Geometry of Wealth author Brian Portnoy invested time and money in an academic career, but made a career change that got a lot of backlash. But looking back that judgement only makes him more sure he made the right move. 

In Brian’s money story you will learn:

-How and why he made a major career change after investing years of time and money

-His candid thoughts about the field he left, and why it did not live up to his admittedly unrealistic expectations

-The financial and social reality of academic life

-How he was able to detach from external expectations of him by colleagues, family and friends

-The role long-term relationships and staying connected played in his ability to shift his career

-Why he had not been more informed before choosing his initial career

-How his life, and his happiness changed once he moved to the new and higher paying job

In Brian’s money lesson you will learn:

-If a situation doesn’t feel right, it’s better to make the change

-Trust your gut if it doesn’t feel right

-Have the courage of your convictions to move forward

In Brian’s everyday money tip you will learn:

-How giving money can create contentment

-Research shows that people who demonstrate generosity tend to be happier

-What Brian calls constructively selfish- when you tip more to someone that needs the money more than you. 

In My Take you will learn:

-My candid thoughts about not fully understanding the financial limitations of the career I chose

-Understanding not just the potential financial pay of an industry but also the culture and how that aligns with your values

Brian and Bobbi also talk about:

-Brian’s latest book “The Geometry of Wealth"

-What he means when he talks about a life of funded contentment

-How his book cuts through jargon

-The importance of defining what makes us happy before we start diving into investing

Episode Links

Learn ore about Brian at shapingwealth.com

Pick up a copy of Brian’s book: The Geometry of Wealth

Follow Brian!

Twitter @brianportnoy

LinkedIn Brian Portnoy

 

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Transcription

Brian Portnoy:
Most other people don't care. Your family cares, a few friends care, but for the most part, recognize that even if they say something negative or they put you down, they're not thinking about you before or after that conversation. They're just going on in their own life, and so you really don't owe them really any of your emotional energy.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. You know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a Financial Grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Financial Grownup friends. That was Geometry of Wealth author Brian Portnoy talking about a controversial career change he made, leaving an academic path that he had invested in both time and money, for a job in finance, and the judgment he faced by colleagues. He gets into some very candid comments that may surprise you to hear them actually said out loud. I'm curious to hear your reaction here, so please DM me after you listen and let me know what you think. On Instagram I'm @BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter @BobbiRebell.

Bobbi Rebell:
With that, let's get going. Here is Brian Portnoy. Hey Brian Portnoy, you are a financial grownup, welcome to the podcast.

Brian Portnoy:
Hi, nice to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
Congratulations on the success of your most recent book, The Geometry of Wealth.

Brian Portnoy:
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Bobbi Rebell:
And this follows by the way, your other book, Investor's Paradox. So, we're so happy to have you here, and you brought with you some great information, but before we talk more about your book and all that that offers our listeners, as you say, to live a life of funded contentment, and that has a lot to do with a big career decision that you made that was in part financially motivated, but there were other things going on as well. Tell us your story.

Brian Portnoy:
For the first roughly ten years of my career I was in academia. I earned a doctorate at the University of Chicago in political science, and I was having some success in terms of my writing, in terms of job offers from prestigious universities for tenure track positions, and on paper, everything was going really well. But I'll say that when I was honest with myself and with my fiancee at the time, I simply wasn't happy. It was a tough career.

Brian Portnoy:
Frankly from a monetary perspective, it was not lucrative. Being a graduate student, you're basically broke and then you go from being a graduate student to a professor when you're not broke per se, but you're really not making a lot of money. And the academic lifestyle involved moving around a lot, finding it hard to set roots in one place because you're looking for the right job at the right university.

Brian Portnoy:
The harder part was the expectations that others had of me that, hey, you're a smart guy and you've been working on and thinking about this for a long period of time, so to be able to go to those people, family, friends, my professors, my dissertation committee and say, "You know what, I want something different. I need something better for me," was not easy. I ended up just sort of putting a bunch of feelers out there.

Brian Portnoy:
One of them was to an old friend that I grew up with, who was working at a company called Morningstar, that some of your listeners might be familiar with. He was telling me about some of the investment research that they were doing, and even though my PhD was in political science, I was researching markets and economics as well and I found this job pretty intriguing, and I applied and I got it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Did you know the kind of salaries that ... first of all, the years of investment, both in lost income and in paying tuition and then making very little money, and did you know what the end game was in terms of earning potential when you made those decisions at 21?

Brian Portnoy:
I really didn't, and I guess it's a little embarrassing to say that I didn't. But I was following my passion at the time, and so I figured, "Hey, I'm friendly with and I see the lifestyle of some of these professors, and it looks great to me." So I didn't ask any hard questions about the monetary element of it. I was on a day-to-day basis, pretty broke, and that didn't help my mood. I just hadn't given much thought to the career element. Not just the money, but the lifestyle, which was sort of moving around a lot, and frankly, the people. I'm not going to be critical of those who go into academia, many of my good friends are now senior professors all over the world. But I really wasn't enjoying sort of the social network that I found myself in.

Bobbi Rebell:
What do you mean by that?

Brian Portnoy:
I mean when I was hanging out with folks in the business world, and broadly speaking, I was having a good time, enjoying socializing. When I was hanging out with those in academia, I just didn't like the people very much. Despite the level of brilliance that you would find with folks, it was relatively narrow-minded. I just wasn't entirely comfortable.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what were the changes? You get the job at Morningstar. What were the changes in your overall life, but specifically financially, in terms of your potential and the path that you were now on? How did that change?

Brian Portnoy:
It changed significantly. Well, first of all, at that point I was married to somebody who had a very good six-figure salary. My starting salary at Morningstar I think was $41,000. This was in the year 2000. I was not pleased with that, but that's what the job offered and I wanted the job. But it was certainly about double or more, actually triple what I had been living on in graduate school. So, from that point of view, it was a step up in lifestyle. Plus I was married to somebody who had a very good job.

Brian Portnoy:
The more important thing is that I got into sort of a normal work routine in mainstream society. The lifestyle I had in academia, you set your own schedule, which sounds great. You work on whatever you want, which sounds great. But it was unstructured and frankly untethered from most everything going on in the world. It's remarkable how ignorant others can be. Something I've really taken to heart is that most other people don't care.

Brian Portnoy:
Your family cares, a few friends care, but for the most part, recognize that even if they say something negative or they put you down, they're not thinking about you before or after that conversation. They're just going on in their own life, and so you really don't owe them really any of your emotional energy.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what is the takeaway for our listeners from that story?

