Talking money with friends and family without the awkwardness featuring Sandi Bragar and Cammie Doder of Aspiriant
Talking money with friends and family without the awkwardness featuring Sandi Bragar and Cammie Doder of Aspiriant
 

Episode Description: The hosts of the Money Tales podcast share strategies to tackle taboo money topics with family and friends.

Video Highlight: Cammie speaks about embarassment when talking about money.

Cammie’s Bio:Cammie joined Aspiriant in 2005, originally responsible for sales and marketing. In 2016, she was chosen to take the firm’s marketing direction to a higher level and lead a team of professionals on a variety of initiatives.

Cammie is a marketer at heart, working in a client-centric, fiduciary-focused firm, which means the she is a listener, educator and advocate, first and foremost. Cammie is passionate about empowering our current and prospective clients by helping them navigate the murky waters of the industry to make informed decisions about their financial lives. As the Chief Marketing Officer and a partner of Aspiriant, Cammie works to ensure consistency across the Aspiriant brand, highlighting the warmth, passion and forward-thinking approach we bring to wealth management. Her role spans across branding, digital, content, client experience, inbound marketing, automation and messaging. Cammie believes the Aspiriant secret needs to be shared with more people and looks to connect with the next client whose goals we can help them achieve. Cammie earned a B.S. degree in Business from the University of Southern California and an M.B.A. from The Anderson School at University of California-Los Angeles. Outside the office, Cammie spends time with her husband and two daughters. They are either enjoying their local environs or visiting family in Southern California, on the East Coast or in Ireland.

Sandi’s Bio: Sandi is the Chief Client Officer at Aspiriant and leads our Planning, Strategy & Research team. The group is responsible for our state-of-the-art wealth planning platform that fosters intimate client relationships and helps families navigate the complex facets of their financial lives. Sandi also co-hosts our Money Tales podcast. Sandi joined Aspiriant in 1999 and became a partner of the firm in 2002. Sandi began her professional career in 1993 at Ernst & Young, where she spent two and a half years as a senior tax consultant in the firm’s Personal Financial Counseling practice. Sandi is a member of the Financial Planning Association and serves as a mentor in the Financial Planning Association’s Residency Program. She is also an active member of the Purposeful Planning Institute and chairs the Vision Expedition that is planning the organization’s annual Rendezvous conference. Sandi has been frequently quoted in the media, including CNBC, Bloomberg TV and Radio, Fox Business News, Yahoo! Finance, The Wall Street Journal, and the San Francisco Chronicle. Among other accolades, Sandi has been named one of Forbes America’s Top Women Advisors and Best-In-State Wealth Advisors in 2021. Sandi holds a B.A. degree in Business Economics from the University of California-Santa Barbara. She earned her Certified Public Accountant credential in 1996 and her Certified Financial Planner™ credential in 1999. Sandi is Treasurer of the Jewish Community Relations Council of San Francisco. She also serves on the Investment Committee of Kiddo!, the Mill Valley Schools Community Foundation.

 
 

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

Money conversations come up all the time without us really being ready- and we muddle through them. But if we can get some thoughtful and intentional ideas under our belt ahead of time, we can make the conversations much more productive when it does happen. That’s just some of the great advice you will get from this week’s guests. But first- this week’s quote comes from my friend Jean Chatzky: Quote

” The only way to get comfortable talking about money is to talk about it more often” 

Jean is the founder and CEO of Her money and the host of the podcast by the same name.  Now to our guests: 

Sandi Bragar and Cammie Doder of Aspiriant. Cammie is Chief Marketing Officer where her role spans across branding, digital, content, client experience, inbound marketing, automation and messaging.  Sandi is the Chief Client Officer at Aspiriant and leads our Planning, Strategy & Research team. Together they host the very popular Money Tales podcast where they often get into it on some very taboo money topics- which is kinda why I had to have them on this podcast. 

Here are Sandi Bragar and Cammie Doder of Aspiriant:

Sandy Bragar and Cammie Doder of Aspirant. I hope I said that correctly. Welcome, you are both financial grownups.

 

Sandi Bragar:

We like to think we are.

 

Bobbi Rebell:

You absolutely are. We're going to be talking about money conversations that are intentional. Before I get into your tips on that, tell me what that means to you. What does it mean to have an intentional money conversation?

 

Sandi Bragar:

Bobbi, money conversations come up all the time in our day-to-day lives without us even thinking and realizing that they're money conversations. And because they're just sort of coming up, if we go through the motion of our day-to-day life, we're not really thinking about the conversation, we're not determining in advance what we want to communicate, what we wanna get out of the conversation. So coming into the money conversations with intention is the exact opposite. It's premeditating. It's really... being thoughtful about what it is that you want to cover, what are you trying to learn, what do you want to express, what conclusion do you want, or are you driving toward an action item? Having all of that in mind can make the money conversation much more productive.

 

Cammie Doder:

And having fun with it. I think there's a having it front of mind and present and something you're committed to. There's a commitment. I think about you know, being wellness is about making that commitment and having that intention as part of it.

 

Bobbi Rebell:

So we want to communicate effectively about money with the people that we care most about in life. So let's start with our friends and family. What are your strategies when we want to have intentional conversations? Because it can be so awkward to even start the conversation. Is this something we should plan in advance? Or is it something we should kind of look for the opening in the moment?

 

Sandi Bragar:

a great question. I think you can go in either direction and be ready to play both sides of that coin. When you want to make sure that you're having a conversation when you're really diving into it with Intention Bobbi, we do recommend that people give some thought to how to open the conversation. And there's many different ways to do it. A common one could be, hey, I was listening to this great podcast and they were talking about Topic A or Topic B, what do you think of that? That's a really great launching point, or I read an article, or I saw something on television, or heard something on the news. Those are easy, comfortable ways to ease into a conversation, or just bringing curiosity about something that you've been thinking about and asking the other person how they're wondering about it. But certainly there are windows of opportunities to jump in, and Cammie, do you wanna chat about that?

 

Cammie Doder:

Yeah, so there's also the idea like you, you know, ask for permission to, hey, I'd love to ask, have this conversation. So you asked to start with permission. There's also something Sandy and I do on Money Tales, the podcast we co host is start from the beginning, which is sometimes really easy. Tell us when you were growing up, how was money handled in your home? Or tell me a story, when did money have meaning to you? You know, and you can start for me. I remember swimming in the community pool and people off the diving board, money fell out of their pockets. And if you got that money, you could go buy an ice cream. Money had meaning. It got me that ice cream. So telling those stories, it could really just warm up and it's, it's then you show how, how easy and comfortable and how money is part of life.

 

Bobbi Rebell:

And that's important because it also opens the door for multi-generational conversations, which can be really the most awkward, especially for children who want to have a better sense of their parents' financial goals and maybe in some cases financial means. What's going on? It's important to have that information because we don't know how life Will evolve.

 

Sandi Bragar:

Those are some of my most favorite conversations, not only in my own family, but in the work that we do with clients at Experient. And I think when it comes to multi-generational conversations, it's helpful to provide some context to the conversation. What are the boundaries? What are we talking about? Is it information that we want to keep private and just keep within the family, or are these things that we're welcome to share and talk to with people outside of our family? Having those established ground rules up front. can be really helpful. And then also inviting in that curiosity of what's on your mind, what would you like to learn? And being mindful of the ages and the experience level of the different family members in the room, making sure that you're really communicating in a way that makes sense to them. We were in a podcast conversation recently where someone was telling us that They heard their parents talking about money all the time growing up, but they had no idea what their parents were really saying. And what a missed opportunity in that family to check in. And if you're talking about money in front of the next generation, you should be doing that because you want them to learn from it. And so checking in, seeing what questions that they have, asking them for their biggest takeaways from the conversation, getting their points of view and perspectives, all of that helps make the conversations between multiple generations flow a lot more smoothly. and more productively.

 

Cammie Doder:

I like that Sandi talked about making it a conversation. So it isn't just the senior generation espousing their wisdom. It's hearing from the rising generation, hearing their perspectives, how do they engage with money, and hearing their stories. I think that's really important.

 

Bobbi Rebell:

Another thing I know that you are very focused on is education and how that can be integrated into the intentional conversations about money. So what do you recommend people do if, for example, they want to learn more about money in the context of being able to then bring it up and expand their relationships with their friends and family and make everyone more comfortable?

 

Cammie Doder:

I'll start and say, you know, Sandy hit on it already, but learning is everywhere, so first chip away at it. So don't feel like I have to know everything all at once and, you know, drinking from the fire hose. So find areas that you are interested and find resources where they're enjoyable. So podcasting is a great example where you can hear stories and you can learn in a lot of different methods. Or a book, if someone's a book learner, pick up a book, start small. and then share your knowledge with others, I do find that if I can explain it to someone else, I'm really understanding the concept. So the idea is in financial concepts, we hear a lot of embarrassment, I should know more. And something we talk a lot about is, why is that? Why do people feel in no other area of their lives do they have to know everything, but something about money, we have to know everything. And so really reminding ourselves that You're just learning, you're just growing, have a growth mindset, find areas you're interested in, and find resources that you enjoy. Don't make it something that's not enjoyable.

 

Bobbi Rebell:

If you hear, as you mentioned, these conversations where maybe members of your family or your friends are having a conversation about money, how do you, without it being awkward, get in there and learn more? You don't want them to feel like you're nosy. You don't want the parents to feel like you maybe have malicious intention of some sort. It's uncomfortable.

 

Sandi Bragar:

It can be, but the magic all happens by the outside of that comfort zone. So we encourage people to get in there and ask questions. You don't have to have all the big conversations at once. You can ease into them. Kamie mentioned some of that before. You can start slow, keep coming back to a topic. But if you're hearing someone in the next room over or someone else in the room that you're in talking about something that's of interest to you, just like any other topic, you could just jump in and say, wow, that's really fascinating. I've been thinking about that too. Here's what I'm wondering or Tell me, how did you decide how much money you're gonna contribute to your 401k when you're otherwise trying to save money for a home? I've been wrestling with that myself. So it's really, I think, having that curiosity and coming into the conversation with a growth mindset of wanting to learn and understand, as opposed to having maybe some concerns that you should know more than you know, or the people that you're... you're in conversation with have it all figured out because most of us don't. Most people act like they know everything about money. But to Cammie's point earlier, there's a lot in our society that we're not teaching about, we're not talking about. So a lot of people come into money decisions and money conversations ill-prepared and that's okay. Let's use those opportunities as ways to lift ourselves up and lift each other up and get better at these things.

 

Cammie Doder:

You know what I'm also finding is that as I'm getting better and more comfortable about having many conversations, when I do bring it up, let's say with a friend on a hike, there quite often it's not this scary, oh gosh, should I have brought this up? It's people love it. It's almost an open door. Like, oh, great question. I've always wondered that too. How do you think about it? And it becomes this just wonderful, rich, unfolding conversation.

 

Sandi Bragar:

And to add to that, one of the things that we found not only in our Money Tales conversations, but in conversations with clients, when you do create that safe space for these open money conversations, it can bring intimacy and closeness unlike many other topics. So it can be sort of addicting in a way because you just want to get in there and learn more. And once you open that door, it's easy to just stay in that room and keep talking.

 

Bobbi Rebell:

I love that because a lot of the time we, it's not even on purpose, but we realize we're hiding so much from those closest to us who would be the most supportive. But once we break down those barriers, we do find so much support and we often find that they are having a similar experience or certainly can relate to it and be helpful to it. And it can provide relief just there. We can, you know, we can, it is a form of financial wellness to just have that support around you of people that sort of get it and maybe will be more sensitive to what's going on with you.

Sandi Bragar:

That’s exactly right. And I think the more often you're in these conversations and you understand what is most productive, that's when you can start modeling it too. If you're in a situation where you have rising generations of the family around you, you can become much more intentional in what you're talking about, how you're talking about it, and create a much more useful and healthy and relationship with money.

 

Bobbi Rebell:

And I think that these are such important conversations to have, ideally, they listen to this, they take your advice, and people can open the door and get past those awkward moments and to that much more comfortable conversation. But sometimes it does make sense to have a professional involved or a third party. Tell me about that and how that can. sort of, I don't know if accelerate is the right word, but sort of make things a little bit easier by having somebody in there. I mean, sometimes people say it's easier to talk to a stranger about your problems than to those closest to you. And its kind of true.

 

Sandi Bragar:

you know, there are a great many number of really useful money coaches at Aspiriant. We will recommend that clients sit down with money coaches and in wealth dynamic coaches. to help talk through some of these things, especially in the case of couples where they might be coming from different situations, have different perspectives around money, have different relationships. As a quick example, there's a client that I'm working with who is getting engaged to be married and she wants to enter into a prenuptial agreement with her fiancé and they're coming at this conversation from very different perspectives. He comes from a family that doesn't have as many resources as hers. And so he said, let's introduce you to someone who can really invite a warm, welcoming conversation to help you get on the same page, really explore each of your individual values, your joint values and your perspectives around money to make these conversations about a prenuptial agreement much more, I'll just use that word again, productive and allowing you to achieve the goals rather than something that could be. potentially turn into a destructive conversation.

 

Cammie Doder:

I think this this role of an outside advisor does help keep it keep things fluid, have the conversation be focused on what the needs are with the couple. I mean, this is Sandy shared a pre nut, but I think about our clients in a wealth management relationship. We can we can push clients when we know this is a topic we really need to dig deeper or they need to uncover. It's like any good coach. They understand your weaknesses. They know where to push, how to encourage, how to entice. And I think that's how we should consider why that's really invaluable. You only get to a certain level when you try and do everything by yourself. And sometimes that's great and that's all you need. But when you wanna get to that next level, having an advisor or a coach. that's really critical to do so.

 

Sandi Bragar:

That's right, that person is very objective about your money and your situation, whereas you are very subjective. So that can be a very powerful force in helping you move forward.

 

Bobbi Rebell:

Exactly. We can all have the best intentions to have these conversations, but we're all human, and we all have sometimes these protections in our relationships, and we don't want to push people the wrong way. And sometimes it's just easier if a third party comes in and says, we really do need to talk about this topic, and to some degree pushes everyone, but to get to a better place. Before we wrap up, I want to give you, Sandi and Cammie, an opportunity to just tell everyone a little bit about Money Tales, your amazing podcast, which I was fortunate enough to be a guest on, and about your business.

 

Cammie Doder:

Thanks, Bobbi. You know, I'll start with money tales. Uh, this podcast is coming from our business at Aspiriant. We talk to clients about money every day, but what is quite apparent is, and it's really special part. It's a trusting relationship and conversation, but clients would tell us, you know, gosh, we're so thankful. We can talk to you about it. Cause we don't have anybody else to talk about money. So money tells the podcast was intended to. bring to life that we couldn't have this this taboo topic around money doesn't need to be there. And so let's demonstrate and thank you, Bobby, for joining us. Let's demonstrate how to have productive money conversations. And that's really so important.

 

Sandi Bragar:

would just say that I'm one of those people who has the absolute luxury of practicing her dream career. It's really fun for me to help people make really good financial decisions and creating a safe space to open up these money conversations is a big part of being able to help people understand what's most important to them and what they're trying to achieve with their wealth. So It is a joy to be able to do that. And for anyone out there who is hesitant about these conversations, I really would just recommend that you jump in and give it a shot, get out of that comfort zone. Try a conversation, keep doing it, approach it with curiosity. And I am sure that your world will change and for the better.

 

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you both so much for joining me.

Sandi & Cammie:

Thanks for having us Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:

Get out of your comfort zone and have some uncomfortable conversations- just one of the many amazing takeaways from Aspiriant’s Sandi and Cammi. This week’s extra credit is the watch the George Clooney film The Descendants. It is full of uncomfortable family money conversations. In short, Clooney plays a wealthy Hawaiian lawyer who has to deal with his family’s financial issues after his wife is left in a coma after a boating accident - and the plot twists that I won’t reveal make it more awkward than you can ever imagine.  I’d love to hear how you handle awkward money conversations- DM me at bobbirebell1 on instagram and be sure to subscribe to my free newsletter for more tips on being a financial grownup- super easy- bobbirebell.substack.com or get the link in the shownotes. All on my website- bobbirebell.co

Check out the Money Tales podcast - and big thanks to Sandi Bragar and Cammie Doder of Aspiriant for helping us all be financial grownups and invest in peace of mind. 

 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate
How love leads to money and prosperity with Kim Curtis of the Wealth Legacy Institute
How love leads to money and prosperity with Kim Curtis of the Wealth Legacy Institute
 

Episode Description: Kim Curtis, author of Money Secrets: Keys to Smart Investing, and Retirement Secrets shares how to use love to perform at a higher level, take more intentional risks and ultimately find greater financial success.



Video Highlight: Kim Curtis speaks about love leading to money.

Kim Curtis’ Bio: Kim is a nationally recognized wealth management advisor, speaker, president, and CEO of Wealth Legacy Institute. She is proud to have created a firm where she can truly put her clients first, bringing the alignment she needs to feel true joy in her work. For Kim, how you deal with money says a lot about how you deal with life, and she’s passionate about helping her clients find a balance. Kim is a bestselling author of Money Secrets: Keys to Smart Investing and Retirement Secrets, published by Financial Literacy Press. Kim has spoken on leadership, negotiations, and finance to organizations such as West Point, Oracle, EPA, University of Colorado Hospital, Comcast, Level 3, CenturyLink, OtterBox, Johnson & Johnson, and AAUW, amongst others. She has been profiled on NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, CW, and The Wall Street Journal.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell

Welcome friends. This week we are talking about how love leads to money and prosperity. And in fact, our guest will teach us how we can use love to amplify our success. 

But first - our quote of the week. I’ve been doing some spring decluttering and it is hard to get rid of things. So this really helped me keep some perspective and I hope you like it too.

And it is from the actor Sir Anthony Hopkins. Quote “The most important things in life, aren’t things”. 


Let’s get to this week’s guest. Kim Curtis is the President and CEO of Wealth Legacy Institute. She is also the author of Money Secrets: Keys to Smart Investing and Retirement Secrets. 


Our interview focused on how a focus on love and relationships done with the right mindset, will ultimately lead to prosperity. But it can also destroy relationships. Kim has some unique financial wellness strategies that I know will help all of us get closer to our goals. 

Here is Kim Curtis. 


Kim Curtis you are a financial grown-up, welcome to the podcast!


Kim Curtis 

thank you Bobbi


Bobbi Rebell 

i love the name of your company it is Wealth Legacy Institute you know a lot of people don't know this but the word wealth and wellness have the same roots which you just told me I love that


Kim Curtis

yes the etymology of the word wealth is well being which when you think of how much stuff we have around the word wealth and money but yet if we understood that it brought in so much more in terms of spiritual and personal and physical it just allows us to embrace it and come to the table easier for most


Bobbi Rebell

I love also what you say about your company is that your specialty is working with accidental millionaires how do we become accidental millionaires Kim what's the secret


Kim Curtis 

That's a great question you know i could only speak from what i see with my clients but i think that you just do certain basic financial principles and then you forget about it you're just put it on autopilot and then as you get closer to retirement all of a sudden you don't realize that you have over a million dollars in retirement because you're just slugging away you're doing the job you're putting it in your four one k you're not touching it or borrowing from it and you're not messing with it when the capital markets go south you just keep contributing and not mess with the location


Bobbi Rebell 

so it's not the lottery ticket just to be clear


Kim Curtis 

for clarification bobbie it is absolutely not the lottery ticket because we already know those statistics that generally within three to five years the lottery winner has lost the money and the family is fractured


Kim Curtis 

a lot of data around that


Bobbi Rebell

we're gonna mentally reset now and we're going to talk about the topic of this of this week which is how love and money connect, before i get into my specific questions tell me your viewpoint on this


Kim Curtis

where do i start it's so riveting of a conversation but i will i will start i will i'll throw it out there bobby and then we can go for it how's that


Bobbi Rebell (02:08.189)

good go


Kim Curtis

um i think that you need both however starting with love always provides a more fulfilling life ultimately so that's where i'm going to start


Bobbi Rebell 

okay now i'm gonna pay devil's advocate we talk as financial professionals were both certified financial fanners you have a lot more alphabet soup after your name than i do maybe someday i'll catch up but anyway we tend to to remind people that for example who you choose as your life partner whether you're married or you partner together financially they are you know kind of the biggest financial decision of your life and yet in society there's this push back don't marry don't date for money love terms of all money can come and go do what do we do


Kim Curtis 

so can love come and go but ultimately if we lead with love first it allows us to feel more empowered and more supported and more complete and when we feel that we're more likely to take more risk and we're more likely to be more successful because we're performing at a higher level when love supports us and when you perform at a higher level you're more likely to get promotions and earn more money and so it's kind of this wonderful circle that allows for money to find you


Bobbi Rebell 

tell me more about that what do you mean by that you mean because i just saw a statistic the other day that you know and i don't know what to believe and went not to believe because as i hate to say this but as a former journalist we've learned that statistics kind of say anything we want them to say but i did see a statistic that you know married men live longer there's all these studies about that which is kind of depressing because i think that everyone should live longer it shouldn't be just you know because i put so much undue pressure, especially on single people to pair up what is the connection between love and money i mean our single people doomed i don't want to believe that


Kim Curtis 

no no not at all i actually bobby will take it a little further back to put context around the conversation i tend to believe how you do money is how you do life so if you have your head in the sand on money you have your head in the sand on other areas of your life so success around money is an inside job so the more you know yourself and when you have a relationship it's easier to get to know yourself because you tend to understand and learn more of your preferences of what you like and don't like so if you knew how you do money is how you do live and then you understood that actually to have money… money is actually looking for you not the other way around when we think I need money i need money, no money needs you it needs your ideas your vision your values to turn it into something of use to the world 


Bobbi Rebell 

so give us an example of that okay so give us an example of that how that would work in real life because you're losing me a little bit


Kim Curtis 

fair fair the money means nothing it's a piece of paper it only is a value that we give it so it's like our arms and our legs we need them but is our arms or our legs more important no we need them both so that's kind of the conversation with love and money it isn't necessarily that one is better than the other you need them both to have a successful abundant life and so if you start with love first then you're more likely to have a more rounded approach to money but it doesn't mean that you can't it doesn't mean that you can't have money without love many people have money without love it just is not as fun


Bobbi Rebell

one of the things that causes a lot of financial anxiety even when you do have love in your life is if you disagree on your financial values if your inner relationship and you find yourself for example let's just say one person wants to spend a lot of money and one person wants to take the long road and save more.how do you balance that and not have it destroy your relationship frankly


Kim Curtis

that is such an excellent question because money does destroy relationships um and i think the biggest thing is depending on the listeners is that that's a great conversation before you tie the knot is to find out debt and know what you're getting into ahead of time and then before tying the knot have those conversations around money and how money will be spent and saved so some couples especially if it's a second marriage will keep their own separate accounts checking and savings and then whatever that agreed upon percentages into the joint account that pays the family that pays the household bills and so they generally oftentimes will keep everything separate except for those joint expenses and that's one way to navigate desperate spending habits is by keeping your own stuff separate and that you see a lot of that in second marriages


Bobbi Rebell

what if you are having that conversation and you do find out or maybe you did know already that your love has debt maybe it's good debt maybe it's bad debt maybe we shouldn't judge at i don't know but is that ground i mean what you do are you supposed to break off the relationship that seems crazy


Kim Curtis 

there is a difference between good debt and bad debt which you probably talked about before on your podcast


Bobbi Rebell

so we should be judgmental about debt that's a go okay well you know because there's sometimes there's vague lines i mean there's good debt and you could say student loaned it but there's credit card debt which you might judge on the surface is bad but what if that credit card debt came to pay a medical bill that saved someone's life right so it's not always so clear to judge


Kim Curtis

very true that's really fair to make that point clear i think that to have harmony in love that if there is different values around money that it's important to see not a financial planner a certified financial planner but someone that in therapy you're coaching that could work with a couple to navigate the differences so you could stay in your own line and still have love and companionship


Bobbi Rebell

a lot of relationships breakdown also later in life when there are disagreements about retirement you even wrote a book about retirement… retirement secrets tell us about that i mean how do you navigate when sort of you know you're in that later stage of life and you're maybe you're empty nesting at you know the flip side of the getting married and you find yourself having disagreements or maybe not even being where you thought you would be financially and that's causing financial stress in your in your relationship


Kim Curtis 

you know it's funny i don't know if it's as much financial stress as it is having different visions of what retirement may look like as couples i think one of the biggest conversations that we have for couples that are about to step off into retirement is making sure they get on the same page. because one spouse may want to buy an RV and travel the country to find their great new place location well that's the last thing the spouse wants to have to do lunches and meal and travel when all they want is to live close to their extended family and so you have to bridge that in terms of what is the best outcome within the financial realm that they have so once you identify what their monthly spending amount is and they recognize okay let's say the monthly spending amount is seven thousand a month net then they could have different conversations about what's realistic and what's not from a standpoint that's not as much emotional even though outcome is always an emotional one despite the money it's always an emotional outcome


Bobbi Rebell 

it is emotional i mean that's talk about that i mean the fact is you know we can talk about money in numbers and i think we always think if we only had x dollars more we could do what we want how do you sort of i guess you don't take the emotion out you just kind of admit that it is part of it it's what you're saying


Kim Curtis

yeah i think it's important for us to unpack what some of those money stories are that brings that charge into because some people just dive in and like it immediately triggers something and so what are those early money messages that were given to you and the nature of our work we actually ask questions that go back generationally we call it we call it humanographics humanity on a graph so it's kind of like a family tree where we plot up and down parents grandparent and where do they come from how do they come into the country what are their occupations and then what's your first money story what's your first money memory and what happens as we plot and then ask more questions around the functionality of the family we realize that may be some of that icky whatever about money what's your great grandpa who was a tight wad it has nothing to do with you but it has worked through the family and you can then say i'm not going to be that person i am going to that no longer serves me i'm going to come up with my own money wellness


Bobbi Rebell 

i love that you brought that up because you write a lot about different generations and how we can take care of our parents and then back to how we take care of our kids love isn't always just through romantic relationships and partnership it's also the parent-child relationship i wrote a lot about this and launching financial grown ups what advice did you have then for parents who find themselves not just helicopter parents but concierge parents you know not only but it's true we want to be there for our kids and we are reachable pretty much all the time just like concierges often solving problems with money just like a concierge do parents sometimes use money to kind of i hate to say to buy their children's love but let's say to secure it in some ways especially as the children become young adults and we want to stay close to them and we want to not let go of our role as parents talk about the money love thing there


Kim Curtis 

wow that has so many places i can take it Bobbie but i think that as mom's and parents that the best thing we can do for our child is to allow them to have failure around money early on and that could be you know ten eleven and twelve-fifteen… allow them to make decisions around money and um giving an allowance should not be tied to just being a member of the family it should be tied to chores so that they know that they get money for nothing that they have to work for the trade off and then as young adults, it's so hard you know you want to help them get into a house you want to help them if you have them if you're lucky enough to have those means but the key around that is that they need to understand the struggle so that they have resiliency I mean if you think the world right now is disruption and if they don't have grit and resiliency and agility then you've done more harm than good by that gift or that help or that manipulation to keep them nearby


Bobbi Rebell 

this was great where could people find out more about you and all of your books


Kim Curtis

yes Wealth Legacy Institute dot com and my books Money Secrets:Keys to Smart Investing and Retirement Secrets:Keys to Retiring Happy, Healthy and Free can be found on Amazon.


Bobbi Rebell 

thank you so much

This week’s extra credit is actually a reading assignment that may also help improve your finances- but you might not be happy with the reason why. 

Sadly It was inspired by my own personal experience this past week when I went over one of my bills. It seemed high so I took a closer look. I noticed one day I had the same charge three times. Then, I also noticed the following date- I had a different charge and this time it hit my bill two times. And yes- it was the same vendor. I actually don’t think it was malicious. They have been hiring new staff and I do think it was an honest mistake as they were training. But it is money. And they are correcting it. 

So yes, this week instead of me telling you to watch a movie or listen to a podcast- I’m telling you to read your bills. Go back a few months while you are at it. 

There are apps that will flag double charges for you- they are aimed at subscriptions but they are probably good for this. Let me know if you have any experience with them. The names that come to mind include Rocket Money which used to be Truebill, as well as AskTrim and Pocketguard. DM me at bobbirebell1 with your take on these and I can share your advice in an upcoming newsletter. 

You can get on the newsletter list by going to bobbirebell.substack.com- and please share this podcast and the link to the newsletter with someone you care about. 

Loved this weeks’ interview - big thanks to Kim Curtis of the Legacy Wealth Institute- for helping us all be financial grownups and teaching us how to invest with peace of mind. 




 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate, lovemoney, relationshsips, loveandmoney, money advice
How to talk about bad money habits with Dr. Megan Ford
How to talk about bad money habits with Dr. Megan Ford
 

Episode Description:

We all have our moments when we know we aren’t on track with our money values- or we see those we care about going off track. Dr. Megan Ford shares her strategies on how we can look internally at what is happening and how we can use those insights to help others.

Dr. Megan Ford’s Bio: Dr. Megan Ford is a financial therapist and consultant who is exceedingly passionate about helping individuals and couples find more balance and understanding in their relationship with money.

As one of the leading experts in the growing field of financial therapy, Megan has an interdisciplinary education and practice background, earning a Ph.D. in financial planning and a Master's degree in marriage and family therapy.

Megan also served as a President of the Financial Therapy Association (FTA), has co-authored a textbook, The Fundamentals of Writing a Financial Plan, and has published several peer-reviewed articles, including her own financial therapy model, the Ford Financial Empowerment Model (FFEM). Her research interests center on the dynamics of couples, including financial conflict and financial intimacy.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Dr. Megan Ford!

  • Instagram - @stackin

  • Instagram - @moneytherapywithmegan

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

Welcome friends. Today's show is going to focus on something I don’t like to talk about and that is bad money habits. We all have them. And they aren’t always obvious- on the surface, we talk about things like overspending or not putting enough money away for retirement. But what about being too conservative in our investment strategy. Or not spending on things we need to because we want to be frugal and “good”  and then finding ourselves in a bad situation in the future.  Or not taking a risk.. And then looking back with regret. 

On that note- Today’s quote was something I jotted down when I was watching a show called Open House and a designer was talking about how he finally was able to furnish his dream home and quoted his grandfather as saying:

”In order to have things you’ve never had you have to do things you have never done “ 

I like this because it’s not focused so much on material things as on having the courage to step out of your comfort zone and take a risk. 

Something to keep in mind when think about the choices we make - sometimes what we feel is expected of us, to follow the careful path is too careful- focus on what taking that risk can help you achieve. 

Speaking of moving out of your comfort zone- I was intimidated about interviewing this week’s guest. Dr. Megan Ford is a big deal.  But I did my best. Megan is a certified family therapist with a Ph.D. in financial planning, the financial therapist behind the financial wellness app, Stackin, and former president of the Financial Therapy Association, of which I am a member.

The interview is a little longer than usual because she was just that good.. I know you will love this conversation. 

Here is Dr. Megan Ford. 

Megan Ford, you are a financial grown-up. Welcome to the podcast.

Megan Ford:

Thank you so much, Bobbi. I am really excited to be here today with you.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, you are a “big get”, as they say, because you are a pioneer in the field of financial therapy. In fact, you served as president of the financial therapy association. Tell us more about you and your work and what you're up to now because you're also emerging technology with financial therapy,

Megan Ford:

Yes, so I, I'm busy. I'm a busy woman, but I can talk a little bit more about what got me into this evolving field of financial therapy, and sort of what I'm up to these days as well. So I am a financial therapist, And so how I position that is sort of working in this space between the technical side of finances and the emotional and relational side of finances. So my background is a little bit unique educationally. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, So that's what I, I got my master's degree in, and I recently finished my doctorate in financial planning, so I have this cross-disciplinary background that kind of allows me to look into both of these spaces with some level of clarity, so I think that really where I really. where my origin story, I think about money stems from is important when we're considering. like, how did you get here to this? this place of financial therapy? Why did you choose this path? I am what I would consider a textbook money avoider, Um, I had some early experiences growing up that maybe others I would relate to as well, Um, I had some moments growing up where I did not feel that math numbers, or you know, anything related to that ,money, was for me. I felt moments of confusion and shame and misunderstanding, and I and those were very early experiences that I think carried forward into just this kind of like. I don't want to look at this. I don't want to deal with this. I don't want to be associated with this subject of money numbers. So going into my master's degree kind of was holding on to some of that narrative, and just you know, the virtue of the kind of like happenstance. I. My, my graduate assistantship was working under a financial planning professor, and this, I guess this new field was sort of emerging at that time, and I like to say that I was kind of born into financial therapy, so that time of my life really gave me this new viewpoint on how much emotion is kind of there inside when we're thinking about our money behaviors are our histories, our financial past, and that those scripts, as we,

Bobbi Rebell:

Right,

Megan Ford:

as we call them, are so very present in our everyday lives, and in how we kind of have this, we take this perspective. Like more globally, what's happening in our lives and that's so present for us. so I think that you know it was very much a journey and getting from that point to this point, but what's really great is I think I was able to take this journey also with healing my relationship with money and feeling more comfortable in that space, so much so that I really decided to go out on a limb and get a doctorate in financial planning. It's very much a journey that continues. It's something that I have to resist against still, and I think that that speaks to the fact that you know we're we are ever. We are ever-changing, ever-evolving as humans, and we need to continue that work of financial wellness for ourselves, and that reflection of peace for ourselves as well.

Bobbi Rebell:

I could not agree more. And I I love your vulnerability and your honesty about it Because there's this perception that those of us that you know dedicate our lives to talking about money and trying to help people about money. There's a feeling that we are at the sort of end at the pinnacle of our journey. That our lives are perfect and we've got all the answers. In fact, we often have more of questions, and that brings us

Megan Ford:

Mhm

Bobbi Rebell:

to the topic

Megan Ford:

yep,

Bobbi Rebell:

that I want to steer this conversation towards, which is having positive money conversations About bad money habits. One bad money habit is ignoring money or thinking that there's actually an option that you can just have somebody else take care of your money. You can have somebody, actually, maybe execute transactions. But at the end of the day and this goes to the whole idea of being a financial grown-up, you have to own your financial situation. So to your point about this urge to ignore your money, that is a bad money habit. How can we have good conversations about that bad money habit?

Megan Ford:

There are so many things that we can do. I think one of the things that I land on first is we can't have productive money conversations with others. whether that's an intimate partner, whether that's a family member until we have a little bit of an opportunity to look internally at what's happening, I'm a firm believer in like know thyself before you can, you can really, Um, be super productive in that area with another person. So I think it starts there. I think it starts with examining and exploring your own money story. And what is sort of what baggage financially are you carrying around? still today? That would impede those types of conversations with other people. Um, that would maybe block you from understanding Their perspective that sometimes we carry around a lot of rigidity about finances and how it's quote supposed to go are supposed to be, or how we're supposed to behave. Um, I like to joke that money is one of the things that bring out that little judge in us. We're looking at other people and their money behaviors, and Um sort of what they decide to do with money Like, I think that brings up some judgment in many of us, and that can be that And be okay, But we just have to know sort of what to do with that, so

Bobbi Rebell:

Give us some examples. How we might be judging. How might we judge people with respect to money? What might be some real-world examples that we, so we can better identify it within ourselves.

Megan Ford:

I think I see a lot of times Ind the social media space when we're kind of like scrolling through and looking at what other people have or don't have or spend or don't spend. I think that's a really salient example of like what gets us caught up or trapped in Like, But they're doing that with their money, And maybe I should be doing that with Mine. Um, and so I think we look to kind of like external examples to try and give ourselves a barometer for what should be happening for ourselves, instead of really reflecting on what are my values, What are my beliefs about money, and what are my goals To? What's what am I trying to work towards? Because that's going to look different for every person, depending on who they are and what they're trying to move towards.

Bobbi Rebell:

So another example of that might be When it comes to shopping, you mentioned social media and we see what other people buy. We often can be very judgmental. We might say. Oh, they're not spending responsibly, and just kind of leave it at that and draw our own conclusions. But one thing that you have talked about in your work is asking questions, so this is not so much to social media, that might be to someone that you know, I r l. But, rather than judging them for their purchases, which may on the surface seem irresponsible and we can even take out the idea of whether they can afford it or not, But the behavior they're shopping. we tend to judge. Maybe, and this is, and you can expand on this. But maybe we asked them what was your favorite purchase And why? how did it make you feel?

Megan Ford:

Yeah, I think oftentimes when we do look at financial behaviors we think about kind of that judgment or that shame piece? Like why are they spending money on that? That doesn't make sense to me in my own head. And we do this with partners To we often have a partner who might be our financial opposite,

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah,

Megan Ford:

and so spenders and savers tend to kind of like, Um, come together because we admire different things about how that works in the other person. but You know, I think the questions to be asking when we see things, we see things happening financially with other people when we see them spending money in certain ways, would just Ee. to like to pause and reflect to ask. some questions may be internally, even externally as well, like what you mentioned. Like, what's your favorite part about you know? spending? I think that's a great and positive sort of reframe on what's happening with, Or maybe judgment around spending for other people, but I like to go back to some of the underlying things that might be behind this behavior because they're there. No doubt. Um, maybe how did they learn about the money we're spending growing up? What are they? What are they trying to cope with in their life right now? That might be expert Est, financially or through spending money? Are they trying to avoid something? Are they trying to heal from something? Um, So I think if we take kind of like, If we strip down the layers a little bit to really try and understand at its core may be what's happening here for this person we gain this new insight into. like, Oh, wow, like, there are some much deeper things that play when we're talking about money behaviors we're talking about spending, but also saving behaviors fall into this category as well. If you know someone who is, Um, you know very much, Needing and wanting to protect their assets. To you know, keep things very very close, Um, in terms of their, in terms of their money, they don't want to spend frivolously, They want to save, save, save, save, save. Um, That's indicating something is going on underneath the surface as well. questions to ask around. That would be you know. What's the meaning Of saving for you? Does that make you feel safe? Does that lend itself to feeling secure? Um? Does that is that a way that you protect yourself from something that happened in your in your past? Is that a way that you kind of work against what you knew potentially growing up? So there's so many lie deeper layers that I think we can access through just asking questions and having more conversations around what's going on underneath the surface.

