Allison Baggerly’s emergency fund was literally a life saver for her beloved dog Joey. She shares her money story, along with an everyday money tip that rescued her from an expensive online shopping habit she developed during the coronavirus pandemic. 

Allison’s Money Story:

Allison Baggerly:
Well, when my husband and I were working to pay off debt, we had two teacher salaries, we were living on two teacher's salaries, working to pay off debt. And we have our dog, Joey, he's still here with us today. He's old, but he is well, and we were visiting family. We left to go see some friends and our dog thought we were leaving him for good. I don't know if he thought maybe we didn't love him anymore. I don't know what happened. But he jumped a chain link fence, ripped out a toenail. The emergency vet we took him to did not give him a strong enough prescription for his size, and he also wrapped his leg too tight.

Allison Baggerly:
So by the time we took off the wrap, he had actually developed gangrene in his leg. And so we were two poor teachers. We basically drained our savings to cover the cost of his leg amputation. I'll never forget feeling so stressed and so overwhelmed because I thought how are we going to pay for this? How are we going to pay for our beloved dog who had this accident? It was completely unexpected. And so we just felt very lost and very helpless in that moment.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what happened? First of all, did you go back to the vet and have certainly at the very least, I mean, how could they have charged you for this given that it sounds like there was some fault on their part?

Allison Baggerly:
So we never were able to prove fault on their part. I was just so emotionally worked up and focused on our dog that I was just like, you know what? I don't even care. People were like you need to get revenge. You need to get your money back. And so we ended up getting some of the money back. Actually my father-in-law contacted his homeowners insurance and somehow they covered the cost of that vet visit, but we had to be out of pocket for the amputation. We actually took them to two different vets to get him looked at. And then our vet was the one who did the amputation and he said he had never seen a case so bad. It was rapidly, like you could see it going up his leg over time. And so it was a matter of, we knew we had to pay for it. Thankfully we didn't have to go into debt or put it on a credit card for it, but it completely drained our savings, which made me feel very insecure as a person in terms of my money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, because that was by definition your backstop. And now what happens if something else happens and it teaches us that as much as emergency funds are important, somehow they're never enough, especially we see what's going on with Coronavirus. We've talked about three to six months emergency funds as being sort of the gold standard. And here we are six months passed. So this is a reminder that it's not only coronavirus that can really devastate an emergency fund. There's so many things that happen. And of course with medical stuff, with humans and with furry friends, you can't always get a second opinion in an emergency. I mean, you were stuck with a medical help you could get at that moment, and you couldn't really go in and be negotiating the bill. You needed medical help. It was an emergency,

Allison Baggerly:
It was an emergency. We needed it right then, or else it would spread to his body and he would have died. It just goes to show you that so often people say $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 is enough while you're paying off debt. And that taught me that it wasn't. It wasn't enough. I was not prepared to cover those types of things. And those things are going to happen whether or not you like it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I have to ask you, so I'm guessing you did not have pet insurance at the time.

Allison Baggerly:
No, we didn't have pet insurance and we don't have pet insurance now. We just paid for it out of our savings, it completely drained it. We ended up actually canceling, my husband had a work trip that he was going to be going on. We ended up canceling that work trip. He was going to have to pay for things like hotel and food so that we could try to increase our savings or put some of that money back in our savings account for the future and build it back up.

“You can never have too much money in savings. If you are working to pay off debt it is ok to pause that goal in order to increase your savings.”

Allison’s Money Lesson:

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson for our listeners from the story? When you look back on it, how many years ago was it?

Allison Baggerly:
It was about seven years ago. He's actually lived longer with three legs than he has with four. So it was about seven years ago. And I would say my lesson is that you can never have too much money in savings and that if you're working to pay off debt, it's okay to pause that goal to increase your savings. Even though it's not fun, even though you might not feel like you're making progress, it will be worth it because there will come a time when you are thankful that you have that money set aside even if it feels like it's just sitting there doing nothing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you know how much? Where is the balance though? A lot of people are always confused about that. What's your opinion?

Allison Baggerly:
My opinion is three to six months of your emergency expenses. Usually if you're going to do something like lose a job, hopefully you'll be able to get a new one within that time. So I teach people to actually calculate how much they would need for an emergency budget. Meaning you do things like cancel Hulu, cancel Apple Music. Those types of things can go in an emergency situation. So it's going to vary per person. But I definitely don't think that even just 1,000 or $2,000 isn't enough because it doesn't cover much anymore

Bobbi Rebell:
Such a good point. But you also point out, well that even like for now in Coronavirus times it's been six months, but yet we are spending less because we're home. So when you're in an emergency situation, you will probably not have the same financial needs as you would have. So you have to make those adjustments.

“I created a tracker and I literally will color in a box every single day that I complete one of my goals. It’s fun for me to see myself visually see myself reaching three small goals that support my bigger money goals.”

Allison’s Money Tip:

Allison Baggerly:
So my everyday money tip is one that I've actually started doing in the coronavirus pandemic. I realized that I was spending so much money online. I don't know if I was maybe processing everything and turning to my emotions. I was stressed and I was stress shopping online, but I realized I was spending so much money on Amazon, it was ridiculous. And so I created basically a tracker to track three money goals. I said, you know what? I need to get back on track with my goals of not spending so much money online and doing different things that helped me financially. And so I created this tracker and I literally will color in a box every single day that I complete one of my goals. And they're so simple.

Allison Baggerly:
One of them is to cook dinner at home, one of them is no online shopping and the other one is exercise. Even though that might not be a money goal, it does help you out financially in years to come. I track those things so that I can build those better habits and just continue to take one step closer every single day to the money goals that I want to achieve.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you manage it if a day you don't do one of the goals? How do you get back on track?

Allison Baggerly:
I just say, okay, you know what? I didn't do it today. That's okay. This is one day, tomorrow is different. So there are days when I don't cook dinner at home whenever I knew I was planning on doing that. And instead of beating myself up for it, instead of saying like, Oh, I failed, I'll just go ahead and start over in the next month or I'll just wait. I'll just keep failing for the next couple of days. Instead of assigning that to my identity, I just say, okay, this happened, thankfully there's still however many days left in the month where I can turn this around and make progress. And so it's fun for me to actually visually see myself reaching three small goals, which those three small goals, they support my bigger money goals. I know if I do these three small things every day, that they can actually make a difference in my big goals that I have set.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

So many people have been adopting pets during COVID-19, which is amazing, but please make sure you understand the financial commitment before you do so.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

If you aren't ready for the financial and lifestyle commitment, or you're just not sure, consider fostering dogs in need while they are waiting for a permanent home. You can get some welcome company and love during the pandemic and really help a pet in need.

Episode Links:

• Allison’s website - www.inspiredbudget.com

• This Is Awkward podcast

• The post where Allison talks more about her dog, Joey

• Get Allison’s FREE Money Tracker here

Follow Allison!

• Twitter - @inspired_budget

• Facebook - @inspiredbudget

• Instagram - @inspiredbudget

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Claudia Chan, author of How We Rise and founder of the She Summit shares her experiences growing up as the child of immigrants who would hide money in all kinds of unusual places- because they didn’t trust the banks. Plus her everyday money tip to help us save money shopping online. 

Claudia’s Money Story:

Claudia Chan:
Yeah. I grew up with a very cash, I guess, focused family. My parents had come to America, not with much. My dad was a bartender, and eventually made friends with folks on Wall Street in the fifties and opened up his first Chinese restaurant. They ended up having a few over the years, but, let's see, when I was a kid growing up ... because they didn't trust banks at the time. And so they would literally hide cash in all different places of the household, so whether it was pots and pans, and inside our pillowcases. So we would literally, even the standard sized pillowcase, my mom would take two standard sizes and stick them into the pillowcase and then put wads of cash between those pillows. I would literally sleep and find money underneath my pillows. But yeah, that was definitely a signature aspect of the family that I grew up in. And I'm sure lots of mom and pop shop, immigrant sisters and brothers out there could relate to that story.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you ever talk to them about this?

Claudia Chan:
It was really my normal. Again, you are the environment you're in. Obviously, when I was a little bit older, I would say, mom, this is not safe. Are you sure this is safe? And she would just go into this whole lecture around you got to be careful with these big banks, these American banks.

Bobbi Rebell:
It sounds so unusual to many of us, but you're saying that was normal among your community.

Claudia Chan:
Yeah. Diversity, right, is such a big conversation today and has been for, I know, many years now. But when you think about America is such a melting pot of so many immigrants and so many immigrant families, and the diversity of people here are ... many of us are mutts, right? We have such different backgrounds and come from such different cultures. And I think that when you think about your local dry cleaning store, your local restaurant, your local deli, your local mom and pop shops, a lot of those were started by immigrant families that had different types of practices, right? So, it's very cultural, and I think we forget how diverse this country is. And I think today's cultural and political events are reminding us of that as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
And we do tend to make assumptions about how people approach money and their relationship with money. How did it impact you as you were growing up into becoming a financial grownup?

Claudia Chan:
Now, I'm not sure if I'm actually a financial grownup yet.

Bobbi Rebell:
You own a pretty big business, my friend.

Claudia Chan:
Well, just by actually giving you that response is a great segue into answering the question. So, to be invited to a podcast where we're going to talk about my relationship to money in 10 minutes is in and of itself a difficult task, because money has really been probably, I just turned 45 years old, the most invisible and yet profound aspect of my life. That I realized today at 45 into my older years that really has so impacted in many ways what's driven me into building the platform and making the impact I have in the world. But at the same time, also been a massive barrier or a massive just challenge in my life because I realized that my parents, for them, money was survival. Money was safety because they lost everything by fleeing from China to Taiwan and coming to the States for the American dream. And they didn't come with here with much.

Claudia Chan:
And so I was so raised with money is really at the center of success. And all the work that I've done building S.H.E. Summit and writing my How We Rise book, and all the leadership work that I've done to advance she, he equity, which is what S.H.E stands for, and creating a better humanity is really success is actually not money. Success is actually freedom, and it is wellbeing, it is peace of mind, it is joy. And I think that what happened to me and I think what happens and consumes so many individuals out there in the world is that we make money our center and the goal, where really money is just the tool to get the freedom, the tool to get the wellbeing.

Claudia Chan:
But the thing is, if you make chasing money your goal, then you're never really going to be happy. I would say that's the quick answer to that question, is really you got to check what your relationship is to money. And really get clear on yourself, whether you're 20, 30, 50, 70, however old you are listening to the story, because some of the most wealthy, financially wealthy people in the world are the least happy.

Claudia’s Money Lesson:

Claudia Chan:

I think that really finding the right team, whether or not it's a financial advisor, and whoever is going to teach you about money and help support you. There's so many aspects to managing your money, right? There's your investments. And there's, do you buy the house now? Or what kind of house do you buy? And they're just like private school or public school. There's just so many choices. And I just think that when we talk about financial organizations, I think it's choose individuals that you really, really trust and get you, that you have the right energy with. It's like a best friend, right? Or it's somebody that is a person that really is the right person for you to be that long-term partner. Because I think having the right people around us will give us the right ... and obviously doing the work as well, right, learning as much as you can. That will give you the wisdom and the tools and strategies you need over time to manage your money well. I can trust organizations if I trust the people.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. That's so important because organizations, I mean, I'm stating the obvious, but they are made up of people.

Claudia’s Money Tip:

Claudia Chan:

So obviously, I am less into shopping today, with a three and five year old, for myself as much as I used to be. I care less about material stuff than I did when I was in my twenties and thirties, now that I'm raising a family. And, again, back to the what matters the most in life question. But when I do shop, whether it's like J Crew, or I go to gilt.com a lot, or if there's a Alexis Bittar, a jewelry store that I love. But I always go to the filter section and I search low to high first to pull up to start at a place where it's the least expensive option. Because again, sometimes I feel like I just, for me, it's more about the transaction, the dopamine shot that you get, that you crave on wanting to make transactions, and wanting to acquire and wanting to buy something. Right?

Claudia Chan:
It's like, Oh, I need a massage. Oh, I want to buy something. And so it's just something that sometimes it's just buying something for the sake of making the transaction. So, that's just one tool that I've used, filter low to high just to keep it simple. And not waste money, because really at the end of the day, whether you need something new, go into your closet and chances are, you probably don't need that item.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I think that's a great thing because it's so easy. And I bet, in most cases, if we start paying attention, they start high to low in many of them because they want you to buy the highest priced thing, so that makes so much sense.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

if your parents are making big financial mistakes, like hiding money in household goods around the house indefinitely, in large amounts, try to help them out. I get the mistrust of banks, but money needs to grow and be invested, or it will be worth less. Please, protect your parents' money.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

I what to add to Claudia's everyday money tip about searching from low to high when you are buying things online. The sorting feature is so important. One thing I have started doing more of when I buy online, which so many of us are doing during the pandemic, is actually really taking the time to read reviews from verified buyers.

Episode Links:

• Claudia’s website - www.shesummit.com

• Claudia’s book - This Is How We Rise

Follow Claudia!

• Twitter - @shesummitweek

• Facebook - @SHESummit

• Instagram - @claudiachanwagner

• Instagram - @shesummit

• LinkedIn - @claudiachan

• YouTube

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

As a young salesman Adam Carroll got a meeting with a big executive that changed everything. But it would not have happened without getting his name right. Adam shares the story, all the good that came from that first meeting, and specific ways to remember people’s names. 

Adam’s Money Story:

Adam Carroll:
one of my very earliest jobs, I was selling suits for a clothier called Tom James, you may be familiar with it. They visit upper level executives in their offices. We had to ring up people every afternoon. We made 80 dials every single afternoon from 4 to 6:00PM.

Bobbi Rebell:
80 calls?

Adam Carroll:
80 calls.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Adam Carroll:
And the goal out of 80 calls was you had to get at least 15 people on the phone and set at least 5 or 6 appointments for the following week. Well, one of the gentlemen on my list was a man named Jim and the last name was H-E-B-E-R-T. And I was young and naive and I kept calling up and asking for Jim Hiebert. They teach you all the different tactics, just ask for Jim, ask for Mr. Hiebert, it's Adam calling for Jim, those kinds of things. And at one point I said, "I'm calling for Jim this is Adam Carroll." And she said, "Mr. Hebert is not in." And I had been calling him Hiebert for months up to that point. And so, finally I went, "Ah, it's Hebert, it's French. I'm going to make sure I say, Jim Hebert next time." And the very next time I called his office and I said, "It's Adam Carroll calling for Jim Hebert is he in?"

Adam Carroll:
They said, "Oh, he is. Yeah, just a moment." So I got on the phone with Jim set an appointment, and then I got in to see him. And this is where the story gets interesting Bobbi. Jim is in this very nondescript office park in Colorado. When you pull up to the building, it's one of those old drab concrete buildings that doesn't look like it's had any work done to it over the past 20 or 30 years. Lots of luxury cars in the parking lot but when I walked in, it had that smell of musty old carpet that had not been changed in again, 20 or 30 years. I walk into the office. There's lots of oil and gas photos all over the wall and I go in to sit with Jim Hebert and he immediately starts asking me questions about myself.

Adam Carroll:
And at the time I was about to get married, so I was engaged. He just completely caught me off guard. He said, "Well, where are you going on your honeymoon?" And I said, "Well, we haven't really firmly decided, but it's likely going to be either Hawaii or Fiji." And Jim asked me, "Have you ever been to The Bahamas?" And I said, "No, I haven't." And he said, "Well, would you like to go?" And at the time Bobbi, I'm thinking, are you asking me to go to the Bahamas with you or asking if my soon to be wife and I would like to go. And he said, "No, no, no, you and your wife could go to the Bahamas. You could take my yacht." Now, keep in mind this is the first time I met him.

Bobbi Rebell:
You just met him?

Adam Carroll:
I just met him and have not even shown him my shirt fabrics or anything because he said, "I'm not a suit wearer but I'll buy some shirts." And so, he's asking me if I want to take his yacht. I said, "Jim, man, I appreciate the offer. I don't even know how to take that." I said, "What is your yacht like?" Any points over at the wall? And he goes, "Well, there's a picture of it right there." And there's this like 75 foot schooner looking yacht. And at that point I was, again, dumbfounded and I said, "Jim, I don't know the first thing about captaining or piloting a yacht, I don't even know what you call it." And he said, "Oh, don't be silly Adam, there's a full-time captain onboard." It was in that moment, Bobbi, that I realized that I have a lot to learn first of all in the business, but a lot to learn from this gentleman.

Adam Carroll:
And he and I became good friends, he invited me to his country club, we had lunch number of times. I never did take him up on his yacht offer because I just thought it was too much. But he was the one who got me started in this process of teaching people about money because he said, "There's a book I want you to read, it's called Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki." So he handed me the book. He said, "When you're done with that, I want you to read the Cashflow Quadrant," and then he handed me that book. And from that point forward, I just started amassing this, as you can see behind me in my office here, just a massive library full of personal finance books. And he really was the one who got me started in the process and it was all because I knew his name.

Bobbi Rebell:
All because you knew his name properly. And why do you think he bonded with you? What was it when you look back? Because this is someone that made a huge difference and does he offer every salesman that comes to use his private yacht with his captain? I mean, why so generous? I mean, now that you got to know him, have you ever said to him, "Hey, we had just met. That was a big thing."

