Talking money with friends and family without the awkwardness featuring Sandi Bragar and Cammie Doder of Aspiriant
Episode Description: The hosts of the Money Tales podcast share strategies to tackle taboo money topics with family and friends.
Video Highlight: Cammie speaks about embarassment when talking about money.
Cammie’s Bio:Cammie joined Aspiriant in 2005, originally responsible for sales and marketing. In 2016, she was chosen to take the firm’s marketing direction to a higher level and lead a team of professionals on a variety of initiatives.
Cammie is a marketer at heart, working in a client-centric, fiduciary-focused firm, which means the she is a listener, educator and advocate, first and foremost. Cammie is passionate about empowering our current and prospective clients by helping them navigate the murky waters of the industry to make informed decisions about their financial lives. As the Chief Marketing Officer and a partner of Aspiriant, Cammie works to ensure consistency across the Aspiriant brand, highlighting the warmth, passion and forward-thinking approach we bring to wealth management. Her role spans across branding, digital, content, client experience, inbound marketing, automation and messaging. Cammie believes the Aspiriant secret needs to be shared with more people and looks to connect with the next client whose goals we can help them achieve. Cammie earned a B.S. degree in Business from the University of Southern California and an M.B.A. from The Anderson School at University of California-Los Angeles. Outside the office, Cammie spends time with her husband and two daughters. They are either enjoying their local environs or visiting family in Southern California, on the East Coast or in Ireland.
Sandi’s Bio: Sandi is the Chief Client Officer at Aspiriant and leads our Planning, Strategy & Research team. The group is responsible for our state-of-the-art wealth planning platform that fosters intimate client relationships and helps families navigate the complex facets of their financial lives. Sandi also co-hosts our Money Tales podcast. Sandi joined Aspiriant in 1999 and became a partner of the firm in 2002. Sandi began her professional career in 1993 at Ernst & Young, where she spent two and a half years as a senior tax consultant in the firm’s Personal Financial Counseling practice. Sandi is a member of the Financial Planning Association and serves as a mentor in the Financial Planning Association’s Residency Program. She is also an active member of the Purposeful Planning Institute and chairs the Vision Expedition that is planning the organization’s annual Rendezvous conference. Sandi has been frequently quoted in the media, including CNBC, Bloomberg TV and Radio, Fox Business News, Yahoo! Finance, The Wall Street Journal, and the San Francisco Chronicle. Among other accolades, Sandi has been named one of Forbes America’s Top Women Advisors and Best-In-State Wealth Advisors in 2021. Sandi holds a B.A. degree in Business Economics from the University of California-Santa Barbara. She earned her Certified Public Accountant credential in 1996 and her Certified Financial Planner™ credential in 1999. Sandi is Treasurer of the Jewish Community Relations Council of San Francisco. She also serves on the Investment Committee of Kiddo!, the Mill Valley Schools Community Foundation.
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Full Transcript:
Bobbi Rebell:
Money conversations come up all the time without us really being ready- and we muddle through them. But if we can get some thoughtful and intentional ideas under our belt ahead of time, we can make the conversations much more productive when it does happen. That’s just some of the great advice you will get from this week’s guests. But first- this week’s quote comes from my friend Jean Chatzky: Quote
” The only way to get comfortable talking about money is to talk about it more often”
Jean is the founder and CEO of Her money and the host of the podcast by the same name. Now to our guests:
Sandi Bragar and Cammie Doder of Aspiriant. Cammie is Chief Marketing Officer where her role spans across branding, digital, content, client experience, inbound marketing, automation and messaging. Sandi is the Chief Client Officer at Aspiriant and leads our Planning, Strategy & Research team. Together they host the very popular Money Tales podcast where they often get into it on some very taboo money topics- which is kinda why I had to have them on this podcast.
Here are Sandi Bragar and Cammie Doder of Aspiriant:
Sandy Bragar and Cammie Doder of Aspirant. I hope I said that correctly. Welcome, you are both financial grownups.
Sandi Bragar:
We like to think we are.
Bobbi Rebell:
You absolutely are. We're going to be talking about money conversations that are intentional. Before I get into your tips on that, tell me what that means to you. What does it mean to have an intentional money conversation?