Bobbi Rebll:

This is fascinating to me because on the surface we think of sort of a bad financial behavior as someone that goes out and spends too much and goes into debt, But it's also not necessarily healthy to be over-saving or over investing, rather than you know, living a balanced life, And it's important to identify those behaviors as well. Maybe not as urgent. There might not be as big red flags, but for example, there's different kinds of investing. Someone might invest in products that are too safe because they're so afraid, but they. I understand that they're not even let's say now, keeping up with inflation, or they might be having bad financial habits, like turning constantly trading, looking for the bigger better investment, or maybe getting information from sources that are less than reliable. Um,

Megan Ford:

Yeah,

Bobbi Rebell:

and I don't want to call anyone out, But you, you know where people are going on social media to get financial advice these days, and

Megan Ford:

yes,

Bobbi Rebell:

that's something that I think is worth a conversation. So how would you handle that? Tell me more about your perspective on sort of bad financial habits that might Look on the surface like someone's paying so much attention to investing. Isn't that great. But there might be some other stuff going on. How do we address that?

Megan Ford:

I think that there's you're. you're. You're pointing to some really good things related to like the darker side of perceived good financial behaviors. Like good and bad is a little bit, kind of maybe like black and white. And so I see

Bobbi Rebell:

Hm.

Megan Ford:

very much like what's in the gray space, but I think that you're pointing to some of the darker sides of perceived good or promoted money behaviors like make sure you get into the stock market and invest some of that money so that you can grow that that money over time. Um, you know saving, make sure you save, save save. We don't talk about some of the limitations or the darker sides of those behaviors that can actually Lead you into unhealthier territory. Like you're saying, Your, Your example of you know trading and Ou know taking a lot of risks with your finances. That's That's something that I think we need to remember Is just because we say something is a good financial behavior. There are aspects of that that can lead us to unhealthy places Over saving again investing and taking on too much risk versus what you know is the capacity you have. so I think that's I think. that's an important aspect to talk about too, when we're talking about financial behavior is. Yeah, there's There's definitely those darker sides.

Bobbi Rebell:

Are there tips you have on how to best address that? If you see these behaviors in somebody that you care about or you may be, you're recognizing it in yourself as you hear this.

Megan Ford:

Hm. I think if you're looking to address that with someone else, really getting curious is a point that I like to make sure to emphasize, because getting curious with others helps to keep the conversation open if we go into a conversation like that, saying like what are you? What are you doing or what's happening here or if you, if you go in with sort of an alarmist kind of tone, Um, that typically puts people on the defense. Um, takes the conversation off the rails. and where we're not really able to have a lot of productive dialogue. Then, at that point, because you know we're overly concerned, their Overly defensive and they're just you know, end up trying to prove why what they're doing is fine to us For the most part,

Bobbi Rebell:

It puts them on the defense. Yeah,

Megan Ford:

it does. it does. And so getting curious using curious, kind of language and questions. You know, I'm really wondering about what's happening with. Um, you know this investment process. Um, what's making you take Those steps in this direction and wondering, Kind of what's going on that's contributing to. Just walk me through the process of like how you're thinking about it so that you really understand, Um, from the person's perspective, who might be a little bit concerned about what's going on That you have a clear understanding of again, sort of underneath the surface what might be happening and then you can speak to that. Oh, Feel really concerned about ‘X’. Um, and so that that can open up the conversation to a deeper level, rather than just trying to. you know, Go tit for tat about what's right and what's wrong. Financially.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes, right, maybe they're taking risks that they feel they need to take because some external factor created a sense of urgency or panic that you can address separately. And what I love about your approach is that you're focusing on that issue, but you're also really still protecting the relationship. whether it's a partner relationship, a friendship, or perhaps a child. You're still keeping those lines of communication open, because very often we go in with that judgment we were talking about earlier, and that not only doesn't solve that problem, it doesn't address that problem. It also damages the relationship.

Megan Ford:

Yeah, and I think that that is one thing that we tend to think about with money and relationships is like. money is kind of the last taboo. In some respects, couples would rather talk about their sex lives than they would their financial kind of past,

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah,

Megan Ford:

or, or their financial kind of presence and futures. It's something that brings up so much shame and discomfort, And I can really kind of empathize with that because that's certainly a place that I came from with my own relationship with money as well, so I totally get it. Um, but right, it shuts down the lines of communication when we don't have these conversations when we avoid these conversations or when we bring the unhealthy kinds of narratives, or unresolved sort of narratives into, and we apply that to that conversation. So if I have the narrative, for example, that you know spending money is bad, Is negative will hurt. My financial future will hurt, and I might not know that consciously, but I'm kind of carrying something like that around with me. I am going to represent that in my conversations with other people, I'm going to bring that in. I might not say that directly, but the subtext will be there. It will

Bobbi Rebell:

Right,

Megan Ford:

present itself in how I navigate that conversation So right, having some skills and tools to be able to have more productive conversations. but even before that, being more comfortable bringing up the topic of money in an intimate relationship, Friends, family and partners is something that I'm glad is shifting with younger generations, but we, we still have a lot of work to do personally, and I think is a broader society about money conversations.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you mentioned skills and tools. I do want to give you an opportunity before we wrap up to talk about the way that you're integrating technology into this.

Megan Ford:

Yes, so I think this, this comes back to sort of the now thyself principle, M. and I think knowing thyself is a skill and a tool. But how do we do that? What kind of mechanisms can we use for knowing ourselves and our relationship with money better? Because honestly, that might be a very foreign concept to some people they're like. I have a relationship with money. What do you? What do? Sometimes it feels a little bit woo- woo still Today, not to you and I thankfully, but to others that might just not be something that they readily connect with right off the bat. So some of the work that I have been involved with recently it's a kind of ring at full circle is that I have been working with a fintech start-up called Stackin and they have created this wonderful financial wellness app that really focuses on helping you to explore your relationship with money. So kind of one of the first steps is getting in there and doing a money beliefs assessment, Kind of figuring really what money beliefs bring into these conversations with other people, Maybe into my own behaviors. How are they manifesting? And so giving you providing you, sort of this platform for understanding, exploring your relationship with money more thoroughly, and then kind of charting a pathway for you about how do I continue to walk this pathway of financial self-care? Learn more about myself as I am constantly also evolving to like we're not static in our relationship with money. So as things grow and change, how am I continuing to Pay attention to that part of myself, that area of well-being that so many of us just bypass, Um, and really giving us a way to track and one of the wonderful things that I love about the app is it's bringing together financial data with emotional data, so you're able to connect some of the pieces that you've never been able to connect before through a spreadsheet, or through maybe a like mint, or you need a budget. You know, it's the pairing of emotional and financial data that gives you an opportunity to reflect back and see. Oh, wow, two hundred dollars at H and M. How did I feel about that?

Bobbi Rebell:

Mhm.

Megan Ford:

I mean, I like that You know a couple of the pieces that I picked up. Those will be good for work. I love that for a Saturday night, but truly like, how do I feel about it, that purchase or that set of purchases? Did that bring me the happiness that I thought it would, And so, having that mechanism to reflect to kind of journal about that and then also access sort of a coach if needed, Um through a text, space platform is fantastic, or you know, getting that one on one with a financial coach to get you to that next level of financial well being, So I think it's an amazing thing that we can really utilize, and I think it's the wave of the future.

Bobbi Rebell:

I think every tool that can be helpful to us is definitely worth checking out. Tell us more about where we can learn more about you and be in touch.

Megan Ford:

Absolutely. So I'm on Instagram at money therapy with Megan and that's M, E G A N. And then you can find out more about myself and the stack in team at w, w, w, dot stackin dot com.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much.

Megan Ford:

You are so welcome. It was such a pleasure.

Bobbi Rebell:

I love how Dr. Ford is integrating technology with how we feel emotionally about money- its not just math and that is a good thing. 

This week’s extra credit assignment: 

There is a new Netflix series starring Ramit Sethi called How to Get Rich- which is kind of a click baity title for a show that is actually more about getting to the roots of your financial and lifestyle priorities rather than what the title could imply which is that you will be rich just by watching it- you will have a rich life is really what it means. Bottom line: I’m a fan and enjoyed the series and I think you will too! If you are not already please get on my free email list for more financial wellness strategies. You can subscribe at bobbirebell.substack.com or look for the link in the show notes. Those are right on my personal website bobbirebell.com. If you are enjoying this podcast make sure you are following it and please leave a review. I’m insecure- I need the validation so help me out!

Big thanks to Dr. Megan Ford for helping us be financial grownups and invest in peace of mind. 


 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate, money advice, Financial Grownup, financial wellness, bad habits
When relationships complicate money goals with Beyond your Hammock’s Eric Roberg
When relationships complicate money goals with Beyond your Hammock’s Eric Roberg
 

Episode Description: Strategies to maintain relationships with loved ones who don’t share all your money values with financial planner Eric Roberge, co-host of the Beyond Finances podcast.

Video Highlight: Eric Roberge on spending differences in relationships

Eric’s Bio:

Eric Roberge, CFP®, is the founder of Beyond Your Hammock, a Boston-based fee-only financial planning firm that specializes in financial planning and investment management for professionals in their 30s and 40s. Beyond Your Hammock’s mission is to design systems that allow fellow high-achieving professionals to get more from their money while still enjoying what they love. Eric has more than 15 years of experience as a financial advisor and has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Marketwatch, and The Boston Globe. He has been named to InvestmentNews' 40 Under 40 List, as well as Investopedia's Top 100 Most Influential Advisors and Expertise.com's Best Advisors in Boston. Eric writes for Business Insider, Forbes, and Kiplinger, and he hosts his own podcast, Beyond Finances.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Eric!

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Full Transcript:

When it comes to money, I think we can all agree we can never know too much. That's why you listen to podcasts like this, right? If we're being honest, we can never have too much, but we're going to focus here, my friends.

(00:12)
According to the Society for Human Resource Management, the majority of working Americans indicate that the personalization of seminars and webinars on investing basics in financial planning is important to them. And in that same survey, my friends, they add, "Employers would be wise to add or expand desirable benefits like financial wellness to attract and retain talent. In other words, companies need to step it up if they want to get the best people on their team, and of course, keep those people. Financial wellness strategies is the solution. We provide the top of the line financial wellness programs for employees to create financial grownups who focus on their jobs because they know they're in control of their personal finances. Learn more and get in touch at financialwellnessstrategies.com. That's financialwellnessstrategies.com. The time is now to invest in peace of mind."

(01:13)
Welcome my friends to a new episode of the Wellness for Financial Grownups podcast. I am your host, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell. This week we are going to talk about not just our relationship with money, but relationships and money. Sometimes we agree and have the same money values as the people we love most in this world, but what about when we don't? Our guest this week is Certified Financial Planner, Eric Roberge. His company has an awesome name, Beyond Your Hammock. He also hosts a podcast with his wife called Beyond Finances. So before we get to our interview as we do every week, I'm going to share a quote to get us thinking. Now, this one is from the model and TV host, Heidi Klum. Here's the quote, "What are you going to do if you have all the money in the world and all the things that you wanted to achieve in your business and you have no one to share it with? You come home alone at the end of the day, and then what?" And that's exactly it. I mean, you have all the stuff, but if there's no one there, then what?

(02:28)
Just think about it. And the reason I picked that quote, by the way, is because sometimes we have to make money compromises in order to maintain relationships. And those relationships, even though in some ways they can be costly, can also be priceless. But the question is, where do you draw that line? Well, we're going to go there in this episode, and our guest has some really great things that we can consider and some interesting strategies. In our interview Eric Roberge shares his insights on how to handle it when someone you love has different money values, and it impacts your life, not just their life, your life solo and your life together with them. For example, giving gifts to your child that you aren't so sure you want them to have, sometimes in secret.

(03:12)
Also, what if your spouse just isn't the financial grownup you expect them to be? How can you still preserve that relationship? Will it ruin the relationship? Do you just turn a blind eye if say their spending is more than you think they should be spending, but it's not going to actually truly sink your family finances? How much should you bend before you snap? Here is Eric Roberge.

(03:41)
Eric Roberge, you are a financial grownup, welcome to the podcast.

Eric Roberge (03:45):

Happy to be here, Bobbi. Talking about finances in the morning is exactly where I want to be.

Bobbi Rebell (03:49):

Always. Well, you talk about it all the time in fact, because not only do you have your own financial advisory business, which is Beyond Your Hammock, you also talk about money pretty much all the time with your business partner and wife, Kali, on Beyond Finances, which is your podcast. Let's talk about money and relationships. You work with your wife, Kali, not only on your business, but also co-hosting that podcast that I adore. What's it like to work together? Do you have any tips for when couples work together, both in the same business, which you do, two businesses together basically. And also with the pandemic, a lot of people worked from home and are still working from home, different businesses, but still together all the time.

Eric Roberge (04:32):

It's an interesting topic. I actually was just reading in Financial Planning magazine about an article that was talking about various couples in the industry that work together. And when I was reading it, I was nodding my head because a lot of people were saying, "You all need to have very specific lanes. You can't be doing the same thing. You can't be crossing over, because that's when arguments start to happen. You each have your own autonomy, you do your stuff and you connect at the end and make sure that communication stays current." That's the number one key there.

Bobbi Rebell (05:04):

Yeah, you're always emphasizing communication when it comes to money and relationships. But what if you're communicating but you're still disagreeing, especially when it comes to the larger family ecosystem. So it might be that you and your wife are in alignment with money, how you want to communicate money values to your child, but maybe another relative has different ideas. Sometimes, not that this ever happens in my family or yours, but sometimes a grandparent, an aunt, really wants to be that special one that gives us extra presents and stuff. How do you handle that, especially if it's not what you want them to be doing?

Eric Roberge (05:40):

Theoretically, we may have dealt with certain things like that in the family. It's really important to connect with your child on this. And again, I don't know how old they are in this stage. If they're one year old, we have an 18 month old, it's going to be tough. But if they're five, if they're 10, if they're 15, they're going to be able to listen and engage in a conversation. And so asking them what their experience is about whatever, about grandpa spoiling you, or about buying you all the things, how does that feel to you is a really important place to ground yourself in their reality. Because they're like, "oh, I love it, I love it's the greatest thing." You have to walk on eggshells a bit, I think, to make sure that you're not ruining their good time because you feel like your value isn't aligned with your father's value.

Bobbi Rebell (06:31):

Well, what's the difference then? And this is something for parents as well to figure out. What's the difference between generosity and spoiling a child?

Eric Roberge (06:42):

That's where this perspective comes in, because I might think it's spoiling. Clearly my father, I'm just using him as an example, he's not necessarily the spoiler, might not think so. But you can't control them and vice versa. Yet it's your child, so you have a bigger responsibility to have some sort of control over the situation.

Bobbi Rebell (07:05):

You have a financial advisory practice. What are some of the common things that people come in and they're stressed out about it when it comes to their relationships and money?

Eric Roberge (07:13):

Well, a lot. Recently, and in the beginning of 2023, it was banking. "Oh my God, is my savings account safe at the bank that I bank at?" Because everybody's failing it seems like. So understanding where your money is and whether it's covered or not under FDIC insurance, under SIPC insurance is really one that is front and center right now. Now, bigger picture, I think it's about, and my clients are all in their thirties and their forties, they may create money so they can spend a lot, but they also have to be responsible for tomorrow. So it's the delicate line between engaging in today and enjoying yourself and realizing the fruits of your labor, but also being responsible in saving for tomorrow. That line is where everybody is straddling.

Bobbi Rebell (07:58):

You wrote a book recently with your wife about optimizing your finances. Tell us about that. What are some ways that we can optimize our finances?

Eric Roberge (08:06):

The ebook is on beyondyourhammock.com. You can download that for free. It's not the basics. People we talk to have gotten the basics. They understand their budget, they know that they shouldn't overspend, they save in their 401(k), but it's taking it to the next level, it's doing it on a more sophisticated tax advantageous basis. It's understanding how to leave your money invested while still benefiting from and accessing it through a line of credit that you could put up against your investment account. It's using the right mix of Roth versus traditional 401(k)s, and maybe even after tax 401(k)s and doing a mega backdoor Roth conversion. So it gets very detailed. And I know that we don't want to go all the way down there right now, but we're talking about the optimization of these various areas where from a baseline perspective, you might have a handle on it, but are you doing as best as you possibly could in these areas? Maybe not.

Bobbi Rebell (09:07):

So in other words, going from good enough to optimizing. Back to the idea of relationships and money, what do you do when you have clients who come in and they really have very different goals, very different ideas about what they want to do with their money. How do you help them come together and have that harmony, I guess, when it comes to their money?

Eric Roberge (09:26):

I think one word there is values. One of the things that Kali and I often talk about is having your own personal values. Everybody has their own personal values, they don't have to give their personal values up because they got married. And they're usually going to be a different set of personal values, so getting your top five personal values and then having your spouse get theirs and understanding what they both are. Then the next layer is what are the family's values? And the family's values don't have to be the same as your personal values. They might rhyme, but they don't have to be the same. And therefore what you do as a family can be family oriented and then you could still have your own track to do things to engage yourself in what you really desire personally. And neither of them are going to say, now I don't like my family because I'm doing my personal thing. But it's really important to understand that there can be two different sets.

Bobbi Rebell (10:22):

So how does that actually play out? Give me an example without dishing on any specific clients.

Eric Roberge (10:27):

Well, I think one of the biggest things, and this is research is saying this a lot, is people argue about money and they get divorced about money, but the argument is usually about spending. And there's typically one spouse who is more freewheeling and spends more than the other. That doesn't mean there have to be extremes, but that's the difference. And so if one spouse is out there just spending on a whim and the other spouse is saying that they're not saving enough, there's going to be a conflict right there. And so there can be balance. Bring that back to what you value. Well, this spouse might value freedom in general, and the freedom to spend because they make the money is really important to them to just say don't spend, squashes that. But they could spend less. They could spend more specifically on things that really make sense for them and free up cash to save and help the other spouse as well.

Bobbi Rebell (11:25):

So maybe they're spending as a way to kind of compensate for them wanting to feel like they have control and maybe that the other person isn't controlling them. So there's really a whole psychology going on here.

Eric Roberge (11:37):

That's really a good point. Obviously I'm not a psychologist and I don't know that industry, but having conversations hundreds of times every year with clients that are mostly married clients, you understand the dynamics of the individual sets of people. And it's really important just to listen and to sometimes make sure that the communication from one to the other is landing, reiterating what they said to the other spouse. So the other spouse hears it from me and maybe hears it differently even though I'm saying the same thing. And once that lands and they can say, oh, that makes sense to me, now I'm more open to hearing a different path than the one that I thought we had to follow because I had this value and going to stick to it.

Bobbi Rebell (12:22):

It's interesting because even though you're there to manage their money, but you're also there to figure out what's going on and to find a way for them to come together as a couple to make these decisions, you could also then look to the person who is upset about the spending and say, well, what is it about this spending that's upsetting you?

Eric Roberge (12:40):

Yes, right. They could say, "Well, I want to save more." "Why do you want to save more?" "Well, I just don't want to not have money when I retire." What is that coming from? "Well, my grandfather ..." he could go on and on and on, and you realize that it's the money mindset that each individual brings to the relationship that stems from when you were little, like four or five years old. And you're fearing the experiences back then and each of you has a different one, so there's a reason for it. No one's trying to do bad to the other, it's just that it's ingrained in you and you have to acknowledge that.

Bobbi Rebell (13:19):

Yeah, I feel like if a lot of couples acknowledge this, and it's interesting because usually people on the surface will say that the money stress comes from lack of money, but you say it's actually the spending is the bigger issue. I find that fascinating.

Eric Roberge (13:32):

I just picture as a knob, once you get past a certain level of income, it becomes less about needs and more about choice. And that's a really great place to be. And so you can choose to spend everywhere or you can choose to spend really a lot on very focused areas, which means that the stuff that you don't spend on anymore, the frivolous things that you go to the mall and you buy $300 worth of things, feels like $300,000 sometimes, and you don't use those things, you put them in the closet. Don't do that anymore, because you don't get any value from that. But the vacation that you took that you ended up going to the five star hotel for the top line hotel and you really loved that and your whole family just came out just glowing. Don't cut that back. So, it's those types of conversations.

Bobbi Rebell (14:25):

And we hear so many stories. It's a stereotype, but a stereotype for a reason of one spouse shopping and then literally hiding the items or taking the tags off and making it look like they weren't new. So it's almost like they're cheating on them in some way, they're hiding something and being untruthful with their spouse. Have you ever dealt with that kind of, I guess you call it, is that financial infidelity to some degree?

Eric Roberge (14:47):

It is. That's what it's called. Yeah. Actually, Kali and I just talked about this on one of our podcasts, money in relationships, and she was saying it's really important to not hide those things. You can have your own bank accounts and you have your own credit cards, but if the other person doesn't know about those accounts and cards, maybe think about why that is. The lack of awareness from one spouse to the other could just lead you down a path that you don't want to get into and someone could get in trouble in the end.

Bobbi Rebell (15:13):

The final thing I did want to touch on that you actually brought up before we came on, was the idea of everything sort of being fair and equal. Everyone has this vision of things being 50-50 in a marriage. Do we need to just let go of that in a marriage, I should say, in a relationship, in any partnership. Do we need to let go of the idea that we want at least 50-50? Because sometimes it's just not.

Eric Roberge (15:33):

I don't like the idea of 50-50. I never like the idea of work-life balance being 50% work and 50% personal. I think you all have your own equilibrium and it's going to be different for everybody. So, if one person is really good with numbers and they like the engaging in spreadsheets, then maybe they are the budgeter. Maybe they help with the budget, the other person doesn't. But just because the other person isn't budgeting and you are, you're spending a lot of your time on the budgeting, doesn't mean that it's out of balance, it just means that the other person who's not budgeting needs to be doing something else. What are they good at? Are they good at scheduling conversations? Are they good at bigger picture conversations about long-term goals? And so you just find where you're good.

(16:18)
And a lot of times in financial conversations, even with both spouses involved, you still don't have a hole. Everybody's not super knowledgeable about finance and that's where a certified financial planner can be really important to fill the holes to make sure that what you're talking about is fact and not fiction. And then once you have those facts down, you can make better choices.

Bobbi Rebell (16:42):

I could not agree more. As a certified financial planner, I know you and I probably agree that there's a lot of influencers out there who can be wonderful for certain things of course, but they should never be mistaken for a certified financial planner and the expertise that they bring. So, thank you so much. Where can we learn more about you and your wife and your podcast and your business and your book and all the things? You're really busy, Eric.

Eric Roberge (17:04):

Yeah, we like to be that way. You can go to our brand new website which we relaunched, beyondyourhammock.com. You can get the free download there, Five Ways to Optimize Your Finances. You can find our podcast there too, or anywhere you listen to podcasts, Beyond Finances. Feel free to listen because it's a very intimate conversation between my wife and I about things that we deal with personally, but also that I see amongst all of my clients every day.

Bobbi Rebell (17:30):

We all want to live our best financial grown up lives. One way to do that is to know that the people that we care about are also in a good place when it comes to their money. That might mean our kids, our grandkids, and yes, even our friends. But how? I mean, it's kind of awkward. You see them struggling, pretending to know more than they do, or just making bad money decisions, but you don't know what to say. And even if you say something supportive, then what?

(18:00)
That's why I wrote Launching Financial Grownups. In Launching Financial Grownups, I share the tools and strategies so you know what to say to take the pressure off and give those you love the confidence they need. It's all about giving those we care about the right amount of help at the right time, so they can not only learn what they need to know about being financial grownups, but also be confident that they can do it and that you'll be there to cheer them on. Pick up a copy of my book, Launching Financial Grownups. I promise you'll be so happy that you did.

(18:37)
Great tips in there from Eric for those of us looking to improve our financial wellness and make peace with things that we can't control in our lives, and then maintain the relationships of those that we really care about. And just finding ways to separate our feelings for our loved ones from our feelings about their attitudes towards money. Sometimes they're things that you just can't control and you have to make peace with, and sometimes you're not going to. It's a fine line.

(19:03)
Let's get to this week's extra credit assignment. Now, I want everyone to check out my friend, David Bach's book, Smart Couples Finish Rich. He put out an updated version in 2018, so make sure to get that version. We're going to leave a link in the show notes, it is a great read. Wherever you are in your relationship, whether you're newlyweds or dating or you're enjoying your retirement together after many years together. David, by the way, incredibly generous, he even wrote the foreword to my book, Launching Financial Grownups.

(19:34)
Now, if you enjoy his book, which I know you will, so if you enjoy Smart Couples Finish Rich, make sure to follow David on Instagram. His handle is David L. Bach. D-A-V-I-D, L, B-A-C-H. And make sure to DM him and tell him that Bobbi sent you. He will get a kick out of it, trust me. He's off in Italy living his best financial grownup life. And a reminder by the way, that show notes can always be found on my personal website, bobbirebell.com, complete with links to everything relevant that I mentioned in the show, like David's book, and a free transcript. I will be following up on some of the extra credit assignments in my newsletter, so get on that list. It is at bobbirebell.substack.com, or just click on the link in the show notes or on my website, my personal website, or also my business website, Financialwellnessstrategies.com. And be sure to add Eric's podcast, Beyond Finances, to your favorite podcast list. Big thanks of course to Eric Roberge for helping us financial grownups invest in peace of mind.

(20:39)
Wellness for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, social media support and show notes by Ali Burban, artwork by Chelsea Perez. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned on the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. To get even more out of this podcast, make sure you are also on our newsletter list to get more free content to live your best financial grownup lives. There is a link in the show notes, but you can also sign up by going to bobbirebell.com or financialwellnessstrategies.com. And be a friend, share the podcast with your friends and anyone you think might like it by taking a screenshot and sharing it on social media. Make sure to tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. While you're there, follow me. If you DM me that you listen to the podcast, I will follow you back. You can also leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcast. Reading each one means the world to me. And please support our [inaudible 00:21:44] shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well.

(21:49)
Finally, my grownup friends, don't forget to invest in peace of mind. Thanks everyone.

 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate
Rich kid realities with The Myth of the Silver Spoon author Kristin Keffeler
Rich kid realities with The Myth of the Silver Spoon author Kristin Keffeler
 

Episode Description: Being born wealthy can create priceless opportunities.  But Keffeler joins us to explain how the rising generation still has to do the "inner work of money" and navigate family dynamics, financial education and intergenerational collaboration.

A little sneak peek into Kristin Keffeler’s episode!

Timestamps & Main Points:

  • 00:00 - Introduction

  • 05:24 - We have a pretty conflicted relationship with money…

  • 08:46 - there's probably lots of different ways to look at what are important financial growth milestones,

  • 11:04 - That all becomes clutter that ultimately makes it so people stop engaging or engaging in a healthy way with the money in their lives, and then it becomes a very unconscious game

  • 16:24 - if your kid doesn't need to earn money per se, is it taking a job from someone else to have this kid take this job and the income associated with it?

  • 19:44 - we all probably could do a little deeper money work

Kristin’s Bio:

Kristin Keffeler, MSM, MAPP is a thought leader, speaker, and consultant at the forefront of a global shift in family wealth advising, known as Wealth 3.0. She guides affluent and enterprising families, rising gen, and the professionals who support them in embracing the positive power of wealth and doing the “inner work of money.” Kristin is the author of The Myth of the Silver Spoon: Navigating Family Wealth & Creating an Impactful Life (Wiley, 2022), an Amazon bestseller in its category.

As the founder of Illumination360 and the Chief Learning Officer for the Denver-based Johnson Financial Group, she specializes in human motivation and behavioral change, family dynamics, family governance, rising gen education and development, and intergenerational collaboration. Drawing upon her life experience as the daughter of wealth-creating parents and her years of research and private practice advising and coaching the rising generation in affluent and enterprising families, Kristin believes that members of the rising gen are uniquely positioned to create significant impact in the world, and uses a lens of strengths to help them to ignite their potential.

Keffeler brings a multi-dimensional approach to her work. She earned an undergraduate degree in human biology and chemistry, with an emphasis on human peak performance. She also holds a Master of Science in Management with a concentration in Public Health from the University of Denver, and a Master of Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania.

Kristin’s top character strengths are love, spirituality, gratitude, perseverance, perspective, and love of learning, which she feels grateful to use in her work every day.  She lives in Boulder County, Colorado where she rides her bike every day she can, hugs her three daughters as often as possible, laughs with her husband in all the spare moments, and works side-by-side with her dog, Olive.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Kristin!

Follow Bobbi!


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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

Being a financial grownup, it's pretty hard. We know that, and that's why we need to be focusing on financial wellness. According to PWC, the majority of employees said that financial worries had a negative effect on their overall health and wellbeing. Money stress is expensive for companies. Workers are less productive and more likely to leave a job. They also have higher healthcare costs when they are worried about their money. Not surprising as if healthcare costs weren't already sky high. Financial Wellness Strategies is here to help by providing engaging and yes, delightful workshops and educational programs for employees to better control finances.

Anyone can lecture and run numbers. We talk about real life money stuff. Topics include setting up the best grown up everyday money habits, managing those social media temptations to splurge, strategies to shop for the best deals at the best time, demystifying and really understanding financial lingo, strategies to steer friends and family away from those bad money decisions, and how to know when you should ignore the math that says you should do one thing with your money and focus on your goals even when it isn't the best "financial decision". It's time for your company to invest in peace of mind with Financial Wellness Strategies. Get in touch for more information at financialwellnessstrategies.com.

Welcome my friends to the Wellness for Financial Grownups Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. I am your host, Bobbi Rebell. This week we are going to be talking about rich kid problems and yes, they do have problems and the eye rolls that may be going on out there is exactly why we are going to be talking about this. Now, have you ever thought about how great life would be if you never had to worry about money? I know I have. There are people out there like that. They're not worried about money, but that doesn't mean they are worry-free or that their life is carefree, and we're going to talk about that with the author of The Myth of the Silver Spoon, Kristin Keffeler. But first I want to share this week's quote, and once again, I enlisted my new favorite toy, ChatGPT, and here is what ChatGPT gave me when I asked for quotes about silver spoons,

"This silver spoon is a curse as well as a blessing. It gives you the advantage, but it robs you of the joy of achievement," unknown.

And actually, by the way, the ChatGPT gave me 10 pretty compelling quotes. I chose that one because it really goes to the heart of what Kristin Keffeler talks about in her book, the Myth of the Silver Spoon, specifically that yes, there are absolutely advantages to being born wealthy, and most of us would choose to be born wealthy, but it also takes away a lot of what matters to us as humans, and that is kind of complicated. In our interview, Kristen and I talk about how sometimes parents of rich kids think they're actually alleviating anxiety by telling their kids they're never going to have to work. But in fact, it's more complicated than that because it can be really damaging because then what does that say about their ability to do something?

Do they even matter? Do their parents even think they're capable? Another thing Kristen and I talk about in the interview is, should a wealthy kid take a job when maybe they're taking that job away from somebody who really needs the job for the money and that person would get it if the rich kid didn't get the job? So how do you even make peace with that? It's so complicated. Kristen talks about how people who are inheriting wealth or a family business are often dismissed by society.

But here's the thing everyone, if generational wealth is something that so many of us Americans aspire to, that is what we talk about as the American Dream. We want the next generation to be financially secure, to not have to work, to not have to worry about money. Why do we often vilify it? I want everyone to listen to what Kristin has to say very carefully because I'm betting that it is going to give you a lot to think about in terms of how we perceive the people that we meet in our life that maybe have more money, that maybe it seems that things are just handed to them and the judgements we know we're probably making even though maybe we shouldn't, but we can't help ourselves. Here is Kristin Keffeler.

Kristin Keffeler, you're on Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Kristin Keffeler:

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here Bobbi. Thank you for having me.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm excited to have you because I just finished reading and I should say I read it a few weeks ago and that I reread parts of it last night because it was so compelling, your new book, the Myth of the Silver Spoon, Navigating Family Wealth and Creating an Impactful Life. I related a lot to this having grown up in an upper middle class family with a father that became gradually more successful as I grew up. But a lot of people might roll their eyes at this and say, "Oh, come on. Really? Rich people problems." So what's your answer when you get the eye rolls?

Kristin Keffeler:

Yeah, it's super common and understandable for a couple of reasons. One is culturally, we have a pretty conflicted relationship with money and by extension, wealth, money being sort of the day-to-day way we interact with dollars and cents, paying rent, buying coffee, that kind of thing. Wealth being an abstract concept that of accumulated money, which is this whole other thing. And culturally, we have a pretty conflicted relationship with it. We both seek it and envy those that have it and also disdain those who have it, and particularly those who have inherited it. We have a psychological calculus that says they deserve it even less. That's just sort of bred into our cultural psychology right now. And so when people think about the idea that somebody from a significant and wealthy family could actually also have some psychological trip wires and emotional difficulties, people want to roll their eyes like, "Hey, you've been given every advantage. You are starting on third base, so you have nothing to complain about."

And I would say the vast majority of the rising generation clients I've worked with from wealthy families have that internalized message. And they get it. Like no one, I don't have a single client in my practice who wants anybody's sympathy. That's not what they're seeking. And I think what the challenge is that culturally, because we have such a complex relationship with money and with wealth and those who have it, we don't give any credence to the fact that those who have been raised with it may have a unique set of challenges on their path to claiming their own identity. Despite the fact that they've been given tons of privilege and opportunities, it doesn't mean that it erases the psychological challenges of growing up. And in fact, wealth can create a buffering effect that makes it even harder to grow up.

Bobbi Rebell:

And we talk a lot on this podcast about the concept of becoming a financial grown up, and in fact, having wealth can make that much more complicated because for example, when you are a parent and you have to say no to something because you simply don't have the money, it may not be pleasant, far from it, but that's what you are doing. But when you do have the money, it gets more complicated. It gets more complicated when it comes to milestones of being a financial grownup. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Kristin Keffeler:

Yeah, so from a parenting perspective, you're absolutely right. When circumstances dictate what you can say yes and no to, when you say, "That's just out of our budget, I'm sorry. If that thing is meaningful to you, son or daughter of mine, then you're going to have to figure it out." It's different than when you have enough financial resources that circumstances don't dictate that, then you actually have to know what your parenting values are. And so being grounded in those values and being able to say, "You know what, honey? I am 100% behind you and I think it's really important that you have some skin in the game in this, and so let's figure out how we can do this so that you also have buy-in to this." That's something that is sort of like a level two or level three parenting skill that supports our kids' ability to hit those milestones.

And those milestones, there's probably lots of different ways to look at what are important financial growth milestones, but I would say as you talk about to be a financial grownup to say like, "I get that I'm responsible for this and by being responsible, I'm going to understand my cash flow. I'm going to understand how I spend money and why I spend money. I'm going to understand what it means to hire an advisor and how do I hire a good advisor? What questions do I ask?" These are all things that are part of actually being a grownup and owning your whole financial life.

Bobbi Rebell:

One way that you present it in your book that I think really clarifies a lot of your messaging and a lot of your research is the concept of clutter, money related clutter. You have four areas, the podcast isn't that long, but let's go through them. So the first one is money clutter and wealth.

Kristin Keffeler:

Money clutter is basically our limiting beliefs around money and around wealth. It's the stories that we've inherited from our parents and grandparents about what money is, and that could be across the spectrum from I'll hear stories from rising gen family members who will say like, "Yeah, in our family, the message was we put our pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else. We are no different." For other families, it was like, "Honey, you'll never have to worry about having a job. We have enough for you to never have a job." Those messages are internalized and then become part of our narrative, and unless they are examined and we understand and consciously adopt them, they can be very damaging, including something that seems so freeing like, "Honey, you'll never have to have a job." More often than not, when I hear someone say that they've been told that, I see in their lives that they're very, very stuck because ultimately that gets translated to, "Wow, my mom or dad or grandma or grandpa didn't think I was capable. They just said like, I'm going to take care of you forever."

So money clutter is, it's the messages that we have that really muck up our ability to have a very clean and conscious relationship with money and with wealth and ultimately gets in the way of things like being willing to engage with like, "What's my credit score? What's my cash flow? How do financial systems and structures work?" That all becomes clutter that ultimately makes it so people stop engaging or engaging in a healthy way with the money in their lives, and then it becomes a very unconscious game.

Bobbi Rebell:

Right. And then it feeds into how we perceive ourselves, our identity, that's identity clutter.

Kristin Keffeler:

So identity is based a lot on false beliefs about who we are and who we need to be in order to be acceptable. And money can create a lot of noise around that search for identity particularly when identity formation, one of the most important times for that is late teens through one's twenties and being out in the world and building experiences and having crummy jobs and all of that kind of stuff is part of what really builds a strong identity, a sense of who am I separate from my family, what is me, what's not me? And money and wealth can create a huge buffer to one's ability to actually find that authentic voice.

Bobbi Rebell:

And speaking of authenticity, you talk about the fact in the book a lot that especially in our teenage years and early twenties when we're forming these friendships and relationships with friends and also coworkers, having that identity can also become relationship clutter because how much do you reveal about your life? And you talk about the fact that sometimes, and I forget your exact terminology, but some overstate that they use their wealth, but some people really almost hide from their wealth. I think of the scene in Crazy Rich Asians where this couple's been dating for quite some time. He's bringing her home to meet his family, and suddenly they're in first class and suddenly he's gradually revealing that in fact has a lot of wealth and he's clearly been very proactively hiding from his girlfriend who's now serious enough that she's meeting his family, and I kept thinking about that. Tell us more about relationship clutter.

