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Business Breakups: How to know when it is time to go- and how to find your next move with author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig
Business Breakups: How to know when it is time to go- and how to find your next move with author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig

Jessica Zweig leads the thriving personal branding business: Simply Be. But the author of the new book "Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself” only got to this point in her life because she was able to exit a toxic business relationship that brought her personally and financially to rock bottom. Plus she shares an everyday money tip that will help us reach our goals during the pandemic, no matter what obstacles we are facing. 

Jessica’s Money Story:

Jessica Zweig-insta (3).png

My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had 100,000 local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship." And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth. It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch.


Jessica’s Money Lesson:

Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page.


Jessica’s Money Tip:

So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.


Bobbi’s Take:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships, and used the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. - This past week the dating app Bumble went public. Its founder,  Whitney Wolfe Herd started Bumble in 2014..  after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder, where she was a co-founder- after a breakup with another co-founder. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and is worth over a billion dollars. 


Financial Grownup Tip #2:

So many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic- in part because it feels like no one is watching. I mean after all. We can and do literally work in our pajamas. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time. Get an accountability partner. Get someone who will be committed to you- and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren’t doing that- break up fast and find another accountability partner. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy, but this more quiet time will come to an end, and the opportunity to get to your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste. 

Get your copy of Be: A No-Bullsh*t Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself.

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell: Question for you guys, are we ever going to get back to that whole dress-up for work thing the way we used to? I don't know. But one thing I do know is it is time to get out of those PJ's and those grungy t-shirts and we need to give ourselves an upgraded but still super comfy wardrobe that makes us smile and ideally makes our coworkers, our friends and our family smile as well.

Bobbi Rebell: I have so many friends that I've wanted to send little pick me ups to to let them know it's all good and that includes you. So that's why I created Grownup Gear a fun line of t-shirts, sweats, pillows, mugs, totes, and more that I guarantee will give you and everyone that you're Zooming with all day long a good giggle. Grownup Gear is about saying the things out loud that we tell ourselves silently like when you wake up and you look in the mirror and you think, "I can't believe I'm a grownup either." Or maybe you just want to be honest that you are still a grownup in progress or you want to send a gift congratulating a friend for paying off their debt. The most comfy sweatshirts, t-shirts, tote bags, mugs, pillows, and more give it to yourself or your favorite grownup or almost grownup friend. Go to grownupgear.com to check it out. For discount codes and sales follow us on Instagram at our new handle at @GrownupGear and DM us with any questions. And thank you because by supporting Grownup Gear you help support this free podcast.

Bobbi Rebell: The debt and the brokeness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would've if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. And you know what? Being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We've got this.

Bobbi Rebell: Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Financial Grownup Podcast. We share money stories here that had big impacts on our guests lives and of course then they share with us the lessons from them. I'm your host Bobbi Rebell, Journalist, Certified Financial Planner and author of the book How To Be a Financial Grownup. If you're new here welcome. I'm so glad you found us.

Bobbi Rebell: So that clip that you heard at the top of the show was from author and personal branding expert Jessica Zweig. Jessica has a new book out called Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. I have to say I love that title. The thing about Jessica is that if you don't know her you would never know all the things that she has had to overcome to well be where she is now that included a toxic business relationship that lasted for seven years. The breakup left her with nothing hitting rock bottom at age 33, even having to ask her parents for money just to pay her phone bill. Just when we think we will be hitting our grownup stride you never know what's going to hit us. There is a lot to learn from this remarkable woman and she does not hold back in this interview. Here is Jessica Zweig.

Bobbi Rebell: Jessica Zweig, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me Bobbi. I'm pumped to be here.

Bobbi Rebell: Well, I am pumped to have you here. Your book Be, I'm holding it up by the way, Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself is about to come out and it's your first book. Congratulations.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much. You know how much goes into it so thank you for saying that.

Bobbi Rebell: I really enjoyed learning so much about you and what you teach people in the book. What's interesting is you come across as having it all together which you do now I'm going to say but it wasn't always the case. You brought with us a money story that is sadly something many of us can relate to but often don't know what to do with, I should say that often don't know what to do about, and that is finding ourselves in toxic relationships personally and in business in work environments. Tell us your money story Jessica.

Jessica Zweig: My first company was a magazine that I ran called Cheeky for seven years, from 2008 to 2014. I was 26 when I started that company. We launched the biggest platform for women in Chicago. We were the it fashion, food blog in the city. We had a hundred thousand local readers. And from the outside we were this really sparkly, successful business but on the inside we were very dysfunctional, toxic, and weren't really succeeding. And it was our first business. We were so young. I was 26, she was 24. I didn't know her that well when we went into business which is I think a common mistake people make when they meet someone they really love and they have that spark and then they get into business together and then they're like, "Oh my gosh. Business is like running a family and a marriage. It's such an intense relationship."

Jessica Zweig: And we really didn't know each other and so we just made a ton of mistakes. We opened up a ton of credit cards. She was managing the books, I was doing sales. We were so young, so green, so inexperienced and seven years later we had $75,000 worth of debt and I wanted to leave the business and she didn't. And so, I was willing to settle for my half of the debt and she was very, very upset with me for leaving and it was a really tough decision. I loved her, I loved the business. I mean, we were like sisters. We had a love, hate. After seven years of building something great with someone you do have a relationship. So it wasn't an easy thing but I think in many ways she looked at me like I was abandoning her but I was really just following my truth.

Jessica Zweig: It had run its course. I couldn't do it anymore. And I did want to clean up my side of the street and pay off my 50% of the debt with a payment plan because that's all I could afford. And I got a lawyer and she got hers and it just got really, really, really ugly and it took about seven, nine months for us to settle it. And I ended up paying 50% of the debt in one fell swoop and I had very little money in savings. I ended up having no choice but to just clear it and start from scratch. Bobbi Rebell: When you look back were there red flags that you should have spotted in the relationship, in the business in terms of the skills that you both brought?

Jessica Zweig: From day one. I mean, there were massive red flags. I think I realized three months in just how different we were but we were young and we were so naive and we both really loved this business. This magazine Cheeky was our baby. And so I didn't want to give it up and she didn't want to give it up and at the core there was a magic connection with us. We wouldn't have created what we created if there wasn't that synergistic spark. And we both loved each other to a degree which was what made it so difficult.

Jessica Zweig: But there were red flags and it was honestly one of the most toxic relationships of my life. I mean, we were together for seven years and we were water and vinegar. We were just totally different people. And I'm not saying I was better or she was worse, we were just different. I've come to so much peace and love and honestly forgiveness for myself first in the way that I showed up in that relationship as much as her and how she showed up in the relationship which I think has really been a huge key to me soaring in the last few years because I really did my own work.

Jessica Zweig: I think it's so easy to point fingers at people when they burn us or they hurt us or they come after us. There's that expression when you point one finger at someone, I mean do it, you're pointing three back at yourself. So you really do have to look at yourself in any sort of situation but when it comes to money it's especially loaded and I could still be angry, I could still be bitter, I could still be resentful. I don't feel any of those feelings. And it was the greatest learning lesson of my life. I applied all of those mistakes, all of those failures to simply be and simply be is so successful and it wouldn't have been unless I had that seven year chapter and run of making all of those mistakes.

Jessica Zweig: So, I think that everything happens for a reason and I feel like the debt and the brokenness has made me value money today and cherish money and respect money and operate my money with so much more reverence and care than I think I would have if I hadn't reached that rock bottom. So, everything happens for a reason and divine order. It's happening for you not to you even though it can really feel the opposite in the moment. I wouldn't be who I am without that business and that failure.

Bobbi Rebell: Can you me a specific example of something that happened that highlighted your differences? It doesn't have to be your biggest fight or something but something especially money related that you just never agreed on.

Jessica Zweig:I think we were both pretty irresponsible with the way we spent the business's money. I really wanted to grow it and scale it and exit. I wanted to be that type of entrepreneur and she wanted it to be a more lifestyle business. If you're going to go into business with anyone whether it's a business partner or someone on your team or your leadership team to really understand those nuances and get everyone on the same page. Because it sets the foundation for the type of business and the rate in which you want to grow and how you want to operate and who you want to do business with so, so much. And we just didn't have the skills. We were so young. We didn't have the tools to talk about money and business at that level. We were green as grass. So, of course it netted out the way that we netted out. And we also were really done when we opened up our credit cards. She was the personal guarantor on the credit cards. It was just mistake, after mistake, after mistake.

Bobbi Rebell: Yeah. I love that you're talking about the fact that it is so hard to talk about money and it sounds like you guys didn't have a lot of talks about money and how you were going to structure your firm and how you were going to fund it before you started it. What is the lesson for our listeners as we put it all in context?

Jessica Zweig: Communicate. Be willing to have hard conversations. Money makes people funny. I also would say, don't ever talk about money in those conversations on email or on Slack or even on the phone. We unfortunately can't get together in person so if you Zoom, Zoom, but in-person is best. Having sacred space around conversations, honoring this is uncomfortable, honoring this is important, honoring this is going to make or break our business if we don't talk about it. And we just didn't communicate. Our communication style was so dysfunctional and broken and I think actually way, way up and make the right decision to partner with the right people in the first place. Because if you do then you won't need to ceremonialize these conversations so much because you'll already be in the same vibration, in the same page. And yet money makes people funny no matter what and so you really have to recognize that in yourself and in the others and bring as much consciousness and integrity to those kinds of negotiations, conversations, whatnot.

Bobbi Rebell: I could talk to you forever about this but I want to get your everyday money tip because it's something that I am already implementing for 2021 and that is having accountability, having an accountability partner. Talk about that.

Jessica Zweig: Yeah. So I actually write about this in my book. I have a whole chapter on accountability partners. Because attempting to do anything great and big and significant for your life you need someone to keep you accountable. You need someone to hold you in check. So whether that's writing a book, launching a business, saving money, paying off your debt, having a partner in it is I think the key to the success of it all. And to be frank with you, I'm very fortunate. So the pandemic disrupted my business in a lot of beautiful ways, in a lot of challenging ways. And one of the things I did is I applied for the PPP. I had a finance team at the time that I didn't really fully like, they were fine, and they wanted to charge me $10,000 to apply for the PPP loan which I thought was the most counterintuitive request I've ever seen because we were a small business going into a pandemic applying for a loan and they wanted to charge us money.

Jessica Zweig: And so, I brought in my husband who is a financial advisor, as well as you are. And his business had kind of slowed down, he couldn't go out and network, we were quarantining. And he's like, "Jess, I'll help you with the PPP." He took one look at my finance team and was like, "Dude, I can do this better." And so I fired my finance team and I hired my husband. And my husband and I have always obviously been partners and accountable to each other because we're married but bringing him into my business...

Jessica Zweig: He's now my CFO, he helps me run the shop, saving money, ensuring that our P and L's are always balanced, making sure we're net profitable. Having someone that I trust, obviously I trust no one more than my own husband but he has really allowed me to fly as the CEO because I know that he's got things covered. And we operate like a legit finance CFO to CEO. We take weekly meetings. He has an agenda. We run through every money in money out, hiring, investments, savings. We don't have any debt in our business. It's a really powerful person, obviously it's my own husband. But if you can have someone to pulse check you, to support you, to believe in you, to honestly be able to see the forest from the trees more than you can in your own project or business or money endeavor that is so key.

Jessica Zweig: And then another thing that I have done that has really allowed me to get out of debt and save money and feel really, really peaceful and abundant and my husband has helped me with this is we've set up an account. I call it my island account and it's a bank account we can only put money in. And if I needed to take money out I'd have to drive all the way across town in the worst hours, whatever. It's my island account. I can only send money to it, it can only grow. And I'm stacking my cheddar as my accountant once told me and my husband helps me ensure that money is being sent to that account every single month and that we're totally able to send that level of money over to that account and that's really grown our savings. My husband and I sleep well at night because of it.

Jessica Zweig: And so those are the key hacks that having my husband and having that account has changed honestly my financial wellbeing more than my finances but more of my financial wellbeing, which I think is key to vibrating at that level of abundance and attracting more.

Bobbi Rebell: That's such great advice. There's also a lot more great advice and I'm picking up your book now even though I know we're on audio and your book, okay I'm going to read the title Be, with a period, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing Your Self-Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself. And I love the yellow cover. Yellow became one of your themes in the book so it transcends so much about you and your sunny personality. Tell us briefly about the book.

Jessica Zweig: So the book is a personal branding book. It's going to walk you through my trademark methodology of how to build your platform, the platform of you. Whether you work for yourself, or you work for someone else, or you want to one day work for yourself, having an understanding of what makes you you is an invaluable asset that you can take with you no matter what your job title is. That's number one. It's going to teach you tactically step-by-step how to do that from messaging, to strategy, to content, to social media, to PR.

Jessica Zweig: However, it is a personal empowerment book in fact disguised as a business book. Because I think at the core most people feel afraid to do that and to put themselves out there. And I say that my book is the permission slip and the reminder that you are worthy to be seen and to shine and to have everything you ever want. And it's my own journey in fact as well and my uncovering that truth for myself. And so, I'm right along with you throughout the whole book and you're going to take away so much tactical knowledge but at the end of the day I hope it inspires people to stop playing small and stop apologizing for their authentic amazingness. And that's what my book Be is about.

Bobbi Rebell: One of the recommendations in the book is to keep your social media and all of your public identifying names, et cetera, very consistent. So let's end with you telling us where people can find you on all of the social media because I know you keep it easy.

Jessica Zweig: I walk the talk as I say I drink my own Kool-Aid. So yes I am at Jessica Zweig on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, jessicazweig.com. You can also go to simplybeagency.com which is my company's website and find me. I'm really, really, really easy to find. I'm out there. So please come and say hi.

Bobbi Rebell: Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jessica Zweig: Thank you so much for having me. This was amazing.

Bobbi Rebell: Here we go my friends Financial Grownup tip number one, some of the greatest business and financial success stories come from people who have survived toxic business relationships like Jessica, and like Jessica they use the lessons from those crushing and painful experiences to thrive in their next venture. This past week the dating app Bumble went public and its founder Whitney Wolfe-Herd started Bumble in 2014 after she very publicly left the dating app Tinder where she was a co-founder after a breakup with another co-founder. And she's talked about it a lot, it was a toxic relationship for sure. She is now the youngest female CEO to take her company public and worth over a billion dollars. What a great story.

Bobbi Rebell: Financial Grownup tip number two, so many of us are having trouble staying on track to meet our goals during the pandemic in part because it feels like no one's watching. I mean, after all we can and do literally work in our pajamas, certainly the off-camera part. We can quite literally take a nap between meetings. So it is time, get an accountability partner like Jessica. Get someone who will be committed to you and to whom you will also be committed to keeping on track. And if you both aren't doing that well break up fast and find another accountability partner who's a better fit. Nothing wrong with taking it a little easy but this more quiet time will come to an end and the opportunity to get your goals without so many distractions should not go to waste.

Bobbi Rebell: One way to get motivated, get out of those PJ's. Realistically, I know we aren't getting dressed up but have some fun with your pandemic wardrobe. That's what I know I needed when I came up with a concept for Grownup Gear it is all about celebrating wherever we are in our journey to being grown ups which never really ends let's be honest. Check out the designs on my website, bobbirebell.com. Click on shop or just go directly to grownupgear.com. And please be in touch. DM me what you want more of on this podcast. I love your feedback. I put discount codes for Grownup Gear on my Instagram, which by the way is Bobbi Rebell one. And we did just start a Grownup Gear Instagram. We don't have a lot of followers so please come check it out. That's at @GrownupGear on Instagram.

Bobbi Rebell: So big thanks to Jessica Zweig, author of Be, A No Bullshit Guide to Increasing You Self-Worth and Your Net Worth By Simply Being Yourself. Everyone check out the book and thanks again to Jessica for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Advice, Authors, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Financial Independence, Investing, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Startup, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsGuest UserJessica Zweig, Business Breakup, simplybe, money stories, money, finance, saving, spending, stocks, debt, credit cards
Financial Grownup Guide: Gamestop lessons and reflections for investors
Financial Grownup Guide: Gamestop lessons and reflections for investors

Gamestop's meteoric rise and fall, and the roles Reddit, Hedge Funds, and Robinhood played in it, have many lessons for financial grownups. Bobbi explains what happened, and reveals what new data is showing that many news reports initially got wrong. 

In this episode, you will learn:

The real final gamestop insta.png

-What actually happened?

- Why did Gamestop stock surge?

-How does short selling work?

-What goes on in the online forums (like reddit’s Wall Street Bets)?

-What is a short squeeze?

-How FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) played into things.

-Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

-Who got hurt and why?

-What did we learn from this?

Takeaways:

#1 - While everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

#2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

#3 -Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

This is going to be a special solo episode and we are going to talk about the Gamestop phenemonon that happened recently that has gotten a lot of you interested in how the stock market works, how the companies that hold the money you invest in stocks work, and most of all, how you can make money by buying stocks. 

Here on the financial grownups podcast we normally share money stories that impacted our lives and the lessons from them, or tips and tricks to improve your financial situation but today we’re breaking format because what happened recently with Gamestop, and a few other stocks, and Robinhood and some other brokerage firms really changed the game for a lot of people. 

Here’s what we are going to cover:

What actually happened- why did Gamestop (which is a company that wasn’t doing well). suddenly have a surging stock?

How does short selling work?

What goes on in the online forums, like reddit’s Wall Street Bets?

What is a short squeeze?

FOMO- fear of missing out- how that played into things…

Why did brokerages like Robinhood put the brakes on trading?

Who got hurt and why?

What did we learn?

So let’s start with what happened. Gamestop’s actual business, which is primarily selling video games in brick and mortar retail stores, was not doing well. So a lot of professional investors, including hedge funds, were betting against it, doing something called short selling. And by the way- this happened recently with a few stocks but we’re just going to talk about Gamestop here. 

What is short selling. Essentially- the investor goes to the broker and borrows the stock. They turn around and sell that stock to someone else. So they don’t have the stock, but they do have to return it to the broker. The goal is for the stock to go down between the time they sold it to someone else, and the time they have to buy it back, to return it back to the broker who lent it to them. Short selling is super risky because if the stock goes up- it absolutely has to be bought to give back to the broker. Since there is no limit to how high a stock can go, there is no limit to how much the short seller can lose. In other words- don’t go there unless you really know what you are doing. 

While this was happening, the stock started getting talked about on reddit, in particular on a page called Wall Street bets. They noticed that the stock was heavily shorted- and that there was a big change at Gamestop- some new members of the board. One in particular, Chewy Co-founder Ryan Cohen got noticed because he had a lot of digital experience- something Gamestop really needed. That combination got the Wall Street Bets folks to pile into the stock and cause it to rally. 

Next topic: The short Squeeze. Remember all those Wall Street professionals that had shorted the stock? As the stock rose, they were seeing that the price to re-buy the stock they had shorted was skyrocketing and they had to cover their bets.. by buying the stock… which set in motion this seemingly accelerating rise in Gamestop stock-

Then came the FOMO- fear of missing out. As news reports of this were coming out, more and more people wanted in on the action, and things started to get out of hand. Plus the whole thing took on a larger meaning because of media reports that  all these little guys banding together- there were more than 5 million folks on that reddit page- and the word was they were beating these big professional hedge funds. Everyone was talking about it. 

Now let’s talk about the brokerage firms and one in particular that gets a lot of attention: Robinhood. Amateur investors can go on Robinhood and trade for free. Robinhood has had it’s share of controversy in the past, but that’s a whole other podcast. In this case, Robinhood started to get worried- and, citing extreme volatility stopped allowing it’s customers to buy the stock- though they could still sell it. So keep in mind, Robinhood’s customers are generally individuals. The professional investors who were not dependent on Robinhood could keep buying and selling. The optics were not good. Some people thought they were doing it to protect the Wall Street pro’s from losing too much money. Politicians cried foul, and people lawyered up. 

As the dust settles - there is another dramatic twist. University of Chicago law professor Todd Henderson, says the pros saw what was happening and basically piggy backed on the little guys. 

He studied the data from that time. And while there was a burst of retail activity-  he says in a cnbc piece- eventually it was actually the big guys- against the other big guys. According to Henderson, hedge funds purchased stock and held it. This created fewer shares for short sellers to borrow in the market, and that squeezed the number of possible shares available to be loaned, making it harder for short sellers to bet against the stock. The desperate short-sellers needed to find new shares to borrow but supply got constricted.. If you are not following at this point- that’s kind of the point. It’s complicated. And it is not for amateurs. 

And that brings us to who got hurt and why. So yes, hedge funds and one in particular got hurt. As I write this, Gamestop’s gains have almost all disappeared, so a lot of people who bought it will likely sell it for a big loss. And they probably won’t talk about it. Especially with all the bragging going on about how much their friends and family made on the rise up- assuming they sold it at a profit. FOMO can cost you. 

So finally - what are the lessons to take away from all this?

Lesson #1 - while everyone loves a great David vs Goliath story- be aware that sometimes there is more to the story.

Lesson #2 - Trading stocks is really risky and this kind of trading-where you are buying a stock not based on any connection to the actual business of the company- is not investing - it is gambling. So only use the money you would take with you to a casino. 

Lesson #3 Beware of the hype and think twice before getting on the bandwagon. Yes, a lot of small investors are out there bragging about how much they made off Gamestop and other similar situations. But a lot of people lost money, or are holding stock that is well below what they paid and will likely sell it at a loss. 

As for my take, it’s never a good feeling to know that many well meaning people took risks they didn’t understand and lost money, I am glad that this got so many non-investors interested in learning more about the stock market. And even though that interest was motivated by momentum driven trading, my hope is that eventually that will evolve into learning about thoughtful, intentional and strategic investing, that will help all of us reach out grownup financial goals. 

