the whole story on this show. Which is obvious because she's the one who produced it, like I said. But yeah, I mean this message of being able to start a business from nothing is incredibly powerful and important. I feel like with all of these... We hear about this kind of thing. This is the pull at your heartstrings story of I had nothing, now I own the world. I think what's really important about these stories when you're sharing them with young women is giving all the facts and making them really transparent so people can find ways to actually emulate that and do that for themselves. If you're watching this show looking for tips on how to start your own business, I don't think you're going to feel very equipped to do so after watching it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any favorite quotes from the show?

Jessica Goodman:
Okay, yes. I spoke about her daughter. Her second daughter, Miriam who... She's the one who goes to Stanford and she's building her own apps and she comes out as bisexual in the show and she's very cool and very free. And her mom says she's the reason for why they decided to leave the community really and she says, "People say think outside the box, but I don't even think the box exists." I just feel like she's such a cool mouthpiece for the younger generation on this show and that's just like a great little quote here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think she's awesome. So one of my favorite quotes was Julia. Julia Haart, our protagonist here saying, "I want you to never rely on anyone ever, not even me." And I didn't write down who she said that to, but I think that's really important as a-

Jessica Goodman:
Batsheva. She said it to Batsheva.

Bobbi Rebell:
To Batsheva. See, you are like a super fan of this show. Because, she does have... They're all her employees. Her children all do work for her and she's saying it's important that you establish yourself and that you are earning your money, whether you work for me or someone else and not be dependent on me as a parent. And that obviously is the sweet spot for me, writing my book about how to help our children be independent of us in a loving way and so that really hit home with me. Okay. Last little question about the show and then we're going to wrap up. Who's your favorite character and why?

Jessica Goodman:
I have two favorite character, "characters". Batsheva, just because I think she's the one who's challenging her family the most and who is challenging her mom and I found myself agreeing with her in a lot of situations. Like when Julia invites a woman from her Orthodox community to come to the city for a day of make-over and wisdom, Batsheva was right on the money when she was like, "Maybe this isn't a good idea." And the whole thing felt really exploitative to me and I feel like it did to Batsheva as well. And also Robert! Julia's best friend/employees/person who basically it seems to helm the ship at Elite. I loved him and I'm glad that they haven't really reduced him to just fun, gay sidekick character. They're giving him real storylines as well and I just think he's just a great, fun character on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I also had a tie and I agree with you. Robert was one of my favorites and even though he does seem to come out of reality TV central casting, he's also so good. I mean, he's amazing. I would be curious if he was in this role before the show, because he's just that good. He's so perfect that it's like, whoa. But look, they do say they've been working together forever and he does fit her personality as someone that would be her right-hand man, literally. So I mean-

Jessica Goodman:
Well, I did a little LinkedIn stalking and it seems like he worked with her before.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, good. And the other person that really grew on me and he seems like a minor character, it's Batsheva's husband, Ben. I just want to hug this man through the TV because he married into a certain idea of what his life was going to be. He's not her biological child that was sort of dragged out, which all of them were... Sort of voluntarily because she seems to be on good relations with her ex-husband which is also interesting. But okay. But he is just, he married this woman and then suddenly he's thrust into this whole different life and he is not set up for it. The kid is not ready for this. The first episode, they just say he's in real estate and then it comes out later the only house, the only apartment he's sold is theirs.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it was kind of not a nice dig for Julia to make. I thought that was wrong, because she did this to him. He is... I don't want to say he's a victim because he's not portrayed as a victim in any way and he seems like a fantastic person and he's really trying so hard to adjust to things that have happened to him. He's trying to find his way and be a good husband. He was told that he should have kids the earliest possible and now he's got a wife that wants to wear pants and not have a baby till she's 30. So he's really rolling with the punches and I just think he's amazing. So yay, Ben.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I could do a spin off of the two of them for sure.

Bobbi Rebell:
There might be a spinoff. I would not be surprised. Right?

Jessica Goodman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Final thoughts on the show.

Jessica Goodman:
So I still have a couple of episodes left and I'm really excited to keep going and just kind of finish it up. But I would also... If you're interested in the show and you're listening to this, I would recommend there's a great piece on Glamor. Glamour.com, about the kind of contradictions within the show and the backlash to it and explaining a lot of that stuff and I recommend that piece because it helped me think about it in a more critical way. But yeah, I... God, you know what? I'm probably going to read this woman's book too. So, yeah. I'm just interested. I'm just interested.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think it's so highly watchable and I also... For all the flaws that we talked about, I would say overall it's still a winner. I mean at a five stars, I'd still give it four and three quarter stars because while there are these inconsistencies, we don't know what was edited out. We don't know. I thought about if there's even legal things that happen behind the scenes in terms of what she can and cannot say, and it is glossy. It is definitely highly produced. But then again, it works for the show and I totally enjoyed it and I wish this whole group of people all the best success because they are risk-takers even by doing this show, even though they had control over it. And the book, I kind of hope it's not too much of a tell all. I hope that she doesn't reveal too much of her life in the name of building her persona because some things it's okay to keep private, Julia Haart. Even though we're big fans.

Jessica Goodman:
And I just want to shout out Batsheva's TikTok because I'm not even really a big fashion TikTok person and I found myself wasting a lot of time going through her very cute fashion TikToks with Ben. So highly recommend. They do-

Bobbi Rebell:
I haven't looked at it yet but I'm afraid to because it'll just... I'll never write my book.

Jessica Goodman:
No. It's a great procrastination tool.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We're going to check it out as soon as my deadline passes in a month or so. Okay. Let's just talk quickly about They'll Never Catch Us.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, yeah. So this is my new book, They'll never catch us. It is out July 27th. The date this episode drops, which is so exciting. And it is a young adult thriller about two sisters who are hyper competitive on a cross-country team in a small town in the Catskills, that is very dark and ominous and has a history of cold cases where young female runners go missing and they've never found the killer. And so the sister, the Steckler sisters, they are competing for the number one spot on their cross country team because their family can only afford to send one of them to college and the other one needs to get a scholarship. Their whole lives are wrapped up in cross country and everything changes when a new girl comes to town threatens to be better than both of them and take away the scholarship that one of them might get.

Jessica Goodman:
And when the new girl disappears, everyone starts to think that the Steckler sisters has something to do with her disappearance and they become the main suspects in the case. So it's a fun murder mystery that is about strength and desire and the power of teenage girls, which is what I love to write about. That's my sweet spot. And I think all my books also have a lot of themes about class distinctions, specifically within small communities and how power and money can kind of affect the way that young people think about the world and what their priorities are. So I'm excited. I'm excited for it to come out.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's coming out today. We can't wait to read it.

Follow Jessica!

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• Jessica’s website - https://www.goodmanjessica.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates. If you can't decide, use code GROWNUP for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast and you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Jessica Goodman:
I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Welcome my friends, to a new episode of our 2021 Financial Grownups Summer Watch Party series. During COVID, well I probably should have read more, but I actually did a lot of streaming, show watching and I became a little bit obsessed with the fact that there are a lot of shows out there that talk about money. Many of them totally undiscovered, and they have pretty good money lessons. So we're going to have a summer watch party highlighting some of my personal favorites and some new buzzworthy shows and of course the money tips that we learned from them. I am so excited to have my friend Jessica Goodman here with me for this episode. She is the author of two... Not one, but two best-selling books. They Wish They Were Us and the newly released... Actually it's coming out the day this episode drops, I believe. They'll Never Catch Us. Her books? So successful that she is no longer employed by Cosmos magazine as an editor where she spent many, many years. Hi Jessica.

Jessica Goodman:
Hi. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
And by the way, so I also left out... Give us an update on the books because in addition to They'll Never Catch Us, which I'm holding up here even though no one can see it. But I'll hold it up just so you get the feeling of me holding it up. Your first book had all kinds of Hollywood stuff happening. Give us an update on that.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, absolutely. So my first book, They Wish They Were Us is a prep school murder mystery set in an exclusive school in Long Island. And yeah, it was optioned for TV, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey and it's with HBO Max in development right now. So we're hoping it gets made and seeing what's up, but it's been really fun to kind of see that process move along.

Bobbi Rebell:
So glam. Perfect for the show we're going to be talking about. We're going to get to They'll Never Catch Us after we talk about this week's must watch show. This is a new one. So this technically was not watched while I was under quarantine, but it was coming out and getting so much buzz that I decided to throw it in the mix. It is called My Unorthodox Life. I feel like this is almost the new Kardashian show. In that you've got all of these characters, they're this big family and they're sort of... I don't know if this is Kardashian-like or not, but they're super glam and they're sort of a fish out of water story. I don't know. Would you characterize it like that? What do you see? Tell us more about the premise.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, so the premise is that there's this woman named Julia Haart and she's in her forties and she's the CEO of Elite World Group, which is a modeling conglomerate. She's launching a fashion line. She's this very glamorous, seemingly free kind of woman. She's married to an Italian man who used to be her... She used to work with at La Perla. She has four kids, kind of teenagers and young adults. And the show kind of frames this as, this is this crazy kind of New York city family, but twist... She used to be Orthodox Jewish and live in a community in upstate New York called Monsey, which is known for being very insular and having lots of different groups and communities and sects of Orthodox Judaism living there.

Jessica Goodman:
I have some thoughts on the problematic framing of this narrative. That the fact that they kind of frame it as a twist is a little bit othering in a lot of ways, but her whole thing is that she's not a part of this community anymore. And her kids are involved with the community to varying degrees. Her youngest son is... I think he's either in late middle school or early high school, and he still lives up there with his father and is very much a part of the community. And her other kids have varying levels of faith in Judaism.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm kind of amazed that they all agreed to so enthusiastically be part of this show, but they really... I almost feel like they're prepped for it and they're ready and roaring to go, which seems a little jarring. I don't know. And the clothing. I mean, I don't even know where to begin with the styling and the wardrobe on this. I mean, it's over the top. I guess that's part of why I had this Kardashian feeling and I have not been a loyal viewer of the Kardashians. I've kind of watched a few episodes over the years so I'm not really necessarily qualified to say that. But it's pretty flashy.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, totally. And I feel like that's definitely on purpose because she's framing herself as a fashion mogul and she came into the fashion world having no experience in it and knowing nothing about it and yeah. The fashion and the glam and all of that really is such a part of the show. And also obviously I've been doing deep dive stalking of everybody who's on the show and her oldest daughter Batsheva, who's 27 or something. She's a full fledged fashion influencer. Has a million followers on TikToK. She was doing that before the show launched. So clearly, this is a family where fashion is a big part of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the show is a very deliberate and polished show. There's nothing accidental in this show. It is structured. So give me your take. I mean, I find this fascinating. I didn't binge all of it yet only because I've been blocked by other true obligations, but I'll probably finish the rest right after we're done taping this because it's so fascinating. What's your general takeaway from this? Just to begin with.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah, totally. I mean, you told me we were going to talk about this show and I had heard about it a little bit and I was like, oh, I'll watch an episode and see what happens. Fast forward four hours, I'd watched basically the whole thing. I couldn't take my eyes away from it. I think it's extremely compelling television. But yeah, the whole thing is super contrived. It's very clearly... They decide what the storylines are going to be. There's nothing real about it. It's very much like The Hills in that way. Fake reality. And Julia is an executive producer on the show, just like the Kardashians are executive producers on their show. So you're getting the lifestyle and the perspective that she wants you to see and I think you have to really take that into consideration when you're viewing the show.

Jessica Goodman:
I grew up and I'm still a reformed Jewish person and I think what's most interesting to me is seeing the different levels of Judaism portrayed on the show. One of the daughters is basically... I don't know if she considers herself secular, but she is 20 years old and she eats treyf, like oysters and all those kind of stuff. And her older sister is still Orthodox and has a very contrived storyline with her husband about whether or not she's going to be wearing pants, when she's also wearing an off the shoulder shirt. The whole thing is kind of fake, but I'm interested in seeing these conversations play out within the family and how they accept one another's different parts of religion.

Jessica Goodman:
I think there are some really problematic moments in the show too. There's been a real big backlash against her from women in the Orthodox community who say that she portrays them... That Julia says that Orthodox women don't have free will. And a lot of Orthodox women are coming out and saying that's not true. We do have free will and this is how, and this is why. I'm not part of that community so I can't really speculate or comment on that. It's really interesting to watch it play out and to see what she... How she has reinvented herself. No matter what you think of her or the show, this woman reinvented herself.

Jessica Goodman:
And some of her history, there seemed to be some gaps in it. I would really love a real deep dive fact check on what she's been up to since she left the community. But again, like I said, I can't stop talking about it. I've been texting with lots of friends about it. I can't stop watching. It's fascinating. And I can't stop searching for them on Twitter and Instagram and just figuring out what they're up to. Okay. So this is my big word vomit about the show, but that's what I think.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's all very valid. What drew me to the show, coming from my sort of perspective, was the money thing. And one of the things that I think is interesting is there is a missing link in how she sort of went... Because it hasn't been even a decade, I think, right? How did she go from having nothing? And they do make a point in the show that they don't... That the women certainly, and also the men to a large degree, are not educated in any formal way. We do have a storyline, for example-- this is a little bit of a spoiler-- that Batsheva's husband Ben, only has a high school education and therefore his career prospects are limited because that's all they do. They study Torah and they get a high school education and I presume the women have even less of an education.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing I really admired, and again we don't get the full picture, is that she did find a way. She understood that she needed money to leave the community, which is often true in... We can only know her perspective. She felt oppressed. She felt she had no control over her life. We don't know the rest of the community but given from her perspective, that's how she felt. She knew money was going to be her answer to freedom and that was one of the things that attracted to me to the show. The ability to be able to support yourself. And she talks about that a lot in her family. That she wants her family to be able to be able to support each of themselves, even though it's very clear that right now, she's really the one supporting this entire huge operation. There's a lot of designer brands out there and I thought that was a very mixed message.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, I did kind of come to the conclusion and I'm making this up. I don't know if it's true. My gut feeling is these brands give her the clothing for free, because every single person in her family and in the show is decked out at all times and usually with their labels showing. And I'm wondering if that's because the clothing is given to her? Maybe coming from the magazine world, you have some insight into that, because I do feel like it was a mixed message. You had a lot of women empowerment messages, but then it was almost like they were so weighed down in consumerism. They go to Paris and all they're talking about is shopping, shopping, shopping and I was a little bit uncomfortable with that message.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I mean, I wish I had more insight into how she got the clothes for my magazine world, but I have no idea. I mean, there are always sponsorships and partnerships and I wouldn't be surprised if she negotiated some free clothes or rentals or something like that. But yeah, I mean the consumerism and the capitalism on display in the show is over the top, but I think that's pretty true of any glam fashion-y reality show. That's a part of the reason why people watch. I'm a huge Real Housewives fan and obviously I want to watch and see what Kyle Richards is wearing because it's always really fun. Okay, one thing that you said really struck me that I can't stop thinking about is there does seem to be a gap in how she got to where she is now. So-

Bobbi Rebell:
Had you heard of her before this?

Jessica Goodman:
No.

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Exactly! No.

Jessica Goodman:
I've been googling around and trying to find some information on her and basically her "origin story" seems to be that while she was living in what she felt to be an oppressed community, she knew she wanted to get out and she started selling life insurance to the people in her community without her husband knowing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How does that really happen? First of all.

Jessica Goodman:
I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I mean, I love it. I support her. I think that's amazing. That's wonderful and innovative and brave, but anyway, go on.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. So that's how she said she got her nest egg to leave the community. Once she left the community, she says that she started a high heel company, which sounds great. Very cool. She was always into fashion and this is how she did it. How she wanted to become a business woman in that world. And I read an interview with her that was like, "How did you get financing?" And she said that she just kind of met people. She met someone in a doctor's office. She met someone on a flight to Hong Kong and they became her investors... And I just would love a little bit more information about how. Where Julia Haart came from and how was she was able to do this. It's obviously an incredible story and I just want more information about it.

Jessica Goodman:
Because then, once she had the shoe line, she sold it to La Perla and became the creative director there. She designed the thong outfit that Kendall Jenner wore to the Met Gala. That's a huge deal! She's very clearly good and successful. I just need some more information and I feel like... I just feel like she's not giving us the whole story on this show. Which is obvious because she's the one who produced it, like I said. But yeah, I mean this message of being able to start a business from nothing is incredibly powerful and important. I feel like with all of these... We hear about this kind of thing. This is the pull at your heartstrings story of I had nothing, now I own the world. I think what's really important about these stories when you're sharing them with young women is giving all the facts and making them really transparent so people can find ways to actually emulate that and do that for themselves. If you're watching this show looking for tips on how to start your own business, I don't think you're going to feel very equipped to do so after watching it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you have any favorite quotes from the show?

Jessica Goodman:
Okay, yes. I spoke about her daughter. Her second daughter, Miriam who... She's the one who goes to Stanford and she's building her own apps and she comes out as bisexual in the show and she's very cool and very free. And her mom says she's the reason for why they decided to leave the community really and she says, "People say think outside the box, but I don't even think the box exists." I just feel like she's such a cool mouthpiece for the younger generation on this show and that's just like a great little quote here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think she's awesome. So one of my favorite quotes was Julia. Julia Haart, our protagonist here saying, "I want you to never rely on anyone ever, not even me." And I didn't write down who she said that to, but I think that's really important as a-

Jessica Goodman:
Batsheva. She said it to Batsheva.

Bobbi Rebell:
To Batsheva. See, you are like a super fan of this show. Because, she does have... They're all her employees. Her children all do work for her and she's saying it's important that you establish yourself and that you are earning your money, whether you work for me or someone else and not be dependent on me as a parent. And that obviously is the sweet spot for me, writing my book about how to help our children be independent of us in a loving way and so that really hit home with me. Okay. Last little question about the show and then we're going to wrap up. Who's your favorite character and why?

Jessica Goodman:
I have two favorite character, "characters". Batsheva, just because I think she's the one who's challenging her family the most and who is challenging her mom and I found myself agreeing with her in a lot of situations. Like when Julia invites a woman from her Orthodox community to come to the city for a day of make-over and wisdom, Batsheva was right on the money when she was like, "Maybe this isn't a good idea." And the whole thing felt really exploitative to me and I feel like it did to Batsheva as well. And also Robert! Julia's best friend/employees/person who basically it seems to helm the ship at Elite. I loved him and I'm glad that they haven't really reduced him to just fun, gay sidekick character. They're giving him real storylines as well and I just think he's just a great, fun character on the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I also had a tie and I agree with you. Robert was one of my favorites and even though he does seem to come out of reality TV central casting, he's also so good. I mean, he's amazing. I would be curious if he was in this role before the show, because he's just that good. He's so perfect that it's like, whoa. But look, they do say they've been working together forever and he does fit her personality as someone that would be her right-hand man, literally. So I mean-

Jessica Goodman:
Well, I did a little LinkedIn stalking and it seems like he worked with her before.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, good. And the other person that really grew on me and he seems like a minor character, it's Batsheva's husband, Ben. I just want to hug this man through the TV because he married into a certain idea of what his life was going to be. He's not her biological child that was sort of dragged out, which all of them were... Sort of voluntarily because she seems to be on good relations with her ex-husband which is also interesting. But okay. But he is just, he married this woman and then suddenly he's thrust into this whole different life and he is not set up for it. The kid is not ready for this. The first episode, they just say he's in real estate and then it comes out later the only house, the only apartment he's sold is theirs.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it was kind of not a nice dig for Julia to make. I thought that was wrong, because she did this to him. He is... I don't want to say he's a victim because he's not portrayed as a victim in any way and he seems like a fantastic person and he's really trying so hard to adjust to things that have happened to him. He's trying to find his way and be a good husband. He was told that he should have kids the earliest possible and now he's got a wife that wants to wear pants and not have a baby till she's 30. So he's really rolling with the punches and I just think he's amazing. So yay, Ben.

Jessica Goodman:
Yeah. I could do a spin off of the two of them for sure.

Bobbi Rebell:
There might be a spinoff. I would not be surprised. Right?

Jessica Goodman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Final thoughts on the show.

Jessica Goodman:
So I still have a couple of episodes left and I'm really excited to keep going and just kind of finish it up. But I would also... If you're interested in the show and you're listening to this, I would recommend there's a great piece on Glamor. Glamour.com, about the kind of contradictions within the show and the backlash to it and explaining a lot of that stuff and I recommend that piece because it helped me think about it in a more critical way. But yeah, I... God, you know what? I'm probably going to read this woman's book too. So, yeah. I'm just interested. I'm just interested.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think it's so highly watchable and I also... For all the flaws that we talked about, I would say overall it's still a winner. I mean at a five stars, I'd still give it four and three quarter stars because while there are these inconsistencies, we don't know what was edited out. We don't know. I thought about if there's even legal things that happen behind the scenes in terms of what she can and cannot say, and it is glossy. It is definitely highly produced. But then again, it works for the show and I totally enjoyed it and I wish this whole group of people all the best success because they are risk-takers even by doing this show, even though they had control over it. And the book, I kind of hope it's not too much of a tell all. I hope that she doesn't reveal too much of her life in the name of building her persona because some things it's okay to keep private, Julia Haart. Even though we're big fans.

Jessica Goodman:
And I just want to shout out Batsheva's TikTok because I'm not even really a big fashion TikTok person and I found myself wasting a lot of time going through her very cute fashion TikToks with Ben. So highly recommend. They do-

Bobbi Rebell:
I haven't looked at it yet but I'm afraid to because it'll just... I'll never write my book.

Jessica Goodman:
No. It's a great procrastination tool.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. We're going to check it out as soon as my deadline passes in a month or so. Okay. Let's just talk quickly about They'll Never Catch Us.

Jessica Goodman:
Oh, yeah. So this is my new book, They'll never catch us. It is out July 27th. The date this episode drops, which is so exciting. And it is a young adult thriller about two sisters who are hyper competitive on a cross-country team in a small town in the Catskills, that is very dark and ominous and has a history of cold cases where young female runners go missing and they've never found the killer. And so the sister, the Steckler sisters, they are competing for the number one spot on their cross country team because their family can only afford to send one of them to college and the other one needs to get a scholarship. Their whole lives are wrapped up in cross country and everything changes when a new girl comes to town threatens to be better than both of them and take away the scholarship that one of them might get.

Jessica Goodman:
And when the new girl disappears, everyone starts to think that the Steckler sisters has something to do with her disappearance and they become the main suspects in the case. So it's a fun murder mystery that is about strength and desire and the power of teenage girls, which is what I love to write about. That's my sweet spot. And I think all my books also have a lot of themes about class distinctions, specifically within small communities and how power and money can kind of affect the way that young people think about the world and what their priorities are. So I'm excited. I'm excited for it to come out.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's coming out today. We can't wait to read it... Another distraction. I love you Batsheva, but I'm going to read this before I check out your TikTok because I know that TikTok's going to be dangerous for me. Always so good to have you on. Where can people follow you on all the socials?

