Learning to lower risk and better negotiate, by studying the riskiest of businesses with Allison Schrager, author of “An Economist Walks into a Brothel"
A story pitch led economist Allison Schrager to conquer her own negotiating fears by learning from the economically savvy workers at a Nevada brothel. The experience led her to investigate the most compelling and successful approaches to negotiation, reducing risk and increasing the chances of success.
“My new life philosophy is you should hear no at least 60% of the time and if not you haven’t asked for enough”
In Allison's money story you will learn:
Well, this is actually what brought me to the brothel initially. When I had a relationship with them is they called me wanting me to write about them and I was like, "I don't know about this." They were ... I'm like, "But, tell me about the industry" and they're like, "Well, you know. All the women are independent contractors and we have no set prices. They negotiate every transaction." I was like-
Bobbi Rebell:
These are the legal ones in Nevada?
Allison S.:
Yes.
Bobbi Rebell:
To be clear.
Allison S.:
Yes. This is the legal brothels in Nevada. They're all 1099 employees. I was like, "Well, that's interesting. So, you're telling me, you've got women in their early 20s negotiating with men in their 60s over tens of thousands of dollars?" And they're like, "Why, yes. And it's interesting, no one's ever asked us about that before. You know, then a lot of them come here, not knowing their value so we train them so they know how to be better negotiators and ask for more."
Allison S.:
Now, this is something I struggle with. I'm terrible at negotiating. Nothing freaks me out more and fills me with more anxiety, or at least used to, than asking for money. I am just-
Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, I think all of us.
Allison S.:
All of us. I've always probably been underpaid for this reason. Off I went to Nevada and I spent about a week and a half there learning negotiation skills and it changed my life. Particularly, Dennis Hof when he was alive, was there. He told me something about negotiation that just really changed my outlook for money and for everything, which is you have to get comfortable with "No" because you have to hear "No" more than you hear "Yes" because that's how you know you're asking for enough.
Bobbi Rebell:
I think that's really smart. What's interesting that these women that are in the legal part of the industry do get triple, I think what the ones that are outside of the legal. There's a reason for that is because they're paying to lower their risk, which I think is fascinating.
Allison S.:
Yeah. Just like any market, you pay for safety. Brothel customers pay this 300% markup for transaction that affectively their "No's" going to have no consequence. They're not going to get arrested. No one's going to blackmail them. She's not going to be on the news. They know if she's been screened for diseases. If a customer want ... men and women want that kind of service, then there's somewhere they can go and know they can get at risk-free but they have to pay for it.
Bobbi Rebell:
Did you take those lessons and actually use them in your own life?
Allison S.:
Oh, yeah. Especially one. I learned how to asked for more and feel comfortable hearing "No." My new life philosophy is you should hear "No's" at least 60% of the time and if not, you haven't asked for enough. Also, I also learned these techniques of how to feel more comfortable hearing "No" because it's like a risk, like anything. And that, if you go into a negotiation, it's a risk. It could blow up and you'll destroy your relationship. This is a big concern. The two people negotiating in a brothel, they're about to do something very intimate but they have to argue about money before. It's sort of like your job negotiation on steroids, in terms of tension.
Allison S.:
What they do is they do something you do in finance too, which is there's a lot of hedging. There's a lot of maintaining some sort of form of liquidity, which is you don't just say ... Salary negotiation like, "Double my salary or I'm going to quit." You're just like, "Well, hey. I would like this much more money but if that's not realistic, I could take more vacation days." What you do is you offer this menu of options, which promotes flexibility for both sides and that increases the odds you're going to have a more successful transaction.
Bobbi Rebell:
How did you ... When you then ... Are there specific ways that you then implemented these negotiations strategies in your life since then?
Allison S.:
Oh, yeah. I'm now very comfortable hearing "No." Certainly in terms of writing the book and asking for the resources I needed from both the publisher and from friends helping me promote it. I'm now very comfortable with making these ballsy asks I would've never done before.
Bobbi Rebell:
Can you give an example of one that you asked for that was success? And maybe one that wasn't successful.
Allison S.:
I think it's certainly in terms of asking corporations to do bulk sales. That was just something I would've never asked for before. Now I feel comfortable with it. But, sometimes more often than not, I am being told "No." It still stings a little but then I sort of tell myself, "You asked for enough because you heard no."
Bobbi Rebell:
That's a good thing to remember because ultimately, in other words, you want to hear "Yes" but if you hear a "Yes" right away, that in a way makes you feel, "Well, maybe I didn't ask for enough." I think that's something people need to keep in mind
“Nothing freaks me out and fills me with more anxiety,.. than asking for money”
In Allison’s money lesson you will learn:
I basically said it. It's okay to hear "No." The world doesn't end. It doesn't destroy your relationship. If you don't hear "No," you're not getting enough.