Sandi Bragar:
Bobbi, money conversations come up all the time in our day-to-day lives without us even thinking and realizing that they're money conversations. And because they're just sort of coming up, if we go through the motion of our day-to-day life, we're not really thinking about the conversation, we're not determining in advance what we want to communicate, what we wanna get out of the conversation. So coming into the money conversations with intention is the exact opposite. It's premeditating. It's really... being thoughtful about what it is that you want to cover, what are you trying to learn, what do you want to express, what conclusion do you want, or are you driving toward an action item? Having all of that in mind can make the money conversation much more productive.
Cammie Doder:
And having fun with it. I think there's a having it front of mind and present and something you're committed to. There's a commitment. I think about you know, being wellness is about making that commitment and having that intention as part of it.
Bobbi Rebell:
So we want to communicate effectively about money with the people that we care most about in life. So let's start with our friends and family. What are your strategies when we want to have intentional conversations? Because it can be so awkward to even start the conversation. Is this something we should plan in advance? Or is it something we should kind of look for the opening in the moment?
Sandi Bragar:
a great question. I think you can go in either direction and be ready to play both sides of that coin. When you want to make sure that you're having a conversation when you're really diving into it with Intention Bobbi, we do recommend that people give some thought to how to open the conversation. And there's many different ways to do it. A common one could be, hey, I was listening to this great podcast and they were talking about Topic A or Topic B, what do you think of that? That's a really great launching point, or I read an article, or I saw something on television, or heard something on the news. Those are easy, comfortable ways to ease into a conversation, or just bringing curiosity about something that you've been thinking about and asking the other person how they're wondering about it. But certainly there are windows of opportunities to jump in, and Cammie, do you wanna chat about that?
Cammie Doder:
Yeah, so there's also the idea like you, you know, ask for permission to, hey, I'd love to ask, have this conversation. So you asked to start with permission. There's also something Sandy and I do on Money Tales, the podcast we co host is start from the beginning, which is sometimes really easy. Tell us when you were growing up, how was money handled in your home? Or tell me a story, when did money have meaning to you? You know, and you can start for me. I remember swimming in the community pool and people off the diving board, money fell out of their pockets. And if you got that money, you could go buy an ice cream. Money had meaning. It got me that ice cream. So telling those stories, it could really just warm up and it's, it's then you show how, how easy and comfortable and how money is part of life.
Bobbi Rebell:
And that's important because it also opens the door for multi-generational conversations, which can be really the most awkward, especially for children who want to have a better sense of their parents' financial goals and maybe in some cases financial means. What's going on? It's important to have that information because we don't know how life Will evolve.
Sandi Bragar:
Those are some of my most favorite conversations, not only in my own family, but in the work that we do with clients at Experient. And I think when it comes to multi-generational conversations, it's helpful to provide some context to the conversation. What are the boundaries? What are we talking about? Is it information that we want to keep private and just keep within the family, or are these things that we're welcome to share and talk to with people outside of our family? Having those established ground rules up front. can be really helpful. And then also inviting in that curiosity of what's on your mind, what would you like to learn? And being mindful of the ages and the experience level of the different family members in the room, making sure that you're really communicating in a way that makes sense to them. We were in a podcast conversation recently where someone was telling us that They heard their parents talking about money all the time growing up, but they had no idea what their parents were really saying. And what a missed opportunity in that family to check in. And if you're talking about money in front of the next generation, you should be doing that because you want them to learn from it. And so checking in, seeing what questions that they have, asking them for their biggest takeaways from the conversation, getting their points of view and perspectives, all of that helps make the conversations between multiple generations flow a lot more smoothly. and more productively.
Cammie Doder:
I like that Sandi talked about making it a conversation. So it isn't just the senior generation espousing their wisdom. It's hearing from the rising generation, hearing their perspectives, how do they engage with money, and hearing their stories. I think that's really important.
Bobbi Rebell:
Another thing I know that you are very focused on is education and how that can be integrated into the intentional conversations about money. So what do you recommend people do if, for example, they want to learn more about money in the context of being able to then bring it up and expand their relationships with their friends and family and make everyone more comfortable?