Thanks everyone for joining me- for more money tips and advice- plus lots of giveaways please go to my website bobbirebell.com and sign up for the grownup list. 

I love bringing you this podcast and it is and always will be free to you but there are a number of ways that you can support the show if you enjoy it. 

Number one- tell a friend about it. 

Number two- take a screenshot and share on social media

Number three- write a review on apple podcasts

And finally- do a little responsible shopping on my grownupgear.com website. It’s got t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags and more- all tied to being grownups. The products make great gifts, for friends, family and co-workers, and even for yourself. 

Thanks everyone, for joining me and for being financial grownups. 

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Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

 
Advice, Business, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Financial Independence, Investing, Money, Personal FinanceGuest Usergamestop, wall street, stock market, robinhood, stocks, reddit
How to hold down two dream jobs at once with Cosmo Op-Ed Editor and novelist, Jessica Goodman
How to hold down two dream jobs at once with Cosmo Op-Ed Editor and novelist, Jessica Goodman

When Jessica Goodman landed a book deal, and later a TV deal for her debut novel “They Wish They Were us” many people though she would go full time on her side-hustle. But Goodman says that was never the plan, and explains why and how she blends the finances and demands of her two dream jobs.

Jessica Goodman -Insta (4).png

In Jessica’s Money Story she shares:

-How she started writing her e first book, “They Wish They Were Us.”after having the idea for years.

-How she researched what is involved in selling a book to a publisher, including getting an agent

-How she kept her employer, Cosmopolitan Magazine informed and supportive of her book writing side hustle

-How an advance works for an author, including the tax implications

-What she wishes she knew about being an author and how much they are paid before she wrote and sold the book

-How she was able to adapt her schedule to both her full time job at Cosmopolitan Magazine, and writing books

-What you need to know about how a full time job works compared to being a self-employed author, including quarterly taxes

-When you should think about bringing in an accountant.

In Jessica’s Money Lesson you will learn:

-Why and how you should re-evaluate the way you think about money

-The best strategies to manage money when you are paid inconsistently in chunks

-How she and her partner adapted their spending during the pandemic

-How to resist it when people who care about you give you bad financial advice

Jessica’s Money Tip:

-Even if you live in a small space it can pay to buy in bulk during quarantine (and maybe after!)

-Think of non-traditional items that you would not have used as much at home- like buying wine by the case

-Tips about ordering groceries online including having the heaviest items delivered

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. If you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.


Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Get a system going and understand that you might miss out on things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.


Episode Links:


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  • Twitter - @bobbirebell


    Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Full transcript of show:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees. Much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Jessica Goodman:

When I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. You publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey friends, do you have a passion project or a side hustle? One you dream of doing full time one day and maybe getting to ditch that day job? Well, Cosmopolitan's Jessica Goodman had a passion project that she was quietly working on for years. And that was to be an author. Her debut novel, a murder mystery set in an elite private school called They Wish They Were Us ended up being such a hit that it is now being made into a TV series, starring Halsey and Euphoria's Sydney Sweeney. Fast-forward and Jessica has now scored a book for a second novel that is already coming out this summer. So all systems go on the dream career, right? Well, not so fast. To the surprise of quite a few people in her life, rather than ditch, she doubled down, staying on a Cosmopolitan magazine where she is currently the op-ed editor.

Bobbi Rebell:

In our interview, Jessica shares why she is sticking with the day job, goes through exactly how she manages her time and gets candid about what she wishes she knew about before diving into the book business, including, well, a lot of tech stuff. For those of you new to the Financial Grownup Podcast, welcome. I'm so glad that you are here. We talk with financial grownups here about money stories that impacted their lives and the lessons learned from those stories. We also ask them to bring along an everyday money tip that we can put to work right away. Spoiler alert. Jessica's has to do with how she and her partner buy their wine. So stay tuned for her tip on that. And with that, let's get to this week's interview. Here is Cosmo op-ed editor and author of They Wish They Were Us, Jessica Goodman.

Bobbi Rebell:

Jessica Goodman, I'm so excited to finally have you on the show. You are definitely a financial grownup. Welcome.

Jessica Goodman:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

And happy 2021, a year when your second, soon to be bestseller is going to be released. Before we get into your money story, tell us a little bit about each of your books just briefly.

Jessica Goodman:

So my first book, They Wish They Were Us came out in August and it is a young adult thriller that follows a high school senior, Jill Newman, who is in a very exclusive society within her Long Island prep school. And at the beginning of the book, she is reflecting on the fact that her best friend died when she was a freshman and she was also part of this society. And soon after the book begins, she starts getting text messages that say that her best friend Shayla didn't die the way that everybody thinks she did. And so what follows is kind of a whodunit, murder mystery set in this very exclusive prep school. And it's really an exploration of privilege and friendship and peer pressure. And I kind of like to say that it's like Gossip Girl meets Pretty Little Liars, meets A Secret History. It's really fun. And it's being adapted into a TV series, starring Sydney Sweeney and Halsey. So if those people are on your brain, I think you might enjoy.

Jessica Goodman:

And then I also have a new book coming out this summer. It's called, They'll Never Catch Us. It's currently available for pre-order wherever books are sold. And it is also a young adult thriller about two super competitive sisters who run cross country. And they're both trying to be the best on their team and in the state. And they threaten to kind of lose the number one and two spots when a new girl comes to town. And then soon after she arrives, she also disappears. And everybody in the town begins to suspect that the sisters had something to do with it. So that's where my brain has been for the past couple of months, which is really exciting.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is really exciting. What's amazing to me, and I think our listeners will really enjoy hearing about this is while you are doing this, this is actually really a side hustle to your primary job. You have been in a number of different positions at Cosmopolitan magazine. You're currently the op-ed editor. Did I get that right?

Jessica Goodman:

You did. And I'm very impressed that you didn't trip up over the ed editor because I always do when I say it out loud and I have to be like, oh wait, no, this is my job.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is your job now, you are still working there with one book out, another one on the way. So for your money story, I've asked you to kind of talk about how that happened, especially the money-related decisions that you had to make along the way to make this happen. Having a very full-time job at Cosmo. And then on the side, writing this book. It was a lot of choices you had to make I would say. Tell us your money story.

Jessica Goodman:

Definitely. Yeah, so many choices along the way. When I started writing the first book, They Wish They Were Us. And I really started writing it in earnest after having kind of dabbled with it for many years. In earnest, I started working on it in like 2015, 2016. I would say. I didn't get to the point where I thought I could actually sell it and be a professional author until maybe like 2018. And that's when I got connected with my agent and we started working towards being able to sell it. But I did a lot of research into how one becomes an author. I was literally Googling like, how do you publish a book? Like, how do you find an agent? Like what is a book advance? Like all of these kinds of really basic questions that I just had no idea what it was all about.

Jessica Goodman:

And I basically found out that it's really, really, really difficult to publish and sell a book. And that be your sole income or your sole career, like one book basically. And so it was never really an option for me to quit my ... Like I never thought about quitting my jobs in journalism while I was trying to sell the book. So it was always just like, how can I make both of these dreams come true at the same time? And so we sold the book, They Wish They Were Us, in the fall of 2018. And we got an advance, which is what they call the income that you make from selling your book. And publishers usually split it up into a few big chunks. For mine, it was like, I got a chunk of money when I signed the contract, a chunk of money when I turned in the book and then a chunk of money when the book came out. And when, at least when I was like a little kid, I was like, oh my God. It's like you publish a book and you become a millionaire. That's just like how it works. But in reality, I learned that was not the case. And it's certainly like a fantastic thing to have of course, but it's not the kind of financial gains that I originally thought it would be. And I think that a lot of people think about when they think of like someone getting a book advance. Like I said, it was always like a no-brainer that I would keep my job, but I really had to learn how to prioritize both jobs to be able to do them well. So my schedule when I'm being my best self is that I write in the morning before work, usually from seven to nine. And then I do my job from ten to whenever. And then I write on the weekends as well. It's certainly hard at some points, especially at my job at Cosmo, I cover the news, especially like elections and special elections and anything relating to, like having to do with politics. So obviously this past year was hard to balance everything.

Bobbi Rebell:

Were you open with your bosses about these efforts, or was it something you kept private?

Jessica Goodman:

When the book deal actually happened, I went in and told my boss, hey, I just want to give you a heads up that like this happened and it's not going to affect the work that I do here. Like, I really wanted to make sure that they knew that I wasn't about to quit basically, that I was just like, this is just something that I'm doing for myself and my personal dreams. But like, it's not going to affect my work or my productivity here. And I just wanted to give you like a courtesy heads up basically. And everybody was really supportive and they have been really supportive of the book. And so it's been lovely honestly, but I definitely have heard some horror stories at other companies. But I think when you work in a field that's somewhat like adjacent to whatever your side hustle is, it does make it a little bit easier for people to understand why you might be doing something or how it won't interfere with your responsibilities.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you wish you knew in terms of the book business and the financial aspects of it? What do you wish you knew ahead of time? You mentioned that you get the bulk payments and you kind of had this idea as a child that authors become millionaires.

Jessica Goodman:

Yeah, I think something that I definitely wish that I knew was like taxes. Like I think if you're like me and you've really only had a job that you get a salary and benefits from your employer, it's really difficult to self-manage money that comes in chunks, whether you're a freelance writer or you're your own boss and you're not part of like a company. I think it's really difficult to know things like, oh, I have to pay quarterly taxes on this income. Or like, oh, I don't know how much money to put aside from this advanced check that I got, because that advance doesn't reflect the taxes I need to pay on it. So I ended up working with an accountant because I had no idea how to navigate this on my own. And I wanted to make sure that I was doing everything by the book.

Jessica Goodman:

And I wasn't going to get dinged at the end of the fiscal year because I have heard horror stories of people getting, like a $100,000 of their advance, spending it, and then not realizing that they needed to pay however many tens of thousands of dollars of taxes on that. And like, oh my God, what a nightmare. Or even realizing that I had to pay quarterly taxes on like freelance income was the real shock to me. So I got an accountant kind of like late in the game, I would say. And I wish I had got one, like even before the first check came in to like really help me navigate that.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the lesson for our listeners, from this story? What's your advice to people thinking about whether it's writing a novel or any kind of side hustle where they're going to have to hold on to their job?

Jessica Goodman:

I think for me, it was really reevaluating the way that I thought about money. Like I think after having been in jobs where like I got a salary check every other week. That was like, okay, like I know what my monthly expenses are. I know how much my rent is. I know how much my utilities are. Like, I know how much I spend on groceries. Like all that stuff that they tell you. And I knew how to manage that money. Like I knew how much I might be able to save, how much I would need to pay my credit card bill, like all this stuff. But when you get these like big chunks of money, or even just smaller chunks of money from like freelance gigs or whatever, I think it can feel really tempting to just kind of spend it immediately. Even if you're the type of person who is really invested in saving and planning for your future, I think it's hard to conceptualize like how much money you might need for stuff. And especially this year, when I wasn't interested in spending a lot of money at all, based on the kind of times we're in, I splurged on a few things and those things I was thinking about them before we hopped on the call. Those are the things that I really splurged on this year where I turned 30 and I bought myself $80 worth of oysters that were shipped from Cape Cod and an oyster shucker. And that's how I spent my 30th birthday with my partner. We shucked like 50 oysters and save the additional, however many for the next day. And it was such a treat and it was so much fun and something that I'll remember forever. And I bought myself a $90 tie dyed sweatsuit because I am a millennial and on Instagram and it just looked really cozy. And those were like my two big splurges of the year.

Jessica Goodman:

And I know a lot of people, when they get like a book advancer or kind of achieve these really big milestones, they're like, I'm going to buy myself a really expensive piece of jewelry or a fancy handbag, or even like house or whatever. And I mean, I think all of those things are fantastic, but for me, the lesson for me, the lesson here was like, all right, I don't really have anything that I'm ready to splurge on that big right now. I really want to like, save all of this money as much as I can. And those are the things I'm going to splurge on, like oysters and a tie dyed sweatsuit. And knowing that like my big splurge might come later. Like I am saving up to buy a house with my partner. And I think that like my book advance will of course go towards that.

Jessica Goodman:

But realizing that like, I didn't need to spend it all right away I think was a huge revelation, especially because so many people were like, what are you going to treat yourself to? Like your book just came out, like, what are you going to do to mark the occasion? And I didn't really do that much because it just didn't feel right for me. Those were my splurges.

Bobbi Rebell:

I love it. I love the idea of oysters. So tell us your everyday money tip.

Jessica Goodman:

Oh yes. Okay. So this is one that I really got to be obsessed with during the pandemic. Like I am not the type of person that should or would traditionally buy in bulk. Like I live with one other person. We live in a one bedroom apartment. It's very small. We don't have a lot of storage space, but this year I became the kind of person that buys in bulk. Obviously, so many people are doing this during the pandemic, but I don't think I really realized how much you actually save when you buy in bulk and you know what you're going to use in those bulk quantities. And I think the pandemic has really shown people like what they actually use and what is actually important to them. And so for us, like there were a few things that really changed the way I thought about this. One was I started doing like subscribe and save Amazon paper towels and toilet paper. And actually I had done this pre run out of toilet paper in like March moment. So I pat myself on the back for knowing that would be a thing.

Jessica Goodman:

But I think I did the math recently. And it was like if I were to buy a few rolls every time I went to the grocery store, I would spend nearly twice the amount that I do just doing subscribe and save and having them shipped directly to my house. And even though they just sit in boxes in like a corner of our apartment. Because again, small one bedroom apartment, I think it's like totally worth it for us. And the other way that I found this to be really useful was we started buying our wine in cases, which a year ago I would have said like, are you okay? Like what's going on here?

Jessica Goodman:

But my local wine shop, they started offering a 15% discount if you bought a case of wine. And so we basically did the math and we were like, well, we'd be losing money if we didn't do this. And we don't go through them that quickly. I mean, it's no brainer how much money you save. We started looking for ways that you could buy in bulk and save like that. Like the fancy coffee shop near us. If you buy beans in bulk, it's like the same thing. And all these companies now do like subscribe and save membership things, like there's so many coffee ones where like every week they'll send you a bag of beans or whatever. And I think like looking for those has really been super helpful for us and certainly cut down on how we spend.

Jessica Goodman:

The other thing about like this buying in bulk grocery shopping thing is I heard this tip from Carla Lalli Music who used to work at Bon Appetit and now is she's like a chef home cook person on Instagram and has like a fantastic cookbook. But her big tip was always like, if you're ordering groceries, like order all the heavy stuff that's going to be delivered to your apartment. So you don't have to carry stuff, especially in an apartment. And that has been so helpful to me too, where it's like, every time I do like a big shop online or Instacart or Whole Foods or whatever, I get like 10 cans of beans, because like, I don't want to carry that. Or like four jugs of olive oil or like four twelve packs of seltzer because yes, you're buying in bulk. And sometimes you can get discounts that way, but also like who wants to carry that stuff home?

Bobbi Rebell:

Definitely good to always make your life easier. Especially if you are paying those fees to have it delivered. You want to get the most out of that delivery fee. Jessica, thank you so much for being with us, tell us where people can find out more about you. We know your books are available everywhere. We don't know when is the TV series coming.

Jessica Goodman:

TBD on the TV series, but you can stay up to date with all of that info on my Instagram, which is @JessicaGoodman or Twitter @JessGood. And I also have a website goodmanjessica.com. Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. My friends let's do this. Financial Grownup tip number one, Jessica shared that she regretted not taking the time and advanced to understand the financial impact of having both a W2 job, that's a full time job, and self-employment income. Whenever you start a new venture that might bring in revenue, check in with a tax professional. And by the way, if you are at a full-time job, read through those benefits, go to your HR website because the truth is many companies allow you to enroll in a free or low cost legal plan where you can get that kind of advice in a very affordable way.Financial Grownup tip number two, get a system going and understand that you might miss things if you want to reach your goals. Jessica was pretty candid about her commitment to her writing routine. To get to what you want to accomplish, most of us are going to have to be deliberate and to make room for something like writing a novel, when you aren't at your day job, you probably will have to give some things up.

Bobbi Rebell:

I had so much fun talking with Jessica and her book was really, really a page turner. As I mentioned, it is a murder mystery. And for the record, I really was totally fooled. I didn't see the twists and turns coming. One thing that I've really loved during our forced stayed home time during this pandemic has been catching up on reading fiction and really getting lost in books. We're going to be giving away a few signed copies of Jessica's book to that end so please make sure you are on the Grownup list ASAP so you don't miss that. Just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you can sign up for free.

Bobbi Rebell:

Now while you are there, please check out my big project that I have been working on. I am so excited to see what you guys think. It is the new Grownup Gear Shop. It's a passion project of mine, and I hope you guys will all support it. Podcasts listeners can get 10% off if you use the code “Jessica” within one week of this episode dropping. So just go to my website, bobbirebell.com, and you'll see the word shop, click on there. Check it out. I hope you guys like it. Big thanks to author Jessica Goodman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:

Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Advice, Authors, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Financial Independence, Journalists, Millennial Superstars, Personal Finance, Money, Podcasts, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanJessica Goodman, They Wish They Were Us, bobbi rebell, new fiction books, new mystery books, new YA books, cosmopolitan, editor
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 Things You Can Control About the Price You Pay for College with Author Ron Lieber 
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 Things You Can Control About the Price You Pay for College with Author Ron Lieber 

Author Ron Lieber returns to the Financial Grownup podcast to preview his new book "The Price You Pay for College”and share tips on the best ways to control college costs, including debunking some big myths about why college is so expensive and who gets how much aid, and why. 

Tip #1:

There is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called Merit Aid. Rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can. Figure out whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes. You have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Tip #2

You can appeal the financial aid package you receive from these colleges. The need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. You may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need-based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid. That's going to give you the best chance of success.

Tip #3

Save the “right” way. There's this idea out there that you need to make a choice between saving for your retirement and saving for college for your kids. You can do both. Borrowing for college may not be for some families. This idea also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time. The financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Tip #4

You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children. We do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. You don't get, make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old. So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Tip #5

What we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, our spouses, or even our exes. We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt. The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us. We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Full Transcript of Episode:

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works.

Bobbi Rebell:

You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest Splitit gives you more spending power.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit, split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com. Financial grownup guide, five things you can control about the price you pay for college with author Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell author of, 'How To Be a Financial Grownup.' But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money, but it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hello, my friends, for all our talk about budgeting, spending, penny pinching in some cases, looking at the prices of everything we buy. Most of us, our parents, our children, friends, we buy one really big ticket item that we shop for without actually getting to see the real price that we will pay. I am of course, talking about college. And while yes, we can see the full retail price on many university's websites, the majority of us actually, aren't going to pay that price.

Bobbi Rebell:

In fact, I learned in Ron Lieber's new book, "The Price You Pay for College" that only 11% pay that price. So then the question is how much of a discount can we get, and how is that decided? Welcome everyone here on the Financial Grownup podcast, we talk about money issues that matter to us as we move through adulthood and college certainly qualifies.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber, the New York Times Your Money Columnist, who was first on the podcast in 2018, talking about how he got into school is now back to give us a peek at his very grownup book, "The Price You Pay for College," an entirely new roadmap for the biggest financial decision your family will ever make. Yeah, that's the truth. Like so much of our lives these days, there are lot of things that we can't control. So I asked Ron to tell us what we can control, and he did a little myth-busting along the way. Here is Ron Lieber.

Bobbi Rebell:

Ron Lieber welcome back to the podcast and congratulations on your new book, "The Price You Pay for College."

Ron Lieber:
It's great to be back. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

What inspired this book before we get into your tips about the things that we can control about the price that we all pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, this book is both personal and professional. It's personal because, I have a 15 year-old ninth grader and a five-year-old kindergartener. I live in New York city with extremely high costs and it's a two journalist household. So we're not exactly rolling at it. So this is going to be hard for our daughters to have the same kinds of choices that my wife and I had albeit for me with a whole bunch of need-based financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

So it's personal, but it's also professional because readers kept getting in touch and expressing marvel, but also alarm at the fact that the rack rate for the most expensive colleges in the country had passed $300,000 for four years and even the flagship state universities.

Ron Lieber:

Many of them are now more than a hundred grand for four years. So you've got a $200,000 gap between them and these readers were saying to me, "Hey, we live in the era of big data, where's the big dataset that explains why NYU is $200,000 better than SUNY Binghamton." I did not know and it felt like a new question to me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well you answer a lot of the questions in the book? And unfortunately there is a lot about this process that we simply cannot control, but I want to focus for our grownup audience on the things that we can control. And we've got a list of a few things we're going to go through. What is the first one? What can we control when it comes to the price we pay for college?

Ron Lieber:

Well, you can control what you know, right? You can learn how the system works. One of the things that continues to amaze me is the number of sophisticated people who are extremely successful in their own chosen fields of employment who show up in my inbox or in my text messages in March or April of their child's senior year in high school.

Ron Lieber:

And they have no idea what has hit them. They have no idea that there is now a whole separate parallel track of the financial aid system called merit aid. And that rich people can take advantage of it just as much as low income people can.

Bobbi Rebell:

And that's kind of one of the reasons why college has gotten so expensive in fact, is that it's become the sort of vicious cycle.

Ron Lieber:

One of the things that's made it also complicated for the people who run these schools, it's not just the pricing wars going on in the background, although that certainly helps drive down revenue and the net tuition revenue per student. But one of the things that we can't control as individuals and the schools have a lot of trouble controlling, is that people good ones, well trained people cost money, right?

Ron Lieber:

Professors spend, a minimum of five years in graduate training and Economics 101 suggests that, people who need to spend that long learning and training ought to be compensated at an above average rate. There are also more administrators than there used to be for every 1000 undergraduates. But that's mostly because we like it that way, right?