Kristin Keffeler:

I love that movie because I feel like it really does capture in an engaging way, a very common experience of someone raised with financial significance. So relationship clutter, you're spot on Bobbi that identity clutter very often leads right into the relationship clutter that a lot of people can experience when they're raised in wealthy families and that is this feeling that you may not be acceptable for just who you are, but it's hard to tell and detest that with friendships and with romantic relationships when all the trappings are very attractive.

So this sense of like, "Well, are people hanging out with me because they really love me or because I have the coolest house or we have a cool vacation home, or why are these people my friends?" And being able to pressure test that authenticity is much more difficult and without oftentimes the ability to actually even fine tune that authenticity meter. It's something that takes time and takes... There's active parenting in that as parents will say, "Hey, does that really feel like that is what a good friend would do?" But when you don't get that kind of feedback and you're not in situations where you can really pressure test and see the equality of our relationship, it can extend into adult years of a lot of relationship clutter that gets in the way of having deep, rich, rewarding relationships.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you do talk in the book about the fact that many of your clients that are rising gen, which a lot of people call that gen, you call it rising gen, and I like that term. I'm going over that from now on. They have trouble forming these friendships because they do have a distrust and maybe it's also an insecurity in themselves in terms of, "Why are people friends with me," especially, and then if your clients have... You don't use the names for most people. You use a couple, which I'll leave for people to find that in your book, but I wasn't surprised at some of the names that you did use because they're famous for talking about their wealth relative to their very famous relatives. A lot of these people have names that in the community are recognizable instantly, so there's no way to hide. They even move away sometimes to different towns just to be authentically themselves.

Kristin Keffeler:

Yep.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's complicated.

Kristin Keffeler:

It's super complicated, and then it takes an immense amount of emotional awareness to detangle that identity from a family name and what other people project about that family name from who you are and trying to find that balance we talk about over and under identifying with wealth. Over identifying is melding too much with the family wealth story and not finding your own individual voice. Under identifying is running from that as far as you can and not having a healthy integration of family and family legacy into your life. And really the middle point is this hyper agency where it's really about who am I as an individual and how do I use and connect with my family wealth story and legacy and still have individuality? And being able to find that is truly a balancing act and something that takes time and effort.

Bobbi Rebell:

The last clutter is contribution clutter, and you use the word contribution rather than work, but that's what it's effectively alluding to and inspiring meaningful purpose. It's very tricky because I also think, well, and right now in the US we do have a situation where there's a lot of job availability, so you're probably not taking a job from someone else, but one thing I think about is if, do you send your kid, if your kid doesn't need to earn money per se, is it taking a job from someone else to have this kid take this job and the income associated with it? Is that ethical? That's one thing right? And then also, what if they aren't going to work for money? How does that play out? Finding your way, your purpose sounds all woo woo, but there are some very specific tangible things associated with it. Tell us more about the whole idea of contribution clutter.

Kristin Keffeler:

This one is such a big one. They're all so big and important and I did use the word contribution instead of work because work has such a strong connotation with a transaction of money and it's not necessarily a core element of clearing this clutter and becoming a financial grownup to have to work for money. There is something that is helpful about it actually because it is the way that the vast majority of your peers are going to be experiencing how they impact the world and how they get rewarded for that. And there's something that in that cycle that can be self-validating. But I used contribution because that's not everybody's path to really figuring out how to engage and impact the world. And I think the core piece to this one is the recognition that removing the financial need to work doesn't remove the human need to work.

We are wired as beings from birth, we are wired to see what we do, you drop the rattle out of the crib and what happens in return is someone come running, that is just part of this action consequence is just part of how we are wired and ultimately our ability to experience true meaning comes in some form or another through work. That work can be defined in lots of different ways. It can be defined through active parenting, it can be defined through philanthropic work, it can be defined through a really high end high drive career, but we have a human need to work and removing the financial need doesn't remove that human need. But very often we have those things tangled up and that's where I see rising gen really struggle is when there's not a financial need to work and then they don't really go find their true metal, really figure out their edge, then they can get really stuck and feel very inconsequential.

Bobbi Rebell:

And one thing you point out in your book is that inheritors are often discounted by society. It's one of the few things that everyone feels it's open season to discount somebody who has inherited wealth or grow up with a family business maybe they grew as they were growing up, it's not always straight up inherited, but maybe they might have a family business that they have to grow into, but sometimes they aren't always want to take over the family business. So it's not always so rosy on that end. When advice do you have, not so much for the inheritors, but for everybody else who might be listening to this who might have that pang of envy, jealousy, or just not knowing how to deal with their friend who maybe they don't talk about it, but they may have a friend that is in this category that they know has a lot of money and is never stressed out about money and it seems to have it all at least?

Kristin Keffeler:

Right. My advice there would be that across the economic continuum, we all probably could do a little deeper money work. We could all understand a little bit more about what our relationship is to money and how to come into a healthier conscious relationship with it and that recognizing that we will always have people in our lives who have more than us. No matter where you fall, there's someone else who has more and that we can easily ascribe a vision for what that must be like for them, right? Oh, I feel stressed about paying rent. My friend who has more than me probably doesn't feel stressed about paying rent, so their life must be better. And I would say we all have our own journey and I have never met someone who doesn't have some amount of pain or growth that they're working through in their life regardless of whether they have money or don't have money.

And so the humanity is where the place that we can connect and I really feel like our ability to use what we have, we have a capitalistic system, so we're not going to change that tomorrow and in a capitalistic system there are... it incentivizes the creation of wealth. That's what capitalism does. There's a huge opportunity to use the lever of what's already in our system, which is the power of concentrated wealth to really turn outward and create an immense amount of good in the world, but we all have to have a more healthy conscious relationship with the money that we have and those in our community who have money and right now, we continue to have a push-pull, us them mentality around this and I feel like we're missing a huge opportunity to use the lever of wealth in the system that we currently have.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much for joining me. Tell me more about how people can be in touch with you. I know your book is for sale all over the place, but where can people find out more about you?

Kristin Keffeler:

Yeah, thank you Bobbi. I'm on LinkedIn so you can find me at Kristin Keffeler, K-R-I-S-T-I-N K-E-F-F-E-L-E-R, and my website is Illumination 360 I-L-L-U-M-I-N-A-T-I-O-N 360. And I would love to meet there and have more conversations.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much. The Myth of the Silver Spoon is an amazing book, so we really appreciate you joining us and sharing more of your insights.

Kristin Keffeler:

Thank you, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:

We all want to live our best financial grownup lives. One way to do that is to know that the people that we care about are also in a good place when it comes to their money. That might mean our kids, our grandkids, and yes, even our friends, but how? I mean, it's kind of awkward. You see them struggling pretending to know more than they do or just making bad money decisions, but you don't know what to say and even if you say something supportive, then what? That's why I wrote Launching Financial Grownups. In Launching Financial Grownups, I share the tools and strategies so you know what to say to take the pressure off and give those you love the confidence they need. It's all about giving those we care about the right amount of help at the right time so they can not only learn what they need to know about being financial grownups, but also be confident that they can do it and that you'll be there to cheer them on. Pick up a copy of my book Launching Financial Grownups. I promise you'll be so happy that you did.

It really hit home when Kristin said, "Removing the financial need to work doesn't remove the human need to work." The work can be defined in many ways and she says it can be active parenting or it can be philanthropic work or a hard driving career, but it needs to be something. Time now for our extra credit assignment, this one, not so hard to guess. We talked about how basically the whole premise of Crazy Rich Asians is that this couple is dating and the guy hides his wealth and then as it is gradually revealed, and it is a large amount of money and a large amount of social pressure, it throws a wrench in their relationship. So if you haven't seen Crazy Rich Asians, I want you to check it out and if you have, I want you to watch it again with a perspective of, "Why was this rich kid moving halfway around the world and very actively hiding his wealth?"

He wanted to be seen for who he was, not what he was worth, self-worth, not net worth if you will. Just think about it. All right, I'm going to share more insights on this in a future newsletter, so I want everyone to be subscribed. It is free. You can subscribe at bobbirebell.substack.com or use the link in the show notes. You can get both on my website at bobbirebell.com. And like I said, free, totally free. Big thanks to the Myth of the Silver Spoon author Kristin Keffeler for helping us invest in peace of mind and live our best lives as financial grownups. Wellness For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, social media support and show notes by Ali Bourbon, artwork by Chelsea Perez. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned on the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

To get even more out of this podcast, make sure you are also on our newsletter list to get more free content to live your best financial grownup lives. There is a link in the show notes, but you can also sign up by going to bobbirebell.com or financialwellnessstrategies.com and be a friend. Share the podcast with your friends and anyone you think might like it by taking a screenshot and sharing it on social media. Make sure to tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1. While you're there, follow me. If you DM me that you listen to the podcast, I will follow you back. You can also leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcast. Reading each one means the world to me and please support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Finally, my grownup friends, don't forget to invest in peace of mind. Thanks everyone.

 

 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate
Finding your money purpose with Money Made Easy author Allison Baggerly
Finding your money purpose with Money Made Easy author Allison Baggerly
 

Episode Description: Inspired Budget’s Allison Baggerly shares her financial wellness strategies to manage anxiety, stay motivated to reach money goals and get comfortable when your goals are not the same as your friends and family.

A little sneak peek into Allison Baggerly’s episode!

Timestamps & Main Points:

  • 00:00 - Introduction


Allison’s Bio:

Allison Baggerly is an author, podcaster, money coach, and founder of Inspired Budget. As a former teacher, Allison blends her talents for teaching with her passion for personal finances to help others learn how to start budgeting and build a life they love.

Allison and her husband paid off over $111,000 of debt on 2 teacher salaries while growing their family. During the process, she learned how to take back control of her money, stay consistent with paying off debt, and stop emotional spending once and for all.

Allison has been featured in notable media outlets such as Forbes, Business Insider, and Parents as a budget expert who gives women a step-by-step process to break free from the grueling paycheck-to-paycheck cycle. Her book, Money Made Easy, offers a variety of solutions to help you write a budget that works, pay off debt, and have a better relationship with money.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

The other day I was watching the news trying to relax, and there was a story that came on about using confetti, yes, confetti, to de-stress. I have to admit, it was pretty appealing. By the way, it's called The Confetti Project if you want to look up what the story was actually about. But guess what is the top thing that we stress about and why we apparently need all this confetti? Well, given that you are listening to this podcast, you guys know the answer. It is money. According to the American Psychological Association, money continues to be the top source of stress for Americans, and that's where Financial Wellness Strategies comes in.

Financial Wellness Strategies provides educational resources for companies' employees so that they can find the balance between financial wealth and mental health. Financial literacy is absolutely important, but we also need to go beyond academics and learn how all of this actually fits into our real lives and what we want to accomplish with our hard-earned money. Learn more about how you and your company can invest in peace of mind at financialwellnessstrategies.com. That's financialwellnessstrategies.com.

Welcome, welcome my friends. I am your host, Bobbi Rebell, certified financial planner and author of Launching Financial Grownups. Before we get to our guest, I'm going to start us off as we do every week now with a quote to get us thinking. This one is from Jason Vitug. He is author of Happy Money Happy Life. We had him on a few episodes ago. We'll leave the link to that in the show notes, but here is the quote. He actually posted this on LinkedIn, so follow him there, follow him everywhere. He's really not only entertaining, but has a huge amount of wisdom he shares.

But here's the quote that really got me thinking, "I learned sometime ago that I simply didn't want to take vacations from my life. I wanted to figure out how to create a life I didn't need a vacation from." Right? That gets you thinking. Maybe we're so busy figuring out what's next in our life that we forget that we should just create the life that we want to be living and we don't feel this constant need to go on vacation. Not that you can't go on vacation, but really think about making changes in your life so that you don't feel you need to escape. I think that's what Jason's getting at. DM me. Let me know what you think.

My Instagram, by the way, is B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L-1, the number one. All right, time for our guest. It is Allison Baggerly. She has been here before, but I asked her to come back to talk about her new book, Money Made Easy. The title alone makes you feel better, right? Let's get to it. Here is Allison Baggerly. Allison Baggerly, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast again.

Allison Baggerly:

Thank you, Bobbi. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm happy to have you back to celebrate the launch of your book, Money Made Easy, best title ever, following up on your successful multimedia platform Inspired Budget. You actually, by the way, have two podcasts we should mention as well.

Allison Baggerly:

Yes, I do. I feel like I'm doing it all, but it was not all at once. But yes, my new book is coming out April 4th, and then I have a podcast, Inspire Budget Podcast, and then I get to do a really fun podcast with my friend Chris called, This Is Awkward Podcast. It's fun.

Bobbi Rebell:

Chris Browning, also a favorite guest here. Yes, okay, wait, so we have to talk about this new book, Money Made Easy. Like I said, best title ever. One of my favorite parts of the book is you start off talking about your family. I'm not going to say too much about it because I want to leave the surprise for the book, but a lot of important things happened that started your journey to focusing on budgeting and controlling and hopefully getting rid of your debt. You talk a lot about the importance of finding your catalyst. Tell us about that.

Allison Baggerly:

Oh my goodness! I think that so often we walk through life and we're just doing things that we are supposed to do and we're not always thinking fully about it, because life is stressful and it's overwhelming and it's exhausting. However, sometimes we have to make big choices in our life, especially when it comes to our money, whether it is to start investing and prioritize investing or pay off debt, which is what I was doing. Sometimes we need a reason because we just lose motivation without a catalyst. In the book, I really lay out my own catalyst for change. And in a surprising twist, it wasn't me at all. It wasn't even my husband.

When we decided to really take control of our money and learn how to budget, pay off debt and start investing, it wasn't even about us to begin with. But during the process, I came to learn that I am enough. I am reason enough to change my financial situation, but it didn't start out like that. I feel like a lot of people, it doesn't start out like that for them. They hit this rock bottom moment. The first part of the book is really focusing on finding a reason to make a financial change that might be uncomfortable for a period of time, but not forever.

Bobbi Rebell:

How do you find that?

Allison Baggerly:

Oh my goodness!

Bobbi Rebell:

I know for you it was largely your kids. Now I just spoiled part of it.

Allison Baggerly:

That's okay.

Bobbi Rebell:

What if someone is not in a circumstance, but they feel lost and they're looking for that north star?

Allison Baggerly:

It doesn't always have to be held in our rock bottom moments. I think it's very easy to say there's going to be something happens in your life. For instance, I got pregnant. That was our catalyst, and we couldn't afford daycare. That was a big moment in my life, this massive shift. This very much the clouds parted, everything shown down, the light bulb went off. But that's not the same for everyone, and it's okay that that's not the same. I think that your catalyst can be just the small annoyances in your life, annoyances like, oh my gosh, let me think about this. I'm getting paid on Friday, but my car payment is due on Thursday.

Do I have enough money? Or just wanting to be able to take trips that maybe you can't afford, or you're tired of that interest rate on your credit card debt, or you're frustrated thinking about the fact that, okay, I'm 35 years old and I haven't quite safe for retirement. And oh yeah, my parents might need support along the way because they haven't really saved for retirement either. Just that awareness really can be a catalyst. It all comes back to awareness and being intentional. I think so often it's hard to do that. We live very busy lives, very busy schedules.

What I recommend doing is just taking time to sit down and maybe even journal out just, what are you wanting to change with your money and why? Just being able to almost go through that process can reveal to you a catalyst for change that is something that is strong enough for you to stick with whenever you might be distracted when it comes to your money.

Bobbi Rebell:

On point, when we talk about wellness for financial grownups. And in fact, my favorite chapter, to no one's surprise probably, is chapter five, in case you have the book in front of you, pay off debt while enjoying life. This is really hard because sometimes we do get motivated to do these things that we know are good for us financially, but we do it to the elimination of just living our lives. You and I talked before we started recording about these vacations and the mixed feelings that we have when we splurge on what we feel is discretionary, but maybe it's not. But how do you balance that?

I mean, do you just go all in? A lot of people feel that you go all in and just spend all their money paying down their debt or saving up for a goal, but then life is going by, and especially for parents, your kids are getting older. You don't want them to "outgrow" Disney World before you can afford it.

Allison Baggerly:

Yes, and this is such an important thing to talk about, and I don't think enough people talk about it, Bobbi. I really don't. I think that there are so many people out there, so many financial books that tell you, do this, do this, and do that and live without any spending for a period of time. It's okay, just sacrifice everything and it'll be worth it. But I tried that, I did, and it sucked. I ended up going completely opposite and spending money just as a way to feel like I had some control. During our debt-free process, I had to find a way to balance what I wanted for my money goal, which was to pay off debt, but also what I wanted for my daily life, which was to be able to spend money on things that were important to me.

But I think here's the key is that we sometimes don't know what is important to us and what we want to spend money on. We are pulled in so many directions and we see what everyone else is spending money on, and we think that everything is of the same priority level, but it's not. In this chapter, what I talk about is creating a payoff debt process, but also prioritizing those other expenses so you can still spend money on what you want and reach your goal at the same time. Because like you said, I want to be able to have those experiences with my kids. That is a priority for me, but other things aren't. I can cut out something so that I can still reach my money goals and have those experiences.

Bobbi Rebell:

What would be an example?

Allison Baggerly:

Oh my goodness! An example, here's an example in my life. My example. Now, we don't have any debt other than our mortgage, but let's say that we did. Let's say that I had to go buy a new car. I get in a car wreck, and I have to go buy a new car. I don't have the money to pay for it in cash, and so I decide to go finance a car. My thought process would be, okay, I don't care as much about the car I drive as much as I do about the experiences I have with my children or the travel. Now, other people might be different. Other people might really care about the car. And I'm not saying that's wrong.

You have to figure out what you care about. But for my example, I would rather finance a used car if I had to that was not fancy. I've always thought I wanted to drive a Range Rover. But when it comes down to it, I don't really want that, as much as I want to be able to take at least one family vacation every year that I do spend 5,000 to $6,000 on. In my mind, I make the decision, I would rather spend less on that car and have that money earmarked for a family vacation. It's just making those choices in a head space that is what's important to you and your family, not what everyone else says is important.

Bobbi Rebell:

You talk in the book a lot about coping with financial anxiety. Do you have advice for people on that?

Allison Baggerly:

Oh my gosh! I mean, as someone who has financial anxiety and just general anxiety and depression...

Bobbi Rebell:

Don't we all?

Allison Baggerly:

I know, right? I feel like, I don't know, something happened between after the year 2008 where everyone was like, okay, we've all been through it. I would say with financial anxiety, a lot of times we let our anxiety overwhelm us when it comes to our money, and I do this a lot. I will let my feelings and anxiety take over my mind. What I have to do personally and what I recommend anyone do is to actually stop, acknowledge the thought, and then ask yourself if it's actually true. I learned this, this is not my own process, but I learned this through Byron Katie, her book, Loving What Is and the work. I've been able to adapt that to really dealing with financial anxiety.

For instance, if you're having a money anxiety thought of, oh my gosh, I'm going to get laid off. My company is scaling back. I'm going to get laid off. I'm going to lose my job, and I'm not going to be able to pay my mortgage and my house is going to get foreclosed on. That is very much a whole story and anxiety thought. Well, then you ask yourself, well, is it true? Do you know for sure you're going to get laid off? Well, no, I don't. I know that for sure. If it happens, do you know you won't be able to make your mortgage payment? Well, no, I have money in savings.

Being able to work through those thoughts and acknowledge that not every thought that comes into our mind is necessarily true, we can't tell the future, for me, it alleviates some of the anxiety, not all, but some of it to where I can not make impulsive decisions or be very reactive based on my fears or anxiety.

Bobbi Rebell:

You also talk about making progress visual.

Allison Baggerly:

Oh, yes. I love good visual progress. Here's the deal, working on paying off debt, it is a very abstract thing. There's these numbers floating around and sometimes... Actually not sometimes. There will come a time when you lose motivation and you want to give up, but that's why making your progress on your debt payoff progress or any money goal you have, you can really make it visual is so important because what I did when we were paying off debt is it was a long journey for us. It was four and a half years. It was not this quick four month process or eight month process. It was lengthy. It was long.

It was overwhelming, and it wasn't fun overall. Most of the time, it wasn't fun. There were moments when I was very motivated and I didn't need to be reminded why we were sacrificing for a season. But then there were moments when I was like, nope, not worth it. I feel like we've been doing this forever. It's never going to end. And that is when, when I hit those moments, I would go and I would color in on a little homemade debt-free thermometer I made, I would color in my progress. I saved it for those moments when I needed the motivation.

And being able to visually see, "Oh my gosh, we are making progress. Wow, this is actually working. It might not feel like it's working, but I can visually see that it's working," that gave me the motivation that I might have been lacking in the moment. I think keeping your progress visual is wonderful for motivation. It's also wonderful just for a benchmark especially if you're doing this alongside a partner or if you're with a family and the whole family is along for the ride, it's a really good visual for others to just gauge how you're doing financially.

Bobbi Rebell:

And that can work for any financial goal, not just for debt, which is one reason why I love that. You also love inspiring quotes. Before I let you go, send us off with an inspiring quote.

Allison Baggerly:

Oh my goodness! I think that it's okay for me, I would say I am willing to sacrifice for a season to live the rest of my life in abundance. Sacrifices don't have to be miserable. They don't have to be difficult. They can be very small sacrifices that add up to a life that is just completely filled with abundance.

Bobbi Rebell:

I love it. Thank you so much. Tell us more about where we can find you. I know the book is going to be everywhere, Money Made Easy, but tell us more about you and everywhere you are.

Allison Baggerly:

Of course. Of course, you can get the book at Barnes & Noble, Amazon, anywhere you want to buy books, Money Made Easy. If you like listening to podcasts, which I'm guessing you do because you're listening right now, then you can check out my podcast. I have the Inspired Budget Podcast, and I also host a podcast with my friend Chris called This Is Awkward, where we discuss people's awkward money situations. It's really fun. And then you can always find me online at inspiredbudget.com or on social media at @InspiredBudget.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much, Allison.

Allison Baggerly:

Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:

We all want to live our best financial grownup lives. One way to do that is to note that the people that we care about are also in a good place when it comes to their money. That might mean our kids, our grandkids, and yes, even our friends. But how? I mean, it's kind of awkward. You see them struggling pretending to know more than they do or just making bad money decisions, but you don't know what to say. Even if you say something supportive, then what? That's why I wrote Launching Financial Grownups. In Launching Financial Grownups, I share the tools and strategies so you know what to say to take the pressure off and give those you love the confidence they need.

It's all about giving those we care about the right amount of help at the right time, so that they can not only learn what they need to know about being financial grownups, but also be confident that they can do it and that you'll be there to cheer them on. Pick up a copy of my book, Launching Financial Grownups. I promise you'll be so happy that you did. I love that. Allison ended our interview with such a meaningful quote talking about the idea of sacrificing just for a season to live in abundance for our lives. We face so many obstacles that cause us anxiety, they seem so ominous at the time, but Allison points out that they are often just a season of our lives.

Okay, time now for our extra credit segment. It's a goodie. Allison hosts a podcast with Chris Browning called This Is Awkward. That's actually not the extra credit assignment, although definitely check out This Is Awkward. It's a great podcast. Anyway, that made me think about what was one of the most awkward scenes that I have ever seen on a television show. It was the first scene of the first episode of the first season of the HBO show Girls. You can see it now on H b o Max. It was more than a decade ago. I actually feel like it's grown in relevance. Here's the summary in short, basically Lena Dunham's character, Hannah Horvath, is very focused on her purpose as a writer.

She's writing her memoir because I guess she just thinks that she's the voice of her generation. She references a job, but she's caught off guard and kind of offended frankly at dinner with her parents when they seemingly out of the blue tell her that they are cutting her off. Literally the mom says, "No more money," because she doesn't seem to be getting it. Then it comes out that this job she has is actually an internship with no paycheck, and it's been two years since college. The conversation gets more eye-opening from there, incredible entitlement and incredibly awkward conversations about money and the lack of communication between the generations and just a lack of awareness on both sides.

But I have a lot more thoughts on this and I want to hear yours. I'm going to be putting the clip of it. You can find it on your own, but get on my newsletter list because I'm going to put the clip in the newsletter and I'm going to also have some additional perspective. And then the great thing about Substack, which I just switched the newsletter too, is that you can go there and you can also leave your comments. You can go there and sign up for the newsletter at bobbirebell.substack.com. Super easy. We'll also leave a link in the show notes to sign up for the newsletter.

You can also, by the way, get it in the show notes at bobbirebell.com under the podcast tab, which, by the way, you also can get the free transcript of this entire podcast. I'm excited to hear though what you guys think about this iconic first scene. So many thoughts, as I said. All right, big thanks to Allison Baggerly, author of Money Made Easy, for helping us all be financial grownups. Wellness for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, social media support and show notes by Alliee Borbon. Artwork by Chelsea Perez.

You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned on the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. To get even more out of this podcast, make sure you are also on our newsletter list to get more free content to live your best financial grownup lives. There is a link in the show notes, but you can also sign up by going to bobbirebell.com or financialwellnessstrategies.com. And be a friend. Share the podcast with your friends and anyone you think might like it by taking a screenshot and sharing it on social media. Make sure to tag me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1.

While you're there, follow me. If you DM me that you listen to the podcast, I will follow you back. You can also leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts. Rating each one means the world to me. Please support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Finally, my grownup friends, don't forget to invest in peace of mind. Thanks, everyone.

 

 
Bobbi Rebell Kaufman
How to be financially generous without enabling bad money habits
How to be financially generous without enabling bad money habits
 

Episode Description: Financial therapist Lindsay Bryan-Podvin joins Bobbi to share strategies on how to provide the right kind of support for those we care about, without undermining their journey to being financial grownups. We also discuss managing friends who are so generous it becomes awkward, and what to say to a loved one who is spending for emotional reasons that is supportive without being judgmental. 

A little sneak peek into Lindsay’s episode!

Timestamps & Main Points:

00:00 - Introduction

02:03 - “Know what you own and know why you own it.”

05:58 - There's this fine line between being kind and being conscientious.

10:26 - I think of generosity as being clear and kind.

12:57 - It makes it really challenging for that adult child to ever kind of learn the importance of taking ownership.

15:52 - There's so much opportunity to deepen further with your parent or with your adult child if you are connecting and talking about things besides that dynamic of I give and you take.


Lindsay’s Bio:

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (she/her) is a biracial financial wellness expert, speaker, and author of the book "The Financial Anxiety Solution." A practicing social worker since 2012, she uses a shame-free approach to help people get their minds and money in balance by focusing on the intersection of money and mental health using financial therapy. While financial literacy is important, she champions the belief that money is rooted in emotions and impacted by the systems around us. She has a degree in sociology and a Master’s in Social Work with certificates in Financial Social Work and Financial Therapy. She lives with her partner and their dog on the occupied land of the Fox, Peoria, and Potawatomi peoples, also known as Michigan.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Lindsay!

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:

Welcome my friend to the Wellness for Financial Grownups podcast. I'm so glad you're here. I'm your host, Bobbi Rebell. I'm a certified financial planner and the author of a couple of books about Financial Grownups. The most recent one is Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart.

I also run an education and consulting company called Financial Wellness Strategies, and I spent my earlier career days as a business news anchor and personal finance columnist working at places including Reuters, CNBC, and CNN. Each week on the podcast, we share strategies, not solutions, we'll explain, for living our best Financial Grownup lives.

So I say strategies, not solutions for a very specific reason. Our lives, not problems to be solved, my friends. We are in a constant state of adapting and evolving as humans. We are on our own journeys, but we benefit from the support, knowledge and perspective that we can get from each other. And that is the purpose of this podcast.

This week's guest is Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, and we are going to be focusing on the difference between generosity and enabling those that we love and care about in our lives. But first, as we will do every week, I want to share a quote to get us thinking about our own wellness as Financial Grownups. This week's quote is from legendary money manager Peter Lynch.

He is best known as the manager of the Magellan Fund at Fidelity Investments. He was there, the big years were 1977 to 1990. He averaged, get this guy's, almost a 30% return, 29.2 annual return to be exact. Consistently more than double the stock market, making it the best performing mutual fund in the world. And he was a big proponent of value investing and advocated investing in what you know.

So here is this week's quote, "Know what you own and know why you own it." Know what you own and know why you own it. And I think this is an interesting metaphor for so much in life. It reminds me of Marie Kondo's focus on only owning things that bring us joy. We buy stuff for all kinds of reasons and there is nothing wrong with buying something because you like it and you can afford it.

But take stock, pun intended in this case, this week of things that you own and really give some thought to why you own it. And then take action or no action from there. Spring cleaning for Financial Grownups. Let's get to this week's guest. So as I mentioned, financial wellness expert and social worker, Lindsay Bryan-Podvin.

She is the author of the book, the Financial Anxiety Solution. And Lindsay is all about using a shame-free approach to help people get their minds and money in balance by focusing on the intersection of money and mental health. Now among the highlights of our interview, we talk about how to manage an overly generous friend when it gets to an awkward level. And look, I hope that hasn't happened to you, but sometimes it happens.

Sometimes people are really well-intentioned and they know that you can't afford something, so they're always offering to pay for stuff and it gets a little weird. We're also going to talk about how to delicately tell someone that you know is overspending to get control of the situation. And then we're also going to touch on how to be generous but not undermine someone's efforts to be a Financial Grownup. Here is Lindsay Bryan-Podvin. Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, you are a Financial Grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Thanks Bobbi. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm so appreciative of you being here because you have so much to share with our audience. You are not only a financial therapist, but you're also a content creator. I want you to tell us more about what you do before we get into our conversation.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Sure. So for people who don't know what financial therapy is, I have a background in clinical social work and I've been a practicing therapist for over a decade. And then I have additional specialty training in financial psychology and in financial social work.

So in my therapy practice, I help people with the emotional side of money. And then as Bobbi mentioned, outside of my therapy practice, I love helping people understand how our emotions and our mental health intersect with the way that we interact with money. And I provide a lot of content through YouTube and Instagram and my blog all about how our money and emotions are connected.

Bobbi Rebell:

And they are very connected. And that's one thing we're going to talk about today. This episode where we're going to be talking about the difference between generosity and enabling was inspired by our mutual friend Melanie Lockhart. She has a podcast called the Mental Health and Wellness Podcast. I think I got that name right.

Everyone should check it out. She spoke about this topic and I thought about it and I said, "You know what? I want to talk to Lindsay about how this can apply to Financial Grownups." Because being a Financial Grownup, we want to make sure that we are taking care of ourselves and the people around us, but it can get a little bit nuanced because we want to be generous.

In fact, we talk a lot about generosity on the podcast, but at the same time, sometimes that can cross into some unexpected consequences and we can become enablers of some financially... Well, just some damaging behavior that we can basically undermine good financial habits. So first of all, what's your general take on this topic?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

My general take on this topic is that for adults who are in this sandwich generation of trying to raise children, stepchildren or children in the community and aging parents, if they are doing okay financially, it can be really easy to slip from being helpful or being thoughtful into enabling a child or into enabling an adult caregiver.

There's this fine line between being kind and being conscientious and being generous and potentially making it tricky for somebody else who is able-bodied and of sound mind to take care of their own financial needs. So when we think about enabling from the therapy lens, enabling is where a person, we call them the giver or rescuer swoops in to prevent somebody who's engaging in behaviors that might be harmful from facing any of their natural consequences.

So when it comes to financial enabling, that could look like maybe swooping in and paying for your adult child's rent because they have decided to spend their money on going out and taking their friends out. Right? That would be a version of enabling, is you're preventing that adult child from facing those natural consequences of what happens if their rent is late.

And what happens over time is that it can create this unhealthy pattern where the giver or the helper is constantly kind of feeling like their role within this person's life is to save them or is to rescue them, and then they can kind of become dependent on the feeling of being the savior. So it gets to be really murky really quick.

And when we think about generosity, I like to think about it more of kind of your one-time offerings or having really transparent, generous conversations with an adult child about the financial gifts that you might provide them. For example, if you have an adult child who just graduated from college, maybe you say to them, "My generous gift to you is that I will help subsidize your rent for the first three months while you're getting on your feet.

Then after that I'm going to pull that money back. Not because I'm mean, not because I'm cutting you off, but because I want you to learn how to manage your money. And I understand that those first few months can be a little bit tricky getting on your feet." So the generosity is where you give something clearly, kindly and without the expectation of something in return, whereas enabling is you giving something with the hopes that you're going to get something in return.

Bobbi Rebell:

Right. And the classic situation that we hear about very often, and I know my friend, David Bach has talked about this quite a bit, is your child or someone that you care about, someone that you have financial ties to. It could be, for example, even a romantic partner, they get into credit card debt and you bail them out and you say you're not going to do it again, but then it happens again and maybe the consequences would hit them and you. So how do you handle that?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Yeah. Oh, it's so tricky in those situations. So when it comes to credit card debt in that cycle that we tend to see happen a lot where somebody racks up credit card debt, they either work really hard to pay it down or they pay it down with their partner and then they get back into it again.

When you're going to have a generous conversation with somebody like that, you may say, "Look, in order to prevent this from happening again, let's put a freeze on your credit and let's maybe get you into therapy to figure out why this is happening again and again."

Because it is probably more likely that they are trying to scratch some sort of itch with that shopping. Because when we think about shopping, it releases a host of feel good brain chemicals for us. So it makes it really challenging to stop shopping if that's somebody's kind of go-to coping skill. Right? When we shop, we get that rush of serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin or endorphins depending on what we're shopping for, time of day, et cetera.

So it could be a loving and generous thing to do to say to your partner, "Look, we're going to pay this off together. Let's freeze your credit and let's make sure that I as your partner am not enabling this behavior and you are also getting the help that you need to find some other healthy outlets to get those feel good brain chemicals outside of shopping."

Bobbi Rebell:

A lot of this generosity versus enabling can get very nuanced when it comes to friendships, especially when...

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

People have different levels of financial resources and often through nothing directly through their own actions.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

So let's say a scenario. You've got young people that have jobs, they're both working hard, but one maybe has family money and has a little more wiggle room financially than the other. The one with more money wants to go somewhere and is perfectly capable of paying for everyone. We've got the person, "Drinks on me." That's great, that's very generous. But talk to me about how does that really play out in terms of this whole scenario?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Again, I think of generosity as being clear and kind. So if you are the person who's in a financial situation to be able to treat your friends, that's perfectly fine, but also check in with them. Because as the person on the receiving end, this person being generous saying, "Let me take you on a trip. Let me take you out to a nice dinner.

This feels really good for me." The person on the receiving end actually might be incredibly uncomfortable and they might be like, "Look, I don't mind getting a round in drinks every now and then from you. That feels really good, but taking us to your family's Swiss chalet feels really uncomfortable for me.

And I actually feel more out of my element. And I know you mean for it to be kind, but for me it just feels really uncomfortable." So again, just being clear and kind and also maybe even addressing something that might be more uncomfortable, which is for the person who is not in that financial situation to say to this giver, "Hey, I would love to do more traveling together, but what's in my budget is more of splitting an Airbnb.

Is that something you're comfortable with? Would you be interested in kind of traveling my way? And if you want to take us out to dinner once while we're there, great. But I don't want to feel like I'm kind of out of my league either." So having some of those more uncomfortable conversations can help for the generosity and for your friend to feel like they're a part of the conversation as well.

Bobbi Rebell:

It also can come into play when there are mixed messages in families. So for example, can you talk about that? Because that's something that is very precarious because you're dealing with multiple different relationships.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

And how we intersect.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Yeah. So a kind of classic example of this is nice parent and mean parent or good cop, bad cop. That kind of dynamic where you have one parent who likes to be really kind, feels it's very important to be generous, but that generosity often sometimes is met from their partner with, "You're enabling our kid" or "You're never letting them face natural consequences."

And it can set up this weird triangle where the adult child knows who to go to when they need their cellphone bill paid or when they need their parking ticket paid. They don't go to the tougher parent, they go to the parent who they know is going to just log into that account and pay that bill for them. But then it sets up this kind of divide between all of them because you've got the parent who's trying to provide that tough love and say, "Look, you need to kind of face some of these natural consequences" with their partner who's eager to swoop in and clean up.

And then it makes it really challenging for that adult child to ever kind of learn the importance of taking ownership for those types of things. And it's not to say that if you have generous parents, you should never ask for them or of them anything. I think most parents will agree, if I have the means to help out my kid, I want to do that. And we want to make sure that it's more of a safety net than a enabling situation.

And what I mean by that, a safety net is more of a one time if your adult child is in a crisis helping out financially. So for example, if an adult child is renting and the fridge breaks, maybe the parents would say, "Look, we'll buy you meals or we'll buy you groceries until the fridge gets fixed." That would be an example of a safety net financial support versus like, "You can just use our credit card for groceries from here on out," which might be more enabling.

Bobbi Rebell:

Does the response from a parent have to, I mean, how do you sort of figure out the difference? I mean, I guess it's looking at is it something that they caused or that they're... In other words, the refrigerator breaking, I mean, that's just not their fault, but then again, that's also life and maybe you shouldn't be there. It's tricky because I know I would be there.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm going to write the check to fix the fridge. And I think most parents are, even if it's going to be to their own financial detriment, which is something that we talk a lot about with launching Financial Grownups is it's great to help your kids, but the greatest gift you can give your children is not being dependent on them later in life. So you have to be careful with that.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Also, think about when we are not allowing folks to face natural consequences or to use your term, have skin in the game, we're also robbing them of their ability to trust that they know how to problem solve or that they have the capacity to be responsible in certain ways.

Bobbi Rebell:

And that goes to your point earlier with the fact that you put up guardrails with things like subsidizing the first maybe post-education, first career years of a young adult's life. There's nothing wrong with subsidizing rent, but there should be messaging that there's a timeline for it and an expectation that can be adjusted.