Jessica Goodman:
You can follow me on Instagram, @jessicagoodman and Twitter, @jessgood. And my website is goodmanjessica.com. So find me in any one of those places and thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for being on. Everyone, please make sure you are following the podcast on whatever platform you've listened to. That's new words because apparently subscriptions have a whole new meaning and this podcast is free for you. So come back next week, we're going to continue our Summer Watch series with another money show next week. See you then. Bye guys.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by [Steve Stewart 00:22:33]. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by [Ashley Wall 00:22:39]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media. @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Do you track your “Happy Spends” against your “Sad Spends”? Dr. Elizabeth Dunn of Happy Money will have you doing that and more with her money mental wellness tips. Don’t you feel better already?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn’s 5 Money Tips to achieve financial wellness

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I spend my day-to-day work life thinking about what makes people happy and how we can make people happier. In particular, I've been really interested in how we can harness money as a tool to increase our happiness. I think the sort of overarching idea that I've been arguing throughout my career is that how much money we have actually matters less than what it is we do with it. So making more careful choices around not just how we invest our money, how we save our money-- which we think so much about-- but also how we spend our money. Can we spend it in ways that genuinely make us happier, rather than just sort of squandering it on the things that daily life tempts us with? All the things we see in sort of advertisements, things we see other people buying. Instead, can we chart our own path and find the kinds of purchases that really fill us with happiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is such a great concept and one that I should mention you do cover in your book, Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending. All right, let's get to your five tips for financial wellness. Now some of these might sound familiar, but the way that you present them is going to really resonate I think, with our audience, because you also have the data to back them up and I think that's going to really motivate a lot of us to put these into action in our lives. Okay. The first one is normalize talking about money, which we hear a lot, but you've got a different spin on it.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. This really comes from our research at Happy Money where we've seen that people in debt especially really want a chance to hear from other people that have been through that journey too. They want to know how did you get through this? How did you pay off your debt? What challenges did you overcome? We're used to talking about money maybe on the brighter side of investments and savings and so forth, but I think it's really important that we start sharing our financial lows along with our financial highs just to normalize talking about money and just taking away some of the stigma that surrounds debt. We really encourage people to talk about and think about what it is that a rich life means to them. So I would argue that rich really is not about what's in your bank account. It's about what makes you happy and fulfilled in meaningful and sustainable ways. One thing we see is that over and above how much income people earn, it really matters how they think about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Your second money tip is to treat money as a tool, but again, you are reframing the conversation here.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. So I think very often, people treat money as an end in itself. So much of financial planning, for example, surrounds how to get more money. So if we shift the conversation to be about how to get more happiness, then we start thinking of money not as an end in itself, but as a tool, kind of pathway for getting to happiness. We do know that people who have more money tend to be happier than those who have less, but this is mainly because those people with more money tend to be more able to meet their expenses and stay out of debt. In reality, the amount of money that you have really matters less than what you do with it and the key here is figuring out how to use money as a tool to boost your mental health and happiness.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This holds true whether you have a little money or a lot of money. In some of our recent data, we're seeing just how consistently these ideas hold up across the whole spectrum of income. For example, we know from research that people tend to get more satisfaction from buying time. For example, buying some help with childcare or a meal delivery service can really pay dividends in terms of life satisfaction. And from our latest data from Happy Money, we're actually seeing that this relationship holds true again, even for people who are living paycheck to paycheck, kind of struggling to make ends meet.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
It's quite a consistent principal and even more consistent, we see that people who give, who use their money to benefit others, tend to experience greater happiness. This is what we see, remarkably, even for people below the poverty line. This relationship holds true all the way across the income spectrum. At the end of the day, that's really why we created Happy Money, which is to help people use their money in ways that support their wellbeing and happiness and also allow them to build healthier and more mindful habits more broadly around their finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because some of the examples you just gave like ordering in dinner are things that we generally think of as splurges and things that we can cut out when we're trying to get control of our budgets, but we shouldn't maybe make those assumptions.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's exactly right. In our research, we see that many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress, a lot of time stress... Buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has this changed during the pandemic? Do you have any data on that? I'm curious.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. We're just beginning to fully explore this question of how these principles might've been altered through the pandemic. But I think a particularly interesting one to focus on at this stage of the pandemic is giving, because we know that many people did not give as much money as they usually would to charity during the pandemic. Many charities are really hurting right now, and so as we kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel and maybe experience some gratitude over having made it this far and still being alive, still kind of being okay. I think this is a wonderful time to pay it forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's move on to the third one. I think this is my favorite one. Track your happy spends versus sad spends.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. So I always tell people to track what you spend and how it makes you feel. So people are used to tracking their spending to try to restrain their spending or know how much they've got, but I say add on how it makes you feel so you can actually decide what's worth it to you and what's not. So really pay attention to how these purchases affect your mood and then you can start to identify what I call happy spends, these spends that really make you happy. And sad spends, maybe things that used to make you happy but aren't really paying off in terms of your happiness anymore.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This is going to help you ask yourself what actually brings you real joy and what do you regret by the next day? I would argue that when you shift your spending toward what makes you truly happy... That might be paying off debt, or savoring a treat, helping a friend donating to charity. That can enable you to make better, happier decisions around your own wellbeing and it's also a great opportunity to start thinking about investing in your future self. What are the purchases that make you happy when you first acquire them, but also still continue to provide happiness dividends going forward. I think that's a really fascinating issue. Helping people gain better self insight into what makes them happy starts with just paying attention in the moment to what's providing you joy and what's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
I was so glad to see this next one on the list because it really resonates with so many of us coming out of this pandemic. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis for me on celebrate along the way, because we really don't know what's going to happen.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. I mean, this experience of the past year has really made me appreciate the value of just celebrating what's good in the moment. So, I recommend when people are tackling a big financial challenge or big life challenge, start with small manageable changes. Achievable changes. And then do take the time to celebrate those little milestones along the way. So it isn't necessarily about just achieving your final goal and that's the only time you should celebrate. Celebrate each piece of it. So break your big goals into more bite sized pieces and these small steps are going to be a lot easier to form into sticky sorts of habits. Just to give some examples, you could start with little changes like saving $10 a week, or maybe giving $15 to a charitable organization that needs your support, or try putting an extra $50 a month toward your credit card debt.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
These are potentially more achievable changes that over time can actually have a really big impact on your overall happiness. So what we've seen in our data at Happy Money is that even building up a little bit of savings can go a long way in terms of people's life satisfaction. So we see that people with just $400 in emergency savings reported over 13% higher levels of life satisfaction compared to people who didn't have that cushion.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're removing that anxiety, right?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I think that's a huge part of it. So we see that when people have savings, it kind of acts as this cushion that protects them from some of the shocks of unexpected events in daily life and can also just reassure people that they're going to be a little bit insulated. I think that's one of the big lessons for me from the pandemic because we just don't know what the future holds. Save up some money now so you're ready for whatever surprises the future might have in store.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this last one, I think, is just so essential and I hope that people take the time and really take it seriously. And that is to take the time to deal with your feelings around money... Because we often get so caught up in life's day-to-day, we never stop and kind of examine how we're approaching money.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. And I think this is probably the most important tip. That we focus so much on the sort of objective financial challenges surrounding money itself but we have to also deal with the feelings that are hovering around those challenges. So thinking about this, we decided last year to introduce a new money, mindfulness and stress reduction program that we call Peace. Like peace and love. This free course is really neat because it incorporates cognitive behavioral therapy and psychology to help people understand and reduce the impact that financial stress is having on their lives. The fact that it's completely free was super important to me. This is something we are giving away to just help people deal with the financial stress that the past year has created.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
What we did was really to try to think about how could busy people fit this into their lives? As somebody who's got a full-time job and a kid I thought, 'Could I make this work even for me?' Each exercise is really broken down into these small digestible bites and everything is personalized to the individual and really designed to build skills for addressing stress levels. And going beyond just combating stress, we also wanted to think about the positive sides. So we've got a whole week that's devoted to just helping people promote more positive thoughts and actions. To learn how to amplify their positive emotions and get more joy out of the tiny pleasures of daily life like sitting in the sunshine or eating a piece of chocolate.

Follow Dr. Elizabeth Dunn!

• Instagram - @happymoney

• Twitter - @DunnHappyLab

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/happy-money/

• Website - https://happymoney.com/company/

• Happy Money’s FREE course - Peace - https://peace.happymoney.com/peace
  
  
  
  

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes mugs, pillows, tees, and seriously the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grown-up for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
In our research, we see that people, many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress-- a lot of time stress-- buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being grown up is hard, but together we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends! I hope everyone is having fun this summer and feeling healthy and most of all, feeling happier these days. A lot of things affect our moods. I know for me, I always feel better when the weather is good and there is scientific evidence that for some people, including me, sunshine and warmth really does have an impact on our moods. There's also evidence that what's going on with our money can have a measurable impact, a scientifically measurable impact on our mood and yes, our happiness. So, okay. For most of us, it doesn't take a scientific survey or research or whatever to tell us that if we're worried about money, we're not happy. But stick with me friends, because if we understand the science, we can then take it to the next level and implement real strategies to boost our financial wellness.

Bobbi Rebell:
So for example, a lot of the time, things like meal delivery plans are framed as something that maybe we should feel a little guilty about. We see it as a splurge, a luxury, and certainly discretionary when we're having budgeting discussions. But here's the thing. Apparently, things that buy us time are scientifically proven to be good for our mental health and could actually be one of the best uses of our money.

Bobbi Rebell:
I found the perfect guest to tell us more about all of that and also to teach us how we can incorporate good money habits that lead to happiness into our lives. Dr. Elizabeth Dunn is a professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of British Columbia and the Chief Science Officer at Happy Money, a Los Angeles based FinTech company. Now Dunn is also the author of Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending which she co authored with Michael Norton of Harvard Business School. Dr. Dunn conducts experimental research on happiness, exploring how people can optimize their use of time, money and technology to promote well-being. Her TED 2019 Talk on generosity and happiness, has been viewed over 3 million times and was selected by TED as one of the top 10 Talks of that year 2019. She is amazing and we are in for a treat. Here is Dr. Elizabeth Dunn. Dr. Elizabeth Dunn, you are a financial grownup. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
So, okay. Before we get to... You're going to be talking about five tips for financial wellness and improving our mental health, especially as it relates to money. I have to ask you, you call yourself a happiness researcher. Tell us about that.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Well, I spend my day-to-day work life thinking about what makes people happy and how we can make people happier. In particular, I've been really interested in how we can harness money as a tool to increase our happiness. I think the sort of overarching idea that I've been arguing throughout my career is that how much money we have actually matters less than what it is we do with it. So making more careful choices around not just how we invest our money, how we save our money-- which we think so much about-- but also how we spend our money. Can we spend it in ways that genuinely make us happier, rather than just sort of squandering it on the things that daily life tempts us with? All the things we see in sort of advertisements, things we see other people buying. Instead, can we chart our own path and find the kinds of purchases that really fill us with happiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is such a great concept and one that I should mention you do cover in your book, Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending. All right, let's get to your five tips for financial wellness. Now some of these might sound familiar, but the way that you present them is going to really resonate I think, with our audience, because you also have the data to back them up and I think that's going to really motivate a lot of us to put these into action in our lives. Okay. The first one is normalize talking about money, which we hear a lot, but you've got a different spin on it.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. This really comes from our research at Happy Money where we've seen that people in debt especially really want a chance to hear from other people that have been through that journey too. They want to know how did you get through this? How did you pay off your debt? What challenges did you overcome? We're used to talking about money maybe on the brighter side of investments and savings and so forth, but I think it's really important that we start sharing our financial lows along with our financial highs just to normalize talking about money and just taking away some of the stigma that surrounds debt. We really encourage people to talk about and think about what it is that a rich life means to them. So I would argue that rich really is not about what's in your bank account. It's about what makes you happy and fulfilled in meaningful and sustainable ways. One thing we see is that over and above how much income people earn, it really matters how they think about money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Your second money tip is to treat money as a tool, but again, you are reframing the conversation here.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Right. So I think very often, people treat money as an end in itself. So much of financial planning, for example, surrounds how to get more money. So if we shift the conversation to be about how to get more happiness, then we start thinking of money not as an end in itself, but as a tool, kind of pathway for getting to happiness. We do know that people who have more money tend to be happier than those who have less, but this is mainly because those people with more money tend to be more able to meet their expenses and stay out of debt. In reality, the amount of money that you have really matters less than what you do with it and the key here is figuring out how to use money as a tool to boost your mental health and happiness.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This holds true whether you have a little money or a lot of money. In some of our recent data, we're seeing just how consistently these ideas hold up across the whole spectrum of income. For example, we know from research that people tend to get more satisfaction from buying time. For example, buying some help with childcare or a meal delivery service can really pay dividends in terms of life satisfaction. And from our latest data from Happy Money, we're actually seeing that this relationship holds true again, even for people who are living paycheck to paycheck, kind of struggling to make ends meet.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
It's quite a consistent principal and even more consistent, we see that people who give, who use their money to benefit others, tend to experience greater happiness. This is what we see, remarkably, even for people below the poverty line. This relationship holds true all the way across the income spectrum. At the end of the day, that's really why we created Happy Money, which is to help people use their money in ways that support their wellbeing and happiness and also allow them to build healthier and more mindful habits more broadly around their finances.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's interesting because some of the examples you just gave like ordering in dinner are things that we generally think of as splurges and things that we can cut out when we're trying to get control of our budgets, but we shouldn't maybe make those assumptions.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's exactly right. In our research, we see that many people do experience guilt around using their money to buy themselves some time. Just give yourself a break from that guilt. What we see in our research is that buying time really is a good way to promote your happiness and if you're experiencing a lot of stress, a lot of time stress... Buying time can help buffer your overall wellbeing from those feelings of time stress that can otherwise chip away at your mental health.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has this changed during the pandemic? Do you have any data on that? I'm curious.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. We're just beginning to fully explore this question of how these principles might've been altered through the pandemic. But I think a particularly interesting one to focus on at this stage of the pandemic is giving, because we know that many people did not give as much money as they usually would to charity during the pandemic. Many charities are really hurting right now, and so as we kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel and maybe experience some gratitude over having made it this far and still being alive, still kind of being okay. I think this is a wonderful time to pay it forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Let's move on to the third one. I think this is my favorite one. Track your happy spends versus sad spends.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Yeah. So I always tell people to track what you spend and how it makes you feel. So people are used to tracking their spending to try to restrain their spending or know how much they've got, but I say add on how it makes you feel so you can actually decide what's worth it to you and what's not. So really pay attention to how these purchases affect your mood and then you can start to identify what I call happy spends, these spends that really make you happy. And sad spends, maybe things that used to make you happy but aren't really paying off in terms of your happiness anymore.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
This is going to help you ask yourself what actually brings you real joy and what do you regret by the next day? I would argue that when you shift your spending toward what makes you truly happy... That might be paying off debt, or savoring a treat, helping a friend donating to charity. That can enable you to make better, happier decisions around your own wellbeing and it's also a great opportunity to start thinking about investing in your future self. What are the purchases that make you happy when you first acquire them, but also still continue to provide happiness dividends going forward. I think that's a really fascinating issue. Helping people gain better self insight into what makes them happy starts with just paying attention in the moment to what's providing you joy and what's not.

Bobbi Rebell:
I was so glad to see this next one on the list because it really resonates with so many of us coming out of this pandemic. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis for me on celebrate along the way, because we really don't know what's going to happen.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. I mean, this experience of the past year has really made me appreciate the value of just celebrating what's good in the moment. So, I recommend when people are tackling a big financial challenge or big life challenge, start with small manageable changes. Achievable changes. And then do take the time to celebrate those little milestones along the way. So it isn't necessarily about just achieving your final goal and that's the only time you should celebrate. Celebrate each piece of it. So break your big goals into more bite sized pieces and these small steps are going to be a lot easier to form into sticky sorts of habits. Just to give some examples, you could start with little changes like saving $10 a week, or maybe giving $15 to a charitable organization that needs your support, or try putting an extra $50 a month toward your credit card debt.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
These are potentially more achievable changes that over time can actually have a really big impact on your overall happiness. So what we've seen in our data at Happy Money is that even building up a little bit of savings can go a long way in terms of people's life satisfaction. So we see that people with just $400 in emergency savings reported over 13% higher levels of life satisfaction compared to people who didn't have that cushion.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you're removing that anxiety, right?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
I think that's a huge part of it. So we see that when people have savings, it kind of acts as this cushion that protects them from some of the shocks of unexpected events in daily life and can also just reassure people that they're going to be a little bit insulated. I think that's one of the big lessons for me from the pandemic because we just don't know what the future holds. Save up some money now so you're ready for whatever surprises the future might have in store.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this last one, I think, is just so essential and I hope that people take the time and really take it seriously. And that is to take the time to deal with your feelings around money... Because we often get so caught up in life's day-to-day, we never stop and kind of examine how we're approaching money.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
That's right. And I think this is probably the most important tip. That we focus so much on the sort of objective financial challenges surrounding money itself but we have to also deal with the feelings that are hovering around those challenges. So thinking about this, we decided last year to introduce a new money, mindfulness and stress reduction program that we call Peace. Like peace and love. This free course is really neat because it incorporates cognitive behavioral therapy and psychology to help people understand and reduce the impact that financial stress is having on their lives. The fact that it's completely free was super important to me. This is something we are giving away to just help people deal with the financial stress that the past year has created.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
What we did was really to try to think about how could busy people fit this into their lives? As somebody who's got a full-time job and a kid I thought, 'Could I make this work even for me?' Each exercise is really broken down into these small digestible bites and everything is personalized to the individual and really designed to build skills for addressing stress levels. And going beyond just combating stress, we also wanted to think about the positive sides. So we've got a whole week that's devoted to just helping people promote more positive thoughts and actions. To learn how to amplify their positive emotions and get more joy out of the tiny pleasures of daily life like sitting in the sunshine or eating a piece of chocolate.

Bobbi Rebell:
We so needed all of these reminders. Where can people follow up with you and then follow you on all the socials?

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Well, my number one tip would be to go over to happymoney.com\peace. There they can find more about our Peace program, this free six week program to help people decrease their stress levels. They can follow me on Twitter. I'm @DunnHappyLab. I would also just suggest checking out Happy Money more broadly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Dr. Elizabeth Dunn:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you feeling happier? Let's do a quick review of some of the concepts here. Okay. First of all, we want to make sure that we actually talk about money with other people. Not to other people by the way, with other people. And it doesn't mean revealing your personal data. It's more like finding comfort in the discussions and taking the stress out of mutual money decisions. So for example, if you make plans with friends to go out, think carefully not just about making sure the place that you go fits your budget, but also fits their budget. So one way to do this is to say that you're going to take control and you'll plan the event or the dining out or whatever you're doing, but give them a few choices. Make sure they're at kind of different price points and point that out to them and maybe in a casual way, be like, "We could splurge and do this, or we could be more budget friendly and do this," or somewhere in between. And you can gauge the reaction from that. It takes away the awkwardness.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the fact that Dr. Dunn talks about treating money as a tool, but not as an end in and of itself. So let's focus on how to get more happiness and how money can get us there. Letting go of the guilt when you buy time to boost happiness. So yeah, hire that babysitter and go on date night. I didn't do it a lot, but maybe I should have. All right track how you spend and how it makes you feel. This is going to help you identify happy spends versus sad spends. I love the way she puts that. Start small and celebrate along the way with an emphasis on celebrating the milestones along the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
And finally, take the time to deal with your feelings about money. By the way, if you're looking for more info about happiness, definitely check out my recent episode with Meaghan Murphy, where we talk about specific ways to be happier and make sure to also read Meaghan's book, Your Fully Charged Life, which is a great summer beach read. You'll love the cover by the way, it's so... The cover itself makes you happy.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you enjoy this episode, I would love your help. Make sure you are following it on the platform of your choice and make sure you share it with friends. One easy way to do that is just take a screenshot and post it on your social media and of course, please tag me so I can thank you and I can also share it as well. Growing the show is really hard and your help means the world to me. On Instagram, by the way, I'm @bobbirebell1. B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L and then the number one. I highly recommend Dr. Dunn's free Peace course. So go to our show notes at bobbirebell.com under podcast for details. I also provide summaries and full transcripts of the show in the show notes. So please definitely use that resource. It's there for you. It's also free. And of course, we are so thankful and so happy that Dr. Elizabeth Dunn was able to join us and help us all be happy financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by [Steve Stewart 00:18:04]. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by [Ashley Wall 00:18:09]. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and @bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts . Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Anne-Lyse, author of Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids, shares her money tips for home buyers as well as her experiences and lessons to not get taken advantage of in business- especially from people you think you can trust.

Anne-Lyse’s Money Story

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure, absolutely. When my husband and I were getting ready to buy a first home, we were looking in a specific neighborhood. And after a little while we found our home. And we went through the normal process to get a loan. We got a home inspection, and we were excited. We were going to become homeowners. We had our first child. Then we had two other kids. And one day, we decided to go out of town for the weekend.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
As first-time homeowners, we didn't know that when you leave, even if it's for a couple of days, it's probably a good idea to shut down the water at your house. So we came back to a...

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, just pause right there. I don't think a lot of people do know that, because that's a big tip right there. We live in an apartment. We don't shut off all of our water. I don't even know if that's possible in an apartment, but this is certainly news to me. When you leave a house, you're supposed to turn off the whole water system. Not just not leave a faucet running.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes. It's advice to shut off the water system, and we didn't know until this happened to us. When we came back, our house was... I mean, the main floor, which was the kitchen, there was water damage. It had gone all the way down to our basement. We had to redo the entire main level of the floors. We had to redo the basement. And it all happened because the water line connected to the dishwasher, there was an issue there. And then we were out of town for a couple of days. So by the time we came back, it was a complete mess.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had to move out of our house for about I want to say six weeks. At the time, we had twin babies and a three-year-old. It took a while for the house to be renovated. We stayed in temporary housing for a little bit. And luckily, our insurance company covered most of the costs, but we found out that they weren't going to renew our policy. Two lessons there. The first one is, well, first of all, make sure that you shut off your water when you are leaving for more than a day.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And then the second one is before signing up for insurance, you talk to your insurance company and understand their policies. Because what we found out is the prior year, there was hailstorm in our neighborhood and our roof was damaged. The insurance company had replaced our roof, so that was two claims in two years. But those were the only claims we've had in about, I think, four years. The policy was if you have two claims in the past five years, well, you need to find a new insurance company.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And even though those were the only things that we've ever had, we had a really hard time finding another company to cover our insurance. As a result of that, our premium went up by, I think, five or six times. My advice is make sure that you understand the policies that your insurance company has. And also like for us, when we finally got out of that five-year range, we signed up for a company that allowed two incidents to happen without basically cutting you off after five years.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
So now we have a company that will let you have two incidents in two, three years as opposed to five.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one thinks about that kind of thing, so I think that's a great lesson. What other lessons do you have as a first time home buyer for first time home buyers?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When we went through the process to get our loan approved, we went through the inspection. There was some initial structural damage that had been fixed by the previous owner, and we received a letter from the engineer. The engineer came back and provided a letter to say that everything was back in order. But when it was time for us to sell our home I want to say five, six years later, we were in the process of getting everything done. We had an offer on the table.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one. It turns out that the structural damage was not fixed. It was a much bigger problem than we thought, and the buyer pulled their offer. It was the same structural engineer that we had hired a couple of months prior to make sure that everything was back on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think here the lesson is, and nothing against real estate investors, but when you do buy a home, just consider bringing in your own structural engineer. But when you do buy from an investor, pay even more attention to everything that's going on within the house. Because in this situation, they didn't really fix the problem. They put a bandaid on it and it got worse with time. As a result of that, we ended up selling the house for $100,000 less than we were expected to.