Adam Carroll:
I had that conversation with him and I said, "I really can't accept the offer." I had asked him at one point, "Jim, just out of curiosity, how much does it even cost to put gas in the yacht to get to the Bahamas?" And he was flippant, "I don't know, it's probably $6 or $700, I don't know." But he was nonchalant about it. And so, I don't know that he was that generous with everyone, but in some of our conversations at the country club, he kept telling me, you need to think bigger. Your mindset is as small as it is ever going to be right now and it will only get bigger, so I just want you to pay attention to that. Down the road, Bobbi, I found out that his wife was a PhD in molecular biology.

Adam Carroll:
She had invented a way, a mechanism that a vehicle would run on the inside of an oil tanker and spray this foam that would remove all of the coagulate or whatever that was on the walls of the tanker truck and then they could vacuum out the foam, clean it and use it again. So she was making millions and millions of dollars in royalties on this invention. So it occurred to me that this gentleman who had so much to teach me had also been about 25 or 30 years advanced in his career from where I was. And what I have reflected on looking back is that in the past 20 years, I've also come a long way in my career and I meet with 20 year olds and I give them advice, I don't necessarily have a yacht I can give them, but I give them advice to try and give them a leg up the same way Jim did for me.

Adam’s Money Lesson:

Adam Carroll:
Number one, mentors, find a great money mentor. Number two, we talked about names and the theme behind names. My grandfather was amazing at remembering names. He would run into people he hadn't seen in 20 years and the name was just at the top of his mind. And he told me one time, "Adam, the sweetest sound in the world to another person is their own name." And I have taught college students this and young professionals that your ability to remember people's names is one of the things that will set you apart because most people are like, "Ah, I'm just no good at remembering names, can't remember names. I hope there's a name tag."

Adam’s Money Tip:

Adam Carroll:
Get really, really good at listening intently for someone's name when they introduce themselves to you. Be more concerned about what their name is then you saying your name, because what generally happens is if you and I were meeting for the first time, Bobbi, I'd say, "Hi, what's your name?" You'd say, "Bobbi," I'd say, "My name's Adam." And I'd walk away going, I nailed my name that time. I nailed it. It was two syllables, it was super confident but instead I need to say, "Hi, what's your name?" "My name's Bobbi." "Bobbi, it's so nice to meet you. Bobbi if you don't mind me asking, where are you from?" And then you would answer and I might say Bobbi again somehow, but I'm working it into my own mind, so I will never forget your name. One other quick money tip on names, I see it spelled out over someone's head. So Bobbi, I might say, "How do you spell it? How do you spell your name Bobbi?"

Bobbi Rebell:
B-O-B-B-I.

Adam Carroll:
B-O-B-B-I. So every time I saw you I would see B-O-B-B-I spelled out over your head and I might even say, next time I saw you, "Hey Bobbi, with an I, what's going on?" And some people are endeared by that because if you are meeting a Hallie with an IE or Haley with an EY or it's H-A-I-L-E-Y, people really care about how their name is spelled. My wife's name is Jenn and it's two NN's and it bugs her when people have one N for particularly those who know her well. So there is something about your name and remembering it in my mind will get you business.

Bobbi Rebell:
Very well said. Great advice.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Another way to remember names, association. Adam recommended this to me after we wrapped our interview. And I actually remember I had learned this in college. So this is what you do, whatever the person's name is you think of someone that you know that has that name, a similar name, or maybe someone famous that has that name and then you associate them with that person, it works. Also, using their name frequently in the conversation, yeah, it's a cliche, but it does work. And by the way, I noticed Adam was doing it during our interview.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

I was shocked that Adam had to make 80 calls to sell that high-end clothing, but it is a reminder that this stuff is not easy. And to be successful sometimes it's both a numbers game, as well as being just a little bit better, maybe a lot better in some cases than the competition. Doing things like making sure you personalize each call and know how to pronounce the name, making sure to spell check all your written communication.

Episode Links:

• Adam’s website - www.adamspeaks.com

Follow Adam!

• Twitter - @AdamCarroll

• Facebook - @AdamSpeaks

• YouTube

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Naseema McElroy candidly shares her experiences paying off debt and building a financial foundation, and how that journey allowed her to break free from both a toxic work environment and an abusive relationship. 

Naseema’s Money Story:

Naseema McElroy:
When I started on this journey, I was single. I was a single mom with my daughter, and as I was starting to pay down debt, I did get married. It was a very short marriage because it was abusive. He ended up having to go to jail. And then I had to go through that divorce process. But if I hadn't had my finances in order during that process, it could have dragged out. I could have stayed in that relationship because of financial dependency. And so I thank God that I was already on that journey so I could step away.

Naseema McElroy:
Shortly after that, I transitioned to a different facility for the same organization that I was working for and was experiencing and witnessing a lot of medical malpractice, especially in regards to maternal morbidity, not to the point of mortality, but almost.

Bobbi Rebell:
Can you explain what you mean by that?

Naseema McElroy:
Yeah. In this country, we have higher rates of black women dying and being seriously injured from just giving birth. And it's very prevalent in certain areas. And in this particular hospital I was working with, it was prevalent and I was speaking up against it. That wasn't well accepted or received.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was happening? They weren't getting good medical care? Tell us more about that, because that is something that we don't know about. I want to know more about that.

Naseema McElroy:
Yeah. So it's very common and that's probably why I'm not being as specific as you want because everybody knows this, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Are they not getting the right? I mean, look, we're both moms, are they not getting the right medical care? And why? Is it a cost cutting decision in the hospital? What is going on? What's not happening?

Naseema McElroy:
It's implicit bias. It's just the way that you handle two different patients, right? So I'll give you an example. I have a mom that's in labor. She's trying to have a vaginal delivery after she had a C-section, which has serious implications, has to be monitored carefully. She's telling me that she's having a lot of pain and I'm prepping her to go to the OR. This doesn't feel right, let's go. The attending walks in the room and she's like, "Oh, so you're in pain now? You're in actual pain now because you're actually in labor and this is what you wanted." So instead of doing the C-section right then, she waited hours to do the C-section, went and did the C-section. And then the baby was hanging out of her uterus with both her and her baby could have died.

Naseema McElroy:
So these things were happening over and over again, over a short period of time. And when I spoke up about it, I was basically told to shut up, and I didn't know what I was talking about. And I had been a labor and delivery nurse for years and had never had my judgment questioned. And so I know that that was an environment that I had to leave because I already tried to speak out. But I was at a position financially where I didn't have to have that job, and so I left. And then when I left in the back end, I did some actions in order to make sure that they corrected their mistakes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank God for that. So you had the choice to leave this horrific job environment, which by the way, thank you for speaking up so candidly, and thank you for following up after you left. Because I know that probably many women benefited, families benefited, children benefited from that. In terms of you, because we want to focus on you on this podcast, you had the financial freedom. So tell us the steps that you went through. You had the financial freedom to leave an abusive relationship. And by the way, divorce is never cheap, as we know.

Naseema McElroy:
Even for that short amount of time. Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it's almost many divorces last more than marriages. But also leaving so many people are stuck in jobs that they're trapped because they don't have the finances to have the freedom to leave. Tell us, what were you doing specifically, you had $200,000 of student debt and other debt you've alluded to. How did you get control of that so that you could leave both an abusive relationship and a toxic job?

Naseema McElroy:
Well, ironically, I thought it was because I didn't know how to invest my money and that's why I wasn't good with money, and I always thought that investing took like this college degree to learn how to do. And so, I listened to podcasts. I had a long commute and so I Googled investing podcasts and stumbled upon Dave Ramsey, ironically. So I actually started listening to Dave Ramsey and followed his baby steps to start getting out of debt, and that helped me accelerate my debt pay off. And so in just two years, I was able to pay off most of my student loans. Then I was going through my divorce at that time. And then during that divorce, I had to pay, I forgot, $20,000 in debt towards, well, it was basically a car that I had paid off. But anyway, I had to pay my husband, even though it was an abusive relationship, he was in jail. They don't care, so I had to pay him.

Naseema McElroy:
And then, because of the way I was doing and following Dave Ramsey's plan, because I was gung ho, I had a $30,000 IRS debt. So I was almost finished paying off all my debt. And that's just snowballing. I did sell a house in the beginning of the process. That helped accelerate that process, but it was just debt snowballing, zero based budgeting my way. And then finally at the end of it, I had a choice to sell my house and, and people are like, why would you sell your house? I had to really think about this. It's like, a lot of stuff happened in that house, especially with my marriage. And so I was able to walk away from that house pretty easily, even though it was a really nice house. And so I sold my house at the end when I had about $50,000 left in debt and then that cleared out everything.

Naseema McElroy:
And so that's all the debt that I paid off. And so all that stuff took place over a matter of three years. And then at the end of those three years, when I sold my house, I moved, I relocated back to my hometown and that's where I was in that toxic work environment. But at this point I was like, I was on wealth accumulation instead of debt payoff. And so I actually stepped back and only went down to working six days a month. And that was a freedom that I had.

Naseema McElroy:
So financial freedom is not about reaching like this fire number that you might hear out there. It's about the levels of independence that you get to take along the way. And my independence was being able to spend time with my family, be free from this toxic work environment, be out of that bad relationship, be able to recover from all the stuff that happened to me over the years and only work six days a month and still make a pretty good living.

Naseema’s Money Lesson:

Naseema McElroy:
The money lesson is being intentional with your finances unlocks levels of freedom in your life for you to live your life by intention, to be able to walk away from those things.

Naseema’s Money Tip:

Naseema McElroy:
For me, I like nice things. And so I don't skimp on my cars for example. I drive a Tesla. During the whole process of me paying down debt, I took my daughter to Disneyland every other month, but that was super important to me, but it was part of my budget. And so it still fits within whatever financial goals I have, but I don't live in deprivation.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Naseema created choices when she needed them, because she had made the grownup decision ahead of those situations to get control of her finances. Don't wait for the rainy day to have that umbrella handy, guys.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

As Naseema said, Teslas are pricey, but you know what? If you want an electric car, which will allow you of course, to save on gas and be better for the environment, don't forget there are many other electric cars out there to choose from. Happy shopping.

Episode Links:

• Naseema’s website - www.financiallyintentional.com/

Follow Naseema!

• Instagram - @financiallyinte

• Twitter - @financialintent

• Facebook - @nursesonfire

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Jen Risher, Author of “We Need to Talk, A Memoir About Wealth” and her husband made a fortune thanks to stock they both received while employed at Microsoft, adding more when her husband joined Amazon. But as Jen shares, the blessings of wealth came with a social awkwardness until she learned some key strategies we can all learn from and apply to our lives when we have different financial circumstances from those around us. 

Jen’s Money Story:

Jennifer Risher:
I joined Microsoft, and I met my husband and then I got these things called stock options which ended up being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. And that was the beginning because six years later when David and I were married and expecting our first child, he took a job at a small unknown start-up that was selling books on the internet called Amazon.com. And there we were in our early thirties, company went public and yeah, we had more money than we could wrap our head around.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is wonderful, but it also made your life a little bit complicated and your money story has to do with how it, I guess, influenced the different challenges you faced when you were a new mother. Tell us your money story.

Jennifer Risher:
Yeah. Well, after our first daughter was born, well, motherhood is incredible, right? So this curtain opened, I entered this new world, I had this incredible baby, and I joined a moms group with other new moms and we were all in it together. I mean, everyone wants to talk about how much their baby isn't sleeping, and how to keep them from crying and just all the joys, the ups and downs. And I felt so connected to this group of women. At the same time, I had this other curtain lift and I was in this other new world where there was really silence. No one talks about money and I heard that, "Oh, the wealthy don't want to worry about people only liking them for their money." But I wasn't worried about being liked for what I had. I was worried about being hated for it. So I kept it secret. I kept it hidden. So as the women in my mothers group started talking about what stroller to buy or what highchair to buy, I felt like I couldn't contribute. I didn't want anyone to know about my situation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Because a lot of the discussion had to do with best value, best bang for your buck, where can you get things for less. Price was a big part of that decision for them and it wasn't necessarily for you. Is that correct?

Jennifer Risher:
That's absolutely right. Yes. So although we were relating on every level to all the stuff that was going on as new moms, when it came to buying anything or thinking about like, I'd have to just be at home during the evenings when my husband was out working, he never came home, he was working really hard. And I felt like I couldn't complain about that. So there were a lot of issues that were kind of coming up for me that I couldn't share with other people.

Bobbi Rebell:
And how did that evolve? Did you become more comfortable with them? Did it start coming out? What was their reaction? And did they react negatively as you feared?

Jennifer Risher:
Well, it took a long time to evolve. It's hard to imagine money is a challenge that needs to be overcome. And I'll say up front that money does make life easier. So no one needs to shed any tears over my situation, but it is isolating. So I didn't talk about it. And normally I do, if I have a question, I ask my friends, "What should you do? What did you do?" I get other people's experiences but when it came to money, there was no one I could turn to. I felt like I couldn't talk. And it's taken me a long time to get comfortable enough to talk and to try and get other people to do the same.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what did you do that helped you get over that hurdle?

Jennifer Risher:
Yeah. I spent some time feeling a little on the outside, which was tough. And I think I spent a long time writing my book and that was part of kind of coming to terms with issues around money. And now I really want to get us talking about money because it is a way to connect and learn from each other. I mean, the emotions that come up with money are pretty universal because they involve fear. We're afraid of hurting someone's feelings, we're afraid of not measuring up or sounding unknowledgeable. And we all have some sense of money shame or money guilt. We all have a money story. Right? And so the more we can talk to each other about the emotions that come up for us, I think the better because we'd be more connected.

Bobbi Rebell:
How has it affected your friendships?

Jennifer Risher:
When you don't talk about something, I think it tends to loom large and take on a life of its own. It gives money a lot of power when you don't talk about it. But I think when you actually can have that dialogue, it kind of puts money in its place as a tool and a benefit. That's something that's not bigger than I am or than a friend is. So the people who know me and know that that's just something that I am lucky enough to have as a tool in my toolbox.

“I really want to get us talking about money because it is a way to connect and learn from each other”

Jen’s Money Lesson:

Jennifer Risher:
I think it is important to be transparent and to acknowledge those differences upfront. And when they come up, to talk about them, like if I want to go to a fancy restaurant and I know the person that I want to have dinner with, can't afford it, [inaudible 00:07:20] "It's on me this time." Or if someone feels like they don't want to go to that restaurant, they want to eat somewhere more within their budget, then we need to talk about it and make sure that those things don't become bigger than us and that we're in communication. So I think it really is important to maybe get uncomfortable for a little bit and to be vulnerable and really connect as people because ultimately, I mean, that's where life happens and that's where happiness happens. Is in our relationships and our connections with other people.

Jennifer Risher:
People say money doesn't make you happy. And I used to tell myself, "Oh, money doesn't make me happy. Well, it's not going to make me happy." Kind of secretly thinking that it just might, but now I can tell you from firsthand experience that yeah, it's nice, but it's not it. It really is those relationships that you have with other people.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it sounds like you've evolved. How would you have approached that group differently?

Jennifer Risher:
I used to want to keep things hidden and now it doesn't benefit me, it doesn't benefit anyone else either. I mean, it's not helpful to try and hide what you have or what you don't have because people can sense authenticity and I trust people enough to be able to handle the fact that I have money and that they can look past it and see me as just another person, because that's how I feel and I think that's important for us all to know. That, no, money doesn't make you special or better than or worse than. It's just one more thing that you have in your life. And I feel very fortunate that I have it in my life because it means that I can be generous and I am very grateful.

“The emotions that come up with money are pretty universal, because they involve fear, we are afraid of hiring someone’s feelings, or not measuring up.. we all have some sense of money shame or money guilt.”

Jen’s Money Tip:

Jennifer Risher:
It is. I'll tell you a little story because a friend of mine who is middle-class told me how she and her husband drove the same car for many, many years and finally, when it broke down, she bought an Audi Q5. She'd always wanted that car, she loved that car. But then when she was thinking about visiting her sister and driving up in the car, she started to worry about being judged. And in her mind, she heard herself through her sister saying, "Oh, aren't we fancy now? Probably too good for us," in her mind. Then she also heard herself justifying the car, "Well it was used. It wasn't that expensive." And there is an example of, you haven't even talked to your sister and you're making all these assumptions, you're telling yourself stories of what would happen if she had talked to her sister. My bet is that it maybe would be a little uncomfortable, but there's so much relief and connection that can come from addressing your fears of whatever she was afraid her sister would feel.

Jennifer Risher:
And then there is that, like you say, the ownership of, "Yeah, I wanted this car, I'm excited about this car, and I'm happy with it." And to share that excitement with your sister.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I think that what you're basically saying is, don't apologize for something. Don't create a conflict that doesn't exist. Don't prejudge that people are going to judge you for a purchase. Live your own life, do what you want to do, and let them react but communicate with them, discuss it. If they have a reaction like that to something you purchase, well, ask them, why. Why do they take issue with you buying something? And in some cases it could be they're taking issue because they have a real concern. Somebody might have a spending problem or something. It doesn't sound like that's the case here, but it's the dialogue. It's talking about it, and keeping that relationship intact and not presuming someone's going to judge you and therefore not buying it or even worse hiding a purchase.