Cammie Doder:
I'll start and say, you know, Sandy hit on it already, but learning is everywhere, so first chip away at it. So don't feel like I have to know everything all at once and, you know, drinking from the fire hose. So find areas that you are interested and find resources where they're enjoyable. So podcasting is a great example where you can hear stories and you can learn in a lot of different methods. Or a book, if someone's a book learner, pick up a book, start small. and then share your knowledge with others, I do find that if I can explain it to someone else, I'm really understanding the concept. So the idea is in financial concepts, we hear a lot of embarrassment, I should know more. And something we talk a lot about is, why is that? Why do people feel in no other area of their lives do they have to know everything, but something about money, we have to know everything. And so really reminding ourselves that You're just learning, you're just growing, have a growth mindset, find areas you're interested in, and find resources that you enjoy. Don't make it something that's not enjoyable.
Bobbi Rebell:
If you hear, as you mentioned, these conversations where maybe members of your family or your friends are having a conversation about money, how do you, without it being awkward, get in there and learn more? You don't want them to feel like you're nosy. You don't want the parents to feel like you maybe have malicious intention of some sort. It's uncomfortable.
Sandi Bragar:
It can be, but the magic all happens by the outside of that comfort zone. So we encourage people to get in there and ask questions. You don't have to have all the big conversations at once. You can ease into them. Kamie mentioned some of that before. You can start slow, keep coming back to a topic. But if you're hearing someone in the next room over or someone else in the room that you're in talking about something that's of interest to you, just like any other topic, you could just jump in and say, wow, that's really fascinating. I've been thinking about that too. Here's what I'm wondering or Tell me, how did you decide how much money you're gonna contribute to your 401k when you're otherwise trying to save money for a home? I've been wrestling with that myself. So it's really, I think, having that curiosity and coming into the conversation with a growth mindset of wanting to learn and understand, as opposed to having maybe some concerns that you should know more than you know, or the people that you're... you're in conversation with have it all figured out because most of us don't. Most people act like they know everything about money. But to Cammie's point earlier, there's a lot in our society that we're not teaching about, we're not talking about. So a lot of people come into money decisions and money conversations ill-prepared and that's okay. Let's use those opportunities as ways to lift ourselves up and lift each other up and get better at these things.
Cammie Doder:
You know what I'm also finding is that as I'm getting better and more comfortable about having many conversations, when I do bring it up, let's say with a friend on a hike, there quite often it's not this scary, oh gosh, should I have brought this up? It's people love it. It's almost an open door. Like, oh, great question. I've always wondered that too. How do you think about it? And it becomes this just wonderful, rich, unfolding conversation.
Sandi Bragar:
And to add to that, one of the things that we found not only in our Money Tales conversations, but in conversations with clients, when you do create that safe space for these open money conversations, it can bring intimacy and closeness unlike many other topics. So it can be sort of addicting in a way because you just want to get in there and learn more. And once you open that door, it's easy to just stay in that room and keep talking.
Bobbi Rebell:
I love that because a lot of the time we, it's not even on purpose, but we realize we're hiding so much from those closest to us who would be the most supportive. But once we break down those barriers, we do find so much support and we often find that they are having a similar experience or certainly can relate to it and be helpful to it. And it can provide relief just there. We can, you know, we can, it is a form of financial wellness to just have that support around you of people that sort of get it and maybe will be more sensitive to what's going on with you.
Sandi Bragar:
That’s exactly right. And I think the more often you're in these conversations and you understand what is most productive, that's when you can start modeling it too. If you're in a situation where you have rising generations of the family around you, you can become much more intentional in what you're talking about, how you're talking about it, and create a much more useful and healthy and relationship with money.
Bobbi Rebell:
And I think that these are such important conversations to have, ideally, they listen to this, they take your advice, and people can open the door and get past those awkward moments and to that much more comfortable conversation. But sometimes it does make sense to have a professional involved or a third party. Tell me about that and how that can. sort of, I don't know if accelerate is the right word, but sort of make things a little bit easier by having somebody in there. I mean, sometimes people say it's easier to talk to a stranger about your problems than to those closest to you. And its kind of true.
