Author Erica Keswin returns to the Financial Grownup podcast to discuss her new book Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines Into Workplace Magic. Erica shares specific, free and low cost ways to use rituals to improve productivity, increase a sense of safety and belonging, as well as purpose both for work and for life.

Tip #1:

Begin and end with intention. Beginnings and endings are prime rituals real estate. So be aware of how you start and end your day, and do something that makes you feel most like you.

Tip #2:

Take breaks. We need to build in rituals to actually get up and move.

Tip #3:

Make sure that you're staying connected. We are all feeling isolated and lonely and we're really wired for connection. This may look like scheduling a phone call with a friend. We can build that ritual in once a week or once a month for us to stay connected.

Tip #4:

Give back. If there's ever a time to building a ritual around gratitude, it's 2021. I do believe it's something that many of us started in 2020 that we need to really focus on. There's a lot of data around the impact of gratitude on performance and how we feel in general.

Tip #5:

Build in some rituals to have fun. These days can feel long and heavy and just because it's 2021, that doesn’t mean the pandemic went away. So we need to build in some time for fun, some time for silliness and not feel guilty about it.

Get Erica’s new book, Rituals Roadmap, here

Get all of Erica’s books here

Full Show Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell :

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money, and how you pay your bills. And now we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy.

Bobbi Rebell :

So, if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable, and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power. I know, I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it. And I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have. Go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup Guide. Five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021 with author Erica Keswin. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell. Author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. But you know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell :

Okay, my friends, if ever there was a time we really need to find ways to cope with chaos, total chaos, things we never thought could possibly happen, it is now. And so the timing could not be better to bring back my friend, Erica Keswin to give us some really powerful ways to use rituals, to help get a fresh start and really a better sense of control as we move into 2021, which so far has not been as boring as many of us had hoped it would be.

Bobbi Rebell :

Here in the Financial Grownup podcast we have two formats, one in which we share money stories and the lessons from those stories, but sometimes we like to mix things up. And we have something called Financial Grownup Guides, which focus on tips and strategies for you to live your best financial grownup life. And as Erica shared with me the details of her latest book, it was perfect for that. And even more so, given the events of early 2021.

Bobbi Rebell :

Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines Into Workplace Magic, got me thinking about the rituals I already have and brainstorming new ones to try out. And spoiler alert, not just for the workplace. Now, before I roll the interview, I also to invite everyone to join the Grownup List. We have amazing giveaways coming, including free books from our financial grownup authors. We're also building out some grownup merch, but it's not yet available for sale. You can only get it if you were on the Grownup List and win. Go to my website, bobbirebell.com to get on the List for free. We'll also leave a link in the show notes, and when you get the next newsletter, you will learn how to win the prizes.

Bobbi Rebell :

Speaking of show notes, don't feel you need to take notes on all of the great Intel Erica is going to share. We'll have it all for you in those show notes, which are available under the financial grownup dropdown again, on my website. Okay. I'm really excited for you guys to hear the interview here is Erica Keswin giving us some highlights of Rituals Roadmap. Erica, thanks for coming back to the Financial Grownup Podcast.

Erica Keswin :
Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell :

Big congratulations on your next bestseller, Rituals Roadmap: The Human Way to Transform Everyday Routines into Workplace Magic. You're going to be giving us five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021. But before we get there, first of all, tell us about the book a little bit. And then I'm going to ask you a couple of quick questions.

Erica Keswin :

Sure. I had a book in 2018 as you know because it was on your show called Bring Your Human to Work. And one of the things I realized after it came out that rituals are a tool to create a more human workplace, and to feel more connected. And I know we'll get into some of that. We can use rituals at home. We can use them at work. Right now, working home are pretty much the same thing, so they're even more important. But rituals are very accessible and there's something that we can all use in our lives. And one of the things I found over the last nine months is that they really do help us during turbulent times, especially now.

Bobbi Rebell :

Especially now, and as much as we turn the page and we're now in 2021, the reality is 2021 is likely to be full of so many surprises just as 2020 was. I want to quickly ask you a couple questions about the book and some things that you say in there that I think are particularly relevant to Financial Grownups. The first one is you say in there, the cost of rituals is minimal, but their value is priceless.

Erica Keswin :

Yes. When I started studying rituals, I came up with an equation called the three Ps. The three Ps of rituals. Rituals give us a sense of psychological safety and belonging. They give us an opportunity to connect to purpose. And if you add those two together, it equals performance. And so when I think about performance, it could be that rituals impact how our team feels more connected. It could be bottom line performance, but also performance in our personal lives, that when we have rituals in our lives, our cortisol, our stress goes down, our oxytocin, our feel good hormone goes up. We're more engaged at work. We're more engaged in life. And the book has tons of different studies and science and stories of how rituals impact our lives in really positive ways.

Bobbi Rebell :
And one thing I really enjoyed about the book is that there were a lot of specific examples of that. That we can sort of emulate in our own lives. You call rituals magic, expand a little bit on that.

Erica Keswin :

So people will say, "Well, what is a ritual?" To me, a great example is, if I'm lighting a candle, that may or may not be a ritual. If I'm sitting here lighting a candle because my lights went out, I'm just lighting a candle because I need light. A ritual is something that goes beyond its practical purpose. So if I light a candle every Friday at five o'clock to signify the transition from the workweek to the weekend, I'm almost elevating that act of lighting a candle.

Erica Keswin :

And again, it's not to give me light per se, but it does give me a sense of meaning and connection to myself and to what's going on around me. So that's really that magical element of bringing awareness and intention to what we do.

Bobbi Rebell :
And it's different from something like habits.

Erica Keswin :

Yes. I mean, I believe so. A ritual is something that if you missed it for a day or for a week, something would feel really, really off in your life. It could be if you meditate every morning, for me during the pandemic, we started quarantining on a Thursday I believe, and the following Tuesday I said, "You know what? Our family ritual is to have taco Tuesday, I'm going to do it." I saw the look on it, and my kids are older, they're they're teenagers, but the look on their faces and they were able to smell the same smell and the things that we did pre pandemic. And I was able to see firsthand the impact of maintaining some of those rituals, and how it gave them a sense of psychological safety and belonging.

Erica Keswin :

And rituals also create some order out of chaos. And so I think for everyone now, we need to think about how do we maintain some of our old rituals, but also think about, given that things are so different right now, what are new rituals that we also can add to our lives.

Bobbi Rebell :

Which leads us to the five ways to use the power of rituals for a fresh start in 2021 that you have brought to us.

Erica Keswin :

Great. Begin and end with intention. Beginnings and endings are what I call prime rituals real estate. So be aware of how you start your day, and do something that makes you feel most like you. It could be meditation, taking a few deep breaths or having coffee at Starbucks, which is as many people know my favorite ritual. So that's a really important place to start. It also could be how you end the day. It could be how you transition from work to home, especially when we're all doing that in basically one room. So, transition rituals are important as well.

Erica Keswin : Number two is take breaks. For me if I learned anything in 2020, it's that it's really hard to be in front of your computer all day. And so we need to build in rituals to actually get up and move. And a really fun ritual a woman just share with me recently, she calls 20 by 20 by 20. Every 20 minutes, she takes a 22nd break, 20 feet from her computer-

Bobbi Rebell : Oh I love that.

Erica Keswin :

... and stretches. And again, it's not a box check. It's this elevation of, I know this is important, it's giving me a moment, 20 seconds to connect to something outside of myself. So something that your listeners can try.

Bobbi Rebell :

Yeah. And I think that you wouldn't do that if you didn't have the ritual, because you would feel like if you were taking a break, you are interrupting your workflow and it's not going to help your productivity. But if you have it as a ritual, then that becomes something that you don't feel guilty about. In fact, you know that it's going to empower you to do better the rest of the way.

Erica Keswin :

Exactly. And it's something that you're looking forward to. And it would all of a sudden feel weird if all of a sudden three hours went by and you hadn't gotten up to do it.

Erica Keswin :

Number three is to make sure that you're staying connected. Whether you live alone or living with five other people as I'm doing right now, we are all feeling isolated and lonely and we're really wired for connection. And so, one of the things I've been doing as part of my rituals is to say, "I am going to reach out to some friends and check-in, schedule those phone calls. I have one friend where, and this is actually how you and I met the first time we went for a walk around the reservoir in New York, so maybe when we're both back in New York, we can build that ritual in, you know, once a week or once a month for us to stay connected.

Erica Keswin :

But it's been really nice to get off of Zoom, outside in nature with a friend on a regular time, you know, once a week. So staying connected is number three. Number four is giving back. And I do think that if there's ever a time to building a ritual around gratitude, it's 2021. And that could be anything from coming together with your kids and talking about what you're grateful for, figuring out how you want to give back as a family, you know, the beginning of quarantine, living in New York city, checking in an elderly neighbor, dropping off groceries, I do believe it's something that many of us started in 2020 that we need to really focus on. And there's a lot of data around the impact of gratitude on performance and how we feel in general.

Bobbi Rebell :
And part of a ritual can be involving your entire family.

Erica Keswin :

Yes, 100%. And the kids need to, and they want to. Once they get into it and see the impact on how they feel. I mean, I know we both have seen that firsthand. And last and definitely not least, I'm trying to build in some rituals to have fun. These days can feel long and heavy, and as you said in the beginning, just because it's now on the calendar 2021, it's not as if the pandemic went away. I mean, some people woke up depressing, wow, it's 2021 and things still feel the same. And so we need to build in some time for fun, some time for silliness and not feel guilty about it.

Erica Keswin :

You and I have a mutual friend in Randi Zuckerberg, and she shared with me that on Fridays, and she has little kids, so I think that this connects with the under 10 set, but her family has dessert before dinner on Fridays. And they all think it's like the most hilarious thing.

Bobbi Rebell :
Oh, I think any family will go for that. I think kids of all ages will be on board with that ritual.

Erica Keswin :

You know, or on the company side I've worked, spoke with a group at LinkedIn that has a one-minute dance party every day at three o'clock and they just get up and they let loose, they did it in person, you can do it remote. But again, we need-

Bobbi Rebell :

Erica, I want to see you get your twin daughters to do the one minute dance ritual every day at three o'clock. I think that'd be great.

Erica Keswin :

They would, they probably would want me to film it and put it on my social media, which I have to get special permission to do now. But what we do to have fun is every Monday, our entire family, my husband, my 15 year old son and my dog, we all watch the Bachelor. That is our guilty pleasure. We laugh so hard and we are actually this year doing a bracket like a final four bracket-

Bobbi Rebell : Oh my gosh.

Erica Keswin :
... of the Bachelor.

Bobbi Rebell : I love it.

Erica Keswin :

but be intentional and build in some rituals for fun because we all need it, and it's contagious.

Bobbi Rebell :

Well, there're a lot of great ideas and specific examples in your book. So everyone should check it out. Where can people learn more about you? And I assume the book is going to be available pretty much everywhere.

Erica Keswin :

So you can find me, my email is my name, ericakeswin.com, which is K-E-S as in Sam W-I-N.com. You can sign up for my monthly-ish newsletter to hear more about the book. On the website, there's lots of places, as you said, to order the book from Amazon to Barnes & Noble to the Strand, I'm trying to support local bookstores. And I really do believe that rituals now more than ever can help us through these turbulent times. They don't have to cost a penny, but the impact is priceless

Bobbi Rebell :
Very well said. Thank you so much.

Erica Keswin :
Thanks, Bobby. I can't wait to see you in person.

Bobbi Rebell :

All right my friends. What was your favorite ritual that Erica talked about? For me, definitely dessert before dinner. But most of you guys would guess that pretty quickly. Taco Tuesday though, definitely a classic we can all go for. I would love to hear from you. DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 or on Twitter @bobbirebell, let me know what rituals you and your family and your coworkers use. A lot of the stuff is for work, but frankly, work and home is kind of the same thing these days.

Bobbi Rebell :

Anyway, I'm also really excited about the changes that we're making to the Grownup List. It's going to be coming out pretty reliably I hope, that's the plan once a month. And I want you guys to join ASAP by going to my website, bobbirebell.com because we are going to be doing a lot of giveaways, including author books like Erica's. We're going to be giving away a number of signed copies of that. And also other authors that are appearing on the show. We have a lot of really amazing ones.

Bobbi Rebell :

And as I mentioned at the top of the show, we are developing some merchandise and some really cool stuff that we are going to give away at first, because we're still setting up the store and we want to see what you guys like and get some feedback. So you can be our beta testers and win some free merch. Just get on the Grownup List again at my website. And of course, don't forget to pick up a copy of Erica Keswin's book, Rituals Roadmap. And if you like it, recommend it to friends. We could all use some calming rituals right now. And of course, big thanks to other Erica Keswin for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell :

Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK media production.

Episode Links:

• Erica’s website - https://ericakeswin.com/

Follow Erica!

• Instagram - @ericakeswin

• Twitter - @erica_keswin

• LinkedIn - @ericakeswin

Follow Bobbi!

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter- @bobbirebell

• LinkedIn-https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbirebellkaufman

• Website- http://www.bobbirebell.com/

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Author Barbara Huson joins the Financial Grownup podcast to share her research and insights on a new way to approach learning about money and wealth, as well as preview her latest book Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success

Get Barbara’s new book, Rewire for Wealth here.

Get all of Barbara’s books along with other books by Financial Grownups here.

Barbara’s Steps to Rewire Your Brain for Wealth

Step #1 -

Start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. Separate yourself from the thought.

Step #2-

The second step is reframing your negative thoughts to see it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought.

Step #3-

The third step is you respond differently. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Episode Links:

• Barbara’s website - https://www.barbara-huson.com

Follow Barbara!

• Instagram - @thebarbarahuson

• Twitter - @thebarbarahuson

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbarahuson/

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT-

Bobbi Rebell:

Part of being a financial grownup is making sure you have a plan for how you spend your money and how you pay your bills. Now, we have a new tool for that. It is called Splitit. It will take a lot of the stress away from those big purchases and really allow you to plan ahead. Here's how it works. You shop online, and when you're ready to pay, you just choose Splitit at the checkout to split your payment on your credit card and pay over time. There's no interest, no application, no fees. It is fast and easy. So, if you buy something for $500, you can split it into five smaller payments of $100 a month without any interest or fees, much more manageable and you're in control of your costs. By turning your payments into smaller installments over time with no interest, Splitit gives you more spending power. I know I don't like to have to pay interest if I can avoid it, and I also don't want to always be opening new lines of credit. Split your payments and live big with the credit cards you already have. Go to splitit.com today. That's splitit.com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Three ways to rewire your brain for financial success with Rewire for Wealth author Barbara Huson. You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How to Be a Financial Grownup. You know what? Being a grownup is really hard, especially when it comes to money. But it's okay, we're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey, everyone. Hope you guys are well despite all the chaos going on in the world. It's pretty hard to just keep functioning in daily life, but that's what a lot of us have to kind of find a way to keep doing. I've been continuing to work on my book, tentatively called Launching Financial Grownups, and I'm really taking some time to focus, to refocus, I should say, more on this podcast, which I love doing this podcast for you guys. Some of you know I made a big decision coming into this new year to take a sabbatical from my other podcast, Money with Friends with Joe Saul-Sehy. There was literally no way I was going to get my book done anywhere near the spring deadline, so I needed a jolt and this is what I had to do.

Bobbi Rebell:

Coming into the new year, I think a lot of us can benefit from a jolt and just kind of waking up and seeing things maybe a little differently. We've been dealing with a lot of the same old, same old. A lot of us have gotten into ruts, not surprising given everything going on, but look, we've been quarantining and sometimes this can be a good time for a change in mindset, even though yeah, the new year is sort of an artificial way of marking it. But I think there's something about coming into a new year that can motivate us to change our mindset. So on that note, this week's guest is really perfect for all of that. You guys that want to join me in changing your mindset and getting remotivated, Barbara Huson is an author. She has written seven books. The best one is probably, the one that's really best-known, I should say, is Prince Charming is Not Coming. By the way, it was written not under her current married name, it was written under Barbara Stanny.

Bobbi Rebell:

She now is coming out with her number eight book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. When I first heard the title, I was a bit skeptical, but her team sent me an advanced copy, and not too far into it I was on board. That's why I'm so excited that she made the time to come on the podcast and talk about the themes in the book and how we can all integrate them into our lives. And by the way, even though the book is technically aimed at women, I really believe these strategies are truly for any gender. Before I roll the interview, I'm doing big things this year that I want to make sure to keep you guys informed about, because I'm hoping they can really help you reach a lot of your grownup goals this year.

Bobbi Rebell:

The first thing is I'm going to really be upping the ante with The Grownup List. It's been coming out... well, I've been trying to do it once a month. That hasn't really happened, so we're going to, first of all, try to have it actually come out once a month. We're going to have some big giveaways that I'm really excited about, starting with the one that's going to come out soon in January. So please get on the list. It is free. You just go to my website, BobbiRebell.com to sign up. Please also follow me on Instagram @BobbiRebell1. If you go there, just send me a DM just to say hi so I know that you're there and you've heard this on the podcast. And by the way, apologies in this interview for any audio glitches. Barbara was coming to us from an area with really weak signals, wifi, whatever you want to call it. So the audio is not ideal, but the interview is well worth it. Here is Barbara Huson.

Bobbi Rebell:

Barbara Huson, welcome to Financial Grownup. We're so glad to have you here and we're so excited to hear more about your new book, Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. Welcome.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you, and thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

Before we get into that, I want people to know a little bit about your background, because it is one of a kind. You come from a very unique perspective in your approach to wealth and basically how we should be thinking about it.

Barbara Huson:

I grew up in a wealthy family. My father was the R of H&R Block. The only advice he ever gave me about money was, "Don't worry," which I thought was great advice. I didn't understand money. I just wanted to spend it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I don't want to worry about money. I would love to just spend it. Sounds good to me, Barbara.

Barbara Huson:

Yeah. It sounded great to me until I found out very early in my marriage that my husband, who was a stockbroker, was a compulsive gambler. Over the course of our marriage, he lost a fortune of my inheritance. Here's the insane part, I continued to let him manage the money because that's how terrified and intimidated I was by anything to do with money. After our divorce, I decided I didn't want to deal with money, it's not my thing. Well, I have learned that if you don't deal with your money, your money will deal with you. Then the next year, I got tax bills for over a million dollars for back taxes my ex didn't pay for illegal deals he got us in. My signature was on everything. I hired lawyers, I got the tax bill down. I sold what was left in my trust. I was left with nothing. I had a few properties. I had a few properties…and so if I lived frugally, I'd be fine. I had three daughters. I was not going to raise them on the street. I was determined to get smart.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That's what we call a financial grownup moment, is having your husband gamble away your fortune and having to figure it out with young children. For sure. So you have a lot to teach us. I know that from that moment, you went on this mission. For years, you've really dedicated your life to educating women, to coaching women about wealth. You now have seven books out. Your eighth one is coming out and now you're here talking to us, which I'm so grateful for. You brought us three tips to rewire your brain for financial success. First, talk a little bit before we get to that about the whole concept of that, because this is a whole different way to think about money, starting with how our brains work.

Barbara Huson:

About six years ago, I stumbled on an article about neuroscience. If I could integrate neuroscience, the principles of neuroscience, of rewiring your brain into the work that I was doing with finances, helping women become financially empowered, that can expedite the learning curve and get them past the resistance in a very short time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give us an overview of the three tips, and then we can talk about what each one is.

Barbara Huson:

So the three steps are simply recognize, reframe and respond differently. Recognize, reframe, and respond differently. I'll explain these steps in a minute, but you must do these over and over and over and over again, because the key to rewiring your brain, to changing the habits, is repetition. So the first step, recognize. What that means is you start observing those negative or unhealthy or maladaptive thoughts that go through your mind. Start observing them. "Oh, I'm having a thought about not having enough. Oh, I'm having a thought about I have to have those shoes. I have to have that designer handbag," or whatever. Or, "I'm not enough." But you start observing, and you observe these thoughts with curiosity. Not judgment, not negativity. "Oh, isn't that interesting? I'm having a thought," because by doing that, you separate yourself from the thought.

Barbara Huson:

The second step is taking that thought, "There's never enough," and reframing it, seeing it differently. It could be as simple as looking at the opposite of that thought, "Oh, there's enough. There's enough," or maybe it's, "oh, here's an opportunity to rewire that thought." The third step is you respond differently. You [inaudible 00:09:24] do. What you do want to do, which doesn't feel right, which doesn't come naturally. In that case, there's never enough and you could go into fear and not want to open your bills and not want to look at your checkbook. Therefore, the thing to do is open at least one bill or start looking at your checkbook. The key is to respond differently over and over and over again. Each time you respond differently, you weaken the neural pathway that says there's never enough to build a new neural pathway that says there's more than enough.

Bobbi Rebell:

What do you say to people that maybe have people around them that are counter-effective? I don't know if that's quite the right word. They're not supportive of this rewiring idea. That are filling people with the wrong kinds of thoughts. How do you do that? Especially, we're in quarantine, sometimes we don't have much choice with who we're with.

Barbara Huson:

It's really, really important that you, at least while you are rewiring, while you want to shift from being one way to being another way, it's really important to surround yourself with people who are supporting you and not trying to rain on your parade. And that may mean if your husband is being a naysayer, simply not listening, walking out of the room. But it's really important, it's a really good point you made, because you become who you're with. There is a tendency to become who you're with. It's very important to distance yourself emotionally, if not physically, from the people who are not there supporting you.

Bobbi Rebell:

That is such good advice. Tell us more about... The book is coming out in January. Tell us more about where people can find out more about the book and about you and be in touch with you.