Jennifer Risher:
Yes. Well said. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it is that communication. A friend of mine told me like a year after the fact that she almost hadn't invited our family to join hers to see a Cirque du Soleil show. And she said, "Yeah, I agonized over it for weeks. I was worried that you would only want to sit in front row seats, which our family can't afford." I felt terrible. I didn't realize that she was worried about the finances, but our friendship meant more to me than front row seats. Didn't she know that? But I'm so happy that she said something to me. And the fact that she trusted me enough to bring up money really made me feel closer to her, and our conversation really, it ended up bringing us closer. It also made me more aware of how money might play a role in my relationships with other people and how I could be out of touch. Like that hadn't even crossed my mind. But hearing that from her helped me be more aware. So I think it's just a win win.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. I mean, there's so many things. Who knows what we don't know? That people judge us, whether maybe somebody doesn't invite somebody to something because they think they don't have enough money, and they do want to sit in the front row seats, which is not very nice. But some people might say, "We want to go to this restaurant and we don't feel comfortable treating them. And so we're not going to invite them," when maybe they could afford it or would do it, and we just should talk about it. We shouldn't just assume and make judgments about people. And also we should buy things we want to buy if we can afford them and enjoy them and not assume we will be judged. So much wisdom.

“It gives money a lot of power when you don’t talk about it. But I think when you actually can have that dialogue it kind of puts money in it’s place as a tool or a benefit.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

if you are the wealthier of your friends and you want to treat the other friend or friends to say a restaurant meal or the best seats at a show like Cirque du Soleil, you can make it a little less awkward by tying the outing to a special celebration. Maybe it's a birthday, or if it's a couple, maybe it's a couple's anniversary, or maybe there's a work accomplishment to celebrate. That way, you're treating as a gift for a reason, not because of the difference in economic resources.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

The next time you're negotiating for a new job, or you're getting a raise, or you have any leverage in a job or some kind of venture that there's stock options as a possibility, get the stock options. They could pay off big.

Episode Links:

• Jen’s website - jenniferrisher.com

• Jennifer’s Book - WE NEED TO TALK: A Memoir About Wealth

Follow Jen!

• Twitter - @JenRisher

• Facebook

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Bethany Bayless wanted to be a financial grownup when she was an 18-year college student. But when she couldn’t get a traditional college student job near campus, she got creative, earned the money she needed for expenses and found a way to give back to the community. Plus Bethany shares her favorite apps to make extra cash.

“There is a limit to how much you can cut back in your budget. You don’t have to limit your income. ”

Bethany's money story

Bethany Bayless:
When I graduated high school, I went off to college and as a grownup, I just turned 18, and I went to a college that was very small, and it was in a town of six other colleges. We were lots and lots of college students.

Bobbi Rebell:
What town?

Bethany Bayless:
It was Spokane, Washington. In Spokane, there's Gonzaga University, Eastern Washington, all these big universities. There were not a lot of jobs for college students there. It was very very saturated. I was very adamant that I wanted to pay my own rent.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are, by the way, one of five children.

Bethany Bayless:
That's correct. I am the only girl also, I just might add. I didn't want to ask my parents for money because I'm an adult, and that's what adults do is you make your own money. You pay your own rent and utilities, and food, and all of those things. What I did find was that I could go to a plasma bank and donate my blood plasma twice a week. That's exactly what I did. I made $240, and my rent was $240, exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my god. Talk a using your god-given resources, Bethany.

Bethany Bayless:
Exactly. I also think, isn't the house rent supposed to be 25% of your income? It was about 100, and so definitely a lesson learned there. I had to do some other little things here and there. This was before side hustle nation. This was before Uber, before Insta Cart, or something else that I could do to earn money. This was the side hustle app of the age, if you will.

Bethany Bayless:
I just learned very very quickly how much money was worth, and even a quarter was the world to me. It was a chunk right there. It was a great experience because I learned to be frugal. I learned to cut back, and I learned to know exactly what I needed. It was a time that I had zero once.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, I used to give blood plasma a lot. My mother was sick at a point, and that was something that I was a regular there. One thing that I did learn was that they also feed you there, Bethany.

Bethany Bayless:
Yes. Cool.

Bobbi Rebell:
In addition to the money you could get meals, right?

Bethany Bayless:
Yeah. Basically the way the plasma works for people who are not familiar with this process, we will be talking about blood. Just give that disclaimer very quickly. What they do is they hook you up to a machine. They take out a certain amount.
Bobbi Rebell:
It takes a while.

Bethany Bayless:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a process. This isn't just donating blood. This is a different kind of thing.

Bethany Bayless:
Totally different. Because what they do is they put it in a ... It is a word for it. They put it in a machine where it separates it. They spin it really really fast, and it separates the platelets with the white blood cells, with the red blood cells and your hemoglobin, or whatever. Then they give you back your red blood cells.

Bobbi Rebell:
It takes about an hour sometimes. It depends on your blood pressure, believe it or not. Because I had low blood pressure, and sometimes I would not even qualify because you have to be at a certain level, which makes it a very special thing. People really should donate if you do qualify. It's an important thing to do, I should say. You are there for quite a while.

Bethany Bayless:
It is. I would be there sometimes ... Because you had to go in the waiting room first. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Bethany Bayless:
You have to wait-

Bobbi Rebell:
They set it up for you.

Bethany Bayless:
You have to go through this process. It was a chunk of time, but it was exactly what I needed. I went twice a week. I became friends with Rick, who was the guy who ever single week I would go to him. We became friends. He even had the bedside manner of House, very dry, sarcastic, hated the world, but he called me Sunshine. It was a great experience for me to really do it on my own, to do it myself. I thought, why not. It was the epitome of my desperation pretty much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, it is a giving thing to do, and I think it's wonderful that you did that, because even though that wasn't your primary motivation at the time, and I think it's important that people understand that, and that if they are eligible and can do that, it is great to donate plasma.

Bethany Bayless:
Absolutely. Also, I was a universal donor. My blood type is the rarest blood type. I'm AB negative, for anyone who wanted to know. We're finding out so much about each other in this conversation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So much.

Bethany Bayless:
I'm AB negative. It is the universal plasma donor, so anyone could take my plasma.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's wonderful. You didn't mention, what was your favorite snack when you were done? Because they did feed you, so you got food and money.

Bethany Bayless:
Yes, food and money, and I really loved the little cookies. They have little chocolate chip cookies.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yum. Do they have orange juice too?

Bethany Bayless:
Yes, and apple juice, I believe.

Bethany’s money lesson

Bethany Bayless:
The lesson is to do whatever it takes to get by, and to be a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
Within what is legal and what is reasonable. We need to qualify that, Bethany-

Bethany Bayless:
Absolutely. Do anything that was legal. Should I say that again, Bobbi?

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I don't know that people should, for example, donate a kidney, that kind of thing. I think that things like plasma, and things like that, are good, but not actual body parts.

Bethany Bayless:
A kidney or another controversial-

Bobbi Rebell:
We want to be clear.

Bethany Bayless:
... another controversial is donating things like eggs.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Bethany Bayless:
That could have set me up for the entire year, but interesting.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a personal decision. Just be thoughtful about what body parts and things that you give from yourself.

“I could go to a plasma bank and donate my blood plasma twice a week. So that is exactly what I did. I made $240. And my rent was $240 exactly. ”

Bethany's everyday money tip

Bethany Bayless:
Like I said in my story, there was a time when I gave plasma as my last option, it was a time that these apps did not exist. It was not the age of the side hustle, but now I feel like financial grownups have so many options, because you can cut back. There's a limit to how much you can cut back in your budget. There's a limit to how you can limit your expenses.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can only give plasma twice a week.

Bethany Bayless:
You can only give plasma twice a week, but the other thing is that you don't have to limit your income. That is something that there's no limit to the amount of money that you can make. One of the things that you can do is there are a list of apps, things that we've talked about, like Uber or AirBnb, or things like that. Those are already very well known. Other things like Insta Cart, maybe you want to go grocery shopping for people, and you can do it in your spare time. You can pick up times where you just go grocery shopping. It's a great tool to use. I love getting my groceries delivered. If you want to shop [crosstalk 00:10:29].

Bobbi Rebell:
But you can also be the person delivering the groceries.

Bethany Bayless:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
We want to be clear. For all of these, you're not the person getting in the Uber. You're the one driving the Uber.

Bethany Bayless:
That's absolutely right.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's where the income comes.

Bethany Bayless:
Exactly. We have Insta Cart. We have Etsy. Maybe it's time to make things online. There's also some other really great ones, like Rover. It's a dog-walking app. If you want to go hang out with dogs for a day, why don't you download Rover, and you're able to go. You can even teach your kids about being responsible, and take them along with you now that you're a financial grownup, if you have children. Those are some of my favorite apps that you can use.

Episode Links:

Bethany’s websites TheMoneyMillhouse.com and BethanyBayless.org

Apps we mentioned in the episode:

• Uber

• Aribnb

• Instacart

• Etsy

• Rover

Follow Bethany!

• Instagram - @BethanyBayless

• Facebook - @BethanyGraceK

• Twitter - @BethanyBayless

• LinkedIn - @BethanyGrace

Follow The Money Millhouse!

• Instagram - @TheMoneyMillhouse

• Facebook - @TheMoneyMillhouse

• Pinterest - @TheMoneyMillhouse
  

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

After witnessing a friend make over $100,000 trading stocks, Dr. Brad Klontz went all in.. just in time for the tech bubble to bust. He lost the cash, but learned a lot of lessons about the market, and his own mental wealth. Plus: the quiz you can take to find out if you have a money disorder, and what to do about it. 

Brad’s Money Story:

Dr Brad Klontz:
So I didn't start out to be a financial psychologist. I actually started out to be a clinical psychologist, so to get through school I had to take out student loans and I'm sure some other people can relate to this situation. When I got out of school, I owed $100,000 in debt; student loan debt.

Dr Brad Klontz:
I grew up lower middle class. My mom says we were middle-class but lower and taught to be a healthy saver, not to overspend. I was also taught never have any debt, however, that was the only way I could get through school. So I, just to sort of set the stage, I had a lot of anxiety about having this debt. It was something that I wasn't comfortable with.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much debt did you have?

Dr Brad Klontz:
About a hundred thousand dollars?

Bobbi Rebell:
That's a lot.

Dr Brad Klontz:
Yeah, it was a lot, especially back then, but that's what I had to do to get my doctorate.

Dr Brad Klontz:
So I started my internship year. I was over in Hawaii and I saw a friend of mine make $100,000 that year, trading stocks. I would sit next to him at the computer and he'd be like, "Oh, I just bought 200 shares of EMC." I'm like, "What's EMC?" He's like, "I have no clue. Ha, ha, ha." Click. I saw him make $100,000 in the course of a year. I thought, what a brilliant way for me to get out of debt. So I'll just do the same thing.

Dr Brad Klontz:
So I sold what I had of value, which for me mainly was a truck and I put it all in the stock market.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much?

Dr Brad Klontz:
For me it was about like 10 or $15,000. I mean, I cobbled together everything I had and I had nothing beyond that and I put it all in the stock market. So this was everything I owned.

Bobbi Rebell:
Based on this one observation?

Dr Brad Klontz:
Well, I observed this over the course of about a year. So I watched this person make $100,000 trading stocks. So that's where I, where I came up with this idea. So I studied it for six months. I didn't just dive right in, Bobbi, but then I did. I dove right in and I had a fabulous two or three months and then the tech bubble crashed and I sat there and I watched all this money melt away. It was just a terrifying, terrible. I felt so ashamed and embarrassed. I couldn't believe I would do something so radically stupid with my money and I turned to the field of psychology. I did what grad students are very familiar with; I did a literature review, so I was going to dive into psychology and find these studies that have been done to help explain why a reasonably intelligent person would do something so stupid with his money.

Dr Brad Klontz:
I started to do the searches and I found nothing.

Bobbi Rebell:
Really?

Dr Brad Klontz:
Yeah. Really the field of psychology at utterly ignore the topic of money for decades. So I was kind of bummed by that. What I wanted to do was read a few studies, get my head straight, and move forward with my life as a clinical psychologist.

Dr Brad Klontz:
What I discovered is there was nothing there and so I decided to actually have to dig it around in my own financial psychology and what I found is that it was all my mother's fault.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Dr Brad Klontz:
That's sort of a psychology joke.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, your father, you're now in business with your father.

Dr Brad Klontz:
Exactly. But psychologists like to pick on mothers for some reason, typically because they're the ones who are most involved in there. But what I did is I actually, I did, I was like, okay, so I've learned, everything I've learned pretty much from my parents. So what I did is I hopped on a plane and I went back home and I sat down with my mother and then I did this with my father too, and I interviewed them, almost like an anthropologist would.

Dr Brad Klontz:
I'm like, okay, so I have this money psychology, I have no idea really what it is. I have a lot of anxiety around money, but where did it come from? So I sat down with my parents and by the way, as a grad student, I'd put them through this before and so it wasn't unfamiliar. So I was asking my mother, what was it like for you growing up? What was it like for grandma and grandpa around money? I got to tell you, Bobbi, I was shocked by some of the stories I heard.

Bobbi Rebell:
Like what?

Dr Brad Klontz:
Well, the one that was the most shocking for me was that my grandfather, my maternal grandfather, he lost all of his money and the family's money in the Great Depression. So he went to the bank one day and the doors shut. You have no more money. This was a traumatic experience and a lot of the research that we've done since then, there are a lot of these traumatic experiences around money that people have experienced in families or entire cultures or groups of people, and the story gets passed down in the anxiety gets passed down.

Dr Brad Klontz:
That's what happened to him and he's not alone. That happened to a lot of people, but what I didn't know is he lived to be in his mid-nineties he never put a dollar in the bank the rest of his life. That was such a traumatic experience for him.

Dr Brad Klontz:
He's like, you can't trust banks with your money; never put money in the bank again. He put it in a lockbox in his attic and of course it wasn't going so well for him financially and when he passed away, he was living in a trailer park. Super great guy, very generous guy, but was so traumatized by what happened around money, never even entered the door of possibly getting some interest or investing.

Dr Brad Klontz:
Now, my mother had tons of anxiety around money. I knew that. She didn't invest in the stock market, but she would put money in the bank and CDs. What I realized was there's this entire family story that I hadn't even heard of, but I'm playing out the next chapter and of course growing up in that family, I'm like, I don't want to be poor like you guys, so I'm going to do the opposite of what you did.

Dr Brad Klontz:
So I, I call it like a dysfunctional pendulum swing. I went from extremely anxious and conservative to the most risky possible investment and I got burned really badly and if I wasn't a psychologist, I wonder if I wouldn't have sort of blamed the market. This is actually what we're seeing happen now with a lot of millennials where they saw their parents go through a trauma; losing a house, delaying retirement, that kind of thing and there's a general mistrust of the markets and financial institutions within that generation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do you think that's why a lot of millennials, and we're totally stereotyping here, guys are less into buying houses as a generation and less into credit cards, more into debit cards and more in to experiences than owning stuff because stuff you can kind of lose and experience is with you forever.

Dr Brad Klontz:
I think so, and again it is a generalization, but I think that there are surveys that have really borne this out like this. This is a real thing. Like they experienced a cultural phenomenon that has impacted how they look at money, how they look at investing, how they look at risk, and so absolutely. Just like that Great Depression generation had a cultural experience that led to a bunch of hoarding, frankly. A lot of people know relatives who lived through that, who are a bit of hoarders. They're saving stuff. They don't want to get rid of it. They have anxiety about not having enough.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you pull the money out when the market crashed in the tech bubble or did you ride it out?

Dr Brad Klontz:
You know what, I did a combination. I think I actually still own a couple legacy stocks from then that I just hold on to just as a reminder that that we're all vulnerable. We're all potentially vulnerable to emotional decisions around money. I took it in the chin. A lot of these were stocks that just basically went belly up because things were ridiculously crazy back then.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh okay. So it wasn't even an option to ride them out because a lot of good companies went down and then eventually came back.

Dr Brad Klontz:
Absolutely. But I was on the, I was going after the riskiest stocks possible within that tech sector because that's what I had seen my friend do and make $100,000.

“We are vulnerable to emotional decisions around money.”

Brad’s Money Lesson:

Dr Brad Klontz:
So the lesson is this, that the craziest behaviors you have around money, the things that you must struggle with, you're not crazy. They make perfect total sense.

Dr Brad Klontz:
If you understand the story that your family experienced around money and the beliefs that you got based on that story, either your direct experience or the experience that was passed down to you, and the research that we do, we call them money scripts. These are those typically subconscious beliefs you have about money and we've done a dozen studies on this now. These beliefs will predict income, net worth, a whole host of financial behaviors including credit card debt, et cetera.

Dr Brad Klontz:
So these beliefs are extremely powerful and most of us have no idea they're clanking around in our head. So yeah, that's the message I would give.

“I was going after the riskiest stocks possible within that tech sector because that is what I had seen my friend do and make $100,000.”

Brad’s Money Tip:

Dr Brad Klontz:
Absolutely. So it's understanding those money scripts and there's a couple of different ways to do it.

Dr Brad Klontz:
On Yourmentalwealthadvisors.com I've got the test that we've used in all those studies. That's a quick, simple way to look at them, or another way is to actually sit back with a paper and pencil and ask yourself, what three things did my mother teach me about money? What three things did my father teach me about money? If you have the benefit of them being still alive, go interview them, ask them stories. What was it like for them growing up? What was it like for your grandparents? Because again, these messages get trickled down. We have no idea where they came from, but they totally drive all our financial behaviors.

“We saw a 73 percent increase in savings when people got really excited about what they were saving for.”

Bobbi’s Financial grownup tips:

Financial grownup tip number one:

After you take Doctor Brad's Money Disorders Test, which as you heard called me out as being a workaholic and sometimes to a not healthy level, actually do something about it. In my case, Doctor Brad got me started with some ideas by pointing me to a recent video he did on YouTube for workaholics. Among the tips, taking the Rocking Chair Test where you reflect on your life and you think about where you wish you had spent more of your time. We will leave a link to that video in the show notes.