Of course, if something happens, we're there for our adult children, but there has to be an expectation that we believe in them. Because you do undermine their confidence if you don't let them know that they can be okay without you also. That you're there for them when they need you, you're there for them when they just want you, but you also believe in them.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

And it can be really healthy for the adult child and the parent's relationship once that particular financial support is removed to connect about things beyond, "Did you pay my bills this month?" Right?

Bobbi Rebell:

Yes.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

It can actually help to deepen that conversation and that transition from emerging adult to adult. There's so much opportunity to deepen further with your parent or with your adult child if you are connecting and talking about things besides that dynamic of I give and you take.

Bobbi Rebell:

Because it can become very transactional then. You have a young adult child, maybe you're subsidizing their first couple of years in their career and the conversations can focus, the communication can focus on, "Oh, I got this bill, are you paying it?" And I think it's really important to sort of ease them off that.

So maybe if they are using your tax accountant, you can say, "well, I will pay this percentage of the bill this year and this percentage next year, but you have to take control of all the communications with the accountant. You are the client.

You need to get your documents in order, whatever it may be." And sort of ease them into it and let them see the bill. Because if they don't see the bill, what it costs to run their life, whether it is the tax accountant or their portion of the phone bill, whatever it may be, or even the Netflix bill. One of my favorite things is one of our adult children, she subscribes to a channel, and she, and I'm sorry if we get in trouble here, but she shared the password to that one with us.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Yeah, sure.

Bobbi Rebell:

So it doesn't have to be one way. If they're paying 4.99 for whatever extra channel that I wasn't going to pay for anyway, but maybe there's a show on there, it can be reversed. And I think it gave them great pleasure to be like, "Okay, I know I'm using your Netflix password," and we pay for a family plan if anyone's watching. We do pay. But, "I know I'm using your Netflix password, but you can use my password for this and we can all share."

And the whole idea of the family ecosystem and letting them know that yes, you can pay for dinner 99% of the time, but it's kind of fun if maybe they pay for dinner on your birthday or whatever it may be. And it probably gives them a lot of pride. I know it's always, it gives me a lot of pride when we do something for our parents, my siblings and I for various life events and stuff.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Totally. I can remember vividly the first time my partner and I paid for a dinner for our in-laws and how good it felt to be able to treat them. And obviously, over the course of our lifetimes buying them a dinner is a drop in the bucket compared to all the things that they've done for us. But it also felt really kind and also just like a little token of our appreciation to say, this is something that feels good for us to be able to do. And it was early adulthood, but we firsthand some of those actual paychecks coming in and it was so nice to be able to do that.

Bobbi Rebell:

Exactly. So I want to wrap up our conversation, but I do want to give you a moment to sort of share your final thoughts on this topic.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Yeah. I think one thing for the listeners is just to know that this is an ongoing conversation. And I know I repeated this ad nausea, but it's so important to make sure that you're having these conversations with your adult children, or if you're the adult child, with your parents and caregivers.

And as Bobbi mentioned, these things are going to change over time and what feels good right now might not feel good in six months, and just because you agreed to something doesn't mean you have to keep doing it. So I hope that listening to this and listening in on this helps you to think about, "Oh, how can I talk to my adult child? Or, "How can I talk to my parent about this particular financial dynamic that we find ourselves in?"

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much. Tell us more about where people can be in touch with you and also your YouTube channel.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Of course. So my business is called Mind Money Balance, where I help people understand the shame-free side of money so they can get their minds and money and balance. And you can find me on YouTube at Mind Money Balance, on Instagram at Mind Money Balance, and of course on my website. And my book is called The Financial Anxiety Solution, and it's a workbook that helps you work through your feelings about money so that you can have a healthier relationship with it.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin:

Thanks, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:

Lindsay spells it out so clearly, make it a safety net rather than an ongoing means of financial support to make sure that you are not enabling, that you're merely being generous. Setting those boundaries, but communicating that you're going to still be there for them, but you hope that they're going to create a life where they have their own safety nets in place time.

Now for our financial Grownup Extra Credit for this episode. Each week I share a recommendation that can add to our conversation about wellness. Because education, financial education, financial literacy is a big part of financial wellness. This week it is a YouTube channel called The Financial Diet. It is hosted by my friend Chelsea Fagan, and she has a knack for putting money stuff in perspective.

She's very entertaining to watch, but she has some really good messages. Chelsea herself, by the way, very cool. In her spare time, she recently wrote a book, not about money, not at all about money. It is called a Perfect Vintage, and it is fiction. It comes out in June. Talk about balance. And by the way, they also have a really cool online book club over at The Financial Diet.

We will leave a link to The Financial Diet's YouTube channel in the show notes. I so appreciate all of the support for this podcast. I hope you like this new iteration. It's been percolating for more months than I care to admit, but we finally did it. Big thanks to everyone involved, including my editor, Steve Stewart, assistant Allie Bourbon, who you can thank for the show notes and the transcript. By the way, all for free at BobbiRebell.com.

Allie also puts together great social media clips that you can see on Instagram, TikTok and LinkedIn. Also, so grateful to Chelsea Perez who designed our new podcast artwork. If you are not already, please sign up for our newsletter, which has more great resources for Financial Grownups and will also include follow-ups to those extra credit assignments.

Please follow me and DM me on Instagram at BobbiRebell1 or catch me on TikTok under Bobbi Rebell. And of course, feel free to reach out on LinkedIn as well. Big thanks to Lindsay Bryan-Podvin for helping us all be Financial Grownups and invest in peace of mind. Wellness For Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media.

Editing and Production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, social media support and show notes by Alliee Borbon, artwork by Chelsea Perez. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned on the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. To get even more out of this podcast, make sure you are also on our newsletter list to get more free content to live your best Financial Grownup lives.

There is a link in the show notes, but you can also sign up by going to BobbiRebell.com or financialwellnessstrategies.com. And be a friend, share the podcast with your friends and anyone you think might like it by taking a screenshot and sharing it on social media. Make sure to tag me on Instagram at BobbiRebell1.

While you're there, follow me. If you DM me that you listen to the podcast, I will follow you back. You can also leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcast. Reading each one means the world to me. And please support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Finally, my grownup friends, don't forget to invest in peace of mind. Thanks, everyone.

 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate
Introducing Wellness for Financial Grownups
Introducing Wellness for Financial Grownups
 

Episode Description: Financial Grownup is taking the podcast up a notch with a new focus on Financial Wellness. Bobbi shares the behind the scenes evolution of the podcast and why we need to be talking more about the ties between mental and emotional health and our money.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Bobbi!


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Full Transcript:

Financial Grownup friends.. we are mixing things up here at the podcast and if you read the title hopefully that piqued your curiosity. I am your host, Bobbi Rebell. I am a Certified Financial Planner and the author of a couple of books about financial grownups the most recent one being Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your Almost Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. I also run an education and consulting company called Financial Wellness Strategies and spent my earlier career days as a Business news anchor and personal finance columnist.

We have been doing this podcast in a couple of iterations for a few years now- and as we grow as a community it makes sense for the podcast to evolve as well. 

I come from a TV background so I've always tried to make the podcast short, simple, quick and easy- simple money tips to be exact.

But the truth is that if we really want to have healthy money habits, sometimes we need more than just money tips. We need to have thoughtful discussions about the nuances of how we integrate money into our entire lives and into our relationships. It is not isolated. It has to be integrated.

In other words, financial literacy- knowing simply how money works on paper or academically- is not enough. It is table stakes- don't get me wrong. You need to know the basics and more of personal finance. Education matters.

But we also need to know how your emotions and your relationships are impacted by your money decisions and goals. Consider who and what influences these. It can be friends and family that have our best interest at heart, but don't have all the facts. It can be a salesperson in a store- or an influencer online- who knows exactly what to say to get us to buy something we otherwise would not. 

We are humans and we need to recognize that even if we know the math, that doesn't mean the numbers always point to the best solution for us to get to our goals. In fact half the battle is figuring out what those goals really are and to figure out the strategy to get there.

By focusing on wellness for financial grownups our goal will be to cut through the noise and find out what we actually value. We won't find quick fixes but we will find ways to stay the course on our journey and manage the anxiety and stress that will naturally join us even as we make progress.

I have a confession. I have been one of those people who always feels that if I just made x dollars more, I would no longer be stressed about money. But somehow there is always something. About a year ago my family reached a big milestone that relieved a huge financial strain. I thought wow, now that we are there- it's smooth sailing ahead. No. More Money. Stress.

 But you know what? There are plenty of new things stressing me out- some of which are universal. I've seen my investments take a hit. I am keenly aware of inflation every time we shop for groceries. Let's just say my family consumes a lot of eggs. And of course, even though I understand on paper our retirement savings are just fine- I worry a lot. It's not logical. It is emotional. And it is real.

So I hope you join me on this leg of our financial grownup journey together. If you are not already please follow this podcast. And if you have anyone in your life that you also want to feel better about their finances wherever they are- please encourage them to join us. And if you have friends and family that you think are all set and don't have a care in the world- get them on board too. We need them to be part of the discussion.

The format is going to evolve as well. I plan to share a quote at the top of each episode to get us thinking a bit. Then we'll usually have an interview with someone that I have selected because I really believe they will bring meaningful insights into our lives. And to wrap things up I'm going to give everyone an extra credit assignment- which by the way was inspired by recent guest Eric Brotman - which will be a recommendation of something to further elevate the conversation we just had.

This episode we're a little off format so we'll do them both at the end.

So for this very first quote I decided to try Chat GPT and I asked for quotes on financial wellness by Bobbi Rebell. Here is one of them:

"The first step to financial wellness is understanding your own money story and your relationship with money."

I chose it because it really speaks to the fact that financial wellness is not one size fits all and we can all be together but on our own journeys.

Now to the extra credit assignment. I want everyone to watch a movie called "The Joneses"  It is about influencers BEFORE social media and how they get their friends to buy stuff they didn't know they needed- and there is a very big twist that will really make you think twice about why we make the financial choices we make and then how that impacts out mental health. And by the way I do want to warn the plot twist is very upsetting but I do feel that the statement it makes is worth it or I would not recommend it. 

You can see it on Amazon Prime, Hulu and Peacock. And don't forget that a lot of streaming content is available free from your public library. It is one hour and 36 minutes, so not too long.

My plan is to do some kind of discussion about these extra credit assignments via my newsletter. Maybe I'll send out a video something like that talking about it - not sure just yet and open to your suggestions but definitely sign up for the newsletter. 

The link will be in the show notes or you can sign up on my website at bobbirebell.com and also the website for my company financialwellnessstrategies.com

Big thanks to all of you for being part of our journey as financial grownups.

 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate
Taking stock of your grownup life with Dr. Jordan Grumet aka "Doc G" Encore
Taking stock of your grownup life with Dr. Jordan Grumet aka "Doc G" Encore
 

The author of Taking Stock: A Hospice Doctor’s Advice on Financial Independence, Building Wealth, and Living a Regret-Free Life, Dr. Jordan Grumet shares his top money tips learned from working with patients in hospice care. 

 
 
 
 

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Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:

Hey Grownup friends, a big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to rate because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. I also had to be prepared to share with all of you. So first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest and it was a lot of work, but I really love doing it and I'm really happy with how it came out.

On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So I truly appreciate it and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Jordan Grumet:

The dying rarely say, "I really regret that I didn't invest in Apple." They don't say, "I really regret that I didn't invest in that major piece of real estate that I was interested in." What they say is, "I wish I had invested more in people. I wish I had invested more in education. I wish I had invested more in that hobby that really lit me on fire and I never had enough time to do it because I was always busy working. I wish I invested in traveling to that place that really was important to me and where I really felt at home."

Bobbi Rebell:

You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups. Because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together, we got this.

Hey Grownup friends, you know when someone famous passes away and the media puts out these montages with highlights of their life? Have you ever thought, "What would be my highlight reel? What would be my legacy?" And is it really going to be something like, "Oh yeah, they bought Microsoft stock at exactly the right time. Genius"? Or maybe, "They really nailed that work presentation." Yeah, exactly. I don't think that's what you want.

So I'm really excited about this week's guest. He is Dr. Jordan Grumet. He is also known as Doc G. He is the author of a new book called Taking Stock: A Hospice Doctor's Advice on Financial Independence, Building Wealth, and Living a Regret-Free Life. Jordan is still a practicing doctor, caring primarily for patients in hospice care. That means basically at the end of their life, so it's a time when there's a lot of reflection. The book was inspired by the stories that they told Dr. Jordan, Doc G, both about the way that they regret things, the things that they wish they'd done differently, but also the good stuff. Dr. Jordan Grumet has spent years blogging about financial independence and wellness. He also launched, by the way, the award-winning Earn & Invest Podcast in 2018. In 2019, he received the The Plutus Awards for Best new Personal Finance podcast. Check out Earn & Invest. But right now we're going to talk primarily about his new book. Here is Dr. Jordan Grumet, AKA Doc G.

Jordan Grumet, AKA Doc G, welcome to the podcast. You are a financial brought up and I'm so happy to have you here.

Jordan Grumet:

I'm so happy to be here with you this morning.

Bobbi Rebell:

Congratulations. You are out with your first highly anticipated, I should say, your highly anticipated first book Taking Stock. I know you spent years working on this. It was something we've talked about behind the scenes for quite some time. It focuses on your experience as you're still an active hospice patient doctor. Tell us about the book and the perspective, the unique perspective that you have on money and life.

Jordan Grumet:

So this book encapsulates the two streams of my life that came together unexpectedly. My father died when I was seven years old. He was a doctor. I decided I want to be a doctor to be just like him. I became a doctor and then I burned out. I no longer identified with the profession, I wasn't enjoying it. So I went on a search to figure out how I could leave medicine. I learned that I could become financially independent and that was the way to do it. I eventually realized I was financially independent and started pulling back from medicine. And while I was doing that, I discovered the one thing I loved was doing hospice work that was taking care of the dying. So as I was not identifying with being a doctor, the one thing I still did was this hospice work. So I started pursuing financial topics, public speaking, writing, blogging.

And as I talked more and more about personal finance, I realized the how wasn't as important to me. There were a lot of great people who could tell you how to get towards financial independence, but what was more interesting to me was the why. Why do we do what we do and what next once you start actually accumulating some wealth? And funny enough, the answers started coming from my dying patients when I talked to them about the regret they had, what they wish they did and didn't do in life. I felt like the information was so germane to all of us also struggling with our finances, except maybe we could use all this advice much earlier when we were younger, when we had more time to make changes. So these two ideas came together and became Taking Stock, the book, about my experience as a hospice doctor, but also a personal finance podcaster and writer.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you've really been torn between sort of these two careers. So I love it that you now have this hybrid in your life where you are still a practicing doctor and yet you're also, as you talk about in the book, you're a communicator. Can you talk a little bit about how each compliments the other as you live your life?

Jordan Grumet:

So when you become a doctor, if you're going to be good at it, you have to learn how to really communicate with people. So I had a lot of experience talking to people about illness and disease and taking complex ideas and bringing them towards the simple so that people could understand what was going on with them in their body. But I realized that was part of the pleasure.

I also liked to write and public speak, and I had a medical blog that I did for years starting in 2005, but I would always take that communication type activities that I so much loved and I would fit them into really small time periods when I wasn't busy working. So I said, "Well, writing, public speaking, those are the kind of things I can't do for a living. But if I have a few moments here and there, I'm going to do them because they're this hobby that I really love."

When I realized I was financially independent, I had to do a search for who I am and what I really want my life to be about. I realized that those small snippets of time that I was spending being a communicator actually were the parts of my life I enjoyed most. So then I had to learn how to pivot. So I started subtracting out the things from my work-life as a doctor I didn't like, the things that were causing friction. And as I got rid of nights and weekends in my busy practice that was stressing me out, what I was left with was this hospice work that I would do even if I wasn't getting paid for. But doing that 10 or 15 hours a week, I then had all this other time and so I could pursue these other things, this being a communicator.

And so I found that they fit really well together. It wasn't that I wanted to throw the baby out with the bathwater, I didn't want to get away from medicine completely. I just wanted to stop doing the things that didn't feel as purposeful to me. And this allowed me to kind of do both. I found that they actually relate really well with each other because again, I think that dying have a lot to teach the living. And this was a perfect way in which I could intertwine these two parts of my life.

Bobbi Rebell:

We're going to get to some money tips that you've brought along in just a few minutes, but I do want to pick up on something. You talk about communication so much. What tips do you have for communicating between the generations when it comes to money? Because those conversations are so awkward.

Jordan Grumet:

They really are awkward conversations. So the question is, how can we talk, especially to our parents if we're in that sandwich generation the way you and I are, usually in your 30s, 40s, and 50s where your parents are getting older, you know they have financial issues, those financial issues may or may not affect you, but they're also going to affect the quality of their life as they get older? We are lucky enough to be interested in personal finance. So we're learning and reading all these things about how to manage our finances, but part of that is also communicating with them. So the question is how do you bring up these really, really touchy subjects.

And I mentioned a few in the book. There's some really good ways to start talking to your parents about money. One is to ask them for advice even if you don't need it, right? So it's a great thing to go to your parents and say, "You know what? I've started doing my own estate planning. I'm looking at wills and trust. There's a lot of information there. What have you guys done? What did you find? What do you think works? What do you think doesn't?" This is a really great non-confrontational way to start talking about money with them. And because they feel like they're giving you advice and they may be giving you advice, they may teach you something. But even if you know something about it, this idea that they're giving you advice will make them much more open to speak about these things. So I think that's a great conversation opener.

Another great conversation opener is to mention you know someone who had a bad experience. So I tell the story in a book of a guy whose mother got Alzheimer's and therefore lost the ability to manage their finances. But he was lucky because his dad was doing everything and managing all the finances and taking care of everything. But something happened. His dad got COVID and ended up on a respirator. This gentleman realized that the dad had the financial power of attorney. So he can't make any decisions because he's on a ventilator. The mom has dementia and can't make any decisions. But he didn't have the legal ability. While his father was still alive but incoherent, he didn't have the legal ability to manage the finances. So a great way to start having this conversation with your parents is say, "Remember my friend Johnny? Well, the darnedest thing happened to him." Tell that story and said, "Hey, we've never talked about this kind of stuff. Have you ever thought about it?" Again, mentioning the things that have befallen other people is a great way to start the conversation.

And last but not least, another wonderful way to start having this conversation is as opposed to speaking about money, talk about legacy, say, "Hey, mom and dad, I'm getting older and you both are getting older. We just had grandkids. I've been thinking a lot about my own legacy. I was wondering what you want your legacy to be for me and the kids?" A lot of parents, for instance, have a summer cabin or a lake cabin, right? The whole family gathers there. That's like a great, great intro. It's like, "You know that cabin we always go to every year and the grandkids love it and we love it, et cetera? Well, that's a great memory of who you are and how you've built this family. What's going to happen after you're gone? Are you going to want us to still keep going to that cabin and thinking about you?" So again, talking about legacy as opposed to, "Hey, mom and dad, how are we going to split up your money or your things when you're not here?" I think those are some really great ways to start that complicated conversation.

Bobbi Rebell:

And it really has the overarching feeling of love and concern and family bonding, which is so wonderful. I want to get to a few quick money tips. You have so many in your book Taking Stock. First money tip, I want to pick up on something you mentioned just earlier in this interview, subtraction. You love using the term subtraction and you mentioned you did it yourself. Tell us more about what that means and how people can apply that to their own lives.

Jordan Grumet:

Here's where I really want to remind people, money is a tool and it's a tool so that we can eventually live a life of purpose, identity, and connections, but it's one of many tools. So we don't only have money. We have our energy, we have our passions, we have our knowledge, we have our relationships. All of these things are also tools that we can utilize. So let's say you're in your 20s and you're stressed out in your 8:00 to 6:00, but you need the money. Well, when you're young, you have a lot of energy. Maybe you're not married, maybe you don't have kids yet. What if you on a random Saturday night decided to say, "I'm going to spend three hours every Saturday night doing a side hustle. And I'm going to pick a side hustle that's really purposeful for me. Something that's I'm passionate about, something I would do even if I wasn't getting paid for"?

I did this when I was really young. I started a business where I sold art. I didn't care whether I made money or not because I was just so passionate about it. So what if you started this kind of side hustle and you did it for six months? Three hours a week on random Saturdays when you had this tool of energy because you're a young person. After six months, let's say it created some revenue, could you not then push back on the 8:00 to 6:00 and make it a 9:00 to 5:00 or maybe work four days a week? Maybe if you started building more revenue, you could start subtracting out your work which you don't like, and adding in more and more of that side hustle, which is creating money. Let's say the other way around, it doesn't make any money. Well then at least you spent three hours a week doing something that was full of purpose and passion for you. So there's no loss there.

So the idea again is how can we utilize or toggle the different tools we have to start subtracting out the bad stuff now and adding in the good stuff, the stuff that helps us with purpose and identity. So I think we can use subtraction even at a young age. Sometimes that means changing employers and doing the same thing because you don't like your employer. Sometimes it means staying in the same job but switching jobs from something you like less to something you like more. Sometimes if you have a little bit of financial space, it means backing off and working a little less and realizing you may not retire for five or 10 years later than you thought, but you'll be enjoying life today. So this idea of subtraction, I want to bring it into people's lives when they're young and when they're not as financially stable, and then definitely utilize it when your finances are better.

Bobbi Rebell:

I just want to add to your point, that I made the mistake of assuming I could not cut back when I was working crazy hours as a business TV anchor. What I realized was that if I stood my ground and delegated some things to people, that it wasn't so good for my career, for example, to not be on the call to London at 7:00 AM or to not be on the call to Tokyo. This is when I was in sort of a management position. I had to seed that which maybe wasn't the best thing for my overall career, but I realized that I really could work an eight-hour day and not apologize. People said, "When do you come in?" And I just would say, "My hours are 10 to 6:00 and that was it. And I didn't apologize. I was in a position where those were legitimate hours and nobody had asked me to work the longer hours. I just for some reason had it in my head that I had to.

So I think that even if you are in a position where you need the job and you need the money, which was absolutely the case, really think about what would happen if you sort of not necessarily pushed back, but created boundaries more at work without apologizing and see how it goes. I think a lot of employers are a lot more receptive these days to employees kind of putting up some boundaries, as I said, and really rather than have them burn out. I think most employers don't want you to quit or go to the competition because you're being burned down. And they're usually unaware that you're working so many hours. They just don't even know. And they might not even notice if you cut your hours so much and the person that you delegate some work to might be very happy to have that higher profile assignment.

I want to ask you just one more money tip. Talk about we've had so much turmoil in the stock market as we recorded this in the summer of 2022. You talk about investing as wisely in your life as you do in the stock market. And I think this is an important money tip because we do sometimes get caught up because we see the numbers in our account. Sometimes we have emails that we may get that I've actually turned off at times. I don't necessarily want to note day by day what's happening in my retirement account. We don't need to know that. Elaborate more on this Melanie tip about really focusing on your life versus the stock market.

Jordan Grumet:

Well, here's again one of those great messages from the dying. If we're talking about investments, the dying rarely say, "I really regret that I didn't invest in Apple." They don't say, "I really regret that I didn't invest in that major piece of real estate that I was interested in." What they say is, "I wish I had invested more in people. I wish I had invested more in education. I wish I had invested more in that hobby that really lit me on fire and I never had enough time to do it because I was always busy working. I wish I invested in traveling to that place that really was important to me and where I really felt at home."

I think investments are important, but again, I think the monetary investments are just one of the many investments we make. And we tend to forget, we always talk about how money compounds, but we forget that experiences compound and knowledge compounds and relationships compound and that ends up being a real wealth. That's that compound growth, that wealth that we build as we get older and older and that ends up being way more important than the money in the end. That ends up being what we live for. It's just really hard to see that sometimes, especially when we're young.

I also think that we put money out there as a goal because it's just so much easier than thinking about these really difficult things. Like, who do I want to be and what is living my best life and do I have the energy to do that work now and forego the easy stuff? Because although getting to financial independence or having a lot of money isn't "easy," it's pretty knowable, right? We know the steps. We know that we can work harder. We know that we can side hustle. We know that we can invest.

These are all things even if we don't quite understand them, we know we can find a blog or a podcast or a book that's going to teach us this, but it's much harder to say, "What are those investments I need to make today in my purpose, identity, and connections?" Because they're going to continue paying those important dividends and it's the harder work. So we stay away from it and we ignore it and we don't like this idea that life is finite and we might not eventually get to our true goals. So instead of working on those true goals, we work on something that's a lot easier like money and career.

Bobbi Rebell:

Final question, what is the number one takeaway you've learned from the dying? What's your takeaway there?

Jordan Grumet:

The number one takeaway similar to what we were talking about is invest first in your purpose, identity, and connections. And using that knowledge, then build a financial framework. So put purpose, identity, and connections first. That doesn't mean that we have to drop everything and go for a job we're passionate about, but before we start making all those financial decisions, I think we should have those ideas in the forefront so that we can be really intentional about doing things we don't like to do. So I'm not saying we should never do things we don't like to do. It may serve us, it may serve us to work at a job we don't like. It may serve us to work long hours at times, but I want us to be intentional about that so that it can eventually serve our purpose, identity, and connections because I think that's what happiness really looks like.

Bobbi Rebell:

I do just want to clarify because you do talk about in a book that you very much did this earlier in your career. So there was this thesis of your life where you were a total workaholic, you were missing family events. You learned from that experience, yes, but you also benefited from the money that you banked at the time. So it's not that you shouldn't have seasons of your life where you do work for the money for a defined period of time if that's going to get you to your goals. So I just want to add that from your book because I really thought that was a great lesson that I learned, that we shouldn't apologize for working for the money at certain phases if that is part of the goal. And there's nothing wrong with that too.

Jordan Grumet:

Yeah, I mean again, money is one of many tools that helps us get to this place where we can live out a more purposeful life and sometimes it makes sense to maximize that money. Collect a lot of that tool and then you can use it accordingly.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much. So we are huge fans here of the Earn & Invest Podcast. I hope everyone will check it out. Also, your book Taking Stock. Tell us more about where people can be in touch with you and learn more about all of your projects.

Jordan Grumet:

So the easiest way is to go to my personal website, jordangrumet.com. That's J-O-R-D-A-N-G-R-U-M-E-T.com. You can see links to the book there as well as links to the three really types of content I produce. The Earn & Invest Podcast is one, there's a link there. The Diversified blog, which is my personal finance blog also is linked there. And last but not least, I wrote a medical medical blog from like 2005 to 2018 just about the experience of being a doctor, and that is also there. The other way is if you just want to hear about the podcast, earnandinvest.com. But either of those places, you can find links to everything at both.

Bobbi Rebell:

And of course, Taking Stock available everywhere books are available. And I want to also remind everyone as a fellow author, please not only should you purchase Jordan's book, but also please leave a review wherever you buy it, but probably it might be on Amazon. Those reviews are really meaningful to us authors, so please leave a review for Jordan's book and for every book that you read. Authors really need your support and we all appreciate it. And I appreciate you, Jordan, thank you for joining us.

Jordan Grumet:

Thank you so much for having me. This has been a blast.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay, my friends, there is something I don't talk about publicly that I have decided to start sharing even though it can be a bit embarrassing. I get digital overload and it stresses me out for good reason, because when you have so much junk on your computer because you're not as organized as you should be because you get caught up in all the things that you have to do, if you don't deal with it, all that stuff on your computer starts to really slow things down and can become a total drag on your productivity. For me, there is nothing worse than finally motivating to get stuff done, only to be derailed by a sluggish computer that is just not cooperating.

A little while ago, I decided I was going to stop just kind of hoping that things would get better and I was going to deal with it. I downloaded something called CleanMyMac. It's from a company called MacPaw. I was skeptical, but I took a deep breath and I tried it. Long story short, it totally worked. I loved how I could see it work through my files with clear and easy to understand graphics. I could see what was messing things up. CleanMyMac would ask me for my okay before deleting files so that something I did need to keep didn't go bye-bye. That was one of my biggest fears. I recently reached out to the company and they are offering 10% off to my financial grownup listeners who want to also get CleanMyMac. To get that 10% off CleanMyMac, you do need to go to MyLink. It is bobbirebell.com/CleanMyMac, B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L.com/cleanmymac. And that is all one word. I promise you, you'll be so happy. I want you guys to be in touch with me. Let me know how it goes. You deserve to lower the stress of data overload. Trust me, it's so worth it.

One of my favorite things about Doc G's book, Taking Stock: A Hospice Doctor's Advice on Financial Independence, Building Wealth, and Living a Regret-Free Life, is that he shares real stories from real patients that are as the tabloids say, "Just like us." I know you'll get so much out of this book and you're also maybe going to have some ideas to add. I would love to hear them. Please be in touch. Let us know what you have learned from the older people in your life. You could DM me on Instagram at @bobbirebell1. And also, by the way, please check out my still relatively new TikTok channel, it's just @Bobby Rebel. I share lots of snippets from local TV interviews that I do, sharing money tips about the things that we read about, watch in the news, things like inflation, saving money, paying off debt, and just being smart with your money. It's a lot of current events related stuff, so I hope you enjoy that. It's a good way to see those clips because we're not all in the local markets and stuff.

Also, don't forget to check out bobbirebell.com. That is my website for show notes and a full transcript. You can also sign up for my newsletter there that has more money tips so that we can all live our best grownup lives. Big thanks to Dr. Jordan Grumet, AKA Doc G. for helping us all be Financial Grownups.

Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free. But I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being Financial Grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 

 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanJordan Grumet, Doc G, Taking Stock, Author, Earn & Invest
Bobbi’s Stepdaughter Ashley shares her Top 5 Money Tips Encore
Bobbi’s Stepdaughter Ashley shares her Top 5 Money Tips Encore
 

Ashley Kaufman, who bought her NYC apartment at age 24 shares how she did it, plus her best money tips for financial grownups. 

Money Tips

  • Be the planner of the friend group

  • Always be searching for discounts

  • Have a monthly self reflection session on your spending

  • Don't make yourself feel bad for spending money, but live within your means, do not spend more than you have

  • Always buy pet insurance!

 
 

Follow Name!

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Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

  3. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 and you’ll automatically be entered to win books by our favorite guests and merch from our Grownup Gear shop.



Full Transcript:

Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends, a big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to write because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you.

Bobbi Rebell:
First of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest, and it was a lot of work. But I really love doing it and I'm really happy with how it came out.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. I truly appreciate it and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Ashley Kaufman:
When it came to moving into the apartment, I made a running list of here are all the things that I'm going to need to purchase, from a spatula to a couch. It came down to me creating the Excel spreadsheet with three different retailers and a column for more specialty items and comparing the prices. Maybe the items wouldn't be exactly the same at three different stores, but it would be close enough that I could decide between each of them and compare the prices because every cent counted.

Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together we got this.


Bobbi Rebell:
The big question I am constantly asked about my book, Launching Financial Grownups is, did your stepdaughter really buy her apartment at age 24? Then, how did she do it? Then, how can we do it? Well, the truth is, she focused and she made some really tough choices. It was not all perfect to say the least. Ashley also truly embraced the financial grownup lifestyle. You're going to hear more about that soon.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ashley wrote the epilogue to the book, Launching Financial Grownups, but until now no one has heard directly from her about all the details. Ashley not only reveals in her interview exactly how she did it and what she might do differently, she also is going to share her top money tips, including some that I am adopting myself. Yeah, you can tell I'm pretty proud of her. Here is my 25-year-old stepdaughter, Ashley Kaufman.

Bobbi Rebell:
Ashley Kaufman, you are a financial grownup and I can't believe I'm saying that after I've known you since you were eight years old. Oh my gosh. Welcome.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you for having me. Can't believe it's taken this long to get on the podcast.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. First of all, let me just say that you're the first of your siblings to come on the podcast, and your father has come on for our Summer Watch Series, and he does want to return. But he never came on to give actual money advice, money tips like you are, so you are special, Ashley.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you. Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
We're going to get to your money tips, which by the way, a lot of people know you because you wrote the epilogue to Launching Financial Grownups. It's been a big hit. Everyone says that is the best part of the book. I get a lot of people asking me something that we talk about in the book, which is the fact that you bought an apartment at age 24. I want to give you a chance to talk about it.

Bobbi Rebell:
How did you do it in short, but also how has it been? Because the book was written really a year ago, more than a year ago at this point and a lot has happened.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. I was able to do it in short, by saving a lot, living at home after college and saving every dollar that I made. Immediately after graduating from college, I picked up a summer job, even though I had a job starting in August where I work now. I picked up that job with the intention of continuing to save and aggressively saving so that I could buy an apartment and move out.

Ashley Kaufman:
Not that I didn't enjoy living at home and eating with Harry every night, but when you're 22 and moving home after college, you really want to move out and live your own life like all of your friends are. So it was definitely hard in that regard just because I saw my friends living their own lives, renting apartments all over the city and furnishing them and making it their own space. I felt a little claustrophobic, just kind of like, I don't have my own space. I'm living at home.

Ashley Kaufman:
But in the end it's been worth it. I absolutely adore where I live now. It took a little bit of adjustment after moving in also to just make it feel like home, and it's taken the majority of the year to get there.

Bobbi Rebell:
Before I get to asking you about how it is living in your own apartment, tell me about the choices that you had to make, because it sounds simple, "Well, I just saved a lot of money by living with my parents." But it's not really that simple. You did have to make some choices and you did miss out on some things or make adjustments to your plans many times.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. I think COVID helped a lot and not being able to go out with friends. I did also miss out on some things my friends were doing, like going to music festivals, which in retrospect seems like it was a massive waste of money anyway, but seeing all my friends there and having a good time, it definitely felt like I was missing out on something.

Ashley Kaufman:
There were also times where my friends would be going out to brunch every week and I just wouldn't go along with them because every dollar ended up counting. I was really tight when I did put the down payment down on my apartment and then had to go buy furniture, so every dollar ended up adding up to allowing me to live where I am now.

Bobbi Rebell:
One thing that stuck with a lot of people in the epilogue in Launching Financial Grownups is you said something like, "I love Excel. I'm an Excel kind of girl." How did you use systems to help you save the money, track money, and then help you when you were moving into this apartment and setting up your own home?

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. I do love Excel. I took a course on Excel in college, and since then, just everything has been in Excel. I have my monthly budgeting in there, which I have since college. I have a list of my running expenses that are the same every month, as well as a list of things I would like to do that month. If it doesn't add up to have me saving what I would like to be saving every month, I will make cutbacks and adjust, but Excel really runs my life.

Ashley Kaufman:
I mean, I have tabs for vacations I want to go on, I have tabs for, here's an expense that comes up once a year, like renewing my pass to the zoo, which I really enjoy, but I have to budget for that. It helps me keep track of that. When it came to moving into the apartment, I made a running list of here are all the things that I'm going to need to purchase, from a spatula to a couch. It came down to me creating the Excel spreadsheet with three different retailers and a column for more specialty items and comparing the prices.

Ashley Kaufman:
Maybe the items wouldn't be exactly the same at three different stores, but it would be close enough that I could decide between each of them and compare the prices because every cent counted.

Bobbi Rebell:
Looking back, what advice would you give to other people that have short-term, but big goals? Not necessarily buying an apartment, because not everybody wants to do that. It's not the right choice for everybody. People might want to move around, have other priorities, but if they have a short-term goal, what's the best way to get there?

Ashley Kaufman:
To really take a step back and look at what you're spending and do I really need be doing this? I mentioned earlier that I have a zoo membership. Maybe every year, I don't need to renew that if I don't see myself going, and I have a financial goal that I need to hit, or let's say something like I've been looking into buying a new couch. There's small steps that you can take to get to where you need to go by just taking that step back and reviewing all of those choices.

Bobbi Rebell:
Just being accountable and doing a self-audit of where you are right now and what matters most to you for that season of your life.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:
All right. That goes into our money tips that you brought with you that are new money tips, but I think makes so much sense for everybody, not just young people, but it's very relatable, certainly in the young adult phase of life that you're in and you're 25 years old right now. I can't believe it.

Ashley Kaufman:
I know.

Bobbi Rebell:
The first of five money tips that we're going to get into has to do with, I would call it the FOMO thing, like your peer group and what's going on there. What's your money tip there?

Ashley Kaufman:
My money tip for friend groups is to always be the planner in the friend group, by being the planner, you can be cognizant of other people's requirements while also staying within your own budget. If people want to go out at night to say a club or something, you don't have to go to the fanciest nightclub to go have a good time with your friends. Some people might want to in your friend group, but other people might not be able to afford it.

Ashley Kaufman:
You can really make sure that you are courteous towards others while also staying within your own budget and maybe the budgets of your friends, if you're aware of their needs and requirements financially as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
I love that because we tend to think just reflect on ourselves like, "Wow, this is a stretch for me financially." But we also may not realize that it may be a stretch for everybody, but nobody really wants to say anything. It's actually a really considerate thing of your friend group to bring up the cost and to be the planner and control those things. Your second money tip is something your dad has gotten so good at and I'm so proud of him, and it has to do with making a little extra effort when you're buying stuff.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yes. My second tip would be to always search for discounts, which goes back into being a planner. If you want something, wait for it to go on sale, wait to find a discount of some sort. If it's travel, be planning over a year in advance and make sure that you are tracking any sort of discount. Marriott hotels I know specifically you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance or up to 48 hours in some cases so it doesn't hurt to book something while you're searching for something else, or searching for a better deal.

Ashley Kaufman:
There are also corporate discounts to look at at larger companies. Discounts through loyalty programs. I'll occasionally get something in my inbox from Marriott due to my status. You get X, Y, and Z number of extra points for participating in this program we have going on, or memberships like Costco. Costco Travel actually has some great deals to be found.

Bobbi Rebell:
Okay. Your money tip number three has to do, I think, with the ultimate in wellness and self-care.

Ashley Kaufman:
My third money tip is to always have a monthly reflection session. Whether you think that you need it or you don't, you probably do. It's just sitting down with your monthly credit card statements and your bank statements, and just seeing where there could be changes. It doesn't necessarily need to be cutting things, but it could be you have a subscription service like Ipsy or Birchbox, but every time you walk into TJ Maxx or Petco, you're buying makeup or things for your dog.