Barbara Huson:

Well, you can go to my website, which is Barbara-Huson, H-U-S-O-N, .com. Barbara-Huson.com. The book is actually for presale now. I know it's on Amazon and Barnes & Noble, but yes, you can come to my website. There's just lots of stuff on there, and I have wonderful offerings on there. I invite anyone to come.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, thank you so much for joining us. I love the book. In fact, I endorsed it, so that's truly something that I don't do very often, but this book really struck me as something very important that we should all be embracing in the way that we approach money. I think a lot of people can benefit from this different way of thinking about wealth and our money. So thank you so much for being here and thank you so much for this newest book.

Barbara Huson:
Thank you so much for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

So, are you guys ready to rewire for wealth? Let me know how you like the book and what other authors you'd like for me to invite on the Financial Grownup podcast. We actually have a lot of big author interviews coming up this winter, and most of them are going to be donating books to be given away to those of you on The Grownup List. We're also giving away branded merchandise as a sneak peek to what we're going to be fully launching a little bit later on, probably early spring. And you can enter and win only if you are on The Grownup List. Super easy to join. Go to my website, BobbiRebell.com, and just sign up. See you guys there. Big thanks, of course, to Barbara Huson, for helping us rewire for wealth and be financial grownups. Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media production.

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

 

Clever Girl Finance’s Bola Sokunbi is famous for saving $100k on a $54k salary in about 3 years. But then she started dropping $3,000 on a massive collection of luxury handbags, most of which she never even used. 

In Bola’s money story you will learn:

-How she saved more than $100,000 on a salary of just $54,000 in three and a half years

-The side hustle that helped her reach that goal

-How after she reached that goal, she made a very unexpected spending splurge

-The fascinating reason, looking back, that she went down that path and kept going!

-The moment she woke up and realized she had to make a change

-Exactly what she did to get back on track and make a profit in the process

-The regret she had despite making money on her debacle

-Why she thinks so much about Amazon stock

In Bola’s money lesson you will learn:

-Why keeping her handbags in top condition was the key in getting a solid return when she went to sell them

-Other ways to maintain the value of resale able luxury goods like handbags

-Her take on investing in goods like handbags compared to the stock market and corporations

In Bola’s money tip you will learn:

-Ways to get luxury goods like handbags for less money without compromising quality

-Bola’s favorite pre-owned goods resources

-How friends can trade or sell handbags to each other

-Bola’s new strategy for buying expensive handbags

In my take you will learn:

-Why I compare Bola’s handbag venture to winning the lottery

-The difference between saving money and building wealth

-How to sell luxury goods like handbags, as well as other things you can sell, like baby strollers

-Why I do not promote buying fake goods as a cheaper option

Episode links

Bola’s website: CleverGirlFinance.com

Bola’s podcast: Clever Girls Know

Follow Bola!

Twitter Clever Girl Finance

Instagram Clever Girl Finance

Facebook Clever Girl Finance

LinkedIn Bola Sokunbi

 

Also mentioned in the show:

Vestiare Collective

Fashionphile

Rent the Runway

---

Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
Support for Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell and the following message come from TransferWise, the cheaper way to send money internationally. TransferWise takes a machete to the hefty fees that come with sending money abroad. Test it out for free at transferwise.com/podcast or download the app.

Bola Sokumbi:
I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather. Like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Financial Grownup with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of How To Be A Financial Grownup. You know what, being a grownup is really hard especially when it comes to money, but it's okay. We're going to get there together. I'm going to bring you one money story from a financial grownup, one lesson, and then my take on how you can make it your own. We got this.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. This is one of those, "She did not do that," episodes. My guest was a champ at saving money on a very low income, but once she had that money, things took in unexpected turn and then there was yet another unexpected twist to the story. Bola Sokumbi is a certified financial education instructor and the force behind the very popular, Clever Girl Finance, a website and podcast that empowers and educates women to make the best financial decisions for them. Here is Bola Sokumbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Bola Sokumbi, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:
I am such a fan of yours. First of all, in addition to being a money expert, you are the force behind Clever Girl Finance, which is a website and a podcast. It started after you. I don't even know how you did this. You saved $100,000 in three and a half years on a salary of, I want to say, about $50,000?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I was making $54,000 before taxes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Give us just the high level. How you did that.

Bola Sokumbi:
I basically got lean and mean with, probably, my finances. I contributed to my retirement fund from my employer because I knew they were offering a match and that was a way for me to get some free money. I kept my expenses super low. I avoided my friends and stayed home. I wasn't going out to eat very much. I wasn't buying alcohol. I was the-

Bobbi Rebell:
Temporarily, right?

Bola Sokumbi:
Temporarily.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Bola Sokumbi:
I was in a steady ramen noodles and coke diet. I focused on saving 40 to 50% of my paycheck and anything extra.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I save my tax returns, my bonuses. I try to save as much as possible. I also started a side hustle. I started a wedding photography business, which really helped to increase the amount of money I was bringing in. That helped contribute to me being able to save that amount of money. Finally, I avoided credit cards as best I could. I, instead, used a charge card that require me to pay my balance in full every month. That kept me really mindful about my spending, but overall, it was really just setting the intention that I wanted to save and I wanted to challenge myself to save six figures. I put my mind to it. I gone to that focus and three and a half years later, I was able to save that $100,000.

Bobbi Rebell:
So smart. In full details, if anyone wants, go to Clever Girl Finance. I want to talk about your money story that you brought because Bola, this is like an incredible story given what you just said.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Here you are. You got $100,000. You're hustling with a side hustle. You're eating ramen noodles. You're doing everything intentionally, maxing out your retirement account to get the max. What do you do? You start buying $3,000 handbags. Tell us what, what.

Bola Sokumbi:
Holla.

Bobbi Rebell:
What?

Bola Sokumbi:
Let me break it down. Basically, I got to this point where I had saved a ton of money. I had a lot of money in the bank. Actually, at the end of the four years, I had about $150,000 saved. I was making more money. I had my business. I gone raising at my job. I was earning, now, well over six figures at this point. I was like "Wow, I have all this money. I maxed out my retirement savings. I'm still meeting my savings obligations. I just have to treat myself." I've always been a handbag junkie. It's just something about leather, like the smell of fine leather that just ... I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
I personally would've bought a pint of Haagen-Dazs if I wanted to treat myself but okay. $3,000 handbags.

Bola Sokumbi:
I went all the way, yes. I got my first designer handbag like "Oh my God, this is amazing. It's beautiful. I bought this in cash. I love it."

Bobbi Rebell:
What was it? Describe it.

Bola Sokumbi:
It was a Channel Jumbo in black caviar leather with gold hardware, classic, beautiful.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. I wouldn't know.

Bola Sokumbi:
I got the one. Should've been enough, but then I was like well, few months later, I have all the spare money. I'm still saving. I didn't know what to do. I want to invest, but I don't need to invest that much. I'm going to buy another designer handbag. I got to the point where I was buying several handbags for maybe three or four years. To me, it was fine because I was still saving. I was still meeting my obligation.

Bobbi Rebell:
How much do you think you spent in total, Bola, on the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh my goodness. I don't know. If we were to have an Instagram competition on who could grab their handbags steady for the next 30 to 60 days, I would win, every time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wait. Wait. You're going to have a different handbag every day for 30 to 60 days?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah, I could. Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Bola Sokumbi:
I could've. I have a lot of handbags. I had them in different colors-

Bobbi Rebell:
Were they just sitting in the closet? Were you taking them to work? What was going on with the handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
That's the sucky part. I maybe use like two or three. Well, I was exaggerated. I didn't have 60. Exaggerating. About a month. Let's say, a month. I didn't really use them. That was a disappointing factor. I'm one of those people that believe that if there's something that you like and it's something that you're going to use, go for it as long as you plan it out financial, but I wasn't using them. They did not make financial sense for me. I was using like one or two of them, and then maybe the others, I would look at or wear to a baby shower for 25 minutes and it goes right back into the closet. It did not make any financial sense. Fortunately, for me, at the time that I purchase them, for those of you who are into handbags, knew that there have been a flurry of price increases especially with the higher end luxury brands.

Bola Sokumbi:
At the time I bought the handbags, I bought them before the crazy price increases started. I got to a point where I was like "Okay, this doesn't make any sense." I will look in my closet and all I would see would be dollar bills stacked up. My husband is like "You need to let these go. You don't even use them. It doesn't make sense. You feel so guilty about having them because you're not using them." I took it upon myself to sell almost every one of them. I still have a few. The ones I use. It was really hard to sell them because I felt like I was selling my children. It's crazy. When I think about it, it's ridiculous, but I sold them. Luckily, for me, because of the price increases, I was able to sell them for a lot more than I purchase. That very first Channel handbag, the black jumbo I just described with caviar hardware, I paid $2,900 for it and I sold it for $5,500.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my goodness. Only you, Bola, would actually turn a cringeworthy shopping habit into a positive investment experience.

Bola Sokumbi:
However, Bobbi, to the point you asked me before we started recording was, I made money but when I think about it, I really didn't make that much money because one of the things that trigger me to start selling those handbags was Amazon stock. I realized that if I had spent all that money I spent on those handbags on Amazon Stock, I would've had times 100 of what I had spent on handbags. Not just doubling my money. I would've like times 100 it, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
If you had actually bought Amazon Stock, but truthfully, how much do you think ... do you think you spent $90,000 on handbags?

Bola Sokumbi:
Oh, I don't know. Over a three to four year period, I spent a lot of money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. You bought 30 handbags at $3,000 each.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I had about 30. They were not all the same price.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay.

Bola Sokumbi:
They were not all $3,000 handbags.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was the most expensive one?

Bola Sokumbi:
The Channel handbags I had. They were about in the $3,000, $3,500 range at that time. Now, they're not anymore. They're about 6 to $7,000 now.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow.

Bola Sokumbi:
I don't own any more handbags by the way.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson from this beyond the fact that there was a time in life when investing in handbag was actually an appreciable asset? Still, they probably know. I don't know the market, but anyway, beyond the fact that it actually turned on to be a good investment.

Bola Sokumbi:
I wouldn't even describe as an appreciable handbag because for me, it was just purely for the fact that I was not using them. No one is going to pay you top dollar for a handbag that has been worn and beat up. If you're buying something, I believe that you should be using it. Lesson for this is cost per wear. You can have 100 Channel handbags if you want to have them and if you can afford them and you're paying for them in cash and it's not taking off your financial goals, but what is your cost per wear. How often are you using them? Are you getting your money's worth? If you buy a handbag for $3,000 and you wear it once, then that one time you wore it cost you $3,000 and that makes no sense. If you buy this handbag and you wear it 3,000 times over four years, then that handbag cost you $1 or maybe it comes down to cents and pennies and that starts to make more sense because as opposed to buying $25 handbags over that three-year period and use that one handbag over that time and you get your cost per wear.

Bola Sokumbi:
To me, cost per wear is really important. That's how I plan out my wardrobe. I still buy fancy things, but I have to be using them. I have to get my cost per wear down to pennies for it to make sense. I know when I see something if I'm going to use it or not. Understand your cost per wear. People may think, "Oh, buying handbags is crazy," but people spend their money on different things. For me, it was the handbag thing. Some people spend their money on electronics, on cars, on things that they don't necessarily use like having a second car in your garage that you drive on Saturday is not good to drive per wear.

Bobbi Rebell:
The handbags make you feel good.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. I would pick a handbag over a lot of things. That was me. That was a lesson I learned. I put the money right back into my investment accounts. I was better for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's stick with the handbag thing. What is your money tip, your everyday money tip for everyone?

Bola Sokumbi:
I would say that if you are a handbag girl like me, no shay, no judgment, find ways to get the handbags that you like at a cheaper cost or without putting out so much money. For instance, Bobbi, you and I talked about Rent the Runway. You really like that. If you want to actually own them, you can think about getting them preowned from sties like Fashion File or Vestiaire Collective. There's a bunch of different ones that are reputable that sell authentic products or even local consignment stores in New York. There's a ton of them. Or buying them off of friends who are trying to let go of their handbags or trying to recycle their wardrobe. Those are great ways that you can get luxury at a lower cost. You can also wait until some of these handbags go into the sale and purchase them that way.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because a lot of them are really classic.

Bola Sokumbi:
Yes. It's all about buying something that you know you're going to use for a long time. I tend to avoid any trend pieces because I don't want to be out of fashion next year after spending all this money on it. I buy bags that I can carry forever. That's what I do. Every purchase I make right now, I carry that bag to shreds, basically.

Bobbi Rebell:
Definitely. Get that cost per wear down. Where can people find you and learn more about Clever Girl Finance?

Bola Sokumbi:
Yeah. You can find me on my website at clevergirlfinance.com, on Instagram at Clever Girl Finance, on Facebook, Clever Girl Finance. I also have a podcast called, Clever Girls Know. You can search for it on iTunes, Stitcher, Sound Cloud. You'll find it there as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
I think everyone should definitely check all of that out. I am a big fan. Thank you so much, Bola.

Bola Sokumbi:
Thank you for having me, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, friends. Except for the fact that she was ironically able to sell the handbags at a profit, this whole thing reminds me of what happens when people inherit a ton of money or they win the lottery and then they just don't know what to do, so they go shopping. Financial Grownup tip number one, Bola was great at accumulating money but she was selling herself short when it came to building wealth. She was meeting her goals in terms of saving and investing and all that, but that doesn't mean she couldn't move the goal post given the resource that she had and make even more ambitious goals. Not a problem to buy a bag that you can afford, but she wasn't even using most of them. Bola is very specific that, well, they ironically went up in value if she had invested the money. In her case, she talks about Amazon Stock, she would've made a lot more money. Of course, you could lose money in the stock market. There's no guarantee of that. It's just something to consider.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup tip number two, if you do buy luxury goods and you aren't using them, it is easier than ever to sell them, so many resources online. You may not make as big a profit as Bola did, you may lose money but you're still going to get some cash. I have sold some bags on the real wheel. I've been happy to have the cash even though it went for less than I paid. You can also buy slightly used bags there at a discount if you want them. As I've said before, you can rent them at Rent the Runway or other similar websites. I will leave some links in the show notes for you guys. Given these resources, I would also urge you to stay away from the fakes. It undermines the economy and the business of the companies that produce the real thing. Don't buy fake bags. Also, it is illegal.

Bobbi Rebell:
We want you to be a financial grownup. Send us an email to info@financialgrownup.com if you want to be considered for one of our monthly listener episodes. Just tell us what the money story is that you want to share and your everyday money tip. If you have not already, please rate and review the podcast on iTunes, Apple Podcast. That helps others discover us and grow the community. It is truly appreciated. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any upcoming episodes and follow me at Bobbi Rebell on Twitter @ bobbirebell1 on Instagram and on Facebook, I am at Bobbi Rebell. Bola is the best. I am so appreciative that she was brave enough to get really candid. She definitely got us all one step closer to being financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Financial Grownup with Bobbi Rebell is edited and produced by Steve Stewart and is a BRK Media Production.

Bobbi reveals her favorite new money related books for financial grownups, and how to decide if they are right for you. This episode's picks include Undaunted, Overcoming doubts and doubters by Hint Founder and CEO Kara Goldin, The Rocket Years, How your Twenties Launch the Rest of Your Life, by Elizabeth Segran, The Money Tree, A story about Finding the Fortune in Your Own Backyard by Chris Guillebeau and The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live by William Hirsch. Plus a bonus fiction pick; They Wish They Were Us by Jessica Goodman

Book 1: Undaunted. Overcoming doubts and doubters by Kara Goldin.

Here’s what I liked about the book: 

Kara is the founder of Hint and while I have yet to meet her in person we’ve got a lot of friends in common and have spoken many times- I thought I knew her pretty well before I read her book. And certainly from all the articles that have been written about her success. I had no idea. Kara reveals a lot in this book -and it is interesting because it’s really the candid and not so pretty personal side of a business launch. Things we just assume ‘get done’ she was actually, often with her family in tow, just doing herself. And even when it looks like - oh - she made it-there she is on the cover of a magazine being lauded for her achievements- behind the scenes- the business hit another HUGE challenge- and all that work could just go “poof’. The book also has a lot of “what would I have done given those choices- all of which were bad choices?” - something we can probably all relate to during the pandemic. I was on the edge of my seat reading this- not typical for a business book. Highly recommend.  

Who is this book for? 

It’s pretty obvious this book is going to be a home run for entrepreneurs who are bootstrapping it- Kara and her family literally put in their own money - and not always by choice- when there was no other funding option. 

But it is also for anyone dealing with tough career choices in this pandemic. As much as Kara has done well with this venture- she wonders along the way- would it have been easier- and frankly MORE lucrative- to have stayed on the corporate track. The books also has great lessons about balancing your business and your family- when it is not always realistic to separate them- we can all relate to the blending of work and family - and not by choice- and Kara has great lessons on how to deal with it all. 

Book #2:  The Rocket Years, How your Twenties Launch the Rest of Your Life, by Elizabeth Segran

Here’s what I liked about the book

I loved seeing the choices of a twenty something through her unique vantage point. Liz clarifies the impact of the decisions we make in a way that really has not been presented before - and that’s not easy to do. I also like the way she outlined the different aspects of the Rocket Years - meaning your 20’s. Its not all financial-it’s a whole ecosystem that works together to form who you are and to a larger extent than many of us consciously realize, the life we will lead. 

Who is this book for?

The book is written for twenty somethings figuring out their lives- but it is telling that the author wrote it in her thirties.. so it is also something anyone out of their twenties can use to reflect on the choices they have made, and the impact they have had. That’s why I love it. 

And you can learn more about Liz and have her answer your questions by listening to my other podcast Money with Friends- where she is a regular co-host this season- it’s in all the places podcasts are- and also we record the episodes live on the money with friends tube channel so please subscribe to the money with friends youtube channel as well.

Book #3: The Money Tree, A story about Finding the Fortune in Your Own Backyard by Chris Guillebeau

Here’s what I liked about the book 

This book is super creative in that it uses a fictional storyline to share a unique perspective on the money decisions we all make. At first I thought it would be pretty predictable but it wasn’t. There are unexpected plot twists and an ending I did not see coming. I didn’t know Chris at all when I did his interview for the Financial Grownup podcast but I was so wowed by him that I asked him to be part of Money with Friends. He was so great on that podcast as well. 

Chris is a wonderful story teller- which is a true credit to him because his previous six books - including Side Hustle: From Idea to Income in 27 Days were non-fiction.

Who is this book right for: 

I love this for anyone trying to figure out who they are- from a money perspective. By that I mean- what are your actual priorities? What are you willing to do to achieve your goals? Are you willing to stop being a victim and start taking action? Are you willing to put in the work? This book will be incredibly motivating. I love it as a book heading not just into a New Year in general - but heading into 2021- a time when many of us are ready- really ready- to re-start whatever we put on hold or get started with new goals that have formed during 2020. And on that note- it is also an awesome gift for your friends that need a little more motivation when it comes to generating income and taking charge of their own financial life. Kind of a perfect book to help someone become a financial grownup. 

Book #4: The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live by William Hirsch.

Here’s what I liked about the book

This is the perfect book for the pandemic and for trying to find new ways to have your  work and personal lives co-exist in your home as you never imagined. Our homes were not set up for us to work at this level- and frankly for the vast majority  they weren’t set up for us to spend pretty much 24-7 there with our family. I know when I set up my business, I set up to have places to work in my home when my kids were all at school and my husband was at work- often traveling days at a time. The pandemic ended all that. 

This is not a book I would have picked up had it not been suggested to me by a friend I really trust- and even though it is not technically a money book- Bill even codes the cost of this tips by cost- so you can prioritize based on your budget. 

I have literally put so many ideas from the book to work: I now have greenery outside my window- and feel good knowing that Bill said it is perfectly fine if that greenery is fake. It actually makes me feel calmer to look out at my fake green hedge. I also use his pebbles technique- where you get rid of little distractions around your home- yes- change the lightbulb- and make sure it is warm color! Pick up the clutter, fix that squeeky door. You get the idea. He has tips on how to arrange your furniture, how to use specific ways of using art on the walls- even things like putting framed windows in your homes to serve as surrogate windows. I did some eye rolls- until I realized- this stuff really works. 

Who is this book right for?

Everyone whose home life has been impacted by the pandemic. Read it and take notes. And of course listen to Bill’s episode of the podcast. You can also read the show notes on my website bobbirebell.com- just search for his name in the search bar at the top of the website. 

Bonus Fiction Book: They With They Were Us by Jessica Goodman

This was a total page turner and I’m going to have an interview with the author, Cosmo editor Jessica Goodman early in 2021. I could not put this down.  Not a surprise it is being turned into a TV series called The Players Table- which will make total sense after you read the book. It is going to star Sydney Sweeney from the series Euphoria- as well as Halsey. It has been described as quote “Gossip Girl meets One of Us Is Lying with a dash of The Secret History in this slick, taut murder mystery set against the backdrop of an exclusive prep school on Long Island”

Episode Links:

• My Bookshop page: https://bookshop.org/lists/financial-grownup-authors

• Undaunted, Overcoming doubts and doubters by Hint Founder and CEO Kara Goldin

• The Rocket Years, How your Twenties Launch the Rest of Your Life by Elizabeth Segran

• The Money Tree, A story about Finding the Fortune in Your Own Backyard by Chris Guillebeau

• The Well-Centered Home: Simple Steps to Increase Mindfulness, Self-Awareness, and Happiness Where You Live by William Hirsch

• They Wish They Were Us by Jessica Goodman

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Optometrist Jen Tsai was in the process of launching her solo practice when the pandemic hit. She shares how she kept her cool and managed to overcome financing and construction challenges, as well as build a retail practice while the world was in turmoil. 