Financial grownup tip number two:

One of the things that Doctor Brad does is that he has a money mantra. For him, it goes something like this. I worked very hard today. I'm really happy with what I did. Now my wife, my children and my health are actually more important to me, so I'm going to stop working right now and I'm going to leave. So maybe we should all make money mantras. Something I've thought about before, still haven't done, something to think about.

Episode Links:

• Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

• Brad’s website - www.yourmentalwealth.com

• Paul Ollinger’s Financial Grownup Episode

• The workaholic video I mentioned

• Money Disorder Assessment

Follow Brad!

• Instagram - @DrBradKlontz

• Facebook - @DrBradKlontz

• Twitter - @DrBradKlontz

• LinkedIn - @DrBradKlontz

• YouTube - @DrBradKlontz

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

After 300 episodes Bobbi shares some of her hardest times as a financial grownup. 

Bobbi shares the Financial Grownup lessons she’s learned from her failures throughout life and how to put a positive spin on those failures.

Follow Bobbi

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

• Facebook - @bobbirebell

Please rate and review the podcast HERE! Your review helps others, like you, to find the podcast!

Learn how physical therapist Chris Mamula changed his whole financial path after experiencing two major life events. Chris shares the key steps he took to achieve financial independence on his own terms. Plus a money tip that will change how you approach gift giving. 

Chris’ Money Story:

Chris Mamula:
It's kind of funny that I'm on the financial grownup show, because I spent the first decade of my adult life doing everything to avoid being a grownup. The only motivation I had at all for learning about finance was how to escape work. And I wanted to basically be a ski bum or a climbing dirt bag, and that was kind of my motivation in life. My wife and I, we were married right after I got out of grad school. And we didn't think we could have kids, and so we were just looking for a way to escape the normal lifestyle. We were kind of in the process of doing so. We were going to move west in, this was probably 2012. My wife had a job offer in Utah with a company that manufactures ski gear and climbing gear. And it was kind of this dream thing, and I was just going to quit my job and we were going to wing it.

Chris Mamula:
And we had no idea what we were doing financially. And after a decade of thinking we couldn't have kids, we found out she was pregnant. And so that was the first shock. So we decided to kind of stay local where our family was so they could help us raise her and just have some support, and also so we could figure things out financially. And at the same time this was happening, my cousin and one of my favorite people in the world, she was diagnosed with cancer and she had multiple kids. And so we were really involved with helping her and helping her family. She ended up passing away about a month before my daughter was born. And so I just had this confluence of events where the highest of high of having a new child who we didn't think we could have, and this, I don't know how spiritual people are, but I kind of consider it a miracle after a decade of thinking that it wasn't even possible for us.

Chris Mamula:
And at the same time watching my cousin who kind of did everything right and she was in the process of dying, and then, like I said, she actually passed a month before my daughter was born. And it really kind of made me just question everything and say, you only have one shot at life. And I wanted to be there for my daughter and I still wanted to live this dream of pursuing this outdoor passions I had. And so how could I figure out how to just build a different way of life? And that's what kind of drew me into this FIRE community, and we ended up doing that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First of all, I am so sorry for the loss and I can only imagine how painful that must have been. What changes did it inspire in you specifically? I know we can make a blanket statement, it brought you into the FIRE community, which is Financial Independence Retire Early. But what specifically changed because of the birth of your daughter and then the loss of your cousin?

Chris Mamula:
Yeah. Something we worried about in the book is this idea of having an awakening. The gentleman who kind of, his name is Dominic Quartuccio, who discussed this concept when he was on the Choose FI Podcast. But he talked about how a lot of times we're aware of things. We're all aware that eating a terrible diet is bad for us or smoking is bad for us. Awareness though generally doesn't drive people to change their behavior and you need to have this traumatic incidents to have an awakening. And I think for me, that awakening was just stepping back, and these things that I've been avoiding for the first decade of figuring out my finances and figuring out how to design a different way of life, it was always there. It wasn't like it wasn't out there, but I just never went looking for it. I don't think I was dissatisfied enough, I guess.

Chris Mamula:
And then when I saw, I had my daughter, and I had this opportunity and I watched my cousin pass, and it kind of made me just get serious. And so I went out and I started finding this information, like I said, it was there all along, but until I had the awakening to go pursue change and actually take action, I was just kind of drifting through life. And I was following really bad financial advice because I never questioned anything, I just always assumed that it was too hard for me, and you needed an advisor and I couldn't figure this stuff out. And what I found, it was really quite simple once I took the time to sit down and just devote a few hours to it. But I'd wasted a decade and tens of really hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees and taxes by following bad advice because I never took the time to learn and to become a grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you were married at this time. Tell me about your wife's role in all of this. Was she on board right away? Had this been something that previously had caused friction in your marriage, the financial, maybe just not paying attention to your money?

Chris Mamula:
My wife and I, we were kind of always on the same page financially. A lot of people think that to become wealthy you have to come from wealth, and we were definitely not that story. I think our biggest advantage is both of us came from fairly meager backgrounds financially, and so within a year or two of starting my career as a physical therapist, I just kind of became, I guess I would say disenchanted with the American medical system and I knew I wanted out. And so for me, saving and becoming this dirt bag ski bum, it was just a way of a totally different way of life. It was kind of a way of escape.

Chris Mamula:
For my wife, she came from a similar financial background, but her family struggled a bit more than mine. And for her saving was just safety, so we always saved. We lived off one salary and saved the other, so we were always doing well there. We just never took the time to learn the technical parts. And once we did start learning, I mean, we were able to save 10 to $20,000 a year in unnecessary taxes and fees that we had been paying without losing anything of quality. So it definitely didn't cause any friction, we were on the same page there all along.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give me one example of something that you changed after your daughter was born.

Chris Mamula:
When we started investing, really the only option we had when we started was to use a commissions based advisory, meaning they're paid on commissions for selling you products. And so the advice he gave us was to invest with him because he could have quote better options than we had in our 401k plan. So we bypassed that 401k plan. So just in income taxes every year we were saving enough we could have maxed them out, but we left probably $20,000 on the table, if not more. And at a 25% tax bracket, right there if it's 20,000, that's $5,000 in income taxes. And then you're investing it in a taxable account, so there now you're going to start generating taxes on your investments, which would be protected if they were in that account. So now we're talking about extra taxes there.

Chris Mamula:
And then over time, those fees, because of the account adds up, the fees that are charged on the assets in that account start to add up. So again, it was between 10 to 20,000. I actually broke down in a blog post how much we were paying, and it was 10 or $20,000 a year just for bad advice. And it wasn't like we did this one time where we got ripped off. It kind of made sense. The way he talked, it made sense and we bought into it, and we did this for a decade.

Chris’ Money Lesson:

I think the lesson there is, I think a lot of people, they wait for that cancer diagnosis, the divorce, the death, something like that to kind of shock them into making changes. What I want to kind of convey and what we're trying to convey in the book is that you don't have to wait to have disaster strike to have this awakening. If you have this awareness but then you see that there is a different possibility on the other side and you know which steps to take, you can start to make change on your own. And that's really what we encourage people to do and that's the lesson I would like to convey.

Chris’ Money Tip:

Chris Mamula:
Figure out what is that thing that lines up with your values. And so for us, it was travel. Instead of taking the time and the money to buy things for gifts, we really took that time and applied it to scheduling vacations and to plan vacations. We took some big trips. So again, I think a lot of people think FIRE is an extreme lifestyle where you give up everything. On our path to FIRE we've been to Africa, we climbed Kilimanjaro and did a safari. We've been to Australia and dove the Great Barrier Reef. We've been to the Super Bowl. So we've done a lot of things that we valued. We value experiences and we value time together, so we spend our time on those types of things.

Bobbi Rebell:
Basically spend time together instead of just purchasing items?

Chris Mamula:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well said.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

This may sound a little bit harsh. Okay. Well, I am not part of the Financial Independence Retire Early movement, AKA FIRE. I am a big advocate for not spending your life at a job that makes you unhappy just for the money or the prestige. But I do also want to remind everyone that your dream job, which maybe is doing really good things for people that you feel really good about, is actually not a dream job if it doesn't pay you well enough to live the lifestyle you want. And be honest about the lifestyle that you want, my friends. Give yourself permission to take a job for the money within reason. Don't be totally miserable, don't get me wrong here. But if the money gives you the freedom to do the stuff you want to do outside of work, it's called work for a reason guys. That's okay. Work can be a means to an end, meaning get you to the way that you want to live. Things you love to do but don't pay are called hobbies.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

If you're thinking about or a part of the FIRE movement, I admire your ambition and your drive. I don't have it in me to do the kind of sacrifices that so many of you make. But for the millions of people who are struggling just to pay their bills right now as we go through this historically painful recession, please be gentle on yourselves. Not everyone can save 50, 60, or 80% of their salary, even if you read every book on financial independence and do everything you can to adhere to the FIRE approach. Sometimes just making ends meet is pretty amazing too, so cut yourself a break.

Episode Links:

• Chris’ website - www.caniretireyet.com

• Chris’ book Choose FI: Your Blueprint to Financial Independence

Follow Chris!

• Twitter - @caniretire_yet

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

When Liz Weston’s dad was on life support, the advanced care directive that would have allowed his children to carry out his wishes was incomplete, creating a potential cost of tens of thousands of dollars. Liz shares her story, a long with advice to protect your family’s healthcare wishes, and finances. 

Liz’ Money Story:

Liz Weston:
my father was visiting his sister in Florida. My father lived in Washington state, and he had a massive stroke. Now, one of the things about Florida is that they're really good at keeping people alive when they have massive strokes, given their population.

Liz Weston:
So he survived it, but he was incapacitated. He didn't know where he was. He didn't know where he was in time. It was grim. And he had an Advanced Care Directive, which for people who don't know, that is the paperwork that basically named somebody else to make decisions for you if you can't make decisions for yourself regarding your healthcare.

Liz Weston:
So he had that document, but the only person he named was his spouse. And his wife was not only older than he was, but after a few weeks, she went home to Australia. That's where she was from. So my father was left in a nursing home, across the continent from his actual home, and we had no way to make decisions for him.

Bobbi Rebell:
So your father was living in Australia?

Liz Weston:
Well, half of the year. Half the year, he's in Australia, half the year, he was when he was in Washington. So he's stranded. And the thing was to get control, to be able to make decisions for him, we would have had to start conservatorships in two states. It would have to been his state, Washington state, and Florida. And when you figure you're putting down $10,000, just to start those proceedings, it was a freaking nightmare.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what happened?

Liz Weston:
Well, eventually, she did come back, and a nurse at his facility all but bullied her into signing a do not resuscitate order, because that was the problem, that he kept having crises. They kept taking him back to the hospital. They'd fix him, they'd send them back. So they were just keeping him alive for no good reason, with terrible quality of life. And that's why he had done the Advanced Care Directive in the first place. He watched my mother die of cancer. He knew how awful that could be when you're like lingering in that state. But because he named somebody who was older than he was and wasn't around and there was no backup, he was stuck in that limbo for four months. So it was grueling. It was awful.

Bobbi Rebell:
And for you and your siblings, what had you talked about in advance of this? Were you aware that this was a missing piece to the puzzle ahead of time, or this just all happened all at once?

Liz Weston:
It happened pretty quickly. I was just relieved at first, that there was any kind of paperwork, because I wasn't sure he had taken care of that. He was very private. He didn't want to be asked about his financial situation. I knew that they had done some estate planning because I'd seen my mother's estate plan, but I had no idea with him. So the fact that the document was even there was pretty helpful, but it would have been much more helpful if there'd been any kind of backup.

“You want to make sure that the person representing you is a honey badger..  It’s somebody that is going to be able to push back against the medical industrial complex and make sure that you get what you want.”

Liz’s Money Lesson:

Bobbi Rebell:
So what is the lesson for our listeners from this? What could be done in this situation? What if, for example, his wife had not come back? I mean, where does that leave you?

Liz Weston:
Yeah, we would have been in court. We would have been spending tens of thousands of dollars, trying to rest control, so that we could do what he wanted done.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. And you're spending money for lawyers when you're not really fighting ... You're just fighting paperwork. No one's actually telling you that they don't believe this is what your father wanted. No one's actually against you. You're just in court because of the way the law is written.

Liz Weston:
Exactly. And we didn't know that there wouldn't be a court battle. I mean, she could have come back at any time and tried to fight. Who knows? But it was just a tense and really, really uncomfortable situation for everybody involved.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much could it have cost you? You said 10 to begin with in each state.

Liz Weston:
Yeah. I really don't know. I know these battles have gone to six figures, but I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that's not to mention the fact that there's nursing care going on during this time.

Liz Weston:
Yeah. And there's where we lucked-out, in a weird way, is because he kept being sent back to the hospital, the Medicare limits reset. And if you don't know, Medicare typically doesn't cover custodial care, which is mostly what he needed, except for right after a hospital visit, there's a limited time when they do. So we kind of lurched from one of those to the next. But at some point, if he continued to live, it would have been on us, all the custodial care, and that is incredibly expensive.

Bobbi Rebell:
So we digressed a bit. Let's get back to what the lesson is and how can people ... especially, if you have a relative that is very private, what options do you have in terms of maybe even just educating yourself to know things like that, the Medicare situation?

Liz Weston:
Obviously, we want to first take care of ourselves. So if you don't have this particular document, go to prepareforyourcare.org. So it's prepareforyourcare.org. They have forms for every single state, instructions on how to do this. That's the easiest way.

Liz Weston:
There's all kinds of questions you can answer about what you want and what you don't want. But the most important thing is to name the right people to make those decisions. You can skip all the questions if you want, if you put the right person in charge. So a lot of us have our spouses, but you definitely should have backup, one backup, maybe two. Ideally, those people will be younger than you, so that they are likely to survive you.

Liz Weston:
The problem with having your spouse is that the spouse might be involved in the same accident that takes you out, or that makes you incapacitated. So that's always a risk. That's another reason why you want to have a backup. And I use the phrase ... You want to make sure that the person representing you as a honey badger. And by that, I mean, somebody who's really willing to get up in the face of the medical care system to make sure your wishes are carried out. It can't be their wishes. It's got to be your wishes. So it's somebody that's going to be able to push back against the medical industrial complex and make sure that you get what you wanted. And that takes a little bit of feistiness.

Bobbi Rebell:
And what about ... are there ways to deal with elderly people that just refuse to speak about it? Are there ways to approach them?

Liz Weston:
Yes. And especially now with COVID-19 going on and people having these horror stories of getting sent off to the hospitals and stuck on ventilators when they don't want to be. I always like to come to discussions like this, having my own ducks in a row. So that's why I suggest, go take care of this first, and then you can bring it up with your elderly parent or the person that you're concerned about. And just talk about that, how you've heard of these horror stories of people getting interventions that they didn't want, or being stuck on life support. And you would like to know what they want. You want to make sure that their wishes are carried out. And do you have an Advanced Care Directive? Do you have somebody that's in paper, that you've named on paper and that you've executed that people particularly document to make these decisions for you?

Liz Weston:
And a lot of people, once you bring it up that way, they're willing to talk about it. You're not pushing and asking about your inheritance. You're not talking about a bunch of other things. This is a real quality of life issue. And I think older people are going to be willing to talk about it. It's not the same as talking about death, interestingly. It's something that's talking about, okay, the quality of life that you are experienced. I think people are more likely to talk about that than maybe death, although there are going to be the death deniers who think they're going to live forever. I don't know what to do about those.

“If there is something difficult you need to do with your money, something you have been putting off make an appointment to deal with it. It can be months from now but put it on your calendar and treat it like a real appointment.”

Liz’s Money Tip:

Liz Weston:
If there's something difficult you need to do with your money, something that you've been putting off, make an appointment to deal with it. It can be months from now, but put it on your calendar and treat it like a real appointment. And there's two benefits to that. One, is that you stop that nagging in your head that's telling you, you should do this. Because even if you're ignoring it, it's eating at you. And you know that, Bobbi, just as well as I do.

Bobbi Rebell:
So well.

Liz Weston:
But then it's something that's on your calendar. And if you treat it as, "Okay, this is the time I'm going to do that." You can make progress on any task, no matter how difficult it might be or how ... It might take more than one appointment, but at least you're getting started.

Bobbi Rebell:
You get that reminder. So give us an example of something that you've done, that, that worked for.

Liz Weston:
Thinking about changing the guardian for my daughter is something that my husband and I talked about, we worked out. Because as your kids get older, their needs change. When they're younger, you can ship them off wherever. When they're older, you want them to be able to finish school where they are. So the person that's taking care of them could change.

Liz Weston:
So we knew that we wanted to do this, and then I completely dropped the ball. All I needed to do is call an estate planning attorney, but I kept putting it off and kept putting it off. [inaudible 00:12:30] weird. So I finally just put a day on my calendar where I'm going to call Bert, our estate planning attorney, and get this ball rolling. And it was there. I took care of it. Boom. It was done.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's a two-minute call, but we have that, where we kind of know in our head, we have all of these two-minute phone calls to make. And I tend to just make lists, and then I push it forward to the next day. But I like the idea of the appointments, especially if it's something that you know can wait. Maybe you're going to sign up for something, but you want to wait and see for whatever reason, if it melds with your schedule, but you also don't want to forget.

Liz Weston:
Yes. Exactly.