Ashley Kaufman:
You could be canceling those subscriptions and spending it on items that you really want, rather than what's just showing up in a subscription box.

Bobbi Rebell:
That's really good advice. I'm going to give that some thought, because I have a makeup/skincare subscription box that comes four times a year, that I do love the surprise element of it, but the truth is that they're not necessarily things that I would buy. I'm going to take that one to heart, Ashley. All right. The next one has to do with really the emotional elements. It's an emotional money tip.

Ashley Kaufman:
My next tip would be to don't make yourself feel bad for spending money, but live within your means. Don't spend more than you have, but don't make yourself feel bad for going out for a $5 coffee with your friends. I'm very guilty of this.

Ashley Kaufman:
I will occasionally cancel plans because I feel like it's not within my budget and it makes you feel bad because number one, you're ruining relationships with friends, and number two, you're really are developing an unhealthy relationship with money, where you feel like you have to cut something else in order to make up for something that really isn't hurting you that much.

Ashley Kaufman:
If it's not within your means, go ahead, cancel the coffee date with your friends. But if it's really not going to stop you from paying your bills that month, it might be okay to spend a little extra.

Bobbi Rebell:
I would add that don't forget that at many coffee shops like Starbucks, even though you think the smallest one is a tall, there's actually a short, which is even cheaper. You can get a short, plain coffee and have your coffee plans and not spend as much money as you... You don't have to spend for the 7 or $8 fancy espresso drink.

Bobbi Rebell:
Number five is my favorite of all, because you are a new pet owner, which is something that you did wait to do until you could afford it. We had a lot of financial discussions as a family because you have a dependent, Ashley.

Ashley Kaufman:
Yeah. Yeah. We just brought home my little dog, Walnut. She's a Maltese puppy. She is my entire world, but my tip related to dogs would be to always buy pet insurance, cats, dogs, whatever you can insure, always insure your pets. It should never be a question of whether you can afford care for your animal. I built my $500 deductible into my emergency fund when I went and signed up for pet insurance.

Ashley Kaufman:
I know that if something happens with my dog, it's a $500 deductible that I've covered in my emergency fund and then my insurance will cover 90% of it. I don't have to worry about calling the vet for the smallest of things. My dog had an episode in the middle of the night a few weeks ago where she was shaking. It wasn't super concerning, but I didn't hesitate to call the vet and find out that it was probably normal because I knew that I could cover the cost.

Bobbi Rebell:
I remember when you were thinking about adopting a dog, that you really in advance researched all the costs, including medical costs. I think that was so important because it is a dependent and it is important to understand the full scope of what you could be in store for, because you love your puppy. You're never going to say no and it's important to know what you're in store for. I was so proud of you just in the run-up to getting Walnut.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
On that note, final thoughts and where can people be in touch with you? I know Walnut, the Maltese, is a big star as well so people might want to follow her.

Ashley Kaufman:
You can follow me on Instagram @AshleyKaufman or Walnut @Walnutthemaltese. Walnut is much more interesting on Instagram than I am, I have to say.

Bobbi Rebell:
Well, you are the brains behind the Walnutthemaltese Instagram account, so you get credit for both accounts. Thank you so much. I'm so proud of you, Ashley.

Ashley Kaufman:
Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:
By the way, Walnut is starting to get inquiries for brand deals. She is so unbelievably cute. Feel free to DM @Walnutthemaltese on Instagram. I loved how candid Ashley was about the importance of having a healthy relationship with money and prioritizing living your life. She's okay missing some music festivals that frankly, she probably just wasn't that into anyway, but she does kick herself for foregoing coffee plans with a friend because she's so committed to staying on budget. It's delicate.

Bobbi Rebell:
I've talked about my own issues letting go and letting myself spend money. The lines are blurry on this, but when it comes down to it, money is the means to do what you want, so do what you want. Apply that thinking and don't let an unhealthy relationship with money keep you from living your life. I would tell everyone to replay this episode, but the truth is, we have it all for you in the show notes. Just go to my website at bobbirebell.com for those. It also will give you a full transcript.

Bobbi Rebell:
You also can sign up for our newsletter there, where we send podcast previews and interesting news articles to you just twice a month. I haven't asked this in a while, but please take a minute and write a review of the podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you enjoy listening to us. Biggest thanks to all of you for supporting the show.

Bobbi Rebell:
Please, please help me get the word out. Tell a friend, share on social and just keep listening and being in touch on all the socials. Big thanks to Ashley Kaufman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com.

Bobbi Rebell:
You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups club.

Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well.

Bobbi Rebell:
Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Advice, Financial Grownup, Money, Personal FinanceBobbi Rebell KaufmanAshley Kaufman, Pets, Money Tips
5 ways Financial Grownups can honor black history month
5 ways Financial Grownups can honor black history month
 

Episode Description: Diane King Hall, from "Your Call with DK Hall" joins us with ways that all grownups can economically support the black community this month.

A little sneak peek into Diane King Hall’s episode!

Timestamps & Main Points:

  • 00:00 - Introduction

  • 02:48 - Support Black-owned brands or businesses

  • 04:48 - Help increase financial literacy in the black community

  • 08:00 - Being a sponsor, not just a mentor

  • 14:20 - Be careful about what you define as an emergency.


Diane’s Bio:

Diane King Hall is an award-winning broadcast journalist, and personal finance guru with 15+ years of experience as an anchor and correspondent for Emmy winning news networks, with significant expertise in business, financial, general and breaking news.

Reporting often daily directly from the floor of the NYSE, Diane served as the main on-air, morning markets and business reporter, covering global markets and interviewing C-Suite executives over the years like Jamie Dimon and other market leaders, celebrities, and experts. Most recently she was brought on at CBS News as the MoneyWatch Correspondent and soon landed on the anchor desk, anchoring the morning network news.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Diane!

Follow Bobbi!


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Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

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Full Transcript:


Diane King Hall:

A lot of times I find, particularly with people who have certain education levels in the Black community, they know this information and aren't necessarily applying it all themselves. So we can't just be libraries, we have to apply this knowledge.

Bobbi Rebell:

You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together we got this.

I learned a lot doing this episode and I'll be honest, this is not a topic that I've done before because, well, it just never came up. And that's something I regret not only because all of us should be talking about Black History Month, but also because as financial grownups there's a lot we can learn to be doing this month, and as you'll see in this interview, the rest of the year as well.

My friend Diane King Hall is our guest, and to her credit, it was Diane who suggested we talk about ways to honor Black History Month. Diane King Hall was most recently the MoneyWatch correspondent and anchor for CBS News. But more importantly, she is a fiscally fabulous financial journalist. She cut her teeth in the leading newsrooms in the country and embedded on Wall Street. King Hall has specialized in business news for the better part of nearly two decades with stops at the BBC. Reuters, that's where I met her, NY1, and CNN. I love the tips that Diane brought, but things got really interesting when she got candid towards the end of the interview and shares a little tough love. Here is Diane King Hall.

Diane King Hall, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Diane King Hall:

Thank you for having me. Yes, I am a financial grownup.

Bobbi Rebell:

You are most definitely a financial grownup and I'm so happy to have you here. It's taken me years to get you on because you have been so busy with your dynamic career as a financial journalist. Tell us a little bit about the new things that are happening because you have some big things on tap.

Diane King Hall:

Right. Similar to you, I'm planning to launch a podcast. It's going to be called Your Call with DK Hall. It's a podcast that will delve into financial empowerment, financial literacy, economic empowerment, and just helping individuals to live their best and richer lives.

Bobbi Rebell:

One way to live their best and richer lives for financial grownups, this month we're recording this in February of 2023, is to find ways to support Black History Month. And you brought five ways that financial grownups can support Black History Month. The first one is something we hear so often, but I want you to elaborate on that. It is obviously we want to support Black-owned businesses, but tell us more.

Diane King Hall:

Yeah, so nowadays you can support not just Black-owned businesses, you can support brands and influencers and it doesn't just have to be about the dollars you spend. But yes, absolutely you can spend some dollars. One of the easiest ways you can do it is follow different individuals and brands on social media. I mean, I'm a big passionate believer in just supporting people. You can amplify their message. So for instance, you have people like Tiffany Aliche who is the Budgetnista. You can easily follow her and amplify her message or put that into your life if you need those tips as well. You have people like Lynnette Khalfani-Cox, who is the Money Coach, she's been around for years. Michelle Singletary, another individual that you can follow on social media.

Or in terms of brands, look for brands that are skincare brands. Like I have one now, this is not a sponsored plug at all. I've tried. This is an easier way you can get into supporting a brand, like try a smaller size of their item. This is a skincare item. It's Shani Darden. Actually, when I discovered this, I didn't even know she was a Black skincare brand. Then when I heard I was like, yes, I'm buying it and I'm going to try it. So this is kind of a part of my nighttime routine right now and I've heard I have great skin. Thank you, God, but also you have a little help.

Bobbi Rebell:

We all like a little help. And if you want to mention, by the way, Tiffany Aliche and Lynnette Khalfani-Cox have both been guests on this podcast. And Lynette, I want to point out, Lynette said something very interesting. I do follow her very closely, especially on LinkedIn. And she mentioned something that I do think we should also stress is that even though February is Black History Month and we focus on it, that's a time to be more aware maybe, but that doesn't mean that it all ends at the end of the month, and she pointed that out on LinkedIn. So definitely follow her and you, of course, on LinkedIn for those reminders.

All right, number two, we want to help increase financial literacy in the Black community. And this is something for everyone. And I also want to emphasize that I'm obviously not Black, I'm a white woman, but I think that we can ... But it makes sense to everybody. It's part of just supporting each other.

Diane King Hall:

Yes, I am. And even if you're not, you can help by volunteering for different organizations that do financial literacy, speaking at schools. Let's say it's an underprivileged school, or school that's in a community that's typically known to be more of an underprivileged community. Bring the knowledge and information you have to the classroom. I mean, and in general, not enough classrooms teach financial literacy. So it's a gift that you're giving. I mean your audience is financial grownups, so these are people who know what they're doing, and know how to apply it, and the onus is on us to teach it to the next generation. So search out financial literacy organizations that serve Black communities or African American communities.

One organization that operates really like a business in my mind that I like, and that kind of brings me to my next point, is Operation HOPE. You want to contribute to organizations that push economic empowerment and civil rights such as the Urban League, and they're addressing issues of financial literacy. Now, Operation HOPE's agenda is not just for Black people, but they're about financial literacy.

So that often ends up helping Black individuals, Black businesses. They do have a initiative right now that is ... Let me get this right. It is the 1 Million Black Businesses, that initiative is aiming to start, grow, and scale a million Black businesses by 2030. So that's an organization that's been around for a while that's led by John Hope Bryant. He's been at the forefront of kind of leadership with regard to economic empowerment. And I think it operates more like a bank though it's a 501(c)(3) organization. And you can see it stood the test of time, it's been around for 30 years. So that's one place you can support, whether it's your funds, or figuring out a way you can get involved.

Bobbi Rebell:

And by the way, I should say that was your third tip, which was contribute to organizations. I'm going down my checklist if you're just listening on audio, contribute to organizations that advance civil rights and economic empowerment. So number four, help your company. I really like this one. Help your company take actionable steps on DEI initiatives. Not just training, but hiring and what steps you can contribute to that. Because sometimes companies ... And this goes to many, what they call, affinity groups, which I'm not crazy about that term. But anyway, very often they have these groups, but they don't always fund them properly. They don't always keep them as active as they should. So talk more about that.

Diane King Hall:

So yes, the affinity groups are great in the sense that yes, you have these groups that can convene and talk about issues, whether it's Black affinity groups, or Asian affinity groups, or women affinity groups. They're wonderful. They're platforms that you could talk about things, but actionable steps could be within hiring, you know? How can you create one a target that you're aiming for with regard to increasing diversity, reaching out to people in your network who can bring in those Black individuals who have the skills that you know they have, and just helping to shepherd them. Being a sponsor, not just a mentor. Being a mentor is wonderful, but sponsoring these individuals, meaning using your capital, your social capital within your organization. Carla Harris uses that term a lot with Morgan Stanley, is just using your social capital to help bring in people and help elevating people.

So there are people who are doing well within your organization, but they may not have the access that you have, whether it's in the boardroom, let's say you're in the C-suite, but you know this individual could go further than they are. So using that social capital to help elevate people with regard to your DEI initiatives in and around them. So it's not just talking points that you all have as a business or within your business.

Bobbi Rebell:

Actions are as important as words. I don't want to say words are not important, but it is important to be actively involved and shepherd people along. Don't just connect people, get them hired, but also monitor them. Be there as a sponsor, not just a mentor.

The last point, number five is actually my favorite point I'm going to say. And this is because it really can apply to everyone no matter your background, your race, ethnicity, what have you. It is attend an event which educates people about the contributions of African Americans and Black people to the fabric of America. And I think you gave an example of inventor Garrett Morgan. So talk to me about that and then talk to me about the general idea.

Diane King Hall:

So I remember learning about Garrett Morgan when I was young, and this was actually through school. You had to do a school project and we had to pick someone to learn about. So a couple of inventions that he's known for. One is the smoke hood. That sounds like your stove. I'm sitting near my kitchen, that's why I say, "your stove," but that's not what it was. It was actually used for firefighters. Another invention that he's well known for is he had a patent for what's kind of the, I would say, the modern traffic light with three signals. And that came after seeing an accident that occurred. He sold to GE for, get this, $40,000.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. Garret.

Diane King Hall:

I know. I mean, if we measured it basically by today's standards, I don't know what that would be because I'd have to look back on when that was, so. But still, I'm like, "Ahh." I mean, because it's everywhere now. But increase your knowledge about these individuals who contributed to the fabric of America. So again, whether it's attending a workshop, a webinar, there are so many things done virtually now, listening to a podcast, helping your kid with a school assignment. Recently I helped my son and he picked a partner to work with. I love that it was a Black and a white kid, or African American, Caucasian American. I don't know what's the proper language nowadays, but I love that we got to participate.

And we know about different individuals like, say, Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks, but learning about different people like a Garrett Morgan or A.G. Gaston who was a big time businessman of his time, who helped put up Dr. Martin Luther King when no one else would. Or TED Talks, they're everywhere now. You can attend a TED Talk and increase your knowledge. That's one thing you can do easily. Knowledge, increasing your knowledge by attending a webinar, a workshop, an event in your local community, or following different individuals on social media. Those are such easy, no-brainer things that you can do. This month increase your awareness about Black businesses, Black brands, and just knowledge of inventions that Black people have contributed to the growth of America.

Bobbi Rebell:

So well said. I do want to bring up one more thing, and this was not planned, but one chapter of my book, Launching Financial Grownups, talks about the unique challenges of different cultures when it comes to money and the way that it influences behavior, habits, and goals, and priorities, frankly. Can you talk a little bit about that from the perspective of the African American community in a way that financial grownups can really both appreciate more the different challenges that African Americans may face and be more helpful?

Diane King Hall:

So a lot of times for African American individuals, a lot of times you see they're the first in their family. The first to receive a certain level of education, first to receive a certain level of economic growth, or having a certain income level. So they often become caretakers, and we hear this term, sandwich generation, I think this happens in immigrant communities as well where you're taking care of both your kids and your parents because of where you are and where you've advanced.

So a lot of times it can be difficult to advance even further because you're taking care of so many people. I don't want to cut against that because I'm a big believer in family, but you do have to set certain boundaries with regard to that. Take care of your budget and your household first before you try to take care of everybody else, even if you can. And set guidelines with regard to that help. And the reason I'm passionate about the subject with regard to economic empowerment within the Black community is because of the disparity with regard to the Black/white wealth gap and there's so much growth that needs to happen.

There's a stat that I found, I think this was from the Fed actually, where the latest information I have is from 2019. The median wealth in the US for Black households was a little over $24,000 compared to white households, which was a little over $189,000. So it's clearly more than room for improvement with regard to that.

So one of the things with regard to your subject of financial grownups, a lot of times I find, particularly with people who have certain education levels in the black community, they know this information and aren't necessarily applying it all themselves. So we can't just be libraries. We have to apply this knowledge, investing in your 401k, making sure you're putting up at least up to the company match. I know your audience typically doesn't need to tackle this, but maybe some people do, maybe some people aren't taking advantage of that. And I've heard of wealthy people tapping their 401ks, et cetera, for a loan, and you have to be careful of that because there's consequences of that. There's a family emergency and they feel like, ah, they have to, you know?

Bobbi Rebell:

Mm-hmm.

Diane King Hall:

Just be careful about what you define as an emergency. Yes, there are legitimate emergencies, financial life quakes that happen and then it's kind of like all the rules may have to adjust. I don't want to say go out the window, but adjust. And you may have a new starting point. And also don't beat up on yourself if you are not at the level you feel like you should be. If you're a Black household who's listening to this and hear that you're around that number, that wealth number, or even more than that, but feel like you should be even further, that's okay. Continue to listen to Bobbi's tips and other financial experts to help get you there.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's all a journey and it's a lot rockier than most of us will let on. But no matter what your income level, the truth is, we always have that financial stress. And that's something that we're working towards this year especially, we're focusing a lot on wellness on this podcast and more to come on that everybody, as you know. But it is a lot about making peace with where you are in your financial journey because we never really feel like we are there yet. And that's a little complicated. We'll tackle that more in a future episode. Maybe I'll have Diane back, but thank you so much for being here. Tell us where people can find you and your whole new platform. So much is happening.

Diane King Hall:

Okay, so you can find me on social media. It's the same handle, Diane King Hall, @dianekinghall, whether it's Twitter or Instagram. Yes, I'm on TikTok, but I don't do a lot there currently. And I'm also on YouTube. You can just search Diane King Hall there or it's also Diane King Hall Your Call, which will be leading me into the platform that I'm launching called Your Call with DK Hall. Which, again, will be a personal finance platform where you can gain knowledge, information, insight about how to apply personal finance principles to your life and live a better and richer life.

Bobbi Rebell:

Can't wait. Thank you so much.

Diane King Hall:

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

A big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to write because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working, and I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you. So first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends, and also financial therapists, and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest. And it was a lot of work, but I really love doing it, and I'm really happy with how it came out.

On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So I truly appreciate it and I really also appreciate all of your support.

So many great points in that interview, and I think one that really resonated with me, and also frankly, it's something that is getting more attention in general these days, is understanding the nuance between being a mentor and being a sponsor. Advice and listening and talking is great, but actually getting involved and lifting someone up with you is next level.

So what stood out to you? Get in touch on Instagram. You can DM me. I am @bobbirebell1. While you're there, by the way, take a screenshot when you're listening to this podcast and share it on your stories. Make sure to tag me so that I can thank you. Also, check out show notes for links to things that we spoke about in our interview. You can do that and get a free transcript of this and all of our episodes right on my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also sign up for my free newsletter where you will get tips and advice for financial grownups. Big thanks to my friend Diane King Hall for helping us all be financial grownups.

Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and bobbirebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 

 
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How to graduate into being a Financial Grownup (and eventually retire!) with Eric Brotman
How to graduate into being a Financial Grownup (and eventually retire!) with Eric Brotman
 

Episode Description: From financial wellness to tough love on what it really takes to control how and when you retire, Don't Retire.. Graduate author Eric Brotman shares a unique perspective on how financial grownups can make their long term goals a reality- even if the math doesn't work at first.

A little sneak peek into Eric Brotman’s episode!

Timestamps & Main Points:

  • 00:00 - Introduction

  • 04:20 - “There’s a difference between rich and wealth.”

  • 06:31 - You can’t jump into a college experience as a senior.

  • 10:09 - …a financial advisor is almost as intimate as a doctor.

  • 13:31 - It requires you to think about what you want to be when you grow up.


Eric’s Bio:

Eric D. Brotman, CFP®, is the CEO of BFG Financial Advisors, host of the Don’t Retire… Graduate! podcast, author of the Don’t Retire… Graduate! book, and regular contributor to Forbes.com. He and his team believe that financial literacy is the key to financial freedom, so they provide free and affordable educational resources and accessible financial planning with no asset minimums.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Eric!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Subscribe to the newsletter.

  3. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

Full Transcript:


Eric Brotman:

A financial advisor is almost as intimate as a doctor. We joke that there's no gown that you have to wear, or disrobing or anything, but it's very intimate. When you talk about money, you're talking about things that go well beyond, "Here's my balance." You're talking about, "I have a kid with a gambling issue." Or, "I'm worried about my spouse's spending." Or, "We have a substance issue," or, "special needs." I mean, it's incredibly emotional. It's not just a math problem.

Bobbi Rebell:

You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups, with me, Certified Financial Planner Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups. Because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together, we got this.

There's an important financial moment that I'm about to talk about. I don't know if you guys have experienced it or not, but I want everyone to focus. So hit pause on whatever else you're doing. Stop the multitasking, if you're like me, because I do do that when I'm listening to podcasts, and just really focus on what I am about to say. Is there a time when you feel you actually graduate into being a financial grownup? Has it happened yet? Do you think it's going to happen? What needs to happen to get you there? Is it a number you have in your head, in terms of what your net worth needs to be? Is it a feeling, like when you have a fully funded emergency fund, where you just feel like you have that weight off your shoulder, and you feel like you have just a sigh of relief? Or is it when you can see retirement on the horizon, and it doesn't scare you anymore?

My guest this week is Eric Brotman, and he is going to help us figure all of that out. Eric is a Certified Financial Planner, as well as the CEO of BFG Financial Advisors. He is also the host of the Don't Retire... Graduate! podcast, and author of a book by the same name. He's also a regular contributor to forbes.com. And as you will hear, Eric will also keep us laughing and smiling even while talking about some of the most awkward financial topics. Here is Eric Brotman.

Eric Brotman, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Eric Brotman:

Thank you, Bobbi. I've been called lots of things, but never a grownup, so this is a first.

Bobbi Rebell:

All right. Well, congratulations. You are a grownup. And by the way, we went to the same college, University of Pennsylvania, a couple years apart, and I can assure you, by our graduation dates, we are both grownups, whether we want to fully accept it or not.

Eric Brotman:

Fair.

Bobbi Rebell:

You are the CEO of BFG Financial Advisors, and you are also the host of a podcast called Don't Retire... Graduate! And now the book by the same name, Don't Retire... Graduate! And I want to read the subtitle, because it's a key part of here. "Building a path to financial freedom and retirement at any age." And I want anyone that hears the R word for retirement to stay with us, because this is really important. It is a book also for people nearing retirement, but it is very much a book for people that can't even imagine retiring, because it's coming for you. The alternative, well, that stinks. We're going to all get to the point where we retire. So we want to talk about it early so that you are ready.

And Eric, first of all, thank you for writing this book. The book, it has a sense of humor. It has your personality that just comes through right away. Do people just smile when they read it? Because you don't normally smile when you read a money book. You kind of decide to do it as a task, like a New Year's resolution task. This one, I was kind of giggling a little.

Eric Brotman:

Well, I'm glad to hear that. I have no filter, and so usually I try to very much be myself. And in the book, I try and quote great philosophers, and one I chose was Chris Rock. So no one's confusing him with Aristotle necessarily, but he had some great wisdom about wealth and about money, and I just think we take ourselves real seriously. And if money is, if it's taboo, or if it's considered boring, or something to sort of go the ostrich approach, you're not going to get where you want to be. So I think we have to make it relatable.

Bobbi Rebell:

What is the Chris Rock quote?

Eric Brotman:

The Chris Rock quote, and I'm paraphrasing, because it's not directly in front of me, but he said, "There's a difference between rich and wealth." And he also said, "Wealth is relative." He said, "If Bill Gates woke up tomorrow with Oprah's net worth, he'd want to jump out a window." And that's really a fascinating thing, because to you and I, I presume, if we were living with Oprah's net worth, we'd be okay.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah.

Eric Brotman:

In fact, we'd be better than okay. I would sign up for that. But it's all relative. And so the concept of wealth, really, first of all, there's lots of different ways to define wealth. There's a wealth of experience, and a wealth of knowledge, and a wealth of certainly financial and other types of wealth. But it's all different. And if you live in Manhattan, New York, or you live in Manhattan, Kansas, the same net worth doesn't necessarily mean you're equally wealthy in either place, either. There's a lot of relativity.

Bobbi Rebell:

One of the funniest things in the book, or at least an example of one of the funny things, is right out at the start, right out of the gate, you talk about the different courses, and I should say, the book has the structure of sort of going through college. So you've got the freshman year, or sophomore year, or junior year, and senior year, and then you have extra credits. But before that, you sort of introduce the concept, and you say you're going to choose the courses, right? You're going to plan your curriculum. And one way to go is the fully funded retirement. And that's a tough entry standard, but most rewarding, and you're going to take steps to get people through that program. But then the other one is the, "Work until I die." This is the alternate course of study. Let's find ways ... And then your solution here is, "Let's find ways to get your grades up," and you talk about extra credit assignments.

Talk about that perspective. It's sort of a tough love with some humor in it, but you're kind of saying, because I feel like a lot of financial advisors say, "Well, whenever you start is the best time, and you can always catch up." You can't always catch up, Eric.

Eric Brotman:

No. You can't always catch up. And it is better to start today than not to, no matter where you are, and you have to start wherever you are. But to me, the biggest exponent, and we talk about math in the book, and everyone loves math. No one hates math ever, right? But the exponent in the equation is time. It's the one thing that impacts the outcome the most. And so starting sooner is absolutely better. You can't jump into a college experience as a senior. You have to start, you have to sort of pay your dues. You can't jump into a sports team as a veteran. You're a rookie first. You have to sort of crawl before you sprint. And so doing some of the things, some of the blocking and tackling that you have to do to get there, the earlier you start, the better. And we try and get folks to start when they get their first paycheck, even if they're 14 at the time.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. My 15-year-old does not have an income stream yet. Speaking of children, one of my favorite subheadings, so again, the book is really funny, one of my favorite subheadings, and I guess you're alluding to the great Whitney Houston, the great singer-

Eric Brotman:

Yes.

Bobbi Rebell:

You say, "I believe the children are expensive." Talk to me about that.

Eric Brotman:

That was a Whitney Houston thing, and I was like, "I don't know if they're the future or not, but they're definitely expensive." And it's an entire chapter in the sophomore year about what it means financially to become a parent. And there's so many things about parenting. First of all, if anyone out there decides, "We want to wait until we can afford to be parents," they will never have children. Because no one can, at least in their current situation, afford to have children. It is wickedly expensive. It's also wonderfully rewarding, most of the time. And so I think, yeah, most of the time. I have a teenager too, so most of the time. But it's not something to take lightly. I mean, it really is expensive. And for families with two, and three, and four kids, some of the mistakes that we see people make around children is that they put their children's financial needs before their own.

And it's kind of like when you're on an airplane, and we talk about the airplane safety lecture in this chapter, one of the things is, they always say, "If there's a loss of cabin pressure, masks will drop down. Please secure the mask for yourself before securing someone else's." And I'm very pleased that I've never had that experience. I hope I never do. But if I do, it's going to be my instinct to protect my daughter first. That's a parental instinct. But if you do that and then you pass out, you're of no use to her at all. And so financially, we see people who literally make it impossible for them to retire so they can educate their kids. Retirement's the only thing you can't borrow for. You can borrow for anything else in this world except financial independence.

And so I will tell folks, and it is tough love, and it's meant to be funny, but it's also tough love. And I will say, "You are going to have some really well-educated kids. Which one are you planning to live with?"

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. That is some tough love. I mean, look, I talk about that so much in my book, Launching Financial Grownups, because we do over-indulge our children. We talk about the movement from helicopter parents to concierge parents. We're available at all times to solve their problems, often with money. But then where's the money for us when we go to retire? And it is true. The greatest gift you can give your children is your own financial independence, so that they can live their lives and not feel that they have to subsidize your life as they get older. And all of you, we all get older.

Another thing that I love that you brought into this book, that I don't know that I've really seen in a financial book, we always tell people when you're not feeling well, when you have a health concern, go get a second opinion, maybe even a third opinion. Very often we just send people to a financial advisor, and that's it. And they often find the fit based on personality, which is absolutely an important thing, but it also, I mean, you're here with tough love. Some people might be like, "Well, I like the guy that tells me I can spend more money. I'm going to go with him." It might be good to maybe meet with a few different people and see a different perspective. Talk to me about the idea of second opinions when it comes to money.

Eric Brotman:

I think no one person or individual or company has a monopoly on good ideas. You're going to get them lots of different places. And so a financial advisor is almost as intimate as a doctor. We joke that there's no gown that you have to wear, or disrobing or anything, but it's very intimate. When you talk about money, you're talking about things that go well beyond, "Here's my balance." You're talking about, "I have a kid with a gambling issue." Or, "I'm worried about my spouse's spending." Or, "We have a substance issue," or, "special needs." I mean, it's incredibly emotional. It's not just a math problem. The math is simple. You need to find someone with whom you relate, but you also have to find someone where you're in their wheelhouse.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah.

Eric Brotman:

You don't want to be someone's biggest client, or their smallest one. You want to be in a place where an advisor works with folks like you. And by the way, if that's the answer, if you walk in and say, "Well, so tell me about your clients. Who are your clients?" And they say, "They're just like you," make sure they articulate that a little further. I can tell you specifically that we work with multi-generational families, and most of the folks who show up at BFG are 40 to 60. They're sandwich generation. They look a whole lot like you and me. They are worried about their parents who are getting older, and their health concerns. They've got kids to educate. They're working 50, 60 hours a week. They're making money. They have tax issues. They're busy. They just want to know that they have an advocate and a set of eyeballs on everything.

We tend to play whack-a-mole financially, where we'll have a real estate person for this, or a mortgage person for that. And it's like, "Well, check the box." "Oh, insurance agent. Check. Got it. Let's move on." And the problem is, people don't talk to each other. And so you could have the best eight or 10 people in your world advising you, but if they don't know what one another are doing, that's like having 10 musicians on stage with no piece of music, and say, "Go play something."

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah.

Eric Brotman:

And they call that jazz, and I don't love jazz. So that's not the way to do it.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. No. I completely agree. I want to, just before we wrap up, I want to ask you a question about something we are talking about in 2023 here on the podcast, and that is financial wellness. Because one thing that you talk about in the book, you say, "Breathe. Pace yourself in making the big decisions in life, and focus on before you retire, the moment you retire, and after you retire." In other words, get some perspective, because people tend to get so, as you just said, caught up in these numbers and checking the boxes. Tell me more about the idea of just taking a breath, taking a moment.

Eric Brotman:

Some of that comes from my yoga training, because I do love yoga, and it does help to meditate or to be mindful. The reality is, most of the big decisions in our lives financially should not be made quickly. They have to be made thoughtfully. They have to be made in a paced way. These are rarely things that are urgent. It's extremely rare that something comes up and you're like, "Ooh, it's Monday, and by Tuesday I have to make this decision." And the times when that does happen, sometimes it happens when you're house hunting, if there's a competitive situation for a piece of real estate. I understand there are exceptions to that, but the decision to retire, the decision to give up your paycheck, and either to start doing consulting, or to be a grownup in a different way, and graduate into some other activity, it's major, and it requires more than just the math. It requires you to think about what you want to be when you grow up.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah.

Eric Brotman:

And we don't get asked that. Last time somebody asked me that, I was seven, and I was going to play for the Baltimore Colts, and there's lots of reasons why that didn't happen, but we don't get asked that. "So what do you want to be when you grow up?" And I know you're going to guest on my podcast, and I'm going to ask you that, and I'm going to expect a very creative answer. I can't wait. But I do think it makes sense to take your time.

These things, anyone who says, "They're almost gone. Get one now," that's a red flag. This is not the Cabbage Patch Kids of the eighties, where people were losing their minds at Toys"R"Us. This isn't something we're going to run out of. Take your time and do it well.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much. Eric Brotman, your book is Don't Retire... Graduate! It's a joyous book. Rarely will you find a money book that will make you giggle along the way. So I encourage everyone to pick up a copy. Eric, where can people be in touch with you?

Eric Brotman:

The best place to find our resources is brotmanmedia.com, which is where you'll find the podcast, some of our online courses, a lot of free resources, and of course the book and the workbook that goes with it, because we don't believe in homework. We like extra credit, so they're all extra credit assignments. And then for folks who want to check out our firm, it's bfgfa.com. That's BFG Financial Advisors.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much.

Eric Brotman:

Thank you, Bobbi. It's been fun.

Bobbi Rebell:

A big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live your richest life by helping your almost adult kids become everyday money smart. This book was not easy to write, because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids, and what was not working, and I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you. So first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear.

By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest. And it was a lot of work, but I really loved doing it, and I'm really happy with how it came out.

On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important, because the algorithm picks up on them, and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So I truly appreciate it, and I really also appreciate all of your support.

I love that Eric doesn't give homework, just extra credit. Keeping it positive there. Very much appreciated by this parent of a teenager. I wasn't joking, by the way, about Eric's book. He's got so much personality in it that it's really the most fun I've had reading a financial book in some time. Don't Retire... Graduate! is, like I said, it's really fun for a financial book, so you definitely do want to check it out. Eric was kind enough to have me on, by the way, his podcast, which is by the same name, Don't Retire... Graduate! So please check out my interview on Eric's podcast when you have a chance.

I am always looking, by the way, for ways to improve this podcast, so please DM me at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram with suggestions, and please help me grow the community. Take a screenshot of the podcast and share it on social media. Tag me so I can thank you as well. And by the way, some of you take pictures of you with my book, Launching Financial Grownups, and share it on social media. Thank you for that, and please definitely tag me on that so I can thank you. I really appreciate all of your support with Launching Financial Grownups.

If you missed anything on the show, you can of course listen to it again, but you also can check out our show notes, which has not only links to everything that we spoke about, but also how to get in touch with Eric, and as always, a complete transcript. You can do that right on my website, bobbirebell.com. Look for the podcast tab. While you're there, please be in touch by signing up for our free newsletter, where I share tips and insights on how to live a financial grownup life. Thanks everyone for joining us, and big thanks especially to Eric Brotman for helping us all be financial grownups.

Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends, and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this.

Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 

 
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Money tips for complicated families with Stepmom Diaries podcast host Cameron Normand
Money tips for complicated families with Stepmom Diaries podcast host Cameron Normand
 

Episode Description: Cameron Normand of This Custom Life, and Co-CEO of Stepfamily Magazine shares her strategies and advice for blended and otherwise complicated family finances

A little sneak peek into Cameron Normand’s episode!

Timestamps & Main Points:

  • 00:00 - Introduction

  • 04:13 - lots of complicated blended family challenges

  • 05:58 - they’re not trusting what you’re doing with money

  • 08:46 - you want to be having regular budget meetings

  • 11:02 - if you open an account for the step-kids and they blow it

  • 15:19 - it doesn’t feel like instant family


Cameron’s Bio:

Cameron Normand is host of The Stepmom Diaries podcast, Owner of This Custom Life, Co-CEO of Stepfamily Magazine and Co-founder of The Stepmom Summit. She provides stepmoms with tools and advice to help them get MORE out of their blended family lives. She is a Certified Stepparent Coach, the creator of the BLENDED Family Formula For Stepmom Success, and author of The Stepmom’s Gratitude Journal. She's been featured in The Cut, Business Insider, Upjourney, Stepfamily Magazine, and the Today Parenting Team, among others. Cameron received her BA from the University of South Carolina and her JD from Emory University School of Law. By day, she is a corporate politico in the Washington, D.C. area and serves on several non-profit boards. She was named one of the Washington Business Journal’s, “Women Who Mean Business.”

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Erika!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

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Full Transcript:


Cameron Normand:

You need to let your partner be the heavy because you need to focus on bonding with your stepkids and that includes where finances are concerned. If you open up an account for one of the stepkids and they go out and blow it all at the track and spend it all on fast food, you might be irritated, angry about that. Let your partner have that discussion with them. And then what I like to do, and I think it helps with the bonding, is sort of come back in after the fact, after they've been the bad cop and been the heavy and say, "Hey, how are you feeling? How did that conversation make you feel? What do you think about all this? What do you think about how you handled that situation? What would you do differently?"

Bobbi Rebell:

You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups. With me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups. Because you know what? Grownup life is really hard but together we got this.

Did you know that about 60% of children in the United States live in blended families? That's according to the Pew Research Center. I was surprised and then I started thinking about my family and those around me. I myself am a stepmother. In fact, many of you are familiar with my stepchildren because they inspired my recent book, Launching Financial Grownups. I also have a stepmother and four step-siblings. Sometimes it gets complicated, but apparently it's not unusual if it ever was. Maybe we're just starting to talk about it more. Cameron Normand has a lot to say about the matter. She is the stepmother to four kids, and that inspired what is a growing empire of resources for blended families and also, I should say otherwise complicated families. She hosts the Stepmom Diaries podcast on which I was a guest.

Cameron also provides resources through This Custom Life and Stepfamily Magazine where she is co-CEO. In our interview, we talk about how to handle money related parenting decisions in blended families, especially when, let's say, the bio parent and the stepparent don't agree. And what to say when people gush about how great it is that you got to have an "instant family," which is a trigger actually for many of us. If you don't get it, you're going to listen to this interview and it will all make sense. Here is Cameron Normand.

Cameron Normand. You're a financial grown up. Welcome to the podcast.

Cameron Normand:

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. This is fun.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm excited to have you because this is an episode that's going to be very special for me because it's something that I, it's not that I in no way hide it, but it's something that I don't usually talk about. And that is that I am a stepmother, I'm part of a blended family, and that is something that complicates everything, including our money. And you have a number of amazing resources for blended families, for stepmothers and also for everyone that knows a blended family, which is basically everybody. Because if you look around, this is the way our world looks right now. So tell us a little bit about you, how you got started in this and a quick synopsis because there's a lot of it of your sort of mini enterprise of resources for blended families.