Ron Lieber:

We want disabled kids to have access. We want kids with mental health issues to have access. We want there to be a good counseling center on all of that. So, we get the administrators, we demand in the marketplace. But it is not cheap to run these places and if we made them more efficient, we might not like the result.

Bobbi Rebell:

So for parents that want merit aid, how can we control merit aid and how much we can get for our child or for kids going to college, if you're a teenager listening to this?

Ron Lieber:

Well, the first thing you have to be able to figure out is whether a school offers it at all and in what volume and for the more selective schools that do offer merit aid, it is often quite difficult to figure out what is going on behind the scenes.

Ron Lieber:

I think of schools like, Oberlin or Connecticut College, relatively Tony Brand’s private schools. A lot of fancy kids go there. They don't really want to talk about this. They're ashamed that they've got to, get in there and slug it out in the marketplace.

Ron Lieber:

And so you have to go hunting for data that is usually publicly available, but it is not kind of digested or regurgitated in a way that's useful. You have to look at something called the common data set and do a search for section H-2A and there you will figure out, you will see what percentage of people who have no demonstrated financial need, still get scholarships anyway and in what amounts.

Bobbi Rebell:

Another thing I was shocked about that you talk about in your book that people can control is if they do get a financial aid package, they can appeal it.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. There are a lot of people who don't know that this is the case as well. And it gets a little messy, right? Because the need-based financial aid packages come from the financial aid office. But the merit aid awards come from admissions. So depending on which awards you have, you may need to file your appeal to different people.

Ron Lieber:

And then when you do, you may need to make different sorts of arguments because with the need- based crew, you generally need to prove that your financial circumstances have changed since you originally applied for financial aid.

Ron Lieber:

That's going to give you the best chance of success. With merit aid, it's more likely to be a kind of haggling where you go to the admissions office and say, "Look, you're my first choice, but this school that you compete with down the road that I would actually really rather not go to has offered me $6,000 more per year. Can you help me out please? Did I make a mistake in my application to you that maybe may have made you value me less than your competitor."

Bobbi Rebell:

Let's get into other things that people can control. There's a lot of myths about how to save, where to save and how much to save to get the best opportunity in terms of support from the college. What should people be doing? What can they control there?

Ron Lieber:

Well, let's go through a couple of the maxims here that are repeated as truths in financial planning and in personal finance, journalism, by people who ought to know better that are not actually true. First of all, there's this idea out there that if you need to make a choice between saving for retirement and saving for college, you should save for retirement because you can't borrow for retirement. That implies a couple of things.

Ron Lieber:

First of all, that borrowing for college is necessarily and always a good idea, and it may not be for some families. But it also implies that you can't borrow for retirement, which is not true. You can borrow for retirement using reverse mortgage if you have equity in your home.

Ron Lieber:

So, I hate things that are presented as maxims. They're actually based in factual inaccuracies. Then there's this other one that's more directly college-related, which is that if you save money for college, you will be penalized for that come financial aid time.

Ron Lieber:

So there's a whole bunch of problems with this. I mean, first of all, the financial aid formulas have much more to do with your income than they do with your assets. It is true that your assets will be tapped. And some people think that that means that they will be taxed. But, I would argue if you've got assets, it's only fair that you should have to use them before the school uses its own resources to support you. And let me also say this, right?

Ron Lieber:

I have never run into a family that regrets having saved for college. And I know personally that when that 529 statement comes every quarter, opening it up, makes me feel great about myself. It makes me feel great that whatever other failings I may have as a parent or as a human being this I am doing right for my kids.

Bobbi Rebell:

And speaking of your kids, that's also something you can control. You can control the way that you frame a college and where you present the choices to your children.

Ron Lieber:

It's true. Look, I mean, we do not have to cede decision-making authority on college to our children. It is not the case that just because they work hard, they should be able to go wherever they want. That's not how it works when this thing that they are chasing costs today, as much as $325,000 for University of Chicago at the rack rate, right? You don't get to make that kind of choice all by yourself when you're 17 years old.

Ron Lieber:

So, we do have some control there and we have some control over how, and when we introduce these concepts to them, because to me, it's only fair that a rising ninth grader ought to know what their parent or parents ability to pay for college might be. What their willingness to pay for college might be too and also, how the system of wheeling and dealing and discounting actually works so that if they so choose, they can position themselves to be in the best possible spot as an applicant.

Bobbi Rebell:

And the final thing I want to talk about is our own emotions. There's the cliche, "Keeping up with the Joneses" and everyone says, "Oh, I just want what's best for my child." But people get pretty emotional. This for many parents, it's a reflection on, it's almost like, did they get an A+ in parenting, depending on where their child goes to school. They want that sticker on the car, right?

Ron Lieber:

I am so glad you bring this up. Obviously the students have a tendency to be emotional. They're getting ready to leave home, they feel like it's competitive. They want to be able to hold their head up in the community. They want what they want and that's normal for adolescents.

Ron Lieber:

But what we tend to miss as parents is that we are not having emotionally honest conversations with ourselves, with our spouses if we have one, with our exes, if we have some of those about the feelings that all of this invokes and evokes, right? We're not talking about fear that our kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder if we make the wrong choice or they make the wrong choice. We don't talk about guilt, right? The guilt that we have, that we didn't save more, or we don't want to spend more, or we're not doing what our parents were able to do for us.

Ron Lieber:

And so therefore we should borrow $150,000 per kid, right? We don't have those conversations out loud. And we certainly don't talk about our own elitism and snobbery and how we feel about these institutions. The way we think that an admissions offer might reflect back on us and our family or even about the snobbery and elitism of the institutions that will be in the market for our 22 year-olds when they graduate. And the way in which those elitist institutions might look down on one school as opposed to another.

Bobbi Rebell:

Very interesting. And it's true in schools, one of the myths that you dispel in the book is that schools, they have all these things you joke about the lazy river and the rock climbing wall. I mean, that is something that is eye candy for students. That's not the reason that schools are so expensive by the way.

Ron Lieber:

No, I mean, these are really fun things to go gawk at and talk about and old school types will snicker and think that everything's gone to rot. But I don't blame the schools for this. I mean, these 18 year olds want to continue to live in the manner to which they become accustomed.

Ron Lieber:

And all of a sudden in a generation we've gone from, having a VCR in your room and a private phone line, and your own camcorder, being a luxury to everybody walking around with this little rectangle that like does all of those things and then some, right?

Ron Lieber:

We just have a way higher standard of living that we used to. And so it doesn't surprise me that a bunch of institutions would want to raise the quality of the lived experience for their undergraduates. I would argue that this is market driven. It's not driven by the institutions and it doesn't actually cost a ton. Again, it's the people who cost money at the schools, not the amenities.

Bobbi Rebell:

Right. And that's a big, big myth that you bust in the book. I loved your book. I hope lots of people pick it up because it is eye-opening about so many things that I thought were true that are not true like that last example. Ron, where can people be in touch with you?

Ron Lieber:

Yeah, I am itching to get back out on the road again, but it's probably not going to happen until November at the earliest. So I will be all over the internet. The best way to catch up with me is to sign up for my newsletter, which I promise I don't send out all that often. But if you go to ronlieber.com and just drop your first name and your email address in there, you can keep up with me and I will continue to send notes and notices about where I will be appearing via zoom. And I'm on all the usual social channels @RonLieber.

Bobbi Rebell:
So wonderful. Thank you so much.

Ron Lieber:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay my friends. I was pretty surprised about how little at a relative basis, all those luxuries amenities costs, but I guess overall, it is a good thing that the money is going in large part to educators. Right? I would love to hear about your experiences with paying for college. You can DM me at @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, @BobbiRebell on Twitter, and please join the grownup list.

Bobbi Rebell:

We share recommendations of books, podcasts, and other fun things to level up your grownup life, plus we are doing giveaways of books from the authors on the show and exclusive financial grownup merchandise. Just go to my website, Bobbirebell.com to sign up. Big thanks to, "The Price You Pay for College" author, Ron Lieber for helping us all be financial grownups. Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Family + Relationships, Career, Authors, Advice, Business, Financial Aid, Financial Grownup Guides, Money, Student DebtBobbi Rebell KaufmanFinancial Grownup, money expert, Money Lessons, Money tips, Ron Lieber, college savings, College Students, financial aid resources, merit aid, university, saving money for college, Financial Grownup Guide
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 Ways to use the Power of Rituals for a Fresh Start in 2021 with Erica Keswin
Financial Grownup Guide: 5 Ways to use the Power of Rituals for a Fresh Start in 2021 with Erica Keswin

Author Erica Keswin returns to the Financial Grownup podcast to discuss her new book Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines Into Workplace Magic. Erica shares specific, free and low cost ways to use rituals to improve productivity, increase a sense of safety and belonging, as well as purpose both for work and for life.

Erica Keswin -Insta - FINAL -PNG.png

Tip #1:

Begin and end with intention. Beginnings and endings are prime rituals real estate. So be aware of how you start and end your day, and do something that makes you feel most like you.

Tip #2:

Take breaks. We need to build in rituals to actually get up and move.

Tip #3:

Make sure that you're staying connected. We are all feeling isolated and lonely and we're really wired for connection. This may look like scheduling a phone call with a friend. We can build that ritual in once a week or once a month for us to stay connected.

Tip #4:

Give back. If there's ever a time to building a ritual around gratitude, it's 2021. I do believe it's something that many of us started in 2020 that we need to really focus on. There's a lot of data around the impact of gratitude on performance and how we feel in general.

Tip #5:

Build in some rituals to have fun. These days can feel long and heavy and just because it's 2021, that doesn’t mean the pandemic went away. So we need to build in some time for fun, some time for silliness and not feel guilty about it.

Get Erica’s new book, Rituals Roadmap, here

Get all of Erica’s books here

Full Show Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell :

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money, and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy.

Bobbi Rebell :

So, if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable, and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power. I know, I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have. Go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup Guide. Five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021 with author Erica Keswin. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Okay, my friends, if ever there was a time we really need to find ways to cope with chaos, total chaos, things we never thought could possibly happen, it is now. And so the timing could not be better to bring back my friend, Erica Keswin to give us some really powerful ways to use rituals, to help get a fresh start and really a better sense of control as we move into 2021, which so far has not been as boring as many of us had hoped it would be.

Bobbi Rebell :

Here in the Financial Grownup podcast we have two formats, one in which we share money stories and the lessons from those stories, but sometimes we like to mix things up. And we have something called Financial Grownup Guides, which focus on tips and strategies for you to live your best financial grownup life. And as Erica shared with me the details of her latest book, it was perfect for that. And even more so, given the events of early 2021.

Bobbi Rebell :

Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines Into Workplace Magic, got me thinking about the rituals I already have and brainstorming new ones to try out. And spoiler alert, not just for the workplace. Now, before I roll the interview, I also to invite everyone to join the Grownup List. We have amazing giveaways coming, including free books from our financial grownup authors. We're also building out some grownup merch, but it's not yet available for sale. You can only get it if you were on the Grownup List and win. Go to my website, bobbirebell.com to get on the List for free. We'll also leave a link in the show notes, and when you get the next newsletter, you will learn how to win the prizes.

Bobbi Rebell :

Speaking of show notes, don't feel you need to take notes on all of the great Intel Erica is going to share. We'll have it all for you in those show notes, which are available under the financial grownup dropdown again, on my website. Okay. I'm really excited for you guys to hear the interview here is Erica Keswin giving us some highlights of Rituals Roadmap. Erica, thanks for coming back to the Financial Grownup Podcast.

Erica Keswin :
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell :

Big congratulations on your next bestseller, Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines into Workplace Magic. You're going to be giving us five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021. But before we get there, first of all, tell us about the book a little bit. And then I'm going to ask you a couple of quick questions.

Erica Keswin :

Sure. I had a book in 2018 as you know because it was on your show called Bring Your Human to Work. And one of the things I realized after it came out that rituals are a tool to create a more human workplace, and to feel more connected. And I know we'll get into some of that. We can use rituals at home. We can use them at work. Right now, working home are pretty much the same thing, so they're even more important. But rituals are very accessible and there's something that we can all use in our lives. And one of the things I found over the last nine months is that they really do help us during turbulent times, especially now.

Bobbi Rebell :

Especially now, and as much as we turn the page and we're now in 2021, the reality is 2021 is likely to be full of so many surprises just as 2020 was. I want to quickly ask you a couple questions about the book and some things that you say in there that I think are particularly relevant to Financial Grownups. The first one is you say in there, the cost of rituals is minimal, but their value is priceless.

Erica Keswin :

Yes. When I started studying rituals, I came up with an equation called the three Ps. The three Ps of rituals. Rituals give us a sense of psychological safety and belonging. They give us an opportunity to connect to purpose. And if you add those two together, it equals performance. And so when I think about performance, it could be that rituals impact how our team feels more connected. It could be bottom line performance, but also performance in our personal lives, that when we have rituals in our lives, our cortisol, our stress goes down, our oxytocin, our feel good hormone goes up. We're more engaged at work. We're more engaged in life. And the book has tons of different studies and science and stories of how rituals impact our lives in really positive ways.

Bobbi Rebell :
And one thing I really enjoyed about the book is that there were a lot of specific examples of that. That we can sort of emulate in our own lives. You call rituals magic, expand a little bit on that.

Erica Keswin :

So people will say, "Well, what is a ritual?" To me, a great example is, if I'm lighting a candle, that may or may not be a ritual. If I'm sitting here lighting a candle because my lights went out, I'm just lighting a candle because I need light. A ritual is something that goes beyond its practical purpose. So if I light a candle every Friday at five o'clock to signify the transition from the workweek to the weekend, I'm almost elevating that act of lighting a candle.

Erica Keswin :

And again, it's not to give me light per se, but it does give me a sense of meaning and connection to myself and to what's going on around me. So that's really that magical element of bringing awareness and intention to what we do.

Bobbi Rebell :
And it's different from something like habits.

Erica Keswin :

Yes. I mean, I believe so. A ritual is something that if you missed it for a day or for a week, something would feel really, really off in your life. It could be if you meditate every morning, for me during the pandemic, we started quarantining on a Thursday I believe, and the following Tuesday I said, "You know what? Our family ritual is to have taco Tuesday, I'm going to do it." I saw the look on it, and my kids are older, they're they're teenagers, but the look on their faces and they were able to smell the same smell and the things that we did pre pandemic. And I was able to see firsthand the impact of maintaining some of those rituals, and how it gave them a sense of psychological safety and belonging.

Erica Keswin :

And rituals also create some order out of chaos. And so I think for everyone now, we need to think about how do we maintain some of our old rituals, but also think about, given that things are so different right now, what are new rituals that we also can add to our lives.

Bobbi Rebell :

Which leads us to the five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021 that you have brought to us.

Erica Keswin :

Great. Begin and end with intention. Beginnings and endings are what I call prime rituals real estate. So be aware of how you start your day, and do something that makes you feel most like you. It could be meditation, taking a few deep breaths or having coffee at Starbucks, which is as many people know my favorite ritual. So that's a really important place to start. It also could be how you end the day. It could be how you transition from work to home, especially when we're all doing that in basically one room. So, transition rituals are important as well.

Erica Keswin : Number two is take breaks. For me if I learned anything in 2020, it's that it's really hard to be in front of your computer all day. And so we need to build in rituals to actually get up and move. And a really fun ritual a woman just share with me recently, she calls 20 by 20 by 20. Every 20 minutes, she takes a 22nd break, 20 feet from her computer-

Bobbi Rebell : Oh I love that.

Erica Keswin :

... and stretches. And again, it's not a box check. It's this elevation of, I know this is important, it's giving me a moment, 20 seconds to connect to something outside of myself. So something that your listeners can try.

Bobbi Rebell :

Yeah. And I think that you wouldn't do that if you didn't have the ritual, because you would feel like if you were taking a break, you are interrupting your workflow and it's not going to help your productivity. But if you have it as a ritual, then that becomes something that you don't feel guilty about. In fact, you know that it's going to empower you to do better the rest of the way.

Erica Keswin :

Exactly. And it's something that you're looking forward to. And it would all of a sudden feel weird if all of a sudden three hours went by and you hadn't gotten up to do it.

Erica Keswin :

Number three is to make sure that you're staying connected. Whether you live alone or living with five other people as I'm doing right now, we are all feeling isolated and lonely and we're really wired for connection. And so, one of the things I've been doing as part of my rituals is to say, "I am going to reach out to some friends and check-in, schedule those phone calls. I have one friend where, and this is actually how you and I met the first time we went for a walk around the reservoir in New York, so maybe when we're both back in New York, we can build that ritual in, you know, once a week or once a month for us to stay connected.

Erica Keswin :

But it's been really nice to get off of Zoom, outside in nature with a friend on a regular time, you know, once a week. So staying connected is number three. Number four is giving back. And I do think that if there's ever a time to building a ritual around gratitude, it's 2021. And that could be anything from coming together with your kids and talking about what you're grateful for, figuring out how you want to give back as a family, you know, the beginning of quarantine, living in New York city, checking in an elderly neighbor, dropping off groceries, I do believe it's something that many of us started in 2020 that we need to really focus on. And there's a lot of data around the impact of gratitude on performance and how we feel in general.

Bobbi Rebell :
And part of a ritual can be involving your entire family.

Erica Keswin :

Yes, 100%. And the kids need to, and they want to. Once they get into it and see the impact on how they feel. I mean, I know we both have seen that firsthand. And last and definitely not least, I'm trying to build in some rituals to have fun. These days can feel long and heavy, and as you said in the beginning, just because it's now on the calendar 2021, it's not as if the pandemic went away. I mean, some people woke up depressing, wow, it's 2021 and things still feel the same. And so we need to build in some time for fun, some time for silliness and not feel guilty about it.

Erica Keswin :

You and I have a mutual friend in Randi Zuckerberg, and she shared with me that on Fridays, and she has little kids, so I think that this connects with the under 10 set, but her family has dessert before dinner on Fridays. And they all think it's like the most hilarious thing.

Bobbi Rebell :
Oh, I think any family will go for that. I think kids of all ages will be on board with that ritual.

Erica Keswin :

You know, or on the company side I've worked, spoke with a group at LinkedIn that has a one-minute dance party every day at three o'clock and they just get up and they let loose, they did it in person, you can do it remote. But again, we need-

Bobbi Rebell :

Erica, I want to see you get your twin daughters to do the one minute dance ritual every day at three o'clock. I think that'd be great.

Erica Keswin :

They would, they probably would want me to film it and put it on my social media, which I have to get special permission to do now. But what we do to have fun is every Monday, our entire family, my husband, my 15 year old son and my dog, we all watch the Bachelor. That is our guilty pleasure. We laugh so hard and we are actually this year doing a bracket like a final four bracket-

Bobbi Rebell : Oh my gosh.

Erica Keswin :
... of the Bachelor.

Bobbi Rebell : I love it.

Erica Keswin :

but be intentional and build in some rituals for fun because we all need it, and it's contagious.

Bobbi Rebell :

Well, there're a lot of great ideas and specific examples in your book. So everyone should check it out. Where can people learn more about you? And I assume the book is going to be available pretty much everywhere.

Erica Keswin :

So you can find me, my email is my name, ericakeswin.com, which is K-E-S as in Sam W-I-N.com. You can sign up for my monthly-ish newsletter to hear more about the book. On the website, there's lots of places, as you said, to order the book from Amazon to Barnes & Noble to the Strand, I'm trying to support local bookstores. And I really do believe that rituals now more than ever can help us through these turbulent times. They don't have to cost a penny, but the impact is priceless

Bobbi Rebell :
Very well said. Thank you so much.

Erica Keswin :
Thanks, Bobby. I can't wait to see you in person.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right my friends. What was your favorite ritual that Erica talked about? For me, definitely dessert before dinner. But most of you guys would guess that pretty quickly. Taco Tuesday though, definitely a classic we can all go for. I would love to hear from you. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 or on Twitter @bobbirebell, let me know what rituals you and your family and your coworkers use. A lot of the stuff is for work, but frankly, work and home is kind of the same thing these days.

Bobbi Rebell :

Anyway, I'm also really excited about the changes that we're making to the Grownup List. It's going to be coming out pretty reliably I hope, that's the plan once a month. And I want you guys to join ASAP by going to my website, bobbirebell.com because we are going to be doing a lot of giveaways, including author books like Erica's. We're going to be giving away a number of signed copies of that. And also other authors that are appearing on the show. We have a lot of really amazing ones.

Bobbi Rebell :

And as I mentioned at the top of the show, we are developing some merchandise and some really cool stuff that we are going to give away at first, because we're still setting up the store and we want to see what you guys like and get some feedback. So you can be our beta testers and win some free merch. Just get on the Grownup List again at my website. And of course, don't forget to pick up a copy of Erica Keswin's book, Rituals Roadmap. And if you like it, recommend it to friends. We could all use some calming rituals right now. And of course, big thanks to other Erica Keswin for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.



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Family + Relationships, Entrepreneurs, Career, Business, Authors, Advice, Financial Aid, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Financial Independence, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell Kaufmanrituals, erica keswin, workplace magic, finance, money, financial grownup
Financial Grownup Guide: 3 Ways to Rewire Your Brain for Financial Success with Author Barbara Huson
Financial Grownup Guide: 3 Ways to Rewire Your Brain for Financial Success with Author Barbara Huson

Author Barbara Huson joins the Financial Grownup podcast to share her research and insights on a new way to approach learning about money and wealth, as well as preview her latest book Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success

Get Barbara’s new book, Rewire for Wealth here.

Get all of Barbara’s books along with other books by Financial Grownups here.