Sandi Bragar:
you know, there are a great many number of really useful money coaches at Aspiriant. We will recommend that clients sit down with money coaches and in wealth dynamic coaches. to help talk through some of these things, especially in the case of couples where they might be coming from different situations, have different perspectives around money, have different relationships. As a quick example, there's a client that I'm working with who is getting engaged to be married and she wants to enter into a prenuptial agreement with her fiancé and they're coming at this conversation from very different perspectives. He comes from a family that doesn't have as many resources as hers. And so he said, let's introduce you to someone who can really invite a warm, welcoming conversation to help you get on the same page, really explore each of your individual values, your joint values and your perspectives around money to make these conversations about a prenuptial agreement much more, I'll just use that word again, productive and allowing you to achieve the goals rather than something that could be. potentially turn into a destructive conversation.
Cammie Doder:
I think this this role of an outside advisor does help keep it keep things fluid, have the conversation be focused on what the needs are with the couple. I mean, this is Sandy shared a pre nut, but I think about our clients in a wealth management relationship. We can we can push clients when we know this is a topic we really need to dig deeper or they need to uncover. It's like any good coach. They understand your weaknesses. They know where to push, how to encourage, how to entice. And I think that's how we should consider why that's really invaluable. You only get to a certain level when you try and do everything by yourself. And sometimes that's great and that's all you need. But when you wanna get to that next level, having an advisor or a coach. that's really critical to do so.
Sandi Bragar:
That's right, that person is very objective about your money and your situation, whereas you are very subjective. So that can be a very powerful force in helping you move forward.
Bobbi Rebell:
Exactly. We can all have the best intentions to have these conversations, but we're all human, and we all have sometimes these protections in our relationships, and we don't want to push people the wrong way. And sometimes it's just easier if a third party comes in and says, we really do need to talk about this topic, and to some degree pushes everyone, but to get to a better place. Before we wrap up, I want to give you, Sandi and Cammie, an opportunity to just tell everyone a little bit about Money Tales, your amazing podcast, which I was fortunate enough to be a guest on, and about your business.
Cammie Doder:
Thanks, Bobbi. You know, I'll start with money tales. Uh, this podcast is coming from our business at Aspiriant. We talk to clients about money every day, but what is quite apparent is, and it's really special part. It's a trusting relationship and conversation, but clients would tell us, you know, gosh, we're so thankful. We can talk to you about it. Cause we don't have anybody else to talk about money. So money tells the podcast was intended to. bring to life that we couldn't have this this taboo topic around money doesn't need to be there. And so let's demonstrate and thank you, Bobby, for joining us. Let's demonstrate how to have productive money conversations. And that's really so important.
Sandi Bragar:
would just say that I'm one of those people who has the absolute luxury of practicing her dream career. It's really fun for me to help people make really good financial decisions and creating a safe space to open up these money conversations is a big part of being able to help people understand what's most important to them and what they're trying to achieve with their wealth. So It is a joy to be able to do that. And for anyone out there who is hesitant about these conversations, I really would just recommend that you jump in and give it a shot, get out of that comfort zone. Try a conversation, keep doing it, approach it with curiosity. And I am sure that your world will change and for the better.
Bobbi Rebell:
Thank you both so much for joining me.
Sandi & Cammie:
Thanks for having us Bobbi.
Bobbi Rebell:
Get out of your comfort zone and have some uncomfortable conversations- just one of the many amazing takeaways from Aspiriant’s Sandi and Cammi. This week’s extra credit is the watch the George Clooney film The Descendants. It is full of uncomfortable family money conversations. In short, Clooney plays a wealthy Hawaiian lawyer who has to deal with his family’s financial issues after his wife is left in a coma after a boating accident - and the plot twists that I won’t reveal make it more awkward than you can ever imagine. I’d love to hear how you handle awkward money conversations- DM me at bobbirebell1 on instagram and be sure to subscribe to my free newsletter for more tips on being a financial grownup- super easy- bobbirebell.substack.com or get the link in the shownotes. All on my website- bobbirebell.co
Check out the Money Tales podcast - and big thanks to Sandi Bragar and Cammie Doder of Aspiriant for helping us all be financial grownups and invest in peace of mind.