Bobbi Rebell:
It was the same inspector, so he changed his report?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
It wasn't an inspector. It was a structural engineer. The inspector cleared the house, but he recommended that we get a letter from the structural engineer that had done the work. The structural engineer came back, provided a report. But then a few years down the line when we were getting ready to sell the home, we hired another engineer to make sure that we were on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When the buyer asked that we provided the number of the engineer, we didn't have a problem because we knew that everything was good. But the engineer came back and gave them a report, refused to show us a report saying that we had to also pay the fee so that they would give us the report. And after that, the buyer just walked away and we hired another company. And that's when we realized that no, it was going to cost a lot more to fix the problem.

Bobbi Rebell:
The same structural engineer changed his story?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you confront them about this?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, when this happened, he was like, "Well, I came probably..." I think it was maybe six months or a year prior things changed, so we couldn't really prove that he had given us a different scenario. He had recommended that we do work. We did the work. After that, he refused to show us the report. To this day, I haven't seen the report that he gave to the buyer.

Anne-Lyse’s Money Lesson + Money Tip

I think the tip for us is if you do buy a house that is a preexisting home, it's not a bad idea to go one step further than just hiring a home inspector, getting a structural engineer. In our case, I think it would have been better to get two different engineers so we could make an educated decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which seems expensive in the short-term, but clearly it costs you in the long-term not doing that, right?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Exactly. I think I would have gladly paid the extra $500 and save $100,000.

Follow Anne-Lyse!

• Instagram - @annelysewealth

• Facebook - @annelysewealth

• Twitter - @annelysewealth

• Pinterest - @annelysewealth

• Website - http://dreamoflegacy.com

• Book - Dream of Legacy

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have this solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates, if you can't decide. Use code "grownup" for a 15% off your first order.

Bobbi Rebell:
Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had an offer on the table. We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grownup is hard. But together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are you wondering what that surprise was? Well, get ready to learn so much in this episode with Anne-Lyse. She has a wealth coach, a writer, and host of The Dreamers Podcast. She's also the founder of dreamoflegacy.com, a platform dedicated to inspiring millennials to build wealth with purpose, as well as the author of Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids.

Bobbi Rebell:
In our interview, Anne-Lyse is very honest about the mistakes that she and her husband made with their home and all the grownup responsibilities that came with residential ownership. And here's the thing, even though she felt she should have done certain things that might have saved her from a lot of financial pain, the so-called mistakes were things that frankly all of us do, or in some cases, don't do. Please listen carefully because I don't want anyone else to get hurt the way she and her family did.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now later in the interview, things get even more real when Anne-Lyse shares details of how her father lost everything he had worked for, and she mentions it in the book, but she doesn't go into a lot of details. In our interview, I was really moved that she felt comfortable enough to share the details that weren't revealed in the book, and I am truly grateful for it. You are all going to benefit from it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Listening to this interview will be time very well spent. Here is Anne-Lyse. Anne-Lyse, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Hi, Bobbi. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I'm excited to talk in a few minutes about your book, Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids. But first, I wanted you to come on and talk about your experience buying a new home and sharing some of your tips for new home buyers, because that is something so many people are doing right now. Give us some context though first, Anne-Lyse. Tell us what happened to you and then we'll get to your tips.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure, absolutely. When my husband and I were getting ready to buy a first home, we were looking in a specific neighborhood. And after a little while we found our home. And we went through the normal process to get a loan. We got a home inspection, and we were excited. We were going to become homeowners. We had our first child. Then we had two other kids. And one day, we decided to go out of town for the weekend.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
As first-time homeowners, we didn't know that when you leave, even if it's for a couple of days, it's probably a good idea to shut down the water at your house. So we came back to a...

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, just pause right there. I don't think a lot of people do know that, because that's a big tip right there. We live in an apartment. We don't shut off all of our water. I don't even know if that's possible in an apartment, but this is certainly news to me. When you leave a house, you're supposed to turn off the whole water system. Not just not leave a faucet running.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes. It's advice to shut off the water system, and we didn't know until this happened to us. When we came back, our house was... I mean, the main floor, which was the kitchen, there was water damage. It had gone all the way down to our basement. We had to redo the entire main level of the floors. We had to redo the basement. And it all happened because the water line connected to the dishwasher, there was an issue there. And then we were out of town for a couple of days. So by the time we came back, it was a complete mess.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We had to move out of our house for about I want to say six weeks. At the time, we had twin babies and a three-year-old. It took a while for the house to be renovated. We stayed in temporary housing for a little bit. And luckily, our insurance company covered most of the costs, but we found out that they weren't going to renew our policy. Two lessons there. The first one is, well, first of all, make sure that you shut off your water when you are leaving for more than a day.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And then the second one is before signing up for insurance, you talk to your insurance company and understand their policies. Because what we found out is the prior year, there was hailstorm in our neighborhood and our roof was damaged. The insurance company had replaced our roof, so that was two claims in two years. But those were the only claims we've had in about, I think, four years. The policy was if you have two claims in the past five years, well, you need to find a new insurance company.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
And even though those were the only things that we've ever had, we had a really hard time finding another company to cover our insurance. As a result of that, our premium went up by, I think, five or six times. My advice is make sure that you understand the policies that your insurance company has. And also like for us, when we finally got out of that five-year range, we signed up for a company that allowed two incidents to happen without basically cutting you off after five years.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
So now we have a company that will let you have two incidents in two, three years as opposed to five.

Bobbi Rebell:
No one thinks about that kind of thing, so I think that's a great lesson. What other lessons do you have as a first time home buyer for first time home buyers?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When we went through the process to get our loan approved, we went through the inspection. There was some initial structural damage that had been fixed by the previous owner, and we received a letter from the engineer. The engineer came back and provided a letter to say that everything was back in order. But when it was time for us to sell our home I want to say five, six years later, we were in the process of getting everything done. We had an offer on the table.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
We were literally days away from closing on the house, and we had a surprise, not a good one. It turns out that the structural damage was not fixed. It was a much bigger problem than we thought, and the buyer pulled their offer. It was the same structural engineer that we had hired a couple of months prior to make sure that everything was back on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think here the lesson is, and nothing against real estate investors, but when you do buy a home, just consider bringing in your own structural engineer. But when you do buy from an investor, pay even more attention to everything that's going on within the house. Because in this situation, they didn't really fix the problem. They put a bandaid on it and it got worse with time. As a result of that, we ended up selling the house for $100,000 less than we were expected to.

Bobbi Rebell:
It was the same inspector, so he changed his report?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
It wasn't an inspector. It was a structural engineer. The inspector cleared the house, but he recommended that we get a letter from the structural engineer that had done the work. The structural engineer came back, provided a report. But then a few years down the line when we were getting ready to sell the home, we hired another engineer to make sure that we were on track.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
When the buyer asked that we provided the number of the engineer, we didn't have a problem because we knew that everything was good. But the engineer came back and gave them a report, refused to show us a report saying that we had to also pay the fee so that they would give us the report. And after that, the buyer just walked away and we hired another company. And that's when we realized that no, it was going to cost a lot more to fix the problem.

Bobbi Rebell:
The same structural engineer changed his story?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you confront them about this?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, when this happened, he was like, "Well, I came probably..." I think it was maybe six months or a year prior things changed, so we couldn't really prove that he had given us a different scenario. He had recommended that we do work. We did the work. After that, he refused to show us the report. To this day, I haven't seen the report that he gave to the buyer.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson and the tip from that?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think the tip for us is if you do buy a house that is a preexisting home, it's not a bad idea to go one step further than just hiring a home inspector, getting a structural engineer. In our case, I think it would have been better to get two different engineers so we could make an educated decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which seems expensive in the short-term, but clearly it costs you in the long-term not doing that, right?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Exactly. I think I would have gladly paid the extra $500 and save $100,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, I think so. This breaks my heart. It unfortunately reminds me of some things that you share in your book, which I mentioned at the top of the episode. It's called Dream of Legacy: Raising Strong and Financially Secure Black Kids. But in that, you recall a lot of your family experiences and the money experiences of your parents. Can you share a little bit of that, because I believe there's a lot of tips we can learn from that?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure. I think there's so much to talk about here. But if I want to focus on the essential, one thing that I learned from my parents growing up is to live below your means.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that was especially important in your community. Can you talk about that and the cultural pressures that they did have?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Oh, absolutely. My parents had five biological children, but I grew up in a house full of cousins. A bunch of my cousins lived with us because in my culture, the person who makes it is expected to take care of the family. My parents were not only taking care of us financially, but they were financially providing for cousins and even like their siblings. There's a lot of financial pressure that comes with getting to a good place financially.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I think one of the reason why my parents always lived below their means, and also just preparing for the unexpected. I'll share here a couple of instances where that will really help them and our family. One of them is... Sometime in the '90s, my father, he had a business partner that he had worked with for a while, and they had a couple of businesses together, or actually I should say, so he thought, because it turns out that...

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
I don't know if you've ever watched the movie Catch Me If You Can, but his business partner was actually a master at deceiving. There were a couple of businesses that they had started and he basically robbed my father of a significant amount of money. To be fully transparent, that was in the '90s and it's the equivalent of $700,000 in today's dollars.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow!

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Yes, and that was very complicated schemes that his business partner did. Overnight your retirement funds or some of your retirement funds disappeared. It took a few years for my father to realize what this man was knowing, because he was not only his business partner, he was also his lawyer. So that definitely impacted my parents' bottom line. But because they had been living below their means, they were able to sustain that challenge.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Later on, my mother was diagnosed with a long-term illness and she kind of overnight needed 24-hour care. My parents live in a country where insurance or disability insurance is not really a thing. You have to finance it yourself. Now all of a sudden, my mother was working, so it's down to just one person working, and now you have to pay for very heavy medical fees. If my parents hadn't lived below their means, they wouldn't have been able to.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow! This is a lot. I'm so happy that they did do that. What is the tip from that, I guess, beyond obviously you want to live below your means?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Well, that's the main tip, but I think just in general... This is more like a general tip. You just have to double and triple check and even the people who are supposed to be your advisors, whether it's your financial or your lawyer, you just have to make sure that they are serving your best interests and you cannot blindly trust them.

Bobbi Rebell:
Don't blindly trust somebody. Yes. Check the paperwork. Even if someone else's is doing it and you think that they're taking care of everything and you trust them, it's still important to get in there and understand what's going on yourself. This has been wonderful. Anne-Lyse, where can people find out more about you and about Anne-Lyse Wealth?

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Sure. I am at dreamoflegacy.com if you want to visit me there and sign up for my newsletter. You can also find out more about my book, which is Dream of Legacy, on my website or on Amazon. And I'm also on Instagram and Twitter @annelysewealth, which is A-N-N-E-L-Y-S-E-W-E-A-L-T-H.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much for sharing so much. I really loved having you.

Anne-Lyse Wealth:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, grownups, let's review just some of the highlights from this interview with Anne-Lyse. Be careful when you buy insurance. Actually read and make sure you understand all the coverage limits. And if you don't fully understand it, take it to someone who can walk you through how things would actually play out in different scenarios. You don't think you're going to have those multiple claims, but, well, that's what insurance is for, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Double and triple check with a home inspectors and engineers so you do know the actual true status of your home's structural health and make sure you document everything. Just because you think you can trust someone like a business partner who is a dear friend and, in the case of Anne-Lyse's father, you're a long time lawyer, you still need to be checking the numbers. Do not trust blindly. That's a harsh lesson, but yeah. Be aware of cultural money pressures.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, Anne-Lyse talked about this a little bit, but I strongly recommend everyone read her book, Dream of Legacy, because in it she talks about the cultural norms that can often lead to damaging financial decisions and habits in the black community. Every culture is different, of course. But whatever your heritage is, it's important to identify and understand how it impacts the money habits for you and for those around you. I would love to hear how you think the environment, culture, and even the people around you impact your money decisions.

Bobbi Rebell:
DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. And if you aren't already subscribed, please sign up for my now weekly money tips newsletter. You're going to get insights about our interviews, previews of upcoming Clubhouse sessions, and links to relevant news and information to lead your best brought up life. Big thanks to Anne-Lyse of Anne-Lyse Wealth for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast's show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Woman’s Day Editor-in-Chief Meaghan Murphy shares how her enthusiasm for things she loves turns into sales.  Plus tips for dealing with toxic bosses at work, why she loves coupons even more than ever, and a preview of her awesome new book "Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay."

Meaghan’s Money Tips

Bobbi Rebell:
For any doubters who don't see the connection between happiness, and a positive attitude, and success like, being really good at selling. There it is. There is a connection. Even though it comes so naturally to you Meaghan, that you don't see it. There is a huge connection. Let's get into some of the tips. So the first one that I want to talk about is how to deal with toxic bosses or colleagues?

Meaghan Murphy:
Avoid them as much as possible. Give and requests only much information as needed as to do your job. Keep things professional. Don't get sucked into that. I also say, ignore the bait and bite your tongue instead. I love Terri Cole. She has a new book coming out too called Boundary Boss, but she calls it being unprovokable. And I find being unprovokable and using that word as sort of a mantra, I'm unprovokable, I find it very empowering. So no matter what somebody spews at me, how somebody is trying to drag me down, I just don't fall for the bait. I bite my tongue and I smile and I don't fall for it. And I find it's very gratifying, right, to be unprovokable. I highly recommend that. I also say, always kill them with kindness. I'm always going to be kind. I'm always going to be generous.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm always going to be helpful. And even if there's a little piece of me that dies in the process, I am absolutely going to kill them with kindness. And I find that the haters often come around. And one of my favorite, like sort of Instagram bumper stickers is hustle until the haters ask, if you're hiring. This has happened to me quite often, where I've stayed above the fray. I haven't given them a lot of my brain space, or my energy, or my focus. I've sort of created this force field of positivity against that toxic energy. And eventually they soften up and they suddenly want to be my friend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And the next one actually ties into this very well. It's something you learned from Shonda Rhimes when you edited one of her interviews.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm obsessed with Shonda. I was the executive editor at Good Housekeeping at the time. And she was like, always have hard conversations ASAP. Don't wait for a good time. Right? We angst about when we're going to have this conversation, because we got to wait for the right time. We've got wait for that right moment. Well, guess what? That right moment never actually happens. And you've wasted energy and bandwidth angsting about when it's going to happen. Do it ASAP. Just have the hard conversation. And I've done that where like, I can feel my palms sweating. I can feel my voice shaking. I'm getting the sweats, but I am absolutely going to pick up the phone or walk into the office and have that really, really difficult conversation without hesitation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So easy to say, so hard to do. But I'm going to work on that. I know I've had a really hard time with that myself. You also say something that a lot of people have said the opposite. So I think our listeners are going to really benefit from hearing about this. You say respond to every email.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's super counterintuitive, right? Because doesn't that seem like a time suck? And I guess I should make the caveat, every email that the person... Like so if it's spam, they've spelled your name wrong, gotten the name of your publication wrong, that can be a delete. But if someone has taken the time to engage with you. If a publicist reaches out to me and say, oh, Meaghan, looks like you had a great time in St. Thomas from your Instagram. I've got this great pitch. I think it could be a fit for this section. They deserve a response. That's a kindness, that's a professional courtesy. And in so many instances where I've responded and said, you know what? This is not a fit for me. I'm going to keep it top of mind. Or I've exchanged some kind of a kindness of like that was a great pitch.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's not right for me. Maybe it's right for so-and-so over here. Did you think about that? I have benefited from those interactions in so many crazy ways where they're like, oh, you know what? You should know this person, or what about this or... Good things come to you when you're a good human being. It's this kindness networking boomerang. And I can't tell you how good it feels to walk through a trade show and be like, oh, that's Meaghan Murphy. She's the best. She always responds to email. She's so courteous and polite. It's a kindness that I will extend to anyone who makes a concerted effort to contact me.

Bobbi Rebell:
And these are people that you're basically saying no to, which is amazing.

Meaghan Murphy:
I kind of think of the world as like a Lite Brite board. Do you remember Lite Brite boards when you were a kid?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Meaghan Murphy:
And the more of those colorful pegs you put into the board, the clearer the picture gets, and eventually you have this bright, vibrant, interesting picture. To me I sort of look like people and connections and ideas as those pegs, those little lights. And the more I put in the board, the clearer the picture becomes, the more it lights up. And so I am never worried that if I introduce you to so-and-so, then somehow there's less work for me. Or if I connect to these two people, I'm going to be boxed out. Absolutely not. I assume that we all have our own secret sauce. We all shine in our own way. And my shine doesn't diminish yours and your shine doesn't diminish mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important. Because that's something that I have been so relieved about as I've embarked on my own journey, independent from corporate life. I was afraid that people wouldn't want to help me, but it's been just the opposite. I feel like so many people have been so kind and opened up doors. And hopefully I do just as much for other people. Because if you are secure in what you're doing and what you bring to the table, no one else is you. So there's nothing to fear.

Meaghan Murphy:
And here's the deal though. That's hard earned. I'm a 45 year old mother of three. Who's been at this for 25 years. Did I feel that way in my 20s? Probably not so much. Right. I was probably more protective of my ideas, and my successes, and my connections back in the day. I've learned my lesson. Right? I understand that we lift each other up and all the cliches, real queens fix each other's crowns. I do better when I'm lifting others up. And I find it always pays me back in unexpected ways. And so yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. Absolutely. Okay. I want to whip through a few quick hit, simple things that people can do. And these are examples. There are tons of these in your book. Number one, make your bed.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah. I wrote two pages about it in the book because 82% of people who make their bed feel more productive during the day. And it's a very simple task. That's the whole point of the book. It's a toolkit. And some of the tools are going to work for you and they're going to make you happier, and they're going to make you more productive, and they're going to make you more successful. And you can roll your eyes and not make your bed, but try it. Because 82% of people who do, feel more productive.

Bobbi Rebell:
The second one I want to point out, these are like the quick hits, dopamine dressing. I mean, I literally am wearing a pink scrunchie in my hair right now because it makes me happy.

Meaghan Murphy:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Even though no one else can see it. Dopamine dressing, talk about it.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's dressed the way you want to feel. I studied acting and I talk about it like, my clothes as a costume. Right. If I were going on stage playing a doctor, I'm not wearing a Fireman's uniform. So what's the life you want. We always say dress for the job you want. Dress for the life you want. Are you going to a funeral or a party? What does that look like?

Bobbi Rebell:
The pandemic, when so many of us are working from home, actually in a way gives us permission to really dress the way we want. We don't have to dress in the way that other people do because no one else can see you sometimes.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. This one, this is something my mom, who's no longer with us did in the late stages of her life. And so it really hit home for me. And I know it made her happy, is put fresh flowers in your house. I mean, she started doing a flower delivery where every week they would come. She had her fancy vases and she had a rotation going where they would take the old one and bring it back. And then bring another one back each week. So every day she would get them made in her vase. And it was such an important thing in those last years when she was ill.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's major. And that's the thing, it's not like, oh yeah, buying your flowers is nice, or it's frivolous, or... There's so much great research. There's great Harvard research that says, fresh flowers in your house actually have the power to ease anxiety, to boost your mood. So why not do that? And I joke about this. During the pandemic, I took a pair of scissors when you couldn't get flowers anywhere. And it was full lockdown mode. And I walked over the park and I cut some daffodils because I was like, my mood is for (beep). I'm struggling. I'm crying in the shower. You know what's going to make me feel better in this moment? Those daffodils on my kitchen table.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. The last one, this is something my great aunt Mae told me to do, Meaghan. She's no longer with us, but it really helped me. I was going through a divorce and I had to do live updates from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. She would tell me no matter what's going on in your head, physically smile, just force a smile.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yep. It's like when people tell you to stand up straight and then suddenly you roll your shoulders back and down. Like smile right now. Everybody listening, just smile. It changes the way you feel. Facial feedback research suggests that there is absolutely this two-way street between your facial expressions and your emotions. And the second you crack that smile, fake it till you make it. It does send signals to your brain. Like, okay, today's not so bad.

Bobbi Rebell:
The crazy thing is, it works. And I say that to my son all the time when he gets frustrated because he's been doing a ton of remote learning. And I don't know if learning should really be in that phrase actually, having been,

Meaghan Murphy:
I hear you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Doing this for over a year. But it's a little bit frustrating for kids. And I think that can really have a really great effect on them as well. All right. I want to do one last money tip, which is just coming from you as a mom. You are still into the coupons.

Meaghan Murphy:
I really am a coupon queen. I miss actually cutting them out of the Sunday circular and going to the shop, right, with my coupons. Ed, my favorite cashier, he's like, where's all your coupons? I don' have the physical paper coupons anymore. Because now everything is an app. But things like RetailMeNot, my grocery store app where I can just scan it and get that bonus. I love saving money so that I could spend it on things I actually might want. I don't need to spend an extra 59 cents on bananas. I would rather put my phone number or my store code and save 30 cents. Because that 30 cents adds up. Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it really does. And that could get you to the fresh flowers that you want. So absolutely. And the truth is, even though there's probably a satisfaction and I remember my mother sitting at the table cutting her coupons, getting ready to go to the store with her box. She had a box and then she would organize which ones she was then going to use that day. And she was aware of the double coupons and the triple coupon days.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
The truth is that even though that tangible experience is gone for most of us, there is still that thrill of seeing the number go down when things are being rung up.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my God. It's so good. Even when I use my Target card and it's like 5% back, and then I get the bill under 200 bucks, I'm like, yes.

Follow Meaghan!

• Instagram - @meaghanbmurphy

• Facebook - @meaghan.b.murphy

• Twitter - @meaghanbmurphy

• Website - https://meaghanbmurphy.com/

• Book - https://meaghanbmurphy.com/book/

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season. And you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Meaghan Murphy:
I got excited about this santa cake and was literally like, oh my God, everyone look at this. And so everyone in line bought one.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money being a grownup is hard, but together, we got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Time to smile my grownup friends. Money may not buy you happiness, but happiness can get you very far when it comes to making money. This week's guest literally leverages her happiness into success. You can't help but love this woman the minute you meet her, even if it is virtual. Meaghan Murphy is the editor in chief of Women's Day, which is the number one selling magazine on news stands. And one of the hosts of the Off the Gram podcast. She is also the author of the new book, Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
If she sounds familiar that's because you see you're on all the morning shows. Plus all those great shows like Live with Kelly & Ryan. She is a home hack master, a lifestyle and health expert. Oh. And she works out like a pro because yes, one more thing. She is a certified trainer. She also has lots of children and a husband and so much going on. But we got her here on the podcast to talk to us about how to put yay into our life. And of course, some incredible money tips. Here is Meaghan Murphy. Meaghan Murphy, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. I love that you're saying yay. That's like your anthem as the author of Your Fully Charged Life: A Radically Simple Approach to Having Endless Energy and Filling Every Day with Yay. A lot of people will look at this book and they'll say like, oh, that's not me. I'm not wired that way. She's so chipper. She just walks around saying, yay. By the way, people can't see you, but you have lightning bolts on your clothing. But honestly, if somebody met you earlier in life, that's not who you were. Give us some context for this because you weren't always the yay person.