Bobbi Rebell:
How do you recover from the "No?"
Allison S.:
Well, now as I said, it still stings. I sit there-
Bobbi Rebell:
But, can you just go back with your tail between your legs and be like, "Okay. I know you said no to that. Can you do this?" Or do you have to just walk? You just have to save face and be like, "Then I'm not going to do it."
Allison S.:
You come back with another alternative because most transactions aren't binary. It's not like you'll do this or it's not happened. There's maybe a third way. I become more of this school if you ask for the sun, maybe you'll get the moon.
Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Maybe when you originally approach a negotiation, you make sure to not make it binary and not create absolutes. So, that starts at the beginning is giving yourself a way to circle back if you don't get the answer that you want.
Allison S.:
Exactly. What they do in the brothel is customer's a little nervous and they'll lay out like, "Hey. What do you think that they'll do?" He'll be like, "I don't know. I've never been here" and they'll be like, "All right. Here's what I think I should do." They'll lay out this elaborate sexual plan. It involves going to the movies, and dinner, and it's 12 hours. The guy will be like, "That's amazing" and then they'll be like, "Great. That'll be $15000." Then he's like, "Whoa, no" and then they're like, "All right. Well, maybe we can take dinner off the table."
Allison S.:
What you do is you have this big hairy ask but then there's components to it and you take it apart so no one's really ever heard "No." But, you have this whole ... It's actually a menu of choices.
Bobbi Rebell:
Interesting. Any specifics that you think people could use when they are applying it to their own life?
Allison S.:
Yeah. I mean, if you're ... Like I said, if you're negotiating for your salary, as I said, it doesn't have to be all monetary compensation. You could talk about flexible hours. You can talk about more vacation days. Or, as I said, even if you're asking a friend for a favor like they're going to promote your book. You can ask them to email everyone in their company and they'll probably say "No" because that's a little ballsy but maybe they'll share it on Facebook and it's something.
“If you ask for the sun, maybe you will get the moon”
In Allison's everyday money tip you will learn:
Risk is the cost of getting what you want. You don't want to take anymore than necessary. Diversification has been proven in finance as it gets rid of unnecessary risks but not all risk. That doesn't just apply to financial markets. It could apply to anything. It could be if you're in a job doing gig or contract work on the side if possible. So, you have that option. It could be keeping your network fresh, so you have other options if that job doesn't work out or you want a new skill. Or, it could even be with dating. I actually re-read the rules when I was doing the book because I keep [inaudible 00:10:47]. I was like-
Bobbi Rebell:
Well, the book you're referring to is a book from years ago when two women wrote about these very harsh ... They sort of sound old fashion rules but they're almost playing hard to get, I guess. But, go on.
Allison S.:
Yeah. It's a much better book than you remember. But, one of their tips is don't be exclusive with someone until that you really know they're serious about you. I mean, they actually marry you but-
Bobbi Rebell:
Diversification then, in dating? Affectively. Yeah.
Allison S.:
It is and it really does bring out your best self. It really is efficient in some ways because it keeps you from getting invested in the wrong person. They could be a jerk and you don't know that yet because you don't really know who they are. It also makes you feel more desirable and attractive so really can be your best selves. Diversification really applies to anything.
Financial Grownup tip number one:
Think about the things you can do to increase your odds of success in a negotiation. Allison talks about creating a menu of options asking for the most first but offering the other party at least something that they can give you to make it a win at some level. Think about a wine list at a restaurant. A lot of people pick the second cheapest one for a reason. The restaurant knows this and in many cases, they can actually build in the biggest profit margin because they know that's where everyone's going to gravitate towards.
Financial Grownup tip number two:
Try to identify things you do that increase your risk. In the book, for example, Allison talks about how poker champions with stacks of money on the line have to factor in their irrational behavior as the stakes get higher. What do you do that is economically irrational? Shopping for food on an empty stomach. Yeah, that's me. Buying things because they're on sale. Me too. You get the idea. And let me know. DM me with your biggest irrational economic decisions. I would to hear and share with the community so we can all be a little bit more aware, and maybe we can come up with some ways to help.
Episode Links:
Allisons book An Economist Walks into a Brothel
Check out Allison's website -
www.AllisonSchrager.com
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Instagram - @AllisonSchrager
Twitter - @AllisonSchrager
Facebook - @Allison.Schrager
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