“Whatever method you can stick with is the right method”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Nothing is forever and that includes your estate and health care planning documents. I myself realize I might need to update mine after talking with Liz. Estate planning isn’t just about money- more important frankly are things like the advanced care directive Liz talked about. Do the paperwork and make sure you also discuss it with anyone that could be involved should something happen. I’m going to use Liz’ appointment money tip and put an appointment on my calendar to make sure this gets done.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

The coronavirus has taken it’s toll on keeping up with our support system- friends and family we used to just see on a regular basis.. Use Liz’s appointment technique to make a regular catch up time with your friends and family. So for example, you could choose 8am on Tuesday’s and Thursdays and create an open slot and every week book a half hour catch up call with a different friend during those times. I find if you offer a specific time- rather than trading ideas of times back and forth, it is easier to actually make it happen.

Episode Links:

• Liz’s website - AskLizWeston.com

• NerdWallet.com

• PrepareForYourCare.org

• Smart Money Podcast

Follow Liz!

• Twitter - @lizweston

• Facebook - @asklizweston

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Some of the most common advice is also the worst. Bobbi and her guest, certified financial planner Roger Ma discuss some popular myths and how investors can protect themselves - and their money- from going down the wrong path. 

4 Myths About Money and Investing

• Myth #1 - Earning a high salary will make you financially secure

• Myth #2 - Renting is throwing your money down the drain

• Myth #3 - Investing is the most important aspect of personal finance

• Myth #4 - Investing is complicated

Episode Links:

• Website - lifelaidout.com

• Roger’s book - Work Your Money, Not Your Life

• Roger’s book is featured in this Business Insider piece - 11 books to help your grow your career during a recession

Follow Roger!

• Twitter handle - @lifelaidout

• LinkedIn - rogermacfp

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

On a very special episode, More Than Me founder Tiffany Smiley shares the story of her husband’s brush with death, his subsequent blindness, and how she became a financial grownup because of it. Plus Tiffany's money tip on how to improve your personal finances during the pandemic.  

Tiffany’s Money Story:

Tiffany Smiley:
At 23, I was a nurse. I was emergency room nurse. Had my bachelor's in Science and Nursing. I loved helping people ever since I was in kindergarten. When they asked, "What do you want to be when you grow up," I wrote, "I want to be a nurse." It just was in me. And so there was no question out of high school, what I was going to go do. And so I went to school to get my bachelor's in Science. Married my high school sweetheart Scotty, who was a military academy grad. And I always joke that it was the picture of the American dream. He was a newly commissioned officer in the military, and I was a nurse, and our new last name was Smiley. You can't get a better last name than that.

Tiffany Smiley:
But it was the picture of the American dream. Until April 6th of 2005, when I received a phone call at 3:00 AM in the morning. And I was excited, because Scotty would call it different times. But this time it was someone else's voice on the other line. And they said, "I'm so sorry, but Scotty has come face to face with a suicide car bomb." He had been deployed in Iraq. "And there are shrapnel in both of his eyes. And I don't even know if he's going to survive." And this strong leader just broke down and started sobbing on the phone to me. So at 23 years old, my world blew up into a million pieces as well on that day.

Tiffany Smiley:
The next day I resigned from my nursing job, and I took my first one-way flight to meet Scotty out at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, DC. And I remember getting there and feeling so overwhelmed, and feeling the weight of the situation. And I remember thinking, "You just resigned from your job. Scotty is about to have no job. He's completely blind. The army doesn't want him anymore. And you're 23-24 years old. What are you going to do? How are you going to get out of this?" And it was in that moment that I realized, we really can create the future that we want. But you have to be willing to work hard for it, and believe in that vision more than anyone else's doubt.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you also had to take charge of all the finances.

Tiffany Smiley:
Exactly. I resigned from my nursing job. I walk into this situation, and all of a sudden I'm in charge of all of my finances, all of our finances, my student loan debt, our car payment, our rental. And I remember the stress of just having to figure it all out. The silver lining of it is that there's always people that can help. And I realized that very quickly, that I needed to reach out and not just hold it so close, and not share it. But say, "Hey, I need help with this. I need help." Ask. The answer is always no, unless you ask. And so I, all of a sudden, became in charge of it all, in charge of our future, in charge of making sure that we could put the puzzle pieces back together.

Tiffany Smiley:
My money story is that I went from a nurse. So I resigned for my nursing job. I realized very quickly, that's not going to be something I'm going to go back to. That my new future is going to take what I learned in nursing, and I'm going to have to create something totally different to fit my lifestyle. And so I refused to sign paperwork to retire my husband from the military. That allowed him to stay on active duty, which was a huge benefit to our family. And as he stayed on active duty, he went on and did some really amazing things. He wrote a book, he skydived, climbed Mount Rainier, he went to Duke and got his MBA.

Tiffany Smiley:
And in the process of writing his book, I said, "You're not just going to write this and have it go away." So I started a speaking business. And I always laugh, because I'm biology and science. And then I remember being on the phone with accountants crying like, "What do you mean you want a spreadsheet, and what are these numbers?" But you really can figure it out along the way. I never, in a million years, would have thought a source of income for our family in a way of paying off our student loans, and finding space to put a down payment on a house would come from a speaking business.

“It really comes down to being the champion of your own life.”

Tiffany’s Money Lesson:

Tiffany Smiley:
It really comes to being the champion of your own life. And in whatever that looks like, whether you're peeling yourself off the ground, like I had to at rock bottom. But saying, "I'm going to champion this life and I'm going to be a self learner. I'm going to dig deep," because the answers are out there. And I learned that, even though it was hard starting that business. I had no idea about the speaking world. But I learned so much along the way. And I'm so glad. I look back now and I think, I'm so glad I did that.

Tiffany Smiley:
I've learned so much from other people. I've learned so much about running a business. And I do love my accountants now. I wouldn't survive without them. But had I not forced myself into that uncomfortable area, I don't think we'd be living in the freedom that we have now. And so I would just say, be the champion of your life, and be as self learner. Because there is so much knowledge out there. And if I can do it, anyone can do it. You can save a lot of money by being a self learner. And to me, you save money and time. And time is money. So I would just encourage whoever's listening to this, to think outside the box, to champion your own life, and go out and be a self learner.

“You’ve got to dive into books. There is so much knowledge in books. Reach out of your comfort zone.”

Tiffany’s Money Tip:

Tiffany Smiley:
I think number one is, you've got to dive into books. There's so much knowledge in books. One that I just read that I love was by Sallie Krawcheck, Own It. So I always feel like I would reach out to spaces that I'm not very comfortable with. Like I would say that's probably not a book I would normally buy, but I wanted to learn, and I want it to be better. And so I think, reach out of your comfort zone, and read some books that maybe scare you a little bit, or you wouldn't normally pick up.

Tiffany Smiley:
Also there's resources. And people. I always say that we are each other's greatest asset. And we need to tap into each other a lot more. Because something you learned could be something you pass on to me, and it helps me in my business. And just like we hosted in More Than Me, we had you come on, Bobbi, for our expert coaching call, and help the women in our coaching call. I think discussing it, not being afraid to discuss hard topics or money topics or finance, that's something that helped me along the way. So I would say, reach out, grab some books, look for extra resources that are out there, whether they're membership groups, or of course your podcasts, Bobbi. There is knowledge, so much knowledge out there for us to get ahold of.

Tiffany Smiley:
And something I always love to do was after I'd read a book, I would discuss it with someone. So I wouldn't just hold it here close to me. I would go to someone, whether it was a mentor or a friend or someone else in business, and I would run the ideas by them, see if they'd heard of them, discuss them, and ask questions that I had in my own life. And I think there's a lot of value to that. It's very simple. But I think it's something we could all do, especially right now.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also have some resources that you can share with people. How can they learn more about what you're doing, and about you and your husband?

“We are each others greatest asset and we need to tap into each other more.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Tiffany advises that we read a book out of our comfort zone, and then talk about it with someone else. I'm going to add to that, and suggest that we reread books we read when we were younger. Our perspectives change so much. Maybe choose something you read in high school, maybe even middle school. I bet you see it a little bit differently.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Tiffany talks about learning from other people. But other people can also learn from you. So if you have someone in your life that you can help out, maybe take them under your wings a little bit, consider the time to help them learn from you.

Episode Links:

• Tiffany’s website - tiffanysmiley.com

• More Than Me

Follow Tiffany!

• Instagram - @tiffanysmiley9 + @morethanmemvmt

• Twitter - @TiffanySmiley9

• Facebook - @TiffanyMaeSmiley + @morethanmemvmt

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

We ask about friends health, travel plans, and romantic relationships. But not about whether they are ok in their financial lives. Rich and Regular’s Kiersten and Julien Saunders share their experiences trying to get their friends to care more, and actually ask more about each others financial well-being, and money security. 

Julien + Kiersten’s Money Story

Kiersten Saunders:
I quit my job about a year and a half before we were planning on me leaving. And it just got to a point where my time was better spent doing something else. I just felt like my days at work were wasted and that I was losing a lot of energy and creative space to do the thing that was bringing me the most joy.

Kiersten Saunders:
So I had started talking to Julien about potentially leaving early, probably six months before I actually built up the courage to do it. And in that process, he kept pushing it back to me like this is a you thing. You need to decide. And so I finally decided, and the first people I told were my parents, and they were just like, "Okay." And then when I told my friends, it was in the context of planning a brunch. They were asking for open dates because I had already trained them, everything had to be calendarized or I'd forget. And in that process I was like, "Oh, it doesn't matter because in three weeks I'm quitting my job and I'll have a ton of free time." No one had any questions. It was just like, "Okay, do we want a Southern brunch or a buffet?"

Kiersten Saunders:
And it was just like, "Oh." No one asked any questions about it. I didn't think that was odd at the time but in hindsight that's a really odd thing because if I said I was pregnant or if I was moving to another state, I feel like there would be more conversation. There would be more followup questions.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, and in the show what struck me is that you talked about if you were talking about the latest diet, they would have probed every little detail. And yet when you talked about this major life change, no one asked you how are you going to have income? What's going on? Tell us more about your business even, right?

Kiersten Saunders:
Yes, exactly. Yeah. I feel like there are certain milestones that we're conditioned to ask about and other ones that we're not, and anything that requires insight into money or finances or how the family is going to survive, I'm using air quotes, but those are the things that people are uncomfortable asking about probably because it feels invasive.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did it make you realize about yourself? Do you feel that you ask? If you were in the other position, looking back, do you ask friends? Do you feel comfortable asking them?

Kiersten Saunders:
That's a great question. I don't think I do. Conversationally I eventually get to be curious in other conversations, but if someone told me, "I quit my job," the first question isn't, "Well, how are you going to make money?" I might ask other questions like, "Oh, what happened?" or, "How did that feel?" I'm more concerned about their psychology then about where the money comes from, the finance part of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to circle back to this in just a few minutes, but I want to get Julien's story. So you were a little bit ahead of the curve from your wife in terms of leaving your corporate life. Tell us about that experience. Was it similar to Kiersten's?

Julien Saunders:
No, actually. I made the decision to quit about 24 hours before I did. I'd been leading the charge. My wife had our first son in 2017 and literally a few weeks after that we launched the blog. It was a project that I just felt really passionate about and we were both doing it, but obviously she was a bit occupied with a newborn, and so it was just something that I launched because I thought that it was important, but slowly but surely it built up, it was gaining legs and I started to learn more about how it could turn into a business. And as I started to really envision what I thought the possibilities were that was bucking up against a time at my job where things were just getting really, really difficult. We had rental properties, the market was doing well, our portfolio was doing well, our business was doing well.

Julien Saunders:
And we had so much wind in ourselves. I really just realized that, you know what, I don't need this. It was really, really stressful. There was just bad times we were going through who knows what version of another type of transformation or reorganization. And so the combination of work stress, dealing with a newborn, I just said, you know what, it's time. If we're going to make a bet on anything, let's make a bet on ourselves. And I'm really, really glad we did that. But to Kiersten's point, when I decided to quit, no one asked any questions. It was like, "Okay." And I presume they just thought that I'd land on my feet, which I think is a fair assessment, but I don't think at the time anyone really understood. In fact, I don't even think I really understood that we'd be working on Rich and Regular full time. We were still... Had one foot in and one foot out. But I think it really speaks to just how taboo talking about money is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now you're both in this business full time. What kind of conversations, if any, do you have with your friends and family? Do they ask, "How do you guys make money?"

Julien Saunders:
Yes, they do ask those questions, which I think means it's working. What we're doing is forcing people to really look at alternatives and to look inward with respect to how money impacts their lives. And yeah, they're all asking those things and they're blown away when we share the endless list of ways in which you can earn money on the internet. So through us, they are learning about that, and hopefully for those who are able and interested, they might even consider exploring this as a path for themselves.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing that stands out that you guys talk about a lot is the idea of coded language when it comes to money. Can you explain what that is and how it applies to what you guys have gone through in transitioning from corporate jobs to having your own business that a lot of people are curious about, but maybe are hesitant to ask the questions. People use this whole different choice of words.

Julien Saunders:
It's funny because we even catch ourselves doing it every now and then, but I don't know that it's that different from what people do in relationships. And so you use just enough language to make the conversation not seem awkward, but you're not really saying anything. You didn't answer the question, you didn't give the person what they were looking for and you didn't even explore in really what you potentially could have in order to get to the root of the conversation. But yeah, I think there was a moment in the episode where we were talking about how much money you make, and now that I think about it, it almost seems like an SNL skit. But these are very real conversations. It's like, "Well, I'm doing okay." And that doesn't mean... You don't ask how much money you make, but you signal when you say I'm doing okay or we make good money or what was the last one, the upper level?

Kiersten Saunders:
Can't complain.

Julien Saunders:
I can't complain. I can't complain. Things are going well. There's all these things. Same thing in work culture, you get on the elevator with your friends and you ask how they're doing and they say, "Living the dream," and what they really mean is-

Kiersten Saunders:
I'm here.

Julien Saunders:
"I'm here. I'm surviving. I would love to be anywhere but here right now," but they know they can't say that. And so they signal by using this really fluffy language and as funny as it is, I think the problem is, we don't learn that way. We don't really understand how we feel or even respect how other people feel when we continue to use that language. And so we're hoping to inspire better conversations about money by exhibiting it.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that I think is an interesting theme that you bring up is the balance between being transparent to help each other and help your friends and family by being a little more detailed that you joke about six figures can mean really anything, generally good, but it could mean so many different things, but also respecting that there are privacy, there are boundaries that you need to respect as well. So how do you balance that? Especially these conversations about when people probe about your business. In a way it seems like Kiersten you wanted them to ask you more, but yet maybe not too much more, right? How do people navigate that?

Kiersten Saunders:
Yeah. It's one of those things that you have to test and learn, try and see what happens because the answer is going to depend on the relationship that you have with someone and the trust that you've built in that connection, whether or not your boundaries are going to be violated or respected, depends on what you've set the tone with before the money conversation, which is why we stress that money conversations are rarely about money.

Kiersten Saunders:
If you don't have a foundation of trust and respect and love in some circumstances you could end up being hurt by that conversation. It could be something that prevents you from talking about money going forward. So it is this awkward dance that doesn't really have a straight answer, which is why we love video so much because you can see the brow furrow or the frown show up, or the smile disappear or the laugh, there are these nonverbal signals that tell you I'm okay with this conversation, even though to Julien's point, people don't have the words to say, "Yes, let's keep talking." You have to look for the invitation in other ways.

“What we are doing is forcing people to really look at alternatives and to look inward with respect to how money impacts their lives.”

Julien + Kiersten’s Money Lesson

Kiersten Saunders:
I want to say that the lesson without sounding flippant is that people really don't care. Your job, that's not the part of you that they care about. What you do for a living or how you make your money is not the part that people obsess over the way that you may think that they do. It's more around, do you feel confident in your decision? Do you feel good about it? And if that's the case, then I don't have any followup questions for you. And I don't feel the need to pry.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. Julien?

Julien Saunders:
I, in a very rare moment, I agree with my wife. 100%.

Kiersten Saunders:
Is this recorded?

Julien Saunders:
Yeah. No, I agree. I was nodding my head and saying, "Yeah, I think you're right." Because as I was flipping through several instances, I think she's absolutely right. Most people really don't care. In fact, what they're talking about are the good old days, right? Not your future. They're not worried about your future because they trust you. They love you. They want what's best for you. And they're going to support you however they can. But to her point, we tend to overcomplicate those things because we assign so much value to these other things. And we just make these situations muddier than they need to be. And we're not perfect. We trip over our own words and say hurtful things to each other probably more than necessary or usual, but we're human beings.

Julien Saunders:
And we hope that that shows through in the web series and really any other form of communication that we put out there. And so it's really just to encourage people to say, "Hey, don't be so afraid to make yourself vulnerable." I feel like I'm channeling Renee Brown right now, but it's true. Don't be so afraid to make yourself vulnerable, be honest because really, really beautiful things come out of making yourself vulnerable.

“What you do for a living or how you make your money is not the part that people obsess over the way that you may think that they do.”

Julien + Kiersten’s Money Tip

Kiersten Saunders:
So my everyday money tip is to focus on elevating or leveling up the things that you touch every single day. So for us that is the towels, the sheets, the coffee, the silverware, the things that I touch every single day or interact with every single day, when I really, really enjoy them it's like a little surprise that just extends its way through the day versus it being concentrated in something that I might touch every so often. And so for us, I just upgraded all of our towels and bedding and I enjoy every shower. I enjoy going to sleep every night and waking up and interacting with those things all the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
And Julien noticed right away.

Julien Saunders:
Absolutely. I slept like a baby last night.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the towels.