Meaghan Murphy:
After some tragic teen years, I did write a very powerful essay that earned me a scholarship and a national TV spot, which ultimately led to an internship at YM Magazine and ultimately springboarded a magazine career. And so in my 20s, when I was working at Cosmopolitan Magazine, I was assigned by my boss to write a story called the seven secrets of happiness. And I completely rolled my eyes because I'm like, who wants to read this crap? But I was the senior editor at Cosmopolitan and this was my assignment when I started to delve into the research and I started to look at the field of positive psychology. And I looked at the work of Martin Seligman who sort of the godfather of positive psychology. And it was the first time that I sort of had this epiphany that happiness wasn't this like bumper sticker, static (beep) thing that you either were or weren't, but it was actually an active state of being, and there were things you can do.

Meaghan Murphy:
There were choices you could make on a daily basis to move the happiness needle. And maybe it might be better and feel better and to live that way. And so I started to dabble in optimism. I started to dabble in living differently. And that's really when the seeds of a fully charged life were planted. And the beautiful thing about prioritizing positivity and sort of actively choosing happiness is that it really started to build and spiral till it becomes easier to do. And it becomes, comes the default, right? And you don't have to work so hard at it. So today, I mean, my friends joke, I'm like a fricking rainbow unicorn. But that's years and years of practice later and kind of rewiring my brain for optimism and joy.

Bobbi Rebell:
That optimism and joy, even though you're not even conscious about it, does translate into so much success in things that are connected to money. So for example, you talk about in the book that you were online at an ice cream store and you were so enthusiastic about a santa cake that you basically became the de facto salesperson for this little ice cream store that was selling ice cream cakes, and you started selling santa cakes for them.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm an evangelist for things I love. If I get excited about something I want everyone else to get excited about. So I probably should have some type of sales career because I would crush it. I got excited about this santa cake and was literally like, oh my God, everyone look at this. And so everyone in line bought one.

Bobbi Rebell:
For any doubters who don't see the connection between happiness, and a positive attitude, and success like, being really good at selling. There it is. There is a connection. Even though it comes so naturally to you Meaghan, that you don't see it. There is a huge connection. Let's get into some of the tips. So the first one that I want to talk about is how to deal with toxic bosses or colleagues?

Meaghan Murphy:
Avoid them as much as possible. Give and requests only much information as needed as to do your job. Keep things professional. Don't get sucked into that. I also say, ignore the bait and bite your tongue instead. I love Terri Cole. She has a new book coming out too called Boundary Boss, but she calls it being unprovokable. And I find being unprovokable and using that word as sort of a mantra, I'm unprovokable, I find it very empowering. So no matter what somebody spews at me, how somebody is trying to drag me down, I just don't fall for the bait. I bite my tongue and I smile and I don't fall for it. And I find it's very gratifying, right, to be unprovokable. I highly recommend that. I also say, always kill them with kindness. I'm always going to be kind. I'm always going to be generous.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm always going to be helpful. And even if there's a little piece of me that dies in the process, I am absolutely going to kill them with kindness. And I find that the haters often come around. And one of my favorite, like sort of Instagram bumper stickers is hustle until the haters ask, if you're hiring. This has happened to me quite often, where I've stayed above the fray. I haven't given them a lot of my brain space, or my energy, or my focus. I've sort of created this force field of positivity against that toxic energy. And eventually they soften up and they suddenly want to be my friend.

Bobbi Rebell:
Absolutely. And the next one actually ties into this very well. It's something you learned from Shonda Rhimes when you edited one of her interviews.

Meaghan Murphy:
I'm obsessed with Shonda. I was the executive editor at Good Housekeeping at the time. And she was like, always have hard conversations ASAP. Don't wait for a good time. Right? We angst about when we're going to have this conversation, because we got to wait for the right time. We've got wait for that right moment. Well, guess what? That right moment never actually happens. And you've wasted energy and bandwidth angsting about when it's going to happen. Do it ASAP. Just have the hard conversation. And I've done that where like, I can feel my palms sweating. I can feel my voice shaking. I'm getting the sweats, but I am absolutely going to pick up the phone or walk into the office and have that really, really difficult conversation without hesitation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So easy to say, so hard to do. But I'm going to work on that. I know I've had a really hard time with that myself. You also say something that a lot of people have said the opposite. So I think our listeners are going to really benefit from hearing about this. You say respond to every email.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's super counterintuitive, right? Because doesn't that seem like a time suck? And I guess I should make the caveat, every email that the person... Like so if it's spam, they've spelled your name wrong, gotten the name of your publication wrong, that can be a delete. But if someone has taken the time to engage with you. If a publicist reaches out to me and say, oh, Meaghan, looks like you had a great time in St. Thomas from your Instagram. I've got this great pitch. I think it could be a fit for this section. They deserve a response. That's a kindness, that's a professional courtesy. And in so many instances where I've responded and said, you know what? This is not a fit for me. I'm going to keep it top of mind. Or I've exchanged some kind of a kindness of like that was a great pitch.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's not right for me. Maybe it's right for so-and-so over here. Did you think about that? I have benefited from those interactions in so many crazy ways where they're like, oh, you know what? You should know this person, or what about this or... Good things come to you when you're a good human being. It's this kindness networking boomerang. And I can't tell you how good it feels to walk through a trade show and be like, oh, that's Meaghan Murphy. She's the best. She always responds to email. She's so courteous and polite. It's a kindness that I will extend to anyone who makes a concerted effort to contact me.

Bobbi Rebell:
And these are people that you're basically saying no to, which is amazing.

Meaghan Murphy:
I kind of think of the world as like a Lite Brite board. Do you remember Lite Brite boards when you were a kid?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Meaghan Murphy:
And the more of those colorful pegs you put into the board, the clearer the picture gets, and eventually you have this bright, vibrant, interesting picture. To me I sort of look like people and connections and ideas as those pegs, those little lights. And the more I put in the board, the clearer the picture becomes, the more it lights up. And so I am never worried that if I introduce you to so-and-so, then somehow there's less work for me. Or if I connect to these two people, I'm going to be boxed out. Absolutely not. I assume that we all have our own secret sauce. We all shine in our own way. And my shine doesn't diminish yours and your shine doesn't diminish mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so important. Because that's something that I have been so relieved about as I've embarked on my own journey, independent from corporate life. I was afraid that people wouldn't want to help me, but it's been just the opposite. I feel like so many people have been so kind and opened up doors. And hopefully I do just as much for other people. Because if you are secure in what you're doing and what you bring to the table, no one else is you. So there's nothing to fear.

Meaghan Murphy:
And here's the deal though. That's hard earned. I'm a 45 year old mother of three. Who's been at this for 25 years. Did I feel that way in my 20s? Probably not so much. Right. I was probably more protective of my ideas, and my successes, and my connections back in the day. I've learned my lesson. Right? I understand that we lift each other up and all the cliches, real queens fix each other's crowns. I do better when I'm lifting others up. And I find it always pays me back in unexpected ways. And so yay.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yay. Absolutely. Okay. I want to whip through a few quick hit, simple things that people can do. And these are examples. There are tons of these in your book. Number one, make your bed.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah. I wrote two pages about it in the book because 82% of people who make their bed feel more productive during the day. And it's a very simple task. That's the whole point of the book. It's a toolkit. And some of the tools are going to work for you and they're going to make you happier, and they're going to make you more productive, and they're going to make you more successful. And you can roll your eyes and not make your bed, but try it. Because 82% of people who do, feel more productive.

Bobbi Rebell:
The second one I want to point out, these are like the quick hits, dopamine dressing. I mean, I literally am wearing a pink scrunchie in my hair right now because it makes me happy.

Meaghan Murphy:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Even though no one else can see it. Dopamine dressing, talk about it.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's dressed the way you want to feel. I studied acting and I talk about it like, my clothes as a costume. Right. If I were going on stage playing a doctor, I'm not wearing a Fireman's uniform. So what's the life you want. We always say dress for the job you want. Dress for the life you want. Are you going to a funeral or a party? What does that look like?

Bobbi Rebell:
The pandemic, when so many of us are working from home, actually in a way gives us permission to really dress the way we want. We don't have to dress in the way that other people do because no one else can see you sometimes.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. This one, this is something my mom, who's no longer with us did in the late stages of her life. And so it really hit home for me. And I know it made her happy, is put fresh flowers in your house. I mean, she started doing a flower delivery where every week they would come. She had her fancy vases and she had a rotation going where they would take the old one and bring it back. And then bring another one back each week. So every day she would get them made in her vase. And it was such an important thing in those last years when she was ill.

Meaghan Murphy:
It's major. And that's the thing, it's not like, oh yeah, buying your flowers is nice, or it's frivolous, or... There's so much great research. There's great Harvard research that says, fresh flowers in your house actually have the power to ease anxiety, to boost your mood. So why not do that? And I joke about this. During the pandemic, I took a pair of scissors when you couldn't get flowers anywhere. And it was full lockdown mode. And I walked over the park and I cut some daffodils because I was like, my mood is for (beep). I'm struggling. I'm crying in the shower. You know what's going to make me feel better in this moment? Those daffodils on my kitchen table.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. The last one, this is something my great aunt Mae told me to do, Meaghan. She's no longer with us, but it really helped me. I was going through a divorce and I had to do live updates from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. She would tell me no matter what's going on in your head, physically smile, just force a smile.

Meaghan Murphy:
Yep. It's like when people tell you to stand up straight and then suddenly you roll your shoulders back and down. Like smile right now. Everybody listening, just smile. It changes the way you feel. Facial feedback research suggests that there is absolutely this two-way street between your facial expressions and your emotions. And the second you crack that smile, fake it till you make it. It does send signals to your brain. Like, okay, today's not so bad.

Bobbi Rebell:
The crazy thing is, it works. And I say that to my son all the time when he gets frustrated because he's been doing a ton of remote learning. And I don't know if learning should really be in that phrase actually, having been,

Meaghan Murphy:
I hear you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Doing this for over a year. But it's a little bit frustrating for kids. And I think that can really have a really great effect on them as well. All right. I want to do one last money tip, which is just coming from you as a mom. You are still into the coupons.

Meaghan Murphy:
I really am a coupon queen. I miss actually cutting them out of the Sunday circular and going to the shop, right, with my coupons. Ed, my favorite cashier, he's like, where's all your coupons? I don' have the physical paper coupons anymore. Because now everything is an app. But things like RetailMeNot, my grocery store app where I can just scan it and get that bonus. I love saving money so that I could spend it on things I actually might want. I don't need to spend an extra 59 cents on bananas. I would rather put my phone number or my store code and save 30 cents. Because that 30 cents adds up. Right.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it really does. And that could get you to the fresh flowers that you want. So absolutely. And the truth is, even though there's probably a satisfaction and I remember my mother sitting at the table cutting her coupons, getting ready to go to the store with her box. She had a box and then she would organize which ones she was then going to use that day. And she was aware of the double coupons and the triple coupon days.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh, yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
The truth is that even though that tangible experience is gone for most of us, there is still that thrill of seeing the number go down when things are being rung up.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my God. It's so good. Even when I use my Target card and it's like 5% back, and then I get the bill under 200 bucks, I'm like, yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell us more about where people can reach you and your podcast and all your other projects.

Meaghan Murphy:
Sure. So I am on Instagram. I'm pretty busy. Meghan B Murphy, M-E-A-G-H-A-N, B Murphy. I have a podcast called Off the Gram with a bunch of wellness influencers. That's wherever podcasts are not sold, but listened to, I guess. And I'm also the editor in chief of Woman's Day Magazine. So it's a top selling magazine on newsstands. I think we have 18 million readers. So that's a pretty fun thing to pick up too.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. That's kind of huge. But yeah, most people would lead with that one, but you have so much going on. I can't thank you enough for stopping by. This is such a gift to our listeners. So thank you so much, Meaghan.

Meaghan Murphy:
Oh my gosh. I so enjoyed you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm grateful.

Bobbi Rebell:
Good stuff, right? She was great. Let's go over some of the tips that we learned from Meaghan. First, be an evangelist for things you love. They will literally sell themselves. If you have a toxic boss at work, do not fall for the bait. Be generous with introductions. Don't worry that there will be less for you. Things work out for those who give proactively and generously. And of course, yay for coupons.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. So now I have a question for all of you. What are you happy about these days? What are you celebrating? I am looking forward to a lot of in-person get togethers as things open up. And I'm always looking for the perfect gift, which is one reason I created grownupgear.com. So if you haven't checked it out yet, please take a look. We have the perfect gift for all of those adulting moments that we celebrate from graduations to engagements, bridal showers, new homes, birthdays, all the good things.

Bobbi Rebell:
As a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 gift card to Grownup Gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. Can also think of it as financial independence day if that motivates you. There are two ways to enter, take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media and tag me @bobbirebell1. That's on Instagram, I should say. And then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review on the Money Tips for Financial Grownups Podcast on Apple podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. Grownup Gear is what I like to call a micro business and we really do need and appreciate all of your support. So please check it out and tell your friends. And thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note. I hope you guys smiled a lot listening to this episode. I loved interviewing Meaghan. She's the best. So big thanks to Meaghan Murphy. Don't forget to check out her book for cheering us all on and yay for all of you financial grownups. Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram. And Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my money tips for grownups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merchant shop grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Flame Newton is turning his criminal past success in identity theft to educate and empower others. The author and credit expert shares his money tips on credit cards, protecting your identity and much more to help us all be financial grownups.

Flame’s Money Story

Aw man. I always take a deep breath before I do that, because anytime I get into this area, I like to make sure it's detailed. I like to make sure that you understand it and it's clear. That I misinterpret nothing that I've said or going to say, or getting ready to say. And that was, I was the bad guy, right? I went to jail for murder and I went to jail for bank robbery. Right. That's what I went to jail for. What I did was I rob people and I killed them while they were still living. And they have a term for it and have a word for it. That word is called identity thief. I went to prison for a very long time based upon that, right? Because I did something in the eyes of the government they never seen, heard, or even done before.

Flame Newton:
And I know you got all misjudgments about me right now, as you listening to this. But I like to make sure that you hear it right out of the horse's mouth, as they say. What I did was wrong, wrong to the utmost. But when the government said I did was I only stole people identities that had a 600 credit score or below. So not the 700 or higher that everyone was so in love with. What I did was, is I was able to clean their credit up and then attach it to a business to go get money from. Now, although that my method was wrong, the process wasn't. And so I ended up going to prison. And while I was there, there were guys that was there and they was always talking to me. And they would say the same thing like you was talking about earlier Bobbi. You know what they would say to me? Man, I sure wish they would've taught me credit in school.

Flame Newton:
That got me to thinking. A lot of these people that are in prison contrary to your belief, are there for monetary value. And what does that mean? The reason that they was there was for something pertaining to money and you can say, well, he killed him. He killed him because he was trying to get some money. Somebody owed him some money, some type of relevance to it. He there for robbery. Robbing somebody to get some money. Say he there for drugs. Selling drugs to get some money. And you start to add these things up. What they don't know is pretty much what we talked about earlier. The fact that stuff was not talked about in heavily populated areas. And so being understand of that magnitude, I'm able to teach.

Flame Newton:
And one of the biggest compliments that I've ever getting is when a kid had asked me one time, I'm sitting in prison and he asked me, he said, Flame, could you read this to me? Read. And the word was tomorrow. Couldn't believe it. See things that we take for granted, these things really weigh down on other people like, reading.

Flame Newton:
Now, although that he could tell you about 28 grams is 28 grams. And understanding the ounces and because he's dealing with drugs all day. And he learned the numbers in that magnitude, even count money all day long pertaining to it. But he didn't know the magnitude of things like reading. And I said, what if you read something that you like? And so when we get into these type of components pertaining to it, I'm understanding, and I make sure that on every single platform that I've ever been on, will never be one that I would never say the words that I'm apologetic on all get up for every single thing and every victim that I've ever affected. I make sure of that. I don't hesitate that. But with that being said, along this life, we have journeys and this was just one of mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you actually go to jail for?

Flame Newton:
I went to jail for identity theft, money laundering, and bank fraud. So what I did was I took people’s identity, attach it to a business and went in and got a lot of money from it. What I was doing was cleaning up the negative items to make them appear as more trustworthy than they actually were, getting the banks to give out money to that particular person. That was when I would go get the money and take off in that manner. Money that they didn't even know that it existed from the people that I took the identities from.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow, that's really scary.

Flame Newton:
Over 75% of the American public, that once they fall in debt, they go back into debt within the two to three year window. Why? Because they have not been educated about it. So the more that they can get educated about something pertaining to what fuel, I'm just talking about credit.

Flame’s Money Lesson

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you actually go to jail for?

Flame Newton:
I went to jail for identity theft, money laundering, and bank fraud. So what I did was I took people, identity, attach it to a business and went in and got a lot of money from it. What I was doing was cleaning up the negative items to make them appear as more trustworthy than they actually were, getting the banks to give out money to that particular person. That was when I would go get the money and take off in that manner. Money that they didn't even know that it existed from the people that I took the identities from.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow, that's really scary.

Flame Newton:
Over 75% of the American public, that once they fall in debt, they go back into debt within the two to three year window. Why? Because they have not been educated about it. So the more that they can get educated about something pertaining to what fuel, I'm just talking about credit.

Flame’s Money Tip

Flame Newton:
And the tip that I'm going to give you for this is watch this. You pull out your credit card right now. I need everybody to pull out your credit card. If you driving just keep driving, don't do it while you driving. But right now I want you to pull out your credit card. If the front doesn't match the back, that card is whack. If the front says Chase, the back of your card must say Chase. But if the front of your card, now I love Victoria Secret. Victoria Secret, we love you too. But if your front of your card says, Victoria Secret and the back of your card says Synchrony Bank, that's not a great quality credit card. You like bank issued credit cards.

Bobbi Rebell:
Why? Tell us why.

Flame Newton:
Because That is a quality lender. And a quality lender meaning that that point, that bank have gave you money. They didn't give you goods or services for money. I like to explain it in this way. Like Home Depot. Home Depot has a great company. I love Home Depot to death. But if Home Depot gives you let's say, a $2,000 line of credit and you go buy refrigerator for a $1,000. If you buy a refrigerator for a $1,000, that refrigerator might've cost Home Depot $200. So if it cost Home Depot $200, that means you paid one fifth of the price of that. So if you didn't pay back Home Depot that thousand, lets say you didn't pay them back. What was the loss to Home Depot? Was the loss $1,000 or was it $200? The bank issue is going to lose more so the risk is going to be higher, which makes it a more quality card.

Follow Flame!

• Instagram - @flamenewton

• Facebook - @followflame1127

• Flame’s website - http://flamenewton.com

• Flame’s Book - The School of Credit

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
I hope you guys are all celebrating some big adulting milestones this season, and you know what? Finding the perfect gift for those celebrations can be kind of tough. I have the solution over at grownupgear.com. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, teas, and seriously, the most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts. They're all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. We even now have digital gift certificates if you can't decide. Use code grownup for 15% off your first order. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast. And you know what? We really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Flame Newton:
You know what they would say to me? Man, I sure wish they would've taught me credit in school. And that got me to thinking. A lot of these people that are in prison contrary to your belief, are there for monetary value. And what does that mean? The reason that they was there was for something pertaining to money. And you can say, well, he killed him. He killed him because he was trying to get some money. Somebody owed him some money, some type of relevance to it. He there for robbery, robbing somebody to get some money. Say he there for drugs, he selling drugs to get some money.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being grown up is hard, but together we got this. Hey friends, this is going to be a very different and a very important episode. Normally we talk a lot about things like staying out of debt, and financial literacy, and the consequences of not doing those things of not knowing what's going on with your money. But what about financial literacy to stay out of prison, to not commit crimes? That is what my guest Flame Newton wanted to talk about. He spent about a decade of his life serving time for identity theft. And head a lot from fellow prisoners about why they were there. And in almost every case, Flame says the crime was tied to money in some way. It brings the importance of financial literacy to a whole new level.

Bobbi Rebell:
This man has a lot to say that makes sense, but you have to pay close attention. So this is an episode you really want to be present for. I hope all of you get as much out of this interview as I did. It is really, really good. Here is school of credits, Flame Newton. Flame Newton, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Flame Newton:
Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you for being here. And by the way, we connected on Clubhouse. So you're my first Clubhouse find. So I'm so excited because you have the most amazing backstory and you have incredible advice. I do a little homework on my guests Flame, and this was on your Facebook page and it's very appropriate to our grownup audience. You say the phrase I get tired of hearing is, "They didn't teach us this when we were growing up. News flash, you grown up now. So you better learn it. Or this thing called life will teach you." Tell me more about that and your general philosophy. And then we're going to get into more about you.

Flame Newton:
Wow, Bobbi. One thing that I can say pertaining to that, we listened to a lot of people in a different manner of ways. And one of the ways that as a collective group of individuals, they coming together and they always have this quite saying. And that saying is, man, they didn't teach me this when I grew up. Right? And so all of these things amongst that, or my parents didn't teach me this. And they'll say all of these different things, but what we must know and what we must understand is that at this point, this world is not the world that we had it when we grew up. It's not. And that's something that we have to come to grips on, is the fact that now we in a position now to creatively get information from all walks of life.

Flame Newton:
I mean, even think about our children now, right? And our children, they have friends all over this globe. All right. And it's all based upon the technology that we have in advance. So pertaining to just utilizing the school system, getting the school system to teach us things. Right. Or even passing judgment down to our parents who actually never taught as well. And when you start to base it upon that, now you start to say, you know what? Now it's up to me. Why? Because now I'm kind of adapted to what my children are doing. What is that? I'm adapted to the globe because they have this thing and it starts with www. And when you say www, let's let it be understood and what it is. It's called the world wide web, right? The first word tells you everything, the world. And so you can get different perspectives pertaining to the information that you don't know from people that are all over the globe, all over America.

Flame Newton:
So if you're looking for information pertaining to something that can make you better, you have these places. And they're a lot of free places. And we can talk about them. Places like Google. And I understand Google have a lot of bad information and misinformation, but there's also some good ones there too. So let's not discredit those. They also have places like YouTube, even the social media networks like Facebook, or even going down to where you got me at, which was Clubhouse, right? And a collective group of these places that have pertaining to a lot of this information, we just have to buckle down and get it into a point to where we got to find out what matters to us most. What we're going to quit doing, is we're going to quit making up excuses and bringing up the past as a reason for why we're not moving towards the future.

Bobbi Rebell:
I totally agree. Could not agree more. And we could talk about this all day, but I want our listeners to learn more about you and your backstory. Because you are highly intelligent and you are a student for sure. And unfortunately earlier in your life, you use that for some, well, some things you went to prison for. Tell us more about that.