Barbara’s Steps to Rewire Your Brain for Wealth

Step #1 -

Start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. Separate yourself from the thought.

Step #2-

The second step is reframing your negative thoughts to see it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought.

Step #3-

The third step is you respond differently. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Episode Links:

Follow Barbara!


Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT-

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. Now, we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online, and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So, if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power. I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it, and I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have. Go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Three ways to rewire your brain for financial success with Rewire for Wealth author Barbara Huson. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. You know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey, everyone. Hope you guys are well despite all the chaos going on in the world. It's pretty hard to just keep functioning in daily life, but that's what a lot of us have to kind of find a way to keep doing. I've been continuing to work on my book, tentatively called Launching Financial Grownups, and I'm really taking some time to focus, to refocus, I should say, more on this podcast, which I love doing this podcast for you guys. Some of you know I made a big decision coming into this new year to take a sabbatical from my other podcast, Money with Friends with Joe Saul-Sehy. There was literally no way I was going to get my book done anywhere near the spring deadline, so I needed a jolt and this is what I had to do.

Bobbi Rebell:

Coming into the new year, I think a lot of us can benefit from a jolt and just kind of waking up and seeing things maybe a little differently. We've been dealing with a lot of the same old, same old. A lot of us have gotten into ruts, not surprising given everything going on, but look, we've been quarantining and sometimes this can be a good time for a change in mindset, even though yeah, the new year is sort of an artificial way of marking it. But I think there's something about coming into a new year that can motivate us to change our mindset. So on that note, this week's guest is really perfect for all of that. You guys that want to join me in changing your mindset and getting remotivated, Barbara Huson is an author. She has written seven books. The best one is probably, the one that's really best-known, I should say, is Prince Charming is Not Coming. By the way, it was written not under her current married name, it was written under Barbara Stanny.

Bobbi Rebell:

She now is coming out with her number eight book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. When I first heard the title, I was a bit skeptical, but her team sent me an advanced copy, and not too far into it I was on board. That's why I'm so excited that she made the time to come on the podcast and talk about the themes in the book and how we can all integrate them into our lives. And by the way, even though the book is technically aimed at women, I really believe these strategies are truly for any gender. Before I roll the interview, I'm doing big things this year that I want to make sure to keep you guys informed about, because I'm hoping they can really help you reach a lot of your grownup goals this year.

Bobbi Rebell:

The first thing is I'm going to really be upping the ante with The Grownup List. It's been coming out... well, I've been trying to do it once a month. That hasn't really happened, so we're going to, first of all, try to have it actually come out once a month. We're going to have some big giveaways that I'm really excited about, starting with the one that's going to come out soon in January. So please get on the list. It is free. You just go to my website, BobbiRebell.com to sign up. Please also follow me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1. If you go there, just send me a DM just to say hi so I know that you're there and you've heard this on the podcast. And by the way, apologies in this interview for any audio glitches. Barbara was coming to us from an area with really weak signals, wifi, whatever you want to call it. So the audio is not ideal, but the interview is well worth it. Here is Barbara Huson.

Bobbi Rebell:

Barbara Huson, welcome to Financial Grownup. We're so glad to have you here and we're so excited to hear more about your new book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. Welcome.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you, and thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Before we get into that, I want people to know a little bit about your background, because it is one of a kind. You come from a very unique perspective in your approach to wealth and basically how we should be thinking about it.

Barbara Huson:

I grew up in a wealthy family. My father was the R of H&R Block. The only advice he ever gave me about money was, "Don't worry," which I thought was great advice. I didn't understand money. I just wanted to spend it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't want to worry about money. I would love to just spend it. Sounds good to me, Barbara.

Barbara Huson:

Yeah. It sounded great to me until I found out very early in my marriage that my husband, who was a stockbroker, was a compulsive gambler. Over the course of our marriage, he lost a fortune of my inheritance. Here's the insane part, I continued to let him manage the money because that's how terrified and intimidated I was by anything to do with money. After our divorce, I decided I didn't want to deal with money, it's not my thing. Well, I have learned that if you don't deal with your money, your money will deal with you. Then the next year, I got tax bills for over a million dollars for back taxes my ex didn't pay for illegal deals he got us in. My signature was on everything. I hired lawyers, I got the tax bill down. I sold what was left in my trust. I was left with nothing. I had a few properties. I had a few properties…and so if I lived frugally, I'd be fine. I had three daughters. I was not going to raise them on the street. I was determined to get smart.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That's what we call a financial grownup moment, is having your husband gamble away your fortune and having to figure it out with young children. For sure. So you have a lot to teach us. I know that from that moment, you went on this mission. For years, you've really dedicated your life to educating women, to coaching women about wealth. You now have seven books out. Your eighth one is coming out and now you're here talking to us, which I'm so grateful for. You brought us three tips to rewire your brain for financial success. First, talk a little bit before we get to that about the whole concept of that, because this is a whole different way to think about money, starting with how our brains work.

Barbara Huson:

About six years ago, I stumbled on an article about neuroscience. If I could integrate neuroscience, the principles of neuroscience, of rewiring your brain into the work that I was doing with finances, helping women become financially empowered, that can expedite the learning curve and get them past the resistance in a very short time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us an overview of the three tips, and then we can talk about what each one is.

Barbara Huson:

So the three steps are simply recognize, reframe and respond differently. Recognize, reframe, and respond differently. I'll explain these steps in a minute, but you must do these over and over and over and over again, because the key to rewiring your brain, to changing the habits, is repetition. So the first step, recognize. What that means is you start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Start observing them. "Oh, I'm having a thought about not having enough. Oh, I'm having a thought about I have to have those shoes. I have to have that designer handbag," or whatever. Or, "I'm not enough." But you start observing, and you observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. "Oh, isn't that interesting? I'm having a thought," because by doing that, you separate yourself from the thought.

Barbara Huson:

The second step is taking that thought, "There's never enough," and reframing it, seeing it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought, "Oh, there's enough. There's enough," or maybe it's, "oh, here's an opportunity to rewire that thought." The third step is you respond differently. You [inaudible 00:09:24] do. What you do want to do, which doesn't feel right, which doesn't come naturally. In that case, there's never enough and you could go into fear and not want to open your bills and not want to look at your checkbook. Therefore, the thing to do is open at least one bill or start looking at your checkbook. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you say to people that maybe have people around them that are counter-effective? I don't know if that's quite the right word. They're not supportive of this rewiring idea. That are filling people with the wrong kinds of thoughts. How do you do that? Especially, we're in quarantine, sometimes we don't have much choice with who we're with.

Barbara Huson:

It's really, really important that you, at least while you are rewiring, while you want to shift from being one way to being another way, it's really important to surround yourself with people who are supporting you and not trying to rain on your parade. And that may mean if your husband is being a naysayer, simply not listening, walking out of the room. But it's really important, it's a really good point you made, because you become who you're with. There is a tendency to become who you're with. It's very important to distance yourself emotionally, if not physically, from the people who are not there supporting you.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is such good advice. Tell us more about... The book is coming out in January. Tell us more about where people can find out more about the book and about you and be in touch with you.

Barbara Huson:

Well, you can go to my website, which is Barbara-Huson, H-U-S-O-N, .com. Barbara-Huson.com. The book is actually for presale now. I know it's on Amazon and Barnes & Noble, but yes, you can come to my website. There's just lots of stuff on there, and I have wonderful offerings on there. I invite anyone to come.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, thank you so much for joining us. I love the book. In fact, I endorsed it, so that's truly something that I don't do very often, but this book really struck me as something very important that we should all be embracing in the way that we approach money. I think a lot of people can benefit from this different way of thinking about wealth and our money. So thank you so much for being here and thank you so much for this newest book.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, are you guys ready to rewire for wealth? Let me know how you like the book and what other authors you'd like for me to invite on the Financial Grownup podcast. We actually have a lot of big author interviews coming up this winter, and most of them are going to be donating books to be given away to those of you on The Grownup List. We're also giving away branded merchandise as a sneak peek to what we're going to be fully launching a little bit later on, probably early spring. And you can enter and win only if you are on The Grownup List. Super easy to join. Go to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and just sign up. See you guys there. Big thanks, of course, to Barbara Huson, for helping us rewire for wealth and be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Advice, Authors, Business, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Entrepreneurs, Financial Independence, Money, Personal Finance, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanBarbara Huson, rewire for wealth, finance, women entrepreneurs, financial freedom, financial advice
Shhh... Clever Girl Finance's Bola Sokunbi had a secret luxury handbag habit (ENCORE)
Shhh... Clever Girl Finance's Bola Sokunbi had a secret luxury handbag habit (ENCORE)
2020-Bola Sokunbi instagram (1).png

 

Clever Girl Finance’s Bola Sokunbi is famous for saving $100k on a $54k salary in about 3 years. But then she started dropping $3,000 on a massive collection of luxury handbags, most of which she never even used. 

In Bola’s money story you will learn:

-How she saved more than $100,000 on a salary of just $54,000 in three and a half years

-The side hustle that helped her reach that goal

-How after she reached that goal, she made a very unexpected spending splurge

-The fascinating reason, looking back, that she went down that path and kept going!

-The moment she woke up and realized she had to make a change

-Exactly what she did to get back on track and make a profit in the process

-The regret she had despite making money on her debacle

-Why she thinks so much about Amazon stock

In Bola’s money lesson you will learn:

-Why keeping her handbags in top condition was the key in getting a solid return when she went to sell them

-Other ways to maintain the value of resale able luxury goods like handbags

-Her take on investing in goods like handbags compared to the stock market and corporations

In Bola’s money tip you will learn:

-Ways to get luxury goods like handbags for less money without compromising quality

-Bola’s favorite pre-owned goods resources

-How friends can trade or sell handbags to each other

-Bola’s new strategy for buying expensive handbags

In my take you will learn:

-Why I compare Bola’s handbag venture to winning the lottery

-The difference between saving money and building wealth

-How to sell luxury goods like handbags, as well as other things you can sell, like baby strollers

-Why I do not promote buying fake goods as a cheaper option

Episode links

Bola’s website: CleverGirlFinance.com

Bola’s podcast: Clever Girls Know

Follow Bola!

Twitter Clever Girl Finance

Instagram Clever Girl Finance

Facebook Clever Girl Finance

LinkedIn Bola Sokunbi

 

Also mentioned in the show:

Vestiare Collective

Fashionphile

Rent the Runway

Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
Support for Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell and the following message come from TransferWise, the cheaper way to send money internationally. TransferWise takes a machete to the hefty fees that come with sending money abroad. Test it out for free at transferwise.com/podcast or download the app.

Bola Sokumbi:
I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather. Like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. You know what, being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. This is one of those, "She did not do that," episodes. My guest was a champ at saving money on a very low income, but once she had that money, things took in unexpected turn and then there was yet another unexpected twist to the story. Bola Sokumbi is a certified financial education instructor and the force behind the very popular, Clever Girl Finance, a website and podcast that empowers and educates women to make the best financial decisions for them. Here is Bola Sokumbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Bola Sokumbi, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am such a fan of yours. First of all, in addition to being a money expert, you are the force behind Clever Girl Finance, which is a website and a podcast. It started after you. I don't even know how you did this. You saved $100,000 in three and a half years on a salary of, I want to say, about $50,000?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I was making $54,000 before taxes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Give us just the high level. How you did that.

Bola Sokumbi:
I basically got lean and mean with, probably, my finances. I contributed to my retirement fund from my employer because I knew they were offering a match and that was a way for me to get some free money. I kept my expenses super low. I avoided my friends and stayed home. I wasn't going out to eat very much. I wasn't buying alcohol. I was the-

Bobbi Rebell:
Temporarily, right?

Bola Sokumbi:
Temporarily.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Bola Sokumbi:
I was in a steady ramen noodles and coke diet. I focused on saving 40 to 50% of my paycheck and anything extra.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I save my tax returns, my bonuses. I try to save as much as possible. I also started a side hustle. I started a wedding photography business, which really helped to increase the amount of money I was bringing in. That helped contribute to me being able to save that amount of money. Finally, I avoided credit cards as best I could. I, instead, used a charge card that require me to pay my balance in full every month. That kept me really mindful about my spending, but overall, it was really just setting the intention that I wanted to save and I wanted to challenge myself to save six figures. I put my mind to it. I gone to that focus and three and a half years later, I was able to save that $100,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
So smart. In full details, if anyone wants, go to Clever Girl Finance. I want to talk about your money story that you brought because Bola, this is like an incredible story given what you just said.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here you are. You got $100,000. You're hustling with a side hustle. You're eating ramen noodles. You're doing everything intentionally, maxing out your retirement account to get the max. What do you do? You start buying $3,000 handbags. Tell us what, what.

Bola Sokumbi:
Holla.

Bobbi Rebell:
What?

Bola Sokumbi:
Let me break it down. Basically, I got to this point where I had saved a ton of money. I had a lot of money in the bank. Actually, at the end of the four years, I had about $150,000 saved. I was making more money. I had my business. I gone raising at my job. I was earning, now, well over six figures at this point. I was like "Wow, I have all this money. I maxed out my retirement savings. I'm still meeting my savings obligations. I just have to treat myself." I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather, like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I personally would've bought a pint of Haagen-Dazs if I wanted to treat myself but okay. $3,000 handbags.

Bola Sokumbi:
I went all the way, yes. I got my first designer handbag like "Oh my God, this is amazing. It's beautiful. I bought this in cash. I love it."

Bobbi Rebell:
What was it? Describe it.

Bola Sokumbi:
It was a Channel Jumbo in black caviar leather with gold hardware, classic, beautiful.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. I wouldn't know.

Bola Sokumbi:
I got the one. Should've been enough, but then I was like well, few months later, I have all the spare money. I'm still saving. I didn't know what to do. I want to invest, but I don't need to invest that much. I'm going to buy another designer handbag. I got to the point where I was buying several handbags for maybe three or four years. To me, it was fine because I was still saving. I was still meeting my obligation.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much do you think you spent in total, Bola, on the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh my goodness. I don't know. If we were to have an Instagram competition on who could grab their handbags steady for the next 30 to 60 days, I would win, every time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait. Wait. You're going to have a different handbag every day for 30 to 60 days?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah, I could. Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Bola Sokumbi:
I could've. I have a lot of handbags. I had them in different colors-

Bobbi Rebell:
Were they just sitting in the closet? Were you taking them to work? What was going on with the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
That's the sucky part. I maybe use like two or three. Well, I was exaggerated. I didn't have 60. Exaggerating. About a month. Let's say, a month. I didn't really use them. That was a disappointing factor. I'm one of those people that believe that if there's something that you like and it's something that you're going to use, go for it as long as you plan it out financial, but I wasn't using them. They did not make financial sense for me. I was using like one or two of them, and then maybe the others, I would look at or wear to a baby shower for 25 minutes and it goes right back into the closet. It did not make any financial sense. Fortunately, for me, at the time that I purchase them, for those of you who are into handbags, knew that there have been a flurry of price increases especially with the higher end luxury brands.

Bola Sokumbi:
At the time I bought the handbags, I bought them before the crazy price increases started. I got to a point where I was like "Okay, this doesn't make any sense." I will look in my closet and all I would see would be dollar bills stacked up. My husband is like "You need to let these go. You don't even use them. It doesn't make sense. You feel so guilty about having them because you're not using them." I took it upon myself to sell almost every one of them. I still have a few. The ones I use. It was really hard to sell them because I felt like I was selling my children. It's crazy. When I think about it, it's ridiculous, but I sold them. Luckily, for me, because of the price increases, I was able to sell them for a lot more than I purchase. That very first Channel handbag, the black jumbo I just described with caviar hardware, I paid $2,900 for it and I sold it for $5,500.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness. Only you, Bola, would actually turn a cringeworthy shopping habit into a positive investment experience.

Bola Sokumbi:
However, Bobbi, to the point you asked me before we started recording was, I made money but when I think about it, I really didn't make that much money because one of the things that trigger me to start selling those handbags was Amazon stock. I realized that if I had spent all that money I spent on those handbags on Amazon Stock, I would've had times 100 of what I had spent on handbags. Not just doubling my money. I would've like times 100 it, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
If you had actually bought Amazon Stock, but truthfully, how much do you think ... do you think you spent $90,000 on handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh, I don't know. Over a three to four year period, I spent a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. You bought 30 handbags at $3,000 each.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I had about 30. They were not all the same price.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Bola Sokumbi:
They were not all $3,000 handbags.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was the most expensive one?

Bola Sokumbi:
The Channel handbags I had. They were about in the $3,000, $3,500 range at that time. Now, they're not anymore. They're about 6 to $7,000 now.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I don't own any more handbags by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson from this beyond the fact that there was a time in life when investing in handbag was actually an appreciable asset? Still, they probably know. I don't know the market, but anyway, beyond the fact that it actually turned on to be a good investment.

Bola Sokumbi:
I wouldn't even describe as an appreciable handbag because for me, it was just purely for the fact that I was not using them. No one is going to pay you top dollar for a handbag that has been worn and beat up. If you're buying something, I believe that you should be using it. Lesson for this is cost per wear. You can have 100 Channel handbags if you want to have them and if you can afford them and you're paying for them in cash and it's not taking off your financial goals, but what is your cost per wear. How often are you using them? Are you getting your money's worth? If you buy a handbag for $3,000 and you wear it once, then that one time you wore it cost you $3,000 and that makes no sense. If you buy this handbag and you wear it 3,000 times over four years, then that handbag cost you $1 or maybe it comes down to cents and pennies and that starts to make more sense because as opposed to buying $25 handbags over that three-year period and use that one handbag over that time and you get your cost per wear.

Bola Sokumbi:
To me, cost per wear is really important. That's how I plan out my wardrobe. I still buy fancy things, but I have to be using them. I have to get my cost per wear down to pennies for it to make sense. I know when I see something if I'm going to use it or not. Understand your cost per wear. People may think, "Oh, buying handbags is crazy," but people spend their money on different things. For me, it was the handbag thing. Some people spend their money on electronics, on cars, on things that they don't necessarily use like having a second car in your garage that you drive on Saturday is not good to drive per wear.

Bobbi Rebell:
The handbags make you feel good.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I would pick a handbag over a lot of things. That was me. That was a lesson I learned. I put the money right back into my investment accounts. I was better for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's stick with the handbag thing. What is your money tip, your everyday money tip for everyone?

Bola Sokumbi:
I would say that if you are a handbag girl like me, no shay, no judgment, find ways to get the handbags that you like at a cheaper cost or without putting out so much money. For instance, Bobbi, you and I talked about Rent the Runway. You really like that. If you want to actually own them, you can think about getting them preowned from sties like Fashion File or Vestiaire Collective. There's a bunch of different ones that are reputable that sell authentic products or even local consignment stores in New York. There's a ton of them. Or buying them off of friends who are trying to let go of their handbags or trying to recycle their wardrobe. Those are great ways that you can get luxury at a lower cost. You can also wait until some of these handbags go into the sale and purchase them that way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because a lot of them are really classic.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yes. It's all about buying something that you know you're going to use for a long time. I tend to avoid any trend pieces because I don't want to be out of fashion next year after spending all this money on it. I buy bags that I can carry forever. That's what I do. Every purchase I make right now, I carry that bag to shreds, basically.

Bobbi Rebell:
Definitely. Get that cost per wear down. Where can people find you and learn more about Clever Girl Finance?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. You can find me on my website at clevergirlfinance.com, on Instagram at Clever Girl Finance, on Facebook, Clever Girl Finance. I also have a podcast called, Clever Girls Know. You can search for it on iTunes, Stitcher, Sound Cloud. You'll find it there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think everyone should definitely check all of that out. I am a big fan. Thank you so much, Bola.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. Except for the fact that she was ironically able to sell the handbags at a profit, this whole thing reminds me of what happens when people inherit a ton of money or they win the lottery and then they just don't know what to do, so they go shopping. Financial Grownup tip number one, Bola was great at accumulating money but she was selling herself short when it came to building wealth. She was meeting her goals in terms of saving and investing and all that, but that doesn't mean she couldn't move the goal post given the resource that she had and make even more ambitious goals. Not a problem to buy a bag that you can afford, but she wasn't even using most of them. Bola is very specific that, well, they ironically went up in value if she had invested the money. In her case, she talks about Amazon Stock, she would've made a lot more money. Of course, you could lose money in the stock market. There's no guarantee of that. It's just something to consider.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two, if you do buy luxury goods and you aren't using them, it is easier than ever to sell them, so many resources online. You may not make as big a profit as Bola did, you may lose money but you're still going to get some cash. I have sold some bags on the real wheel. I've been happy to have the cash even though it went for less than I paid. You can also buy slightly used bags there at a discount if you want them. As I've said before, you can rent them at Rent the Runway or other similar websites. I will leave some links in the show notes for you guys. Given these resources, I would also urge you to stay away from the fakes. It undermines the economy and the business of the companies that produce the real thing. Don't buy fake bags. Also, it is illegal.

Bobbi Rebell:
We want you to be a financial grownup. Send us an email to info@financialgrownup.com if you want to be considered for one of our monthly listener episodes. Just tell us what the money story is that you want to share and your everyday money tip. If you have not already, please rate and review the podcast on iTunes, Apple Podcast. That helps others discover us and grow the community. It is truly appreciated. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any upcoming episodes and follow me at Bobbi Rebell on Twitter @ bobbirebell1 on Instagram and on Facebook, I am at Bobbi Rebell. Bola is the best. I am so appreciative that she was brave enough to get really candid. She definitely got us all one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media Production.