Brian Portnoy:
If you're in a situation where it just doesn't feel right, even if you're getting good reviews, even if you're making decent money, you owe it to yourself to step back and say, "Do I owe myself more than this?" And then have the courage of your convictions to push forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's talk a little bit about your everyday money tip, because it ties into the philosophy of your book, The Geometry of Wealth in that you have something you're going to suggest to people that at the moment will not make them wealthier, but it will help them lead a richer life.

Brian Portnoy:
I think we all think in different ways about the relationship between money and happiness, and whether money buys happiness. And I'll say somewhat controversially that money in some cases can buy happiness. As part of that, deeper forms of contentment in our lives are in part driven by our deliberate decisions to express gratitude to others, and to be generous. There is now a lot of research in psychology and neuroscience that shows that people who express gratitude, and people who demonstrate generosity tend to be happier.

Brian Portnoy:
I call it being constructively selfish, because when you can tip a little bit more at the restaurant where the waiter or waitress was really helpful, if you can every time you stay at a hotel, don't leave $1 or $2, leave $5 for somebody who probably needs the money more than you do, and even in a non-monetary sense, you have an Uber ride where the driver was really fantastic, make it a point to write them a review. Or if there's somebody at work or in your personal life who's really done you a solid, send them a text or call them and say, "Hey, thanks for doing that," without the expectation of reciprocity.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love that. All right, let's talk a little bit quickly about your book The Geometry of Wealth. As I mentioned, it's your second book, and it's a lot about the emotional side of investing and how to grow and stay wealthy, and get past the jargon. I mean, you talk about the fact that a lot of people in the investing industry make it more complicated than it needs to be.

Brian Portnoy:
That's right. The industry is filled with jargon and sometimes that is used deliberately to confuse people so that they can buy products or services that might not be appropriate for them. I think the biggest mistake all of us, including me, off and on for decades now, the biggest mistake that we make when it comes to our money is that we equate money with investing, and we immediately dive into the weeds, into the markets and stocks and all that kind of stuff. Which can be interesting, but very distracting.

Brian Portnoy:
The Geometry of Wealth makes the point that what we need to do is start at the beginning. And starting at the beginning is to define what really makes us happy in life. And there's a number of different nuances to that, but we should be looking to underwrite a contented life. We shouldn't be looking to just get rich, meaning just have more money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where can people find out more about you and The Geometry of Wealth: How to Shape a Life of Money and Meaning?

Brian Portnoy:
My personal website is shapingwealth.com. There you can learn more about my background. There's a link to both The Geometry of Wealth and The Investor's Paradox. That's the best place to start, and also my Twitter handle is @brianportnoy, and I'm quite active on Twitter writing about day-to-day financial decision-making.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you, Brian.

Brian Portnoy:
You're welcome.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. I kind of have to take a deep breath after that, but I really admire Brian's fortitude in making a career change even after he had put so much into his academic career. Financial Grownup tip number one, when choosing a career path, find out the general cost to get there. Money and time. And the general payback. What can you expect? Sounds simple but most of us don't do it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't do it, guys. I was a communications major at the University of Pennsylvania. That's not a cheap education. And while I did have what was called a concentration in the business school there, I never really mapped out and thought through what journalism paid. And you know what guys? Business news pays better than general news, in general. But journalism, not the most lucrative career.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two, Brian talked about more than money in why he wanted to leave. Industries have cultures, and sometimes those cultures are part of what makes a career attractive or not. So take that into consideration. You spend a lot of time in your career and with colleagues, so it has to be a match.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thanks to all of you for listening. We hope you are finding that investing the time is delivering value to you, and if it is, tell a friend, tell your relatives, tell your colleagues. Also, tell us. DM us on the social channels and learn more about the show at bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
Show notes can be found at bobbirebell.com/podcast/brianportnoy. In every show, it's always the same pattern, just switch out brianportnoy for the guest name, and you can find the show notes and links to everything that we talk about. And thanks to Brian for bringing us all one step closer to being Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Andy Hill was so in love with his then future wife that he literally used his student loan money to buy her the ring she wanted- and oops did not tell her. He shares what happened when she did find out, and what he would do differently now that he is a financial grownup. Bonus: His tips on how to start a 529 account for your kids.

In Andy’s money story you will learn:

-The big mistake Andy made with his student loan

-The emotional backdrop to that mistake

-Why Andy did not talk to his girlfriend (now wife) about the decision

-His biggest regrets and what he would do differently

In Andy’s money lesson you will learn:

-The options Andy wish he had considered

-His advice on the best ways to communicate about money in a relationship

In Andy’s everyday money tip you will learn:

-HIs take on 529 plans and how he did his research

-The factors to consider in choosing a 529 plan

-Why Andy chose his plan for his children’s college savings

In my take you will learn:

-How to plan for expenses related to life events, like getting married!

-The cost of not just engagement rings, but weddings as well

-Recent changes to how 529 plans can be used

-Resources to get more information about 529 plans

Episode Links

Andy’s website:

Marriagekidsandmoney.com

Get Andy’s e-book : Young family wealth playbook

Listen to Andy’s podcast! 

Follow Andy!!

Twitter @andyhillmkm

Instagram: @AndyHill 827

Facebook @andyhillMKM

 

Learn more about 529’s: 

Link to the SEC website:

https://www.sec.gov/reportspubs/investor-publications/investorpubsintro529htm.html

Link to the FINRA website Saving for College

http://www.finra.org/investors/saving-college

College Savings Plans Network

http://www.collegesavings.org/

SAVING FOR COLLEGE

https://www.savingforcollege.com/intro-to-529s/what-is-a-529-plan

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Transcription

Andy Hill:
I took advantage of these student loans that I was using for my MBA program at the time, and just took a little bit extra from my student loans in order to pay for my wife's engagement ring. That's kind of how I started off my marriage with a little bit of debt, also with a little bit of love, as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup, and you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're gonna get there together. I'm gonna bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends, they say love is blind. That was certainly true for our guest today. Before we get to him, quick welcome to everyone, especially our new folks, we keep the episodes, just so you know, to around 15 minutes. You can fit it easily into your busy schedule while you're running errands and so on.

Bobbi Rebell:
A lot of regulars, though, say they enjoy listening to a few at a time, especially if they are commuting. The idea, do what works for you. You get to hear an inspiring, and hopefully entertaining money story, and then get some specific advice, money tips, things that you could do right away.

Bobbi Rebell:
Today's story is definitely entertaining, heartwarming, but you also might get that sinking feeling in your stomach, like, "Oh, no! He did not!" We've all been there, so into our loved ones that we just want to get them exactly what they want. Budgets, whatever, we find the money, even if we find it in our student loans? Yes, I'm talking to you, Andy.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's roll the interview.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, Andy Hill, you're a financial grownup, welcome to the podcast.