Flame Newton:
Aw man. I always take a deep breath before I do that, because anytime I get into this area, I like to make sure it's detailed. I like to make sure that you understand it and it's clear. That I misinterpret nothing that I've said or going to say, or getting ready to say. And that was, I was the bad guy, right? I went to jail for murder and I went to jail for bank robbery. Right. That's what I went to jail for. What I did was I rob people and I killed them while they were still living. And they have a term for it and have a word for it. That word is called identity thief. I went to prison for a very long time based upon that, right? Because I did something in the eyes of the government they never seen, heard, or even done before.

Flame Newton:
And I know you got all misjudgments about me right now, as you listening to this. But I like to make sure that you hear it right out of the horse's mouth, as they say. What I did was wrong, wrong to the utmost. But when the government said I did was I only stole people identities that had a 600 credit score or below. So not the 700 or higher that everyone was so in love with. What I did was, is I was able to clean their credit up and then attach it to a business to go get money from. Now, although that my method was wrong, the process wasn't. And so I ended up going to prison. And while I was there, there were guys that was there and they was always talking to me. And they would say the same thing like you was talking about earlier Bobbi. You know what they would say to me? Man, I sure wish they would've taught me credit in school.

Flame Newton:
That got me to thinking. A lot of these people that are in prison contrary to your belief, are there for monetary value. And what does that mean? The reason that they was there was for something pertaining to money and you can say, well, he killed him. He killed him because he was trying to get some money. Somebody owed him some money, some type of relevance to it. He there for robbery. Robbing somebody to get some money. Say he there for drugs. Selling drugs to get some money. And you start to add these things up. What they don't know is pretty much what we talked about earlier. The fact that stuff was not talked about in heavily populated areas. And so being understand of that magnitude, I'm able to teach.

Flame Newton:
And one of the biggest compliments that I've ever getting is when a kid had asked me one time, I'm sitting in prison and he asked me, he said, Flame, could you read this to me? Read. And the word was tomorrow. Couldn't believe it. See things that we take for granted, these things really weigh down on other people like, reading.

Flame Newton:
Now, although that he could tell you about 28 grams is 28 grams. And understanding the ounces and because he's dealing with drugs all day. And he learned the numbers in that magnitude, even count money all day long pertaining to it. But he didn't know the magnitude of things like reading. And I said, what if you read something that you like? And so when we get into these type of components pertaining to it, I'm understanding, and I make sure that on every single platform that I've ever been on, will never be one that I would never say the words that I'm apologetic on all get up for every single thing and every victim that I've ever affected. I make sure of that. I don't hesitate that. But with that being said, along this life, we have journeys and this was just one of mine.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you actually go to jail for?

Flame Newton:
I went to jail for identity theft, money laundering, and bank fraud. So what I did was I took people, identity, attach it to a business and went in and got a lot of money from it. What I was doing was cleaning up the negative items to make them appear as more trustworthy than they actually were, getting the banks to give out money to that particular person. That was when I would go get the money and take off in that manner. Money that they didn't even know that it existed from the people that I took the identities from.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow, that's really scary.

Flame Newton:
Over 75% of the American public, that once they fall in debt, they go back into debt within the two to three year window. Why? Because they have not been educated about it. So the more that they can get educated about something pertaining to what fuel, I'm just talking about credit.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is one thing people can look at and boost that score?

Flame Newton:
It's not your score. So let's leave that right there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh okay.

Flame Newton:
And I'm going to come back. I got you Bobbi. Watch this. Watch this Bobbi. I got you. I want you to be concerned with the contents which is on your credit profile. Again, the items that are on your credit profile, I want you to take heed to those items that are there, understanding that they have these things call quality lenders. Right. Quality lenders. These lenders are considered measurements. They're considered the high's to the high. Now the Bank of America's, the Wells Fargo's, the Chase's, Capital One's, the Cities, Barclays, even the US banks. You have some of those quality lenders that are on your profile.

Flame Newton:
And the tip that I'm going to give you for this is watch this. You pull out your credit card right now. I need everybody to pull out your credit card. If you driving just keep driving, don't do it while you driving. But right now I want you to pull out your credit card. If the front doesn't match the back, that card is whack. If the front says Chase, the back of your card must say Chase. But if the front of your card, now I love Victoria Secret. Victoria Secret, we love you too. But if your front of your card says, Victoria Secret and the back of your card says Synchrony Bank, that's not a great quality credit card. You like bank issued credit cards.

Bobbi Rebell:
Why? Tell us why.

Flame Newton:
Because That is a quality lender. And a quality lender meaning that that point, that bank have gave you money. They didn't give you goods or services for money. I like to explain it in this way. Like Home Depot. Home Depot has a great company. I love Home Depot to death. But if Home Depot gives you let's say, a $2,000 line of credit and you go buy refrigerator for a $1,000. If you buy a refrigerator for a $1,000, that refrigerator might've cost Home Depot $200. So if it cost Home Depot $200, that means you paid one fifth of the price of that. So if you didn't pay back Home Depot that thousand, lets say you didn't pay them back. What was the loss to Home Depot? Was the loss $1,000 or was it $200? The bank issue is going to lose more so the risk is going to be higher, which makes it a more quality card. That make any sense?

Bobbi Rebell:
It makes total sense. And I have never seen that argument frame that way and I'm processing it. And I'm going to keep thinking about it because you make a really interesting point. I want to get to where people can find you. I know you have a lot of amazing resources. I can't believe you created this in only a little over a year since you've been out. But tell us more about where people can find you and how they can learn from all that you have to offer?

Flame Newton:
Great. I appreciate it. One is I have a book which is called The School of Credit: Learn and Mastered the 12 Levels of the American Credit System, which is on Amazon. Definitely, that is something that I want you to go tap into. It's a great foundation. This is one of the books that goes down with the greats. When I'm saying greats, I'm saying the greatest books of all times, such as the Webster's dictionary, such as the encyclopedias, and those sort of ordeal. So it's in a different caliber. Also, you can find me, you can reach out to me at flame@flamenewton.com. Again, that is flame@flamenewton.com. I'm always on Clubhouse. You can find me on social media sites. I been away from Instagram. I'm starting to get over there now. Also, Facebook, all under Flame Newton. And other than that, man, listen, when you see me, man, I stop, I talk, I laugh. We joke. We kick it. We have fun. This a good time. You know what I mean? Or if not, we're going to figure out how to make it a good time. Other than that, appreciate that Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. And people want to know Flame, your real name?

Flame Newton:
Flame Newton.

Bobbi Rebell:
Given by your mother. Really? That's amazing. Love it. All right. Thank you so much.

Flame Newton:
I mean, I appreciate you having me on this podcast. I'm excited for the people that are just getting started on their credit journey. I'm appreciative of people that are trying to overcome something and don't feel like they can overcome it. I'm excited for you by Bobbi and the podcast, to see which direction that it's going to grow. I do appreciate you. And I thank you. And I'm humbled on all levels.

Bobbi Rebell:
There's a lot here, but here's some things that stood out to me. Stop making excuses and saying, so-and-so, didn't teach you. Well, if you're a grown up, go out and educate yourself. In the past, you could say you didn't have access to information. Well now, as Flame points out, we do have information. We have the internet. You have to be careful. There is misinformation out there, but you can, and you need to get educated and take responsibility for it yourself. Flame also doesn't like store credit cards. Well, the basic premise is that they have less to lose if you default. His feeling, is that their validation of your credit worthiness may not have the same high bar as a bank credit card. It's an interesting theory and something we should think about. Flame also warrants that the majority of people are repeat offenders when it comes to getting into debt. So if that is you, stop the cycle.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing you should definitely not do is go into debt buying presents for friends and loved ones this season. There's a lot of celebrations coming up. I get it. But please check out the affordable gifts on my website, grownupgear.com. And as a special promotion, we are going to give away one $50 credit card to grown up gear each week until July 4th, which is Independence Day. And maybe we can also call it financial independence day. There are two ways to enter to win. Take a screenshot of this podcast, post it on social media, Instagram specifically. And tag me @bobbirebell1. And then also email that screenshot to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. The second way to enter is to write a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot and send it to us at hello@financialgrownup.com. Big thanks to Flame Newton for sharing so generously with us and helping us all be financial grownups

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Well. You can find the podcast show notes, which includes links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my money tips for grown-ups club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

Rachel Rodgers is back! She has a new book "We Should All Be Millionaires" plus why broken kitchen cabinets drive her nuts and why she is throwing out her “shitty bras”. Rachel also updates us on the Rodgers Ranch and her company Hello Seven.

Rachel’s Tips

Tip #1- We have this thing where we want to be liked. Every human wants to be liked, this is not unique to women, but our culture has created this situation where women think they need to be nice and they need to be liked by all. Let me tell you something, that is a losing game. That desire to be liked really kills your ability to generate more money. I think, we think like, "Oh, if I make a bunch of money, people are not going to like me." You know what? People already don't like you, so who cares? Might as well make some money.

Tip #2- It's just little things like that, where we have shabby conditions around us that make us feel shabby inside. When you wake up and your environment tells you, "You know what? You must be a boss because look at this environment that you're in," guess what? You're going to go out there and you're going to make million-dollar decisions all day, every day. It really shifts your energy when you are in an environment that makes you feel really good.

Tip #3-Are you surrounding yourself with people who make broke decisions all day? Is your best girlfriend, Brenda, calling you to complain about her job every day, but never does anything to go get a better job or talk to her boss about it or deal with her situation? Or are you surrounded by people who when you say, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this exciting thing. Hey, I'm thinking about buying a house. Hey, I'm thinking about making this money move," they're like, "Ooh, I wouldn't do that," and discouraging you and being very negative about it and making you feel bad about being ambitious? When you have those kinds of people around you all day, trust me, it is affecting your ability to make million-dollar decisions. This is literally nonstop. This is exactly how it works, and there's science to back it up. Harvard studies, where it shows that the people that you spend the most time with, 95% of your success or failure in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish comes from the people you surround yourself with on a daily basis. If you are surrounding yourself with naysayers, people who are negative, people who are not ambitious at all, people who are discouraging, you are going to be discouraged and you're likely not going to make the moves that you want to be making.

Tip #4- Okay, a lot of times we say, "Well, I really want to upgrade my home, but I don't have enough money." One of the sections of the book, what we talk about is can we flip that but to an and? Can we say instead of, "I want to do this thing, but I can't afford it," what if you said, "I want to do this thing and I don't currently have the money." Cool, now that opens up possibilities. It makes you feel like, "Oh, okay. These are the facts of the case. I want to do this thing and I don't have the money right now, but what could I do to change the situation?" I could potentially change it. It creates opportunity. It opens it up, it expands the possibilities. Whereas when you say, "But," it's kind of like it closes the door on that being a possibility, it closes the door on that opportunity. I encourage you to be and people instead of but people. This goes to the peer group. Are you surrounded by people who can say, "Yes, that's true, and what could you do differently? Let's brainstorm some opportunities." Imagine if we had friends who would brainstorm business opportunities, money-making opportunities, networking opportunities with us, instead of talking about everything that's wrong with the world and just complaining all the time and commiserating. We could do that too, but let's make sure that we are also being expansive. If you change your but to and, that might open up some creativity for you to come up with solutions to the financial problems that come up.

Follow Rachel!

• Instagram - @hello7co

• Instagram - @therodgersranch

• Instagram - @rachrodgersesq

• Facebook - @Hello7Co

• Facebook - @rachelrodgerslaw

• Twitter - @rachrodgersesq

• Rachel’s website - www.helloseven.co

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

It is officially spring, and that means graduation season is on. We here at the Financial Grownup Podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and the seriously most cozy and comfortable sweatshirts, all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup Gear also makes great gifts for Mother's Day, Father's Day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette parties, birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code GRADUATION for a 15% discount, and thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and we truly appreciate your support.

Rachel Rodgers :

We did a 10K in 10 Days challenge with 350 of our clients. The average was like $6,700 per person, and they, as a group, made $2.4 million in 10 days.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? When it comes to money, being a grown up is hard, but together, we've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes, my friends, $10,000 in 10 days, do you dare take the challenge? You want to hear about it though, right? Rachel Rodgers is back and the perfect guest for our newly updated format here on Money Tips for Financial Grownups. If you missed the bonus episode, it should be just before this one in your feed, but in short, we're streamlining the show to focus more on money tips to help us all be our best financial grownups. I lost count of all the incredible money tips that Rachel shares in our interview, but you're going to hear ... sound every time she drops one.

Bobbi Rebell:

Rachel, who is the CEO of HelloSeven and runs the Rodgers' Ranch, which you're going to hear about in our interview, has a new book out called We Should All be Millionaires. I read it cover to cover in one sitting and you should too, then you should also go back and make note of all the gems in the book. But first, let's get some extra money tips in our interview. Here is Rachel Rodgers.

Bobbi Rebell:

Rachel Rodgers, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast again, welcome back.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yay, I'm so glad to be back. I'm excited.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, we're celebrating because your book, We Should All be Billionaires: A Woman's Guide to Earning More, Building Wealth, and Gaining Economic Power, is released today, the day that this episode is coming out. Tell us high level about the book and what we can expect.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Well, you can expect some tough love and you can expect a guide to becoming a millionaire, making a million dollars. I think we need that. We shoot for six figures and it's not enough, I don't know if you've noticed. You probably have, because you're a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I live in New York City.

Rachel Rodgers :

Exactly, but I want women to be shooting for seven figures so that we can really make a massive impact. The reality is that 2% of women entrepreneurs ever hit the seven-figure mark, and when it comes to the world's billionaires, very, very few of them are women. I think we need to understand how to earn more, and that's what this book is about. It's not about what to put in your 401k or how to invest, what to do with your money on the backend. No, it's about how to get more of it in the first place.

Bobbi Rebell:

You challenge your clients to come up with a way to make $10,000 in 10 days. Let's just start with the results, and then tell me some of the ways that you could make $10,000 in 10 days.

Rachel Rodgers :

We did a 10K in 10 Days challenge with 350 of our clients, and they, as a group, made $2.4 million in 10 days.

Bobbi Rebell:

What was the average?

Rachel Rodgers :

The average was like $6,700 per person, approximately.

Bobbi Rebell:

Which is incredible.

Rachel Rodgers :

I mean, incredible, right? To me, it's not about the money. It's about the fact that what I'm trying to prove and what I want women to be able to prove to themselves is that you can earn as much as you want, whenever you want. You have the ability to generate cash whenever you need to. I think we have a money problem come up and we're like, "I don't know what I'm going to do. Let me start cutting things and slashing things. Let me start shrinking my life," and I'm like, "I do the opposite." If something comes up and I want to spend money on something, I'm like, "Okay, well, let me think about what are my different ways of earning more and which one am I going to choose? Okay, great. I'm going to choose that one, let me put it out there," and then I earn that money in 30 days or less and then I go do that thing I wanted to do.

Bobbi Rebell:

What are some of the best ways people came up with to earn money?

Rachel Rodgers :

Oh, it was amazing. There were people having yard sales, people were just reaching out to past clients who owed them money and they just hadn't reached out to them and said, "Hey, you owe me money. Hey, you hadn't paid your invoice, can you go ahead and take care of that?" They made all this money from clients that were like six months late, just because they weren't following up. I'm like, "Honey, we need to focus on our money and not let all of those dollars trickle out of our hands." That's what I see happening with women as a whole, and so I'm asking us to hold ourselves accountable to really pay attention to our money.

Rachel Rodgers :

That was some of the things that they did. They launched new programs, they created products. They had ideas for all these different ways that they could make money or they thought like, "Oh, one day maybe I'll do X," and I'm like, "I challenge you to go do X right now," and they would do it. They would launch a new program or launch a product and put it out there. They didn't even have to create the product or the program yet, they could just say, "Hey, this is coming. Would you like one? If you purchase it early, here's what happens. You have 10 days to say, yes, you want it," they buy it and then you have a little bit of time to go create the thing and deliver it.

Bobbi Rebell:

And it's also a proven idea. One of my favorite parts of the book, you say you have three ways that women make bad money decisions. What are the three ways that women make bad money decisions?

Rachel Rodgers :

Well, we have this thing where we want to be liked, it's like every human wants to be liked, this is not unique to women, but our culture has created this situation where women think they need to be nice and they need to be liked by all. Let me tell you something, that is a losing game. That desire to be liked really kills your ability to generate more money. I think, we think like, "Oh, if I make a bunch of money, people are not going to like me." You know what? People already don't like you, so who cares? Might as well make some money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Absolutely. Okay, number two, what was the second thing?

Rachel Rodgers :

Environment. We're in this broke (beep) environment. We have (beep) bras. I literally just bought 12 new bras because we've been in a pandemic and every bra has a busted strap, the wire is broken. I was like, "Honey, get your life together." It was just things like that. One of my clients used to have a cabinet in her kitchen that would not open all the way, and because of that, she had a small little kitchen and so it was all shoved into the other cabinets. Every time she opened her cabinets, all this (beep) falling out. She was just like, "This drives me nuts literally all day, every day," every time she's making coffee, every time she's preparing a meal.

Rachel Rodgers :

It's just little things like that, where we have shabby conditions around us that make us feel shabby inside. When you wake up and your environment tells you, "You know what? You must be a boss because look at this environment that you're in," guess what? You're going to go out there and you're going to make million-dollar decisions all day, every day. It really shifts your energy when you are in an environment that makes you feel really good.

Bobbi Rebell:

And then the third one has to do with who we surround ourselves with, right?

Rachel Rodgers :

Exactly. Are you surrounding yourself with people who make broke (beep) decisions all day? Is your best girlfriend, Brenda, calling you to complain about her job every day, but never does anything to go get a better job or talk to her boss about it or deal with her situation? Or are you surrounded by people who when you say, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this exciting thing. Hey, I'm thinking about buying a house. Hey, I'm thinking about making this money move," they're like, "Ooh, I wouldn't do that," and discouraging you and being very negative about it and making you feel bad about being ambitious? When you have those kinds of people around you all day, trust me, it is affecting your ability to make million-dollar decisions.

Rachel Rodgers :

This is literally nonstop. This is exactly how it works, and there's science to back it up. Harvard studies, where it shows that the people that you spend the most time with, 95% of your success or failure in whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish comes from the people you surround yourself with on a daily basis. If you are surrounding yourself with naysayers, people who are negative, people who are not ambitious at all, people who are discouraging, you are going to be discouraged and you're likely not going to make the moves that you want to be making.

Bobbi Rebell:

Another money tip in the book that I love has to do with flipping just one word. Tell us about that.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Okay, a lot of times we say, "Well, I really want to upgrade my home, but I don't have enough money." One of the sections of the book, what we talk about is can we flip that but to an and? Can we say instead of, "I want to do this thing, but I can't afford it," what if you said, "I want to do this thing and I don't currently have the money." Cool, now that opens up possibilities. It makes you feel like, "Oh, okay. These are the facts of the case. I want to do this thing and I don't have the money right now, but what could I do to change the situation?" I could potentially change it. It creates opportunity. It opens it up, it expands the possibilities. Whereas when you say, "But," it's kind of like it closes the door on that being a possibility, it closes the door on that opportunity. I encourage you to be and people instead of but people.

Rachel Rodgers :

This goes to the peer group. Are you surrounded by people who can say, "Yes, that's true, and what could you do differently? Let's brainstorm some opportunities." Imagine if we had friends who would brainstorm business opportunities, money-making opportunities, networking opportunities with us, instead of talking about everything that's wrong with the world and just complaining all the time and commiserating. We could do that too, but let's make sure that we are also being expansive. If you change your but to and, that might open up some creativity for you to come up with solutions to the financial problems that come up.

Bobbi Rebell:

Changing the way that you frame how you see things, so important. You also talk about taking certain tests to figure out basically where your talent is, where you're most likely to be the most successful.

Rachel Rodgers :

One of the things that we recommend is that we do an assessment, a skills assessment, to see what skills have I acquired over the years, what are my natural talents and gifts and strengths, what am I naturally good at, what do people come to me all the time to ask me for, where you can start to really hone in on the way that you add value in the world and then how can you capitalize on that skill, how can you start charging for that service, or how can you create a product based on that skillset that can increase your earning potential.

Bobbi Rebell:

And there are specific tests you recommend.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes, exactly. You can take StrengthsFinders, Kolbe, DiSC. There's also a great book called The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. Each one of these will help you assess for yourself where your natural talents and skills lie, and so you can figure out where is my money-making potential.

Bobbi Rebell:

You were waiting for a client's check.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you needed that money. It's very relatable in the last year, because we all learned how important having that cash cushion, whether you label it as an emergency fund or just savings, whatever it may be, you were in a precarious position waiting on money to come in. Tell us what you needed the money for, what was going on, and how it was resolved.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. This was years ago, I was probably two years into building my business. I was pregnant with my son, my daughter was one years old. I was trying to put her in daycare. I was working from home, my husband was in school at the time. My child had been home with us for a full year, there was zero childcare. My child was with her father or me or both of us for the whole first year of her life. I'm trying to grow a law practice, so I needed childcare, and searched for the right childcare, found a great place and her spot came up on the wait list. I'm like, "Great." Now, I'm waiting for this corporate check to come from a client. This was one of my first corporate clients and it was a big check for $5,000, which was the most money that I had ever received at one time in my life at the time.

Rachel Rodgers :

I'm waiting for months for this check to come, because we all know corporations, sometimes it's like net 30. I mean, they just pay you when they feel like it, basically. Three, four months later, finally the check shows up, I go to the bank to deposit, I'm like, "Thank God, I'm going to deposit this check and then immediately write a check for the daycare and go drop that off so that I can hold her spot," because it was like the last day to reserve her spot. I get to the bank, I deposit it, I'm all giddy and excited. I mean, I'm in my sweats, looking like crap, but who cares, I got money so I'm happy. I go to deposit it and the bank teller says, "Great, that'll be a two-week hold," and I'm like, "Pardon me? What?" I'm whispering to her because I don't want the other people in the bank to hear me and I'm like, "Is there any way you can make that available like today?" and she's like, "Nope, I can't because it's an out-of-state check."

Rachel Rodgers :

She sent me to go talk to the branch manager. I go talk to the branch manager, who's an older white guy. Here I am in my sweats looking like a broke (beep) college student and not a trustworthy professional. I go and talk to him and tell him I need the money right away. My face is getting red and I'm just absolutely mortified to be an attorney who has to go beg the branch manager to make her money available right away. It was a good wake up call. I was watching the branch manager and another banker looking at their monitor, I could tell they're scrolling through my account, looking at all my purchases. I'm sitting there and I'm feeling the hot tears come, my face is all red. As I sat there, I just had this moment where I was like, "Never again. This is my fault that I'm here right now and it will never, ever happen again."