Advice, Business, Career, Financial Grownup, Financial Independence, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Women Role Models, Entrepreneurs, Shopping, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanBola Sokunbi, Clever Girls Finance, podcast, Women in business, women entrepreneurs, women and money, role model, entrepreneur, wealth, advice, money advice, blogger, mommy bloggers
Nice ways to become a financial grownup with author Fran Hauser (ENCORE)
Nice ways to become a financial grownup with author Fran Hauser (ENCORE)

Fran Hauser became a financial grownup very young, helping her immigrant parents build their businesses by doing the books and serving as a liaison to clients as early as 1st grade. The author of “The Myth of the Nice Girl, Achieving a Career You Love Without Becoming a Person You Hate” now applies those early life lessons to her search for  startup investment opportunities.   

Fran Hauser

 

Fran’s money story:

Fran Hauser:
Yes. So my parents are Italian immigrants who moved to Mount Kisco, as you said, and like many immigrants it took a lot of courage to make this move. They were uneducated, they didn't speak the language, and they were moving to a place that was completely foreign to them. What each of my parents did have though, was a skill. So my father was a stonemason, my mother was really good at sewing, so they both started small businesses. My dad a stonemeasonry business, and my mom opened up a tailoring shop with her best friend. Being the oldest of four, they needed my help, especially when it came to communication. So when I was in first grade I was preparing all of my dad's invoices. One memory that I have is I could only add at that point in time, I couldn't multiply yet, so my aunt actually created a sales tax chart for me, so that if the monthly maintenance was $300, I could see exactly what the sales tax was, and then just add the two numbers together.

Fran Hauser:
So that was first grade, and then even in middle school I was helping my mother with marketing. So helping her come up with a logo, and getting different marketing and sales materials printed. So I got exposed to business at a very young age, and even understanding things like revenue, and expense, cashflow, you know seeing that when more cash comes in than goes out, decisions that need to be made around what to do with that extra money. It was really interested watching my dad because he took some calculated risks and invested in both commercial and residential real estate, which proved to be fruitful. I would say at a very, very, very young age I played this role of bookkeeper/marketer/general manager.

Fran Hauser:
Another vivid memory I have that I'll just share with you is when my father was asked to go look at a job, a potential client, and give them an estimate, he wasn't able to understand the directions to actually get to the house. So I would listen in on another phone and write down the directions, and then I would go in the car with him and we would actually drive to the residence together, and then I would get out and I would basically be the translator for him. So that was my childhood, pretty unconventional.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Very unconventional. How did you assume this role? Were there specific deliberate conversations, or did it just evolve organically as you grew up in the household?

Fran Hauser:
It really evolved organically, because I was the oldest. Really, these things just fell on me. It made sense, if something was broken, even in the house, and needed to be repaired, I would be the one to call the plumber or the contractor, and at the time it felt really hard. It was frustrating, for sure, at times because I just felt so different from all of my "American" friends, who were doing sleepovers and play dates, and I had so much more responsibility. Obviously, looking back, it was actually such an incredible experience, because I learned so much, not just about business but also about risk taking. Watching my parents, who had so much going against them, they were at such a disadvantage, but they were still able to take these risks. Whether it was building these businesses, or investing in real estate, and if you look at my career, I've taken many risks in my career. I've reinvented myself several times. I left Coca-Cola and the late nineties to go to an early stage internet company, Movie Phone. Or five years ago, I left a really comfortable job at Time Inc. to move into startup investing.

Fran Hauser:
So I haven't been afraid to take risks, and I think a lot of that comes from seeing how disadvantaged my parents were, and feeling like if they could take risks, I should be able to.

Bobbi Rebell:
I wanted to ask you, so you mentioned, and I was going to bring this up, that you now are a startup investor. How did this background in business and understanding risks, and understanding strategy and marketing, and even just the basic economics of business, how does that inform your approach as an investor now?

Fran Hauser:
So I think in a lot of ways. For starters, when I'm evaluating the entrepreneurs I'm looking at them and I'm saying, "Do they have the capacity to take risks? Will they jump in with both feet?" And I'm also looking at what kind of mindset do they have? Are they optimistic? I always felt like my parents approached every single venture with such optimism, and with an abundance mindset, and treating people kindly and with respect. So those are things that I really look for in an entrepreneur, and then the other side of it is the brass tactics operational side, which is I feel like I'm really good at looking at financials and understanding what the risks are, really getting nitpicky when it comes to the assumptions that are being used. So I feel like I can look at a PnL pretty quickly, and projected cashflows, and all that good stuff, and I'm just co comfortable. I'm so comfortable with numbers, and I'm so comfortable with looking at forecasts and really trying to make sense of it, and also understanding is there a there there?

Fran Hauser:
The other part too, I would say, is just understanding markets, understanding consumers. I think that also comes from just having spent so much time with my parents clients. So it's impacted me as an investor in so many different ways.

Fran’s Money Lesson:

I would say the lesson is to not be afraid to take risks, and when you do so, really approach it with a mindset of abundance and optimism, and don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to go all in and to jump in with both feet, and then also the last thing I would say, which really ties back to the book, is to treat people with kindness and respect, because I think you look at my parents who barely spoke a word of english, and they were still able to communicate through a lot of nonverbal cues, and a lot of that had to do with being charming, and being kind, and that will take you far.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, because the book is really all about being nice, but in a strategic and smart way.

Fran Hauser:
Yes, being nice in a way where you're not a pushover, and you're not veering into people pleasing territory. It's really about how you can be both nice and strong. Those two things are not mutually exclusive, and that you bring both of those into virtually any situation at work.

Fran’s Everyday Money Tip:

Yeah, I love this. So what we do in my house is, instead of a normal piggy bank, we collect coins in a five gallon water jug. The kids love it because it's so much bigger than a piggy bank, and it's clear, so you can see the progress. The last time we cashed it in the coins were worth $4000, and it took us several years to fill it up, but it's just a really fun way to teach your kids about saving and about goals.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where do you cash it in, what's that experience like? Is it one of the machines, or do you bring it to a bank?

Fran Hauser:
It's actually hysterical because it's so heavy, so what you have to do is we put duct tape over the top of it to close it, and then we literally roll it-

Financial Grownup tip number one

one thing that Fran talks about in The Myth of the Nice Girl is the importance of how things are presented, the tone that you use in your voice. So you can be firm, and not be a pushover, and still be nice. Think about the way that you say things.


Financial Grownup tip number two

don't say sorry so much. Try replacing it with "Thank you." Fran points out that many women apologize of things that not only were not their fault, but also they aren't really sorry about. For example, not being able to attend an event. She would often apologize for declining an invitation, instead, she advises to simply say, "Thank you for the invitation." And say that you will not be able to attend.

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Advice, Business, Career, Financial Grownup, Personal Finance, Women Role Models, Authors, Family + Relationships, Women Entrepreneurs, StartupBobbi Rebell KaufmanFran Hauser, The Myth of the Nice Girl, author, books, role model, women role models, women entrepreneurs, financial grownup, podcast, angel investor, startups, digital media
Puppy love is priceless, but could cost you big with Inspired Budget’s Allison Baggerly
Puppy love is priceless, but could cost you big with Inspired Budget’s Allison Baggerly

Allison Baggerly’s emergency fund was literally a life saver for her beloved dog Joey. She shares her money story, along with an everyday money tip that rescued her from an expensive online shopping habit she developed during the coronavirus pandemic. 

Allison Baggerly

Allison’s Money Story:

Allison Baggerly:
Well, when my husband and I were working to pay off debt, we had two teacher salaries, we were living on two teacher's salaries, working to pay off debt. And we have our dog, Joey, he's still here with us today. He's old, but he is well, and we were visiting family. We left to go see some friends and our dog thought we were leaving him for good. I don't know if he thought maybe we didn't love him anymore. I don't know what happened. But he jumped a chain link fence, ripped out a toenail. The emergency vet we took him to did not give him a strong enough prescription for his size, and he also wrapped his leg too tight.

Allison Baggerly:
So by the time we took off the wrap, he had actually developed gangrene in his leg. And so we were two poor teachers. We basically drained our savings to cover the cost of his leg amputation. I'll never forget feeling so stressed and so overwhelmed because I thought how are we going to pay for this? How are we going to pay for our beloved dog who had this accident? It was completely unexpected. And so we just felt very lost and very helpless in that moment.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what happened? First of all, did you go back to the vet and have certainly at the very least, I mean, how could they have charged you for this given that it sounds like there was some fault on their part?

Allison Baggerly:
So we never were able to prove fault on their part. I was just so emotionally worked up and focused on our dog that I was just like, you know what? I don't even care. People were like you need to get revenge. You need to get your money back. And so we ended up getting some of the money back. Actually my father-in-law contacted his homeowners insurance and somehow they covered the cost of that vet visit, but we had to be out of pocket for the amputation. We actually took them to two different vets to get him looked at. And then our vet was the one who did the amputation and he said he had never seen a case so bad. It was rapidly, like you could see it going up his leg over time. And so it was a matter of, we knew we had to pay for it. Thankfully we didn't have to go into debt or put it on a credit card for it, but it completely drained our savings, which made me feel very insecure as a person in terms of my money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, because that was by definition your backstop. And now what happens if something else happens and it teaches us that as much as emergency funds are important, somehow they're never enough, especially we see what's going on with Coronavirus. We've talked about three to six months emergency funds as being sort of the gold standard. And here we are six months passed. So this is a reminder that it's not only coronavirus that can really devastate an emergency fund. There's so many things that happen. And of course with medical stuff, with humans and with furry friends, you can't always get a second opinion in an emergency. I mean, you were stuck with a medical help you could get at that moment, and you couldn't really go in and be negotiating the bill. You needed medical help. It was an emergency,

Allison Baggerly:
It was an emergency. We needed it right then, or else it would spread to his body and he would have died. It just goes to show you that so often people say $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 is enough while you're paying off debt. And that taught me that it wasn't. It wasn't enough. I was not prepared to cover those types of things. And those things are going to happen whether or not you like it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I have to ask you, so I'm guessing you did not have pet insurance at the time.

Allison Baggerly:
No, we didn't have pet insurance and we don't have pet insurance now. We just paid for it out of our savings, it completely drained it. We ended up actually canceling, my husband had a work trip that he was going to be going on. We ended up canceling that work trip. He was going to have to pay for things like hotel and food so that we could try to increase our savings or put some of that money back in our savings account for the future and build it back up.

 
“You can never have too much money in savings. If you are working to pay off debt it is ok to pause that goal in order to increase your savings.”
 

Allison’s Money Lesson:


Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson for our listeners from the story? When you look back on it, how many years ago was it?

Allison Baggerly:
It was about seven years ago. He's actually lived longer with three legs than he has with four. So it was about seven years ago. And I would say my lesson is that you can never have too much money in savings and that if you're working to pay off debt, it's okay to pause that goal to increase your savings. Even though it's not fun, even though you might not feel like you're making progress, it will be worth it because there will come a time when you are thankful that you have that money set aside even if it feels like it's just sitting there doing nothing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you know how much? Where is the balance though? A lot of people are always confused about that. What's your opinion?

Allison Baggerly:
My opinion is three to six months of your emergency expenses. Usually if you're going to do something like lose a job, hopefully you'll be able to get a new one within that time. So I teach people to actually calculate how much they would need for an emergency budget. Meaning you do things like cancel Hulu, cancel Apple Music. Those types of things can go in an emergency situation. So it's going to vary per person. But I definitely don't think that even just 1,000 or $2,000 isn't enough because it doesn't cover much anymore

Bobbi Rebell:
Such a good point. But you also point out, well that even like for now in Coronavirus times it's been six months, but yet we are spending less because we're home. So when you're in an emergency situation, you will probably not have the same financial needs as you would have. So you have to make those adjustments.

 
“I created a tracker and I literally will color in a box every single day that I complete one of my goals. It’s fun for me to see myself visually see myself reaching three small goals that support my bigger money goals.”
 

Allison’s Money Tip:

Allison Baggerly:
So my everyday money tip is one that I've actually started doing in the coronavirus pandemic. I realized that I was spending so much money online. I don't know if I was maybe processing everything and turning to my emotions. I was stressed and I was stress shopping online, but I realized I was spending so much money on Amazon, it was ridiculous. And so I created basically a tracker to track three money goals. I said, you know what? I need to get back on track with my goals of not spending so much money online and doing different things that helped me financially. And so I created this tracker and I literally will color in a box every single day that I complete one of my goals. And they're so simple.

Allison Baggerly:
One of them is to cook dinner at home, one of them is no online shopping and the other one is exercise. Even though that might not be a money goal, it does help you out financially in years to come. I track those things so that I can build those better habits and just continue to take one step closer every single day to the money goals that I want to achieve.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you manage it if a day you don't do one of the goals? How do you get back on track?

Allison Baggerly:
I just say, okay, you know what? I didn't do it today. That's okay. This is one day, tomorrow is different. So there are days when I don't cook dinner at home whenever I knew I was planning on doing that. And instead of beating myself up for it, instead of saying like, Oh, I failed, I'll just go ahead and start over in the next month or I'll just wait. I'll just keep failing for the next couple of days. Instead of assigning that to my identity, I just say, okay, this happened, thankfully there's still however many days left in the month where I can turn this around and make progress. And so it's fun for me to actually visually see myself reaching three small goals, which those three small goals, they support my bigger money goals. I know if I do these three small things every day, that they can actually make a difference in my big goals that I have set.


Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

So many people have been adopting pets during COVID-19, which is amazing, but please make sure you understand the financial commitment before you do so.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

If you aren't ready for the financial and lifestyle commitment, or you're just not sure, consider fostering dogs in need while they are waiting for a permanent home. You can get some welcome company and love during the pandemic and really help a pet in need.


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Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Advice, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Podcasts, Women Entrepreneurs, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanAllison Baggerly, Unexpected Expense, Expenses, Pet, Pets, Pet Insurance, Vet, Bills
Hint CEO Kara Goldin on being Undaunted and rejecting the simple checklist
Hint CEO Kara Goldin on being Undaunted and rejecting the simple checklist
Kara Goldin

Kara Goldin returns to the podcast to talk about how she broke (some) rules, got past business FOMO,  and never relied on simple check lists to bring HINT to the success it is today. Her new book, Undaunted, Overcoming Doubts + Doubters is part autobiography, part CEO manual and part therapy session for anyone aspiring to reach their career and life goals. 


 
“You can do it. You might need to go slower.”
 


Bobbi Rebell:
You're having fun, but you also had a lot of work along the way. You had a lot of kids along the way. There was a lot happening. Someone says this, like life is happening when you're not paying attention, that kind of thing. I mean, you were paying attention, but your life was happening while you were building this business. And now, I met you only a couple of years ago through a networking group that we're in, and I only know you as the CEO of Hint, which is a brand that I see everywhere. So I didn't know this whole backstory. I mean, tell us a little bit about that and the journey and the idea that so many people see you now and don't know the backstory and your decision to write the book.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, including John. So John Legend is an investor in the company. It was funny. When he read the book, he said, "Okay, what was so fun is that I kept turning the pages, and I said, 'Okay, this is when she shuts the company down,' and then I realized that you haven't shut the company down and you're doing really well, and so you got through all of these crazy times."

Kara Goldin:
I started Hint 15 years ago, no experience in this industry. So my book is called Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters. And really, it's about the journey of building something because I really believe that, especially in today's world, people [inaudible 00:04:07] you don't need a lot of experience to just go out and do things. What you need to do is have permission from yourself to go and try.

Kara Goldin:
The reality is, is that a lot of people who have built companies, including myself, they're smart people, but they didn't have experience. They had curiosity and they were okay with potentially failing. They went out and just did.

Kara Goldin:
And so, it's the story of building Hint, but really more. It's a story of resilience and doing something that I really wanted to do. And you mentioned kids. I started this company when I had four kids under the age of six. I've sort of come out of the tunnel a little bit and happy to say that I really believe being a parent who has worked with these kids and they've seen this amazing business being built, now, I can't even imagine that they won't be entrepreneurs themself because they've just seen that, while this is hard, they could potentially go out and do whatever they want to do if they find a problem to solve and something that they're facing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's very much a family business. I mean, you would put them to work, let's be clear.

 
“There is no checklist. There is a vision and there is a willingness to go and try and a resilience.”
 

Kara Goldin:
Definitely. Yeah, no, I remember early on that my sales guys in New York, my son went out with one of them and he said he's way harder like if the bottles aren't turned the right way, if the labels aren't turned the right way. And so just little things like that, like I always smile when I think about this because although my dad was kind of a frustrated entrepreneur working inside of a large company, I never really got kind of the hands-on learning that I think my kids have gotten, and understanding what things are important. And also understanding that you can actually go up against big industry and win. You can also be a female CEO and grow a company in a significant way.

Kara Goldin:
So I think all of those lessons are really important, especially for people who are sitting here saying, "Oh my gosh, I can't do this. I've got little kids at home," and they're finding excuses as to why they can't do it. You can do it, you might need to go slower.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that I usually do with authors is I ask authors to put together checklists. You said to me, "No, there's no checklist." Talk about why entrepreneurs shouldn't have these checklists that we all love to have, like five easy ways to make sure your business is a super success. Tie it up with a bow.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I've had people say to me, usually it's kind of wannabe entrepreneurs who really want the one or two or five things that they ultimately need to do in order to start this business. And when I talk to entrepreneurs in every single category, every single industry, it's kind of the same thing. And that's sort of the element of making an incredible entrepreneur is that there was no checklist. And when they go back and they think, "Well, okay, I kind of went left, but then while I was going left, I actually figured out that I should go right because this was working."

Kara Goldin:
And so, most people who are really looking for a checklist probably are not entrepreneurs. And that's okay too. I talk about it in the book that you can join entrepreneurs. Just because you're not going to go start a company, it doesn't mean that you can't go and take on an incredible amount of responsibility within a company. But I think that there is no checklist. There's a vision and there's a willingness to go and try, and a resilience that is definitely apparent.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're in a recession now. Many people's businesses have taken hits that they've never saw coming. You had to guide Hint through the last recession and were asked to make some tough choices and you came out strong and a lot of similar companies did not. What are you doing now to weather this recession that you can share with us and maybe give other entrepreneurs some inspiration for getting through this very challenging business time?

Kara Goldin:
I think the number one thing that I learned from dealing with other difficult business times is really focusing on what is working. And so during a time when people are sitting here almost frozen, right, thinking, "Oh gosh, nothing is working," something has to be working. There has to be one thing that is really working. And so can you figure out how to throw the gas on that and get some traction?

Kara Goldin:
And there's always going to be things along the way that are out of your control, that you really cannot predict when those things will come back, if they'll ever come back. But in the meantime, by focusing on those things that ultimately are working, like for us, it was the direct to consumer business, you're able to not only potentially bring in more revenue to your company, but also, when you have something that is working, it's very motivating, not only for you, but also for your team to say, "Okay, everybody, start working on this because it's really working."

 
“There has to be one thing that is really working and so can you figure out how to throw the gas on that and get some traction.”
 

Kara Goldin:
And so I think that that is such a key thing during this time for everybody to be focusing on. Find that thing that's ultimately working.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also, you talk about direct to consumer sales. You really hadn't focused that much on your website and sort of owning your own sales until you dealt with companies like Amazon that would not share their data. I mean, that's an important thing is owning the information to understand your customer.

Kara Goldin:
A hundred percent. It really goes back to the purpose of the company. I didn't start this company because I wanted to run a beverage company. I started it because I actually saw that by making the shift away from diet soda to drinking water that tasted better, I got healthier and my family got healthier. And so I thought, if I can actually get to those people who are trying to do exactly what I was trying to do, then that would ultimately help me to grow my business.

Kara Goldin:
But again, Jeff Bezos, we love Amazon, we still sell through Amazon. For us, amazon is just like another retailer, just like a Whole Foods or Kroger or anybody else that we sell through that ultimately owns their own data. But we wanted the option to be able to communicate and get to know our customer as well. And that's really, especially during a time like COVID where out of stock situations and stores on Amazon as well, and everybody was just trying to keep up, we thought we can just go directly from our warehouse and ship directly to these consumers.

Kara Goldin:
And so that business has almost tripled since March for us. It's been really crazy. And again, because we have that relationship with the consumer. It's not that we are shutting down any of those other relationships, it's just that they're trying to manage not just us, but a lot of other vendors as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
But I think that lesson goes to the heart of everything. Whether it's your business or your life, it's important to have that control.

Kara Goldin:
Totally.

Bobbi Rebell:
And one other final topic I just wanted to touch on. Towards the end of the book, you talk a little bit about FOMO. Because you're in California, you see a lot of entrepreneurs, I'm sorry, not entrepreneurs, you see a lot of people working for big companies and making all this money as employees because of stock options and stuff. This is going on while you, I have this vision of you and your family like hauling these boxes and boxes of Hint water to go to stores yourself. Because a lot of this, you're doing yourself. You're funding it yourself. Talk about FOMO when you're building something, not necessarily even an entrepreneurial venture, but just in life. We tend to look at other people and feel like everyone's having this grand thing and it's so much harder for us.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, I think it really just goes back to knowing your purpose. Yes, you will see people with nicer houses and better clothes from Barneys or whatever. I guess there's not Barneys anymore-

Bobbi Rebell:
Barneys went out of business, so there's a lesson right there.