Jennifer’s Money Story:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, it definitely wasn't my goal to open a cold start practice in the start of pandemic. I honestly thought with the year being 2020 it would be good luck to open it with that, but you can never plan for things. I think that was an important lesson, to just always be prepared, especially financially, with working capital, when you go into any business. If we didn't do that, if I didn't do that, we would've been in a different place today.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
I think being prepared for that was always important, and being able to work the first couple of years, just seeing how other practices ran their business, really taught me a lot because I paid attention to their maybe downfalls and ways that they were efficient and applied that to my own business model.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now, how did you balance everything? Because you had these plans in place, you were geared up to start this business, then coronavirus hit and you did have other financial things going on you had to balance. You still had student debt, so you had to balance that. Did you take out loans? How did you finance this business and how did you keep going as this pandemic is emerging?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, I definitely have student debt. Luckily, my undergrad was paid off and I had some scholarships. In terms of medical school and optometry school, it is quite expensive as we all know and we come out of it with a couple hundred thousand dollars with our name. I didn't always have a fear of taking out debt. I understood and I did my research about what the student rates were. I think a lot of people do have a fear of taking out student debt, and when they finish school their immediate goal is to completely pay off their loans because it may seem daunting or scary and they feel that they can't continue to do other things with their money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and it's not that it's bad to pay off the student debt. It's bad if it keeps you from living your life, I guess, is what you're getting at, that you don't start other things until you pay it down completely when you're facing, in your case, six-figure debt.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah. I think that is definitely something that stalls people or holds them back. I think it's important to realize that student debt is not a bad thing. I think people see it as a bad thing. There's definitely a lot of debt that other people have that they don't realize on a day-to-day basis that's actually worse, which is credit card loans that you purchase stuff with. Those interest rates are definitely higher.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Going into that, I definitely saved up enough working capital and I made sure that I refinanced my loans to make sure that I had a lower interest rate. I didn't really let that stop me from chasing my dreams and going after what I really wanted. Initially, I was held a bit back, looking at the cost of how much to start a complete cold start. I was even looking at buying old practices that were definitely a lot cheaper, but also evaluating their P&Ls. Thinking about the whole thing, I realized in the long run, this is a short-term investment for your end goal, which is the more important thing. So I was willing to take that investment, especially on myself. That's what I wanted to focus on.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did things change when you were in the pandemic and you're trying to start this?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Once it was around March, we were gearing up to open. We were finally putting down the finishing touches for the front of the store and then the pandemic happened. I'm in New York City, so when it first happened in March, it definitely was a tough time. It was really scary for us. We knew it was coming from upstate and then all of a sudden it became widespread and immediately everything just shut down. It was like a ghost town. We couldn't even go to the site to really look at the construction because we weren't even allowed to be in proximity with our contractors, so everything just came to a halt. I had to quickly convert to a virtual telehealth visit for my patients, while doing virtual Zoom calls with my architect team. It was just insane. It was an insane time. We couldn't even finish our construction because we had to apply for permitting in order to be able to finish construction during a pandemic.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Finally, around I would say maybe like June or July, they allowed us to go back in to finish construction. Of course, at that point there was delays in manufacturers with their materials, getting it to our store. It was just working around that. I mean, I will tell you, our store still isn't even completely done to this day. I've just learned to live day by day at this point. But luckily, we were able to at least open our doors August 6. I was just really excited to get in there. After four months of not really seeing patients in person, I wanted to be back in there to be able to care for the ones that really needed to see me during that time.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Then I was shocked because we basically, starting from the first day a month and a half ago to now, it's been seeing eight to 10 patients already. Partly, I think it would attribute to probably a little bit of social media, just sharing out there honest, brutal moments that I have and I think it makes it more authentic that people do see where you come from, and also sharing the fact that we're there to provide a space where they feel safe and comfortable, that it's modern and clean. I think that going forward, people really care about their health, patients really do, especially with COVID, that they realize how important their health is and they're willing to invest in that. I am grateful that people have been able to come in.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did you do in advance financially to shore up your finances and made sure you had that runway?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
On a bigger scale level I think about it. People are either really trigger happy, or they're really risk adverse. If you're really risk adverse, you'll never take the first step because you're just afraid of all these self-doubts that you have. I think what has helped me is just really creating a strong financial plan and making sure that you have everything checked off for the worst-case scenario in case it happens, because you never know. I think for people who are trigger happy, I think that's one thing that they need to think about. Are there things that could happen, such as a pandemic, that will maybe cause me to not have any cashflow or working capital going into it?

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Coming out of school a couple of years later, I realized it doesn't make sense to not refinance my loan so that I could reduce my interest rate and have it all in one place. That has helped me manage my money better. I was working, I would say for the first four years, full-time. Actually, when I first started in two practices, then I went down to one. I hustled, I worked really hard to save money. I didn't put it all into paying off my loans. I used it to save up money, invest on the side, so I had a better cash flow and working capital because I knew that I wanted to start my own practice at that point in time. I just knew that I needed money saved up to do that.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Starting lean when you start a practice is really important and only purchasing things when you need it. It has to justify. If you buy a piece of equipment, how many times do you have to perform the procedure to make the money back, thinking about that, cutting back on vendor purchases or offering more of a curated product of frame line. I think these days, patients prefer that one-on-one time, that one-on-one experience to feel like they've had an amazing experience at the store. You don't have to purchase a million things that don't get bought, instead focusing on limited product lines and setting aside cash reserves to pay bills and reducing your overhead capital expenditures and working with your vendors and landlord, if it's possible, if they're willing to negotiate with you.

Jennifer’s Money Lesson:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
I would say, little by little, a little becomes a lot. These little steps that you set in place for the long road is really important. One of the things for me is making sure that you have your financial steps in place. At least for me, that was refinancing my student loans, that was the very first step. For example, I use Laurel Road. Right now, I think federal interest rates are so low it's silly to not take advantage of that. It's great to have this digital lending platform that is built for specifically young professionals in healthcare as well to work towards their goals. There's definitely perks and rewards that they have for healthcare professionals. Refinancing definitely helps you with savings over time, and that's how you can use working capital to invest towards your future or your dream practice or something that you want to build.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right, and it's also going to help your credit score to have all of your finances in order, obviously, which is going to help if you do need to get more funding, especially if you get these unexpected things like a pandemic and you need to access maybe more capital, more time to pay loans and better rates than you maybe thought before.

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Right, exactly. I agree.

Jennifer’s Money Tip:

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
Yeah, shiny object syndrome is definitely a public enemy if you go down this rabbit hole of just purchasing everything you find. They're really good at it with marketing, you're just sitting at home, scrolling through your phone on social media and there's something that you want. I remember when I first graduated out of school, with my first paycheck living in New York City, the first thing I decided to buy was a Chanel bag. That was the worst decision I ever made. I could not pay rent the next month. I learned really, really quickly to not do that. I think that was because of Sex and the City. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is so cool living in New York."

Dr. Jennifer Tsai:
But I think learning stuff like that is really important. You don't have to have every single piece of brand new state-of-the-art technology in your office. I know you want it for your patients and for your store, but you want to start off very lean so that your savings don't get sucked dry so fast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, and I think that makes sense. I mean, I was upset because the style that I wanted on your eyeglasses store was sold out, but you kept your inventory tight so you're living true to that. You don't want to buy so much inventory that you're holding on to inventory. You're starting out your business lean.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Take your time. I was so frustrated that the glasses I wanted to order it were sold out on her online store, Carrot Eyewear, but Dr. Jen explained that she needed to control her risk exposure by keeping inventories lean, even if that meant losing out on some sales, like to me. Yes, it may slow the pace of the retail business growth, but when the pandemic hit, she wasn't over leveraged. Patience pays. Think about how you can buy just what you need so you don't feel stretched and stressed.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Paying down debt is all good, but as we have learned in the past eight or nine months, well, it shouldn't be at the expense of having enough cash on hand to manage through something totally unexpected, like a global pandemic. Don't miss any payments, be mindful, think about how you can refinance maybe at a lower rate as Jen did, especially with our still super low interest rates, but also do the other things to build your life and keep living.

Episode Links:

• Jennifer’s websites -

  • www.drjennifertsai.com

  • www.lineofsightvision.com

  • www.carroteyewear.com

Follow Jennifer!

• Instagram - @drjenandjuice

• Instagram - @lineofsightvision

• Instagram - @carroteyewear

• Facebook - Carrot Eyewear

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Allison Baggerly’s emergency fund was literally a life saver for her beloved dog Joey. She shares her money story, along with an everyday money tip that rescued her from an expensive online shopping habit she developed during the coronavirus pandemic. 

Allison’s Money Story:

Allison Baggerly:
Well, when my husband and I were working to pay off debt, we had two teacher salaries, we were living on two teacher's salaries, working to pay off debt. And we have our dog, Joey, he's still here with us today. He's old, but he is well, and we were visiting family. We left to go see some friends and our dog thought we were leaving him for good. I don't know if he thought maybe we didn't love him anymore. I don't know what happened. But he jumped a chain link fence, ripped out a toenail. The emergency vet we took him to did not give him a strong enough prescription for his size, and he also wrapped his leg too tight.

Allison Baggerly:
So by the time we took off the wrap, he had actually developed gangrene in his leg. And so we were two poor teachers. We basically drained our savings to cover the cost of his leg amputation. I'll never forget feeling so stressed and so overwhelmed because I thought how are we going to pay for this? How are we going to pay for our beloved dog who had this accident? It was completely unexpected. And so we just felt very lost and very helpless in that moment.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what happened? First of all, did you go back to the vet and have certainly at the very least, I mean, how could they have charged you for this given that it sounds like there was some fault on their part?

Allison Baggerly:
So we never were able to prove fault on their part. I was just so emotionally worked up and focused on our dog that I was just like, you know what? I don't even care. People were like you need to get revenge. You need to get your money back. And so we ended up getting some of the money back. Actually my father-in-law contacted his homeowners insurance and somehow they covered the cost of that vet visit, but we had to be out of pocket for the amputation. We actually took them to two different vets to get him looked at. And then our vet was the one who did the amputation and he said he had never seen a case so bad. It was rapidly, like you could see it going up his leg over time. And so it was a matter of, we knew we had to pay for it. Thankfully we didn't have to go into debt or put it on a credit card for it, but it completely drained our savings, which made me feel very insecure as a person in terms of my money.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah, because that was by definition your backstop. And now what happens if something else happens and it teaches us that as much as emergency funds are important, somehow they're never enough, especially we see what's going on with Coronavirus. We've talked about three to six months emergency funds as being sort of the gold standard. And here we are six months passed. So this is a reminder that it's not only coronavirus that can really devastate an emergency fund. There's so many things that happen. And of course with medical stuff, with humans and with furry friends, you can't always get a second opinion in an emergency. I mean, you were stuck with a medical help you could get at that moment, and you couldn't really go in and be negotiating the bill. You needed medical help. It was an emergency,

Allison Baggerly:
It was an emergency. We needed it right then, or else it would spread to his body and he would have died. It just goes to show you that so often people say $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 is enough while you're paying off debt. And that taught me that it wasn't. It wasn't enough. I was not prepared to cover those types of things. And those things are going to happen whether or not you like it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And I have to ask you, so I'm guessing you did not have pet insurance at the time.

Allison Baggerly:
No, we didn't have pet insurance and we don't have pet insurance now. We just paid for it out of our savings, it completely drained it. We ended up actually canceling, my husband had a work trip that he was going to be going on. We ended up canceling that work trip. He was going to have to pay for things like hotel and food so that we could try to increase our savings or put some of that money back in our savings account for the future and build it back up.

“You can never have too much money in savings. If you are working to pay off debt it is ok to pause that goal in order to increase your savings.”

Allison’s Money Lesson:

Bobbi Rebell:
What is the lesson for our listeners from the story? When you look back on it, how many years ago was it?

Allison Baggerly:
It was about seven years ago. He's actually lived longer with three legs than he has with four. So it was about seven years ago. And I would say my lesson is that you can never have too much money in savings and that if you're working to pay off debt, it's okay to pause that goal to increase your savings. Even though it's not fun, even though you might not feel like you're making progress, it will be worth it because there will come a time when you are thankful that you have that money set aside even if it feels like it's just sitting there doing nothing.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you know how much? Where is the balance though? A lot of people are always confused about that. What's your opinion?

Allison Baggerly:
My opinion is three to six months of your emergency expenses. Usually if you're going to do something like lose a job, hopefully you'll be able to get a new one within that time. So I teach people to actually calculate how much they would need for an emergency budget. Meaning you do things like cancel Hulu, cancel Apple Music. Those types of things can go in an emergency situation. So it's going to vary per person. But I definitely don't think that even just 1,000 or $2,000 isn't enough because it doesn't cover much anymore

Bobbi Rebell:
Such a good point. But you also point out, well that even like for now in Coronavirus times it's been six months, but yet we are spending less because we're home. So when you're in an emergency situation, you will probably not have the same financial needs as you would have. So you have to make those adjustments.

“I created a tracker and I literally will color in a box every single day that I complete one of my goals. It’s fun for me to see myself visually see myself reaching three small goals that support my bigger money goals.”

Allison’s Money Tip:

Allison Baggerly:
So my everyday money tip is one that I've actually started doing in the coronavirus pandemic. I realized that I was spending so much money online. I don't know if I was maybe processing everything and turning to my emotions. I was stressed and I was stress shopping online, but I realized I was spending so much money on Amazon, it was ridiculous. And so I created basically a tracker to track three money goals. I said, you know what? I need to get back on track with my goals of not spending so much money online and doing different things that helped me financially. And so I created this tracker and I literally will color in a box every single day that I complete one of my goals. And they're so simple.

Allison Baggerly:
One of them is to cook dinner at home, one of them is no online shopping and the other one is exercise. Even though that might not be a money goal, it does help you out financially in years to come. I track those things so that I can build those better habits and just continue to take one step closer every single day to the money goals that I want to achieve.

Bobbi Rebell:
How do you manage it if a day you don't do one of the goals? How do you get back on track?

Allison Baggerly:
I just say, okay, you know what? I didn't do it today. That's okay. This is one day, tomorrow is different. So there are days when I don't cook dinner at home whenever I knew I was planning on doing that. And instead of beating myself up for it, instead of saying like, Oh, I failed, I'll just go ahead and start over in the next month or I'll just wait. I'll just keep failing for the next couple of days. Instead of assigning that to my identity, I just say, okay, this happened, thankfully there's still however many days left in the month where I can turn this around and make progress. And so it's fun for me to actually visually see myself reaching three small goals, which those three small goals, they support my bigger money goals. I know if I do these three small things every day, that they can actually make a difference in my big goals that I have set.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

So many people have been adopting pets during COVID-19, which is amazing, but please make sure you understand the financial commitment before you do so.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

If you aren't ready for the financial and lifestyle commitment, or you're just not sure, consider fostering dogs in need while they are waiting for a permanent home. You can get some welcome company and love during the pandemic and really help a pet in need.

Episode Links:

• Allison’s website - www.inspiredbudget.com

• This Is Awkward podcast

• The post where Allison talks more about her dog, Joey

• Get Allison’s FREE Money Tracker here

Follow Allison!

• Twitter - @inspired_budget

• Facebook - @inspiredbudget

• Instagram - @inspiredbudget

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Kara Goldin returns to the podcast to talk about how she broke (some) rules, got past business FOMO,  and never relied on simple check lists to bring HINT to the success it is today. Her new book, Undaunted, Overcoming Doubts + Doubters is part autobiography, part CEO manual and part therapy session for anyone aspiring to reach their career and life goals. 

“You can do it. You might need to go slower.”

Bobbi Rebell:
You're having fun, but you also had a lot of work along the way. You had a lot of kids along the way. There was a lot happening. Someone says this, like life is happening when you're not paying attention, that kind of thing. I mean, you were paying attention, but your life was happening while you were building this business. And now, I met you only a couple of years ago through a networking group that we're in, and I only know you as the CEO of Hint, which is a brand that I see everywhere. So I didn't know this whole backstory. I mean, tell us a little bit about that and the journey and the idea that so many people see you now and don't know the backstory and your decision to write the book.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, including John. So John Legend is an investor in the company. It was funny. When he read the book, he said, "Okay, what was so fun is that I kept turning the pages, and I said, 'Okay, this is when she shuts the company down,' and then I realized that you haven't shut the company down and you're doing really well, and so you got through all of these crazy times."

Kara Goldin:
I started Hint 15 years ago, no experience in this industry. So my book is called Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters. And really, it's about the journey of building something because I really believe that, especially in today's world, people [inaudible 00:04:07] you don't need a lot of experience to just go out and do things. What you need to do is have permission from yourself to go and try.

Kara Goldin:
The reality is, is that a lot of people who have built companies, including myself, they're smart people, but they didn't have experience. They had curiosity and they were okay with potentially failing. They went out and just did.

Kara Goldin:
And so, it's the story of building Hint, but really more. It's a story of resilience and doing something that I really wanted to do. And you mentioned kids. I started this company when I had four kids under the age of six. I've sort of come out of the tunnel a little bit and happy to say that I really believe being a parent who has worked with these kids and they've seen this amazing business being built, now, I can't even imagine that they won't be entrepreneurs themself because they've just seen that, while this is hard, they could potentially go out and do whatever they want to do if they find a problem to solve and something that they're facing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And it's very much a family business. I mean, you would put them to work, let's be clear.

“There is no checklist. There is a vision and there is a willingness to go and try and a resilience.”

Kara Goldin:
Definitely. Yeah, no, I remember early on that my sales guys in New York, my son went out with one of them and he said he's way harder like if the bottles aren't turned the right way, if the labels aren't turned the right way. And so just little things like that, like I always smile when I think about this because although my dad was kind of a frustrated entrepreneur working inside of a large company, I never really got kind of the hands-on learning that I think my kids have gotten, and understanding what things are important. And also understanding that you can actually go up against big industry and win. You can also be a female CEO and grow a company in a significant way.

Kara Goldin:
So I think all of those lessons are really important, especially for people who are sitting here saying, "Oh my gosh, I can't do this. I've got little kids at home," and they're finding excuses as to why they can't do it. You can do it, you might need to go slower.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that I usually do with authors is I ask authors to put together checklists. You said to me, "No, there's no checklist." Talk about why entrepreneurs shouldn't have these checklists that we all love to have, like five easy ways to make sure your business is a super success. Tie it up with a bow.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I've had people say to me, usually it's kind of wannabe entrepreneurs who really want the one or two or five things that they ultimately need to do in order to start this business. And when I talk to entrepreneurs in every single category, every single industry, it's kind of the same thing. And that's sort of the element of making an incredible entrepreneur is that there was no checklist. And when they go back and they think, "Well, okay, I kind of went left, but then while I was going left, I actually figured out that I should go right because this was working."

Kara Goldin:
And so, most people who are really looking for a checklist probably are not entrepreneurs. And that's okay too. I talk about it in the book that you can join entrepreneurs. Just because you're not going to go start a company, it doesn't mean that you can't go and take on an incredible amount of responsibility within a company. But I think that there is no checklist. There's a vision and there's a willingness to go and try, and a resilience that is definitely apparent.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're in a recession now. Many people's businesses have taken hits that they've never saw coming. You had to guide Hint through the last recession and were asked to make some tough choices and you came out strong and a lot of similar companies did not. What are you doing now to weather this recession that you can share with us and maybe give other entrepreneurs some inspiration for getting through this very challenging business time?

Kara Goldin:
I think the number one thing that I learned from dealing with other difficult business times is really focusing on what is working. And so during a time when people are sitting here almost frozen, right, thinking, "Oh gosh, nothing is working," something has to be working. There has to be one thing that is really working. And so can you figure out how to throw the gas on that and get some traction?

Kara Goldin:
And there's always going to be things along the way that are out of your control, that you really cannot predict when those things will come back, if they'll ever come back. But in the meantime, by focusing on those things that ultimately are working, like for us, it was the direct to consumer business, you're able to not only potentially bring in more revenue to your company, but also, when you have something that is working, it's very motivating, not only for you, but also for your team to say, "Okay, everybody, start working on this because it's really working."

“There has to be one thing that is really working and so can you figure out how to throw the gas on that and get some traction.”

Kara Goldin:
And so I think that that is such a key thing during this time for everybody to be focusing on. Find that thing that's ultimately working.

Bobbi Rebell:
And also, you talk about direct to consumer sales. You really hadn't focused that much on your website and sort of owning your own sales until you dealt with companies like Amazon that would not share their data. I mean, that's an important thing is owning the information to understand your customer.

Kara Goldin:
A hundred percent. It really goes back to the purpose of the company. I didn't start this company because I wanted to run a beverage company. I started it because I actually saw that by making the shift away from diet soda to drinking water that tasted better, I got healthier and my family got healthier. And so I thought, if I can actually get to those people who are trying to do exactly what I was trying to do, then that would ultimately help me to grow my business.

Kara Goldin:
But again, Jeff Bezos, we love Amazon, we still sell through Amazon. For us, amazon is just like another retailer, just like a Whole Foods or Kroger or anybody else that we sell through that ultimately owns their own data. But we wanted the option to be able to communicate and get to know our customer as well. And that's really, especially during a time like COVID where out of stock situations and stores on Amazon as well, and everybody was just trying to keep up, we thought we can just go directly from our warehouse and ship directly to these consumers.

Kara Goldin:
And so that business has almost tripled since March for us. It's been really crazy. And again, because we have that relationship with the consumer. It's not that we are shutting down any of those other relationships, it's just that they're trying to manage not just us, but a lot of other vendors as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
But I think that lesson goes to the heart of everything. Whether it's your business or your life, it's important to have that control.

Kara Goldin:
Totally.