Cameron Normand:

So you're right, the number of blended families is only growing. There are 1300 a day that are forming, and that statistic is actually really old. I think the number's actually much larger than that. So if you're not in a blended family, chances are someone that you know or love is. So these discussions are really important to have. And I realized that when I met my husband and he came with four kids and they were between the ages, at the time, eight and 14. So that's right in the heat of...

Bobbi Rebell:

That is the thick of it.

Cameron Normand:

That is really the thick of it. But I realized when I got into it, and by the time I was kind of knee deep in it and I thought I knew what to expect because I was a stepdaughter and had lots of complicated blended family challenges of my own growing up. But I got into it and realized I did not know what I was doing and I made all kinds of mistakes. I am very type A. I am lawyer by background and I looked for the resources. I mean, I was like, "Give me the handbook, where is this?" And the short answer is there wasn't one so I created it. So I host the Stepmom Diaries podcast. I own This Custom Life, which has resources for stepmoms and I co-own Stepfamily Magazine, which has a ton of resources for blended families. So I try to provide all the things that I didn't have, and I feel like if I can help one stepmom or blended family on their journey, then I've done my job.

Bobbi Rebell:

And truth be told, I have done a deep dive on your blog and there are so many articles that are relevant to me even as I've been a stepmom now for 16 years. I have one 26-year-old, one 23-year-old, and I also have, I guess I call myself a bio mom to a 15-year-old. So it's a double blend in that sense. And there were so many different articles that I related to. And one thing that you are very candid about that I think is something relevant to this podcast and why I wanted to have you here is that money questions aren't just about money when it comes to blended families because it's so nuanced because of the relationships. So tell us about your approach to money with blended families.

Cameron Normand:

That's so true. And really in any relationship, money can symbolize other stuff that's going on. If you have trust issues, it's going to manifest in some of these hard money conversations, which can really be amplified in blended families. So if your spouse had trust issues with their previous spouse, that could come out as you're having money conversations with them. If they seem like they're not trusting what you're doing with money or whatever, all of that, it's just all sort of intertwined. And these discussions can be really, really difficult.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's also complicated because there may be the biological mom, the ex-spouse on either side, because sometimes blended families have both spouses, have had previous marriages or children with other people. And so it's hard enough to be on the same page when it comes to money and the values associated with money with just your spouse. But then you have other parents in the mix that are also trying to instill their values, their financial values in children. So what do you do to manage that?

Cameron Normand:

It's hard. I mean, I think on most issues I follow the general principle of you can't control what you can't control. You can control what happens in your household. You can control how you react to things and how you act about things. And so when it comes to kids, if the other parent is doing things or teaching them financial lessons that you don't agree with, you don't want a badmouth their mom. You don't want to badmouth their dad, but you can have a conversation with them about how things are going to be handled in your household. So if you set up a bank account for them, you can talk about how that's going to be handled with them. And if you're setting up a bank account, chances are they're probably a teenager or at least close to a teenager and they're old enough to sort of understand that things at one household may look different than things at another.

And so you can end up having a really great influence on them financially, even if things are handled differently in the other house. But it can be really complicated, I mean these are hard issues even when you don't throw in all the different potential adults into the mix.

Bobbi Rebell:

It is hard and it's important. You say one of your money tips is to have conversations early and often. And I want to emphasize often because this isn't a check off the list and you're done, especially depending on the age that you become a stepparent. They may be able to understand things differently at different ages and also things change. For example, even your financial situation could change, hopefully for good and that brings up other complications, especially if, for example, spouses have different financial resources, there's a lot there.

Cameron Normand:

Absolutely. And the often is really important because you don't always get, I mean, sometimes you figure out on the not early side of things that you need to be having these conversations. So even when that happens, when you're already knee deep or waist deep in all this stuff, having the conversations often is really important because as you said, it doesn't... These challenges and these things to talk about, I mean it's sort of conversations that you would have just with your spouse if you weren't dealing with a blended family or a family of any sort. You want to be having regular budget meetings, you want to be having regular state of the state conversations. And with kids, teaching them to have those conversations regularly, even when they're out on their own and they're just sort of having those conversations with themselves, looking at their monthly budget and stuff when they've got their own apartments and stuff like that.

If you can install those habits early, better for them, but better for putting them in a situation where they are taking a hard look at all of this and being responsible and learning the right lessons and all of that kind of stuff.

Bobbi Rebell:

So true. It's also reality that sometimes it's uncomfortable being the stepparent and you're going to be put in awkward situations, things where there's kind of no winning answer. So you say your other money tip is get comfortable being uncomfortable.

Cameron Normand:

Yes. Don't be afraid to talk about the awkwardness. I mean I've had conversations with my stepkids, not necessarily about money where I've said, "Look, this feels weird. I know that you have two parents and I'm not one of them. I know it may feel weird to you to have me here expressing viewpoints on different things, but we have this unique opportunity to form this relationship that can be whatever we want it to be. It doesn't have to be, I'm not your mom, I'm not your dad. We can be whatever we decide that's going to be." So if you can call out the awkwardness, name the elephant in the room, then that makes them feel a little more comfortable having those conversations with you.

Bobbi Rebell:

It's so true. And the truth is, in a way, you get more freedom as a stepparent because you don't have to be the heavy in those things. And you can define how you want your relationship with your stepfamily, the whole family really to be because you do have a little more freedom in that sense. That said, it's also important to have expectations and another money tip of yours, to set boundaries.

Cameron Normand:

Absolutely. And I want to underscore something you just said, which is you don't have to be the heavy. I actually think stepparents shouldn't be the heavy. You need to let your partner be the heavy because you need to focus on bonding with your stepkids. And that includes where finances are concerned. If you open up an account for one of the stepkids and they go out and blow it all at the track and spend it all on fast food, you might be irritated, angry about that. Let your partner have that discussion with them. And then what I like to do, and I think it helps with the bonding, is sort of come back in after the fact, after they've been the bad cop and been the heavy and say, "Hey, how are you feeling? How did that conversation make you feel? What do you think about all this? What do you think about how you handled that situation? What would you do differently?" And make it more conversational.

Talk to them. You're not their friend, you're a stepparent, but take that tack of where they know they can talk to you about stuff and it'll help with the bonding because you really can't discipline. It's going to negatively impact your relationship with the kid if you try and get in and be the heavy too often. So I wanted to underscore that you said that because it's really important.

Bobbi Rebell:

Right back at you, what I love about what you just said is that you emphasize, you sort of spoke in a different tone. I don't know if you noticed that you were doing it, but you spoke in a gentle and sort of welcoming, inviting tone and I think how you speak, the tone in which you speak to your stepchildren, it's something that's a work in progress with me. I'm trying to get better at it, but it's something I'm really doing more as they're older. They're 23 and 26, as I said, is really my role is to be approachable with questions, to be there, to be a resource, not to solve their problems. But to put them on a path to find the solutions themselves, to be self-sufficient as adults, obviously because I wrote a book about that. But to give them the guidance and be there as someone that's not going to judge them, that's not going to necessarily discipline them that they can come to and say, "Oh, I kind of messed this up. What do I do?"

Because sometimes as kids get older, especially they're embarrassed, they feel they should know something. And maybe that's a great niche for a stepparent to be in, to not feel that they're going to be judged to go to you not as a friend because you're not their friend. It's a different relationship. I'm not sure, we need to figure out a buzzword for it, Cameron. I don't know.

Cameron Normand:

Definitely.

Bobbi Rebell:

But the loving stepparent, that's not going to judge, that's going to help them find the information to figure out the answers for themselves. And you don't... I'm not saying to keep information from your spouse, but you can have a different relationship with them. Do you agree with that? It can sort of be your own thing.

Cameron Normand:

I totally do, and I think with one of my stepkids in particular, she comes to me with stuff a lot of times before she talks to either of her parents about it because we have developed that ability for me to be a sounding board for her. And I think that that's such a precious relationship. That if you can establish that, and it doesn't always happen. Kids... It's just a hard role and it also can take five to seven years for a stepfamily to really bond and that includes bonding with the kids. So it can take a really long time and you have to kind of be in it for the long haul, but when you can kind of set yourself apart as a resource for them, as someone who just... They know you just want the best for them, they know that you're... When they tell you something, you're going to give them unvarnished, good advice that is only looking out for them, doesn't have an agenda, you're just sort of there. I think that's really, really valuable.

Bobbi Rebell:

And I like that you said five to seven years because, and that's something, by the way, on your blog, you do have a numerous articles really talking about the importance of taking a long-term view. That we have these sort of ideas that we're going to instantly bond with these young people or however old they are when they come into our lives. But you have this, I don't know if we call it a fantasy, but we have this sort of dream and idea that they're just going to bond with us and it's going to be right away or that if it doesn't work right away, we're toast. Right? That's not true. Sometimes it can be rocky at first, but really the stepfamilies, the blended families that work, it's not instant in many cases. It's often an investment that you have to make of time, of love, of good conversations and just as you say, of being approachable and being a resource for them.

Cameron Normand:

That's so true. And I think that this whole term instant family, and I can't tell you how many people, and you probably got this too.

Bobbi Rebell:

Everyone told me, "Oh, you have an instant family."

Cameron Normand:

Instant Family. All of a sudden you have these four kids and I'm like, "Yeah, it's not really... It doesn't feel like an instant family. I still feel like I don't really belong here." I mean this is like a weird, this instant family concept, is just not right and I wish that people would stop saying that.

Bobbi Rebell:

No, I couldn't agree more because I went from single to having three kids in a year and a half and everyone's like, "Oh, instant family." It's like, no, I have a newborn and I have two elementary school kids instantly. By the way, my final sort of comment and then I want to give you the last word, is that it's also a lot for them and I think it's really important for everyone involved in stepfamilies and blended families, not just the moms and the stepdads and the partners. Everyone that knows a blended family to understand that the parents married each other and they chose each other, but the kids didn't get necessarily a say in it. So this is coming right at them. So you have to really give them the time and the space to adjust to the blended family that in almost every case they had no say or very little say, and hopefully their parent gave them some feedback initially, but they didn't choose this.

They didn't fall in love and have that trajectory that the parents had. So we want to always be sensitive to that, that you may be all rah, rah, there may be a lot of complications, not the least of which is just the complications of growing up going on with them and with that. So Cameron, final word and where can people find you and be in touch?

Cameron Normand:

So I'm on Instagram @this_custom_life. I do have a little financial freebie at stepfamilymoney.com, which is a top 10 list of conversations that you should have with your spouse if you're marrying someone with kids in terms of finances.

Bobbi Rebell:

Wish I had that before. It all worked out, but wish I had that so everyone... Even if you're already married, get the list now, it's never too late.

Cameron Normand:

Absolutely. And then I host the Stepmom Diaries podcast so you can find me there.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you so much.

Cameron Normand:

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

A big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to write because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working and I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you. So first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest and it was a lot of work, but I really love doing it and I'm really happy with how it came out.

On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So I truly appreciate it and I really also appreciate all of your support. This was an intense interview for me as you could probably tell. I get pretty passionate when it comes to my own experiences in blended families, stressing the plural, blended families. I think we need to be talking more about it, especially acknowledging that as much as the parents, which is me, seem to get thrown into blended families and need time to find our way, the kids, also me, also get thrown into it. But in the case of the kids in these blended families, they didn't choose it.

So we as the parents need to really appreciate that side of things. It's not until recently that I started really thinking about it from that perspective. So I'm curious, what stood out to you about this conversation and more importantly, what did we miss that we should be talking about? Be in touch. You can DM me on Instagram at bobbirebell1, that's B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L and then the number one. Be sure to check out our show notes for a link to Cameron's free download, 10 conversations everyone must have when they settle down with someone who has Kids. You can find the show notes on my website, bobbirebell.com. Just look for the podcast tab and while you're there, you can also get a free transcript of the podcast and sign up for our free newsletter. Big thanks to the Stepmom Diaries' Cameron Normand for helping us all be financial grownups.

Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that.

First connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and @bobbierebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what, it really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for grown up friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial grownups.

 

 
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How to be less stressed about grownup money issues with author Jason Vitug
How to be less stressed about grownup money issues with author Jason Vitug
 

Episode Description: Happy Money Happy Life author Jason Vitug shares specific ways we can take action to manage financially stressful situations in our life. The Certified Yoga Instructor and breath-work specialist shares his own struggles and how he used meditation and a holistic approach to heal from being a self-described 'financial mess'

A little sneak peek into Jason Vitug’s episode!

Timestamps & Main Points:

  • 00:00 - Introduction

  • 02:41 - Happy Money, Happy Life

  • 04:28 - finance is the key stressor

  • 08:56 - the coping techniques

  • 10:58 - you’re going to catch yourself in a rat race

  • 12:47 - money can buy happiness


Jason’s Bio:

Jason Vitug is a wellness advocate, bestselling author of You Only Live Once and upcoming book Happy Money Happy Life. He's an entrepreneur, producer, and founder of

the financial wellness website phroogal.com

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Jason!

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Full Transcript:


Jason Vitug:

As you know, a lot of my Instagram, I'm doing asanas. Breathe in wealth, breathe out debt. It's just a clever way of getting people to understand the tie between health and wealth.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups, because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together we got this.

We are continuing our focus on financial wellness with what is a very unique and pretty special interview on this podcast. Jason Vitug has come a long way. He was a rising star in his job in finance, earning a very nice living when he actually started to get physically sick, very sick.

Well, long story short, Jason ended up putting his life on pause, traveling the world, and writing about it, reclaiming his life with a totally new approach, which he's going to tell us about. But if you think Jason is an advocate for all of us quitting our jobs and traveling the world, no way. In fact, Jason is going to share the importance, for example, of what he calls occupational wellness and using a holistic approach to be targeted and specific in getting on track with our money as financial grownups, and no, as important as yoga and meditation are, they will not pay off your student loan, but they will put you in the right mindset to find a path to get to your financial goals. Jason joined me to chat about his new book, Happy Money, Happy Life, which as you're going to hear, I still did not have a copy of when we recorded this interview, but I can't wait for it to come out so I can learn even more from my friend. Here is Jason Vitug.

Jason Vitug, welcome to the podcast.

Jason Vitug:

Thank you so much, Bobbi. Excited to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

I have been trying to have you on for quite some time. I did get you on for a summer watch series special episode, but you haven't come on to talk about your work, so I'm happy to have you here in celebration of your soon-to-be-released book, Happy Money, Happy Life. Congratulations. By the way, we have the same publisher that's a great publisher in Wiley. Tell us about the book, which let me just say, one small dig, I haven't gotten my copy yet, so I am waiting and excited to hear more about it.

Jason Vitug:

Yeah, you're basing this interview on our relationship and our friendship, so thank you so much. But I am excited to talk about Happy Money, Happy Life because it's a book that walks people through the eight dimensions of wellness. I think it's so essential and vital for people to understand that we're multifaceted, multidimensional, multilayered, and so if you think you are good with money, but you just haven't been able to level up and you're trying to figure out what is missing, it might be other aspects of your life. It might be your mental or emotional health. It might be your physical situation or your work environment. There are many aspects that affect how you manage money and affect your financial well-being. This is what the book is about and I'm excited to bring it out into the world.

As we mentioned, this is the first time I'm here at the show, and actually, this book, I dive deeper into my story. I talk about how I was a high-functioning financial mess and how I got myself to the point of financial success and realizing through the journey the importance of taking care of other aspects of my well-being. It really isn't just about financial milestones. It's about how am I feeling, how am I doing, how am I relating with others. I thought it's about time, and through all the stuff that we've been through, it is time to talk about this holistic approach to finances.

Bobbi Rebell:

Speaking of all that we have been through, I alluded to the fact that I've been trying to get you on this podcast, and you have turned me down many times. You were busy with other priorities during the pandemic. You're now a, I'm going to bungle the exact title, but I know that you are a certified yoga instructor, you're also a breathing specialist. Talk about how that relates to finding peace of mind when it comes to financial aspects of your life because there's a very direct connection that I think people don't always fully appreciate.

Jason Vitug:

Yeah, so finance is one of the key areas that stresses individuals out. It's actually the top number one stressor for most people and so it's important for us to understand there are tools and ways for us to deal with the financial stress that we're feeling at that moment. Yes, if creditors are calling you, if you have insurmountable debt, or any financial situations, you might not be able to resolve it right away, but you need techniques to cope with the stress because stress that's prolonged leads to mental health issues. That's one of the premise of the book as well.

For me, I dived deeper into my practice, and during the pandemic, I found myself going to yoga teacher certification online. I became a breathwork specialist. I started teaching meditation and incorporating these aspects of the things that help me heal into the financial conversation. As you know, a lot of my Instagram, I'm doing asanas. Breathe in wealth, breathe out debt. It's just a clever way of getting people to understand the tie between health and wealth. At the end of the day, we know that our wealth can help us gain access to resources and tools, but also, there are some aspects of money that can affect our health outcomes. That has to do with our habits, our behaviors, and so that's where the yoga, that's where the breathwork, that's where the meditation aspect is essential and vital in improving the overall quality of our life.

Bobbi Rebell:

Some of our listeners might think, "Well, I don't have financial distress. I have enough money. My career is going gangbusters. I'm earning more money than ever before and yet I have so much stress." You actually can relate to that because you had a career earlier in your life that was quite lucrative and yet you had very specific health issues that, in fact, were not so easily solvable by conventional medicine. You had to actually take a look at what's going on and that had to do with approaching your total life in a very different way. People can have these issues even if they don't think they have money problems, per se.

Jason Vitug:

Yeah, I think many of your listeners are high-functioning, high achievers, and they're looking at, "Okay, well, I'm good," as you mentioned, "I'm good with money. I'm on track to retire." But there's always this nagging question, "Am I doing everything I want to do in life?" Or something is missing.

I tend to ask people, when you're laying in bed, "No, what's keeping you up at night?" If it's not finances and if it's not the kids, if it's not X, Y and Z, chances are there's another aspect of your well-being that's not being addressed. For me, I mean, I climbed up the corporate ladder, I made the six figures, I drove the nice cars, I lived in Palo Alto, I did all these really amazing things, and then realizing, "Wait a minute, something is missing." But I wasn't quite sure, because when you are in this cycle, when you are on the traditional path that we grow up in, and that we're told to follow, it's very difficult for us to find another way or an alternative, and so for me, I need to take a step back. I need to find a different course of action.

Realizing that when I developed vertigo, I had bloodshot eyes for two weeks, so you couldn't stare at my eyes without crying because my eyes were bloodshot, my mental gymnastics to deal with other aspects of my wellness finally took a toll and was manifesting itself physically. When things start manifesting physically, it's very difficult to ignore them, and so me making a different course, having the financial means, I decided to backpack around the world, find myself, but also realizing that work is vital to our wellness, so you can't not just stop working. I think it's important for people to understand that. That's one of the dimensions of wellness. It is occupational well-being and so it's a matter of getting our finances right in order for us to reclaim back our time. That gives us the opportunity and the ability to find more meaningful work.

Bobbi Rebell:

One of those things, I mean, you're not going to go do yoga and learn proper breathing technique and have your money situation fixed, you have to actually go in and assess your situation and come up with different plans, different approaches to actually get on a path to financial wellness. It's not just about, "Do some yoga and things are going to be all okay."

Jason Vitug:

Well, that's the thing. Yoga, meditation, breathwork, those are all coping techniques that help you right then and there because it brings you back into your body, and also, it works with your nervous system, so when you're thinking about financial stress or any other type of stress, it is working your nervous system. That's why you're shaking, that's why you're sweating. That's why you're unable to think and process any information, and so when you do these type of activities, it brings you back to the present moment and allows you to regulate your physical body, so this way, you can reassess your financial situation with a clearer mind, so you're not in that flight-or-fight mode, you're now in thinking mode, and you're able to assess it clearer and you're going to be able to find the path.

These are, again, just coping techniques, and you don't certainly have to be fit because I get people that say, "Okay, well, I'm not fit. I can't do yoga, I'm not flexible. I can't sit and do meditation because my mind is running rampant, and I breathe, so why do I need to do breathwork?" Part of this again, too, these are all just mindful practices and you do what you can do. Again, if you're feeling stressed in whatever aspect of your life, these are coping techniques that help you find the calm in order to address that financial storm that you're trying to avoid or that you see in the future. I think that is vital.

Bobbi Rebell:

One of the common things that people come up to me, especially, I've been talking a lot about my most recent book, Launching Financial Grownups, is they feel like, "If I only had $10,000 more, I could get the car I want. If I only had a budget of $30,000 more, I could get the house that I want. If I only was going to be able to reach the magic retirement number that people say." "What's your number?" is always a popular conversation when you're out with friends, at least maybe when we were younger. Maybe we're toning it down a little bit more recently. What's your advice to people like that, that always, no matter where they are, they always feel like if they only had that next raise, they would no longer be stressed about money? Does that really ever fix it?

Jason Vitug:

It does not. I want people to understand arrival fallacy, the belief that once we arrive at the specific financial milestone, it's going to solve all our problems. When you understand arrival fallacy, that it is just a mental way of us believing that happiness and joy, satisfaction, it's going to happen when we achieve that income goal, or that financial milestone, or buying that house. Certainly, you might feel a boost in your feelings, but that's not long-lasting. Then you're going to try to find a different milestone, or a different goal to achieve, and then eventually, you're going to catch yourself in the rat race, and it's going to be never-ending, and so I want people to understand that there is such a thing, a psychological term such as arrival fallacy.

It's important to be more mindful about the journey, 'cause at the end of the day, you are as happy because of the journey, I mean, the ups and downs, the twists and turns, the barriers that you face, and so whenever you are looking back, you're not really looking at the prize, or what you've achieved, you're looking at all the work that you've gone through, you've done in order to achieve those goals. I think that is so important. Again, being more mindful, being more present allows you to experience the journey and enjoy it. Again, it's going to be ups and downs or a lot of bad parts of it, but again, too, you take it in stride because it's just part of the journey to arrive at one milestone that leads you to the next.

Bobbi Rebell:

Before I let you go, I want to ask you for three key lessons, three money tips, if you will, for 2023 that will get people started, not just the coping things, we've talked about that, but three specific things they can do with respect to their money that will make a key difference for the year and beyond.

Jason Vitug:

It's really shifting mindset beliefs. One thing I want people to understand, that money can buy happiness when you spend it on wellness. This isn't spending it on just a massage, or a facial, or a candle. This is spending it on things that have long-lasting benefits. I am challenging people to understand that you can utilize money to buy things that can promote your ability to choose happiness. If you're buying back your time, you can then spend that with your family. If you're buying back your time, you can then spend that on finding more meaningful work, et cetera. I want people to understand that. I think that's one kind of idea and philosophy that I have that I wish people incorporate in 2023 and beyond.

The other piece that I want people to understand is that social health is vital. I think we've all learned this through the pandemic and the quarantine and more and more research is seeing how that's affecting our mental health and affecting our financial wellness. For me, it's okay to spend money on friends. It's okay to spend money on gifts. It's okay to spend money on dinners and movies when you are socializing with family and friends and colleagues. I know that's like a no-no in a lot of personal finance worlds, but yes, because we are investing our resources in order for us to get back this social equity, the social wealth that's been missing.

The other piece, I'm more on that mindful philosophical aspect of it, but you are not your work. Yes, that's another aspect of it. Work is a means for us to gain income and revenue if it's a business, but understand there are all these other aspect of you, and I think we put so much emphasis on the career that we have, on the job title, and then the associated benefits of salary and income that we forget what truly makes us is a much more holistic approach. Those are the three money/financial-related things, all focus on mindset because I think that is what's going to shift people from living in fear into living in abundance.

Bobbi Rebell:

Perfect. Thank you so much. Now, I know the book will be available everywhere, Happy Money, Happy Life by Jason Vitug, so everyone, pick it up. You're going on tour. I think this is going to be your third tour. The first two were pretty epic. What's going on now?

Jason Vitug:

Yes, this is my third and final tour. It's the only time that my body can still be in a vehicle. I am visiting all 50 states, holding events at independent bookstores. I think it's essential for us to support local economies and bookstores and coffee shops are the place where people socialize and I think working with independent booksellers is the way to go, so I am doing that, and it's going to be the first-ever attempt to visit all 50 states in one year. You can follow me at frugal.com/happy, and on social media, I'm active on Instagram @JasonVitug and on Twitter @JasonVitug. That's where you can find information about the tour. You can engage and have conversations, and I hope to see you in person so we can shake hands, we can hug, we can converse.

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, I look forward to seeing you in New York City. Thanks, Jason.

Jason Vitug:

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

A big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your Almost Adults Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to rate because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working, and I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you, so first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money-expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest. It was a lot of work, but I really loved doing it, and I'm really happy with how it came out.

On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them, and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people, so I truly appreciate it, and I really also appreciate all of your support.

Hard to pick out my favorite line of that interview. There were so many good ones. But I do love how towards the end of the interview, Jason gave us permission to spend on getting back what he calls social wealth that we need to get back. There were so many gems in that interview. I encourage everyone to go to the podcast show notes and maybe highlight some of your favorites. We do provide a full transcript for free. You can find them on my website, just my name, bobbirebell.com, just click on the podcast tab, or you can even use the search bar, and look for Jason Vitug, V-I-T-U-G. While you are there, by the way, click on the button to sign up for our free newsletter to get more tips and advice on living your best financial grownup life.

If you enjoy the free content, including this free podcast, it is truly meaningful and really helps us get the word out if you just take, for example, a screenshot and post it on the social media of your choice, tag me. Most places, I'm Bobbi Rebell. On Instagram, it's Bobbi Rebell and the number 1. Also, let us know what your best ways to cope with financial stress are. You can just DM me and let us know and I will share it with the community. I can't wait to read Jason's book, Happy Money, Happy Life. Big thanks to Jason for giving us a preview and for helping us all be financial grownups.

Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @BobbiRebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebel on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. Most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time. Thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 

 
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How to be a grownup Financial Feminist with Tori Dunlap
How to be a grownup Financial Feminist with Tori Dunlap
 

Episode Description: Tori Dunlap of Her First 100k returns to the podcast to share how she grew her multi-platform business, highlights from her bestselling book Financial Feminist and her advice for financial grownups who want to focus on financial wellness in 2023

A little sneak peek into Tori Dunlap’s episode!

Timestamps & Main Points:

  • 00:00 - Introduction

  • 03:58 - “Worry Less".”

  • 06:27 - You have big dreams until society tells you they’re to big.

  • 10:48 - You show up differently for your career.

  • 12:34 - Financial wellness is actually the thing that is the hinge for all of the rest of it.

Listen to Tori’s previous episode on the podcast HERE!


Tori’s Bio:

Tori Dunlap is an internationally-recognized money and career expert, and podcast host. After saving $100,000 at age 25, Tori quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women actionable resources to better their money. She has helped over three million women negotiate salary, pay off debt, build savings, and invest.

Host of the #1 Business Podcast, Financial Feminist; author of the book “Financial Feminist” (Harper Collins); and co-creator of Treasury, an investing education platform that has over $30M invested (featured on New York Times Business front page), Tori's work has been featured on Good Morning America, the Today Show, NBC, Fortune, BBC and more.

A Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree, Tori now travels the world writing and speaking about personal finance, online businesses, and confidence for women.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Tori!

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Subscribe to the newsletter.

  3. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

Full Transcript:


Tori Dunlap:

Financial wellness seems to often get left out of the conversation. It's physical wellness, it's now mental wellness, which is so important, but it's also like if you want to go to therapy, you need money. You want to go to the gym, you need money for a gym membership and financial wellness is actually the thing that is the hinge for all of the rest of it. There's something so beautiful about this idea of when you have money, you have options.

Bobbi Rebell:

You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together we got this. When you have money, you have options. So true. If you are listening to this, I'm going to bet just like our guest, you want to create more options for yourself and for those you love. Our guest this week is Tori Dunlap. She was first on the podcast in 2018. At that time she had not even created the brand that has made her millions, the brand, Her First 100K. Now, it seemed like an impossible goal. She was going to save $100,000 by age 25, but you'll hear in her interview for example, that even her father, who was probably her biggest cheerleader, even he questioned it.

He questioned her going public with it, and what would happen if she didn't make it? Well, she addresses that. It is clear now that she definitely did it and she used that success as a platform that has now extended to include her financial feminist podcast and her bestselling book by the same name. Oh, by the way, also she has more than 2 million TikTok followers. That's a big part of her story. And Tori also has an investing education app called Treasury and has been on all the big TV shows, including but not limited to Good Morning America and The Today Show. Let's get to it. Here is Tori Dunlap. Tori Dunlap, my friend. You are so much a financial grownup and a financial feminist. So good to have you back.

Tori Dunlap:

Thank you for having me. It's been a minute.

Bobbi Rebell:

I have been watching your star rise. You are now out with, and I have the privilege, we had some scheduling things, so I get to interview you. Your book's been out about a month, super bestseller everywhere, New York Times, the whole deal. Your podcast, top of the charts. How are you feeling? I know you're taking a big vacation.

Tori Dunlap:

I'm feeling pretty tired but very fulfilled. This was very much a team effort. Me and my team worked really, really hard. And yeah, New York Times was something that I had just nonstop thought about really for my entire life, but especially the last six months to a year. And it was so validating to have that happen, but also a really interesting thing where I'm like, okay, what now? So we're going to take a vacation and figure that out.

Bobbi Rebell:

Definitely deserving a vacation. And I love that you said that because we were just talking. You were on my podcast. We'll put the link October 3rd, 2018, still in a 9:00 to 5:00, still under a different brand before you came up with a genius that is, Her First $100K, such a great brand name and Financial Feminist. How is that even available because it's so perfect. In the before times I know when I came out with my first book, which was around the time I met you. Probably it came out in 2016, I probably met you 2017 ish. People were shocked. They're like, how did you get in Cosmo Magazine? How did you get all this press coverage and everywhere, all over the place and all the TV? And I was like, yeah, you just didn't notice that I was working two jobs for years. Talk to me about that. What advice, for example, would you give to the Tori that I met in the before times?

Tori Dunlap:

Worry less. I'd tell that to yesterday's Tori, and I'd tell that to today's Tori and future Tori. My ambition has been kind of a drug for me where it's got me where I am. I also, it's very easy to overdose if we're continuing the metaphor. It's so interesting because back in 2018 I had all of these aspirations and all these goals and I've achieved most of them and I still want to keep going. And so it's just really interesting to think about. I was very concerned with how much I wanted things and the timeline it was happening and it's like truly it all works out at some point. And I joke that the business I knew I was capable of in 2018, if a genie had come out of the bottle and then here's the business, I wouldn't have been equipped to run it. I wouldn't have had the skillset, I wouldn't have had the experience and the trials and tribulations.

And so it's so interesting even to think about, what was that, almost five years ago where it's just absolutely nuts to think about how much has changed in that time. But also the common question I get now from people, which is very sweet, is it's like, did you ever think? And I'm like, yeah, I did. And that's a very, we don't like hearing women say that. You're supposed to say like, "Oh my God, I never thought I was capable of this. I never thought any of this would happen." And I'm like, no, I knew, but I just didn't know when and I didn't know how, and I was very impatient. So I would say worry less, be excited where you're at.

Bobbi Rebell:

Worry less. But also one thing that struck me in remembering some of our sort of behind the scenes conversations, and we've had a few over the years. I remember talking to you soon after you sort of blew up on TikTok. One thing you said to me was I didn't just go on. I took a step back first. I watched and I listened. And by the way, you're in my book, Launching Financial Grownups, and you talk about the importance of taking a step back and listening. And in that case it's about generational communication about money. But you've always been someone that even though you have this ambition, you're very thoughtful and intentional. This is not something that happened accidentally. It's not something where you got lucky, you actually had plans and then implemented them. So talk to people about that, whether it's TikTok or whatever, their sort of goal that is going to shock people when they say, I will be doing this. Talk about how you plan.

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah, the first thing is I have a ton of privilege. So it's like how much of this is hard work and how much of this is privilege? I think it's both. So it's the first thing to really talk about. Second, I talk about this in my book Financial Feminist, but I think especially as women are a member of any marginalized group, is you have big dreams until society tells you that they're too big. And this happens all the time. You have these big aspirations as a kid. I want to be an astronaut, I want to be a this, and it's like, and then at some point society tells you, play smaller, take up less space. And I think actually one of the big bravest, most outrageous things you can do is say things that might shock people. I was like you're going to do that. And I'm like, yeah, of course I'm going to do that. And also with women is that we do have the tendency because we've been told to play small, is we set these smaller goals for ourselves because we're worried of failure.

And the truth is, it's even my 100K goal, back in the day when I was starting my own hundred, you know trying to progress towards saving a 100K at 25, I remember my dad well intentionedly, but he called me and he was like, "So you've gone public with this goal, what if you don't hit it?" And I'm like, then I have $80,000. And that's still a huge accomplishment. And yeah, I might not hit it, but I purposely set a goal that was felt a little challenging and felt at times, how am I going to do this? As opposed to just like, oh yeah, I'll save the money that I know I can during a period of time. And so when you're setting goals, it's a big brave thing to shock people with how big they are. But shock yourself too. Be like, I'm not exactly sure how this is going to happen, but I'm going to set it and work towards it and even if it doesn't happen, I've still made a ton of progress.

Bobbi Rebell:

So this is your first of many bestsellers. No doubt. I've written two books, not New York Times bestsellers. So guys, help me out. And again, this is being recorded about a month after it's been out. So you've been talking to people, you've been hearing reactions, you have a huge audience that gives you feedback and they are not shy about it. If you could take one sort of theme from the book that you wish you had said more about or that you regret you didn't say enough about, however you want to phrase it, given the reaction of your audience what would that be? What do you wish you said more of and maybe would be the light to the next book, the pathway to your next book?

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah, that's a great question. I haven't really thought about that. Obviously I'm biased, but most of the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. I think that it was a really great opportunity for me to create something very tangible and physical for a very digital business. And I think that that's just been so thrilling is being able to give money advice that also acknowledges all of the systemic barriers and the patriarchy and also insert a Timothy Shalome reference or an office quote. And that's very much me. So the vast majority, and especially from our audience, people have been loving it, which is lovely. I don't wish I had done this differently, but it's a good reminder. Some people come to the book and they're like, all right, I'm ready for more. And that's a perfect segue into next book because this is a very like-

Bobbi Rebell:

Well, I guess that's what I'm asking you is what resonated the most, I guess is what I'm asking. What really hit home that you're like, yeah, for me there was a chapter where I literally go through how a paycheck looks and what you need to know about each thing, all this ridiculous jargon that they put in. And there was talk at one point that I should cut it out because everyone knows it. That chapter hits home, people love it. And I'm like, wow, I should do more of this is literally what all the acronyms are. What for you stands out like, oh my god, they love this. I had it in there, but I didn't really, I underestimated how important this theme was.

Tori Dunlap:

I think the question I keep getting asked book and other things, when we get feedback from people, which we get messages now every five minutes, and it's so humbling and it's always like I paid off $10,000 of debt. I negotiated 20% raise. But the interesting thing, it is always the second part that just hits me in the face, which is comma, and I feel so much more confident in every aspect of my life now. And one of the things that we really talk about internally as a team with Her First 100K is like we're not really a financial company. We are a women's or a feminist company that happens to talk about money and that confidence when you are financially whole and financially stable ripples through every aspect of your life. And so actually that's something I'm really interested in exploring more of is what does it feel like to be confident as a woman, and how does that actually all stem from getting your financial stuff together? Because I think you show up differently in your relationships.

You show up differently in your career. I know if I go on a date and a man disrespects me, it's like, I don't have the time for you. I'm not going to do this. I don't need anything from you. I don't need money from you. I don't need stability. I have built that for myself. If I go into a work with a client or if I was still working a 9:00 to 5:00 and yet I had this financial stability, I can leave at any time. I can say, actually, this isn't serving me anymore. And what, again, we were talking about playing small versus playing big, what an incredible opportunity to walk into any room and know, a, I belong here, and b, if things get uncomfortable, I don't have to be here because I have the confidence, the stability, the option to walk away. That's one thing we're really interested in exploring in the future and potentially with a second book or a third book, is like what does that look like to not only be financially confident, but to use that confidence to show up differently in every aspect of your life?

Bobbi Rebell:

So brilliant, and it really ties into something we're talking about so much on the podcast for 2023, which is financial wellness, that it's not just about the numbers, it's about how you approach the numbers, because sometimes you can't solve your problems overnight and sometimes because of the systemic issues you can't solve them at all, and you have to find workarounds to just make your life work. Can you talk a little bit about the idea of financial wellness and how that impacts our overall wellbeing?

Tori Dunlap:

Yeah. I mean specifically with women, I think it's really interesting because we have these different definitions of wellness and a lot of it's been gentrified and commodified, but financial wellness seems to often get left out of the conversation. It's physical wellness, it's now mental wellness, which is so important, but it's also, again, if you want to go to therapy, you need money. You want to go to the gym, you need money for a gym membership and financial wellness is actually the thing that is the hinge for all of the rest of it. And I think there's something so beautiful about this idea of, again, when you have money, you have options and that you can use money to buy stability and happiness and to try to navigate capitalism to the best of your ability. We talk in the book about the personal finance equation.

A lot of people think it's a hundred percent personal choices. My not so secret nemesis, Dave Ramsey likes to think that it's a hundred percent personal choices, and the reason you're not rich is because you don't work hard. And like you said, I think it's about 20% personal choices and 80% systemic factors like racism, ableism, sexism, homophobia, recession, lack of paid family leave, all of the things that you're up against as not an individual but at a society level. And so all we can do is try to navigate it to the best of our ability to try to take care of ourselves so that when we're taken care of we can start changing the world for everybody else. But I think that starts with, like you said, financial wellness. That starts with you putting your oxygen mask on first. You can then help others, and so you can also create a plane where everybody gets an oxygen mask. It's not just for a select few individuals.