Julien Saunders:
Yes. I was dryer quicker. I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
You know what, we're going to leave it there because I want people to go to your YouTube channel and hear because there's actually a lot more to the story about especially the sheets, but especially the towels. There's a lot of details you guys need to hear about the towels. So we'll leave a link for sure in the show notes to your YouTube channel so people can get the full details.

“Money conversations are rarely about money. It is this awkward dance that doesn’t really have an answer.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Ask if you can ask. If you have a friend or a loved one having economic trouble or success, let them know that while you don't want to pry, you'd love to hear more details if they feel comfortable or as much as they feel comfortable sharing. You might be surprised at how much they appreciate your interest.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

A follow up to the Saunders' tip about upgrading your stuff that you use every day and how great that is. Don't forget that when you do that, don't hold onto the old stuff. My family and I have been cleaning out and we realized, for example, that I have two sheets as back from what we use now, just sitting under the bed in a container.

Episode Links:

• Julien + Kiersten’s website richandregular.com

• Trailer for Money on the Table Video

Follow Julien + Kiersten!

• Instagram - @richandregular

• Twitter - @richandregular

• Facebook - @richandregular

• Pinterest - @richandregular

• Julien + Kiersten’s YouTube Channel

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Cameron Huddleston wrote her new book “Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk. How to Have Essential Conversations With Your Parents About Their Finances” when she found herself confronted with huge issues after not talking to her mom about her money- which she shares on the podcast. The book hits on a huge issue impacting all generations and all income levels. 

Cameron's money story:

Cameron Huddleston:
Yes. I had moved from Washington DC where I was working for Kiplingers Personal Finance magazine. I had moved to my home state of Kentucky, actually across the street from my mom. I said to her, "Mom, I think you need to look into long-term care insurance." She and my father had divorced years before that, and she was living on her own. I knew that if she had any long-term care needs, it would be helpful to have long-term care insurance to help cover those costs. She took my advice-

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, for people that don't know long-term care insurance is specifically to cover things like a nursing home that you would live in. That kind of thing.

“A big benefit of having a third party involved with these conversations is because your parents might be reluctant to talk to you but they are going to listen to the advice of someone else.”

Cameron Huddleston:
Yes, assisted living, memory care, and in case you don't know this, Medicare does not cover those costs.

Bobbi Rebell:
What's a typical cost of that if somebody or their parents end up having to pay that out of pocket?

Cameron Huddleston:
The average cost of assisted living is about $4,500 a month. That's average. A nursing home is 80-$90,000 a year.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, so you moved back home to across the street from your mom, and you're learning about her situation?

Cameron Huddleston:
Yes. I asked her to check in a long-term care insurance. She took my advice. She met with an insurance agent. Unfortunately, she did not qualify for coverage, because she had another preexisting condition that made her too high risk. At that point I should have said, "Okay mom, you can't get long-term care insurance coverage. Let's look at your financial assets, figure out where you stand, and figure out how we would pay for this care if you needed it."

I can look back and say, that's what I should've said, but I didn't. I didn't even think about it at all. Say being what it is, a few years later, she started having trouble with her memory. At that point, I knew I needed to act quickly and talk to her, but because I was already facing a crisis, if I wanted to start talking to her about money, I would have to explain to her why, "Mom, we need to talk about your finances, because I can see you're having trouble with your memory."

I didn't want to have to be the one to tell her that. I didn't care about talking to her about money. That didn't feel like a taboo topic to me. I didn't want to tell her that I thought she was losing her memory. Eventually, with the help of a doctor actually, I got her doctor to suggest that she get tested for dementia, and he did.

During that process I said, "Mom, I think we need to go meet with your attorney and get all your legal documents updated. Because the thing is you have to be competent, mentally competent to sign a will or a living trust, a power of attorney document, and an advanced healthcare directive. If you are no longer competent, you cannot sign those documents."

Then if you get into a situation like my mother did where she is no longer able to make financial and healthcare decisions on her own, if she had not named me power of attorney and healthcare power of attorney, I would have had to go to court, basically put her on trial to prove that she was no longer competent, spent thousands of dollars to get conservatorship for her. I act too quickly. I knew I had to do this. She was still competent enough. I dodged a bullet, but then I had to figure out her finances while she was already forgetting things, and it was so difficult.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. So how did that work? What did you find?

Cameron Huddleston:
I had to approach it very carefully. I didn't want to look like I was going in and taking over, especially in the early stages of her dementia. I didn't want her to feel like she was losing all of her independence. So I just did things little by little.

One of the benefits of meeting with the attorney was that she suggested that we go to the bank, and put me on her account as her representative payee. That's certainly a big benefit of having a third-party involved with these conversations is because your parents might be reluctant to talk to you, but they're going to listen to the advice of someone else. So the attorney said go to the bank. We took her advice, and then that sort of opened the door to having some more conversations about what role I was going to have to play going forward.

She had all this cash just sitting in her bank account. Fortunately, she had not opened an online account. She was so old fashioned, she never used debit card. She used checks. So I was able to go online and set-up online banking for her and monitor her bank account, because one of the issues that she was having was writing checks to every organization that would send her something in the mail, like organization she had no ties to.

So, I had to make sure she wasn't just spending all her money writing these charitable contribution checks.

Bobbi Rebell:
Which is something that happens to a lot of seniors.

Cameron Huddleston:
Oh yeah, it's a big problem. Then you've got to worry about scammers and stuff. I decided to take that money and put it into an annuity. Not that you or I would necessarily recommend that everyone get an annuity, but I knew that it would be a safe place to put her money. It would earn some interest, hands off for several years, and then use it down the road when I needed it to pay for her care.

Cameron’s money lesson:

Cameron Huddleston:
The lesson is please don't wait to have these conversations with your parents. A lot of people I talk to and hear from say, "Well, I don't need to have this conversation yet. We're not there yet. Mom and dad are still healthy." That is exactly the time you need to have it. You need to have the conversations when your parents are healthy. There's not a financial crisis, there's not a health crisis, because then everyone is entirely competent. Your parents know what assets they have, what they don't have, what legal documents they have.

“You need to have the conversations when your parents are healthy. There is not a financial crisis. There is not a health crisis. Because then everyone is entirely competent.”

You have time to get those legal documents if they don't have them. Emotions are not running high. There's so many more options available to you. If a crisis does arise, you can make a plan for how they are going to age comfortably. You can't do that if there's already a crisis.

Cameron's everyday money tip:

Cameron Huddleston:
I think I have a pretty good tip. It's something that I have done myself. I set-up alerts with my credit card account. It's so easy. You just log onto your account online. There's usually most credit card companies will have a place where you can click on alerts and notifications. I set it up to get alerts every time my credit card is used. The benefit of this is that it alerts you to fraud, which has happened to me.

“If your parents are counting on your to be their caregiver.. wouldn’t you rather know this now .. because you might have to prepare your own finances”

It was really an unfortunate situation. I was at a visitation for a family member who had died, and my phone, it was like a little ding from the message. I looked at it and it said my credit card had been used. Then I got another ding that it was used again and I was like, "Wait a second, I did not make these charges." I got on the phone, called my credit card company and I said, "I think my credit card number has been stolen. I want you to flag these transactions as fraud and I want to cancel my card." Thank goodness for the alerts. I mean, I knew right away that there was something fishy.

In My Take you will learn:

Financial Grownup tip number one:

Make sure proactive decisions are being made about insurance, not just for yourself and your immediate family, but also for anyone who is what I would call stakeholders in your family financial ecosystem. So everyone whose finances could impact yours, only you can decide if you need and at what amount you may need. For example, life insurance, long-term care insurance, healthcare insurance and so on.

Make sure those decisions are being made for everyone that is tied to you financially, because the decisions made or not made can and in many cases, will impact your life. So make sure that the people you care about have the information and that they're making decisions. Because obviously as we always say, not making a decision is actually making a decision. It's just not one that you are aware of all the time.

Financial Grownup tip number two:

If you don't feel comfortable having these conversations now, this is what you need to do. Go through in your mind and play out how things could go if you don't get this done, if you don't have the conversations, what happens? It may give you some motivation.

Bobbi Rebell:
Read Cameron's book for example of the reality of how this goes. For her, it was not perfect but she dodged a bullet as she says, but she gives some examples that will certainly motivate you because things can go very bad, very fast, very unexpectedly and with a very high price tag. Even what seems like the most basic things can be huge stresses at the worst time. As an example, a relative of mine recently passed, and when we visited her husband a few days later, rather than focusing on his own emotional healing, he was actually stressed out just trying to figure out her passwords. I mean, that's terrible.

Episode Links:

Blinkist - The app I’m loving right now. Please use our link to support the show and get a free trial.

Cameron’s website - www.CameronHuddleston.com

Cameron’s Book - Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk: How to Have Essential Conversations With Your Parents About Their Finances

Follow Cameron!

• Facebook - @CameronHuddlestonMoneyExpert

• Twitter - @CHLebedinsky

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Harlan Landes lost his car, his job, his apartment and his girlfriend all within 6 weeks. But the hard landing became a foundation for building a blog business he would later sell for enough money to be financially independent and start his dream non-profit.

Harlan’s Money Story

Harlan Landes:
One of the things I was interested in was arts management and being part of a nonprofit organization. So that's kind of where my career trajectory went after college. Here's the issue with that though. There's not a lot of money in that, and I came out of college with a fair amount of student loan debt. Not as much as students coming out of college now, that's for sure, but it was a sizable amount. And the role that I had was not a very lucrative role. It turned out that I was spending more money just to go to work, than I was earning, including my small amount of rent, including paying for food and all of my necessities. I just wasn't coming out at the end of the month with more money than I had at the beginning of the month.

Bobbi Rebell:
And had you been taught anything about personal finances before? And when you took out these student loans, were you fully informed? And did you fully understand what you were in for? Did you know the math ahead of time I guess, when you chose this career path?

Harlan Landes:
I knew that I was going to be in debt, and I knew that that was expected when you go to most colleges, and that it would also be expected that you would get a job afterwards and start paying it back. The details though, and the specific numbers, those weren't things that I thought about, or at least it wasn't imprinted into my brain at all. I just knew about these concepts of debt. I knew that I would have to pay it back. I didn't think about, well, what are my household expenses going to be? What do I need to live? What is rent going to look like? What are the groceries going to look like? How am I going to cook for myself? None of this adulting stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. But then, Harlan, ignorance is really bliss, because you're living your life and the debt is slowly building up, but then, this is where it gets interesting.

Harlan Landes:
Yeah. So as I was going and completely ignoring things, ignoring the money, ignoring my responsibilities, moving from one apartment to another. Because of so many speeding tickets I got because my commute was so long, I was on the road a lot. Those speeding tickets were ignored because I had no money. I found out one day, driving to work, got pulled over and my car was impounded because apparently I had all of these speeding tickets that never caught up with me because my address changed so much and I didn't update the DMV. So many things going wrong in my life. And that was just the start of it.

Harlan Landes:
I also lost my job. I also lost my apartment, and I also lost my girlfriend, all within the same six weeks or so. So this was not a good place for me to be in.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what did you do? You actually did something that not a lot of people were doing at the time. What year was this about?

Harlan Landes:
Oh, this was about 2001, 2002. A couple of things happened then. I was lucky enough that my parents, my parents had been recently divorced. My father was still in the area. He had just moved in with his girlfriend, into her house in New Jersey, and they offered their basement up, well she offered her basement up. And so I was able to get settled and get focused, and find a new job that didn't involve needing a car, public transportation, and get started on the right path.

Harlan Landes:
I found some information online just about managing my money, because that was something that I sat down with my dad and we determined that I needed to make a budget. So I started getting really into it and the nerdy way that I would. And I started writing online. I started a blog. Now I had written blogs before. I had been writing on the internet since basically 1994. So I had a lot of experience writing online, and I decided to write a blog just to focus on what I was learning about when it comes to managing my own money, about investing, about saving money, about using banks and using credit cards and doing all this the right way to help myself, rather than put myself in a worse position. Finally, I was starting to look at my numbers and figure out what I could do to make them better every month. And it became a daily thing.

Harlan Landes:
I started off this blog called Consumers and Commentary, and the first post was basically a banking statement. I showed all of my balances in all of my accounts, all of my debt and just laid it all out there. And I did this anonymously and said, "I'm going to do this update every month. I'm going to post here about different articles and things that I'm learning about money." Really, I was doing it just for myself. I didn't really expect people to read along. Most of the time, people who wrote blogs would just do it for their own journaling purposes and didn't care if they had an audience. Some didn't even have comments, didn't build communities. But at the time I just wanted to focus on how am I going to get better. If anyone wants to read this and join me on this journey, you're welcome to, but I'm going to lay it out, I'm going to do it anonymously, but you're going to know everything about my finances and we're going to figure all this out together.

Harlan Landes:
And then, the recession hit. Suddenly, everybody was looking online for great information about how to save money, how to invest. All of this information started getting really, really popular. Blogs started getting a lot of new readers. Newspapers, with their websites, started looking at the financial blogs as a model, even for their own columns that they would publish online. And it just created this great relationship between bloggers, even some podcasters at the time, and the more traditional media. So it was a great time to be out there and be a part of all this building of financial content that would go on to help so many thousands and thousands of people.

Bobbi Rebell:
But it also became a self-fulfilling thing because your efforts to get yourself out of debt and create your own financial security, actually, that blog, you were able to sell it eventually. Tell us what happened.

Harlan Landes:
Sure. So probably a year, maybe a year and a half into having the site, I decided to put some ads on the website. There were not a lot of ads on blogs before that. And around that time, I was like, "Well, maybe I can put AdSense on my blog," these automated ads, maybe it'll make some money that will cover the cost of hosting the website and give me some satisfaction for the eight hours a day I was putting into writing content for the website, in addition to my eight hours a day at my day job. And it didn't take too long for this to build up. Of course, like I mentioned, people became a lot more interested in what was going on with people writing about money through the recession, companies, advertisers, started getting a lot more interested in getting in front of all of those readers around the same time. So the revenue potential for the website grew pretty quickly.

Harlan Landes:
And I was able to grow that to a point. And I was also looking at the landscape when it comes to earning money online through blogs, when it came to working with different advertisers. And I saw that there was some risk around 2010, 2011, and I became interested in offloading some of that risk by taking advantage of the success that we had through the website and seeing if there would be any potential buyers. And there were several, and I was able to sell the website and that was after it was making, it was earning a significant amount of income for me. I was able to quit my day job. And it became such a source of income that I figured if there's any way for me to offload this risk, it would be best for me at that time. So that's why I sold it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Interesting. And what was your plan at the time when you sold it? Were you going to retire? Did you always want to create some kind of a nonprofit?

Harlan Landes:
My mom had asked me when I was, I don't know, maybe a teenager or a preteen or something, she said, "What would you do if you had a million dollars?" And I said, "Well, I'd start an arts foundation." That's kind of what I said. I probably didn't even know what I was thinking or know what I was talking about at the time. But I was like, I want to support the arts. I've always been a supporter of the arts. And I worked in a music nonprofit after graduation in college and I'm back doing that now as well. But instead of starting an arts foundation or a music foundation, I decided to take what I had been doing the past decade or so, and turn it into a way to support the community that I helped build.

Harlan Landes:
That is why I took the Plutus Awards and turned that into a part of the foundation, the Plutus Foundation. Now I'm doing kind of what I said I would when I was thinking about what I'd do if I had the right amount of resources. It's a little shifted, although I am also spending a lot of my time back in the music field, working with a drum and bugle corps that tours the country in the summer, when there isn't a pandemic, anyway. So I'm doing everything I always wanted to do and I feel really happy about that.

Harlan’s Money Lesson

The lesson that I have is, well first of all, people talk bad about passions these days and they say, "Well, yeah, it would be great to follow your passion, but your passion has to be marketable." I was able to make things work. I got really invested into the whole idea of sharing my stories about money and my money issues. And I was so passionate about it and I made other people passionate about it, and I found a way to make that work. Even though when I started the website, it was never about money. That wasn't even a factor. But like you said, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. It became the solution, or at least part of the solution, to my need to at least support myself. So that was good. So yeah, that's an interesting lesson that I like to share that's a little different than everyone else.

Harlan’s Money Tip

Harlan Landes:
What I would love for people to do is to talk out loud. I was able to write about my financial details, and I shared it anonymously just to make it so that I was more protected in case I wanted to ever look for a job again. My salary numbers, I don't want prospective employers to find out some details about my life so I kept that anonymous at least to start. I was as transparent as I could possibly be, sharing my income numbers, sharing my debt numbers, sharing my account balances. And sharing the truth about the decisions that I make every day, not being afraid to be vulnerable. All of these things can help you so much. We don't have to hide behind our numbers, and we don't have to shy away from this idea of talking about money. The more you talk about your situation, and that can be just talking to people in your life, or putting it out there online for the world to see and for you to be absolutely a hundred percent vulnerable, that will not-

Bobbi Rebell:
And you can be anonymous. You can still be anonymous if you choose. You can do an anonymous blog.

Harlan Landes:
Absolutely. You can be totally anonymous. You can put your name out there, whatever you want to do, whatever you're most comfortable with. It's just more about the stories and the truth, and letting people know that they're not alone in their situation. And that is so important because we all look at ourselves, we see that there's no one like us in the world. Of course, every one of us is unique. Our situation is unique. But there are so many things that we have in common, and if more people would talk about it, then it would be so much easier for everyone to feel less alone. And they can see that there are other people who have gotten through whatever issues they have, or are in the process of getting through it, and we can all join together as a team and solve some of those problems for ourselves. And we can solve issues in the world as we come together as well.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

It is okay, in fact it is more than okay to take a step back. Harlan had a lot coming at him all at once. He went to live with his family as an adult, to deal with it. I, by the way, did that myself at age 30 when I was having a really hard time in life. Cut yourself a break. Don't be afraid to lean on those who love you for support when you need it. Just make sure to say thank you.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Well, Harlan was very public about his financial journey. He also maintained his privacy by writing anonymously on the blog. Sharing doesn't mean revealing personal financial details that can invite trouble. Just be deliberate and thoughtful in what you make public.