Bobbi Rebell:
And one other final topic I just wanted to touch on. Towards the end of the book, you talk a little bit about FOMO. Because you're in California, you see a lot of entrepreneurs, I'm sorry, not entrepreneurs, you see a lot of people working for big companies and making all this money as employees because of stock options and stuff. This is going on while you, I have this vision of you and your family like hauling these boxes and boxes of Hint water to go to stores yourself. Because a lot of this, you're doing yourself. You're funding it yourself. Talk about FOMO when you're building something, not necessarily even an entrepreneurial venture, but just in life. We tend to look at other people and feel like everyone's having this grand thing and it's so much harder for us.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, I think it really just goes back to knowing your purpose. Yes, you will see people with nicer houses and better clothes from Barneys or whatever. I guess there's not Barneys anymore-

Bobbi Rebell:
Barneys went out of business, so there's a lesson right there.

Kara Goldin:
I've been so busy. I have not really focused on that at the moment, but it's really understanding what your purpose is. And again, just going back to the mission, and that's the most important thing. Because there will always be people who have nicer cars and houses and whatever, but if you're doing something that is meaningful, and I think health is incredibly meaningful to people. I think it's the number one thing that I see everyone focusing on today. Like nobody actually wants to get this disease. Wherever you live, how much money you have, how many stock options you have, everyone wants to stay healthy. And I think having a company that is ultimately focusing on that is something that I've reminded myself every single day is a good thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
It is a good thing. And thank you for all that you do. And by the way, people should understand, it was a natural brand extension to do different flavors of water, to do carbonated water and so on, but then your other brand extensions have not been necessarily about beverages. So even though we think of Hint big picture as a beverage company, you're now into suntan lotion, which you, again, had personal reasons, which people should read the book to find out more about, and then you're in deodorant. And is it antiperspirant or deodorant? Because you actually clarify the difference in the book as well.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah. So it's deodorant, but moving away from antiperspirant because all antiperspirant contains aluminum, which, going back to kind of a family health issue around Alzheimer's that I was grappling with, I saw that we could actually solve a problem for most consumers. Most consumers don't actually understand the difference between deodorant and antiperspirant-

Bobbi Rebell:
I didn't.

Kara Goldin:
Yeah, and why they shouldn't have it until it's too late. The hardest thing for consumers today is even when you shop at the best stores or you see celebrities holding a lot of these products, you just don't ultimately really understand how that could impact your health until it is too late. And so I thought it's my responsibility to actually try to show people what the difference is.

Kara Goldin:
And what I learned really by doing those products too about just the overall mission of the company is it's not just to help consumers, but it's also to help categories and other brands, like suntan category and also the personal care category as a whole. Because I really believe that if we can actually lead and some of these other large brands that are not really doing great for the consumer follows, that's okay too. That to me is incredibly motivating to know that companies were actually following us to actually create products, for example, that don't have oxybenzone in them. Which is true. I mean, we were not seeing products prior to us launching sunscreen that really called attention on the front of the package to say no oxybenzone. That to me is leading in an industry.

Kara Goldin:
Little Hint. That's what's so crazy. And that really is what the impact of what entrepreneurism is. It's not just about starting a company for money, it's actually creating change. And that is what everybody can do. And everybody sees holes in their life that can be solved. And if you really think that you can go and solve those problems, you have an idea, just try and figure it out. It doesn't matter if you don't have experience. And that's really what you're going to hear out of my book and hopefully will motivate people to go and create other companies. That's what we need.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the book is Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters.

Episode Links:

• Kara’s website - www.drinkhint.com

• Kara’s book Undaunted - www.drinkhint.com/FinancialGrownup

Follow Kara + Hint!

• Instagram - @hint

• Facebook - @hint

• Twitter - @hint

• Pinterest - @hintwater

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Entrepreneur Chelsea Brennan’s product sales are surging during the Coronavirus pandemic but the boom has brought some difficult business and ethical decisions. The founder of Smart Money Mamas shares her personal money story, along with how to do a  money fire drill so you and your family are ready for emergencies.

Chelsea’s Money Story:

Chelsea Brennan:
I still think of myself as self-employed, right? This is like my business that serves me in my family, but the reality is it's grown over the past couple of years. We have contractors, numerous contractors, that work for us and we have affiliates promote our product and depend on their affiliate commissions for their business revenue. Our most popular product on our site is called our family emergency binder. It's this product that fills the gap between kind of your general having the right insurance and having a will and what your family would actually need to navigate a crisis.

Chelsea Brennan:
As this whole pandemic started to happen, we saw sales pick up of that, which on one side as a business owner is great, but on the other side it was really emotional for me of, am I profiting off a crisis, am I taking advantage of the situation, even though the product existed long before this all happened. My initial reaction was to discount it significantly to make sure more people got it, but I had to think through was I jeopardizing my ability to support my regular contractors who typically work with me? How is this going to affect my affiliates? How do I communicate this to them in a way that they think this is the right decision?

Chelsea Brennan:
Something that once upon a time when it was just me would have been an easy decision to just slash the price and move on. I had to have a lot more conversations and think more carefully about it for several days before he made the decision.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because we realized that so many of our businesses, even though you think of yourself as a solo entrepreneur, are actually connected to other people and their income if you have suppliers, vendors, and then on the other hand, your clients. It can be a bit complicated. How did it work out?

Chelsea Brennan:
We decided to reduce the binder price by 40% for the remainder of the crisis. We keep setting an end date on it just because it helps optically and people understand what's going on, but we keep extending it through the crisis. It wasn't a very expensive product to start. It was $39. Now it's $23. We talked to our affiliates about the fact that like, listen, this isn't a sexy product. It never has been, right? This isn't something that people want to think about.

Chelsea Brennan:
If we discounted the price, if we made it super accessible, we could get it to more people and get them to take action on it in a time where even people who bought it in the past have a tendency to kind of stick it in the drawer of, "I don't want to fill this out. I don't want to think about it. I know I need it, but I'll deal with it later," whereas we could really encourage them to use this as an opportunity to get prepared. Everyone in our affiliate group completely understood that. They thought it was a great idea. We have been discounting it and find that balance between making sure we're supporting my business and the other businesses that depend on the binder, as well as making sure we're helping the community as well.

“People value things more that they pay for. So I could have made the product free and I think that we would have had fewer people.”

Chelsea’s Money Lesson:

Chelsea Brennan:
I think that if you're a business owner, you have to treat your business as a business. As much as we all have that helper mindset and we want to make sure that everyone has everything they need all the time in our community, first of all, people value things more that they pay for. I could've made the product free and I think that we would have had fewer people filling it out. We're getting lots and lots of emails of people taking action, which is my favorite thing. You have to support yourself and the people that depend on you, your family, your contractors, your employees. Don't feel guilty about having a business through recession, through a downturn because you still have to survive, to keep serving your community.

Bobbi Rebell:
Right. Because if you don't make money and you don't pay your bills, those people are not going to be able to pay their bills. It's important to remember that everything is connected.

“You have to support yourself and the people that depend on you. Your family, your contractors, your employees. So don’t feel guilty about having a business through a recession, through a downturn because you still have to survive. ”

Chelsea’s Money Tip:

Chelsea Brennan:
The family emergency binder came about because my husband is a stay at home dad who is not super involved in the day-to-day of the finances, right? We have regular money conversations, but he's not the one signing into accounts, paying the bills, understanding the investments. I was a little bit worried of if something ever happened to me. We have two young boys. The emotional difficulty for him of having to both deal with any kind of grief and learn a whole new set of skills. One month out of the year, we call it our fire drill month, he takes over all of our finances for the month. I have to step out and be quiet, which is the hardest part, right, is to let him-

Bobbi Rebell:
Does he come to you for help?

Chelsea Brennan:
He does. The way we run it is that he's got to go to the binder first. We're trying to find holes in the binder in the first place of like, okay, where are things that we didn't write down that we should have written down? But he does come and ask questions. The first time was a little bit difficult, right? We had a couple of things that fell through the cracks a bit, but that's natural and now we're in year three and it's gotten a lot easier, right? He knows. When we have money conversations in the other 11 months of the year, he's more involved. He has more buy in, and I feel like it's built a lot of comfort for both of us.

Chelsea Brennan:
My money tip is if you have one partner in a relationship that manages the majority of the finances or if you're equal partner switch, let the typically secondary partner take over and really get some practice in case they ever have to step in because they likely will at some point. Even if it's just a temporary point of an illness or whatever, then they have that comfort that they can do what they need to do.

Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly, or even worse, what could happen is they could just do nothing and that would be even scarier. What about if people sort of share things equally, if they divide and conquer, which a lot of couples do?

Chelsea Brennan:
Yeah. I love the idea of swapping completely, right? Take over the other responsibilities. We see this sometimes with like home maintenance and childcare, right, where one partner is the stay at home parent. We have this in our house except the difference is I'm home also working from home, so I kind of see what's going on, but it's letting the other partner handle what you normally handle, whether that's school routines or packing lunches or managing the auto maintenance, right? It's experiencing what you would have to pick up the slack on if your partner wasn't around.

“We are getting lots and lots of emails of people taking action, which is my favorite thing.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Think about all the financial stakeholders before making a money related decision. For Chelsea, this included not just herself and her family, but also people with whom she had business ties and, of course, our customers. This applies even to our families. You may want to do something with the family's money, but we need to all think about the impact they will have on everyone in our financial ecosystem.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Pay it forward, but also pay yourself. My bet is Chelsea's community will remember that she cut them a break during this tough time, but they will also respect the fact that Chelsea made sure to take care of her own family. That will go a long way towards sustaining her business well beyond this time period and people remember that and they're okay with that. What are you doing that people will remember?

Episode Links:

• Chelsea’s website - smartmoneymamas.com

• Mama’s Talk Money Summit

Follow Chelsea!

• Instagram - @smartmoneymamas

• Twitter - @SmartMoneyMamas

• Facebook - @smartmoneymamas

• Pinterest - @smartmoneymamas

  
  

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

As a young salesman Adam Carroll got a meeting with a big executive that changed everything. But it would not have happened without getting his name right. Adam shares the story, all the good that came from that first meeting, and specific ways to remember people’s names. 

Adam’s Money Story:

Adam Carroll:
one of my very earliest jobs, I was selling suits for a clothier called Tom James, you may be familiar with it. They visit upper level executives in their offices. We had to ring up people every afternoon. We made 80 dials every single afternoon from 4 to 6:00PM.

Bobbi Rebell:
80 calls?

Adam Carroll:
80 calls.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my gosh.

Adam Carroll:
And the goal out of 80 calls was you had to get at least 15 people on the phone and set at least 5 or 6 appointments for the following week. Well, one of the gentlemen on my list was a man named Jim and the last name was H-E-B-E-R-T. And I was young and naive and I kept calling up and asking for Jim Hiebert. They teach you all the different tactics, just ask for Jim, ask for Mr. Hiebert, it's Adam calling for Jim, those kinds of things. And at one point I said, "I'm calling for Jim this is Adam Carroll." And she said, "Mr. Hebert is not in." And I had been calling him Hiebert for months up to that point. And so, finally I went, "Ah, it's Hebert, it's French. I'm going to make sure I say, Jim Hebert next time." And the very next time I called his office and I said, "It's Adam Carroll calling for Jim Hebert is he in?"

Adam Carroll:
They said, "Oh, he is. Yeah, just a moment." So I got on the phone with Jim set an appointment, and then I got in to see him. And this is where the story gets interesting Bobbi. Jim is in this very nondescript office park in Colorado. When you pull up to the building, it's one of those old drab concrete buildings that doesn't look like it's had any work done to it over the past 20 or 30 years. Lots of luxury cars in the parking lot but when I walked in, it had that smell of musty old carpet that had not been changed in again, 20 or 30 years. I walk into the office. There's lots of oil and gas photos all over the wall and I go in to sit with Jim Hebert and he immediately starts asking me questions about myself.

Adam Carroll:
And at the time I was about to get married, so I was engaged. He just completely caught me off guard. He said, "Well, where are you going on your honeymoon?" And I said, "Well, we haven't really firmly decided, but it's likely going to be either Hawaii or Fiji." And Jim asked me, "Have you ever been to The Bahamas?" And I said, "No, I haven't." And he said, "Well, would you like to go?" And at the time Bobbi, I'm thinking, are you asking me to go to the Bahamas with you or asking if my soon to be wife and I would like to go. And he said, "No, no, no, you and your wife could go to the Bahamas. You could take my yacht." Now, keep in mind this is the first time I met him.

Bobbi Rebell:
You just met him?

Adam Carroll:
I just met him and have not even shown him my shirt fabrics or anything because he said, "I'm not a suit wearer but I'll buy some shirts." And so, he's asking me if I want to take his yacht. I said, "Jim, man, I appreciate the offer. I don't even know how to take that." I said, "What is your yacht like?" Any points over at the wall? And he goes, "Well, there's a picture of it right there." And there's this like 75 foot schooner looking yacht. And at that point I was, again, dumbfounded and I said, "Jim, I don't know the first thing about captaining or piloting a yacht, I don't even know what you call it." And he said, "Oh, don't be silly Adam, there's a full-time captain onboard." It was in that moment, Bobbi, that I realized that I have a lot to learn first of all in the business, but a lot to learn from this gentleman.

Adam Carroll:
And he and I became good friends, he invited me to his country club, we had lunch number of times. I never did take him up on his yacht offer because I just thought it was too much. But he was the one who got me started in this process of teaching people about money because he said, "There's a book I want you to read, it's called Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki." So he handed me the book. He said, "When you're done with that, I want you to read the Cashflow Quadrant," and then he handed me that book. And from that point forward, I just started amassing this, as you can see behind me in my office here, just a massive library full of personal finance books. And he really was the one who got me started in the process and it was all because I knew his name.

Bobbi Rebell:
All because you knew his name properly. And why do you think he bonded with you? What was it when you look back? Because this is someone that made a huge difference and does he offer every salesman that comes to use his private yacht with his captain? I mean, why so generous? I mean, now that you got to know him, have you ever said to him, "Hey, we had just met. That was a big thing."

Adam Carroll:
I had that conversation with him and I said, "I really can't accept the offer." I had asked him at one point, "Jim, just out of curiosity, how much does it even cost to put gas in the yacht to get to the Bahamas?" And he was flippant, "I don't know, it's probably $6 or $700, I don't know." But he was nonchalant about it. And so, I don't know that he was that generous with everyone, but in some of our conversations at the country club, he kept telling me, you need to think bigger. Your mindset is as small as it is ever going to be right now and it will only get bigger, so I just want you to pay attention to that. Down the road, Bobbi, I found out that his wife was a PhD in molecular biology.

Adam Carroll:
She had invented a way, a mechanism that a vehicle would run on the inside of an oil tanker and spray this foam that would remove all of the coagulate or whatever that was on the walls of the tanker truck and then they could vacuum out the foam, clean it and use it again. So she was making millions and millions of dollars in royalties on this invention. So it occurred to me that this gentleman who had so much to teach me had also been about 25 or 30 years advanced in his career from where I was. And what I have reflected on looking back is that in the past 20 years, I've also come a long way in my career and I meet with 20 year olds and I give them advice, I don't necessarily have a yacht I can give them, but I give them advice to try and give them a leg up the same way Jim did for me.

Adam’s Money Lesson:

Adam Carroll:
Number one, mentors, find a great money mentor. Number two, we talked about names and the theme behind names. My grandfather was amazing at remembering names. He would run into people he hadn't seen in 20 years and the name was just at the top of his mind. And he told me one time, "Adam, the sweetest sound in the world to another person is their own name." And I have taught college students this and young professionals that your ability to remember people's names is one of the things that will set you apart because most people are like, "Ah, I'm just no good at remembering names, can't remember names. I hope there's a name tag."

Adam’s Money Tip:

Adam Carroll:
Get really, really good at listening intently for someone's name when they introduce themselves to you. Be more concerned about what their name is then you saying your name, because what generally happens is if you and I were meeting for the first time, Bobbi, I'd say, "Hi, what's your name?" You'd say, "Bobbi," I'd say, "My name's Adam." And I'd walk away going, I nailed my name that time. I nailed it. It was two syllables, it was super confident but instead I need to say, "Hi, what's your name?" "My name's Bobbi." "Bobbi, it's so nice to meet you. Bobbi if you don't mind me asking, where are you from?" And then you would answer and I might say Bobbi again somehow, but I'm working it into my own mind, so I will never forget your name. One other quick money tip on names, I see it spelled out over someone's head. So Bobbi, I might say, "How do you spell it? How do you spell your name Bobbi?"

Bobbi Rebell:
B-O-B-B-I.

Adam Carroll:
B-O-B-B-I. So every time I saw you I would see B-O-B-B-I spelled out over your head and I might even say, next time I saw you, "Hey Bobbi, with an I, what's going on?" And some people are endeared by that because if you are meeting a Hallie with an IE or Haley with an EY or it's H-A-I-L-E-Y, people really care about how their name is spelled. My wife's name is Jenn and it's two NN's and it bugs her when people have one N for particularly those who know her well. So there is something about your name and remembering it in my mind will get you business.

Bobbi Rebell:
Very well said. Great advice.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Another way to remember names, association. Adam recommended this to me after we wrapped our interview. And I actually remember I had learned this in college. So this is what you do, whatever the person's name is you think of someone that you know that has that name, a similar name, or maybe someone famous that has that name and then you associate them with that person, it works. Also, using their name frequently in the conversation, yeah, it's a cliche, but it does work. And by the way, I noticed Adam was doing it during our interview.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

I was shocked that Adam had to make 80 calls to sell that high-end clothing, but it is a reminder that this stuff is not easy. And to be successful sometimes it's both a numbers game, as well as being just a little bit better, maybe a lot better in some cases than the competition. Doing things like making sure you personalize each call and know how to pronounce the name, making sure to spell check all your written communication.

Episode Links:

• Adam’s website - www.adamspeaks.com

Follow Adam!

• Twitter - @AdamCarroll

• Facebook - @AdamSpeaks

• YouTube

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Naseema McElroy candidly shares her experiences paying off debt and building a financial foundation, and how that journey allowed her to break free from both a toxic work environment and an abusive relationship. 

Naseema’s Money Story:

Naseema McElroy:
When I started on this journey, I was single. I was a single mom with my daughter, and as I was starting to pay down debt, I did get married. It was a very short marriage because it was abusive. He ended up having to go to jail. And then I had to go through that divorce process. But if I hadn't had my finances in order during that process, it could have dragged out. I could have stayed in that relationship because of financial dependency. And so I thank God that I was already on that journey so I could step away.

Naseema McElroy:
Shortly after that, I transitioned to a different facility for the same organization that I was working for and was experiencing and witnessing a lot of medical malpractice, especially in regards to maternal morbidity, not to the point of mortality, but almost.

Bobbi Rebell:
Can you explain what you mean by that?

Naseema McElroy:
Yeah. In this country, we have higher rates of black women dying and being seriously injured from just giving birth. And it's very prevalent in certain areas. And in this particular hospital I was working with, it was prevalent and I was speaking up against it. That wasn't well accepted or received.

Bobbi Rebell:
What was happening? They weren't getting good medical care? Tell us more about that, because that is something that we don't know about. I want to know more about that.

Naseema McElroy:
Yeah. So it's very common and that's probably why I'm not being as specific as you want because everybody knows this, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
No. Are they not getting the right? I mean, look, we're both moms, are they not getting the right medical care? And why? Is it a cost cutting decision in the hospital? What is going on? What's not happening?

Naseema McElroy:
It's implicit bias. It's just the way that you handle two different patients, right? So I'll give you an example. I have a mom that's in labor. She's trying to have a vaginal delivery after she had a C-section, which has serious implications, has to be monitored carefully. She's telling me that she's having a lot of pain and I'm prepping her to go to the OR. This doesn't feel right, let's go. The attending walks in the room and she's like, "Oh, so you're in pain now? You're in actual pain now because you're actually in labor and this is what you wanted." So instead of doing the C-section right then, she waited hours to do the C-section, went and did the C-section. And then the baby was hanging out of her uterus with both her and her baby could have died.

Naseema McElroy:
So these things were happening over and over again, over a short period of time. And when I spoke up about it, I was basically told to shut up, and I didn't know what I was talking about. And I had been a labor and delivery nurse for years and had never had my judgment questioned. And so I know that that was an environment that I had to leave because I already tried to speak out. But I was at a position financially where I didn't have to have that job, and so I left. And then when I left in the back end, I did some actions in order to make sure that they corrected their mistakes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank God for that. So you had the choice to leave this horrific job environment, which by the way, thank you for speaking up so candidly, and thank you for following up after you left. Because I know that probably many women benefited, families benefited, children benefited from that. In terms of you, because we want to focus on you on this podcast, you had the financial freedom. So tell us the steps that you went through. You had the financial freedom to leave an abusive relationship. And by the way, divorce is never cheap, as we know.

Naseema McElroy:
Even for that short amount of time. Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh, it's almost many divorces last more than marriages. But also leaving so many people are stuck in jobs that they're trapped because they don't have the finances to have the freedom to leave. Tell us, what were you doing specifically, you had $200,000 of student debt and other debt you've alluded to. How did you get control of that so that you could leave both an abusive relationship and a toxic job?

Naseema McElroy:
Well, ironically, I thought it was because I didn't know how to invest my money and that's why I wasn't good with money, and I always thought that investing took like this college degree to learn how to do. And so, I listened to podcasts. I had a long commute and so I Googled investing podcasts and stumbled upon Dave Ramsey, ironically. So I actually started listening to Dave Ramsey and followed his baby steps to start getting out of debt, and that helped me accelerate my debt pay off. And so in just two years, I was able to pay off most of my student loans. Then I was going through my divorce at that time. And then during that divorce, I had to pay, I forgot, $20,000 in debt towards, well, it was basically a car that I had paid off. But anyway, I had to pay my husband, even though it was an abusive relationship, he was in jail. They don't care, so I had to pay him.