Andy Hill:
Thanks so much for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Congratulations on the success of your podcast, marriage, kids, and money. Nominated for the most important podcast awards that there are, the 2017 Plutus Awards. You were nominated for best new personal finance podcast, so congratulations!

Andy Hill:
Thank you so much, yeah. It was a great honor, and look forward to keep on bringing exciting material for all those people out there who are married with kids that love talking about money, or just want to give their families a better opportunity in the future.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I am a hopeless romantic, in addition to focusing on money, and you brought with you a money story that is both romantic and financial, having to do with your engagement. Tell us what happened.

Andy Hill:
Yeah, so back in, oh, this is maybe in my mid-twenties, I met an incredible girl named Nicole and fell in love with her. When you fall in love and you start to see the opportunity for marriage coming up, the first you think of, as a guy is, "Man, I got to get this ring thing going."

Andy Hill:
Me, not making that much money at the time, was probably making $35,000 a year, I said, "Well, I better start saving a little bit of money to make this thing happen." Unfortunately, since we were dating long distance from California to Michigan, my bank account was a little light, we'll say, but my love for her was continuing to grow. I know I had to take advantage of this moment and go for this engagement.

Andy Hill:
We looked at rings together at the store, and we found the ring that she liked, with the type of the style, I found out it was about $5,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ouch!

Andy Hill:
Yeah. That was about $4,500 more than I had.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Andy Hill:
I decided to go for it anyway because I was in love, and I wanted to move this thing forward. The way that I went about it was I took advantage of these student loans that I was using for my MBA program at the time, and just took a little bit extra from my student loans in order to pay for my wife's engagement ring. That's kind of how I started off my marriage with a little bit of debt, also with a little bit of love, as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness. That is such a big no-no though. Let me just ask you, taking it back a little, did it occur to you to either wait and save up more, or maybe downsize the ring a little bit, or find ... I don't know if that was maybe the best interest rate you could get on student loans versus taking out a different kind of loan. It's certainly better than a credit card, we know that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Any other considerations at the time?

Andy Hill:
Oh yeah, Bobbi. All these things I could've done better. Could've gotten a better opportunity to get a lower interest rate than ... I think it was 6.8% that I was paying for my student loans. I could've maybe spoken to my wife ... my future wife about it a little bit about the- [inaudible 00:04:43][crosstalk 00:04:43]

Bobbi Rebell:
So, she didn't know about this, she did not know that you went into debt to get her ring.

Andy Hill:
Nope.

Bobbi Rebell:
What would she have said if she knew?

Andy Hill:
I believe that she would've said, "That's not a good idea. We can either wait, or we can look at something that's a little bit more feasible for your actual budget."

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, but you did not talk to her, so that's also a lesson. Just to point out. That's one of the things you talk about a lot on your podcast, is the communication aspect.

Andy Hill:
Absolutely. I preach about it all day long, but did I do it back in my mid-twenties? No. I did not. Definitely having communication with your spouse, or your future spouse is an incredible way to start the marriage, and I definitely did not do that.

Bobbi Rebell:
If you can get into the mind of 27-year-old Andy, what were you thinking at the time?

Andy Hill:
What I was thinking was, "I'm in love, and I want to make this thing happen as soon as possible. She's shown me the type of ring that she wants, and I want to make her happy." Unfortunately, I didn't think about any of the other consequences that went along with that: the interest rate, not speaking to my future wife about something that's super important. That could've been a really pivotal moment for us, actually, to speak about something that important, and I passed it up, for sure.

Bobbi Rebell:
When did she find out? Assuming it's not now, listening to this podcast? When did she find out when you had done that?

Andy Hill:
She found out about the debt that I had, as well as the ring situation a little after we got married when-

Bobbi Rebell:
Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. The debt you had in addition to the ring. What was the other debt you had? You had $4,500 from the ring, and then what else?

Andy Hill:
It was all these student loans that I had, it was about $40,000 of student loans total, as well as a home equity line of credit, which probably equated to another $10,000, so about $50,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, go on.

Andy Hill:
Yeah, yeah, so we got married, and then with that comes the merging of the finances, right? As we were merging finances we started to have the conversations then about what my debt situation was, and what her debt situation was, and then it became our problem, and something that we worked on together, but she didn't realize until then, "Oh, so I'm now paying off the ring that you bought for me."

Bobbi Rebell:
"I'm paying off my own engagement ring. Thank you very much."

Andy Hill:
How romantic, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
That's so romantic. No. No, no, no, no. Quickly tell us how did it resolve? How did you pay all that off?

Andy Hill:
Well, yeah, so we got together and we made a plan to pay it off. We started to talk about potentially having kids in the future, and we said, "Hey, well, let's work together and pay this off." Combined we were making a little bit over six figures in a salary. We said, "All right, let's live on half, and pay this off as fast as possible," and we were able to clobber it in about 12 months.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson for our listeners from that now that you're a wise, wise old man in your thirties?

Andy Hill:
Yeah, I would say communication as early as possible in your relationship, especially when it comes to money is so important. The opportunity that I did not take advantage of was to speak to my future wife about, "Hey, this ring that you want, I love it, you love it, it would make you feel great, but I just don't have the money right now in order to make this happen. We can either delay our marriage in order to get the ring, or we can look at something that's a little bit more feasible."

Andy Hill:
That would've been a very good financial grownup conversation to have with her at that point in our marriage, for sure. Communication and just working on things as a married couple before you're even married shows the true partnership before you get into it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love the money tip that you're going to share, because we kind of moved things forward now to the mindset of being parents, which you now are. You have two children, ages six and four. That means time to think about college and getting ready. It's never too early. Tell us your money tip.

Andy Hill:
Absolutely. When we got married we decided to have children, and one of the things as we started to get our financial grownup selves together was, "Hey, if we're gonna be helping our kids get through college we got to start saving now."

Andy Hill:
We started researching 529 programs, and the cool thing about 529 programs is that you don't have to take advantage of the one that's specifically in your state. There are other programs that maybe have lower fees to consider. We did a broad research of all the programs that were available to us in the U.S.

Andy Hill:
We ended up going with our state, because it had good fees, or lower fees, through TIAA-CREF, and actually, there was a great state income tax break, as well, that helps us save a little bit of money each year as we donate into ... as we contribute into our kids' college fund.

Andy Hill:
I guess my tip would be, take a look at all the opportunities that you have to save for your kids through a 529 program, start as early as possible, but definitely take a look at the fees that are associated with it, because some of the programs might have higher fees, and they might not even be in your state.