Bobbi Rebell:

Tori, thank you so much. I love watching your star shine brighter and brighter. Tell everyone, the few people that may not know where to follow you, find you, all the things we know everyone, your book, your book is everywhere. Sold out some places, by the way, let's just put that out there, but give your plugs.

Tori Dunlap:

Thank you, Bobbi, for your support of me since the beginning. Her First 100K is where you can find me, H-E-R-F-I-R-S-T100k.com. @herfirst100k on all the socials, and I host the Financial Feminist podcast and I'm the author of the Financial Feminist book.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you, Tori.

Tori Dunlap:

Thank you.

Bobbi Rebell:

A big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups. Live your richest life by helping your almost adults' kids become everyday money smart. This book was not easy to write because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working, and I also had to be prepared to share with all of you. So first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest and it was a lot of work, but I really love doing it and I'm really happy with how it came out.

On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people, so I truly appreciate it and I really also appreciate all of your support. One of my favorite things that Tori said was when she talked about financial wellness, she said, "Put on your oxygen mask first so you can help other people." That sounds great. But then she added, "Also think about creating a plane where everyone gets an oxygen mask." Think about it. If you're enjoying this podcast, please share it with your community. For example, you can just take a quick screenshot, share it on social, tag me if it's on Instagram @bobbirebell1, or if you do it on LinkedIn, which is a great place to share as well, I'm under Bobbi Rebell Kaufman.

I also have a free newsletter that I want to give to all of you with more ways to be financial grownups and live a life that incorporates financial wellness. There is a link to get on Be Free newsletter list right in the show notes, or you can look for the signup on my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also, by the way, check out my newest venture, Financial Wellness Strategies. The URL there is financialwellnessstrategies.com. I loved having Tori Dunlap back on the podcast. Her book, Financial Feminist is a bestseller for good reason. It is a great read. Pick up a copy. Big thanks to Tori Dunlap for helping us all be financial grownups. Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall.

You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind word so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 

 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate
5 Financial Lessons From 2022 for a Better 2023 with Kevin Mahn
5 Financial Lessons From 2022 for a Better 2023 with Kevin Mahn
 

Episode Description: Hennion & Walsh Asset Management  President and Chief Investment Officer Kevin Mahn shares his top 5 lessons for the New Year including how to interpret information from the Fed about inflation and whether it is time to try to time the markets.

A little sneak peek into Keven Mahn’s episode!

Timestamps & Main Points:

  • 00:00 - Introduction

  • 04:33 - Lesson #1: Does the Federal Reserve have a crystal ball?

  • 05:47 - Lesson #2: Past performance is not indicative of future results.

  • 06:56 - Trying to time the market is often an exercise in futility

  • 08:33 - Have a personalized long-term financial plan in place and stay disciplined

  • 10:00 - Consider investment opportunities given the outlook for the economy


    Kevin’s Bio:

Kevin D. Mahn is the President and Chief Investment Officer of Hennion & Walsh Asset Management. Mr. Mahn is responsible for all of the Wealth and Asset Management products and services offered at the Firm, including the SmartTrust® series of Unit Investment Trusts (UITs).

Mr. Mahn also was the Portfolio Manager of the family of SmartGrowth® Mutual Funds. These mutual funds were target-risk-oriented “mutual funds of ETFs” designed to track the Lipper Optimal Indices. Mr. Mahn is also the author of the quarterly “ETF and CEF Insights” and “Market Outlook” newsletters and a co-author of the book, Exchange Traded Funds: Conceptual and Practical Investment Approaches, © 2009 Riskbooks. Articles written by Mr. Mahn have been published in The Journal of Investing and The Journal of Index Investing. Mr. Mahn is also a contributor to Forbes, Talk Markets, and Seeking Alpha.

Prior to Hennion & Walsh, Mr. Mahn was a Senior Vice President at Lehman Brothers where he held several senior management positions, including CAO of the High Net Worth Product and Services group within Lehman’s Wealth and Asset Management division as well as COO of Lehman Brothers Bank, during his eleven-year tenure with the Firm.

Mr. Mahn received his Bachelor’s degree in Business Administration from Muhlenberg College and his M.B.A. in Finance from Fairleigh Dickinson University. Mr. Mahn has also served as an adjunct professor at Fairleigh Dickinson University within the Department of Economics, Finance, and International Business. In 2015, Mr. Mahn received the “50 Under 50” award, which recognizes the College’s top alumni business leaders under the age of 50, from the Silberman College of Business at Fairleigh Dickinson University.

Mr. Mahn currently serves on the Board of Directors of NICSA and was formerly a Co-Chair of the NICSA UIT Industry Committee, winning the 2014 and 2016 NICSA MVP Awards for his accomplishments in that role. Kevin also won the Rising Stars of Mutual Funds Award from Institutional Investor in 2009.

Mr. Mahn has appeared in/on CBS News, Fox News, CNBC, Fox Business News, Wall Street Journal, Investor’s Business Daily, Fortune, Forbes, New York Times, Financial Times, USA Today, Bloomberg, Reuters, Nasdaq and Yahoo! Finance.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Kevin!

  • @kmahnhw

  • @hennionandwalsh

  • @SmartTrustUIT

Follow Bobbi!


Did you enjoy the show? We would love your support!

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We love reading what our listeners think of the show!

  1. Subscribe to the podcast, so you never miss an episode.

  2. Subscribe to the newsletter.

  3. Share the podcast with your family, friends, and co-workers.

Full Transcript:

Kevin Mahn:

I am certainly not suggesting that the days of volatility are behind us because they're not. But what I'm suggesting with better days ahead is I think we have hit peacockishness. I think we have now hit peak inflation and if in fact that's the case and the Fed ultimately stops raising interest rates by the end of the second quarter of this year, well then better days should be ahead for certain areas of the stock market and certain areas of the bond market. But unfortunately Bobbi, not for the US economy.

Bobbi:

You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups. With me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of, Launching Financial Grownups. Because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together we got this.

You can't get around it. For most investors, the numbers were pretty ugly in 2022, the S&P 500 finished 2022 down almost 20%. The seventh worst year for the index stretching back to 1929. That is according to FactSet Data. But wait, if stocks were down, was their safety in bonds? That's a no. Bonds, which traditionally do well when the stock market suffers and can cushion the below, that's why we talk about diversification, were also hammered last year. The reason for this is a little bit complicated but has to do with the Fed and inflation and a lot of unusual stuff that happened in 2022 that usually just doesn't all converge at the same time.

In other words, there are very specific lessons that we learned that have us rethinking theories and strategies that we took for granted about investing. And that is what we are going to be talking about today. What are the lessons that we uniquely learned in 2022, and what can we do with them in this new year 2023?

Kevin Mahn, is the President and Chief Investment Officer of Hennion & Walsh Asset Management. Mahn, is responsible for all the wealth and asset management products and services offered at the firm, including the SmartTrust series of unit investment trusts. And we're going to explain what that is in our interview. If Kevin sounds familiar, that's because he is on television a lot talking about investing in personal finance. He does not make a lot of podcast appearances, so this is a real treat for me. He has a unique gift for explaining pretty complicated stuff in a way that makes sense for all of us and is going to motivate us to learn more and just as importantly to take action in 2023. Here is Kevin Mahn.

Kevin Mahn, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Kevin Mahn:

Thanks for having me Bobbi. It's great to be here.

Bobbi:

Well, it's great to have you here. You are the President and Chief Investment Officer at Hennion & Walsh Asset Management. So you deal with all kinds of different market situations. You also have SmartTrust, which we can talk about a little bit what that is in a few minutes. Before we get to the lessons learned from 2022 that we can bring into 2023, I want to get your general take on where we are as we move into this new year in terms of the markets and the economy, inflation and all the things that people are worried about.

Kevin Mahn:

Absolutely and I think your listeners will be happy to hear Bobbi, that our overall macro theme for 2023 is 'Better days ahead.' Now, when I say that, I'm not implying that the days of inflation are behind us because I think inflation will likely linger for the next couple of years. I'm not suggesting that the Federal Reserve is going to stop raising interest rates because I think they continue to raise interest rates, at least through the first half of next year by another 75 basis points. And I'm certainly not suggesting that the days of volatility are behind us because they're not.

But what I'm suggesting with 'Better days ahead' is I think we have hit peacockishness. I think we have now hit peak inflation and if in fact that's the case and the Fed ultimately stops raising interest rates by the end of the second quarter of this year, well then better days should be ahead for certain areas of the stock market and certain areas of the bond market. But unfortunately Bobbi, not for the US economy.

Bobbi:

All right, fingers crossed for the market at least. And look, the job market's still holding on for the most part. You did bring with you some lessons. We're going to be talking about how to apply the financial lessons learned from 2022 into 2023. You brought along, as I said, five lessons. The first one has to do with the Federal Reserve. We feel like they have a crystal ball, maybe not so much.

Kevin Mahn:

They certainly do not have a crystal ball. And as the saying goes on Wall Street, "Don't fight the Fed." But I also think we should be very careful not to set our entire investment policy based upon the opinion of what the Fed may or may not do next. If you recall Bobbi, at the beginning of 2022, the Fed was suggesting that they might raise interest rates by somewhere between 50 and 75 basis points. Guess what? They raised interest rates by 425 basis points. They told us early in '22 that they thought inflation was going to be transitory. Boy, did that prove not to be the case.

They said in May, after their FOMC meeting that no rate hikes above 50 basis points were even under consideration. Then they raise interest rates four times by 75 basis points. So yes, it's important to factor in what the Federal Reserve may or may not do with their balance sheet and interest rates. But don't assume that they're not going to pivot or change their opinions down the road. You need to build your investment strategy by more than just what the Federal Reserve may or may not do.

Bobbi:

And that brings us to the next lesson, which is basically don't always assume that what happened in the past is going to be indicative of the future. I mean, it's very complicated. We always think, "Oh, diversification is having some stocks and some bonds." But you know what? Sometimes they can both be losers as we've learned.

Kevin Mahn:

Absolutely. As they were in 2022. Bobbi, as we saw the S&P 500 index, one of the largest barometers of the performance of US stocks fall by over 18%. Its worst performance since 2008. We also saw bonds uncharacteristically fall significantly as well, as the aggregate bond index, which takes into consideration investment grade corporate bonds and government securities, fall by nearly 13%. And even investment grade municipal bonds fall by nearly eight point half percent. So sometimes the best made plans around diversification don't necessarily work, but that doesn't mean you abandon diversification.

That doesn't mean you don't try and still employ asset allocation strategies, but you just need to dig a little deeper to find those areas of the market that may provide downside protection and growth potential in different market conditions.

Bobbi:

All right, so the answer must be to time the market. The market's down so much these days. Maybe this is when we put all our chips in at this time, maybe.

Kevin Mahn:

Oh no, no, no.

Bobbi:

Not that I've ever tried to buy at the lowest. Full disclosure to all our listeners, I've done that. I have done that. More in a dollar cost averaging way, but I absolutely am like, "Well, maybe this is the time to put that money to work because it's a little bit cheaper," and then it goes down. So I have tried and failed. Tell me more.

Kevin Mahn:

Bobbi, I've been doing this for nearly 30 years now, as you can see by my silver hair. And what I can tell you is that trying to time the market is often an exercise in futility. Because you got to get it right, not just once, but twice. When to get out of the market and when to get back in the market. And studies show that at least over the last 15 years had you just missed out on the 10 best days in the market, your returns would've been cut in half. That's a significant difference by trying to time when to get in, when to get out, when to get in, when to get out.

What we feel is a better approach is your time in the market building an asset allocation strategy that's consistent with your specific tolerance for risk, your financial goals, and your overall investment timeframe. But trying to go to cash and stay until the coast is clear, unfortunately, we never get that signal that the coast is entirely clear. And by the time you get back into the markets, you've likely missed out on the most significant part of the stock rebounds.

Bobbi:

All right, so that's something that least, I need to work on. We hear a lot about the economy, the economy of one, but it's also an investment plan for one because there's so much noise out there. But really this is personal when it comes to figuring out the best investments for you.

Kevin Mahn:

Yes, absolutely true. And I think it all starts with putting a financial plan in place. Financial plans help you determine ultimately how much cash you need to retire comfortably down the road and also fulfill your other financial goals. Whether that's putting your kids through college, whether that's buying a second home, or whether it's just paying down the mortgage on your existing home. So build a financial plan with a competent professional that will lay out those longer term goals for you.

And then off of that financial plan, implement an investment strategy to help you meet that financial plan. And don't measure your performance by every day, every hour, or even every year by the performance of the stock market, by the performance of the S&P 500. Measure it against that financial plan. That's the only thing that should matter to you or the individual investor, Bobbi is, "How am I doing relative to my financial plan and am I staying on track to meeting my longer term goals?"

Whether you beat the S&P 500 or fell short of the S&P 500, doesn't really matter in that larger context. But if you don't have that financial plan in place, a lot of investors lose sleep because they turn on the TV in the morning, "Oh my god, the markets down x percent. How am I going to be able to retire on time?" Go back to that financial plan or put one in place so that you can measure it accordingly.

Bobbi:

All right, so your fifth and final lesson that we can learn from 2022 into 2023 really has to do with being open-minded about our investments and having different perspectives.

Kevin Mahn:

So true. And again, I've been doing this for 30 years. I obviously have my own set of opinions, but what I regularly do with the investment team here at Hennion & Walsh, is we sit down and we review a wide variety of different outlooks for both the economy and the market. Even those who are historically very pessimistic, others who are notoriously optimistic, but we read them all and we take them all into consideration because if you just keep those blinders on and you only consider your own opinion, your own approach, you may find that you haven't considered enough and you're going to be the first one that you should be blaming for poor investment decisions.

So I think it starts by taking into consideration different inputs, different people's outlooks, and then build your investment portfolio strategies based upon what you collectively believe is going to be the path forward. But don't be afraid to adjust throughout the course of the year because the economy changes, the market changes. Certainly geopolitical factors change. Who would've thought that Russia would've invaded Ukraine and the supply side disruptions would've taken place that we saw in the oil market.

So you need to adjust the factors like that. But even if you're ingesting those investment plan strategies by allocating differently to different areas of the market. For example, Bobbi, let's say during a recession, certain sectors historically perform well, utilities, consumer staples, we all know the names, even healthcare. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you abandon other asset classes as part of your investment plan to meet that financial plan. Work with a competent investment portfolio manager, have that tied consistently with your longer term financial plan. And we think that's a good model for longer term financial success.

Bobbi:

And actually, you picked up on something I was about to remind our listeners of, we're throwing a lot of information at you. That doesn't mean this is something you have to always do yourself. You may, if you have the time and the ability to research it, but sometimes it is good to have a third party on your side. I also want to point out, you have something very interesting. I want you to explain to our listeners, call the SmartTrust series of Unit Investment Trust. Tell us what that is exactly and how that works versus just investing with a money manager. What exactly is that?

Kevin Mahn:

I would be happy to. So here at Hennion & Walsh, we have three legs to the stool, if you will. We have Hennion & Walsh Incorporated, which is that that full service broker dealer, which helps individual investors meet their financial goals. We have Hennion & Walsh Asset Management, which is our registered investment advisor, which manages money on portfolio, or discretionary basis for our clients. And we have SmartTrust's Unit Investment Trust, where we have 26 different strategies that are part of a Unit Investment Trust wrapper. If you're not familiar with UITs, they are another 1940 Act product similar to a mutual fund or an exchange traded fund.

But the primary difference with the UIT is that each series has a defined life between 15 months and 24 months generally. And the underlying portfolio components generally remains static over the life of the trust. So it allows investors to invest in a portfolio strategy for a defined period of time and also have discipline to stay true to those investments. You know exactly what you own and for how long so that you can invest around that UIT strategy.

It's been one of the biggest areas of growth for our firm, and we're so happy to be able to work with many different financial advisors and their clients across the country with our SmartTrust UIT portfolios.

Bobbi:

Yeah, and I think that's an interesting thing, maybe another episode on that. But mutual funds, very often they get branded as something, but the portfolio manager has a lot of freedom, which is sometimes a good thing, to make so many changes that you may buy something that's labeled as such but isn't what you think you're buying. So with this, you know what you're buying, it's a defined period and it's an interesting thing to look at. Where can people get in touch with you?

Kevin Mahn:

They could reach out to us directly. Our number here at Hennion & Walsh is 800 836 8240. You can visit us at hennion&walsh.com or you can even visit us on smarttrustsuit.com to find out more about our SmartTrust UITs.

Bobbi:

Thank you so much, Kevin.

Kevin Mahn:

My pleasure, Bobbi. Have a great year.

Bobbi:

A big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups, Live Your Richest Life, by helping your almost adult kids become everyday money smart. This book was not easy to rate because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. And I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you. So first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it.

There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts. I am really happy with how, Launching Financial Grownups, came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest and it was a lot of work, but I really love doing it and I'm really happy with how it came out.

On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of, Launching Financial Grownups, today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them, and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So I truly appreciate it and I really also appreciate all of your support.

When I listened back to my interview with Kevin, I was actually tempted to take out a notepad and start taking notes. There was just so many great insights there. The good news is you don't have to take notes because, as always, we have not just the show notes, but also a full transcript right on my website, bobbirebel.com just for you. You just go to that website, click on the podcast tab, and you can find this podcast episode. And frankly, our entire catalog of incredible guests sharing insights about how we can all be our best financial grownups.

Thank you for sharing this time with me. If you're enjoying the podcast, I need you to take a moment, you can do it right now, just hit pause. Do a screen grab, put a quick post on social media. Tag me on Instagram. It's @BobbiRebel1. Everywhere else, it's just Bobbi Rebel. Tag me, so I can say thank you and share it. And please, if you are not already, this year give yourself the gift of free information to improve your financial wellness.

Get on my newsletter. It's free. There's a link right in the show notes for that as well. Big thanks to Kevin Mahn, of Hennion & Walsh Asset Management for helping us all be financial grownups.

Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebel.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @BobbiRebel1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebel on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

You can also support our merch shop grownupgear.com by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate
5 Money Tips to get Financially Healthy in 2023 with Liz Frazier Peck, CFP®
5 Money Tips to get Financially Healthy in 2023 with Liz Frazier Peck, CFP®
 

Episode Description: Sometimes the financially "correct" thing will not create a healthy result. Author and CFP® Liz Frazier Peck explains how to make the right choices  that align with both your financial and your life goals.

A little sneak peek into Liz Frazier Peck’s episode!

Highlights:

  • 00:00 - Introduction

  • 03:33 - Powerpoint presentation on broccoli

  • 04:43 - Money tip #1

  • 05:17 - Money tip #2

  • 05:41 - "The rule of thumb is 20%."

  • 06:43 - Money tip #3

  • 08:44 - Money tip #4

  • 10:25 - Money tip #5

  • 12:34 - Money is a tool.


Liz’s Bio:

I am a fee-only financial planner, Forbes contributor and the author of 'Beyond Piggy Banks and Lemonade Stands: How to Teach Young Kids About Finance'. Additionally, I am the Executive Director of Education at Copper Banking. I am a financial literacy advocate, and especially focused on teaching kids the financial foundations at a young age.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Liz!

  • Instagram - lizfrazierpeck

  • Twitter -@lfrazierpeck

  • Website - lizfrazier.com

Follow Bobbi!


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Full Transcript:

Liz Frazier Peck:

You know what? I'm really bad at maintenance. I am not detail-oriented when it comes to my cars. I want easy. I want to be able to take something in and get it fixed if it's broken. I do not want to have to have that on my plate to worry about. So I lease my cars. It's more expensive, it's not an asset, but it is worth it to me.

Bobbi Rebell:

You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, Certified Financial Planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups. Because you now what? Grownup life is really hard, but together we got this.

All right, my friends, we are going to be talking a lot about financial wellness this year. I have some big announcements coming in the next few weeks, but in the meantime I want to get the conversation started. One of my favorite quotes from this week's interview with Certified Financial Planner professional Liz Frazier Peck is when she says, "You have to mix what is financially correct and the financially best thing to do with what is best for you." Remember that.

As you heard at the top of the episode, she's talking about her decision to lease a car even though it was ultimately going to cost her more. It comes down to financial wellness and also our overall well-being.

Liz Frazier Peck is not only a Certified Financial Planner professional, she is the author of Beyond Piggy Banks and Lemonade Stands: How to Teach Young Kids About Finance. Liz is also working on a book series for kids that incorporates financial education in the stories. She'll explain more in our interview. Liz also writes a fantastic column for Forbes that we will link to in the show notes, and is the Executive Director of Education at Copper Banking. Here is Liz Frazier Peck.

Liz Frazier Peck, you are a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Liz Frazier Peck:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Bobbi Rebell:

I hunted you down because I had to have you on this podcast because we share a very common interest, not just in being financial literacy advocates, but also in helping the older generations, not just parents, educate the younger generations, children of all ages. I tend to focus more on the teenage years, but you have a book on the younger years, Beyond Piggy Banks and Lemonade Stands: How to Teach Young Kids About Finance. And by the way, you're also hard at work at a new project. Tell us a little bit about those.

Liz Frazier Peck:

Yeah. These are such passion projects for me. The book that I wrote a couple years ago, Beyond Piggy Banks and Lemonade Stands, this stemmed from, I'm a CFP Financial Planner and I work with these very smart, successful adults and they all kind of say the same thing to me. They're like, "I'm not a money person." Or "I don't understand numbers or finance." And I'm like, "I think that finance is so overcomplicated and it doesn't need to be."

So the more I kind of started digging into that and learning more about that, I just realized that there's good reason why people are intimidated by finance because nobody teaches them. I mean, how would we learn to swim if nobody taught us how to swim? And so the more I started thinking about this, the more I thought, wow, we talk to our kids about everything. We talk to them about nutrition and stranger danger and safety and kindness and how to drive a car. So we teach them about all these important things and we do it in a way where we incorporate it throughout just everyday conversations. We're not doing a PowerPoint presentation on eating broccoli. We're incorporating it into just our daily conversations. And none of us are perfect health and nutrition gurus, but we're still teaching them.

And I thought why in the world are we not teaching our kids about money? Because once they hit 18, every step they take through their adulthood and retirement is directly affected by their ability to manage money. So it's student loans. It's getting your first job and negotiating that. It's having rent and traveling and family, everything.

And so now I'm taking that a step further and writing a kid series. It's a fictional kid series following a family of four siblings. But each book is going to just weave in financial education.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm going to pivot quickly because I want to get to these amazing tips that you brought. You brought five money tips to get financially healthy, which is perfect as we start a new year. The first one sounds simple, but it's really something a lot of us tend to do the eye roll over and we need to stop that. And you have some ways that we can sort of rethink it and change our mindset about it. And it's keeping a budget. I tend to drop the ball on this one. I'm going to be honest with everyone.

Liz Frazier Peck:

Everybody does. My suggestion is go through your past couple months of expenses. Put it in basic buckets. They don't have to be how much I spent at this restaurant every week, but put it in shopping and travel and things like that. Keep it loose, don't put too much pressure on yourself, and just observe yourself. Don't look at it as I can only spend $500 in this category. You can do that at a certain point, but to start, just observe yourself, see where you're spending. And you're naturally going to start tightening up in places if you need to.

Bobbi Rebell:

Which brings us to your second healthy money tip, which has to do with savings, which is also something that can really be a stumbling block for many people. We have the best intentions, but somehow, I don't think anyone's ever said, "Darn, I saved too much this year."

Liz Frazier Peck:

That's funny. Yeah, I was actually just giving a quote for an article and they had asked how much people should be saving out of their paychecks. I said, "The rule of thumb is 20%." And that's what everybody says, which that's great. If you're saving 20%, fantastic. However, what I worry about is people hear the 20% number and they're like, "I can't save 20%." So they don't save anything. Or if they feel like if they can't save 20% and they're saving less, they're not doing a good job of saving, they're not doing it right, and there's less motivation to do it. Just save something.

Really, just save something because not only, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners know compound interest, the more that you can save early on, the more time that money has to earn money. And that's just a huge and very powerful savings tool. But also, you're building a habit of saving. So that's just as important, especially in the teenage and early twenties, thirties, just building that habit of saving something.

Bobbi Rebell:

And also remember that by savings we don't mean it has to sit in a savings account earning .01%. By savings, we mean we can also move it into investing so you do get the maximum return, whatever you define as the right investment for you. And I say that because we're going to our third healthy money tip, which has to do with an emergency fund, which is different from the savings/investing that we've been talking about.

Liz Frazier Peck:

Yeah, that's such a good point. I think that's probably my number one question that I get from my clients is what should I save for first? Or what should I do with my extra money? Should I pay off my mortgage? Should I invest it? Should I do this, should I do that? And I always say the same thing. The first thing that you need to have is an emergency fund.

People say three to six months of expenses is a healthy emergency fund. And that's great. And it's meant to cover expenses. If you lose a job, you want to be able to cover your expenses for three to six months. But that can vary. If you work in communications or sales for companies that are these healthy companies and you're living in a market or you work in kind of a generalized industry, you'll probably be able to get a job a little bit faster. So maybe you only need three months. If you have a very, very specific niche industry or niche position that there's only a couple of and it's going to be a little bit harder to get a new job, you want to have six-plus months of expenses.

But that's the most important thing because people get so stuck and really get into danger when something happens. Something as little as, not little, something like a water heater bursting or a car breaking down and you have to have $1,000 to fix it and you don't and have to go into credit card debt. And that just starts a really bad snowball.

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. But it's hard. So it's okay, if you don't have six months, get what you can at the very least, even if it starts with $1,000, a few hundred dollars, whatever it is. Going back to the pattern of savings, get into a habit of building up that emergency fund, and know that it's also okay to use it because I think sometimes people are so afraid to use it that it just sits there and they do do the credit card debt rather than dipping into the emergency fund, which is what it's there for.

All right, our fourth healthy money tip for the new year is perfect for the new year because it has to do with goals.

Liz Frazier Peck:

Yeah. That's the first thing I do with my clients when I meet with them is I say, after I get to know them, "Let's talk about your goals." And they're like, "Well, I want to retire in 20 years," and things like that. And I'm like, "Okay. So one, in retirement, you're not going to just turn 67 and then want to garden for the rest of your life. So let's think about what do you want to do in retirement?"

And so it's really important for any age, whether you're in your teens, twenties or sixties, think about what do you want to do in the next couple years that's going to require money. It might be traveling. It might be getting a new house. It could be anything, big or small. And then think about long-term. Long-term is five-plus years.

And so there's a couple reasons it's important to think about that. One, you can't reach your goals unless you determine what they are. You can't create a plan unless you know what those are. And it helps keep you motivated to see yourself getting closer and closer to your goals. That's one reason why you want to create goals.

But the second one is, going back to investing, when you invest money, you want to make sure that anything that you invest you don't need for the next couple years, because the market cycle's up and down. Typically, it's about a five-year cycle for you to go through the bear and the bull and recessions and expansions. So if you have something that you want to do in a couple years, so you want to buy a house and you have $20,000 for a down payment, you are going to want to keep that in cash. You do not want to invest anything you're going to want to take out for a couple years.

Bobbi Rebell:

On that note, it is important to have the right mindset. And that sort of brings us to the fifth and final of our healthy money tips. Talk to us about the framework that people should use when they think about their life and their money.

Liz Frazier Peck:

Yeah. What I always say, and this was a big part of my book, how to kind of create financially healthy kids, is we hear so much in the media about money. And some people it's everything. Some people it's a source of all evil. And really money is neutral. It's a tool. It's a tool to help you reach your goals.

And so my last piece of advice is when you're planning out your goals and your life, money and what's financially smart and right should definitely play a part of it, but also you want to think about what's important to you and what your values are and what your goals are. So an example I always use with my clients when they're like, "Well, I want to do this, but I just don't think it's the best thing for my money." And I'm like, "Okay, well, let's talk this through."

I have a car that I lease. Financially, that is not the smartest thing to do. Financially, and I was always taught growing up, my mom was a financial planner, never lease, always own. So I thought it was the worst thing you could do with your money. And then as an adult, I realized, you know what? I'm really bad at maintenance. I am not detail-oriented when it comes to my cars. I want easy. I want to be able to take something in and get it fixed if it's broken. I do not want to have to have that on my plate to worry about. So I lease my cars. It's more expensive, it's not an asset, but it is worth it to me.

So that's kind of my last piece of advice is you have to mix what is financially correct and the financially best thing to do with what's best for you.

Bobbi Rebell:

Sometimes it's better to spend money, more money and maybe don't make the best financial decision, but it's like you said, it's what works for you. And that's important. I know people get into these camps of buy versus rent when it comes to housing, and it's like, "But what's right for you?" And maybe you don't know where you want to live and it makes sense to rent temporarily even if it's much more expensive. There's so many different examples of that, even with how you structure your work life. Right?

Liz Frazier Peck:

Exactly. And that kind of goes also to mental and emotional health. Money is, like I said, it's a tool. It's a tool to help you live the life that you want to live. So you have to have very clear ideas of what you need and what you want in that life. So if money can help you do things that keep you emotionally and mentally healthy and secure, then that's a great use of your money.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you write, by the way, you write a fantastic column for Forbes. One of the recent columns was about financial wellness. What's your advice for people who feel financially anxious as we enter 2023?

Liz Frazier Peck:

I think that probably most people fall into that camp, especially right now with inflation and possible recessions and the holidays hangover and everything like that.

I think the best thing you can do for yourself is not avoid it, take a look. And that's why number one is a budget. That's why I always go back to that. Take a look at what you have and just give yourself one day and get organized. And I promise you that you will feel better about your finances. Look at how much you have saved, how much you owe, what you're bringing in, what's your spending, what you need this year, and start a plan. But you are only going to feel more anxious the more you avoid it. And honestly, the more that you avoid it, the worse it's going to get if you've got reason for financial anxiety.

Bobbi Rebell:

And it's hard to get motivated, but if you can do it yourself, do it yourself. If you can get a buddy or someone, another financial stakeholder, someone in your family that loves you to help you do that. And then, also, you know what, we're both certified financial planners, I'm going to throw it out there, get help. Get a professional to help you just do a kind of a self-audit of where you are with your spending, your investing, and your general progress towards the short and long-term goals, because sometimes having an outside perspective and accountability from someone who sees things, sees the numbers frankly, rather than the emotions, can be really helpful in the new year.

And on that note, I want to mention, in addition to being a children's book author and a Forbes columnist, you also have a real job with a very cool app that I think a lot of people will be interested. So tell us about Copper Banking.

Liz Frazier Peck:

Copper Banking is just such exciting work that I'm doing. So I am on the board of Copper Banking as the Director of Financial Education. And Copper Banking is a banking app meant for teens. It's a platform that provides education and tools and helps them save and they get a debit card. But just last week, they launched Copper Investing. And this is so exciting for me and so huge for I think financial literacy in general for the next generation because it allows them to in a safe and kind of structured way invest their money as teenagers.

And you and I know, and I think, again, most listeners know if you could start investing as a teenager, by the time you're 50, I mean the amount of time that you can grow your money. One, you're actually have the ability to build some serious wealth.

But two, the fact that teenagers, I mean it's just such a different world than when we grew up. I mean, the fact that teenagers can learn about investing firsthand in a safe and secure environment on Copper, they're going to be so much more comfortable with money and investing when they get older. And once they get real money, when they're earning real money through a real job as an adult, they're going to have this level of experience and comfort and have built this habit of investing. And that is, I mean, there's nobody who's over the age of 40, I'm aging myself, but there's nobody over the age of 40 who says, "I'm so glad I didn't start investing when I was a teenager." "I'm so glad I didn't buy Microsoft when I was 20."

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah. And to your point about being a safe environment, I mean the default is they're going to be on Discord or Reddit and they're going to hear about some apps like Robinhood that, and I'm not saying Robinhood is all bad, but I am saying that there have been some problems there with the way that it's structured. You want to make sure that their investing experience is something that is safe and pointed towards teens, I guess. I'm kind of being careful with my words because it's not just about one app. But it is important that they be in a secure environment initially when they don't necessarily have the tools to understand when something feels like a game that they are playing with real money.

Liz Frazier Peck:

Yeah. And I'll tell you what drew me to Copper is that they are so focused on education. They're not just opening up an app for teens to start investing on because that's sexy and fun and exciting. They want teens to do it the right way. So every step of the way it's like, have you learned this? Have you learned this? You need to know diversification. You need to keep your money in for a long time. It's not just open to the world of investing. At some point it will be, but to start, teens are put in portfolios based on their risk. So they're doing it in the right way for teens, which is just really amazing.

Bobbi Rebell:

And very important. And it also can serve as a conversation starter for parents. All right, Liz, where can people be in touch with you and learn more about all the things that you do?

Liz Frazier Peck:

Well, they can visit my website lizfrazier.com, pretty easy. They also can find me on Forbes Media under Liz Frazier Peck. I write on there regularly. And on the Copper Banking app, I'm also frequently on there giving advice and tools and videos to help teens save and invest.

Bobbi Rebell:

Perfect. Thank you so much.

Liz Frazier Peck:

Thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.

Bobbi Rebell:

So my friends, what are you doing this year to improve your financial wellness? DM me on Instagram @bobbirebell1, that's bobbirebell1. Be on the look out, by the way, I need your help. There are a lot of imposter accounts out there. So if you see one that is not that, please report it to Instagram. Regardless, let me know on that correct Instagram account your tips for a financially healthy 2023.

I also want to thank so many of you who have picked up a copy of my book, Launching Financial Grownups. It means the world to me, and especially some of you said that you have given it as a gift to someone that you care about. Bonus points if you have written a review on Amazon. Many of you know that Amazon does have an algorithm. They're going to prioritize books with more reviews or even activity on the reviews, like when you say click the like that this review was helpful to you, that helps too. Any activity, it really helps me to spread the message of helping the next generation be financial grownups. So please write those reviews and thank you if you did.

I have some big announcements coming in the next few weeks, so if you are not already on my free newsletter, please jump on that link in the show notes, where you can find links, by the way, to everything relevant in this episode. You can see the show notes right on your podcast player usually. If not, go to my website, just by name, bobbirebell.com and click on the podcast tab. Also, I have a free full transcript of every episode there for you. Big thanks to author and CFP Liz Frazier Peck for helping us all be financial grownups.

Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup.

The podcast and tons of complementary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free. But I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe.

You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this.

Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time. And thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate
3 Bold Money Tips with Author Shanna Hocking
3 Bold Money Tips with Author Shanna Hocking
 

Episode Description:

The author of One Bold Move a Day, leadership consultant Shanna Hocking shares specific actions we can all take to advance our careers, our financial goals and have a great 2023.

A little sneak peek into Shanna Hocking’s episode.

Timestamps & Main Points:

  • 00:00 - Introduction

  • 05:39 - Shanna’s secret to correcting someone in an awkward situation

  • 06:54 - Bold move #1 Money tips

  • 09:41 - Bold move #2 Negotiation strategies

  • 12:21 - Bold move #3 Philanthropy mindset

  • 15:16 - Shanna’s never-fail strategy for reminding yourself of your value.


Shanna’s Bio:

Shanna A. Hocking is a leadership consultant, philanthropic advisor, author, and speaker with 20 years of experience raising hundreds of millions of dollars and leading large teams at organizations such as the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, University of Alabama, and Duke University. Her clients include universities, national nonprofit organizations, global businesses, and family foundations. Shanna is the author of One Bold Move a Day: Meaningful Actions Women Can Take to Fulfill Their Leadership and Career Potential (McGraw Hill, November 2022), which was recognized as a November nominee of The Next Big Idea Club. Shanna's articles have been published on Harvard Business Review, Fortune, Fast Company, The Muse, and Motherly, and her expertise has been featured in Bloomberg News, PIX11 News, Entrepreneur, Chicago Tribune, Today.com, Insider, and The Business Journals, among others.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Shanna!

Follow Bobbi!


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Full Transcript:


Bobbi:

Hey, grownup friends. There is something I don't talk about publicly that I have decided to start sharing. Even though it can be a bit embarrassing, I get digital overload, and it stresses me out, for good reason, because when you have so much junk on your computer because you're not as organized as you should be, because you get caught up in all the things that you have to do. If you don't deal with it, all that stuff on your computer starts to really slow things down and can become a total drag on your productivity. For me, there is nothing worse than finally motivating to get stuff done, only to be derailed by a sluggish computer that is just not cooperating. A little while ago, I decided I was going to stop just kind of hoping that things would get better, and I was going to deal with it.

I downloaded something called CleanMyMac. It's from a company called MacPaw. I was skeptical, but I took a deep breath and I tried it. Long story short, it totally worked. I loved how I could see it work through my files with clear and easy to understand graphics. I could see what was messing things up and CleanMyMac would ask me for my okay before deleting files so that something I did need to keep didn't go bye-bye. That was one of my biggest fears. I recently reached out to the company, and they are offering 10% off to my Financial Grownup listeners who want to also get CleanMyMac. To get that 10% off CleanMyMac, you do need to go to my link. It is BobbiRebell.com/CleanMyMac, B-O-B-B-I R-E-B-E-L-L.com/CleanMyMac, and that is all one word. I promise you, you will be so happy. I want you guys to be in touch with me. Let me know how it goes. You deserve to lower the stress of data overload. Trust me, so worth it.

Shanna:

It has been the most treasured thing that I have brought through every office move, that I have made every career move. I have it sitting right behind me on my bookshelf. I now have an email folder as well as a paper folder because the times have changed so much, and it is really valuable to look back at on your hard days, to remember what you have already accomplished, and the value you bring to the world.

Bobbi:

You are listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together, we got this.