Naseema McElroy:
And then, because of the way I was doing and following Dave Ramsey's plan, because I was gung ho, I had a $30,000 IRS debt. So I was almost finished paying off all my debt. And that's just snowballing. I did sell a house in the beginning of the process. That helped accelerate that process, but it was just debt snowballing, zero based budgeting my way. And then finally at the end of it, I had a choice to sell my house and, and people are like, why would you sell your house? I had to really think about this. It's like, a lot of stuff happened in that house, especially with my marriage. And so I was able to walk away from that house pretty easily, even though it was a really nice house. And so I sold my house at the end when I had about $50,000 left in debt and then that cleared out everything.

Naseema McElroy:
And so that's all the debt that I paid off. And so all that stuff took place over a matter of three years. And then at the end of those three years, when I sold my house, I moved, I relocated back to my hometown and that's where I was in that toxic work environment. But at this point I was like, I was on wealth accumulation instead of debt payoff. And so I actually stepped back and only went down to working six days a month. And that was a freedom that I had.

Naseema McElroy:
So financial freedom is not about reaching like this fire number that you might hear out there. It's about the levels of independence that you get to take along the way. And my independence was being able to spend time with my family, be free from this toxic work environment, be out of that bad relationship, be able to recover from all the stuff that happened to me over the years and only work six days a month and still make a pretty good living.

Naseema’s Money Lesson:

Naseema McElroy:
The money lesson is being intentional with your finances unlocks levels of freedom in your life for you to live your life by intention, to be able to walk away from those things.

Naseema’s Money Tip:

Naseema McElroy:
For me, I like nice things. And so I don't skimp on my cars for example. I drive a Tesla. During the whole process of me paying down debt, I took my daughter to Disneyland every other month, but that was super important to me, but it was part of my budget. And so it still fits within whatever financial goals I have, but I don't live in deprivation.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Naseema created choices when she needed them, because she had made the grownup decision ahead of those situations to get control of her finances. Don't wait for the rainy day to have that umbrella handy, guys.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

As Naseema said, Teslas are pricey, but you know what? If you want an electric car, which will allow you of course, to save on gas and be better for the environment, don't forget there are many other electric cars out there to choose from. Happy shopping.

Episode Links:

• Naseema’s website - www.financiallyintentional.com/

Follow Naseema!

• Instagram - @financiallyinte

• Twitter - @financialintent

• Facebook - @nursesonfire

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Getting a PhD was an expensive, and time consuming investment for Elizabeth Segran. So the decision to leave academia did not come lightly. We discuss the season of her life when she came to the realization that it was time to pivot, and the financial grownup moment that clarified what she really wanted to be doing. 

Elizabeth’s Money Story:

Elizabeth Segran:
Absolutely. When I was 25, I took myself to a small village in India called Pondicherry as part of my research. I spent six weeks, the whole summer, walking through this tiny town, learning the language, floating on little boats in the water, exploring the food. And all of this was part of the research that I was doing. And it was one of the most remarkable experiences of my life. But what I'll tell you is that I had very little money in my bank account, and I was spending my 20s gathering all of these experiences, trying to figure out what I really wanted from life, and throughout that process, I wasn't making any money.

Bobbi Rebell:
And how did you feel about it at the time versus how you feel about it now?

Elizabeth Segran:
People often ask me, was it valuable for you to go do a PhD? Especially since, as I explained in my book, I entered the job market in the middle of the great recession. There were no jobs in my field. And so I had to rethink what I wanted to do, and I eventually became a fashion journalist for a business magazine called Fast Company. And I also am now a writer of books. And people are like what were you doing? Did you feel like it was a waste of time? And my answer is always, absolutely not.

Elizabeth Segran:
For those of us who are in our 20s and 30s, millennials and Gen Z, it is far more important for us to find work that aligns with our values, passions, and identity, than to think purely about compensation. And that sets us apart from our parents' generation, who were primarily interested in work that would pay the bills, and that would give us some sort of social status in life. For those of us who are in our 20s and 30s, we know that we're going to be working for 40, 50 years. And we know that that work is going to take so much from us. And so it is so important for us to spend our 20s figuring out what that path is.

Elizabeth Segran:
And for me, that was being in this tiny village in India. I didn't make a lot of money in those years, but I did get a very clear sense of what I value and what I want to be doing with my life. It took being away from the United States, being in this country, spending a lot of time reading and doing all this research about India and my culture and all of these different things that gave me a sense of what I really want to do in life. And so I would not trade that for the world.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to know your opinion then on this pushback we're getting during the coronavirus pandemic. So many colleges are conducting classes virtually, and it's not the same experience for all the obvious reasons, but then there's this idea of what are we really paying for with an education? And the value of that four year traditional bachelor degree and we can extrapolate that to go all the way forward to a PhD when there's now a case being made for people just learning a trade. Is there still value in this whole idea of this extended period of higher education? What do you think about that whole idea that's being discussed now?

Elizabeth Segran:
I'm really sad to hear that many colleges are not just thinking about transitioning to remote learning during this period, but potentially make that part of their coursework going forward. And I'm really sad as well that the higher education is on the brink of collapse, and many people are not going to be able to get PhDs and other degrees going forward.

Elizabeth Segran:
Because there's lots of things that you can learn on the job. For me, I left with my PhD and then I became a journalist. I learned so much while I was practicing the work that I'm doing. And I think that that's true of many jobs. You learn on the job. But what you can't replace in higher that broadening of the mind, reading a lot. I'm spending time with other people asking really difficult questions about what life is about. All of that.

Elizabeth Segran:
It seems so frivolous, especially at a time when the economy is on the brink of collapse, but that is what we need in order to figure out what we want to be as individuals and as a society. It's in those conversations that we figure out what we want the world to be like. If we're closing off the spaces where we can have those conversations, those in-person discussions, the ability to travel to different locations and study abroad and explore other cultures, all of this stuff, if this goes away, I think that we're going to lose something very important.

“There has been this ideal of finding your dream job throughout history but for most of time people didn’t have the ability to actually do that kind of work.”

Elizabeth’s Money Lesson:

Elizabeth Segran:
Here's the main thing that I would like to communicate. I think that we're really lucky because we are among the first generations in the history of mankind who can find work that is an extension of our identity and ourselves. There's been this ideal of finding your dream job throughout history, but for most of time, people didn't have the ability to actually do that kind of work. For most of history, you had to be a farmer because that was the only work available to you. Or you had to learn a trade among a very small number of options that was out there. And even for our parents' generation, this notion was crystallizing, but the data shows that most people were still mostly interested in finding work that paid the bills.

Elizabeth Segran:
That is not true for us. We have the opportunity to find work and pursue work that aligns with who we are. And that is a huge gift. I think our 20s should really be spent trying to figure out what that work is for us and being patient with ourselves and going on these winding journeys to find it.

Elizabeth Segran:
Now, the data shows that 50% of people will eventually find work that is not just merely satisfying to them, but that exceeds their expectations. This is amazing news. Most of us will eventually find work that really makes us happy and really aligns with our identity.

Elizabeth Segran:
Now, the flip side to that is that it is really easy for employers to exploit workers who are working primarily out of a sense of purpose and out of a sense of passion, rather than trying to find good compensation. If we as workers are pursuing our work because we're passionate about it, it's really easy for employer to say that is compensation in itself. We're not going to pay you that much. Or, you're enjoying being part of the culture at this company, as a result, we're going to not compensate you enough. That is the downside to this new philosophy of work. And so the advice that I would give to people is once you figured out your path and you found work that is really engaging and passionate and that you will be able to do for the next 40 years, and it'll keep you happy. Once you've found that, you need to be really cautious about ensuring that you are properly compensated and that you have a good insurance and that you have good benefits because it's really easy to be exploited in this new way that we work.

“It is really easy for employers to exploit workers who are working primarily out of a sense of purpose and out of a sense of passion rather than trying to find good compensation.”

Elizabeth’s Money Tip:

Elizabeth Segran:
When you are considering taking a job, I would really caution you not to get distracted by shiny things that an employer puts in front of you like, "We have unlimited cold brew coffee on tap," or, "We have an amazing foosball table that our employees use," or "We have nap pods." I think it's really easy to get sold that this is a company that really wants to create an amazing culture and make you feel at home and all of that, because what you really need to be focused on is what is the salary that they're paying you? Is it on par with the market? Are you going to negotiate to make sure that you're getting paid appropriately? What is the benefits package like?

Elizabeth Segran:
I think it's really easy for brands to try and convince you that the work that you're so passionate about and the culture of the workplace that you're looking at is more important than your salary. And so you just need to not take the bait.

“It is really easy for brands to try and convince you that the work that you are so passionate about and the culture of the workplace that you are looking at is more important than your salary so you just need to not take the bait.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Elizabeth is adamant that we not allow ourselves to get exploited, and she is so right. But she also makes sure that we know that you have to be deliberate in the industry that you choose to join, because we can only control what we can control, which is our own choices for the most part. We can't change an entire industry's pay scale or the number of jobs that there are in the industry. She learned that pretty quickly about the academic world. You can read more about this in her book, but she goes into her decision to leave academia where only a small fraction of PhDs, and yes, she spent years getting one, actually work their making a grownup salary. Rather than just keep fighting, what is a harsh reality, but is reality, she went into a field that she also loved and where she was able to negotiate the right compensation for the work. And so she is doing something she's passionate about and she is getting paid.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Cut your losses. Whether it's a PhD, a law degree or whatever, if you spent money for an expensive education, the money has gone, regardless. The time has gone, regardless. When we were talking before the interview, I asked Elizabeth how she felt about spending so much time and money on a degree that she wasn't really using. PhDs, honestly, I'm intimidated by the whole idea. It is a lot of time. It is a big chunk of your life. But she still feels it was super valuable. And that education has a lot of value in and of itself. Yes, it is ridiculously too expensive right now, but that kind of education is not the same as a quick online course that teaches you job specific skills.

Episode Links:

• Elizabeth’s website - www.elizabethsegran.com

Follow Elizabeth!

• Instagram - @lizsegran

• Twitter - @LizSegran

• Facebook - @elizabeth.segran

• LinkedIn - @elizabethsegran

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Bethany Bayless wanted to be a financial grownup when she was an 18-year college student. But when she couldn’t get a traditional college student job near campus, she got creative, earned the money she needed for expenses and found a way to give back to the community. Plus Bethany shares her favorite apps to make extra cash.

“There is a limit to how much you can cut back in your budget. You don’t have to limit your income. ”

Bethany's money story

Bethany Bayless:
When I graduated high school, I went off to college and as a grownup, I just turned 18, and I went to a college that was very small, and it was in a town of six other colleges. We were lots and lots of college students.

Bobbi Rebell:
What town?

Bethany Bayless:
It was Spokane, Washington. In Spokane, there's Gonzaga University, Eastern Washington, all these big universities. There were not a lot of jobs for college students there. It was very very saturated. I was very adamant that I wanted to pay my own rent.

Bobbi Rebell:
You are, by the way, one of five children.

Bethany Bayless:
That's correct. I am the only girl also, I just might add. I didn't want to ask my parents for money because I'm an adult, and that's what adults do is you make your own money. You pay your own rent and utilities, and food, and all of those things. What I did find was that I could go to a plasma bank and donate my blood plasma twice a week. That's exactly what I did. I made $240, and my rent was $240, exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
Oh my god. Talk a using your god-given resources, Bethany.

Bethany Bayless:
Exactly. I also think, isn't the house rent supposed to be 25% of your income? It was about 100, and so definitely a lesson learned there. I had to do some other little things here and there. This was before side hustle nation. This was before Uber, before Insta Cart, or something else that I could do to earn money. This was the side hustle app of the age, if you will.

Bethany Bayless:
I just learned very very quickly how much money was worth, and even a quarter was the world to me. It was a chunk right there. It was a great experience because I learned to be frugal. I learned to cut back, and I learned to know exactly what I needed. It was a time that I had zero once.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, I used to give blood plasma a lot. My mother was sick at a point, and that was something that I was a regular there. One thing that I did learn was that they also feed you there, Bethany.

Bethany Bayless:
Yes. Cool.

Bobbi Rebell:
In addition to the money you could get meals, right?

Bethany Bayless:
Yeah. Basically the way the plasma works for people who are not familiar with this process, we will be talking about blood. Just give that disclaimer very quickly. What they do is they hook you up to a machine. They take out a certain amount.
Bobbi Rebell:
It takes a while.

Bethany Bayless:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a process. This isn't just donating blood. This is a different kind of thing.

Bethany Bayless:
Totally different. Because what they do is they put it in a ... It is a word for it. They put it in a machine where it separates it. They spin it really really fast, and it separates the platelets with the white blood cells, with the red blood cells and your hemoglobin, or whatever. Then they give you back your red blood cells.

Bobbi Rebell:
It takes about an hour sometimes. It depends on your blood pressure, believe it or not. Because I had low blood pressure, and sometimes I would not even qualify because you have to be at a certain level, which makes it a very special thing. People really should donate if you do qualify. It's an important thing to do, I should say. You are there for quite a while.

Bethany Bayless:
It is. I would be there sometimes ... Because you had to go in the waiting room first. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Right.

Bethany Bayless:
You have to wait-

Bobbi Rebell:
They set it up for you.

Bethany Bayless:
You have to go through this process. It was a chunk of time, but it was exactly what I needed. I went twice a week. I became friends with Rick, who was the guy who ever single week I would go to him. We became friends. He even had the bedside manner of House, very dry, sarcastic, hated the world, but he called me Sunshine. It was a great experience for me to really do it on my own, to do it myself. I thought, why not. It was the epitome of my desperation pretty much.

Bobbi Rebell:
Also, it is a giving thing to do, and I think it's wonderful that you did that, because even though that wasn't your primary motivation at the time, and I think it's important that people understand that, and that if they are eligible and can do that, it is great to donate plasma.

Bethany Bayless:
Absolutely. Also, I was a universal donor. My blood type is the rarest blood type. I'm AB negative, for anyone who wanted to know. We're finding out so much about each other in this conversation.

Bobbi Rebell:
So much.

Bethany Bayless:
I'm AB negative. It is the universal plasma donor, so anyone could take my plasma.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's wonderful. You didn't mention, what was your favorite snack when you were done? Because they did feed you, so you got food and money.

Bethany Bayless:
Yes, food and money, and I really loved the little cookies. They have little chocolate chip cookies.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yum. Do they have orange juice too?

Bethany Bayless:
Yes, and apple juice, I believe.

Bethany’s money lesson

Bethany Bayless:
The lesson is to do whatever it takes to get by, and to be a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
Within what is legal and what is reasonable. We need to qualify that, Bethany-

Bethany Bayless:
Absolutely. Do anything that was legal. Should I say that again, Bobbi?

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, I don't know that people should, for example, donate a kidney, that kind of thing. I think that things like plasma, and things like that, are good, but not actual body parts.

Bethany Bayless:
A kidney or another controversial-

Bobbi Rebell:
We want to be clear.

Bethany Bayless:
... another controversial is donating things like eggs.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yes.

Bethany Bayless:
That could have set me up for the entire year, but interesting.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's a personal decision. Just be thoughtful about what body parts and things that you give from yourself.

“I could go to a plasma bank and donate my blood plasma twice a week. So that is exactly what I did. I made $240. And my rent was $240 exactly. ”

Bethany's everyday money tip

Bethany Bayless:
Like I said in my story, there was a time when I gave plasma as my last option, it was a time that these apps did not exist. It was not the age of the side hustle, but now I feel like financial grownups have so many options, because you can cut back. There's a limit to how much you can cut back in your budget. There's a limit to how you can limit your expenses.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can only give plasma twice a week.

Bethany Bayless:
You can only give plasma twice a week, but the other thing is that you don't have to limit your income. That is something that there's no limit to the amount of money that you can make. One of the things that you can do is there are a list of apps, things that we've talked about, like Uber or AirBnb, or things like that. Those are already very well known. Other things like Insta Cart, maybe you want to go grocery shopping for people, and you can do it in your spare time. You can pick up times where you just go grocery shopping. It's a great tool to use. I love getting my groceries delivered. If you want to shop [crosstalk 00:10:29].

Bobbi Rebell:
But you can also be the person delivering the groceries.

Bethany Bayless:
Exactly.

Bobbi Rebell:
We want to be clear. For all of these, you're not the person getting in the Uber. You're the one driving the Uber.

Bethany Bayless:
That's absolutely right.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's where the income comes.

Bethany Bayless:
Exactly. We have Insta Cart. We have Etsy. Maybe it's time to make things online. There's also some other really great ones, like Rover. It's a dog-walking app. If you want to go hang out with dogs for a day, why don't you download Rover, and you're able to go. You can even teach your kids about being responsible, and take them along with you now that you're a financial grownup, if you have children. Those are some of my favorite apps that you can use.

Episode Links:

Bethany’s websites TheMoneyMillhouse.com and BethanyBayless.org

Apps we mentioned in the episode:

• Uber

• Aribnb

• Instacart

• Etsy

• Rover

Follow Bethany!

• Instagram - @BethanyBayless

• Facebook - @BethanyGraceK

• Twitter - @BethanyBayless

• LinkedIn - @BethanyGrace

Follow The Money Millhouse!

• Instagram - @TheMoneyMillhouse

• Facebook - @TheMoneyMillhouse

• Pinterest - @TheMoneyMillhouse
  

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

After 300 episodes Bobbi shares some of her hardest times as a financial grownup. 

Bobbi shares the Financial Grownup lessons she’s learned from her failures throughout life and how to put a positive spin on those failures.

Follow Bobbi

• Instagram - @bobbirebell1

• Twitter - @bobbirebell

• Facebook - @bobbirebell

Please rate and review the podcast HERE! Your review helps others, like you, to find the podcast!

Learn how physical therapist Chris Mamula changed his whole financial path after experiencing two major life events. Chris shares the key steps he took to achieve financial independence on his own terms. Plus a money tip that will change how you approach gift giving. 

Chris’ Money Story:

Chris Mamula:
It's kind of funny that I'm on the financial grownup show, because I spent the first decade of my adult life doing everything to avoid being a grownup. The only motivation I had at all for learning about finance was how to escape work. And I wanted to basically be a ski bum or a climbing dirt bag, and that was kind of my motivation in life. My wife and I, we were married right after I got out of grad school. And we didn't think we could have kids, and so we were just looking for a way to escape the normal lifestyle. We were kind of in the process of doing so. We were going to move west in, this was probably 2012. My wife had a job offer in Utah with a company that manufactures ski gear and climbing gear. And it was kind of this dream thing, and I was just going to quit my job and we were going to wing it.

Chris Mamula:
And we had no idea what we were doing financially. And after a decade of thinking we couldn't have kids, we found out she was pregnant. And so that was the first shock. So we decided to kind of stay local where our family was so they could help us raise her and just have some support, and also so we could figure things out financially. And at the same time this was happening, my cousin and one of my favorite people in the world, she was diagnosed with cancer and she had multiple kids. And so we were really involved with helping her and helping her family. She ended up passing away about a month before my daughter was born. And so I just had this confluence of events where the highest of high of having a new child who we didn't think we could have, and this, I don't know how spiritual people are, but I kind of consider it a miracle after a decade of thinking that it wasn't even possible for us.

Chris Mamula:
And at the same time watching my cousin who kind of did everything right and she was in the process of dying, and then, like I said, she actually passed a month before my daughter was born. And it really kind of made me just question everything and say, you only have one shot at life. And I wanted to be there for my daughter and I still wanted to live this dream of pursuing this outdoor passions I had. And so how could I figure out how to just build a different way of life? And that's what kind of drew me into this FIRE community, and we ended up doing that.

Bobbi Rebell:
First of all, I am so sorry for the loss and I can only imagine how painful that must have been. What changes did it inspire in you specifically? I know we can make a blanket statement, it brought you into the FIRE community, which is Financial Independence Retire Early. But what specifically changed because of the birth of your daughter and then the loss of your cousin?

Chris Mamula:
Yeah. Something we worried about in the book is this idea of having an awakening. The gentleman who kind of, his name is Dominic Quartuccio, who discussed this concept when he was on the Choose FI Podcast. But he talked about how a lot of times we're aware of things. We're all aware that eating a terrible diet is bad for us or smoking is bad for us. Awareness though generally doesn't drive people to change their behavior and you need to have this traumatic incidents to have an awakening. And I think for me, that awakening was just stepping back, and these things that I've been avoiding for the first decade of figuring out my finances and figuring out how to design a different way of life, it was always there. It wasn't like it wasn't out there, but I just never went looking for it. I don't think I was dissatisfied enough, I guess.

Chris Mamula:
And then when I saw, I had my daughter, and I had this opportunity and I watched my cousin pass, and it kind of made me just get serious. And so I went out and I started finding this information, like I said, it was there all along, but until I had the awakening to go pursue change and actually take action, I was just kind of drifting through life. And I was following really bad financial advice because I never questioned anything, I just always assumed that it was too hard for me, and you needed an advisor and I couldn't figure this stuff out. And what I found, it was really quite simple once I took the time to sit down and just devote a few hours to it. But I'd wasted a decade and tens of really hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees and taxes by following bad advice because I never took the time to learn and to become a grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you were married at this time. Tell me about your wife's role in all of this. Was she on board right away? Had this been something that previously had caused friction in your marriage, the financial, maybe just not paying attention to your money?