Andy Hill:
Taking a look at that, as well as getting an understanding of the tax advantages of utilizing a 529 with your state. It's a great way to save, and it's a great way to prepare for the future college costs that we're all looking for as parents.

Bobbi Rebell:
Definitely, and I also want to just ask you quickly before we wrap up about your E-book.

Andy Hill:
Yes, have a E-book on my site called The Young Family Wealth Playbook. It is an amalgamation of all these interviews that I've done on my podcast from the 50+ self-made millionaires, financial independent rock stars, and personal finance experts, and I've taken all that information that will help individuals who are reading it to look at what they can do, all the way from the start of marriage, all the way to being parents and helping your family to build wealth.

Andy Hill:
It's seven steps that I've taken from those conversations, and it'll walk people through how they can grow wealth and create a great future for their family.

Bobbi Rebell:
So cool. Tell us where people can find you, social handles, all that good stuff.

Andy Hill:
Excellent, yeah, so I'm at marriagekidsandmoney.com. On that site you'll be able to check out the podcast, The Young Family Wealth Playbook, as well as my blog. I'm also very busy on Twitter: @andyhillmkm. I'd love to have some conversations, and thanks for checking it out.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much, Andy.

Andy Hill:
Excellent. Thanks so much, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, Andy. We can't help but be charmed by you, even though I can't believe you did that. So glad you clearly are a financial grownup now, and even more happy that your wife is still there with you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial grownup tip number one: remember, the ring is just the beginning of the cost of your trip down the aisle, so if you blow your budget on that, oh my goodness. According The Knot, Americans spend an average of $6,351 on just the wedding ring.

Bobbi Rebell:
In Andy's case, given that he got married a few years ago, Andy was relatively in line at the $5,000 mark. If you want to stretch for that, that's fine, but you got to keep in mind what's coming next. The wedding. The average cost of a wedding, according to The Knot, again, is over $33,000, and, of course, in New York City, couples spend even more, almost $77,000, so that's a choice. But, think about it, if you are going to spend that kind of cash, make those decisions as a couple. Andy admits he messed up by not talking to his wife.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial grownup tip number two: 529s are a great resource for parents, and if you are sending kids to private school, you now can use them for that, as well, but there are a lot of rules, and you need to play by those rules, or you're gonna get stuck. You're gonna pay higher fees than needed, as Andy warned, you also may have penalties if you try to get the money in a non-qualified way.

Bobbi Rebell:
I will leave a link to the sec.gov website that has a very easy and straightforward explainer article. Read it. I'm gonna leave some other helpful links, as well. You need to do your homework on this, because you may not be able to get to the money in the way you want, when you want, without the penalties, so just do it with your eyes open.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thanks to everyone for joining us. If you like the promo videos that you are seeing on social media you can win one. Just share them in social media when you see them. I'll be making one for a lucky winner in July, basically based on whoever shares the most.

Bobbi Rebell:
To learn more about the show go to bobbirebell.com/financialgrownuppodcast, and, of course, stay in touch by following me on Twitter: @bobbirebell, on Instagram: @bobbirebell1.

Bobbi Rebell:
Andy, you truly became a financial grownup by learning your lesson. Glad it all worked out for you and the wife, and now your children. Thank you for helping us all get once step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart, and is a BRK Media production.

The Opposite of Spoiled author Ron Lieber dishes on the underground network he tapped into as a teen to ace the financial aid game- and gives a sneak peak into his next book “What to Pay for College".Plus Ron’s secret to getting hot tickets at below market prices- Including the Cubs.

In Ron’s money story you will learn:

-How Ron got the inside track on how to maximize financial aid for college

-How much Ron took out in loans for school and how long it took to pay it back

-Ron’s theory on how grownup’s can help cut through the information overload and  get to the important information

-Insight into how Ron researches his columns for the NYTimes

-The significance of Ron’s mom taking him to meet with "the guy”

In Ron’s money lesson you will learn:

-Ron’s advice on how to learn about the options to pay for college now

-The one thing you should not do that could hurt your ability to get the maximum financial aid

-Why financial aid applications have become so complicated over time

-Specific resources from Ron to learn more about how to pay for college, before his book comes out

In Ron’s money tip you will learn:

-About his love of experiences like concerts and baseball games

-How he is able to get discount tickets to events

-The specific strategy, including the timeline, that Ron uses to get the best prices on tickets

-The best ticket score Ron ever got, and why he was so excited about the show!

In My Take you will learn:

-How I went on a “Mentor Tour” a few years ago, before launching the Financial Grownup brand

-Why I agree with Ron, that consulting people who know more about something that you do, can be the best way to get an edge on a new venture, whether it is college, or launching a business. 

-The value add of an in-person conversation compared to doing internet research

-The importance of making children aware of the costs of higher education, whether or not they pay for part or all of it. 

EPISODE LINKS

Ron Lieber’s website: http://ronlieber.com

Ron’s NY Times Columns: NYTimes.com/Lieber

Get Ron’s book The Opposite of Spoiled

Learn more about Ron’s upcoming book “What to pay for college”

Resources recommended by Ron Lieber

Paying for College without going Broke by Kal Cheney

SavingforCollege.com

Follow Ron!!

Twitter @RonLieber

Instagram @ronlieber

Facebook.com/RonLieberAuthor

 

 StubHub is where Ron goes to get last minute discount tickets!

---

Transcription

Ron Lieber:
Somebody slipped us a phone number for a guy, the guy to see in the Chicago land area if you did not have enough money for college. Turns out he was the assistant director of financial aid at Northwestern University and he had this side hustle going on where every day at 5:00 p.m. after his colleagues had gone home for the night he would sort of usher you in at the side door of the financial aid office at Northwestern. You'd give him 50 bucks in cash and he would tell you all of the secrets of the financial aid system.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to financial grown up with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to be a Financial Grownup and you know what being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money but it's OK. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson and then my take on how you can make it your own. We've got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends. So Ron Lieber, famous, very famous New York Time's money columnist, super nice guy, also the author of the upcoming book What to Pay for College, the best seller The Opposite of Spoiled. He knew a guy. As he describes it it was basically an underground financial aid information network. This really happened. Before we get to Ron's unbelievable story, can't believe this really happened, I do want to welcome new listeners. And of course welcome back those who are returning. The show's been growing and I'm so happy you guys are spreading the word. So thank you in advance for any more spreading the word that you do. Please tell friends about Financial Grownup if you're enjoying it. I'm also happy that you guys are enjoying the video promos that we do for each episode. A reminder if you want one for you or your business we are having a little competition. Whenever you see the video in social media, share it. Whoever shares it the most between now and July 1st I will make a customized video just for you. So a little experimental competition we're having here.