Episode Links:

• Harlan’s website - www.plutusfoundation.org

Follow Harlan!

• Instagram - @plutusawards/

• Twitter - @PlutusAwards

• Facebook - @plutusfoundation/

• YouTube

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

As the coronavirus lockdown goes on, more elderly are separated from their families, and managing money for them can be a challenge. Bobbi is joined by Amy Blacklock and Vicki Cook, the team behind Women Who Money, for a checklist of ways we can all make sure our parent and older relatives finances stay on track. 

6 Ways To Help Your Aging Parents With Money

1. Tracking expenses and budgeting

2. Check in on their technology

3. Checking your credit report

4. Monitor Charitable Giving

5. Protecting them from people who are trying to scam them

6. Long term planning for medical expenses
   

Episode Links:

• Amy and Vicki's website - www.womenwhomoney.com

• www.charitynavigator.org

Follow Amy and Vicki!

• Instagram - @womenwhomoney

• Facebook - @MoneyTalkForWomen

• Twitter - @WomenWhoMoney

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Mekanism CEO Jason Harris has always prioritized face to face human interaction. But since that’s not an option, he has found specific ways to re-create that experience online, and is getting results. Jason shares them, along with how strategies from his bestselling book The Soulful Art of Persuasion can be adapted to the evolving work from home culture. 

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get into some of your strategies from The Soulful Art of Persuasion, and how we can apply them to what so many of us are experiencing right now. Now, you break it down into four areas. The first one, you really like to talk about being original. How does that apply to what's going on now, and how can people leverage that concept?

Jason Harris:
Yeah. So I think that this concept applies in a pandemic, in a shelter-in-place, or not. But the idea of being original is really about showing some psychic skin, being vulnerable, being yourself, not doing the typical sales beliefs that you typically hear, which is mirror and matching your audience, or trying to find common interests to make them like you so that you build a relationship, so you can create a transaction.

Jason Harris:
It's really about being strong enough to be vulnerable and putting yourself out there so that somebody learns your idiosyncrasies and what makes you tick, so that they will do the same and share with you. That creates a bond. So it goes against conventional selling wisdom of mirror and matching your audience, and it's really about leaning into who you are and being yourself. So that's really fundamental to persuasion.

Bobbi Rebell:
So can you give us an example of how that would be applied in this environment?

Jason Harris:
So how it might be applied in this environment is really trying to think of telling the story. So when you might be on a Zoom or Skype, or what have you, with a new client, or an existing client that you have a relationship with, try to think of telling a story, an original story about your experience. It could be good or bad, it could be something good that happened, it could be a challenge that you had to overcome.

Jason Harris:
Try to avoid just doing the typical, "Yeah, it's hard. I can't wait to when we get back. Nobody knows anything. What do you think of Fauci?" Really try to relay a personal experience or an antidote that will get the other person, over video, to open up to you and create more of a collaboration or a bond. But that takes preparation and thinking through a story that you want to talk about versus just hopping on and saying, "How are you? I'm fine." So that's one way you can do it.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you'd have to build in the time for that and maybe have something prepared, like a funny anecdote prepared, something you did with your kids or something going on somewhere else that's interesting.

Jason Harris:
Yeah, exactly. For an example, I tell a story, my kids are in California and I'm in New York during this. I might get on and say, "It's been hard FaceTiming with my kids and we needed to create something, so we do an hour a day and we're writing a children's book together. We go around and each session ... I have two boys. One of us leads the story and we're writing the story that way, and that's a way for us to bond because I'm missing my kids and I'm missing an experience. So I'm creating an experience through this with them." And so that might be a story that I would tell that someone would remember, and then they might share an interesting story or some hard thing that they're going through and how they're getting through it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing that you talk about is generosity, being generous. Can you talk about how that applies, maybe with like online etiquette and how we behave online?

Jason Harris:
Sure. So generosity, the basic ... That's principle number two, and the basic principle there is giving something away without expecting anything in return. And that can be advice, it could be stuff, it can be your time, it could be an article that you found. One way I do this during this time, is instead of thinking of broadcasting ... You might post something on Instagram or one of your social platforms, and broadcasting it out to all of your followers at once with something that you're saying. What I try to do during this time, is think about people that I'm trying to connect with. It could be personal, it could be professional, it could be past clients, clients I'm trying to attract. I think of an interesting article that I found online that I can email or text them directly, that would apply to them, instead of just putting myself out there to all the followers and not making it a one-to-one connection.

Jason Harris:
So during this time I'm thinking of one-to-one connections that make people when they might have anxiety, or they're at home, or they're bored, know that I'm thinking about them. I do that simply through an email or a text. Something that I know is of interest to them, I'll send them a thought. Or I'll do a little search on, if my client is in the dating app business, I might find an interesting survey and text it to them, even though we're not necessarily talking about work. And it just says, "Hey, I'm thinking about you." So that's one way I apply ... That's, to me, an act of generosity, because you're creating a one-to-one connection.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also talk about, in the book, how to survive a social catastrophe in terms of especially online connections. How do you do that? What could happen? What kinds of things have you observed happening or heard about happening and what can people do?

Jason Harris:
During this time I don't know if I've necessarily heard of more catastrophes, but how to recover from a social catastrophe, I always think about Watergate, I think about Richard Nixon. The famous quote from that time was, "It's not the crime, it's the cover up." And you think about Bill Clinton, it's the same thing. It's not necessarily what he did, of course, what he did was strange and odd and off with Monica Lewinsky, but it's the fact ... It was the cover up, the fact that he said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." It's the fact that Richard Nixon denied that he was breaking into Watergate to steal documents.

Jason Harris:
I think that is the biggest thing. It's really, if you do do a mistake online, you have to be honest with yourself that you did it. You have to look at why you did it, what was behind the idea, so that you can then simply come out and apologize. So it's really ... That's one way, when you do something that you shouldn't have, you have to explain why, and then apologize quickly for it. And when you let it drag on or you deny it, it all comes out in the end, and that's when you get in deep trouble.

Bobbi Rebell:
The third principle you talk about is about being empathetic.

Jason Harris:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
How does that apply these days? I mean, it has to do a lot with the way that you communicate, especially in these times when it's a little bit awkward for many people. Not everyone is so comfortable here, and you have to collaborate with people in this new setting that is very unnatural and clunky sometimes.

Jason Harris:
It is clunky. Yes, it is. One thing that you pulled out from the book is this idea of collaboration, and that it's really important to collaborate. If you want to persuade people, you have to think of interest, not of reason. So you have to think of what makes that person tick, what's behind that person. Not logic and facts and data to convince them. It has to be about something that they would care about to get them on your side.

Jason Harris:
And so back to I'm trying to convince an ad campaign that we're trying to develop, I have to convince people on the team why we want to do this campaign versus the other campaign. So I have to think about what elements that they might like or what a client might like, or what would appeal to the brief that the client sent me, and try to make them feel like they are creating it with us or with me. So if someone feels like they're on your side, the chances to persuade them jump dramatically. If they feel like they have an idea and you have an idea and you're on different sides, then it's going to be very hard to persuade them.

Jason Harris:
And so for people doing work at this time, I'd recommend if you're working with a client, doing multiple check-ins to get to whatever you're trying to sell or present, or get them to buy off on or persuade them on, so that they're building the idea or the concept, or whatever, the sponsorship, whatever it might be, they're building that with you because you're doing multiple touch points, which are even more important when we're doing everything over video. So collaboration is really a critical element to selling.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's challenging because I mean, you've talked about it in your book, that it's really important to get in front of a client to show them, make the trip, travel around the world, to see them in person. That doesn't happen anymore. So it's interesting that you're saying now it's the frequency of the touch points is a really important thing.

Jason Harris:
Yeah. That's a good recall on the book. That's impressive. But yes, I mean the in person persuasion and selling to create your business is kind of everything. And so that in person touch about being with them, when you take that away, the only replacement is to see them more often and frequently because you can't be in person with them. It's not I'm going to go away for two weeks and then come back and present you this huge deck. It's about doing multiple check-ins. It takes more work quite frankly, to do that, but they're going to feel like they're bought in with you and they're collaborating with you, and your chances of persuading them, whatever it is that, whatever your business is, will go dramatically up.

Bobbi Rebell:
The final principle that you talk about in the book is soulful, and it also obviously lends itself to the title. This, to me, is the hardest thing to communicate and to be successful at, given the tools that we have right now. I mean, how does that translate to the way that we're working now and the way that we're communicating, not just a business, but with friends and family as well?

Jason Harris:
Yeah, that is the hardest thing to do right now. The final principle of soulful, the concept behind it is really that whatever skill you have, whatever you're doing, you need to also add a layer of purpose, something that's greater than yourself, where you can become an inspirational person. And so for me, it's using my advertising powers to do social good campaigns, do pro bono campaigns, because that's inspirational and that's persuasive, and that's doing more than just thinking about profit and being transactional. It's doing something bigger and better for the world.

Jason Harris:
Anyone can really apply that principle in whatever skill that you have, but during this time, you really have to figure out how to do that in a way that ... You're working hard and everything's more challenging, but how can you do that in a simple way? So an idea might be that if you're a financial expert, you might find a group that really could use, Bobbi, the books that you wrote, and you would donate those books. Or maybe you'll do a reading to an online class about some of the principles in your book or a story that you might find. You'll just do that for free, for goodwill, to get people talking. And maybe you name that thing that you're doing to educate students or to the financially insecure or unstable. Maybe you're helping them with some techniques or are doing some storytelling. Maybe you do that half hour a week, and people can do a live webinar and tune in for free.

Jason Harris:
But whatever your skill is, apply that to do something that's good and it'll make you feel good. It'll make you a more persuasive person because it shows that you truly don't just care about your own business, but you care about the greater world. And that inspiration will make you a more influential person.

Episode Links:

• Jason's website - www.thesoulfulart.com and mekanism.com

Follow Jason!

• Instagram - @jason_harris

• Twitter - @jason_harris

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Money fights happen all the time. But with the coronavirus pandemic keeping so many families together 24-7, learning how to manage those money disagreements is mandatory if we want to get through without a total relationship meltdown. Financial Grownup Amanda Clayman, a Financial Therapist and Financial Wellness Advocate with Prudential, shares her strategies and a money tip to help us cope, and hopefully thrive. 

Amanda’s Money Story:

Amanda Clayman:
It's really funny because even as a financial therapist, it's not like I'm ever outside of the work. I still deal with money every day. I deal with it personally. I deal with it in my marriage. When I got married, I really thought this is clearly my area of expertise. I'm going to run the show. And yet, one of the things that I discovered is that in my family of origin, my mother was the one who really managed the day-to-day finances, and in my husband's family, his dad did it. Both of us came into the marriage thinking, hey, this is my territory. As a result, we sort of went head-to-head for the first couple of years, and it didn't help that we have very different money personalities from each other.

Amanda Clayman:
For example, Greg really wanted to have a lot of control over money, but he didn't want to manage it the way that I did. He used to have a kind of laissez faire attitude towards scheduling money tasks. He would pay bills late. We would get these late fees, and this was like if you can imagine a cartoon where like the steam is coming out of your ears, that would be my response to what I felt was just the chaos of our financial life.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just to clarify, he wasn't paying bills late because there was actually a lack of the funds to pay. He just was not prioritizing that. It wasn't something that he valued.

Amanda Clayman:
Exactly. He was very spontaneous. There were a million things that he would rather do than pay bills, but weirdly he didn't want anybody else to be doing it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. You could have just taken it over.

Amanda Clayman:
Right. It's not a good personality trait to like, I want to control something, but not do a great job in controlling it, but that's obviously sort of my point of view speaking there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Amanda Clayman:
One of the things that we did, because we just kept butting heads and I felt very shut out by this it and it just made me crazy, we sat down and we calculated over the course of a year generally sort of what these late charges added up to. The number was not an insignificant number. It was in the hundreds of dollars over the course of the year. When you say like, is that a good use of a couple hundred dollars, obviously the answer is no. But the way that my husband put the question to me was, would you pay this amount of money to end this argument? I appreciated that reframing because, A, ending the argument was certainly something that I wanted to do and I was only looking at the way to end the argument by getting my way, as opposed to sort of focusing on quantifying the problem.

Amanda Clayman:
It's a technique that I've used professionally with lots of people that I work with is how do we really sit down and not say is this behavior good or bad, but really how can we quantify what the consequences are, what the negative effects are, and be able to use that information to frame our decision-making process.

Bobbi Rebell:
How was it eventually resolved? You just accept it, or have you over the years switched where he is paying them on time or you're paying them, or is this still a situation that you live with?

Amanda Clayman:
Over the years, I think we have met more in the middle as we've been financial partners and life partners with each other, but also one of the things about our system, and this also is part of my framework for working with couples, is that we have a pretty flexible arrangement. There have been periods where he's been busier and I have transitioned into the lead financial manager in our family, or certain circumstances, for example, like when we had to move and things were a lot more unstable financially in our family, like in terms of we were both working for ourselves, cashflow was really variable, that is not a situation that I really... I find it really emotional. I don't like it, so I transitioned out. He took the lead during that period.

Amanda Clayman:
At this point, that was the beginning of the marriage where we just hadn't really established a working trust with each other. Now I would say that that flexibility, but also that sustainability, that was an okay arrangement for us. I was willing to make that compromise in the beginning, but I wonder if over time it would have been unsustainable for me and probably we would have needed to revisit it.

“We are wired to be very reactive to things that happen with money and sometimes that re-activity is not proportional to the actual threat”

Amanda’s Money Lesson:

Amanda Clayman:
one thing to understand is that money is directly wired into our sense of survival. When things feel out of control with money, we tend to just... Our brains light up like a pinball machine. We're wired to be very reactive to things that happen with money. Sometimes that reactivity is not proportional to the actual threat. Like a disagreement with someone, let's say that you and a sibling need to make a decision, for example, about a family... Like what to do with the parent's house when it's time for them to move into a retirement community. You and your sibling may not disagree. That may feel like a relationship ender because it feels like such a huge issue. I advise people to be able to recognize, to look for the values underneath what's guiding the decision.

Amanda Clayman:
If somebody comes to a different conclusion than you when they're looking at the same numbers, it's probably because they have a different set of associations, different things are important to them about that decision. This gives us a tremendous opportunity to really expand our empathy, to even find a deeper level of connection with people when we're able to understand that money is not just the domain of rational facts, but something that is so deeply personal. It's a way for us to get to know each other and to speak on that level of values in order to try to connect and come to an agreement.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. We all come to money from so many different experiences in our life.

Amanda Clayman:
That is very true.

“Money is not just the domain of rational facts. But something that is so deeply personal. It’s a way for us to get to know each other and to speak on that level of values, in order to connect and come to an agreement. ”

Amanda’s Money Tip:

Amanda Clayman:
One of my favorite things about being a financial therapist is that I'm able to work with the dual nature of money, meaning that money is simultaneously a symbol, we project a lot of meaning onto it, and it's a tool. We can quantify. We can exchange it. There are all kinds of things that we can do with it. Where we are experiencing pain and distress around something that's happening in our financial life that we want to change, there's such an opportunity to quantify that distress to, A, be able to check just like Greg and I did in terms of like is the amount of pain that I'm experiencing over the situation proportionate to the dollar amount relative to what's happening in my life.

Amanda Clayman:
We can do that too if we say like, I spend too much money on X. Quantify what you spend on X. Be able to see like is this really a threat or is this revealing something to me about my own relationship to my needs or how I use money to take care of myself and messages I was told about whether or not that's okay. We can even get in there and instead of saying like, "I'm going to cut this out," we can say like, "I'm going to take restaurants down by 50%, or I'm going to increase savings by 30% moving forward." We can start to adjust these numbers and really get at a healthier place internally because we're working with both the symbolic value and the tool property.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's kind of like, you had said before, knowing your money triggers.

Amanda Clayman:
Yes. I feel like looking at sort of what pings us emotionally is really where the work is when it comes to financial health.

Bobbi Rebell:
Very well said.

“What pains us emotionally is really where the work is when it comes to financial health. ”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Amanda talks about money triggers. I know I can spend freely on things that may be important to me and get very upset if I am questioned about those decisions. But on the flip side, if I see a member of my family spending on something I think we don't need to pay for, maybe let's say a taxi to go 10 blocks to avoid being late for an activity rather than maybe plan a little better in advance and walk, I'll get very upset.

Although if we're being honest, I've done it a couple times, but not a lot. But after hearing what Amanda said, I went and looked up the total cost of what I view as unnecessary taxis. You know what? It did add up. But at the end of the day, as Amanda said, I asked is, it worth having a fight each and every time it happens than having tension for days afterwards? More importantly, do those arguments even solve the problem? The truth is it doesn't and it won't because we don't all see that as a problem.

Maybe even though it is not the best use of money, to keep the peace, it may just have to be baked into the budget and we need to make adjustments in other places, at least until the other person decides not spending money on something like that rather than just leaving on time, time management issues, whatever you want to call it, is also important to them. The truth is we all have different things that are important to us and we have to kind of make peace sometimes with the fact that they don't always align with other people that we are connected financially too.