Rachel Rodgers :

Luckily, they did release the check, I was able to put my daughter in childcare. That year I took that business from $60,000 a year to $300,000, so 5X'd my revenue, because I got focused because I realized the money was on me. Somebody else isn't going to make that money for me, it's not going to manifest out of thin air, and it's nobody's fault necessarily. Yes, there are systemic things at play. There is racism and sexism at play for sure, and at the same time, I also have a choice in the matter and there's also decisions that I'm making on a daily basis. I held myself to being a financial grownup, and that year, I really grew up and made a lot more money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Just one of the many, many incredible and inspiring stories in your new book. Tell us, we know the book is available everywhere, what else should people be looking out for from you? I know you have a course associated with the book and a lot more going on at the Rodgers' Ranch and so on. Tell us.

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. Lord, I seem to have way too much going on. We have a podcast called the HelloSeven Podcast. We're always interviewing women, definitely women of color, who are making seven figures or more, because again, I like to provide my clients with evidence.

Bobbi Rebell:

And the Rodgers' Ranch, what's going on there?

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes, we have been fixing it up. It's so funny, my children are right outside my window. My little cottage is right next to the arena where we do horse training and lessons and stuff. My kids are out there right now, riding horses. Yeah, we're crazy up in here. We've also been renovating our retreat house. We're going to be opening up to be able to offer our retreat house up to people who want to come and have a little equestrian getaway here in North Carolina, in the next couple of weeks, so that's really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you have social handles for all these things, right?

Rachel Rodgers :

Yes. We are @therodgersranch, Rodgers with a D, on Instagram. Then my personal Instagram is @rachrodgersesq, and you can follow my company, HelloSeven, @hello7co.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much for coming back to the show.

Rachel Rodgers :

Thank you for having me. I love talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, let's review some of the key money tips that Rachel gave us. First of all, aim high. Rachel is all about seven figures, not six. Having high goals is a win-win. If you reach it, you win, but if you get closer than you would have with a lower goal, you also are better off and you still have more room to grow, win. One of the easiest ways to make money is to collect the money that you are owed receivables matter, get them settled. Sell before you create, that way you prove the concept and you have built in pre-orders when you do launch. Just be careful to manage timeline expectations for when customers will get the product.

Bobbi Rebell:

Get over getting everyone to like you and choose who you spend your time with very carefully. Be a friend, be a business colleague, do not be a therapist, unless of course you are a therapist. Make the effort to create a work environment where you will be your most productive. People are shocked that I wrote most of my book, How to Be a Financial Grownup, at a big ugly Formica table under bright lights at the Whole Foods across the street from my apartment. But you know what? There were no distractions and there was great wifi, it worked. Try to experiment a bit and find what works for you. And take a skills assessment test. We'll have the links to the ones Rachel suggested in the show notes.

Bobbi Rebell:

Friends, there is also a companion course to Rachel's book. You can find out more on her website, which we will also have linked in the show notes. Let me know how you guys liked the updated format. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and get more money tips by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and signing up for our now weekly Money Tips newsletter. Big thanks to Rachel Rodgers for coming back and sharing her money tips for financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Saven is our talent coordinator and content creators, so yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com, and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts, it only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grown-up life.

Follow Rachel!

• Instagram - @hello7co

• Instagram - @therodgersranch

• Instagram - @rachrodgersesq

• Facebook - @Hello7Co

• Facebook - @rachelrodgerslaw

• Twitter - @rachrodgersesq

• Rachel’s website - www.helloseven.co

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Catherine Alford did everything right as she got ready to start a family with her medical student husband. But the unexpected and financially devastating cost of her newborn twins forced her to make some tough choices, that have changed her whole view of the world. Plus- her top negotiating tip and a preview of her new book Moms Got Money: A Millennial Mom’s Guide to Managing Money Like a Boss. 

Catherine’s Money Story-

Before I became self-employed, before I gave birth to twins in 2014, I had chronicled my whole plan to become self-employed, super motivating. I saved this $10,000 baby fund. I saved all this money because I knew we'd have to move shortly after having the kids. I kept showing everyone the side hustles of this, the building up, so I was very organized and prepared which is sort of my way with money. But after I had the twins, after we moved, all of those things, having preemie twins, having some health problems with them, it pretty much drained everything I had saved and announced to thousands of people in the world on my blog that I had saved. And the twins needed this specialty formula, expensive formul. I told my pediatrician, "I don't know if I can afford it." It was like, $50 a can or something. And my husband was a student at the time, so it was just me, big time, brand new entrepreneur, mom of twins. I got this, and I did not have it. And so the pediatrician said, "Well, you can use this program called WIC which is for low-income mothers. It provides food and other things to make sure that mom and baby are well-nourished." I went and got them. And I didn't tell anybody because I felt such shame. I just felt like I was supposed to be this person helping other people with their savings, and I was supposed to be this motivating person. And I felt so ashamed that I couldn't buy this formula. And what made it worse is that I get the check. I've got these two babies with me in the grocery store, and I find the formula, do the whole thing, and the checkout lady is looking at the check, "What is this? I'm so nervous. I'm already feeling such shame. Got the two babies. I'm like, "It's a WIC check. You use it, and then I take the formula." She's like, "We've never seen one of these before. No one uses these at this store, and I don't know what to do." And so she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." And in that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids get so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store. So I start crying. The kids start crying. The manager comes over. We all made it to the car. All of us cried the whole way home, babies, me. And I think that was probably the lowest point for me, and my kids just turned seven. So it took me six or seven years to actually share that with the public.

Catherine’s Money Lesson-

I think the biggest lesson is even in those bleakest kind of bottom moments, don't give up. There can always be a comeback story. I could've asked for help. I have a whole chapter on the importance of vulnerability and telling people when you need help and even being vulnerable and sharing your successes with people too. But I am stubborn and super independent. I really wanted to make it on my own, wanted the business to work. And it just felt like such a failure for me, but I could have easily asked for help from a family member, from somebody, but I didn't. And I wanted to make myself suffer as if it was my fault, even though I had done everything right. So the experience really fueled me. I was like, "I don't want to do this again. I don't want to go through this again." So I really doubled down on my business after that. And by the time my kids were three, I was earning six figures for my business, and things got better from there. But it was really that moment that was like, "Look, we can't mess around with this business. Girl, you got sit down. You got to get going on this because we can't be in this checkout line again like this."

Buy your copy of Mom’s Got Money now!

Check out millennialhomeowner.com , a website to help millennial’s on their journey to buy a house. (Catherine’s on the team!)

Follow Catherine!

• Instagram - @catherinecalford

• Twitter- @catcalford

• LinkedIn- Catherine Alford

• Website- www.catherinealford.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell :

I was watching this interview the other day with Nick Jonas. He was promoting his upcoming album and telling everyone about how he learned to make these cool designs in his homemade cappuccinos. And by the way, based on the picture that they showed, he's actually pretty good at it.

Bobbi Rebell :

And then he broke character. You could just see the change in his body language and his voice as he got honest. Nick Jonas says he is just so bored, and you know what? I believe him. I am too. I don't know. How about you? I would love to come in here and say that I have some magical solution. Sorry, but at least I can try to get all of us to break down our walls a little bit like Nick and maybe have a little laugh at everything?

Bobbi Rebell :

We take being a grownup really seriously, and that's for all good reasons, but we also need a break. And we need to give our friends and family a break.

Bobbi Rebell :

Grownup Gear is perfect for that. Who doesn't need a pillow that says, "You had me a debt free" with an adorable pig wearing shades. And let's be honest. A sweatshirt reading, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either" is really what we're all thinking.

Bobbi Rebell :

You can see more designs at grownupgear.com or on my website, bobbirebell.com. The merch makes great gifts for everything from graduations, engagements, bachelor and bachelorette parties, bridal showers, Mother's Day, Father's Day, and the most important holiday of all, today because we're all still here living our lives the best we can in spite of all the things.

Bobbi Rebell :

Go to grownupgear.com and be sure to check my Instagram, @bobbirebell1, for discount codes, and thank you for supporting this venture and for supporting the podcast.

Catherine Alford :

So she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." In that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids gets so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store.

Catherine Alford :

I start crying. The kids start crying. All of us cried the whole way home.

Bobbi Rebell :

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup, but you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hello, my grownup friends. The title of this episode is Public Money Shame at the Grocery Store.

Bobbi Rebell :

Now at first glance, you might think I was talking about guest, Mom's Got Money author, Catherine Alford. But the title doesn't refer to Catherine. It's actually meant to point to the dad who judged her, standing behind her at the grocery store, knowing nothing about her or her situation. Shame on him because Katherine's newborn twins were preemies. She needed a special formula that was crazy expensive. And so, yes, she needed help. And she had the humility and frankly, the common sense as someone responsible for two tiny humans to get the babies the help they needed, even if it meant asking for help.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'll leave it to Catherine to share more in our interview, and I'll be back with some very strong feelings about this other person later.

Bobbi Rebell :

But first, a quick check-in. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Financial Grownup. We share stories from accomplished financial grownups and the lessons from them, and then we wrap things up with the money tip we can all put to work to live a richer life.

Bobbi Rebell :

When I met Catherine for the first time in 2016, my book had just come out, and she asked me for advice because she had an idea for a book. Her twins were, I would guess, about two years old, and now they're seven. And she has published that book. I'm so truly and deeply proud of this woman, having witnessed just a fraction of what she's experienced and is now sharing.

Bobbi Rebell :

And for the non-moms out there, invest the time to listen to this story because as I said a few moments ago, the story isn't so much about Catherine. It's about all of us, including that dad who couldn't hit pause for just a moment to see the human being right in front of him and the money struggles that we choose not to see.

Bobbi Rebell :

I'm so grateful Catherine shared her story. Here is Mom's Got Money author, Catherine.

Bobbi Rebell :

Hello, Catherine Alford, my friend. You are a Financial Grownup. Welcome.

Catherine Alford :

Thanks for having me, Bobbi. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell :

I am excited to share more about your new book, Mom's Got Money: A Millennial Mom's Guide to Managing Money like a Boss. Congrats on the book.

Catherine Alford :

Thank you so much. Been a long time coming, as you know.

Bobbi Rebell :

I do know. And I want to first do your money story. We'll get back to more about the book, but the money story I've asked you to talk about is from the book. And you're going to elaborate a little bit on it here, but I hope people will go back and read the full story in the book.

Bobbi Rebell :

It's a topic that is really uncomfortable. Very few people want to talk about, but we should because, I'm just going to guess, it's probably more common in different ways than any of us want to admit in public to the world, and you were very brave to do so.

Bobbi Rebell :

Tell us your money story, Catherine.

Catherine Alford :

Sure. Well, before I became self-employed, before I gave birth to twins in 2014, I had chronicled my whole plan to become self-employed, super motivating. I saved this $10,000 baby fund. I saved all this money because I knew we'd have to move shortly after having the kids. I kept showing everyone the side hustles of this, the building up, so I was very organized and prepared which is sort of my way with money.

Catherine Alford :

But after I had the twins, after we moved, all of those things, having preemie twins, having some health problems with them, it pretty much drained everything I had saved and announced to thousands of people in the world on my blog that I had saved. And the twins needed this specialty formula, expensive formula reflux, blah, blah, blah.

Catherine Alford :

I told my pediatrician, "I don't know if I can afford it." It was like, I don't know, $50 a can or something. And my husband was a student at the time, so it was just me, big time, brand new entrepreneur, mom of twins. I got this, and I did not have it.

Catherine Alford :

And so the pediatrician said, "Well, you can use this program called WIC which is for low-income mothers. It provides food and other things to make sure that mom and baby are well-nourished." I went and got them. And I didn't tell anybody because I felt such shame. I just felt like I was supposed to be this person helping other people with their savings, and I was supposed to be this motivating person. And I felt so ashamed that I couldn't buy this formula.

Catherine Alford :

And what made it worse is that I get the check. I've got these two babies with me in the grocery store, and I find the formula, do the whole thing, and the checkout lady is looking at the check, "What is this? I'm so nervous. I'm already feeling such shame. Got the two babies. I'm like, "It's a WIC check. You use it, and then I take the formula." She's like, "We've never seen one of these before. No one uses these at this store, and I don't know what to do."

Catherine Alford :

And so she gets on the loudspeaker in the grocery store and says, "Customer needs assistance with a WIC check." I'm already ready to just leave. I'm like, "Whatever. It doesn't matter." And in that moment, this dad behind me with two little kids get so pissed, he leaves all of his groceries on the belt, and he just storms out the store.

Catherine Alford :

So I start crying. The kids start crying. The manager comes over. We all made it to the car. All of us cried the whole way home, babies, me. And I think that was probably the lowest point for me, and my kids just turned seven. So it took me six or seven years to actually share that with the public.

Catherine Alford :

But that one made it in the book. It's still the one story in the whole book that gets me every time. I go right back there to the intercom every time I read that.

Bobbi Rebell :

What's the lesson from that? I mean, there are so many. There are so many lessons, I don't know where to begin. For you, for our listeners, what is the biggest lesson, I guess?

Catherine Alford :

I think the biggest lesson is even in those bleakest kind of bottom moments, don't give up. There can always be a comeback story. I mean, I could've asked for help. I mean, I have a whole chapter on the importance of vulnerability and telling people when you need help and even telling... being vulnerable and sharing your successes with people too.

Catherine Alford :

But I am stubborn, super independent. I really wanted to make it on my own, wanted the business to work. And it just felt like such a failure for me, but I could have easily asked for help from a family member, from somebody, but I didn't. And I wanted to make myself suffer as if it was my fault, even though I had done everything right.

Catherine Alford :

So the experience really fueled me. I was like, "I don't want to do this again. I don't want to go through this again." So I really doubled down on my business after that. And by the time my kids were three, I was earning six figures for my business, and things got better from there. But it was really that moment that was like, "Look, we can't mess around with this business. Girl, you got sit down. You got to get going on this because we can't be in this checkout line again like this."

Bobbi Rebell :

How did it affect your view of people that you now see that need help?

Catherine Alford :

So much compassion, and I have so much empathy. You just... you never really know what someone is going through. And I'm actually grateful for the experience because I think I have a lot more compassion.

Catherine Alford :

I actually... I tried to buy two cans of formula for a mom behind me in line. I like really want to do this now. It was funny because I was finishing checking out, and the mom behind me had two cans of formula. I'm like, "I'll take her formula too." And she said, "Oh no, I'm buying it with WIC. Don't worry about it." And I was like, "I know about that. I used that with my twins." And I always try to help moms when I see formula on their checkout line instead of leave like the dad behind me.

Catherine Alford :

So I think even really successful people have these down moments, especially in our industry and the kind of jobs we do. We don't really like to talk about the bad stuff. Educators about personal finance talk about all the good stuff. All you see is the million dollar business. Even when you've had a lot of good runs, you can still have the bad moment and come back from it.

Bobbi Rebell :

And we learned a lot about that in the pandemic. Many people just lost clients overnight, or the clients hit pause, and there was so much uncertainty in what we do and in what so many people do. Thank you for sharing that.

Bobbi Rebell :

Let's move on to your money tip because this has to do with valuing yourself, and it particularly applies to moms in the context of your book, but it really could apply to so many people that do things that aren't necessarily valued for what they should be.

Bobbi Rebell :

What is your money tip?

Catherine Alford :

Well, this one is for all the mamas out there. I really like to encourage moms to know their approximate hourly rate. As moms, we feel so guilty. All of us know we need help. We need Mary Poppins. We [inaudible 00:12:02] fairy godmother. We all need so much help. But we resist. We're like, "We don't really need the housekeeper. Do we really need a babysitter for that thing? I could just take the kids to my hair appointment."

Catherine Alford :

It's like, "No, you need to know your hourly rate so that you can eliminate that guilt about outsourcing." As long as you make more per hour than what you're paying the person helping you, then there should be no guilt. If you're a stay-at-home mom, you could maybe do a little side hustle or something to help you out, or if you're a working mom, make sure you calculate that rate, and that way you, don't have any guilt.

Bobbi Rebell :

Fun fact, LinkedIn recently added Stay-at-Home Mom as a job category.

Catherine Alford :

I saw that. That's cool.

Bobbi Rebell :

Why so long?

Bobbi Rebell :

Anyway, I want to talk about your book, Mom's Got Money: A Millennial Mom's Guide to Managing Money Like a Boss, and I'm going to put you on the spot. In the book, you talk about cringe-worthy purchases when you advise moms to go and look at things that are maybe not necessarily needed in terms of the things that they spend money on.

Bobbi Rebell :

What is your most cringe-worthy purchase, Catherine Alford?

Catherine Alford :

I remember when I first started running ads from Facebook for my business really early on in my business, I pretty much did not have the money to spend, or it was most of what I had earned that month. And I remember spending almost $1,000 on Facebook Ads to run webinars [inaudible 00:13:22] and nothing converted and nothing sold. It was in two days, the money just disappeared like I was gambling with it.

Catherine Alford :

Now, 10 years later, I know a lot more about Facebook Ads, but just so many choices in business like that. You have to kind of try things. But that was a painful one.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right, one more thing. One thing I love in the book is that you talk about the fact that you would love negotiating, and you've taught your children too. What is your number one tip for negotiating successfully?

Catherine Alford :

My number one tip is to be nice. I think people think negotiating is all about being really aggressive and making sure you get your words in, and you make sure you say the number first. I am just so nice when negotiating, and I'm really complimentary about how much I really want to work with the person, how awesome they are. But I have to have a certain number, and it's such a bummer just because I have all these time constraints, it really has to be this number to make it work. So I am the nicest negotiator.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right. Tell us where people can find out more about you and the book.

Catherine Alford :

You could find out more about me at catherinealford.com. I'm always on the 'gram under @catherinecalford. And on my website, my readers can go to the homepage, and they can download a Mom's Got Money workbook which has a ton of stuff from the book and a lot of great things to think about and for moms to sort of jumpstart their money journey.

Bobbi Rebell :

Perfect. Thank you so much. This has been wonderful, so much great advice, and I hope everyone picks up the book.

Catherine Alford :

Thanks for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell :

Here we go, my friends. Financial Grownup Tip Number One: Do as Catherine now says, not as she did. Ask for help from people who love you. Catherine didn't take her own advice to ask for help from the people that care about her, her closest friends and family. As she said in our interview, she has a whole chapter on vulnerability. But Catherine, like many of us, wanted to make it on her own and felt that asking for help, even in these unforeseen and very extreme circumstances, would have been perceived as a failure. She was afraid of letting people down. She now knows so much better.

Bobbi Rebell :

I get it. I bet you do too. It's a really hard thing to ask for help from people that are cheering you on because they think you've got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Well, try to at least have the discussion. It's okay to say that things have changed. You might feel so much relief, just not hiding your secret.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup Tip Number Two, and this is a big one: Do not presume you have any idea what is going on with the person ahead of you in a grocery line who may be using coupons, government assistance, whatever. And don't presume you won't be in a financially vulnerable position in the future. We should all know better after the past year.

Bobbi Rebell :

I also want to share a fun moment that we experienced, we shared, I should say, over social media Catherine and I had soon after we recorded this interview. Her books arrived, and she shared the big unboxing with her kids on her Instagram account. It made me remember my own unboxing moment from 2016 with my now 13-year-old, and guess what? I found the video, and I was able to share it. It was great.

Bobbi Rebell :

The best part of writing a book or any big achievement, frankly, is seeing people you love, and especially your kids, light up with pride. Please think about that the next time you feel guilty working towards a goal or having to spend more time than you would like away from your kids and loved ones.

Bobbi Rebell :

On that note, a couple of big announcements. April is Financial Literacy Month, and thanks to the generosity of our Financial Grownup guests who have new books out and their publishers, I am giving out books to all of you to celebrate. DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and just write, "I'd love a book by a Financial Grownup," and we'll send you one.

Bobbi Rebell :

Next, I want to spend more time getting to know you. Please join me and my Financial Grownup money experts on our weekly Clubhouse chats. They happen Friday at 1:00 PM Eastern in the Money Tips for Grownups Club. DM me on Instagram if you need invitation for Clubhouse or any help in figuring out how to get there. I am @bobbirebell1.

Bobbi Rebell :

And finally, Mother's Day is coming up. I have some great gift options at grownupgear.com. I hope you take a moment to check it out. The podcast is free to you, but the revenue from Grownup Gear helps to support and pay for the podcast, so thank you for your support.

Bobbi Rebell :

Go pick up a copy of Mom's Got Money for yourself or for the moms in your life, and big thanks to Catherine Alford for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell :

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Saven is our talent coordinator and content creator, so that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell :

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell :

While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup.

Bobbi Rebell :

Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes.

Bobbi Rebell :

Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Former pre-school teacher Tiffany Aliche created a mini-“boss” entrepreneur when her savvy stepdaughter started asking questions about money- and put her on an early path to being a financial grownup. Plus we preview Tiffany’s latest book, Get Good with Money. 10 Steps to Financial Wholeness. 

Tiffany’s Money Story

Every time we would go out shopping, My husband would buy my step-daughter a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him thatt his is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup. I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words." She would get birthday money or Christmas money. I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me." What he realized, because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving, she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that. She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time. I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn. Now, when she was buying ( her favorite place is Staples) she was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were. And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy. She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

Tiffany’s Money Lesson

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently. And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Tiffany’s Everyday Money Tip

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered. And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

#2 - Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Buy Tiffany’s book, GET GOOD WITH MONEY today!

Follow Tiffany!

• Instagram - @thebudgetnista

• Twitter- @thebudgetnista

• LinkedIn- Tiffany Aliche

• Website- thebudgetnista.com

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn- Bobbi Rebell

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up-for-work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJs and those grungy t-shirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded-but-still-super-comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick-me-ups to, to let them know it's all good. And that includes you.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently, like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either," or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost-grownup friend.

Bobbi Rebell:

Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

When I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others, so she had... because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, grownups, how many of you had parents who had you open up their paychecks? Definitely not me. But our financial grownup this week, Tiffany Aliche, known as The Budgetnista, didn't just do that; she talked to her bonus daughter about all the money stuff. Not just the paychecks that she was allowing her to open, as early as age seven; she talked to her about the taxes, the business deductions, the negotiations, the side hustles, the net profit and so much more. These ladies do business plans in their sleep.

Bobbi Rebell:

Welcome everyone to the Financial Grownup podcast. So, glad you guys are here. We talk with high-achieving grownups about money stories that inspired their lives and the lessons from them. And this week's financial grownup, Tiffany Aliche, is truly next-level. I joke with her that while most books these days are Money 101, hers, Get Good With Money, is Money 201 because she holds her readers to a higher standard and goes into the real grownup stuff. Not surprising, given her background in teaching preschool, where she sets kids as young as three up for success. You'll hear what she has to say about what kids that age should hear, when they say, "Buy me... " She pulls no punches.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany has a thriving business, teaching money skills to thousands of Dream Catchers and co-hosts the Brown Ambition podcast with Mandi Woodruff. But as you will hear, this mega entrepreneur, wife and mother's biggest accolades may in fact come from the lessons she is teaching her step-daughter. Here is The Budgetnista, Tiffany Aliche.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you so much, Bobbi with an "I".