Bobbi Rebell:
And if you have a great money story, you want to be on the show, we want to hear from you. E-mail us at info at financialgrownup.com, tell us what your money story would be and what your everyday money tip would be and maybe you'll be selected to be featured on the program. We have our first listener episode coming up soon. Now to Ron Lieber. My first exposure to his writing came when I read his bestselling book The Opposite of Spoiled, Raising Kids Who Are Grounded, Generous and Smart About Money. And yes I have used his strategies in my own home. I am also now an avid fan of his New York Times column, Your Money. In it Ron sheds light on issues that touch so many of us and with real solid reporting behind it. So that's something as a journalist I really value and appreciate. He's really good at what he does and as a parent I can't wait to read his upcoming book What to Pay for College. An entirely new guide to the biggest financial decision your family will ever make. But first you get to hear this story about a guy. Here is Ron lever.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey Ron Lieber, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Ron Lieber:
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're so excited to have you. You are the author of one of my favorite books, The Opposite of Spoiled which has set the standard for so many families including my own. We have our three save/spend/give jars in our house for my 10 year old. So thank you for that. And I know you have a new project.

Ron Lieber:
Yes I'm working on a book right now called What To Pay For College which is all about when if ever it is worth paying more than whatever your flagship state university costs for a private college or an out of state public university or something else entirely.

Bobbi Rebell:
Something we all need to be thinking about. What I want to hear for your money story though is about your experience when you were younger visiting the financial aid consultant with your mom when you were a senior in high school. Tell us what happened.

Ron Lieber:
So there I was. 1988. Chicago, Illinois. Already a scholarship kid at the K to 12 private school I attended back then. We didn't know very much about financial aid, somebody slipped us a phone number for a guy, the guy to see it in the Chicago land area if you did not have enough money for college. Turns out he was the assistant director of financial aid at Northwestern University and he had this side hustle going on where every day at 5:00 p.m. after his colleagues had gone home for the night he would sort of usher you in at the side door of the financial aid office at Northwestern. You'd give him 50 bucks in cash and he would tell you all of the secrets of the financial aid system.

Bobbi Rebell:
No.

Ron Lieber:
[crosstalk 00:04:26] God forsaken FAFSA form. Yeah, he knew exactly what he was talking about. I got into college at Amherst early decision, got a fantastic financial aid package and graduated with under $10,000 in student loan debt which wasn't all that much at the time and got it paid off in 10 years.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, but we got to go back Ron. So what are some of the secrets that he told you?

Ron Lieber:
It was a reminder that there is always some financial grownup out there in the world who has the information that you seek and quite often if you just had the guts to pick up the phone or show up in their office maybe with a little bit of cash on the barrel that person will tell you the secrets of whatever code you're trying to crack, whatever system you're trying to beat. There is a grownup out there somewhere who can help you. And you know every time I go out and write a column for The Times I'm looking for that one financial grownup who has the answer and they're always out there somewhere.

Ron Lieber:
But the second thing and maybe the most important thing here came from the fact that my mother took me there in the first place. She could have left me at home. She might have felt anxiety about the situation we were in or ashamed that we were going to have to go hat in hand to all these schools you know asking for money. But she felt like I at the age of 17 ought to have a front row seat for that process because it was going to be my education and my debt. And I tried to remember that when I'm tempted to shield my older daughter who's now 12 from whatever financial dilemma that my family is facing. She's old enough to hear a fair bit of this and I want her to understand.

Bobbi Rebell:
Have you ever circled back to your mom and asked her why she took you in and what was going on in her mind at that time?

Ron Lieber:
You know I did a couple of years ago as I started thinking about this guy again. I actually tracked him down on the plains of Colorado where he's gone to retire from financial aid. And he remembered me and we chatted about it and he said the thing that always surprised him was when the parents came without the kid. So you know he gave my mom great credit. And you know my mom to her credit to this day you know doesn't shield me from you know any financial dilemma she's facing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did she find this guy?

Ron Lieber:
The people at my private high school in Chicago just did not know a ton about financial aid and how it worked. But they said there's this guy. And you know it was literally a slip of paper with the guy's phone number on it, I'm not even sure there was a name and you know I just dialed the suburban Chicago area code and he picks up and he said yeah you know come to this address next Tuesday and bring me my money and we'll talk. And it was like a financial aid underground.

Bobbi Rebell:
For our listeners now in 2018, what is the lesson from that? What's the takeaway?

Ron Lieber:
I think you always have to turn over every rock and talk to every person who might have information that can help you. Don't be ashamed of the fact that you don't understand. Every single last one of these financial systems that we encounter in our daily life is complex. Often they are complex by design. Sometimes they're complex by accident right. In the case of the financial aid industry loan systems, you know layers of people over the decades have layered you know different levels of complexity onto this. All in the hope that they can help some or another student who might be disadvantaged by the last layer that was laid on right. What we end up with is you know eight student loan programs and nine different income driven repayment plans and you know two different ways the financial aid is calculated at most colleges and it's really confusing so ask for help, you know express your ignorance and demand information. Right. I mean if you're approaching a system that has a sticker price of over $300,000 now at the most expensive selective colleges. You have a right to demand more information and to get some answers so don't be sheepish about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Are there specific resources that you would recommend?

Ron Lieber:
Well here's the problem right and the reason I'm working on What to Pay for College is that I don't actually believe that the perfect resource exists. But if you're looking for like nuts and bolts of financial aid I really like Cal Cheney's book Paying for College Without Going Broke. It's about the best book that I've seen about the financial aid system. And if you're thinking about saving for college and how to do that the book that the folks at savingforcollege.com published is quite good if you want to know about the ins and outs of 529 plans and all of the various complexities there and there are a fair number.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right well this is why we need your book. I'm going to hear more about your book in a second but I want to just get to your money tip because we talked before we started recording and you apparently have a concert ticket problem. And I think a lot of people can relate to this, especially coming into the summer, it's time we all like to go see our favorite artist. Tell us Ron.

Ron Lieber:
I'm constantly wrestling with you know how much should I spend for the possibility of you know close up literally experience that's going to make me happy. I do often snipe my way through StubHub. So instead of buying tickets you know weeks or even months ahead of time if it's something where I'm pretty sure there's still going to be a lot of tickets at the end I will wait and I will wait and I will wait until sometimes less than an hour before showtime or before play ball. You know and buy my tickets as I watch the prices fall in ten minute increments, you know every five minutes. You know that was how I saw Phish on New Year's Eve a couple of years ago for not very much at all. Of course there's always some risk involved that all the tickets will disappear. But you can watch and see. You know are there dozens left, hundreds or thousands. Right. Are the tickets disappearing quickly or not. You know you can keep track, make a little spreadsheet for yourself as you watch as the date or the hour approaches. You know but what I often see with concerts is that you know the price will start falling relatively quickly you know within a couple hours of showtime. You know then you just grab the point at which you feel comfortable paying the price. And at that point you can generally download the tickets instantly.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what's been your best score?