Chris Mamula:
My wife and I, we were kind of always on the same page financially. A lot of people think that to become wealthy you have to come from wealth, and we were definitely not that story. I think our biggest advantage is both of us came from fairly meager backgrounds financially, and so within a year or two of starting my career as a physical therapist, I just kind of became, I guess I would say disenchanted with the American medical system and I knew I wanted out. And so for me, saving and becoming this dirt bag ski bum, it was just a way of a totally different way of life. It was kind of a way of escape.

Chris Mamula:
For my wife, she came from a similar financial background, but her family struggled a bit more than mine. And for her saving was just safety, so we always saved. We lived off one salary and saved the other, so we were always doing well there. We just never took the time to learn the technical parts. And once we did start learning, I mean, we were able to save 10 to $20,000 a year in unnecessary taxes and fees that we had been paying without losing anything of quality. So it definitely didn't cause any friction, we were on the same page there all along.

Bobbi Rebell:
Give me one example of something that you changed after your daughter was born.

Chris Mamula:
When we started investing, really the only option we had when we started was to use a commissions based advisory, meaning they're paid on commissions for selling you products. And so the advice he gave us was to invest with him because he could have quote better options than we had in our 401k plan. So we bypassed that 401k plan. So just in income taxes every year we were saving enough we could have maxed them out, but we left probably $20,000 on the table, if not more. And at a 25% tax bracket, right there if it's 20,000, that's $5,000 in income taxes. And then you're investing it in a taxable account, so there now you're going to start generating taxes on your investments, which would be protected if they were in that account. So now we're talking about extra taxes there.

Chris Mamula:
And then over time, those fees, because of the account adds up, the fees that are charged on the assets in that account start to add up. So again, it was between 10 to 20,000. I actually broke down in a blog post how much we were paying, and it was 10 or $20,000 a year just for bad advice. And it wasn't like we did this one time where we got ripped off. It kind of made sense. The way he talked, it made sense and we bought into it, and we did this for a decade.

Chris’ Money Lesson:

I think the lesson there is, I think a lot of people, they wait for that cancer diagnosis, the divorce, the death, something like that to kind of shock them into making changes. What I want to kind of convey and what we're trying to convey in the book is that you don't have to wait to have disaster strike to have this awakening. If you have this awareness but then you see that there is a different possibility on the other side and you know which steps to take, you can start to make change on your own. And that's really what we encourage people to do and that's the lesson I would like to convey.

Chris’ Money Tip:

Chris Mamula:
Figure out what is that thing that lines up with your values. And so for us, it was travel. Instead of taking the time and the money to buy things for gifts, we really took that time and applied it to scheduling vacations and to plan vacations. We took some big trips. So again, I think a lot of people think FIRE is an extreme lifestyle where you give up everything. On our path to FIRE we've been to Africa, we climbed Kilimanjaro and did a safari. We've been to Australia and dove the Great Barrier Reef. We've been to the Super Bowl. So we've done a lot of things that we valued. We value experiences and we value time together, so we spend our time on those types of things.

Bobbi Rebell:
Basically spend time together instead of just purchasing items?

Chris Mamula:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well said.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

This may sound a little bit harsh. Okay. Well, I am not part of the Financial Independence Retire Early movement, AKA FIRE. I am a big advocate for not spending your life at a job that makes you unhappy just for the money or the prestige. But I do also want to remind everyone that your dream job, which maybe is doing really good things for people that you feel really good about, is actually not a dream job if it doesn't pay you well enough to live the lifestyle you want. And be honest about the lifestyle that you want, my friends. Give yourself permission to take a job for the money within reason. Don't be totally miserable, don't get me wrong here. But if the money gives you the freedom to do the stuff you want to do outside of work, it's called work for a reason guys. That's okay. Work can be a means to an end, meaning get you to the way that you want to live. Things you love to do but don't pay are called hobbies.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

If you're thinking about or a part of the FIRE movement, I admire your ambition and your drive. I don't have it in me to do the kind of sacrifices that so many of you make. But for the millions of people who are struggling just to pay their bills right now as we go through this historically painful recession, please be gentle on yourselves. Not everyone can save 50, 60, or 80% of their salary, even if you read every book on financial independence and do everything you can to adhere to the FIRE approach. Sometimes just making ends meet is pretty amazing too, so cut yourself a break.

Episode Links:

• Chris’ website - www.caniretireyet.com

• Chris’ book Choose FI: Your Blueprint to Financial Independence

Follow Chris!

• Twitter - @caniretire_yet

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

On a very special episode, More Than Me founder Tiffany Smiley shares the story of her husband’s brush with death, his subsequent blindness, and how she became a financial grownup because of it. Plus Tiffany's money tip on how to improve your personal finances during the pandemic.  

Tiffany’s Money Story:

Tiffany Smiley:
At 23, I was a nurse. I was emergency room nurse. Had my bachelor's in Science and Nursing. I loved helping people ever since I was in kindergarten. When they asked, "What do you want to be when you grow up," I wrote, "I want to be a nurse." It just was in me. And so there was no question out of high school, what I was going to go do. And so I went to school to get my bachelor's in Science. Married my high school sweetheart Scotty, who was a military academy grad. And I always joke that it was the picture of the American dream. He was a newly commissioned officer in the military, and I was a nurse, and our new last name was Smiley. You can't get a better last name than that.

Tiffany Smiley:
But it was the picture of the American dream. Until April 6th of 2005, when I received a phone call at 3:00 AM in the morning. And I was excited, because Scotty would call it different times. But this time it was someone else's voice on the other line. And they said, "I'm so sorry, but Scotty has come face to face with a suicide car bomb." He had been deployed in Iraq. "And there are shrapnel in both of his eyes. And I don't even know if he's going to survive." And this strong leader just broke down and started sobbing on the phone to me. So at 23 years old, my world blew up into a million pieces as well on that day.

Tiffany Smiley:
The next day I resigned from my nursing job, and I took my first one-way flight to meet Scotty out at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, DC. And I remember getting there and feeling so overwhelmed, and feeling the weight of the situation. And I remember thinking, "You just resigned from your job. Scotty is about to have no job. He's completely blind. The army doesn't want him anymore. And you're 23-24 years old. What are you going to do? How are you going to get out of this?" And it was in that moment that I realized, we really can create the future that we want. But you have to be willing to work hard for it, and believe in that vision more than anyone else's doubt.

Bobbi Rebell:
And you also had to take charge of all the finances.

Tiffany Smiley:
Exactly. I resigned from my nursing job. I walk into this situation, and all of a sudden I'm in charge of all of my finances, all of our finances, my student loan debt, our car payment, our rental. And I remember the stress of just having to figure it all out. The silver lining of it is that there's always people that can help. And I realized that very quickly, that I needed to reach out and not just hold it so close, and not share it. But say, "Hey, I need help with this. I need help." Ask. The answer is always no, unless you ask. And so I, all of a sudden, became in charge of it all, in charge of our future, in charge of making sure that we could put the puzzle pieces back together.

Tiffany Smiley:
My money story is that I went from a nurse. So I resigned for my nursing job. I realized very quickly, that's not going to be something I'm going to go back to. That my new future is going to take what I learned in nursing, and I'm going to have to create something totally different to fit my lifestyle. And so I refused to sign paperwork to retire my husband from the military. That allowed him to stay on active duty, which was a huge benefit to our family. And as he stayed on active duty, he went on and did some really amazing things. He wrote a book, he skydived, climbed Mount Rainier, he went to Duke and got his MBA.

Tiffany Smiley:
And in the process of writing his book, I said, "You're not just going to write this and have it go away." So I started a speaking business. And I always laugh, because I'm biology and science. And then I remember being on the phone with accountants crying like, "What do you mean you want a spreadsheet, and what are these numbers?" But you really can figure it out along the way. I never, in a million years, would have thought a source of income for our family in a way of paying off our student loans, and finding space to put a down payment on a house would come from a speaking business.

“It really comes down to being the champion of your own life.”

Tiffany’s Money Lesson:

Tiffany Smiley:
It really comes to being the champion of your own life. And in whatever that looks like, whether you're peeling yourself off the ground, like I had to at rock bottom. But saying, "I'm going to champion this life and I'm going to be a self learner. I'm going to dig deep," because the answers are out there. And I learned that, even though it was hard starting that business. I had no idea about the speaking world. But I learned so much along the way. And I'm so glad. I look back now and I think, I'm so glad I did that.

Tiffany Smiley:
I've learned so much from other people. I've learned so much about running a business. And I do love my accountants now. I wouldn't survive without them. But had I not forced myself into that uncomfortable area, I don't think we'd be living in the freedom that we have now. And so I would just say, be the champion of your life, and be as self learner. Because there is so much knowledge out there. And if I can do it, anyone can do it. You can save a lot of money by being a self learner. And to me, you save money and time. And time is money. So I would just encourage whoever's listening to this, to think outside the box, to champion your own life, and go out and be a self learner.

“You’ve got to dive into books. There is so much knowledge in books. Reach out of your comfort zone.”

Tiffany’s Money Tip:

Tiffany Smiley:
I think number one is, you've got to dive into books. There's so much knowledge in books. One that I just read that I love was by Sallie Krawcheck, Own It. So I always feel like I would reach out to spaces that I'm not very comfortable with. Like I would say that's probably not a book I would normally buy, but I wanted to learn, and I want it to be better. And so I think, reach out of your comfort zone, and read some books that maybe scare you a little bit, or you wouldn't normally pick up.

Tiffany Smiley:
Also there's resources. And people. I always say that we are each other's greatest asset. And we need to tap into each other a lot more. Because something you learned could be something you pass on to me, and it helps me in my business. And just like we hosted in More Than Me, we had you come on, Bobbi, for our expert coaching call, and help the women in our coaching call. I think discussing it, not being afraid to discuss hard topics or money topics or finance, that's something that helped me along the way. So I would say, reach out, grab some books, look for extra resources that are out there, whether they're membership groups, or of course your podcasts, Bobbi. There is knowledge, so much knowledge out there for us to get ahold of.

Tiffany Smiley:
And something I always love to do was after I'd read a book, I would discuss it with someone. So I wouldn't just hold it here close to me. I would go to someone, whether it was a mentor or a friend or someone else in business, and I would run the ideas by them, see if they'd heard of them, discuss them, and ask questions that I had in my own life. And I think there's a lot of value to that. It's very simple. But I think it's something we could all do, especially right now.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also have some resources that you can share with people. How can they learn more about what you're doing, and about you and your husband?

“We are each others greatest asset and we need to tap into each other more.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Tiffany advises that we read a book out of our comfort zone, and then talk about it with someone else. I'm going to add to that, and suggest that we reread books we read when we were younger. Our perspectives change so much. Maybe choose something you read in high school, maybe even middle school. I bet you see it a little bit differently.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Tiffany talks about learning from other people. But other people can also learn from you. So if you have someone in your life that you can help out, maybe take them under your wings a little bit, consider the time to help them learn from you.

Episode Links:

• Tiffany’s website - tiffanysmiley.com

• More Than Me

Follow Tiffany!

• Instagram - @tiffanysmiley9 + @morethanmemvmt

• Twitter - @TiffanySmiley9

• Facebook - @TiffanyMaeSmiley + @morethanmemvmt

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

We ask about friends health, travel plans, and romantic relationships. But not about whether they are ok in their financial lives. Rich and Regular’s Kiersten and Julien Saunders share their experiences trying to get their friends to care more, and actually ask more about each others financial well-being, and money security. 

Julien + Kiersten’s Money Story

Kiersten Saunders:
I quit my job about a year and a half before we were planning on me leaving. And it just got to a point where my time was better spent doing something else. I just felt like my days at work were wasted and that I was losing a lot of energy and creative space to do the thing that was bringing me the most joy.

Kiersten Saunders:
So I had started talking to Julien about potentially leaving early, probably six months before I actually built up the courage to do it. And in that process, he kept pushing it back to me like this is a you thing. You need to decide. And so I finally decided, and the first people I told were my parents, and they were just like, "Okay." And then when I told my friends, it was in the context of planning a brunch. They were asking for open dates because I had already trained them, everything had to be calendarized or I'd forget. And in that process I was like, "Oh, it doesn't matter because in three weeks I'm quitting my job and I'll have a ton of free time." No one had any questions. It was just like, "Okay, do we want a Southern brunch or a buffet?"

Kiersten Saunders:
And it was just like, "Oh." No one asked any questions about it. I didn't think that was odd at the time but in hindsight that's a really odd thing because if I said I was pregnant or if I was moving to another state, I feel like there would be more conversation. There would be more followup questions.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, and in the show what struck me is that you talked about if you were talking about the latest diet, they would have probed every little detail. And yet when you talked about this major life change, no one asked you how are you going to have income? What's going on? Tell us more about your business even, right?

Kiersten Saunders:
Yes, exactly. Yeah. I feel like there are certain milestones that we're conditioned to ask about and other ones that we're not, and anything that requires insight into money or finances or how the family is going to survive, I'm using air quotes, but those are the things that people are uncomfortable asking about probably because it feels invasive.

Bobbi Rebell:
What did it make you realize about yourself? Do you feel that you ask? If you were in the other position, looking back, do you ask friends? Do you feel comfortable asking them?

Kiersten Saunders:
That's a great question. I don't think I do. Conversationally I eventually get to be curious in other conversations, but if someone told me, "I quit my job," the first question isn't, "Well, how are you going to make money?" I might ask other questions like, "Oh, what happened?" or, "How did that feel?" I'm more concerned about their psychology then about where the money comes from, the finance part of it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I want to circle back to this in just a few minutes, but I want to get Julien's story. So you were a little bit ahead of the curve from your wife in terms of leaving your corporate life. Tell us about that experience. Was it similar to Kiersten's?

Julien Saunders:
No, actually. I made the decision to quit about 24 hours before I did. I'd been leading the charge. My wife had our first son in 2017 and literally a few weeks after that we launched the blog. It was a project that I just felt really passionate about and we were both doing it, but obviously she was a bit occupied with a newborn, and so it was just something that I launched because I thought that it was important, but slowly but surely it built up, it was gaining legs and I started to learn more about how it could turn into a business. And as I started to really envision what I thought the possibilities were that was bucking up against a time at my job where things were just getting really, really difficult. We had rental properties, the market was doing well, our portfolio was doing well, our business was doing well.

Julien Saunders:
And we had so much wind in ourselves. I really just realized that, you know what, I don't need this. It was really, really stressful. There was just bad times we were going through who knows what version of another type of transformation or reorganization. And so the combination of work stress, dealing with a newborn, I just said, you know what, it's time. If we're going to make a bet on anything, let's make a bet on ourselves. And I'm really, really glad we did that. But to Kiersten's point, when I decided to quit, no one asked any questions. It was like, "Okay." And I presume they just thought that I'd land on my feet, which I think is a fair assessment, but I don't think at the time anyone really understood. In fact, I don't even think I really understood that we'd be working on Rich and Regular full time. We were still... Had one foot in and one foot out. But I think it really speaks to just how taboo talking about money is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Now you're both in this business full time. What kind of conversations, if any, do you have with your friends and family? Do they ask, "How do you guys make money?"

Julien Saunders:
Yes, they do ask those questions, which I think means it's working. What we're doing is forcing people to really look at alternatives and to look inward with respect to how money impacts their lives. And yeah, they're all asking those things and they're blown away when we share the endless list of ways in which you can earn money on the internet. So through us, they are learning about that, and hopefully for those who are able and interested, they might even consider exploring this as a path for themselves.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing that stands out that you guys talk about a lot is the idea of coded language when it comes to money. Can you explain what that is and how it applies to what you guys have gone through in transitioning from corporate jobs to having your own business that a lot of people are curious about, but maybe are hesitant to ask the questions. People use this whole different choice of words.

Julien Saunders:
It's funny because we even catch ourselves doing it every now and then, but I don't know that it's that different from what people do in relationships. And so you use just enough language to make the conversation not seem awkward, but you're not really saying anything. You didn't answer the question, you didn't give the person what they were looking for and you didn't even explore in really what you potentially could have in order to get to the root of the conversation. But yeah, I think there was a moment in the episode where we were talking about how much money you make, and now that I think about it, it almost seems like an SNL skit. But these are very real conversations. It's like, "Well, I'm doing okay." And that doesn't mean... You don't ask how much money you make, but you signal when you say I'm doing okay or we make good money or what was the last one, the upper level?

Kiersten Saunders:
Can't complain.

Julien Saunders:
I can't complain. I can't complain. Things are going well. There's all these things. Same thing in work culture, you get on the elevator with your friends and you ask how they're doing and they say, "Living the dream," and what they really mean is-

Kiersten Saunders:
I'm here.

Julien Saunders:
"I'm here. I'm surviving. I would love to be anywhere but here right now," but they know they can't say that. And so they signal by using this really fluffy language and as funny as it is, I think the problem is, we don't learn that way. We don't really understand how we feel or even respect how other people feel when we continue to use that language. And so we're hoping to inspire better conversations about money by exhibiting it.

Bobbi Rebell:
One of the things that I think is an interesting theme that you bring up is the balance between being transparent to help each other and help your friends and family by being a little more detailed that you joke about six figures can mean really anything, generally good, but it could mean so many different things, but also respecting that there are privacy, there are boundaries that you need to respect as well. So how do you balance that? Especially these conversations about when people probe about your business. In a way it seems like Kiersten you wanted them to ask you more, but yet maybe not too much more, right? How do people navigate that?

Kiersten Saunders:
Yeah. It's one of those things that you have to test and learn, try and see what happens because the answer is going to depend on the relationship that you have with someone and the trust that you've built in that connection, whether or not your boundaries are going to be violated or respected, depends on what you've set the tone with before the money conversation, which is why we stress that money conversations are rarely about money.

Kiersten Saunders:
If you don't have a foundation of trust and respect and love in some circumstances you could end up being hurt by that conversation. It could be something that prevents you from talking about money going forward. So it is this awkward dance that doesn't really have a straight answer, which is why we love video so much because you can see the brow furrow or the frown show up, or the smile disappear or the laugh, there are these nonverbal signals that tell you I'm okay with this conversation, even though to Julien's point, people don't have the words to say, "Yes, let's keep talking." You have to look for the invitation in other ways.

“What we are doing is forcing people to really look at alternatives and to look inward with respect to how money impacts their lives.”

Julien + Kiersten’s Money Lesson

Kiersten Saunders:
I want to say that the lesson without sounding flippant is that people really don't care. Your job, that's not the part of you that they care about. What you do for a living or how you make your money is not the part that people obsess over the way that you may think that they do. It's more around, do you feel confident in your decision? Do you feel good about it? And if that's the case, then I don't have any followup questions for you. And I don't feel the need to pry.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that. Julien?

Julien Saunders:
I, in a very rare moment, I agree with my wife. 100%.

Kiersten Saunders:
Is this recorded?

Julien Saunders:
Yeah. No, I agree. I was nodding my head and saying, "Yeah, I think you're right." Because as I was flipping through several instances, I think she's absolutely right. Most people really don't care. In fact, what they're talking about are the good old days, right? Not your future. They're not worried about your future because they trust you. They love you. They want what's best for you. And they're going to support you however they can. But to her point, we tend to overcomplicate those things because we assign so much value to these other things. And we just make these situations muddier than they need to be. And we're not perfect. We trip over our own words and say hurtful things to each other probably more than necessary or usual, but we're human beings.

Julien Saunders:
And we hope that that shows through in the web series and really any other form of communication that we put out there. And so it's really just to encourage people to say, "Hey, don't be so afraid to make yourself vulnerable." I feel like I'm channeling Renee Brown right now, but it's true. Don't be so afraid to make yourself vulnerable, be honest because really, really beautiful things come out of making yourself vulnerable.

“What you do for a living or how you make your money is not the part that people obsess over the way that you may think that they do.”

Julien + Kiersten’s Money Tip

Kiersten Saunders:
So my everyday money tip is to focus on elevating or leveling up the things that you touch every single day. So for us that is the towels, the sheets, the coffee, the silverware, the things that I touch every single day or interact with every single day, when I really, really enjoy them it's like a little surprise that just extends its way through the day versus it being concentrated in something that I might touch every so often. And so for us, I just upgraded all of our towels and bedding and I enjoy every shower. I enjoy going to sleep every night and waking up and interacting with those things all the time.

Bobbi Rebell:
And Julien noticed right away.

Julien Saunders:
Absolutely. I slept like a baby last night.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the towels.

Julien Saunders:
Yes. I was dryer quicker. I don't know.

Bobbi Rebell:
You know what, we're going to leave it there because I want people to go to your YouTube channel and hear because there's actually a lot more to the story about especially the sheets, but especially the towels. There's a lot of details you guys need to hear about the towels. So we'll leave a link for sure in the show notes to your YouTube channel so people can get the full details.

“Money conversations are rarely about money. It is this awkward dance that doesn’t really have an answer.”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

Ask if you can ask. If you have a friend or a loved one having economic trouble or success, let them know that while you don't want to pry, you'd love to hear more details if they feel comfortable or as much as they feel comfortable sharing. You might be surprised at how much they appreciate your interest.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

A follow up to the Saunders' tip about upgrading your stuff that you use every day and how great that is. Don't forget that when you do that, don't hold onto the old stuff. My family and I have been cleaning out and we realized, for example, that I have two sheets as back from what we use now, just sitting under the bed in a container.

Episode Links:

• Julien + Kiersten’s website richandregular.com

• Trailer for Money on the Table Video

Follow Julien + Kiersten!

• Instagram - @richandregular

• Twitter - @richandregular

• Facebook - @richandregular

• Pinterest - @richandregular

• Julien + Kiersten’s YouTube Channel

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Harlan Landes lost his car, his job, his apartment and his girlfriend all within 6 weeks. But the hard landing became a foundation for building a blog business he would later sell for enough money to be financially independent and start his dream non-profit.