Very excited for 2023, my friends. We are moving past what's been a few rocky years for many of us. Now is the time when I feel like we can really, and this has inspired the title of this episode, this is a time when we can make some bold moves. So leadership consultant and philanthropic advisor, Shanna Hocking is our guest. She is the host of the One Bold Move a Day podcast and now the author of a new book by that same name, One Bold Move a Day: Meaningful Actions Women can Take to Fulfill Their Leadership and Career Potential. Besides all her accomplishments, what I really love most about Shanna is that she walks the walk when it comes to bold moves. Shanna is pretty candid about things in her life that have just kind of slipped through the cracks and she kind of muddled through about the experiences that she has learned from.

And as an author, I will tell you her book is The Real Deal. I was super impressed when this came. It is endorsed not only by Adam Grant, who wrote Think Again and hosts the TED Podcast Work Life, but also by many of my personal friends that I really admire. They have been on this podcast. They include top workplace strategists like Erica Keswin, Whitney Johnson, and Dorie Clark. We will leave links to all of their episodes in the show notes, of course, and after the interview, guys, I'm going to share the one bold move that Shanna used to connect to me, because we did not have those friends in common, or at least neither of us knew at the time that we had those friends in common, and she did the one bold move a day, and I didn't even spot it, but it was so awesome. Listen to the interview. I'll be back. Here is Shanna Hocking.

Shanna Hocking, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.

Shanna:

Thanks, Bobbi. I'm so glad to be here.

Bobbi:

I'm glad to finally get you here, especially for our first episode of 2023, because you are the author of my new favorite book, One Bold Move a Day, perfect for New Year's. So thank you for being here.

Shanna:

I am excited to have this conversation together.

Bobbi:

And this is kind of putting a bow on the fact that you have a podcast by the same name that has over 250 episodes. Congratulations on that. I want everyone to check it out. It has, well, 250 episodes first of all, but it's like a binge happy podcast because they're all six minutes; so great.

Shanna:

It was a labor of love, and I'm delighted that people enjoy it, and six minutes is great. Like you said, you can listen to one or listen to five.

Bobbi:

Yeah, and some of the topics are so awesome, especially if you're working remotely. First of all, I love the episode about virtual icebreakers. You also have a number of episodes about connecting with people when they're not there, and just also, of course, the bold moves that you can do every day. So on that note, let's just start. Explain the concept of One Bold Move a Day, because that's sort of your overarching theme to inspire people in your leadership business.

Shanna:

So when people hear bold moves, they often think the all caps text to your best friend or something that would go on a billboard, and the way that I define bold moves is it's a meaningful action that helps you learn, move forward, and grow, which helps you understand how it's possible to make a bold move every day, and sometimes, yes, they're moving across the country, or taking a new job, or asking for a promotion, and other times, it's meeting someone for the first time, or saying hello to someone in a coffee shop, or correcting when someone mispronounces your name.

Bobbi:

Ooh, that's a big one. How do you do that?

Shanna:

Well, I think it's coming from the idea that you believe that you belong wherever you are, whether it's at the table, in the room, and you feel that there is something that you can learn from this experience. So I spent a long time of my life not telling people how to correctly pronounce my name, and it wasn't until the pandemic when everything was virtual and on Zoom, and I started adding, "Shanna, rhymes with Donna," on my Zoom, because I wanted to give people the grace. People want to say your name right, but it still feels really uncomfortable to correct people, and so instead of thinking, "Oh, my gosh, I'm telling them they did it wrong," I think, "I'm valuing myself," and that's my bold move today.

Bobbi:

Excellent. You brought with you three bold grownup money tips for the new year that you're going to share with us. The first one is something that's really tricky that I know I have shied away from.

Shanna:

So talking about your salary with others.

Bobbi:

Mm-hmm.

Shanna:

We were raised, particularly as women in our generation, to not talk about money. It was considered a bad thing, which is why I love that you are openly talking about money and helping people feel more comfortable about it, because money is power, and talking about your salary helps you to understand what your market value is, and this is something that if you negotiate, as I'm sure you've said many times, if you negotiate at the beginning of your career, you're setting yourself up for future success. So though I didn't do this early in my career, because, of course, nice girls don't talk about money, over time, I have really stretched to be able to have conversations about money, and it started when someone who was a mentor to me shared with me her exact salary, which was mind-blowing. This woman, who's been in her career for 30 years, she told me what she was making, and it helped me feel confident to ask for the number I felt like I deserved, and I've tried to pay that forward to others.

Bobbi:

How does that even come up? Can you recall that conversation? Are you just chatting away, having lunch, and like, "Oh, by the way, I make this amount." I mean, how does that happen? Because I don't feel like that comes up in my general conversation with my friends, or my business colleagues, and contacts, et cetera.

Shanna:

You're right; this is not something that is just like a lunchtime conversation, although I do hear that this is much more common for millennials and Gen Z. The stigma around money is not as present for them, and I wonder about this for your stepdaughter. Is this something that they're talking about at lunchtime, though you and I might not have before we had this conversation? So what I loved so much was that I said to her, "Do you have a sense of the range for this kind of position on the market?" And she responded by saying, "Well, I'm just going to tell you what my exact salary is."

It really shocked me, and I was even nervous to say, "Do you know what the range is?" And so I think what we have to do is kind of come up with our conversation starters in order to make these bold move money moves to be able to say, "You know what? I'm going up for a new position, and I really want to make sure that I'm being appropriately paid. Would you be willing to share with me either your salary or the range that you're aware of in the market?" And let them say no or yes; much more likely they're going to be able to give you some kind of answer that will be helpful.

Bobbi:

Yeah, and I think the key is the context, and really having a purpose, that it's not like you're just being nosy or want to pry into their business; there's a real reason, and there's a sense that you will also return the favor, and give them mutual information when it's appropriate in that way, and that brings us to your second money tip for grownups coming into the new year, which has to do with negotiation.

Shanna:

So negotiation is something that just like talking about money with your friends, talking about money with your boss and with your organization doesn't necessarily feel like a comfortable conversation to have either. I remember thinking about how I was going to prepare for a promotion, and having conversations and practicing this with my best friend for months. She was also going up for promotion at the same time, and so we chose to be accountability partners and supporting each other. "How will you handle this part? What will you say here? How do you even know what the appropriate salary is to ask for?"

I think there's a lot of information available on the internet that can give you a sense of what the market has to offer, and then having those conversations, those brave, bold move conversations with people that you respect, and then being willing to say, "This is, based on my research, this is the salary that I think is appropriate for this position," and what's important is that I didn't say this is the salary that's appropriate for me, because it's almost like you're not even a part of this, even though of course it's about you. This is about getting paid appropriately for the role, and the value that you bring to the company, and keeping focused on that like you are providing a value takes out some of the personal emotions that we all feel when we're asking for something for ourselves.

Bobbi:

And that's interesting, because it does give you wiggle room, because there may be a time when I know I took a pay cut once making a career transition, and it was really hard, but I had to sort of understand that's what the market paid for that, because I was pivoting within my career, and looking back, it does make a lot of sense, because it's not always personal. It is what the market costs, but also, there's the balance of what that company can pay, and sometimes, you have to make a decision, because the company maybe can't afford to pay the "market rate." Maybe their business isn't so strong, and so you have to discuss with them whether it makes sense to be paying you under market, but maybe you say it out loud, "I will take this job being paid under market, but maybe there are other ways you can make it up to me," maybe with incentive plans, and things like that, to kind of put it out there, right?

Shanna:

Absolutely. There's so much more that goes into a job choice than just the salary alone. So do you feel like you can thrive there? Are you going to be able to learn? Will your manager support and value you? Will you enjoy working with your colleagues? How does this fit into who you want to become? Money, of course, is a part of that. It's how we pay our bills, it's how we enjoy our life, but it's not the only part, and I think it's great that you're mentioning the other things beyond the actual take-home pay that can contribute to your financial wellbeing and the things that you get from that company in exchange for the value that you provide.

Bobbi:

All right, money tip number three has to do with giving back.

Shanna:

Well, this is something that's really special and important to me. I started my career in fundraising. I found my dream career at age 18, and to work in fundraising when you're 18 is slightly unusual. I loved it. It was everything that I wanted to do. Philanthropy is about helping to make things possible, and aligning it with what is important to other people, and so this idea that we all have a responsibility to give back is so important, and I really believe when you give from the heart is where you find joy. I always tell donors that I work with or clients that I work with the point here is going to be just stretch until it feels like this is more than I might have expected, and that's where the joy really happens. It's so intentional, and it's so action-oriented, and it doesn't matter if you're giving away $100 million or a dollar, whatever is appropriate to you, this is an opportunity for you to make a difference in your community and have the legacy that you want to have, too.

Bobbi:

And I like that you're stressing it's what's appropriate for you, because sometimes we do have friends that may contribute at different levels, higher or lower, and it's important to be supportive of the ones that may share with you that they're contributing at a lower level, and also not to feel pressure from the ones at a higher level. They often really aren't concerned. Nobody's judging you, except they're supporting the fact that you are participating, because we do get asked by so many friends during the year that are doing different fundraising things.

You want to show support; it doesn't have to be a lot of money, and one thing that I've done is I've put aside sort of a fund for the year that I'm going to spend X dollars supporting my friends' charitable causes, where you might give $25, $50, maybe $100 if they're running a race, or something like that. So you're contributing, and then you can say, "This is what I have from my budget for these things," and just make it personal, but maybe a little bit also like, "But this is what I have to do for my financial wellness."

Shanna:

I love it, and what I think is so great, Bobbi, is that you have set this aside. It's very intentional, it's very purposeful. When I'm working with philanthropic advisory clients, what I say to them is, "What is it that you want to accomplish with your money? What is important to you? Let's start there," and then you can set aside what other people are going to ask you for, the friends that you want to support, and if you're very clear from the beginning about what causes and organizations you want to support, then it becomes easier at the times when other people are asking you for things to say, "I've already dedicated my budget to that particular cause for this year."

Bobbi:

Love that. All right, before I let you go, I want to talk to you a little bit more about this book, One Bold Move a Day. Like I said, capping off your 250 podcast episodes, podcast by the same name. What's your favorite story from the book?

Shanna:

Oh, well, I'm often asked what my favorite bold move is from the book, and it's like choosing amongst your children. I would think-

Bobbi:

Oh, gosh.

Shanna:

So the one that really resonates with what I've learned throughout my career that I think is a way to pay it forward and start making your own bold moves is the Atta Girl folder. When I was an intern in college, I was 19 for a job I cold-called to get, and my mentor came over to me with a plain manila folder, and she said to me, "This is your Atta Girl folder." I was 19 years old. I didn't even know what that meant, and what she told me was that I was going to put in it the notes and accolades that I received throughout my career, and to look back on it on the hard days, and she said, "There will be hard days."

So I dutifully took the folder, and was like, "Well, I trust my mentor; she's amazing, and my boss, and I will certainly use this," and Bobbi, it has been the most treasured thing that I have brought through every office move, that I have made every career move. I have it sitting right behind me on my bookshelf. I now have an email folder as well as a paper folder, because the times have changed so much, and it is really valuable to look back at on your hard days, to remember what you have already accomplished, and the value you bring to the world, and so my encouragement is for everyone to start their bold move folder, their Atta Girl folder, whatever they want to call it, and start remembering and celebrating their progress.

Bobbi:

Such great advice going into a new year, where so many people are hoping to make job changes. There's some statistics out there. I think 50% of people are thinking they want to change their job in 2023. So it's important to bring along those good accolades and remember, because I think looking for a job can sometimes feel like you're being rejected, when really, there's a bunch of stories. We don't have time to go into it, but there's some very poignant stories, even very personal to you, about rejection earlier in your career, and learning that sometimes the other person maybe was more qualified; sometimes it had nothing to do with you. Maybe sometimes they never even saw your resume. Whatever it is, don't get down, stay on the path, and go for your goals in 2023. Shanna Hocking, hopefully I said your name correctly, because I know you'll correct me if I don't, tell us more about where people can catch up with you, buy your book, listen... Well, your podcast is everywhere, and just be in touch, because I know that you do amazing stuff, especially for women looking to advance their careers.

Shanna:

Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed our conversation. I would love to continue the conversation with others. You can find me at ShannaAHocking.com, and my book, One Bold Move a Day, is available anywhere you like to buy books, and there's more information about it on my website as well.

Bobbi:

Thank you so much.

Shanna:

Thank you.

Bobbi:

A big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adults Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to write, because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids, and what was not working, and I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you. So first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends, and also financial therapists, and parenting experts.

I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out, even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest, and it was a lot of work, but I really loved doing it, and I'm really happy with how it came out. On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important, because the algorithm picks up on them, and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So I truly appreciate it, and I really also appreciate all of your support.

So I did not even realize it until after our interview, the one you just listened to, until after our interview was over, but my connection to Shanna was actually one of her old moves, and I had no idea. Here's what happened: when authors get book deals, they're announced in Publisher's Marketplace. The day mine was published, I got a DM on Instagram from Shanna, congratulating me, and noting that her book deal was right next to mine in Publisher's Marketplace. It was so nice. It really felt good to be sort of recognized and celebrated by another author, and of course I was happy for her as well.

So then, fast forward a few months later, I get an email that said, and this is what she literally wrote, and we can learn from this, "We exchanged a note on IG a few months ago when our new books were in Publisher's Marketplace on the same day, and I noticed your announcement next to mine. So exciting. I'd welcome the chance to connect further and learn more about your work. What's the best way to schedule 30 minutes with you?" And we did. Fast forward more than a year, and we've been in contact exchanging ideas, and I now consider her a friend, and of course, I brought her to all of you, because I think she's wonderful, and she was a guest on this podcast, and we'll probably do more together in the next year.

So I ask you, what will be your bold moves beginning in 2023? DM me on Instagram at BobbiRebell1. Trust me, it works, right? Happy New Year to everyone, and a big thanks to Shanna Hocking, pronouncing her name correctly, right, everyone? To Shanna Hocking for helping us make bold moves and be financial grownups.

Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media, LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts, by going to my website, BobbiRebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return.

Here's how you can do that: first, connect with me on social media at BobbiRebell1 on Instagram, and BobbiRebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me, and you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, GrownupGear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends, and treating yourself as well, and most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 

 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate
5 Grownup Money Tips for 2023 and a personal update
5 Grownup Money Tips for 2023 and a personal update
 

Episode Description: Bobbi shares ideas and strategies to set yourself up for success in the new year.

 
 

Links to resources mentioned in the episode!

Follow Bobbi!


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Full Transcript:


It is time to get ready for what I hope will be a fantastic year for all of us. 2022 for me was.. ok.  The highlight of course was the launch of my book Launching Financial Grownups: Live your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. But also It was to a large degree a year of rebuilding and repositioning and I have some things that I've been working on behind the scenes this year that will finally be ready to share - I'm going to give you a little more info soon but first I do want to share a few money tips to set all us of up for success in 2023.- and I'm going to skip the ones that grownups already know- like have an emergency fund and pay down debt. You guys are good to go on those.

Here we go.

Tip #1: Do a review and a then a preview. Sometimes when things don't go our way we want to just look forward. But the truth is we can learn a lot from what we did right and wrong in the past. For the review - there are lots of ways to look back and everyone should do what feels right for them. If you are one of those people who keeps a diary or journals- that can help of course. Same thing if you had your list of financial new years resolutions. But for those of us that are just trying to get through the day- one very basic thing is to look at your spending patters by just pulling up your credit card bills. What subscriptions are you paying for that you didn't use? What about that storage unit? What money was well spent? How were your investing returns? How does your savings account comparing your year end statement from 2021 to 2022? Numbers tell stories. Then look forward and preview what you see as your spending, saving and investing patterns for the year ahead.

Tip #2 Do your to do list. - and by that I mean really do a home audit of all the things you have intended to do and did not.  And again- you do you. So focus on what matters. Here are some examples: Are there holiday presents you can return for cash or gift cards or donate? Are there projects where you have something sitting around for so long. And it can be seemingly trivial stuff- like did you send in for that rebate? Did you buy a lottery ticket and not check it- there are more than the grand prizes. And if you won $4 like I did- I give you permission to treat yourself to something although sadly thanks to inflation it won't even buy you a latte.  But again, are there checks you have not cashed, bills you have avoided, subscriptions you have not cancelled. Do the things.

Tip #3 Invest in being ready for opportunity. When was the last time you did a wardrobe edit. If you got that big call you have dreamed of- maybe a last minute job interview- or a big IRL meeting with a potential client? Or even a last minute social outing? Do you have something to wear? And on that same note- is your LinkedIn updated? Do you have a resume ready. Be set up for success in advance so you aren't scrambling

Tips #4 Rightsize your expectations. By keeping your expectations for the new year realistic and achievable- you will be more motivated and more likely to succeed. And more likely to raise the bar and feel excited about it. If you set your sights too high and fall short, you may give up and find yourself putting your financial dreams on hold.

Tip #5 Consider your personal financial wellness. How is your mindset these days? Are you stressing out about money? Does it keep you up at night? If so, write down specifically what you fear, and then make a specific plan- even if it can't totally solve the problem, to at least make progress towards relieving that stress.

And that brings us to my big new venture for 2023. I can't give you the full details but I am working on an exciting project in the financial wellness space. If you want to learn more- be in touch. You can email us at hello@financialgrownup.com or dm me on instagram at bobbirebell1. And there will also be a big announcement in my newsletter- there's a link in the shownotes to sign up or just go to my website bobbirebell.com

So excited to share more in the New Year! Enjoy the season and here's to being financial grownups together.

 
Bobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate
4 Investing Half-Truths + advice for 2023 with Kirk Chishol
4 Investing Half-Truths + advice for 2023 with Kirk Chishol
 

Episode Description: Kirk Chisholm of Innovative Advisory Group and the host of the Money Tree podcast shares some controversial viewpoints that may have grownups questioning the market assumptions we take for granted.

Timestamps & Main Points:

  • 00:00- Introduction

  • 06:56 - Half Truth #1

  • 07:30 - Cash is trash

  • 09:09 - Half Truth #2

  • 11:26 - Half Truth #3

  • 11:52 - Where do people invest?

  • 13:45 - Diversification is volatility management.

  • 15:45 - Half Truth #4


Kirk’s Bio:

Kirk Chisholm is a wealth manager and principal at Innovative Advisory Group, Host of the Money Tree Investing Podcast and all around interesting guy. He is an outside the box thinker who provides a different perspective on many commonly held beliefs in personal finance. He has a rare expertise with alternative investments held in self-directed IRAs which has helped many investors invest in their passion. Kirk was recently recognized as one of the top 100 most influential financial advisors in the US by Investopedia.

 
 

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Full Transcript:


Bobbi Rebell:

Hey grownup friends. There is something I don't talk about publicly that I have decided to start sharing, even though it can be a bit embarrassing, I get digital overload and it stresses me out for good reason. Because when you have so much junk on your computer, because you're not as organized as you should be, because you get caught up in all the things that you have to do. If you don't deal with it, all that stuff on your computer starts to really slow things down and can become a total drag on your productivity. For me, there is nothing worse than finally motivating to get stuff done, only to be derailed by a sluggish computer that is just not cooperating. A little while ago I decided I was going to stop just kind of hoping that things would get better and I was going to deal with it.

I downloaded something called CleanMyMac. It's from a company called MacPaw. I was skeptical but I took a deep breath and I tried it. Long story short, it totally worked. I loved how I could see it work through my files with clear and easy to understand graphics. I could see what was messing things up, and CleanMyMac would ask me for my okay before deleting files, so that something I did need to keep didn't go bye-bye. That was one of my biggest fears. I recently reached out to the company and they are offering 10% off to my financial grownup listeners who want to also get CleanMyMac. To get that 10% off CleanMyMac, you do need to go to my link. It is bobbirebell.com/cleanmymac, B-O-B-B-I-R-E-B-E-L-L dot C-O-M/cleanmymac. And that is all one word. I promise you, you'll be so happy. I want you guys to be in touch with me. Let me know how it goes. You deserve to lower the stress of data overload. Trust me. So worth it.

Kirk Chisholm:

Diversification's not really protecting you. Diversification is volatility management. Risk management doesn't work because the markets have changed in the last 20 years where now big selloffs affect everything including bonds. So that's why you have to be aware. You can't just diversify and say, "I'll be okay." Because this year, stocks, bonds, everything was down similarly. So you really weren't protected by diversifying.

Bobbi Rebell:

Your listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups. Because you know what? Grownup life is really hard, but together we got this.

This interview was like a punch to the gut. I'm still processing it, my friends. As you heard in the clip at the top of the episode, my guest has some very strong opinions about how we see the market, how we approach investing and maybe now with the market having such a rough year, now is the time to take a step back and really reexamine so many of the market truth that we just take for granted, and I'm in there. I take a lot of things for granted, things like buy and hold and don't miss the best 10 days of the market, things like that. Things we talk about and we just assume are great investing advice. But maybe not. Kirk Chisholm runs Innovative Advisory Group. You may also know him as the host of the Money Tree podcast. Kirk has been in the investment advisory business for decades, and he's developed perspectives that you may or may not agree with. But I can assure you, you want to hear. I'm still processing, as I said, a lot of what he said, but Kirk really made me think about things that I took for granted and at least question why do I take them for granted. I have a big takeaway I'm going to save it for after the interview here is Kirk Chisholm.

Kirk Chisholm, you are a financial grownup. I am so happy to finally, finally, finally have you on the podcast. So welcome.

Kirk Chisholm:

Thank you for having me on, Bobbi.

Bobbi Rebell:

For disclosure, the reason I'm laughing so much is this is actually our fourth attempt. Most of our failures were because I have had various illnesses highlighted by a wonderful experience with COVID. We've also had some technical issues. So we are finally here and I'm so excited to get it done and have you on the podcast and I'm going to be on your wonderful podcast, the Money Tree at some point in 2023, you also have a firm called Innovative Advisory Group as well is a great investment option for many people. Tell us a little bit about that and your philosophy and then we're going to get into investing half-truths.

Kirk Chisholm:

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks Bobbi. Thanks for having me on the show. I love your show by the way, so your listeners are very lucky to have you.

Bobbi Rebell:

Thank you.

Kirk Chisholm:

Yes. So basically I've been in the industry for about 23 years and I started in the broker dealer side at Paine Webber, back when it was Paine Webber, then UBS, and Smith Barney, and then decided to go out my own because I just didn't see the value of the big firms. There was a time where they did have them, but then at everyone was a little bit more the same. So it just didn't have the same value. So what we did is 2008, we've started Innovative Advisor Group with the idea that you could have outside the box strategies. Because most of the industry is very regimented and it's very kind of inside the box. You have to do these things in a certain way and that's not how investing works. Talk to any real estate investor, they put all their money in real estate, they don't touch the stock market. Why should they? Right? If they know invest in what they know as Peter Ellens used to say.

So we focused on investing outside the market, in alternatives inside of retirement accounts. And of course we do traditional strategies, but I think the alternative stuff is really fascinating because some of the best investments we've seen have been on the alternative side.

Bobbi Rebell:

And you do specialize in alternative investments I should say. You mentioned 2008, here we are in closing up 2022 as we record this both very, let's call them interesting years for investing. Certainly challenging in a time when it makes sense to sort of reexamine the things that we sometimes take for granted when it comes to investing. And we're going to get through some of them, which is for example, always buy and hold is the way to go or that printing money always causes inflation. These are sort of what you call investing half-truths, and I'm excited to hear your perspective on them because I like many people do take these things as sort of the way to go and the standard advice that may not always hold up as our world is evolving. So we're heading into 2023, we're going to talk about some of the investing half-truths as you like to call them. The first one is cash is dangerous. Tell us about that.

Kirk Chisholm:

There's a steam in the financial, I don't know, if just the zeitgeist, there's the whole industry talks about how when you have high inflation cash is dangerous. Why? Well, if you have high inflation, your cash should be worth a lot less next year. And then they tried out this chart, which is 100-year chart which says, "Hey, in early 1900s, cash is worth a dollar and now it's worth 3 cents in the dollar." Wow, that's really scary. Well, I don't know anybody who kept cash for 100 years. That to me seems ridiculous, right? So you have people like Ray Dalio who says cash is trash, and over long-terms, he's right. But short-terms, it's different. If you look at up to the third quarter of this year, 2022, the S&P 500 was down 25%. The Nasdaq, 33. 30-Year US Treasuries are down 30%. Safe bonds, right? Down 30%.

Real estate, 30%. Gold, 8.4. How much was your cash down? Zero. If anything it made a little money but you weren't getting much in interest. Call it zero, okay. Being generous. So we had 8.2% inflation at some point. Now at 7.7. If you look at the real returns, which is inflation adjusted, so instead of the S&P 500 being down 25%, it's down 32%. The Nasdaq instead of 33, it's down 41, Treasury is down 38, gold down 16, cash is down 8.2, which one performed the best?

Bobbi Rebell:

Cash.

Kirk Chisholm:

It's still cash, right? And here's the framework you need to take away from this. It's not that cash is good or bad during inflation. It's that inflation affects every single asset class equally. So those math nerds out there, if something affects both sides of the equation equally, you can remove it. So when we look at returns, we don't look at inflation because it doesn't matter, what is the nominal return is really what matters because if cash is the best performer, and you're down 8.2%, that's still the best performer. Just because you have inflation doesn't mean you're going to make money. It just means it's the best of the bad options.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. So let's move on to the next investing half-truths. This one I totally buy into. You always have to be invested. Obviously later in life when you're taking money out of your savings, that's different. But for the most part, most of us when we're in the investing accumulation and growth stage, I've always been told, after you have your emergency fund, you need to be invested. The money should not be sitting in cash, to contrary of what we just talked about. Tell us about that. Why is that a half-truth?

Kirk Chisholm:

There's this theme of you always have to be invested. This has been around for decades. And the reason was if you look back in the '80s and the '90s and some of the 2000s, if you were always invested, the market would just go up. It's kind of this buy and hold kind of theme. Oh, you just be invested and it'll continue to go up. And I think what that does is it kind of dumbs down the aspect of investing that's really important, which is understanding what you're in. So if you just think the market's going up 7% or 8% a year because you're in the market, then you're going to be disappointed. So from 2000 to 2013, you basically lost money for 13 years and it was up and down. But January of 2000, till July of 2013, you would've lost 30 basis points a year during that time.

It wasn't until after July that actually you broke even. That's 13 years of lost time. So yeah, you could have been invested in the market but you wouldn't have made money from that start to point. Now, there was a ton of volatility, just like we're having now. And think of it this way. So from the peak of 2007 until the bottom of 2009, you lost about 58 and a half percent, if you were in the S&P 500, okay? That's not a small number. Now, think of you were in cash, how much did you lose? Zero. Right?

Bobbi Rebell:

Right.

Kirk Chisholm:

Now your cash just made you 100% return because you can buy twice as much of that S&P 500 shares as you could have year prior.

Bobbi Rebell:

Okay. But if we told everyone to just put all of your money in cash, for the majority of people, that would not work out well, because the truth is over time it has been proven that your money does increase more if it is invested, especially if it's diversified. One of your other half-truths that I'm obviously segueing into is that diversification manages risk. We've always been told be diversified. And I know many people think that investing in an index is diversification. That's not always true. It absolutely depends on how diversified that index is, right? Tell me why you feel this is a half-truth, that diversification manages risk.

Kirk Chisholm:

Yeah, and I want to address one quick point before we get into that which you mentioned, which is where do people invest? This is really hard. I'm giving you these mental models so that you can understand how the markets work. I'm not telling you to be in cash or stocks. I think that's important because if you're doing one thing and you never change your mind, then you're going to eventually be wrong even if you're right most times. So the whole diversification strategy that you mentioned, diversification, people have always looked at this, actually diversification started as an academic study. It was never intended for Wall Street, but what Wall Street realized is, "Hey, if we have diversification and it reduces risk, then we can sell more mutual funds." That's how this started. This wasn't like an academic proven positive thing that works all the time. It was a theory that people said, "Hey, this looks good enough to sell mutual funds to people."

Diversification actually does a really good job at reducing volatility. Now volatility is this up and down, you see any given day or week, it reduces volatility because in normal times it gives you a smoother ride. Some things go up, some things go down. But overall it's going to have a smoother ride in a direction you hope you're going. Now the problem is when it doesn't work. 2008, 2017, 2020, 2022, there's a difference between risk and volatility. Volatility is this up and down movement. Risk is what we call a permanent impairment of capital, which like 2008, dropping close to 60% is a permanent impairment of capital. Oddly enough, 2020 came back. So that technically would be volatility. But the point is no one wants to lose half their stuff. If you look at 2008, withstanding gold and cash, everything went down 58 and a half percent given a few percentage either way, but 2020 was the same thing.

Virtually everything went down the same. Which means diversification's not really protecting you. Diversification is volatility management. Risk management doesn't work because the markets have changed in the last 20 years. We're now big selloffs affect everything including bonds. So that's why you have to be aware. You can't just diversify and say, "I'll be okay." Because this year, stocks, bonds, everything was down similarly. So you really weren't protected by diversifying. So you just need to be aware of that aspect so that you're not blindly doing this and just saying, "Why did I lose so much money?" It's because it's not a good risk management tool. It's a good volatility management tool.

Bobbi Rebell:

So then what is a good risk management tool?

Kirk Chisholm:

This is where it gets into being hard. I try to think of simple frameworks to give people. The way I've kind of looked at it is you have to have a framework for risk management. Now everyone's different. Some people say, "If it goes down more than 5%, I'm out." But you have to have a more active mentality or you need to find tools like we use Options as a way to manage risk, because I can define the worst case scenario and say, "Nothing will be worse than this no matter what happens in the world." So I like Options as a tool for that, but it's not for everybody. So I'm not saying this is all in one tool for everybody, but you need to find a strategy that is acceptable to you. Now one strategy might be you invest in rental property and that's what you do for a living. You're really smart when it comes to real estate investing.

I have a lot of friends, they do this professionally and they'll always invest in real estate and they know how to manage that. And you're still getting your cash flow, you're still getting your returns, but you need to know what you're investing in. If you're going to be passive, then you need to expect the fact that we could have a period like the early 2000s or the '70s where your returns are lackluster for 10 years.

Bobbi Rebell:

But not everyone can be an expert on those things. Very often we have jobs that there's a reason that all of these investment management firms exist because we have to outsource it. I want to gets back to one half-truth before we run out of time. So an investing half-truth that fascinates me that you talk about is that you have to be invested in order to get the best 10 days. You don't want to miss the best 10 days. I'm not sure if I phrased that correctly, so feel free to correct me.

Kirk Chisholm:

Yeah. So when I started this industry in '99, a whole bunch of wholesalers would go through the office and they would give you all these charts and say, "Here's a chart, you can use this to sell our mutual funds." And it was just weird. But anyway, that's the culture of the broker dealer world. So there's one I kept seeing over and over and over again, is basically if you missed the 10 best days, your performance would be cut in half. Since 1980, if you're invested all the time, your $10,000 would've grown to $700,000. If you missed the 10 best days, it would've been only $341,000. Well that's significant. I should be invested all the time, right?

Bobbi Rebell:

Yeah.

Kirk Chisholm:

I mean, that's obvious.

Bobbi Rebell:

I'm buying in. Sure.

Kirk Chisholm:

However, if you missed the 10 best days, your performance was lackluster. If you were invested all the time, it was much better. However, if you missed the 10 worst days, you would've doubled the performance than if you had just been invested the whole time. So it's what I call of Wall Street half-truth, where they tell you what you need to know to buy their mutual fund or to buy their narrative. But if you actually look at the numbers, it's not completely true, because missing the 10 best days is incentivizing you to buy something and never sell it, which is Wall Street's preference. But if you were to miss the 10 worst days, which is why we focus on risk management, if you miss the 10 worst days, then you're much better off and you don't have periods of big losses, which is if you invested all the time, like we talked about, you could be down 60% in your portfolio.

That is historically okay, that happens. It's not all the time, but it happens. So you just need to look at the full picture. So the half-truths are about showing you the difference between this little piece over here and the whole rest of the picture, which if you understood, you'd say, "Okay, I can make better decisions now because I understand the scope of what's going on."

Bobbi Rebell:

All right, so what's your best advice heading into 2023 for the average investor? Who is not able to time the market, to miss the worst 10 days and to get the best 10 days, because that's just not realistic for most of us.

Kirk Chisholm:

You should start thinking about your portfolio differently. For example, interest rates have been zero for a very long time, except for now. Now you can get three-month treasuries, which are virtually, if you can't say guaranteed about anything, that's as close as you can get to give you a guarantee of safety. So you can get 4% in change on three-month treasuries, which is great. 4% compared to losing 20%, 30% is pretty nice. So I wouldn't say go all in on bonds, but if you're going to have fixed income in your portfolio, you should look at short-term bonds, three months, maybe even six months at the most. But interest rates are going to keep going up for at least the next six months. So you shouldn't go out too far. But if you can lock in 4%, 5% on a bond for three to six months, I think you're in good shape. Savings bonds are phenomenal. You could get 9.6% I think as of October, now it's, I think 6.8. That's a pretty good yield. Now it's only $10,000 per year per person, but that's still a really good rate.

Bobbi Rebell:

A little more with your tax return if you can, if you get a tax refund.

Kirk Chisholm:

Right. So that's something anybody could do and that's like a no-brainer approach. You're getting a good yield, almost no risk. So it's a good approach. But outside of that, I would just say learn as much as you can and think about valuations. If you look back in the '70s, valuations got so cheap that it was blatantly obvious that it was a good time to buy. It didn't matter if it went up or down from there. It was just things like Warren Buffett made all his money. His best returns were in the late '70s and early '80s because it was just so cheap that things were, you could have just thrown a dart at a board and you could have made money. Right now, it is so expensive that things are more expensive now than they were prior to COVID, and then they were expensive. People were talking about how expensive it was prior to COVID and we're still above those.

So the fact that we've gone down 20% to 30% on the markets, we're not even close to where we should be. So be very careful about your investments. Don't feel like you need to be all in. Don't be afraid to be in cash. Just be more conservative with your investments than you think you should be. Because the one rule that if you take nothing away from this, you should take this away. In a bull market, the idea is to make money. In a bear market, the idea is not to make money. The winner of a bear market is the one who loses the least. Now you might think about that, you think you're crazy, but we're in a bear market. Markets have all been down this year. The one who lost the least is cash. And the cash has still lost 8% into inflation, which means it's still down, but it's lost the least.

So don't think about it as, "I need to make 7% this year." Because you could lose a lot of money. Think about it as, "How can I protect myself? What can I do to be more conservative and lose the least until things change?" And if you want to know when things are going to change, I'll give you an easy framework. Watch the Fed. If they start reducing rates, then you can get a green light to start investing. If as long as they're raising rates, you should keep your foot on the brake, not on the gas.

Bobbi Rebell:

All right, thank you so much Kirk. Where can people find out more about you and be in touch?

Yeah, I'm pretty easy to find. You can find me on Money Tree Investing podcast. It's moneytreepodcast.com is the website. Also, you can find me at innovativewealth.com. That's our website and you can pretty much find me everywhere. I'm pretty easy to find.

Bobbi Rebell:

I know the holidays are a time we're all supposed to get excited about, but sometimes it just feels like I can't celebrate until I get through my never-ending to-do list. That includes gifts. It's exhausting. I mean, I love the smile on people's faces when I get them something that's going to be meaningful and that they love. But the truth is it's also really hard and I'm really getting tired of giving people the same old, same old. I mean, I feel like we're finally emerging from this pandemic and I just want something that will get them to smile. So my team and I have been working really hard to up the ante over at Grownup Gear with some super fun new stuff. My personal favorite, the baby bibs and the onesies with phrases like, I can't believe you are the grownup either, and new colors and designs of our top selling generosity line. And for the holidays, if you spend just $50 on any of the items from our generosity collection, we will gift you a $10 gift certificate that you can spend on something to be generous too, well yourself. Just use code holiday, H-O-L-I-D-A-Y. And thanks again to everyone supporting Grownup Gear. Your business helps small projects like this podcast, which remain free for all of you. Happy holidays guys.

So if you follow me on Instagram or on TikTok, you're going to see some of the video clips where I will look very confused and honestly kind of skeptical. I was. I try to be open-minded with what my guests are saying because there's so much that we can learn from them. And by the way, Kirk is a very smart guy. He made his arguments very well. A lot of what Kirk says makes sense. Maybe I'm just stuck in the things that I take for granted. And I like that he has me questioning them. On the other hand, when he talks about the market going down for years and how it would absolutely be better to have been in cash for those years, of course, so we can buy more at a lower price, of course, sure, but I'm just not smart enough or good enough or whatever, and maybe I don't pay the right people who are smart enough, but I can't identify those years.

And so I'm kind of lost, because someone like me, and many of you I suspect, kind of have to default to being in the market in the bad years so that we can be in the market when the good years come along. That said, I love a good discussion and I totally appreciate Kirk's viewpoints. Hopefully my conversation with Kirk got all of you at least questioning the things that we take for granted, which is something we should always be doing.

If you are not already, please go to my website, which is just my name, bobbirebell.com, or go to the show notes and sign up for my newsletter where I share more useful information for financial grownups and of course DM me. Let me know what you thought about this, and every episode. I am @bobbirebell1 on Instagram, and Bobbi Rebell pretty much everywhere else. And of course, also, if you can, please as a little holiday gift to me, consider writing a review of the Money Tips for Financial Grownups podcast on Apple Podcast. Or if you listen on any other platform that has space for reviews, means a lot to me. And by the way, definitely send me a screen grab of it if you do so. So I can thank you. I also want to thank Kirk Chisholm for helping us all be financial grownups.

Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC. Editing and production by Steve Stewart. Guest coordination, content creation, social media support, and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes, which include links to resources mentioned in the show, as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media, @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse, where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club. Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you.

You can also leave a review on Apple Podcast. Reading each one means the world to me. And you know what? It really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time, and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.

 

 
Advice, Financial Grownup, Investing, Money, Personal Finance, PodcastsBobbi Rebell KaufmanTemplate, investing tips, stocks, stock market