Ron Lieber:
I think the best score was probably those Phish tickets on New Year's Eve. Although whenever the Cubs come to town to play the Mets as they are doing in a week or so here in New York City I'll often use this method as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Alright. So you are actually on a break from your full time job at the New York Times because you're working on your new project. Tell us more about that.

Ron Lieber:
Sure. So the book is called What To Pay For College, it will be out sometime in 2020. No pre-orders yet. You know for anybody who's interested in kind of where I'm heading with it you know you can find hints of it in the columns that I've written for The Times about higher education. You know I read a handful each year and my archive is at nytimes.com/lieber and the book questions I'm asking are born of really a half decade of observation where without anyone really noticing the rack rate at the most expensive private schools top $300,000 for four years, flagship state universities now regularly cost $100,000 dollars or more for four years. You've got a $200,000 difference between those two things. That's per child after taxes. Almost nobody can save that much money. This is insane.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. It is insane.

Ron Lieber:
Yeah so the question then becomes what if anything are you actually getting for that $200? And if you go asking those questions at the more expensive colleges they will look at you cross-eyed and if you ask for data to prove that the extra $200,000 is worth it and there are a lot of different ways to potentially define worth, which I'm exploring in my reporting, if you just ask that right, well why do you think it's worth it and show me some numbers right. Here we are in the era of big data where you can get a ton of information about your social plan or about your car or about the house you want to buy, you can just round in data on all that stuff. There is almost no data about what happens to you when you're at college and what happens to you afterwards. And it is my suspicion that the colleges actually like it that way because in the absence of data we make decisions on the basis of snobbery. Private is better than public.

Bobbi Rebell:
So true.

Ron Lieber:
Right, you know ivy covered walls are better than you know concrete 1970s Britos architecture. Right. So I'm going down all these rows and asking all of the impertinent questions and I'm going to have a lot to say about it very soon.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right well I'm hoping you can hook me up with a preview sometime soon because I will need to read that. I've got kids in college so I am very excited about this new project. Where can people find you and learn more about what you're writing in the meantime?

Ron Lieber:
Sure. Www.ronlieber.com, there's a big fat contact button for anybody who has a story to share about how they and their family decided what they should pay for college.

Bobbi Rebell:
And on social media?

Ron Lieber:
@RonLieber all over the place, you know on Twitter, on Instagram and the Facebook community that I run on parenting and money is at Facebook.com, Ron Lieber author.

Bobbi Rebell:
Awesome, thank you so much Ron. This has been amazing.

Ron Lieber:
It was a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:
So Ron's sincerity is contagious and his book is definitely needed. As he mentioned he wants to hear from all of you about your experiences. So share yours with him, as he said all the info is at his Web site, ronlieber.com. Here's my take on what Ron shared with us. Financial grownup tip number one. As Ron said, there is a grownup there who can help you. Don't be afraid to reach out to older and/or more experienced people for help. Yes, the internet does have a lot of information but not always context. Sometimes just getting the scoop from a person, someone, who's got the dirt on whatever you need to know can be really meaningful, they can cut through a lot of the junk out there. Ask someone, call someone you know, ask someone who they would recommend that you talk to, set a meeting.

Bobbi Rebell:
When I was figuring out what I wanted to do after years of being a television anchor I went on what I jokingly called a mentor tour, setting up face to face meetings with anyone I admired who would generously give me their time and asking them who else I should talk to. And trust me mo internet research can take the place of the kind of information download that you can get from sitting face to face with somebody and asking them what they think, what their experience has been and what they think you should do. People are generous so take advantage of that. That will be good.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Financial grownup tip number two. Ron points out the significance of the fact that his mom took him with her to meet the guy. Ron learned that financial aid wasn't going to just appear. He knew that he was a stakeholder in the process and he appreciated the money that much more. We all want to shield our kids from the reality of our financial fragility but if we can get past our egos we do them a service by keeping them in the loop and making them aware of what it really takes to pay for college.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thanks to all of you for spending part of your day with us. We make these podcasts relatively short to fit into your busy schedule but also so you can listen to a few in a row when it makes sense like during your commute, if you're watching your kids do an activity or just chilling out and you want to listen to a little bit more. You can listen to three or four at a time, make 45 minutes, listen to four, it could be an hour. Whatever works for you. The goal is to make it fit in with what you're doing and fit your life. If you enjoy the show please help us grow. We need you. Tell a friend, write a review on Apple Podcasts and follow us on social media. I am @BobbiRebell on Twitter, BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on Facebook. Ron's new book can't come soon enough but I'm glad he gave us a sneak peek. And by the way also a great strategy for discount tickets so thanks Ron for getting us all one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Leanna Haakons trusted a friend to sell her car so she could use the proceeds for tuition. But when she handed over the keys, he hit the road leaving her without the cash to pay for school. 

In Leanna’s money story you will learn:

-How Leanna planned to finance her college

-The two mistakes she made that destroyed those plans

-How she paid for college even though she did not recover the money she lost

-The role her dad played in the story

-The psychological impact of a financial betrayal on Leanna

-What happened years later when she finally confronted the person who stole her money

In Leanna’s money lesson you will learn:

-Be aware of the ways people can take advantage of you and your money

-Her warning about cybersecurity, identity theft and financial infidelity in relationships

-How to research a broker or financial advisor

-The importance of a paper trail

In Leanna’s Money tip you will learn:

-The link between healthy eating and building wealth

-Leanna’s healthy body healthy wallet theory

-Her top 12 dirtiest produce items

-When to buy organic even if it costs more

-Cooking techniques that will kill pesticides

-Apps she recommends to eat healthier

In my take you will learn:

-Specific ways to create a paper trail so you don't get caught in a bind like Leanna

-How to buy food based on the season

Episode links:

Get Leanna Haakons book Young Fun and Financially Free!!

 

Follow Leanna!

Twitter @Leannablackhawk

Instagram @leanna_hawk

website youngfunfree.com

website blackhawkfinancial.ca

 

Do your homework on brokers

FINRA/brokercheck

Places to get contracts

Legal Zoom

Nolo

Rocket Lawyer

 

Leanna recommended  the Flipp app for finding organic produce on sale

 

seasonal fruit guide from The Balance https://www.thebalance.com/the-cheapest-fruits-and-vegetables-month-by-month-1388345

 

To apply to be a guest on the show for our new once a month listener episode email us your

-money story

-money lesson

-everyday money tip

 

to info@financialgrownup.com

And we’ll be in touch if you are chosen!!