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes. And congratulations on your book. I'm going to hold it up here, even though no one can see it, just because I feel good holding it up because I love the cover. Your book is Get Good with Money: Ten Simple Steps to Become Financially Whole. We're going to talk about it more later in the podcast, but give us just high-level what it's about.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's about financial wholeness, which is when these 10 core aspects of your financial life grow together and meld together to create the strongest financial foundation possible so you can build any financial house you want on top of it.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I love, when you read the book, you go along and you get percentages, so you feel like you're building to get to that 100%, which is great. Like I said, we're going to circle back to the book, but first I want to ask you your money story. And it has to do with your bonus baby, your daughter, your 14-year-old step-daughter. She was seven when you came into her life. And you had some interesting discussions about money. Tell us how your money conversations began and how they've evolved.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, they began because I just noticed that her father, every time we would go out shopping, food-shopping or whatever, she would always get a toy or something. And at first, I was like, "Did she get good grades today? Is it her birthday?" And I noticed that she just came to expect that, "If we're going someplace random, I'm going to get something." And I told him, "This is not the best way to raise a financially-savvy grownup." So, I told him instead, "Let's put her on a budget so we can give her the words."

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would get birthday money or Christmas money. And so, I would tell her to save it. I got her a little piggy bank. And before we would go someplace, I would say, because I call her Supergirl, that's her nickname because I call her father, my husband, Superman. So, I would say, "Supergirl, we're going to Target today. What's your budget?" And she'd asked me like, "What does that mean?" I'm like, "The amount of money that you have to spend." And she would say, "I don't know. Whatever Daddy gives me." I'm like, "No, no. It's in your piggy bank." So, she would go and be like, "Oh, okay, I've got $5." I'm like, "You can bring it with you. What do you want to do?" And she's like, "I'd bring it with me."

Tiffany Aliche :

What he realized... because at first, he thought that I was pulling back and giving... she would feel like I was coming in and she was getting less stuff. But what he didn't realize, what I knew as an educator and a preschool teacher for over 10 years, is that kids love autonomy. What she loved even more than saying, "Get what you want. No, not that. No, no, not that," is, "Here's your budget. It's $5. Get what you want as long as it's kid-appropriate," because now she had the power. There was no, "No, not that."

Tiffany Aliche :

She loves comparing prices. "This is $4.99. This is $3.32. If I get this and this... " And so, we would have those conversations all the time.

Tiffany Aliche :

I can remember the first time she learned about tax. Something was exactly $4.99. And she had $5. I knew there was going to be tax. I didn't say anything until we got to the register. And they told her like, "$5.12." And she was like, "I don't... I don't have 12 cents." I was like, "Well, things have tax. Taxes are used to build your school and the roads. And so, we pay them to make our state and our city better." And I remember she being like, "Oh, do I have to put it back?" And so, thankfully the lady behind... I had 12 cents obviously, but the lady behind the counter thought it was so adorable and gave her 12 cents. But she started to learn like, "Oh... "

Tiffany Aliche :

So, now, when she was buying... her favorite place is Staples. She was buying her favorite gel pens or markers or coloring pencils, that she knew, okay... she calls me Tiffy when she was little. "Tiffy, how much is the tax going to be?" Because she wanted to integrate that into what her choices were.

Tiffany Aliche :

And now, she's a super savvy boss. When my book came out and they sent me them in the mail, Penguin Random House, my publisher, she saw them and she jumped up and down and she said, "Can I have one?" And I thought she just wanted to keep it, but I heard her tell her little girlfriend on the phone like, "Girl, my stepmother's book came in. I'm about to get my money all the way together." So, she has just become super savvy.

Tiffany Aliche :

She now does work for me at The Budgetnista. My sister's my publicist. She does work with my sister. You should see her mapping out how much she wants to make. She actually has a map on her wall of what she wants to make, what she wants to get with it. We elevated her to a piggy bank when she was 10 for saving, giving and spending. So, now she knows every time she gets money, she has to put it into those three categories. So, she has just grown into this super savvy, major budgetnista. And I'm proud of her because it all started when she was seven and I taught her what a budget was.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you also were very brave in that you were transparent with your money coming in and the costs associated with running a business. Tell us a little bit about why you did that because many parents hold back. We all hold back secret... I don't know if "secrets" is the right word, but we're not with our money, certainly to young people. And that was an interesting decision.

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah. So, I used to allow her... when I would get speaking engagements, I would allow her to open the checks when they came because I wanted her to see that there are different ways to make income and certain ways pay more than others because I didn't have a broad scope of what I could be.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, she would open it and say, "$500." And then it became 10,000. And then so when I got like a $1,500 check, she'd be like, "It's only 1,500." I'm like, "Only 1,500?" Because maybe the one before was 10,000. So, I let her see that because I wanted her to see that different things that I did paid different amounts of money.

Tiffany Aliche :

And I remember, I think she was in fifth or sixth grade and she had to interview someone she admired. And she chose me because she wanted to be an entrepreneur. She wasn't sure what she wanted to be. I mean, she's sold lip gloss. She's made friendship bracelets. She's done a bunch of different... now, she's got a YouTube channel. Now, she's teaching adults how to use TikTok. It's like she's got a bunch of different businesses going.

Tiffany Aliche :

But I remember when I realized she was really getting it, because she was still young then, maybe eight or nine. And I explained to her how taxes worked. She heard me talking to her father about taxes. She asked me what they were. And I told her, "Similar to sales tax, taxes are when you pay some of the money that you earn to the government so they can use it to make our country better."

Tiffany Aliche :

And I said, "But when you're an entrepreneur, taxes work differently. When I was a teacher," I told her, "Before I even get my paycheck, the government takes their taxes." And she was like, "That's unfair." I'm like, "Many would say so." But I said, "But as an entrepreneur, when you see those paychecks, Supergirl, I get all my money. Then I can use that money to grow and maintain the business. And what's left over, I pay taxes on. That's why you see me save the receipts. I save the receipts so I can show the government, 'Hey, I spent money to run my business.'" She had a bag one day and it was 15 different receipts. And I'm like, "Well, what are these from?" She's like, "These are the receipts so you give to the government so you could show them that you spend money on the business." And I was like, "Well, they have to be receipts for my business." But the fact that at eight or nine that she was thinking like that was just really transformative.

Tiffany Aliche :

I was a school teacher before I started The Budgetnista. I've seen firsthand that a lot of parents think that it's not age-appropriate to teach financial education to kids. It's inappropriate not to. There are ways to do it in a way that's appropriate as young as three because typically by three or four or five, kids start to saying, "Mommy, Daddy, Auntie, Uncle, can you buy me... " not just, "Can I have... " So, once you hear that word "buy", they've already made the connection between stuff and money. You want to make sure it's the right connection.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson from your money story?

Tiffany Aliche :

The lesson for my money story is it is important to teach kids in a teachable moment, when you have the opportunity. It's important to teach kids about money in real time. Make it meaningful for them, whether it's their favorite store and you explain how their $10 can only get so much. Do it consistently.

Tiffany Aliche :

And don't bring shame into it or judgment. I never made her feel bad about she didn't have enough or, "We don't have that kind of money." It's important. So, teach your children. Make it age-appropriate. Be consistent. And keep it positive.

Bobbi Rebell:

So brilliant. You brought with you an everyday money tip that has to do with paper towels?

Tiffany Aliche :

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tell us. Tell us. This is great.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, when I was a kid, I was quite clumsy, as I am now. And I would spill stuff all over the floor. My favorite was some kind of red juice on some sort of light-colored carpet or couch. And my dad, I am very much like him, is a natural fusser. You spill something, "Oh my goodness... " My dad and mom were born in Nigeria. "My goodness, you spilled again? We don't have juice. We don't have money to be cleaning carpets." So, you're all flustered.

Tiffany Aliche :

And my mom, when you spilled something, would just get up and hand you a paper towel. And I remember thinking, because I'm very much like my father, I would fuss at myself when I made mistakes. But I remember thinking, "You know what? After Daddy finishes fussing, he hands me a paper towel. So, why go through that middle anxiety and fussing and judgment? Why can't we just get to the paper towel?"

Tiffany Aliche :

And I really took that as a metaphor for life, that I want to be a paper-towel person, especially when it comes to my money. I spent too much on my credit card. "Oh my goodness, Tiffany... " No. Go get the paper towel. You know what? I'm going to put the credit card in my desk at home. I'm going to use the snowball method to pay it off. I'm going to automate it. That's the paper towel. Being a paper-towel person means that you're solution-focused, solution-oriented. You skip over the fussing because honestly, you got to give yourself the grace and the space to make mistakes and to find those solutions. So, be the paper towel.

Bobbi Rebell:

Skip the drama. Find the solution.

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's talk about this book because it is... this is a substantial book. Again, it's called Get Good with Money. One of my favorite things is you say something that has become somewhat controversial. In this age, where we are so focused on automating things... and some things should be automated, absolutely. We should automate our savings and things like that. But just because something, like certain apps, can automate investing doesn't mean you don't need the human touch. You really advocate for having a human involved. Tell us more about the belief and why we need to be more cognizant of it.

Tiffany Aliche :

No, absolutely. Because there's nuance with human beings that you don't get from just automating everything. And also too, it's really from people that you learn. So, if everything is automated and you automate your investments, that's great, but you don't really learn why something works. That's why we have teachers because it's through these teachers that you get to really learn why something works and how it works.

Tiffany Aliche :

It's critically important, depending on where you are in life, that you have actual people who have been there, done that to lean into, whether it's a CFP, whether it's an accountant. You may or may not need one. You might need an insurance agent. You might need an attorney. It all depends. But at the very least, I tell people to get themselves an accountability partner, someone that you can travel the financial journey with. It might be your work mom, it might be your sister, your cousin, but someone that you can link with that you can kind of share the struggles, that you can get accountability and encouragement from and someone who can help to normalize the process. I think human beings work best in community. And it's not something that goes away just because we're talking about money.

Bobbi Rebell:

I read so many books, Tiffany. And many of them are very good, but they're very much Money 101. This is, I feel, more Money 201. You're a former teacher. Well, you're really still a teacher, let's be honest. You hold people to a higher standard. You go into some much more sophisticated topics, but in an accessible way. Tell us about that decision to be a little bit more challenging and to be a little more ambitious with this book.

Tiffany Aliche :

Well, as a teacher, Bobbi, one of the things that we really learn is something called differentiated learning, that people learn differently. So, literally, when I taught, I had kids ages just turned three to turned five. So, that's like high school and college in the same classroom. So, I really had to learn how do I teach something in a way that doesn't offend the five-year-olds and they don't get bored and start tearing up the classroom, or it's not too heavy for the three-year-olds so they don't start tearing up the classroom. And so, I really mastered how do I speak to different ranges of folks.

Tiffany Aliche :

So, the first five steps in financial wholeness, Get Good with Money are really the foundational: budgeting, debt, credit, savings, learn to earn. But the next five really are a deeper dive. So, that's how I address that. I was like, "Okay, if you have that great super foundation, then here's where you're going to learn how to invest for retirement and wealth. Here's where you're going to learn how to make sure you get good with insurance, your net worth, getting your money team and estate planning." And so, I spoke to both of those levels by including both of them in the book. But I wanted to make sure that even if you're like, "You know what? I've got the super foundation," I really did deeper dives so you could learn something new, even if you were pretty good there. Or if you were ready to go to the next level and it was new to you, I really explained it in such a way that even if investing was new to you, that you could really learn.

Bobbi Rebell:

You did a great job. Where can people learn more about you and be in touch?

Tiffany Aliche :

So, you can learn more about me... I'm The Budgetnista on all social media platforms. And you can keep in touch and get the book at getgoodwithmoney.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much.

Tiffany Aliche :

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, here's my take. Financial grownup tip number one. As I've aged, I have grown to appreciate something that Tiffany touches on: the limitations of robo-advisors and robo-everything. Yes, you will likely have to pay a human to give you advice. And people who are good at their job are well worth paying. And yes, some humans are unethical and will sell you things you don't need. So, it is buyer beware. But robo-advisors work on algorithms and fancy formulas and so on. And there's a lot of good there. But robos can't read into who you really are, what actually matters to you and have a conversation that might bring up financial needs, financial wants maybe even that you didn't realize you had, the nuances in our lives that sometimes don't come out in a questionnaire. It's chapter nine. Read more about what Tiffany has to say about getting humans involved.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup tip number two. Don't sit your kids down and have a formal lecture about money. Do it in the moment like Tiffany said because it is in that moment that the lesson will be real, relatable and most of all, memorable.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends. April is Financial Literacy Month and I'm giving away a ton of incredible money books, including Tiffany's. Want one? All you have to do is DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and just say, "I'd love a book from a financial grownup." The authors that are on this podcast and their publishers are incredibly generous. And I can't wait to send out lots and lots of books.

Bobbi Rebell:

And by the way, I was so honored to have the Financial Grownup podcast on Real Simple's list of the top 10 best finance podcasts for beginners, investors and everyone, along with Tiffany and Mandi's Brown Ambition podcast and many more really fantastic shows. I'll share the article in the show notes, which you can see on my website, bobbirebell.com. And I hope you'll make the time to check out some of the other great money podcasts on the list.

Bobbi Rebell:

Big thanks to Tiffany Aliche, The Budgetnista, for teaching us all how to be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell. But the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer. And Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator, so, yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels.

Bobbi Rebell:

Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. And this year, we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear Shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

Stay in touch on Instagram at @bobbirebell1 and on Twitter at @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

The best-selling author reveals what happened when her dad opened her mail and saw her credit card debt, and the surprising result when she and her husband cut their budget by 90 percent. Plus a preview of her new book: Your Turn: How to be an Adult. 

Julie’s Money Lesson:

Okay, the recliner. I'm starting to make a lot of money. I'm making enough that my husband is like, "How would you feel about me being a full-time artist?" And I was like, “Yes!”. I was supporting a family of four. My husband became a full-time artist and we started spending money. We're buying the nicer table. We're buying the nicer artwork. We're buying the nicer recliner. We realized that our set point of what we could just spend money on, in terms of discretionary spending, had just increased as our salary increased. We're looking around like we're making far more money than we ever had, but we're not saving a darn thing. What is up? And we realized that set point was just out of control. We were just dropping $1,000 without thinking about it. I read up, I talked to people and I learned this rule of if you want to save, you want to change your habits, you don't just try to start saving 5% or 10% if you've been saving nothing, you need to start saving for yourself first. You need to pay yourself first and decide what your savings goals are and set that to the side and then pay the rest of your bills. And that meant that our discretionary spending, we were going to cut by 95% or by 90%. If we were spending $1,000 on a recliner, when we had to buy the second recliner, it was going to be $100. And I was bummed because the second recliner was for me and my husband had the fancy recliner. We went to the cheaper furniture store and sat in recliners. And we had these down, sad faces, like “poor us” right? And I sound so privileged talking about this. I realize some people are like, "$100 is a lot of money." I'm just saying for me, it was a big cut. And then we found this recliner for $100 that is so comfortable. It is like the recliner of choice. You come to our house, everyone gravitates to it. It looks comfortable and it is comfortable. It's the kind of thing when you push the buttons and it starts to leans back, you're like, "Ah". It feels like a spa. And it's the cheapest thing in the whole downstairs of our house. Cut spending on something by 90% and see if you noticed.

Bobbi’s Takeaways:

#1 - Julie jokes about how retirement is over romanticized and I couldn't agree more. Work is not just a path to retirement. We put in about a third of our 24 hour day, and for many of us, a lot more than those eight hours. If you hate what you're doing so much, that you are laser focused on retirement, consider refocusing that energy on enjoying your day to day more. If there's anything we've learned during the pandemic, it's that we should not assume things need to stay the same. Hit pause, give yourself some grownup tough love and fix it.

#2 - Let's get better about asking our friends and colleagues of different backgrounds and races about their experiences with money. Even though Julie clearly and candidly talks about how being a person of color impacted her money decisions in the book, as a white person I wasn't sure about asking Julie about it. I'm really glad I did. I'm not sure why I was so hesitant. And I hope we can all make time to both listen and share with each other as well. And in case you're wondering, as a white person in this country, it never even occurred to me that I needed to use a credit card to prove I belonged in a store. We need to be talking about this.

Get your copy of YOUR TURN: How to Be an Adult today!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

It is officially spring. And that means graduation season is on. We here at The Financial Grownup Podcast have created some new super fun gifts just for that in our grownupgear.com merch store. We have adorable hats, totes, mugs, pillows, tees, and the seriously, most cozy and comfortable sweaters all on grownupgear.com and all at affordable prices. Grownup Gear also makes great gifts for Mother's Day, Father's Day, engagements, bachelor/bachelorette, parties birthdays, and of course, just for fun to treat yourself. Use code graduation for a 15% discount. And thank you in advance for your orders. Buying from our small business helps to support this free podcast, and we truly appreciate your support.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

They handed me a check for the full amount, $3,900 plus change, and I felt so shamed and so just embarrassed. Here I am highly educated, a fancy degree from a fancy college and I'd managed to get so far in the hole. And I just cried. I just cried. Tears just rolled down my face.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a Financial Grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this. Hello, my grownup friends. It is April. I am so happy it's April. I don't know about you, but I just, I needed the better weather. Speaking to you from my home in New York City, where we've had a very brutal winter. I was fortunate. I got to go to Florida for a little bit, but we've been home for a while and this better weather could not come at a better time.

Bobbi Rebell:

And also, as some of you get to see, it's very much a work in progress, you see it on my Instagram, but I do get to go out and play golf, which is a really great way to spend time. Anyway, let's talk about this week's Financial Grownup. The adjective that I am going to use to describe her, delightful, Julie Lythcott-Haims is out with a new book, Your Turn: How to be an Adult. It is the much anticipated follow-up to her previous book, How to Raise an Adult, and not to be forgotten in between those, Real American: A Memoir, and a very personal book, which continues to grow in relevance.

Bobbi Rebell:

Julie is a former Stanford Dean. She left that position to pursue her passion, the career she'd always dreamed about, writing. You know what? It's working out okay. Julie's new book, Your Turn: How to be an Adult, is about more than just being a Financial Grownup, though she does have a chapter which is pretty much on the topic. Chapter eight, check it out. The book is about being a full on adult, but for the purposes of this podcast, she was a good sport and gets candid about her money blunders and victories. Here is Julie Lythcott-Haims. Julie Lythcott-Haims, you are a Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Bobbi, no one's ever said that to me before. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

You are very much a Financial Grownup. You're the author of Your Turn: How to be an Adult. Welcome.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I think I'm going to learn something.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm going to ask you to share a money story from the book, which has to do with credit card debt, but there's a really interesting angle that has to do with how you relate to your family, which is so appropriate when we talk about Financial Grownups.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. Thanks for pointing to something that's deeply personal. No, of course. I shared it in the book.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's in the book, Julie.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I know. I'm trying to be vulnerable with my readers so that they can feel more safe and seen. Okay, picture me. I now 53, but in the story, I was maybe 22. I had amassed a lot of credit card debt in college. I was at Stanford University. The student union was basically lined with the desks of fakes who were there to offer me a credit card application. And I filled out maybe two of them. I had two credit cards. I would use my credit cards at the local shopping center. I would use them for groceries. I would use them for dinners and lunches out and coffee. I was just, I was spending money without having really learned the habits of how you keep track of your expenses and the whole interest part with credit cards. Long and short, I had accumulated about $3,900 in debt.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

This would be around 1990, 1991. Maybe double that, maybe like $6,000, $7,000 in today's dollars. I had no way to pay it off. My first job I'd earned $20,000 a year. It's hard to pay down a debt of $3,000 when you're only earning $20,000 gross. And I was headed off to law school and was living with my parents over the summer before law school started. And so my mail, including my bills, was being forwarded to my parents' address. Well, unbeknownst to me, after I had opened the latest credit card bill showing just how much I owed, my parents had read it as well.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

One night they just solemnly came toward me and said, "You're about to go start grad school and you're getting married. And we want you to start life with Dan", my boyfriend and soon to be husband, "with a financial clean slate. So here's a check." They handed me a check for the full amount, $3,900 plus change. And I felt so shamed. And so just embarrassed. Here I am highly educated, a fancy degree from a fancy college, and I'd managed to get so far in the hole and I just cried. I just cried. Tears just rolled down my face. They weren't judgmental. They weren't scolding me. They were offering me this gift.

Bobbi Rebell:

There's also another lesson for our listeners about relationships and how you communicate with your family.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. That really pushes the button, right? I think I was so ashamed that I had let them down by being this child of theirs who had been so irresponsible. And I think the lesson is had I only reached out sooner. I just kept digging the hole deeper and deeper by paying the minimum on my credit cards. If I had reached out to my parents six months earlier, or a year before, or two years before, I would probably never have gotten into such bad debt to start with.

Bobbi Rebell:

We're going to talk for your everyday money lesson about the fact that you guys like to splurge. But then there was sort of an aha moment. Tell us about the recliner.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Okay, the recliner. I'm starting to make a lot of money. I'm making enough that my husband, who's a designer, a product designer, user experience designer, is like, "How would you feel about me being a full-time artist?" And I was like, yes. Okay, that's how capable I was of supporting a family of four. My husband became a full-time artist and we started spending money. We're buying the nicer table. We're buying the nicer artwork. We're buying the nicer recliner.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

We realized that our set point of what we could just spend money on, in terms of discretionary spending, had just increased as our salary increased. We're looking around like we're making far more money than we ever had, but we're not saving a darn thing. What is up? And we realized that set point was just out of control. We were just dropping $1,000 without thinking about it. I read up, I talked to people and I learned this rule of if you want to save, you want to change your habits, you don't just try to start saving 5% or 10% if you've been saving nothing, you need to start saving for yourself first.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

You need to pay yourself first and decide what your savings goals are and set that to the side and then pay the rest of your bills. And that meant that our discretionary spending, we were going to cut by 95% or by 90%. If we were spending $1,000 on a recliner, when we had to buy the second recliner, it was going to be $100. And I was bummed because the second recliner was for me and my husband had the fancy recliner. We went to the cheaper furniture store and sat in recliners. And we had these down, sad faces, like poor us, we can only, right? And I sound so privileged talking about this. I realize some people are like,"$100 is a lot of money."

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I'm just saying for me, it was a big cut. And then we found this recliner for $100 that is so comfortable. It is like the recliner of choice. You come to our house, everyone gravitates to it. It looks comfortable and it is comfortable. It's the kind of thing when you push the buttons and it starts to leans back, you're like, "Ah". It feels like a spa. And it's the cheapest thing in the whole downstairs of our house.

Bobbi Rebell:

But it's good. It's working for you and you saved 90%.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

Nobody misses not spending the money.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

That's right.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's so great. And yeah, the tip is basically cuts something by 90% and see if you noticed.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Right. That's right.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That's a good one.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

100%. Yep.