Harlan’s Money Story

Harlan Landes:
One of the things I was interested in was arts management and being part of a nonprofit organization. So that's kind of where my career trajectory went after college. Here's the issue with that though. There's not a lot of money in that, and I came out of college with a fair amount of student loan debt. Not as much as students coming out of college now, that's for sure, but it was a sizable amount. And the role that I had was not a very lucrative role. It turned out that I was spending more money just to go to work, than I was earning, including my small amount of rent, including paying for food and all of my necessities. I just wasn't coming out at the end of the month with more money than I had at the beginning of the month.

Bobbi Rebell:
And had you been taught anything about personal finances before? And when you took out these student loans, were you fully informed? And did you fully understand what you were in for? Did you know the math ahead of time I guess, when you chose this career path?

Harlan Landes:
I knew that I was going to be in debt, and I knew that that was expected when you go to most colleges, and that it would also be expected that you would get a job afterwards and start paying it back. The details though, and the specific numbers, those weren't things that I thought about, or at least it wasn't imprinted into my brain at all. I just knew about these concepts of debt. I knew that I would have to pay it back. I didn't think about, well, what are my household expenses going to be? What do I need to live? What is rent going to look like? What are the groceries going to look like? How am I going to cook for myself? None of this adulting stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. But then, Harlan, ignorance is really bliss, because you're living your life and the debt is slowly building up, but then, this is where it gets interesting.

Harlan Landes:
Yeah. So as I was going and completely ignoring things, ignoring the money, ignoring my responsibilities, moving from one apartment to another. Because of so many speeding tickets I got because my commute was so long, I was on the road a lot. Those speeding tickets were ignored because I had no money. I found out one day, driving to work, got pulled over and my car was impounded because apparently I had all of these speeding tickets that never caught up with me because my address changed so much and I didn't update the DMV. So many things going wrong in my life. And that was just the start of it.

Harlan Landes:
I also lost my job. I also lost my apartment, and I also lost my girlfriend, all within the same six weeks or so. So this was not a good place for me to be in.

Bobbi Rebell:
So what did you do? You actually did something that not a lot of people were doing at the time. What year was this about?

Harlan Landes:
Oh, this was about 2001, 2002. A couple of things happened then. I was lucky enough that my parents, my parents had been recently divorced. My father was still in the area. He had just moved in with his girlfriend, into her house in New Jersey, and they offered their basement up, well she offered her basement up. And so I was able to get settled and get focused, and find a new job that didn't involve needing a car, public transportation, and get started on the right path.

Harlan Landes:
I found some information online just about managing my money, because that was something that I sat down with my dad and we determined that I needed to make a budget. So I started getting really into it and the nerdy way that I would. And I started writing online. I started a blog. Now I had written blogs before. I had been writing on the internet since basically 1994. So I had a lot of experience writing online, and I decided to write a blog just to focus on what I was learning about when it comes to managing my own money, about investing, about saving money, about using banks and using credit cards and doing all this the right way to help myself, rather than put myself in a worse position. Finally, I was starting to look at my numbers and figure out what I could do to make them better every month. And it became a daily thing.

Harlan Landes:
I started off this blog called Consumers and Commentary, and the first post was basically a banking statement. I showed all of my balances in all of my accounts, all of my debt and just laid it all out there. And I did this anonymously and said, "I'm going to do this update every month. I'm going to post here about different articles and things that I'm learning about money." Really, I was doing it just for myself. I didn't really expect people to read along. Most of the time, people who wrote blogs would just do it for their own journaling purposes and didn't care if they had an audience. Some didn't even have comments, didn't build communities. But at the time I just wanted to focus on how am I going to get better. If anyone wants to read this and join me on this journey, you're welcome to, but I'm going to lay it out, I'm going to do it anonymously, but you're going to know everything about my finances and we're going to figure all this out together.

Harlan Landes:
And then, the recession hit. Suddenly, everybody was looking online for great information about how to save money, how to invest. All of this information started getting really, really popular. Blogs started getting a lot of new readers. Newspapers, with their websites, started looking at the financial blogs as a model, even for their own columns that they would publish online. And it just created this great relationship between bloggers, even some podcasters at the time, and the more traditional media. So it was a great time to be out there and be a part of all this building of financial content that would go on to help so many thousands and thousands of people.

Bobbi Rebell:
But it also became a self-fulfilling thing because your efforts to get yourself out of debt and create your own financial security, actually, that blog, you were able to sell it eventually. Tell us what happened.

Harlan Landes:
Sure. So probably a year, maybe a year and a half into having the site, I decided to put some ads on the website. There were not a lot of ads on blogs before that. And around that time, I was like, "Well, maybe I can put AdSense on my blog," these automated ads, maybe it'll make some money that will cover the cost of hosting the website and give me some satisfaction for the eight hours a day I was putting into writing content for the website, in addition to my eight hours a day at my day job. And it didn't take too long for this to build up. Of course, like I mentioned, people became a lot more interested in what was going on with people writing about money through the recession, companies, advertisers, started getting a lot more interested in getting in front of all of those readers around the same time. So the revenue potential for the website grew pretty quickly.

Harlan Landes:
And I was able to grow that to a point. And I was also looking at the landscape when it comes to earning money online through blogs, when it came to working with different advertisers. And I saw that there was some risk around 2010, 2011, and I became interested in offloading some of that risk by taking advantage of the success that we had through the website and seeing if there would be any potential buyers. And there were several, and I was able to sell the website and that was after it was making, it was earning a significant amount of income for me. I was able to quit my day job. And it became such a source of income that I figured if there's any way for me to offload this risk, it would be best for me at that time. So that's why I sold it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Interesting. And what was your plan at the time when you sold it? Were you going to retire? Did you always want to create some kind of a nonprofit?

Harlan Landes:
My mom had asked me when I was, I don't know, maybe a teenager or a preteen or something, she said, "What would you do if you had a million dollars?" And I said, "Well, I'd start an arts foundation." That's kind of what I said. I probably didn't even know what I was thinking or know what I was talking about at the time. But I was like, I want to support the arts. I've always been a supporter of the arts. And I worked in a music nonprofit after graduation in college and I'm back doing that now as well. But instead of starting an arts foundation or a music foundation, I decided to take what I had been doing the past decade or so, and turn it into a way to support the community that I helped build.

Harlan Landes:
That is why I took the Plutus Awards and turned that into a part of the foundation, the Plutus Foundation. Now I'm doing kind of what I said I would when I was thinking about what I'd do if I had the right amount of resources. It's a little shifted, although I am also spending a lot of my time back in the music field, working with a drum and bugle corps that tours the country in the summer, when there isn't a pandemic, anyway. So I'm doing everything I always wanted to do and I feel really happy about that.

Harlan’s Money Lesson

The lesson that I have is, well first of all, people talk bad about passions these days and they say, "Well, yeah, it would be great to follow your passion, but your passion has to be marketable." I was able to make things work. I got really invested into the whole idea of sharing my stories about money and my money issues. And I was so passionate about it and I made other people passionate about it, and I found a way to make that work. Even though when I started the website, it was never about money. That wasn't even a factor. But like you said, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. It became the solution, or at least part of the solution, to my need to at least support myself. So that was good. So yeah, that's an interesting lesson that I like to share that's a little different than everyone else.

Harlan’s Money Tip

Harlan Landes:
What I would love for people to do is to talk out loud. I was able to write about my financial details, and I shared it anonymously just to make it so that I was more protected in case I wanted to ever look for a job again. My salary numbers, I don't want prospective employers to find out some details about my life so I kept that anonymous at least to start. I was as transparent as I could possibly be, sharing my income numbers, sharing my debt numbers, sharing my account balances. And sharing the truth about the decisions that I make every day, not being afraid to be vulnerable. All of these things can help you so much. We don't have to hide behind our numbers, and we don't have to shy away from this idea of talking about money. The more you talk about your situation, and that can be just talking to people in your life, or putting it out there online for the world to see and for you to be absolutely a hundred percent vulnerable, that will not-

Bobbi Rebell:
And you can be anonymous. You can still be anonymous if you choose. You can do an anonymous blog.

Harlan Landes:
Absolutely. You can be totally anonymous. You can put your name out there, whatever you want to do, whatever you're most comfortable with. It's just more about the stories and the truth, and letting people know that they're not alone in their situation. And that is so important because we all look at ourselves, we see that there's no one like us in the world. Of course, every one of us is unique. Our situation is unique. But there are so many things that we have in common, and if more people would talk about it, then it would be so much easier for everyone to feel less alone. And they can see that there are other people who have gotten through whatever issues they have, or are in the process of getting through it, and we can all join together as a team and solve some of those problems for ourselves. And we can solve issues in the world as we come together as well.

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

It is okay, in fact it is more than okay to take a step back. Harlan had a lot coming at him all at once. He went to live with his family as an adult, to deal with it. I, by the way, did that myself at age 30 when I was having a really hard time in life. Cut yourself a break. Don't be afraid to lean on those who love you for support when you need it. Just make sure to say thank you.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

Well, Harlan was very public about his financial journey. He also maintained his privacy by writing anonymously on the blog. Sharing doesn't mean revealing personal financial details that can invite trouble. Just be deliberate and thoughtful in what you make public.

Episode Links:

• Harlan’s website - www.plutusfoundation.org

Follow Harlan!

• Instagram - @plutusawards/

• Twitter - @PlutusAwards

• Facebook - @plutusfoundation/

• YouTube

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

Finepoint CEO Meredith Fineman, author of the new book “Brag Better” shares why learning the right way to brag about yourself is essential to reaching your goals. Then walks us through 10 ways to brag better including how to integrate super power words, avoiding qualifiers, using nightmare questions and how to prepare ahead of time to get the best results. 

10 WAYS TO BRAG BETTER

• Make a list- because facts are facts

• Use super power words

• Consistency as a baseline for success

• Avoid verbal undercutting ex: qualifiers

• Be loud- even if you have to write it down beforehand

• Understand the different between being direct vs being blunt or confrontational

• Avoid intentional invisibility 

• Tap into 4 key elements of a brag: Gratitude, Pride, Presentation + Showmanship

• Consider your audience

• Use a nightmare question

Episode Links:

• Meredith’s website - www.meredithfineman.com

• Meredith’s book Brag Better

Follow Meredith!

• Instagram - @meredithfineman

• Twitter - @MeredithFineman

• LinkedIn - @meredithfineman

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

---

Transcription

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey friends. So does the idea of bragging about yourself make you a little bit cringy, maybe a lot cringy? Now with all of us at home, or at least most of us at home, it can feel even more awkward, but our guest today says we have to do it. We have to make it happen. She is going to tell us the right way to do it and most importantly, a way to do it, that we're going to feel good about.

Bobbi Rebell:
First, a quick welcome to everyone to the Financial Grownup podcast. We have been doing a series of Financial Grownup guide episodes during the Coronavirus quarantine, and this one I think really hits home for all of us who are still at home. The advice offered by our guest author, Meredith Fineman, in her new book, Brag Better, was a total eye-opener to me and probably will be to many of you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Although they are easy to implement, they're not things that we necessarily are doing or know about, so it's a really great tutorial on getting comfortable with bragging. I've been putting a lot of her tips to work already and seeing results. Here is Meredith Fineman.

Bobbi Rebell:
Meredith Fineman, I'm so happy you're here and congratulations on your new book.

Meredith Fineman:
Thank you. I'm very happy to be here. And I wrote a book, I did it and it's done. It's out there.

Bobbi Rebell:
And now you get to talk about it and brag better because the book is actually called Brag Better. Tell us about it.

Meredith Fineman:
I really set myself up in this case because I wrote a book about talking about your work, so by proxy, I'm really just going to have to talk until I'm blue in the face to anyone that will listen, which I already do, but it's going to have to be a little bit more extreme.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you are the queen of the best kind of what I would call self-promotion, but you do it in a way that works. And you've actually been coaching me behind the scenes even before we hit record here.

Bobbi Rebell:
So first of all, I have a to-do list already of things that I need to be working on. You brought for the Financial Grownup community, 10 Ways to Brag Better which of course is as I said, the name of your book, let's start with the first one. And then by the way, everyone hang on to the end because you have a special gift for the audience when we get to the end.

Bobbi Rebell:
The first of 10 ways to Brag Better though is to make a list because facts are facts. Why is that important to remember? Facts are facts.

Meredith Fineman:
Bragging is stating facts. I mean, if you've done the work, why not talk about it? You're not lying about it. So take a pen, do it on your phone, do it on a Google document, send yourself an email of 10 things that you've achieved, no matter how small you might think they are. So a big thing would be like, "I got this award in my industry." But even if it's like, "I killed this presentation or I did really well in this meeting or I pitched someone to be on my podcast that I was afraid to talk to." All of those things are wins and they're true and they're facts, so bragging is stating facts.

Meredith Fineman:
There are lots of different ways to insert it into whatever it is you're doing. You open up your social media and you're like, "I snagged an interview with Meredith Fineman and I'm so excited." Because also I would want to promote that and then there you have cross promotion. So that's a nice thing someone would say to me on the internet, the idea that someone would think that booking me is a big deal, feels really nice. So then I would retweet that or I would reply and say, "I'm so excited to go on." And people might see that and you make another guest out of it, it's just sharing.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Number two, use super power words.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes. So super power words are words to describe your voice and your tone and your brags. But super power words are words that feel like you and feel like how you want to be perceived. So mine-

Bobbi Rebell:
So what are your super powers?

Meredith Fineman:
Yes, mine are funny, thoughtful and helpful. I always love making people laugh and making sure this isn't so boring and feels so much work, and thoughtful, that I've taken almost a decade, developing this concept and thinking about how I want to share it.

Meredith Fineman:
And then helpful helping people brag better. And in this case, those three things are words I think back to, whenever I think about sharing something or doing an interview or writing something.

Bobbi Rebell:
And one of the things that I loved about the book is you then have, I was trying to think of the words for myself and I was drawing a blank. I turned the page and you had a whole list of words that I could kind of circle which ones I thought applied to me. And you also give people permission to change those words as you go through life.

Bobbi Rebell:
So I thought of supportive. I try to be supportive of not just my friends, but also peers in the business. Polished because I always try to appear polished and be polished for my clients and anyone that I interact with in business, and also professional, which is also very important in this time we're in with this quarantine is to remain professional when you are working. So those are mine right now that I pulled from your list, but they can change.

Meredith Fineman:
And you don't have to be married to them. I've gone through lots of different 'voices' in terms of how I've written or the work that I've done. And it will probably also change, but it's grounding to just at least narrow it down to three things. And there is a list in the book of all different adjectives that you can use that hopefully will help you focus the way you talk about yourself.

Bobbi Rebell:
Next thing. Number three, consistency as a baseline for success. Tell me more about that.

Meredith Fineman:
I'm a PR person. This book stems from basically using the habits of publicists, pitching, packaging, getting what you want only by asking without exchanging money, earned media, that's what earned media is.

Meredith Fineman:
This idea of breaking through the noise and that is just absolute consistency of message. You have to tell people what you're going to tell them, you have to tell it to them, you tell them what you're going to told them. It's a journalism adage that I traced back to a preacher in the 19th century.

Meredith Fineman:
But basically, you just have to hit people over the head with your message because you have to be incredibly consistent with it. We all walk around in our own heads with what we've done and many people will come up to me and talk to me about work I did a decade ago and have no idea that I work on bragging. It's wild to me and I cannot believe that.

Meredith Fineman:
And it's just drills home that you have to consistently tell people what you're up to because every single audience is different. You might feel like you're talking about it all the time, you might feel like you're sharing it all the time on social media, but the shelf life of a tweet is an hour. Every single time, different eyeballs are on something or you're in a different group of people. It's never, ever, ever the exact same audience.

Meredith Fineman:
And that consistency also builds up online for someone to be able to tell who you are and what you want in 30 seconds or under, otherwise they're going to move on.

Bobbi Rebell:
The next thing is something that I do that you are helping me get over and it is avoid verbal undercutting. For example, qualifiers.

Meredith Fineman:
Yeah. So shooting down your message before someone else can, whether it's, "I hate to brag, but, or, Oh yeah, I've just got to plug this." Just do it. You don't have to tell people you're doing it. And the problem is when you tell people you're doing it, it highlights your insecurities or fears or anxieties and that translates to the person that you're talking to or writing to or speaking to.

Meredith Fineman:
So what it tells me immediately, and that anxiety transfers to me, because I'm like, well, that person feels weird about sharing this thing, so then I feel weird about sharing this thing, and instead of it being an opportunity for me to share something for you or not even share, also revel in that joy of doing something with you instead, it actually isolates you and drive someone away, but also doesn't allow them to help you.

Bobbi Rebell:
Excellent point. The next thing is be loud, and one of the tips you give people, if they're not sure how to do this is to write things down beforehand, so they can feel more prepared.

Meredith Fineman:
Yeah. Everyone's always like, "I don't want to have my notes with me. People might think that X, Y, and Z." And I'm just like, "You only look more prepared." And I bring note cards up on stages, I give tons of speeches. It makes me feel better, it makes me a better speaker, and I felt bad about it for a while, but then I realized I'm never like watching a speaker and if they have note cards being like, "Man, they have note cards." Nobody cares.

Meredith Fineman:
First of all, nobody cares. But second of all, even I've coached people to bring their questions written down on a piece of paper to a meeting. People don't know what's on that. They can't see it, it just looks like you have your work together and that you know what you're going to say. And even for extremely powerful people, I've written out verbatim like, "Hi, my name is so and so." Sometimes you need that, and you probably don't need it, but if it makes you feel better, go for it.

Bobbi Rebell:
I find that what I do whenever I'm giving a speech, I take a copy of the script and I actually put it underneath the seat that I'm going to be sitting in. I have never once used it Meredith, but knowing it's there gives me so much confidence that if whatever things go down, if the teleprompter goes down or I lose my phone connection, if I have some notes in my phone, there's always a physical hard copy, literally under the seat cushion for me. If I needed it, and it's just, it's really a psychological thing.

Bobbi Rebell:
And the next one's kind of a followup to this and that's about understanding the difference between being direct versus being blunt and confrontational. It's okay to be direct, it's good to be direct.

Meredith Fineman:
We're recording some quarantine right now, but directness and being explicit is so important because we can't physically be together. We'll see, whether or not that's the case. And I mean, either way, it will transform the way we work and think about the future. And there are so many different virtual tools that will continue.

Meredith Fineman:
So yes, there's nothing wrong with being direct. For women, it often can be perceived as angry or rude or nasty and those are just gendered sexist layers. But of course you're not necessarily prime to be able to be direct, but it honestly just gives everyone a lot of time once you start doing it.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. Number seven, tap into four key elements of brag. So I kind of wrap these into one. Gratitude, pride, presentation, and showmanship.

Meredith Fineman:
So in constructing a brag, which is sharing an accomplishment, sharing a fact, that's all it is. It just happens to have this word on it, which is the only word we have, which is why I use this word, in addition to it also getting people's attention.

Meredith Fineman:
So when I think about what makes a good share, let's call it. There are elements that can make you feel more comfortable. So there, we talked a little bit earlier about verbal undercutting. There are things to go for instead of shooting yourself down, and those things are gratitude, pride, presentation, and showmanship.

Meredith Fineman:
So let's say that I gave a talk that I'm proud of. Gratitude. "I was so honored to be a part of this panel, you would love it if you took a look at this video." Pride, "So thrilled to have been on this panel, like I can't believe I was asked to do it. And I'm so excited about it." Presentation, "Check out this panel I was a part of, I clipped it down to two minutes."

Meredith Fineman:
For Instagram one minute, I think they'll allow you. So the thing about how you present something in a way that's your reader or watcher, listener, audience can digest it.

Meredith Fineman:
Showmanship, is adding flare, adding personality, adding spice. If we're still sticking to an Instagram video, "Like check out this talk I gave. Like here's one minute where I thought I did a slam dunk. Hopefully you agree." And something else punchy, that's totally up to you. That's totally style contingent.

Bobbi Rebell:
Those are all very deliberate and things that you can think about and really put your best foot forward.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Number eight, consider your audience.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes. You got to work backwards. What do you want? What kind of visibility do you want? And when I say visibility, that might mean recognition from your boss, that might mean recognition in money. That might mean a raise, that might mean fundraising. That might mean recognition on television. Those can mean all different things, but if you are someone who wants to be on TV, more, having a popular podcast isn't going to help a TV booker want to book you because they care about what you look like and how you appear on television, if you've done it before and what your talking points are, a completely different medium.

Meredith Fineman:
So you need to be doing video, you need to make it abundantly clear that you want to be on TV. If you've been on TV before you need to list those links, you need to make a reel. You need to have up to date headshots and show that you can do that really well, so that a booker will potentially take a chance on you.

Meredith Fineman:
So where does your audience live? That's an extreme example. But thinking about-

Bobbi Rebell:
But you've been doing that with the book, even now. You've been actually demonstrating that in your plan to promote your book.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes, and reaching out to everyone I've ever known, but yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
But you're also being very thoughtful to reach out maybe in the strongest way to people that would be the most supportive of the book and then have the audiences that are going to be most interested in the book.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes. And in thinking about promoting Brag Better, there's a lot of different prongs to this approach. It's about people that love me and care about also elevating my voice. A huge part of Brag Better is bragging for others and passing that microphone. It's not just about you at all.

Meredith Fineman:
So my asking people to promote me is actually pretty scary, since I'm the one always doing all the promotion myself. Also, thinking about outlets where this would really apply and where this would really add to people's experiences versus just sell books or get eyeballs. That's good too, but I care about impact.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. The next one is for people that kind of get a little scared sometimes, and that is to use a nightmare question.