---

Transcription

Leanna Haakons:
It hurt. It hurt from the money side of it, and I was ashamed. I was embarrassed. I had so many sleepless nights, and I was embarrassed that someone that I had trusted so much, that was a friend, that I was so close to had done this to me.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. But, you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But, it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. Before we get to today's guest, I am really excited about an announcement that we are going to be making at the end of the podcast about something new that we're going to be doing here at Financial Grownup. I'm going to fill you in after Leanna Haakons' story. Stay tuned until the end. But let's talk about Leanna. She is the author of Young, Fun, and Financially Free, and a financial marketing expert. You see her all over the media. She had a great plan to buy a car, and then sell it in time to use the proceeds for tuition, but she learned a terrible lesson when a trusted friend betrayed her. Here is Leanna Haakons. Leanna Haakons, you're a financial grownup, welcome to the podcast.

Leanna Haakons:
Thank you so much for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am so excited to have you, first of all I love your book Young, Fun and Financially Free. You're also not just an author, you are also a financial marketing expert. You have a lot of wisdom to share with us.

Leanna Haakons:
Thank you, I appreciate that.

Bobbi Rebell:
Part of that wisdom has to do with a story, the car, your first year of college, and thinking things were going to go one way, and then there was a surprise and not so pleasant ending. Tell us what happened.

Leanna Haakons:
Yeah. I call this story my school of hard knocks story. My first year of college was a lot of learning about finance, and doing that whole traditional [inaudible 00:02:14] going through school. But it was also a school and year of hard knocks in the financial, the personal financial, world. I had gone to my first year of college in Toronto, and come back to the West coast, to Vancouver, where I grew up. I needed a car for the summer. I was working at a gym, and I needed to open up the gym at 5:30 in the morning. That was before public transit was running. I needed a car to get to the gym really early in the morning. I had been working four different jobs throughout the school year to be able to save up money so I could get my first car, which was this little blue convertible with white leather interior, it was so cute, it was awesome. I was just so excited to get this car.

Bobbi Rebell:
But you had a plan for the car.

Leanna Haakons:
Yes, I had this whole plan. I worked super hard during the school year, I saved up the money, and I had this friend of mine that I'd known throughout high school for years, and he's sort of a brother to me. He had said "Well, if you save up the money, I'll buy the car for you in cash, and then you can use it throughout the summer while you're working, and at the end of the summer I'll sell the car for you, because I have this car dealership, and get the money back for you and give it to you, so you can use the money to pay for your school when you go back to Toronto in September, when you go back to school again." I said "That sounds like a great plan, because I need the money for school expenses." I thought it would all work out great. Sounded perfect.

Bobbi Rebell:
You were basically renting the car.

Leanna Haakons:
Yeah, well, effectively that was the plan was supposed to be. All did not go according to plan. I ended up giving him the keys at the end of the summer, after I'd used the car. I thought it was the perfect plan. It didn't end up working out that way. This led to a series of events where I had to learn-

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait, wait, what happened? What happened? You handed back the key and he did not hand you the money, it's what I'm assuming.

Leanna Haakons:
Yeah. I gave him the keys back to the car and he vanished. I never heard from him again. After-

Bobbi Rebell:
The car vanished too?

Leanna Haakons:
Of course, yeah. It had been about six or sevens weeks, and tuition was due, expenses were due, of course I was renting the apartment, the bills were coming in, I was freaking out. I ended up having to get a line of credit from the bank. I had to ask my dad to cosign for it. Some hard lessons were learned there. My dad was a big believer in not immediately bailing me out, which he could've done, but he wanted me to learn the hard lesson that you don't just give up your assets to people without having a paper trail. I had thought this person was a trusted friend of mine. I'd known him for many years. I thought he was someone that I could trust. You know what? You just don't give your keys and your assets to someone without having a paper trail.

Bobbi Rebell:
Do the paperwork. Do you know even now, years later, whatever happened to him?

Leanna Haakons:
Well, this is another story.

Bobbi Rebell:
Was there a backstory? Did he owe people a lot of money? Was he in trouble? Did he have some reason even if we don't like it? At least something happened why he did this to you?

Leanna Haakons:
Along the way, probably about eight months after the fact, he did end up giving me some excuses, lies of excuses, very, very horrible excuses thus to why. He didn't give me the money, and apparently things had happened in his family, [inaudible 00:05:25] people had passed away that were in his life, family members and whatnot, which I found out years later they were still alive. It was a total con. This person knew immediately what they were doing. I ended up finding out from the insurance company that the car was transferred to someone else the week that I had given him the keys to the car, gifted to someone else with the value of zero dollars with the same last name as him. He knew what he was doing right off [crosstalk 00:05:47]-

Bobbi Rebell:
It was deliberate.

Leanna Haakons:
It was deliberate, 100%. I found that out eventually, and I did run into him actually about three years ago or so, maybe about 10 years later. That was a showdown. I'll tell you that much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Leanna Haakons:
I won't give you the details, but it wasn't pretty.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us a little detail, now that you said that.

Leanna Haakons:
It didn't get physical, I'm not that kind of girl, but it was ugly that's for sure. But, I never got any of the money back. But it was definitely a ... it was a hard lesson for sure. I think $10,000 was around the amount that it was. When you're that young, it takes a lot of time, and a lot of hard work to save up that kind of money. It hurt, it hurt from the money side of it. I was ashamed. I was embarrassed. I had so many sleepless nights. I was embarrassed that someone that I had trusted so much, that was a friend, that I was so close to had done this to me. Especially when I found out months after the fact that the car had been signed over to someone else. I knew it was deliberate.

Bobbi Rebell:
Tell me, what is the lesson for our listeners?

Leanna Haakons:
There are so many ways that people can be taken advantage of, or at risk with your money, whether it's with your investment dealings, whether it's cybersecurity, identify theft, financial infidelity in relationships. There are so many ways that people need to be careful with their financial dealings. That can be within families and friendships as well as I experienced, how that all gets intertwined. There's lots of different things that you can do to protect yourself. I mentioned some of those things in my book, Young, Fun and Financially Free.