Financial grownup tip number two. Amanda talks about periods of time when we face financial instability and that is happening right now to so many of us. Personally, some of my projects are just influx.

We don't know. Until we get out of this horrible economic situation, I'm coping by just reminding myself that this was not caused by anything I could have controlled. If you are feeling down, please take that to heart. If you are having economic setbacks, please don't blame yourself. Sadly, it's still probably on you to find solutions to the problem, but just remember you didn't create it.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Amanda talks about periods of time when we face financial instability and that is happening right now to so many of us. Personally, some of my projects are just influx.

We don't know. Until we get out of this horrible economic situation, I'm coping by just reminding myself that this was not caused by anything I could have controlled. If you are feeling down, please take that to heart. If you are having economic setbacks, please don't blame yourself. Sadly, it's still probably on you to find solutions to the problem, but just remember you didn't create it.

Episode Links:

• Amanda’s website - www.amandaclayman.com

Follow Amanda!

• Instagram - @amandaclayman

• Twitter - @mandaclay

• Facebook - @AmandaClaymanFinancialTherapy

• Pinterest - @claymanamanda

• LinkedIn - @amandaclayman

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

A lot of us feel squeamish about selling but even movie stars have to sell their work. Ash Ambirge, author of The Middle Finger Project: Trash Your Imposter Syndrome and Live the Unf*ckwithable Life You Deserve shares her story of getting inspired by Brad Pitt to get past her fears and succeed at selling.

Ash’s Money Story:

Ash Ambirge:
When I was watching TV one day from my apartment in Santiago, Chile, where I was living at the time, an ad for Brad Pitt's new movie popped onto the TV. And there, this guy is like giving this big interview. He's all over the place. He's really excited about his new movie. He's telling Oprah or whoever, Ellen at the time, all about this thing that was coming up. And I looked at him and I thought, "Oh my God, even people like Brad Pitt need to promote their stuff. He's not exempt from this either. And look at him doing a fine and eloquent job."

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you translate that to yourself?

Ash Ambirge:
Yeah. So when you see Brad Pitt standing up and saying, "Hey everybody, so my new movie comes out on March 3rd and here's what it's about and I really hope you guys show up," you realize that the key to selling has nothing to do with selling, it has everything to do with enthusiasm. Brad Pitt was enthusiastic about his movie and I wanted to feel that way too about the stuff that I was selling.

Ash Ambirge:
And so I started switching my approach. Every single thing that I was doing, whether it was an event or not, I started telling everyone about with the utmost enthusiasm. Because when I believed in the things that I was creating and making, other people automatically felt like they could believe in it too. And it created this chain reaction. And a part of that was also understanding that I could no longer sell the things that I wasn't really enthusiastic about.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. So true, and yet we don't always really process things that way.

“Selling is always helping”

Ash’s Money Lesson:

Bobbi Rebell:
what is the lesson for our listeners from that story? How can people make it their own?

Ash Ambirge:
Whenever you go into any interaction, and it doesn't matter if you're an employee or you are a freelancer, you have to approach it from the perspective of an advisor. This is what I look at now and it's like, "Okay, hey person. Yes, I'm really excited. Here's the stuff that I'm doing. Here's how I think it could help you." Talk to them about what you actually have to offer in the most brightest and brilliant way you can muster, as opposed to looking at it like, oh, I'm just a lowly employee or a lowly freelancer and I'm here just to kind of take orders from people and wait and hope that they give me their money and hope that they see that I'm actually awesome.

Ash Ambirge:
Instead, you have to look at it like you're an advisor and you are here to just be the most enthusiastic you can about this thing that you are selling. And when you approach it with enthusiasm and like, "Hey, I'm just here to help, let's talk about how I can help you," it changes everything from feeling ick and salesy, to being like, "Oh my gosh, this person is my guardian angel. I'm so excited that their here." They will be thrilled to hear from you.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that shift in mindset is key because people can tell when you're selling versus helping them. There's a difference.

Ash Ambirge:
Yeah. Oh yeah. And that's it, selling is always helping. We always feel like we're bothering people, but if you genuinely set out to help somebody, it doesn't even matter if you're just great at makeup, if you are great at finances, whatever the thing is that you're great at, that's all you're doing. You're showing up and being like, "Hey, do you need my help?" That's it. It's simple. "Hey, do you want my help? I have this thing for sale. You can totally buy it. Let's do it."

“Enthusiasm is the greatest pitch there is”

Ash’s Money Tip:

Ash Ambirge:
It does have to do with hot dogs and Jersey. It's called the hot dog theory of money. The hot dog theory of money is to help you anytime you get all scared and intimidated when you are sitting there in your boss's office, or you are asking a client to give you more money, A, because hotdogs are hilarious, and B, because they really do simplify this and make it way less scary.

Ash Ambirge:
So if you were a vendor on the Jersey shore and you're out there selling hot dogs, and some guy comes up to you and is like, "Yo man, hey, how much for a hot dog," you are not going to hm and haw and get all nervous about stating the price of the hotdog, you're not going to say, "Well, since it's the first time that you're here, maybe we could work out a deal," or, I don't know, "Did you have a budget in mind for how much you wanted to spend?" None of that, because we understand intuitively that if we're actually a vendor selling a hotdog on the Jersey shore, the price is the price is the price for a reason. It includes all of the manufacturing costs, it includes the delivery, it includes the packaging, the branding, it includes my time sitting there just selling these hotdogs, and whatever other costs are involved.

Ash Ambirge:
And it also is going to include the person who owns the company. It's going to include their profit, and we never ever factor in our own profit and our own worth when it comes to asking for money. So, the next time you have to ask for it, think about it. You are just stating the price of a hot dog. That's it. This is what it costs, would you like to buy it?

Bobbi Rebell:
That just makes so much sense. And that's something that really was a huge turning point in your business because you were making mistakes early on, and then by having that mentality, you started to have firm prices and it changed everything.

Ash Ambirge:
It did. I used to work in advertising before I became a freelancer, and one of the things I learned from that was they would send us out with rate cards and the rate was the rate was the rate for the magazine. And it was very straight forward. So I adopted that posture when I walked into meetings with my own clients now and just said, "Hey, so here's how much it costs. Here's what it includes." It's so much less complicated than we make it in our heads. The price is the price is the price for a reason and that includes every single thing about you that you're bringing to the table, from your enthusiasm about your stuff, to the way that you package it, to all the stuff that you know. I mean, it is so worth it, but sometimes we may seem way harder than it is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, it's hard because we can be insecure about our own self-worth. And your book, one of the many things that I love about it is there's so much in there that can give us the confidence to be more secure and to be stronger in negotiations, and also in advocating for ourselves and for our businesses. One of my favorite quotes in the book, there's so many, but anyway, one of them is, "If you build it, they will come is basically for a jelly donut to magically appear in your hand."

Ash Ambirge:
Okay. Seriously. I mean, and for my listeners, this is the kind of stuff, but you're making a real point. It's just not going to happen if you just think they're going to come because you built it, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah.

Ash Ambirge:
But the key really goes back to enthusiasm. Like when you are enthusiastic about the thing you're selling, even if it's yourself and your talents, then great. And it just shows up naturally and you don't have to put all of this weird professionalism around it and all this weird like anxiety that happens. Like you're just there to help everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
And speaking of that, one of my favorite quotes is, "Enthusiasm is the greatest pitch there is," because of just what you said. If you love something and you believe in it and you believe that it's going to help the person who might potentially buy it, that's a much stronger sell.

Ash Ambirge:
It's a much stronger sale. And I've sold myself to companies that way as an employee and as a freelancer, no matter what it is. That's what they love about working with people because no one ever hired anyone to be unhelpful, right? So if you can demonstrate that you are here to legitimately help them, that's wonderful. And then they can figure out how to teach you the on the job stuff that they need to know. Enthusiasm is so underrated.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And a lot of us get tempted to offer to do things for free just to prove ourselves. But another one of the quotes that I love is, "Charging money is a sign they can take your offer seriously."

Ash Ambirge:
Yes. And so is showing up consistently for yourself in whatever form, and following up with those clients in some kind of a very systematic way shows them that you take their business seriously and they can trust you. Because there's nothing worse than some guy who's like, "Hey I can help you with your SEO for your website." And then he's like, "Hey, just give me admin access to your site," and doesn't do any kind of like contract or have any kind of process. Having those processes in place and actually sending out those kinds of things and charging fair good money is a sign the client can trust you.

“Charging good, fair money is a sign the client can trust you”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

You can find inspiration everywhere. Brad Pitt, not the first person you think of when it comes to business necessarily, and he didn't come from a privileged background. Brad Pitt did not go to a fancy college and he isn't even officially in the sales business, except he is, and to a large degree, we all are. Even if you are just even applying for a new job or trying to get a new client, you're selling yourself as a solution to their problem. That's the job to fill.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

With all of us working from home these days, there is a temptation to go super casual. And in some cases, that can work, but Ash talks about processes, having set prices and being professional, running a business, a professional business. People take you seriously then. Let's not forget that you still need to be on time. You still need to look neat and professional, even if it's a little bit more casual. You want to follow up efficiently just like you would if you were getting up and going to an office. If you want somebody to give you money, don't forget her advice. You need to be enthusiastic, even as hard as it may be with everything going on these days.

Episode Links:

• Ash’s website - www.themiddlefingerproject.org

• Ash’s Book - The Middle Finger Project

Follow Ash!

• Twitter - @TMFproject

• Facebook - @TMFproject

• Instagram - @the.middle.finger.project

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Pre-coronavirus we joked with Dumpster Doggy Blog’s Amanda Holden about her decision to upsize her life and move to New York City, and all the ridiculous expenses that were becoming part of her new NYC life. 

Amanda’s Money Story:

Amanda Holden:
I just made the move. I came out to New York City alone. I've never lived on the East Coast before. I moved from Portland, Oregon, and so it was a super big change, but one that I had started thinking about probably about a little bit more than a year, a year and a half, two years ago as something that I wanted to do. And so I saved up my money. I built up my business. I waited until I was ready and then I moved out here for no reason other than I wanted to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. Tell me more about what the change was like financially.

Amanda Holden:
Sure. So I did market research on rent prices and then also just normal cost of goods, groceries, also sales tax. I moved from a state that didn't have sales tax, so everything is going to be automatically about 10% more expensive in New York City, so taking that into account as well. And what I did, and this is not necessarily what everybody has to do, but what I did is I wanted to make sure that I had a year's worth of rent saved and a year's worth of my business taxes saved. So I actually saved quite a bit of money in cash before making the transition, knowing that it's really hard to understand how expensive it's going to be to live in a city until you're actually doing it yourself.

Amanda Holden:
I asked friends and I can hear from them, but they live different lives than I do and so what I spend money on is not what they spend money on. I knew that some of it's a guessing game and just getting to a point where I had a big enough cushion that I felt comfortable doing so was essentially all that I did. And I'm really lucky in that I am extremely light on my feet. It's just me. I moved with literally two suitcases and I'm not even exaggerating, and that just makes it really easy as well. If I need to pick up and leave and go back, then I can certainly do that, which helped give me some flexibility as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
So tell us more about what was as you expected financially and what surprised you financially moving to a bigger city and a more expensive city?

Amanda Holden:
Bobbi, every single cocktail here cost at least $18.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, that's not bad. 18 sounds about right. Definitely, you can go more.

Amanda Holden:
It's truly terrible. So I moved from Portland, Oregon, but I also lived in California for the majority of my adult life. I was in school in L.A. and then working in investment management in San Francisco. Which is an expensive city.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's an expensive city.

Amanda Holden:

It's not cheap there either. No, it's not. But when I was there, the years that I was there, I left actually in 2013, which is crazy that it was so long ago, you could absolutely, the bars I went to, you could absolutely walk in and get a whiskey soda for $6 or $7. At least the places that I was going to. But in New York city, I don't think that I quite expected that my fun budget was going to need grow by more than double because Portland is a really cheap uneasy place to drink. And so that has been a surprise. Obviously, I'm paying more in rent, but there's some other things where I feel like I'm saving money. I don't have a car here. I had a car in Portland, and so that's nice. I love being able to walk. I love living in a walking city. I love public transportation.

Amanda Holden:

That's been really great to not have to have my car and so after it all shakes out, yeah, I'm definitely spending more money here, but I'm also just pretty naturally good at sticking to a spending plan and even in a more expensive city, I do a pretty good job of saving.

Bobbi Rebell:

One thing that a former guest here on Financial Grownup said, Barbara Corcoran, she talked about the fact that she liked having a little bit of a fire under her because it made her want to earn more. And she says it works, that needing to have more money to live the life you want actually motivated her successfully to earn more money. What do you think about that? Do you think that being here has helped your business because you want to do all the things, you want to be able to go have that $18 cocktail, if you want it?

Amanda Holden:

Absolutely. I think that's absolutely a driver and maybe even more than that, just being surrounded by people who are doing and who are ambitious and who are trying to squeeze every last drop out of life and it's not like people in Portland aren't doing that, people in Portland are absolutely doing that, I know some of the most wonderful and creative people there, but the pace of life is certainly slower. And so there's just a different cadence to being in New York City that I think helps and it's energizing and I feel very alive here. Man, nothing like walking through the streets of Manhattan and getting an umbrella right into the eye to really make you feel alive when you're here. Yeah, that's definitely a motivating factor.

Bobbi Rebell:

Looking back, are there things that you in retrospect would have done a little bit differently in terms of the preparation to basically up-size your lifestyle? I mean, it's just a more expensive place to live.

Amanda Holden:

I think that doing the saving is doing the work. Coming with some sort of financial cushion was imperative to me moving without taking on a whole bunch of financial anxiety, because I could see having a bunch of financial anxiety. If I was to do one thing differently, I probably would have worked on creating some more passive income streams before I got here, not only because having a passive income stream is really helpful, but also because the cost of building out something like, let's say, a video course or something like that is going to be much cheaper to create in Portland than it is going to be in New York.

“There’s just a different cadence to being in New York City ...  it’s energizing and I feel very alive here.”

Amanda’s Money Lesson:

Amanda Holden:

I think that the lesson here is that if you have a financial goal, it is worthy and you don't have to listen to what anybody else says your financial goal should be, but just make a picture of it in your head, make a bank account to match it, and then just hit that goal hard. I'm a firm believer in the value of really conceptualizing your goals and really thinking about it often, like, whatever, put it on your mood board, I don't use Pinterest, but put it on your Pinterest, whatever it is, and working towards that specific goal because it is so much more motivating than if you have just some random savings account that you're just putting money into with no particular goal in mind.

Bobbi Rebell:

Did you have deadline and a specific amount of money and work back from there?

Amanda Holden:

Well, really my deadline was earlier this year doing my taxes.

Bobbi Rebell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Amanda Holden:

And so I had an idea of how much I would owe in taxes. Last year was my first full year self employed doing my own business and so I had an idea of what I would owe in taxes. But you always kind of are like, "Well, until I actually do it, I could be way off. Am I going to owe $1000 or am I going to owe $40000? Where is it going to fall?" And so luckily once I did my taxes, I hired a CPA to do my taxes for the first year, I found out that I owed exactly what I expected and so therefore I had enough cushion where I was like, "Okay," I told myself this was my deadline. If I kept my cushion and didn't pay it all to self employed taxes, that I would move to New York City.

Amanda Holden:

And actually one of my good friends, I don't know if you know Emma Pattie, but Emma in Portland, she, on tax day, literally looked at me and she's like, "So are you moving to New York City?"

Bobbi Rebell:

Oh.

Amanda Holden:

I know, and I was like, "Oh, I guess I did say that, didn't I? Yeah, I guess I should go. I guess I should go now."

Bobbi Rebell:

We love accountability. Accountability is everything.

Amanda Holden:

I know. I was like, "Dang, I forgot I had said that.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes, tell people things. That's one of my favorite tips, is actually telling people because then you have more ownership and accountability.

“If you have a financial goal, it is worthy and you don’t have to listen to what anybody else says your financial goal should be”

Amanda’s Money Tip:

Amanda Holden:

So my everyday money tip, if you found $300 to spend at Target, then I encourage you to consider that you have money that you can also invest in a company like Target or invest in companies in general, invest in yourself and in your future,

Bobbi Rebell:

Right. So take whatever budget you were going to spend wherever you were going to go shopping and instead shop for the stock of that company. But make sure it's a good investment too. Don't just buy blind leave. We don't want to tell you to do that, of course.

Amanda Holden:

Right, right. And this is just an example.

Bobbi Rebell:

Right. But I love the analogy because when you rethink it and you approach something differently, wait, I was going to spend $300 on groceries for my very large family at Whole Foods, maybe I can spend less and invest the extra in Whole Foods. Not necessarily recommending that investment, but the idea is there.

“I’m a firm believer in the value of really conceptualizing your goals and really thinking about it often”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

I love that Amanda's friend Emma held her accountable. Accountability is a great tool to use. Without it, I know I would not have accomplished many things in life, so however that works for you, tell a friend about a goal and give them permission to check in with you on your progress, and yes, to hold you accountable.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Let's talk about risk tolerance. It's being tested for a lot of us right now. Amanda took a huge risk uprooting her life and moving into a more, let's say, financially challenging city. Given the economic chaos we are all now seeing with the impact of the coronavirus, was it a mistake? I say no. We make the best decisions for ourselves based on the information and the goals we have at that time.

Episode Links:

• Amanda's website - www.dumpsterdogblog.com

Follow Amanda!

• Instagram - @dumpster.doggy

• Twitter - @dumpsterdoggy

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.