Meredith Fineman:
So I go into this in depth in the book, but the nightmare question is, I do this with every client that I counsel and ask them, "What is the absolute worst thing a conference organizer, journalist, booker, recruiter could say to you or ask you? Like what is something so off the walls, but it's basically just encapsulates your anxieties."

Meredith Fineman:
Let's try in this case. It's like, "Have you ever considered that this book is a piece of abject garbage and nobody will read it. And it's not necessary, and you just sort of made a fool of yourself."

Meredith Fineman:
Now that's deranged. First of all, nobody's ever going to ask me that and then you cook up an answer for it. And I say, "Well, no, actually I'm really proud of this book. I worked really hard on it. I do think it's needed. I do think there's an audience for it. And I'm not really open to your judgments at this time."

Meredith Fineman:
Now, I still feel those scary feelings of inadequacy and putting out a piece of art into the world and what people are going to say. It's a really scary thing to do. But that idea of a nightmare question is just something that nobody's ever going to ask you.

Meredith Fineman:
But what is that one deep dark thing you torture yourself with at three o'clock in the morning and bringing it into the light and answering it and having a canned answer. But if anyone asks you your nightmare question ever, I'll be like, "I'll give you a refund." Which I can't legally do, but I'll try.

Bobbi Rebell:
You'll figure out a way. And speaking of what you're going to give to your readers. Number 10 is actually working from home and bragging better. And you have a special something coming out for that.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes. Who could have predicted, I mean, virologists or epidemiologists or scientists could have predicted coronavirus, but I mean, publishing and putting out a book in this time is pretty wild. And I realized very, very quickly that I needed to write an extra chapter about bragging better from home and bragging better online, because we can't get in front of people, and that is a huge part of bragging and a huge part of business.

Meredith Fineman:
And so many different industries are impacted in job search, and there's just so much going on. So it didn't make it into the book, but bragging better from home and online will be released to the public in the coming weeks. And I'm also recording an audio version, so you can listen to it too, if you're taking a quarantine walk, because it has to be said.

Bobbi Rebell:
What is your number one tip from there? Give us a sneak peek.

Meredith Fineman:
I'll give a tip, but first acknowledging everybody's having to shift everything and there are a lot of conversations about whether or not, I mean, you can do nothing in this time, but I personally feel empowered by productivity and empowered by being given things to do that will make an impact.

Meredith Fineman:
I would say the tip is now is not the time to necessarily break through with your message, but it is a time where the world feels like it's on pause in a lot of different ways, and it's a really great time and I don't know if we will ever get time like this again. And for some people, I have the luxury of time, that's a privilege and if you're not an essential worker and et cetera, et cetera, now is a really great time to take stock of what you are putting out, to take a second and think about starting a personal website, to take a second and look at your email signature, because we don't normally have time to do those things and it is an overall reflective time.

Bobbi Rebell:
Great advice. Tell us where people can find out more about you. We know the book is going to be everywhere and they can order it online and all the places.

Meredith Fineman:
Yes, it will.

Bobbi Rebell:
Where can people find out more about you and all of your different, your business, your book, your podcast, all the things, Meredith.

Meredith Fineman:
All the things that I love doing and stuff. You can find me online at meredithfineman.com. That has links, everything about the book. The book has its own website, brag-better.com. Please for the love of God buy this book, so that I can continue to wear designer discount resale clothing.

Meredith Fineman:
You can buy the book from, the big guy or small indie shops. I have a podcast called It Never Gets Old, ingopodcast.com and all those different things on all the social media is at MeredithFineman, but I would say my Instagram is where I spend a lot of my time, which is just at MeredithFineman, where all my good memes are.

Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you so much.

Meredith Fineman:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
So cool that Meredith added that extra chapter about working from home and how to brag better in this new situation we're all in.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're going to leave a link to it in the show notes, so you guys can all download it for free. I got an early copy by the way of the book and it is the perfect read to get re-motivated as we move into what I hope is a reopening phase of the pandemic. Let me know how you brag better. DM me on Instagram at BobbiRebell1 and on Twitter at BobbiRebel.

Bobbi Rebell:
Get on my grownup list. It is free, I would love to have you. We share lots of tips about how to live a grownup life. Go to my website, Bobbirebel.com to do that.

Mekanism CEO Jason Harris has always prioritized face to face human interaction. But since that’s not an option, he has found specific ways to re-create that experience online, and is getting results. Jason shares them, along with how strategies from his bestselling book The Soulful Art of Persuasion can be adapted to the evolving work from home culture. 

Bobbi Rebell:
Let's get into some of your strategies from The Soulful Art of Persuasion, and how we can apply them to what so many of us are experiencing right now. Now, you break it down into four areas. The first one, you really like to talk about being original. How does that apply to what's going on now, and how can people leverage that concept?

Jason Harris:
Yeah. So I think that this concept applies in a pandemic, in a shelter-in-place, or not. But the idea of being original is really about showing some psychic skin, being vulnerable, being yourself, not doing the typical sales beliefs that you typically hear, which is mirror and matching your audience, or trying to find common interests to make them like you so that you build a relationship, so you can create a transaction.

Jason Harris:
It's really about being strong enough to be vulnerable and putting yourself out there so that somebody learns your idiosyncrasies and what makes you tick, so that they will do the same and share with you. That creates a bond. So it goes against conventional selling wisdom of mirror and matching your audience, and it's really about leaning into who you are and being yourself. So that's really fundamental to persuasion.

Bobbi Rebell:
So can you give us an example of how that would be applied in this environment?

Jason Harris:
So how it might be applied in this environment is really trying to think of telling the story. So when you might be on a Zoom or Skype, or what have you, with a new client, or an existing client that you have a relationship with, try to think of telling a story, an original story about your experience. It could be good or bad, it could be something good that happened, it could be a challenge that you had to overcome.

Jason Harris:
Try to avoid just doing the typical, "Yeah, it's hard. I can't wait to when we get back. Nobody knows anything. What do you think of Fauci?" Really try to relay a personal experience or an antidote that will get the other person, over video, to open up to you and create more of a collaboration or a bond. But that takes preparation and thinking through a story that you want to talk about versus just hopping on and saying, "How are you? I'm fine." So that's one way you can do it.

Bobbi Rebell:
So you'd have to build in the time for that and maybe have something prepared, like a funny anecdote prepared, something you did with your kids or something going on somewhere else that's interesting.

Jason Harris:
Yeah, exactly. For an example, I tell a story, my kids are in California and I'm in New York during this. I might get on and say, "It's been hard FaceTiming with my kids and we needed to create something, so we do an hour a day and we're writing a children's book together. We go around and each session ... I have two boys. One of us leads the story and we're writing the story that way, and that's a way for us to bond because I'm missing my kids and I'm missing an experience. So I'm creating an experience through this with them." And so that might be a story that I would tell that someone would remember, and then they might share an interesting story or some hard thing that they're going through and how they're getting through it.

Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing that you talk about is generosity, being generous. Can you talk about how that applies, maybe with like online etiquette and how we behave online?

Jason Harris:
Sure. So generosity, the basic ... That's principle number two, and the basic principle there is giving something away without expecting anything in return. And that can be advice, it could be stuff, it can be your time, it could be an article that you found. One way I do this during this time, is instead of thinking of broadcasting ... You might post something on Instagram or one of your social platforms, and broadcasting it out to all of your followers at once with something that you're saying. What I try to do during this time, is think about people that I'm trying to connect with. It could be personal, it could be professional, it could be past clients, clients I'm trying to attract. I think of an interesting article that I found online that I can email or text them directly, that would apply to them, instead of just putting myself out there to all the followers and not making it a one-to-one connection.

Jason Harris:
So during this time I'm thinking of one-to-one connections that make people when they might have anxiety, or they're at home, or they're bored, know that I'm thinking about them. I do that simply through an email or a text. Something that I know is of interest to them, I'll send them a thought. Or I'll do a little search on, if my client is in the dating app business, I might find an interesting survey and text it to them, even though we're not necessarily talking about work. And it just says, "Hey, I'm thinking about you." So that's one way I apply ... That's, to me, an act of generosity, because you're creating a one-to-one connection.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also talk about, in the book, how to survive a social catastrophe in terms of especially online connections. How do you do that? What could happen? What kinds of things have you observed happening or heard about happening and what can people do?

Jason Harris:
During this time I don't know if I've necessarily heard of more catastrophes, but how to recover from a social catastrophe, I always think about Watergate, I think about Richard Nixon. The famous quote from that time was, "It's not the crime, it's the cover up." And you think about Bill Clinton, it's the same thing. It's not necessarily what he did, of course, what he did was strange and odd and off with Monica Lewinsky, but it's the fact ... It was the cover up, the fact that he said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." It's the fact that Richard Nixon denied that he was breaking into Watergate to steal documents.

Jason Harris:
I think that is the biggest thing. It's really, if you do do a mistake online, you have to be honest with yourself that you did it. You have to look at why you did it, what was behind the idea, so that you can then simply come out and apologize. So it's really ... That's one way, when you do something that you shouldn't have, you have to explain why, and then apologize quickly for it. And when you let it drag on or you deny it, it all comes out in the end, and that's when you get in deep trouble.

Bobbi Rebell:
The third principle you talk about is about being empathetic.

Jason Harris:
Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:
How does that apply these days? I mean, it has to do a lot with the way that you communicate, especially in these times when it's a little bit awkward for many people. Not everyone is so comfortable here, and you have to collaborate with people in this new setting that is very unnatural and clunky sometimes.

Jason Harris:
It is clunky. Yes, it is. One thing that you pulled out from the book is this idea of collaboration, and that it's really important to collaborate. If you want to persuade people, you have to think of interest, not of reason. So you have to think of what makes that person tick, what's behind that person. Not logic and facts and data to convince them. It has to be about something that they would care about to get them on your side.

Jason Harris:
And so back to I'm trying to convince an ad campaign that we're trying to develop, I have to convince people on the team why we want to do this campaign versus the other campaign. So I have to think about what elements that they might like or what a client might like, or what would appeal to the brief that the client sent me, and try to make them feel like they are creating it with us or with me. So if someone feels like they're on your side, the chances to persuade them jump dramatically. If they feel like they have an idea and you have an idea and you're on different sides, then it's going to be very hard to persuade them.

Jason Harris:
And so for people doing work at this time, I'd recommend if you're working with a client, doing multiple check-ins to get to whatever you're trying to sell or present, or get them to buy off on or persuade them on, so that they're building the idea or the concept, or whatever, the sponsorship, whatever it might be, they're building that with you because you're doing multiple touch points, which are even more important when we're doing everything over video. So collaboration is really a critical element to selling.

Bobbi Rebell:
It's challenging because I mean, you've talked about it in your book, that it's really important to get in front of a client to show them, make the trip, travel around the world, to see them in person. That doesn't happen anymore. So it's interesting that you're saying now it's the frequency of the touch points is a really important thing.

Jason Harris:
Yeah. That's a good recall on the book. That's impressive. But yes, I mean the in person persuasion and selling to create your business is kind of everything. And so that in person touch about being with them, when you take that away, the only replacement is to see them more often and frequently because you can't be in person with them. It's not I'm going to go away for two weeks and then come back and present you this huge deck. It's about doing multiple check-ins. It takes more work quite frankly, to do that, but they're going to feel like they're bought in with you and they're collaborating with you, and your chances of persuading them, whatever it is that, whatever your business is, will go dramatically up.

Bobbi Rebell:
The final principle that you talk about in the book is soulful, and it also obviously lends itself to the title. This, to me, is the hardest thing to communicate and to be successful at, given the tools that we have right now. I mean, how does that translate to the way that we're working now and the way that we're communicating, not just a business, but with friends and family as well?

Jason Harris:
Yeah, that is the hardest thing to do right now. The final principle of soulful, the concept behind it is really that whatever skill you have, whatever you're doing, you need to also add a layer of purpose, something that's greater than yourself, where you can become an inspirational person. And so for me, it's using my advertising powers to do social good campaigns, do pro bono campaigns, because that's inspirational and that's persuasive, and that's doing more than just thinking about profit and being transactional. It's doing something bigger and better for the world.

Jason Harris:
Anyone can really apply that principle in whatever skill that you have, but during this time, you really have to figure out how to do that in a way that ... You're working hard and everything's more challenging, but how can you do that in a simple way? So an idea might be that if you're a financial expert, you might find a group that really could use, Bobbi, the books that you wrote, and you would donate those books. Or maybe you'll do a reading to an online class about some of the principles in your book or a story that you might find. You'll just do that for free, for goodwill, to get people talking. And maybe you name that thing that you're doing to educate students or to the financially insecure or unstable. Maybe you're helping them with some techniques or are doing some storytelling. Maybe you do that half hour a week, and people can do a live webinar and tune in for free.

Jason Harris:
But whatever your skill is, apply that to do something that's good and it'll make you feel good. It'll make you a more persuasive person because it shows that you truly don't just care about your own business, but you care about the greater world. And that inspiration will make you a more influential person.

Episode Links:

• Jason's website - www.thesoulfulart.com and mekanism.com

Follow Jason!

• Instagram - @jason_harris

• Twitter - @jason_harris

• LinkedIn

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.

A lot of us feel squeamish about selling but even movie stars have to sell their work. Ash Ambirge, author of The Middle Finger Project: Trash Your Imposter Syndrome and Live the Unf*ckwithable Life You Deserve shares her story of getting inspired by Brad Pitt to get past her fears and succeed at selling.

Ash’s Money Story:

Ash Ambirge:
When I was watching TV one day from my apartment in Santiago, Chile, where I was living at the time, an ad for Brad Pitt's new movie popped onto the TV. And there, this guy is like giving this big interview. He's all over the place. He's really excited about his new movie. He's telling Oprah or whoever, Ellen at the time, all about this thing that was coming up. And I looked at him and I thought, "Oh my God, even people like Brad Pitt need to promote their stuff. He's not exempt from this either. And look at him doing a fine and eloquent job."

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you translate that to yourself?

Ash Ambirge:
Yeah. So when you see Brad Pitt standing up and saying, "Hey everybody, so my new movie comes out on March 3rd and here's what it's about and I really hope you guys show up," you realize that the key to selling has nothing to do with selling, it has everything to do with enthusiasm. Brad Pitt was enthusiastic about his movie and I wanted to feel that way too about the stuff that I was selling.

Ash Ambirge:
And so I started switching my approach. Every single thing that I was doing, whether it was an event or not, I started telling everyone about with the utmost enthusiasm. Because when I believed in the things that I was creating and making, other people automatically felt like they could believe in it too. And it created this chain reaction. And a part of that was also understanding that I could no longer sell the things that I wasn't really enthusiastic about.

Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. So true, and yet we don't always really process things that way.

“Selling is always helping”

Ash’s Money Lesson:

Bobbi Rebell:
what is the lesson for our listeners from that story? How can people make it their own?

Ash Ambirge:
Whenever you go into any interaction, and it doesn't matter if you're an employee or you are a freelancer, you have to approach it from the perspective of an advisor. This is what I look at now and it's like, "Okay, hey person. Yes, I'm really excited. Here's the stuff that I'm doing. Here's how I think it could help you." Talk to them about what you actually have to offer in the most brightest and brilliant way you can muster, as opposed to looking at it like, oh, I'm just a lowly employee or a lowly freelancer and I'm here just to kind of take orders from people and wait and hope that they give me their money and hope that they see that I'm actually awesome.

Ash Ambirge:
Instead, you have to look at it like you're an advisor and you are here to just be the most enthusiastic you can about this thing that you are selling. And when you approach it with enthusiasm and like, "Hey, I'm just here to help, let's talk about how I can help you," it changes everything from feeling ick and salesy, to being like, "Oh my gosh, this person is my guardian angel. I'm so excited that their here." They will be thrilled to hear from you.

Bobbi Rebell:
And that shift in mindset is key because people can tell when you're selling versus helping them. There's a difference.

Ash Ambirge:
Yeah. Oh yeah. And that's it, selling is always helping. We always feel like we're bothering people, but if you genuinely set out to help somebody, it doesn't even matter if you're just great at makeup, if you are great at finances, whatever the thing is that you're great at, that's all you're doing. You're showing up and being like, "Hey, do you need my help?" That's it. It's simple. "Hey, do you want my help? I have this thing for sale. You can totally buy it. Let's do it."

“Enthusiasm is the greatest pitch there is”

Ash’s Money Tip:

Ash Ambirge:
It does have to do with hot dogs and Jersey. It's called the hot dog theory of money. The hot dog theory of money is to help you anytime you get all scared and intimidated when you are sitting there in your boss's office, or you are asking a client to give you more money, A, because hotdogs are hilarious, and B, because they really do simplify this and make it way less scary.

Ash Ambirge:
So if you were a vendor on the Jersey shore and you're out there selling hot dogs, and some guy comes up to you and is like, "Yo man, hey, how much for a hot dog," you are not going to hm and haw and get all nervous about stating the price of the hotdog, you're not going to say, "Well, since it's the first time that you're here, maybe we could work out a deal," or, I don't know, "Did you have a budget in mind for how much you wanted to spend?" None of that, because we understand intuitively that if we're actually a vendor selling a hotdog on the Jersey shore, the price is the price is the price for a reason. It includes all of the manufacturing costs, it includes the delivery, it includes the packaging, the branding, it includes my time sitting there just selling these hotdogs, and whatever other costs are involved.

Ash Ambirge:
And it also is going to include the person who owns the company. It's going to include their profit, and we never ever factor in our own profit and our own worth when it comes to asking for money. So, the next time you have to ask for it, think about it. You are just stating the price of a hot dog. That's it. This is what it costs, would you like to buy it?

Bobbi Rebell:
That just makes so much sense. And that's something that really was a huge turning point in your business because you were making mistakes early on, and then by having that mentality, you started to have firm prices and it changed everything.

Ash Ambirge:
It did. I used to work in advertising before I became a freelancer, and one of the things I learned from that was they would send us out with rate cards and the rate was the rate was the rate for the magazine. And it was very straight forward. So I adopted that posture when I walked into meetings with my own clients now and just said, "Hey, so here's how much it costs. Here's what it includes." It's so much less complicated than we make it in our heads. The price is the price is the price for a reason and that includes every single thing about you that you're bringing to the table, from your enthusiasm about your stuff, to the way that you package it, to all the stuff that you know. I mean, it is so worth it, but sometimes we may seem way harder than it is.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, it's hard because we can be insecure about our own self-worth. And your book, one of the many things that I love about it is there's so much in there that can give us the confidence to be more secure and to be stronger in negotiations, and also in advocating for ourselves and for our businesses. One of my favorite quotes in the book, there's so many, but anyway, one of them is, "If you build it, they will come is basically for a jelly donut to magically appear in your hand."

Ash Ambirge:
Okay. Seriously. I mean, and for my listeners, this is the kind of stuff, but you're making a real point. It's just not going to happen if you just think they're going to come because you built it, right?

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah.

Ash Ambirge:
But the key really goes back to enthusiasm. Like when you are enthusiastic about the thing you're selling, even if it's yourself and your talents, then great. And it just shows up naturally and you don't have to put all of this weird professionalism around it and all this weird like anxiety that happens. Like you're just there to help everybody.

Bobbi Rebell:
And speaking of that, one of my favorite quotes is, "Enthusiasm is the greatest pitch there is," because of just what you said. If you love something and you believe in it and you believe that it's going to help the person who might potentially buy it, that's a much stronger sell.

Ash Ambirge:
It's a much stronger sale. And I've sold myself to companies that way as an employee and as a freelancer, no matter what it is. That's what they love about working with people because no one ever hired anyone to be unhelpful, right? So if you can demonstrate that you are here to legitimately help them, that's wonderful. And then they can figure out how to teach you the on the job stuff that they need to know. Enthusiasm is so underrated.

Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah. And a lot of us get tempted to offer to do things for free just to prove ourselves. But another one of the quotes that I love is, "Charging money is a sign they can take your offer seriously."

Ash Ambirge:
Yes. And so is showing up consistently for yourself in whatever form, and following up with those clients in some kind of a very systematic way shows them that you take their business seriously and they can trust you. Because there's nothing worse than some guy who's like, "Hey I can help you with your SEO for your website." And then he's like, "Hey, just give me admin access to your site," and doesn't do any kind of like contract or have any kind of process. Having those processes in place and actually sending out those kinds of things and charging fair good money is a sign the client can trust you.

“Charging good, fair money is a sign the client can trust you”

Bobbi’s Financial Grownup Tips:

Financial Grownup Tip #1:

You can find inspiration everywhere. Brad Pitt, not the first person you think of when it comes to business necessarily, and he didn't come from a privileged background. Brad Pitt did not go to a fancy college and he isn't even officially in the sales business, except he is, and to a large degree, we all are. Even if you are just even applying for a new job or trying to get a new client, you're selling yourself as a solution to their problem. That's the job to fill.

Financial Grownup Tip #2:

With all of us working from home these days, there is a temptation to go super casual. And in some cases, that can work, but Ash talks about processes, having set prices and being professional, running a business, a professional business. People take you seriously then. Let's not forget that you still need to be on time. You still need to look neat and professional, even if it's a little bit more casual. You want to follow up efficiently just like you would if you were getting up and going to an office. If you want somebody to give you money, don't forget her advice. You need to be enthusiastic, even as hard as it may be with everything going on these days.

Episode Links:

• Ash’s website - www.themiddlefingerproject.org

• Ash’s Book - The Middle Finger Project

Follow Ash!

• Twitter - @TMFproject

• Facebook - @TMFproject

• Instagram - @the.middle.finger.project

Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means if you click on the link and purchase the item, I will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. All opinions remain my own.