Kara Goldin:
I've been so busy. I have not really focused on that at the moment, but it's really understanding what your purpose is. And again, just going back to the mission, and that's the most important thing. Because there will always be people who have nicer cars and houses and whatever, but if you're doing something that is meaningful, and I think health is incredibly meaningful to people. I think it's the number one thing that I see everyone focusing on today. Like nobody actually wants to get this disease. Wherever you live, how much money you have, how many stock options you have, everyone wants to stay healthy. And I think having a company that is ultimately focusing on that is something that I've reminded myself every single day is a good thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is a good thing. And thank you for all that you do. And by the way, people should understand, it was a natural brand extension to do different flavors of water, to do carbonated water and so on, but then your other brand extensions have not been necessarily about beverages. So even though we think of Hint big picture as a beverage company, you're now into suntan lotion, which you, again, had personal reasons, which people should read the book to find out more about, and then you're in deodorant. And is it antiperspirant or deodorant? Because you actually clarify the difference in the book as well.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah. So it's deodorant, but moving away from antiperspirant because all antiperspirant contains aluminum, which, going back to kind of a family health issue around Alzheimer's that I was grappling with, I saw that we could actually solve a problem for most consumers. Most consumers don't actually understand the difference between deodorant and antiperspirant-

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, and why they shouldn't have it until it's too late. The hardest thing for consumers today is even when you shop at the best stores or you see celebrities holding a lot of these products, you just don't ultimately really understand how that could impact your health until it is too late. And so I thought it's my responsibility to actually try to show people what the difference is.

Kara Goldin:
And what I learned really by doing those products too about just the overall mission of the company is it's not just to help consumers, but it's also to help categories and other brands, like suntan category and also the personal care category as a whole. Because I really believe that if we can actually lead and some of these other large brands that are not really doing great for the consumer follows, that's okay too. That to me is incredibly motivating to know that companies were actually following us to actually create products, for example, that don't have oxybenzone in them. Which is true. I mean, we were not seeing products prior to us launching sunscreen that really called attention on the front of the package to say no oxybenzone. That to me is leading in an industry.

Kara Goldin:
Little Hint. That's what's so crazy. And that really is what the impact of what entrepreneurism is. It's not just about starting a company for money, it's actually creating change. And that is what everybody can do. And everybody sees holes in their life that can be solved. And if you really think that you can go and solve those problems, you have an idea, just try and figure it out. It doesn't matter if you don't have experience. And that's really what you're going to hear out of my book and hopefully will motivate people to go and create other companies. That's what we need.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the book is Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters.

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Advice, Business, Career, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Authors, Money, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanHint, Hint Water, Kara Goldin
How to adapt your business model to the new reality of the Coronavirus quarantine with Smart Money Mamas Chelsea Brennan (ENCORE)
How to adapt your business model to the new reality of the Coronavirus quarantine with Smart Money Mamas Chelsea Brennan (ENCORE)

Entrepreneur Chelsea Brennan’s product sales are surging during the Coronavirus pandemic but the boom has brought some difficult business and ethical decisions. The founder of Smart Money Mamas shares her personal money story, along with how to do a  money fire drill so you and your family are ready for emergencies.

Chelsea Brennan

Chelsea’s Money Story:

Chelsea Brennan:
I still think of myself as self-employed, right? This is like my business that serves me in my family, but the reality is it's grown over the past couple of years. We have contractors, numerous contractors, that work for us and we have affiliates promote our product and depend on their affiliate commissions for their business revenue. Our most popular product on our site is called our family emergency binder. It's this product that fills the gap between kind of your general having the right insurance and having a will and what your family would actually need to navigate a crisis.

Chelsea Brennan:
As this whole pandemic started to happen, we saw sales pick up of that, which on one side as a business owner is great, but on the other side it was really emotional for me of, am I profiting off a crisis, am I taking advantage of the situation, even though the product existed long before this all happened. My initial reaction was to discount it significantly to make sure more people got it, but I had to think through was I jeopardizing my ability to support my regular contractors who typically work with me? How is this going to affect my affiliates? How do I communicate this to them in a way that they think this is the right decision?

Chelsea Brennan:
Something that once upon a time when it was just me would have been an easy decision to just slash the price and move on. I had to have a lot more conversations and think more carefully about it for several days before he made the decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because we realized that so many of our businesses, even though you think of yourself as a solo entrepreneur, are actually connected to other people and their income if you have suppliers, vendors, and then on the other hand, your clients. It can be a bit complicated. How did it work out?

Chelsea Brennan:
We decided to reduce the binder price by 40% for the remainder of the crisis. We keep setting an end date on it just because it helps optically and people understand what's going on, but we keep extending it through the crisis. It wasn't a very expensive product to start. It was $39. Now it's $23. We talked to our affiliates about the fact that like, listen, this isn't a sexy product. It never has been, right? This isn't something that people want to think about.

Chelsea Brennan:
If we discounted the price, if we made it super accessible, we could get it to more people and get them to take action on it in a time where even people who bought it in the past have a tendency to kind of stick it in the drawer of, "I don't want to fill this out. I don't want to think about it. I know I need it, but I'll deal with it later," whereas we could really encourage them to use this as an opportunity to get prepared. Everyone in our affiliate group completely understood that. They thought it was a great idea. We have been discounting it and find that balance between making sure we're supporting my business and the other businesses that depend on the binder, as well as making sure we're helping the community as well.

 
“People value things more that they pay for. So I could have made the product free and I think that we would have had fewer people.”
 

Chelsea’s Money Lesson:

Chelsea Brennan:
I think that if you're a business owner, you have to treat your business as a business. As much as we all have that helper mindset and we want to make sure that everyone has everything they need all the time in our community, first of all, people value things more that they pay for. I could've made the product free and I think that we would have had fewer people filling it out. We're getting lots and lots of emails of people taking action, which is my favorite thing. You have to support yourself and the people that depend on you, your family, your contractors, your employees. Don't feel guilty about having a business through recession, through a downturn because you still have to survive, to keep serving your community.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because if you don't make money and you don't pay your bills, those people are not going to be able to pay their bills. It's important to remember that everything is connected.

 
“You have to support yourself and the people that depend on you. Your family, your contractors, your employees. So don’t feel guilty about having a business through a recession, through a downturn because you still have to survive. ”
 

Chelsea’s Money Tip:


Chelsea Brennan:
The family emergency binder came about because my husband is a stay at home dad who is not super involved in the day-to-day of the finances, right? We have regular money conversations, but he's not the one signing into accounts, paying the bills, understanding the investments. I was a little bit worried of if something ever happened to me. We have two young boys. The emotional difficulty for him of having to both deal with any kind of grief and learn a whole new set of skills. One month out of the year, we call it our fire drill month, he takes over all of our finances for the month. I have to step out and be quiet, which is the hardest part, right, is to let him-

Bobbi Rebell:
Does he come to you for help?

Chelsea Brennan:
He does. The way we run it is that he's got to go to the binder first. We're trying to find holes in the binder in the first place of like, okay, where are things that we didn't write down that we should have written down? But he does come and ask questions. The first time was a little bit difficult, right? We had a couple of things that fell through the cracks a bit, but that's natural and now we're in year three and it's gotten a lot easier, right? He knows. When we have money conversations in the other 11 months of the year, he's more involved. He has more buy in, and I feel like it's built a lot of comfort for both of us.

Chelsea Brennan:
My money tip is if you have one partner in a relationship that manages the majority of the finances or if you're equal partner switch, let the typically secondary partner take over and really get some practice in case they ever have to step in because they likely will at some point. Even if it's just a temporary point of an illness or whatever, then they have that comfort that they can do what they need to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly, or even worse, what could happen is they could just do nothing and that would be even scarier. What about if people sort of share things equally, if they divide and conquer, which a lot of couples do?

Chelsea Brennan:
Yeah. I love the idea of swapping completely, right? Take over the other responsibilities. We see this sometimes with like home maintenance and childcare, right, where one partner is the stay at home parent. We have this in our house except the difference is I'm home also working from home, so I kind of see what's going on, but it's letting the other partner handle what you normally handle, whether that's school routines or packing lunches or managing the auto maintenance, right? It's experiencing what you would have to pick up the slack on if your partner wasn't around.

 
“We are getting lots and lots of emails of people taking action, which is my favorite thing.”
 

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Think about all the financial stakeholders before making a money related decision. For Chelsea, this included not just herself and her family, but also people with whom she had business ties and, of course, our customers. This applies even to our families. You may want to do something with the family's money, but we need to all think about the impact they will have on everyone in our financial ecosystem.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Pay it forward, but also pay yourself. My bet is Chelsea's community will remember that she cut them a break during this tough time, but they will also respect the fact that Chelsea made sure to take care of her own family. That will go a long way towards sustaining her business well beyond this time period and people remember that and they're okay with that. What are you doing that people will remember?

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Advice, Business, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Get Paid More, Role Models, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanChelsea Brennan, Smart Money Mamas, Coronavirus, COVID-19, Entrepreneur
How and why financial grownups must remember names with podcast host, speaker and author Adam Carroll
How and why financial grownups must remember names with podcast host, speaker and author Adam Carroll

As a young salesman Adam Carroll got a meeting with a big executive that changed everything. But it would not have happened without getting his name right. Adam shares the story, all the good that came from that first meeting, and specific ways to remember people’s names. 

Adam Carroll

Adam’s Money Story:

Adam Carroll:
one of my very earliest jobs, I was selling suits for a clothier called Tom James, you may be familiar with it. They visit upper level executives in their offices. We had to ring up people every afternoon. We made 80 dials every single afternoon from 4 to 6:00PM.

Bobbi Rebell:
80 calls?

Adam Carroll:
80 calls.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Adam Carroll:
And the goal out of 80 calls was you had to get at least 15 people on the phone and set at least 5 or 6 appointments for the following week. Well, one of the gentlemen on my list was a man named Jim and the last name was H-E-B-E-R-T. And I was young and naive and I kept calling up and asking for Jim Hiebert. They teach you all the different tactics, just ask for Jim, ask for Mr. Hiebert, it's Adam calling for Jim, those kinds of things. And at one point I said, "I'm calling for Jim this is Adam Carroll." And she said, "Mr. Hebert is not in." And I had been calling him Hiebert for months up to that point. And so, finally I went, "Ah, it's Hebert, it's French. I'm going to make sure I say, Jim Hebert next time." And the very next time I called his office and I said, "It's Adam Carroll calling for Jim Hebert is he in?"

Adam Carroll:
They said, "Oh, he is. Yeah, just a moment." So I got on the phone with Jim set an appointment, and then I got in to see him. And this is where the story gets interesting Bobbi. Jim is in this very nondescript office park in Colorado. When you pull up to the building, it's one of those old drab concrete buildings that doesn't look like it's had any work done to it over the past 20 or 30 years. Lots of luxury cars in the parking lot but when I walked in, it had that smell of musty old carpet that had not been changed in again, 20 or 30 years. I walk into the office. There's lots of oil and gas photos all over the wall and I go in to sit with Jim Hebert and he immediately starts asking me questions about myself.

Adam Carroll:
And at the time I was about to get married, so I was engaged. He just completely caught me off guard. He said, "Well, where are you going on your honeymoon?" And I said, "Well, we haven't really firmly decided, but it's likely going to be either Hawaii or Fiji." And Jim asked me, "Have you ever been to The Bahamas?" And I said, "No, I haven't." And he said, "Well, would you like to go?" And at the time Bobbi, I'm thinking, are you asking me to go to the Bahamas with you or asking if my soon to be wife and I would like to go. And he said, "No, no, no, you and your wife could go to the Bahamas. You could take my yacht." Now, keep in mind this is the first time I met him.

Bobbi Rebell:
You just met him?

Adam Carroll:
I just met him and have not even shown him my shirt fabrics or anything because he said, "I'm not a suit wearer but I'll buy some shirts." And so, he's asking me if I want to take his yacht. I said, "Jim, man, I appreciate the offer. I don't even know how to take that." I said, "What is your yacht like?" Any points over at the wall? And he goes, "Well, there's a picture of it right there." And there's this like 75 foot schooner looking yacht. And at that point I was, again, dumbfounded and I said, "Jim, I don't know the first thing about captaining or piloting a yacht, I don't even know what you call it." And he said, "Oh, don't be silly Adam, there's a full-time captain onboard." It was in that moment, Bobbi, that I realized that I have a lot to learn first of all in the business, but a lot to learn from this gentleman.

Adam Carroll:
And he and I became good friends, he invited me to his country club, we had lunch number of times. I never did take him up on his yacht offer because I just thought it was too much. But he was the one who got me started in this process of teaching people about money because he said, "There's a book I want you to read, it's called Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki." So he handed me the book. He said, "When you're done with that, I want you to read the Cashflow Quadrant," and then he handed me that book. And from that point forward, I just started amassing this, as you can see behind me in my office here, just a massive library full of personal finance books. And he really was the one who got me started in the process and it was all because I knew his name.

Bobbi Rebell:
All because you knew his name properly. And why do you think he bonded with you? What was it when you look back? Because this is someone that made a huge difference and does he offer every salesman that comes to use his private yacht with his captain? I mean, why so generous? I mean, now that you got to know him, have you ever said to him, "Hey, we had just met. That was a big thing."

Adam Carroll:
I had that conversation with him and I said, "I really can't accept the offer." I had asked him at one point, "Jim, just out of curiosity, how much does it even cost to put gas in the yacht to get to the Bahamas?" And he was flippant, "I don't know, it's probably $6 or $700, I don't know." But he was nonchalant about it. And so, I don't know that he was that generous with everyone, but in some of our conversations at the country club, he kept telling me, you need to think bigger. Your mindset is as small as it is ever going to be right now and it will only get bigger, so I just want you to pay attention to that. Down the road, Bobbi, I found out that his wife was a PhD in molecular biology.

Adam Carroll:
She had invented a way, a mechanism that a vehicle would run on the inside of an oil tanker and spray this foam that would remove all of the coagulate or whatever that was on the walls of the tanker truck and then they could vacuum out the foam, clean it and use it again. So she was making millions and millions of dollars in royalties on this invention. So it occurred to me that this gentleman who had so much to teach me had also been about 25 or 30 years advanced in his career from where I was. And what I have reflected on looking back is that in the past 20 years, I've also come a long way in my career and I meet with 20 year olds and I give them advice, I don't necessarily have a yacht I can give them, but I give them advice to try and give them a leg up the same way Jim did for me.

Adam’s Money Lesson:

Adam Carroll:
Number one, mentors, find a great money mentor. Number two, we talked about names and the theme behind names. My grandfather was amazing at remembering names. He would run into people he hadn't seen in 20 years and the name was just at the top of his mind. And he told me one time, "Adam, the sweetest sound in the world to another person is their own name." And I have taught college students this and young professionals that your ability to remember people's names is one of the things that will set you apart because most people are like, "Ah, I'm just no good at remembering names, can't remember names. I hope there's a name tag."

Adam’s Money Tip:

Adam Carroll:
Get really, really good at listening intently for someone's name when they introduce themselves to you. Be more concerned about what their name is then you saying your name, because what generally happens is if you and I were meeting for the first time, Bobbi, I'd say, "Hi, what's your name?" You'd say, "Bobbi," I'd say, "My name's Adam." And I'd walk away going, I nailed my name that time. I nailed it. It was two syllables, it was super confident but instead I need to say, "Hi, what's your name?" "My name's Bobbi." "Bobbi, it's so nice to meet you. Bobbi if you don't mind me asking, where are you from?" And then you would answer and I might say Bobbi again somehow, but I'm working it into my own mind, so I will never forget your name. One other quick money tip on names, I see it spelled out over someone's head. So Bobbi, I might say, "How do you spell it? How do you spell your name Bobbi?"

Bobbi Rebell:
B-O-B-B-I.

Adam Carroll:
B-O-B-B-I. So every time I saw you I would see B-O-B-B-I spelled out over your head and I might even say, next time I saw you, "Hey Bobbi, with an I, what's going on?" And some people are endeared by that because if you are meeting a Hallie with an IE or Haley with an EY or it's H-A-I-L-E-Y, people really care about how their name is spelled. My wife's name is Jenn and it's two NN's and it bugs her when people have one N for particularly those who know her well. So there is something about your name and remembering it in my mind will get you business.

Bobbi Rebell:
Very well said. Great advice.


Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Another way to remember names, association. Adam recommended this to me after we wrapped our interview. And I actually remember I had learned this in college. So this is what you do, whatever the person's name is you think of someone that you know that has that name, a similar name, or maybe someone famous that has that name and then you associate them with that person, it works. Also, using their name frequently in the conversation, yeah, it's a cliche, but it does work. And by the way, I noticed Adam was doing it during our interview.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

I was shocked that Adam had to make 80 calls to sell that high-end clothing, but it is a reminder that this stuff is not easy. And to be successful sometimes it's both a numbers game, as well as being just a little bit better, maybe a lot better in some cases than the competition. Doing things like making sure you personalize each call and know how to pronounce the name, making sure to spell check all your written communication.


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Advice, Authors, Business, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanAdam Carroll, Speaker, Speaking, Names
Money Walks: How money literally bought freedom for Financially Intentional’s Naseema McElroy
Money Walks: How money literally bought freedom for Financially Intentional’s Naseema McElroy

Naseema McElroy candidly shares her experiences paying off debt and building a financial foundation, and how that journey allowed her to break free from both a toxic work environment and an abusive relationship. 

Naseema McElroy

Naseema’s Money Story:

Naseema McElroy:
When I started on this journey, I was single. I was a single mom with my daughter, and as I was starting to pay down debt, I did get married. It was a very short marriage because it was abusive. He ended up having to go to jail. And then I had to go through that divorce process. But if I hadn't had my finances in order during that process, it could have dragged out. I could have stayed in that relationship because of financial dependency. And so I thank God that I was already on that journey so I could step away.

Naseema McElroy:
Shortly after that, I transitioned to a different facility for the same organization that I was working for and was experiencing and witnessing a lot of medical malpractice, especially in regards to maternal morbidity, not to the point of mortality, but almost.

Bobbi Rebell:
Can you explain what you mean by that?

Naseema McElroy:
Yeah. In this country, we have higher rates of black women dying and being seriously injured from just giving birth. And it's very prevalent in certain areas. And in this particular hospital I was working with, it was prevalent and I was speaking up against it. That wasn't well accepted or received.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was happening? They weren't getting good medical care? Tell us more about that, because that is something that we don't know about. I want to know more about that.

Naseema McElroy:
Yeah. So it's very common and that's probably why I'm not being as specific as you want because everybody knows this, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Are they not getting the right? I mean, look, we're both moms, are they not getting the right medical care? And why? Is it a cost cutting decision in the hospital? What is going on? What's not happening?

Naseema McElroy:
It's implicit bias. It's just the way that you handle two different patients, right? So I'll give you an example. I have a mom that's in labor. She's trying to have a vaginal delivery after she had a C-section, which has serious implications, has to be monitored carefully. She's telling me that she's having a lot of pain and I'm prepping her to go to the OR. This doesn't feel right, let's go. The attending walks in the room and she's like, "Oh, so you're in pain now? You're in actual pain now because you're actually in labor and this is what you wanted." So instead of doing the C-section right then, she waited hours to do the C-section, went and did the C-section. And then the baby was hanging out of her uterus with both her and her baby could have died.

Naseema McElroy:
So these things were happening over and over again, over a short period of time. And when I spoke up about it, I was basically told to shut up, and I didn't know what I was talking about. And I had been a labor and delivery nurse for years and had never had my judgment questioned. And so I know that that was an environment that I had to leave because I already tried to speak out. But I was at a position financially where I didn't have to have that job, and so I left. And then when I left in the back end, I did some actions in order to make sure that they corrected their mistakes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank God for that. So you had the choice to leave this horrific job environment, which by the way, thank you for speaking up so candidly, and thank you for following up after you left. Because I know that probably many women benefited, families benefited, children benefited from that. In terms of you, because we want to focus on you on this podcast, you had the financial freedom. So tell us the steps that you went through. You had the financial freedom to leave an abusive relationship. And by the way, divorce is never cheap, as we know.

Naseema McElroy:
Even for that short amount of time. Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it's almost many divorces last more than marriages. But also leaving so many people are stuck in jobs that they're trapped because they don't have the finances to have the freedom to leave. Tell us, what were you doing specifically, you had $200,000 of student debt and other debt you've alluded to. How did you get control of that so that you could leave both an abusive relationship and a toxic job?

Naseema McElroy:
Well, ironically, I thought it was because I didn't know how to invest my money and that's why I wasn't good with money, and I always thought that investing took like this college degree to learn how to do. And so, I listened to podcasts. I had a long commute and so I Googled investing podcasts and stumbled upon Dave Ramsey, ironically. So I actually started listening to Dave Ramsey and followed his baby steps to start getting out of debt, and that helped me accelerate my debt pay off. And so in just two years, I was able to pay off most of my student loans. Then I was going through my divorce at that time. And then during that divorce, I had to pay, I forgot, $20,000 in debt towards, well, it was basically a car that I had paid off. But anyway, I had to pay my husband, even though it was an abusive relationship, he was in jail. They don't care, so I had to pay him.

Naseema McElroy:
And then, because of the way I was doing and following Dave Ramsey's plan, because I was gung ho, I had a $30,000 IRS debt. So I was almost finished paying off all my debt. And that's just snowballing. I did sell a house in the beginning of the process. That helped accelerate that process, but it was just debt snowballing, zero based budgeting my way. And then finally at the end of it, I had a choice to sell my house and, and people are like, why would you sell your house? I had to really think about this. It's like, a lot of stuff happened in that house, especially with my marriage. And so I was able to walk away from that house pretty easily, even though it was a really nice house. And so I sold my house at the end when I had about $50,000 left in debt and then that cleared out everything.

Naseema McElroy:
And so that's all the debt that I paid off. And so all that stuff took place over a matter of three years. And then at the end of those three years, when I sold my house, I moved, I relocated back to my hometown and that's where I was in that toxic work environment. But at this point I was like, I was on wealth accumulation instead of debt payoff. And so I actually stepped back and only went down to working six days a month. And that was a freedom that I had.