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's talk more about this book. I devoured it. I have to say it's a robust book. This is a book that took a lot of research. I really encourage people, not only to read it, but to settle in with it because it really is worth your time. I picked out a few of the things that I'd like you to elaborate on within the book. And the first one kind of tag team to what we just talked about because there's a lot of talk about cutting your expenses so that you can retire early. That's one of the motivations for taking drastic action when it comes to spending. But you talk about the fact that retiring early is really over romanticized.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

The retiring early rhetoric tends to be, "My job sucks. I can't wait to retire. I'm just going to slog away working in this dungeon so that I can at 55 or 57 or 60, whatever, I can kick back and relax and travel." If that's the choice you're making, more power to you. But in the book, I'm trying to expand people's horizons and get folks to think maybe work doesn't have to feel so awful, such that all you want to do is leave work. Maybe you can lead a career life, a job life, a professional life that is intrinsically rewarding. It feels good. You're tapping into your talents, your strengths, your loves, you're growing. You're making enough money to pay your bills.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

And you're like, "Hey, I'm not eager to retire. I enjoy what I'm doing." And then to put a fine point on it, Bobbi, oftentimes when people retire, that is they cease doing that which they have always done, that which has been a huge part of their identity, they begin to wither psychologically. They begin to wither physically. They begin to wither in terms of their personal connections, because they're not making things with their hands, they're not doing as much with their brain and they're not seeing human beings as much. Retirement can often lead to a downward spiral. If one is not sort of healthy, hail and active in one's retirement, it can really be the beginning of the end.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I'm here to say, love the work you do, do the work you love, make sure it pays your bills and do it for as long as you can and build in the travel and the enjoyment and the fishing and all of that along the way, rather than waiting to live that life you imagined only after you've retired from some terrible job.

Bobbi Rebell:

Such a good reminder. Another thing that really stood out in the book that I went, oh, that I don't think about enough, when you talked about the spending, and this ties into your spending on the credit cards when you were younger especially, you talk about the fact that racial stereotypes played into your spending decisions. Tell us more.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Well, what listeners need to know is I'm a black and biracial woman, very light skin. But nevertheless, I think to the world, unambiguously of color. And most people figure out that I'm black. I, as a young person, had learned to ... I had internalized the hate that I had experienced along the way. Microaggressions, outright racism, these things were things I experienced in childhood. By the time I get to college and I'm at an elite college, I'm at Stanford University in Silicon Valley and I have these credit cards. I am using the credit cards when I'm in a store, in a fancy store, at the Stanford Shopping Center or in a nice restaurant as a way to demonstrate, I have credit, I am capable. You do not have to associate me with that stereotypical black person you think can't afford to purchase your goods, your food, because I have this credit card.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

I was really deep in my internalized oppression that I was trying to not be the stereotypical black person. I was trying to be the model Negro, if you will, I'm using terms of stereotype. I have long since grown out of that behavior, but I will say, yeah, the credit card was like an appendage that was proving my ability or my worthiness or my right to be in these white environments. I overspent as a result, I'd be with friends at dinner and say like, you know what? I'll take care of the bill. And I'd plunk down my gold. How did I have a gold American Express card so young? But I did. They knew who they were preying on. It worked, right? I was like, I'll take care of the bill. And it was my way of showing, not just the restaurant, but my friends, I have money, even though I didn't necessarily have the money in the bank to pay that bill.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's a tough situation that society puts people in that mindset.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

We could talk about this a lot more, but this is a short podcast and I want to talk about one final theme. And that is that you really humanize a lot of our experiences with money by bringing stories of other people into the book. I wanted to ask you to share that a little bit.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Yeah. Thank you so much. The book is part memoir, me telling my lived experience, as you've just asked me about, me with some self-help tips, practical advice, but then I've got the stories of these other people in every chapter, a really diverse set of people from all walks of life in order to say to all readers, I'm trying to envision all of you as I write this. And the two stories in the money chapter are Wesley, who grew up working poor, put himself through community college, put himself into position of getting to drive for UPS and has been with UPS now for 35 years and will retire with a full pension from UPS.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

It hearkens back to days of yore, when you'd work for one employer all your life, and they were very loyal to you and you were loyal to them and unions were strong and that's not really the way much of the working world works these days, but there are plenty of industries that still do offer pensions, like the package driving industry, like UPS and police and law enforcement more broadly and schools. People who work for the government tend to have a pension. And this is a way to the middle class. Wesley has provided a life for himself, his wife and his son that is just many steps above what he grew up with financially. I wanted that story in there. I think it's a really important story about the American dream and that in many ways it is alive and well today.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

The other story is Denae, who's a dancer, got an undergraduate degree and a master's in dance. She's a professional dancer in New York City. She's done some amazing gigs, but dancing gigs come and they go. And when they go, she doesn't have income unless she supplements that with other work, which she does. Nevertheless, she had racked up with interest $50.000 in student loan debt, living in the most expensive city in America, New York, and or one of the most expensive, and she set herself a goal to get out of that credit card debt.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

She said, "I'm going to be debt three and three years." And she did it by being extremely frugal about her food, extremely thoughtful and mindful about her choices, about how she went places, what kinds of places she rented. She would even say when she was working a temp job in between dancing gigs, somebody took her food out of the fridge and started eating it. And she put a note on the refrigerators, "Hey, please don't eat my food. I'm paying down my student loans." And if that wasn't crystal clear, because she didn't know who did it, but she just knew I have to send this message.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

She stood up for herself, both to herself and to her friends and coworkers to say, "Hey, don't take my stuff. I'm paying off my student loan." Really brave. She did pay down that loan. Danced through the subway in a rented dress that she got from Rent the Runway with a big sign saying, "I'm debt-free. Hug me." And then she became a financial planner to help other people. When she's not dancing, she's now a certified financial planner person because she saw how many of her own peers, highly educated, didn't know enough about money. Here's to Denae, very much a resource for other people now that she is completely debt free.

Bobbi Rebell:

I am smiling ear to ear hearing that story. And there's so many other wonderful human stories in this book. We know it's going to be available everywhere. I won't have you say that, but where can people find out more about you and any virtual touring that you're going to be doing, my dear?

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thank you, Bobbi. The best way to be in touch with me is through my website, JulieLythcott-Haims.com. I'm sure Bobbi will put the spelling of that in the show notes. From there, you can follow me on social I'm @JLythcott-Haims everywhere. Maybe even Tik Tok, who knows, we'll see. I'm starting a membership club because I like to get real with people. I like to get really vulnerable and share. I know that that's the way we learn and grow and feel less lonely and I'm starting that. That's all online. Go to my website and just from there, you'll be able to follow me what I'm up to and all the virtual tour stuff will be on there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, thank you so much for this. Thank you for the book and thank you for joining us.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

You're amazing. Thanks for having me. And I actually feel more competent about my financial choices and what I've learned from them because you helped me think it through, by walking through these stories with me. Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:

They're all your stories. Thank you.

Julie Lythcott-Haims :

Thanks.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, here's my take. Financial Grownup tip number one, Julie jokes about how retirement is over romanticized And I couldn't agree more. Work is not just a path to retirement. We put in about a third of our 24 hour day, and for many of us, a lot more than those eight hours. If you hate what you're doing so much, that you are laser focused on retirement, consider refocusing that energy on enjoying your day to day more. If there's anything we've learned during the pandemic, it's that we should not assume things need to stay the same. Hit pause, give yourself some grownup tough love and fix it.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial Grownup tip number two, let's get better about asking our friends and colleagues of different backgrounds and races about their experiences with money. Even though Julie clearly and candidly talks about how being a person of color impacted her money decisions in the book, as a white person I wasn't sure about asking Julia about it. I'm really glad I did. I'm not sure why I was so hesitant. And I hope we can all make time to both listen and share with each other as well. And in case you're wondering, as a white person in this country, it never even occurred to me that I needed to use a credit card to prove I belonged in a store. We need to be talking about this.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is Financial Literacy Month and I am giving away a ton of incredible books, including Julie's. You want one? All you have to do is DM me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1, and just say, "I'd love a book from a Financial Grownup". The authors that are on this podcast and their publishers are incredibly generous. And I can't wait to send out lots and lots of books. Everyone, pick up Your Turn: How to be an Adult and big thanks to Julie Lythcott-Haims for helping us all be Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK Media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creators. Yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life.

Bobbi Rebell:

And this year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books. To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go-to BobbiRebell.com to sign up for free, while you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear Shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a Financial Grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com. And if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.

Acorn’s Chief Education Officer Jennifer Barrett shares her own “wake up’ call’ when she learned to think like a breadwinner, and gives us specific strategies to build wealth and create a path to have the rich life we all deserve. 

Jennifer’s Money Lesson-

I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth. So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Jennifer’s Money Tip-

I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbi’s Tips-

Financial Grownup Tip #1-

Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent.

Financial Grownup Tip #2-

Thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Get your copy of Think Like A Bread Winner by Jennifer Barrett

Follow Jennifer!

• Instagram - @jbarrettnyc

• Twitter- @jbarrettNYC

• LinkedIn- Jennifer Barrett

• Website- www.jenniferbarrett.com

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• Twitter- @bobbirebell

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Full Transcript:

Bobbie Rebell: Question for you guys. Are we ever going to get back to that whole dress up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy tshirts, and we need to give ourselves an upgraded, but still super comfy, wardrobe that makes us smile, and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well. I have so many friends that I've wanted to send a little pick me ups to, to let them know it's all good, and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear, a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more thaT I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long, a good giggle.

Bobbie Rebell: Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently. Like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress, or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more. Give it to yourself or your favorite grownup, or almost grownup, friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales, follow us on Instagram at our new handle, @grownupgear, and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear, you help support this free podcast.

Jen Barrett: Deep down. I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life. I really thought my husband would be the main earner. So it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary, and then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises.

Bobbie Rebell: You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbie Rebell: Hey, Grownups, this episode has been about five years in the making. I'll never forget sitting in a Midtown restaurant with my new friend, Jennifer Barrett. A mutual friend had introduced us thinking, "Well, you guys have a lot in common and maybe you guys will come up with some projects together." So we were brainstorming our two big ideas. For me, it was Financial Grownup and the idea of sharing money stories to inspire people to build the foundation for a wealthy life of choices, getting to live the life that they want. For Jen, it was the concept that we all had to, well, think like breadwinners. Jen had, and still has, I should say, what we call a big job. She really is the breadwinner and her job as the chief education officer at Acorns is intense and sometimes all consuming. But finally, her new book, Think Like a Bread Winner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less is coming out.

Bobbie Rebell:I can tell all of you it has been well worth the wait. I was honored that Jen asked me to contribute to this book and to endorse it along with David Bach, Eve Rodsky, the author of Fairplay, Farnoosh Torabi, who by the way wrote When She Makes More, so thinking along the same path, and Erin Lowry, who's been a frequent guest on this podcast, author of the Broke Millennial books series, and many more. In our interview, Jen Barrett shares the story that started it all when she realized what she didn't want to admit. If she wanted to get what she wanted to get, she was going to have to start thinking like a breadwinner. Here is Jennifer Barrett.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen Barrett, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jen Barrett: Thanks so much for having me.

Bobbie Rebell: I'm so excited to talk to you about your new book. So many years in the making, we've been talking about this for years. It's finally here. Think Like A Breadwinner, A Wealth Building Manifesto For Women Who Want To Earn More and Worry Less. By the way, Jen, it's already getting reviews that are amazing. This one I'm going to read to people. It's from Ladders, which is a career website. "Jennifer Barrett's manifesto for working women transcends its goal by being more than a finance book, but a testament that anyone anywhere can achieve their goals with the right advice." Not bad, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, that was a nice review. It was nice to read.

Bobbie Rebell: You're very modest.

Jen Barrett: I know. You're so nervous. You're on pins and needles before the book comes out. You're like, "I hope they like it." So it was really nice to read that.

Bobbie Rebell: Well, I got a sneak peek of the book because I got to endorse it so everyone can read my blurb when they get the book. Before we talk more about it, though, you did bring with you a money story, which really inspired the book so many years ago. Tell us your money story, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, well, there's a material difference between being able to cover the bills and handle a budgets and building wealth that supports your life and the future you want. That difference became super clear to me just after we'd had our oldest son. At the time, I was in my early 30s and we were sharing a small one bedroom apartment with our toddler who was about 18 months old. One night I was pacing back and forth with him, trying to get him back to sleep, and I think it just hit me so hard in that moment that we were in a situation that was just completely unsustainable.

Jen Barrett: I had this moment of, "Wait a second. I thought I was doing everything right financially." I had a little 401k. I had a little bit of savings. I was paying half the bills. But what I realized was that I hadn't been putting money away for the things that were most important to me, and that was being able to have another child, to afford to buy a place or even to move into a bigger apartments because we lived in Brooklyn, which is not cheap. I did some real soul searching and asked myself, "Why didn't I make those choices with my money to save more and to invest more?" I realized that subconsciously I had been thinking that my husband would take the lead there. In that moment, I think it finally dawned on me how precarious an assumption that is. So I asked myself in the days that followed, "How would the choices I make with my money and my career be different if I had been raised to think like a breadwinner?"

Jen Barrett: That's what sort of set me off on a whole new journey and brought me to where I am today, more than a decade later, which is a much better place financially. We have a larger home. I helped with most of the down payment. We have two lovely sons now. I've had both a career and been able to build the kind of wealth that I couldn't have even imagined 12 years ago when I had that wake up call.

Bobbie Rebell: Tell us more about what you were doing before you had that wake up call, what kind of job you had. Because you had a really good job that a lot of people would be very, very envious of and really admire. I mean, you were high achieving and then the things that you looked for in the next job, besides obviously paying more. I know there was a lot of soul searching about sort of what people would think, because we're both journalist backgrounds, there's a lot of judgment there.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, and I think that's an important point is just because you have a good job doesn't mean that you have your finances together. You can be a professional success and feel like a financial failure. I interviewed more than 100 women for the book and I did find that to be the case with a surprising number of women who were otherwise very successful. So I think I was in sort of the same situation but with one crucial distinction, which is I was an editor at Newsweek at that point a pretty big weekly news magazine. It has since sort of gone under and been reborn and it's not quite the same as it used to be, but it was a great job. I really looked like I had it all together from the outside, but I was really living paycheck to paycheck for the most part.

Jen Barrett: We say paycheck to paycheck, but what I was was broke, right? I only had a few hundred dollars in my savings. I was still paying down some credit card debt. So if you looked at my actual net worth, I was in negative territory and I really wasn't making the kinds of choices or making the kinds of money that would allow me to support the life that I really wanted. One big reason for that, which is almost embarrassing to admit now and I've since changed my approach with this significantly, is that I had never negotiated my salary. So when I got the job at Newsweek, I was just so thrilled to be hired there I literally did not even think to negotiate. I do think part of that was that I was so excited to be hired there, but the other part of it was deep down I really don't think I believed that I would be taking the lead financially at any point in my life.

Jen Barrett: I really thought my husband would be the main earner and so it probably seemed less important to negotiate that salary. Then for the next seven years, I barely negotiated my raises. So one other critical moment for me was I came back from maternity leave and I found out that someone had been hired who had just a few more years experience than me in a very similar role and they were making 50% more than me. That moment was like ... It was so crushing that I vowed I would never ever make that mistake again and I was going to negotiate the hell out of every job offer and raise that I got from that point on, and it made me sort of reassess this idea I had about loyalty and about employers just taking care of you because you're doing a great job. It was a real wake up call in that sense too, where I realized I need to advocate for myself. I need to show my value. I need to ask for it and not assume that I'm going to get it just because I'm doing a good job.

Bobbie Rebell: So you set out to get a job that paid more. Tell us what that job was and how that onboarding went.

Jen Barrett: Yeah. So I was hired in my first job in management. I became the director of a health site. It was part of NBC. It was called iVillage Health. It was a huge site at the time. I think one of the top five largest health sites for women. It was a dramatic increase in the amount of responsibility I had, but also in my salary. So I ended up making almost double what I had ... Actually, no. More than double what I had been making at Newsweek and in between there I freelanced, and when I was freelancing, I really understood that I had undervalued myself and my skills because I was able to make a lot more freelancing than I had in my full-time job at Newsweek. So that was also a realization and a validation of the fact that the skills that I had were valuable. Then with this job, it both provided a lot more income. It allowed me to get the mortgage and it also put me on the management track, which I have been on ever since.

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what was your husband thinking while this was going on? Did you have talks about this?

Jen Barrett: We did and I think part of it was when he and I first started dating, he was working at a startup at the time and was making a lot more than I was as a reporter. But I think that's where some of the assumptions sort of got set in my head. The startup went under and then he moved back to journalism. So he took a pretty big pay cut and suddenly our salaries were much closer than they have been. But I think in my head, I still kept telling myself that that was a temporary situation. I still expected him to earn considerably more than me, even as the evidence started to mount that that may not be the case, particularly with both of us being in journalism. We did have some discussions around that and in particular, when I got that job in management at that point, he was on contract.

Jen Barrett: So we realized that my income and my income prospects were probably greater at that particular point. Certainly I was the one who had secured the mortgage in part because I had a full-time job and it's very difficult when you are on contract to get approved. So we realized that my income was really critical to the household and so that launched a whole series of discussions about how is this going to work. I'm not going to say it was easy. We had to have a lot of really difficult discussions because I was pregnant with our second son when I moved into the breadwinner role. In my mind, again, I thought, "Oh, this is sort of a temporary situation where I'm going to take on this really demanding role so we can get the mortgage. I'll keep doing this."

Jen Barrett: Then I found I really enjoyed it. I realized I really am quite ambitious and so I wasn't sure I wanted to give up that role, but at the same time, for a while I was also trying to be the primary caregiver and that, as anyone who has tried to do both can tell you, is almost impossible to sustain. So it led to some really emotional and candid conversations with my husband about what role are we each going to take here and how are we going to divide all the responsibilities, household responsibilities, caregiving, breadwinning, in a way that feels fair to each of us?

Bobbie Rebell: Jen, what is the lesson from your story?

Jen Barrett: I think every woman would benefit from thinking like a breadwinner, from really basing our choices, the choices we make with our money and our career on the assumption that we should be able to provide the life that we want for ourselves without having to depend on someone else. If we make our money and career choices on that assumption, we will set ourselves up really nicely. Then if we need someone, whether or not we end up being the main earner is sort of irrelevant, but the most important thing is to think about what do I want in my life and what do I need to do financially, professionally to make that happen? One of the most important pieces of that is building wealth.

Jen Barrett: So that means investing right off the bat as early as you can, as much as you can, because that is really the ticket to freedom. The more money that you have invested, the more freedom you have, because you are decreasing your dependency on each paycheck with the amount of money that you have growing for you. It just gives you so many more options. It means you can buy a house on your own, whether or not you're with somebody else. It means that if you lose a job, you are fine. You have that financial security net. It means if you want to have a baby on your own, you can afford that financially. It just gives you so many more choices with your life.

Bobbie Rebell: You also brought with you in everyday money tip.

Jen Barrett: Yeah, I think it comes down to asking yourself the question, "Are the choices I'm making with my money bringing me closer or further away from the future I want?" That seems like such a basic question, but I still ask myself that a lot of times when I'm thinking about even small choices around my money. "Is this going to bring me closer to the future I want, or is this setting me back?" So it's a good question to ask yourself regularly, a good gut check.

Bobbie Rebell: It's a very good gut check and I think it's something that sounds easy, but we don't really do that a lot. We don't usually just kind of pause and sit down and really think about that and maybe even write down a few things that we want to do. I find when you write things down, sometimes they stick a little bit better. I don't know. All right, we got to shift gears because I don't want to run out of time and we have to talk about Think Like A Breadwinner because this is a book that has been in the making for quite a long time, because it is so well researched, Jen. You spent a lot of time doing the work here and the book is chock-full of statistics that are ... Some of them would just blow my mind. If you could share with us just one statistic that's sort of your elevator pitch to get this book, what is that one stat that stands out?

Jen Barrett: Well, I think one of the most significant stats is that half of moms in this country today are contributing at least 40% of the total household earnings. That's according to the latest Institute for Women's Policy Research report. That just reinforces the fact that women's income is absolutely critical right now. I think we saw that when women started dropping out of the workforce. We could see what the impact was going to be, not just on families, but on the economy.

Bobbie Rebell: A lot of this book was already done before the pandemic, but you were still finishing it up during the pandemic. What is in the book now that would not have been pre-pandemic?

Jen Barrett: The pandemic reminded us of how important it is to take charge of our finances and to build the kind of savings and wealth that provide financial security and help us weather tough times like this. So that message of taking care of yourself and putting money into an investment account and building wealth to support you not just now but in the future is more important than ever.

Bobbie Rebell: So well said. Jen, where can people catch up with you? I know that your book is going to be everywhere.

Jen Barrett: I hope so. You can find me at jenniferbarrett.com and you can read more about the book there, and then I'm on social media all over the place. It's @jbarrettNYC on Instagram, Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn.

Bobbie Rebell: All the places.

Jen Barrett: Oh, the places. Clubhouse. Yes.

Bobbie Rebell: Yes, Clubhouse. Let's not forget that. Thanks, Jen.

Jen Barrett: Thank you.

Bobbie Rebell: Here we go. Financial Grownup tip number one. Jen talked about how hard it is to negotiate. I've had the toughest time with this too so I want to recommend a book that made a huge difference to me. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He also has a masterclass if you like to watch videos and I can tell you, I watched it all and it is excellent. Financial Grownup tip number two, thinking like a breadwinner sadly is not optional. I have twice become the family breadwinner totally out of the blue and it was temporary, but let me tell you, it is a shock to the system. Like Jen, I never thought it would happen to me. You don't have to be the breadwinner, but you do have to be ready to step up if life throws you a curve ball. Jen's book will help you do just that, so definitely pick up a copy of Think Like a Breadwinner.

Bobbie Rebell: One thing I do, I always try to think of new revenue streams. My latest is Grownup Gear. You can see more about it at grownupgear.com. I hope you'll support it by checking out the merchandise. It's perfect for all of your grownup milestones. Gifts for graduation, new parents, mother's day, father's day, a new home, birthdays, or just celebrating being a grownup and kind of owning it. Discount codes available on my Instagram @bobbirebell1. Another reason to follow me on Instagram, we will be giving away copies of Jen's book and of other authors on the show. This spring, so many amazing authors are on tap and they're generously giving gifts to our Grownup community. I also want to invite everyone to join our weekly Friday at 1:00 PM Clubhouse chats in the Money Tips For Grownups club. DM me on Instagram if you need and invite to Clubhouse. Big thanks to Jen Barrett for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbie Rebell: The Financial Grownup Podcast is a production of BRK media. The podcast is hosted by me, Bobbi Rebell, but the real magic happens behind the scenes with our team. Steve Stewart is our editor and producer, and Amanda Savan is our talent coordinator and content creator. So yeah, that means she does the show notes you can get for every show right on our website and all the fantastic graphics that you can see on our social media channels. Our mission here at Financial Grownup is to help you be at your financial best in every stage of life. This year we want to help you get there by giving away some of our favorite money books.

Bobbie Rebell: To get yours, make sure you are on the Grownup list. Go to bobbirebell.com to sign up for free. While you're there, please check out our Grownup Gear shop and help support the show by buying something to express your commitment to being a financial grownup. Stay in touch on Instagram @bobbirebell1and on Twitter @bobbirebell. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com and if you enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and maybe leave a review on Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple minutes. Join us next time for more stories to help you live your best grownup life.