Leanna Haakons:
There's also things like FINRA's BrokerCheck. Whenever you're going to go into a new investment dealing, you're looking to working with a new financial advisor, you should go on to something called BrokerCheck, which is a FINRA program, and you can look to see whether that investment advisor has had any marks on their record, and see if there's anything on there that you should be aware of. Because you need to be your own best advocate when it comes to your financial dealings. The moral of my financial grownup story is don't ever give away your assets to anyone without having a paper trail, and that you really need to keep really good records of your own transfers, payments and passwords. You have to be your own best advocate when it comes to your financial dealings.

Bobbi Rebell:
On a lighter note, you brought a great money tip. But also an important thing that people do spend a lot of money on, and sometimes it's not necessary, you call it I think the dirty dozen?

Leanna Haakons:
Yeah. I'm a really big advocate as well that sound money decisions start with putting healthy food into your body, and making, I call it a healthy body healthy wallet decision. Spending consciously and something that they call in the healthy food world, the organic world, is their dirty dozen. There's sort of the top 12 dirtiest produce items that you purchase. If you want to be buying organic, and buying healthy food, and putting healthy food into your body, there are sort of the top 12 things that are most important to buy organic. If something like that is a priority to you, then you should be spending consciously on those items. A great way to do that is to download an app like one called Flipp, F-L-I-P-P.

Leanna Haakons:
You can download an app like Flipp and you can browse different grocery stores, supermarkets in your area and see what's on sale. Buy consciously. Make buying healthy organic food a priority, but do it smartly. Shop at a couple different stores in your area, do your research, and look at what's on sale at Whole Foods, Trader Joe's or the stores in your area. Find the things that are on sale, and beware of the things like the dirty dozen fruits and vegetable that should be bought organic.

Bobbi Rebell:
What are those? Give us some examples of them.

Leanna Haakons:
Things like apples, carrots, things that you buy that you eat peel of mostly, those are the ones that have the pesticides, they're all covered in pesticides, those things you want to buy organic. Apples are always at the top of the list. Things like bananas that you take the peel off of, you don't really have to worry about as much, but you'll also notice that bananas in the stores as well, those are pretty cheap to buy organic, so you don't really have to worry about those as much. Anything that you are also cooking that you boil or something like that as well, you don't have to worry about as much because the boiling effect usually kills a lot of the pesticides. But, you can find that list anywhere, if you just google the dirty dozen, you'll be able to find that list anywhere. Then an app like Flipp can help you find organic produce, or organic meats and natural food items as well. Finding an app like that is really helpful to be able to get organic food on sale.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right, let's talk quickly about your book, Young, Fun, and Financially Free. Thank you so much by the way, you sent me not one, but two copies, because we're going to give one away to a listener. You have to tag this episode in a post on Twitter and tag both me, I'm on Twitter @bobbirebell, and what's your Twitter handle?

Leanna Haakons:
Mine is @leannablackhawk.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Tag us both and we will pick someone within a week of the episode dropping, and we will send one of you a copy of her book. Tell me more about the book.

Leanna Haakons:
Yeah. The book is a really easy read. It takes about five hours to get through, so you can do it all on a weekend. It's a nice cover-to-cover read, sort of the money 101 on anything from spending, saving, investing, insurance, just sort of an adult [inaudible 00:11:18] book 101.

Bobbi Rebell:
We need books like that.

Leanna Haakons:
Yeah. You know what? When I was young and I got my first job in finance was in the stock market doing investor relations when I was 18. I was really into this stuff naturally. I started trading in individual stocks when I was 18.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Leanna Haakons:
Yeah, so I really love this stuff. But you know what? Even for me, a lot of the books that I picked up, I wanted to be reading them, but even I wasn't getting through them cover to cover. I wanted to write something that people, that even if they weren't interested in this stuff naturally could read it cover to cover, get a few [inaudible 00:11:53] out of it, there's some funny money quotes in it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes, there's some very fun quotes in [crosstalk 00:11:58].

Leanna Haakons:
Yeah, so I just wanted it to be light, and something that people could actually enjoy reading whether they're interested in this stuff or not, they can enjoy it, and it doesn't have to be something that they struggle to read, whether their parents or their friends are kind of forcing them, or asking them to read it or not. It's actually something enjoyable read.

Bobbi Rebell:
I enjoyed it, and I enjoy this conversation with you. Thank you for being my guest. Where can people follow you on social media?

Leanna Haakons:
I am on Twitter, @leannablackhawk, or Instagram, leanna_hawk, they can also find me on my website youngfunfree.com or at blackhawkfinancial.ca.

Bobbi Rebell:
Love it. Thank you so much.

Leanna Haakons:
Thank you so much for having me, Bobbi, loved the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
This story really broke my heart, because we can't through life not trusting anyone. This was someone Leanna had known for a very long time, this was someone that was part of her community. Financial Grownup tip number one, unless you are willing and financially able to part with your money, get it in writing. There are plenty of places like LegalZoom, Nolo, and Rocket Lawyer, I'll leave the links in the show notes, where you can download forms and create simple legal documents for things like selling a car, or other assets. By the way, I don't have any affiliation with any of these companies, but those are some names that you can look at, they may be a good place to start and see if they are the right fit for your needs.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two. Leanna talked about knowing where to spend your money on organic vegetables and fruits. I would add that you should also be thinking about what is in season and what is grown locally because it is in season. Because when something is not in seasons, they often source it from far away places around the world, because these days most of us can get any fruit or vegetable that we want any time of the year, because of being able to basically, as I said, source it from around the world. That doesn't mean that we should, the best deals and the quality often happens when we keep it simple and eat the foods that nature wants us to eat right now.

Bobbi Rebell:
In April, here are some names, ready? Artichokes, asparagus, broccoli, cauliflower, leeks, lettuce, mushrooms, pineapples, radishes, rhubarb, and spring peas. I'm going to leave a link to a calendar and the article from the balance that I grabbed those names from in the show notes, it also has every month of the year so you can go through that article from the balance and look up what fruits and vegetables are best for what month of the year.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, now the time for the big announcement. We have been hearing from a lot of you wanting to share your Financial Grownup stories, your lessons, and of course creative money tips. We're going to start having one guest a month be a listener. If you want to be considered, we're going to keep it simple, see how it goes, email us at info@financialgrownup.com, info@financialgrownup.com and tell us what money story, and what money tip you would share if you were chosen. I'm so excited to hear from you guys and bring all of you our first listener guest.

Bobbi Rebell:
That is the Leanna Haakons episode of Financial Grownup. Subscribe if you have not already. Help us spread the word by sharing on social media. I am @bobbirebell on Twitter, on Instagram @bobbirebell1, and go to bobbirebell.com/financialgrownuppodcast to learn more about the show and sign up for a mailing list, so you can hear about things like how to be a guest on the show. I hope you enjoyed Leanna's story, and that we all got one step closer to being Financial Grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.