Naseema McElroy:
So financial freedom is not about reaching like this fire number that you might hear out there. It's about the levels of independence that you get to take along the way. And my independence was being able to spend time with my family, be free from this toxic work environment, be out of that bad relationship, be able to recover from all the stuff that happened to me over the years and only work six days a month and still make a pretty good living.


Naseema’s Money Lesson:

Naseema McElroy:
The money lesson is being intentional with your finances unlocks levels of freedom in your life for you to live your life by intention, to be able to walk away from those things.

Naseema’s Money Tip:

Naseema McElroy:
For me, I like nice things. And so I don't skimp on my cars for example. I drive a Tesla. During the whole process of me paying down debt, I took my daughter to Disneyland every other month, but that was super important to me, but it was part of my budget. And so it still fits within whatever financial goals I have, but I don't live in deprivation.




Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Naseema created choices when she needed them, because she had made the grownup decision ahead of those situations to get control of her finances. Don't wait for the rainy day to have that umbrella handy, guys.


Financial Grownup Tip #2:

As Naseema said, Teslas are pricey, but you know what? If you want an electric car, which will allow you of course, to save on gas and be better for the environment, don't forget there are many other electric cars out there to choose from. Happy shopping.



Episode Links:



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Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.



Advice, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Financial Independence, Money, Personal Finance, Role Models, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanNaseema McElroy, Financially Intentional, Financial Grownup, Financial Planning, Financial Freedom, Financial Security, Financial Advice, Finances, Finance, Personal Finance, Freedom
How to know when it’s time to fight to get paid (more) for your passion with The Rocket Years author Elizabeth Segran
How to know when it’s time to fight to get paid (more) for your passion with The Rocket Years author Elizabeth Segran

Getting a PhD was an expensive, and time consuming investment for Elizabeth Segran. So the decision to leave academia did not come lightly. We discuss the season of her life when she came to the realization that it was time to pivot, and the financial grownup moment that clarified what she really wanted to be doing. 

Elizabeth Segran


Elizabeth’s Money Story:


Elizabeth Segran:
Absolutely. When I was 25, I took myself to a small village in India called Pondicherry as part of my research. I spent six weeks, the whole summer, walking through this tiny town, learning the language, floating on little boats in the water, exploring the food. And all of this was part of the research that I was doing. And it was one of the most remarkable experiences of my life. But what I'll tell you is that I had very little money in my bank account, and I was spending my 20s gathering all of these experiences, trying to figure out what I really wanted from life, and throughout that process, I wasn't making any money.

Bobbi Rebell:
And how did you feel about it at the time versus how you feel about it now?

Elizabeth Segran:
People often ask me, was it valuable for you to go do a PhD? Especially since, as I explained in my book, I entered the job market in the middle of the great recession. There were no jobs in my field. And so I had to rethink what I wanted to do, and I eventually became a fashion journalist for a business magazine called Fast Company. And I also am now a writer of books. And people are like what were you doing? Did you feel like it was a waste of time? And my answer is always, absolutely not.

Elizabeth Segran:
For those of us who are in our 20s and 30s, millennials and Gen Z, it is far more important for us to find work that aligns with our values, passions, and identity, than to think purely about compensation. And that sets us apart from our parents' generation, who were primarily interested in work that would pay the bills, and that would give us some sort of social status in life. For those of us who are in our 20s and 30s, we know that we're going to be working for 40, 50 years. And we know that that work is going to take so much from us. And so it is so important for us to spend our 20s figuring out what that path is.

Elizabeth Segran:
And for me, that was being in this tiny village in India. I didn't make a lot of money in those years, but I did get a very clear sense of what I value and what I want to be doing with my life. It took being away from the United States, being in this country, spending a lot of time reading and doing all this research about India and my culture and all of these different things that gave me a sense of what I really want to do in life. And so I would not trade that for the world.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to know your opinion then on this pushback we're getting during the coronavirus pandemic. So many colleges are conducting classes virtually, and it's not the same experience for all the obvious reasons, but then there's this idea of what are we really paying for with an education? And the value of that four year traditional bachelor degree and we can extrapolate that to go all the way forward to a PhD when there's now a case being made for people just learning a trade. Is there still value in this whole idea of this extended period of higher education? What do you think about that whole idea that's being discussed now?

Elizabeth Segran:
I'm really sad to hear that many colleges are not just thinking about transitioning to remote learning during this period, but potentially make that part of their coursework going forward. And I'm really sad as well that the higher education is on the brink of collapse, and many people are not going to be able to get PhDs and other degrees going forward.

Elizabeth Segran:
Because there's lots of things that you can learn on the job. For me, I left with my PhD and then I became a journalist. I learned so much while I was practicing the work that I'm doing. And I think that that's true of many jobs. You learn on the job. But what you can't replace in higher that broadening of the mind, reading a lot. I'm spending time with other people asking really difficult questions about what life is about. All of that.

Elizabeth Segran:
It seems so frivolous, especially at a time when the economy is on the brink of collapse, but that is what we need in order to figure out what we want to be as individuals and as a society. It's in those conversations that we figure out what we want the world to be like. If we're closing off the spaces where we can have those conversations, those in-person discussions, the ability to travel to different locations and study abroad and explore other cultures, all of this stuff, if this goes away, I think that we're going to lose something very important.

 
“There has been this ideal of finding your dream job throughout history but for most of time people didn’t have the ability to actually do that kind of work.”
 

Elizabeth’s Money Lesson:


Elizabeth Segran:
Here's the main thing that I would like to communicate. I think that we're really lucky because we are among the first generations in the history of mankind who can find work that is an extension of our identity and ourselves. There's been this ideal of finding your dream job throughout history, but for most of time, people didn't have the ability to actually do that kind of work. For most of history, you had to be a farmer because that was the only work available to you. Or you had to learn a trade among a very small number of options that was out there. And even for our parents' generation, this notion was crystallizing, but the data shows that most people were still mostly interested in finding work that paid the bills.

Elizabeth Segran:
That is not true for us. We have the opportunity to find work and pursue work that aligns with who we are. And that is a huge gift. I think our 20s should really be spent trying to figure out what that work is for us and being patient with ourselves and going on these winding journeys to find it.

Elizabeth Segran:
Now, the data shows that 50% of people will eventually find work that is not just merely satisfying to them, but that exceeds their expectations. This is amazing news. Most of us will eventually find work that really makes us happy and really aligns with our identity.

Elizabeth Segran:
Now, the flip side to that is that it is really easy for employers to exploit workers who are working primarily out of a sense of purpose and out of a sense of passion, rather than trying to find good compensation. If we as workers are pursuing our work because we're passionate about it, it's really easy for employer to say that is compensation in itself. We're not going to pay you that much. Or, you're enjoying being part of the culture at this company, as a result, we're going to not compensate you enough. That is the downside to this new philosophy of work. And so the advice that I would give to people is once you figured out your path and you found work that is really engaging and passionate and that you will be able to do for the next 40 years, and it'll keep you happy. Once you've found that, you need to be really cautious about ensuring that you are properly compensated and that you have a good insurance and that you have good benefits because it's really easy to be exploited in this new way that we work.

 
“It is really easy for employers to exploit workers who are working primarily out of a sense of purpose and out of a sense of passion rather than trying to find good compensation.”
 

Elizabeth’s Money Tip:

Elizabeth Segran:
When you are considering taking a job, I would really caution you not to get distracted by shiny things that an employer puts in front of you like, "We have unlimited cold brew coffee on tap," or, "We have an amazing foosball table that our employees use," or "We have nap pods." I think it's really easy to get sold that this is a company that really wants to create an amazing culture and make you feel at home and all of that, because what you really need to be focused on is what is the salary that they're paying you? Is it on par with the market? Are you going to negotiate to make sure that you're getting paid appropriately? What is the benefits package like?

Elizabeth Segran:
I think it's really easy for brands to try and convince you that the work that you're so passionate about and the culture of the workplace that you're looking at is more important than your salary. And so you just need to not take the bait.

 
“It is really easy for brands to try and convince you that the work that you are so passionate about and the culture of the workplace that you are looking at is more important than your salary so you just need to not take the bait.”
 

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Elizabeth is adamant that we not allow ourselves to get exploited, and she is so right. But she also makes sure that we know that you have to be deliberate in the industry that you choose to join, because we can only control what we can control, which is our own choices for the most part. We can't change an entire industry's pay scale or the number of jobs that there are in the industry. She learned that pretty quickly about the academic world. You can read more about this in her book, but she goes into her decision to leave academia where only a small fraction of PhDs, and yes, she spent years getting one, actually work their making a grownup salary. Rather than just keep fighting, what is a harsh reality, but is reality, she went into a field that she also loved and where she was able to negotiate the right compensation for the work. And so she is doing something she's passionate about and she is getting paid.


Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Cut your losses. Whether it's a PhD, a law degree or whatever, if you spent money for an expensive education, the money has gone, regardless. The time has gone, regardless. When we were talking before the interview, I asked Elizabeth how she felt about spending so much time and money on a degree that she wasn't really using. PhDs, honestly, I'm intimidated by the whole idea. It is a lot of time. It is a big chunk of your life. But she still feels it was super valuable. And that education has a lot of value in and of itself. Yes, it is ridiculously too expensive right now, but that kind of education is not the same as a quick online course that teaches you job specific skills.



Episode Links:


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Advice, Authors, Career, Entrepreneurs, Financial Grownup, Money, Women Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanThe Rocket Years, Elizabeth Segran, Author, Financial Grownup, PHD, Education, Higher Education
Blood Money with Bethany Bayless of the Money Millhouse (ENCORE)
Blood Money with Bethany Bayless of the Money Millhouse (ENCORE)
 
Bethany Bayless Instagram

Bethany Bayless wanted to be a financial grownup when she was an 18-year college student. But when she couldn’t get a traditional college student job near campus, she got creative, earned the money she needed for expenses and found a way to give back to the community. Plus Bethany shares her favorite apps to make extra cash.

“There is a limit to how much you can cut back in your budget. You don’t have to limit your income. ”

Bethany's money story

Bethany Bayless:
When I graduated high school, I went off to college and as a grownup, I just turned 18, and I went to a college that was very small, and it was in a town of six other colleges. We were lots and lots of college students.

Bobbi Rebell:
What town?

Bethany Bayless:
It was Spokane, Washington. In Spokane, there's Gonzaga University, Eastern Washington, all these big universities. There were not a lot of jobs for college students there. It was very very saturated. I was very adamant that I wanted to pay my own rent.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are, by the way, one of five children.

Bethany Bayless:
That's correct. I am the only girl also, I just might add. I didn't want to ask my parents for money because I'm an adult, and that's what adults do is you make your own money. You pay your own rent and utilities, and food, and all of those things. What I did find was that I could go to a plasma bank and donate my blood plasma twice a week. That's exactly what I did. I made $240, and my rent was $240, exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my god. Talk a using your god-given resources, Bethany.

Bethany Bayless:
Exactly. I also think, isn't the house rent supposed to be 25% of your income? It was about 100, and so definitely a lesson learned there. I had to do some other little things here and there. This was before side hustle nation. This was before Uber, before Insta Cart, or something else that I could do to earn money. This was the side hustle app of the age, if you will.

Bethany Bayless:
I just learned very very quickly how much money was worth, and even a quarter was the world to me. It was a chunk right there. It was a great experience because I learned to be frugal. I learned to cut back, and I learned to know exactly what I needed. It was a time that I had zero once.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, I used to give blood plasma a lot. My mother was sick at a point, and that was something that I was a regular there. One thing that I did learn was that they also feed you there, Bethany.

Bethany Bayless:
Yes. Cool.

Bobbi Rebell:
In addition to the money you could get meals, right?

Bethany Bayless:
Yeah. Basically the way the plasma works for people who are not familiar with this process, we will be talking about blood. Just give that disclaimer very quickly. What they do is they hook you up to a machine. They take out a certain amount.
Bobbi Rebell:
It takes a while.

Bethany Bayless:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a process. This isn't just donating blood. This is a different kind of thing.

Bethany Bayless:
Totally different. Because what they do is they put it in a ... It is a word for it. They put it in a machine where it separates it. They spin it really really fast, and it separates the platelets with the white blood cells, with the red blood cells and your hemoglobin, or whatever. Then they give you back your red blood cells.

Bobbi Rebell:
It takes about an hour sometimes. It depends on your blood pressure, believe it or not. Because I had low blood pressure, and sometimes I would not even qualify because you have to be at a certain level, which makes it a very special thing. People really should donate if you do qualify. It's an important thing to do, I should say. You are there for quite a while.

Bethany Bayless:
It is. I would be there sometimes ... Because you had to go in the waiting room first. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Bethany Bayless:
You have to wait-

Bobbi Rebell:
They set it up for you.

Bethany Bayless:
You have to go through this process. It was a chunk of time, but it was exactly what I needed. I went twice a week. I became friends with Rick, who was the guy who ever single week I would go to him. We became friends. He even had the bedside manner of House, very dry, sarcastic, hated the world, but he called me Sunshine. It was a great experience for me to really do it on my own, to do it myself. I thought, why not. It was the epitome of my desperation pretty much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, it is a giving thing to do, and I think it's wonderful that you did that, because even though that wasn't your primary motivation at the time, and I think it's important that people understand that, and that if they are eligible and can do that, it is great to donate plasma.

Bethany Bayless:
Absolutely. Also, I was a universal donor. My blood type is the rarest blood type. I'm AB negative, for anyone who wanted to know. We're finding out so much about each other in this conversation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So much.

Bethany Bayless:
I'm AB negative. It is the universal plasma donor, so anyone could take my plasma.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's wonderful. You didn't mention, what was your favorite snack when you were done? Because they did feed you, so you got food and money.

Bethany Bayless:
Yes, food and money, and I really loved the little cookies. They have little chocolate chip cookies.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yum. Do they have orange juice too?

Bethany Bayless:
Yes, and apple juice, I believe.


Bethany’s money lesson

Bethany Bayless:
The lesson is to do whatever it takes to get by, and to be a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
Within what is legal and what is reasonable. We need to qualify that, Bethany-

Bethany Bayless:
Absolutely. Do anything that was legal. Should I say that again, Bobbi?

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I don't know that people should, for example, donate a kidney, that kind of thing. I think that things like plasma, and things like that, are good, but not actual body parts.

Bethany Bayless:
A kidney or another controversial-

Bobbi Rebell:
We want to be clear.

Bethany Bayless:
... another controversial is donating things like eggs.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Bethany Bayless:
That could have set me up for the entire year, but interesting.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a personal decision. Just be thoughtful about what body parts and things that you give from yourself.

“I could go to a plasma bank and donate my blood plasma twice a week. So that is exactly what I did. I made $240. And my rent was $240 exactly. ”

Bethany's everyday money tip



Bethany Bayless:
Like I said in my story, there was a time when I gave plasma as my last option, it was a time that these apps did not exist. It was not the age of the side hustle, but now I feel like financial grownups have so many options, because you can cut back. There's a limit to how much you can cut back in your budget. There's a limit to how you can limit your expenses.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can only give plasma twice a week.

Bethany Bayless:
You can only give plasma twice a week, but the other thing is that you don't have to limit your income. That is something that there's no limit to the amount of money that you can make. One of the things that you can do is there are a list of apps, things that we've talked about, like Uber or AirBnb, or things like that. Those are already very well known. Other things like Insta Cart, maybe you want to go grocery shopping for people, and you can do it in your spare time. You can pick up times where you just go grocery shopping. It's a great tool to use. I love getting my groceries delivered. If you want to shop [crosstalk 00:10:29].

Bobbi Rebell:
But you can also be the person delivering the groceries.

Bethany Bayless:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
We want to be clear. For all of these, you're not the person getting in the Uber. You're the one driving the Uber.

Bethany Bayless:
That's absolutely right.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's where the income comes.

Bethany Bayless:
Exactly. We have Insta Cart. We have Etsy. Maybe it's time to make things online. There's also some other really great ones, like Rover. It's a dog-walking app. If you want to go hang out with dogs for a day, why don't you download Rover, and you're able to go. You can even teach your kids about being responsible, and take them along with you now that you're a financial grownup, if you have children. Those are some of my favorite apps that you can use.


Episode Links:

Bethany’s websites TheMoneyMillhouse.com and BethanyBayless.org

Apps we mentioned in the episode:


Follow Bethany!


Follow The Money Millhouse!

 

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Advice, Business, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Health + Fitness, Millennial Superstars, Personal Finance, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanDonate Plasma, Side Hustle, Apps, The Money Millhouse, Bethany Bayless, Speaker, Co-Host, Encore
What not to do when your investments tank with Financial psychologist Dr. Brad Klontz (ENCORE)
What not to do when your investments tank with Financial psychologist Dr. Brad Klontz (ENCORE)
 
Dr Brad Klontz Instagram

After witnessing a friend make over $100,000 trading stocks, Dr. Brad Klontz went all in.. just in time for the tech bubble to bust. He lost the cash, but learned a lot of lessons about the market, and his own mental wealth. Plus: the quiz you can take to find out if you have a money disorder, and what to do about it. 


Brad’s Money Story:

Dr Brad Klontz:
So I didn't start out to be a financial psychologist. I actually started out to be a clinical psychologist, so to get through school I had to take out student loans and I'm sure some other people can relate to this situation. When I got out of school, I owed $100,000 in debt; student loan debt.

Dr Brad Klontz:
I grew up lower middle class. My mom says we were middle-class but lower and taught to be a healthy saver, not to overspend. I was also taught never have any debt, however, that was the only way I could get through school. So I, just to sort of set the stage, I had a lot of anxiety about having this debt. It was something that I wasn't comfortable with.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much debt did you have?

Dr Brad Klontz:
About a hundred thousand dollars?

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a lot.

Dr Brad Klontz:
Yeah, it was a lot, especially back then, but that's what I had to do to get my doctorate.

Dr Brad Klontz:
So I started my internship year. I was over in Hawaii and I saw a friend of mine make $100,000 that year, trading stocks. I would sit next to him at the computer and he'd be like, "Oh, I just bought 200 shares of EMC." I'm like, "What's EMC?" He's like, "I have no clue. Ha, ha, ha." Click. I saw him make $100,000 in the course of a year. I thought, what a brilliant way for me to get out of debt. So I'll just do the same thing.

Dr Brad Klontz:
So I sold what I had of value, which for me mainly was a truck and I put it all in the stock market.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much?

Dr Brad Klontz:
For me it was about like 10 or $15,000. I mean, I cobbled together everything I had and I had nothing beyond that and I put it all in the stock market. So this was everything I owned.

Bobbi Rebell:
Based on this one observation?

Dr Brad Klontz:
Well, I observed this over the course of about a year. So I watched this person make $100,000 trading stocks. So that's where I, where I came up with this idea. So I studied it for six months. I didn't just dive right in, Bobbi, but then I did. I dove right in and I had a fabulous two or three months and then the tech bubble crashed and I sat there and I watched all this money melt away. It was just a terrifying, terrible. I felt so ashamed and embarrassed. I couldn't believe I would do something so radically stupid with my money and I turned to the field of psychology. I did what grad students are very familiar with; I did a literature review, so I was going to dive into psychology and find these studies that have been done to help explain why a reasonably intelligent person would do something so stupid with his money.

Dr Brad Klontz:
I started to do the searches and I found nothing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Really?

Dr Brad Klontz:
Yeah. Really the field of psychology at utterly ignore the topic of money for decades. So I was kind of bummed by that. What I wanted to do was read a few studies, get my head straight, and move forward with my life as a clinical psychologist.

Dr Brad Klontz:
What I discovered is there was nothing there and so I decided to actually have to dig it around in my own financial psychology and what I found is that it was all my mother's fault.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Dr Brad Klontz:
That's sort of a psychology joke.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, your father, you're now in business with your father.

Dr Brad Klontz:
Exactly. But psychologists like to pick on mothers for some reason, typically because they're the ones who are most involved in there. But what I did is I actually, I did, I was like, okay, so I've learned, everything I've learned pretty much from my parents. So what I did is I hopped on a plane and I went back home and I sat down with my mother and then I did this with my father too, and I interviewed them, almost like an anthropologist would.

Dr Brad Klontz:
I'm like, okay, so I have this money psychology, I have no idea really what it is. I have a lot of anxiety around money, but where did it come from? So I sat down with my parents and by the way, as a grad student, I'd put them through this before and so it wasn't unfamiliar. So I was asking my mother, what was it like for you growing up? What was it like for grandma and grandpa around money? I got to tell you, Bobbi, I was shocked by some of the stories I heard.

Bobbi Rebell:
Like what?

Dr Brad Klontz:
Well, the one that was the most shocking for me was that my grandfather, my maternal grandfather, he lost all of his money and the family's money in the Great Depression. So he went to the bank one day and the doors shut. You have no more money. This was a traumatic experience and a lot of the research that we've done since then, there are a lot of these traumatic experiences around money that people have experienced in families or entire cultures or groups of people, and the story gets passed down in the anxiety gets passed down.

Dr Brad Klontz:
That's what happened to him and he's not alone. That happened to a lot of people, but what I didn't know is he lived to be in his mid-nineties he never put a dollar in the bank the rest of his life. That was such a traumatic experience for him.

Dr Brad Klontz:
He's like, you can't trust banks with your money; never put money in the bank again. He put it in a lockbox in his attic and of course it wasn't going so well for him financially and when he passed away, he was living in a trailer park. Super great guy, very generous guy, but was so traumatized by what happened around money, never even entered the door of possibly getting some interest or investing.

Dr Brad Klontz:
Now, my mother had tons of anxiety around money. I knew that. She didn't invest in the stock market, but she would put money in the bank and CDs. What I realized was there's this entire family story that I hadn't even heard of, but I'm playing out the next chapter and of course growing up in that family, I'm like, I don't want to be poor like you guys, so I'm going to do the opposite of what you did.

Dr Brad Klontz:
So I, I call it like a dysfunctional pendulum swing. I went from extremely anxious and conservative to the most risky possible investment and I got burned really badly and if I wasn't a psychologist, I wonder if I wouldn't have sort of blamed the market. This is actually what we're seeing happen now with a lot of millennials where they saw their parents go through a trauma; losing a house, delaying retirement, that kind of thing and there's a general mistrust of the markets and financial institutions within that generation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you think that's why a lot of millennials, and we're totally stereotyping here, guys are less into buying houses as a generation and less into credit cards, more into debit cards and more in to experiences than owning stuff because stuff you can kind of lose and experience is with you forever.

Dr Brad Klontz:
I think so, and again it is a generalization, but I think that there are surveys that have really borne this out like this. This is a real thing. Like they experienced a cultural phenomenon that has impacted how they look at money, how they look at investing, how they look at risk, and so absolutely. Just like that Great Depression generation had a cultural experience that led to a bunch of hoarding, frankly. A lot of people know relatives who lived through that, who are a bit of hoarders. They're saving stuff. They don't want to get rid of it. They have anxiety about not having enough.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you pull the money out when the market crashed in the tech bubble or did you ride it out?

Dr Brad Klontz:
You know what, I did a combination. I think I actually still own a couple legacy stocks from then that I just hold on to just as a reminder that that we're all vulnerable. We're all potentially vulnerable to emotional decisions around money. I took it in the chin. A lot of these were stocks that just basically went belly up because things were ridiculously crazy back then.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh okay. So it wasn't even an option to ride them out because a lot of good companies went down and then eventually came back.

Dr Brad Klontz:
Absolutely. But I was on the, I was going after the riskiest stocks possible within that tech sector because that's what I had seen my friend do and make $100,000.

“We are vulnerable to emotional decisions around money.”

Brad’s Money Lesson:

Dr Brad Klontz:
So the lesson is this, that the craziest behaviors you have around money, the things that you must struggle with, you're not crazy. They make perfect total sense.

Dr Brad Klontz:
If you understand the story that your family experienced around money and the beliefs that you got based on that story, either your direct experience or the experience that was passed down to you, and the research that we do, we call them money scripts. These are those typically subconscious beliefs you have about money and we've done a dozen studies on this now. These beliefs will predict income, net worth, a whole host of financial behaviors including credit card debt, et cetera.

Dr Brad Klontz:
So these beliefs are extremely powerful and most of us have no idea they're clanking around in our head. So yeah, that's the message I would give.

“I was going after the riskiest stocks possible within that tech sector because that is what I had seen my friend do and make $100,000.”

Brad’s Money Tip:

Dr Brad Klontz:
Absolutely. So it's understanding those money scripts and there's a couple of different ways to do it.

Dr Brad Klontz:
On Yourmentalwealthadvisors.com I've got the test that we've used in all those studies. That's a quick, simple way to look at them, or another way is to actually sit back with a paper and pencil and ask yourself, what three things did my mother teach me about money? What three things did my father teach me about money? If you have the benefit of them being still alive, go interview them, ask them stories. What was it like for them growing up? What was it like for your grandparents? Because again, these messages get trickled down. We have no idea where they came from, but they totally drive all our financial behaviors.

“We saw a 73 percent increase in savings when people got really excited about what they were saving for.”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

After you take Doctor Brad's Money Disorders Test, which as you heard called me out as being a workaholic and sometimes to a not healthy level, actually do something about it. In my case, Doctor Brad got me started with some ideas by pointing me to a recent video he did on YouTube for workaholics. Among the tips, taking the Rocking Chair Test where you reflect on your life and you think about where you wish you had spent more of your time. We will leave a link to that video in the show notes.

Financial grownup tip number two:

One of the things that Doctor Brad does is that he has a money mantra. For him, it goes something like this. I worked very hard today. I'm really happy with what I did. Now my wife, my children and my health are actually more important to me, so I'm going to stop working right now and I'm going to leave. So maybe we should all make money mantras. Something I've thought about before, still haven't done, something to think about.


Episode Links:


Follow Brad!


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Advice, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal FinanceBobbi Rebell KaufmanDoctor, Dr, Dr. Brad Klontz, Money Disorder, Money Disorder Assessment, money expert, Money Tips, Encore
Episode 300! Being a Financial Grownup Really IS Hard
Episode 300! Being a Financial Grownup Really IS Hard

After 300 episodes Bobbi shares some of her hardest times as a financial grownup. 

Episode 300

Bobbi shares the Financial Grownup lessons she’s learned from her failures throughout life and how to put a positive spin on those failures.



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The extreme cost of incomplete personal finance paperwork with author and Nerdwallet columnist Liz Weston CFP®
The extreme cost of incomplete personal finance paperwork with author and Nerdwallet columnist Liz Weston CFP®

When Liz Weston’s dad was on life support, the advanced care directive that would have allowed his children to carry out his wishes was incomplete, creating a potential cost of tens of thousands of dollars. Liz shares her story, a long with advice to protect your family’s healthcare wishes, and finances. 

Liz Weston

Liz’ Money Story:

Liz Weston:
my father was visiting his sister in Florida. My father lived in Washington state, and he had a massive stroke. Now, one of the things about Florida is that they're really good at keeping people alive when they have massive strokes, given their population.

Liz Weston:
So he survived it, but he was incapacitated. He didn't know where he was. He didn't know where he was in time. It was grim. And he had an Advanced Care Directive, which for people who don't know, that is the paperwork that basically named somebody else to make decisions for you if you can't make decisions for yourself regarding your healthcare.

Liz Weston:
So he had that document, but the only person he named was his spouse. And his wife was not only older than he was, but after a few weeks, she went home to Australia. That's where she was from. So my father was left in a nursing home, across the continent from his actual home, and we had no way to make decisions for him.

Bobbi Rebell:
So your father was living in Australia?

Liz Weston:
Well, half of the year. Half the year, he's in Australia, half the year, he was when he was in Washington. So he's stranded. And the thing was to get control, to be able to make decisions for him, we would have had to start conservatorships in two states. It would have to been his state, Washington state, and Florida. And when you figure you're putting down $10,000, just to start those proceedings, it was a freaking nightmare.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what happened?

Liz Weston:
Well, eventually, she did come back, and a nurse at his facility all but bullied her into signing a do not resuscitate order, because that was the problem, that he kept having crises. They kept taking him back to the hospital. They'd fix him, they'd send them back. So they were just keeping him alive for no good reason, with terrible quality of life. And that's why he had done the Advanced Care Directive in the first place. He watched my mother die of cancer. He knew how awful that could be when you're like lingering in that state. But because he named somebody who was older than he was and wasn't around and there was no backup, he was stuck in that limbo for four months. So it was grueling. It was awful.

Bobbi Rebell:
And for you and your siblings, what had you talked about in advance of this? Were you aware that this was a missing piece to the puzzle ahead of time, or this just all happened all at once?

Liz Weston:
It happened pretty quickly. I was just relieved at first, that there was any kind of paperwork, because I wasn't sure he had taken care of that. He was very private. He didn't want to be asked about his financial situation. I knew that they had done some estate planning because I'd seen my mother's estate plan, but I had no idea with him. So the fact that the document was even there was pretty helpful, but it would have been much more helpful if there'd been any kind of backup.

 
“You want to make sure that the person representing you is a honey badger..  It’s somebody that is going to be able to push back against the medical industrial complex and make sure that you get what you want.”
 

Liz’s Money Lesson:

Bobbi Rebell:
So what is the lesson for our listeners from this? What could be done in this situation? What if, for example, his wife had not come back? I mean, where does that leave you?

Liz Weston:
Yeah, we would have been in court. We would have been spending tens of thousands of dollars, trying to rest control, so that we could do what he wanted done.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. And you're spending money for lawyers when you're not really fighting ... You're just fighting paperwork. No one's actually telling you that they don't believe this is what your father wanted. No one's actually against you. You're just in court because of the way the law is written.

Liz Weston:
Exactly. And we didn't know that there wouldn't be a court battle. I mean, she could have come back at any time and tried to fight. Who knows? But it was just a tense and really, really uncomfortable situation for everybody involved.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much could it have cost you? You said 10 to begin with in each state.

Liz Weston:
Yeah. I really don't know. I know these battles have gone to six figures, but I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's not to mention the fact that there's nursing care going on during this time.

Liz Weston:
Yeah. And there's where we lucked-out, in a weird way, is because he kept being sent back to the hospital, the Medicare limits reset. And if you don't know, Medicare typically doesn't cover custodial care, which is mostly what he needed, except for right after a hospital visit, there's a limited time when they do. So we kind of lurched from one of those to the next. But at some point, if he continued to live, it would have been on us, all the custodial care, and that is incredibly expensive.

Bobbi Rebell:
So we digressed a bit. Let's get back to what the lesson is and how can people ... especially, if you have a relative that is very private, what options do you have in terms of maybe even just educating yourself to know things like that, the Medicare situation?

Liz Weston:
Obviously, we want to first take care of ourselves. So if you don't have this particular document, go to prepareforyourcare.org. So it's prepareforyourcare.org. They have forms for every single state, instructions on how to do this. That's the easiest way.

Liz Weston:
There's all kinds of questions you can answer about what you want and what you don't want. But the most important thing is to name the right people to make those decisions. You can skip all the questions if you want, if you put the right person in charge. So a lot of us have our spouses, but you definitely should have backup, one backup, maybe two. Ideally, those people will be younger than you, so that they are likely to survive you.

Liz Weston:
The problem with having your spouse is that the spouse might be involved in the same accident that takes you out, or that makes you incapacitated. So that's always a risk. That's another reason why you want to have a backup. And I use the phrase ... You want to make sure that the person representing you as a honey badger. And by that, I mean, somebody who's really willing to get up in the face of the medical care system to make sure your wishes are carried out. It can't be their wishes. It's got to be your wishes. So it's somebody that's going to be able to push back against the medical industrial complex and make sure that you get what you wanted. And that takes a little bit of feistiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what about ... are there ways to deal with elderly people that just refuse to speak about it? Are there ways to approach them?

Liz Weston:
Yes. And especially now with COVID-19 going on and people having these horror stories of getting sent off to the hospitals and stuck on ventilators when they don't want to be. I always like to come to discussions like this, having my own ducks in a row. So that's why I suggest, go take care of this first, and then you can bring it up with your elderly parent or the person that you're concerned about. And just talk about that, how you've heard of these horror stories of people getting interventions that they didn't want, or being stuck on life support. And you would like to know what they want. You want to make sure that their wishes are carried out. And do you have an Advanced Care Directive? Do you have somebody that's in paper, that you've named on paper and that you've executed that people particularly document to make these decisions for you?

Liz Weston:
And a lot of people, once you bring it up that way, they're willing to talk about it. You're not pushing and asking about your inheritance. You're not talking about a bunch of other things. This is a real quality of life issue. And I think older people are going to be willing to talk about it. It's not the same as talking about death, interestingly. It's something that's talking about, okay, the quality of life that you are experienced. I think people are more likely to talk about that than maybe death, although there are going to be the death deniers who think they're going to live forever. I don't know what to do about those.

 
“If there is something difficult you need to do with your money, something you have been putting off make an appointment to deal with it. It can be months from now but put it on your calendar and treat it like a real appointment.”
 

Liz’s Money Tip:

Liz Weston:
If there's something difficult you need to do with your money, something that you've been putting off, make an appointment to deal with it. It can be months from now, but put it on your calendar and treat it like a real appointment. And there's two benefits to that. One, is that you stop that nagging in your head that's telling you, you should do this. Because even if you're ignoring it, it's eating at you. And you know that, Bobbi, just as well as I do.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well.

Liz Weston:
But then it's something that's on your calendar. And if you treat it as, "Okay, this is the time I'm going to do that." You can make progress on any task, no matter how difficult it might be or how ... It might take more than one appointment, but at least you're getting started.

Bobbi Rebell:
You get that reminder. So give us an example of something that you've done, that, that worked for.

Liz Weston:
Thinking about changing the guardian for my daughter is something that my husband and I talked about, we worked out. Because as your kids get older, their needs change. When they're younger, you can ship them off wherever. When they're older, you want them to be able to finish school where they are. So the person that's taking care of them could change.

Liz Weston:
So we knew that we wanted to do this, and then I completely dropped the ball. All I needed to do is call an estate planning attorney, but I kept putting it off and kept putting it off. [inaudible 00:12:30] weird. So I finally just put a day on my calendar where I'm going to call Bert, our estate planning attorney, and get this ball rolling. And it was there. I took care of it. Boom. It was done.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's a two-minute call, but we have that, where we kind of know in our head, we have all of these two-minute phone calls to make. And I tend to just make lists, and then I push it forward to the next day. But I like the idea of the appointments, especially if it's something that you know can wait. Maybe you're going to sign up for something, but you want to wait and see for whatever reason, if it melds with your schedule, but you also don't want to forget.

Liz Weston:
Yes. Exactly.

 
“Whatever method you can stick with is the right method”
 

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Nothing is forever and that includes your estate and health care planning documents. I myself realize I might need to update mine after talking with Liz. Estate planning isn’t just about money- more important frankly are things like the advanced care directive Liz talked about. Do the paperwork and make sure you also discuss it with anyone that could be involved should something happen. I’m going to use Liz’ appointment money tip and put an appointment on my calendar to make sure this gets done.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

The coronavirus has taken it’s toll on keeping up with our support system- friends and family we used to just see on a regular basis.. Use Liz’s appointment technique to make a regular catch up time with your friends and family. So for example, you could choose 8am on Tuesday’s and Thursdays and create an open slot and every week book a half hour catch up call with a different friend during those times. I find if you offer a specific time- rather than trading ideas of times back and forth, it is easier to actually make it happen.


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Advice, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, RetirementBobbi Rebell KaufmanLiz Weston, Elizabeth Weston, NerdWallet
4 Myths About Money and Investing With Work Your Money Not Your Life Author Roger Ma
4 Myths About Money and Investing With Work Your Money Not Your Life Author Roger Ma

Some of the most common advice is also the worst. Bobbi and her guest, certified financial planner Roger Ma discuss some popular myths and how investors can protect themselves - and their money- from going down the wrong path. 

Roger Ma

4 Myths About Money and Investing

  • Myth #1 - Earning a high salary will make you financially secure

  • Myth #2 - Renting is throwing your money down the drain

  • Myth #3 - Investing is the most important aspect of personal finance

  • Myth #4 - Investing is complicated


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Advice, Authors, Financial Grownup, Financial Grownup Guides, Investing, Money, Personal Finance, Role ModelsBobbi Rebell KaufmanRoger Ma, CFP, cfp®
Way before Coronavirus, Tiffany Smiley faced an unimaginable health and money challenge, and found the path forward
Way before Coronavirus, Tiffany Smiley faced an unimaginable health and money challenge, and found the path forward

On a very special episode, More Than Me founder Tiffany Smiley shares the story of her husband’s brush with death, his subsequent blindness, and how she became a financial grownup because of it. Plus Tiffany's money tip on how to improve your personal finances during the pandemic.  

Tiffany Smiley

Tiffany’s Money Story:

Tiffany Smiley:
At 23, I was a nurse. I was emergency room nurse. Had my bachelor's in Science and Nursing. I loved helping people ever since I was in kindergarten. When they asked, "What do you want to be when you grow up," I wrote, "I want to be a nurse." It just was in me. And so there was no question out of high school, what I was going to go do. And so I went to school to get my bachelor's in Science. Married my high school sweetheart Scotty, who was a military academy grad. And I always joke that it was the picture of the American dream. He was a newly commissioned officer in the military, and I was a nurse, and our new last name was Smiley. You can't get a better last name than that.

Tiffany Smiley:
But it was the picture of the American dream. Until April 6th of 2005, when I received a phone call at 3:00 AM in the morning. And I was excited, because Scotty would call it different times. But this time it was someone else's voice on the other line. And they said, "I'm so sorry, but Scotty has come face to face with a suicide car bomb." He had been deployed in Iraq. "And there are shrapnel in both of his eyes. And I don't even know if he's going to survive." And this strong leader just broke down and started sobbing on the phone to me. So at 23 years old, my world blew up into a million pieces as well on that day.

Tiffany Smiley:
The next day I resigned from my nursing job, and I took my first one-way flight to meet Scotty out at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, DC. And I remember getting there and feeling so overwhelmed, and feeling the weight of the situation. And I remember thinking, "You just resigned from your job. Scotty is about to have no job. He's completely blind. The army doesn't want him anymore. And you're 23-24 years old. What are you going to do? How are you going to get out of this?" And it was in that moment that I realized, we really can create the future that we want. But you have to be willing to work hard for it, and believe in that vision more than anyone else's doubt.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you also had to take charge of all the finances.

Tiffany Smiley:
Exactly. I resigned from my nursing job. I walk into this situation, and all of a sudden I'm in charge of all of my finances, all of our finances, my student loan debt, our car payment, our rental. And I remember the stress of just having to figure it all out. The silver lining of it is that there's always people that can help. And I realized that very quickly, that I needed to reach out and not just hold it so close, and not share it. But say, "Hey, I need help with this. I need help." Ask. The answer is always no, unless you ask. And so I, all of a sudden, became in charge of it all, in charge of our future, in charge of making sure that we could put the puzzle pieces back together.

Tiffany Smiley:
My money story is that I went from a nurse. So I resigned for my nursing job. I realized very quickly, that's not going to be something I'm going to go back to. That my new future is going to take what I learned in nursing, and I'm going to have to create something totally different to fit my lifestyle. And so I refused to sign paperwork to retire my husband from the military. That allowed him to stay on active duty, which was a huge benefit to our family. And as he stayed on active duty, he went on and did some really amazing things. He wrote a book, he skydived, climbed Mount Rainier, he went to Duke and got his MBA.

Tiffany Smiley:
And in the process of writing his book, I said, "You're not just going to write this and have it go away." So I started a speaking business. And I always laugh, because I'm biology and science. And then I remember being on the phone with accountants crying like, "What do you mean you want a spreadsheet, and what are these numbers?" But you really can figure it out along the way. I never, in a million years, would have thought a source of income for our family in a way of paying off our student loans, and finding space to put a down payment on a house would come from a speaking business.

“It really comes down to being the champion of your own life.”

Tiffany’s Money Lesson:

Tiffany Smiley:
It really comes to being the champion of your own life. And in whatever that looks like, whether you're peeling yourself off the ground, like I had to at rock bottom. But saying, "I'm going to champion this life and I'm going to be a self learner. I'm going to dig deep," because the answers are out there. And I learned that, even though it was hard starting that business. I had no idea about the speaking world. But I learned so much along the way. And I'm so glad. I look back now and I think, I'm so glad I did that.

Tiffany Smiley:
I've learned so much from other people. I've learned so much about running a business. And I do love my accountants now. I wouldn't survive without them. But had I not forced myself into that uncomfortable area, I don't think we'd be living in the freedom that we have now. And so I would just say, be the champion of your life, and be as self learner. Because there is so much knowledge out there. And if I can do it, anyone can do it. You can save a lot of money by being a self learner. And to me, you save money and time. And time is money. So I would just encourage whoever's listening to this, to think outside the box, to champion your own life, and go out and be a self learner.

“You’ve got to dive into books. There is so much knowledge in books. Reach out of your comfort zone.”

Tiffany’s Money Tip:

Tiffany Smiley:
I think number one is, you've got to dive into books. There's so much knowledge in books. One that I just read that I love was by Sallie Krawcheck, Own It. So I always feel like I would reach out to spaces that I'm not very comfortable with. Like I would say that's probably not a book I would normally buy, but I wanted to learn, and I want it to be better. And so I think, reach out of your comfort zone, and read some books that maybe scare you a little bit, or you wouldn't normally pick up.

Tiffany Smiley:
Also there's resources. And people. I always say that we are each other's greatest asset. And we need to tap into each other a lot more. Because something you learned could be something you pass on to me, and it helps me in my business. And just like we hosted in More Than Me, we had you come on, Bobbi, for our expert coaching call, and help the women in our coaching call. I think discussing it, not being afraid to discuss hard topics or money topics or finance, that's something that helped me along the way. So I would say, reach out, grab some books, look for extra resources that are out there, whether they're membership groups, or of course your podcasts, Bobbi. There is knowledge, so much knowledge out there for us to get ahold of.

Tiffany Smiley:
And something I always love to do was after I'd read a book, I would discuss it with someone. So I wouldn't just hold it here close to me. I would go to someone, whether it was a mentor or a friend or someone else in business, and I would run the ideas by them, see if they'd heard of them, discuss them, and ask questions that I had in my own life. And I think there's a lot of value to that. It's very simple. But I think it's something we could all do, especially right now.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also have some resources that you can share with people. How can they learn more about what you're doing, and about you and your husband?

“We are each others greatest asset and we need to tap into each other more.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Tiffany advises that we read a book out of our comfort zone, and then talk about it with someone else. I'm going to add to that, and suggest that we reread books we read when we were younger. Our perspectives change so much. Maybe choose something you read in high school, maybe even middle school. I bet you see it a little bit differently.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Tiffany talks about learning from other people. But other people can also learn from you. So if you have someone in your life that you can help out, maybe take them under your wings a little bit, consider the time to help them learn from you.


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Advice, Career, Entrepreneurs, Family + Relationships, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal Finance, Role Models, Women Role Models, Women EntrepreneursBobbi Rebell KaufmanTiffany Smiley, Speaker, More Than Me, Blind, Military Wife, Veteran